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1[13:07] * @Sniper stares at strazh
2[13:08] <@Sniper> Hey mate, do you play the game? 
3[13:09] <strazh> yes, frequently
4[13:09] <strazh> kind of frustrating i can't play it on linux, but my windows computers all run it fine
5[13:09] <@Sniper> What's with the hate mongering?
6[13:10] <strazh> i dont really consider pointing out flaws in what's said hate mongering
7[13:10] <@Sniper> Someone else on the team is working on linux support right now, and we're dealing with a compiler issue with the engine at the moment.
8[13:10] * Nero|tablet (~nero@gamesurge-5e7d1783.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) Quit (Ping timeout)
9[13:10] <strazh> yes, i read that on the official forums
10[13:10] <@Sniper> I think you're more or less a troll.
11[13:11] <strazh> You're entitled to your opinion.
12[13:12] <@Sniper> You've listened to one side of the story, and finalized your opinion and decided to lash out from it. Pretty fair person you are!
13[13:12] <@Sniper> Every team out there has arguments.
14[13:13] <MirroR> i have seen this scenario before, someone says something about the mod that isnt right then he is marked as a troll
15[13:13] <strazh> Historically I don't believe in fairness, fairness was explained to me as equal distribution of limited resources; usually when they belong to me.
16[13:14] <@duggles> nice non-sequitor
17[13:15] <strazh> Probably more important things to do than heckle me on IRC, I personally would focus on PR or the cause of disagreements.
18[13:15] <@Dynamite> are there game issues with the linux client? I recall only the engine being tricky to clean up
19[13:16] <@duggles> Dynamite: vgui2 is misbehaving, fonts are incorrect, and the sound system is unloading improperly
20[13:16] <@duggles> there may be other problems but the vgui one is blocking me from properly testing
21[13:17] <@Sniper> strazh: Not heckling - I just don't believe you're a member of the community.
22[13:17] <@Sniper> If you're here to stir things up, you're not welcome. 
23[13:17] <@Dynamite> duggles, what is the problem with vgui?
24[13:18] <strazh> You're also entitled to that opinion, though I can't really expect you to keep track of my name collection.
25[13:18] <@Sniper> If you're here to talk about Sven Co-op, feel free to stay.
26[13:18] <@duggles> Dynamite: not sure, seems to segfault on startup
27[13:19] <@duggles> probably skmething to do with fonts
28[13:19] <@duggles> font are poop :(
29[13:19] <@Dynamite> are you able to debug it?
30[13:20] <@duggles> adam's been helping me
31[13:20] <@duggles> but he's at work now
32[13:20] <strazh> It is good to see that the linux client is being worked on, it's the feature I'm looking forward most to besides the svc_bad fix.
33[13:20] <@duggles> and the drama over the weekend distracted us
34[13:20] <@Dynamite> there was drama?! :D
35[13:20] <@duggles> ikr
36[13:21] <@Sniper> We've known about the SVC_BAD problem for quite a while. I worked with Sam to find a fix for it.
37[13:22] <@Sniper> There were some size issues in the engine's networking of messages, should be hopefully fixed.
38[13:22] <@Sniper> If it's not fixed we'll have to dig deeper.
39[13:22] <strazh> Sounds good.
40[13:24] <@Sniper> http://forums.svencoop.com/showthread.php/43812-Next-Engine-Game-Update-ETA-and-General-News?p=520115&viewfull=1#post520115
41[13:24] <@Sniper> Fixed the prime cause of svc_bad drops. (Hopefully.)
42[13:24] <@Sniper> Key word in that sentence is hopefully.
43[13:25] <@Dynamite> how long is solo banned for?
44[13:25] <@Sniper> The other issue is metamod might also cause a similar problem. 
45[13:25] <MirroR> i wanna know that too
46[13:27] <+Misfire> as a note: I've definitely experienced svc_bad on non-metamod - sometimes more so than on metamod
47[13:27] <strazh> I don't think banning solo accomplishes much, most of the hotter roasting comments arn't even his.
48[13:27] <@Sniper> Yep that's understood - I'm just stating that some metamod plugins could cause the issue.
49[13:27] <@Sniper> (i.e. corrupted data)
50[13:29] <@Sniper> Contrary from the bullshit posted in random areas, we're not trying to kill off metamod
51[13:30] <@Sniper> There was a joke a long time ago among the team that we should crash the game if SCXPM was being used
52[13:30] <@Sniper> (Silencer is a team member)
53[13:31] <@Sniper> We've supported metamod throughout the game's history though, compiling custom versions and sending out code headers from the game dlls to developers
54[13:31] <@Sniper> There was fear that if we were to make game breaking changes in the engine, metamod might no longer work.
55[13:32] <@Sniper> That's why the angelscript-based server plugin functionality was put together
56[13:32] <strazh> A lot of the major servers depend on metamod, so that seems like a valid concern.
57[13:32] <@Sniper> angelscript probably has, in some ways, more power than metamod (minus dll files)
58[13:33] <@Sniper> The goal was to have numerous svencoop game hooks exposed to the angelscript plugins, to make things a bit easier to get tasks accomplished.
59[13:34] <@Sniper> Though angelscript's primary purpose is to provide a mini HLSDK on the mapper level.
60[13:35] <strazh> I don't know how important that would be, few people remaining in the community can make maps; and the ones that can are really talented.
61[13:36] <@Sniper> There are plenty of people in the community that can create levels. The game is now free and always available, so that's not stopping new people from learning.
62[13:36] <strazh> Rushing low size patches that fix individual problems on a biweekly (week a - test, week b - release or revise) might alleviate some of the tension in the community.
63[13:37] <@Sniper> Our documentation is shit though, that's what I'm spending my time on these days.
64[13:38] <@Sniper> That's a shared opinion on the team. We definitely want to release updates more frequently.
65[13:38] <@Deepflame|AFK> As someone who works at a company where a weekly release schedule is a thing, beware :P
66[13:38] <@Deepflame|AFK> The deadlines are sufficiently crushing that you start outputting bugs
67[13:39] <@Deepflame|AFK> And the community has in turn become quite angry (reasonably so)
68[13:39] <@Sniper> Right, that's the other issue.
69[13:39] <strazh> Soft deadlines are a good suggestion, since theres no money involved theres no reason to consider hard deadlines
70[13:39] <@Sniper> We're aiming for a goal of one release per month, but more than likely it's going to be bi-monthly.
71[13:40] <@Dynamite> every other month seems reasonable
72[13:40] <@Deepflame|AFK> So one project is now slowly migrating towards a stable and dev branch solution, where stable is basically left untouched and people can deal with the problems there, while dev maintains its weekly march, until it's more-or-less stable worthy
73[13:40] <@Sniper> There's a few programmers active, but right now I'm not working on the code base.
74[13:40] <@Deepflame|AFK> And the other project is basically not updating right now while we actually work out the appropriate process
75[13:40] <@Sniper> My focuses are on the documentation / website.
76[13:41] <strazh> Maybe post some 'available positions' for people able to accomplish tasks like working on the code, as frustrating as it is for members of the team to have him around, solo was getting a lot of work done.
77[13:41] * Deepflame|AFK is now known as Deepflame
78[13:42] <@Sniper> Solo was very vocal about the amount of work he got done.
79[13:42] <@Sniper> However, if you can understand where I'm coming from, before Solokiller joined the team we had mega changelogs then too.
80[13:42] <strazh> Being vocal about accomplishments helps the community be at ease, people feel like things are actually getting done
81[13:42] <@Sniper> Solokiller was a great asset but he's not the only programmer on the team.
82[13:43] <+Misfire> we love when shit gets done
83[13:43] <strazh> I don't know if I'd prioratize website/documentation when there's large bugs and unsupported devices; but that's just me.
84[13:43] <@Sniper> See, the problem with communication is that when there are agreements, people generally don't say anything.
85[13:43] <@Deepflame> Poor documentation leads to more bugs
86[13:43] <@Sniper> When there are disagreements, then it draws attention and focus.
87[13:44] <strazh> I do agree with that too, deepflame
88[13:44] * asdfffdsa (~computer@gamesurge-6eba9827.bing.east.verizon.net) has joined #svencoop
89[13:44] <@Sniper> I can assure you we've had far more many agreements than disagreements. Otherwise Sam wouldn't have been on the team.
90[13:44] <@Sniper> Most of our work is currently conducted through our BTS
91[13:45] <@Sniper> Tasks are assigned and requests are considered (from other team members, or taken straight from the commmunity) on there.
92[13:45] <@Sniper> We do have a system in place, it works pretty well. 
93[13:46] <@Sniper> Anyway, my focus already is on the website/documentation as I said.
94[13:46] <@Sniper> I've put a lot of time into it already, still a lot of work left to do. 
95[13:46] <strazh> I'd locate someone good at code to work on things there while you handle website/documentation then.
96[13:47] <@Sniper> Part of the reason why we're switching to a new website (other than that the current one is a piece of shit from 2001) is that we're dealing with a lot of bot spam.
97[13:47] <@Sniper> The new website will be integrated with Steam (there's a bunch of backend programming that has to happen so that avatars, user profile data, etc can get passed through Valve's web api)
98[13:50] <@Sniper> Right now the forums have all of china blocked
99[13:50] <@Deepflame> xD
100[13:50] <@Deepflame> So much distress over a free game :(
101[13:51] <@Sniper> Yeah, makes you wonder why we even bother
102[13:51] <@Sniper> But, you know, I should kill myself because people on the internet told me to. 
103[13:52] <@Sniper> </sarcasm>
104[13:52] <@Deepflame> Seems reasonable
105[13:52] <strazh> dedication to the cause is a good reason to bother, as long as you're looking out for the project
106[13:52] <MirroR> what you expect from modern people
107[13:52] <+Misfire> its the internet
108[13:53] <+Misfire> 13 year olds fuck my mom every night
109[13:53] <@Sniper> Now I have to go out to my garage and put a wheel back on my xterra, because I have to get it towed. blargh
110[13:53] * @Sniper runs away
111[13:53] <strazh> internet society usually tells you to kill yourself on hourly basis
112[13:53] <MirroR> how many deaththreats im getting too monthly
113[13:53] <MirroR> too many
114[13:54] <strazh> I get a lot, also threats of having my accounts seized and ransomed, and worst of all
115[13:54] <strazh> insurance and credit card offers
116[13:54] <+Misfire> its the new slang of the internet
117[13:54] <+Misfire> look at any leafy video
118[13:54] <+Misfire> lol
119[13:54] <MirroR> best thing was that one lunatic threattened to put some neonazis find me and torture me because he thinks im planning against him
120[13:54] <MirroR> internet is full of crazies
121[13:54] <strazh> generally "honestly, mate, kill yourself" means "you're a popular guy"
122[13:55] <MirroR> most of em just talk cause its easy to say stuff behind nickname
123[13:56] <strazh> To be fair, when you don't those threats come to your face; or people recognize you and know who to censor
124[13:56] <MirroR> its easy to act big if your face isnt showing
125[13:56] <strazh> I have an easier time acting big when my face is on the line :p
126[13:57] <@Dynamite> so this guy, right
127[13:57] <@Dynamite> cannons me
128[13:57] <@Dynamite> but I 2-gated him
129[13:57] <@Sniper> BTW - I receive no donation money. No one on the team does.
130[13:57] <+Misfire> Dynamite, cheeser?
131[13:57] <@Sniper> The donation fund pays for the main website (I have nothing to do with it)
132[13:57] <@Dynamite> and then he didnt have minerals right and then I beat him cuz he couldn't make cannons near my base :)
133[13:57] <@Dynamite> Misfire, yes, we both cheesed :)
134[13:57] <+Misfire> lol
135[13:58] <@Dynamite> proxy 2-gate
136[13:58] <@Sniper> Donation money was used to pay for broken hard drives in the past, and some software licenses I believe. Otherwise, it's mainly the website draining the funds.
137[13:58] <@Sniper> I think I've probably spent a little over $7000 on the forums so far
138[13:58] <@Sniper> Not exactly cheap
139[13:59] <+Misfire> 7000 on forums
140[13:59] <+Misfire> damn
141[13:59] <+Misfire> i assume thats over 10 years time
142[13:59] <@Sniper> Let me check...
143[13:59] <@Sniper> 6 years
144[14:00] <@Sniper> about $100 a month
145[14:00] <+Misfire> ah i see, adds up quickly
146[14:00] <strazh> lot of money, hopefully the new design will reduce costs
147[14:00] <@Sniper> The servers have been running since 2010
148[14:00] <@Sniper> That's just the hosting cost
149[14:01] <@Sniper> I'm looking into switching to SSL, so that'll probably cost more money as well
150[14:01] <@Dynamite> use that new TLS stuff?
151[14:01] <@Dynamite> let's encrypt. That is suppose to be free
152[14:01] <@Sniper> (HTTPS for everyone)
153[14:01] <@Sniper> I'm looking into that too, but I think last time I checked it wasn't allowing new registrations
154[14:02] <@Sniper> I'm not quite ready for that yet, still planning on finishing the website before I get that stuff together
155[14:02] <@Sniper> (I picture that being the last step)
156[14:02] <@Dynamite> new forum then too?
157[14:02] <@Sniper> The new website is a giant forum
158[14:02] <@Sniper> basically
159[14:03] <@Dynamite> may I reserve user ID 69?
160[14:03] <@Sniper> lels
161[14:03] <@Dynamite> =)
162[14:09] <strazh> speaking of website, you're up to SEO standards right
163[14:16] <@Dynamite> now THAT'S how you cannon :D
164[14:16] <@Dynamite> teehee
165[14:17] <@Dynamite> I'm a terrible person
166[14:18] * Bucky21659 (~Bucky2156@gamesurge-efcbd5f0.br.br.cox.net) has joined #svencoop
167[14:20] * Bucky (~Bucky2156@gamesurge-efcbd5f0.br.br.cox.net) Quit (Ping timeout)
168[14:25] <@Sniper> <strazh> speaking of website, you're up to SEO standards right
169[14:25] * Pool is now known as Puchi
170[14:25] <@Sniper> The current website was created in 2001
171[14:26] <@Sniper> It's pretty bad, yep.
172[14:27] * Nero|tablet (~nero@h215n1.eskilstunaenergi.ias.bredband.telia.com) has joined #svencoop
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175[14:28] * Bucky21659 is now known as Bucky
176[14:31] <strazh> its a beautiful day outside, i think i might have a cigar
177[14:33] <@Sniper> Interesting, everyone thinks I'm banning people
178[14:34] <strazh> where
179[14:34] <@Sniper> Oh that lovely reddit thread
180[14:34] <strazh> reddits pretty extremist, while it has valid points I wouldn't worry too much about it.
181[14:35] <strazh> the main focus should be on the product 
182[14:35] <@Sniper> I'm not taking it too seriously here, because it looks more like a somethingawful post 
183[14:36] <@Sniper> People seem to think I'm the only team member though... interesting
184[14:36] <strazh> You're kind of the 'face' of sven co-op, the big boss.
185[14:37] <strazh> Even considering the team as a democracy you're the president to everyone else.
186[14:37] <@Sniper> All of this is pretty weird, because he wanted to never talk about the situation in public. 
187[14:37] <@Sniper> He said he deleted the source code, but he started posting snippets of it in our forums
188[14:37] <@Sniper> Adam questioned him about it, and then this all started up
189[14:38] <strazh> I wouldn't blame it entirely on solo, the communitys been edgy for a while.
190[14:38] <@Sniper> That's my perspective anyway
191[14:38] <strazh> Solo's posts helps people diagnose problems and understand them, and while it's frustrating that he'd keep 'team assets' the overall help seems more important
192[14:38] <@Sniper> He basically said all of our agreements meant nothing because this isn't a real company
193[14:39] <@Sniper> Yes but that should be the team's job, he's no longer on the team
194[14:39] <@Sniper> We do make strives to answer questions, and yes, he usually beats us to it.
195[14:40] <@Sniper> But we've got to work on the game too.
196[14:40] <@Sniper> He didn't want to be on the team, so it's his choice. Just pretty shitty that he's doing this.
197[14:41] <@Sniper> http://puu.sh/phXl9/c0b1888b47.jpg
198[14:41] <@Sniper> He's definitely not the victim here. He actually just wanted to take over the mod.
199[14:41] <strazh> he's providing what many consider to be valuable documentation as a freelance, public viewing of the source would do the same thing
200[14:42] <@Sniper> Our source code is closed to public viewing. 
201[14:42] <@Sniper> We have signed agreements with Valve that we need to maintain.
202[14:42] <strazh> Yeah.
203[14:43] <@Sniper> Also regarding the DMCA stuff - pretty sure we've got everything out of the game. There might be a few things still in there, but we'll remove them as necessary.
204[14:43] <@duggles> well, he had plenty of time to write this documentation whilst he was on the team. there were months where he did nothing to angelscript where he could have been making the docs (or even finishing unfinished angelscript things like database access)
205[14:43] <strazh> I'm not going to argue the finer points of NDA but I've seen the HL1 source code
206[14:44] <strazh> why complain about free work, even if he isn't on the team if his contributions are helping then I'd praise them
207[14:44] <@Sniper> It's our intellectual property, and it's how we operate
208[14:45] <@Sniper> He was free to take his source code contributions. He asked if he could use it in another project. No one complained.
209[14:46] <strazh> Did you do anything to secure the rights to your intellectual property
210[14:46] <@Sniper> I'm assuming cryogenicneuron is cryokeen, or just simply keen
211[14:46] <strazh> 100% keen
212[14:46] <@Sniper> He was the reason why I joined the team. He made a cool map.
213[14:46] <+Misfire> keen was why you joined the team?
214[14:46] <@Sniper> I've had no beef with him. 
215[14:47] <@Sniper> Yep
216[14:47] <MirroR> keen uses always cry names
217[14:47] <@Sniper> Tunnel was one of my favorite maps (at the time)
218[14:47] <+Misfire> ah didn't know 
219[14:48] <@Sniper> I've actually tried to contact Keen when he was banned from the forums
220[14:48] <@Sniper> He usually gets banned from our forums on a regular basis
221[14:49] <@Sniper> Sometimes I haven't agreed with the banning, and I tried to talk to him a few times to find out what was going on
222[14:49] <MirroR> his real life issues make big contrast what he does online
223[14:49] <@Sniper> But he's posted some really terrible stuff lately. I think he has some chemical dependence issues or something.
224[14:50] <strazh> He's had issues with chems in the past, and he's outspoken without thinking of his word choice.
225[14:50] <@Sniper> He always loves to joke about taking drugs
226[14:50] <MirroR> he still has
227[14:50] <strazh> dosen't joke about the drugs, he's all srs about that
228[14:50] <MirroR> and he isnt quite sane anymore reason i got in big fight with him
229[14:51] <@Sniper> I don't usually ban people from the message forums. I usually target spam bots when possible, but I left the forum admins take care of the community. That's what they like doing and they're good at it.
230[14:51] <MirroR> bit too harsh sometimes
231[14:51] <@Sniper> *let the forum admins
232[14:51] <Aurora^> I'd say a person's arguments ought to be judged on their own weight without giving any regard to who it is or what they're smoking
233[14:51] <MirroR> yea thats actually true
234[14:51] <@Sniper> Right, I like Keen's stuff usually
235[14:52] <strazh> Keen manages insight even when he's raving about 5chan.bsp being the greatest
236[14:52] <@Sniper> Anyway I've tried to contact him several times, but he doesn't respond. No idea.
237[14:54] <@Sniper> His map is still in the mod
238[14:54] <@Sniper> It's a pretty good map
239[14:54] <strazh> He makes good stuff from time to time, sectore was pretty good
240[14:54] <@Sniper> So, anyway, no idea what's going on there, can't help him.
241[14:55] <strazh> horsecock_b7 and his recent work wern't his finest moments, but they did help a lot of people get inspiration for 'higher quality' maps with his innovative use of things
242[14:55] <MirroR> i dont like him personally anymore but i have to say in past
243[14:55] <MirroR> he has done some good maps
244[14:55] <MirroR> newest map of his was total nightmare though
245[14:55] <MirroR> well few new maps
246[14:55] <strazh> yeah i told him his maps starting with 5chan have been trash
247[14:56] <strazh> its just a bunch of memes plastered on what could be a good idea; but the good idea isn't finished
248[14:56] <MirroR> yea
249[14:56] <MirroR> i really hated coldburn too
250[14:56] <MirroR> eventhough it had good idea
251[14:56] <MirroR> keen's problem with mapping is too that he copy pastes same areas
252[14:56] <MirroR> all over again
253[14:56] <MirroR> from older maps of his
254[14:57] <strazh> i can summarize his recent maps with "really good use of func_vehicle" "unique minigame" "atmosphere"
255[14:57] <strazh> I always do like new content, and even then I redo the rooms instead of making a release
256[14:57] <strazh> thats why I dont have any maps out
257[14:58] <MirroR> i dont have any maps out cause i dont have enough focus or motivation
258[14:58] <MirroR> twice tried now i almost did complete one but broke it
259[14:58] <strazh> I got a mix of real-life things and server/client side issues in sven that also prevent
260[14:59] * asdfffdsa (~computer@gamesurge-6eba9827.bing.east.verizon.net) Quit (Quit: Leaving.)
261[14:59] <@Sniper> We're still working with the half-life engine here, so there's a lot of problems that we're fixing that still exist in HL1.
262[15:00] <@Sniper> The goal for most of the projects has been to kind of replace components in the engine piece by piece. 
263[15:01] <@Sniper> We might not be able to fix every problem in the game (without changing how the networking works), but things are improving 
264[15:01] <@Sniper> Some issues are lower priority than others, we can't fix all problems at once. People don't understand this.
265[15:04] <@Sniper> The update following this one has a new NPC (Geneworm Boss), some new engine features (I implemented gl_overbright - with an experimental gl_ovebright for models), along with entity point lighting that accounts for brush models, hopefully a new model update to support TGA (I've got the code outlined for what needs to be modified)
266[15:04] <@Sniper> That's on my docket for now, but the website is getting worked on in the meantime
267[15:07] <@Sniper> The geneworm was actually a huge pain in the ass to program, because I had to extract the entity dimensions with a debugger attached to gearbox's build of the game
268[15:08] <@Sniper> They don't have that information in the FGD, it's all floating points
269[15:08] * LastResort (~kvirc@gamesurge-d87584b8.rochester.res.rr.com) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
270[15:08] <@Sniper> http://www.svencoop.com/davemcd/50/entity_brushmodel_lighting.jpg
271[15:09] * LastResort (~kvirc@gamesurge-d87584b8.rochester.res.rr.com) has joined #svencoop
272[15:09] * @Dynamite (~no@dynamite.user.gamesurge) Quit (Signed off)
273[15:09] <@Sniper> http://www.svencoop.com/davemcd/50/of6a5-2016-03-27-0012.jpg
274[15:09] <strazh> I don't know how much demand there is for geneworm, though I have to admit that's a lot of work to bring it up
275[15:09] * Nero|tablet (~nero@gamesurge-6d4f5170.eskilstunaenergi.ias.bredband.telia.com) Quit (Ping timeout)
276[15:09] <@Sniper> I might tweak the eyeball lighting a bit, it's not the same shade as the original
277[15:10] <strazh> The most common complaint I see is "svc_bad needs an immediate fix" and that there arn't any hotfixes ever
278[15:10] <@Sniper> Yeah that's something we're addressing. Keep in mind we're handling a merge from Sam's updates.
279[15:11] <@Sniper> As far as I'm concerned, we don't have to fix anything now - we just have to get the release out.
280[15:12] <@Sniper> (Since it's fixed...)
281[15:12] <@Sniper> We can't fix it unless it's released. >_<
282[15:12] <@Sniper> Well, *hopefully* fixed, that is.
283[15:12] <strazh> I'd release what you have ready either now or soon, and keep working on the rest of the planned update
284[15:13] <strazh> If it's new and i works it dosen't make any sense to delay it
285[15:13] <@duggles> well
286[15:13] <@Sniper> Regarding the geneworm - it hasn't been properly tested yet, and so it'll need to wait until the next patch
287[15:13] <@Sniper> strazh: The point I was trying to make is that we're doing that
288[15:13] <@Sniper> We ran into some conflicts getting the engine to compile, and that's getting sorted out
289[15:14] <@Sniper> Software renderering was just removed, as well as a lot of other junk
290[15:14] <@Sniper> (per the changelog published)
291[15:16] <@Sniper> That's actually the first step in the grander plan
292[15:17] <strazh> I'm just saying with the steady decline of players it might be a good idea to prioratize stability
293[15:17] <@Sniper> We needed to simplify the engine's code base so we can cut out the fat and focus on the good parts
294[15:17] <@Sniper> Looking at our stats, our player base has been pretty constant. We spiked to 6500 players on release day, but we get around 600 to 700 on the weekends. 
295[15:17] <@Sniper> That's more than most games on Steam
296[15:18] <strazh> The last time I saw this conversation it was 900-1000 on the weekends
297[15:18] <@Sniper> Still well within the margin of error there, I'd say
298[15:18] <@duggles> https://steamdb.info/app/225840/graphs/
299[15:18] <@Sniper> More people show up during releases to see new content, that's well understood
300[15:19] <@duggles> it hasn't been over 1000 in a few months
301[15:19] <@duggles> oh wow
302[15:19] <@duggles> we broke a million owners in may
303[15:19] <@Sniper> yeah
304[15:19] * @duggles hands out party hats
305[15:19] <@duggles> i didn't realise :D
306[15:20] <Aurora^> Time to party
307[15:23] <+Misfire> lol
308[15:23] * asdfffdsa (~computer@gamesurge-6eba9827.bing.east.verizon.net) has joined #svencoop
309[15:23] <strazh> someone get the airhorns
310[15:29] <MirroR> thats bit insignificant but *clap clap clap*
311[15:54] * @Puchi blows into a vuvuzela
312[16:26] * asdfffdsa (~computer@gamesurge-6eba9827.bing.east.verizon.net) Quit (Quit: Leaving.)
313[17:03] * MirroR (~mirror@gamesurge-e0850bd9.dhcp.inet.fi) Quit (Quit: Back to eating brains and breaking hearts i quess)
314[17:19] * strazh (~strazh@gamesurge-7fbcaee3.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) Quit (Ping timeout)
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318[17:44] * strazh (~strazh@gamesurge-7fbcaee3.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) has joined #svencoop
319[17:47] <strazh> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6865091/mybrand.jpg
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323[19:39] * ChanServ sets mode: +o Dynamite
324[19:40] <@Dynamite> mmm
325[19:40] <@Dynamite> national day potatoes
326[20:12] * ArcheKruz (~Valerie@gamesurge-708ba710.ctinets.com) has joined #svencoop
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331[20:53] <Nero|> "The other issue is metamod might also cause a similar problem. " Make Angelscript >>>> metamod plz kthx
332[20:53] <Nero|> I dun like using 3rd party stuff :[
333[20:56] <@duggles> what's AS missing to make it >>>> metamod?
334[20:56] <@duggles> database access is 'in progress'
335[21:02] <Nero|> yeh pretty much that
336[21:02] <Nero|> and some hooks
337[21:02] <Nero|> sql+hookers
338[21:02] <@duggles> 'in progress' :)
339[21:02] <Nero|> I do realize it was supposed to be for mappers, but I think it should be more than that
340[21:02] <Nero|> *fap fap fap*
341[21:02] <@duggles> I've started small and am looking into getting the forcepmodel pseudo-cvar exposed
342[21:03] <@duggles> (for nico)
343[21:03] <@duggles> I've looked through the github pages too and have made a list of the hook requests/api changes
344[21:03] <@duggles> hopefully I'll make some progress on those during this week
345[21:04] <Nero|> oh right, I was gonna add another hook reequest: impulse :3
346[21:04] <@duggles> that's a biiiig command
347[21:05] <Nero|> eg: Override the flashlight with my custom flashlight/nightvision
348[21:05] <Nero|> *fap fap fap*
349[21:05] <Nero|> and give custom weapons/ammo with 101
350[21:10] <Nero|> speak "scientist/hellofreeman(e50) ushouldsee(s60e81) freeman(s50)"
351[21:10] <Nero|> AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA
352[21:11] <Nero|> lermao
353[21:11] <@duggles> i thought you got a custom flashlight working?
354[21:11] <@duggles> or was that a hack to make it look like nightvision?
355[21:12] <Nero|> nah it's real, but it has a command
356[21:12] <Nero|> .flashlight
357[21:12] <Nero|> would be coo if players turn on that/NV when using impulse 100
358[21:12] <@duggles> ahh
359[21:12] <Nero|> They'd be liek "ehrmagerhd best server ever olol"
360[21:14] <@duggles> i see where that is
361[21:14] <@duggles> i'll have to see if there are difficulties/security concerns about doing that
362[21:14] <@duggles> (my knowledge of the codebase is not great, I'm still learning it)
363[21:15] <Nero|> <3
364[21:17] <Nero|> formatex(alt_sound_file_name, TOK_LENGTH + 10 + 32, "../%s_addons/%s", modname, sound_file_name)
365[21:17] <Nero|> fml
366[21:17] <Nero|> That one extra 's' ruins it :[
367[21:19] <Nero|> WARNING! sound/zelda/look.wav is causing runtime sample conversion!
368[21:19] <Nero|> S_LoadSound: Couldn't load /sound/zelda/_period.wav
369[21:19] <Nero|> wat
370[21:19] <@duggles> addon brah
371[21:19] <Nero|> yeh
372[21:19] <Nero|> The sound plays, so why the error
373[21:19] <Nero|> warning|
374[21:20] <@duggles> 21:19:37 <     Nero|> WARNING! sound/zelda/look.wav is causing runtime sample conversion!
375[21:20] <@duggles> i suspect that is the problem?
376[21:20] <@duggles> maybe the error "Couldn't load" is thrown if any exception happend
377[21:20] <@duggles> (idk lol)
378[21:20] <Nero|> But why would it load a wav called _period.wav D:
379[21:21] <Nero|> Isn't even in the plugin :[
380[21:21] <@duggles> is it a sentence?
381[21:21] <Nero|> noes
382[21:21] <Nero|> just a
383[21:21] <@duggles> huh
384[21:22] <Nero|> look;		sound/zelda/look.wav;
385[21:22] <Nero|> (sank sounds)
386[21:23] <@duggles> the only place i can see _period is in the sentence parser
387[21:23] <@duggles> and it should only be used if it meets a '.' in the sentence :/
388[21:25] <Nero|> exactly
389[21:25] <Nero|> *shrug* sound still plays so liek wutevaaaaaaa
390[21:25] <@duggles> hmm
391[21:30] <@duggles> Nero|: what file is that meant to be?
392[21:31] <@Sniper> S_LoadSound: Couldn't load /sound/zelda/_period.wav
393[21:32] <@Sniper> You shouldn't have this output at all
394[21:32] <@Sniper> This is from the engine, not Sven Co-op's sound system
395[21:33] <Nero|> lawl
396[21:33] <@Sniper> I'm guessing this is from metamod? 
397[21:33] <@Sniper> Server plugin?
398[21:33] <@Sniper> (I didn't read the entire chat)
399[21:33] <Nero|> yeah
400[21:33] <Nero|> sank sounds
401[21:34] <@Sniper> yeah if you're still using the old sound system, you'll need to precache that stuff...
402[21:34] <Nero|> you say a word/sentence and a sound plays
403[21:34] <Nero|> But there are only a few of them that say this D:
404[21:34] <@duggles> 21:22:14 <     Nero|> look;IIsound/zelda/look.wav;
405[21:34] <@duggles> that doesn't look like a sentence though
406[21:35] <Nero|> noes
407[21:36] <@duggles> if you're trying to get a sound to play, have a look at the Vox.as script
408[21:36] <Nero|> Hmm, seems as though all .wavs say
409[21:36] <Nero|> S_LoadSound: Couldn't load /sound/folder/_period.wav
410[21:37] <Nero|> It comes up right after the sound has been played
411[21:37] <@duggles> can you paste me a bit of the script to see what it's doing?
412[21:37] <Nero|> Guess I'll ask the plugincreator
413[21:37] <Nero|> ait
414[21:37] <@duggles> that too
415[21:37] <nico> thanks duggles 
416[21:38] <Nero|> http://pastebin.com/qtYUWwZ0
417[21:39] <@duggles> *   amx_sound_help          -    prints all available sounds to console
418[21:39] <@duggles> wat
419[21:39] <Nero|> all the triggers that the server has defined
420[21:40] <@duggles> this is amx
421[21:40] <@duggles> which uses metamod
422[21:40] <Nero|> jes?
423[21:40] <@duggles> and that's probably why it is using the engine's sound engine
424[21:41] <@duggles> many years ago sniper implemented a separate sound engine for SC, which didn't live in the engine
425[21:43] <@duggles> i'm not sure why it's using the old sound engine now... maybe there's a problem with the headers in the modified metamod version? idk. we'll have to investigate that
426[21:43] <@duggles> Sniper: ^
427[21:48] <Nero|> oh
428[21:48] <Nero|> most likely *pretends to know wat am talking aboot*
429[21:51] * elchupacabra (~tomchattl@elchupacabra.bites.gamesurge) Quit (Ping timeout)
430[21:51] <@duggles> i just had a quick look through the source code
431[21:51] <@duggles> (of sank sounds)
432[21:52] <@duggles> the way it works is it looks at the type of file it is supposed to play, then it sends a client command 
433[21:52] * elchupacabra (~tomchattl@elchupacabra.bites.gamesurge) has joined #svencoop
434[21:53] <nico> 22:40   duggles │ this is amx
435[21:53] <nico> can you like
436[21:53] <nico> ban amx
437[21:53] <@duggles> hehe
438[21:53] <@duggles> no
439[21:53] <@duggles> imagine the reddit threads
440[21:54] <nico> angelscript is the way to go
441[21:54] <nico> amx needs to die
442[21:54] <nico> it already died in sven
443[21:54] <nico> seriously
444[21:54] <@duggles> AS needs to be polished up a bit first
445[21:54] <nico> yes
446[21:54] <nico> but it is good enough
447[21:54] <nico> for a non-xp mod server
448[21:54] <@duggles> like getting database support, hooks, etc.
449[21:54] <nico> sqlite first pls
450[21:55] <@duggles> but the problem is that there is so much stuff already written in AMXX it would be cruel to just ban it
451[21:55] <@duggles> and would piss off a lot of server ops too
452[21:55] <nico> yes it needs fixing and polishing but seriously the most of the amxx plugins can be implemented in as already
453[21:55] <@duggles> since they would have to rewrite whatever plugins they may use
454[21:55] <nico> I also do that and my server is .as only
455[21:55] <@duggles> sqlite and mysql are on my todo list
456[21:55] <nico> there is no need for amxx anymore
457[21:56] <@duggles> solokiller wrote a lot of the glue between AS and sqlite/mysql
458[21:56] <@duggles> it just needs some finishing
459[21:56] <nico> unless xpmod (which sucks anyways)
460[21:56] <nico> I agree it needs fixage and moar features
461[21:56] <nico> but at the same time I say there is no reason in using amxx anymore
462[21:57] <nico> because anything not involving databases can be implemented or ported like right now
463[21:57] <@duggles> we'll get there. i need to spend more time learning the codebase before i make any huge changes, but i'm hoping to make some progress in the issue list for AS
464[21:57] <nico> people use amxx because they dont know better
465[21:57] <nico> and they always did
466[21:57] <@duggles> there are two things i know of that AMX/metamod can do which AS (atm) cannot
467[21:58] <nico> it needs to change
468[21:58] <@duggles> and those are database support, and HTTP requests
469[21:58] <nico> yes
470[21:58] <nico> DB + SOCKETS
471[21:58] <@duggles> (or, more generally, sockets)
472[21:58] <nico> my requests
473[21:58] <nico> thx 4 hearing me
474[21:58] <@duggles> I have big concerns about sockets
475[21:58] <nico> why?
476[21:58] <@duggles> because of the security problems that they could pose
477[21:59] <nico> they dont
478[21:59] <@Dynamite> I think the DB code was completed for AS
479[21:59] <nico> it is the server doing the requests
480[21:59] <@duggles> you don't want someone to hack your server, inject a load of AS and then havce your server be part of a botnet
481[21:59] <@Dynamite> although it might be outdated since Solokiller rewrote some code
482[21:59] <@duggles> Dynamite: there are bits missing in some of the features
483[21:59] <nico> thats not in the topic of discussion
484[21:59] <nico> you can already hack hlds and use all clients as a botnet
485[21:59] <nico> sockets do not change this
486[22:00] <nico> the server is doing the requests not the client
487[22:00] <nico> and even if you wont implement sockets
488[22:00] <nico> people just use amxx 
489[22:00] <nico> which has sockets
490[22:00] <@duggles> that's fair
491[22:00] <nico> so where is the difference?
492[22:00] <@duggles> well, you have to use amxx
493[22:00] <@duggles> which, in your opinion, sucks :D
494[22:00] <nico> well you can
495[22:00] <nico> but it suck yes
496[22:01] <nico> its not a valid argument tho
497[22:01] <nico> when a server is hacked it is hacked
498[22:01] <nico> then the admin did a shit job
499[22:01] <@duggles> not necessaril;y
500[22:01] <@duggles> AS could have a flaw in it
501[22:01] <@duggles> not the admin's fault
502[22:01] <@duggles> that's why I want to be careful
503[22:01] <nico> then do it right as solo would
504[22:02] <nico> have
505[22:02] <nico> ;_;
506[22:02] <nico> but its nice to see you caring duggles 
507[22:02] <nico> fix remaining stuff
508[22:02] <nico> then do db then do sockets
509[22:03] <nico> take ur time
510[22:03] <nico> thanks!
511[22:03] <@duggles> the hook requests and all that are what I'm going to use to get myself used to the code
512[22:03] <nico> and good night
513[22:03] <@duggles> after that it's things like DB/sockets/unicorns
514[22:03] <@duggles> nn
515[22:16] * @Dynamite (~no@dynamite.user.gamesurge) Quit (Signed off)
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519[22:54] <@Sniper> Well, looks like everything is back to normal, things are chugging away
520[22:54] <@Sniper> If we have to keep deleting rant posts, that's fine
521[22:55] <@Sniper> I wonder how projects work without anyone being able to make decisions
522[22:55] <@Sniper> My title is lead programmer for the mod, I'm in charge of it's code base. We add people to the team that we think are of sufficient quality to work with it's code.
523[22:56] <Nero|> oooh btw, there is a problem with selecting weapons when having multiple custom weapons
524[22:56] <Nero|> I put ze cs weapon map on a map, and when you have all weapons they can't be selected properly
525[22:56] <Nero|> something something slots not being cleared on map change
526[22:57] <Nero|> liek some weapons show up in the wrong slots
527[22:58] <@Sniper> You have to watch out for the slot indexes
528[22:58] <@Sniper> If you need further information, I can assist you. 
529[22:58] <Nero|> They're fine, it's when you come from a map that doesn't have those weapons when it fucks up
530[22:59] <@Sniper> You're saying slots aren't being cleared on map change?
531[22:59] <Nero|> something like that, idk what causes it
532[23:00] <Nero|> we played a map that had some classic doom weapons, was fine, then moved to a map with the cs weapons, and the selection messed up
533[23:00] <Nero|> but on the next map of that series they were fine
534[23:07] <Nero|> I can send you the pack if want check it out
535[23:07] <Nero|> I make vidya mebe
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566Session Time: Tue Jun 07 00:00:00 2016
567[01:17] <@Sniper> http://forums.svencoop.com/showthread.php/43935-A-letter-to-the-Sven-Co-op-team?goto=newpost
568[01:18] <@Sniper> I think this pretty much sums up everything
569[01:19] <+Stimor> "become something grate"
570[01:25] * Nero|tablet (~nero@gamesurge-5e7d1783.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) has joined #svencoop
571[01:34] <@Sniper> http://www.svencoop.com/changelog.php <--- See this stuff? 
572[01:34] <@Sniper> Lots of ass busting there. 
573[01:36] <@Sniper> All before Sam started programming on the game. 
574[01:36] <@Sniper> I don't understand why people think the game is doomed because he left the team. 
575[01:37] <@Sniper> It's like a huge slap in the face of everyone that exists on the team.
576[01:37] <@Sniper> *to
577[01:37] <@Sniper> This is precisely the problem when we have outbursts like this. The wrong people get praise. 
578[01:38] <@Sniper> And this is pretty god damn disgraceful to, considering we just lost Brent Holowka. We dedicated the release to him.
579[01:38] <@Sniper> *too
580[01:39] <@Sniper> I need some caffeine, the words aren't coming out right. 
581[01:44] <+Stimor> dumb people gonna dumb
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584[03:14] <@Sniper> http://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/1d/09/b3/1d09b3b276f4389f4b74b11d5b1c4bdc.jpg
585[03:27] <@Sniper> It's amazing how many people love our features
586[03:27] <@Sniper> and then when they're taken away, they go apeshit
587[03:28] <@Sniper> static.cfg was disabled because it broke the game. We actually did something terrible by ignoring mapper configurations.
588[03:33] <@Sniper> default_game_settings.cfg is executed first, the map's mapname.cfg is executed second, and then static.cfg executed after that.
589[03:33] <@Sniper> Thereby ruining mapper configurations.
590[03:33] * elchupacabra (~tomchattl@elchupacabra.bites.gamesurge) Quit (Killed (*.GameSurge.net (Ghost kill on account elchupacabra (requested by chuppy).)))
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592[03:43] * LastResort (~kvirc@gamesurge-d87584b8.rochester.res.rr.com) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
593[03:45] <+Stimor> http://i.imgur.com/6Yh3Lvn.jpg this dog will cheer you up
594[03:48] * LastResort (~kvirc@gamesurge-d87584b8.rochester.res.rr.com) has joined #svencoop
595[03:54] <@Puchi[CatchingSomeZ`s]> IT DIDNT
596[03:54] * @Puchi[CatchingSomeZ`s] slaps Stimor
597[03:55] * @Puchi[CatchingSomeZ`s] (~Ameria@puchi.beta-tester.gamesurge) Quit (Killed (*.GameSurge.net (Ghost kill on account puchi (requested by Puchi).)))
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599[03:55] * ChanServ sets mode: +o Puchi
600[03:57] * asdfffdsa1 (~computer@gamesurge-6eba9827.bing.east.verizon.net) Quit (Quit: Leaving.)
601[04:01] <+Stimor> why not D:
602[04:01] <+Stimor> his name is hats awesome, we decided
603[04:02] <@Puchi> i'm not a dog person! hahahahhaha
604[04:04] <+Stimor> cats best
605[09:38] <Aurora^> Let's say there are two people working in a company; one person does much longer shifts, while the other does shorter shifts. The person doing longer shifts suffers a constructive discharge, and the other one displays a 17-year-long CV. The constructive discharge will have an impact on the workplace's productivity, whereas the 17-year-old CV does not really factor into that. Even if it was 170 years.
606[09:41] <@duggles> what an apt analogy. except for the fact there was no hostile environment leading to a constructive discharge. solokiller refused outright to work with the other developers instead of attempting to reach a compromise through mature discussion.
607[09:42] <Aurora^> What about Mad Jonesy, Andy Nemer, and Protector?
608[09:43] <Aurora^> They were all disgruntled and decided to leave entirely on their own accord as well due to unrelated real life reasons?
609[09:43] <Aurora^> I was here when Andy was around, as a betatester. I remember the conversations.
610[09:43] <@duggles> i was not there for them. i make it a habit not to talk about thing i do not know about. i'll let Sniper or someone who was there for those people leaving to elaborate
611[09:44] <Aurora^> He was accused very similarly of trying to 'take over'.
612[11:10] <@Sniper> Just an FYI folks, I assigned angelscript to Sam because I *delegated* 
613[11:10] <@Sniper> I picked angelscript for the game.
614[11:10] <@Sniper> I am an angelscript fan.
615[11:11] <@Sniper> Angelscript is similar to C++, that is why I selected it.
616[11:11] <@Sniper> Protector still hangs around every once in a while.
617[11:12] <@Sniper> There was only one problem with Protector. He did a mass search and replace in the entire code base, and applied C Style casts to everything. I requested that he undo the change.
618[11:12] <@Sniper> (It wasn't proper, even Sam would agree there)
619[11:13] <@Sniper> Mad Jonesy left because I went into feature creep mode when the 3d artists got real life jobs.
620[11:14] <@Sniper> That was my mistake - I didn't release the update in a timely manner (instead, I just posted about new features and posted videos of in-progress stuff). That's in the past though, has nothing to do with this conversation. 
621[11:15] <@Sniper> I'm famously quoted, somewhere, saying to Andy that he takes the joy out of the game. There were discussions back then of Andy turning the game into a business, and some people on the team didn't like that - so I confronted him about it. 
622[11:15] <@Sniper> A power struggle *did* ensue with Andy, and Daniel Fearon (and many team members) sided with my case.
623[11:17] <@Sniper> It was our project back then anyway, and sometimes you need to stick up for yourself or people walk all over you. 
624[11:17] <@Sniper> Sven Co-op certainly wasn't Andy's property.
625[11:18] <Aurora^> <Sniper> This mod is not about getting shit done
626[11:18] <Aurora^> <Sniper> This mod is a personal project
627[11:18] <Aurora^> <Sniper> And by doing what you've done, you've taken all the joy out
628[11:18] <Aurora^> <AndY> People are working
629[11:18] <Aurora^> <AndY> Thinking it was about getting shit done
630[11:19] <@Sniper> Yes, good job Aurora, that's what I just said
631[11:19] <Aurora^> Is that why it took 5 years to release?
632[11:19] <@Sniper> I just wrote why it took forever to release
633[11:20] <Aurora^> Feature creep
634[11:20] <@Sniper> <Sniper> Mad Jonesy left because I went into feature creep mode when the 3d artists got real life jobs.
635[11:20] <@Sniper> Yes, I think that was painfully obvious wasn't it?
636[11:20] <@Sniper> I didn't know what to do with the game back then. 
637[11:20] <Aurora^> Do you know now?
638[11:20] <@Sniper> Do you remember all of the svencoop models and arm hands and such?
639[11:20] <@Sniper> Remember how there's like, 2 or 3 versions of the mp5?
640[11:21] <Aurora^> Yes. I remember that.
641[11:21] <@Sniper> I am not a modeller
642[11:21] <Aurora^> I remember the glow on the Garg's eye.
643[11:21] <@Sniper> We hate debates about the glow, actually
644[11:21] <@Sniper> I argued it should be like the original game's red color
645[11:21] <Aurora^> What's that about the shade of the geneworm's eye then?
646[11:21] <@Sniper> It ended up being yellow for a couple releaes I think
647[11:21] <@Sniper> *releases
648[11:21] <Aurora^> Or actually the geneworm itself
649[11:22] <@Sniper> There are a few artistic tweaks I made there. I programmed the geneworm to be as close to opposing force as possible (believe me, it's pretty damn near the same), but there are a couple of updates
650[11:22] <@Sniper> For one thing, the acid spray does splash damage and shock troopers are spawned based on player counts in the level.
651[11:23] <@Sniper> (Oops, that's two things - I need caffeine)
652[11:23] <@Sniper> I'm still debating about the eye color, the eyes are normally yellow so it didn't make sense that they were that lighter white-ish hue in Opposing Force
653[11:24] <Aurora^> Who cares?
654[11:24] <@Sniper> No one cares yet, I added the eye effects a long time ago
655[11:24] <Aurora^> Aren't there better things to focus on? Doesn't this kind of tie in with feature creep?
656[11:24] <@Sniper> You brought it up
657[11:24] <@Sniper> I'm not thinking about the Geneworm. It's not being released in this patch, we still have testing to do.
658[11:25] <@Sniper> It's on our internal game build only.
659[11:25] <@Sniper> Sam was still on the team then.
660[11:26] <@Sniper> People were pissed that the Geneworm wasn't added, and they blamed me for not spending time on it. (A few team members wanted it added, too) I agreed that it should be added to the game, so I programmed it.
661[11:27] <Aurora^> You spoke of the great difficulty that implementing the geneworm accurately presented. My two cents to that would be; if developers have little time to work on the project, and they are preparing or have very recently released the game on Steam for the first (and last) time, then perhaps entirely different things ought to have time allocated for them. No?
662[11:27] <@Sniper> That's what we do. Angelscript is Sam's project.
663[11:27] <@duggles> time was only allocated to it after SC was released on steam though
664[11:27] <@Sniper> Adam works own item inventory (he also made a video)
665[11:27] <@duggles> it wasn't worked on beforehand
666[11:27] <@Sniper> *works on
667[11:28] <@Sniper> Everyone does odd job stuff in the code base in addition to core game features.
668[11:29] <Aurora^> It would have been more sensible to simply axe the OpFor campaign and include it as an optional map pack which mentions the boss is missing. Unlock the OpFor doors on -sp_campaign_portal only once it's done. People have complained and demanded many things, yet out of all the things to work on, the geneworm was chosen.
669[11:30] <@Sniper> Again, Sam was on the team at the time. The geneworm was put on hold for years because it took a lot of effort to program.
670[11:31] <@Sniper> There actually isn't that much that needs working on outside of Angelscript right now.
671[11:31] <@Sniper> There's lots of engine issues, but they've been there since Half-Life 1. Slowly but surely we *have* been working on the engine and fixing problems.
672[11:31] <Nero|tablet> TFW someone makes the genewirm
673[11:32] <Aurora^> in angelscript
674[11:32] <Nero|tablet> ffs
675[11:32] <Nero|tablet> Yes ty
676[11:32] <Nero|tablet> xD
677[11:32] <@Sniper> Yes, that's the general idea
678[11:32] <Nero|tablet> Damn tablet
679[11:33] <@Sniper> I added angelscript to Sven Co-op so that we could have mini mods in Sven Co-op, on a mapper level. This is pretty much our entire focus. Sam did the implementation because I realized I didn't have enough time to work on it. 
680[11:33] <Aurora^> Are the engine issues not important, regardless of how long they've been there?
681[11:33] <@Sniper> No, they're important
682[11:33] <Aurora^> Surely this is why engine access was granted - so you could work on these specific things
683[11:33] <@Sniper> However, we're lucky we even have the engine
684[11:34] <@Sniper> Most of the goals and focus from before were all about how to circumvent the engine. 
685[11:34] <@Sniper> I did a lot of R&D to bypass the engine's renderer, physics, etc. among other things
686[11:35] <@Sniper> Then suddenly we *HAD* the engine
687[11:35] <@Sniper> There's a lot of work involved to maintain it, we're addressing issues as fast as possible. I have fixed numerous things in it thus far, as well as Adam.
688[11:36] <@Sniper> Look at the DragonballZ mod on goldsource.
689[11:36] <Aurora^> Do you reckon you realistically have the time to stabilise the current version of the game alongside all its features within the year?
690[11:36] <@Sniper> That is essentially what we were planning on doing - they replaced the game's renderer with their own.
691[11:37] <@Sniper> Basically at this point, I really don't give a damn what people's opinions are about our "development practices" 
692[11:37] <@Sniper> We pushed really damn hard to polish up the game for the Steam release
693[11:37] <@Sniper> 5.0 was our best release yet
694[11:37] <@Sniper> We also transformed HLSP
695[11:39] <@Sniper> No one was paid any money. We got a nice thanks from the community and that was fine. 
696[11:40] <@Sniper> But as it stands, we have no obligation to anyone, to do anything to the game. 
697[11:40] <Aurora^> The HLSP experience was far better with 5.0, with the carried on inventory status, classic mode weapons, combined .BSPs, checkpoints, truer to original monster placement, and the scaling back of the previously insane AI. Props to whoever worked on that.
698[11:40] <Aurora^> I don't contest that.
699[11:40] <@Sniper> We could essentially stop development on the game tomorrow, and the team would be completely in the right. We sold no product, we received no compensation.
700[11:41] <@Sniper> The team supports Sven Co-op because we all busted our asses working on it.
701[11:41] <@Sniper> Further development will continue because everyone on the team cares about the community.
702[11:41] <Aurora^> You must realise lots of other people have invested their time and effort into the game as well.
703[11:41] <@Sniper> Sam attacked us for delaying the game for a year while Half-Life single player was worked on.
704[11:42] <@Sniper> We pushed hard to ensure the #1 feature everyone played on day one of the release worked properly.
705[11:42] <Aurora^> What about days #2 to #365?
706[11:43] <+Misfire> <duggles> time was only allocated to it after SC was released on steam though [if we're talking after release, time coulda been allotted to svc_bad, server crashes like cpu hang, node graph crashes, name exploit (which has been fixed)
707[11:43] <@Sniper> We released numerous patches since then, and the next one is coming probably on Friday or Saturday (I hope)
708[11:43] <@Sniper> Misfire: Adam, Myself, and Sam worked on trying to find SVC_BAD
709[11:44] <@Sniper> We knew about the issue.
710[11:44] <@Sniper> We debugged it.
711[11:44] <@duggles> svc_bad has been addressed, a few cpu_hang issues have also been addressed (and already released, remember the donor queries killing linux machines? fixed and released), i dunno about node graph crashes because i haven't seen much about them
712[11:44] <@Sniper> I found the cause *WITH* Sam
713[11:44] <@Sniper> That said, we don't know if it's fixed entirely.
714[11:44] <@Sniper> Neither does Sam.
715[11:45] <Aurora^> I see a contradiction here:
716[11:45] <Aurora^> <@Sniper> Basically at this point, I really don't give a damn what people's opinions are about our "development practices" 
717[11:45] <Aurora^> <@Sniper> Further development will continue because everyone on the team cares about the community.
718[11:45] <@Sniper> If that makes me an asshole, I don't know how.
719[11:45] <@Sniper> Right Aurora^, we're being attacked for how we work on the fucking game
720[11:45] <Aurora^> You say you care about the community, but not their opinions.
721[11:45] <Aurora^> I don't see how that's possible.
722[11:46] <@Sniper> Well, that would be because they're two completely different subjects
723[11:46] <@duggles> you're being disingenuous there
724[11:46] <Aurora^> Is it something akin to parents who know better what their children should do with their lives to be happy?
725[11:46] <@duggles> Aurora^: there is a difference between ignoring the community (which isn't done) and having an established work practice
726[11:47] <@Sniper> Really is none of anyone's business but the team's.
727[11:48] <@duggles> the only reason there appears to be an issue over the work practices on the team is because someone who quit didn't like them. what about the rest of the team? do we all disagree about how things our done? I don't. I suspect the majority of the team members don't.
728[11:48] <Aurora^> The public is now seeing problems behind the curtains with said established work practice. You mentioned on the forum that this is how it has always been, and it must be right because players are still playing - but you are giving far too much credit to the team's own efforts when determining the reason why anyone still plays. It's Half-Life in co-op, and there are people hosting servers, mappers creating custom content for it - that's the greater part of why it lives.
729[11:49] <@Sniper> The public saw a bunch of cute quotes during some flame wars that happened inside the team. You're reading into things and you're forming a biased opinion.
730[11:49] <Aurora^> You forget that I was there in the developer chat room myself as a beta tester.
731[11:49] <Aurora^> Under a different nickname back then.
732[11:49] <Aurora^> 2006-2008
733[11:50] <@Sniper> That was also 10 years ago, when I was 20 going through college
734[11:51] <Aurora^> If the past doesn't matter, then why:
735[11:51] <Aurora^> [01:34] <@Sniper> http://www.svencoop.com/changelog.php <--- See this stuff? 
736[11:51] <Aurora^> [01:34] <@Sniper> Lots of ass busting there. 
737[11:51] <Aurora^> [01:36] <@Sniper> All before Sam started programming on the game. 
738[11:51] <Aurora^> Bring it up yourself, by glorifying 17 years of changelogs?
739[11:51] <@Sniper> Those changelogs aren't all because of me
740[11:51] <Aurora^> But they are in the past regardless
741[11:51] <@Sniper> What was the point in me posting that?
742[11:51] <@Sniper> Do you know what I was trying to say?
743[11:51] <@duggles> i would argue the past does matter, but it is not correct to directly compare the events with andy to the events with solokiller (but then again I wasn't there for andy, so I cannot say that with any strong authority)
744[11:51] <@Sniper> What was the topic, also?
745[11:52] <@Sniper> I know what the topic was
746[11:52] <@Sniper> Sam overinflated his worth to the game. It's very easy to do that. 
747[11:52] <@Sniper> I was trying to explain that there are other people on the team that worked on Sven Co-op before he arrived.
748[11:53] <@Sniper> If you attack me for making that assertion, that's pretty lame 
749[11:53] <@Sniper> That's in general a big middle finger to everyone else on the team
750[11:53] <+Misfire> uh no one was questioning other team member's contributions
751[11:53] <@Sniper> They are and continue to do so 
752[11:53] <Aurora^> And I mean, if we are discussing established work practise, consider that 4.0 took five years to release. Solokiller isn't the only person who had a problem with the development practises - you say it's 'only one person' with a problem. It's always only one person, because this game has been around for 17 years and those who had a problem quit after a few years of beating their heads against a wall.
753[11:53] <@Sniper> Sam left the team, so most of the haters in the community now think the game is doomed
754[11:54] <@Sniper> It's almost laughable at how uninformed they are.
755[11:54] <MirroR> the reason isnt just one persons leaving
756[11:54] <MirroR> there is many peoples who have thinked the same for past 3 years
757[11:54] <MirroR> now it just has gone more viral with bigger population
758[11:54] <@Sniper> No, that's specifically the entire debate. People think Sam is the only one that can make the game better. 
759[11:54] <Aurora^> They don't.
760[11:55] <@Sniper> I assure you otherwise
761[11:56] <@Sniper> That does seem to be the general opinion being posted about 
762[11:57] <Aurora^> I believe that technically, everyone with the knowledge how to work with the game's engine or contribute to it otherwise, have the potential and capability of making it better. The problem is with attitudes, with ignoring others' opinions, and with you wielding too much power in comparison to the time you're able to allocate for development.
763[11:57] <@Sniper> Again here we are 
764[11:57] <@Sniper> You're telling me and everyone else on the team how to think
765[11:57] <@Sniper> This is our project
766[11:57] <MirroR> if you really think this is all about solo youre totally wrong or youre just trying to cover your own tracks somehow, everything isnt well it hasnt been in long time
767[11:57] <Aurora^> It's your project because everyone else whose project it was left after you said it was your project
768[11:58] <MirroR> own private project that community's opinions are just wind in air?
769[11:58] <@Sniper> You think I'm a dictator because you saw a bunch of quotes. Pretty pathetic.
770[11:58] <@Sniper> You're not on the team, you don't interact with team members on a regular basis, you aren't in our voice meetings, you don't make decisions.
771[11:58] <MirroR> It's more than that now there has been more prove of that
772[11:58] <MirroR> proof*
773[11:59] <@Sniper> This is not an open source project, this is a closed source project run by a team of people with a heirarchy structure put in place based on seniority
774[11:59] <@Sniper> *WE* choose how to govern ourselves, and it's worked quite well over the years
775[11:59] <MirroR> private little treehouse
776[11:59] <Aurora^> I think so because I've been around since 2003 and seen you for as long, and because throughout this time I've been close to a large number of people who worked or work with the game.
777[12:00] <@Sniper> MirroR: Yes, that's exactly right! It's a private little tree house. 
778[12:00] <Aurora^> You could make yourself look so much better by giving in a little and doing some self-reflection. It would be easy to defuse this whole situation. I am not here to escalate it - I am urging you to address these issues. Detach yourself from your defensive position and look at it as an outside observer?
779[12:01] <Aurora^> Surely you cannot have made perfect decisions
780[12:01] <@duggles> 'You could make yourself look so much better by giving in a little ' There have been plenty of times where compromises have been reached
781[12:01] <@duggles> sniper is not some dictator
782[12:01] <@Sniper> You mean - admit to every false accusation? No thanks
783[12:01] <@Sniper> Maybe you could do a little self reflection and listen to the team members speaking out against Sam?
784[12:01] <MirroR> so everything has been always perfect? there hasnt been ever any bad decisions you regret or any team member regrets?
785[12:02] <@Sniper> Sam isn't the team, Sam was a contributor and now he's gone.
786[12:02] <@Sniper> I mean what is it do you think I get out of all of this stuff? Hmmmm? Do I have a secret agenda to subvert the will of people I work with on the team?
787[12:03] <@Sniper> Do you think Sven Co-op is a cult?
788[12:03] * @Sniper chuckles
789[12:03] <MirroR> Yes your agenda is to make the mod seem like you want no matter what people want the people who actually have played lot
790[12:03] <@duggles> The cult of Chubby
791[12:03] <@Sniper> We have 3 sacrificial chubby offerings each month
792[12:04] <Aurora^> Perhaps something like the beta testing team saying in 2006 that including the old MP5+GL at least as an optional feature would be elemental in retaining the fast-paced gameplay of the old version of HL, and you ignoring this as what you termed 'nostalgia', eventually choosing to implement it only a decade later once you'd arrived at the same conclusion independently.
793[12:04] <MirroR> im not thinking this as being cult, cults actually have good pr
794[12:04] <@Sniper> You can only attack me based on something that happened a decade ago?
795[12:04] <@Sniper> You apparently have very little knowledge 
796[12:05] <Aurora^> I'm not trying to attack you, I'm trying to get through to you.
797[12:05] <@Sniper> Why am I being attacked for the grenade launcher?
798[12:05] <@Sniper> Can you tell me who was involved in the decision to change how the grenade launcher works? Do you know?
799[12:05] <@Sniper> Because I know
800[12:05] <@Sniper> Hint: It wasn't me
801[12:06] <Aurora^> I cannot, but I know you turned it down back then.
802[12:06] <@Sniper> Do you know that the grenade launcher was changed during the 3.5 era?
803[12:06] <@Sniper> Do you remember what happened during this time?
804[12:06] <@Sniper> Turned what down?
805[12:06] <Aurora^> Yes - the angle of the grenade was made to matche the direction of the movement, and the trajectory was made more direct.
806[12:06] <@Sniper> OK hold on
807[12:07] <Aurora^> I know that.
808[12:07] <@Sniper> I thought you were referring to how the grenade launcher operates on the m16a2
809[12:07] <@Sniper> Are you only talking about the spin?
810[12:08] <Aurora^> I'm talking about the MP5+GL combo from vanilla HL overall. Keeping the old weapon - not for sake of nostalgia, but for sake of maintaining fast paced run-and-gun gameplay that was intended originally with the weapon.
811[12:08] <@Sniper> Okay, why are you attacking me for that?
812[12:08] <@Sniper> You think I was responsible for all of that?
813[12:09] <Aurora^> You responded to my request for this personally and turned it down, alongside with other people who mentioned the same, so who else?
814[12:09] <@Sniper> You really think I am the *SOLE* person responsible?
815[12:09] <@Sniper> Think back to that time era. Who was on the team?
816[12:09] <@Sniper> Also, what was popular back then?
817[12:10] <Aurora^> Realism was popular with you, that much I remember
818[12:10] <@Sniper> Ahh no
819[12:10] <@Sniper> Realism was popular with the entire game community
820[12:11] <Aurora^> Debatable
821[12:11] <@Sniper> And we had 3d artists on the team that thought we should change how the weapons worked
822[12:11] <@Sniper> I sure as hell didn't make the models
823[12:11] <Aurora^> But you made the whole team wait until they were done
824[12:11] <@Sniper> Yes
825[12:11] <@Sniper> because the game was dead 
826[12:11] <@Sniper> There was no team Aurora^
827[12:11] <Aurora^> And delaying a next release for HD models even longer was going to revive it?
828[12:12] <@Sniper> No one worked on the game except level designers
829[12:12] <@Sniper> There was no team
830[12:12] <Aurora^> Can you explain why there was no team?
831[12:12] <@Sniper> I did a million times!
832[12:12] <@Sniper> We had a HUGE art team! They all got jobs!
833[12:12] <@Sniper> So many models were worked on! Look at all the videos!
834[12:13] <@Sniper> They were abandoned 
835[12:13] <Aurora^> There was no release for 5 years since 2003
836[12:13] <@Sniper> http://www.svencoop.com/archive/news-archive-7-2004.php
837[12:13] <@Sniper> Look
838[12:13] <Aurora^> 5 years is a lifetime in videogame measures
839[12:13] <@Sniper> See that? 
840[12:13] <@Sniper> Please tell me you can see that stuff
841[12:13] <Aurora^> Alright, let me look
842[12:13] <@Sniper> Who made the weapon? Hint: Not me!
843[12:14] <@Sniper> The grenade launcher was made by a bunch of people on the team 
844[12:14] <@Sniper> http://www.svencoop.com/archive/news-archive-8-2004.php
845[12:15] <@Sniper> a week later, Tor was posted about
846[12:15] <@Sniper> The animations weren't finalized at that point for Tor. Daniel Fearon had to bring in his brother to help get the damn thing finished.
847[12:16] <@Sniper> http://www.svencoop.com/archive/news-archive-2-2005.php
848[12:16] <@Sniper> See this? 
849[12:16] <Aurora^> Listen: I am not saying you are to blame for everything. I am not saying the efforts you have made shouldn't be recognised. The one thing people would like to see is you admitting at least the part, the partial responsibility, that you've had in the problems, for once.
850[12:16] <@Sniper> Sven Co-op 2 suddenly appears
851[12:16] <@Sniper> 1 year later
852[12:16] <Aurora^> Some people perhaps, but most, and certainly not me, want to drag your face through the mud or anything like that.
853[12:16] <@Sniper> I'm just trying to explain that the team was all over the place back then
854[12:16] <@Sniper> and Sven Co-op 2 nearly was the kiss of death
855[12:17] <@Sniper> I tried to finish 3.5 while others worked on Sven Co-op 2, and then the entire art team got jobs and had to leave
856[12:17] <@Sniper> People didn't want to work on Sven Co-op because Sven Co-op 2 was new and shiny
857[12:17] <Aurora^> I understand that even if you had dedicated 48 hours a day into Sven Co-op 3.5 and Sven Co-op 2, that the releases would have been delayed by years and the latter game never surfaced - because the team members vanished. THat happens to many mods.
858[12:18] <@Sniper> The news posts don't lie, they paint the perfect picture of what really was going on
859[12:18] <@Sniper> My mistake, which I openly admit, is that I feature creeped the game while I waited for others to help get the thing released
860[12:19] <@Sniper> I was a one man show because there just simply wasn't anyone on the team
861[12:19] <@Sniper> I kept posting in the news for people to join the team
862[12:19] <@Sniper> It was terrible
863[12:19] <@Sniper> Regardless, during that time, a bunch of stuff was programmed that still exists in the game today
864[12:20] <@Sniper> So it wasn't a total loss 
865[12:20] <@Sniper> (Not just referring to the weapons)
866[12:21] <@Sniper> http://web.archive.org/web/20050306084509/http://gamejack.hlgaming.com/interview.php?id=2
867[12:21] <Aurora^> You've stuck around for a long time and didn't give up on the project even when you ran out of time - but consider that you, as a human being with inherent human flaws that can be perceived in probably most individuals who stay in charge of one thing for a long time - have developed a sense of seniority and arrogance over anyone newer, outside, or underneath you, that may harm the project when you remain so controlling over it.
868[12:21] <@Sniper> Sniper| - It's been slow progress, but along the way it's been a rather massive learning experience. We try to make each release better than the last. Our last version of Sven Co-op for Half-Life will be 3.5, which is currently being worked on now.
869[12:21] <@Sniper> Sniper| - When Half-Life 2 releases, we will continue to put the same amount of effort in for a very long time.
870[12:21] <@Sniper> Sniper| - (For the Half-Life 2 version of the mod.)
871[12:22] <@Sniper> ^ Obviously things changed
872[12:22] <@Sniper> I do retain a lot of control over Sven Co-op, but as I've said, I'm regular overridden by other team members.
873[12:23] <@Sniper> Part of my job as lead programmer is to provide oversight over the code base. I try to help out where possible.
874[12:23] <@Sniper> *I'm regularly overridden
875[12:23] <@Sniper> (I can't spell for shit today)
876[12:25] <Aurora^> However it practically is your mod ever since Sven ceased to be around and back a decade ago since the other team members left. You made a separate branch for Sam to commit his contributions to.
877[12:26] <@Sniper> Dan is still around, he just sent an email today 
878[12:26] <Aurora^> I can't really call that being around.
879[12:26] <@Sniper> I act as a figurehead on the team because I've been working on the game on and off for 15 years. That's the only reason.
880[12:27] <Aurora^> So your actual capability doesn't factor into it then?
881[12:27] <Aurora^> Only seniority? Come on.
882[12:27] <@Sniper> Well, he still pays the website bills, and he helps out when needed
883[12:27] <Aurora^> Yes, but in practise he isn't involved.
884[12:27] <@Sniper> <Aurora^> So your actual capability doesn't factor into it then?
885[12:27] <@Sniper> 15 years of experience working with half-life? Surely it does
886[12:28] <Aurora^> What about free time and game design knowledge?
887[12:28] <@Sniper> How do you think the mod came to be?
888[12:29] <Aurora^> Sven made a map series, that's how
889[12:29] <@Sniper> Bingo 
890[12:29] <@Sniper> Does Sven have game design knowledge?
891[12:29] <Aurora^> He probably had free time back then.
892[12:29] <@Sniper> How is game design knowledge acquired?
893[12:29] <@Sniper> Through experience? Through reading articles on the subject?
894[12:29] <@Sniper> Both?
895[12:30] <Aurora^> Both.
896[12:30] <Aurora^> And more.
897[12:30] <@Sniper> Yes.
898[12:30] <@Sniper> There is no perfect game developer.
899[12:30] <@Sniper> Everyone is human.
900[12:30] <@Sniper> We aren't paid to do anything for anyone.
901[12:30] <@Sniper> It is merely a project, created by a group of individuals, with varying levels of involvement.
902[12:31] <Aurora^> That's what I'm saying - you are human as well, and all the content creators and server hosters aren't being paid either. In fact, they're paying with their money and time in many instances
903[12:31] <@Sniper> Some people make maps, some people code, some people create art. We all have our ups and downs and we've been working through the game's various releases for years.
904[12:32] <Aurora^> But is having a good game more imporant to you than presiding over a personal project? Which one?
905[12:32] <@Sniper> The good game is derived from the fact that this is a hobby project
906[12:32] <@Sniper> No one is being told to play Sven Co-op
907[12:32] <@Sniper> Yet they flock to it
908[12:33] <@Sniper> We have over a million installations now
909[12:33] <Aurora^> So you don't care about having players?
910[12:33] <Aurora^> They just happened to show up?
911[12:33] <@Sniper> Today is "put words into Sniper's mouth day"
912[12:33] <@Sniper> :D
913[12:33] <@Sniper> Anyway I think you understand where I'm coming from
914[12:34] <MirroR> i wanna hear answer to this
915[12:34] <@Sniper> Most of the game's development I was just a dumb kid trying to figure out stuff
916[12:34] <@Sniper> That's how hobby projects usually start
917[12:34] <Aurora^> If I was the game developer, and I had the opportunity for a Steam release of Half-Life co-op for free, then I sure would be telling people to play the game - and I'd listen to their concerns about what's wrong with it, preferrably before said release
918[12:35] <@Sniper> I'm more disgusted with the fact that you seem to think we're not listening to concerns
919[12:35] <Aurora^> You are listening but you're not addressing them
920[12:35] <@Sniper> That's your opinion
921[12:35] <@Sniper> Factually wrong
922[12:37] <Aurora^> Sven Co-op being a good game, and being your personal hobby project, are not mutually exclusive. However, suppose that these were mutually exclusive for some reason - perhaps due to some unexpected life circumstances, having zero time to work on it - then what's more important to you?
923[12:38] <@Sniper> This is everyone's problem though
924[12:38] <@Sniper> People are seeing me
925[12:38] <@Sniper> They are not seeing the fact that we have a team
926[12:38] <@Sniper> Also you seem to be disregarding our communication with the public
927[12:38] <Aurora^> This is because right now it's about you, and every time that concerns regarding you are brought up, you start talking about everyone else. It's about you now
928[12:39] <@Sniper> For instance, on launch day, we scrambled (Dan Fearon, Adam, and myself) to figure out the cause to the window scaling issue in Windows 8 and above
929[12:39] <Aurora^> No one is saying every bad thing ever is your sole responsibility, but on this instance it's about you
930[12:39] <@Sniper> We had the problem fixed in short order
931[12:39] <@Sniper> Not everything is easy to fix in the engine though, it's a large code base with very technical inner workings that can easily break the game
932[12:40] <@Sniper> (BTW, I think we fixed the resolution issue the very same weekend)
933[12:40] <Aurora^> Theoretically if you were faced with the choice, as I said perhaps due to an imaginary circumstance where you completely ran out of time in real life, would presiding over the project be more important than having a good game?
934[12:41] <Aurora^> I am not saying these things are mutually exclusive now necessarily, but what if they were, what's more important in that case?
935[12:42] <@Sniper> I have already discussed passing the torch after I finish a couple remaining goals that I have had
936[12:42] <Aurora^> It is not a rhethorical question, nor an accusation, nor a suspicion. It's just a question.
937[12:43] <@Sniper> If I don't have time, I will be fading away in a similar manner to Dan (even though he pops in as needed)
938[12:44] <Aurora^> So why not treat Sam the same way Dan treats you?
939[12:45] <@Sniper> Aurora^ I dont know how to explain this any more than I already have
940[12:45] <@Sniper> Things went south with Sam
941[12:46] <Aurora^> Things can still come back up north
942[12:46] <@Sniper> I'm not the only person to feel this way
943[12:46] <@Sniper> Yes, we were fine with him coming back on the team after he cooled off
944[12:46] <@Sniper> Again, he wasn't kicked from the team
945[12:47] <@Sniper> But, honestly, we don't have time for nonsense. He's burned his bridge, and we're moving forward.
946[12:47] <Aurora^> He outpaced everyone on the team, and everyone else had little time to work on the game. At the end of the day he would've just been doing delegations and assignments handed out to him, and everything he did would've had to be doublechecked.
947[12:48] <@Sniper> Why do you think that? Because he said it?
948[12:48] <Aurora^> Why else make a separate branch for him?
949[12:48] <Aurora^> I don't get that
950[12:48] <@Sniper> Why didn't he finish angelscript's implementation?
951[12:50] <@Sniper> After discussion with the Adam and Dan, we decided to give him his own branch because he kept breaking the main branch
952[12:50] <Aurora^> I thought he had explained that already
953[12:50] <@duggles> he hadn't until today. 
954[12:50] <@duggles> he has a reddit post which explains "he wasn't feeling appreciated" so he didn't finish it
955[12:51] <@duggles> then some personal attacks on me
956[12:51] <@duggles> nbd
957[12:51] <Aurora^> I wouldn't feel appreciated either in the same scenario
958[12:51] <@Sniper> Yeah, because Sam wasn't being a dick at all
959[12:51] <@Sniper> Oh wait, he was
960[12:51] <@duggles> Aurora^: you don't know the context
961[12:51] <@Sniper> Hence the arguments and fighting
962[12:52] <@duggles> i was there, sam was consistently combative 
963[12:52] <Aurora^> Show the context then if it improves your position
964[12:52] <Aurora^> nothing to lose at this stage
965[12:52] <@duggles> nothing to gain, either
966[12:53] <@duggles> it just shows that a team had disagreements, that's nothing new
967[12:53] <@Sniper> Look, Aurora^, we tried to work with Sam
968[12:53] <Aurora^> Well, all I've got is your word on Sam being a dick, and no one can argue with that if it's within a certain context that's invisible to people
969[12:53] <Aurora^> Same goes for the public
970[12:53] <Aurora^> All they can see is what's out there
971[12:53] <@Sniper> If I was a huge cock face, everyone on the team would have kicked me off the project. I'm outnumbered here.
972[12:54] <Aurora^> How would they have kicked you off
973[12:54] <@Sniper> Simple really
974[12:54] <@Sniper> Adam could do it in 5 seconds
975[12:54] <@Sniper> I run and pay for the forums
976[12:54] <@Sniper> Adam manages the infrastructure
977[12:55] <@Sniper> Adam would listen to Dan's direction over mine, any day of the week
978[12:55] <@Sniper> If the entire team hated me, I would address it and try to work things out
979[12:56] <@Sniper> Sam just basically threw a temper tantrum (which he admits he took things too far in his reddit post, while attacking me at the same time)
980[12:57] <Aurora^> Removing the most senior team member who has the source, who is close with a circle of other team members almost as senior as himself, pays for the forum, etc. is a bit more complicated than making that happen at the snap of a finger. Whenever anyone dissented to a greater extent, in practise they would get smoked out. IT's not all about the technicalities.
981[12:57] <@Sniper> If you think I talk with people on the team and say "fuck you, this is how it's going to be", the game would be dead pretty quickly
982[12:57] <@Sniper> Everyone has backups of the forum 
983[12:57] <@Sniper> Plus I wouldn't be a dick
984[12:59] <@Sniper> That said, I do have some pretty strongly opinionated views on stuff. I try to support my arguments in favor of stuff if there is disagreement. Running and Shooting was a pretty good example.
985[12:59] <@Sniper> I fought to keep the feature in, and some people like it for certain NPCs
986[12:59] <@Sniper> There are even posts from people that say it's good for grunts as well
987[12:59] <@Sniper> We're only keeping it for a few NPCs though based on talks we've had internally
988[13:00] <Aurora^> Human beings are more complicated than either being okay folks, or complete fucking arseholes. I'm not trying to decide which one you are, as I don't believe in good versus evil or any other mythological, moral, Hollywood-esque way of perceiving the world and people. I'm trying to talk to you about some issues that people have perceived in your attitude, and some decisions here and there which people judge as rather poor, and I'm hoping you would acknowledge them.
989[13:01] <@Sniper> Linus Torvalds also has a shitty attitude
990[13:01] <@Sniper> But they thrive on that stuff
991[13:02] <Aurora^> He's good at managing things technically but he'd be fucking horrible to be around personally
992[13:02] <@Sniper> I'm not a european, I'm american
993[13:02] <@Sniper> Sam is from Belgium
994[13:03] <@Sniper> Sometimes there's a culture clash
995[13:03] <@Sniper> Sometimes everything is fine
996[13:03] <Aurora^> Linus is Finnish, eg. from Finland, and I can recognise his blunt, direct, rude way of communicating things as characteristic of that culture - because I'm from the same country as him. However it's a fucking shit culture, and it shouldn't be excused just because that's the tradition.
997[13:03] <@Sniper> Aurora^: Well you say Linus Torvalds is horrible, but millions of people out there would disagree
998[13:04] <@duggles> ummmmm
999[13:04] <@duggles> linus is a bit of an arse
1000[13:04] <@duggles> linux is p cool tho
1001[13:04] <Aurora^> I think he's a great developer but he's not a great person
1002[13:04] <Aurora^> That's my opinion anyway
1003[13:04] <@duggles> but maybe that's that my opinion due to my irish culture of non-confrontation 
1004[13:05] <@Sniper> I'm irish >:o
1005[13:05] <@duggles> yeah but you live in america
1006[13:05] <@Sniper> exactly
1007[13:05] <@Sniper> Completely fucked in the head
1008[13:06] <@Sniper> Anyway, I just want to say that we don't have a democracy structure in place. We have people that make decisions in certain areas, and we have an overall voice that raises complaints when things are done a certain way on the team.
1009[13:07] <@Sniper> We're a group of dudes that work on a hobby project and we figure out how to get along
1010[13:07] <@Sniper> If you want the game to continue, you're just going to have to deal with it
1011[13:08] <@Sniper> This is how we run our team, and we're not all dicks
1012[13:10] <Aurora^> Maybe you guys should take a break for a week and forget about this. Then, after distancing yourselves from all of this, come back around the same table and have a discussion about what happened, admit it if mistakes were made, and decide where to go on from there. Right now all we've got here is two sides and you're one side, defending against the other side, the public. If you distanced yourself from this a bit and looked at what happened, including your own part as if it was someone else, then something better might come out of this, in my view.
1013[13:10] <@Sniper> No mistakes were made
1014[13:10] <@Sniper> A mistake would have been made if we kicked Sam from the team
1015[13:10] <@Sniper> He made the choice to leave, we tried to work things out
1016[13:11] <Aurora^> You've said a few things and the administration has taken a few actions which are huge mistakes in terms of PR
1017[13:11] <Aurora^> understandably, under aggravation from the whole unfolding conflict
1018[13:11] <@Sniper> But you know what? That's life
1019[13:11] <@Sniper> The sun will come up tomorrow
1020[13:12] <@Sniper> I could easily attack you Aurora^, based on the events that unfolded around Richard Boderman
1021[13:12] <@Sniper> A map I thought was pretty awesome
1022[13:12] <Aurora^> You would be welcome to attack me, and I would admit my part and apologise once more
1023[13:12] <@Sniper> You acted in a dictator fashion 
1024[13:13] <@Sniper> You had us remove the map from the game
1025[13:13] <@Sniper> I've said nothing on the subject
1026[13:13] <@Sniper> Internally or otherwise
1027[13:14] <@Sniper> So from my perspective, you're kind of being a hypocrite here
1028[13:15] <@Sniper> I'm trying to be honest here and explain what happened
1029[13:15] <Aurora^> I had had a beef with the team for a while, I saw GigaByte get banned on a particularly bad day, and exploded in rage due to my poor temper. Consequently I was exiled from the community, ie. banned from the IRC and forum, and in response I asked for my map to be removed. I regret my overreaction and hope to improve as a person. Having turned 27 two weeks ago I seek to behave more like it.
1030[13:15] <MirroR> i see huge difference here though
1031[13:15] <MirroR> i see no empathy personally from your part here
1032[13:15] <@Sniper> MirroR: Ahh, but you don't know about the events surrounding Richard Boderman
1033[13:15] <Aurora^> As compensation I have offered a map request for each team member, though I never heard a response to this
1034[13:16] <@duggles> The whole problem with boderman was resolved. Tempers cooled. Bridges were rebuilt and things got back to the way they were.
1035[13:16] <@Sniper> MirroR: That's because you've formed an opinion based on half-truths
1036[13:16] <Aurora^> I've relayed this to Adam, to Puchi, to Trempler, as well as posting on the forum - though I removed that post a few days ago as I figured it's better relayed via private channels.
1037[13:17] <@Sniper> Humans have great difficulty changing their minds once they've decided something
1038[13:18] <Aurora^> You know, I know my mushroom model was removed as failing to match the standard of the game.
1039[13:18] <@Sniper> Aurora^: Don't get me wrong, I'm not getting myself involved in the Richard Boderman stuff. I'm sure you had valid complaints.
1040[13:18] <Aurora^> Boderman has a bunch of female assassin prisoners with ridiculous models, termed 'slut' and 'bitch'. Surely those don't match the standard either
1041[13:18] <@Sniper> I don't know who added that
1042[13:19] <@Sniper> I didn't work on the map
1043[13:19] <Aurora^> I made the map
1044[13:19] <Aurora^> and I added those ridiculous models when I made it in 2005
1045[13:19] <@Sniper> I know this
1046[13:19] <@Sniper> This is quite clear
1047[13:19] <@Sniper> I'm referring to "bitch" and "slut"
1048[13:20] <@Sniper> Did you name them that?
1049[13:20] <Aurora^> Yes I did.
1050[13:21] <Aurora^> They've been like that since the start. I'd change them now if I could update the map.
1051[13:21] <@Sniper> Ideally we don't have stuff like that in the game, but that's not something that crossed my mind
1052[13:22] * Retrieving #svencoop modes...
1053[13:22] <@Sniper> I think that'd be fine
1054[13:22] <@Sniper> I wanted Richard Boderman re-added, but I don't know what's going on there
1055[13:22] <@Sniper> I personally love the map, it's pretty cool
1056[13:23] <@Sniper> I want Osprey removed from Sven Co-op, but I've been told no 
1057[13:23] <@Sniper> Osprey is my map
1058[13:23] <@Sniper> >_>
1059[13:23] <@duggles> heheh
1060[13:23] <@duggles> that map is never being removed
1061[13:23] <@duggles> ever
1062[13:23] <@Sniper> Stupid dictators
1063[13:23] <@duggles> it's your punishment 
1064[13:23] <@duggles> >:-D
1065[13:23] <@duggles> (I like osprey)
1066[13:23] <@Sniper> I'm deadly serious by the way, I do want osprey removed from the game
1067[13:24] <@duggles> yeah not happening
1068[13:24] <@Sniper> I'm just not pushing that hard
1069[13:24] <@duggles> make osprey2
1070[13:24] <@duggles> then it will be considered :PO
1071[13:24] <@duggles> :P *
1072[13:24] <@Sniper> I do want to eventually get back to mapping 
1073[13:24] <MirroR> well its really bad
1074[13:24] <MirroR> in my opinion
1075[13:24] <@Sniper> Osprey 2 was actually just a giant test bed for svencoop features
1076[13:24] <@duggles> can you make ausprey?
1077[13:24] <@duggles> which is just osprey, but upside down?
1078[13:25] <@Sniper> trigger_setorigin, rocket grunts, osprey helicopter soldier options, pathing entities, trigger_track_goal, env_global_light_control, so many new entities were created for that map.
1079[13:26] <@Sniper> har har 
1080[13:26] <@Sniper> Err, global_light_control rather
1081[13:26] <@Sniper> That entity is pretty useful, lets you turn out the lights on the level
1082[13:28] <@Sniper> I think literally no one has used it though >_<
1083[13:30] <MirroR> havent seen it being used
1084[13:30] <@Sniper> http://steamcommunity.com/app/225840/discussions/0/350532795330464207/?ctp=2
1085[13:30] * CreepyInpu (~Alexander@5a9bf7cc:735090fe:7d935479:IP6) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
1086[13:31] <@Sniper> My answer wasn't good enough. Dr. Rhubarb doesn't seem to want to hear the answer regarding grenade jumping.
1087[13:31] <Aurora^> As I have apologised for overreacting, I'm not trying to say I wasn't in the wrong, but I feel it's quite inappropriate to say my actions reflect that of an authoritative dictator when I asked my custom content removed in response to being exiled
1088[13:31] <@Sniper> One could make the argument because other people worked on the map with you.
1089[13:32] <@Sniper> Just like how I work on Sven Co-op with other people.
1090[13:32] <@Sniper> I can't cease the mod's development.
1091[13:32] * Bucky (~Bucky2156@ip24-254-61-63.br.br.cox.net) has joined #svencoop
1092[13:32] * Bucky (~Bucky2156@ip24-254-61-63.br.br.cox.net) Quit (Registered)
1093[13:32] * Bucky (~Bucky2156@gamesurge-efcbd5f0.br.br.cox.net) has joined #svencoop
1094[13:33] <Aurora^> No one can exile you though
1095[13:33] <Aurora^> And on to that -
1096[13:33] <@Sniper> Again I'm not attacking you
1097[13:34] <Aurora^> Can you not see how much time several people have invested in the game? It's their stuff that brings the life to it, onto the skeleton you've assembled
1098[13:34] <@Sniper> That can't be a real question
1099[13:34] <@Sniper> That looks more like a statement
1100[13:34] <Aurora^> But you've told that people are just going to have to deal with it, that that's life, and the sun will rise tomorrow.
1101[13:35] <Aurora^> Maybe you should care more about their opinion of how the development is ran than you do currently?
1102[13:35] <@Sniper> I mean yeah, if you want to take what I said as a blanket statement regarding the stupidity that is this event, sure
1103[13:35] <@Sniper> If you are implying that I don't care about the game or community or other team members, you're just being an ass
1104[13:36] <@Sniper> I don't need to sit here and be attacked for stuff I've explained to death
1105[13:37] <Aurora^> <@Sniper> Basically at this point, I really don't give a damn what people's opinions are about our "development practices" 
1106[13:37] <Aurora^> I'm talking about this
1107[13:37] <@Sniper> Yeah
1108[13:37] <@Sniper> What we do in our own homes is our business
1109[13:37] <@Sniper> That doesn't imply we're doing anything bad
1110[13:38] <@Sniper> But no one has a right to say how we should spend our time
1111[13:38] <Aurora^> Either you care about the community, take their opinions on board, and appreciate the free time they're investing in your game by making maps, scripts, hosting servers, and the like... or, you don't.
1112[13:38] <@Sniper> The level of arrogance over the fact that you think you have a say over how we should behave is astounding
1113[13:39] <@Sniper> The fact that you want to continue to believe that the team doesn't care is even more shocking
1114[13:39] <@Sniper> And you have based your opinion on nothing but flare ups and outbursts from the game's development
1115[13:39] <Aurora^> Shocking, astounding
1116[13:39] <@Sniper> As if we are some kind of fucking aliens that are so bizarre in the world
1117[13:39] <@Sniper> Give me a break
1118[13:40] <@Sniper> Get off your high horse and stop thinking the world is going to end
1119[13:40] <Aurora^> I don't think the world is going to end, I'm just pointing out that you should care about this one thing, which I quoted you as saying you don't care about
1120[13:40] <@Sniper> As it stands right now, people in the community have formed opinions.
1121[13:40] <@Sniper> I can't change people's minds.
1122[13:40] <Aurora^> You can
1123[13:41] <@Sniper> People are unreasonable
1124[13:41] <@Sniper> Yourself included
1125[13:41] <Aurora^> Socially you wield more power than you are perhaps aware of
1126[13:41] <@Sniper> And as I've said, you are guilty of the very thing you accuse me of
1127[13:41] <Aurora^> you can use it to turn this thing around
1128[13:41] <Aurora^> I'm suggesting it'd be a good thing to do
1129[13:41] <@Sniper> So you should just check yourself out first
1130[13:42] <MirroR> i see this so childish "you have done this you cant blame me doing my stuff"
1131[13:42] <MirroR> here i see who is the really arrogant now
1132[13:42] <@Sniper> Yeah, you are
1133[13:42] <@Sniper> You're attacking someone that works on a project for free
1134[13:42] <@Sniper> You're pretty disgusting
1135[13:42] <Aurora^> Why do you always seek flaws out in everyone else when people are addressing you directly? There was a time to have a discussion about me, and that was probably around when I made my apology. I said 'hello' to you in private a few times with no response.
1136[13:43] <Aurora^> Now that time has passed.
1137[13:43] <@Sniper> Aurora: Why do you seek flaws in me? 
1138[13:43] <@Sniper> You're just a hypocrite, and your arguments fall flat on their face but you don't want to listen
1139[13:43] <Aurora^> How am I hypocrite?
1140[13:43] <MirroR> i am disgusting personality but atleast im saying my opinions and trying to be civil but is it possible to be civil when there is this kinda lies,and suddenly someone jumps in and turns convo in other way
1141[13:43] <@Sniper> We already went through this
1142[13:44] <@Sniper> Aurora^: You don't have humility. 
1143[13:44] <Aurora^> How come I don't?
1144[13:45] <@Sniper> Because you're attacking me for something I explained. The answer isn't good enough.
1145[13:45] <@Sniper> You don't like my answer, you don't like me, you don't like that I'm working on the game.
1146[13:45] <@Sniper> You think the team is full of assholes
1147[13:45] <@Sniper> You think we hate the game
1148[13:45] <@Sniper> You think Sven Co-op is doomed
1149[13:45] <@Sniper> You think Sam was the best person on the planet to work on the game
1150[13:45] <@Sniper> You think Sam is an angel
1151[13:45] <@Sniper> I could go on
1152[13:45] <Aurora^> If you could get into my head, my thoughts are quite different
1153[13:45] <@Sniper> You're blind
1154[13:45] <@Sniper> You're ignoring the facts
1155[13:46] <@Sniper> We're all trying to be honest here
1156[13:46] <@Sniper> Again, you're being a hypocrite
1157[13:46] <@Sniper> I'm supposed to accept what you have to say, but you can't accept my discussion points
1158[13:46] <@Sniper> This is specifically why it's impossible to reason with anyone on this subject
1159[13:47] <Aurora^> If Sam has been an arsehole in your opinion, then can we get the context for that?
1160[13:47] <@Sniper> You either believe what the team has said, or you think we're full of shit
1161[13:47] <@Sniper> It's incredibly inappropriate to assume that anyone should give any more time to this matter than what has already been done
1162[13:47] <Aurora^> No, that's wrong. I think Sam did become a bit possessive of angelscript and this was perhaps reflected in the fact he didn't document it
1163[13:48] <Aurora^> Which would make it difficult for others to work on it
1164[13:48] <@duggles> there has been a lot of drama over this whole debacle
1165[13:48] <@Sniper> This is the first time I have ever heard you admit some humility on this subject
1166[13:48] <@Sniper> Thank you for understanding
1167[13:50] <Aurora^> However you've said Sam has been combative, and please understand that the only thing I've to go by to determine if that's true or not, is just that. No one in the public including myself can see that. If you think that context would make people empathise with your position better, then why not share it?
1168[13:50] <@Sniper> We could do that
1169[13:50] <@Sniper> We could also fabricate stories
1170[13:50] <@duggles> Why should we be posting internal chats? They have always been private
1171[13:50] <@Sniper> I'm sure everything would be considered a lie, as it already has been
1172[13:51] <@Sniper> The fact is we worked with sam for a few years
1173[13:51] <@Sniper> It wasn't terrible the entire length of our relationship with him
1174[13:52] <Aurora^> You say everything would be considered a lie, but surely you should at least try?
1175[13:53] <@Sniper> If our word isn't good enough, then nothing is
1176[13:53] <@Sniper> This is just a huge waste of time 
1177[13:53] <Aurora^> But all you've said is that he's been a combative dick
1178[13:53] <Aurora^> am I supposed to just swallow that then
1179[13:53] <@Sniper> Yes
1180[13:53] <@Sniper> because our word would be the same as copying and pasting transcripts
1181[13:53] <@Sniper> Maybe we edited them
1182[13:54] <@Sniper> There's no way for us to win the argument if no one wants to listen
1183[13:54] <@Sniper> The only person believed is Sam
1184[13:54] <@Sniper> Sam is the winner
1185[13:54] <@Sniper> Sam can do no wrong
1186[13:55] <@Sniper> People in the public have already made their choice
1187[13:55] <@Sniper> As stupid and ill informed as it is
1188[13:55] <Aurora^> He's admitted himself that he got too angry and made insults, and isn't making himself better by choosing to go through with this
1189[13:55] <@duggles> well shouldn't that be sufficient?
1190[13:56] <@duggles> given he continues to cherrypick chat logs to attack people
1191[13:56] <@duggles> shouldn't that be giving a sufficient description of his personality and attitude towards the team?
1192[13:57] <@duggles> (I wholeheartedly expect some sort of response to that on the steam subreddit)
1193[13:57] <Aurora^> But his reasons - he's given many, and those are primarily concerned with the development practises and the lead developer's attitude. Perhaps getting angry didn't help his case, but those things should still be addressed
1194[13:58] <Aurora^> No?
1195[13:58] <@duggles> There were attempts to address some of the concerns he had
1196[13:58] <@duggles> we had a very long meeting about this back near the start of the year
1197[13:58] <@duggles> and we came up with a lot of ideas that were intended to help and solve the problems there were outlined
1198[13:59] <Aurora^> I'm not trying to act like an angry, entitled customer here. I'm just a player and content creator, among many others, concerned with where the game is going and whether it's worth investing time in it or not.
1199[13:59] <@duggles> but it ended up not happening because sam quit anyway
1200[13:59] <@duggles> (that said, some of the ideas still were set up)
1201[14:01] <Aurora^> Is Sam cherrypicking the logs?
1202[14:01] <@duggles> Aurora^: i can understand where you're coming from. whenever there is controversy in an organization, people who are involved get concerned. but the game is still going, there are still coders, mappers, artists, and testers on the team. there's a healthy playerbase (it's been pretty stable for the last month or two) and there are a bunch of features that are going to be implemented
1203[14:01] <@duggles> yeah, ofc he is. 
1204[14:01] <+Misfire> looks like a direct response to what you said on the sc forums...
1205[14:02] <+Misfire> first
1206[14:02] <Aurora^> What do the unedited logs look like then?
1207[14:02] <@duggles> he was trying to discredit me by saying i didn't understand some dll linkage behaviour of extern? let's pull out about 10 lines of chat where i admitted i didn't know that operatin system behaviour
1208[14:03] <@duggles> he was trying to discredit me by saying I was lying about the linux client? he pulls out some log about me and dynamite saying the client is "working" (we did mention there were bugs in the log)
1209[14:04] <@Sniper> The linux client definitely isn't ready for launch yet
1210[14:04] <@duggles> he wants to discredit sniper about the precache model function? let's pull out the old 'john carmack' quote. But let's ignore the suggestion i made about having a fail-softly function to query this thing. 
1211[14:27] <@Sniper> <Aurora^> I'm not trying to act like an angry, entitled customer here. I'm just a player and content creator, among many others, concerned with where the game is going and whether it's worth investing time in it or not.
1212[14:27] <@Sniper> And as I keep telling everyone, the team hasn't left the building
1213[14:27] <@Sniper> Sam isn't the reason why Sven Co-op exists
1214[14:28] * gr| (~ask@gamesurge-cc454cd3.mcdonellelectric.com) Quit (Quit)
1215[14:28] <@Sniper> I already have a few graphical updates in the queue
1216[14:28] <@Sniper> We have other people doing things as well
1217[14:29] <@Sniper> Nothing has changed
1218[14:29] <@Sniper> When you work on a game like this, you need to produce content in ALL areas
1219[14:32] <@Sniper> I'm really more tweaked than anything that people think Sam's departure means Angelscript is doomed
1220[14:32] <@Sniper> I'm the asshole that brought angelscript to the game. Sam implemented it and I helped where I could in my time constraints.
1221[14:32] <@Sniper> I made giant posts about why we should go with Angelscript instead of Lua
1222[14:33] <@Sniper> Angelscript has my full support - if I was dead we wouldn't have added it to the game.
1223[14:33] <@Sniper> I don't know how else to explain this topic here
1224[14:34] <@Sniper> What the facts are is that Angelscript was MY project
1225[14:34] <@Sniper> I was entirely *responsible* for the entire damn thing
1226[14:35] <@Sniper> I knew it would be better handled by someone else (given time constraints at the time), so I assigned it to Sam
1227[14:35] <@Sniper> Sam did a great job (initially) and we gave him the title of angelscript dev
1228[14:35] <@Sniper> The problem is Sam didn't finish angelscript's implementation
1229[14:35] <@Sniper> He started working on other side projects in the game
1230[14:36] <@Sniper> Those are the facts
1231[14:36] <@Sniper> Gun to my head, pull the trigger, facts.
1232[15:26] <@Sniper> "A lead programmer is a software engineer in charge of one or more software projects. Alternative titles include development lead, technical lead, lead software engineer, software design engineer lead (SDE lead), software development manager, software manager, or lead application developer."
1233[15:26] <@Sniper> I think I'm fitting my job description pretty well
1234[15:27] <@Sniper> "Although the responsibilities are primarily technical, lead programmers also generally serve as an interface between the programmers and management, have ownership of development plans and have supervisorial responsibilities in delegating work and ensuring that software projects come in on time and under budget. Lead programmers also serve as technical advisers to management and provide 
1235[15:27] <@Sniper> programming perspective on requirements. Typically a lead programmer will oversee a development team of between two and ten programmers, with three to five often considered the ideal size. Teams larger than ten programmers tend to become unmanageable without additional structure. A lead programmer normally reports to a manager with overall project or section responsibility, such as a director 
1236[15:27] <@Sniper> or product unit manager (PUM)."
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1255[19:20] * ExDeveloper (mibbit@5f81b3b2.81324023.b9e3526f.IP4) has joined #svencoop
1256[19:20] <ExDeveloper> http://puu.sh/pk8V1/68a360e518.jpg
1257[19:20] <ExDeveloper> This is what your leader thinks of anyone who speaks negatively
1258[19:20] <ExDeveloper> Sniper has driven away many coders over the years
1259[19:20] <ExDeveloper> The team is told privately not to contradict anything official
1260[19:20] <ExDeveloper> Thats how oppressive goverments works
1261[19:21] <ExDeveloper> But you folk dont care about the players do you
1262[19:21] <ExDeveloper> Svc-bad could have been fixed by solokiller so fast
1263[19:21] <ExDeveloper> And yet hes the problem
1264[19:21] <ExDeveloper> Wow
1265[19:23] <@Puchi> both sides are the problem
1266[19:24] <ExDeveloper> https://www.reddit.com/r/Steam/comments/4mnkui/why_lead_dev_is_ruining_sven_coop_a_free_mod_for/
1267[19:25] <ExDeveloper> Puchi is the only one here with common sense
1268[19:25] <strazh> not going to disagree that the public reaction could be stifling progress on the mod, but the rate at which progress was going
1269[19:25] * ExDeveloper (mibbit@5f81b3b2.81324023.b9e3526f.IP4) Quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
1270[19:25] <@Puchi> not even Dynamite or Kate? :O
1271[19:25] <strazh> there's not much to have been stifled at all
1272[19:25] <@Puchi> or Stimor!
1273[19:25] <@Puchi> wait.
1274[19:26] * Deepflame sets mode: +b *mibbit*!*@*
1275[19:26] <@Deepflame> Guess I'ma have to leave it for a bit longer :P
1276[19:26] <@Puchi> :]
1277[19:26] <@Puchi> byebye from the sane side ;D
1278[19:26] <strazh> did you just ban all of mibbit
1279[19:27] <@Puchi> he did
1280[19:27] <@Deepflame> I certainly did
1281[19:27] <@Puchi> not part of the sane side, i feel lonely here
1282[19:28] <@Puchi> heeeeeeeyyyyyyyyy
1283[19:28] <@Puchi> i am like luke skywalker!
1284[19:28] <strazh> how do you figure
1285[19:28] <@Puchi> i am the only one on the bright side, apparently, and i have to fight the dark side!
1286[19:28] <@Puchi> whatever there is to fight
1287[19:29] <strazh> luke wasn't really a 'light' side kind of guy, he gave into his temptations a lot and straight up abandoned his jedi training
1288[19:29] <strazh> i think obi wan even says "only the sith think in absolutes"
1289[19:29] <@Puchi> well, that portion of jedi training he had :D
1290[19:30] <strazh> jedi way isn't about fighting the dark side though, it's about making peace with them and bringing them back to the light
1291[19:30] <Aurora^> It just occurred to me; John Carmack released the source code to Doom for everyone to modify for free
1292[19:30] <@Puchi> the jedi are jerks actually
1293[19:30] <@Puchi> they destroyed the sith temple and build their own on top
1294[19:30] <strazh> what like this https://github.com/ValveSoftware/halflife
1295[19:31] <strazh> sith that lived a long time didn't typically think in absolutes like vader did
1296[19:31] <strazh> by walking in the gray area they stayed alive much longer, often had friends and family
1297[19:31] <strazh> all of which was prohibited by the restrictive jedi, and considered weak by the sith
1298[19:32] <@Puchi> yeah
1299[19:32] <strazh> you see love is the strongest bond human psycology makes, and love for something will always inspire
1300[19:32] <strazh> a greated conflict than any hate
1301[19:34] <@Puchi> let me find a little comic strip
1302[19:38] <@Puchi> http://imgur.com/A6N4pFh
1303[19:38] <@Puchi> found
1304[19:38] <@Puchi> but when you think about: truth
1305[19:39] <MirroR> jedi's are more evil in some cases than sith's
1306[19:39] <MirroR> when you think about deeply this stuff eventhough truthfully this wasnt supposed to be so deep stuff its typical black and white contrast just
1307[19:40] <@Puchi> yeah
1308[19:40] <MirroR> when you have to be emotionless drone for the jedi order is that really life you would want
1309[19:41] <MirroR> i can understand why these sith's just snap and wanna kill everyone lol
1310[19:41] <@Puchi> hahahha :D
1311[19:41] <MirroR> well there is some really selfish power hungry persons there too
1312[19:41] <MirroR> both sides
1313[19:42] <@Puchi> there are always. even in real life
1314[19:42] <MirroR> yea
1315[19:42] <MirroR> i personally would be prolyl sith if i was in star wars universe
1316[19:42] <MirroR> well prolly trying to be more inbetween
1317[19:42] <MirroR> sith's goes too much in absolutes sometimes
1318[19:45] <MirroR> been star wars fan since i was young kid
1319[19:45] <MirroR> always loved sith's more than jedi's lol
1320[19:46] <strazh> easier to identify with them, passionate warriors usually with noble intentions or self-serving goals
1321[19:46] <strazh> where as the jedi just want people to be quiet and in-line
1322[19:48] <MirroR> yea
1323[19:48] <MirroR> well noble intentions sidious example never had that
1324[19:48] <MirroR> vader had
1325[19:48] <MirroR> thats why i love vader he has so much inner conflict going on in old trilogy
1326[19:58] <+Stimor> i also relate to killing small children
1327[19:58] <strazh> whatever gets your lightsaber up
1328[19:58] <+Stimor> noble child killing!
1329[19:58] <MirroR> but wasnt those kids threat for goverment? :D
1330[19:59] <+Stimor> yes they all must go
1331[19:59] <MirroR> hey in 10 years they would be a big threat
1332[19:59] <+Stimor> i guess as jedis they may have wanted to stop more child murdering from happening
1333[20:00] <MirroR> it would have been nice to see vader kill emperor earlier and take his place
1334[20:00] <MirroR> atleast someone with morals leading the thing
1335[20:01] <+Stimor> child murdering morals
1336[20:02] <MirroR> he was young blinded by rage and blinder by propaganda emperor fed him
1337[20:02] <MirroR> he started to realise it at old years
1338[20:03] <+Stimor> yeah he was a lot more chill in his later years
1339[20:03] <+Stimor> blowing up entire planets
1340[20:03] <MirroR> yes by order of emperor
1341[20:04] <MirroR> he feared him a lot and obeyed cause he had nothing else
1342[20:04] <MirroR> then meeting luke made him think about all that
1343[20:04] <+Stimor> nothing a little apology wont fix
1344[20:07] <+Stimor> i would be a jedi but leave the order because i cant have a pink lightsaber and it will leave me bitter
1345[20:07] * elchupacabra (~tomchattl@elchupacabra.bites.gamesurge) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1346[20:08] <MirroR> well he paid the price he sacrificed himself for greater good
1347[20:08] <MirroR> for me it purifies those mistakes he did the death
1348[20:09] <@Puchi> http://imgur.com/NcJwy
1349[20:12] * elchupacabra (~tomchattl@elchupacabra.bites.gamesurge) has joined #svencoop
1350[20:12] <@Puchi> http://imgur.com/Kb9het9
1351[20:12] <@Puchi> that's what i searched for
1352[20:14] <MirroR> lol
1353[20:22] <+Stimor> https://youtu.be/bYWAHuFbLoc?t=668
1354[20:22] <YouTube> Title: Mr. Plinkett's Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith Review :: Duration: 1h 41m 13s :: Comments: 956 :: Views: 145.222 :: Rating: 97%
1355[20:22] <+Stimor> positive changes
1356[20:22] <MirroR> lol yea that
1357[20:22] <MirroR> positive changes
1358[20:24] <strazh> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhO7Gu6DiT0
1359[20:24] <YouTube> Title: how to scare a penguin :: Duration: 11s :: Comments: 69 :: Views: 114.374 :: Rating: 100%
1360[20:25] <MirroR> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0ffCICQ-bU
1361[20:25] <YouTube> Title: Darth Matt | Robot Chicken | Adult Swim :: Duration: 2m 31s :: Comments: 2.193 :: Views: 4.151.186 :: Rating: 98%
1362[20:33] <strazh> when the due process fails you just right
1363[20:33] * strazh pose
1364[20:45] <@Sniper> <ExDeveloper> <--- Probably CryoKeen I assume
1365[20:45] <@Sniper> What everything comes down to is Sam wanted to do things his own way, fuck the rest of the team members
1366[20:46] <@Sniper> He's a huge hypocrite
1367[20:46] <@Sniper> Attacking the team like the way he did was childish at best
1368[20:46] <@Sniper> He's better off working on some other project
1369[20:46] <@Sniper> That's why we got into arguments and pissing matches, and that's why he left the team
1370[20:47] <@Sniper> He violated our policies and so we banned him
1371[20:49] <@Sniper> The fact that anyone thinks they know more than our own team is ridiculous
1372[20:50] <@Sniper> We're here to work on a game project, and we're working on what we think is fun
1373[20:50] <@Sniper> If someone thinks we've done a shitty job somewhere in the game, too bad
1374[20:51] <@Sniper> Go jump in a river
1375[20:51] <@Sniper> Go play COD15
1376[20:52] <@Sniper> The rest of the people on the team actually care about fucking Half-Life
1377[20:53] <@Sniper> We care about co-operative play, and we're not here to rewrite the entire engine from scratch
1378[20:53] <@Sniper> No, we don't have Unreal Engine 4 graphics, but no one gives a shit. 
1379[20:53] <@Sniper> That's not the focus of our game. Anyone that thinks it should be is completely off base.
1380[20:54] <@Sniper> The flashlight problem I hear about every fucking day
1381[20:54] <@Sniper> This is well known, we're going to address it, but why not go attack Valve for programming the feature?
1382[20:55] <@Sniper> Sven Co-op was never about "FIX ALL THE THINGS!", it was about taking Half-Life, and playing with your friends in multiplayer.
1383[20:56] <@Sniper> We can't fix flashlights unless we change the rendering in the game engine.
1384[20:56] <@Sniper> We JUST removed software mode, this shit takes time and patience.
1385[20:56] <@Sniper> Valve took 5 years to release Half-Life 2, and they were paid to do it.
1386[20:57] <@Sniper> I'm almost *ENTIRELY CERTAIN* I am going to get attacked because software mode is gone in the next update
1387[20:57] <+Stimor> so overall its http://www.saidaonline.com/en/newsgfx/crying%20kid%20i%20want%20that%20toy.JPG
1388[20:57] <@Sniper> EXACTLY
1389[20:57] <@Puchi> werent you already attacked for planning to remove software mode?
1390[20:57] <@Sniper> Yes multiple times
1391[20:58] <@Sniper> We don't official support software mode as of a few patches ago, I think 4.0
1392[20:58] <@Sniper> *officially
1393[20:58] <@Sniper> People still use it
1394[20:58] <@Sniper> So, there's a progression of features and we are trying to rank projects according to need
1395[20:59] <@Sniper> Some people have trouble using the flashlight in half-life. The problem is, the original Half-Life SOMEHOW MANAGES TO CONTINUE TO RUN FOR PEOPLE THIS WAY 
1396[20:59] <@Sniper> Fixing the flashlight IS low priority. That is NOT our core objective.
1397[20:59] <@Sniper> However it is *WELL KNOWN* that we *SHOULD* fix it
1398[21:00] <@Puchi> eventually it gets fixed. it doesnt break the game, crashes the server or insults your mom, so it's not top priority
1399[21:00] <@Sniper> Software mode just got removed as well as countless other components, this means the code base is a bit simpler to work with.
1400[21:00] <@Sniper> We have to update the opengl rendering routines to support pixel shaders and a ton of other bullshit
1401[21:00] <@Sniper> Before we get there the god damn renderer needs to be remade
1402[21:01] <@Sniper> Before we get there, we have a bunch of networking problems we've solved and bug fixes in the game code base and new features and etc. etc. etc.
1403[21:01] <@Sniper> So I don't understand why people are treating us like a AAA game studio
1404[21:02] <@Sniper> This is a hobby project by *EVERYONE* on the team as we receive no compensation
1405[21:03] <@Sniper> People bitched and moaned about how r_dynamic couldn't be disabled in multiplayer. We fixed this problem in the engine so that people suffering from the flashlight issue could disable it as a short term fix.
1406[21:04] <@Sniper> No one mentions this, they just say we're assholes for not upgrading Sven Co-op with Doom 4 graphics.
1407[21:04] <@Sniper> I mean I would have to talk for years to explain how many stupid things we've fixed over the years.
1408[21:05] <@Sniper> The concept of using the Half-Life 1 SDK from scratch terrifies me.
1409[21:05] <@Sniper> There are so many problems with it.
1410[21:06] <@Sniper> We just did a lot of work with half-life single player, the steam release, getting the engine updated with greater limits for mappers, and countless other updates.
1411[21:06] <@Sniper> Now that we're on Steam, things are easier to deal with and we're dealing with a code update in the engine so that we can push things out more quickly.
1412[21:07] <@Sniper> Not good enough though - members of the community think we should just quit our fucking jobs and do this shit all day.
1413[21:08] <@Sniper> I've had it up to here with this level of discontent.  Bitch and complain about how the game plays, not about how you think we should bust our asses even more so.
1414[21:09] <@Sniper> You know, constructive criticism -- that'd be really helpful right now.
1415[21:10] <@Sniper> I'm just so surprised absolutely no one from the community has bothered to voice their support for us. 
1416[21:10] <@Sniper> If even half of the people quit the team right now, Sven Co-op is dead. 
1417[21:11] <@Sniper> The game would be finished, no future releases.
1418[21:11] <@Sniper> I don't think anyone actually understands this. It's pretty sad.
1419[21:14] <@Sniper> Meh, there's my rant for the day
1420[21:15] * Bucky21659 (~Bucky2156@gamesurge-efcbd5f0.br.br.cox.net) has joined #svencoop
1421[21:18] * Bucky (~Bucky2156@gamesurge-efcbd5f0.br.br.cox.net) Quit (Ping timeout)
1422[21:20] <@Sniper> This will be in the following patch: http://www.svencoop.com/davemcd/50/of6a5-2016-03-27-0012.jpg
1423[21:20] <@Sniper> And this: http://www.svencoop.com/davemcd/50/entity_brushmodel_lighting.jpg
1424[21:21] * Puchi is now known as Puchi[CatchingSomeZ`s]
1425[21:21] <@Sniper> And this:
1426[21:21] <@Sniper> http://www.svencoop.com/davemcd/50/osprey_overbright_off.jpg
1427[21:21] <@Sniper> http://www.svencoop.com/davemcd/50/osprey_overbright_on.jpg
1428[21:22] <@Sniper> The DLLs say 2014, but my build is actually really old there
1429[21:22] <@Sniper> No model overbright is visible there
1430[21:23] <@Sniper> http://www.svencoop.com/davemcd/ham/assaultmesa2-gl_overbright0.jpg
1431[21:23] <@Sniper> http://www.svencoop.com/davemcd/ham/assaultmesa2-gl_overbright1.jpg
1432[21:23] <@Sniper> Pretty dramatic difference there
1433[21:24] <@Sniper> These effects were put on hold to be later merged after the Steam release was finished
1434[21:24] <@Sniper> gl_overbright will probably be enabled by default with the update
1435[21:24] <@Sniper> It hasn't been in Half-Life since 2000 or so.
1436[21:25] <@Sniper> Other than these few updates, I have only been focusing on bug fixes
1437[21:27] <@Sniper> Train anti-jitter is also getting finalized
1438[21:27] <@Sniper> I have that in an experimental branch
1439[21:28] <@Sniper> The next patch has berserker alien grunts
1440[21:29] <@Sniper> http://www.svencoop.com/davemcd/alien_grunt.jpg
1441[21:29] <@Sniper> Berserker grunts have no hornet guns. They move faster and swat the hell out of things.
1442[21:30] <@Sniper> Ranged alien grunts are more likely to stay put and not chase after enemies with their claws.
1443[21:30] <@Sniper> They also do less damage from melee attacks.
1444[21:31] <@Sniper> We just fixed the camera voice comm issues, that's in the next patch
1445[21:31] <@Sniper> Engine issue there
1446[21:31] <@Sniper> I could go on
1447[21:33] <@Sniper> BTW, the voice comm problem took about an hour to debug
1448[21:33] <@Dynamite> what up
1449[21:33] <@Sniper> Adam and Solokiller tried to figure it out
1450[21:33] <@Dynamite> there's nothing quite like a good nap
1451[21:33] <@Dynamite> so rested!
1452[21:34] <@Sniper> Yet I figured out a fix for it after an hour of my life was wasted. :D
1453[21:34] <@Sniper> I don't think people understand what it takes to produce a game.