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114:19 -!- vikingman [smuxi@ChatSpikefj1cq4.ip-158-69-200.net] has joined #inspircd
214:20 <vikingman> hi guys
315:39 <vikingman> someone have any idea how i can make a serviceless server
415:40 <vikingman> using only the ircd to manage user access and reop people when they join a channel
515:40 <vikingman> i know i could use sql auth modules
615:41 <vikingman> but what im looking is to give people they access back when they come back 
715:42 <genius3000> The autoop module should do that. You basically set a "ban" mask to whatever status mode you want to give them on join.
815:43 <vikingman> ok
915:43 <vikingman> but can it act as a replacement for chanserv and nickserv
1015:43 <vikingman> because this is what we are looking for
1115:43 <Sheogorath> not like a real replacement
1215:44 <genius3000> It's the closest you're gonna get, for channel-wise.
1315:44 <vikingman> because we dont like how irc services work with a separate "server" for the services
1415:44 <Sheogorath> I mean when there would be a complete replacement for services built in, why would we use services then?
1515:45 <genius3000> I don't get your reasoning, but that's your call.
1615:45 <vikingman> what i have in mind
1715:45 <vikingman> its when you connect on a server
1815:45 <vikingman> if you are registered it ask you for the password
1915:46 <vikingman> "only for example"
2015:46 <vikingman> when a user is logged in 
2115:46 <vikingman> if the user had been set +o on a channel
2215:46 <vikingman> he gain it back 
2315:47 <Sheogorath> you are very precisely describing the basic intention behind services :D
2415:47 <vikingman> i know
2515:47 <genius3000> lol
2615:47 <Sheogorath> +at
2715:47 <vikingman> but i want to get rid of classic services style
2815:47 <vikingman> and only rely on the ircd maybe with modules 
2915:47 <Sheogorath> well, go ahead, write a module :D
3015:48 <genius3000> ^ yep
3115:48 <vikingman> any docs somewere ?
3215:48 <Sheogorath> iirc there was already an attempt to do this :D
3315:48 <Sheogorath> which was never finished
3415:48 <Sheogorath> what kind of docs are you searching for?
3515:48 <Sheogorath> API docs?
3615:48 <vikingman> thats why i ask before if someone already done it 
3715:49 <vikingman> general docs to help create a module ?
3815:49 <Sheogorath> well, for modules in general there is no real documentation besides the modules themselves
3915:49 <Sheogorath> for 2.0 API docs go here: http://www.inspircd.org/api/2.0/
4015:49 <Sheogorath> for 3.0 API docs you have to run doxygen yourself
4115:50 <vikingman> ok
4215:50 <vikingman> whats new in 3.0
4315:51 <Sheogorath> https://github.com/inspircd/inspircd/compare/insp20...master <-- this
4415:51 <Sheogorath> basically 3 years of refactoring + tons of ircv3 stuff
4515:51 <vikingman> ok
4615:52 <Cronus> vikingman this is literally the purpose of services, who cares if its a seperate "server"  thats how irc has been for many, many years
4715:53 <Cronus> i'm interested in hearing a compelling reason to not use services
4815:54 <vikingman> the problem with the current way of doing this 
4915:54 <vikingman> is if you loose contact with the services 
5015:55 <vikingman> like a netsplit 
5115:55 <vikingman> you cannot use the said services 
5215:55 <vikingman> during the split
5315:56 <Koragg> what if you host ircd + services on the same server? the odds of netsplits are rather small then
5415:56 <Sheogorath> so if you want have a look at the broken module that were build during insp21: https://github.com/inspircd/inspircd/tree/obsolete/insp21/src/modules
5515:56 <Sheogorath> *modules
5615:57 <Brain> <vikingman> because we dont like how irc services work with a separate "server" for the services
5715:57 <Brain> most people here probably dont remember, but back in 2007 i was working on something like this
5815:57 <vikingman> i know brain
5915:57 <Brain> so was w00t iirc... the idea was to have an m_services_core and then m_services_nickserv etc
6015:57 <Brain> nothing came of it though
6115:57 <vikingman> back in 2007 i was following inspircd more closely
6215:57 <Sheogorath> Sorry brain for calling it broken :D
6315:57 <Brain> nah this was before insp 2.1
6415:57 <vikingman> translated the old wiki
6515:57 <Brain> way before
6615:58 <Sheogorath> Oh I see
6715:58 <Brain> closer to 1.1
6815:58 <Brain> maybe 1.2
6915:58 <Brain> i stopped contributing late 1.2
7015:59 <Brain> its always great to pop back here and see the project still alive and popular like 8 years after i stopped contributing
7116:00 <vikingman> roughly what i want to do is to be able to simply get users acces on the ircd side and duplicated on each leafs
7216:00 <Brain> Sheogorath: btw, i met your namesake yesterday. he gave me a staff that turns people into chickens.
7316:00 <Sheogorath> Good old Wabbajack :)
7416:00 <Brain> and fountains of coins
7516:00 <Brain> :D
7616:01 <Brain> im waiting to use it on a dragon priest :D
7716:01 <Koragg> a question of my own, can the IRCd also set oper only channel modes on newly created channels like +P?
7816:01 <ctcp> I never seen services netsplit
7916:01 <Brain> yes iirc theres config options for that
8016:01 <Brain> ive seen services netsplit.... when i take it down :P
8116:01 <ctcp> So that cant be the reason
8216:01 <Koragg> ctcp you have not seen me breakin them -.- (with a third party module so half my fault)
8316:01 <Brain> generally services link over localhost, there isnt any latency, nor a remote connection to be lost
8416:01 <Sheogorath> Koragg, yes, you can put them as default modes
8516:02 <vikingman> i know that 
8616:02 <Brain> its essentially the same as connecting over a unix socket
8716:02 <Koragg> Thank You then I might have an unusual idea to solving this issue perhaps so long you can assume that the user is somehow recognizable all the time
8816:02 <Sheogorath> https://github.com/inspircd/inspircd/blob/fdeccd7dd366ebac516ed66841fbf7f0952d8ed2/docs/conf/inspircd.conf.example#L608-L610
8916:02 <Brain> its actually better for services to be a separate program, because if theres a bug in one it doesnt take down both, they can be run under separate user accounts enhancing security, etc
9016:02 <ctcp> Lol koragg
9116:03 <Koragg> set +P on all channels and use m_chanprotect set noservices to yes and have people add themselves to the auto op list with q and o access
9216:03 <Brain> vikingman: i think for what you want you'd end up modifying sql authentication
9316:03 <Koragg> that way whenever they return they get +qo set by the ircd and +P makes it so the channel modes are kept (like autoop)
9416:03 <vikingman> Brain: thats what i was thinking of
9516:03 <Koragg> might be just mad enough to actually work
9616:04 <vikingman> because i want 3 thing
9716:04 <Brain> you could tie sql to SASL for authentication of user accounts, and a simple sql database with a channels and nicknames table, and an access table
9816:04 <Brain> but iirc such a thing doesnt exist... yet
9916:04 <vikingman> be able to create account with a web form
10016:04 <w00t> Brain: I actually went a fair way with it even back then..
10116:04 <w00t> no idea where the code all went
10216:04 <Brain> HAI W00T FREN
10316:04 <Brain> :D
10416:04 <vikingman> on the connect if the user is registered it ask for password or use some way to auth and connect
10516:04 <w00t> hai
10616:04 <Brain> w00t, it was on svn.virotek.net iirc
10716:05 <Brain> vikingman: SASL is the way to go for that
10816:05 <vikingman> and 3 just give people the mode they had when they leaves
10916:05 <Brain> like atheme uses
11016:05 <w00t> yeah but that died like.. waay long ago
11116:05 <w00t> I thought I had everything from it, but perhaps not
11216:05 <Brain> it uses CAP and some other tricks to authenticate securely using either username/password, certificate fingerprint or other type of auth
11316:06 <Brain> if it was ever on svn.inspircd.org, i have all of that on my stash
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11516:06 <Brain> <vikingman> because we dont like how irc services work with a separate "server" for the services
11616:06 <Brain> hmm didnt paste
11716:07 <vikingman> lolll
11816:07 <Brain> https://brainbox.cc/stash/projects/INSP/repos/inspircd-services/browse
11916:07 <Koragg> don't you mean it did not copy? :P
12016:07 <Brain> w00t ^^
12116:07 <w00t> oh hey
12216:07 <w00t> that isn't the one I am thinking of, but it's yet another one \o/
12316:08 <Brain> w0w this is old, like 1.0 old
12416:08 <w00t> Brain: i assume you knew of https://github.com/inspircd/inspircd-archive :)
12516:08 <Brain> yeah
12616:09 <Brain> my stash pre-dates it, and is a direct conversion of my svn repo, which itself was a direct conversion of the cvs
12716:09 <w00t> not sure you were using version control for those releases
12816:10 <vikingman> thanks i will look what i can do with those information
12916:10 <Brain> yeah i didnt start using cvs until some of the 1.0 alphas
13016:11 <Brain> but i think when i built this i merged in those, lets see what the earliest version on there is
13116:12 <Brain> 23rd jan 2003, "initial revision"
13216:12 <Brain> 3c7e07fb5f3
13316:12 <w00t> same date as the github repo, as it was a direct import from SVN too, just not with any of the other top level directories -- which is why the hashes will differ
13416:12 <Brain> 1.0 alpha 9
13516:13 <Brain> im not sure theres a way to reverse import the 1.0 alphas to the start of the history
13616:13 <Brain> i remember converting the svn to git on my server here at home took over a week of 100% cpu use
13716:13 <w00t> not without pissing the world off
13816:13 <Brain> because there were like 20,000 commits
13916:13 <Robby> oh hi Brain, now that I see you here, would it be possible for you to get Sadie's ssh access back on the wiki box? he lost access when it was moved behind cloudflare because we don't know the real ip :p
14016:13 <Brain> w00t, i could do that without pissing anyone off on this local copy
14116:13 <w00t> well yes ;)
14216:14 <Brain> but its wether or not its even doable
14316:14 <Robby> I'm asking in his place now since this came up a few times and you guys might miss eachother again, timezones and all
14416:14 <Brain> i dont ever plan to commit to this copy of the insp repo, its my historical copy for CVs etc
14516:14 <w00t> it would be with a bit of massaging
14616:14 <Brain> i still never really embraced github though, came to like stash/local bitbucket server more
14716:15 <Brain> i dont really like any of the cloud based git services, not sure what it is
14816:15 <fraggeln> Brain: hehe, I know the feeling, I host my own gitlab :)
14916:15 <Brain> 10 years later, still have a sour taste in my mouth over sourceforge that nobody said would ever go rouge
15016:15 <Brain> rogue*
15116:16 <Brain> i think thats why i dont trust cloud repos
15216:16 <vikingman> Brain: i know that feeling
15316:16 <Brain> i also have a lot of non-opensource code in my repo that i dont want to have to pay to store
15416:16 <vikingman> i use my home git server for the same reason
15516:16 <Brain> gamedev stuff etc
15616:17 <Sheogorath> why cloud hosting when you have mailinglists ;)
15716:17 <Brain> https://brainbox.cc/stash/projects/ <-- loads of other interesting stuff in there though, some of it dating back as far as 1994
15816:17 <Koragg> that is older than I am o.o
15916:17 <Brain> yup lol
16016:18 <Brain> https://brainbox.cc/stash/projects/CP2/repos/cryptpaint2/browse
16116:18 <Brain> earliest project on there, i wrote that when i was 13
16216:18 <Brain> there wasnt such thing as version control available to me back then though or even internet
16316:19 <Brain> i found a copy of my own program decades later on a public domain internet archive, extracted the source code from it (its BBC BASIC) and committed it to stash :D
16416:19 <fraggeln> Brain: you should look at gitlab ;)
16516:19 <w00t> Brain: i just chuck them up there. it's distributed, so I have copies elsewhere, these just make a nice place to have an additional (easily found) copy
16616:20  * fraggeln fluffes majic 
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16816:41 <Cronus> vikingman services splitting from your ircd is non existant
16916:42 <vikingman>  this was only an example
17016:42 <vikingman> but services need to be linked to a server 
17116:42 <Cronus> poor example then ;p
17216:42 <vikingman> and the link to this server can be break
17316:42 <Cronus> negative
17416:42 <vikingman> for what ever the reason 
17516:42 <Cronus> i've never had a connection over localhost break
17616:42 <vikingman> not local
17716:42 <vikingman> distant
17816:42 <vikingman> like this
17916:43 <Cronus> you have 0 reason to not put services and ircd on the same server
18016:43 <vikingman> services -> hub -> leaves 
18116:43 <Cronus> also think about freenode, quakenet , all the others, they dont have an issue with this
18216:43 <Cronus> while your thoughts are legit,  the practiality is not there
18316:43 <vikingman> its not because all the big name do this thats its the only way to do it
18416:43 <Cronus> like you're overthinking and over enginerring etc
18516:44 <Cronus> i mean thats not my reason for mentioning, im saying if the big ones dont have issues, you shouldnt
18616:44 <Cronus> but honestly this is currently the "only" way of doing it lol
18716:44 <Cronus> else you wouldnt be looking at writing code now would you? :P
18816:44 <vikingman> if you had an other choice ?
18916:45 <Cronus> can you elaborate on that?
19016:45 <vikingman> im not saying this 
19116:45 <vikingman> but im looking how to do it 
19216:45 <vikingman> ;)
19316:45 <Cronus> good luck on that
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19516:45 <vikingman> irc should not rely on only one servers hosting services 
19616:46 <Cronus> thats how its been for 20+ years /shrugs
19716:46 <vikingman> yeah i know
19816:46 <Cronus> i've been doing it myself for 10 years, and i havent had an instance where services was unavaliable
19916:46 <vikingman> im hosting servers since 2006 
20016:46 <vikingman> its not the only reason 
20116:46 <Cronus> "servers" very vague
20216:47 <vikingman> services software if you prefer
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20516:51 <vikingman> but also its this way for 20+ years maybe because no one ever try an other way of doing this
20616:51 <vikingman> *completed not try 
20716:58 <Brain> <Cronus> thats how its been for 20+ years /shrugs
20816:58 <Brain> ^^ that exact statement made me create inspircd...
20916:58 <Cronus> and then you abandon us ;(
21016:58 <Cronus> vikingman the amount of work it will take is mostly what im talking about here.  You arent gonna do this, this year
21116:59 <Brain> there would be advantages to a services package that is part of the ircd, and disadvantages
21216:59 <Cronus> unless you really like coding all night...
21316:59 <Brain> in the old days, there was a windows ircd called ircplus that had such a thing
21416:59 <Koragg> ratbox already has that though so it seems possible
21516:59 <Brain> i dont think that exists any more
21616:59 <Koragg> or does that also run as a seperate pseudo server on localhost?
21716:59 <Brain> separate pseudo server, Koragg iirc
21816:59 <Koragg> ahhh thanks
21916:59 <Brain> same as chanfix and friends
22017:00 <Brain> speaking of which, i havent been to ircnet for years
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