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1
2Raynecloud (Ellie) - Today at 12:05 AM
3I, am ok with callidus touching on trans issues, but I feel that they'd be far less a problem in the shaowrun universe in 2075, as it seems to me like catalyst has tried very hard to move away from a lot of that. Plan9 switches genders quite often.
4It, makes me mildly uncomfortable, but that discomfort is really on me and shouldn't be cause to stop someone from doing something.
5Also, how are people going to tell @SilithDark (Cara) she can't play a character that is sexist/biased against men? That's not something you have any control over...like, at all. That's a level of heavy handedness that's a bit to much. We have prime characters in the lore that are racist, hate technomancers, and some of the jackpointers are even biased towards age and gender.
6Let's also not forget the night of rage in 2039 and the great dragon sirrurg who knocked an airliner out of the sky because of the night of rage, which, was still only 38 years ago in world. The shattergraves are still present where the tower fell in seattle. This is the kind of stuff people don't forget, and is still present in the world.
7
8
9Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 12:26 AM
10ok so if I may comment
11Raynecloud (Ellie) - Today at 12:26 AM
12umm, yeah?
13I've not control over you at all trolling..
14Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 12:26 AM
15my first qustion
16why is the night of rage relevant?
17or rather
18Sirrug's actions
19Drburst - Today at 12:27 AM
20The Hand of Five burnt people alive because of race and Lone Star sat by and watched, because of race.
21Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 12:27 AM
22yes
23ok
24metatypes
25fantasy stuff that literally none of us are
26we can talk about this because no one is a filthy trog
27they build great parallels
28but none of us are dwarves orks, etc
29Drburst - Today at 12:28 AM
30Right, let me tell you something. Orks and Trolls are proxies for African Americans. I like showing issues I face with my race via Orks and Trolls.
31Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 12:28 AM
32yes
33I literally just said that
34"they build great parallels."
35Raynecloud (Ellie) - Today at 12:29 AM
36Yes, but you seem to want to build one set of parallels but not another.
37
38
39Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 12:29 AM
40wut
41Drburst - Today at 12:29 AM
42Exactly
43Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 12:29 AM
44WHAT
45why do you think that?
46Raynecloud (Ellie) - Today at 12:29 AM
47"Seem."
48"I did say, seem."
49SilithDark (Cara) - Today at 12:29 AM
50And, Rayne, when I say I was told not to, I mean I was asked not to, because it would set a precedent that that is okay and some individuals may not handle it as... delicately
51Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 12:29 AM
52what was the point in saying Seem?
53you just made a huge accusation that the word seem would not make any lesser
54Raynecloud (Ellie) - Today at 12:30 AM
55Ok.
56Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 12:30 AM
57you also dodged the question
58why do you think I think differently then you?
59Jack Snipe (Mira) - Today at 12:31 AM
60The problem isn't a sane player playing something uncomfortable.
61Raynecloud (Ellie) - Today at 12:31 AM
62I don't know how to articulate why it came off that way trolling.
63
64
65Jack Snipe (Mira) - Today at 12:32 AM
66The problem is it creating precedent which may allow a less sensible player to turn around and go "you let her do it" and then turn it into a poorly done parody.
67Raynecloud (Ellie) - Today at 12:32 AM
68But, we shouldn't, and speaking as a trans person, toy with one set of parallels and not the other.
69Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 12:32 AM
70this makes perfect sense
71Jack Snipe (Mira) - Today at 12:32 AM
72I can totally someone playing a full-on strawman feminazi, and pointing at Siliths character to give a reason for it being cool.
73Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 12:32 AM
74thats fine for a home game rayne
75Raynecloud (Ellie) - Today at 12:32 AM
76Yes, and it's also a very standard knee jerk reaction.
77Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 12:32 AM
78but we're a community with new and unknown members
79trolls abound on the internet
80Jack Snipe (Mira) - Today at 12:33 AM
81Also, I frankly do not trust Callidus to handle a sensitive topic like that appropriately.
82Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 12:33 AM
83agreed
84Raynecloud (Ellie) - Today at 12:33 AM
85and you don't also know the person privately like I do
86Jack Snipe (Mira) - Today at 12:33 AM
87Based on the 1.5 year I know them.
88Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 12:33 AM
89the person being Callidus?
90Yeah I'm pretty familiar with him too
91Raynecloud (Ellie) - Today at 12:33 AM
92I'm not going to air at personal issues in this channel.
93*out
94
95
96Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 12:33 AM
97fair enough
98Raynecloud (Ellie) - Today at 12:34 AM
99Because, Callidus has asked me for help regarding certain issues a lot over the last week.
100I should only have to leave it at that.
101Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 12:34 AM
102sounds familiar
103Drburst - Today at 12:34 AM
104Okay, how's this. I can help Callidus build that run.
105Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 12:34 AM
106its up to you Burst
107no one is asking you to do that
108Drburst - Today at 12:34 AM
109I've done very heavy runs before. They take a lot, but can be really amazing when pulled off correctly
110Raynecloud (Ellie) - Today at 12:35 AM
111I can only speak for myself here.
112
113If you knee jerk and shut things down because someone gets hurt feelings or "might" get hurt feelings, we are moving in to that nonense "safe space" area of social issues where no one gets to do or say anything that ever offends or upsets someone else.
114Yes, what Callidus wants to do, might, upset me a little.
115So what. I'm upset.
116Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 12:36 AM
117I think you're overreacting
118Raynecloud (Ellie) - Today at 12:36 AM
119Am I?
120Jack Snipe (Mira) - Today at 12:36 AM
121I'm also thinking of the PR end of this.
122Raynecloud (Ellie) - Today at 12:36 AM
123When the response is, "don't let player do thing because it'll upset people?"
124Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 12:36 AM
125yes, we're opposed to this run not solely based on issues of trans people IRL
126Jack Snipe (Mira) - Today at 12:36 AM
127We had a horrible PR nightmare with the cyberdong run.
128Drburst - Today at 12:36 AM
129We recovered from that.
130And are stronger then ever.
131Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 12:36 AM
132but that Shadowrun has been adamant with the fact that transphobia ended 27 years ago
133Jack Snipe (Mira) - Today at 12:36 AM
134A run with trans topics being done poorly?
135That can be incredibly destrucitve
136
137
138Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 12:37 AM
139yeah that ain't reason to do it Burst
140we ain't saiyans
141Liburr(Exile) - Today at 12:37 AM
142speak for yourself
143Raynecloud (Ellie) - Today at 12:37 AM
144It would upset me, a lot, if it was done in poor taste. But again, who am I?
145Liburr(Exile) - Today at 12:37 AM
146dirty namekian
147Jack Snipe (Mira) - Today at 12:37 AM
148Oh, we just rebuilt the barn that burned down and filled her up with hay.
149Let's toss a match in it again and see what happens!
150Raynecloud (Ellie) - Today at 12:38 AM
151So, I'm "upset", who cares? You're not required to accomodate me and make this "my" safe space where a topic I don't like cant' be discussed because it might offend or upset me. I'll get upset. I'll be ok.
152Or any other trans person for that matter.
153Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 12:38 AM
154it's not just about you Rayne
155Raynecloud (Ellie) - Today at 12:38 AM
156I was using myself as an example.
157Jack Snipe (Mira) - Today at 12:38 AM
158Yeah, but it's not about the individual.
159Ryouichi - Today at 12:38 AM
160There are reasonable expectations of behavior and taste
161We don't stop everything that may offend people ever.
162However there is a certain expectation you will not need to deal with certain things.
163
164
165Raynecloud (Ellie) - Today at 12:39 AM
166we say this in a game where they kidnapped a girl, and made clones of her to make some gestalt technomaner mind in an actual written mission
167Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 12:39 AM
168I guess it should also be pointed out that some of us don't trust Callidus to handle this in a mature manner
169Jack Snipe (Mira) - Today at 12:39 AM
170Which mission would that be?
171Ryouichi - Today at 12:39 AM
172Doesn't matter, Bunraku exists as well
173Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 12:39 AM
174the chicago one
175Drburst - Today at 12:39 AM
176And we've had runs covering dark topics before. I just made sure to find someone I trusted in to consult with and build a tasteful story.
177Jack Snipe (Mira) - Today at 12:39 AM
178Huh.
179Ryouichi - Today at 12:39 AM
180That said: this is also a game that makes it very explicit things like gender, sexuality, and real life notions of race aren't really substantial social issues anymore
181Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 12:40 AM
182^
183Jack Snipe (Mira) - Today at 12:40 AM
184^
185Drburst - Today at 12:40 AM
186The Black Furies are a result of me working with LadyUrd to find a tasteful way to cover metahuman trafficking.
187Ryouichi - Today at 12:40 AM
188People have a reasonable expectation not to deal with that, but even though SOME people may get offended or upset by violence, it is UNREASONABLE to expect shadowrun to not cover that subject matter.
189Basically everyone has consented to stories about violence, human sexuality to a degree, and jingoism
190Jack Snipe (Mira) - Today at 12:41 AM
191Look, I have no power in this matter anyway, I'm not a coach, I'm not lore, and I'm not government.
192Raynecloud (Ellie) - Today at 12:41 AM
193I also feel like it's being molly coddled.
194Jack Snipe (Mira) - Today at 12:41 AM
195I have been around the block for a while though.
196
197
198Ryouichi - Today at 12:41 AM
199Its not
200Jack Snipe (Mira) - Today at 12:41 AM
201And I have dealt with Callidus in a GM-head and senate position multiple times.
202My advice would be a very strong no.
203Not-LoÌ·la - Today at 12:42 AM
204'The problem is it creating precedent which may allow a less sensible player to turn around and go "you let her do it" and then turn it into a poorly done parody.'
205
206I find this kind of thinking incredibly damaging.  'Precedent' is for actual laws, a highly formalized and structured environment that an online hobby community cannot and should not emulate.
207Drburst - Today at 12:42 AM
208We can use a proxie, I watch this horrible thing that was done to a member of the transcommunity on a Vice documentary. What I did was used an EvoCulture tribe as a proxie to tell the same story in this setting.
209Jack Snipe (Mira) - Today at 12:42 AM
210I do not trust him to handle this topic.
211Ryouichi - Today at 12:42 AM
212Like I think trigger warnings are bullshit and psychologically harmful but I also think people have reasonable expectations to not have to deal with certain topics.
213Also, no, Lola we DO have to deal with precedent
214Raynecloud (Ellie) - Today at 12:42 AM
215I agree with what Lola said.
216Ryouichi - Today at 12:42 AM
217We ARE a governing body
218Pretending we are not is silly
219Jack Snipe (Mira) - Today at 12:42 AM
220Problem is. It works that way.
221Not-LoÌ·la - Today at 12:42 AM
222I'm entirely fine with certain people handling certain topics and i'm entirely unfine with other people handling those exact same topics and I shouldn't have to act like i'm equally unfine with both people doing it.
223Ryouichi - Today at 12:42 AM
224And even in non-governing bodies you deal with precident
225Jack Snipe (Mira) - Today at 12:42 AM
226If we let one person have something and then restrict another person, that creates appearance of impropriety.
227That damages trust in the people who help run the net.
228Ryouichi - Today at 12:43 AM
229People who routinely act in inconsistent manners get called out on it and are considered unpleasent: in your daily life you should mind the precidents you set.
230
231
232Jack Snipe (Mira) - Today at 12:43 AM
233Which in turn damages the net.
234Drburst - Today at 12:43 AM
235I agree with Lola was well
236Ryouichi - Today at 12:43 AM
237We obviously have precidents
238You can agree, but it is obviously untrue.
239We literally have some rules that are entirely based on precident
240Raynecloud (Ellie) - Today at 12:43 AM
241If you're an actual governing body, why are you throwing screenshots of private conversations in to public in a violation of privacy?
242Not-LoÌ·la - Today at 12:43 AM
243Impropriety being defined that broadly lowers everyone to the level of the least capable in the group.  It's winked at currently but if strictly applied, that's the result.
244Raynecloud (Ellie) - Today at 12:43 AM
245Answer me that.
246Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 12:44 AM
247what private conversations?
248anything in general is for public viewing
249Not-LoÌ·la - Today at 12:44 AM
250Regardless it's not something i'm going to argue ad nauseam, but i'm against that entire line of thinking.
251Raynecloud (Ellie) - Today at 12:44 AM
252I thought the screenshot was of a private conversation.
253I was mistaken. Apologies.
254Ryouichi - Today at 12:44 AM
255People SHOULD respect privacy btw
256Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 12:44 AM
257of course
258SilithDark (Cara) - Today at 12:44 AM
259This isn't public either, though
260Ryouichi - Today at 12:44 AM
261Do get permission to share stuff
262Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 12:44 AM
263yes
264Ryouichi - Today at 12:45 AM
265even in government chats
266Unless it is obviously critical to share
267
268
269
270Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 12:45 AM
271but we're not stripping info from this chat
272Ryo is correct
273Ryouichi - Today at 12:45 AM
274if someone isn't making an official complaint, just bring up that 'people said x'
275Even if they do, don't name them if they aren't comfortable with it, send it up to council.
276Not-LoÌ·la - Today at 12:45 AM
277Anything done in an official capacity should be open to scrutiny, anything done in a private one should not (necessarily).
278Ryouichi - Today at 12:46 AM
279Council can take records that prove things happened without opening up people's private lives to everyone forever.
280Raynecloud (Ellie) - Today at 12:46 AM
281I'm curious how long before we put a ban on everything because it might upset someone. Because that's what I'm seeing. Don't let people play characters with PTSD, because we have veterans for example.
282Ryouichi - Today at 12:46 AM
283We don't do that.
284Not-LoÌ·la - Today at 12:46 AM
285Unless the public capacity is discussing something which was undertaken by someone else in a private capacity, which obviously carries over privacy.
286Ryouichi - Today at 12:46 AM
287Again, its about reasonable expectations
288Drburst - Today at 12:46 AM
289Could using a proxie to tell the same story work?
290Ryouichi - Today at 12:46 AM
291It is unreasonable for me to want to participate in a shadowrun community and not touch on certain themes
292but the reverse is true in some ways as well.
293Drburst - Today at 12:47 AM
294I touch on themes of race all the time by using the Ork and Troll communities in the barrens.(edited)
295
296
297Not-LoÌ·la - Today at 12:47 AM
298Well you either have reasonable expectations 'don't be a dick, if other people tell you you're being a dick, consider that you might be being a dick', or you have strict rules.  Currently shadownet has a mixture of both.  I'm obviously in favour of the former rather than the latter.
299Raynecloud (Ellie) - Today at 12:47 AM
300You and I also have different views on what's "Reasonable" Ryouichi.
301Ryouichi - Today at 12:47 AM
302Yeah I mean there are social commentary elements of SR you can't avoid.
303We do.
304Raynecloud (Ellie) - Today at 12:47 AM
305and my fear is that you (not ignoring you burst, sorry)
306Not-LoÌ·la - Today at 12:47 AM
307I don't want to feel like I can't run runs with racism or gender politics or whatever in them when I feel like I can handle those in an appropriate manner, because other people can't.
308Raynecloud (Ellie) - Today at 12:48 AM
309^
310Drburst - Today at 12:48 AM
311Exactly, so can we have Callidus use a proxie to tell the same story. No worries, Rayne.
312Not-LoÌ·la - Today at 12:48 AM
313The easiest way to handle 'don't want' is to have a style sheet or a yes/no list for GMs.
314Ryouichi - Today at 12:49 AM
315There is a difference between telling a story of racism through the 'proxy' as Burst put it of orks, and having characters drop real world slurs.
316Especially as the second would be a...
317Raynecloud (Ellie) - Today at 12:49 AM
318So, what about all the racial slurs tossed about in world?
319Ryouichi - Today at 12:49 AM
320In our world or in game?
321
322
323Raynecloud (Ellie) - Today at 12:49 AM
324You're again, moving to "ok with this parallel" but not this one.
325yes
326Drburst - Today at 12:49 AM
327Again, my solution for this issue is to suggest Callidus to use an EvoCulture body modder as a proxie.
328Raynecloud (Ellie) - Today at 12:49 AM
329Like "dirty trogs" for example
330Ryouichi - Today at 12:49 AM
331They are not equivalent
332ok so in game
333Yeah: They exist as a buffer for a reason
334Raynecloud (Ellie) - Today at 12:50 AM
335Are they not? because you might have an affrican american person who might take offense to any useage of anything in the game that can be construed as racism
336Ryouichi - Today at 12:50 AM
337That person has to deal because it is a major aspect of the setting
338Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 12:50 AM
339we say dirty trogs for fun because there are literally no trogs
340Not-LoÌ·la - Today at 12:50 AM
341That's a matter of player/character separation.  I've had real-world slurs and real-world-style racism at the table irl and it's been handled very maturely by everyone involved.  The character having those attitudes (for example, during a game set in 1900s Capetown) accentuated the story and wasn't taken as ooc by anyone involved.  Including the actual south african.
342
343
344Drburst - Today at 12:50 AM
345I disagree with not allowing Callidus to explore the topic, he will need training and a close watch. But, if he is seeking out advice from Rayne he is taking the right steps.
346Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 12:50 AM
347and in a sarcastic manner
348Ryouichi - Today at 12:50 AM
349But they don't have to deal with a GM shouting real world racial slurs as a character
350That is not something you should ever have to deal with as a member of this community
351Drburst - Today at 12:51 AM
352Like... one of the reason I play a Troll decker is to explore things I face as a Black Engineer.
353Being called a "trog" decker could have the same sting.
354It's... very thinly veiled
355Raynecloud (Ellie) - Today at 12:51 AM
356Exactly my point.
357Ryouichi - Today at 12:51 AM
358It could but people entering here have self selected
359You are basically describing someone who doesn't even want to play shadowrun
360Raynecloud (Ellie) - Today at 12:52 AM
361Yes, and SO have trans people like me.
362I would hope.
363Drburst - Today at 12:52 AM
364Ryo, would it be okay if we have Callidus 1) put a warning on his run 2) allow players to walk when they please
365Raynecloud (Ellie) - Today at 12:52 AM
366You're cheery picking and censoring and I don't like it. You can deny it all you want, you're still doing it.
367Not that I have any say in the matter obviously.
368Drburst - Today at 12:53 AM
369And, again, I would personally help him prep for this if he really wants to do it.
370Ryouichi - Today at 12:53 AM
371I am not making the choice here.
372This is pretty much all of government going "ehhh... nah"
373
374Raynecloud (Ellie) - Today at 12:53 AM
375yeah, because you don't like the person
376end of story really
377Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 12:53 AM
378Hey
379Ryouichi - Today at 12:53 AM
380Its not the end of story.
381Drburst - Today at 12:53 AM
382At the end of the day, it is Spin's choice I feel.
383VoroSR (Two-AOA) - Today at 12:54 AM
384I don't have a problem with said run as long as the GM division vets the plan/prop.
385Or is okay with passing on said.
386Ryouichi - Today at 12:54 AM
387I don't particularly care. I am just explaining why this is a valid conversation to have at all.
388VoroSR (Two-AOA) - Today at 12:54 AM
389I also think it should be up to GM division but would object if they denied it out of hand.
390Ryouichi - Today at 12:54 AM
391I have serious doubts about caldius but I haven't voted on this either way.
392Adem ({Taengele}, Luin, DOSBaus) - Today at 12:54 AM
393Got me, whole gov are corrupt assholes that exist to get in the way of good ol'fashioned fun and discrimination.
394Ryouichi - Today at 12:54 AM
395But I am trying to explain why concern for other people is not the same thing as infringing on your rights.
396VoroSR (Two-AOA) - Today at 12:54 AM
397That is 100% not what is being said Adem
398Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 12:55 AM
399Adem is being sarcastic
400
401
402Liburr(Exile) - Today at 12:55 AM
403uh
404Adem ({Taengele}, Luin, DOSBaus) - Today at 12:55 AM
405Very
406Drburst - Today at 12:55 AM
407One of the times of most growth for me as a GM was when I had LadyUrd help me build a run that dealt with something awful.
408Ryouichi - Today at 12:55 AM
409see you made a critical error
410Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 12:55 AM
411lel
412Raynecloud (Ellie) - Today at 12:55 AM
413No, it isn't, and there are several people in this channel who have addmited to having issue swith callidus.
414Ryouichi - Today at 12:55 AM
415In assuming we even talked about this shit internally that much
416Which is surely gunna piss some people off who didn't even give input on this matter yet.
417Not-LoÌ·la - Today at 12:55 AM
418My 2cp is very simply;
419
4201.  'Don't be a dick' is better than 'if anyone gets offended, you've done wrong'.
421
4222.  Shadownet is very big on 'someone says some very definitive sounding thing about what you can and can't do that is not part of the written rules' and 'everyone else demurrs, making them seem authoritative', and that's a bad thing from a 'allowing people to do stuff' point of view.(edited)
423
424
425Raynecloud (Ellie) - Today at 12:55 AM
426You're not being impartial, at all. If you have issues with callidus as a person, you should distance yourself from the conflict of interest and abstain in the vote.
427THAT is being a REAL goverment.
428Ryouichi - Today at 12:56 AM
429The problem is all of government has issues with calidus
430Liburr(Exile) - Today at 12:56 AM
431my vote would be to have Calidus do it with a sit in, And this is as a person who has issues with how abrassive he is. No way to learn unless he makes an attempt, same as being a probie.
432Ryouichi - Today at 12:56 AM
433I would hazard a guess that more than 50% of this room has issues with him as well
434Drburst - Today at 12:56 AM
435That sounds fair, Liburr
436Ryouichi - Today at 12:56 AM
437But, like I said
438VoroSR (Two-AOA) - Today at 12:56 AM
439I think even a sit-in is heavy handed.
440Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 12:56 AM
441I'd back that guess
442Ryouichi - Today at 12:56 AM
443Pretty much two people in government have talked about it
444VoroSR (Two-AOA) - Today at 12:56 AM
445A prop or plan is plenty.
446Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 12:56 AM
447no
448not with him, he needs approval from GM's
449Raynecloud (Ellie) - Today at 12:56 AM
450Since when?
451Drburst - Today at 12:56 AM
452And, again, this is up to Spin I feel
453
454
455Ryouichi - Today at 12:56 AM
456About this run?
457VoroSR (Two-AOA) - Today at 12:56 AM
458Is he a Full GM?
459Not-LoÌ·la - Today at 12:56 AM
460If he's a full GM he doesn't technically have to do anything.
461Drburst - Today at 12:56 AM
462I think he is standard ranked?
463VoroSR (Two-AOA) - Today at 12:56 AM
464Because I believe he is.
465Liburr(Exile) - Today at 12:56 AM
466I believe he is
467Raynecloud (Ellie) - Today at 12:56 AM
468He's a full GM.
469Drburst - Today at 12:56 AM
470let me look
471Liburr(Exile) - Today at 12:56 AM
472then yeahj
473Not-LoÌ·la - Today at 12:56 AM
474He can just get in trouble if people report his run.
475Liburr(Exile) - Today at 12:56 AM
476no sit in
477Raynecloud (Ellie) - Today at 12:56 AM
478He doesnt' need approval for anything.
479
480
481VoroSR (Two-AOA) - Today at 12:57 AM
482In which case a sit-in is heavy handed.
483Drburst - Today at 12:57 AM
484Yeah, he can run it
485VoroSR (Two-AOA) - Today at 12:57 AM
486I would suggest he do a plan.(edited)
487Liburr(Exile) - Today at 12:57 AM
488yeah. I hadn't checked
489Ryouichi - Today at 12:57 AM
490If Calidus is a full GM it is on Spin, the coaches, and lore department to do whatever about it
491If they allow bad shit to go down, then senate gets involved.
492VoroSR (Two-AOA) - Today at 12:57 AM
493Lore has no say except on whether or not it is canon.
494Which is not particularly relevant here.
495This skirts none of those lines.
496Liburr(Exile) - Today at 12:57 AM
497yup
498Raynecloud (Ellie) - Today at 12:57 AM
499No, we don't and it isn't.
500Drburst - Today at 12:57 AM
501See, even Lore doesn't have much control over this. They can only non-cannon the run.
502This is fully with Spin.
503Not-LoÌ·la - Today at 12:58 AM
504No it's not.
505Ryouichi - Today at 12:58 AM
506Senate could also intervene and define this as an issue that affects the net as a community, but I don't think the majority wants to
507Not-LoÌ·la - Today at 12:58 AM
508It's with the GM rules.  What spin's responsibility, and coaches, and so on, is to respond to team-gm and mentorhelp with advice and so on.
509Ryouichi - Today at 12:58 AM
510But it is 100% within senate's right to say "You can't do this because it is horrifically unfair to parts of the playerbase"
511Adem ({Taengele}, Luin, DOSBaus) - Today at 12:58 AM
512I don't have an issue with him, actually pretty pleasant relationship. I also don't think he can do it tastefully primarily because I haven't been on any runs of his that deal with heavy subject matter and his personality doesn't seem to lend itself well to that mindset.
513
514
515Ryouichi - Today at 12:58 AM
516I don't think anyone is.
517Not-LoÌ·la - Today at 12:58 AM
518And respond to runs after the run if it goes tits up
519Ryouichi - Today at 12:58 AM
520But there is a reason that people are talking like anyone has denied him.
521Because they could.
522Liburr(Exile) - Today at 12:58 AM
523I still believe that we should give him the chance to run it
524Raynecloud (Ellie) - Today at 12:59 AM
525So do I.
526Not-LoÌ·la - Today at 12:59 AM
527The issue I have is that this discussion is happening at all.
528Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 12:59 AM
529I don't think so, but I'm not upper government
530Not-LoÌ·la - Today at 12:59 AM
531Either you're giving advice to a GM
532Ryouichi - Today at 12:59 AM
533It is on the coaches and to a lesser degree the senate.
534Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 12:59 AM
535if this was any other GM
536Not-LoÌ·la - Today at 12:59 AM
537You're warning someone about something the senate might ban them for.
538Ryouichi - Today at 12:59 AM
539Subgov has an advisory capacity.
540Liburr(Exile) - Today at 12:59 AM
541well, it's happening, so the best thing that can happen now is that we resolve it as quickly and prudently as possible.
542Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 12:59 AM
543I'd throw my full weight behind it
544Raynecloud (Ellie) - Today at 12:59 AM
545And that's my point right there.
546
547
548Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 1:00 AM
549but I ain't senate Rayne
550I am me
551and Callidus has PERSONALLY insulted me and my family
552Drburst - Today at 1:00 AM
553@Spin What do you think
554Raynecloud (Ellie) - Today at 1:00 AM
555That is a blatant admission of personal conflict of interest in a channel where we are advising goverement.
556Ryouichi - Today at 1:00 AM
557Callidus has gone out of his way to be as offensive as possible to many people
558Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 1:00 AM
559your right
560Ryouichi - Today at 1:00 AM
561There is a point where it isn't a bias
562Drburst - Today at 1:00 AM
563Your opinion on this issue has a lot of weight
564Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 1:00 AM
565great thing Is I hold no voting power
566Ryouichi - Today at 1:00 AM
567Its just fucking 'we have seen what consistently happens'
568Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 1:00 AM
569so I can air my greivances
570and it literally does not matter
571Not-LoÌ·la - Today at 1:00 AM
572And i'm advising that as a coach that is the exact opposite of what I signed on to do.  I give advice, I approve runs, I do not go around telling people they can't do runs and what they can and can't have in their runs.   That's clearly laid out by GM rank and gm rules.
573
574
575Ryouichi - Today at 1:00 AM
576If calidus goes out of his way to ruin his relationship with everyone in government should he be immune to all action because EVERYONE has conflict of interest?
577Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 1:01 AM
578^
579Raynecloud (Ellie) - Today at 1:01 AM
580Then remove him from the net.
581Fweeba (Jet) - Today at 1:01 AM
582Please don't say everybody, I still like to consider him one of my friends.
583Ryouichi - Today at 1:01 AM
584I am giving a hypothetical
585Adem ({Taengele}, Luin, DOSBaus) - Today at 1:01 AM
586Not everyone but a majority
587I thiiiink?
588Ryouichi - Today at 1:01 AM
589If literally everyone in this room hated Calidus would the government just not interact with him?
590Not-LoÌ·la - Today at 1:01 AM
591@Ryouichi By all means tell Callidus that senate will probably ban him if he does a run about <X touchy topic> and  people get upset.
592Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 1:01 AM
593of course we'd still interact
594its our job to do so
595Ryouichi - Today at 1:01 AM
596I ain't telling anyone jack
597Not-LoÌ·la - Today at 1:02 AM
598But please don't say that it's Coaches job to 'stop him' from 'doing the run' when it isn't.
599Ryouichi - Today at 1:02 AM
600I don't care. I am defending the CONCEPT of the shadownet government
601I mean I care a bit. I think its a bad idea but I trust Spin and the coaches
602Not-LoÌ·la - Today at 1:03 AM
603It's not spin's job to 'rule over the GMs with an iron fist, making sure they all toe the line' like you keep implying.  It's not how it's treated whatsoever.
604It's not how it SHOULD be treated.
605Fweeba (Jet) - Today at 1:03 AM
606I'm honestly on the side, here, of allowing it and dealing with any resulting consequences, rather than trying to squash out a GM's freedom to prevent mistakes.
607
608
609Ryouichi - Today at 1:03 AM
610I am not saying that it should be.(edited)
611Fweeba (Jet) - Today at 1:03 AM
612Hell, that very reason was why people pushed back against the restrictive GM rules from a while back.
613Liburr(Exile) - Today at 1:03 AM
614I agree with Fweeba, and believe this is going far too long for a conversation at 1 AM
615Raynecloud (Ellie) - Today at 1:03 AM
616This is also the same set of circumstances that caused you to ban the pregnant quality. Which was, and yes, I'm going to say it, don't like it, feel free to repremand me, is bullshit. Just like this entire conversation, I "THINK" is bullshit.
617Fweeba (Jet) - Today at 1:03 AM
618A lot of restricting stuff because of what might happen.
619Raynecloud (Ellie) - Today at 1:03 AM
620There, said my peace/.
621Drburst - Today at 1:03 AM
622The coaching staff is discussing it, let us process this. There is no need to fight.
623Ryouichi - Today at 1:03 AM
624I didn't ban the pregnant quality.
625I didn't do anything.
626Raynecloud (Ellie) - Today at 1:04 AM
627"you" in a generalized senese
628not Ryouichi
629Ryouichi - Today at 1:04 AM
630I am literally just saying "Shadownet's government is going to continue being a government, thank you very much'
631Which means evreyone here has roles and responsiiblities and obligations to the charter.
632Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 1:04 AM
633^
634Liburr(Exile) - Today at 1:04 AM
635which opens up a whole other can of worms that I'm not getting into.
636Ryouichi - Today at 1:04 AM
637Senate COULD intervene but that intervention is a massive reflection on Spin OR is an overstepping of our bounds
638Not-LoÌ·la - Today at 1:04 AM
639@Ryouichi Do you not mean to come across as in favour of 'stopping' people from doing runs and banning certain topics and so forth?  That's what i'm getting from your statements.  Text, however, is ambiguous.(edited)
640Raynecloud (Ellie) - Today at 1:04 AM
641Me, to.
642Ryouichi - Today at 1:04 AM
643I am in favor of that being a power
644Because it should be.
645Not that it appplies here.
646Liburr(Exile) - Today at 1:05 AM
647I disagree strongly
648Ryouichi - Today at 1:05 AM
649If someone tried to run the concentrationcamp ghosts mission
650Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 1:05 AM
651you're assuming this power will be abused or treated lightly
652it will not
653Raynecloud (Ellie) - Today at 1:05 AM
654That is the single most asinine thing I have ever heard you say. "Ban topics" because why?
655Not-LoÌ·la - Today at 1:05 AM
656The only times when i've been on shadownet and it's 'been a power' it's been hugely limiting and run rates have dropped massively.
657Ryouichi - Today at 1:05 AM
658I would say 'no, we definitely should stop that'
659Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 1:05 AM
660this is what non con is for
661Drburst - Today at 1:05 AM
662I feel we should only judge GMs by their ability to handle dark runs, and Callidus hasn't shown he can't handle it.
663I am worried, but he should have a chance.
664Liburr(Exile) - Today at 1:05 AM
665@Drburst on the same token, he has not had the opportunity to
666
667
668Ryouichi - Today at 1:05 AM
669I don't think a run where you kill the ghosts of holocost victims, a literal canon run, is appropraite for any GM to run.
670Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 1:05 AM
671exactly
672Liburr(Exile) - Today at 1:06 AM
673I think it can be done tastefully
674Raynecloud (Ellie) - Today at 1:06 AM
675wow
676Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 1:06 AM
677this was a thing proposed Ellie
678I shit you not
679Drburst - Today at 1:06 AM
680Ryouichi, please don't move the goal posts.
681Ryouichi - Today at 1:06 AM
682I am not
683Adem ({Taengele}, Luin, DOSBaus) - Today at 1:06 AM
684Wasn't in the upper tiers of gov when it happened but the situation that occured from the quality proved to be an issue, would say moreso than some of the previously banned ones.
685Not-LoÌ·la - Today at 1:06 AM
686Well, my family is jewish, and from poland.  And if that run was handled right, i'd be perfectly fine with it.
687Ryouichi - Today at 1:06 AM
688I am giving an example of why the power should exist
689Drburst - Today at 1:06 AM
690That's such an extreme example.
691Ryouichi - Today at 1:06 AM
692It was a real example
693Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 1:06 AM
694as another jew, I disagree Lola
695Ryouichi - Today at 1:06 AM
696That is an actual shadowrun mission
697Drburst - Today at 1:06 AM
698And, again, if a GM could handle it tastefully why not.
699Raynecloud (Ellie) - Today at 1:06 AM
700so, ban and censor everything then and be fucking done with it because that's what you're talking about ryo
701Not-LoÌ·la - Today at 1:06 AM
702As in, I had actual family that y'know, we never heard from after fleeing poland, way back in the distant past.
703Ryouichi - Today at 1:06 AM
704Not everyone has the same tollerances and at a point is unreasonable to expect people to just 'deal with it'
705
706
707Raynecloud (Ellie) - Today at 1:06 AM
708let's be all happy lovely rosey shadowrun
709and move on
710Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 1:06 AM
711does this give you more cred Lola?
712Drburst - Today at 1:07 AM
713That run is beyond my skill level, but sure. They could run that if they are skilled.
714Liburr(Exile) - Today at 1:07 AM
715Trolling, the point is
716Raynecloud (Ellie) - Today at 1:07 AM
717It upsets You, it doesn't upset Lola. So whose in the right and who gets the censor button? you or lola?
718Liburr(Exile) - Today at 1:07 AM
719it can be done. You don't have to agree with it, but that's still within people's right to run.
720Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 1:07 AM
721no
722fuck that
723Ryouichi - Today at 1:07 AM
724I am on the verge of banging the gavel if people don't slow their rolls here
725Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 1:07 AM
726I refuse to even consider that it can be done(edited)
727Not-LoÌ·la - Today at 1:08 AM
728@Trollingstones (Puffin) The question is more 'if there was a run, and it was handled in a respectful fashion, and it was clearly signposted so you could not go on it, would you still be offended'?  Because if you were, i'd say in that scenario you are the one being unreasonable.
729Fweeba (Jet) - Today at 1:08 AM
730Sounds like the sort of situation that could be dealt with via warnings on the run, honestly, if somebody feels like it wouldn't sit right with them, they could then choose to not apply.
731Ryouichi - Today at 1:08 AM
732We got about 3 seperate conversations going on
733Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 1:08 AM
734the premise itself is disrespectful
735Raynecloud (Ellie) - Today at 1:08 AM
736On The topic.
737Liburr(Exile) - Today at 1:08 AM
738Then bang the gavel, because as far as I'm concerned, this conversation has ceased to be constructive in any way/shape/form. And I will take my leave.
739Ryouichi - Today at 1:08 AM
740Considering the nature of the topic I am reluctant to do that
741Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 1:08 AM
742no Ryouichi  go for it
743its super late for alot of us
744Ryouichi - Today at 1:08 AM
745But I will if I gotta.
746Drburst - Today at 1:08 AM
747Again, the GM staff is discussing this issue. Give us time to process it. We'll get back to you.
748Fweeba (Jet) - Today at 1:08 AM
749Regardless, the topic specifically of Callidus' run, is being discussed in Team Coach.
750Ryouichi - Today at 1:08 AM
751We can always start up another time after tempers died down
752Drburst - Today at 1:09 AM
753We hear all your input.
754And we thank you.
755
756
757Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 1:09 AM
758that sounds fair Ryo
759Not-LoÌ·la - Today at 1:09 AM
760@Trollingstones (Puffin) There are people with traumas related to almost any issue.  Why is your trauma more relevant than the person with trauma about, say, women forced to sell themselves into prostitution due to poverty?  That's the actual issue.
761Ryouichi - Today at 1:09 AM
762Cool. So the stuff that needs to immediately be adressed is squared away in a manner satisfactory to everyone.
763Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 1:09 AM
764you're dodging the point again Lola
765Ryouichi - Today at 1:09 AM
766Long term philosophical debates shouldn't intrude on day to day functions.
767Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 1:09 AM
768the point is that murdering holocaust spirits is impossible to do well(edited)
769Ryouichi - Today at 1:10 AM
770Considering as far as I know no one is enacting this hypoethetical emergency senate sanity check it isn't relevant right now trolling
771Not-LoÌ·la - Today at 1:10 AM
772When this is a 'philosophical debate' that has caused me to get runs canceled, pulled, and in general messed with, it's no longer purely philosophical.
773Ryouichi - Today at 1:10 AM
774And it hasn't
775Drburst - Today at 1:10 AM
776I disagree Trolling, it is beyond my skill level but say we had a holocaust victem who was a GM and wanted to do that run.
777Ryouichi - Today at 1:10 AM
778So it is still purely philosophical
779Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 1:10 AM
780thats it
781Not-LoÌ·la - Today at 1:10 AM
782Well it actually has in the past... like ten times.
783Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 1:10 AM
784I'm done
785Drburst - Today at 1:10 AM
786They could handle a run like that.
787Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 1:10 AM
788I'm just fucking done
789Burst
790go ahead and run your holocaust run
791in fact
792send it to me
793
794
795Ryouichi - Today at 1:10 AM
796:hammer:
797Order in the court.
798Adem ({Taengele}, Luin, DOSBaus) - Today at 1:11 AM
799I'm going to outright say it, you're being a shit rayne, not discussing things in any really constructive way and looking on any regulatory/structure to things with distain. Imma leave since I promised myself next time it got heated in subgov I'd step out besides we've galloped past the godwin line.
800Ryouichi - Today at 1:11 AM
801Adem, take a walk man.
802Its gunna be ok
803Raynecloud (Ellie) - Today at 1:11 AM
804Please remove me from all roles, and return me to a regular player. I no longer wish to be on lore or be a GM on the net. Thank you.
805Ryouichi - Today at 1:12 AM
806You will need to handle that with your individual heads
807Not-LoÌ·la - Today at 1:12 AM
808Yeah PM them if you actually want to do that.
809Ryouichi - Today at 1:12 AM
810In part because I don't want to step on their toes and in part to give them time to change their minds
811Not-LoÌ·la - Today at 1:12 AM
812Can't rely on people to see subgov thread statements.
813Drburst - Today at 1:12 AM
814Damn it guys, this type of stuff is why we have high GM burn out on the net. I, personally, feel under attack every time I GM. Let the GM staff handle this.
815Please.
816Ryouichi - Today at 1:12 AM
817Now. I get I ain't exactly a role model in this regards
818Not-LoÌ·la - Today at 1:12 AM
819However you might want to give yourself 24 to think about
820Trollingstones (Puffin) - Today at 1:13 AM
821Ryo gaveled folks
822end of it
823Ryouichi - Today at 1:13 AM
824This is not a legislated branch of the net
825This is not where you make fundemental changes to how things run, or the code of conduct. This is a beuracracy. We all got a job to do and need to do it to the best of our ability
826That includes advocating change
827Both with your heads and with senate.
828But it is not the place to draw a line in the sand.
829Especially when actual work needs to get done
830Liburr(Exile) - Today at 1:14 AM
831except that's been happening. Repeatedly.
832Not-LoÌ·la - Today at 1:14 AM
833As I understand it, this is for me to give my thoughts on the roles I have in shadownet, to wit, GM, coach, gritty fellow who likes dark gritty runs (and to run them).  If i'm getting the purpose of this thread incorrect, someone can definitely tell me that.  This has all just been my view on this situation, as a coach, and overall attitudes towards GMing, on the net.
834
835
836Ryouichi - Today at 1:14 AM
837I don't care about your thoughts, to be very frank.
838The heads determine your powers within your departments
839They are your bosses and advocates. Everyone unambigously knew this was spin's deal
840Yet everyone felt the need to interject their own feelings on if he should even have the power to do his own job
841Talking about removing the power for the GM head to deny runs is beyond the scope of this conversation
842Drburst - Today at 1:16 AM
843Yes, there is a ton of toxicity on the net towards GMs.
844We try, hard, to make good content.
845Ryouichi - Today at 1:16 AM
846That is a bigger conversation than this.
847And it seems to be somewhat Gunnysacking
848Drburst - Today at 1:17 AM
849We just lost a GM
850Ryouichi - Today at 1:17 AM
851The questions relevant are: 1: Does anyone have any right to actually deny this and 2: Do they want to do so?
852Drburst - Today at 1:17 AM
853Do you know how few GMs we have.
854Give GMs some trust.
855If Callidus fucks up, we'll deal with it then.
856Ryouichi - Today at 1:18 AM
857Like I said: We trust the head of GMs and the coaches to make the choices
858you are a coach
859We are telling you its your call
860And that somehow isn't enough.
861You are empowered to make this call and make sure it turns out ok.
862Drburst - Today at 1:18 AM
863Again, we just lost a GM.
864Not-LoÌ·la - Today at 1:18 AM
865Ryouichi, either this is about coaches, or we aren't entitled to have a viewpoint.  Pick one.
866Ryouichi - Today at 1:18 AM
867I have picked
868The GMs have the right to deny this OR allow it
869Not-LoÌ·la - Today at 1:19 AM
870And the bit I have been consistently having a problem with is this part:  "make sure it turns out ok."
871Ryouichi - Today at 1:19 AM
872Yes. Your job is to make sure things run smoothly.
873If you screw up? That sucks, but we still trust ya.
874Not-LoÌ·la - Today at 1:19 AM
875That turns GMing into a police state.  It's directly counter to what Spin has been saying in mentorhelp and team-gm, consistently, for weeks.
876Ryouichi - Today at 1:20 AM
877It doesn't though.
878Not-LoÌ·la - Today at 1:20 AM
879The explicit attitude is to let people do stuff, as long as it's not obviously crazy, and if they screw it up THEN look into it/train/talk/suggest not doing that in future, etc.
880Ryouichi - Today at 1:20 AM
881Sounds like you are keeping things smooth to me.
882
883
884Not-LoÌ·la - Today at 1:20 AM
885Coaches aren't magical.  We can't 'make sure' it 'turns out okay' unless we breathe down GM necks.
886Ryouichi - Today at 1:21 AM
887And that is your call to make
888Considering I have literally not heard complaints I don't think anyone in senate is going to be jazzed to remove powers from you.
889Drburst - Today at 1:21 AM
890We have your input, thank you Ryouichi. We are discussing it.(edited)
891Ryouichi - Today at 1:21 AM
892To make my official stance on the Calidus run clear: I don't care.
893If it goes great, great. If you deny it, great. If it derails, shit sucks, but you gotta pick up the pieces.
894Drburst - Today at 1:22 AM
895Good, now I'm going to talk to the GM we just lost and try to get them back.
896Liburr(Exile) - Today at 1:23 AM
897which is a great summation of this entire conversation. At least everything positive out of it.
898So if we're all in agreement, let's stop talking about it.
899dbv/doge (Nickles) - Today at 1:26 AM
900so, to regain good feelings: http://i.imgur.com/a7r5bFJ.jpg?1
901
902Ryouichi - Today at 1:27 AM
903That would be a false harmony.
904I think there is an other conflict in the air that would be unhealthy not to adress.
905If you want to influence government: Talk to the heads, petition senate to change the charter, advocate from a calm place of empathy, or run for an office to make changes yourself. Big fights in subgov are really not productive.
906Valifor9 (Jotun) - Today at 1:28 AM
907And talking about it continuously just makes everyone mad, ryo
908
909
910Ryouichi - Today at 1:28 AM
911That goes for some people who were supporting us too.
912Valifor9 (Jotun) - Today at 1:29 AM
913This isn't helping
914Drburst - Today at 1:29 AM
915@Alcyius(The Weavess) @Spin At RayneCloyd's request, I've removed her from the lore and Gm channels(edited)
916Valifor9 (Jotun) - Today at 1:29 AM
917It's not a false harmony, it's just stopping the drama for now because it does no good
918Ryouichi - Today at 1:30 AM
919I suspect some people are going to disagree with me.
920Valifor9 (Jotun) - Today at 1:30 AM
921So please, stop fighting
922Ryouichi - Today at 1:30 AM
923Which would prove people were holding things in that shouldn't have to be held in.
924If we can go at this rationally it would be worth it. If not I will look like a bit of an ass.
925Valifor9 (Jotun) - Today at 1:31 AM
926This stopped being rational when people started saying insults
927Not-LoÌ·la - Today at 1:31 AM
928@Valifor9 (Jotun) Discussion is only as pointless as people's entrenched opinions make it pointless.  And people's attitudes that it is pointless serve to create attitudes that kill said discussion.  Free and open exchange of views and information should be, ideally, productive even if no outcome is immediately achieved.
929Ryouichi - Today at 1:31 AM
930^
931At the very least we should attempt to understand the concerns of the people we don't agree with.
932Valifor9 (Jotun) - Today at 1:31 AM
933Now please, everyone stop fighting
934Liburr(Exile) - Today at 1:31 AM
935That can be dealt with individually with those individuals that have intractible opinions
936rather than aired openly.
937Ryouichi - Today at 1:32 AM
938Well I am just trying to keep the dialogue open.
939Valifor9 (Jotun) - Today at 1:32 AM
940Guys, I am not seeing people trying to understand here, all I see, as an outsider with no stake in this, is hateful fighting and drama and no empathy
941
942
943Ryouichi - Today at 1:32 AM
944It isn't at this point. Valifor it seems like people have calmed down
945Valifor9 (Jotun) - Today at 1:33 AM
946No, they stopped talking
947Big difference
948Ryouichi - Today at 1:33 AM
949Yes because you are telling everyone to be silent.
950And that their disagreements are merely hateful drama rather than legitimate concerns.
951Valifor9 (Jotun) - Today at 1:33 AM
952One person got upset enough to leave lore am gm departments
953Ryouichi - Today at 1:33 AM
954And pretending nothing happened will make that worse.
955Valifor9 (Jotun) - Today at 1:34 AM
956I'm saying how they are fighting is unproductive and just making people feel worse. They stopped talking because they saw no point in continued fighting that goes nowhere
957Ryouichi - Today at 1:34 AM
958If people still have stuff to say and can say it from a stable position they should be empowered to say it.
959Valifor9 (Jotun) - Today at 1:34 AM
960I'm not saying nothing happened
961Liburr(Exile) - Today at 1:34 AM
962Do you ever consider even for a second that you are part of that feeling of pointlessness?
963Ryouichi - Today at 1:34 AM
964I do.
965Valifor9 (Jotun) - Today at 1:35 AM
966Sure don't act like it
967You act like you know everything and everyone should listen to you
968I'm not claiming to know what's right, I'm just trying to stop pointless arguments that do nothing but hurt people
969Like rayne
970
971
972Ryouichi - Today at 1:36 AM
973But what happened there wasn't pointless. There was a deep divide between many people about how to handle that situation.
974Liburr(Exile) - Today at 1:37 AM
975Instead, things escalate, and escalate, and nothing gets done while goalposts are moved further so that senators can try and be on the 'right side'
976Ryouichi - Today at 1:37 AM
977How do you feel the goalposts were moved?
978Liburr(Exile) - Today at 1:37 AM
979The subject was transhumanism and whether or not the GM in question (Callidus) should be allowed to run it. Which, frankly, should not have even been a question, the answer is 'yes'.
980From there it moved further to 'precident' for saying no to running sensitive topics, and examples were brought up that clearly incensed some people within the sub-government.
981Valifor9 (Jotun) - Today at 1:38 AM
982The ARGUMENT was pointless, as in HOW it was being argued was going nowhere and causing drama that only upset people. I never once said that the people's opinions were pointless, please stop putting words in my mouth
983Liburr(Exile) - Today at 1:38 AM
984This is the first point of division.
985VoroSR (Two-AOA) - Today at 1:39 AM
986I am muting this channel. If you need me, ping me.
987Valifor9 (Jotun) - Today at 1:39 AM
988:thumbsup:
989Ryouichi - Today at 1:39 AM
990Ok. More points?
991I just want you to get things out there.
992Liburr(Exile) - Today at 1:40 AM
993This is not the first time or incident where this happened.
994Valifor9 (Jotun) - Today at 1:40 AM
995You want to get the last word in and feel like you are right
996Ryouichi - Today at 1:40 AM
997I do not. I have a sincere concern over how this ends.
998
999
1000Valifor9 (Jotun) - Today at 1:40 AM
1001That's what it seems like
1002Ryouichi - Today at 1:40 AM
1003I get that you don't believe me.
1004Not-LoÌ·la - Today at 1:41 AM
1005@Valifor9 (Jotun) Really don't appreciate being told that i'm 'pointlessly fighting' for participating in sub-gov in an issue about what coaches should be doing, valifor.
1006Liburr(Exile) - Today at 1:41 AM
1007Speaking from experience, that's exactly what it seems like, both from the contact system debacle, even the argument that didn't need to happen over the roleplay and IC channels, both during the situation and later in subgov.
1008Ryouichi - Today at 1:41 AM
1009The argument did need to happen
1010In the IC channels.
1011Valifor9 (Jotun) - Today at 1:42 AM
1012This has happened like 4 times before, at least. Where an argument gets out of hand and somebody goes too far and needless drama happens and people fight without anything being resolved
1013Ryouichi - Today at 1:42 AM
1014I am sorry Liburr but I intervened because people were complaining about you. The fact you felt justified doesn't change that.
1015I tried to impress on you repeatedly that I acted in that situation because it was not 'fine' and things were going down hill and people were upset.
1016I admit I handled contacts poorly.
1017I walked away from that. And I am sorry I got involved there
1018Valifor9 (Jotun) - Today at 1:43 AM
1019Lola, I was saying that all involved, not just you, were just arguing and fighting without making any progress towards agreement, and upset somebody enough to get them to quit. That's drama that didn't need to happen
1020Ryouichi - Today at 1:43 AM
1021And yeah. This entire situation blew up. But it was not because of me. I feel like that is unfair. The situation blew up before I even go there, which is how I got here.
1022contrary to what you may think, I don't just throw myselves into scenarios I know will end poorly for me because I hate myself.(edited)
1023Valifor9 (Jotun) - Today at 1:44 AM
1024No, you do it to prove you are right
1025Ryouichi - Today at 1:44 AM
1026I do it because people come to me. Just as I am sure sometimes people come to you to ask for help in a situation Valifor.
1027Things being ok from your perspective doesn't make them Ok.
1028
1029
1030Liburr(Exile) - Today at 1:45 AM
1031The fact that people were complaining about me and not to me speaks volumes on the fact that people do not trust me, and that is indeed a problem that I have.
1032Valifor9 (Jotun) - Today at 1:45 AM
1033And even then, it wasn't just your fault or anything, stop pulling the victim card dude
1034I'm not blaming anybody here
1035Ryouichi - Today at 1:45 AM
1036Its a problem everyone has
1037Valifor9 (Jotun) - Today at 1:45 AM
1038I just want the fighting to stop
1039Ryouichi - Today at 1:45 AM
1040Well hopefulyl things will die down when my term ends.
1041I am not trying to play the victim card. I am just trying to create a mutual understanding.
1042The reason I sometimes pop up in big rows and try to shut things down is the same reason you do.
1043I just am worse at it.
1044But someone needed to be here.
1045Valifor9 (Jotun) - Today at 1:47 AM
1046What mutual understanding? What good comes from all of this drama and insults and fighting?
1047Ryouichi - Today at 1:47 AM
1048No one is insulting each othe right now
1049Valifor9 (Jotun) - Today at 1:48 AM
1050I'm talking originally, the shit I came in here to calm down
1051Ryouichi - Today at 1:48 AM
1052It did no good, which is why I came to calm it down
1053Jack Snipe (Mira) - Today at 1:48 AM
1054Can I just say as an outside onlooker that two senators arguing in "public" like this doesn't fill me with much faith in senate?
1055You may want to take this disagreement to senate chat.(edited)
1056Not-LoÌ·la - Today at 1:48 AM
1057@Valifor9 (Jotun) I now know a lot more about ryouichi's position vis coach stuff and he knows more about mine.  I also know more about what several other people consider important.  Calm, rational, informative discussion is not 'pointless arguing'.  I also am here literally as a coach, so if it's not to share what I, as what, one of.. three?  coaches think a coach should do on an issue for coaches, why am I even in the thread?
1058
1059
1060Valifor9 (Jotun) - Today at 1:50 AM
1061Good, so you two got something and at least 3 other people got majorly upset about all of this and one of our GMs quit. Good job on the rational discussion
1062Ryouichi - Today at 1:50 AM
1063That was well after things got bad
1064I hopped into the dumpster fire, as did you.
1065I think that is a fair assesment. If someone was here who disagrees feel free to say it.
1066Spin - Today at 1:52 AM
1067Holy shit I go play a game of League and come back to a clusterfuck. You guys really taking the wind out of my Silver rank promotion here
1068Valifor9 (Jotun) - Today at 1:52 AM
1069Also, jack, this channel is the place for it as this is the relevant channel. Also, people want transparency instead of us fighting in secret channels, right?
1070Not-LoÌ·la - Today at 1:52 AM
1071Only silver?
1072Ryouichi - Today at 1:52 AM
1073Just a gambit to keep you in bronze with me.
1074Spin - Today at 1:52 AM
1075(that's the joke)
1076Ryouichi - Today at 1:52 AM
1077I think its fair for Valifor to take issue with my style. In public or private is his choice.
1078Not-LoÌ·la - Today at 1:52 AM
1079How much wind is there to even take out
1080Ryouichi - Today at 1:53 AM
1081Like I just want us to talk about this shit rather than hiding it.
1082I am aware of basically like... 3 government factions
1083Who sorta dislike each other, and that sucks.
1084Not-LoÌ·la - Today at 1:54 AM
1085Personally I enjoy governmental transparency in all aspects where the word 'government' applies.
1086Ryouichi - Today at 1:54 AM
1087And it also sucks that a government member lost their temper. And it sucks someone insulted a GM, and it sucks they left.
1088But I don't think refusing to unpack this will help, and I think others feel that way even if they don't trust me to do the unpacking
1089
1090
1091Jack Snipe (Mira) - Today at 1:54 AM
1092There's a difference between transparency and oversharing.
1093When mom and dad are arguing the kids get scared.
1094dbv/doge (Nickles) - Today at 1:55 AM
1095so I'm not involved in this conversation (nor do I want to be) but here's a corgi to calm tempers a bit http://i.imgur.com/uhPDZ58.jpg
1096
1097Ryouichi - Today at 1:55 AM
1098We had a few government people today sorta overshare.
1099Spin - Today at 1:59 AM
1100@Drburst Unfortunately I wasn't here for the majority of the conversation. As far as I gathered, someone brought up the idea of doing a Run involving Trans people and discrimination against them, some people disagreed with the concept, others disagreed with dismissing it outright, tempers flared as they do, and it spiraled out from there.
1101Ryouichi - Today at 1:59 AM
1102It does not help that a few people hurled outright attacks at someone who wanted to let it through.
1103Drburst - Today at 2:00 AM
1104@Spin That is correct.
1105Maybe we shall talk in coach chat
1106I am worried over Callidus' ability, but he should be given the chance and offered coaching.
1107He has earned his rank as a standard GM.
1108Ryouichi - Today at 2:01 AM
1109He also really wants to be doing cool things
1110I TOLD him to try cool runs.
1111Drburst - Today at 2:02 AM
1112I think Call was going in the right direction by consulting Rayne
1113Someone how identifies as Trans
1114That boosted my confidence in him a lot.
1115He took the same steps I did when dealing with a run involving human trafficking
1116And that run, that very dark run, I grew a lot as a GM.
1117I learned about reading my players
1118Spin - Today at 2:04 AM
1119It seems like my opinion on this was a pretty pivotable point, so I'll write it out here; 
1120
1121As a GM Head it's my responsibility to ensure that the Shadownet is a fun place for people to come and play games. Part of that is ensuring that people feel comfortable with the subject matter, and faith that the people they're playing with handle sensitive topics in a way that does respect to it.
1122I can offer guidance, I can suggest revisions, and I can put my foot down and veto a run idea if I don't believe the person proposing it is capable of handling the subject in a way that's comfortable for everyone. However, I draw the line at making a topic verboten by mere suggestion.
1123GMs are free to propose and plan whatever run subjects they want. We're not here to stifle creativity, we're here to embrace and guide it. If someone suggests a sensitive topic, its all our responsibilities to come together and make it into something fun for everyone involved.
1124
1125
1126Ryouichi - Today at 2:13 AM
1127To be especially clear, because I feel like I may have came across wrong, I did not mean to imply there would be some consiquence or punishment if something did go wrong.
1128Spin - Today at 2:14 AM
1129The question should never be "should we do this?"
1130It should be "how can we do this right?"
1131Ryouichi - Today at 2:15 AM
1132Ok. Just know that you are empowered to change that position.
1133Drburst - Today at 2:16 AM
1134We lost a GM today, Ryouichi. I feel your comments did tend towards implying punishment if something went wrong and that's how they were taken.
1135What does "empowered to change that position" even mean
1136Ryouichi - Today at 2:16 AM
1137If they want to ban a topic they can. Spin is calling the shots there.
1138Not saying they should. It is just Spin's choice.
1139Drburst - Today at 2:17 AM
1140I think Spin covered that in his statement.
1141Ryouichi - Today at 2:17 AM
1142Alright.
1143As for losing a GM, I tried my best to keep ahold of that situation but I lost my grip. Things were moving very fast and no one wanted to stop and let things calm down. You can still feel me responsible if you wish but there was an enviroment here making people very uncomfortable before I arrived.
1144Spin - Today at 2:21 AM
1145You should be apologizing to Rayne, not us.
1146Drburst - Today at 2:21 AM
1147We GMs don't have to run here, Ryouichi. We deserve a chance and space to be creative.
1148Ryouichi - Today at 2:21 AM
1149And like I said, it is your call on how to handle that, not mine.
1150Drburst - Today at 2:22 AM
1151I'm going to be spending my creative energy prepping my home game this weekend. Not on Shadownet.
1152That is the cost of your perspective.
1153Ryouichi - Today at 2:23 AM
1154Alright
1155I would appologize to Rayne but I am rather sure they don't wish to speak to me right now.
1156Spin - Today at 2:25 AM
1157I've offered my own apology to Rayne, as well as my position I posted above. Ryouichi, in the future if you could refrain from dictating GM policy in my absence, I would appreciate it.
1158Ryouichi - Today at 2:25 AM
1159I did not intend to dictate GM policy. As I said multiple times its your policy to make.
1160Not mine. Not anyone in that brawl.
1161If that isn't what people took away, sorry. I again did not handle that well.
1162Spin - Today at 2:26 AM
1163You have to be aware that your position on the Senate means everything you say has weight.
1164Again, save it for Rayne
1165Ryouichi - Today at 2:27 AM
1166I will not, I am saying sorry to everyone.
1167
1168
1169Drburst - Today at 2:27 AM
1170Ryouichi, outside player discipline and council selection, Senate has no power. Has long as the GM head is happy with my runs, I do not care what any senator thinks about my runs.
1171No senator should have commented, only the GM staff.
1172Penguinizer - Today at 2:29 AM
1173@lore Someone in lore around who I can talk player contact with?
1174Liburr(Exile) - Today at 2:29 AM
1175Call me in the morning when I am conscious.
1176Ryouichi - Today at 2:30 AM
1177When there is a massive brawl going down in subgov it is sorta senate's job to intervene.
1178I didn't handle it well.
1179Drburst - Today at 2:32 AM
1180You ranted on the topic, aimlessly, for two hours and made lots of people upset. You could have addressed the people and passed the issue to the coaching staff.
1181Ryouichi - Today at 2:34 AM
1182Alright. What do I do if a coaching staff member continues a fight and escelates it?
1183Drburst - Today at 2:36 AM
1184Good night, Ryouichi.
1185Valifor9 (Jotun) - Today at 2:37 AM
1186Agreed with burst
1187Nalesh (Bruja, Tho San, Hokan) - Today at 2:37 AM
1188I just spent the last 10 min or so going through that shit storm, god damn you people need a mediator
1189Ryouichi - Today at 2:38 AM
1190That was a serious question. People didn't stop. What do you feel I should have done differenty?
1191Spin - Today at 2:38 AM
1192It's easy to end a conversation by just not taking part of it.
1193Ryouichi - Today at 2:38 AM
1194But it was raging super hard before I got here
1195Nalesh (Bruja, Tho San, Hokan) - Today at 2:39 AM
1196When you did the gavel thing I'd have muted the channel for about 30 sec to a minute so everyone could take a breather
1197Valifor9 (Jotun) - Today at 2:40 AM
1198^
1199Nalesh (Bruja, Tho San, Hokan) - Today at 2:40 AM
1200Also when you enter an situation like this, you have to decide from the start if you enter it as senate, or as a person
1201
1202
1203Valifor9 (Jotun) - Today at 2:40 AM
1204Stopping the conversation for a second can be a GOOD thing
1205Ryouichi - Today at 2:40 AM
1206Mmm
1207It can
1208I took a shitty approach there.
1209I also did not know you could mute a channel
1210LeVentNoir ({Pixie Twinkletoes}) - Today at 2:41 AM
1211Sorry, tldr for that pile of past two hours + chat in here?
1212Nalesh (Bruja, Tho San, Hokan) - Today at 2:42 AM
1213it's easier to do if we had a bot(jaaaaack), but you pretty much just take message privledges away from all but senate in the channel
1214Ryouichi - Today at 2:42 AM
1215Dumpster fire, p-much
1216Fireman put gas on it.
1217Valifor9 (Jotun) - Today at 2:42 AM
1218Fighting, people reacted badly, mediated was done poorly, feelings were hurt, rayne is no longer a gm
1219Is the best summary
1220Ryouichi - Today at 2:43 AM
1221Hopefully someone can get them back. Again, I am pretty sure me messaging them to say 'sorry' would not be apprecaited
1222Drburst - Today at 2:43 AM
1223@LeVentNoir ({Pixie Twinkletoes}) A GM wanted to do a run on a sanitive topic. A person who is a member of that subgroup commented that they were fine with that issue and where helping the GM do it in a tasteful away. Someone attacked that member of that subgroup and wanted to prevent the GM from doing that run.
1224Nalesh (Bruja, Tho San, Hokan) - Today at 2:44 AM
1225tldr: callidus wanted to run a run based on a transperson being fired because their boss was conservative, two things that isn't really the best things to talk about in the current political climate, so things spun out fromt here
1226LeVentNoir ({Pixie Twinkletoes}) - Today at 2:44 AM
1227So... why is rayne white now?
1228Drburst - Today at 2:44 AM
1229Debates about community expectations.
1230Ryouichi - Today at 2:44 AM
1231Things were said and they quit.
1232Nalesh (Bruja, Tho San, Hokan) - Today at 2:44 AM
1233they asked to be taken off lore and gm
1234Drburst - Today at 2:44 AM
1235They were the person attacked
1236Ryouichi - Today at 2:44 AM
1237No. people insult them, plain and simple.
1238Which is another thing that someone is going to have to handle. Probably someone who is not me.
1239Nalesh (Bruja, Tho San, Hokan) - Today at 2:45 AM
1240To be fair, rayne did quite a bit of attacking too
1241Drburst - Today at 2:45 AM
1242I had a private conversation and they felt shadownet was a toxic environment to GM in.
1243With the current leadership.
1244Nalesh (Bruja, Tho San, Hokan) - Today at 2:46 AM
1245If only alc was around it could probably have been solved easier
1246Ryouichi - Today at 2:46 AM
1247Well ya got me.
1248Sorry
1249Nalesh (Bruja, Tho San, Hokan) - Today at 2:47 AM
1250you don't choose all your battles ryo, it happens
1251Drburst - Today at 2:48 AM
1252Again, say sorry to Rayne.
1253Nalesh (Bruja, Tho San, Hokan) - Today at 2:49 AM
1254but my suggestion if we want them back as a gm, with how they seem to be feeling currently, best chance would probably have alc talk to em
1255Ryouichi - Today at 2:49 AM
1256Burst are you saying you are in contact with Rayne and they want an appology now
1257Drburst - Today at 2:50 AM
1258I am in contact with Rayne and talking about other ways they can still enjoy shadowrun, they are completely done with Shadownet.
1259But, saying sorry would go a long way I feel
1260Ryouichi - Today at 2:50 AM
1261Ok. Like I said, I want to appologize but didn't feel me contacting them would be at all constructive.
1262Nalesh (Bruja, Tho San, Hokan) - Today at 2:51 AM
1263Shit like this is why I kinda wanna rerun for senate even  though I barely have time to actually run games anymore
1264Drburst - Today at 2:51 AM
1265
1266Ryouichi - Today at 2:52 AM
1267Saying "say sorry to rayne" is a passive agressive act, especially after I said quite clearly I didn't feel justified talking to them.
1268Your displeasure with me is quite clear.
1269Trust me, I 100% got the message. I am trying to not upset Rayne any further.
1270And I am not sure if contacting them would help or upset them
1271Nalesh (Bruja, Tho San, Hokan) - Today at 2:53 AM
1272to be fair burst, you really should dial it back a bit(edited)
1273Valifor9 (Jotun) - Today at 2:54 AM
1274Gotta agree, you're being a bit too hostile burst. Ryo gets it, he just doesn't want to upset rayne mood he's unwelcome
1275Ryouichi - Today at 2:54 AM
1276Furthermore regardless of right or wrong I have obligations to the feelings of people in government all round.
1277So I do want to be able to say 'sorry' without being told to talk to someone who may or may not even want to talk to me.
1278I also want to note something: Everyone who insulted Rayne was on my side, but it wasn't me. I get that I helped create that enviroment but that was a full out brawl before I got there. And that is what I was trying to say earlier.
1279These brawls can't keep happening because they make government shitty for a lot of people.
1280I am trying to own up as much as I can to what happened here, because I get as a senator I had a massive failure here.
1281But we have had these problems a lot, and lets not delude ourselves into thinking its just me starting things. The dumpster was on fire before I got here with some gas.
1282
1283LDQ[<Goldfinch>/Baine/Cassius] - Today at 2:59 AM
1284As a new member of this channel:
1285http://gph.is/145RH42
1286Penguinizer - Today at 2:59 AM
1287Pretty much
1288Ryouichi - Today at 2:59 AM
1289Anyone else have thoughts?
1290Nalesh (Bruja, Tho San, Hokan) - Today at 3:00 AM
1291it's been burning since the world was turning
1292Ryouichi - Today at 3:00 AM
1293Like directed at me or in general.
1294Penguinizer - Today at 3:01 AM
1295I'm of the opinion that it wasn't a bad discussion to have, but am erring on the side of GM freedom as long as the players know what they're getting into.
1296Nalesh (Bruja, Tho San, Hokan) - Today at 3:01 AM
1297other than the thing of deciding who you're gonna enter the flaming building as before you do so
1298Ryouichi - Today at 3:02 AM
1299I thought so as well which is why I allowed it to continue. That was a mistake
1300Nalesh (Bruja, Tho San, Hokan) - Today at 3:03 AM
1301And about the run thing in general: It wouldn't pass lore since, as people said, it's not a problem at all anymore, people change their appearance, including gender for shits and giggles in the current shadowrun universe(edited)
1302Ryouichi - Today at 3:03 AM
1303I think this is an immaterial concern.
1304Personally at least
1305Nalesh (Bruja, Tho San, Hokan) - Today at 3:03 AM
1306Let me finish my thought ryo :V
1307Ryouichi - Today at 3:03 AM
1308Fair enough
1309God forbid you agree with my viewpoint :stuck_out_tongue:
1310Sorry.
1311Drburst - Today at 3:04 AM
1312...
1313
1314
1315Ryouichi - Today at 3:05 AM
1316Im just gunna go.
1317Valifor9 (Jotun) - Today at 3:08 AM
1318It's fine, ryo, that comment wasn't that bad, and was clearly a joke
1319Nalesh (Bruja, Tho San, Hokan) - Today at 3:09 AM
1320The shadowrun universe, like reality, is a horrible place once you start actually looking outside your window, horrible things happen to good people, even more commonly in shadowrun than the real world, bunraku is a good example. the thing is, as the immortal line goes, you gotta know your audience, some subjects are too much for some people, and you need to make sure you do the subject matter justice. The first part is hard to do on the net for obvious people, but the second part hasn't changed at all, which is where, in my opinion, callidus or whoever thought of the run failed
1321Ryouichi - Today at 3:12 AM
1322I think the debate was a more complicated one though
1323Nalesh (Bruja, Tho San, Hokan) - Today at 3:12 AM
1324indeed
1325Ryouichi - Today at 3:13 AM
1326Because it was both about if they did it correctly, if anyone should have the power to deny that run, and what if any the role of government should play.(edited)
1327There were 3 conversations moving crazy fast and in each one peopple were getting more and more amped up
1328Nalesh (Bruja, Tho San, Hokan) - Today at 3:15 AM
1329But what I saw about that was that rayne overreacted to  what they thought was toxicity and it kinda went from there
1330Ryouichi - Today at 3:15 AM
1331No matter what this was not a good enviroment, regardless of choices individuals made
1332Nalesh (Bruja, Tho San, Hokan) - Today at 3:16 AM
1333either way, don't do this in the future :V http://i.imgur.com/Qn2ogxR.gif
1334Ryouichi - Today at 3:16 AM
1335Like, again though:
1336If I wasn't there, do people really think this would have gone better?
1337Nalesh (Bruja, Tho San, Hokan) - Today at 3:17 AM
1338not really, it was already blazing
1339welcome to senate, the blue name paints a target on your back :V
1340Ryouichi - Today at 3:17 AM
1341But people are acting like it would have. Regardless of shitty stuff I did we need to make a good enviroment
1342And it wasn't, regardless of what anyone things, it definitely wasn't.
1343I dunno. Maybe I lact tact but any attempt to try to raise interpersonal issue concerns to government members has fallen on deaf ears.
1344I honestly don't know what to do.
1345And its hard to adress that especially while I am sorta just also trying to impress on people how much I get I screwed up.
1346LDQ[<Goldfinch>/Baine/Cassius] - Today at 3:38 AM
1347Personal opinion on all this: I really can't accept Catalyst's insistence that most 'old' prejudice is gone by the time of the setting. Having major institutional, legal, and cultural barriers gone is very believable, but individuals will be dicks until we go extinct. Hence I could totally see a jerk boss firing a worker for being trans, particularly with worker protections gone.
1348Nalesh (Bruja, Tho San, Hokan) - Today at 3:38 AM
1349to be fair, 75 years is a loong time
1350LDQ[<Goldfinch>/Baine/Cassius] - Today at 3:39 AM
1351yeah, but even anti-semitism is kicking around now IRL(edited)
1352Basic xenophobia is a semi-universal constant for some
1353Ryouichi - Today at 3:40 AM
1354From what I understood, the LGBT community moved to become a mainstream ingroup.
1355Sorta like catholics
1356LDQ[<Goldfinch>/Baine/Cassius] - Today at 3:40 AM
1357Oh of course. But you can see anti-catholic stuff even today.
1358It may be rare, but it can exist
1359
1360
1361Ryouichi - Today at 3:41 AM
1362I would say that setting wise you would have to treat it somewhat weirdly. Even in the CAS there are openly gay senators.
1363Who ran on family values platforms
1364IDK. I feel weird talking about it at this point
1365LDQ[<Goldfinch>/Baine/Cassius] - Today at 3:42 AM
1366'Marriage is between two humans of the same race, as God intended!"
1367Ryouichi - Today at 3:44 AM
1368He got run out of office when Haze arranged to force him to have an affair with another man.
1369Jiggered (Turkish) - Today at 3:56 AM
1370Am babby community member with little experience, but I think timing out the channel for a couple of minutes when things get heated like that is an interesting idea that should be explored further.
1371Ryouichi - Today at 3:57 AM
1372Anything else? Your opinion is as valid as anyone else's
1373Nalesh (Bruja, Tho San, Hokan) - Today at 4:00 AM
1374This might sound obvious, but people keep forgetting it, think before you speak :V
1375Ryouichi - Today at 4:04 AM
1376Got it
1377Nalesh (Bruja, Tho San, Hokan) - Today at 4:05 AM
1378like for example "Every opinion is valid" is better than "your opinion is as valid as anyone elses", since the latter one can be taken as no ones opinion matters
1379Ryouichi - Today at 4:06 AM
1380That seems like looking for offense...
1381Nalesh (Bruja, Tho San, Hokan) - Today at 4:06 AM
1382which is why it's good to limit the chances
1383Jiggered (Turkish) - Today at 4:16 AM
1384Seems like a lot people are being very absolute in their positions. Makes it hard to have rational discourse. But then again this is a very touchy subject.
1385Valifor9 (Jotun) - Today at 4:24 AM
1386^
1387exactly why i wasnted everyone to step away
1388Pope Alex (Angel) - Today at 4:39 AM
1389So my main takeaway from this is that liburr is a saiyan
1390Tempus (Bosozoku) - Today at 8:13 AM
1391Man, why do people keep bringing me up
1392like...the Pregnant ban
1393what did that have to do with this again?
1394am confus
1395why did  I wake up to this