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1Smol Fluff added MagicShoelace to the group.Today at 2:20 PM
2Smol FluffToday at 2:20 PM
3Heya LuLu
4Addison DevereToday at 2:20 PM
5Hey there
6Smol FluffToday at 2:21 PM
7If you can see the other stuff, just ignore it for now lol
8So last night, I went over the group chat you provided with Tiamat here, poking each section I believed to be poor
9And I think I've broken down the argument
10So it seems you, Aenor, wanted Natasha to recognize what was happening OOC and make strides to ease off and prevent it from escalating to how it did IC
11And you were getting mad as she didn't seem to acknowledge this
12Natasha on the other hand says that she didn't see it happening OOC as that's how she RP's, a form of method acting, and when she did realize, it was a bit too late. Though, she did make sure to check OOC that things were okay n'stuff
13Does this seem correct?
14MagicShoelaceToday at 2:25 PM
15This all seems correct so far, yeah.
16Tiamat SixToday at 2:28 PM
17... Am I actually unblocked?
18Smol FluffToday at 2:28 PM
19Is she :o?
20MagicShoelaceToday at 2:29 PM
21If she can see my messages then yes.
22Smol FluffToday at 2:29 PM
23Alright :heart:
24Just wanted to double check
25So it seems that a lot of the problems that rose tension in your chat stemmed from misunderstanding
26Tiamat SixToday at 2:29 PM
27It actually works the other way around, mind you.
28Where the person who did the blocking has all messages hidden.
29Smol FluffToday at 2:30 PM
30That's fine, but it doesn't matter at the moment if she says you're unblocked
31So
32The misunderstandings that I saw a few times seemed to revolve around two things
33Threats from Natasha and Natasha wanting to stir things up further
34So according to Natasha, her threats about Daring to you were meant to be about IC things and Aenor's position under Natasha
35If she says that they weren't meant be threats, are you willing to forgive her for the miscommunication LuLu :o?
36MagicShoelaceToday at 2:33 PM
37[11:46 PM] Tiamat Six: Keep in mind that Daring was close to getting kicked once before by Addison.
38[11:46 PM] Tiamat Six: If you're doing what placed Daring on thin ice before, you might want to reconsider what you're doing.
39Smol FluffToday at 2:34 PM
40I mean, I don't understand how that was an IC threat, but I don't know the story between you two
41Could you explain Natasha :o?
42MagicShoelaceToday at 2:34 PM
43That's not an IC threat. That was told to me on Discord. This is an OOC threat.
44Tiamat SixToday at 2:34 PM
45That's not a threat. That was an observation and a warning about a risk beyond my ability to control.
46I'm told that Daring Blaze apparently wants to apologize to me, though the player's gone from the FC and might not be coming back.
47It's not for me to determine who stays and who goew.
48Smol FluffToday at 2:36 PM
49I'm sorry, Natasha, from an outsider standpoint, I do see it more as a threat rather than an observation. I get that it's based on facts and witnessed stuff, but, it seems like it was meant to be a threat to bring it up, Y'know?
50Tiamat SixToday at 2:36 PM
51Yes, and I was admittedly curt after three hours of trying and failing to reason with two people who took an IC issue to OOC like this.
52Smol FluffToday at 2:37 PM
53So you admit it was a threat in a way, then? I do have to say, that's not something I can allow from an officer, unfortunately. But, that's not what's important right now. What is important is, do you regret saying it/are you willing to apologize for making it?
54Tiamat SixToday at 2:37 PM
55This was me saying it was not meant to be construed as a threat, but since I was worn down to the point of being that much more curt than usual it could have been phrased better.
56MagicShoelaceToday at 2:38 PM
57[11:40 PM] Tiamat Six: I'm a FC officer who's trying to reason with you OOC, mind you.
58[11:40 PM] Tiamat Six: You have already stated that you are against resolution and refuse to consider that you have done anything wrong.
59( earlier btw )
60Despite not doing anything wrong.
61Funny parallel to an earlier IC conversation. Pretty much what Nat said to Tsuki as she negated healing. :thinking:
62Addison DevereToday at 2:44 PM
63The reasoning for Daring being on thin ice in my book was that they were harassing S'ayeh when S'ayeh had no interest in talking to them further, since they had blocked them - they told me in dm's that they planned to use FC chat to further talk to them but I wasn't prepared to be okay with that happening.
64Along with this, they said that they just wanted everyone to hate them at this time as well and planned to achieve as much.
65I was wrong to have gone that far with it without Allie being present,  but I take protecting people from being publicly shamed really seriously. 
66Once Allie was available again though things calmed down much more amicably, and thankfully so, at the time. 
67
68I just want to clarify the events of that incident
69MagicShoelaceToday at 2:45 PM
70Daring's actions are inexcusable, but were preventable.
71Smol FluffToday at 2:46 PM
72Yeah, We understand that now
73But we are getting away from the subject
74Addison DevereToday at 2:46 PM
75We are, yeah
76Smol FluffToday at 2:46 PM
77Elanna, do you understand that the threat you made wasn't acceptable?
78Even if it wasn't intended to be a threat
79MagicShoelaceToday at 2:47 PM
80I just want to clarify I'm not for any of these two. I'm in neither side of them regarding yesterday's matters.
81Smol FluffToday at 2:47 PM
82It came off as such
83Tiamat SixToday at 2:48 PM
84Yes, and I wish it could have been rephrased in a way where the intent would have come across more clearly, no matter how mentally exhausted I was by then.
85Smol FluffToday at 2:49 PM
86Thank you for your honest then, As long as you understand and regret such
87Tiamat SixToday at 2:49 PM
88And still am, mind you.
89Smol FluffToday at 2:49 PM
90Honesty*
91Tiamat SixToday at 2:49 PM
92It's been a long few days for me.
93Smol FluffToday at 2:49 PM
94Nah I understand, all the more reason to wrap it up
95Hahaha
96And then the next part, the miscommunication about intentions
97So, it seems that Aenor thinks that you were constantly trying to urge the arguing on further by entertaining Daring, which at points I can see too, but after reviewing the chat logs a few times, I've learned that Natasha was trying to end it as fast as she could
98As she tried to take Tsuki's way out of drinking for example
99Though, I can understand if you hadn't seen this as the chat was moving super quickly and flooding stuff out of the way
100So I feel the image you have painted of Natasha may be an innacurate one of the previous night
101MagicShoelaceToday at 2:52 PM
102What image are you referring to?
103Smol FluffToday at 2:52 PM
104Your belief that she's a big meanie that just wanted the drama to escalate a bunch
105Tiamat SixToday at 2:52 PM
106I did not at all enjoy the way that argument escalated and did indeed want it to end. Thus, though it may have gotten drowned out, if you check the chat log right after Tsuki suggested ending it with drinks Natasha immediately agreed, right before Daring Blaze went for Natasha again.
107I could not afford to break character, and angry Natasha is a bitch. Dragging the matter away from the proposed resolution made her angrier.
108MagicShoelaceToday at 2:53 PM
109Case closed.
110Tiamat SixToday at 2:53 PM
111It's why she leveled the accusation of sabotage, actually.
112Smol FluffToday at 2:54 PM
113So I think that both of you are owed an apology by the other
114Tiamat SixToday at 2:54 PM
115And asked for everyone besides herself, A'llie and Tsuki to be removed from the room, so that the argument could be settled without further interference.
116So no. I was not trying to create an OOC problem at all.
117On the contrary.
118I do apologize for how I came across however, both for the initial misunderstanding and especially how I came across once worn down a few hours later and largely trying to get things out as quickly as possible, while multitasking and under that much stress.
119Addison DevereToday at 2:58 PM
120I'm glad to see you say this
121Smol FluffToday at 2:58 PM
122Thank you
123Are you willing to accept this Aenor and apologize yourself :o?
124MagicShoelaceToday at 2:59 PM
125It's not to me she has to apologize.
126And not for those reasons either.
127Smol FluffToday at 2:59 PM
128Go on :open_mouth:
129MagicShoelaceToday at 3:00 PM
130So no I'm not willing to accept the apology or apologize to her, no.
131Smol FluffToday at 3:00 PM
132So then what is it that you'd like to see her apologize for and to?
133MagicShoelaceToday at 3:03 PM
134I'd like to see her apologize to Daring and you guys, for making you waste time by purposefully escalating an issue that was very, VERY easy to resolve.  I'd like to see her admit that, AS SHE SAID EARLIER, she purposefully didn't break character, to the point she would much rather see a member leave than just be mature about it.
135Not like 'breaking character' by having Natasha leave would have costed years of development, and as an OFFICER of the FC your goal should be to avoid these issues. But hey.
136Wishful thinking at best.
137Addison DevereToday at 3:05 PM
138An apology to Daring was already made, and by leave do you mean to the point where a member would leave the FC? 
139I just want to make what you're saying here as clear as possible
140MagicShoelaceToday at 3:05 PM
141Yes, leave the FC.
142Addison DevereToday at 3:06 PM
143Daring left after hours of talking in a separate group chat that eventually led to us coming to this sentiment:
144In the simplest terms, when someone says "I meant you no harm by saying that" 
145We accept that this is in fact what they were saying. 
146If someone expresses confusion, we do our best to elaborate on what the subject is. 
147If a person starts to feel hurt OOC by an IC, the wounded party asks if the player of the character meant that as an actual OOC afront, and should they say no, we agree that they truly did not mean harm.
148Daring refused to agree to this
149MagicShoelaceToday at 3:08 PM
150Expected, yeah.
151Addison DevereToday at 3:08 PM
152And when asked what they would propose, they instead said they have nothing else to say
153MagicShoelaceToday at 3:09 PM
154He was frustrated, of course, everyone was, what did you guys expect?
155He had no premise to even start an argument against Natasha that would put him in a favorable place.
156And even if natasha didn't mean to stir more problems when making what they call 'Pedantic backhanded posts' or whatever, she just needed to stop.
157You mess with the bull and you get the horns. You keep provoking the dude, he's going to go far and beyond logic, it's how he is.
158And I THINK neglecting to behave differently, SPECIALLY knowing that he's prone to getting upset is not okay.
159Addison DevereToday at 3:11 PM
160Which is fine, but those horns should remain IC
161Tiamat SixToday at 3:11 PM
162And Daring was provoking Natasha.
163In-character.
164And we've established that in and out of character, this was a pre-existing trend for Daring.
165MagicShoelaceToday at 3:12 PM
166Alright.
167So you knew.
168You knew.
169Tiamat SixToday at 3:13 PM
170No, I didn't.
171I learned after it was too late what was going on with Daring.
172MagicShoelaceToday at 3:13 PM
173You can't be serious.
174Tiamat SixToday at 3:13 PM
175No one told me what happened before with Setta until after the Discord chat began.
176Had I known, I'd have arrived as Elanna instead.
177MagicShoelaceToday at 3:14 PM
178Well, there we go: She didn't know so she will never admit anything. I'll see myself out now.
179Despite admitting earlier she 'couldn't afford to break out of character'
180So just think on those two things.
181Tiamat SixToday at 3:14 PM
182... Addison, could you?
183Smol FluffToday at 3:15 PM
184Alright alright alright
185I do partially agree with LuLu, Natasha. There were points where it seemed like you could've not included little comments at the ends of your emotes that provoked Daring. Though, In Natasha's defense, at that time of the RP, they didn't know that Daring would be taking as much offense to such as they did
186MagicShoelaceToday at 3:16 PM
187Even in character it was highly immature, but alright.
188Tiamat SixToday at 3:16 PM
189I explained what I was doing and why in the other chat.
190Smol FluffToday at 3:17 PM
191That's fine as that's how Natasha is IC
192We can't fault someone for how they behave IC
193It's just a bunch of stuff pilled up to make this amalgamation of shitty events and stuff
194So what I see needs to happen
195Natasha, You need to apologize for provoking Daring when it was clear that you could've backed off and eased up and Lut, you need to apologize for the harsh words you had thrown at Natasha throughout all these arguments
196Tiamat SixToday at 3:19 PM
197Do you mean for doing so in or out of character?
198Smol FluffToday at 3:19 PM
199Out of character
200Tiamat SixToday at 3:19 PM
201Which out of character provoking?
202Smol FluffToday at 3:19 PM
203The little extra lines you added to your emotes weren't necessary
204MagicShoelaceToday at 3:19 PM
205Harsh words? What harsh words?
206Tiamat SixToday at 3:19 PM
207... I thought I went over that with Daring?
208Addison DevereToday at 3:20 PM
209Yes, but it's proving necessary here as well
210MagicShoelaceToday at 3:20 PM
211Let's try to reconcile the statements: "I couldn't afford to break character" and "I didn't know at that point in the RP" Can you reconcile them for us Nat?
212Tiamat SixToday at 3:21 PM
213I did, above.
214Smol FluffToday at 3:21 PM
215Could you do it once more then?
216Tiamat SixToday at 3:22 PM
217I will, but I feel this needs to be said first: If you're not willing to actually listen to what I say and reconsider any perspective on the matter but your own, we have a bigger problem in play.
218
219I stated I was attempting to work toward a resolution to a crisis I could not truly control and was seeking to do so in such a manner that would not break character. Thus, Natasha agreed to solve the problem with drinks, and when others drowned this option out, she requested that all others leave the three of them to settle it, ideally still through drinks.
220At this stage, others were provoking Natasha.
221Though livid, she retained enough clarity to still see there was a problem that needed to be solved and she acted on this as best she could.
222And again, I was not in control of this situation.
223Now. If you want me to defend Natasha as a hypothetical person when she's in that state of mind, I will not.
224This is one of her flaws.
225MagicShoelaceToday at 3:24 PM
226So you're admitting that, instead of 'breaking character' by having her walk out or something small and simple like that, you remained IC and continued to work with someone who is clearly worked up OOC.
227Tiamat SixToday at 3:24 PM
228You're matching up with the concern I expressed.
229Smol FluffToday at 3:25 PM
230So that's a yes? :open_mouth:
231Just to ease my mind a bit
232Tiamat SixToday at 3:25 PM
233I'll wait until it's addressed.
234As I feel no obligation to be made to answer loaded questions with no promise of a mutually agreeable solution being pursued by all parties present.
235MagicShoelaceToday at 3:26 PM
236That's a great way to weasel out of the answer buddy.
237Just like yesterday, instead of actually responding to any argument, you just did this.
238I don't know how I can make my question more clear and specific, for the record.
239Tiamat SixToday at 3:28 PM
240https://www.thoughtco.com/complex-question-fallacy-1689890
241ThoughtCo
242What Is the Fallacy of the Complex Question?
243A complex question is a fallacy in which the answer to a given question presupposes a prior answer to a prior question.
244
245MagicShoelaceToday at 3:28 PM
246And now you'll proceed to link something instead of using your own ways of defeating my argument.
247Tiamat SixToday at 3:28 PM
248"How many times have you beaten your wife? How dare you weasel out of this question."
249MagicShoelaceToday at 3:28 PM
250:thumbsup:
251Addison DevereToday at 3:29 PM
252This is only escalating matters.
253MagicShoelaceToday at 3:29 PM
254Nope, I'm out. You guys don't need any more proof she's just dodging the simple stuff.
255Tiamat SixToday at 3:29 PM
256I can't work with this if this is how Aenor is going to treat me.
257MagicShoelaceToday at 3:29 PM
258I'm one of the most fucking generous people on this planet, dawg.
259Tiamat SixToday at 3:29 PM
260I disagree.
261Addison DevereToday at 3:29 PM
262Please
263Both of you
264Say no more to each other right now
265MagicShoelaceToday at 3:30 PM
266Not only do I entertain your arguments, but if you're right, I'll change my mind. Didn't I change my mind on the Encyclopedia of Eorzea stuff?
267Just make her answer the question Addison.
268Addison DevereToday at 3:30 PM
269I'll say this now because I feel we're losing sight of the goal.
270MagicShoelaceToday at 3:31 PM
271So you're admitting that, instead of 'breaking character' by having her walk out or something small and simple like that, you remained IC and continued to work with someone who is clearly worked up OOC.
272Addison DevereToday at 3:31 PM
273The goal here is that you guys can at the very least tolerate each other OOC and can be IC together still
274MagicShoelaceToday at 3:32 PM
275I can't give a fuck about Nat OOC.
276She argues in bad faith and is very pedantic and inconsiderate, THAT SAID- nothing needs to be fixed. You know I won't antagonize anyone.
277Allie knows I don't cause problems.
278Addison DevereToday at 3:36 PM
279A'llie has known you a lot longer than myself so once she's back I'll let them speak on that. 
280I myself just want people to be able to have an entertaining space to log into every day with the intention being to RP. 
281
282But, if you're saying you can at least tolerate them OOC, then that's good enough for me on that front for your side.
283But, I'm only one person.
284MagicShoelaceToday at 3:36 PM
285Oh yeah. I didn't even want to be here doing this. I can live among people I don't like without issues.
286Smol FluffToday at 3:36 PM
287As long as there isn't drama that sparks up again between you two, I can accept such
288MagicShoelaceToday at 3:36 PM
289But you both saw that, cornered against proof and actual logic, she weaseled out of it.
290We can agree to that, right?
291Tiamat SixToday at 3:37 PM
292That wasn't proof and actual logic. I even linked how it wasn't.
293So no, there's not going to be any agreement on spinning it maliciously like that.
294MagicShoelaceToday at 3:37 PM
295Okay why don't you answer the question for me real quick then?
296Tiamat SixToday at 3:37 PM
297Because that question is an example of the complex question fallacy -- a loaded question.
298It's an attack.
299It's antagonism.
300Addison DevereToday at 3:38 PM
301Tiamat disagrees with the phrasing of the question itself, and will not answer the question because of that disagreement
302MagicShoelaceToday at 3:38 PM
303Okay, would you like me to rephrase it in a way that doesn't make it seem so bad?
304Tiamat SixToday at 3:38 PM
305No. I'd like you to consider that basic conflict resolution demands three simple steps that you've declined to follow, though I consented to them previously here as I did with Daring Blaze.
306https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/resolution-not-conflict/201211/what-makes-conflict-how-are-conflicts-resolved
307Psychology Today
308What Makes Conflict? How Are Conflicts Resolved?
309Couples do best when both partners have strong conflict resolution skills.
310
311MagicShoelaceToday at 3:39 PM
312She does this all the time btw?
313Instead of actually proving me wrong she gish gallops until I get tired.
314Tiamat SixToday at 3:39 PM
315If you refuse to consider that you yourself have done anything wrong and your portrayal of me might not be wholly accurate, there can be no resolution.
316And building a case is not gish galloping. It's basic debate.
317MagicShoelaceToday at 3:39 PM
318I just want you to accept that you neglected to break character on purpose despite knowing Daring was getting worked up.
319Despite all the shade thrown at you DURING the roleplay, can we get you to do that?
320Tiamat SixToday at 3:40 PM
321The person who tries to hold one person alone fully cuplable of a problem like that while denying any degree of personal culpability is never correct.
322You have been trying to hold me as singularly culpable for all of this the entire time, while insisting you've done nothing wrong.
323MagicShoelaceToday at 3:40 PM
324Alright, can you please answer the question, though?
325Tiamat SixToday at 3:40 PM
326No.
327You've done enough.
328MagicShoelaceToday at 3:41 PM
329There, can I leave now?
330Addison DevereToday at 3:41 PM
331While it was on purpose, I don't think Tiamat did so with the intent to further antagonize Daring. 
332They valued staying in character more than the OOC issues that were sparking.
333But did indeed try to end things as quickly as possible IC. 
334
335These are the events as I see them involving Tiamat's perspective
336MagicShoelaceToday at 3:42 PM
337I'm being really generous here, thinking Tiamat is really smart, right?
338If they are bleeding out OOC, you switch to OOC and you put a full stop to it.
339Tiamat SixToday at 3:42 PM
340With the caveat that when I sensed there was an OOC problem after previously checking before I arrived if there would be an OOC problem, I moved to interrupt the IC portion entirely and broached the subject.
341And with good reason.
342As we established with Daring Blaze.
343But this is not about Daring Blaze.
344MagicShoelaceToday at 3:43 PM
345It's about you refusing to answer my question.
346This is my problem.
347You could literally be a little mature and say "Yeah, I fucked up." And we would all be enjoying our ERP by now.
348Tiamat SixToday at 3:43 PM
349Your loaded question while you seek to deny any personal culpability and wrongdoing, yes.
350No, we would not.
351MagicShoelaceToday at 3:43 PM
352But no you're doing this stupid shit.
353Addison DevereToday at 3:44 PM
354This is not going anywhere fruitful
355MagicShoelaceToday at 3:44 PM
356"oh it's a personal attack" despite making a member leave because you "couldn't break character."
357How do we all reconcile these things?
358Addison DevereToday at 3:44 PM
359Daring leaving was not wholly on Tiamat
360Tiamat SixToday at 3:44 PM
361I didn't "make" Daring Blaze leave and I'm not the first person Daring Blaze had that type of problem with.
362MagicShoelaceToday at 3:44 PM
363But we can agree she was a big part of it, right?
364Addison DevereToday at 3:45 PM
365Yes, it is an interaction with Tiamat that sparked the events
366MagicShoelaceToday at 3:45 PM
367Wow, damn.
368Tiamat SixToday at 3:45 PM
369You're still trying to put a problem of that type on the shoulders of just one person while holding to the position that you've done nothing wrong so far.
370That is a twisted framing.
371So no, I won't budge so long as you push for an ultimately unfair and insulting narrative.
372MagicShoelaceToday at 3:46 PM
373I'm arguing this from your side, with the assumption that you're smart and that you want the best for the FC.
374I already said from the beginning that Daring fucked up and I'm not on their side.
375Tiamat SixToday at 3:46 PM
376And for now, I will keep my silence until it's addressed.
377MagicShoelaceToday at 3:46 PM
378But you refuse to acknowledge it, what do I tell you at this point that will get you to realistically admit you fucked up?
379Addison DevereToday at 3:46 PM
380But, there is a lot more to it then just the interactions with Tiamat, there were other things that went into Daring leaving, one of which being the failed attempt at getting Daring and Tiamat to agree to a resolution
381MagicShoelaceToday at 3:47 PM
382Except maybe, it didn't need to get to that point, if Natasha backed the fuck up.
383So let's recap.
384Can I have my two officers here agree, that Natasha is: 
385An Officer, who ON PURPOSE, didn't break IC, despite knowing that Daring Blaze was becoming increasingly upset OOC over the roleplay.
386That also admitted to KNOWING, in this same chat.
387Smol FluffToday at 3:50 PM
388Sorry I am back now
389Yes, we can agree to that, and we've already been discussing how we plan to deal with Natasha about such, she is not getting off scott free as you might believe
390MagicShoelaceToday at 3:51 PM
391So in other words: Natasha admitted to knowing that Daring was becoming upset out of character, and despite this, she chose to do nothing about it with the excuse that she couldn't break character.
392Tiamat SixToday at 3:51 PM
393A'llie, I'm not going to agree to any resolution hinging on the same massive spinning we all agreed that Daring Blaze was wrong for and what Daring Blaze agreed to apologize for.
394MagicShoelaceToday at 3:52 PM
395What a baby.
396Smol FluffToday at 3:52 PM
397But Natasha also isn't this super villian you're painting her out to be
398MagicShoelaceToday at 3:52 PM
399She just needs to admit she fucked up.
400It's that easy.
401Addison DevereToday at 3:52 PM
402Please refrain from name calling, lut :(
403It makes things more difficult for us
404Smol FluffToday at 3:52 PM
405Alright, alright
406Natasha
407MagicShoelaceToday at 3:52 PM
408Show a drop of maturity.
409Smol FluffToday at 3:52 PM
410Do you admit to doing so?
411Tiamat SixToday at 3:52 PM
412See my above statements.
413Smol FluffToday at 3:53 PM
414So you don't agree that you hold partial fault here?
415Tiamat SixToday at 3:53 PM
416I do not consent to further cooperation here until the elephant in the room has been addressed.
417I'm not here to be senselessly villainized and mocked.
418Addison DevereToday at 3:54 PM
419The elephant being your disagreement with Aenor's framing?
420Tiamat SixToday at 3:55 PM
421We're better than this. We're older than this. And it's unfair to expect me to smile and nod to this rate of pointless pettiness and malicious misportrayals.
422MagicShoelaceToday at 3:55 PM
423Holy fuck.
424Tiamat SixToday at 3:56 PM
425You saw the insults yourselves, after all.
426And yet so far, Aenor has successfully kept the focus on me while evading any responsibility.
427In spite of this huge, obvious problem.
428So. Is my stance clear yet?
429MagicShoelaceToday at 3:57 PM
430What am I responsible for according to you?
431Tiamat SixToday at 3:57 PM
432Everything you owe me an apology for, with the tally still growing.
433Addison DevereToday at 3:57 PM
434Aenor, Taimat is asking for some semblance of admittance of wrongdoing or something that you feel you could have done better in the incident
435Is there anything you can offer?
436MagicShoelaceToday at 3:58 PM
437I want Tiamat, to tell me, without linking to some random bullshit site that nobody cares about, what I did wrong according to her.
438Addison DevereToday at 3:58 PM
439Okay
440Tiamat
441Can you clarify?
442Tiamat SixToday at 3:58 PM
443I linked an evidence-based citation on more than one occasion.
444MagicShoelaceToday at 3:58 PM
445Mind you, I told her to tell me what I did wrong yesterday, and the day before. And she refused to do it because I'd spin it in bad faith.
446Tiamat SixToday at 3:59 PM
447Meaning, Aenor is literally ignoring all evidence that does not agree with her stance.
448Which is itself a huge logical fallacy.
449Addison DevereToday at 3:59 PM
450That isn't relevant right now, that is a different discussion on the principles of debate and aren't relevant to making amends
451MagicShoelaceToday at 3:59 PM
452^
453Tiamat SixToday at 3:59 PM
454Except it's also what Aenor has done wrong, in part.
455Both in the initial crisis and all attempts at conflict resolution afterward.
456And is still doing, as of this very second.
457MagicShoelaceToday at 3:59 PM
458Sorry that wasn't polite.
459Okay, can you ignore the fact I'm a nazi, and tell me what I did wrong?
460Because I was THERE when it all happened. So I saw EVERYTHING.
461Tiamat SixToday at 4:00 PM
462"What do you do when you sense a conflict?
463(c) Design Pics/fotosearch
464Source: (c) Design Pics/fotosearch
465In sensitive situations do you sometimes find yourself either arguing or going silent about what you want? Do you hold back from expressing your concerns out of fear of conflict?
466
467This article offers alternatives to fighting when differences and disagreements emerge between people in any venue--work, friendship, home or whereever.
468
469What is conflict? Conflict is disagreement, but contrary to popular belief conflict does not necessarily involve fighting. As I explain in my book From Conflict to Resolution, conflict exists in any situation where facts, desires or fears pull or push participants against each other or in divergent directions.
470
471Bickering, arguing or getting insistent about your point of view indicate someone who is unskilled at handling conflicts in a collaborative way.  So does going silent about your perspective.  Like dropping a ball indicates someone who lacks catching skills or falling on ice skates indicates someone who needs more practice at staying on his feet, talking in an irritated tone of voice, becoming insistent on your way or going silent all indicate skill deficits."
472"What is conflict resolution?
473
474Conflict resolution is the process of trying to find a solution to a conflict.  Ideally conflict resolution is collaborative problem-solving, a cooperative talking-together process that leads to choosing a plan of action that both of you can feel good about.
475
476How can you tell when there is a conflict afoot?
477
478When people sense disagreement they tend to feel uncomfortable. Discomfort, that is, slightly negative emotions, alert you to the reality that a situation of conflict is occurring.  That is, one person wants, thinks or does one thing, and another has a different perspective or prefers a different course of action. 
479
480Decisions therefore are one danger point.  Any time two people need to pick a shared course of action they are at risk for experiencing conflict.
481
482Seeing things differently can also provoke conflict.  Fortunately, there are ways to disagree that prevent conflicts from emerging in these situations.  I write about these in my posting on How To Disagree Agreeably. 
483
484My post on how to say what's on your mind without coming across as critical expands further on how to prevent conflicts engendered by hurt feelings."
485"The three steps of collaborative conflict resolution. 
486
487Here goes: a quick course in collaborative conflict resolution.
488
489First and foremost, watch your emotional tone.  A synonym for conflict resolution is shared problem-solving.  The word "shared" implies cooperation. For the following 3-step process to work, participants need to stay friendly, like they are sitting on the same side of the table facing the problem, never flipping into oppositional or hostile stances toward each other.  That’s key to sustaining the process.
490
491So now, to settle a disagreement without getting mad, sad or anxious, take the following three steps:
492
493Step 1. Recognition that there is a problem that needs to be solved.
494
495Step 2. Exploration of the underlying concerns
496
497Step 3. Creation of a mutually agreeable solution
498
499To illustrate each step let us take an example of a couple, Jim and Barbara, trying to decide on a summer vacation."
500"Step 1.  Recognition of a problem that needs to be solved
501
502To begin a process of conflict resolution you need to recognize that a conflict exists.  Sometimes that's the hardest time to stay in a positive tone of voice.  So if you feel yourself becoming tense or irritated, instead of continuing in a bickering mode, pause and say to yourself, "Here's an opportunity to use my new skills.  My irritation indicates that there's a conflict here!"
503
504                Jim:  Let’s take a trip to Peking.  I want to travel and explore.
505
506                Barbara:  (Sounded alarmed and even irritated) Not me. That sounds awful.  I love to stay at home.  For summer vacation the last thing I would want to do is travel.
507
508Note that the first step in moving forward toward resolving a conflict consists of both sides saying what is initially on their minds.  Both sides speak; both sides listen to the other, even though what they want seems to be in conflict. 
509
510Danger: Participants who at this point head straight for the third step, finding solutions, will find themselves locked in a tug-of-war, a power struggle over whose way will prevail. 
511
512Far better: proceed immediately to step two."
513MagicShoelaceToday at 4:00 PM
514Can we delete these irrelevant posts?
515Tiamat SixToday at 4:01 PM
516"Step 2.  Explore Underlying Concerns
517
518This step requires a change from looking at possible solutions to exploring the underlying concerns that your initial suggestions had been meant to accomplish. Solutions are plans of action.  Concerns are underlying desires, fears, and other factors that matter to you in a given situation.
519
520                Jim:  I was thinking of an exploring vacation because I want to be physically active during our vacation.  At my job I sit at my desk all day. On my vacation I would like to move around, to walk long distances, and to meet new people. Besides, new sights feel invigorating, fun.
521
522                Barbara:  That makes sense.  As for me, I want to stay in one place because I have been working such long hours. I just would like to rest.  I want to relax, to slow down, to recuperate.  I also would love time to read, since I have so little time to read most of the year. "
523Oh, they're highly relevant.
524MagicShoelaceToday at 4:01 PM
525Except I want you to tell me.
526Tiamat SixToday at 4:01 PM
527It was more convenient to link the article than to drop it here, but I'm glad we agree you'll seek to disregard it regardless.
528MagicShoelaceToday at 4:01 PM
529Just, tell me what I did wrong according to you and we can go through it all point by point.
530Tiamat SixToday at 4:01 PM
531"Step 3.  Find a Mutually Agreeable Solution
532
533Agreement and resolution come when the two people involved in a conflict create a plan of action that includes ways to meet the underlying concerns of both parties. 
534
535                Jim:  So I want to be able to move around a lot, to walk, and to see new sights and meet new people.  You want to be able to sit still, to read and relax.  How about if we go to the seacoast, to a beach resort?  You can sit and relax on the beach; I can do beach sports like surfing and volleyball and also take long walks along the shoreline.  You can relax alone in the sun.  I can meet the people sitting near us on the beach, or participating in water sports with me.  We can go to a place that is new for us, which I would like; at the same time we can stay in that one place rather than travel, which you would prefer.
536
537                Barbara: Sounds perfect!  It’s a deal!
538
539Note that even though this couple's eventual solution was different from the initial suggestions of both parties, because the plan of action was responsive the concerns of both people it felt better to both of them than either of their first ideas.  That is, the solution was “win-win” not because one or both of them "got their way" but rather because the solution was responsive to the underlying concerns of both of them."
540"DISRUPTIONS TO THE 3-STEP PROCESS.
541
542In fact, the three steps above have potential pitfalls that are important to avoid.
543
544Pitfalls to avoid in the first step, Expressing Initial Suggestions
545
546several disruptive problems may occur.  One person may never say what they want.  One may present their suggestion as a criticism instead of a request.  And one side (or both) may not listen to the other.
547
548Not saying, not speaking up about what you want, will block launching a satisfactory process.  If no one, or only one and not the other, says what they want, a collaborative conflict resolution process gets aborted. 
549
550At the same time, saying what you don't want or launching the discussion in a critical way also risks veering the conversation off the cooperative pathways.  My posting on Getting Off On the Right Foot so Your Viewpoints Won't Get Left Out offers sentence starters that have highest odds of leading to a productive conflict resolution sequence.
551
552Listening also is essential for the process to move forward.  Listening effectively requires an attitude of taking the other person’s perspective and concerns seriously.  Dismissive listening that brushes away, minimizes or criticizes what the first person has said brings the progress to an immediate halt. My post on listening skills details how to be sure that you are receiving data from others in a way that keeps dialogue moving forward collaboratively.
553
554Tone is also vitally important.  A relaxed friendly tone enables people to think most creatively.  It also encourages generosity.  By contrast, irritation or anger can immediately flip collaborative conflict resolution into oppositional fighting.  In these cases, taking a break is vital so you can both get back to calmly cooperative mode before you continue talking.  I talk about how to keep your emotions in the calm zone in another post."
555"In sum, for an effective launch to cooperative conflict resolution, both sides must express their initial desire or thought, laying out the wishes in a positive (“I would like to …”_), not negative (“You never...”) manner.  Both sides must listen like a sponge, listening to absorb and understand rather than to criticize and brush aside the other’s point of view.  Add symmetry of air time plus a cooperative, friendly emotional tone and it’s likely that Step One will go well.
556
557​Remember, what causes conflicts to create bickering and fighting is typicallly not how challenging the issues are but which route of conflict resolution two people choose to take."
558"The second step, exploration of Underlying Concerns, requires commitment to a process of discovery. The goal is to find out what factors are necessary in order to find a solution that pleases both sides. 
559
560If either person is interested in WINNING instead of in learning each other’s concerns for the benefit of both of you, the process will abort. 
561
562Similarly, if either party listens to the other with a goal of proving “I am right and you are wrong,” the discussion will turn turbulent and end prematurely.  The impulse to win by causing the other to lose is like boulders in a stream of water; it blocks the flow and causes turbulence. 
563
564Step Two also requires the ability to explore a problem in depth instead of leaping to an immediate solution.  Exploration is difficult because it requires people to look below the surface, to ask themselves “Why do I want this?”  Much of a therapist’s work consists of skillfully helping people to explore their underlying concerns, much as a midwife skillfully assists a baby’s emergence from the womb. 
565
566As in the first step, symmetry is vital to successful second-step dialogue.  Both sides must express their underlying concerns; and both sides must listen thoughtfully to the other’s concerns. "
567MagicShoelace left the group.Today at 4:02 PM