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1
2I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be a Christian
3by Kyle Williams
4(c) 2005 by Kyle Williams
5Scripture taken from the HOLY BIBLE, NEW INTERNATIONAL VERSION.
6Copyright 1973, 1978, 1984 International Bible Society.
7Used by permission of Zondervan Bible Publishers.
8
9INTRODUCTION
10
11In their book I Don’t Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist (Wheaton, Ill.: Crossway Books, 2004) Norman L. Geisler and Frank Turek claim to prove that Christianity is true beyond a reasonable doubt (pages 25, 30-32, 134, 200, 203, 213, 231, 247, 273, 275, 293, 301, 354, 373, 383, 387, 388). Their foreword, written by David Limbaugh, claims that “powerful and convincing proof exists that Christianity is the one true religion...” (page 7). These are bold claims. Are they true? Let's find out:
12
13
14CHAPTER 1
15GEISLER AND TUREK ARE AGNOSTICS, TOO
16Knock, Knock.
17
18I answered the door. There was a talking book on my front porch. The book said, “Hi! I was written by Norman L. Geisler and Frank Turek. My title is I Don’t Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist. I was published in 2004 by Crossway Books of Wheaton, Illinois.”
19
20“That’s a mouthful,” I said. “May I call you Atheist for short?”
21
22“Um. Why don’t you call me G&T?”
23
24“That’s short for Geisler and Turek?”
25
26“Right,” said the book. “I’m from the church down the street.”
27
28“I’m Kyle.”
29
30“Kyle, do you mind if I ask you a spiritual question?”
31
32“Go ahead.”
33
34“Kyle, if you were to die tonight and stand before God, and God were to ask you, ‘Why should I let you into my heaven?’ what would you say?”
35
36“I would ask him, ‘Who are you?’ and ‘What makes you think I want to get into your heaven?’ To tell you the truth: I don’t believe in God. I’m an atheist.”
37
38“You’re an atheist?”
39
40“That’s right.”
41
42“Well, are you absolutely sure there is no God?” the book asked.
43
44I paused and said, “Well, no, I’m not absolutely sure. I guess it’s possible there might be a god.”
45
46“So you’re not really an atheist, then – you’re an agnostic,” the book said, “because an atheist says, ‘I know there is no God,’ and an agnostic says ‘I don’t know whether there is a God.’”
47
48“My turn,” I said. “Are you a Christian? Do you believe in God?”
49
50“Yes.”
51
52“Well, are you absolutely sure there is a God?” I asked.
53
54The book paused and said, “Well, I’m not absolutely sure. I guess it’s possible there might not be a God. My authors wrote on page 25, ‘Whatever we’ve concluded about the existence of God, it’s always possible that the opposite conclusion is true.’”
55
56“So you’re not really a Christian, then – you’re an agnostic,” I informed the book, “because a Christian says, ‘I know there is a God,’ and an agnostic says ‘I don’t know whether there is a God.’”
57
58“Yeah ... alright; so I guess I’m an agnostic then,” the book admitted.
59
60Noticing the book’s bewilderment, I decided it was time to let it off the hook. I said, “By your definition, an agnostic is one who has the integrity and intellectual honesty to admit that he is not absolutely sure about the existence of God. Being agnostic, then, is a good thing. Anyone can be agnostic, no matter what conclusions he has drawn. You have drawn the conclusion that God exists, and because you also believe in Jesus, you correctly call yourself a Christian. I have drawn the opposite conclusion, and I correctly call myself an atheist. Yet we are both agnostic, too; we both admit the possibility, no matter how remote we think it is, that our conclusions are wrong. So you are an agnostic Christian and I am an agnostic atheist.”
61
62“I would rather call myself Christian than agnostic,” murmured the book between its lines.
63
64“And I would rather be called an atheist. So why don’t we drop the ‘agnostic’ moniker?”
65
66"Good idea," the book sighed with relief. Then it continued, "So how did you reach the conclusion that God does not exist?"
67
68“The same way I reached the conclusion that fairies don’t exist. Nobody has shown me any convincing evidence.”
69
70The book launched its million-dollar question: “Would you be willing to look at my evidence?”
71
72“For God or fairies?” I winked.
73
74“God,” laughed the book.
75
76I liked the book’s sense of humor, so I invited the book into my home. I poured a glass of ice water for myself. Because books don’t like water, I put some ink and whiteout on the coffee table. I was curious to see how G&T would use the liquids by the end of our discussion.
77
78
79CHAPTER 2
80FAITH VERSUS REASON
81G&T (p 51): Have you ever asked yourself why people believe what they believe?
82
83Kyle: That question perplexes me all the time. I think most people adopt the beliefs of their parents, friends, or their culture. They don’t even think about it. That would explain why you have entire countries that are predominantly Islamic, Buddhist or Catholic, for example.
84
85G&T (p 51-52): I would categorize these as sociological reasons for belief. Do you think sociological reasons alone can lead you to the truth?
86
87Kyle: No. It was only by chance that I was born into a Mormon family. I had no choice. If I had been loyal to the sociological default, I would still be Mormon. And the child who is born by chance into an Islamic society would still be Islamic. That has nothing to do with truthfulness.
88
89G&T (p 51): Good. Why else do people believe what they believe?
90
91Kyle: Some people accept certain beliefs that make them feel secure. They seek comfort, peace of mind, meaning, purpose, hope, or a sense of identity.
92
93G&T (p 51-52): I categorize these as psychological reasons for belief. Are these good enough reasons to believe something?
94
95Kyle: No, not if you’re looking for the truth. Reality is sometimes frightening and troubling. You can escape into a comforting fantasy from time to time, but if you don’t come out of it, you can become delusional. And that's a dangerous way to live.
96
97G&T (p 51): I agree. Why else do people believe what they believe?
98
99Kyle: Some people believe in holy scriptures, or churches, or pastors, priests, gurus, rabbis, or imams.
100
101G&T (p 51-53): Let’s call these religious reasons for belief. Should you believe something just because some religious source or holy book says so?
102
103Kyle: No. All these religions, with their books and leaders, contradict one another.
104
105G&T (p 53): Right. So we have to judge which religion, if any, is true. But we can’t use sociological, psychological or religious reasons for judging religions. There must be something else.
106
107Kyle: I prefer logic, reason, science and evidence.
108
109G&T (p 51, 53): Let’s call these philosophical reasons for belief. Is something worth believing if it’s rational, if it’s supported by evidence, and if it best explains all the data?
110
111Kyle: Yes, of course.
112
113G&T (p 53): I agree. By exposing inadequate justifications for beliefs, the way is cleared for the seeker of truth to find adequate justifications. I will attempt to show you good reason and evidence to support belief in God and Christianity.
114
115Kyle: I’m skeptical that you will succeed, but I applaud the attempt.
116
117G&T (p 54): Thank you. You know, there are many false beliefs in the world – beliefs that are based on subjective preference rather than logic and evidence.
118
119Kyle: Of course.
120
121G&T (p 53-54): Well, I’m here to tell you that any teaching, religious or otherwise, is worth trusting only if it points to the truth. Are you ready to give up subjective preferences in favor of objective facts – facts discovered through logic, evidence and science?
122
123Kyle: Yes. I will follow the truth wherever it leads. Will you?
124
125G&T (p 66-69): I should hope so! Truth is vitally important. Apathy about truth is dangerous.
126
127Kyle: I couldn’t agree more.
128
129G&T (p 56): So, are you familiar with the basics of logic? Do you know, for example, what the Law of Noncontradiction is?
130
131Kyle: Yes. It means a claim can’t be both true and false at the same time, in the same sense.
132
133G&T (p 62): Good. How about the Law of the Excluded Middle?
134
135Kyle: That means something either is or is not. For example, either God exists, or he does not. There is no third alternative. Now, it is possible that God exists in the imagination, but not literally, but these are two different claims. Either God exists in the imagination, or he does not exist in the imagination. Either God exists literally, or he does not exist literally.
136
137G&T (p 63-64): You’ve got it. You know how a syllogism works? Deduction? Induction?
138
139Kyle: Yes, I think so. They just make common sense. If I have any question about them, I’ll ask when we come to them.
140
141G&T: Good enough.
142
143Kyle: You're not like other missionaries. Most of them want me to believe them without evidence.
144
145G&T (p53-54,159-160,213): Not I. I want you to discover the truth by reason, logic and evidence. I will prove that God exists without using the Bible.
146
147Kyle: I like that. Let’s get started with some evidence.
148
149
150CHAPTER 3
151WAS THERE A BEGINNING?
152G&T (p 74-75): One of the oldest and strongest arguments for the existence of God is the Cosmological Argument:
153
1541. Everything that had a beginning had a cause.
1552. The universe had a beginning.
1563. Therefore, the universe had a cause.
157Kyle: I can accept your first premise: “Everything that had a beginning had a cause.” The Law of Causality makes sense. I’m not so sure about your second premise. Did the universe really have a beginning? Doesn’t the word ‘universe’ mean everything that exists? If God existed, for example, wouldn’t God be part of the universe?
158G&T (p 94): Well, if you define ‘universe’ to include God, then no, the universe did not have a beginning, because God never had a beginning. If God had a beginning, we would have the impossible situation of something emerging from nothing. Nothing comes from nothing.
159
160Kyle: So, how do you define the word ‘universe’?
161
162G&T (p 79-80, 92-93): By ‘universe,’ I mean space, time and matter. I sometimes call this the ‘space-time universe.’ Everything that exists outside of space, time and matter is not part of the universe.
163
164Kyle: Okay. So the “universe” consists of four dimensions – length, breadth, height and time. I've heard about String Theory, which suggests there are eleven dimensions. Assuming String Theory is correct, the remaining seven dimensions are outside of the space-time universe.
165
166G&T: Do you have evidence to support String Theory?
167
168Kyle: No. All I'm saying is that you have placed God outside of our four dimensions. Therefore, if God exists at all, he must exist in other dimensions. Whether String Theory is correct or not, you must believe in other dimensions.
169
170G&T: That sounds like a reasonable conclusion.
171
172Kyle: So it would be more accurate to restate your Cosmological Argument this way:
173
1741. Everything that had a beginning had a cause.
1752. Space, time and matter had a beginning.
1763. Therefore, space, time and matter had a cause.
177G&T: If you insist.
178Kyle: I do. I think the word ‘universe’ is misleading if it doesn’t include everything that exists.
179
180G&T: So, do you believe that space, time and matter had a beginning?
181
182Kyle: I can understand matter coming from immaterial stuff. But a universe without space? That’s inconceivable. A universe without time is also counterintuitive. How could anything exist outside of time? It sounds too bizarre for belief.
183
184G&T (90): If you think it through, a beginning of time is rationally inescapable.
185
186Kyle: Really?
187
188G&T (91): Yes. Our timeline is undeniably finite.
189
190Kyle: I’m from Missouri. Show me.
191
192G&T (p 90): Kalam is Arabic for ‘eternal.’
193
194Kyle: According to William Lane Craig, kalam means ‘speech.’ I have a critique of Craig’s book, The Kalam Cosmological Argument, on my website (http://www.heartoftn.net/users/shagbark/kalam.html). But go on.
195
196G&T (p 90-91): The Kalam Argument goes like this:
197
1981. An infinite number of days has no end.
1992. Today is the end of history.
2003. Therefore, there were not an infinite number of days before today.
201Kyle: For time to be finite, it must have both a beginning and an end.
202G&T: Right.
203
204Kyle: There are two classes of infinite time: Time that has a beginning, but no end is a potential infinite. The future is a potential infinite. Time that has an end but no beginning is an actual infinite. The past is an actual infinite.
205
206G&T: Unless there was a beginning.
207
208Kyle: Right. If there were a beginning, the past would be finite. But your argument fails to prove that there was a beginning.
209
210G&T: How?
211
212Kyle: Your first premise – “An infinite number of days has no end” – describes a potential infinite. It looks toward the future. It says nothing about the past as an actual infinite.
213
214G&T: Oh!
215
216Kyle: Neither of your premises mention the real issue – whether there was a beginning.
217
218G&T: By golly, you’re right.
219
220Kyle: Therefore, your conclusion is a non-sequitur. Your argument proves nothing. Would you care for some whiteout?
221
222G&T (p 94): Not yet. I have too much invested in my position.
223
224Kyle: The offer remains open.
225
226G&T (p 91): Thanks. But what about this: You can’t add anything to something that is infinite, but tomorrow we will add another day to our timeline.
227
228Kyle: Who says you can’t add anything to an infinite set? Of course you can. Ask any math teacher. What you probably mean is that the total number of days doesn't change. Add one day to an infinite set of days, and you still have an infinite number of days. But the new set of days has one unique day in it that it didn't have before. A day has been added to an infinite timeline.
229
230G&T (p 91): Okay.... Let’s consider this argument from a different angle. If there were an infinite number of days before today, then today would never have arrived.
231
232Kyle: The opposite is true. In an infinite number of days, every day must arrive.
233
234G&T (p 91): But you can't traverse an infinite number of days.
235
236Kyle: If you begin on a particular day and progress one day at a time, you're right. You will never traverse an infinite number of days. A beginningless timeline, though, doesn't begin on a particular day. By definition it has no beginning at all. It has been progressing day by day forever. Every day arrives precisely on schedule, and it's added to the infinite timeline.
237
238G&T: I hadn't thought about it that way.
239
240Kyle: Of course, there was never a day when a finite number of days became an infinite number of days. The number of days has always been infinite.
241
242G&T: Hmm....
243
244Kyle: The Kalam Argument, which you called “rationally inescapable,” is false. Philosophically, there is no reason to limit the number of days before today.
245
246G&T (chapter 3): Well, there is still a lot of scientific evidence. Do you believe there was a Big Bang?
247
248Kyle: I’m not sure. Scientists seem to disagree among themselves. I could do exhaustive research and come to an informed conclusion, but that would take more time and effort than I’m willing to put into it.
249
250G&T (p 42-43): So you’re agnostic when it comes to the Big Bang, right?
251
252Kyle: I suppose.
253
254G&T (p 76-84): To back up the Big Bang theory, we have what I call SURGE science:
255
256S	– The Second Law of Thermodynamics
257U	– The Universe is Expanding
258R	– Radiation from the Big Bang
259G	– Great Galaxy Seeds
260E	– Einstein’s Theory of General Relativity
261Kyle: Fascinating.
262G&T (p 62): According to the Law of the Excluded Middle, the science, as I present it, is either right, or it is wrong.
263
264Kyle: If it’s wrong, your Cosmological Argument is weak. If it’s right, your second premise is proved: Space and time had a beginning.
265
266G&T: So do you accept the science I presented as correct?
267
268Kyle: I don’t have the training to refute it. Therefore, for the sake of our discussion, I accept it as correct. Space, time and matter had a beginning. It’s counter-intuitive; it’s difficult to grasp such a bizarre concept, but for the sake of our discussion, I accept it as correct.
269
270G&T: Isn't it even more difficult to understand the past as being an actual infinite?
271
272Kyle: No. The way I see it, a beginningless past makes much more sense than time beginning out of non-time.
273
274G&T: Anyway, for the sake of the argument you accept both premises?
275
276Kyle: Yes, assuming the science to be correct.
277
278G&T: Does the conclusion follow logically from the premises?
279
280Kyle: Yes.
281
282G&T: Then you admit that space, time and matter had a cause.
283
284Kyle: Yes, assuming your science to be correct, there was a Big Bang when space, time and matter came into existence.
285
286G&T: Good. Then who is it that caused space and time to come into existence?
287
288Kyle: Who!? Don’t you mean ‘what’?
289
290G&T (p 93): Well, let’s look at the nature of whatever it is that exists outside of space and time: First, he ...
291
292Kyle: ... or it ...
293
294G&T (93): ... or it ... must be self-existent, timeless, nonspatial and immaterial.
295
296Kyle: I understand that it must be nonspatial, timeless and immaterial because it exists outside of space, time and matter. But self-existent? What do you mean by that?
297
298G&T (p 93): There are only two possibilities for anything that exists: either 1) it has always existed and is therefore uncaused, or 2) it had a beginning and was caused by something else. If space, time and matter had a beginning, then something outside of space, time and matter has always existed, uncaused. It is self-existent.
299
300Kyle: I can accept that. Something had to exist forever. But so far, you have not given any good reason that the uncaused something is a personal god.
301
302G&T (p 93): I’m getting to that. The uncaused something must be unimaginably powerful, to create the entire universe out of nothing.
303
304Kyle: Wait a minute. Instead of ‘universe,’ I think you mean space, time and matter. Right?
305
306G&T: Right.
307
308Kyle: Now, what do you mean by ‘nothing’? Nothing comes from nothing.
309
310G&T (79): ‘Nothing’ means no space, no time and no matter.
311
312Kyle: So it would be more accurate to say it this way: Whatever made the Big Bang had to be sufficiently powerful to cause space, time and matter to emerge suddenly from other dimensions.
313
314G&T (p 93): Okay. Also, the uncaused something had to be supremely intelligent, to design the universe with such incredible precision. But we’ll talk more about this in the next chapter.
315
316Kyle: So this is a wash at the moment.
317
318G&T (p 93): Yes. Just be patient. Finally, the uncaused something had to be personal, in order to choose to convert other dimensions into the time-space-material universe. An impersonal force has no ability to make choices.
319
320Kyle: Now you’re begging the question. What makes you think the emergence of space, time and matter was a personal choice? Couldn’t it have been a natural phenomenon?
321
322G&T (p 85): But there could be no natural phenomenon. Nature cannot exist outside of space, time and matter.
323
324Kyle: Our particular laws of physics might not work in other dimensions, but the other dimensions surely have some kind of order to them – some parallel to our natural laws. Otherwise, the other dimensions would be total chaos, and not even your God could exist. So if a god can exist in other dimensions, then other phenomena can occur in them, and those phenomena would occur according to the nature of those dimensions.
325
326G&T: Do you have proof that the Big Bang was caused by natural phenomena?
327
328Kyle: No, but the burden of proof is yours. Do you have proof that the Big Bang was caused by personal choice?
329
330G&T: Touché.
331
332Kyle: Indeed. So we can throw out your final point. If I understand you correctly, the only evidence you offer that a Person – a “who” rather than a “what” – was responsible for the Big Bang is that it would take intelligence to design space, time and matter.
333
334G&T (p 93-94): Looks like it. And we’ll discuss that in the next chapter. For right now, I have a question for you: If there is no God, why is there something rather than nothing at all?
335
336Kyle: That sounds like a rhetorical question. I’ll tell you the answer if you can answer this: Why is there a God rather than no God?
337
338G&T (p 94): That’s a good question. That’s a really good question.
339
340Kyle: But it doesn’t have a good answer, does it?
341
342G&T: No, I guess not.
343
344Kyle: Is there any significant difference between your question and mine?
345
346G&T: No, mine doesn’t have a good answer either.
347
348Kyle: So where are we? I agree that something caused space, time and matter to come into existence, assuming your scientific evidence is correct. But neither the Cosmological Argument nor the scientific evidence says anything about what existed before the Big Bang. It might have been a god, or it might have been another set of dimensions as complex, precise, varied and marvelous as space and time. We simply don’t know. Neither science nor philosophy tells us what may have caused the Big Bang. If you don’t mind my pointing out the obvious, you have failed, so far, to prove the existence of God.
349
350G&T: I have other chapters. Let’s go on to the Teleological Argument.
351
352
353CHAPTER 4
354WAS THE UNIVERSE DESIGNED?
355G&T (p 95, 105): Perhaps the most powerful argument for the existence of God is the Teleological Argument:
356
3571. Every design had a designer.
3582. The universe has highly complex design.
3593. Therefore, the universe had a designer.
360Kyle: I’m a bit confused by your syllogism. The words ‘design’ and ‘designer’ are so closely related that the first premise is a tautology, the second premise begs the question, and the conclusion, therefore, is meaningless. Maybe we can fix it, though. Let’s define our terms. What do you mean by ‘designer’?
361G&T (p 95-96, 106-107): A designer is an intelligent being who intentionally plans and manufactures something.
362
363Kyle: What do you mean by ‘design’?
364
365G&T (p 95-96, 102, 104-105, 107): Design is precision ...
366
367Kyle: ... and complexity?
368
369G&T (p 95, 106, 111): Yes, and complexity.
370
371Kyle: What else?
372
373G&T (p 96, 104-107): Anything that has interdependent parts that appear to be fine-tuned or delicately balanced must be designed by an intelligent being.
374
375Kyle: Because it’s complex and precise.
376
377G&T: Yes.
378
379Kyle: So we can plug your definitions into your syllogism, and clarify the Teleological Argument:
380
3811.	Complexity and precision require deliberate planning and manufacture by an intelligent being.
3822.	The universe is complex and precise.
3833.	Therefore, the universe was deliberately planned and manufactured by an intelligent being.
384G&T: That sounds right.
385Kyle: The second premise is undeniably true. The universe is precise and complex. It has interdependent parts that appear to be fine-tuned and delicately balanced.
386
387G&T: Good. Do you accept the first premise?
388
389Kyle: No. Neither do you.
390
391G&T: Don’t tell me what I accept and don’t accept.
392
393Kyle: Sorry. Let me see if I can bring you around to admitting it yourself.
394
395G&T: Good luck!
396
397Kyle: What would you say if I told you God was a simple being? If fact, God is so simple that the raw forces of nature – wind, rain, erosion, or some combination of natural forces – could easily form a new God.
398
399G&T: Perish the thought.
400
401Kyle: Would you say God is too complex and precise to be formed by the raw forces of nature?
402
403G&T: Of course!
404
405Kyle: Who designed God?
406
407G&T (p 92): Nobody. God exists eternally.
408
409Kyle: So here you have an example of something that is complex and precise, but was not designed, right?
410
411G&T: Right.
412
413Kyle: So your first premise if false. Not everything that is complex and precise requires planning and manufacture by an intelligent being. In other words, not every design requires a designer.
414
415G&T: Well, we’re not talking about God; we’re talking about the heavens and the earth.
416
417Kyle: If you can have a complex and precise god who exists eternally without being designed, why can’t I have an entire universe that exists eternally without being designed?
418
419G&T (p 92-93): But you’ve forgotten about the Big Bang. The universe can’t be eternal.
420
421Kyle: No, we’ve already discussed this. Remember, it’s only space, time and matter that were formed by the Big Bang, assuming your science is correct. The other dimensions can exist eternally, can’t they?
422
423G&T: Of course. Otherwise, God could not exist.
424
425Kyle: You seem to think that God is the only thing that existed in the other dimensions. I think the other dimensions were as varied, complex and precise as space, time and matter.
426
427G&T: You have no proof of that.
428
429Kyle: We’re in the same boat, then. You have no proof of God.
430
431G&T: Can you tell me how your universe was transformed from other dimensions to time and space?
432
433Kyle: Can you explain the mechanics of how God created the heavens and earth out of nothing?
434
435G&T: No, that’s a mystery.
436
437Kyle: Then we’re in the same boat. My scenario makes as much sense as yours. Maybe more. According to the Principle of Uniformity, the pre-Big Bang universe should look something like our space-time universe.
438
439G&T (p 117): Hey, you've read ahead. I don’t mention the Principle of Uniformity until the next chapter.
440
441Kyle: Maybe you should use it more uniformly.
442
443G&T (p 95-96): Okay, so maybe my Teleological Argument is not as persuasive as I thought it was. What about the diamond-studded Rolex watch? Isn’t that a convincing analogy?
444
445Kyle: The story of the Rolex watch is a trick. You offer two alternatives for explaining the existence of the watch: either it was formed by non-living forces of nature, or it was planned and manufactured by an intelligent watchmaker. The answer is obvious. Watches are made by intelligent beings. If the story had ended there, it would have been fine. What follows, however, is a false analogy. You put the universe in the place of the Rolex watch. Then you offer the same two alternatives: Was it formed by non-living forces of nature, or was it planned and manufactured by the biblical Watchmaker?
446
447G&T: What’s wrong with that?
448
449Kyle: It’s a false dichotomy. There are other alternatives.
450
451G&T: What other alternatives are there?
452
453Kyle: I can think of six alternatives for explaining the existence of anything. First, it was formed by the raw forces of nature. Mountains and ravines are examples.
454
455G&T (p 95-96): I offer that alternative in the Rolex story.
456
457Kyle: Right. A second alternative is that some things are man-made. Intelligent beings, who are not gods, make watches, cars, buildings and computers, for example.
458
459G&T (p 95-96): I also offer that alternative in the Rolex story.
460
461Kyle: True. A third alternative is that God made the thing. You believe that God created Adam’s body by special creation. You believe that God created the heavens and the earth.
462
463G&T: Of course.
464
465Kyle: A fourth alternative is natural reproduction. After Adam and Eve, all people are produced by natural reproduction. They are not created individually by God.
466
467G&T: Okay.
468
469Kyle: A fifth alternative is that non-intelligent beings made some things. A spider’s web, a beaver’s dam, or a beehive are examples.
470
471G&T: Good.
472
473Kyle: A sixth alternative is that the thing is eternal. You believe God is eternal. I believe the universe itself is eternal – or at least the non-temporal, nonspatial dimensions.
474
475G&T (p 95-96): So my Rolex story is not convincing?
476
477Kyle: Right. Comparing a Rolex to the universe is a false analogy, and offering only two alternatives for the existence of the universe is a false dichotomy.
478
479G&T (p 106): What about the mathematics? I show that the probability of all the anthropic principles combining in one planet by random chance is practically zero.
480
481Kyle: Again, we’re dealing with a false dichotomy. You say that the earth’s characteristics either combined by random chance, or they were designed by God. I admit the earth is very precise and complex. It’s an amazing place. But I don’t see the necessity for divine design. I believe complexity and precision are eternal characteristics of the universe. If there was a Big Bang, the precision and complexity carried over from the other dimensions.
482
483G&T (p 106): Aren’t you impressed with the magnitude of the numbers?
484
485Kyle: Not really. I could play the same numbers game to show that anything is equally improbable. For example, the improbability that I was born with my precise ancestry is staggering. Probabilities are useful for predicting the future, but anything established in the past has a probability of one hundred percent. The past is no longer a probability, but a certainty. Your numbers game is nothing but smoke and mirrors.
486
487G&T: So is there anything in my fourth chapter that persuades you?
488
489Kyle: No. The Teleological Argument is wrong because the first premise is false. Not everything that's precise and complex requires an intelligent person to plan and manufacture it. Not even a Christian can believe the Teleological argument unless he accepts that someone designed God. In your fourth chapter, you engage in false dichotomies, false analogies and mathematical illusions. You have no evidence that God designed the universe, and I don't have enough faith to accept it without evidence. Shall we see if your next chapter has anything better to offer?
490
491G&T: Good idea.
492
493
494CHAPTER 5
495WHERE DID LIFE COME FROM?
496G&T (chapter 5): Let’s talk about life on our planet. We know life exists here on Earth. How did it get here? What are its origins? My fifth chapter boils down to this syllogism:
497
4981.	Either life generated spontaneously, or an intelligent being manufactured life on Earth.
4992.	Life does not generate spontaneously.
5003.	Therefore, an intelligent being manufactured life on earth.
501Do you believe this syllogism is properly constructed?
502Kyle: Yes, the ‘either-or’ logic is valid. However, the truth of the conclusion depends on the truth of both premises.
503
504G&T: Do you believe the premises are true?
505
506Kyle: I’m inclined to believe the second premise. Unless evidence to the contrary surfaces, I don’t believe life can generate itself spontaneously.
507
508G&T: Well, you’re ahead of the Darwinists.
509
510Kyle: Thanks.
511
512G&T: How about the first premise? Is it true?
513
514Kyle: I’m having some trouble accepting the first premise. You offer two options: spontaneous generation or intelligent manufacture. Are those the only options?
515
516G&T (p 121): Well, there’s the theory of panspermia, but that’s so crazy that I don’t give it serious consideration.
517
518Kyle: What is panspermia?
519
520G&T (p 121): The suggestion that aliens deposited the first life here.
521
522Kyle: Isn’t that what you believe?
523
524G&T: Come again?
525
526Kyle: Did God deposit the first life here on Earth?
527
528G&T: Well, yes.
529
530Kyle: Is God a native of planet Earth?
531
532G&T: No.
533
534Kyle: Then isn’t God an alien?
535
536G&T: Um. Well, no. He created the earth, so how could he be an alien to it?
537
538Kyle: I see. So other than the minor point of how you define the word ‘alien,’ the panspermia theory is pretty close to your own.
539
540G&T: But in panspermia, the aliens are not gods.
541
542Kyle: You know what the Principle of Uniformity is, don’t you?
543
544G&T (p 117): Of course. It’s the central principle in forensic science. By the Principle of Uniformity, we assume that the world worked in the past just like it works today, especially when it comes to causes.
545
546Kyle: So, wouldn’t the Principle of Uniformity favor non-gods over gods?
547
548G&T: Can you explain how non-gods would travel to Earth?
549
550Kyle: Can you explain how a god would travel to Earth?
551
552G&T: With God, all things are possible. He’s not hindered by a physical body. He’s immaterial – not made of matter.
553
554Kyle: Well, maybe the non-gods are immaterial. Maybe they’re more intelligent and powerful than we are.
555
556G&T: How could non-gods breach the gap between the immaterial and the material?
557
558Kyle: How could God do it?
559
560G&T: I see. Every objection I raise about your theory applies equally to mine.
561
562Kyle: Right. We're both in the same boat. Origins are a mystery for everyone.
563
564G&T (p 121): Okay, so maybe panspermia is not as far-out as I thought it was. The problem is, though, that panspermia doesn’t solve the problem of the origin of life.
565
566Kyle: I thought this chapter was about the origin of life on Earth. Now you’re talking about life in the universe.
567
568G&T: Well, my fifth chapter is a little vague on that distinction.
569
570Kyle: I noticed.
571
572G&T (p 121): But the point is, panspermia doesn’t explain how life began in the universe. It simply puts it off another step: who made the intelligent aliens?
573
574Kyle: I can say the same thing about theistic creation. It doesn’t explain the origin of life. It only puts it off another step: who made God?
575
576G&T (p 92): Nobody. God is eternal.
577
578Kyle: Maybe the aliens are eternal.
579
580G&T: You mean immortal?
581
582Kyle: Not necessarily. They could be mortals, but their race could stretch back through an infinite number of generations.
583
584G&T: What evidence do you have for that theory?
585
586Kyle: What evidence do you have for God? Your Cosmological Argument doesn’t work. Neither does your Teleological Argument. You have set out to prove the existence of God without reference to the Bible. Where is your evidence?
587
588G&T: I still think theistic creation makes more sense than panspermia.
589
590Kyle: I suspect that’s your bias speaking. You’re accustomed to the theory of theistic creation, so it doesn’t seem strange to you. But an objective person who didn’t grow up in Sunday School would probably think panspermia makes at least as much sense as theistic creation. Besides those aren’t the only options.
591
592G&T: We’ve mentioned three options so far: spontaneous generation, theistic creation and panspermia. What else is there?
593
594Kyle: It depends on whether you’re talking about life in the universe or life on earth. As far as life in the universe is concerned, you believe that God is the first life, and he existed forever, without beginning.
595
596G&T (p 92): Right.
597
598Kyle: I think a more credible theory is that all life forms come from an infinite line of ancestors. Life itself – with all its variety – is eternal.
599
600G&T: Then how did this great variety of life arrive on earth?
601
602Kyle: One option is that the Earth is eternal, and life has always been here.
603
604G&T (chapter 3): But scientific evidence tends to discredit that option.
605
606Kyle: Right. Or life generated spontaneously on Earth.
607
608G&T (chapter 5): Highly unlikely.
609
610Kyle: I agree. Or maybe Earth life is the naturally reproduced offspring of life elsewhere in the universe.
611
612G&T (p 121): Panspermia.
613
614Kyle: Or God created life on Earth.
615
616G&T: That’s my favorite.
617
618Kyle: Or non-gods created life on Earth.
619
620G&T: Don’t you think we can eliminate spontaneous generation and an eternal Earth?
621
622Kyle: Sure. That leaves us with panspermia, creation by God and creation by non-gods. In all three alternatives, life existed in some form before coming to Earth.
623
624G&T: I believe pre-Earth life was in the form of one person alone – God.
625
626Kyle: And I keep my mind open to the possibility that pre-Earth life was as varied and complex as Earth life. None of the three theories contradicts the Big Bang and related sciences. Neither of us can explain how the pre-Earth life traveled to planet Earth from elsewhere.
627
628G&T: It’s a mystery, isn’t it?
629
630Kyle: Yes. In two of the three theories, Earth life is engineered and manufactured by super-intelligent creators. In panspermia, Earth life is the natural reproduction of pre-Earth life. Of course, we see natural reproduction every day. We have never witnessed a robot or a mannequin come to life. We can reproduce life through our genitals, but we cannot engineer or manufacture life by intelligent design. We have not discovered any being with the super-intelligence required for manufacturing life. Therefore, panspermia should be considered the most reasonable alternative.
631
632G&T: Unless you consider the witness of the Bible.
633
634Kyle: And that’s covered in other chapters. To this point, you have failed to prove by extra-biblical evidence that there is a god.
635
636G&T (p 117): So you don’t buy the choice between the first life (1) being created by some kind of intelligence or (2) arising by natural laws from nonliving materials?
637
638Kyle: No, your fifth chapter is a false dichotomy. You fail to consider seriously other alternatives.
639
640G&T: Shall we move on?
641
642Kyle: Sure, after one comment. What did you say near the bottom of page 132?
643
644G&T (p 132): “Intellect, free will, objective morality and human rights as well as reason, logic, design and truth can exist only if God exists.”
645
646Kyle: So far, I’ve been pretty good about addressing only the main points of your chapters. I have ignored irrelevant material. But I can’t let that statement go unchallenged. In my opinion, it’s offensive, arrogant and completely untrue. And while I’m at it, I also object to the harsh statements you make against atheists on page 68 and elsewhere. I’m not saying this to be unkind. I just want you to know that I disagree.
647
648G&T: I understand. We’ll address those issues in chapter seven. Shall we go on to chapter six now?
649
650Kyle: Sure.
651
652
653CHAPTER 6
654WHAT ABOUT EVOLUTION?
655G&T (chapter 6): We know micro-evolution occurs: a particular species of animal may develop and change over time, without turning into another species. But what do you think about macro-evolution? Do you believe one kind of animal can develop into another? Do you believe man evolved from apes?
656
657Kyle: Not necessarily. I would have to see some scientific evidence before I believe that.
658
659G&T (chapter 6): Well, the Darwinists don’t have any good evidence. In fact, there is evidence that macroevolution does not occur on Earth.
660
661Kyle: I’ll take your word for it. For the sake of the argument, I deny that one species can evolve into another. I’ll keep my mind open, though, to further scientific evidence, should any come to my attention.
662
663G&T (p 155): So, if there’s no natural explanation for the origin of new life forms, then there must be an intelligent explanation. It’s the only other option. There’s no halfway house between intelligence and nonintelligence.
664
665Kyle: That sounds like the principle you mentioned earlier. What was it?
666
667G&T (p 62): The Law of the Excluded Middle.
668
669Kyle: Of course. I agree that new life forms were either created by an intelligent being, or they were not created by an intelligent being. Is that what you’re saying?
670
671G&T: Exactly.
672
673Kyle: But you speak as if macroevolution is the only alternative to creation by an intelligent being.
674
675G&T: Isn’t it?
676
677Kyle: No, of course not. Isn’t it possible that there are no new life forms? Maybe every life form has an infinite line of ancestors. If God can be eternal, why can’t every life form be eternal?
678
679G&T: Can you explain how all these thousands of life forms arrived on planet Earth from the other dimensions?
680
681Kyle: Can you explain how God arrived on planet Earth from the other dimensions?
682
683G&T: Well, no.
684
685Kyle: Neither can I. We’re in the same boat.
686
687G&T: Which is more believable? On one hand you have a single person performing a marvelous feat by exercising incredible intelligence and unlimited power. On the other hand, you have thousands of unintelligent life forms that mysteriously pop into material existence. Which would you choose?
688
689Kyle: You seem to regard intelligence as the most powerful force in the universe, and you seem to underestimate the forces of nature. I find this very curious. Humanity keeps discovering the awesome power of nature. We peek into natural phenomena, and we are overwhelmed with its intricate complexity. Science has barely scratched the surface of how the universe works. There are powerful forces within every atom that attract some particles and repel other particles. We have discovered that the entire blueprint of a person’s body is embedded in the nucleus of every cell. Maybe the blueprint of the entire universe is embedded in each and every atom.
690
691G&T: But who created that blueprint? Surely a blueprint points to an intelligent source.
692
693Kyle: The blueprint may be eternal. Nobody created it. It simply exists.
694
695G&T: The same way I insist that God simply exists?
696
697Kyle: Right. And maybe when natural conditions are right, the complexity of the other dimensions solidifies into space, time and matter. Compare it to water. When conditions are right, it transforms from a liquid to a solid. Other conditions cause it to transform from a liquid to a gas. It’s still water, but it changes form. That’s the power of nature. Intelligence is not required. Maybe the atmospheric and geological conditions of planet Earth were different during the Cambrian period than they are today, and the various life forms in other dimensions “solidified” into a material existence, purely by natural phenomena.
698
699G&T: That sounds pretty far-out.
700
701Kyle: No more far-out than your God theory. In fact, you mentioned a principle...
702
703G&T (p 117): The Principle of Uniformity?
704
705Kyle: Yes. The Principle of Uniformity favors natural phenomena, even if we don’t fully understand them, over a super-intelligence. Compared with the forces of nature, the intelligence of man is a trifling thing, and we have absolutely no scientific evidence for any intelligence greater than man’s. Intelligence itself is a natural phenomenon. Intelligence depends on nature – not the other way around.
706
707G&T: Well, you would have a hard time proving your theory, and disproving the existence of God.
708
709Kyle: I agree. And to the same extent, you would have a hard time proving the existence of God and disproving my theory.
710
711G&T: I have one more argument to prove the existence of God.
712
713Kyle: Let’s go for it.
714
715G&T: Okay, but before we do, let’s review the scientific evidence.
716
717Kyle: Fine.
718
719
720Review of the Scientific Evidence
721G&T (p 159-160): I have attempted to prove in chapters 3 to 6 that the Intelligent Design theory is not based on the Bible. It’s a conclusion based on empirically detectable evidence, not sacred texts.
722
723Kyle: I’m glad you made the attempt. As an atheist, I require evidence outside the Bible. And what is the “empirically detectable evidence” you mention?
724
725G&T (p 166): First, the universe exploded into being out of nothing.
726
727Kyle: You mean, space, time and matter exploded into being out of other dimensions, assuming SURGE science and the Big Bang theory are correct, as you presented it.
728
729G&T: Yes, of course.
730
731Kyle: Which means that the other dimensions must be as marvelous and complex as space, time and matter.
732
733G&T: Right. I believe that the other dimensions consist of one person: God.
734
735Kyle: You have given me no reason to rule out the theory that the other dimensions are as varied and marvelous as the physical life forms we have here on Earth. You haven’t proved the necessity for a god. So your first line of evidence fails. What else did you have?
736
737G&T (p 166): Second, this tiny, remote planet called Earth has over 100 fine-tuned, life-enabling constants.
738
739Kyle: How do you interpret this fact?
740
741G&T (p 96, 165): A super-intelligent being must have tweaked the laws of physics.
742
743Kyle: I disagree. I believe the laws of nature have been marvelously complex forever. No tweaking was ever required.
744
745G&T: You have no proof.
746
747Kyle: Do you?
748
749G&T: No.
750
751Kyle: Okay. What’s next?
752
753G&T (p 166): Life has been observed to arise only from existing life.
754
755Kyle: This fact actually favors panspermia over creation. Life has never been observed to be created.
756
757G&T (p 166): Life consists of thousands and even millions of volumes of empirically detectable specified complexity.
758
759Kyle: That is a marvelous thing, but it does nothing to prove the existence of gods. Life has always been marvelously complex through all eternity.
760
761G&T (p 167): Life changes cyclically, and only within a limited range.
762
763Kyle: In the present conditions of our planet Earth, yes. This doesn’t prove the existence of gods. It only describes certain facts of nature.
764
765G&T (p 167): Life cannot be built or modified gradually.
766
767Kyle: The irreducible complexity of life is eternal – not created.
768
769G&T (p 167): Life is molecularly isolated between basic types.
770
771Kyle: Which could easily have been the case eternally.
772
773G&T (p 167): Life leaves a fossil record of fully formed creatures that appear suddenly, do not change, and then disappear suddenly.
774
775Kyle: That’s consistent with varied life forms in other dimensions, and natural phenomena which cause these life forms to manifest themselves in space, time and matter. Gods are not required.
776
777G&T: Hmm....
778
779Kyle: In these four chapters you have utterly failed to prove the existence of God. Your scientific evidence falls short of its mark. It proves that the universe is marvelous, complex and mysterious. It does not explain why. Thrusting God into the equation raises more problems than it solves. It seems more reasonable to live with the mystery, while exploring theories that are more consistent with the Principle of Uniformity.
780
781
782CHAPTER 7
783THE MORAL LAW ARGUMENT
784G&T (p 171): The Moral Law Argument goes like this:
785
7861. Every law has a law giver.
7872. There is a Moral Law.
7883. Therefore, there is a Moral Law Giver.
789Kyle: You’re joking, right?
790G&T: Do I sound like I’m joking?
791
792Kyle: Just look at your first premise. What do you mean by “Every law has a law giver”?
793
794G&T (p 171): Of course every law has a lawgiver. There can be no legislation unless there’s a legislature. Moreover, if there are moral obligations, there must be someone to be obligated to.
795
796Kyle: I think we need to define our terms. Your seventh chapter doesn’t seem to deal with the laws of the land. Legislators write the United States Code, and judges write opinions in court cases. We’re not talking about such legislation or legal precedent, are we?
797
798G&T (p 171): No, we’re more concerned about moral laws. When we say the moral law exists, we mean that all people are impressed with a fundamental sense of right and wrong.
799
800Kyle: Exactly. And this fundamental sense of right and wrong is not a code written by legislators.
801
802G&T (p 170, 177, 189, 192-193): I say it is. God is the legislator who writes his moral law on our hearts.
803
804Kyle: I take that metaphorically....
805
806G&T: Of course.
807
808Kyle: Do you acknowledge that there’s a fundamental difference between laws written and enforced by human governments, and the moral sense within us?
809
810G&T: Yes.
811
812Kyle: Would you object if instead of moral “laws” we called them moral principles? That way we can more easily distinguish moral principles from the laws of the land.
813
814G&T (p 80): By all means, let’s avoid equivocation.
815
816Kyle: So your first premise would be less equivocal if it said, “Every principle has a source.”
817
818G&T: I see you replaced ‘law giver’ with ‘source.’ I guess that makes sense. ‘Principle giver’ doesn’t sound right.
819
820Kyle: So the new syllogism would look like this:
821
8221. Every principle has a source.
8232. Moral principles exist.
8243. Therefore, there is a source for moral principles.
825G&T: That’s kind of watered down. It doesn’t make as much impact as my original syllogism.
826Kyle: If you want to rely on equivocation and jump to unwarranted conclusions, you can keep your original argument. But if you are honest and forthright, this is what your original argument boils down to. Am I right?
827
828G&T: Sure.
829
830Kyle: Now, I agree with the second premise. Moral principles exist.
831
832G&T (p 172-181): How do you like my eight reasons that we know the moral “law” exists?
833
834Kyle: Generally, I agree with them and I applaud them.
835
836G&T (p 182-186): And what do you think about my six distinctions that clear up confusion about moral principles?
837
838Kyle: Again, I agree with your major points.
839
840G&T: You don’t sound completely convinced.
841
842Kyle: Well, you do jump to some unsupported conclusions. You assume that God is the only source for morality. This is especially evident in your seventh reason.
843
844G&T (p 180-181): You mean when I say, “atheists ... have no objective moral grounds,” and, “in a nontheistic world there are no rights”?
845
846Kyle: Yes, I find those statements offensive.
847
848G&T: But are they true?
849
850Kyle: No! Absolutely not!
851
852G&T: Where else can moral principles come from?
853
854Kyle: From human interaction. Every child develops his “fundamental sense of right and wrong” as part of growing up. Interaction with other human beings teaches children that it’s more comfortable to cooperate with other people than to oppose them. Hurting other people brings negative consequences. When an infant bites his mother’s nipple, he’s likely to get a gentle slap. That starts to teach the child that other people should be treated with respect. This moral sense is refined and developed as the child matures. Some people develop their moral sense more completely than others, but all sane people attain the basics of morality. Morality is a human phenomenon, and it develops from the interaction of people with other people.
855
856G&T (p 170, 177, 189, 192-193): But God writes the moral law on our hearts.
857
858Kyle: (Stunned silence)
859
860G&T: Well?
861
862Kyle: Do you know the difference between an assertion and an argument?
863
864G&T (p 191): Yes. An assertion merely states a conclusion; an argument, on the other hand, states the conclusion and then supports it with evidence.
865
866Kyle: Where is your evidence for the assertion that God is the source of our moral sense?
867
868G&T: Um ... the Bible?
869
870Kyle: But in this chapter you’re attempting to prove God’s existence without reference to the Bible. Isn’t that right?
871
872G&T (p 198): Yes, that was my intent.
873
874Kyle: But you have no extra-biblical evidence that God is the source of our moral sense, do you? I could read and reread your seventh chapter until I’m blue in the face, and I will find many assertions, but no evidence.
875
876G&T: You seem to have caught me empty handed. I have no evidence. Where is your evidence?
877
878Kyle: For one thing, you are carrying the burden of proof – trying to prove the existence of God. All I need to do is expose your lack of evidence. For another thing, it seems to be self-evident that morality is taught and learned. If you want to question the obvious, go to the library. There are any number of scientific books on how children learn morality. For now, here's an excerpt from an article on "Child Development" in the Encyclopaedia Britannica, the 2005 version on CD:
879
880Young children's growing awareness of their own emotional states, characteristics, and abilities leads to empathy—i.e., the ability to appreciate the feelings and perspectives of others. Empathy and other forms of social awareness are in turn important in the development of a moral sense. The basis of morality in children may be said to progress from a simple fear of punishment and pain to a concern for maintaining the approval of one's parents.
881G&T: Okay.
882Kyle: So we both agree that every sane human being has a moral sense of right and wrong. We only disagree on the source of that moral sense. You say God writes it on every heart. I say we learn it – like language, social skills and customs.
883
884G&T (p 177): Don’t you think morality is objective? Isn’t there an unchanging standard outside yourself?
885
886Kyle: Yes. The consensus of society is the standard outside ourselves. Its most basic moral principles never change. If you were to rewrite your seventh chapter, replacing such words as ‘God’ and ‘theism’ with ‘society,’ I would find it instructive and acceptable. Let’s go through your summary and give it a try.
887
888G&T (p 192): Alright. My first point is this: There is an absolute standard of right and wrong that is written on the hearts of every human being. People may deny it; they may suppress it; their actions may contradict it; but their reactions reveal that they know it.
889
890Kyle: Well, there’s nothing particularly theistic about that point. I accept it as written. Go on.
891
892G&T (p 192): Relativism is false. Human beings do not determine right and wrong; we discover right and wrong. If human beings determined right and wrong, then anyone would be “right” in asserting that rape, murder, the Holocaust, or any other evil is not really wrong. But we know those acts are wrong intuitively through our consciences, which are manifestations of the Moral Law.
893
894Kyle: I would change ‘human beings’ to ‘individuals.’ Humanity in general does determine right and wrong. Individuals discover it. In addition, I would put ‘moral law’ in lower case letters. I notice throughout your seventh chapter you use capital letters to imply that God is the source of morality. Pretty sneaky of you.
895
896G&T: I can’t slip anything past you, can I?
897
898Kyle: Well, not that, anyway.
899
900G&T (p 192): This Moral Law must have a source higher than ourselves because it is a prescription that is on the hearts of all people. Since prescriptions always have prescribers – they don’t arise from nothing – the Moral Law Prescriber (God) must exist.
901
902Kyle: May I rephrase? These moral principles must have a source beyond individual opinions because it is a standard common to all sane people. Since common standards don’t just happen by coincidence, we all have a common source (society) for moral standards. What is your next point?
903
904G&T (p 193): This Moral Law is God’s standard of rightness, and it helps us adjudicate between the different moral opinions people may have. Without God’s standard, we’re left with just that – human opinions. The Moral Law is the final standard by which everything is measured.
905
906Kyle: Let’s see if I can rephrase that.... These moral principles are society’s standard of rightness, and they help us adjudicate between the different moral opinions individuals may have. Without society’s standard, we’re left with just that – individual opinions. The moral principles of society are the final standard by which everything is measured.
907
908G&T: Where can I find these “moral principles of society”? Where are they written?
909
910Kyle: Some of them are written, and some aren’t. Mankind has codified many moral principles as the laws of the land. Other principles are recorded in books of etiquette. Also, there are many writings on ethics and related philosophies. Some principles aren’t recorded at all, but we grow into them as part of our society’s culture.
911
912G&T: That makes sense.
913
914Kyle: So, what’s your next point?
915
916G&T (p 193): Although it is widely believed that all morality is relative, core moral values are absolute, and they transcend cultures. Confusion over this is often based on a misunderstanding or misapplication of moral absolutes, not on a real rejection of them. That is, moral values are absolute, even if our understanding of them or of the circumstances in which they should be applied are not absolute.
917
918Kyle: That’s good. I’ll accept it as written.
919
920G&T (p 193): Atheists have no real basis for objective right and wrong. This does not mean that atheists are not moral or don’t understand right from wrong. On the contrary, atheists can and do understand right from wrong because the Moral Law is written on their hearts just as on every other heart. But while they may believe in an objective right and wrong, they have no way to justify such a belief (unless they admit a Moral Law Giver, at which point they cease being atheists.)
921
922Kyle: Excuse me a minute while I try to keep my righteous indignation under control.
923
924G&T: Why should my last statement make you angry?
925
926Kyle: It’s so vitriolic, and so untrue. I am proud to be an atheist. I’m a consistent atheist, and contrary to what you assert in the last paragraph of page 193, I believe that murder, rape, genocide, torture and other heinous acts are wrong. I can justify my morality as well as any theist can. Probably better.
927
928G&T: Well, I ...
929
930Kyle: Excuse me, I’m not done. What you said is not only hateful and untrue, your rejection of ethical philosophy causes real harm. I have known people who had based their personal code of conduct entirely on obedience to God. When they discovered that God was a fantasy, they had not developed any reasonable foundation for ethics to fall back on. They went off the deep end and committed any number of immoral acts before they began to get grounded in a true philosophy of ethics.
931
932G&T: So how would you rephrase my last point?
933
934Kyle: I wouldn’t rephrase it at all. If I replaced ‘atheist’ with ‘anti-humanist’ or any other word, it would come off as hateful as the original. Let me just say that all people – no matter what they believe – have access to ethical philosophy. I would encourage people who believe in God to supplement their obedience with an understanding of why certain actions are right or wrong. Try to understand morality from a human standpoint. It could not harm your faith, and it would give you all the more reason and strength to live morally upright lives.
935
936G&T: How can I argue with that?
937
938
939CHAPTER 8
940MIRACLES
941G&T (p 197): Let’s review the evidence for the existence of God. First, we have the Cosmological Argument:
942
9431. Everything that had a beginning had a cause.
9442. Space, time and matter had a beginning.
9453. Therefore, space, time a matter had a cause.
946Kyle: Assuming your science is correct, I accept the conclusion: the Big Bang had a cause. But you have failed to prove what the cause was. You assert that the cause was God, but you do not prove it. It is at least as likely that the cause was a natural phenomenon. So your Cosmological Argument misses the mark. It fails to prove the existence of God.
947G&T (p 198): Then there’s the Teleological Argument:
948
9491.	Complexity and precision require deliberate planning and manufacture by an intelligent being.
9502.	The universe is complex and precise.
9513.	Therefore, the universe was deliberately planned and manufactured by an intelligent being.
952Kyle: The first premise is false. Even you admit that God – who must be complex and precise, if he exists – was never deliberately planned and manufactured by anyone else. Complexity and precision never had a beginning. They are eternal. Nature has ways of reproducing complexity and precision, without the need for intelligent "tweaking." So your Teleological Argument fails to prove the existence of God.
953G&T (p 198): Then there’s the Moral Argument:
954
9551. Every principle has a source.
9562. Moral principles exist.
9573. Therefore, there is a source for moral principles.
958Kyle: I agree with the conclusion. There is a source for moral principles. But you have utterly failed to demonstrate that the source is God. It is more likely that the source for morality is human society. The Moral Argument fails to prove the existence of God.
959G&T (p 200): So you don’t believe me when I say that I have proved the existence of God beyond a reasonable doubt?
960
961Kyle: Why should I? A collection of false arguments does not make your assertion true. Not only do you fail to meet the “reasonable doubt” standard, but you have failed to provide one scintilla of evidence for the existence of God. If this is the best non-biblical evidence you have to offer...
962
963G&T (p 394): It is.
964
965Kyle: Then the complete lack of evidence proves beyond a reasonable doubt that God does not exist. The theistic religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam are not worthy of belief.
966
967G&T: Ouch.
968
969Kyle: Is there any reason to continue our conversation? You have established a pattern of deception. Why should I continue to entertain your fallacies?
970
971G&T (p 213): Wait a minute. I’ve tried, but apparently failed, to convince you with non-biblical evidence that God exists. There’s still the Bible. If the Bible is true, God exists. I will prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the Bible is true.
972
973Kyle: Miracles and all, huh?
974
975G&T: Yes. If a god exists, he can surely do miracles.
976
977Kyle: I accept that statement, with a healthy emphasis on the ‘if.’
978
979G&T: Good.
980
981Kyle: So, how can you prove the occurrence of a miracle?
982
983G&T (p 208): The only way to know for sure if a miracle has occurred is to investigate the evidence for each miracle claim.
984
985Kyle: On a case-by-case basis?
986
987G&T (p 210-215, 217): Yes. Of course, we must distinguish miracles from other types of unusual events such as providence, Satanic signs, psychosomatic cures, magic and anomalies.
988
989Kyle: Of course. Don’t forget hoaxes and fraudulent claims. Do you admit that there are more false miracles than real ones?
990
991G&T: For example?
992
993Kyle: Images of the Virgin Mary on underpass stains and grilled cheese sandwiches, Benny Hinn’s pseudo-healings, Bible Codes, etc.
994
995G&T: Of course, we have to use common sense and all our logical tools in evaluating miracle claims.
996
997Kyle: As a matter of fact, if there is an omniscient God who wants to impress us with a miracle, he should understand that most miracle claims are false. He should understand that we know this. He should understand that we are justified in being skeptical about any miracle claim.
998
999G&T (p 29): Good. You’re right to be skeptical.
1000
1001Kyle: And if this omniscient God can see into the future ...
1002
1003G&T (p 215): He can. That’s one way we know a miracle is from God. He predicts it.
1004
1005Kyle: Then he should provide evidence that’s convincing enough to overcome our natural skepticism.
1006
1007G&T (p 213): He does. That’s how I can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the Bible is true.
1008
1009Kyle: Bring on the evidence, but be forewarned that I will subject it to rigorous testing.
1010
1011G&T (p 321): Good. That’s what you should do. The evidence can withstand the most rigorous of testing. There is more than usual evidence for Biblical miracles.
1012
1013Kyle: We’ll see.
1014
1015
1016CHAPTER 9
1017EARLY DOCUMENTS MENTIONING JESUS
1018G&T (p 222-223): First, let’s establish that Jesus of Nazareth was a real person – not just a fictitious character. There are ten non-Christian writers who mentioned Jesus within 150 years of his death. My favorite is Flavius Josephus.
1019
1020Kyle: When did he live?
1021
1022G&T (p 221-222): He was born in about A.D. 37, and he died about A.D. 100. In about A.D. 93, he finished his famous Antiquities of the Jews. In book 18, chapter 3, section 3 of that work, Josephus, who was not a Christian, wrote these words:
1023
1024At this time [the time of Pilate] there was a wise man who was called Jesus. His conduct was good and (he) was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.
1025
1026Kyle: How certain are we that Josephus actually wrote those words?
1027
1028G&T (p 424): That’s a good question. Most scholars believe that Christians changed the quotation.
1029
1030Kyle: Changed? Isn’t it possible that Christians added that passage to Josephus?
1031
1032G&T: I don’t know about that.
1033
1034Kyle: G&T, I’d like you to meet Encyclopaedia Britannica, 2005 Deluxe. Let’s call him EB for short.
1035
1036G&T: That’s an encyclopedia on CD?
1037
1038Kyle: Yes. I like to refer to the Encyclopaedia Britannica because it has a good reputation, it’s cheap, and it’s readily available. I got these CD’s recently for less than forty dollars.
1039
1040G&T: Cool.
1041
1042Kyle: EB, what do you say about this passage in your article on “Jesus Christ: Sources for the life of Jesus”?
1043
1044EB: Josephus wrote a paragraph about Jesus (The Antiquities of the Jews 18.63ff.), as he did about Theudas, the Egyptian, and other charismatic leaders (History of the Jewish War 2.258–263; The Antiquities of the Jews 20.97–99, 167–172), but it has been heavily revised by Christian scribes, and Josephus's original remarks cannot be discerned.
1045Kyle: And what do you say about this passage in your article on “Josephus, Flavius: Josephus as historian”?
1046EB: The Antiquities contains two famous references to Jesus Christ: the one in Book XX calls him the “so-called Christ.” The implication in the passage in Book XVIII of Christ's divinity could not have come from Josephus and undoubtedly represents the tampering (if not invention) of a later Christian copyist.
1047G&T (p 222): That’s right: Josephus wrote another passage, which mentions “the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James.”
1048Kyle: Notice, though, that at least one of the passages referring to Jesus was either invented or tampered with, or so heavily revised that we cannot discern what Josephus really said.
1049
1050G&T: If that’s true, I can’t very well rely on it for evidence.
1051
1052Kyle: Do some research, and you will find that EB is right. Let’s assume, though, for the sake of the argument, that the scholars are wrong, and Josephus really did write those passages. What would the passages prove?
1053
1054G&T (p 223): They would affirm the general story of Christ and the early church.
1055
1056Kyle: Not really. They would only affirm that the gospel story was in circulation in A.D. 93. They would not indicate that the story was true. Jesus died several years before Josephus was born. Therefore, Josephus was not an eyewitness to the life of Jesus. Whatever information he may have had about Jesus was acquired by hearsay.
1057
1058G&T (p 221): But Josephus was the greatest Jewish historian of his time. Why would any historian include a story that he had not verified as true?
1059
1060Kyle: Josephus may have been “the greatest Jewish historian of his time,” but by today’s standards, he would not be called a good historian at all. Josephus routinely included stories in his writings that were obviously fictitious. He made no distinction between historical fiction and historical fact. The Encyclopaedia Britannica says that he exaggerated his facts and embellished the biblical narratives (“Josephus, Flavius: Josephus as historian” and “Josephus, Flavius: Assessment”). EB, what is your assessment of Josephus?
1061
1062EB: His writings are not always accepted as totally reliable (“Antiquities of the Jews”).
1063Kyle: So you see, it’s uncertain that Josephus wrote anything about Jesus. Even if he did, it would only prove that a legend about Jesus existed in about A.D. 93. We can’t rely on Josephus to report accurate history.
1064G&T: Okay, so you have discredited my star witness. What about the other nine?
1065
1066Kyle: Who were they?
1067
1068G&T (p 424): I mention the ten non-Christian writers in my footnote 5. They were (1) Josephus; (2) Tacitus, the Roman historian; (3) Pliny the Younger, a Roman politician; (4) Phlegon, a freed slave who wrote histories; (5) Thallus, a first-century historian; (6) Seutonius, a Roman historian; (7) Lucian, a Greek satirist; (8) Celsus, a Roman philosopher; (9) Mara bar-Serapion, a private citizen who wrote to his son; and (10) the Jewish Talmud.
1069
1070Kyle: How many of these ten ever saw Jesus?
1071
1072G&T: I don’t know. Why don’t you tell me?
1073
1074Kyle: Okay. You’ve already admitted that Josephus was born in about A.D. 37, several years after Jesus’ death. He had no personal knowledge of Jesus. What about Tacitus? EB, when was he born?
1075
1076EB: A.D. 56 (“Tacitus”).
1077
1078Kyle: So he had no firsthand knowledge of Jesus. EB, When was Pliny the Younger born?
1079
1080EB: A.D. 61 or 62 (“Pliny the Younger”).
1081
1082Kyle: How about Phlegon?
1083
1084EB: I don’t know anything about Phlegon.
1085
1086G&T: Phlegon was a freed slave of the emperor Hadrian.
1087
1088EB: Hadrian was born in A.D. 76 (“Hadrian”).
1089
1090Kyle: So it’s unlikely that Phlegon ever had personal knowledge of Jesus. How about Thallus?
1091
1092EB: I know nothing about Thallus.
1093
1094Kyle: A quick search on the Internet brings me to a web page by Richard Carrier (www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/thallus.html), who says:
1095
1096Of course, even if Thallus did mention the death of Jesus, we have already shown that he then probably wrote in the 2nd century, when we know this gospel story was already circulating nearly a century after the event. In such a case, Thallus is not an independent witness to the story, but is merely responding to Christian literature. This makes him of practically no use to apologists.
1097What about Suetonius?
1098EB: He was born A.D. 69 (“Suetonius”).
1099
1100Kyle: What about Lucian?
1101
1102EB: He was born A.D. 120 (“Lucian”).
1103
1104Kyle: What about Celsus?
1105
1106EB: He lived in the second century (“Hellenistic religion: Religion from Commodus to Theodosius I: AD 180–395”).
1107
1108Kyle: What about Mara Bar-Serapion?
1109
1110EB: I don’t know about him.
1111
1112Kyle: From a web page on “Early Christian Writings” (www.earlychristianwritings.com), we find that Mara Bar-Serapion wrote his letter sometime between A.D. 73 and 165. He didn’t claim to know Jesus or live during his time. What about the Talmud?
1113
1114G&T: My own footnote 7 states that the Talmud was likely composed in the early second century A.D.
1115
1116Kyle: That’s too late to contain firsthand knowledge of Jesus.
1117
1118G&T: So none of my ten non-Christian writers had firsthand knowledge of Jesus. Does that necessarily mean they were wrong?
1119
1120Kyle: Not necessarily. It only means that out of your ten non-Christian writers, none was an eyewitness. All of them received their information by hearsay. Some are known to have written legend and fantasy as if they were history. These circumstances are enough to raise a reasonable doubt that Jesus was an historic figure. Considering only these writings, the most that can be said with certainty is that Christians existed by the late first century, and those Christians propagated stories about a christ (or messiah) named Jesus.
1121
1122G&T (p 221): So there is no “Gospel According to Non-Christians.”
1123
1124Kyle: Right. Evidence for the life of Jesus comes only from Christian sources. Do you agree, EB? What do you say under “Jesus Christ: Sources for the life of Jesus”?
1125
1126EB: There are a few references to Jesus in 1st-century Roman and Jewish sources. Documents indicate that within a few years of Jesus' death, Romans were aware that someone named Chrestus (a slight misspelling of Christus) had been responsible for disturbances in the Jewish community in Rome (Suetonius, The Life of the Deified Claudius 25.4). Twenty years later, according to Tacitus, Christians in Rome were prominent enough to be persecuted by Nero, and it was known that they were devoted to Christus, whom Pilate had executed (Annals 15.44). This knowledge of Jesus, however, was dependent on familiarity with early Christianity and does not provide independent evidence about Jesus. Josephus wrote a paragraph about Jesus (The Antiquities of the Jews 18.63ff.), as he did about Theudas, the Egyptian, and other charismatic leaders (History of the Jewish War 2.258–263; The Antiquities of the Jews 20.97–99, 167–172), but it has been heavily revised by Christian scribes, and Josephus's original remarks cannot be discerned.
1127Kyle: Notice what EB said: “This knowledge of Jesus, however, was dependent on familiarity with early Christianity and does not provide independent evidence about Jesus. ”
1128G&T: Well, even if the New Testament stands alone, that doesn’t mean it’s wrong.
1129
1130Kyle: I agree. But don’t you find it curious? I mean, here’s a man who was supposed to have worked miracles, gathered crowds of thousands and risen from the dead. Yet we have absolutely no eyewitness testimony from non-Christian sources.
1131
1132G&T (p 233): Maybe that’s because everyone who heard about Jesus became a Christian.
1133
1134Kyle: You can’t seriously maintain that position. According to the New Testament, many people heard the gospel and witnessed miracles, but did not become Christians.
1135
1136G&T (p 254): Well, you’re right. The events of Christianity were “not done in a corner.” They were common knowledge and surely had not “escaped [the king’s] notice.” That’s what Paul said to Festus and Agrippa in Acts 26:24-28.
1137
1138Kyle: Yet Festus and Agrippa failed to convert. Nor did they leave any indication that they had met Paul or even heard of Jesus. Nor do we find any mention of Jesus in sources that probably would have mentioned Jesus, had they ever heard of him: Jewish sources, the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Alexandrian Jewish philosopher Philo, Justus of Tiberias, Pliny the Elder, Martial, Juvenal, Epictetus, Seneca, Plutarch and Quintilian. From such sources we get only silence. They didn’t know Jesus or his apostles.
1139
1140G&T: What do you have there?
1141
1142Kyle: A CD player. I’d like to play for you an excerpt from a lecture by Bart D. Ehrman, a professor at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. This is from Lecture Three of “From Jesus to Constantine: A History of Early Christianity,” available through The Teaching Company. You can look them up at www.teach12.com:
1143
1144Ehrman: If we look at the sources on Jesus written by Romans – non-Christian Romans who were neither Jewish nor Christian – if we look at the sources written in the first century, we have hundreds of sources. We have writings of poets, philosophers, religion scholars, natural scientists, personal letters that people sent through the ancient equivalent of the mail system, inscriptions that were put up on buildings. If we examine all of these pieces of literature from the ancient world, from the first century, from the time Jesus died in the year 30 until the year 100 – if we examine all of this record from the Roman Empire, we will find that Jesus is never, ever mentioned at all. His name never occurs in any Roman source that’s neither Jewish nor Christian, from the first century of the common era. What were his enemies saying about him? We have no idea, because they left us no writings.
1145Why didn’t they talk about Jesus? Well, that’s an interesting question. I would assume that they didn’t talk about Jesus because he didn’t make as big of an impact on his world as he has made on ours.
1146
1147The first time Jesus is ever mentioned by any pagan source is not until the year 112 of the common Era. The source is a letter written by a Roman Governor whose name was Pliny.
1148
1149Kyle: Let’s fast forward a little.
1150Ehrman: This was in the year 112, some 80 years after Jesus’s death, and he mentioned that there was a group of people called Christians who were gathering together illegally: “they’re called Christians because they worship somebody named Christ, whom they worship as a god.” That’s all he says about Jesus. It is the first reference to Jesus, though, in a Roman source, in the year 112. After that, Jesus’s name starts appearing in Roman sources, but if you want to look at Roman sources for what you can find out about what Jesus actually said and did, they simply don’t exist.
1151Kyle: Professor Ehrman goes on to describe Josephus. We’ll skip over this part, because we’ve already discussed him.
1152Ehrman: Within the first century A.D., [Josephus] is the only reference to Jesus outside of Christian sources. As a result, we are more or less left with accounts of Jesus written by his own followers if we want to know what Jesus said and did.
1153From within the first century A.D., these references by Jesus’s own followers come almost entirely to us from the pages of the New Testament. We have scarcely any Christian writings outside the New Testament that survive from the first century A.D., but even within the New Testament, stories of Jesus’s life are scarcely found anywhere except for in the four gospels: Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
1154
1155Kyle: So you see, the four gospels stand alone as your only source of knowledge about Jesus of Nazareth. Even though hundreds of sources survive from the first century, nobody except the Christians ever mention the existence of Jesus. What is that quote from Reader’s Digest you like so much?
1156G&T (p 61): “That’s what happens when a beautiful theory meets a brutal gang of facts.”
1157
1158Kyle: Yeah. That pretty much summarizes what just happened here. A brutal gang of facts has made mincemeat of your beautiful theory. When we look at the first century A.D., we don’t find any non-Christian verification that Jesus even existed. All you are left with is faith in the New Testament.
1159
1160G&T: Well, I guess we’ll just have to examine the New Testament, then.
1161
1162Kyle: Isn’t the New Testament story a legend? What makes you think it’s historically accurate?
1163
1164G&T (p 223-224): To see if the New Testament is a record of actual history, we need to answer two questions: First, do we have accurate copies of the original documents that were written down in the first century?
1165
1166Kyle: I think there is more room for doubt than you lead us to believe in your ninth chapter. However, let’s not get into that. I will accept, for the sake of the argument, that the Greek New Testament we have today is the same as it was when it was written in the first century.
1167
1168G&T (p 224): Good. So we can skip pages 224-230. The second question is: Do those documents speak the truth?
1169
1170Kyle: Ay, there’s the rub.
1171
1172G&T: What?
1173
1174Kyle: Never mind. It’s from Shakespeare. Hamlet’s soliloquy. What I mean is, that’s the main obstacle. That’s the question we need to answer. Is the New Testament an accurate history, or is it legend? What is its genre?
1175
1176G&T (p 224, 230): In other words, is it truth, or a lie?
1177
1178Kyle: I think your dichotomy is a little harsh. When Aesop wrote his fables, was he lying? After all, foxes and birds don’t talk.
1179
1180G&T: No, he wasn’t lying, really. He was expressing true principles through fictitious fables.
1181
1182Kyle: Was Jesus lying when he told parables that were not historically accurate?
1183
1184G&T: No, they were parables.
1185
1186Kyle: That’s what I mean by genre. When somebody writes fiction, legend, fables or parables, isn’t it harsh to call the author a liar?
1187
1188G&T: Yes. I get your point.
1189
1190Kyle: So what we need to find out is: What is the New Testament’s genre? Was it written as history or something else?
1191
1192G&T (p 231-232): Good question. Do you believe history can be known?
1193
1194Kyle: Yes. Of course.
1195
1196G&T (p 233): Do you believe that the inclusion of miracles in the New Testament necessarily negates it as history?
1197
1198Kyle: Not necessarily. But the miracles indicate that the genre is most likely something other than factual history. They raise a strong red flag, warning us that unless there is very good evidence to the contrary, the gospel stories are legendary.
1199
1200G&T (p 28): I appreciate your caution. That’s healthy. If I can’t back up my claims with good evidence and good reasoning, you shouldn’t believe them.
1201
1202Kyle: Fair enough.
1203
1204G&T (p 233-235): Do you believe the New Testament writers were too biased to present objective facts?
1205
1206Kyle: Not necessarily. A person who has a strong point of view can still be objective. The question is, were the New Testament writers even trying to present objective facts. It depends on the genre.
1207
1208G&T (p 235): Well, let’s examine the evidence. First, how early are the New Testament writings?
1209
1210Kyle: Let me save you some time. Although your dating is arguable, I’ll accept, for the sake of the argument, that the New Testament books were written as early as you claim.
1211
1212G&T (p 241): So you agree that the earliest of our gospels was written within 25 or 30 years of Jesus’ death?
1213
1214Kyle: Sure, I’ll accept that, for the sake of the argument.
1215
1216G&T (p 243): And do you accept that the earliest of Paul’s writings was written about A.D. 48?
1217
1218Kyle: Sure, why not?
1219
1220G&T (p 244): So you accept that there is only a 15- to 40-year gap between the life of Christ and the writings about him?
1221
1222Kyle: Yes, for the sake of the argument.
1223
1224G&T: Good. We’re ready to go on to the next chapter.
1225
1226
1227CHAPTER 10
1228EYEWITNESS TESTIMONY?
1229G&T (p 251-253): Now let’s see if we can determine that the New Testament documents contain eyewitness testimony. First, I would like to point out that Peter, Paul and John all claim to be eyewitnesses. Luke and the writer of Hebrews claim to be informed by eyewitnesses.
1230
1231Kyle: But are these claims true? After all, why should we trust that those writers told us the truth? It’s one thing to claim that you’re an eyewitness or have eyewitness testimony, and it’s another thing to prove it.
1232
1233G&T (p 255): You’re taking the words right out of my pages.
1234
1235Kyle: Okay, but you ask a valid question: What evidence do we have that the New Testament writers were really eyewitnesses or had access to eyewitness testimony?
1236
1237G&T (p 255-256): Much more than you might think. Let’s look at Luke. He wrote one of the gospels and the book of Acts. Luke may not have been an eyewitness to the Resurrection itself, but he certainly was an eyewitness to many New Testament events. Luke includes more eyewitness details than the other New Testament writers. He displays an incredible array of knowledge of local places, names, environmental conditions, customs and circumstances that befit only an eyewitness contemporary of the time and events. Would you like me to list 84 details in Acts that have been confirmed by historical and archaeological research?
1238
1239Kyle: No thank you. I’ll take your word for it. For the sake of the argument, I accept that the book of Acts accurately describes the historical background of its narrative.
1240
1241G&T (p 260): Good. Now, Luke reports a total of 35 miracles in the book of Acts. All of these miracles are included in the same historical narrative that has been confirmed as authentic on 84 points. In light of the fact that Luke has proven accurate with so many trivial details, it is nothing but pure anti-supernatural bias to say he’s not telling the truth about the miracles he records.
1242
1243Kyle: What’s wrong with an anti-supernatural bias?
1244
1245G&T (p 260): If God exists, we should expect him to perform miracles.
1246
1247Kyle: But you have failed to prove that God exists. Therefore, I think a reasonable person should be skeptical about miracle claims. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Besides, I think I can get you to admit that your argument is weak. G&T, I’d like you to meet The Pearl of Great Price.
1248
1249Pearl: Hi. I’m a miscellaneous selection from the revelations, translations and narrations of Joseph Smith, the founder of the Mormon Church.
1250
1251G&T: Oh my stars, Kyle, you can’t be serious.
1252
1253Kyle: Just listen a minute. We’ll make a brief point, and then I’ll put Pearl back on the shelf. Go ahead, Pearl.
1254
1255Pearl: I contain a section called “Joseph Smith – History,” in which Joseph Smith tells his own story. In this short section you’ll find 38 details – the same kind of details you find in Acts. These details can be verified as accurate:
1256
12571. People have militated against the Mormon church (verse 1).
12582. The Mormon church was organized in 1830 (verse 2).
12593. Joseph Smith was born on December 23, 1805 (verse 3).
12604. There is a place called Sharon, Windsor County, Vermont (verse 3).
12615. Joseph Smith was a son of Joseph Smith, Sr., and Lucy Mack Smith (verses 3-4).
12626. Palmyra, was in Ontario County, New York, and later in Wayne County (verse 3).
12637. There was a place called Manchester in the same county as Palmyra (verse 3).
12648. The eleven members of the Smith family are correctly named (verse 4).
12659. An unusual excitement on the subject of religion swept through Manchester (verse 5).
126610. There were Methodists, Presbyterians and Baptists in that district (verse 5).
126711. Four members of the Smith family joined the Presbyterian faith in about 1820 (verse 7).
126812. The three predominate sects argued against one another (verse 9).
126913. Smith quoted the King James Version of the Bible, which was popular at the time (verse 11).
127014. The different sects understood the same passages of scripture differently (verse 12).
127115. There were woods near Manchester (verse 14).
127216. Smith used the term “preacher” in connection with the Methodists (verse 21).
127317. Smith frankly confesses to foolish errors and foibles of human nature (verse 28).
127418. The crowing of a cock was common in Smith’s setting (verse 47).
127519. There is a hill of considerable size convenient to Manchester (verse 51).
127620. The Smith family’s worldly circumstances were very limited (verse 55).
127721. Smith’s oldest brother, Alvin, died in 1823 (verse 56).
127822. There was a Josiah Stoal in Chenango County, New York (verse 56).
127923. Spaniards had opened a silver mine in Harmony, Susquehanna Co, Pennsylvania (verse 56).
128024. Joseph Smith had dug for silver in Harmony, Susquehanna Co, Pennsylvania (verse 56).
128125. Joseph Smith was known as a money-digger (verse 56).
128226. Isaac Hale lived in Harmony, Pennsylvania (verse 57).
128327. Joseph Smith married Emma Hale on January 18, 1827 (verse 57).
128428. Squire Tarbill lived in South Bainbridge, Chenango County, New York (verse 58).
128529. Joseph Smith was unpopular (verse 61).
128630. Smith moved to Susquehanna County, Pennsylvania (verse 61).
128731. Martin Harris lived in Palmyra Township, Wayne County New York (verse 61).
128832. Professor Charles Anthon lived in New York City (verse 64).
128933. Dr. Mitchell lived in New York City (verse 65).
129034. Oliver Cowdery went to Joseph Smith’s house on April 5, 1829 (verse 66).
129135. Oliver Cowdery had been teaching school in Manchester (verse 66).
129236. There were woods in Susquehanna County, Pennsylvania (verse 68).
129337. There was a publication called Messenger and Advocate in 1834 (footnote).
129438. The phrase “professors of religion” was common in Smith’s day (verse 75).
1295G&T: For the sake of the argument, I’ll take your word for it that those particular details are historically correct.
1296Pearl: Good. Now, this history of Joseph Smith also contains visitations from God the Father, Jesus Christ, an angel named Moroni, and John the Baptist. Joseph Smith also claimed to translate golden plates by the miraculous working of peep stones called the Urim and Thummim. These visitations and miracles are included in the same writing that is confirmed as authentic on 38 points. In light of the fact that Joseph Smith has proven accurate with so many trivial details, it is nothing but pure anti-Mormon bias to say he’s not telling the truth about the visitations and miracles.
1297
1298G&T (p 254): Do you think that in such a short time you can persuade me to be a Mormon?
1299
1300Kyle: No, but I do expect to persuade you that your argument is invalid.
1301
1302G&T: Yes, I get the comparison. My argument is pretty weak, isn’t it. Or maybe it means that Mormonism is as true as Christianity.
1303
1304Kyle: Oh, my. How about a non-religious example: Allow me to introduce Victor Hugo’s Notre-Dame de Paris. In his novel, Hugo describes the buildings and streets of Paris in painstaking detail. King Louis XI also figures in the novel, and he was a real person. So does that make you believe Quasimodo was a real person who did everything Hugo wrote about him?
1305
1306G&T: Quasi- who?
1307
1308Kyle: Quasimodo. You know. The Hunchback of Notre Dame.
1309
1310G&T: Sounds like a football player to me.
1311
1312Kyle: Very funny.
1313
1314G&T: Seriously, I get your point.
1315
1316Kyle: My point is that the setting of a narrative can be accurate while the story line is fictitious. Your 84 points fail to establish that Luke’s stories were true.
1317
1318G&T (p 261): But what about Luke’s gospel? Luke writes, “I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning” (Luke 1:3). Isn’t that statement worthy of belief?
1319
1320Kyle: Not necessarily. Look at the Author’s Preface to The Life & Adventures of Robinson Crusoe by Daniel Defoe:
1321
1322The Editor believes the thing to be a just history of fact; neither is there any appearance of fiction in it....
1323G&T: But Robinson Crusoe is fictitious, isn’t it?
1324Kyle: Exactly. And the Preface to The Three Musketeers by Alexandre Dumas says, “... the heroes of this history which we are about to have the honor of relating to our readers have nothing mythological about them.” The Preface goes on to describe the search for evidence and the discovery of a manuscript described as historical. The manuscript turns out to be the novel itself. Do you believe The Three Musketeers is historically true?
1325
1326G&T: No.
1327
1328Kyle: You're right. My copy has an introduction in which J. Walker McSpadden writes:
1329
1330But the reader will become interested in each period as he reaches it through the medium of the particular story; and having finished the story, he will be sorely tempted to study history and find out for himself how much is fact and how much fiction. He will be astonished to find how closely Dumas hedges upon real characters and real occurrences; how ingeniously the imaginary occurrences are made to explain the genuine ones; and how vitally the novelist has interested him in names which before greeted his eye meaninglessly upon musty records.
1331G&T: Are you comparing the New Testament to The Three Musketeers? Is the New Testament a mixture of fact and fiction?
1332Kyle: I think it is. At least I have demonstrated that a veneer of historicity is possible, and a veneer does not make a narrative historical. Writers often use real settings – real places, real people and historical events – as a backdrop to their fictitious stories.
1333
1334G&T (p 262): I thought my logic was inescapable.
1335
1336Kyle: Well, let’s check your logic by reducing your argument to a syllogism:
1337
13381.	Luke told the truth about his journeys.
13392.	A writer who tells the truth about his journeys always tells the truth about miracles.
13403.	Therefore, Luke told the truth about miracles.
1341G&T ( 255-262): Yes, that’s what this part of my tenth chapter boils down to.
1342Kyle: I accept the first premise. Luke gave an accurate travelogue. The background to his narrative is historical.
1343
1344G&T: But you don’t agree with the second premise.
1345
1346Kyle: Right, I don’t. Joseph Smith is an example of a person who told the truth about his journeys through Vermont, New York, and Pennsylvania. Yet his visions, revelations and other miracles are unbelievable.
1347
1348G&T (p 262): So, since I failed to establish the historicity of Luke’s story, I can’t establish the historicity of Mark and Matthew by pointing out that they tell the same story?
1349
1350Kyle: Right. That would be an invalid argument.
1351
1352G&T (p 263-268): And it wouldn’t do any good to argue the historicity of John with similar evidence?
1353
1354Kyle: Right.
1355
1356G&T (p 269-271): Doesn’t it impress you at all that there are at least thirty characters in the New Testament who have been confirmed as historical by archaeology or non-Christian sources?
1357
1358Kyle: No more than it impresses me that The Three Musketeers has so many historical characters in it, including King Louis XIII, Anne of Austria, Cardinal Richelieu and Monsieur de Treville.
1359
1360G&T (p 271): But the New Testament can’t be just a historical novel.
1361
1362Kyle: Why not?
1363
1364G&T (p 271): For one thing, independent non-Christian writers collectively reveal a storyline similar to the New Testament.
1365
1366Kyle: We debunked that assertion in the ninth chapter. The fact is that we have absolutely no non-Christian commentary about Jesus until 80 years after his death. We have absolutely no eyewitness testimony corroborating the New Testament.
1367
1368G&T (p 271): Well, why would the New Testament writers endure persecution, torture and death for a fictitious story?
1369
1370Kyle: Because the gospel stories were more than your average fiction. They were the legends that united congregations of Christians in fellowship. But this is the topic for the next chapter, isn’t it?
1371
1372G&T (p 271): Yes. Let’s discuss this point later.
1373
1374Kyle: Okay.
1375
1376G&T (p 271): My third objection is that novelists usually don’t use the names of real people for the main characters in their stories.
1377
1378Kyle: Neither does the New Testament. Name one main character in the New Testament who is cited by non-Christian writers or confirmed through archaeology.
1379
1380G&T (p 270): The most prominent character is Jesus.
1381
1382Kyle: But he isn't corroborated by non-Christian sources. How about the apostles?
1383
1384G&T (p 270): None.
1385
1386Kyle: Not even Peter or John?
1387
1388G&T (p 270): No.
1389
1390Kyle: What about Paul? Or Mary Magdalene?
1391
1392G&T (p 270): No to both. But there was John the Baptist, Herod and Pilate.
1393
1394Kyle: Are they main characters?
1395
1396G&T: Maybe.
1397
1398Kyle: It seems to me that your list is made up of peripheral characters. But it would be pointless to argue about what makes a main character. Let’s get back to your objection.
1399
1400G&T (p 271-272): Yes. If the New Testament writers had used real people in fictitious stories, those real people would deny the story, destroy the credibility of the authors, and maybe even take punitive action against them.
1401
1402Kyle: Now, wait a minute. By the time the New Testament books were written, most of the real people mentioned in them were dead.
1403
1404G&T: Can you prove that all of them were dead?
1405
1406Kyle: No, but even if some were alive, what would motivate them to correct a few insignificant cults? There were many, many cults in the Roman empire. Only a few of them were Christian.
1407
1408G&T: How do you know that?
1409
1410Kyle: EB, what do you say?
1411
1412EB: [In] the early empire, the mystery cults, ranging from the Eleusinian mysteries of Greece to those of the Anatolian Cybele and the Persian Mithra,together with philosophically based religions such as Neoplatonism and Stoicism, had the greatest vitality. The patterns of religious belief were complex and of different levels, with various types of religion existing side by side. Into this situation Christianity was injected.... (“religion, study of: History of the study of religion”)
1413Kyle: Besides, did the New Testament writers mention the real people in a defamatory way?
1414G&T: Not particularly.
1415
1416Kyle: Then why would they waste their precious time trying to correct rumors about them in a few little cults? Your objection doesn’t carry much weight, in my opinion. Do you have any other objections to the theory that the New Testament is an historical novel?
1417
1418G&T (p 272): One more. The New Testament was written by nine authors spread all over the ancient world, over a 20- to 50-year period. The historical novel theory would require an implausible grand conspiracy among these writers.
1419
1420Kyle: I agree.
1421
1422G&T: You do? Chalk one up for Jesus!
1423
1424Kyle: Not so fast, G&T. You seem to be engaging in a false dichotomy. You seem to be saying that the New Testament was either an historical novel or a true history.
1425
1426G&T: Is there another alternative?
1427
1428Kyle: Well, you do consider another by implication – that the New Testament is entirely fictitious – but you do an admirable job of debunking that suggestion.
1429
1430G&T: Thank you.
1431
1432Kyle: A novel is usually concocted from the imagination of one author. The gospels are different.
1433
1434G&T: How?
1435
1436Kyle: When Jesus died, his disciples did not simply give up their new religion. They continued to meet, and the teachings of Jesus developed into teachings about Jesus. The Christian doctrines developed according to the necessity of the times. Their stories were embellished and exaggerated as they were passed around from mouth to mouth. The apostle Paul preached and wrote his epistles before the gospels were written. By the time the gospels were written, the stories had spread and developed in different directions. Among the early Christians were such divergent cults as Ebionites, Marcionites, Gnostics and others. The various scribes who set the oral traditions to writing did not just make everything up like a novel. Each set down the tradition as it had developed in his particular congregation. That’s why you have some similarity among the gospels and some differences.
1437
1438G&T: That’s an interesting theory, but isn’t it just your opinion?
1439
1440Kyle: Not at all. Let me play some more from the CD of Bart D. Ehrman’s lecture. Here he’s speaking about the four gospels:
1441
1442Ehrman: These books, in fact, did not appear to have been written by eyewitnesses. They are written about Jesus and his followers. They are anonymous. They’re written in Greek. Jesus and his followers spoke Aramaic. They’re written decades after the facts that they narrate.
1443Kyle: Let’s skip ahead a little:
1444Ehrman: These are books that are written not by eyewitnesses, and in a different language from Jesus. They’re written decades later, and are based largely on oral traditions of Jesus. Where did these authors get their stories from if they were not there to see these things happen? Well, after Jesus died, his followers told stories about him, in order to convert people, in order to educate those who were converted. In order to provide edification for people, stories of Jesus were told day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year, decade after decade, until these Gospel writers, who apparently were living in some other place – they’re writing in Greek, not Aramaic (the language of Palestine) – hear these stories and write them down.
1445Kyle: You may not accept this explanation, but at least it gives a viable alternative to the two theories you mention.
1446G&T: So where does that leave us? Were the New Testament writers eyewitnesses or not?
1447
1448Kyle: I don’t deny that the authors of Luke and John knew something about the culture of first century Jerusalem. It seems likely that the author of Luke or one of his sources really did travel to the places described in Acts. So I guess you could say they were eyewitnesses to the historical setting of the New Testament stories. However, I have shown you examples of writers who used historical settings as the background for their non-historical stories. It seems reasonable to me that the New Testament is the same. You have failed to prove that the New Testament writers were eyewitnesses to the stories they tell.
1449
1450G&T (p 271): What else could the New Testament writers have done to prove that they were eyewitnesses who were not making up a story?
1451
1452Kyle: Surely they realized that reasonable people would be skeptical about healing, multiplying food, turning water into wine, walking on water and resurrecting from the dead. They could have taken measures to ensure that their stories were accurate. Instead we have conflicting versions of the same stories. They could have collected legal affidavits from witnesses. Instead, we have hearsay assertions that other people had seen these things happen. They could have proven their case to the courts, the media of their time, or the non-Christian world in general. Instead, the first century world is silent, as if Jesus never existed at all. From all appearances, the New Testament writers were not the least bit worried about convincing future skeptics that their stories were true. The reasonable conclusion is that the stories were legendary. There were no eyewitnesses, because the miraculous stories about Jesus never happened in reality.
1453
1454G&T (p 274): Well, maybe my next chapter will convince you.
1455
1456Kyle: Give it your best shot.
1457
1458
1459CHAPTER 11
1460TEN REASONS
1461G&T (p 275): I can give you ten reasons why I believe the New Testament writers told the truth.
1462
1463Kyle: I’m listening.
1464
1465
14661. Humility
1467G&T (p 275-277): First, the New Testament writers included embarrassing details about themselves. People don’t normally do that when they make up a story.
1468
1469Kyle: I have several responses to that. For one thing, you have fallen back into a false dichotomy. You assert that the writers either concocted the story out of thin air, or told the truth. A reasonable alternative is that they accurately recorded the legends that had developed about Jesus.
1470
1471G&T: Oh, yeah.
1472
1473Kyle: For another thing, in a religion that places high value on humility and self-abnegation, a person can show his dedication to the cult by abnegating himself. In doing so, he exalts himself in the minds of other believers.
1474
1475G&T: I hadn’t thought of it that way.
1476
1477Kyle: Also, do you know why bridesmaids wear ugly dresses?
1478
1479G&T: Are you changing the subject?
1480
1481Kyle: Not really. Bridesmaids wear ugly dresses in order to make the bride look more beautiful by contrast. The Jews had the “bridesmaid principle” figured out from the beginning of their history. Scour the Old Testament for a perfect human being. You won’t find one. In order to accentuate the perfection of God, the Bible describes its mortal heroes as less than virtuous. Look at King David. He was one of the most revered kings, but he committed adultery with Bathsheba and murdered her husband, Uriah. Solomon was a serial polygamist. Moses himself committed murder, doubted God, lost his temper, and was not permitted to enter Canaan. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob committed various foibles and dishonest acts.
1482
1483G&T (p 362): I agree that the heroes of the Old Testament were Olympic-quality sinners. But that indicates the Old Testament was telling the truth.
1484
1485Kyle: Maybe – maybe not – but that’s beside the point. The point is that the New Testament writers had plenty of precedent for depicting their heroes as less than perfect.
1486
1487G&T: Interesting.
1488
1489Kyle: By the time the gospels were written, there were divisions and disagreements among the Christian sects. Not all of them revered the Twelve Apostles. It’s understandable that some Christian sects had no interest in flattering the apostles, but only wanted to glorify Jesus. It’s possible that the gospels arose out of such sects.
1490
1491G&T: Well, that brings us to the next reason.
1492
1493Kyle: What is it?
1494
1495
14962. Humanity
1497G&T (p 277-279): The New Testament writers included embarrassing details and difficult sayings of Jesus.
1498
1499Kyle: What are some of the embarrassing details?
1500
1501G&T (p 277-278): Jesus is considered “out of his mind” by his own family (Mark 3:21,31); is not believed by his own brothers (John 7:5); is thought to be a deceiver (John 7:12); is deserted by many of his followers (John 6:66); makes “Jews who had believed in him” want to stone him (John 8:30-31, 59); is called a drunkard (Matt. 11:19); is called demon-possessed (Mark 3:22; John 7:20, 8:48); is called a madman (John 10:20); allows a prostitute to wipe his feet with her hair (Luke 7:36-39); and is crucified, which the Jews take to be a curse of God (Deut. 21:23; Gal. 3:13).
1502
1503Kyle: Interesting.
1504
1505G&T (p 278): Why would the gospel writers invent such incrimination if it weren’t true?
1506
1507Kyle: The gospel writers did their best to portray Jesus as a man of sorrows. Being misunderstood and falsely accused is one of the most humiliating things a person can experience. Therefore, the writers may have had a strong motive to include these details, even if they weren’t historically accurate.
1508
1509G&T (p 278): Okay, but there are also difficult sayings that the writers would not have invented if they wanted to portray Jesus as God.
1510
1511Kyle: For example?
1512
1513G&T (p 278): Jesus said, “The Father is greater than I” (John 14:28). Jesus seems to predict incorrectly that he’s coming back to earth within a generation (Matt. 24:34). Then he denies that he knows when his second coming will occur (Matt. 24:36). Jesus curses a fig tree for not having figs when it wasn’t even the season for figs (Matt. 21:18ff). He seems unable to do many miracles in his hometown (Mark 6:5).
1514
1515Kyle: Which team are you playing on?
1516
1517G&T (p 278-279): Yeah, it sounds like I’m poking fun at Jesus, but I’m not. There are reasonable explanations. The point is that the writers would be unlikely to invent such things if they wanted to prove Jesus was God. The best explanation is that the New Testament writers were not playing fast and loose with the facts but were extremely accurate in recording exactly what Jesus said and did.
1518
1519Kyle: I disagree. That’s not the best explanation. We know the gospel writers made no attempt to be “extremely accurate in recording exactly what Jesus said and did.” The discrepancies among the gospels prove that point. The “difficult sayings” that you list are consistent with the theory that the gospel stories developed as they were repeated by word of mouth. Only after decades of embellishment were the stories recorded as the written gospels. The writers didn’t necessarily “play fast and loose with the facts.” They may have been extremely accurate in recording the legends, but the legends themselves were inaccurate.
1520
1521G&T: But why would legend develop in a way that makes Jesus so imperfect?
1522
1523Kyle: You need to realize that the early Christians were not unified in their beliefs. Some believed that Jesus was fully God, and there was nothing human about him. Others believed that he was fully human, and not divine at all. Others thought he was partially human and partially divine. Such conflicting views caused schisms in the early church. If you wanted to prove that Jesus had human characteristics, wouldn’t you emphasize stories that make him less than a god?
1524
1525G&T: I suppose.
1526
1527Kyle: So your second reason fails to convince me. You assume too much when you say the writers intended to portray Jesus as beyond accusation and fully divine.
1528
1529
15303. Impossible Commands
1531G&T (p 279-280): The New Testament writers left in demanding sayings of Jesus. For example, Jesus said, “Anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has committed adultery” (Matt. 5:28); “Give to the one who asks you” (Matt. 5:39-42); “Love your enemies” (Matt. 5:44-45); “Be perfect” (Matt. 5:48); and “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth” (Matt. 6:19-21). All of these commands are difficult or impossible for human beings to keep and seem to go against the natural best interests of the men who wrote them down.
1532
1533Kyle: Thanks. You make an excellent point for the atheists. I agree that the Sermon on the Mount is not fit for human consumption.
1534
1535G&T (p 280): That’s not my point. I’m only saying that the writers are not likely to invent commandments that are so difficult for them to keep. Therefore, they must be from God.
1536
1537Kyle: I disagree. People are always putting impossible demands on themselves. Some religious people take vows of celibacy and poverty. That’s against human nature. Do you believe such vows are from God? Some people flagellate themselves – punishing their own flesh until it bleeds, to make them feel holier. Did God inspire such behavior? Some churches forbid smoking, drinking alcohol and even caffeine. Some churches demand vegetarianism. Did God command such things? Other people feel holy about crashing airplanes into buildings. Is that from God? According to your logic, yes!
1538
1539G&T: I guess I’d better rethink this one.
1540
1541Kyle: The Sermon on the Mount, from which you take all your examples, is a small step from the Pharisaical traditions. The Pharisees are an ancient example of men imposing impossible laws on themselves. Do you realize that Paul never once quotes the Sermon on the Mount?
1542
1543G&T: Oh, really?
1544
1545Kyle: Why didn’t he? Was it considered so unimportant that the other apostles failed to tell him about it? Or maybe it developed in the legends of the Ebionites, which Paul opposed. Either way, it is curiously suspect. You might want to consider the possibility that Jesus never uttered the Sermon on the Mount.
1546
1547
15484. Limited Quotes
1549G&T (p 280-281): Well, that brings us to number four. The New Testament writers carefully distinguished Jesus’ words from their own.
1550
1551Kyle: How does this indicate that they told the truth?
1552
1553G&T (p 281): It shows that the writers were very clear about which words they attributed to Jesus, and they resisted the temptation to attribute more words to him than they did.
1554
1555Kyle: That sounds really goofy to me. No matter how many sayings they attributed to Jesus, you could say the same thing. Some of the sayings might have been spoken by Jesus. Others might not. The Sermon on the Mount, for example, is questionable. If Jesus spoke those words, why didn’t Paul ever hear about it? Don’t you have any better reasons?
1556
1557
15585. Unlikely Resurrection Stories
1559G&T (p 281-283): Sure. My fifth reason is that the New Testament writers included events related to the resurrection that they would not have invented – the burial of Jesus, the first witnesses, the conversion of priests, and the explanation of the Jews. If these were lies, they could easily have been exposed.
1560
1561Kyle: You’re still indulging in a false dichotomy. You assume that the gospel writers either invented stories that they wanted to pass off as real in order to deceive everyone, or they recorded actual history. What about this: The gospel writers recorded the legends that had evolved around a preacher named Jesus. Like other legends, they were neither airtight nor historically accurate. They were based on a real person, but the legend overtook the reality.
1562
1563G&T: The legend theory does seem to solve the problem of unlikely inventions. But there are still problems related to the resurrection that I would like to address.
1564
1565Kyle: Isn’t that what your next chapter is about?
1566
1567G&T: Yes. Let’s discuss the resurrection in the next chapter.
1568
1569Kyle: Okay. What’s your next reason for believing the New Testament writers told the truth?
1570
1571
15726. Real People
1573G&T (p 283-284): The New Testament writers include more than thirty historically confirmed people in their writings.
1574
1575Kyle: We went through this in the last chapter. When a real person is in the background of a New Testament story, the historical setting might be accurate. That doesn’t prove the story.
1576
1577G&T: The real people don’t always remain in the background. John the Baptist and Pilate, for example, play important roles in the gospels.
1578
1579Kyle: The development of legend adequately explains that. But let’s suppose Jesus really did rub shoulders with such people. So what? John the Baptist might have baptized Jesus, but that doesn’t prove the heavens opened or a dove came down or a voice was heard. Pilate might have condemned Jesus, but that doesn’t mean Jesus resurrected from the dead. Real elements in a story do not prove the entire story. The world is full of half-truths.
1580
1581
15827. Contradictions
1583G&T (p 284-286): The New Testament writers included divergent details. In light of the numerous divergent details in the New Testament, it’s clear that the New Testament writers didn’t get together to smooth out their testimonies. This confirms that the New Testament writers wrote independently from one another.
1584
1585Kyle: I agree that the writers did not completely agree with one another before they wrote. It seems apparent, though, that the authors of Matthew and Luke had access to the gospel of Mark. Or it’s possible that all three authors had access to a common source that has been lost. The number of similarities among the three synoptic gospels makes it difficult to argue that they were completely independent. On the other hand, the contradictions among them make it obvious that they can’t all be true.
1586
1587G&T (p 285): Now you’re contradicting yourself. You claim that the Synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark and Luke) are too uniform to be independent sources. On the other hand, you claim that they are too divergent to be telling the truth. So which are they? Are they too uniform or too divergent?
1588
1589Kyle: That’s not a contradiction. They’re too uniform for one thing – to be independent sources. They’re too divergent for a different thing – to be telling the truth. It’s like saying I’m too old to get a child’s discount, but I’m too young to get a senior citizen’s discount. Which am I? Too young or too old? There’s no contradiction between the two statements.
1590
1591G&T: Okay, you caught me in another false argument.
1592
1593Kyle: Touché.
1594
1595G&T (p 285-286): But all the Gospels agree on the same major fact – Jesus rose from the dead. Only the details differ. And even if one could find some minor details between the Gospels that are flatly contradictory, that wouldn’t prove the Resurrection is fiction. It may present a problem for the doctrine that the Bible is without any minor error, but it wouldn’t mean the major event didn’t happen.
1596
1597Kyle: I agree. But the contradictions do prove that the gospel writers were careless about their stories. They shot from the hip when they wrote, not bothering to verify the facts. They weren’t historians, but preachers. They were not above exaggerating and embellishing their stories. Therefore, it’s evident that they were not eyewitnesses of historical events, but recorders of legend.
1598
1599G&T: You do understand the difference between complementary details and contradictions, don’t you?
1600
1601Kyle: Of course. Allow me to bring a flat contradiction to your attention. Where did the Eleven first see the resurrected Jesus?
1602
1603G&T: According to Matthew 28, Jesus commanded his disciples to go to Galilee and meet him there. That’s where they saw him for the first time.
1604
1605Kyle: What about Luke?
1606
1607G&T: According to Luke 24, Jesus met them for the first time in Jerusalem, and commanded them to stay in the city.
1608
1609Kyle: These contradictory accounts of a very important event – not just a minor detail – cannot be reconciled without doing violence to either Matthew or Luke. Both gospels cannot be completely true.
1610
1611G&T: Well, I don't know how to resolve that apparent discrepancy, but I’m sure someone can.
1612
1613Kyle: It’s one thing to theorize that an explanation exists. It’s another thing to produce an explanation. Reasonable people demand explanations, not just theories.
1614
1615G&T (p 313): You’re beginning to sound like me.
1616
1617Kyle: Yes, in a way. Here’s another contradiction that would be difficult or impossible to reconcile. How many times was Jesus crucified?
1618
1619G&T: Only once, of course.
1620
1621Kyle: What day and hour was it?
1622
1623G&T: According to Mark 14:12 and 15:25, it was the third hour, on Passover day.
1624
1625Kyle: What about John?
1626
1627G&T: According to John 18:28 and 19:14, it was after the sixth hour, on the day before Passover.
1628
1629Kyle: Can you reconcile this contradiction?
1630
1631G&T: I don’t know. I’d have to do some research.
1632
1633Kyle: In the meantime, let’s go on to your next reason.
1634
1635
16368. Verification
1637G&T (p 286-287): The New Testament writers challenge their readers to check out verifiable facts, even facts about miracles. In 2 Corinthians 12:12, Paul reminds the Corinthians that he had performed signs, wonders and miracles among them.
1638
1639Kyle: Going back to chapter 8, you said that miracles must be distinguished from psychosomatic cures, magic and anomalies. For a modern example of psychosomatic cures, look at Benny Hinn. He puts his audience into a hypnotic state, and they temporarily feel like they are healed of their infirmities. He has been exposed, however, as a fraud. Follow-up on his victims indicates that he has not performed one verifiable miracle. Yet he boasts about his “miracles,” and he continues to attract multitudes. Benny Hinn is only one of many false healers. Jesus and Paul did the same thing.
1640
1641G&T: Can you prove that Jesus and Paul were false healers?
1642
1643Kyle: No, it’s too late for that. The evidence is dead and buried. But at least it’s a viable alternative to their having a real gift of healing.
1644
1645G&T: Then it’s fifty-fifty.
1646
1647Kyle: Not really. We know false healers exist. We have no evidence that true healers exist. According to the Principle of Uniformity, it’s more likely that Jesus and Paul were false healers than true healers.
1648
1649G&T (p 117): Darn! Why did I ever bring up the Principle of Uniformity?
1650
1651Kyle: I’m glad you did. I believe you have two more reasons.
1652
1653
16549. Simple Style
1655G&T (p 287-290): The New Testament writers describe miracles like other historical events: with simple, unembellished accounts. The gospel writers don’t offer flamboyant descriptions or fire and brimstone commentary – just the facts.
1656
1657Kyle: Moderation in describing miracles is no proof that the stories are true. It’s only a matter of writing style, isn’t it?
1658
1659G&T: I suppose so, but a simple writing style is consistent with reporting historical fact.
1660
1661Kyle: It’s also consistent with reporting legendary “fact.” A legend reported in simple, straightforward language is still a legend.
1662
1663G&T: So number nine’s a wash, huh?
1664
1665Kyle: Yes, I think so. You have one more, right?
1666
1667
166810. Martyrdom
1669G&T (p 290-293): Yes. The New Testament writers abandoned their long-held beliefs and practices, adopted new ones, and did not deny their testimony under persecution or threat of death. Just think: Virtually overnight, over ten thousand devout Jews abandoned many of their treasured beliefs and practices to become Christians.
1670
1671Kyle: Did they really? Don’t you think those numbers are exaggerated?
1672
1673G&T: They come from the Bible!
1674
1675Kyle: If the Bible is legendary, as I believe it is, why should I take those figures at face value?
1676
1677G&T: I guess you can’t. You have to believe in the Bible first.
1678
1679Kyle: Also, do you really think Jerusalem was a monolith of devout Judaism at the beginning of the first century?
1680
1681G&T: Wasn’t it?
1682
1683Kyle: Of course not. Jerusalem was a hodgepodge of various sects – Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Herodians, Zealots and others. There were Romans, pagans, and people who were not religious at all. Even the Bible acknowledges the formation and disbanding of new cults. Gamaliel mentioned two of them in Acts 5:36-37. The Pharisaical traditions were impossibly burdensome. Why should it surprise us that a new cult would gather followers by relaxing those burdens? New sects have formed frequently throughout history. Why should first-century Jerusalem be any different?
1684
1685G&T (p 292-293): I hadn’t thought of it that way. But the early Christians became martyrs. Why would they die for a fictitious messiah?
1686
1687Kyle: For one thing, I suspect that you’re placing too much confidence on biblical legend and Catholic tradition. Did the early Christians really suffer persecution and martyrdom? The first real persecution of Christians was that of Nero. Let’s ask the Encyclopaedia Britannica about it:
1688
1689EB: In AD 64 a fire destroyed much of Rome; the emperor Nero killed a “vast multitude” of Christians as scapegoats. For the first time, Rome was conscious that Christians were distinct from Jews. But there probably was no formal senatorial enactment proscribing Christianity at this time. Nero's persecution was local and short. Soon thereafter, however, the profession of Christianity was defined as a capital crime.... (“Christianity: The history of Christianity: Relations between Christianity and the Roman government and the Hellenistic culture: Church–state relations”)
1690Kyle: Besides being “local and short,” Nero’s persecution did not erupt until A.D. 64 – thirty-four years after the death of Jesus. The earliest Christians, then, did not face immediate persecution or death.
1691G&T: The gospels weren’t written until after the time of Nero.
1692
1693Kyle: True. Let’s assume, for the sake of the argument, that the first-century Christians were routinely persecuted and killed. What would that prove?
1694
1695G&T (p 292): It would prove that they didn’t think Christianity was a lie. Why would anyone die for a known lie?
1696
1697Kyle: It seems to me that early Christianity was much more than a mere fabrication. The followers of Jesus had developed a bond of fellowship. They encouraged, strengthened, comforted and rejoiced with one another by developing doctrines, rituals and stories about Jesus. They were not very interested in the historical accuracy of their legends. Instead, they immersed themselves in what they perceived to be loftier truths. They were sincerely willing to give their lives out of loyalty and love for the family and friends who shared their religious point of view.
1698
1699G&T: Can you give me an example of people who died for a legend?
1700
1701Kyle: Sure. Look at some of my own ancestors. They were Mormons as early as 1831. They claimed to witness miracles and angelic visitations. Some early Mormons signed affidavits that they had seen and touched the Golden Plates from which Joseph Smith claimed to translate the Book of Mormon. Fantastic legends developed around Joseph Smith, even while he was still alive. The early Mormons knew, or at least they had reason to know, that the stories about Joseph Smith and the Golden Plates were not literally true. What was their response when they were beaten, persecuted and killed by mobs? How did they react to their expulsion from Missouri and Illinois? Did they abandon their families and friends because their legends weren't historically accurate? Maybe some did. But most of them remained loyal to their fellow Mormons, and were willing to suffer and die in their defense. Such loyalty in the face of persecution solidified their bond of fellowship, and Mormonism thrived.
1702
1703G&T: So enduring persecution is no indication that a person’s beliefs are true?
1704
1705Kyle: Right. Throughout history, people have suffered and died defending all kinds of absurd causes.
1706
1707
1708***
1709G&T: So none of my ten reasons are very strong, are they?
1710
1711Kyle: No, they’re not. There is no good reason to believe that the New Testament writers told the truth about the resurrection and other miracles.
1712
1713
1714CHAPTER 12
1715PUTTING IT ALL TOGETHER
1716G&T: You know, Kyle, you may have cast reasonable doubt on each of my arguments individually, but you have not disproved them. It is still possible that God exists, that the New Testament is true, and that Jesus Resurrected from the dead. Maybe all my arguments put together will make a stronger case than each taken separately.
1717
1718Kyle: You realize, don’t you, that because you are making the claims, the burden of proof is on you.
1719
1720G&T (p 313): Of course. Skeptics rightfully put the burden of proof for the Resurrection on Christians.
1721
1722Kyle: And you know that extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
1723
1724G&T (p 320): Are you demanding supernatural proof, like a miracle?
1725
1726Kyle: No, that would be asking too much.
1727
1728G&T (p 320): By extraordinary, do you mean that the claimed event must be repeatable?
1729
1730Kyle: No, historical events can be proved without repeating them.
1731
1732G&T (p 321): Do you require more than the usual number of documents to prove an extraordinary claim?
1733
1734Kyle: Not necessarily. When I demand extraordinary proof, I only mean that the standard of proof is higher than normal. A preponderance of evidence is not enough. Proof beyond a reasonable doubt is what I’m asking for.
1735
1736G&T (p 25, 301, 383, etc.): And proof beyond a reasonable doubt is what I’m trying to deliver.
1737
1738Kyle: That’s a high standard of proof, but I think it’s necessary where miracle claims are involved. I wouldn’t want to presume immediately that a miracle has occurred whenever something extraordinary happens.
1739
1740G&T (p 316): Neither would I, because most events actually do have a natural explanation. It makes perfect sense to seek a natural explanation first.
1741
1742Kyle: Right. Miracles, if they happen at all, must be extremely rare.
1743
1744G&T (p 201, 316): I agree.
1745
1746Kyle: You realize, too, that false claims of miracles are very common.
1747
1748G&T: Of course. It would be the height of gullibility to believe every miracle claim. It would also be inconsistent, because some claims contradict others.
1749
1750Kyle: So how can we distinguish a true miracle from a false claim?
1751
1752G&T (p 208): The only way to know for sure is to investigate the evidence for each miracle claim.
1753
1754Kyle: I agree. And if there’s any reasonable doubt, it should be resolved in favor of a non-miracle.
1755
1756G&T: Which is why I need to prove the biblical miracles beyond a reasonable doubt.
1757
1758Kyle: Right. So how have you done so far?
1759
1760G&T (p 317): Well, my first arguments were that the theistic nature of this universe makes miracles possible.
1761
1762Kyle: And I exposed the fallacies in each of your arguments. You failed to prove that God exists, or that miracles occur.
1763
1764G&T: But it’s still possible that God exists, and if he exists, it’s possible that he does miracles.
1765
1766Kyle: I have my doubts. And considering the quality of your arguments, do you think my doubts are unreasonable?
1767
1768G&T: I can’t say they are.
1769
1770Kyle: Then you have failed to prove the existence of God beyond a reasonable doubt.
1771
1772G&T (p 318-319): After that, I attempted to argue that reliable, trustworthy eyewitnesses recorded actual miracles that occurred about 2000 years ago.
1773
1774Kyle: Those arguments didn’t fare much better.
1775
1776G&T: But you didn’t disprove my theory that the New Testament is historically accurate.
1777
1778Kyle: Well, I did mention a couple of contradictions, but what if I could prove to you that the author of Matthew’s gospel was not even interested in historical accuracy? In fact, he deliberately falsified history in order to make a theological point.
1779
1780G&T: Go ahead and try.
1781
1782Kyle: Please read Matthew 1:17.
1783
1784G&T: “Thus there were fourteen generations in all from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to the Christ.”
1785
1786Kyle: Here, the author of Matthew makes the theological point that something important happens in every fourteen generations. I think his implication is that the Jews should have expected something important to happen in Jesus’ generation.
1787
1788G&T: Okay.
1789
1790Kyle: Now read the last part of Matthew 1:8 and the first part of Matthew 1:9.
1791
1792G&T: “Jehoram the father of Uzziah, Uzziah the father of Jotham.”
1793
1794Kyle: So Matthew gives this genealogy:
1795
1796Jehoram
1797Uzziah
1798Jotham
1799Now, if you look at the Old Testament (2 Chronicles 22:1,11; 24; 26:1,23), you see that there are three generations missing. The real genealogy looks like this:
1800Jehoram
1801Ahaziah
1802Joash
1803Amaziah
1804Uzziah
1805Jotham
1806G&T: That could have been a simple mistake. Uzziah and Ahaziah sound alike. Maybe Matthew accidentally skipped a few lines.
1807Kyle: Does it matter whether it was a mistake or intentional? The fact is that the gospel is not historically accurate. The author of Matthew obviously had access to the Hebrew Scriptures, and if he had cared enough to verify his data, he could have done so.
1808
1809G&T: Hmm.
1810
1811Kyle: Besides, that’s not the only problem with Matthew’s genealogy. According to Matthew 1:11-12, we have this genealogy:
1812
1813Josiah
1814Jeconiah
1815Shealtiel
1816G&T: Okay.
1817Kyle: According to 1 Chronicles 3:17, the true genealogy is:
1818
1819Josiah
1820Jehoiakim
1821Jehoiachin
1822Shealtiel
1823G&T: Jeconiah is a Hebrew variant of Jehoiachin.
1824Kyle: Yes, but that doesn’t account for the missing generation – Jehoiakim.
1825
1826G&T: Interesting!
1827
1828Kyle: Also, if you take the trouble to count the generations, you have fourteen in the first set, fourteen in the second set, but only thirteen generations in the last set. Obviously, the author of Matthew was not interested in historical accuracy.
1829
1830G&T: Well, that’s just the first chapter.
1831
1832Kyle: Okay, read Matthew 23:35.
1833
1834G&T: “And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.”
1835
1836Kyle: Why are Abel and Zechariah the only martyrs mentioned?
1837
1838G&T (p 360): Because Jesus wanted to cover the whole gamut. Abel was killed in the first book of the Jewish Old Testament (Genesis), and Zechariah was killed in the last (Chronicles).
1839
1840Kyle: Who was Zechariah, son of Berekiah?
1841
1842G&T: According to Zechariah 1:1, he was the prophet who wrote the Book of Zechariah.
1843
1844Kyle: He wasn’t the same person as the Zechariah in 2 Chronicles 24:20-21:
1845
1846Then the Spirit of God came upon Zechariah son of Jehoiada the priest.... But they plotted against him, and by order of the king they stoned him to death in the courtyard of the LORD’s temple.
1847G&T: Wow! So Matthew got the name wrong. He meant Zechariah son of Jehoiada, but he wrote Zechariah son of Berekiah.
1848Kyle: That’s not the only time the author of Matthew erred concerning Zechariah. In Matthew 27:9, Zechariah is quoted, but Jeremiah is given the credit.
1849
1850G&T (p 370): Here I thought the New Testament was inerrant.
1851
1852Kyle: Now you see what happens when a “beautiful theory meets a brutal gang of facts.”
1853
1854G&T (p 61): Right.
1855
1856Kyle: So do you admit that the author of Matthew was not interested enough in historical accuracy to check his facts?
1857
1858G&T: Oh, I don’t know.
1859
1860Kyle: Are you at least ready to admit that the New Testament is not 100% accurate?
1861
1862G&T: If I have any integrity at all, I am forced to acknowledge that fact.
1863
1864Kyle: So the Bible is neither 100% true, nor 100% false. It’s a mixture of historical accuracy and legend. The question is: Where do we draw the line between history and legend?
1865
1866G&T: History and archeology have proven that many of the places and rulers in the Bible are accurate.
1867
1868Kyle: Good. So we can put those things on the historical side of the line. On the other side of the line, it’s reasonable to presume – until proved otherwise – that the miracles, including the resurrection, are legendary.
1869
1870G&T: By the time I’m done, I hope to prove otherwise. Let’s take a look at the resurrection.
1871
1872Kyle: Okay.
1873
1874G&T (p 301-310): How do you explain the resurrection if it didn’t really happen? Was there, for example, a mass hallucination? Or did the witnesses go to the wrong tomb? Or did Jesus swoon rather than die? Or did the somebody steal the body? Or did a substitute take Jesus’ place on the cross?
1875
1876Kyle: No, I wouldn’t subscribe to any of those theories.
1877
1878G&T (p 299, 301): Good. Then how do you explain the fact that the disciples had experiences that they believed were actual appearances of the risen Jesus?
1879
1880Kyle: I don’t believe they did.
1881
1882G&T (p 299): Then you disagree with virtually all scholars who have written in the last thirty years about the resurrection.
1883
1884Kyle: You’re referring to the study by Gary Habermas, aren’t you?
1885
1886G&T (p 299): Yes.
1887
1888Kyle: I suspect his study had a pro-Christian bias. Even if my suspicion is wrong, are majorities always right?
1889
1890G&T (p 38, 353): No, beliefs, even widespread beliefs, cannot change a fact. In other words, truth is not determined by majority vote.
1891
1892Kyle: You see, I would draw the line between history and legend so that the stories about witnesses to the resurrection fall on the legend side of the line.
1893
1894G&T: So you don’t believe there were eyewitnesses to the resurrection?
1895
1896Kyle: Right, I don’t. I think the story developed – became exaggerated and embellished – as it passed from mouth to mouth in the decades between the death of Jesus and the writing of the first gospel.
1897
1898G&T: What about Matthew and John themselves? They were disciples of Jesus, and they wrote what they saw.
1899
1900Kyle: I disagree. The gospels were written anonymously. Only in the Second Century were the names of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John ascribed to them.
1901
1902G&T: Really?
1903
1904Kyle: Yes. Let’s listen to a segment of lecture 4 on “The New Testament” by Professor Bart D. Ehrman:
1905
1906Ehrman: All four of our Gospels in the New Testament, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, were written anonymously. As I indicated in the first lecture, these books later came to be ascribed to people named Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. In other words, to two of Jesus’ disciples, Matthew, the tax collector, and John, the beloved disciple, and to two friends of the apostles, Mark, who was thought to be secretary for the Apostle Peter, and Luke, who was thought to be a traveling companion of the Apostle Paul. Later they are attributed to two disciples and two friends of the apostles. These attributions, though, are not original to the Gospels themselves, and they did not arise until the 2nd century, some decades after the Gospels themselves were written. In fact, there are good reasons for doubting that these traditional ascriptions are accurate. Even though Jesus and his followers originally spoke Aramaic, the language that is closely related to Hebrew, the Gospels (as I have pointed out) were written in Greek, not the language of Jesus’ own followers. Moreover, Jesus’ own disciples, at least according to the New Testament accounts, were, by and large, lower-class uneducated peasants. According to the Book of Acts Chapter 4, both Peter and John, two of Jesus’ principal disciples, were known to be illiterate – the literal meaning of the word used in Acts 4:13. Peter and John were illiterate. The Gospel writers, on the other hand, are highly educated and literate. In addition, all of these Gospels are written in the third person. Never in these books does an author say, “then Jesus and I went up to Jerusalem, and then we did this, that, or the other thing.” The books were never described in the first person, always the third person. These books, then, do not appear to have been written by Jesus’ own disciples. They were later ascribed to apostles by later Christians, Christians who were interested in securing their authority as canonical scripture. These traditional ascriptions, though, are late and questionable.
1907G&T: So you have doubts that there were any eyewitnesses to the resurrection.
1908Kyle: Yes. Are my doubts unreasonable?
1909
1910G&T: I can’t say they are. I haven’t even thought about the development-of-legend theory.
1911
1912Kyle: So I have succeeded in raising a reasonable doubt about the resurrection. And where miracles are concerned, reasonable doubts should be resolved in favor of the non-miraculous explanation.
1913
1914G&T: You’re a tough nut to crack. But there’s one more line of evidence that will knock your socks off. Did you know that the resurrection was predicted hundreds of years before it happened?
1915
1916Kyle: Show me.
1917
1918G&T: Okay.
1919
1920Kyle: But before you do, I want to raise an objection. On page 321, you say, “Atheists ... believe in the Big Bang,” and, “Atheists believe in spontaneous generation and macroevolution.” That’s not true. Some atheists may believe in those things. Some Christians also believe in those things. I, an atheist, do not necessarily believe in those things. The only thing you can say about all atheists is that we have no belief in gods.
1921
1922G&T: Point well taken. Now let me show you something really amazing.
1923
1924
1925CHAPTER 13
1926DID JESUS FULFILL PROPHECY?
1927G&T (p 340, 432): Kyle, did you know there are 71 Old Testament messianic prophecies fulfilled by Christ? Some of the Bible’s predictions are hundreds of years in advance where future circumstances could not be foreseen without divine help, and all of the Bible’s predictions have proven to be 100 percent accurate.
1928
1929Kyle: Would you like to buy the Brooklyn Bridge?
1930
1931G&T: Be serious.
1932
1933Kyle: Okay, but your claim sounds outrageous. Show me your evidence.
1934
1935
1936Isaiah 53
1937G&T (p 329-330): I’d like you to open your Bible to Isaiah 53. When do you think this was written?
1938
1939Kyle: About 538 B.C.
1940
1941G&T: That would be more than five centuries before the birth of Jesus.
1942
1943Kyle: Yes.
1944
1945G&T (p 330, 332-333): Isaiah 53 is about a “Suffering Servant.” There are several “Servant Songs” in this part of Isaiah. I’m going to summarize some points from these songs, and I want you to ask yourself, “To whom is this referring?”
1946
19471.	He is elected by the Lord, anointed by the Spirit, and promised success in his endeavor (42:1,4).
19482.	Justice is a prime concern of his ministry (42:1,4).
19493.	His ministry has an international scope (42:1,6).
19504.	God predestined him to his calling (49:1).
19515.	He is a gifted teacher (49:2).
19526.	He experiences discouragement in his ministry (49:4).
19537.	His ministry extends to the Gentiles (49:6).
19548.	The Servant encounters strong opposition and resistance to his teaching, even of a physically violent nature (50:4-6).
19559.	He is determined to finish what God called him to do (50:7).
195610.	The Servant has humble origins with little outward prospects for success (53:1-2).
195711.	He experiences suffering and affliction (53:3).
195812.	The Servant accepts vicarious and substitutionary suffering on behalf of his people (53:4-6,12).
195913.	He is put to death after being condemned (53:7-9).
196014.	Incredibly, he comes back to life and is exalted above all rulers (53:10-12; 52:13-15).
196115.	The servant is also sinless (53:9).
1962So, Kyle, who do you think this Suffering Servant is?
1963Kyle: The people of Israel, of course.
1964
1965G&T (p 333): How can you say that? Just a casual reading of the passage should leave little doubt that the Suffering Servant is Jesus.
1966
1967Kyle: The key word is ‘casual.’ That’s your problem: You read the passages too casually. I realize that your interpretation is hoary with age. Christians have always seen Jesus in these passages, just like they see Jesus on pancakes, grilled cheese sandwiches, rust on refrigerator doors and water stains under bridges.
1968
1969G&T: I think at least one of those was the Virgin Mary.
1970
1971Kyle: Whatever. My point is that you have misinterpreted these passages. You have abandoned the original meaning, and inserted your Jesus where he doesn’t belong.
1972
1973G&T: How, then, do you interpret these passages?
1974
1975Kyle: What was that heading of yours on page 316?
1976
1977G&T (p 316): Context! Context! Context!
1978
1979Kyle: Right. Context is what we need to look at first. Chapters 40-54 of Isaiah were written by an anonymous author about a century and a half after Isaiah died. The Israelites’ world had changed dramatically since Isaiah’s death. Babylon laid siege to Jerusalem in 588 B.C. and destroyed the city in about 586 B.C. The Jews were taken to Babylon, where they suffered in captivity for about half a century. In 539 B.C., the emperor Cyrus took Babylon and decreed that the Jews were free to return to their homeland and rebuild Jerusalem.
1980
1981G&T: So you’re saying that chapters 40-54 are a supplement to the original Book of Isaiah?
1982
1983Kyle: Yes. There are three supplements to Isaiah. This is the second.
1984
1985G&T: And what is the main message of this supplement?
1986
1987Kyle: This is a message of comfort to the Israelites. The first verse of chapter 40 says plainly, “Comfort, comfort my people.” The author encourages Israel, saying that its sins have been paid for, that its return to Jerusalem would be accompanied by miracles, that it would become a powerful, righteous nation, that it would conquer its enemies, establish peace, and offer the salvation of Yahweh to the entire world.
1988
1989G&T: Of course, this is about the future, since the prophecies haven’t been fulfilled yet.
1990
1991Kyle: That doesn’t make sense. Here’s a group of people about to embark on an exciting journey back to their homeland, after 50 years of captivity, and you’re telling me that they’re interested in what will happen more than 2500 years later? Why would they give a hoot about that? How would that possibly comfort them?
1992
1993G&T: Surely they would be interested in a messiah.
1994
1995Kyle: Five centuries later? I doubt it. They were wrapped up in their own situation. These chapters do mention a messiah, though. Can you guess who it was?
1996
1997G&T: Jesus?
1998
1999Kyle: Guess again. It was Cyrus. In Isaiah 45:1, Yahweh calls Cyrus his “anointed.” The Hebrew word is mah-shee-agh, or messiah. Cyrus was the only messiah of interest to Israel in 538 B.C. He was the hero who saved Israel from the Babylonian captivity.
2000
2001G&T: Amazing. You’re not a Jew are you?
2002
2003Kyle: No, I’m an atheist. I don’t believe the authors of Isaiah were true prophets. I don’t believe in Yahweh. I study the Bible as literature, and I think it’s important to understand what the authors really meant, which is often very different from the re-interpretations of later cults with axes to grind.
2004
2005G&T: Okay.
2006
2007Kyle: You see, chapters 40-54 make perfect sense for the 6th Century B.C. There is absolutely no indication in these chapters that they were meant for any other period of time.
2008
2009G&T: How, then, do you explain the parallels between the Servant Songs and Jesus?
2010
2011Kyle: Some legends about Jesus were developed by First Century Jews who were familiar with the Old Testament. They took Old Testament passages out of context and changed their meaning to support the gospel stories. At the same time, they developed the gospel stories to conform to the Old Testament.
2012
2013G&T: Interesting theory.
2014
2015Kyle: Now, let’s look at your summary, plugging in the people of Israel as the servant:
2016
20171.	Israel is elected by the Lord, anointed by the Spirit, and promised success in its endeavor (42:1,4).
20182.	Justice is a prime concern of Israel’s ministry (42:1,4).
20193.	Israel’s ministry has an international scope (42:1,6).
20204.	God predestined Israel to his calling (49:1).
20215.	Israel is a gifted teacher (49:2).
20226.	Israel experiences discouragement in its ministry (49:4).
20237.	Israel’s ministry extends to the Gentiles (49:6).
20248.	Israel encounters strong opposition and resistance to its teaching, even of a physically violent nature (50:4-6).
20259.	Israel is determined to finish what God called it to do (50:7).
202610.	Israel has humble origins with little outward prospects for success (53:1-2).
202711.	Israel experiences suffering and affliction (53:3).
202812.	Israel accepts vicarious and substitutionary suffering on behalf of other people (53:4-6,12).
202913.	Israel is put to death after being condemned (53:7-9).
203014.	Incredibly, Israel comes back to life and is exalted above all rulers (53:10-12; 52:13-15).
203115.	Israel is also sinless (53:9).
2032G&T: But the servant can’t possibly be Israel.
2033Kyle: Why not?
2034
2035G&T (p 333): Look at number 15. Unlike Israel, the Servant is sinless. Isaiah 53:9 says that the servant “had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.”
2036
2037Kyle: That doesn’t say the servant was sinless. Aren’t there other sins besides violence and deceit?
2038
2039G&T: Yes, of course. You’re right.
2040
2041Kyle: And you’ve got to read the passage in context. Isaiah 53:9 says, “He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.” The death of Israel was its destruction by "rich" Babylon in 586 B.C. Israel’s burial was its captivity in "wicked" Babylon until 538 B.C. What had Israel done to deserve destruction? Israel had not attacked Babylon with violence; nor had Israel deceived Babylon.
2042
2043G&T: That’s arguable. The Bible says that “Zedekiah rebelled against the king of Babylon” (2 Kings 24:20). Isn’t breaking a treaty a form of deceit?
2044
2045Kyle: Maybe, but what counts here is the poet’s viewpoint. This is a message of comfort. Jerusalem had paid double for all her sins (Isaiah 40:2), and Israel’s transgressions were forgotten (Isaiah 43:25; 44:22). Besides, there are two sides to every dispute. What the Babylonians saw as rebellion, the Israelites may have seen as a demand for justice.
2046
2047G&T (p 333): My second objection is that unlike Israel, the Suffering Servant is a lamb who submits without any resistance whatsoever. Read Isaiah 53:7.
2048
2049Kyle: “He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.”
2050
2051G&T: How could that possibly describe Israel?
2052
2053Kyle: Again, you’ve got to look at this in context. Yes, Jerusalem resisted Babylon’s siege for a couple of years. But the famine in Jerusalem became so severe that the Israelite army fled Jerusalem and Zedekiah was captured. His sons were killed before his eyes, and then he was blinded and taken to Babylon (2 Kings 25:1-7). At some point, Israel realized that resistance was futile. It accepted its fate, cooperated with its captors, and submitted to service in Babylon. Jeremiah encouraged the exiles to make their homes peacefully in Babylon (Jeremiah 29:4-7). Israel went silently into captivity, like a lamb to the slaughter.
2054
2055G&T: Is there scriptural authority for any Israelites capitulating peacefully?
2056
2057Kyle: Sure. 2 Kings 25:11 says that some “fell away to the king of Babylon” (KJV), or had “gone over to the king of Babylon” (NIV). Not everyone resisted. And those who did resist were forced, like lambs, to shut up and submit.
2058
2059G&T: Okay, when you put it in context, Israel does seem to fit.
2060
2061Kyle: Do you have other concerns?
2062
2063G&T (p 333-334): Yes. Look at numbers 12 and 13. Unlike Israel, the Suffering Servant dies as a substitutionary atonement for the sins of others. But Israel has not died, nor is she paying for the sins of others. No one is redeemed on account of what the nation of Israel does.
2064
2065Kyle: The death of Israel was its destruction by Babylon in 586 B.C. Its resurrection was its return to Jerusalem in about 538 B.C. It may be true that Israel has not redeemed other nations, but that’s beside the point.
2066
2067G&T: Beside the point!? But doesn’t Isaiah say the Suffering Servant would redeem others by his suffering?
2068
2069Kyle: Yes, but don’t assume the author was telling the truth. The passages in question might be false prophecy, but that has no bearing on their original interpretation.
2070
2071G&T: Oh. You’re right.
2072
2073Kyle: The writer of Isaiah 40-54 predicted that Israel would become a righteous world power after emerging from its suffering in Babylon. He also predicted that Israel would rebuild the temple of Yahweh and offer its services to the nations. In that way, Israel would redeem the Gentiles. Isaiah 49:8 says that Israel would be “a covenant for the people.”
2074
2075G&T: Okay, so you have concocted a plausible theory that the suffering servant was the Israelite nation, and you have satisfactorily answered my objections to it. But you have no proof to back up your theory. It’s just your theory against mine.
2076
2077Kyle: Au contraire. Let’s go back to the Bible. Suppose the author of Isaiah 40-54 told us plainly who the servant was. Would you believe him?
2078
2079G&T: Of course I would.
2080
2081Kyle: Would you please read Isaiah 41:8-9.
2082
2083G&T: “But you, O Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, you descendants of Abraham my friend, I took you from the ends of the earth, from its farthest corners I called you. I said, ‘You are my servant’; I have chosen you and have not rejected you.” Wow.
2084
2085Kyle: And Isaiah 44:1-2.
2086
2087G&T: “But now listen, O Jacob, my servant, Israel, whom I have chosen. This is what the LORD says – he who made you, who formed you in the womb, and who will help you: Do not be afraid, O Jacob, my servant, Jeshurun, whom I have chosen.”
2088
2089Kyle: And Isaiah 44:21.
2090
2091G&T: “Remember these things, O Jacob, for you are my servant, O Israel. I have made you, you are my servant; O Israel, I will not forget you.”
2092
2093Kyle: And the first half of Isaiah 45:4.
2094
2095G&T: “For the sake of Jacob my servant, of Israel my chosen, I summon you by name....”
2096
2097Kyle: And Isaiah 48:20.
2098
2099G&T: “Leave Babylon, flee from the Babylonians! Announce this with shouts of joy and proclaim it. Send it out to the ends of the earth; say, ‘The LORD has redeemed his servant Jacob.’”
2100
2101Kyle: Finally, please read Isaiah 49:3.
2102
2103G&T: “He said to me, You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will display my splendor.’”
2104
2105Kyle: Well, what do you think now?
2106
2107G&T: You’ve got me. I must admit that the suffering servant was Sixth Century Israel. Otherwise, I would contradict the Bible.
2108
2109
2110Genesis 3:15
2111Kyle: What else have you got?
2112
2113G&T: Genesis 3:15 predicts that Jesus would be from the seed of a woman rather than from the seed of a man.
2114
2115Kyle: What exactly does Genesis 3:15 say?
2116
2117G&T: This is God speaking to Satan: “And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.”
2118
2119Kyle: I don’t see Jesus mentioned anywhere in that verse.
2120
2121G&T: Who else crushed the head of Satan?
2122
2123Kyle: I don’t see Satan mentioned either. This is about a serpent. On the surface, this passage is a myth that explains the enmity between humans and snakes. Snakes strike the heels of people. People crush the heads of snakes. The passage doesn’t say anything about a future messiah.
2124
2125G&T: Who else could you claim to be the seed of a woman?
2126
2127Kyle: Everyone.
2128
2129G&T: But Jesus is the only person born only of the seed of woman, without the seed of man.
2130
2131Kyle: You’re reading too much into the passage. If you’re going to be so literal, is Satan the seed of a serpent?
2132
2133G&T: Um....
2134
2135Kyle: You’ve made a really weak connection, here. You’ve read Jesus into the passage. Otherwise, he simply is not there. What’s your next messianic prophecy?
2136
2137
2138Genesis 12:3,7
2139G&T (p 334): Read Genesis 12:3 and 7, please. This is God speaking to Abraham.
2140
2141Kyle: “I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.... The LORD appeared to Abram and said, ‘To your offspring I will give this land.’”
2142
2143G&T (p 334): The word for ‘offspring’ is literally ‘seed’ (Hebrew zeh-rag). The word ‘seed’ is singular. The plural would be ‘seeds.’ The singular ‘seed’ refers to only one person – a messiah – who will ultimately bless all peoples on the earth and rule over the land.
2144
2145Kyle: You can’t be serious.
2146
2147G&T: Even Paul said that the word ‘seed’ was singular (Gal 3:16).
2148
2149Kyle: Whether it’s from you or Paul, the argument is a bad one. In English the word ‘seed’ is both singular and plural:
2150
2151The farmer planted a seed (singular).
2152The farmer planted seed (plural).
2153G&T: But we’re talking about Hebrew, not English.
2154Kyle: It’s the same in Hebrew. Zeh-rag is both singular and plural.
2155
2156G&T: Can you prove that?
2157
2158Kyle: Absolutely. Please read Genesis 13:16.
2159
2160G&T: “I will make your offspring like the dust of the earth, so that if anyone could count the dust, then your offspring could be counted.”
2161
2162Kyle: The Hebrew word for ‘offspring’ in Genesis 13:16 is the exact same form of zeh-rag as in Genesis 12:7. The word in 13:16 is obviously plural, and the most reasonable reading of 12:7 is also plural.
2163
2164G&T: Well, I’ll be.
2165
2166Kyle: The passage in question simply says that Abraham will be blessed, and his many descendants will inherit some land and improve the world. Nowhere in the passage does it mention a messiah, much less Jesus. What else do you have?
2167
2168
2169Genesis 49:10
2170G&T (p 335): Genesis 49:10. “The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs and the obedience of the nations is his.”
2171
2172Kyle: What does this have to do with Jesus?
2173
2174G&T (p 335): Who is the ultimate king, but the Messiah? This verse says that the Messiah will come from the tribe of Judah.
2175
2176Kyle: But Jesus never was a king. Nor does he control the obedience of the nations.
2177
2178G&T: Jesus is a spiritual king.
2179
2180Kyle: Well, the verse in Genesis has nothing to do with a spiritual king. It says a king from an unbroken line of Judah would rule this earthly world. The line of Judaic kings was broken in 586 B.C. when Jerusalem fell to Babylon, and it was never restored. Not only does this verse say nothing about Jesus, it was a false prediction.
2181
2182
2183Jeremiah 23:5-6
2184G&T (p 335): Next we have Jeremiah 23:5-6. “‘The days are coming,’ declares the LORD, ‘when I will raise up to David a righteous Branch, a King who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land. In his days Judah will be saved and Israel will live in safety. This is the name by which he will be called: the LORD Our Righteousness.’”
2185
2186Kyle: What does this have to do with Jesus?
2187
2188G&T (p 335): It says that Messiah will be a son of David, and he will be called God.
2189
2190Kyle: Did Jesus ever reign as king?
2191
2192G&T: Not literally, no.
2193
2194Kyle: Did Israel dwell securely in the days of Jesus?
2195
2196G&T: No.
2197
2198Kyle: Look at the previous verse: “... they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking....” Has that ever been fulfilled?
2199
2200G&T: No.
2201
2202Kyle: Then don’t you think it does violence to Jeremiah to take this passage out of context and apply it to Jesus?
2203
2204G&T: Well, maybe it has to do with the Second Coming of Christ.
2205
2206Kyle: In the future?
2207
2208G&T: Yes. He hasn’t returned yet.
2209
2210Kyle: Then how can you use this passage to prove that Jesus fulfilled prophecy in the past?
2211
2212G&T: I guess I can’t. Forget this one. Let’s go on to the next.
2213
2214Kyle: Good idea.
2215
2216
2217Isaiah 9:6-7
2218G&T (p 335): Let’s go on. Please read Isaiah 9:6-7.
2219
2220Kyle: Okay:
2221
2222For to us a child is born,
2223to us a son is given,
2224and the government will be on his shoulders.
2225And he will be called
2226Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
2227Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
2228Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end.
2229He will reign on David’s throne
2230and over his kingdom,
2231establishing and upholding it
2232with justice and righteousness
2233from that time on and forever.
2234G&T (p 335): This passage says that the Messiah will be born as a child, but he will also be God. He will rule from the throne of David.
2235Kyle: I think you’re putting too much stock in one interpretation of the word ‘god.’
2236
2237G&T: How many ways can you interpret the word ‘god’? There is only one God.
2238
2239Kyle: Let’s look at Psalm 82:6-7:
2240
2241“I said, ‘You are “gods”;
2242you are all sons of the Most High.’
2243But you will die like mere men;
2244you will fall like every other ruler.”
2245G&T: Well, this does appear to call certain men gods. But this is just a Psalm. Can we really base doctrine on poetry?
2246Kyle: You tell me. But first, let’s read John 10:34-35:
2247
2248Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I have said you are gods’? ... he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came – and the Scripture cannot be broken– ...”
2249G&T: How dare you use Jesus’ words against me! You don’t even believe in him.
2250Kyle: Well, do you admit that the word ‘god’ can refer to someone “to whom the word of God came”?
2251
2252G&T: I have to admit that or stop believing in the Bible. So yes, I admit it.
2253
2254Kyle: So when Isaiah wrote that a child would be called ‘mighty god,’ he didn’t necessarily mean that the child would be god himself.
2255
2256G&T: I get your point. But what about “Everlasting Father”?
2257
2258Kyle: Many people are called ‘father’ in the Bible. Being called “everlasting father” is consistent with the prediction that the Davidic throne would be established forever.
2259
2260G&T: I get your point for now. What if I want to study this further?
2261
2262Kyle: There’s an article by Frank Toth called “Isaiah 9:6: What is Meant by the Messiah being ‘God’ and ‘Father’?” (“Focus on the Kingdom,” March 2002, Volume 4 Number 6: http://www.focusonthekingdom.org/46.htm.) Here you’ll see that the word ‘god’ was used for ancient Hebrew heroes and judges. That should be a good starting point.
2263
2264G&T: But the passage says the child would reign forever. That could only mean Jesus.
2265
2266Kyle: Does the passage really say that? Read it again. All it says is that the government established by the child would last forever; the justice and righteousness he establishes will last forever.
2267
2268G&T: So if the child of Isaiah 9:6 isn’t Jesus, who is it?
2269
2270Kyle: Isaiah was a favorite in the court of Hezekiah. If you were a king who had just sired a prince, and you had a prophet on your staff, wouldn’t you want to know what the prophet has to say about the newborn prince?
2271
2272G&T: I suppose so.
2273
2274Kyle: Isaiah had been predicting that a utopian Jerusalem was about to emerge. The renewed Israel would have a righteous king from the line of David. Hezekiah’s successor was Manasseh, who was born about 698 BC. It may have been on the occasion of Manasseh’s birth, or the birth of a brother prince, that Isaiah composed Isaiah 9:6-7. This blessing on the prince was perfectly consistent with Isaiah’s overall message. It was for immediate fulfillment, not for seven centuries in the future.
2275
2276G&T: But Manasseh was a wicked king. He certainly didn’t fulfill this passage.
2277
2278Kyle: So what? I’m describing the original meaning of the passage. It doesn’t matter that the prediction failed, or that it was later re-interpreted to mean something else. If you’re going to use this passage as evidence that prophecy has been fulfilled, it would be illogical to base your argument on a later re-interpretation.
2279
2280G&T: You’re right.
2281
2282Kyle: So this passage has backfired on you, hasn’t it? Instead of proving a fulfillment of prophecy, it proves that the original prophecy was false.
2283
2284
2285Micah 5:2
2286G&T (p 335): Well, let’s go on to the next messianic prophecy. Please read Micah 5:2.
2287
2288Kyle: “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”
2289
2290G&T (p 335): This verse says that a Messiah, who is eternal, will be born in Bethlehem.
2291
2292Kyle: Whoa, now! The verse doesn’t say that at all.
2293
2294G&T: A ruler whose origins are from of old sounds like an eternal person to me.
2295
2296Kyle: I suspect you’re reading the passage incorrectly. It’s not the ruler himself who is supposed to be ancient. It’s the ruler’s ancestry going back to Bethlehem Ephrathah.
2297
2298G&T: But Bethlehem is the town where the ruler is supposed to be born – not his ancestor.
2299
2300Kyle: Does this verse mention a birth?
2301
2302G&T: Not explicitly, no.
2303
2304Kyle: You’re reading a “birth” into the verse. It doesn’t mention a birth at all. You’re also reading “town” into the verse. The verse doesn’t say anything about the town of Bethlehem.
2305
2306G&T: It says “Bethlehem Ephrathah.” That’s a town.
2307
2308Kyle: And it says that Bethlehem Ephrathah is small among the clans – not the towns – of Judah. Do you know what famous clan came out of ancient Bethlehem?
2309
2310G&T: Jesse, the father of King David, was from Bethlehem (1 Samuel 16:1).
2311
2312Kyle: Right. And the clan of Bethlehem Ephrathah is the line of Davidic kings. What Micah says in this passage is that a king from the lineage of David will rule over Israel after the Babylonian captivity (Micah 4:9-10). It doesn’t say where the king would be born. Jesus doesn’t fit the bill. He never ruled as a king, and he came several centuries too late to fulfill Micah’s prediction.
2313
2314
2315Malachi 3:1
2316G&T (p 335): How about Malachi 3:1. Please read it.
2317
2318Kyle: “See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the LORD Almighty.”
2319
2320G&T (p 335): This says that the Messiah, who will be preceded by a messenger, will suddenly come to the temple.
2321
2322Kyle: Let’s take a look at the context, from Malachi 2:17 to Malachi 3:5. The passage begins with the Israelites saying that Yahweh does not punish evil. Yahweh responds by saying that his messenger is coming, who would prepare the way before him. He will come in judgment against evildoers, and will refine the Levites so they can bring offerings in righteousness, acceptable to Yahweh. Did Jesus or his messenger purify the Levites?
2323
2324G&T: No.
2325
2326Kyle: Did Jesus or his messenger punish evildoers?
2327
2328G&T: No, not yet.
2329
2330Kyle: Was it Jesus’ mission to renew the system of animal sacrifices?
2331
2332G&T: No, he abolished animal sacrifices.
2333
2334Kyle: Then Jesus did not fulfill this passage.
2335
2336
2337Daniel 9:25-26
2338G&T (p 335): Here’s one that will really amaze you. Daniel predicted that the Messiah would die in 33 A.D. He would be “cut off” 483 years after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. He predicted the city and the temple would then be destroyed, which was fulfilled in 70 A.D.
2339
2340Kyle: That sounds pretty amazing. Let’s examine your claim to see if it stands up to analysis. First, let’s read the passage.
2341
2342G&T (p 335): Sure. The passage is Daniel 9:25-26.
2343
2344“Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.”
2345Kyle: Why don’t we keep reading to the end of Daniel 9.
2346G&T: Okay.
2347
2348“The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to the sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”
2349Kyle: Let’s crunch some numbers. How do you get A.D. 33 out of this passage?
2350G&T: We start with the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. That was the decree of Artaxerxes in 445 B.C.
2351
2352Kyle: Wait a minute. According to the Bible, Daniel lived in the time of Cyrus. From Daniel’s point of view, wouldn’t the decree of Cyrus in 539 B.C. be a more appropriate “commandment to restore and build Jerusalem”? The decree of Artaxerxes came a century after the time of Daniel.
2353
2354G&T: One would think so, but the decree of Cyrus was only for rebuilding the temple. The decree of Artaxerxes was for rebuilding the city of Jerusalem.
2355
2356Kyle: Do you believe the Book of Isaiah is true?
2357
2358G&T: Of course.
2359
2360Kyle: Listen to this excerpt from Isaiah 44:24-28:
2361
2362I am the LORD ... who says of Jerusalem, ‘It shall be inhabited,’ of the towns of Judah, ‘They shall be built,’ and of their ruins, ‘I will restore them,’ ... who says of Cyrus, ‘He is my shepherd and will accomplish all that I please; he will say of Jerusalem, “Let it be rebuilt,” and of the temple, “Let its foundations be laid.”’
2363G&T: So, according to Isaiah, Cyrus decreed that Jerusalem be rebuilt!
2364Kyle: Right. And the most logical starting place for Daniel is 539 B.C. It looks like you arrive at A.D. 33 by using the wrong starting date. But go on. I want to hear your explanation.
2365
2366G&T: We have to interpret a ‘seven’ as seven years. So 7 sevens come out to 49 years; 62 sevens come out to 434 years. Add them together, and 69 sevens come out to 483 years.
2367
2368Kyle: Wait a minute. Even if we use your starting date of 445 B.C., when we add 483 years, it comes out to A.D. 39. You’re six years off.
2369
2370G&T: That’s because we need to make an adjustment. Daniel was counting in years of 360 days. So 483 years times 360 days comes out to 173,880 days. Divide that by 365.242199 days in a year, and you get 476 years.
2371
2372Kyle: That comes out to A.D. 32, accounting for the fact that there’s no such year as 0 between 1 B.C. and A.D. 1. Most scholars think Jesus died in about A.D. 30.
2373
2374G&T: Don’t you think it’s close enough?
2375
2376Kyle: Look at the rigamarole you have to go through. First, you have to start out with the wrong decree. Then you have to apply an artificial fudge factor to get to an inexact ending date. That’s not very impressive.
2377
2378G&T: How else can you explain the passage?
2379
2380Kyle: First, let’s start at the right date – 539 B.C. That was when Cyrus gave the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. Then let’s go back in time 7 sevens, or 49 years. That takes us to 588 B.C., when Babylon laid siege on Jerusalem. For the 62 sevens, let’s apply a simple fudge factor by excluding the Sabbath day. That means it’s really 62 sixes, or 372 years. From 539 B.C., this takes us to 167 B.C.
2381
2382G&T: Your fudge factor makes no more sense than mine.
2383
2384Kyle: Maybe. According to 2 Chronicles 36:21, “The land enjoyed its sabbath rests; all the time of its desolation it rested....” So it makes sense to include the sabbaths in the 7 sevens. But in the 62 “weeks,” the sabbaths should be excluded because they were work weeks. The Israelites had 62 work weeks to prepare for the end.
2385
2386G&T: That sounds like hogwash to me.
2387
2388Kyle: That’s because it is hogwash. Now you know how I felt when you applied your fudge factor. If my fudge factor is illegitimate, so is yours.
2389
2390G&T: What good is the date 167 B.C., anyway?
2391
2392Kyle: In 168-167 BC, Antiochus Epiphanes enforced the hellenization of Jerusalem. He took the city by force, forbade the worship of Jehovah, set himself up as Zeus Olympius, and defiled the temple with a Greek altar – the abomination that causes desolation – on which he sacrificed swine. This event is recorded in the Apocrypha:
2393
2394On the fifteenth day of the month Casleu, in the hundred and forty-fifth year, king Antiochus set up the abominable idol of desolation upon the altar of God.... (1 Maccabees 1:57, Douay Version)
2395This abomination that causes desolation is also mentioned in Daniel 11:31:
2396His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation.
2397Is there any reasonable doubt that the abomination in Daniel 9:27 is the same as the abomination in 11:31?
2398G&T: No, that makes sense. Both verses must be referring to the same abomination.
2399
2400Kyle: The eleventh chapter of Daniel describes the reigns of kings from Cyrus the Great to Antiochus Epiphanes. Historically, it’s beyond reasonable doubt that the person who set up the “abomination that causes desolation” was Antiochus Epiphanes.
2401
2402G&T: So Daniel 9:25-27 really does speak of events in about 168-167 B.C.?
2403
2404Kyle: Yes. It has nothing to do with Jesus.
2405
2406G&T: But Jesus spoke of the abomination that causes desolation as if it were still in the future (Matthew 24:15-16).
2407
2408Kyle: So what? That’s a later re-interpretation of Daniel. It has nothing to do with the original meaning of the book. Matthew’s gospel is famous for taking Old Testament passages out of context, and changing their meaning.
2409
2410G&T: Well, if my interpretation is faulty, I think yours is, too. It just doesn’t sound right.
2411
2412Kyle: How about an alternative? Starting at the decree of Cyrus in 539 B.C., let’s go backward again to the siege on Jerusalem in 588 B.C. That’s the 7 sevens, or 49 years.
2413
2414G&T: Oh, that reminds me. That passage you quoted from Chronicles...
2415
2416Kyle: 2 Chronicles 36:21?
2417
2418G&T: Yes. It says, “The land enjoyed its sabbath rests; all the time of its desolation it rested, until the seventy years were completed in fulfillment of the word of the LORD spoken by Jeremiah.” Jerusalem was only desolate for 49 years. Why does the Bible say 70 years here?
2419
2420Kyle: Jeremiah predicted it would be 70 years. And if we use a biblical fudge factor, we can make it work. There were really 70 years between the ascendancy of Babylon in 609 B.C. to the decree of Cyrus in 539 B.C.
2421
2422G&T: Interesting.
2423
2424Kyle: And I’m glad you brought that up. Using the biblical fudge factor, we can start our 62 sevens at 609 B.C. instead of 588 B.C. That brings us to 175 B.C. (62 x 7 = 434; 609 - 434 = 175).
2425
2426G&T: And what happened in 175 B.C.?
2427
2428Kyle: That’s when Antiochus Epiphanes became king. And it’s interesting that Daniel 9:26 says the anointed one would be cut off and have nothing. Daniel 11:21 says Antiochus Epiphanes “has not been given the honor of royalty.” The real, anointed king was dethroned, or “cut off,” by Antiochus Epiphanes.
2429
2430G&T: Neither of us has mentioned the last seven.
2431
2432Kyle: That’s right. There are supposed to be 70 sevens (Daniel 9:24). We’ve only talked about 69 sevens. How do you interpret the last seven? Is it from A.D. 33 to 40?
2433
2434G&T: No, it’s indefinitely postponed. It will be fulfilled sometime in the future.
2435
2436Kyle: It seems odd to separate it like that. In my second interpretation, if the 62 sevens end at 175 B.C., the last seven brings it up to 168 B.C. That’s when Antiochus defiled the temple by setting up the abomination that causes desolation.
2437
2438G&T: Wow!
2439
2440Kyle: Anyway, that’s enough about Daniel. I’ve at least succeeded in bringing reasonable doubt against your interpretation. Considering your manipulations – starting at the wrong decree, reducing the years by an illogical fudge factor, ending at the wrong date, and separating the last seven indefinitely – your interpretation is hardly impressive.
2441
2442G&T: Your interpretations are not above suspicion either.
2443
2444Kyle: True, but I don’t claim that my interpretations are from God.
2445
2446
2447Zechariah 12:10
2448G&T (p 336-337): What about Zechariah 12:10? This is a prediction that God himself would be pierced, as happened when Jesus was crucified.
2449
2450Kyle: The piercing of Yahweh is not really a prediction. Zechariah mentions “the one they have pierced,” as if it had already happened when the passage was written. If the piercing were to occur in the future, Zechariah would have written, “the one they will pierce,” or “the one they will have pierced.” At any rate, it seems to me that the piercing of Yahweh is not physical, but metaphorical. Israel had “pierced” Yahweh – broken his heart – by disregarding him and his laws.
2451
2452
2453Psalm 22
2454G&T (p 338-339): What about Psalm 22? It has lots of parallels to the crucifixion of Jesus.
2455
2456Kyle: That’s only because the legend about the crucifixion was embellished with Psalm 22 in mind. Jesus may have been historically crucified, but the details were written into the legend to make it look like a fulfillment of Psalm 22.
2457
2458G&T: Does Psalm 22 make any sense without reference to the crucifixion?
2459
2460Kyle: Absolutely. It’s about David and his sufferings. Like a good poet, David didn’t write everything literally. He used metaphor and other literary devices in his writings. This is a beautiful, poignant poem about David. Nothing in the poem indicates that it was meant to be prophetic of anything in the future.
2461
2462
2463Conclusion
2464G&T (p 340): Okay, so you’ve raised reasonable doubts about Jesus fulfilling these prophecies. These are only a few out of 71.
2465
2466Kyle: Why don’t your pages include more than these few?
2467
2468G&T: I thought they were the most persuasive.
2469
2470Kyle: If your most persuasive evidence fails, do we really need to examine the less persuasive evidence?
2471
2472G&T: Not now. You’ve done enough damage for one sitting.
2473
2474Kyle: I assure you that the other “fulfilled prophecies” won’t withstand examination either.
2475
2476G&T: Assuming you’re right, and there is no fulfillment of prophecy, isn’t it still possible that Jesus was God?
2477
2478Kyle: Theoretically, yes. But where’s the evidence?
2479
2480G&T (p 340-344): Jesus claimed to be God.
2481
2482Kyle: Correction: The legends of the New Testament say Jesus claimed to be God.
2483
2484G&T (p 344-345): Jesus did things that only God can do.
2485
2486Kyle: Correction: The legends of the New Testament say Jesus did things that only God can do.
2487
2488G&T (p 346-347): If Jesus were not a legend, would he be a liar, a lunatic, or the Lord?
2489
2490Kyle: That’s a silly question. Of course, Jesus was a legend. There’s no need to speculate otherwise.
2491
2492G&T (p 348): But Jesus proved that he was God with three unparalleled proofs. First, he fulfilled numerous messianic prophecies written hundreds of years in advance.
2493
2494Kyle: That’s utter nonsense, and you know it. We have just gone over your favorite “fulfilled prophecies” and discovered that they fall apart under examination. If we had the time, we could go through all the alleged prophecies and do the same thing.
2495
2496G&T (p 348): Second, he lived a sinless life and performed miraculous deeds.
2497
2498Kyle: That’s just more nonsense. I acknowledge there are legends about Jesus and his miracles, but you have failed to prove that those legends are true.
2499
2500G&T (p 348): Third, he predicted and then accomplished his own resurrection from the dead.
2501
2502Kyle: Again, that’s a mere legend. You have failed to prove that the resurrection is anything but legend.
2503
2504G&T: You haven’t fallen for any of my arguments, have you?
2505
2506Kyle: No. You have no evidence. All you have is faith. I don't have enough faith to be a Christian.
2507
2508
2509CHAPTER 14
2510IS THE BIBLE TRUSTWORTHY?
2511G&T (p 370): I believe the Bible is the inerrant word of God.
2512
2513Kyle: Why?
2514
2515G&T (p 356): I start with the belief that Jesus is God. Since Jesus is God, whatever he teaches is true. If Jesus taught that the Bible is the Word of God, then the bible is our primary source of divine truth.
2516
2517Kyle: What do you base your belief on? We’ve already determined that the evidence is against Jesus being God.
2518
2519G&T: I guess I’m left with faith.
2520
2521Kyle: Right!
2522
2523G&T (p 362): In faith, I believe what Jesus taught – that the Old Testament is divinely authoritative, imperishable, infallible, inerrant, historically reliable, scientifically accurate, and has ultimate supremacy.
2524
2525Kyle: What if I could prove that the Old Testament is not all that Jesus claimed. Wouldn’t that be convincing evidence that Jesus was false?
2526
2527G&T: Yes. If Jesus taught false things about the Old Testament, he couldn’t be God.
2528
2529Kyle: Although it’s beyond the scope of our conversation, here are some things to consider when you get the time: Deuteronomy 18:20-22 is a test for false prophets. You can test Isaiah by comparing Isaiah 19 with history. You can test Jeremiah by comparing Jeremiah 25:12; 29:10; and chapters 50-51 with history. You can test Ezekiel by comparing Ezekiel 29:8-16; 30:10-12,20-26; and 32:11-15 with history. I think you’ll discover that all three were false prophets. In fact, you can scour the Old Testament for a demonstrably true prophet, and you won’t find one.
2530
2531G&T: I’ll send one of my buddies over here sometime, and you can argue with him about that.
2532
2533Kyle: I look forward to it.
2534
2535G&T: Anyway, I can make many of the same arguments with the Old Testament that I made with the New Testament.
2536
2537Kyle: All of which I have shown to be inadequate.
2538
2539G&T: How can you disbelieve such a perfect book?
2540
2541Kyle: Perfect!? The Bible is full of errors.
2542
2543G&T (p 370): No. The Bible does not have errors. It only has alleged errors and difficulties.
2544
2545Kyle: You say you can prove your claims beyond a reasonable doubt. Can you prove this claim?
2546
2547G&T (p 370): Yes. Let’s spell out logically why the Bible can’t have errors:
2548
25491.	God cannot err.
25502.	The Bible is the word of God.
25513.	Therefore, the Bible cannot err.
2552Kyle: I’m afraid you’re preaching to the choir.
2553G&T: What do you mean by that?
2554
2555Kyle: I mean people can’t believe your conclusion unless they’re already religious. Look at your first premise: “God cannot err.” For one thing, it assumes the existence of God, which you have failed to prove. For another thing, it’s pure dogma that God cannot err.
2556
2557G&T (p 371): But the Bible informs us several times that God cannot err.
2558
2559Kyle: That’s circular reasoning. You can’t assume your conclusion before you’ve proved it. Perhaps the Bible is in error when it says God can’t err.
2560
2561G&T (p 371): But we know God can’t err from general revelation as well.
2562
2563Kyle: Poppycock. You have proved no such thing. And your second premise is just as bad. You claim that the Bible is the word of God, but your syllogism won’t work unless you prove that the Bible came directly from God without being touched by fallible human hands.
2564
2565G&T (p 372): But the Bible didn’t come directly from God. The writers were human composers, who spoke from a human standpoint. They also reveal human thought patterns, including memory lapses, as well as human emotions.
2566
2567Kyle: And human errors.
2568
2569G&T (p 372): No. The Bible’s distinct human nature is without error.
2570
2571Kyle: You have no proof for that, do you?
2572
2573G&T: No.
2574
2575Kyle: Then it’s mere dogma. You can’t provide any good evidence that your premises are true. All you have is blind faith that the Bible is inerrant.
2576
2577G&T (p 373): There’s always a chance that my conclusions about inerrancy are wrong.
2578
2579Kyle: Wisely said.
2580
2581G&T (p 373): I hasten to add, I don’t think inerrancy will ever be falsified.
2582
2583Kyle: What would you accept as proof that the Bible is not inerrant?
2584
2585G&T (p 373): My conclusion on inerrancy would be falsified if you could trace a real error back to an original scroll.
2586
2587Kyle: There are many errors not attributable to copyists. I’ve already mentioned a few – the contradictory accounts of the first visit of the resurrected Jesus to the Eleven, the contradictory day and time of the crucifixion, the name of Zechariah son of Berekiah where the writer meant Zechariah son of Jehoiada, attributing a quote of Zechariah’s to Jeremiah, and a fraudulent genealogy in the beginning of Matthew.
2588
2589G&T: Oops. I forgot about those.
2590
2591Kyle: And there are plenty more where they came from.
2592
2593G&T (p 286, 373): But those are minor details. Falsifying inerrancy doesn’t disprove Christianity itself.
2594
2595Kyle: But it does prove Jesus was false when he claimed the Bible was inerrant. Therefore, he cannot be God. Besides, if the Bible is false about minor details, how can I believe it when it teaches important doctrine? If the Bible tells half-truths, and you have to resort to mind-bending contortions in order to harmonize differing details, what makes me think I can take its basic message at face value?
2596
2597G&T (p 358): That sounds like John 3:12. “If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?”
2598
2599Kyle: Exactly. The Bible has proved false, or at least deceptively tricky, in its earthly things. How will I believe its heavenly things?
2600
2601G&T: Good question.
2602
2603Kyle: What would it take to falsify Christianity?
2604
2605G&T (p 373): If someone could find the body of Jesus, Christianity would be proven false and I’d give it up.
2606
2607Kyle: Isn’t that an unreasonable demand? You set the bar for falsification too high. What did you say about skeptics demanding extraordinary proof?
2608
2609G&T (p 322): I said:
2610
2611It’s as if some skeptics are saying, “I won’t believe in miracles because I haven’t seen one. If the resurrected Jesus were to appear to me, then I would believe in him.”
2612Kyle: Aren’t you demanding the same thing? You won’t believe the resurrection is legend unless you see the dead body of Jesus.
2613G&T (p 373): Yes, I guess that’s pretty much what I said.
2614
2615Kyle: What was your response to the skeptics’ demand to see Jesus?
2616
2617G&T (p 322): I said:
2618
2619It certainly would be extraordinary, but is it really necessary? Does Jesus have to appear to every person in the world to make his claims credible? Why would he? We don’t have to witness every event firsthand in order to believe the event actually occurred. In fact, it would be physically impossible to do so.
2620Kyle: Touché.
2621G&T: Hmm....
2622
2623Kyle: Didn’t you say something about a theological presupposition against miracles?
2624
2625G&T (p 316): Yes.
2626
2627Kyle: If turn-around is fair play, I’m going to change a few of your words to make a point: You have a theological presupposition against legend. Of course, you don’t speak for all Christians. But certainly a majority of you deny reasonable analysis of the Bible because you share in this philosophical bias against legend. It is not that the evidence for biblical legend is weak (it’s very strong indeed). It’s that you’ve ruled out legend in advance. You arrive at the wrong conclusion because your bias makes it impossible for you to arrive at the right conclusion.
2628
2629G&T (p 374): Well, maybe I have set an impossibly high bar for falsification. But the critics also maintain an unfalsifiable position.
2630
2631Kyle: You can’t accuse me of that. I have carefully considered all the evidence you’ve presented. Had your evidence been true and convincing, I would have admitted you were right. I would have become a Christian in order to live according to the truth. But you have failed to provide any good evidence at all. Your arguments have been illogical, unreasonable and fallacious. Therefore, there is no good reason to believe your conclusions. In fact, the failure of your effort has confirmed my atheism.
2632
2633G&T (p 376): Could I be wrong about all this? It’s possible.
2634
2635Kyle: More than possible. More than probable. In light of the evidence, you’re wrong beyond a reasonable doubt.
2636
2637
2638CHAPTER 15
2639LEGEND AND REALITY
2640G&T: Even if you’re right – even if the Bible is legend – the gospel is so beautiful that I don’t think I could ever abandon it.
2641
2642Kyle: What’s so beautiful about it?
2643
2644G&T: It gives me answers that I can’t find anywhere else.
2645
2646Kyle: For example?
2647
2648G&T (p 383): Our origins, for example. Where did we come from? According to the Bible, we are created beings, wonderfully made in the image and likeness of God.
2649
2650Kyle: If this were true, it would be good to know, but I don’t see how it could help you if it were only a legend.
2651
2652G&T (p 383): It gives us a sense of identity. Who are we? Since we are made in the image and likeness of God, we are creatures of supreme worth. We are loved by God and endowed with certain God-given rights and responsibilities.
2653
2654Kyle: In other words, God is an imaginary friend who makes you feel good about yourself.
2655
2656G&T (p 175-176): More than that, God is the basis of all our civil and political rights. Thomas Jefferson wrote as much in the Declaration of Independence.
2657
2658Kyle: I don’t deny that Jefferson, Locke and Bastiat, for example, were great political thinkers. I regret, however, that they falsely used God as a basis for our rights. The philosophy of rights is founded not on God, but on reason. Can you find anything about “liberty and justice for all” in the Bible?
2659
2660G&T: Not at the moment, no.
2661
2662Kyle: That’s because it isn’t there. The Bible preaches authoritarianism. It encourages people to become slaves to a monarch. It gives commands, not liberty.
2663
2664G&T: Oh. I hadn’t thought about it that way.
2665
2666Kyle: Think about it.
2667
2668G&T (p 383-384): But the gospel gives us meaning. Why are we here? This temporal life is the choosing ground for eternity. In this life, we need to accept the ransom Jesus paid in order to free us from eternal punishment and welcome us into his eternal presence; we need to serve as ambassadors for Christ to help others make that same choice; and we need to learn from our own sufferings to comfort others who suffer, and realize that our sufferings enhance our own capacity to enjoy eternity.
2669
2670Kyle: Look at your focus. You’re so heavenly-minded that you’re no earthly good.
2671
2672G&T (p 384): Didn’t I say we can comfort others who suffer? That’s a good earthly activity.
2673
2674Kyle: But how do you comfort them? Do you tell them their suffering will entitle them to jewels in their eternal crowns? Do you tell them all will be made right after they die? Do you encourage them to prepare for eternity?
2675
2676G&T: Sometimes.
2677
2678Kyle: So even your comforting takes the focus off of this life and puts it on eternity.
2679
2680G&T: So what’s wrong with that?
2681
2682Kyle: I was riding in a car once with a devout Christian. He wadded up a piece of paper, and threw it out the window. Flabbergasted, I asked why he littered. He told me it didn’t matter, because God was going to destroy the earth soon, anyway, and make a new one.
2683
2684G&T: You can’t blame every Christian for one man’s littering.
2685
2686Kyle: That’s not the point. Littering isn’t the disease. It’s only a symptom. The disease is that Christians are so focused on a fictitious afterlife in heaven that they undervalue the reality of life on earth. Many Christians don’t care about civil rights, for example, because they regard the earth as a mere way station on their journey to heaven. They consider themselves strangers here, so they don’t even try to improve the world.
2687
2688G&T: Well, eternity is what gives meaning to life.
2689
2690Kyle: I disagree. Fantasies of eternity tend to sap the meaning out of life. Many Christians don’t value life. They regard it as meaningless because they’re always dreaming about pie in the sky after they die. It’s like a Star Trek fanatic who finds meaning in fictitious space travel. He might enjoy his fantasies, but if he becomes delusional about it and allows it to control his reality, he can become a burden on society.
2691
2692G&T: So Christians are a burden on society?
2693
2694Kyle: In a way, yes. Please notice, I’m not accusing all Christians of being delusional. But the New Testament preaches that people should be more concerned about the afterlife than life on earth. And when Christians take that seriously, they can become no earthly good.
2695
2696G&T (p 384): But the gospel teaches morality. How should we live? The whole duty of man is to fear God and keep his commandments.
2697
2698Kyle: There’s the slave mentality again. “Fear the master. Do whatever he commands.” Is that morality, or is it the self-preservation of trembling slave?
2699
2700G&T: Does it matter why people are moral, as long as they’re moral?
2701
2702Kyle: I think it matters a great deal. Suppose you had two sons. One is always very obedient to you, but lacks the confidence to think things out for himself. The other disobeys sometimes, but only because he thinks he has a better way of accomplishing your objective. Which son has the most potential? Which son would you trust to finish a project in your absence?
2703
2704G&T: The one who can think for himself.
2705
2706Kyle: I agree. The problem with obedience to an authoritarian god is that it discourages personal development. Why should a person develop his own moral sense when all he has to do is obey commands? I’ve seen people discover that their religion is false, and because they had not founded their morality on anything but God, they rejected morality along with their religion. There’s a very real danger of harm when people trust God so much that they fail to develop their own thinking.
2707
2708G&T: Maybe thinking is overrated. We don’t get to heaven by thinking about it, but by obeying God.
2709
2710Kyle: That’s scary.
2711
2712G&T (p 384): No, it’s beautiful. We understand our destiny. Where are we going? We deserve to go to hell, but Jesus saves us so we can go to heaven instead.
2713
2714Kyle: Can you prove that heaven and hell exist?
2715
2716G&T: No. You just have to trust the Bible. Have faith.
2717
2718Kyle: Do what?
2719
2720G&T: TRUST the Bible.
2721
2722Kyle: What if heaven and hell aren’t real? What if this life is all there is? Then Christians are putting their priorities in the wrong place. They’re wasting their lives chasing a pipe dream.
2723
2724G&T: Well, if there’s nothing after this life, then it’s all futile anyway. Five hundred years from now, nobody will even remember any of us. And if a pipe dream gives Christians hope and makes them happy, what’s wrong with that?
2725
2726(Knock, knock.)
2727Kyle: Oh! There’s someone at the door. Do you mind if I answer it?
2728G&T: Not at all.
2729
2730(Kyle opens door.)
2731Matthew: Hello! This is your lucky day! My name is Matthew Golden McClenney. I’ve come here all the way from Bahrain to give you 5000 acres of Tennessee timberland.
2732Kyle: That sounds very generous.
2733
2734Matthew: All I ask is that you accept it with sincerity and gratitude.
2735
2736Kyle: I sincerely thank you. Now give me the land.
2737
2738Matthew: Not so fast, my friend. In order to keep people from abusing my giveaway program, I must put their sincerity and gratitude to the test.
2739
2740Kyle: And how do you do that?
2741
2742Matthew: For the rest of your life, you must pay me ten percent of your income (gross, not net). I will accept other offerings if you want to prove yourself especially sincere and grateful. You must also do everything I tell you to do. I will control your sex life; what you eat, drink and smoke; what you wear; what you read; what you think; and ... well ... everything else.
2743
2744Kyle: You want me to be your slave?
2745
2746Matthew: This is a real bargain! You can work several lifetimes, and never save up enough money to buy 5000 acres of prime Tennessee timberland.
2747
2748Kyle: When would I get the land?
2749
2750Matthew: When you die, I’ll review your record to see how cheerfully you gave, and how well you obeyed my commands. If you pass the test, I’ll give your heirs a deed to the 5000 acres.
2751
2752Kyle: So my heirs will get the land. What’s in it for me?
2753
2754Matthew: Just think of the joy you’ll have! I have hundreds of testimonials – people filled with hope and comfort, knowing that their heirs will be set for life. You will have the opportunity to meet with these people at least twice a week. In fact, your meeting with them is another way you can show your sincerity and gratitude. Once you get into the program you will beg me for more commands. You will want to dedicate one day a week to Matthew Golden McClenney. You will want to spread the program to everyone you meet.
2755
2756Kyle: You say I will want to do those things. Are they really commands?
2757
2758Matthew: Yes, but it only increases your own happiness. I will never command you to do anything that creates unhappiness. Trust me.
2759
2760Kyle: Do what?
2761
2762Matthew: TRUST me.
2763
2764Kyle: Before I sign up, I’d like some proof that these thousands of acres really exist.
2765
2766Matthew: If you don’t trust me enough to take my word for it, I’ll be displeased with you. It shows me that you’re neither sincere nor grateful. Besides, there’s an evil conspiracy in Tennessee. Even the state officials are in on it. They’ll try to tell you this is a scam, but you must not listen to them. They only want to keep you from being happy.
2767
2768Kyle: So let me get this straight. You want me to pay you more than ten percent of my income, dedicate one seventh of my time to you, attend meetings at least twice a week, give up my freedom, and become your slave.
2769
2770Matthew: That’s right.
2771
2772Kyle: And in return, my heirs will get a piece of paper that purports to give them 5000 acres of Tennessee timberland, but there’s no way I can confirm that the land really exists.
2773
2774Matthew: Correct.
2775
2776Kyle: And this is supposed to make me happy?
2777
2778Matthew: Yes.
2779
2780Kyle: No thanks.
2781
2782Matthew: If you reject me, your heirs will suffer in miserable poverty!
2783
2784Kyle: Get out of my house, you fraud!
2785
2786(Kyle slams the door.)
2787G&T: Wow! You’d have to be really nuts to buy into a program like that.
2788Kyle: Yes, you’re right. Where were we?
2789
2790G&T: We were talking about the joy and comfort we get from becoming slaves to God and knowing that we will go to heaven instead of hell, even though there’s no way to verify that those places exist.
2791
2792Kyle: Right....
2793
2794G&T: Uh, huh....
2795
2796Kyle: Yep....
2797
2798G&T: So do you have a better alternative?
2799
2800Kyle: Yes. It’s called reality. We know that this life is real. We don’t know anything about life after death. So we should develop our world view to conform with the realities of this life. We should cooperate with our fellow human beings in order to make this world a better place. We should uphold equality of liberty and equality of justice for everyone. We should develop our ethics with human beings at the center – not fictitious gods. It’s time to let go of antiquated commandments that lead to misery, injustice, oppression and war. Jesus said he didn’t come to bring peace, but a sword (Matthew 10:34-36). He was right. Most wars and terrorist acts are caused by religion. I say it’s time to put away the swords and make peace on earth. Let’s put superstition and intolerance behind us. Let’s elevate reason, logic, philosophy and science to their rightful place. If we can stop bickering over religion, and start thinking straight, we can concentrate our efforts on cleaning up our corrupt governments. As long as there is freedom of thought, some people will opt to be religious. That’s alright. But as individuals start thinking correctly, we may become a majority. And when a majority turns to reason, the human race may have a chance at survival. Let every man, woman and child help make this world a better place. Let’s do it. Now.
2801
2802
2803EPILOGUE
2804The talking book looked pensive. After a long silence, he spoke: “I have given lip service to reason.”
2805
2806“But you have betrayed it,” I said.
2807
2808After another long silence, G&T looked at the ink on the coffee table, and said, “Do you think it’s possible for me to clarify my writing by adding more chapters? No, it would be easier to start over from scratch.”
2809
2810I responded, “You’re right.”
2811
2812After another long pause, G&T picked up the whiteout. He looked at the size of the bottle, and set it back down. He would need much more than just one little bottle.
2813
2814Finally, the book broke the silence. “Bring me a match,” he whispered.
2815
2816I gave G&T a match. He lit it solemnly, touched it to his own pages, and became a flaming torch. I diverted my eyes. A few minutes passed. I looked again. Only a whiff of smoke rose from the small pile of ashes; there would be no phoenix, no resurrection.
2817
2818I swept up the ashes and scattered them in my garden. “Goodbye, G&T,” I said. “Whatever faults you had, you correctly acknowledged the primacy of reason over faith. And to your credit, you had the integrity to remove yourself from the world, where your half-truths could have led careless readers astray.”
2819
2820Kyle's Home Page / Contact Me