wHkKCvRW

1
2[01-May-19 12:42 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
3so you are going to fence in 100 million people
4
5[01-May-19 12:42 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
6brilliant
7
8[01-May-19 12:42 AM] Crezilin#1718
9More like 75.
10
11[01-May-19 12:42 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
12Pay for my deportation
13
14[01-May-19 12:43 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
15Ooo I can denounce ancap, get a free fence, then agree with it
16
17[01-May-19 12:43 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
18FREE FENCES FOR EVERYONE
19
20[01-May-19 12:43 AM] Crezilin#1718
21I have to go eat dinner and stuff.
22
23[01-May-19 12:44 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
24who pays for all these fences/ deportations
25
26[01-May-19 12:44 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
27answer when you get back and tag me
28
29[01-May-19 12:44 AM] Crezilin#1718
30I was gonna be back tomorrow.
31
32[01-May-19 12:44 AM] Crezilin#1718
33I'll go into it tomorrow night.
34
35[01-May-19 12:44 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
36ok
37
38[01-May-19 12:44 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
39I want a free fence
40
41[01-May-19 12:44 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
42@Crezilin give me a free fence
43
44[01-May-19 04:30 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
45https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-age-youngest-person-biden-video-watch-a8887861.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR3RBlFlnDn-YLucxE94Uqq7_mB8q21BD0xzw9hdKGK-hi5IclaQc3-QmLM#Echobox=1556291866
46
47[01-May-19 04:31 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
48ok trump supporters explain this shit?
49
50[01-May-19 04:32 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
51your candidate is actually a pathological liar.
52
53[01-May-19 12:47 PM] ĞØĐ Graves#3101
54He says he feels young
55
56[01-May-19 12:48 PM] ĞØĐ Graves#3101
57Not that he is young
58
59[01-May-19 12:48 PM] ĞØĐ Graves#3101
60Unless you're memeing
61
62[01-May-19 02:05 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
63"I'm the youngest"
64
65[01-May-19 04:42 PM] engelsgang#9451
66
67https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/573247783411253254/venezuela-sanctions-2019-04.pdf
68
69[01-May-19 04:42 PM] engelsgang#9451
70```According to the National Survey on Living Conditions (ENCOVI by its acronym in Spanish), an annual survey of living conditions administered by three Venezuelan universities, there was a 31 percent increase in general mortality from 2017 to 2018.
7135 This would imply an increase of more than 40,000 deaths. 36 This would be a large loss of civilian life even in an armed conflict, and it is virtually certain that the US economic sanctions made a substantial contribution to these deaths. The percentage of deaths due to the sanctions is difficult to estimate because the counterfactual is unknowable, but it is worth noting that the counterfactual in the absence of sanctions could even be that mortality would have been reduced (see below), in the event that an economic recovery would have taken place.```
72
73[02-May-19 12:42 AM] Crezilin#1718
74@Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism Tbh I forgot the question.
75
76[02-May-19 02:46 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
77@Crezilin if there is no government who pays for the physical removals
78
79[02-May-19 02:49 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
80And the fences
81
82[02-May-19 03:11 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
83^
84
85[02-May-19 03:12 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
86Are you going to crowd fund the removal of approx a quarter of the country by your estimation?
87
88[02-May-19 03:26 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
89Oh damn
90
91[02-May-19 03:26 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
92My head
93
94[02-May-19 03:49 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
95Make all the commies pay for it
96
97[02-May-19 03:49 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
98Because that’s not taxation
99
100[02-May-19 11:16 AM] Crezilin#1718
101Oh yeah, I already explained that. Whoever was negotiating for letting them out would get their property, in exchange for letting them out. Since these are individuals and on a case by case basis the details could vary but it would almost always end up with their property traded, them being removed, or both.
102
103[02-May-19 11:18 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
104Yes but who is doing this negotiation? @Crezilin
105
106[02-May-19 11:18 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
107Who is paying these negotiators?
108
109[02-May-19 11:18 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
110And when the person refuses who enforces it and how are they paid?
111
112[02-May-19 11:19 AM] Crezilin#1718
113I mean I suppose you could hire a negotiator but why not do it yourself?
114
115[02-May-19 11:19 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
116Who?
117
118[02-May-19 11:19 AM] Crezilin#1718
119The person's rights protection agency should enforce contracts.
120
121[02-May-19 11:19 AM] Crezilin#1718
122The people around them.
123
124[02-May-19 11:19 AM] Crezilin#1718
125We went over this before.
126
127[02-May-19 11:19 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
128And why should they care?
129
130[02-May-19 11:20 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
131Who is going to pay to have their neighbours fenced in?
132
133[02-May-19 11:21 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
134Putting someone under house arrest permanently isn't cheap
135
136[02-May-19 11:21 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
137You know how much it cost the police to prevent Julian assajge from leaving the embassy?
138
139[02-May-19 11:21 AM] Crezilin#1718
140Because it's a good way to acquire property easily and when your neighbor is advocating for a violent revolution that's not in your best interest. It's true that some people may be apathetic but it's a good enough method I believe most commies would be removed.
141
142[02-May-19 11:21 AM] Crezilin#1718
143Why would they pay to build a fence?
144
145[02-May-19 11:22 AM] Crezilin#1718
146Why would you need a fence?
147
148[02-May-19 11:22 AM] engelsgang#9451
149Governments are already rights protection agencies
150
151[02-May-19 11:22 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
152So an ordernary wage earner is going to pay multiple other professionals wages while they watch all angles of a house?
153
154[02-May-19 11:23 AM] Crezilin#1718
155Why would they need to watch it that closely?
156
157[02-May-19 11:23 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
158Because otherwise people will simply ignore you?
159
160[02-May-19 11:24 AM] engelsgang#9451
161The functions of the state are already exercised by and to the benefit of the people who are able to "buy" them due to their control over the means of production
162
163[02-May-19 11:24 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
164If they can still leave their house why would they agree to hand over their property
165
166[02-May-19 11:24 AM] Crezilin#1718
167Oh they can but they'd obviously need the consent of <Person> otherwise they'll get arrested for trespassing.
168
169[02-May-19 11:25 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
170Who?
171
172[02-May-19 11:25 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
173Who will they need permission from?
174
175[02-May-19 11:25 AM] Crezilin#1718
176Whoever owns the property they're trespassing on?
177
178[02-May-19 11:26 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
179Ok so how do these rights protection agencies stop someone in a car from driving onto the property and then leaving without violating the drivers rights?
180
181[02-May-19 11:27 AM] Crezilin#1718
182What do you mean?
183
184[02-May-19 11:27 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
185Say I'm under house arrest and I hire an uber?
186
187[02-May-19 11:27 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
188Are you going to stop the uber driver?
189
190[02-May-19 11:27 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
191How he is violating nobodies property rights
192
193[02-May-19 11:28 AM] Crezilin#1718
194I find this really weird, but are you saying they pull into their driveway?
195
196[02-May-19 11:28 AM] Crezilin#1718
197And that's going on private property?
198
199[02-May-19 11:29 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
200I own a house you put me under house arrest I hire an uber to pick me up and take me to work
201
202[02-May-19 11:29 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
203How do you stop me?
204
205[02-May-19 11:29 AM] Crezilin#1718
206Who would put you under house arrest?
207
208[02-May-19 11:29 AM] Crezilin#1718
209No one has the authority to do that.
210
211[02-May-19 11:29 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
212According to you my neighbours?
213
214[02-May-19 11:30 AM] Crezilin#1718
215That's not house arrest, that's just not allowing you onto their property.
216
217[02-May-19 11:30 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
218They don't own the road
219
220[02-May-19 11:31 AM] Crezilin#1718
221Correct. But if this Uber driver has permission to use the road then they potentially could unless the owner disallows them from transporting that person on their road, which they were as apart of this example...they would, as they don't want them to use their road.
222
223[02-May-19 11:32 AM] Crezilin#1718
224But unless that road owner gave specifics then it'd be ok.
225
226[02-May-19 11:32 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
227So how exactly do you expect to force a quarter of the country by your reckoning from using the roads?
228
229[02-May-19 11:32 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
230Who will out in place the infrastructure to enforce this?
231
232[02-May-19 11:33 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
233You know, Uber is actually spelled "über"
234
235[02-May-19 11:33 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
236It's a germanism
237
238[02-May-19 11:33 AM] Crezilin#1718
239Ok Nazi.
240
241[02-May-19 11:33 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
242You dare calling me a Nazi
243
244[02-May-19 11:33 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
245And why exactly would they spend all of this money to lose a quarter of their customers?
246
247[02-May-19 11:34 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
248This would cost way more than paying their taxes
249
250[02-May-19 11:35 AM] engelsgang#9451
251How would water and sewage work in """ancapistan"""?
252
253[02-May-19 11:35 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
254Nuke it
255
256[02-May-19 11:36 AM] Crezilin#1718
257Tbh it would probably be under 25%, but at *most* it'd be 25% though. I'd say it's the price we pay for living in a civilized society though. If we allowed people like that in, it's like asking for a revolution which would cost Ancapistan much more in the long run.
258
259[02-May-19 11:36 AM] engelsgang#9451
260Are there somehow perpetually multiple pipe systems being constantly updated, ripped out of the ground, or newly built in order to ensure market competition?
261
262[02-May-19 11:37 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
263No capitalist would buy a road and maintain it and then pay people to make sure a quarter of the people who need the road can't use it.
264
265[02-May-19 11:37 AM] Crezilin#1718
266Also if some communists basically accepted that way of life, they probably wouldn't be removed.
267
268[02-May-19 11:37 AM] Crezilin#1718
269Where are you getting paying people from?
270
271[02-May-19 11:37 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
272Even non communists wouldn't accept this way of life
273
274[02-May-19 11:37 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
275How are they going to stop the uber driver if they have no staff watching the road?
276
277[02-May-19 11:38 AM] engelsgang#9451
278Tbh ancaps basically want to regress to a form of petit-bourgeois capitalism that existed before, like, the 1890s in Europe
279
280[02-May-19 11:38 AM] Crezilin#1718
281Well if you have a road and it's busy enough then you can afford security.
282
283[02-May-19 11:38 AM] Crezilin#1718
284Sure they could be understaffed.
285
286[02-May-19 11:38 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
287Why would they buy and maintain a road in the first place?
288
289[02-May-19 11:38 AM] Crezilin#1718
290But they'd have security even if they charged everyone to use the road.
291
292[02-May-19 11:38 AM] Crezilin#1718
293Money of course.
294
295[02-May-19 11:39 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
296So what inlf I live on a road that isn't busy?
297
298[02-May-19 11:39 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
299Why would anyone buy it?
300
301[02-May-19 11:39 AM] Crezilin#1718
302It'd probably be very cheap, yeah.
303
304[02-May-19 11:40 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
305Not to maintain or hire people to police it
306
307[02-May-19 11:40 AM] engelsgang#9451
308And even if that somehow happened in the first place, capitalism would still to deal with its internal contradictions and Imperialism would inevitably develop again
309
310[02-May-19 11:40 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
311So in order to get rid of taxes you are willing to have policed toll roads everywhere?
312
313[02-May-19 11:40 AM] Crezilin#1718
314Well yeah if there's some road out in the country and you own a ranch or whatever, you probably would not be bothered.
315
316[02-May-19 11:40 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
317The congestion would be insane
318
319[02-May-19 11:40 AM] Crezilin#1718
320How? Is it insane now?
321
322[02-May-19 11:41 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
323In alot of cities yes?
324
325[02-May-19 11:41 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
326If you add in a checkpoint every time the road owner changes then it would be far worse.
327
328[02-May-19 11:41 AM] Crezilin#1718
329Then you're saying a monopoly would be a good thing in this case?
330
331[02-May-19 11:42 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
332In the UK we had riots when thatcher introduces a poll tax on the roads you think people would be fine having to pay multiple.people a toll just to get to work?
333
334[02-May-19 11:42 AM] Crezilin#1718
335I know it goes back to our disagreements about that.
336
337[02-May-19 11:42 AM] Crezilin#1718
338But, if someone owns it less toll checkpoints.
339
340[02-May-19 11:43 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
341So know you want a monopoly?
342
343[02-May-19 11:43 AM] Crezilin#1718
344For some things it could be more efficient.
345
346[02-May-19 11:43 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
347What is the benefit.of this system again?
348
349[02-May-19 11:43 AM] Crezilin#1718
350Like roads in that case.
351
352[02-May-19 11:44 AM] Crezilin#1718
353No financial rape. No throwing people in prison for <Insert anti-NAP reason.> Would be the big two.
354
355[02-May-19 11:44 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
356No financial rape?
357
358[02-May-19 11:44 AM] Crezilin#1718
359Taxation.
360
361[02-May-19 11:44 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
362Apart from when I drive to work and have to pay 5 toll companies
363
364[02-May-19 11:44 AM] Crezilin#1718
365And then bonuses like allowing communist physical removal.
366
367[02-May-19 11:45 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
368And If there is a monopoly why wouldn't they price gouge?
369
370[02-May-19 11:45 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
371Why not buy the roads around a hospital and charge people a grand
372
373[02-May-19 11:45 AM] Crezilin#1718
374If a monopoly attempted insane prices there would be a revolution.
375
376[02-May-19 11:46 AM] Crezilin#1718
377And we disagree about the hypotheticals of that.
378
379[02-May-19 11:46 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
380I though you deported all the revolutionaries?
381
382[02-May-19 11:46 AM] Crezilin#1718
383So.
384
385[02-May-19 11:46 AM] Crezilin#1718
386We deported leftists.
387
388[02-May-19 11:47 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
389Bit your system would turn everyone into a leftist in about a week
390
391[02-May-19 11:47 AM] Crezilin#1718
392I doubt it.
393
394[02-May-19 11:47 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
395If people are going to have a revolution against the capitalist class then they are leftists
396
397[02-May-19 11:50 AM] Crezilin#1718
398It's not against the capitalist class, it is against someone who decided to use their business incorrectly and so they need to be reminded. They'd probably end up getting modern lynched.
399
400[02-May-19 11:50 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
401How?
402
403[02-May-19 11:50 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
404They would have an army of rights enforcers
405
406[02-May-19 11:50 AM] Crezilin#1718
407So would the people though.
408
409[02-May-19 11:51 AM] Crezilin#1718
410At least theoretically.
411
412[02-May-19 11:51 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
413That would violate the nap
414
415[02-May-19 11:52 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
416He bought all the roads around the hospital fair and square.
417
418[02-May-19 11:55 AM] Crezilin#1718
419The NAP are guide lines but not a holy text. I don't think this would even happen as it's against the road owners self interest, but if it did he could look forward to conflict as people would not accept confinement in such a way.
420
421[02-May-19 11:56 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
422So Why does price gouging happen right now?
423
424[02-May-19 11:57 AM] Crezilin#1718
425You'd have to be retarded to do this. It would be incredibly rare. It's like asking why the U.S. President doesn't bomb China. We've never had any do it so far, I don't think we will, but hypothetically yes it would only take one tard to bomb China to start a giant conflict.
426
427[02-May-19 11:57 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
428If someone has a monopoly on the roads and has a huge Merc army why tf wouldn't they charge whatever they want?
429
430[02-May-19 11:58 AM] Crezilin#1718
431Because the citizens are represented by multiple merc armies?
432
433[02-May-19 11:58 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
434How?
435
436[02-May-19 11:58 AM] Crezilin#1718
437Rights protection agencies.
438
439[02-May-19 11:58 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
440Do you know what the distribution of wealth is?
441
442[02-May-19 11:58 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
443Rich people have more money than the bottom 99%
444
445[02-May-19 11:58 AM] turnips#7959
446So
447
448[02-May-19 11:58 AM] Crezilin#1718
449Thank you Africa.
450
451[02-May-19 11:59 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
452They could outspend everyone
453
454[02-May-19 11:59 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
455No in the us
456
457[02-May-19 11:59 AM] Crezilin#1718
458IIRC specifically in the US it was not so extreme.
459
460[02-May-19 11:59 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
461https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_inequality_in_the_United_States#/media/File%3AWealth_distribution_by_percentile_in_the_United_States.png
462
463[02-May-19 12:00 PM] turnips#7959
464Cool
465
466[02-May-19 12:01 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
467Look at the graph for distribution of family wealth
468
469[02-May-19 12:01 PM] turnips#7959
470Yes
471
472[02-May-19 12:01 PM] turnips#7959
473Literally it’s.capitalism and it’s good
474
475[02-May-19 12:02 PM] Crezilin#1718
476According to Wikipedia the top 1% has 38% of the wealth within the U.S.
477
478[02-May-19 12:02 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
479>Wikipedia
480
481[02-May-19 12:02 PM] turnips#7959
482If you hate the poor so bad give them you money
483
484[02-May-19 12:02 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
485Look at the graph and tell.me that the 99% are gonna crowd fund a bigger Merc army than the rich
486
487[02-May-19 12:03 PM] covfefe2020#7724
488Big Mac army
489
490[02-May-19 12:03 PM] Crezilin#1718
491Well the 99% would have more than the 1%.
492
493[02-May-19 12:03 PM] turnips#7959
494Cool
495
496[02-May-19 12:03 PM] Crezilin#1718
497So they hypothetically could.
498
499[02-May-19 12:03 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
500They need that money to buy food
501
502[02-May-19 12:03 PM] covfefe2020#7724
503
504https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/573540126668619818/image0.jpg
505
506[02-May-19 12:03 PM] turnips#7959
507Yes
508
509[02-May-19 12:03 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
510And pay tolls multiple times a day
511
512[02-May-19 12:04 PM] covfefe2020#7724
513I’m putting a tax on thinking about me now
514
515[02-May-19 12:04 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
516@turnips do you even know what we are talking about?
517
518[02-May-19 12:04 PM] turnips#7959
519Yes
520
521[02-May-19 12:04 PM] covfefe2020#7724
522He really doesn’t
523
524[02-May-19 12:04 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
525We are talking about in ancapistan
526
527[02-May-19 12:04 PM] turnips#7959
528Cool
529
530[02-May-19 12:04 PM] turnips#7959
531Fuck you
532
533[02-May-19 12:04 PM] covfefe2020#7724
534:happy:
535
536[02-May-19 12:05 PM] turnips#7959
537Delete that you craptard
538
539[02-May-19 12:05 PM] Crezilin#1718
540RUSSIAN AGENT EXPOSED
541
542[02-May-19 12:05 PM] turnips#7959
543Damn it
544
545[02-May-19 12:06 PM] turnips#7959
546I have you now aaa hole
547
548[02-May-19 12:06 PM] turnips#7959
549
550https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/573540717599916045/image0.jpg
551
552[02-May-19 12:06 PM] Crezilin#1718
553Quick save the imagine and photoshop things onto his phone screen.
554
555[02-May-19 12:06 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
556Nobody cares
557
558[02-May-19 12:10 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
559
560https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/573541850766377002/FB_IMG_1556813412822.jpg
561
562[02-May-19 12:10 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
563Me rn
564
565[02-May-19 12:11 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
566PPSh on the back
567
568[02-May-19 12:11 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
569👍
570
571[02-May-19 02:10 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
572https://www.polygraph.info/a/fact-check-russia-today-reuters/29915005.html
573
574[02-May-19 07:56 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
575@turnips
576https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/573659057311842314/unknown.png
577
578[02-May-19 07:56 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
579here is a quote from some western historians about how modern historians view the purge.
580
581[02-May-19 08:25 PM] turnips#7959
582Ok so maybe Stalin didn’t decide who died but he still thought it was a good idea
583
584[02-May-19 08:25 PM] turnips#7959
585And treason for Stalin is equivalent to staying in sick
586
587[02-May-19 08:26 PM] turnips#7959
588Something involuntary
589
590[02-May-19 08:26 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
591that's quite the claim
592
593[02-May-19 08:27 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
594there is no evidense that that happened you are just making that up
595
596[02-May-19 08:27 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
597Stalin defined treason the same way anyone did
598
599[02-May-19 08:29 PM] turnips#7959
600Do you apose me
601
602[02-May-19 08:30 PM] turnips#7959
603Isn’t that his question
604
605[02-May-19 08:30 PM] turnips#7959
606If you say yes it treason for you
607
608[02-May-19 08:31 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
609if you where trying to overthrow the government then yes that was treason
610
611[02-May-19 08:31 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
612if you are trying to overthrow the US govt that is treason
613
614[02-May-19 08:31 PM] turnips#7959
615No it isn’t
616
617[02-May-19 08:31 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
618yes it is?
619
620[02-May-19 08:32 PM] turnips#7959
621We actually have a constitutional right to overthrow the government
622
623[02-May-19 08:32 PM] turnips#7959
624Neat right
625
626[02-May-19 08:32 PM] engelsgang#9451
627no
628
629[02-May-19 08:32 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
630
631https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/573668231953383425/unknown.png
632
633[02-May-19 08:33 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
634point to that line in the constitution pls
635
636[02-May-19 08:33 PM] engelsgang#9451
637the declaration of independence says that revolution will happen periodically whenever people dont like their government or something like that
638
639[02-May-19 08:33 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
640tfw anarchists and communists got executed for saying they want to overthrow the government
641
642[02-May-19 08:33 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
643in the 1900's
644
645[02-May-19 08:33 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
646RIP sacco and vinzetti
647
648[02-May-19 08:33 PM] engelsgang#9451
649but the constitution cannot and does not somehow ensure peoples right to overthrow the government
650
651[02-May-19 08:33 PM] Rest_In_XXXNightmare_Death#2085
652Good
653
654[02-May-19 08:33 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
655rip joe hill
656
657[02-May-19 08:33 PM] engelsgang#9451
658sacco and vanzetti were mainly oppressed bc of anti italian racism 🍝
659
660[02-May-19 08:33 PM] turnips#7959
661@engelsgang  it is in the bill of rights
662
663[02-May-19 08:34 PM] engelsgang#9451
664where
665
666[02-May-19 08:34 PM] Crezilin#1718
667It really is. I can dig it up if you want.
668
669[02-May-19 08:34 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
670pls quote it
671
672[02-May-19 08:34 PM] turnips#7959
673Guns
674
675[02-May-19 08:34 PM] Crezilin#1718
676But I finally unlocked Necromancer.
677
678[02-May-19 08:34 PM] turnips#7959
6792
680
681[02-May-19 08:34 PM] Crezilin#1718
682After over a year of work.
683
684[02-May-19 08:34 PM] Rest_In_XXXNightmare_Death#2085
685The right to form a milita?
686
687[02-May-19 08:34 PM] turnips#7959
688Second amendment
689
690[02-May-19 08:34 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
691the second ammendment guarantees the right to bear arms
692
693[02-May-19 08:34 PM] Rest_In_XXXNightmare_Death#2085
694If the government becomes tyrannical
695
696[02-May-19 08:34 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
697not overthrow the US govt
698
699[02-May-19 08:34 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
700that's against the law
701
702[02-May-19 08:35 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
703its the right for a militia to bear arms against the government
704
705[02-May-19 08:35 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
706which isnt really doable anymore
707
708[02-May-19 08:35 PM] turnips#7959
709It is
710
711[02-May-19 08:35 PM] Rest_In_XXXNightmare_Death#2085
712If it was people's right to overthrow the government and not be charged with treason we'd see it every new president
713
714[02-May-19 08:35 PM] engelsgang#9451
715```A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.```
716
717[02-May-19 08:35 PM] turnips#7959
718Just nobody wants to leave
719
720[02-May-19 08:36 PM] engelsgang#9451
721where does it say that people have the right to overthrow the us government
722
723[02-May-19 08:36 PM] turnips#7959
724Everywhere
725
726[02-May-19 08:36 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
727its not so much against "the government" but if the freedom of the people becomes underthreat from the government
728
729[02-May-19 08:36 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
730iirc
731
732[02-May-19 08:36 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
733article 3 section 3 of the US constitution defines treason
734
735[02-May-19 08:36 PM] engelsgang#9451
736that says nothing about overthrowing the government
737
738[02-May-19 08:37 PM] turnips#7959
739How does it not
740
741[02-May-19 08:37 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
742
743https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/573669388218007572/unknown.png
744
745[02-May-19 08:37 PM] turnips#7959
746It says if the government is shit than go shoot it with a gun
747
748[02-May-19 08:37 PM] engelsgang#9451
749no it doesnt
750
751[02-May-19 08:37 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
752where does it say that?
753
754[02-May-19 08:38 PM] Rest_In_XXXNightmare_Death#2085
755If the government is shit you have the tools to overthrow it
756
757[02-May-19 08:38 PM] Rest_In_XXXNightmare_Death#2085
758And the government can't take those tools away
759
760[02-May-19 08:38 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
761that would be levying war against the govt explicitly defined in article 3 sect 3 as treason
762
763[02-May-19 08:38 PM] engelsgang#9451
764it says that "a well regulated militia [is] necessary to the security of a free State", not that you have a constitutional right to overthrow the government, or even that military action is necessary to secure "freedom"
765
766[02-May-19 08:38 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
767if youre really trying to overthrow the government what does it matter if its legal or not
768
769[02-May-19 08:38 PM] turnips#7959
770True
771
772[02-May-19 08:39 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
773youre trying to dismantle the establishments the government has, and rebuild your own
774
775[02-May-19 08:39 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
776legality doesnt matter
777
778[02-May-19 08:40 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
779Stalin defined treason the way everyone defines it
780
781[02-May-19 08:42 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
782here is how counter-revolutionary activities where defined in the ussr
783https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/573670631539998730/unknown.png
784
785[02-May-19 08:48 PM] turnips#7959
786So no speech
787
788[02-May-19 08:50 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
789no anti soviet propoganda
790
791[02-May-19 08:50 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
792or 6 months in prison max
793
794[02-May-19 08:50 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
795you could speak against officials and criticize specific govt policies and things like that
796
797[02-May-19 08:53 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
798although it was considered too vague and gotten rid of after stalin died
799
800[02-May-19 09:03 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
801What about pro Free Soviet propaganda
802
803[02-May-19 09:06 PM] turnips#7959
804So basically if I said that communism is bad here and I can fix it I would be sentenced to life in gulag because let’s face it you will die in 3 months
805
806[02-May-19 09:07 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
807No
808
809[02-May-19 09:07 PM] engelsgang#9451
810you dont die in 3 months in gulags
811
812[02-May-19 09:08 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
813You also didn’t get jailed for criticizing communism
814
815[02-May-19 09:08 PM] turnips#7959
816You just said that if you criticize the state you get gulag
817
818[02-May-19 09:08 PM] engelsgang#9451
819...no?
820
821[02-May-19 09:08 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
822“Anti soviet propaganda”
823
824[02-May-19 09:09 PM] turnips#7959
825Go to gulag
826
827[02-May-19 09:09 PM] engelsgang#9451
828gulag mortality rates were usually less than 10%, but they spiked during times of war or famine
829
830[02-May-19 09:09 PM] turnips#7959
83110% daily
832
833[02-May-19 09:09 PM] engelsgang#9451
834no, 10% annually
835
836[02-May-19 09:10 PM] turnips#7959
837Cool so only 10%were given the death penalty
838
839[02-May-19 09:10 PM] engelsgang#9451
840actually it was usually 1-5%, i just said "less than 10%"
841
842[02-May-19 09:10 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
843Member this lmao
844https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/573677709192986625/image0.jpg
845
846[02-May-19 09:10 PM] engelsgang#9451
847kalinas a dengite 🤡
848
849[02-May-19 09:11 PM] turnips#7959
850No but anime is bad so I dislike than
851
852[02-May-19 09:11 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
853Dengists 🤮
854
855[02-May-19 09:12 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
856
857https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/573678125775323136/image0.png
858
859[02-May-19 09:12 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
860Is this anti soviet propaganda
861
862[02-May-19 09:12 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
863Will stalin send me to jail for this 😔
864
865[02-May-19 09:12 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
866luxemburgists :thebigsad:
867
868[02-May-19 09:13 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
869What knife
870
871[02-May-19 09:13 PM] engelsgang#9451
872im prolly closest to leftcom on there ngl
873
874[02-May-19 09:15 PM] engelsgang#9451
875except for hating natlib
876
877[02-May-19 09:15 PM] turnips#7959
878You guys  ever heard of national anarchism
879
880[02-May-19 09:15 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
881Why do you hate unions 😔
882
883[02-May-19 09:16 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
884ive spoken to one on discord
885
886[02-May-19 09:16 PM] turnips#7959
887Cool
888
889[02-May-19 09:16 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
890National anarchism 🤡
891
892[02-May-19 09:17 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
893Anarcho monarchism 🤡
894
895[02-May-19 09:17 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
896Anarcho fascism 🤡
897
898[02-May-19 09:17 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
899Anarcho capitalism 🤡
900
901[02-May-19 09:17 PM] engelsgang#9451
902i dont rly hate them, i just think that they can just as easily be used as a tool of capitalist restoration as they can tools of class struggle
903
904[02-May-19 09:17 PM] engelsgang#9451
905im a hegelian monarchist
906
907[02-May-19 09:17 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
908I like syndicalist ideas
909
910[02-May-19 09:17 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
911I think a general strike would be a very effective way to get what we want
912
913[02-May-19 09:18 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
914Even if it’s just small bits
915
916[02-May-19 09:18 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
917the general strike isn't necesssarily an syn
918
919[02-May-19 09:19 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
920it predates ansyn
921
922[02-May-19 09:19 PM] engelsgang#9451
923afaik strikes have been declining in frequency like across the world for the past couple decades
924
925[02-May-19 09:19 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
926Yea strikes and union participation is faking
927
928[02-May-19 09:19 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
929Falling*
930
931[02-May-19 09:19 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
932And yea it’s not specifically ansyn
933
934[02-May-19 09:19 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
935But it’s part of their tactics
936
937[02-May-19 09:19 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
938strikes are one of the main forms of class struggle class struggle generally has been decreasing
939
940[02-May-19 09:19 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
941Basically I just support the IWW lol
942
943[02-May-19 09:21 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
944unions are heavily crippled in the US
945
946[02-May-19 09:21 PM] engelsgang#9451
947yeah but i think the same trend is seen worldwide
948
949[02-May-19 09:22 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
950They outlaw wildcat strikes, solidarity strikes, mass picketing, secondary boycotts, and closed shops
951
952[02-May-19 09:23 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
953Yea I’d say the decline of union membership is partly because of corporate unionism and how shit they are at actually supporting their workers when they cozy up with management
954
955[02-May-19 09:23 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
956alot of the same conditions that have spurred the weakening of trade unions are global.
957
958[02-May-19 09:24 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
959i think it's throwing the baby out with the bathwater to say that since unions have been shit the past few decades then unions/strikes aren't still important.
960
961[02-May-19 09:29 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
962I find that unions can be a tool for some sort of “platformism” where you can have workers together regardless of any ideological trappings, fighting for the same things
963
964[02-May-19 09:33 PM] engelsgang#9451
965i break with syndicalism in that i don't think that unions are useful beyond providing a platform for the organization of the proletariat
966
967[02-May-19 09:34 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
968That’s somewhat how I am
969
970[02-May-19 09:34 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
971I don’t fully agree with how syndicalist society would function, but I agree with most of their other aspects
972
973[04-May-19 05:23 PM] monkeygsun#2361
974Omg free college, why didn't we elect Bernie! Oh wait...
975
976[04-May-19 05:28 PM] turnips#7959
977Nothing is ever free
978
979[04-May-19 05:28 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
980Just like free speech
981
982[04-May-19 05:29 PM] Rest_In_XXXNightmare_Death#2085
983https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yow_BJeb8TI
984
985[04-May-19 05:29 PM] Rest_In_XXXNightmare_Death#2085
986big battle grounds
987
988[04-May-19 05:29 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
989Cursed
990
991[04-May-19 05:30 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
992Ancom vs ML epic rap battle
993
994[04-May-19 05:30 PM] Rest_In_XXXNightmare_Death#2085
995is che cute? Find out next time on myth busters
996
997[04-May-19 05:31 PM] turnips#7959
998Actually that’s no longer a running program
999
1000[04-May-19 05:31 PM] turnips#7959
1001They have spin-offs though
1002
1003[05-May-19 09:23 PM] engelsgang#9451
1004
1005https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/574768095223087135/1557105755890.png
1006
1007[05-May-19 09:23 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1008@clukurduk
1009
1010[05-May-19 09:23 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1011@clukurduk
1012
1013[05-May-19 09:25 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
1014fake
1015
1016[05-May-19 09:27 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1017:thebigsad:
1018
1019[05-May-19 09:28 PM] turnips#7959
1020Name  spamming
1021
1022[05-May-19 09:29 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1023Not
1024
1025[05-May-19 09:34 PM] turnips#7959
1026It is
1027
1028[05-May-19 09:35 PM] turnips#7959
10293@s in one mutinie
1030
1031[05-May-19 11:49 PM] covfefe2020#7724
1032Cpn it would be easier to say it was ironic than to deny it happened
1033
1034[05-May-19 11:49 PM] covfefe2020#7724
1035But you do you
1036
1037[06-May-19 09:01 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
1038@新世紀Orby private prisons, if done correctly, would be good
1039
1040[06-May-19 09:01 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
1041change my mind
1042
1043[06-May-19 09:02 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1044
1045https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/575125200144826391/image0.png
1046
1047[06-May-19 09:02 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
1048i changed my own mind
1049
1050[06-May-19 09:02 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
1051in their current form, they are bad
1052
1053[06-May-19 09:02 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
1054but they could be done
1055
1056[06-May-19 09:02 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
1057in a better way
1058
1059[06-May-19 09:03 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1060Private prisons promote policing for profit and the creation of laws that put more people in prison so the private prisons can make profit
1061
1062[06-May-19 09:03 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
1063private prison companies get paid a set rate which, based on recidivism rates and prisoner behavior, is lowered
1064
1065[06-May-19 09:03 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
1066or something that incentivizes rehabilitation, not necessarily this
1067
1068[06-May-19 09:04 PM] engelsgang#9451
1069🤡
1070
1071[06-May-19 09:04 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1072You can’t incentivize rehabilitation in a for profit industry when you gain more profit by not rehabilitating them
1073
1074[06-May-19 09:04 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1075That’s why those shit exploitative rehab centers in California and Florida exist
1076
1077[06-May-19 09:05 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
1078how do they get paid by not rehabiliting them
1079
1080[06-May-19 09:05 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1081https://youtu.be/mggiD9OvRQQ
1082
1083[06-May-19 09:05 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1084They are in rehab longer, or then end back in
1085
1086[06-May-19 09:05 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
1087bruh i'm not watching a 16 minute video in a debate
1088
1089[06-May-19 09:05 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1090:honk:
1091
1092[06-May-19 09:06 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
1093alright, bye
1094
1095[06-May-19 09:06 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1096It’s a video about for profit rehab
1097
1098[06-May-19 09:06 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1099And how people don’t get rehabilitated in them because it would cut into profit to actually do it
1100
1101[06-May-19 09:06 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
1102okay, can you explain it yourself
1103
1104[06-May-19 09:06 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1105I just did
1106
1107[06-May-19 09:07 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
1108why would it cut into profit
1109
1110[06-May-19 09:07 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1111Why do you think
1112
1113[06-May-19 09:07 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
1114and rehab isn't the same as prisons
1115
1116[06-May-19 09:07 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
1117why not use an example of private prisons, when that's what we're talking about?
1118
1119[06-May-19 09:07 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1120If you make money rehabilitating someone, why would you make an actual attempt at rehabilitating them
1121
1122[06-May-19 09:08 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
1123because i want money?
1124
1125[06-May-19 09:08 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1126But you make more money if they are in there longer
1127
1128[06-May-19 09:08 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1129Or leave thinking they have been rehabilitated but end up back
1130
1131[06-May-19 09:08 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1132You don’t make money off someone who’s fully rehabilitated
1133
1134[06-May-19 09:09 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
1135that's why i'm saying we pay companies doing private prisons based on the how the prisoner acts in prison and whether he offends again
1136
1137[06-May-19 09:09 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1138That’s what happens in these for profit rehabs
1139
1140[06-May-19 09:10 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1141They think they have been acting good and are “cured”, they get released, and end up back in a few months later
1142
1143[06-May-19 09:10 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1144If your solution to private prisons is just regulation, then what’s the point of keeping them private
1145
1146[06-May-19 09:11 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
1147i didn't say regulation
1148
1149[06-May-19 09:11 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
1150do you know how private prisons work?
1151
1152[06-May-19 09:11 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1153Paying private prisons based on how they perform is a regulation
1154
1155[06-May-19 09:12 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1156It’s not magically not a regulation because you formerly payed them per prisoner
1157
1158[06-May-19 09:12 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
1159Paying them per prisoner is a regulation by that logic
1160
1161[06-May-19 09:12 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1162It is yes
1163
1164[06-May-19 09:12 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1165And changing that regulation defeats the purpose of keeping them private
1166
1167[06-May-19 09:12 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
1168i don't think you know what a regulation is
1169
1170[06-May-19 09:13 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1171:honk:
1172
1173[06-May-19 09:13 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
1174it's a rule
1175
1176[06-May-19 09:13 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
1177not the same as the government leasing something out
1178
1179[06-May-19 09:13 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1180:honk:
1181
1182[06-May-19 09:13 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1183They aren’t leasing something out
1184
1185[06-May-19 09:14 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
1186well, they're contracting
1187
1188[06-May-19 09:14 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1189They are changing how much the government will pay you based on performance
1190
1191[06-May-19 09:14 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
1192yeah how is that a regulation?
1193
1194[06-May-19 09:15 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1195They enact legislation that changes how the payment system for private prisons functions
1196
1197[06-May-19 09:15 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1198
1199https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/575128464634675200/image0.png
1200
1201[06-May-19 09:15 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1202Literally a regulation change
1203
1204[06-May-19 09:15 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
1205why does that mean it should just get nationalized
1206
1207[06-May-19 09:15 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1208Especially when you need to either force the private prison or the government to keep track of prisoner performance during and after release to pay the private prison properly
1209
1210[06-May-19 09:16 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1211If you force the government to do that, you have to pay the employees in charge of it which wouldn’t really be cost effective or pay the prison to do that which also wouldn’t be cost effective
1212
1213[06-May-19 09:16 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
1214bruh
1215
1216[06-May-19 09:16 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
1217the government already knows and keeps logs of whether someone repeat offends
1218
1219[06-May-19 09:17 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1220Who tracks the prison they went to and how much the prison should be paid?
1221
1222[06-May-19 09:17 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1223It doesn’t magically send a check
1224
1225[06-May-19 09:17 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
1226it's just a matter of which prison, and they might already do that idk
1227
1228[06-May-19 09:17 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1229Or magically remove money from their accounts if a prisoner offends again
1230
1231[06-May-19 09:18 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
1232idk how we want to do the paying
1233
1234[06-May-19 09:18 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1235There is no benefit to reforming how the private prison industry works on top of lobbyists who will push for laws to put more people in prison
1236
1237[06-May-19 09:18 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
1238actually, if i think about it, most industries with government interference end up getting lobbyists
1239
1240[06-May-19 09:19 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
1241so they'd probs just lobby for a better system
1242
1243[06-May-19 09:19 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1244What
1245
1246[06-May-19 09:19 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
1247microsoft didn't have any lobbyists for years, then the government fucked with them
1248
1249[06-May-19 09:20 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
1250so let's just make the system totally private, no government interference
1251
1252[06-May-19 09:20 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
1253the police should be private too
1254
1255[06-May-19 09:20 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
1256whole justice system
1257
1258[06-May-19 09:20 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1259🤡
1260
1261[06-May-19 09:20 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
1262the government is doing a bad job
1263
1264[06-May-19 09:20 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1265It’s like clown world in here
1266
1267[06-May-19 09:20 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1268@engelsgang check this out
1269
1270[06-May-19 09:21 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
1271the us has the highest rate of imprisonment
1272
1273[06-May-19 09:21 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
1274we should privatize it
1275
1276[06-May-19 09:21 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
1277it will be better
1278
1279[06-May-19 09:21 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
1280the whole justice system, private
1281
1282[06-May-19 09:30 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1283So we should encourage a system that profits of people in prison to solve high imprisonment?
1284
1285[06-May-19 09:30 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1286🤡
1287
1288[06-May-19 09:31 PM] engelsgang#9451
1289holy shit lol
1290
1291[06-May-19 09:31 PM] engelsgang#9451
1292"lets give private companies unrestricted control over peoples lives, theres no way that could go wrong"
1293
1294[06-May-19 09:40 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
1295"lets give the government unrestricted control over peoples lives, theres no way that could go wrong"
1296
1297[06-May-19 09:40 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
1298@engelsgang
1299
1300[06-May-19 09:42 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
1301as we all know, unrestricted government control worked great in such places like the German Reich
1302
1303[06-May-19 09:44 PM] engelsgang#9451
1304What
1305
1306[06-May-19 09:44 PM] engelsgang#9451
1307How does that have anything to do with anything I've said
1308
1309[06-May-19 09:45 PM] engelsgang#9451
1310You've completely deflected
1311
1312[06-May-19 10:00 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
1313i'm not saying give private companies unrestrictricted control
1314
1315[06-May-19 10:00 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
1316the justice thing was a meme
1317
1318[06-May-19 10:00 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
1319also join me in the centrist gng
1320
1321[06-May-19 10:02 PM] engelsgang#9451
1322im unclear as to how exactly you could have privately owned prisons without the firms that privately own them controlling the lives of the people who live there
1323
1324[06-May-19 10:07 PM] turnips#7959
1325If you skip work you go to mcgulag
1326
1327[06-May-19 10:08 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
1328reading TGA rn
1329
1330[06-May-19 10:08 PM] turnips#7959
1331Unless vacation
1332
1333[06-May-19 10:08 PM] covfefe2020#7724
1334
1335https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/575141774914355202/image0.jpg
1336
1337[06-May-19 10:08 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
1338it's really interesting
1339
1340[06-May-19 10:08 PM] covfefe2020#7724
1341Turnip’s
1342
1343[06-May-19 10:08 PM] turnips#7959
1344Yes
1345
1346[06-May-19 10:08 PM] engelsgang#9451
1347lmfao cpn
1348
1349[06-May-19 10:08 PM] engelsgang#9451
1350did u really block me
1351
1352[06-May-19 10:08 PM] engelsgang#9451
1353epic cowardice moments
1354
1355[06-May-19 10:08 PM] turnips#7959
1356Does it matter
1357
1358[06-May-19 10:09 PM] engelsgang#9451
1359i just think its funny is all
1360
1361[06-May-19 10:10 PM] turnips#7959
1362Then laugh on your own I don’t care about haw you feel
1363
1364[06-May-19 10:13 PM] turnips#7959
1365
1366https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/575143070409031681/image0.png
1367
1368[06-May-19 10:40 PM] covfefe2020#7724
1369But will he do the Mario?
1370
1371[06-May-19 10:43 PM] Rest_In_XXXNightmare_Death#2085
1372engels said that about me
1373
1374[06-May-19 10:43 PM] Rest_In_XXXNightmare_Death#2085
1375god graves
1376
1377[06-May-19 10:43 PM] Rest_In_XXXNightmare_Death#2085
1378😭
1379
1380[07-May-19 08:39 AM] turnips#7959
1381@covfefe2020  no I won’t do the Mario
1382
1383[07-May-19 08:46 AM] turnips#7959
1384
1385https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/575302360151097344/image0.png
1386
1387[07-May-19 09:02 AM] covfefe2020#7724
1388
1389https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/575306352189243392/image0.png
1390
1391[07-May-19 09:03 AM] turnips#7959
1392Ok
1393
1394[07-May-19 09:36 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
1395@turnips do you care about my feelings?
1396
1397[07-May-19 09:51 AM] turnips#7959
1398No
1399
1400[07-May-19 10:12 AM] covfefe2020#7724
1401Do you care about my feelings @turnips
1402
1403[07-May-19 10:31 AM] turnips#7959
1404Honestly not really
1405
1406[07-May-19 10:34 AM] covfefe2020#7724
1407
1408https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/575329705595502622/image0.png
1409
1410[07-May-19 11:40 AM] turnips#7959
1411Why
1412
1413[07-May-19 11:42 AM] covfefe2020#7724
1414
1415https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/575346621831708703/image0.png
1416
1417[07-May-19 11:43 AM] turnips#7959
1418I am concerned
1419
1420[07-May-19 11:43 AM] turnips#7959
1421For your mental stability
1422
1423[07-May-19 12:27 PM] covfefe2020#7724
1424
1425https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/575357949569138709/image0.jpg
1426
1427[07-May-19 12:27 PM] covfefe2020#7724
1428I got bored so I biked home
1429
1430[07-May-19 12:34 PM] turnips#7959
1431What why
1432
1433[07-May-19 12:38 PM] covfefe2020#7724
1434I was bored
1435
1436[07-May-19 12:38 PM] covfefe2020#7724
1437How is school
1438
1439[07-May-19 12:40 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
1440A comedic video about Tienanmen Square: https://youtu.be/RiNxKjuU2MM
1441
1442[07-May-19 01:09 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
1443What happens when you post wrongthink under the rule of the Communist Party of China (make sure to enable captions): https://youtu.be/cCOAbkTs_a4
1444
1445[07-May-19 01:12 PM] engelsgang#9451
1446We live in a society
1447
1448[07-May-19 01:13 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1449Socialism is when you arrest people for shitposting
1450
1451[07-May-19 01:22 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
1452In practice, it seems.
1453
1454[07-May-19 01:25 PM] engelsgang#9451
1455JJ is swcc gang because China calls itself socialist
1456
1457[07-May-19 01:25 PM] engelsgang#9451
1458:mao:
1459
1460[07-May-19 01:27 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
1461For some reason they always go hand in hand. I was fascinated to watch people in DC give all kinds of justifications and arguments for the aggressive suppression of speech. There was so little awareness of how oppressive their ideas were yet they were widely accepted.
1462
1463So the more pertinent question is why do communists have such a strong tendency to feel so comfortable suppressing speech? I think there is a psychological dynamic going on there that bears investigation.
1464
1465[07-May-19 01:28 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1466
1467https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/575373311685427210/image0.jpg
1468
1469[07-May-19 01:28 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
1470weak
1471
1472[07-May-19 01:29 PM] engelsgang#9451
1473It's because Marxism, unlike liberalism, views speech/ideology as having a material basis, and thus does not attach a moral value to a state allowing all speech to be expressed freely
1474
1475[07-May-19 01:33 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
1476These conversations give me a visceral sense of relief that you guys lost the Cold War. Like I’m already feeling better about my day. Thanks.
1477
1478[07-May-19 01:33 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1479:thebigsad:
1480
1481[07-May-19 01:33 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1482Diamat failed us again
1483
1484[07-May-19 01:33 PM] engelsgang#9451
1485I'm glad you're here to have an honest and productive conversation about politics
1486
1487[07-May-19 01:34 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
1488China isn’t. 😉
1489
1490[07-May-19 01:34 PM] engelsgang#9451
1491I'm aware
1492
1493[07-May-19 01:34 PM] engelsgang#9451
1494Doesn't excuse you from being dishonest though
1495
1496[07-May-19 01:35 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
1497I think you have lost sight of the meaning of that word.
1498
1499[07-May-19 01:35 PM] engelsgang#9451
1500I haven't
1501
1502[07-May-19 01:36 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
1503Alright, this is boring. I’m off for a bit.
1504
1505[07-May-19 01:36 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1506:thebigsad:
1507
1508[07-May-19 01:36 PM] engelsgang#9451
1509See, I made a statement about how Marxism differs from liberalism in its views on speech, and you responded with "I'm glad you guys (???) lost the cold war."
1510
1511[07-May-19 01:37 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1512Tfw anarkiddies lost the Cold War
1513
1514[07-May-19 01:40 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
1515@新世紀Orby U lost cold war
1516
1517[07-May-19 01:40 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1518True 😔
1519
1520[07-May-19 01:40 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
1521:tankie:
1522
1523[07-May-19 01:40 PM] Rest_In_XXXNightmare_Death#2085
1524USSR lost the real war
1525
1526[07-May-19 01:40 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1527Rip sacco and vinzetti 😔
1528
1529[07-May-19 01:45 PM] engelsgang#9451
1530@JuicyJuuce Commies EXPOSED for TOTALITARIAN ideoLOGY
1531https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/575377800769437706/unknown-134.png
1532
1533[07-May-19 01:46 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
1534Bordiga Gang
1535
1536[07-May-19 06:09 PM] turnips#7959
1537When you change your name and role to make a joke
1538
1539[07-May-19 06:11 PM] engelsgang#9451
1540wh
1541
1542[07-May-19 06:11 PM] engelsgang#9451
1543that was from another server
1544
1545[07-May-19 06:12 PM] turnips#7959
1546Same difference
1547
1548[07-May-19 06:13 PM] turnips#7959
1549But you still said those things
1550
1551[07-May-19 07:34 PM] engelsgang#9451
1552yeah i did
1553
1554[07-May-19 09:01 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
1555
1556https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/575487331566485515/unknown.png
1557
1558[07-May-19 09:01 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
1559<https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-42304594>
1560
1561[07-May-19 09:03 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
1562So the legislature Maduro declared into existence (after the socialist party lost the majority in the legitimate legislature) declared the rule that opposition parties who who didn't participate in the municipal election could not participate in the presidential reason...
1563
1564because... reasons
1565
1566[07-May-19 09:03 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1567“Declared into existence”
1568
1569[07-May-19 09:03 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1570It was law since chavez lmao
1571
1572[07-May-19 09:04 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
1573indeed. he lost the legislation and declared they were going to make a more powerful one. by his sole decree.
1574
1575[07-May-19 09:04 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1576What
1577
1578[07-May-19 09:04 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
1579in chavez's time the decision to even create the new legislature would have to have been voted on first. Not for Maduro tho.
1580
1581[07-May-19 09:05 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
1582I guess it is easier to be reasonable when you are popular
1583
1584[07-May-19 09:05 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1585It’s been law for a while that you must participate in municipal elections to participate in presidential
1586
1587[07-May-19 09:05 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
1588nah, the new fraudulent legislature declared that rule. see above link.
1589
1590[07-May-19 09:09 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1591The link doesn’t say that though
1592
1593[07-May-19 09:09 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1594It just says they have the power to adjust the constitution
1595
1596[07-May-19 09:09 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1597It doesn’t say he had them add it in after the fact
1598
1599[07-May-19 09:09 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1600Or even that it was added recently
1601
1602[07-May-19 09:11 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1603It’s it kinda weird how Venezuelan opposition told the UN not to send anyone to observe the election’s posterity
1604
1605[07-May-19 09:11 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1606If they really thought the process was corrupt they’d want to do that wouldn’t they?
1607
1608[07-May-19 09:12 PM] turnips#7959
1609But they run people over with tanks
1610
1611[07-May-19 09:12 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1612Have UN proof and evidence of corruption in the election process
1613
1614[07-May-19 09:12 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1615@turnips it’s nothing new for states to kill protestors
1616
1617[07-May-19 09:12 PM] turnips#7959
1618Capitalist America doesn’t
1619
1620[07-May-19 09:12 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1621https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings
1622
1623[07-May-19 09:12 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1624What
1625
1626[07-May-19 09:13 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1627students got killed for peacefully protesting bombings in Cambodia
1628
1629[07-May-19 09:14 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1630Civil rights era had people killed for peaceful protests
1631
1632[07-May-19 09:14 PM] turnips#7959
1633Did they have permits
1634
1635[07-May-19 09:14 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1636We don’t need permits to protest
1637
1638[07-May-19 09:14 PM] turnips#7959
1639You do
1640
1641[07-May-19 09:14 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1642The bill of rights says we have the right to assemble
1643
1644[07-May-19 09:14 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1645And the right to free speech
1646
1647[07-May-19 09:14 PM] turnips#7959
1648But you need to schedule
1649
1650[07-May-19 09:14 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1651Both are parts of peaceful protest
1652
1653[07-May-19 09:15 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1654No you don’t
1655
1656[07-May-19 09:15 PM] turnips#7959
1657You do
1658
1659[07-May-19 09:15 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1660:thebigsad:
1661
1662[07-May-19 09:15 PM] turnips#7959
1663Ok here I will give an example
1664
1665[07-May-19 09:15 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1666Did Venezuela opposition have a permit?
1667
1668[07-May-19 09:16 PM] turnips#7959
1669They don’t do that there
1670
1671[07-May-19 09:16 PM] turnips#7959
1672Also no example
1673
1674[07-May-19 09:16 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1675They didn’t have a permit though
1676
1677[07-May-19 09:16 PM] turnips#7959
1678So they killed the capitalist protesters
1679
1680[07-May-19 09:17 PM] turnips#7959
1681Sad
1682
1683[07-May-19 09:17 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1684What
1685
1686[07-May-19 09:17 PM] turnips#7959
1687Oh are you talking America or venisuala
1688
1689[07-May-19 09:17 PM] Rest_In_XXXNightmare_Death#2085
1690smh dumb capitalists
1691
1692[07-May-19 09:18 PM] Rest_In_XXXNightmare_Death#2085
1693why cant they do what the USSR did and just imprison people who speak out against the government
1694
1695[07-May-19 09:18 PM] Rest_In_XXXNightmare_Death#2085
1696gosh
1697
1698[07-May-19 09:18 PM] turnips#7959
1699So you like running over protesters
1700
1701[07-May-19 09:19 PM] turnips#7959
1702Ye I don’t think we can have a moral argument
1703
1704[07-May-19 09:19 PM] Rest_In_XXXNightmare_Death#2085
1705also the example orby gave took place in the 70's
1706
1707[07-May-19 09:19 PM] turnips#7959
1708Cool
1709
1710[07-May-19 09:19 PM] turnips#7959
1711I too can read
1712
1713[07-May-19 09:20 PM] Rest_In_XXXNightmare_Death#2085
1714i didnt say you couldnt
1715
1716[07-May-19 09:20 PM] Rest_In_XXXNightmare_Death#2085
1717he should give an example of capitalist america shooting protestors today
1718
1719[07-May-19 09:20 PM] turnips#7959
1720Ohhhh
1721
1722[07-May-19 09:21 PM] turnips#7959
1723Ok please do then
1724
1725[07-May-19 09:21 PM] Rest_In_XXXNightmare_Death#2085
1726also
1727
1728[07-May-19 09:21 PM] Rest_In_XXXNightmare_Death#2085
1729
1730https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/575492488094154752/Tianasquare.jpg
1731
1732[07-May-19 09:21 PM] turnips#7959
1733Is it just me or is there slowmode
1734
1735[07-May-19 09:21 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1736This is from the ACLU
1737https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/575492509984096276/image0.png
1738
1739[07-May-19 09:22 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1740Kent state protests happened on public ground on their campus which you do not need a permit for
1741
1742[07-May-19 09:23 PM] turnips#7959
1743I saw a guy on the street
1744
1745[07-May-19 09:23 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1746a dead guy on a street
1747
1748[07-May-19 09:23 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1749killing him was justified because he was 2 feet off the grass
1750
1751[07-May-19 09:23 PM] turnips#7959
1752All the dead were on the street
1753
1754[07-May-19 09:23 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1755justified
1756
1757[07-May-19 09:24 PM] turnips#7959
1758No
1759
1760[07-May-19 09:24 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1761you step off the grass of your protest and you get shot dead
1762
1763[07-May-19 09:24 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1764justified
1765
1766[07-May-19 09:24 PM] turnips#7959
1767But they didn’t show how far off they started
1768
1769[07-May-19 09:25 PM] turnips#7959
1770I could probably run across a 2 lane road before 13 seconds was up
1771
1772[07-May-19 09:25 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1773what
1774
1775[07-May-19 09:25 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1776
1777https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/575493442461761556/1410788001731_wps_13_04_May_1970_Original_capt.png
1778
1779[07-May-19 09:25 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1780they were in the grass there
1781
1782[07-May-19 09:25 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1783its also on campus
1784
1785[07-May-19 09:26 PM] turnips#7959
1786Campus traffic
1787
1788[07-May-19 09:26 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1789what traffic
1790
1791[07-May-19 09:27 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1792
1793https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/575493949276553246/thekentstateshootings-may4252c197002.png
1794
1795[07-May-19 09:27 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1796military jeeps?
1797
1798[07-May-19 09:27 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1799they didnt use the road
1800
1801[07-May-19 09:28 PM] Rest_In_XXXNightmare_Death#2085
1802damn
1803
1804[07-May-19 09:28 PM] Rest_In_XXXNightmare_Death#2085
1805america was corrupt when richord nixon was  leading
1806
1807[07-May-19 09:29 PM] Rest_In_XXXNightmare_Death#2085
1808who would of thought
1809
1810[07-May-19 09:54 PM] covfefe2020#7724
1811
1812https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/575500807257063424/image0.jpg
1813
1814[07-May-19 09:57 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1815hybrids dont have enough horsepower to run over a person 🤡
1816
1817[07-May-19 09:57 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1818duh
1819
1820[07-May-19 10:01 PM] covfefe2020#7724
1821If you don’t use hybrids you literally hate polar bears
1822
1823[07-May-19 10:01 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
1824true
1825
1826[08-May-19 08:54 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
1827The venesualan govt didn't run over protesters
1828
1829[08-May-19 08:57 AM] covfefe2020#7724
1830That’s a joke right
1831
1832[08-May-19 08:58 AM] covfefe2020#7724
1833https://youtu.be/H4QnAe4qs_g
1834
1835[08-May-19 09:27 AM] engelsgang#9451
1836how do you know that that vehicle was being operated by someone in the  Venezuelan govt
1837
1838[08-May-19 09:30 AM] covfefe2020#7724
1839Thank you for that Engels
1840
1841[08-May-19 09:35 AM] engelsgang#9451
1842Actually though
1843
1844[08-May-19 09:40 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
1845Vehicle was pulled over by govt and drivers arrested iirc
1846
1847[08-May-19 09:42 AM] covfefe2020#7724
1848Source
1849
1850[08-May-19 10:35 AM] Rest_In_XXXNightmare_Death#2085
1851https://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-politics-base-vehicle/venezuela-national-guard-vehicle-runs-over-protesters-in-caracas-reuters-tv-idUSKCN1S61ZB
1852
1853[08-May-19 10:36 AM] Rest_In_XXXNightmare_Death#2085
1854how do you know police officers are the ones who shoot black people in america?
1855
1856[08-May-19 10:36 AM] Rest_In_XXXNightmare_Death#2085
1857maybe its just some dudes who stole police uniforms
1858
1859[08-May-19 10:37 AM] Rest_In_XXXNightmare_Death#2085
1860cause its very easy to steal those things, as easy as stealing a military vehicle amirite marxists?
1861
1862[08-May-19 10:46 AM] covfefe2020#7724
1863Smh that’s just imperialst propoganda you’re postings about
1864
1865[08-May-19 11:00 AM] engelsgang#9451
1866I mean given that it was a coup attempt at the time, it's not unreasonable to think that someone opposing the Venezuelan government could have taken a government vehicle
1867
1868[08-May-19 11:24 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
1869The fact that this was your immediate interpretation of events is telling. It seems to be common practice among political extremists to try to twist reality to fit their worldview. This applies both to the far left *and* the far right.
1870
1871[08-May-19 11:40 AM] covfefe2020#7724
1872Then ran over people supporting their cause
1873
1874[08-May-19 11:41 AM] turnips#7959
1875Engels that is the 2bd dumbest thing I have ever seen you say
1876
1877[08-May-19 11:42 AM] covfefe2020#7724
1878I was thinking he was gonna try to justify it
1879
1880[08-May-19 11:42 AM] turnips#7959
1881Nope you can’t justify speculation
1882
1883[08-May-19 11:43 AM] covfefe2020#7724
1884?
1885
1886[08-May-19 11:43 AM] covfefe2020#7724
1887
1888https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/575709304250826752/image0.png
1889
1890[08-May-19 11:43 AM] turnips#7959
1891Cool
1892
1893[08-May-19 11:45 AM] covfefe2020#7724
1894
1895https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/575709926845055033/image0.png
1896
1897[08-May-19 12:03 PM] engelsgang#9451
1898@JuicyJuucei mean I've seen articles about that not being an action taken by the government
1899
1900[08-May-19 12:03 PM] engelsgang#9451
1901Also, if two people disagree on something, either of them can just as easily accuse the other of twisting reality
1902
1903[08-May-19 12:03 PM] engelsgang#9451
1904So all you really said there was "I'm a centrist"
1905
1906[08-May-19 12:06 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
1907@JuicyJuuce have you seen any good evidence the govt ordered the armoured car to attack the protesters or are you just assuming it because it fits your worldview?
1908
1909[08-May-19 12:07 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
1910And there is the all to predictable bad faith straw man.
1911
1912[08-May-19 12:07 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
1913How is that a Strawman?
1914
1915[08-May-19 12:08 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
1916This is the kind of time wasting nonsense that degrades the quality of debate.
1917
1918[08-May-19 12:10 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
1919Occam's razor says that we shouldn't make more assumptions than necessary
1920
1921[08-May-19 12:11 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
1922So how can we make the assumption the govt ordered it then? @CpnNevosity
1923
1924[08-May-19 12:11 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
1925Please point to where anyone at all mentioned *anything* about it being ordered.
1926
1927[08-May-19 12:11 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
1928It has less assumptions than that a military car was stolen and that the government was framed
1929
1930[08-May-19 12:12 PM] covfefe2020#7724
1931Can I read one of the articles
1932
1933[08-May-19 12:13 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
1934Turnips was implying it? @JuicyJuuce
1935
1936[08-May-19 12:13 PM] covfefe2020#7724
1937Guys it was actually guaido that was killing people because he hates his citizens and was trying to get to a boot licking session
1938
1939[08-May-19 12:13 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
1940Also, multiple vehicles were running over protestors
1941
1942[08-May-19 12:13 PM] covfefe2020#7724
1943Don’t take anything turnips says
1944
1945[08-May-19 12:13 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
1946You know that there was a militairy coup going on when this happened
1947
1948[08-May-19 12:13 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
1949Yes
1950
1951[08-May-19 12:14 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
1952So it is the same number of assumptions whether it was the govt or the coup?
1953
1954[08-May-19 12:14 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
1955No
1956
1957[08-May-19 12:14 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
1958Yes
1959
1960[08-May-19 12:14 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
1961Ok so no one said it, I certainly didn’t, and yet you claimed it was my assumption. A+
1962
1963[08-May-19 12:14 PM] covfefe2020#7724
1964More likely the government had government vehicles
1965
1966[08-May-19 12:14 PM] covfefe2020#7724
1967And that the government would want to get rid of protestors
1968
1969[08-May-19 12:14 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
1970It isn't your assumption?
1971
1972[08-May-19 12:15 PM] covfefe2020#7724
1973That is my assumption
1974
1975[08-May-19 12:15 PM] covfefe2020#7724
1976But I still want to see the articles stating it wasn’t them
1977
1978[08-May-19 12:15 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
1979You're assuming that a government vehicle wasn't operated by a government worker
1980
1981[08-May-19 12:16 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
1982I'm not
1983
1984[08-May-19 12:16 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
1985There where multiple factions in the militairy a pro and anti govt faction
1986
1987[08-May-19 12:17 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
1988Whether you assume it was one or the other isn't any different.
1989
1990[08-May-19 12:17 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
1991It wasn't a normal situation where only the govt would have access to militairy vehicles.
1992
1993[08-May-19 12:18 PM] covfefe2020#7724
1994They forgot to lock up the motor pool?
1995
1996[08-May-19 12:18 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
1997Yes, but the it's still an assumption
1998
1999[08-May-19 12:19 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
2000@JuicyJuuce turnips was clearly saying it was the govt which was what ideas responding to. So ofc when you reply to my reply to turnip I am going to assume your commenting was accusingnke of twisting reality by not assuming the govt did it read turnips convo.
2001
2002[08-May-19 12:20 PM] covfefe2020#7724
2003I always assume the government operates government vehicles
2004
2005[08-May-19 12:20 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
2006I don't have the sourvenfor the video of the drivers being arrested so I can't back it up @CpnNevosity
2007
2008[08-May-19 12:20 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2009A government employee did it, but you specifically said it was “ordered.”
2010
2011[08-May-19 12:20 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
2012@covfefe2020 during a militairy coup?
2013
2014[08-May-19 12:20 PM] covfefe2020#7724
2015Especially if the actions of the driver would help the said government
2016
2017[08-May-19 12:21 PM] covfefe2020#7724
2018@Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism yes
2019
2020[08-May-19 12:21 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
2021How did the drivers actions help the govt?
2022
2023[08-May-19 12:22 PM] covfefe2020#7724
2024They don’t seem keen on all the protestors
2025
2026[08-May-19 12:22 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
2027They helped the opposition more than anyone
2028
2029[08-May-19 12:22 PM] covfefe2020#7724
2030Because it was seen
2031
2032[08-May-19 12:22 PM] covfefe2020#7724
2033It it wasn’t
2034
2035[08-May-19 12:22 PM] covfefe2020#7724
2036Tfw nobody is calling the Russians imperialist despite them supporting maduro and Cuba
2037
2038[08-May-19 12:23 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
2039Yes imperialism is when you do have allies
2040
2041[08-May-19 12:23 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
2042Wtf is your definition of imperialism?
2043
2044[08-May-19 12:25 PM] covfefe2020#7724
2045Extending your power through force
2046
2047[08-May-19 12:25 PM] covfefe2020#7724
2048The US and Russia are both supporting someone
2049
2050[08-May-19 12:26 PM] covfefe2020#7724
2051Yet only the US are the ones doing something wrong
2052
2053[08-May-19 12:26 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
2054Very vague and useless definition of imperialism.
2055
2056[08-May-19 12:26 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
2057The US is attenpting to overthrow the elected govt and install a puppet who will sell the oil to their corporations
2058
2059[08-May-19 12:27 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
2060Russia is trading and offering diplomatic support.
2061
2062[08-May-19 12:27 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
2063See the difference?
2064
2065[08-May-19 12:28 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
2066How exactly is Russia even using force?
2067
2068[08-May-19 12:28 PM] covfefe2020#7724
2069They aren’t
2070
2071[08-May-19 12:28 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
2072By this standard all diplomatic relations are imperialistic
2073
2074[08-May-19 12:28 PM] covfefe2020#7724
2075I’ve heard all of the USs are
2076
2077[08-May-19 12:28 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
2078Most of them are
2079
2080[08-May-19 12:43 PM] turnips#7959
2081Multiple times USSR has used force to extend there reach
2082
2083[08-May-19 12:48 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
2084@turnips true
2085
2086[08-May-19 12:48 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
2087But that's not what imperialism is.
2088
2089[08-May-19 12:51 PM] Rest_In_XXXNightmare_Death#2085
2090this has to be the dumbest bruh moment of the socialists in this server
2091
2092[08-May-19 12:51 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
2093Debatedly you could call their relationship with Hungary/Czeck where imperialistic in some sense.
2094
2095[08-May-19 12:51 PM] Rest_In_XXXNightmare_Death#2085
2096when orby comes out looking smarter there is a problem
2097
2098[08-May-19 12:52 PM] Rest_In_XXXNightmare_Death#2085
2099bang bang
2100
2101[08-May-19 12:54 PM] engelsgang#9451
2102@covfefe2020 that's because Russia isn't supporting someone who's going to give them economic and political control over the Venezuelan oil industry
2103
2104[08-May-19 12:56 PM] engelsgang#9451
2105@Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism 
2106```Imperialist wars also occurred in the period of slavery (the war between Rome and Carthage was on both sides an imperialist war), as well as in the Middle Ages and in the epoch of mercantile capitalism. A war is certainly imperialist if both warring sides oppress foreign countries or nationalities, and are fighting for their share of the loot and for the right to "oppress and rob" more than the others. ```
2107
2108-Lenin
2109
2110[08-May-19 12:57 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
2111@engelsgang ik
2112
2113[08-May-19 12:59 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
2114I'm not saying capitalist imperialism is the only imperialism but imperialism implies taking control of the economy of another state "using force to extend your power" isn't sufficient.
2115
2116[08-May-19 01:00 PM] engelsgang#9451
2117The "oppression and robbery" part applies to the USSR's relationship with Cuba and the relationship of Russians to Siberia & the Central Asian republics
2118
2119[08-May-19 01:02 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
2120I suppose you could argue that the USSR took advantage of its position in the socialist world and the dependency of the smaller states in an imperialistic fashion.
2121
2122[08-May-19 01:05 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
2123I not sure if it's qualitatively or quantitatively different from the much more direct control and ownership exerted by a capitalist empire or by a slave empire
2124
2125[08-May-19 01:05 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2126whew, we narrowly avoided an "imperialism is when non-communists do it" moment there
2127
2128[08-May-19 01:06 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
2129My main issue with soviet russia (so far) is the gulag system
2130
2131[08-May-19 01:07 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
2132In America, if you're arrested, you have the right to an attorney
2133
2134[08-May-19 01:07 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
2135You also have the right to remain silent
2136
2137[08-May-19 01:07 PM] engelsgang#9451
2138On paper*
2139
2140[08-May-19 01:07 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
2141In soviet russia, they'd torture a confession out of you in the most brutal medieval ways imaginable, and interrogators would lie about what the law actually said, and you'd never get to see an attorney
2142
2143[08-May-19 01:08 PM] engelsgang#9451
2144Where are u getting that from, Solzhenitsyn?
2145
2146[08-May-19 01:08 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
2147You might never even know what your arrest was for!
2148
2149[08-May-19 01:08 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
2150Yup
2151
2152[08-May-19 01:09 PM] engelsgang#9451
2153Yeah that's not a good source at all
2154
2155[08-May-19 01:09 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
2156Why?
2157
2158[08-May-19 01:10 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
2159Sure, it's anecdotal
2160
2161[08-May-19 01:10 PM] engelsgang#9451
2162Its a work of fiction written by a reactionary anti-semite
2163
2164[08-May-19 01:10 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
2165And large sections of the books he didn't even write
2166
2167[08-May-19 01:10 PM] engelsgang#9451
2168I'd recommend reading actual historians like Getty rather than borderline fascists
2169
2170[08-May-19 01:12 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
2171Other historians have criticized getty's work as being Stalin apologetics
2172
2173[08-May-19 01:12 PM] engelsgang#9451
2174It isn't at all
2175
2176[08-May-19 01:12 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
2177I'm sure you're completely unbiased here
2178
2179[08-May-19 01:12 PM] engelsgang#9451
2180Also, who are those "other historians'
2181
2182[08-May-19 01:13 PM] engelsgang#9451
2183I mean Getty literally wrote a paper about, as he put it, stalinist repression
2184
2185[08-May-19 01:13 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
2186Getty is very anti stalin if you read his work
2187
2188[08-May-19 01:13 PM] engelsgang#9451
2189And talked about how, whether you think 1 million or 20 million died, it was unacceptable
2190
2191[08-May-19 01:13 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
2192Matt Lenoe, John Earl Haynes, and Harvey Klehr
2193
2194[08-May-19 01:13 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
2195Yeah, if the counts off by millions, the points made
2196
2197[08-May-19 01:13 PM] engelsgang#9451
2198You're reading this on Wikipedia aren't you
2199
2200[08-May-19 01:13 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
2201I don't know enough about him though
2202
2203[08-May-19 01:14 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
2204Yes
2205
2206[08-May-19 01:14 PM] engelsgang#9451
2207Yeah again
2208
2209[08-May-19 01:14 PM] engelsgang#9451
2210Relying on Wikipedia and Solzhenitsyn for ur info about Soviet history is not a good idea
2211
2212[08-May-19 01:14 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
2213Either way, it disgusts me that you defend Stalin
2214
2215[08-May-19 01:14 PM] engelsgang#9451
2216http://sovietinfo.tripod.com/GTY-Penal_System.pdf read this and tell me that Gettys pro Stalin
2217
2218[08-May-19 01:15 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
2219These people can criticize him but they can't actually dispute any of his numbers with evidence
2220
2221[08-May-19 01:15 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
2222He was incredibly racist (see, assigning collective guilt to ethnicities)
2223
2224[08-May-19 01:15 PM] engelsgang#9451
2225What do u mean I "defend Stalin"? The mass deportations were absolutely unacceptable
2226
2227[08-May-19 01:15 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
2228Most liberals like Roosevelt and Churchill and they did those things
2229
2230[08-May-19 01:16 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
2231And we don't defend stalin doing those things
2232
2233[08-May-19 01:17 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
2234I see youre talking about Stalin again
2235
2236[08-May-19 01:17 PM] engelsgang#9451
2237I only 'defend stalin' in that i argue against frivolous or meaningless claims like the famine of 1932-33 being deliberately engineered or the concept of "totalitarianism"
2238
2239[08-May-19 01:18 PM] engelsgang#9451
2240I think he perpetrated colonialism in Siberia and he was overall not a very good Marxist
2241
2242[08-May-19 01:30 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2243When you forcibly export millions of tons of grain from a starving region it is hard to believe that you have much empathy for the residents.
2244
2245[08-May-19 01:33 PM] engelsgang#9451
2246Grain exports dropped to a third of what they were in 1931 during the famine
2247
2248[08-May-19 01:34 PM] engelsgang#9451
2249I encourage you to read modern historiography about the 1932 famine rather than relying on narratives of it that were popularised before the Soviet archives were released
2250
2251[08-May-19 01:34 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2252Wait a minute... are you saying that overall exports were drastically lower during a famine? I can't believe it!
2253
2254[08-May-19 01:35 PM] engelsgang#9451
2255Well they could have continued exporting at previous rates, but they didn't
2256
2257[08-May-19 01:35 PM] engelsgang#9451
2258They massively cut back on the grain exports during the period
2259
2260[08-May-19 01:36 PM] engelsgang#9451
2261And I have never heard a claim they grain production was cut to a third of what it was during that famine
2262
2263[08-May-19 01:36 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2264"Well they could have continued exporting at previous rates, but they didn't"
2265
2266hahaha... *We could have starved you even more but we didn't. Why aren't you thanking us?*
2267
2268[08-May-19 01:36 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2269this is hilarious
2270
2271[08-May-19 01:36 PM] engelsgang#9451
2272I mean, I don't think any country has ever spontaneously stopped exporting grain entirely, even in famine
2273
2274[08-May-19 01:37 PM] engelsgang#9451
2275Again, read a book, like years of hunger
2276
2277[08-May-19 01:37 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2278Ooooh, we went from *they could have kept exports at 100%*, to *no one drops exports to 0%*. This lack of nuance is like... your thing.
2279
2280[08-May-19 01:38 PM] engelsgang#9451
2281I'm not saying exporting grain wasnt a mistake, but pretending that it was an intentional plot to starve people when they massively scaled down grain exports in that time is silly
2282
2283[08-May-19 01:38 PM] engelsgang#9451
2284JJ you're misrepresenting me
2285
2286[08-May-19 01:38 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2287no that's a great summary of what you said.
2288
2289[08-May-19 01:38 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2290just with numbers
2291
2292[08-May-19 01:38 PM] engelsgang#9451
2293Well you were implying they any grain export is killing people
2294
2295[08-May-19 01:38 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2296but it shows how absurd it is so that means I'm "misrepresenting" you
2297
2298[08-May-19 01:39 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2299nope
2300
2301[08-May-19 01:39 PM] engelsgang#9451
2302Yeah you were
2303
2304[08-May-19 01:39 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2305i implied that the *level* of export killed people
2306
2307[08-May-19 01:39 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2308again, nuance
2309
2310[08-May-19 01:39 PM] engelsgang#9451
2311How
2312
2313[08-May-19 01:39 PM] engelsgang#9451
2314Do you have any statistics on that?
2315
2316[08-May-19 01:40 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2317by redistributing the grain to more favorable residents such that the brunt of the starvations happened in, of all areas, the place you were exporting from
2318
2319[08-May-19 01:40 PM] engelsgang#9451
2320They massively decreased the level, like I said, but then you pretended as if that meant that "we" were intentionally killing fewer people, and they should be grateful
2321
2322[08-May-19 01:40 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2323strange how no one suffered as much as the less favored ukranians (and kazakhs)
2324
2325[08-May-19 01:40 PM] engelsgang#9451
2326Hence why I accused you of dishonesty
2327
2328[08-May-19 01:40 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2329hence!
2330
2331[08-May-19 01:40 PM] engelsgang#9451
2332Yes, famine hit the hardest in areas that relied on agriculture for their economy
2333
2334[08-May-19 01:41 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2335hahaha those areas that just so happened to be forcibly robbed of their agricultural output
2336
2337[08-May-19 01:41 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2338this is great
2339
2340[08-May-19 01:41 PM] engelsgang#9451
2341Exports are "robbery"
2342
2343[08-May-19 01:41 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2344you're the best engels
2345
2346[08-May-19 01:41 PM] engelsgang#9451
2347Lmfao
2348
2349[08-May-19 01:41 PM] engelsgang#9451
2350Jj
2351
2352[08-May-19 01:41 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2353yep
2354
2355[08-May-19 01:41 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2356forcibly "exporting" grain from the starving farmers who farmed it
2357
2358[08-May-19 01:42 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2359the mental contortions that communists have to go through to defend their dear leaders
2360
2361[08-May-19 01:42 PM] engelsgang#9451
2362Ah you see
2363
2364[08-May-19 01:43 PM] engelsgang#9451
2365They actually reduced grain exports in response to the famine, so that kind of negates the idea that it was intentional, no?
2366
2367[08-May-19 01:43 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2368nope
2369
2370[08-May-19 01:43 PM] engelsgang#9451
2371Yes, they did
2372
2373[08-May-19 01:43 PM] engelsgang#9451
2374https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://eastsidemarxism.files.wordpress.com/2017/04/r-w-davies-stephen-g-wheatcroft-the-industrialisation-of-soviet-russia-volume-5-the-years-of-hunger-soviet-agriculture-1931-1933.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiSjZzMvYziAhWBct8KHTX2CkMQFjAAegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw3C6rVjoe8WPGhmD82Q5hly
2375
2376[08-May-19 01:43 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2377they did
2378
2379[08-May-19 01:43 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2380and no it doesn't negate it
2381
2382[08-May-19 01:43 PM] engelsgang#9451
2383Read an actual history book
2384
2385[08-May-19 01:43 PM] engelsgang#9451
2386Why not?
2387
2388[08-May-19 01:43 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2389basic math
2390
2391[08-May-19 01:43 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2392like really really basic math
2393
2394[08-May-19 01:43 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2395anyone wanna help engels out here?
2396
2397[08-May-19 01:43 PM] engelsgang#9451
2398Walk me through how a government trying to starve people would cut exports by 70%
2399
2400[08-May-19 01:44 PM] engelsgang#9451
2401Instead of being condescending and saying "basic math" in lieu of an argument
2402
2403[08-May-19 01:45 PM] engelsgang#9451
2404Also, why do you think I'm defending "my leader"?
2405
2406[08-May-19 01:45 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2407because if the famine is bad enough, reducing exports by only 70% might very well result in the area being exported from starving while areas importing the grain not starving (nearly as much).
2408
2409[08-May-19 01:45 PM] engelsgang#9451
2410And how do we know they knew how bad the famine was and that that level of exports would starve people?
2411
2412[08-May-19 01:46 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2413hahahahaha
2414
2415[08-May-19 01:46 PM] engelsgang#9451
2416Can you answer?
2417
2418[08-May-19 01:46 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2419because the people were mass starving and they kept exporting
2420
2421[08-May-19 01:46 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2422and executing people who "stole" from the export
2423
2424[08-May-19 01:46 PM] engelsgang#9451
2425Lol
2426
2427[08-May-19 01:46 PM] engelsgang#9451
2428Wikipedia tier knowledge
2429
2430[08-May-19 01:46 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2431facts suck!
2432
2433[08-May-19 01:47 PM] engelsgang#9451
2434Facts like Wheatcrofts work?
2435
2436[08-May-19 01:47 PM] engelsgang#9451
2437They apparently do
2438
2439[08-May-19 01:47 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2440communists would never execute unfavorables
2441
2442[08-May-19 01:47 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
2443They exported wheat for about 1 year
2444
2445[08-May-19 01:47 PM] engelsgang#9451
2446The book I linked argued that the famine was a result of incompetence and not intention
2447
2448[08-May-19 01:47 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
2449Not enough time to see something happen
2450
2451[08-May-19 01:48 PM] engelsgang#9451
2452And I'm not sure how you know how well the soviet government knew about these conditions
2453
2454[08-May-19 01:48 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2455Oh there was plenty of imcompetance as well. Collectivization was disastrous.
2456
2457[08-May-19 01:48 PM] engelsgang#9451
2458Though presumably you've already read thrat boo thoroughly enough to laugh it off
2459
2460[08-May-19 01:48 PM] engelsgang#9451
2461*forced collectivization
2462
2463[08-May-19 01:48 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2464*how could the government know that millions of people were starving?*
2465
2466[08-May-19 01:48 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
2467How could the US knew that they would lose the Vietnam War?
2468
2469[08-May-19 01:49 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2470hahahahaha
2471
2472[08-May-19 01:49 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2473you guys are amazing
2474
2475[08-May-19 01:49 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
2476How could Germany knew that they would loose WW2?
2477
2478[08-May-19 01:49 PM] engelsgang#9451
2479Ok well you're first assuming that these massive death tolls that you read on Wikipedia are accurate
2480
2481[08-May-19 01:49 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2482A+ communist argument
2483
2484[08-May-19 01:49 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
2485Your question cannot even be rhetoric because it doesn't make any sense
2486
2487[08-May-19 01:49 PM] engelsgang#9451
2488I'm talking about the extent of food shortages
2489
2490[08-May-19 01:49 PM] engelsgang#9451
2491Not the amount of deaths
2492
2493[08-May-19 01:50 PM] engelsgang#9451
2494Again, if you could present actual arguments rather than crude straw men
2495
2496[08-May-19 01:50 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2497"massive death tolls... Not the amount of deaths"
2498
2499[08-May-19 01:50 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
2500In the 1920s they had highspeed telecoms to alert the government about problems
2501
2502[08-May-19 01:50 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
2503Furthermore you're avoiding our arguments
2504
2505[08-May-19 01:50 PM] engelsgang#9451
2506@JuicyJuuce you're stitching two messages together
2507
2508[08-May-19 01:50 PM] engelsgang#9451
2509Are you even reading what I'm writing?
2510
2511[08-May-19 01:51 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2512indeed i am. somehow the government was too primitive to know that millions of its people that it was actively repressing was starving"
2513
2514[08-May-19 01:51 PM] engelsgang#9451
2515I am asking how you know that the Soviet government knew, accurately, the extent of agricultural failure
2516
2517[08-May-19 01:51 PM] engelsgang#9451
2518I'm not saying that they didn't know that people were dying
2519
2520[08-May-19 01:51 PM] engelsgang#9451
2521Please address my actual argument, JJ
2522
2523[08-May-19 01:52 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
2524`Ok well you're first assuming that these massive death tolls that you read on Wikipedia are accurate`
2525
2526[08-May-19 01:52 PM] engelsgang#9451
2527This is incredibly poor and outdated history
2528
2529[08-May-19 01:52 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
2530look, it doesn't matter how many million died, the points made
2531
2532[08-May-19 01:52 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
2533for the sake of argument, whether 3 or 7 million died
2534
2535[08-May-19 01:52 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2536I mean the government was as far as to distribute propaganda portraying farmers as hoarding grain in order to justify further taking of their grain.
2537
2538[08-May-19 01:52 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
2539millions still died
2540
2541[08-May-19 01:53 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
2542ah yes, dekulakization
2543
2544[08-May-19 01:53 PM] engelsgang#9451
2545There were farmers hoarding grain, objectively
2546
2547[08-May-19 01:53 PM] engelsgang#9451
2548You're not answering my point though
2549
2550[08-May-19 01:54 PM] engelsgang#9451
2551Yeah, it's dishonest of JJ to just say "million of people died" over and over again as some gotcha when that's not the argument @CpnNevosity
2552
2553[08-May-19 01:54 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
2554no, didn't say
2555
2556[08-May-19 01:54 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
2557that
2558
2559[08-May-19 01:54 PM] engelsgang#9451
2560I know you didn't say that
2561
2562[08-May-19 01:55 PM] engelsgang#9451
2563But you were saying that the death toll isn't relevant to the subject matter of this argument and I agree
2564
2565[08-May-19 01:56 PM] engelsgang#9451
2566It's about whether or not it was intentional, which requires more nuance than "millions of people died and the government didn't correctly deal with this, it must be intentional because a government could never have disastrous failures!"
2567
2568[08-May-19 01:56 PM] engelsgang#9451
2569Even though other governments have failed to fix famines in the past
2570
2571[08-May-19 01:56 PM] engelsgang#9451
2572And that has resulted in millions of deaths in the past
2573
2574[08-May-19 01:56 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2575This is how engelsgang debates. I haven't once even said "million of people died" or even discussed the number of deaths at all. I've talked about the way the leadership handled the situation. But she has to try to change the topic, as usual, when the argument is not going her way.
2576
2577[08-May-19 01:56 PM] engelsgang#9451
2578Yes you did
2579
2580[08-May-19 01:56 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
2581JuicyJuuceToday at 12:48 PM
2582how could the government know that millions of people were starving?
2583
2584[08-May-19 01:56 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
2585Arguing about arguing
2586
2587[08-May-19 01:56 PM] engelsgang#9451
2588
2589https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/575742943365955605/Screenshot_20190508-135649.png
2590
2591[08-May-19 01:57 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
2592@engelsgang charge your phone please
2593
2594[08-May-19 01:57 PM] engelsgang#9451
2595You kept hammering on about death counts
2596
2597[08-May-19 01:57 PM] engelsgang#9451
2598No
2599
2600[08-May-19 01:57 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
2601😔
2602
2603[08-May-19 01:57 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2604Eh, that is borderline but okay. There were many more that were starving than died.
2605
2606[08-May-19 01:57 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
2607It's 2 AM?
2608
2609[08-May-19 01:57 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
2610In Murica?
2611
2612[08-May-19 01:57 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
26132pm
2614
2615[08-May-19 01:58 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
2616Some people don’t use 24 hour time 😔
2617
2618[08-May-19 01:58 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
2619
2620https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/575743280235675673/image0.png
2621
2622[08-May-19 01:58 PM] engelsgang#9451
2623JJ this is so pedantic and pointless oh my lord
2624
2625[08-May-19 01:58 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
262624 hours time is the best time
2627
2628[08-May-19 01:59 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2629yes, you don't want to talk about how they forcibly exported grain from a region that experienced far more starvation death than the areas they were exporting to.
2630
2631[08-May-19 01:59 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2632from a region that just so happened to be full of unfavorables in the eyes of Stalin.
2633
2634[08-May-19 01:59 PM] engelsgang#9451
2635I want to talk about why you conclude from that that the government was intentionally trying to kill Ukrainians
2636
2637[08-May-19 02:00 PM] engelsgang#9451
2638```from a region that just so happened to be full of unfavorables in the eyes of Stalin.``` where are you getting the idea that Stalin viewed Ukrainians as "unfavorables" from?
2639
2640[08-May-19 02:00 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2641They were rebellious? "Read a book."
2642
2643[08-May-19 02:00 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
2644something something free territory even tho all the makhnovists even fled the Ukraine or were killed during Trotsky’s war against them
2645
2646[08-May-19 02:00 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
2647They weren't though?
2648
2649[08-May-19 02:00 PM] engelsgang#9451
2650JJ
2651
2652[08-May-19 02:00 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
2653They weren’t by the time the famine happened tho
2654
2655[08-May-19 02:00 PM] engelsgang#9451
2656You haven't shown me where you got that idea
2657
2658[08-May-19 02:01 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2659So there wasn't an independence movement in Ukraine?
2660
2661[08-May-19 02:01 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
2662Something something Ukrainian Waffen-SS Divisions
2663
2664[08-May-19 02:01 PM] engelsgang#9451
2665You just made another, unsubstantiated assertion about Ukrainians
2666
2667[08-May-19 02:01 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
2668Not by the time of the famine no
2669
2670[08-May-19 02:01 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
2671There was one like 10 years prior
2672
2673[08-May-19 02:01 PM] engelsgang#9451
2674I didn't ask if there was an independence movement
2675
2676[08-May-19 02:01 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2677oh ok
2678
2679[08-May-19 02:01 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
2680Not yet
2681
2682[08-May-19 02:01 PM] engelsgang#9451
2683You changed the subject
2684
2685[08-May-19 02:01 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2686haha
2687
2688[08-May-19 02:01 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
2689But it's not a secret that they hated the Russians
2690
2691[08-May-19 02:01 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2692changed the subject from why Stalin would dislike Ukrainians to the Ukranian independence movement.
2693
2694[08-May-19 02:01 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2695lol
2696
2697[08-May-19 02:02 PM] engelsgang#9451
2698I asked where you got the idea that Stalin hated ukrainians
2699
2700[08-May-19 02:02 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2701see above
2702
2703[08-May-19 02:02 PM] engelsgang#9451
2704No, not why he did
2705
2706[08-May-19 02:02 PM] engelsgang#9451
2707How you know that he did
2708
2709[08-May-19 02:02 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
2710Whether there was an independence movement or not it wasn't a threat to stalin
2711
2712[08-May-19 02:02 PM] ĞØĐ Graves#3101
2713@Rest_In_XXXNightmare_Death
2714
2715[08-May-19 02:02 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2716I don't know the interior thoughts of Joseph Stalin.
2717
2718[08-May-19 02:02 PM] engelsgang#9451
2719You're changing the subject without even realizing it, it seems
2720
2721[08-May-19 02:02 PM] Rest_In_XXXNightmare_Death#2085
2722@ĞØĐ Graves
2723
2724[08-May-19 02:02 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
2725@Leftcom Stalin
2726
2727[08-May-19 02:02 PM] ĞØĐ Graves#3101
2728listen here
2729
2730[08-May-19 02:02 PM] engelsgang#9451
2731Well you apparently do well enough to claim that he viewed Ukrainians as "unfavorables"
2732
2733[08-May-19 02:03 PM] Rest_In_XXXNightmare_Death#2085
2734you little shit
2735
2736[08-May-19 02:03 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2737And you don't see how a Ukranian independence movement might cause him to view them that way?
2738
2739[08-May-19 02:03 PM] engelsgang#9451
2740That's, again, not what I asked
2741
2742[08-May-19 02:03 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2743it is
2744
2745[08-May-19 02:03 PM] engelsgang#9451
2746I asked what indication there is that he hated Ukrainians
2747
2748[08-May-19 02:03 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
2749Why would he blame the entire region for a minority movement?
2750
2751[08-May-19 02:03 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2752hahahaa
2753
2754[08-May-19 02:03 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2755this is great
2756
2757[08-May-19 02:03 PM] engelsgang#9451
2758If you read what I wrote
2759
2760[08-May-19 02:03 PM] engelsgang#9451
2761Now
2762
2763[08-May-19 02:04 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2764you're the best, engels
2765
2766[08-May-19 02:04 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
2767:thebigsad:
2768
2769[08-May-19 02:04 PM] engelsgang#9451
2770Can you show me where you read that Stalin viewed Ukrainians as "unfavorables"?
2771
2772[08-May-19 02:04 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
2773"I only 'defend stalin' in that i argue against frivolous or meaningless claims like the famine of 1932-33 being deliberately engineered or the concept of "totalitarianism"
2774I think he perpetrated colonialism in Siberia and he was overall not a very good Marxist" Congratulations, the NKVD has arrested you, try again next life.
2775
2776[08-May-19 02:04 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
2777JJ doesn't need evidence
2778
2779[08-May-19 02:04 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
2780@CpnNevosity nice copypasta
2781
2782[08-May-19 02:04 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2783you're right comrades, it doesn't make any sense at all for Stalin to want to starve a rebellious people. Nothing to see here folks!
2784
2785[08-May-19 02:04 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
2786"I only 'defend stalin' in that i argue against frivolous or meaningless claims like the famine of 1932-33 being deliberately engineered or the concept of "totalitarianism"
2787I think he perpetrated colonialism in Siberia and he was overall not a very good Marxist" Congratulations, the NKVD has arrested you, try again next life.
2788
2789[08-May-19 02:05 PM] engelsgang#9451
2790Again
2791
2792[08-May-19 02:05 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2793again
2794
2795[08-May-19 02:05 PM] engelsgang#9451
2796How were they "rebellious"?
2797
2798[08-May-19 02:05 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
2799Except there wasn't a significant "rebellion" going on.
2800
2801[08-May-19 02:05 PM] engelsgang#9451
2802Please actually show me where you're reading this shit
2803
2804[08-May-19 02:05 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2805https://www.dictionary.com/browse/rebellious
2806
2807[08-May-19 02:05 PM] engelsgang#9451
2808Instead of being condescending
2809
2810[08-May-19 02:05 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
2811What
2812
2813[08-May-19 02:05 PM] engelsgang#9451
2814No, where are you reading that Ukraine was "rebelling"?
2815
2816[08-May-19 02:05 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2817*an independence movement is not a sign of rebelliousness*
2818
2819[08-May-19 02:05 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
2820They didn’t have one
2821
2822[08-May-19 02:06 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
2823At that time
2824
2825[08-May-19 02:06 PM] engelsgang#9451
2826What independence movement are you referring to?
2827
2828[08-May-19 02:06 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
2829If stalin was trying to starve the Ukrainians why did the famine affect areas outside the Ukraine?
2830
2831[08-May-19 02:06 PM] engelsgang#9451
2832@新世紀Orby that won't stop JJ
2833
2834[08-May-19 02:06 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
2835:platformist:
2836
2837[08-May-19 02:06 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
2838:platformist:
2839
2840[08-May-19 02:06 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
2841Makhnovist peter is quite disturbed
2842
2843[08-May-19 02:07 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2844@Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism it didn't affect other areas nearly as much as it did ukranians (and kazaks)
2845
2846[08-May-19 02:08 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
2847Because the Ukrainians heavily relies on agriculture
2848
2849[08-May-19 02:08 PM] engelsgang#9451
2850No, it affected Kazakhs (you forgot the H) much more than Ukrainians
2851
2852[08-May-19 02:08 PM] Rest_In_XXXNightmare_Death#2085
2853I guess holodomor never happened
2854
2855[08-May-19 02:08 PM] Rest_In_XXXNightmare_Death#2085
2856:thebigsad:
2857
2858[08-May-19 02:08 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
2859As well as the Kazakhs
2860
2861[08-May-19 02:08 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
2862Also I can show you a map produced by Harvard uni of Ukraine at the time and where there where famine deaths and what nationality the people of that area where and there where actually less famine deaths in areas with more ukrainians
2863
2864[08-May-19 02:08 PM] engelsgang#9451
2865No one said that
2866
2867[08-May-19 02:08 PM] engelsgang#9451
2868@Rest_In_XXXNightmare_Death
2869
2870[08-May-19 02:08 PM] Rest_In_XXXNightmare_Death#2085
2871Then what are you arguing?
2872
2873[08-May-19 02:09 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
2874That it wasn’t intentional
2875
2876[08-May-19 02:09 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
2877Famine deaths weren't correlated to ethnicity at all.
2878
2879[08-May-19 02:09 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
2880Just mismanaged by the Soviets
2881
2882[08-May-19 02:09 PM] Rest_In_XXXNightmare_Death#2085
2883LOL
2884
2885[08-May-19 02:09 PM] Rest_In_XXXNightmare_Death#2085
2886wow
2887
2888[08-May-19 02:09 PM] engelsgang#9451
2889The famine was a result of a combination of government mismanagement + environmental factors rather than being intentionally engineered
2890
2891[08-May-19 02:09 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
2892:thebigsad:
2893
2894[08-May-19 02:09 PM] Rest_In_XXXNightmare_Death#2085
2895I didn't know you guys humped Stalin's leg this hard
2896
2897[08-May-19 02:09 PM] engelsgang#9451
2898I dont
2899
2900[08-May-19 02:09 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
2901I don’t
2902
2903[08-May-19 02:10 PM] engelsgang#9451
2904Stalin was meh at best
2905
2906[08-May-19 02:10 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
2907I don’t care about Stalin
2908
2909[08-May-19 02:10 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
2910
2911https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/575746374797099024/Stalin_in_July_1941.jpg
2912
2913[08-May-19 02:10 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
2914Also how is us blaming Stalin’s  government for how they handled it, “humping Stalin”
2915
2916[08-May-19 02:10 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
2917Oh wrong time
2918
2919[08-May-19 02:10 PM] engelsgang#9451
2920But the claim that the 32-33 famine was deliberate is outdated and incorrect historiography
2921
2922[08-May-19 02:10 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
2923*fascist propoganda
2924
2925[08-May-19 02:11 PM] engelsgang#9451
2926Uhhhhhh
2927
2928[08-May-19 02:11 PM] engelsgang#9451
2929🤷
2930
2931[08-May-19 02:12 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
2932The idea was spread by right wing press barons and fascists during the late 30ies and 40ies.
2933
2934[08-May-19 02:13 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
2935
2936https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/575747018022977579/image0.jpg
2937
2938[08-May-19 02:13 PM] engelsgang#9451
2939Yeah, but I normally like to depoliticize this argument as much as possible because it completely takes the wind out of the sails of liberals
2940
2941[08-May-19 02:23 PM] engelsgang#9451
2942🤡
2943
2944[08-May-19 02:23 PM] engelsgang#9451
2945I saw that JJ
2946
2947[08-May-19 02:23 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2948@新世紀Orby *How could the government know without highspeed telecoms?*
2949https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/575749512161787914/unknown.png
2950
2951[08-May-19 02:23 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2952<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial_of_the_Holodomor>
2953
2954[08-May-19 02:23 PM] engelsgang#9451
2955LMFAO
2956
2957[08-May-19 02:23 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2958read the quotes, chuckles
2959
2960[08-May-19 02:24 PM] engelsgang#9451
2961Please read modern historiography about the famine rather than reading wikipedia.
2962
2963[08-May-19 02:24 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2964Please avoid addressing your absurd claim that the government might not have known what was going on.
2965
2966[08-May-19 02:25 PM] engelsgang#9451
2967I didn't argue that they didn't know there was a famine
2968
2969[08-May-19 02:25 PM] engelsgang#9451
2970I argued that they didn't realize the extent of the agricultural failure
2971
2972[08-May-19 02:26 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2973Right
2974
2975[08-May-19 02:26 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
2976There is evidence the govt was being lied to by subordinates about what was happening
2977
2978[08-May-19 02:26 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2979Helps to "not know" when you are undertaking an aggressive propaganda campaign to suppress information.
2980
2981[08-May-19 02:26 PM] engelsgang#9451
2982And you didn't post any work of history or any document to prove me wrong
2983
2984[08-May-19 02:26 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2985Just communist things 🤷
2986
2987[08-May-19 02:26 PM] engelsgang#9451
2988You posted a wikipedia screenshot
2989
2990[08-May-19 02:26 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
2991A well sourced one
2992
2993[08-May-19 02:26 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
2994Just strawman things
2995
2996[08-May-19 02:26 PM] engelsgang#9451
2997Then post the sources
2998
2999[08-May-19 02:27 PM] engelsgang#9451
3000Or at least look at them first
3001
3002[08-May-19 02:27 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3003I'm sure in 2019 you know how to click links.
3004
3005[08-May-19 02:27 PM] engelsgang#9451
3006I'm on mobile
3007
3008[08-May-19 02:27 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3009Sorry then.
3010
3011[08-May-19 02:27 PM] engelsgang#9451
3012Why didn't you do that in the first place?
3013
3014[08-May-19 02:27 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3015Life is tough. Tapping is hard.
3016
3017[08-May-19 02:27 PM] engelsgang#9451
3018Instead of relying on a website that anyone can edit?
3019
3020[08-May-19 02:27 PM] engelsgang#9451
3021Clearly it's hard enough for you to avoid just linking the sources.
3022
3023[08-May-19 02:28 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
3024It’s 2019 why can you just share links to the sources for an article you already have open
3025
3026[08-May-19 02:28 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
3027🤡
3028
3029[08-May-19 02:29 PM] engelsgang#9451
3030Ok the first source in your screenshot is a book by Robert Conquest.
3031
3032[08-May-19 02:29 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3033Because a summary of information with links to much more expansive sources for the skeptical is far more conducive to a conversation. Linking you hundreds of pages of source material is doesn't get the overall point across as well as the summary.
3034
3035[08-May-19 02:29 PM] engelsgang#9451
3036Conquest's work on this topic has been criticized in the book that I linked you earlier, years of hunger.
3037
3038[08-May-19 02:30 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3039okay
3040
3041[08-May-19 02:30 PM] engelsgang#9451
3042Ok 6, 14,12, and 13 are all Robert Conquest
3043
3044[08-May-19 02:30 PM] engelsgang#9451
3045Lmao
3046
3047[08-May-19 02:30 PM] engelsgang#9451
3048That was easy
3049
3050[08-May-19 02:30 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
3051Robert Conquest has admitted that he was being paid by mi6
3052
3053[08-May-19 02:30 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3054case closed, someone criticized him
3055
3056[08-May-19 02:30 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
3057🤡
3058
3059[08-May-19 02:31 PM] engelsgang#9451
3060Well you see
3061
3062[08-May-19 02:32 PM] engelsgang#9451
3063You would be able to evaluate how valid Conquest's narrative about the famine is if you read the book I posted earlier
3064
3065[08-May-19 02:32 PM] engelsgang#9451
3066Rather than relying on Wikipedia
3067
3068[08-May-19 02:32 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3069have you read it?
3070
3071[08-May-19 02:32 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
3072Why read when I can copy paste arguments from yahoo answers
3073
3074[08-May-19 02:33 PM] engelsgang#9451
3075Yes, I have
3076
3077[08-May-19 02:33 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3078then can you quote the relevant portion?
3079
3080[08-May-19 02:33 PM] engelsgang#9451
3081No, it's several hundred pages long, and again, I'm on mobile
3082
3083[08-May-19 02:33 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3084Okay so your argument is that your point is made somewhere in that 500 pages
3085
3086[08-May-19 02:33 PM] engelsgang#9451
3087And like almost the entire book is relevant
3088
3089[08-May-19 02:34 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
3090Reading about a topic is bad 🤡
3091
3092[08-May-19 02:34 PM] engelsgang#9451
3093Not somewhere, everywhere
3094
3095[08-May-19 02:34 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3096Well when you get to a keyboard, please provide the relevant passage.
3097
3098[08-May-19 02:34 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
3099🤡
3100
3101[08-May-19 02:35 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3102Yes orby, use the clown for me holding her to the same standard that her high school english teacher would have held her to. page numbers please.
3103
3104Try to be above this, Orby.
3105
3106[08-May-19 02:35 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
3107@engelsgang just copy and paste the entire book into chat please
3108
3109[08-May-19 02:35 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
3110the proletariat should be liquidated
3111
3112[08-May-19 02:35 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
3113Good thing this isn’t high school English class
3114
3115[08-May-19 02:35 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3116Or any other english class you will take at any education level
3117
3118[08-May-19 02:35 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3119in academia
3120
3121[08-May-19 02:35 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3122or otherwise
3123
3124[08-May-19 02:35 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3125lol
3126
3127[08-May-19 02:35 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
3128Good thing this isn’t English class
3129
3130[08-May-19 02:36 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
3131At all
3132
3133[08-May-19 02:36 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3134Great, excellent point.
3135
3136[08-May-19 02:36 PM] engelsgang#9451
3137I didn't make a specific claim to cite with a page number
3138
3139[08-May-19 02:36 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3140Makes it easy that way I guess.
3141
3142[08-May-19 02:36 PM] engelsgang#9451
3143I just said that I already posted a critique of the sources that you indirectly used
3144
3145[08-May-19 02:36 PM] engelsgang#9451
3146@CpnNevosity I agree
3147
3148[08-May-19 02:36 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3149*Here is a book that proves me right but I have nothing solid to say that it defends*
3150
3151[08-May-19 02:36 PM] engelsgang#9451
3152Self-abolition time
3153
3154[08-May-19 02:37 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
3155Liquidate all the classes tbh
3156
3157[08-May-19 02:37 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
3158classicide
3159
3160[08-May-19 02:37 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
3161No
3162
3163[08-May-19 02:37 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
3164Yes
3165
3166[08-May-19 02:37 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
3167Just class abolition
3168
3169[08-May-19 02:38 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
3170Vengeance on part of the kulaks
3171
3172[08-May-19 02:38 PM] engelsgang#9451
3173I mean I could pull out specific quotes if I was at home on my computer, but I'm not
3174
3175[08-May-19 02:38 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
3176https://www.lrb.co.uk/v09/n02/j-arch-getty/starving-the-ukraine here is.a response to conquest by getty you have to register though
3177
3178[08-May-19 02:38 PM] engelsgang#9451
3179If you want to continue this later when I can do that, I'm willing to @JuicyJuuce
3180
3181[08-May-19 02:39 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3182okay
3183
3184[08-May-19 02:39 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
3185Liquidation is the only solution
3186
3187[08-May-19 02:40 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
3188And the Russian proles shall have it worst
3189
3190[08-May-19 02:40 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
3191They shall pay for the sins of the father
3192
3193[08-May-19 02:40 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
3194Kill all the workers
3195
3196[08-May-19 02:40 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
3197Yup
3198
3199[08-May-19 02:40 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
3200That’ll go over well for the ruling class
3201
3202[08-May-19 02:40 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
3203Totally
3204
3205[08-May-19 02:41 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
3206Nope
3207
3208[08-May-19 02:41 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
3209We automte
3210
3211[08-May-19 02:41 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
3212Weird how they need workers, but workers don’t need them
3213
3214[08-May-19 02:41 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
3215Who’s gonna build the robots after you kill all the workers
3216
3217[08-May-19 02:41 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
3218Who’s gonna fix them
3219
3220[08-May-19 02:41 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
3221We wont have to
3222
3223[08-May-19 02:41 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
3224They will be too advanced to need fixing
3225
3226[08-May-19 02:42 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
3227Extinction via automation
3228
3229[08-May-19 02:42 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
3230Good meme lol
3231
3232[08-May-19 02:42 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
3233Agree?
3234
3235[08-May-19 02:42 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
3236Mass genocide of the human race
3237
3238[08-May-19 02:42 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
3239Good times
3240
3241[08-May-19 02:42 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
3242I can wait for the destruction of humanity
3243
3244[08-May-19 02:43 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
3245Save the earth, kill yourself
3246
3247[08-May-19 02:43 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
3248Hol up
3249
3250[08-May-19 02:53 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
3251
3252https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/575757149225877515/unknown.png
3253
3254[08-May-19 02:54 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
3255
3256https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/575757293296156673/unknown.png
3257
3258[08-May-19 02:56 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
3259@JuicyJuuce  do you disagree with this?
3260
3261[08-May-19 02:56 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3262What is this from?
3263
3264[08-May-19 02:57 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
3265getty's response to conquest's book https://www.lrb.co.uk/v09/n02/j-arch-getty/starving-the-ukraine
3266
3267[08-May-19 03:01 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3268I mean the author is making a case. I don't think the second part about Stalin not having complete control adds much. Sure, he needed more buy-in from others than he did later after he consolidated power.
3269
3270The first screenshot says the famine might not have been as high as 5 million. Lower estimates seem to be around 3 million. Doesn't seem like a strong point to me. And then the author says that some parts of Ukraine were affected more than others. Again, not much substance towards their case there.
3271
3272[08-May-19 03:04 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
3273read the rest of the article it's not that long
3274
3275[08-May-19 03:04 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3276<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_nationalism>
3277
3278[08-May-19 03:04 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3279
3280https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/575759906817441796/unknown.png
3281
3282[08-May-19 03:06 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
3283how is this evidense of an engineered famine?
3284
3285[08-May-19 03:07 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3286You guys were questioning whether Stalin had reason to persecute Ukranians.
3287
3288[08-May-19 03:08 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3289
3290https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/575760919993516047/unknown.png
3291
3292[08-May-19 03:08 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3293some things never change 😃
3294
3295[08-May-19 03:09 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
3296what does that have to do with the ukraine?
3297
3298[08-May-19 03:10 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
3299you know collectivisation and the famine happened in russia too
3300
3301[08-May-19 03:10 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
3302Oah you're still debating
3303
3304[08-May-19 03:10 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3305The last screenshot, nothing. Just stuck out to me the "enthusiastic, determined, and inflexible" description of zealous communist youth.
3306
3307[08-May-19 03:12 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3308The larger has to do with Ukraine because it is discussing Ukranian nationalism... in conflict with a centralized Soviet identity.
3309
3310[08-May-19 03:12 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
3311yes but the famine wasn't spmething that affected specific national groups.
3312
3313[08-May-19 03:12 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3314Hence Stalin's "Ukranian bourgeois nationalism" statement.
3315
3316[08-May-19 03:13 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
3317if that was the intention behind the famine then you would see that reflected in the quotas for areas that had russian vs ukrainian populations
3318
3319[08-May-19 03:13 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3320Seems to affect Ukraine overall all more than other Soviet regions. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/90/Ukraine_famine_map.png
3321
3322[08-May-19 03:14 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
3323But also the Caucasus
3324
3325[08-May-19 03:14 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
3326And Kazakhstan
3327
3328[08-May-19 03:15 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
3329http://gis.huri.harvard.edu/historical-atlas/the-great-famine/famine-web-map.html
3330
3331[08-May-19 03:15 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
3332here is an interactice map produced by harvard
3333
3334[08-May-19 03:15 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3335the Kazaks, more unfavorables.
3336
3337[08-May-19 03:15 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
3338Also the great Steppe was affected
3339
3340[08-May-19 03:15 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
3341Tadjikistan, Uzbekistan
3342
3343[08-May-19 03:16 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
3344The great Steppe was the granary of the USSR
3345
3346[08-May-19 03:16 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3347Yet somehow they starved the worse 🤔
3348
3349[08-May-19 03:17 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
3350Because the Soviet Union miscalculated the distribution of the grain
3351
3352[08-May-19 03:17 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3353In a way that just so happen to hit unfavorable populations the hardest.
3354
3355[08-May-19 03:17 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
3356Tadjikistan and Uzbekistan weren't affected that much because they have slow population density
3357
3358[08-May-19 03:18 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
3359How can you deny that it wasn't coincidence?
3360
3361[08-May-19 03:18 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
3362Wait
3363
3364[08-May-19 03:18 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
3365I need to rethink the sentence😂
3366
3367[08-May-19 03:18 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3368Because there was an aggressive campaign by the Soviets to suppress information about starvation.
3369
3370[08-May-19 03:19 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3371Let me finish reading tsar's article
3372
3373[08-May-19 03:19 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
3374Oh I didn't know you were reading sorry
3375
3376[08-May-19 03:20 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
3377Which country would btw publish information about starvation in their own country
3378
3379[08-May-19 03:22 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3380So we've moved from denying that the government knew to justifying their active suppression of the information. This is getting boring.
3381
3382[08-May-19 03:22 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
3383I'll get myself a beer
3384
3385[08-May-19 03:22 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
3386You guided us into this direction
3387
3388[08-May-19 03:22 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
3389Not our fault
3390
3391[08-May-19 03:23 PM] engelsgang#9451
3392@JuicyJuuce I'm curious as to why you're interested in me meeting the requirements of a high school English teacher by giving you page numbers when you happily base your claims on Wikipedia screenshots
3393
3394[08-May-19 03:23 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3395weak
3396
3397[08-May-19 03:24 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
3398Prediction: this argument will end in a debate about credibility of sources
3399
3400[08-May-19 03:24 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3401I'll put it this way, if you are just going to throw out 500 page books out there and can't be bothered to point to the page that supports your view then you aren't worth interacting with.
3402
3403[08-May-19 03:24 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
3404Here we go
3405
3406[08-May-19 03:24 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
3407I'm out
3408
3409[08-May-19 03:25 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3410I need to just block engels.
3411
3412[08-May-19 03:26 PM] Rest_In_XXXNightmare_Death#2085
3413its funny when they do that
3414
3415[08-May-19 03:27 PM] Rest_In_XXXNightmare_Death#2085
3416like wtf im not going to read a whole book on the spot
3417
3418[08-May-19 03:27 PM] engelsgang#9451
3419Also, the wikipedia section you posted doesn't have a single citation
3420
3421[08-May-19 03:28 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3422True, I can look for a better source for that.
3423
3424[08-May-19 03:28 PM] engelsgang#9451
3425Also I don't expect you to read the whole book on the spot
3426
3427[08-May-19 03:28 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3428Just that we spend hours of our time reading something that you just vaguely claim supports your case.
3429
3430[08-May-19 03:29 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3431Just so that you can switch the topic again if we highlight when it fails to support your point.
3432
3433[08-May-19 03:30 PM] engelsgang#9451
3434And it's not that I "can't be bothered to show you quotes", I will later
3435
3436[08-May-19 03:30 PM] engelsgang#9451
3437And I'm not changing the topic at all
3438
3439[08-May-19 03:30 PM] ĞØĐ Graves#3101
3440ye
3441
3442[08-May-19 03:30 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3443Yet you keep making the argument that you don't need to show specific page numbers. 🤔
3444
3445[08-May-19 03:30 PM] engelsgang#9451
3446I've consistently been talking about evidence that the famine was created intentionally
3447
3448[08-May-19 03:31 PM] ĞØĐ Graves#3101
3449i ike reading pointless books to get the upper hand in a pointless discord argument
3450
3451[08-May-19 03:31 PM] ĞØĐ Graves#3101
3452that will probably be forgotten by the time i finish reading the book
3453
3454[08-May-19 03:31 PM] engelsgang#9451
3455Well you only need to read the introduction to see that it's about criticizing the narrative that the famine was intentional
3456
3457[08-May-19 03:33 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3458I will say that there is a spectrum of intentionality that ranges from fully planned and engineered from the outset to coldheartedly ignoring the problems of unfavorables when they arise.
3459
3460[08-May-19 03:33 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
3461the crisis wasn't targeted at unfavourables though?
3462
3463[08-May-19 03:33 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
3464it affected Russians too.
3465
3466[08-May-19 03:33 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3467Not nearly as much
3468
3469[08-May-19 03:34 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3470And when Ukranians are starving its okay and keep exporting their food because we don't like them anyway.
3471
3472[08-May-19 03:34 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
3473the areas that where affected the most where the areas with the most arable land and rural opulations
3474
3475[08-May-19 03:34 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3476And silence the information
3477
3478[08-May-19 03:34 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3479seems to be a point towards my argument, not yours.
3480
3481[08-May-19 03:35 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
3482ofc a famine will affect the areas with the most arable land like kazackstan and ukraine
3483
3484[08-May-19 03:35 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3485ehh
3486
3487[08-May-19 03:35 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3488not really
3489
3490[08-May-19 03:35 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3491should be the opposite
3492
3493[08-May-19 03:36 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3494places without arable land depend on imports from places with arable land
3495
3496[08-May-19 03:37 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
3497the more food a region producces the more it is affected by famines.
3498
3499[08-May-19 03:37 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3500um
3501
3502[08-May-19 03:37 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3503If your region doesn't produce food then you need food from the regions that do
3504
3505[08-May-19 03:38 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3506If the regions that produce food are starving more than the regions who don't then something shady is going on
3507
3508[08-May-19 03:38 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3509Like forcing an unreasonable level of export
3510
3511[08-May-19 03:38 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
3512the urban areas have maufactured goods to trade for food whereas the rural areas don't have anything if their crops fail
3513
3514[08-May-19 03:38 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3515lol
3516
3517[08-May-19 03:39 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3518what are they trading manufactor goods for? crops, no?
3519
3520[08-May-19 03:39 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3521They going to trade a car for a non-existent bag of potatos?
3522
3523[08-May-19 03:40 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3524You think a farmer that is starving to death is going to trade away his corn for a manufactured good? This doesn't make *any* sense.
3525
3526[08-May-19 03:40 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
3527there was still food in the country
3528
3529[08-May-19 03:40 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
3530some parts of the country where hardly affected by the famine
3531
3532[08-May-19 03:40 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3533Oh really?
3534
3535[08-May-19 03:40 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
3536the famine was caused in part by a drought
3537
3538[08-May-19 03:40 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
3539not the whole country was affected
3540
3541[08-May-19 03:40 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3542We are talking about the areas that had major crop failures
3543
3544[08-May-19 03:40 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
3545yes
3546
3547[08-May-19 03:41 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3548this is nonsense, I'm going back to reading.
3549
3550[08-May-19 03:41 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
3551there where large crop failures in bulgaria at the time too
3552
3553[08-May-19 03:41 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3554You are meandering and lost.
3555
3556[08-May-19 03:41 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
3557you provide no evidence for anything you say
3558
3559[08-May-19 03:41 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3560great
3561
3562[08-May-19 03:42 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
3563war
3564
3565[08-May-19 03:42 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3566you know food comes from farmers, right? So how do farmers starve to death while urban workers starve much much less?
3567
3568[08-May-19 03:43 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3569Maybe, just maybe, they are being *forced* to give up more food than is reasonable?
3570
3571[08-May-19 03:43 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
3572because there where still some farmers producing surplus grain
3573
3574[08-May-19 03:43 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3575um
3576
3577[08-May-19 03:43 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3578so about the ones that starved to death
3579
3580[08-May-19 03:44 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
3581yeas the govt tried to mediate the famines and lowered quotas released some reserves etc
3582
3583[08-May-19 03:44 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3584hahaha
3585
3586[08-May-19 03:44 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
3587it was a famine people died it was bad. it wasn't a genocide.
3588
3589[08-May-19 03:44 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3590instead of an aggressive propaganda campaign to suppress information about the starvation of political unfavorables
3591
3592[08-May-19 03:46 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
3593It's quiet
3594
3595[08-May-19 03:46 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
3596
3597https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/575770619447214080/unknown.png
3598
3599[08-May-19 03:47 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3600okay?
3601
3602[08-May-19 03:48 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
3603okay stalin didn't commit genocide
3604
3605[08-May-19 03:49 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3606So they fucked up the agricultural industry with collectivization, brutally enforced rules that fed political favorables over unfavorables when shortages arose, and then afterwise tried to clean it up
3607
3608[08-May-19 03:49 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
3609i think the point is that Ukraine wasn't deliberately starved for political reasons or otherwise but that Stalin and the Russians were trying to prevent a nationwide famine by consolidating grain. am I understanding this correctly @Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism
3610
3611[08-May-19 03:50 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
3612purely going off of what you posted btw
3613
3614[08-May-19 03:50 PM] engelsgang#9451
3615Where are you getting this "favorable"/"unfavorable" thing from?
3616
3617[08-May-19 03:50 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3618@Admiruwu_Mwunsun Why do you have the libertarian role instead of socialist?
3619
3620[08-May-19 03:50 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
3621@JuicyJuuce because im strange
3622
3623[08-May-19 03:50 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
3624Dr. Strange
3625
3626[08-May-19 03:50 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
3627*
3628
3629[08-May-19 03:50 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
3630uwu
3631
3632[08-May-19 03:50 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
3633OwO
3634
3635[08-May-19 03:50 PM] covfefe2020#7724
3636I knew it
3637
3638[08-May-19 03:50 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3639fixed
3640
3641[08-May-19 03:50 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
3642Oh damn
3643
3644[08-May-19 03:51 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
3645He communized Admiral_Munson
3646
3647[08-May-19 03:52 PM] covfefe2020#7724
3648Radicalized
3649
3650[08-May-19 03:52 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
3651why would stalin a georgian and the rest of the soviet leadeership who where a diverse group from all over the union view russian lives as more favourable than those from the border regions?
3652
3653[08-May-19 03:52 PM] engelsgang#9451
3654uhhhhh
3655
3656[08-May-19 03:52 PM] engelsgang#9451
3657Ask the Koreans in 1937
3658
3659[08-May-19 03:52 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3660@新世紀Orby Why are you setting @Admiruwu_Mwunsun 's role to libertarian?
3661
3662[08-May-19 03:52 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
3663He is one
3664
3665[08-May-19 03:52 PM] covfefe2020#7724
3666No he isn’t
3667
3668[08-May-19 03:52 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
3669He is one
3670
3671[08-May-19 03:52 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
3672Oftenly
3673
3674[08-May-19 03:53 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
3675He told me he was
3676
3677[08-May-19 03:53 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3678...
3679
3680[08-May-19 03:53 PM] covfefe2020#7724
3681He said he has he role because he likes being strange
3682
3683[08-May-19 03:53 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
3684So he's a libertarian
3685
3686[08-May-19 03:53 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
3687Fits
3688
3689[08-May-19 03:53 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3690He also is adamantly socialist.
3691
3692[08-May-19 03:53 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
3693Yea
3694
3695[08-May-19 03:53 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
3696How do you know
3697
3698[08-May-19 03:53 PM] covfefe2020#7724
3699He doesn’t sound like a libertarian
3700
3701[08-May-19 03:54 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
3702Can we agree on social libertarian?
3703
3704[08-May-19 03:54 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
3705that would be accurate
3706
3707[08-May-19 03:54 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3708He is memeing as a libertarian.
3709
3710[08-May-19 03:54 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
3711Well libertarians are a meme
3712
3713[08-May-19 03:54 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
3714So I don't see the difficulty here
3715
3716[08-May-19 03:55 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
3717True tbh
3718
3719[08-May-19 03:55 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
3720Anyway, seems like more of a question for @clukurduk if he wants to allow meme roles or not. Admiral_Munson expresses devout socialist views on two discords that I've seem him on, and honestly you know that @新世紀Orby
3721
3722[08-May-19 03:56 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
3723am i being **exposed**? 🤔
3724
3725[08-May-19 03:56 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
3726No
3727
3728[08-May-19 03:56 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
3729I’ve never met this guy before
3730
3731[08-May-19 03:56 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
3732I don't know him too
3733
3734[08-May-19 03:57 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
3735who is Admiral_Munson
3736
3737[08-May-19 03:57 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
3738I just know Admiruwu_Mwunson
3739
3740[08-May-19 03:57 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
3741dude same
3742
3743[08-May-19 03:57 PM] engelsgang#9451
3744JJ be like
3745
3746[08-May-19 03:57 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
3747why do the libertarians get their own faction but we can;t have a posadist faction?
3748
3749[08-May-19 03:58 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
3750@Admiruwu_Mwunsun He used to be cute
3751
3752[08-May-19 03:58 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
3753Libertarians are just rebellious teenagers who hate their republican parents
3754
3755[08-May-19 03:58 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
3756Or communist
3757
3758[08-May-19 03:58 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
3759Parents
3760
3761[08-May-19 03:58 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
3762my dad is a socialist and i told him to go fuck himself
3763
3764[08-May-19 03:58 PM] engelsgang#9451
3765Brave
3766
3767[08-May-19 03:59 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
3768And what did he do?
3769
3770[08-May-19 03:59 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
3771ikr someone had to take a stand for property rights
3772
3773[08-May-19 03:59 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
3774I would send you to the Ukraine for that
3775
3776[08-May-19 03:59 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
3777As we all know the Ukraine is starving until today, but because of Neo Fascists in the government
3778
3779[08-May-19 03:59 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
3780didn't a secret marxist get elected tho
3781
3782[08-May-19 04:00 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
3783He had the Trait "secret communist" which gives +0.10 daily communism influence
3784
3785[08-May-19 04:00 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
3786yes. exactly
3787
3788[08-May-19 04:00 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
3789restoring the People's Republic of Ukraine
3790
3791[08-May-19 04:01 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
3792And then rejoining the new USSR
3793
3794[08-May-19 04:01 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
3795https://twitter.com/benshapiro/status/1126195703112331264
3796
3797[08-May-19 04:01 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
3798ben thinking he was a virgin because he chose not to fuck rather than literally no one wanting to fuck him
3799
3800[08-May-19 04:01 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
3801adorable
3802
3803[08-May-19 04:02 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
3804ben Shapiro isn't a virgin anymore the most shocking thing about that tweet
3805
3806[08-May-19 04:03 PM] covfefe2020#7724
3807thank you for that Munson
3808
3809[08-May-19 04:03 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
3810Well
3811
3812[08-May-19 04:03 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
3813What
3814
3815[08-May-19 04:03 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
3816The funny thing is that he says it's a moral standard
3817
3818[08-May-19 04:03 PM] covfefe2020#7724
3819Why is everyone so shocked by someone not having sex
3820
3821[08-May-19 04:03 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
3822He has a wife and kids apparently
3823
3824[08-May-19 04:03 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
3825poor kids
3826
3827[08-May-19 04:03 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
3828Feel bad for his kids
3829
3830[08-May-19 04:03 PM] covfefe2020#7724
3831His wife is a doctor
3832
3833[08-May-19 04:04 PM] covfefe2020#7724
3834Yeah he hates his kids
3835
3836[08-May-19 04:04 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
3837His sister’s nudes are on the internet
3838
3839[08-May-19 04:04 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
3840🤔
3841
3842[08-May-19 04:04 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
3843What
3844
3845[08-May-19 04:04 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
3846i mean is she hot
3847
3848[08-May-19 04:04 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
3849Do I want to see them
3850
3851[08-May-19 04:04 PM] covfefe2020#7724
3852Spends all day teaching them evil Jew magic and how to kill Palestinian children
3853
3854[08-May-19 04:04 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
3855She’s cute
3856
3857[08-May-19 04:04 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
3858Okay I want to see them
3859
3860[08-May-19 04:04 PM] covfefe2020#7724
3861How the frick would you find that out
3862
3863[08-May-19 04:04 PM] covfefe2020#7724
3864How the F R I C C
3865
3866[08-May-19 04:04 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
3867It was big news for a bit
3868
3869[08-May-19 04:04 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
3870imagine being older than 12
3871
3872[08-May-19 04:05 PM] covfefe2020#7724
3873
3874https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/575775209408430080/image0.jpg
3875
3876[08-May-19 04:05 PM] covfefe2020#7724
3877@Admiruwu_Mwunsun ok what now
3878
3879[08-May-19 04:05 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
3880Ehm
3881
3882[08-May-19 04:05 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
3883God doesn’t do any work
3884
3885[08-May-19 04:05 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
3886Because it’s not real
3887
3888[08-May-19 04:05 PM] covfefe2020#7724
3889Thank you for that atheist
3890
3891[08-May-19 04:05 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
3892i asked God to do my homework and it didnt happen. God disproved
3893
3894[08-May-19 04:05 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
3895I’m not an atheist
3896
3897[08-May-19 04:05 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
3898:honk:
3899
3900[08-May-19 04:05 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
3901I believe in Allah
3902
3903[08-May-19 04:05 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
3904I follow the religion of Happy Science
3905
3906[08-May-19 04:06 PM] covfefe2020#7724
3907If god reel why bad tings happen???
3908
3909[08-May-19 04:06 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
3910i mean
3911
3912[08-May-19 04:06 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
3913its true
3914
3915[08-May-19 04:06 PM] covfefe2020#7724
3916Happy science sounds like a drug
3917
3918[08-May-19 04:06 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
3919God flooded the entire earth and killed everyone because they lost their way
3920
3921[08-May-19 04:06 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
3922Can’t wait for that to happen again
3923
3924[08-May-19 04:06 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
3925XD
3926
3927[08-May-19 04:06 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
3928But this time it’s just global warming
3929
3930[08-May-19 04:06 PM] covfefe2020#7724
3931Except for the part where he said it would never happen again
3932
3933[08-May-19 04:06 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
3934God can lie
3935
3936[08-May-19 04:06 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
3937can God flood the places where white people live
3938
3939[08-May-19 04:07 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
3940Also global warming is gonna flood the earth
3941
3942[08-May-19 04:07 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
3943So
3944
3945[08-May-19 04:07 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
3946It will happen again
3947
3948[08-May-19 04:07 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
3949Just not because of god
3950
3951[08-May-19 04:07 PM] covfefe2020#7724
3952I already had this conversation today
3953
3954[08-May-19 04:07 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
3955I still want to see Ben Shapiro's sister
3956
3957[08-May-19 04:08 PM] covfefe2020#7724
3958If god lies that means he is imperfect
3959
3960[08-May-19 04:08 PM] covfefe2020#7724
3961God cannot be imperfect or he isn’t god
3962
3963[08-May-19 04:08 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
3964i have just seen them
3965
3966[08-May-19 04:08 PM] covfefe2020#7724
3967Y’all messed up
3968
3969[08-May-19 04:08 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
3970@Leftcom Stalin just google them
3971
3972[08-May-19 04:08 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
3973Oh damn
3974
3975[08-May-19 04:08 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
3976She doesn't look that bad
3977
3978[08-May-19 04:08 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
3979She’s pretty cute
3980
3981[08-May-19 04:09 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
3982Shame she’s related to Ben tho
3983
3984[08-May-19 04:09 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
3985Yes
3986
3987[08-May-19 04:09 PM] covfefe2020#7724
3988
3989https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/575776244499480598/image0.jpg
3990
3991[08-May-19 04:09 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
3992We can maybe separate them and clean all traces of their relationship
3993
3994[08-May-19 04:09 PM] covfefe2020#7724
3995I thought orby only liked animals
3996
3997[08-May-19 04:10 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
3998Gender is a construct
3999
4000[08-May-19 04:10 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
4001So is space
4002
4003[08-May-19 04:10 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
4004Space is too imperfect to be a product of god
4005
4006[08-May-19 04:10 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
4007she is cute but she kind of looks like him when she smiles and it's quite off putting
4008
4009[08-May-19 04:10 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
4010lol
4011
4012[08-May-19 04:10 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4013And she maybe has a ton of makeup on her face
4014
4015[08-May-19 04:10 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
4016wait she's actually cute wtf
4017
4018[08-May-19 04:11 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
4019
4020https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/575776781211271178/image0.jpg
4021
4022[08-May-19 04:11 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
4023Actually
4024
4025[08-May-19 04:11 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
4026It’s ephebophilia
4027
4028[08-May-19 04:11 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4029Do you guys have a holiday too tomorrow?
4030
4031[08-May-19 04:11 PM] covfefe2020#7724
4032
4033https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/575776918519939072/image0.png
4034
4035[08-May-19 04:12 PM] covfefe2020#7724
4036What would the holiday be for
4037
4038[08-May-19 04:12 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
4039V day prolly
4040
4041[08-May-19 04:12 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4042Victory day
4043
4044[08-May-19 04:12 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4045Okay I'm the only one
4046
4047[08-May-19 04:12 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
4048
4049https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/575777053580722187/image0.jpg
4050
4051[08-May-19 04:12 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4052😭
4053
4054[08-May-19 04:13 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
4055we don't get one either
4056
4057[08-May-19 04:13 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
4058but maybe we'll get to see the queen lay a wreath of flowers 👏🏻
4059
4060[08-May-19 04:14 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
4061god i fucking love royalty
4062
4063[08-May-19 04:15 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
4064
4065https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/575777715903528960/image0.jpg
4066
4067[08-May-19 04:15 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4068Wow
4069
4070[08-May-19 04:15 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4071Nice Texas
4072
4073[08-May-19 04:15 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
4074science is not in the bible
4075
4076[08-May-19 04:16 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
4077SORCERY
4078
4079[08-May-19 04:16 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
4080ya all science is actually the product of satanic rituals and Merlin
4081
4082[08-May-19 04:16 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
4083👏
4084
4085[08-May-19 04:17 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4086Let's convert to hellenism
4087
4088[08-May-19 04:17 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4089This is too weird
4090
4091[08-May-19 04:17 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
4092How about Shintoism
4093
4094[08-May-19 04:17 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4095Too heavily connected with Japanese fascism
4096
4097[08-May-19 04:17 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
4098Jesus was a sorcerer
4099
4100[08-May-19 04:17 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4101But would be good without it
4102
4103[08-May-19 04:18 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
4104Zoroastrianism the OG
4105
4106[08-May-19 04:18 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4107Zoroastrianism🙏
4108
4109[08-May-19 04:18 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4110Some family members of mine are Zoroastrians
4111
4112[08-May-19 04:18 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4113Like real zoroastrians
4114
4115[08-May-19 04:19 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
4116
4117https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/575778751003099146/image0.jpg
4118
4119[08-May-19 04:19 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4120😂
4121
4122[08-May-19 04:19 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
4123i'm going to synthesise the materialist Zurvanite interpretation of zorastrianism with mazdak's teachings and marxism
4124
4125[08-May-19 04:19 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4126Zoroastrian Marxism
4127
4128[08-May-19 04:19 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4129😍
4130
4131[08-May-19 04:20 PM] covfefe2020#7724
4132You don’t have a parental right to hurt others
4133
4134[08-May-19 04:20 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
4135dialectical Zoroastrianism
4136
4137[08-May-19 04:20 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4138😍 😍
4139
4140[08-May-19 04:20 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4141Wait I need to look after my friends
4142
4143[08-May-19 04:21 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4144They are doing something stupid again, I'm smelling it
4145
4146[08-May-19 04:35 PM] Crezilin#1718
4147Zoroastrianism should dominate the middle east and not Islam. Change my mind.
4148
4149[08-May-19 04:35 PM] Crezilin#1718
4150We need all 100K of them to crusade Persia rn.
4151
4152[08-May-19 04:35 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4153Actually agreeing
4154
4155[08-May-19 04:38 PM] Crezilin#1718
4156If Iran did not have nukes and I had the capacity I'd pull an Israel.
4157
4158[08-May-19 04:39 PM] Orcka#9435
4159You misspelled: isNOTreal
4160
4161[09-May-19 12:24 PM] turnips#7959
4162Cool
4163
4164[09-May-19 02:23 PM] turnips#7959
4165North Korea is bad and they are communist so communism is bad
4166
4167[09-May-19 02:26 PM] covfefe2020#7724
4168Nice
4169
4170[09-May-19 02:38 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4171Dialectics from the Hegel himself
4172
4173[09-May-19 02:49 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
4174The United States is bad and they are capitalist so capitalism is bad
4175
4176[09-May-19 02:50 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4177🤔
4178
4179[09-May-19 02:52 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4180What's the time in Murica
4181
4182[09-May-19 03:03 PM] Crezilin#1718
4183Freedom time.
4184
4185[09-May-19 03:05 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4186Where
4187
4188[09-May-19 03:12 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4189There's no freedom in Capitalism, just opression
4190
4191[09-May-19 03:13 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
4192imagine being a socialist and thinking you know what 'freedom' means
4193
4194[09-May-19 03:20 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4195Yes
4196
4197[09-May-19 03:20 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4198Freedom from capitalism
4199
4200[09-May-19 03:30 PM] turnips#7959
4201You have more freedom to grow in business in capitalism
4202
4203[09-May-19 03:30 PM] turnips#7959
4204Also North Korea is actually a communist dictatorship
4205
4206[09-May-19 03:31 PM] covfefe2020#7724
4207Shut up bootlicker
4208
4209[09-May-19 03:31 PM] covfefe2020#7724
4210I’m capitalism you have freedom over your own labor
4211
4212[09-May-19 03:31 PM] turnips#7959
4213True
4214
4215[09-May-19 03:31 PM] turnips#7959
4216Communism you have 2 opinions farmer or dead
4217
4218[09-May-19 03:32 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4219Lol
4220
4221[09-May-19 03:33 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4222In capitalism you have 1 opinion: Poor worker
4223
4224[09-May-19 03:33 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
4225under communism, you can't get ahead, whatever you do
4226
4227[09-May-19 03:33 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4228Yes libertarian
4229
4230[09-May-19 03:33 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4231Stay in your own weird world
4232
4233[09-May-19 03:33 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4234@turnips A hot take from someone who has no idea of economy
4235
4236[09-May-19 03:34 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4237And I know what you want to say next, my answer is: If someone beats you, even tho he isn't a native speaker, you've probably lost
4238
4239[09-May-19 03:34 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
4240that doesn't make any sense
4241
4242[09-May-19 03:34 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
4243that is the stupidest sentence i've heard in here that wasn't a joke
4244
4245[09-May-19 03:34 PM] engelsgang#9451
4246```under communism, you can't get ahead, whatever you do``` what does this mean
4247
4248[09-May-19 03:35 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4249This is the stupidest sentence I've ever heard
4250
4251[09-May-19 03:35 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
4252from each according to his ability, to each according to his need
4253
4254[09-May-19 03:35 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4255Like we haven't explained it to you several times
4256
4257[09-May-19 03:35 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4258You're like JJ in 25 years younger
4259
4260[09-May-19 03:35 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
4261that means, you can work really hard or barely at all and you get the exact same
4262
4263[09-May-19 03:35 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
4264seems like you're really not incentivizing hard work
4265
4266[09-May-19 03:36 PM] engelsgang#9451
4267you realize that that 12-word phrase doesnt summarize all of communism, right?
4268
4269[09-May-19 03:36 PM] turnips#7959
4270@Leftcom Stalin  you can get ahead in capitalism you just won’t because you spent your life on communism
4271
4272[09-May-19 03:36 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4273*Points on heroes of work medals*
4274
4275[09-May-19 03:36 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4276@turnips I would bet every family member of mine has reached more in their life than you did
4277
4278[09-May-19 03:37 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4279Thus 30% are from the USSR and the rest from Iran
4280
4281[09-May-19 03:37 PM] turnips#7959
4282Bet
4283
4284[09-May-19 03:37 PM] engelsgang#9451
4285"incentivizing hard work" is only a necessity assuming that without said "incentive", there is a not enough labor being performed in order to meet the needs of society
4286
4287[09-May-19 03:38 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4288My brother finished studying pharmacy and is now promoting, one of my cousin finished studying medicine and is now working in Washington D.C. in a science lab
4289
4290[09-May-19 03:39 PM] turnips#7959
4291My grandpa and grandma didn’t go to collage and lived in a small town and still had enough to pay for my dad and uncle to go to collage they then both got good jobs that pay more than there parents
4292
4293[09-May-19 03:39 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4294Most of my uncles worked as tank manufacturers and later as highly promoted car mechanics in the USSR, Iran, the GDR and Poland
4295
4296[09-May-19 03:39 PM] turnips#7959
4297So from tank to car
4298
4299[09-May-19 03:40 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4300My father is an official in Hessia and is responsible for streets, infrastructure and traffic lights in 90% of the hessian territory
4301
4302[09-May-19 03:40 PM] turnips#7959
4303How big is that
4304
4305[09-May-19 03:40 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4306My mother owns an own business which is quite successful, she sells food and delicatesses
4307
4308[09-May-19 03:41 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4309Hessia is quite big for german standards
4310
4311[09-May-19 03:41 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
43124 big cities
4313
4314[09-May-19 03:41 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4315Frankfurt a.M., Wiesbaden, Darmstadt and Fulda
4316
4317[09-May-19 03:41 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
4318your mother is bourgeois scum
4319
4320[09-May-19 03:41 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4321Petite bourgeois*
4322
4323[09-May-19 03:41 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4324At first
4325
4326[09-May-19 03:41 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
4327you ought to get out the guillotine
4328
4329[09-May-19 03:42 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4330And second, yes she opened a business after she had an accident with her back
4331
4332[09-May-19 03:42 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4333She used to study architecture
4334
4335[09-May-19 03:42 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
4336my uncle is an architect in germany
4337
4338[09-May-19 03:43 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4339My grandfather was a Officer in the Red Army, then retired as a good car mechanic in Iran
4340
4341[09-May-19 03:43 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4342Architecture is a well paid job in Germany, not gonna lie.
4343Maybe because of the history
4344
4345[09-May-19 03:43 PM] turnips#7959
4346So from generation to generation nothing changes
4347
4348[09-May-19 03:43 PM] turnips#7959
4349Cool
4350
4351[09-May-19 03:43 PM] engelsgang#9451
4352@turnips ```My grandpa and grandma didn’t go to collage and lived in a small town and still had enough to pay for my dad and uncle to go to collage they then both got good jobs that pay more than there parents``` was this in post-war boom america?
4353
4354[09-May-19 03:44 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4355@turnips The jump from car mechanics to medicine, pharmacy and chemistry?
4356
4357[09-May-19 03:45 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4358There are many relatives out there that I never met and I will never meet probably
4359
4360[09-May-19 03:45 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4361I know one of my uncles was a highly renomated doctor for surgery in Moscow
4362
4363[09-May-19 03:45 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4364But maybe died
4365
4366[09-May-19 03:46 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4367And some of my relatives were banned to Siberia in 1917, there's probably another line of my family living in Siberia
4368
4369[09-May-19 03:49 PM] turnips#7959
4370Cool exile is moving up in the world
4371
4372[09-May-19 03:50 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4373Well thanks to Tsarist Russia
4374
4375[09-May-19 03:50 PM] turnips#7959
4376Also I noticed all the changes were in the time capitalism existed
4377
4378[09-May-19 03:51 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4379They were banned because of activities in socialist underground parties and terrorist organizations
4380
4381[09-May-19 03:51 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4382Which time where capitalism existed?
4383
4384[09-May-19 03:51 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4385Like in Poland or the GDR?
4386
4387[09-May-19 03:54 PM] Clapham#0791
4388who cares what job you do, what's important is people's material reality#
4389
4390[09-May-19 03:55 PM] turnips#7959
4391Sorry got to go create cringe  do the Mario
4392
4393[09-May-19 03:55 PM] Clapham#0791
4394not everyone can be a doctor, or have a highly specialised job - we still need workers to do the basic things and that doesn't mean that they should be destitute
4395
4396[09-May-19 03:56 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4397My point was that it was possible to achieve "higher" rated jobs in the Soviet Union
4398
4399[09-May-19 03:56 PM] Clapham#0791
4400you shouldn't *have* to want to change your job in order to improve your living conditions.  It really doesn't make much sense.  You should be able to do your job as well as you can and it should be enough so that you can live
4401
4402[09-May-19 03:56 PM] Clapham#0791
4403definitely invicta
4404
4405[09-May-19 03:57 PM] Clapham#0791
4406but even then, for the basic workers, there were imporvements in living standards
4407
4408[09-May-19 03:57 PM] Clapham#0791
4409which is what we fundamentally give a shit about
4410
4411[09-May-19 03:58 PM] Clapham#0791
4412so yeah, there needs to be both - the capacity to do more if you want to and have the ability to do so
4413
4414[09-May-19 03:59 PM] Clapham#0791
4415but also, better living standards across society, regardless of your occupation
4416
4417[09-May-19 04:00 PM] Clapham#0791
4418otherwise wtf is the point of industrialised society?  If we just want to live our lives and tick over, why not just become subsistence farmers where literally nothing will change?
4419
4420[09-May-19 04:00 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4421Yes
4422
4423[09-May-19 04:00 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4424If we argument from this point of view, capitalism makes it obligatory to work all the day
4425
4426[09-May-19 04:04 PM] Rest_In_XXXNightmare_Death#2085
4427I miss when the server actually talked about other topics
4428
4429[09-May-19 04:04 PM] Rest_In_XXXNightmare_Death#2085
4430And not just the same topic
4431
4432[09-May-19 04:04 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4433Well
4434
4435[09-May-19 04:06 PM] Orcka#9435
4436I want to see Red Chilean in this server tbh
4437
4438[09-May-19 04:08 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4439Why
4440
4441[09-May-19 04:15 PM] Orcka#9435
4442Just to see him go thru a shit storm
4443
4444[09-May-19 04:21 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
4445is he banned?
4446
4447[09-May-19 04:25 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4448Guess not
4449
4450[09-May-19 06:06 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
4451what's the communist view on specialization again?
4452
4453[09-May-19 06:06 PM] engelsgang#9451
4454what?
4455
4456[09-May-19 06:07 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4457What
4458
4459[09-May-19 06:07 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4460Job specialization
4461
4462[09-May-19 06:07 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
4463?
4464
4465[10-May-19 12:25 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
4466https://www.cbsnews.com/news/american-siblings-trapped-in-china-make-public-plea-for-help/
4467
4468[10-May-19 12:39 PM] covfefe2020#7724
4469Yeah sure ok
4470
4471[10-May-19 12:39 PM] covfefe2020#7724
4472Imperialist news source
4473
4474[10-May-19 01:49 PM] monkeygsun#2361
4475Better than Guantanamo
4476
4477[10-May-19 03:11 PM] Clapham#0791
4478@JuicyJuuce Real talk though, in all of the debates you've participated in, I can't remember one when you're actually laid out your own economic position.  I assume you're a social democrat.  As of the current political climate in the US and/or globally, what do you think of particular developments and what do **you** want to happen?
4479
4480[10-May-19 03:52 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
4481Well previous debates were mostly on the DebateCommunism discord where my status as a capitalist was all that most were interested in. Yes, I am roughly a social democrat. I also am a strong supporter of free trade.
4482
4483I think the information age has at once brought an opportunity for advancement to undeveloped countries while also enabling information echo chambers where extreme elements, mostly on the right but to some degree on the left, hear their viewpoints reinforced and become insulated from more credible information.
4484
4485[10-May-19 03:52 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
4486@Clapham
4487
4488[10-May-19 03:53 PM] nudel#9073
4489What is your reasoning for supporting free trade?
4490
4491[10-May-19 03:54 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
4492It has been the single greatest poverty reduction mechanic in history.
4493
4494[10-May-19 03:54 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
4495Soviet Union and China tho
4496
4497[10-May-19 03:54 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
4498After China liberalized its market.
4499
4500[10-May-19 03:55 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
4501Literal mud farmers to middle class in under 50 years
4502
4503[10-May-19 03:55 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
4504China still reduced poverty while their market wasnt free
4505
4506[10-May-19 03:55 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
4507Not by nearly as much.
4508
4509[10-May-19 03:56 PM] nudel#9073
4510Well, the emergence of slavery in early human history also increased the scale of production and developed much more material wealth than previous subsistence farming/hunting-based societies, and so, for a time, slavery was also the greatest poverty reduction mechanic in history.
4511
4512[10-May-19 03:56 PM] nudel#9073
4513Something being the best at X thing so far doesn't make it universally good.
4514
4515[10-May-19 03:56 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
4516Did it reduce poverty or just increase "GDP"?
4517
4518[10-May-19 03:56 PM] nudel#9073
4519I could ask the same about capitalism.
4520
4521[10-May-19 03:57 PM] nudel#9073
4522https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/08/exposing-great-poverty-reductio-201481211590729809.html
4523
4524[10-May-19 03:57 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
4525Okay but I'm asking you that about your claim about slavery. It would be better to not compare apples and oranges.
4526
4527[10-May-19 03:57 PM] nudel#9073
4528I don't see how these are apples and oranges.
4529
4530[10-May-19 03:57 PM] Clapham#0791
4531
4532https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/576498151163428893/ajph.76.6.661.pdf
4533
4534[10-May-19 03:58 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
4535Regardless, it seems your claim about slavery is about GDP, not poverty.
4536
4537[10-May-19 03:58 PM] nudel#9073
4538My claim is that slavery elevated more people out of the conditions of basic subsistence farming and reduced the number of people living in those conditions compared to what came before.
4539
4540[10-May-19 03:58 PM] Clapham#0791
4541with rergards to China, you can argue that they were opened up to capital investment with the relatively richer west, so of course economic development is going to increase when you've access to more investment capital.
4542
4543[10-May-19 03:59 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
4544Feudalism also lifted many people out of poverty
4545
4546[10-May-19 03:59 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
4547It's not "basic subsistence farming" that is the ultimate metric, but poverty.
4548
4549[10-May-19 03:59 PM] Clapham#0791
4550and what about post-USSR eastern europe?
4551
4552[10-May-19 03:59 PM] nudel#9073
4553There were not people who were able to read, write, or govern before class society.
4554
4555[10-May-19 03:59 PM] nudel#9073
4556You'd have to define poverty.
4557
4558[10-May-19 03:59 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
4559Everyone, please keep in mind that the context of this argument was why I support free trade.
4560
4561[10-May-19 03:59 PM] Clapham#0791
4562you did make a bold claim, however
4563
4564[10-May-19 04:00 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
4565@nudel were the slaves living conditions better or worse than before?
4566
4567[10-May-19 04:00 PM] nudel#9073
4568I don't know.
4569
4570[10-May-19 04:00 PM] Clapham#0791
4571and I'd say that you're conflating 'free trade' with industrialisation
4572
4573[10-May-19 04:00 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
4574Roman slaves got to live in a nice house and got feed
4575
4576[10-May-19 04:00 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
4577okay
4578
4579[10-May-19 04:00 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
4580Instead of living in the actual dirt
4581
4582[10-May-19 04:00 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
4583sounds like a pretty good life, @新世紀Orby , compared to what they might have had before.
4584
4585[10-May-19 04:01 PM] Clapham#0791
4586:/
4587
4588[10-May-19 04:01 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
4589My support of free trade is life improvement.
4590
4591[10-May-19 04:01 PM] Clapham#0791
4592I support free trade too, under a socialist system
4593
4594[10-May-19 04:01 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
4595class societies where made necessary by the transition to agriculture which was caused by changes in climate making hunter gatherer society unsustainable so it's not really about whether the slaves lived better the slave system was a necessary development
4596
4597[10-May-19 04:01 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
4598Splendid.
4599
4600[10-May-19 04:01 PM] nudel#9073
4601Ok, well the development of slavery and feudalism also improved many people's lives, no?
4602
4603[10-May-19 04:01 PM] Clapham#0791
4604but capitalists aren't happy to trade with socialist countries
4605
4606[10-May-19 04:01 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
4607So you’d agree slavery increased living conditions and reduced poverty?
4608
4609[10-May-19 04:01 PM] Clapham#0791
4610and vice versa
4611
4612[10-May-19 04:01 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
4613maybe so, I'm not sure how this is relevant to my support of free trade.
4614
4615[10-May-19 04:01 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
4616And at the time it was “the best” at it
4617
4618[10-May-19 04:02 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
4619It makes no sense to me to say “it’s the best” while feudalism was also “the best” at the time
4620
4621[10-May-19 04:02 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
4622While being a very shitty system to live under
4623
4624[10-May-19 04:02 PM] nudel#9073
4625Well the point is that just because something increases living standards relative to what came before, doesn't mean it is sustainable or desirable in the long-term.
4626
4627[10-May-19 04:02 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
4628So you are against free trade?
4629
4630[10-May-19 04:03 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
4631Not inherently just capitalistic free trade
4632
4633[10-May-19 04:03 PM] nudel#9073
4634I'm against capitalism itself, and I think that communism will end commodity production and exchange (eliminating "trade" itself.)
4635
4636[10-May-19 04:03 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
4637alright
4638
4639[10-May-19 04:03 PM] Clapham#0791
4640There are a couple of points being followed here, but in reference to free trade: All I'm pointing out is that, your claim was that ***free trade...has been the single greatest poverty reduction mechanic in history.*** and that seems a bit vague to me, because humans have always traded throughout history.  Aren't you conflating free trade with capitalism?  Even then, free trade and/or capitalism in and of themselves aren't the things that have improved living standards; it's industrial society which has!  Industrialisation can occur under socialism or capitalism.
4641
4642[10-May-19 04:04 PM] Clapham#0791
4643edited for clairty ^
4644
4645[10-May-19 04:05 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
4646I mean that in the global market that has been developing over the last century or two, a large percentage of lives  have been lifted out of the worst impoverished conditions that they had been living in for thousands of years.
4647
4648[10-May-19 04:05 PM] Clapham#0791
4649because you support free trade, but with capitalism
4650
4651[10-May-19 04:06 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
4652I don't think socialists would disagree.
4653
4654[10-May-19 04:06 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
4655but that has also happened under socialism and faster
4656
4657[10-May-19 04:06 PM] Clapham#0791
4658which had trade between socialist and capitalist countries
4659
4660[10-May-19 04:06 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
4661I mean socialists point to China, but their greatest growth was after they liberalized their economy.
4662
4663[10-May-19 04:06 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
4664More equitable wealth distribution under socialism allows more people to be lifted out of poverty faster
4665
4666[10-May-19 04:06 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
4667the populations of eastern europe where impoverished prior to socialism
4668
4669[10-May-19 04:07 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
4670as was russia
4671
4672[10-May-19 04:07 PM] Clapham#0791
4673^ and are impoverished after it
4674
4675[10-May-19 04:07 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
4676Instead of bourgeois getting richer exponentially faster than the working class gets richer
4677
4678[10-May-19 04:07 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
4679Like America has the wealthiest GDP but we still have people starving and homeless
4680
4681[10-May-19 04:08 PM] nudel#9073
4682How do you measure their growth, though? GDP?
4683
4684[10-May-19 04:08 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
4685the fact that everyone has a job and the right to a home and all neccessaries where price fixed at affordable rates meant that they could eliminate poverty
4686
4687[10-May-19 04:08 PM] nudel#9073
4688Because GDP growth is not the same as lifting people out of poverty, as you were talking about before.
4689
4690[10-May-19 04:09 PM] Clapham#0791
4691also, free trade in the capitalist system in and of itself, creating wealth, is kind of a myth because countries have picked and chosen, of their own discretion, to be protectionist or be free-trade according to their best interests
4692
4693[10-May-19 04:09 PM] Clapham#0791
4694you support free trade because it's in the best interests of the US to do so
4695
4696[10-May-19 04:09 PM] Clapham#0791
4697to promote free-trade globally, because the US has the superior position economically
4698
4699[10-May-19 04:09 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
4700I'm gonna go grab a drink, hopefully someone will respond to my comment.
4701
4702[10-May-19 04:09 PM] Clapham#0791
4703sort of like how the UK advocated free trade worldwide, once it had established monopolistic dominance over methods of industry
4704
4705[10-May-19 04:10 PM] Clapham#0791
4706we want free trade with you, now that we can sell you this thing which is going to put us in control of your economy and make us rich
4707
4708[10-May-19 04:10 PM] nudel#9073
4709```I mean socialists point to China, but their greatest growth was after they liberalized their economy.
4710``` This comment? I'd like to see your evidence for this, and how you define growth. @JuicyJuuce
4711
4712[10-May-19 04:10 PM] Crezilin#1718
4713It looks like the conclusion is that your interests conflict and so you're just gonna have to battle royale it.
4714
4715[10-May-19 04:12 PM] Clapham#0791
4716@Crezilin The easy thing would be to 'battle royale' it, however liberal, free-market, 'free-trade', capitalist ideology needs to be fundamentally questioned and attacked because it's wrong and is destroying the planet.
4717
4718[10-May-19 04:12 PM] Clapham#0791
4719😄
4720
4721[10-May-19 04:13 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
4722they couldn't have had that growth if the chinese population hadn't been lifted out of illiteracy and a good portion of them becoming well educated and scientifically competent i.e without Mao's policies. It's also worth noting that every country after britian that was trying to industrialize not just china but france germany japan and many others adopted protectionist policies then after the capitalist imperilaist countries industrialised forced their colonies to adopt a free trade policy with regards to their goods and to put tariffs on their rivals goods.
4723
4724[10-May-19 04:13 PM] Crezilin#1718
4725You think destroying capitalism would be easy? Ok try it. I am eating popcorn rn. Please send screenshots of your progress/milestones as you go.
4726
4727[10-May-19 04:13 PM] Clapham#0791
4728who said it'd be easy?
4729
4730[10-May-19 04:13 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
4731@nudel I'm kind of tired of endlessly providing sources for communists to claims overwhelmingly supported by evidence. I'm gonna game for a bit while you google `china gdp`.
4732
4733[10-May-19 04:14 PM] Crezilin#1718
4734" The easy thing would be to 'battle royale' it"
4735
4736[10-May-19 04:15 PM] nudel#9073
4737You haven't provided any sources yet, though.
4738
4739[10-May-19 04:15 PM] Clapham#0791
4740you have to do the work to refute it tho
4741
4742[10-May-19 04:16 PM] Clapham#0791
4743I'm just gonna make this statement and expect it not to be challenged.
4744
4745[10-May-19 04:16 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
4746china's greatest gdp growth was after they "liberalised"
4747
4748[10-May-19 04:16 PM] ĞØĐ Graves#3101
4749https://twitter.com/TwitterMoments/status/1126866023561531392
4750
4751[10-May-19 04:16 PM] ĞØĐ Graves#3101
4752oof
4753
4754[10-May-19 04:17 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
4755nice
4756
4757[10-May-19 04:17 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
4758the bbc are shit
4759
4760[10-May-19 04:17 PM] Clapham#0791
4761yeah and andrew Neil is a gross trogledyte
4762
4763[10-May-19 04:17 PM] nudel#9073
4764I did google China's GDP over time. I said before that I didn't think that GDP is a very good metric of economic growth, since a lot of it measures the amount that a country trades, which will inherently favor a country with generalized commodity production, like China.
4765
4766[10-May-19 04:17 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
4767andrew neil is very irritating
4768
4769[10-May-19 04:18 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
4770you can look at the median wages and things they have all grown very significantly
4771
4772[10-May-19 04:18 PM] nudel#9073
4773And even then, looking at China's GDP over time, it looks like the GDP grew more stable after 1978, but even before then, there were years where GDP growth topped even the most prosperous years since Deng. @JuicyJuuce
4774https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/576503401685450802/unknown.png
4775
4776[10-May-19 04:19 PM] Crezilin#1718
4777Is the full thing available? I wanna see what he said that was able to trigger Ben Shapiro.
4778
4779[10-May-19 04:19 PM] Crezilin#1718
4780@ĞØĐ Graves
4781
4782[10-May-19 04:19 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
4783deng and liu shioqui where very powerful in the party at the time before they where purged in the cultural revolution you can see the cultural revolution in the big drop
4784
4785[10-May-19 04:20 PM] nudel#9073
4786The years of greatest economic growth on that graph were during the Cultural Revolution.
4787
4788[10-May-19 04:20 PM] nudel#9073
4789And even then, GDP is still a deeply flawed metric of economic growth
4790
4791[10-May-19 04:21 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
4792deng was in power for some years during the cultural revolution
4793
4794[10-May-19 04:21 PM] nudel#9073
4795I am aware.
4796
4797[10-May-19 04:21 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
4798he only got purged when things heated up
4799
4800[10-May-19 04:21 PM] nudel#9073
4801We aren't talking about Deng as a person, we're talking about China pre-78 versus China post-78.
4802
4803[10-May-19 04:21 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
4804@nudel Do you know what makes those early growth rates less impressive than the later growth rates?
4805
4806[10-May-19 04:21 PM] ĞØĐ Graves#3101
4807i dont know yet
4808
4809[10-May-19 04:21 PM] ĞØĐ Graves#3101
4810its 16 mins i believe
4811
4812[10-May-19 04:22 PM] ĞØĐ Graves#3101
4813wait here
4814
4815[10-May-19 04:22 PM] nudel#9073
4816@JuicyJuuce China was a semi-agrarian economy, which made it easier to grow at that point. That also means that the basis for China's economic growth post-1978 was the industrial basis established between 1949 and 1978.
4817
4818[10-May-19 04:22 PM] ĞØĐ Graves#3101
4819https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUP4uJto99w
4820
4821[10-May-19 04:23 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
4822Okay, so presenting early growth as impressive when compared to later growth rates is a poor economic analysis.
4823
4824[10-May-19 04:24 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
4825Pre-industrialized growth in a short amount of time isnt bad economic analysis while the rest of the world was developed
4826
4827[10-May-19 04:24 PM] nudel#9073
4828Right, and as I pointed out before, it's also poor economic analysis to make a 1-to-1 comparison between an economy like China before 1978 and China after 1978 based purely on GDP, because GDP as a metric was devised to measure economies more similar to China after 1978.
4829
4830[10-May-19 04:24 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
4831"more similar" as in prospering?
4832
4833[10-May-19 04:24 PM] nudel#9073
4834No, more similar as in market-based.
4835
4836[10-May-19 04:25 PM] nudel#9073
4837I explained this before.
4838
4839[10-May-19 04:25 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
4840Or as in raising hundreds of millions of chinese out of agrarian subsistence poverty?
4841
4842[10-May-19 04:25 PM] nudel#9073
4843Even so, the argument you just employed can also be used against capitalism - of course it provided rapid growth, it was developing out of a feudal, agrarian world into an industrial one.
4844
4845[10-May-19 04:25 PM] nudel#9073
4846How is "poverty" defined?
4847
4848[10-May-19 04:25 PM] nudel#9073
4849China's poverty line is currently about a dollar a day.
4850
4851[10-May-19 04:26 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
4852Not making $0.25 an hour equivalent.
4853
4854[10-May-19 04:26 PM] nudel#9073
4855Are you seriously going to claim that someone making a dollar a day has been "raised out of poverty?"
4856
4857[10-May-19 04:26 PM] nudel#9073
4858What?
4859
4860[10-May-19 04:26 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
4861I mean they are doing better than someone making half that.
4862
4863[10-May-19 04:26 PM] nudel#9073
4864So?
4865
4866[10-May-19 04:26 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
4867But no, not in general.
4868
4869[10-May-19 04:27 PM] nudel#9073
4870Well, I'm not disputing China's impressive ability to give people $1.50 a day.
4871
4872[10-May-19 04:27 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
4873People going from making $0.25 per hour equivalent on a subsistance farm to $2 per hour in a factory is an immense improvement to quality of life.
4874
4875[10-May-19 04:27 PM] nudel#9073
4876Making more money doesn't necessarily improve quality of life, though.
4877
4878[10-May-19 04:27 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
4879It certainly helps.
4880
4881[10-May-19 04:27 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
4882Which is why hundreds of millions choose it.
4883
4884[10-May-19 04:28 PM] nudel#9073
4885If cost of living increases, making more money might not actually change your standard of living.
4886
4887[10-May-19 04:28 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
4888And I think we all know who buys those factory goods.
4889
4890[10-May-19 04:28 PM] nudel#9073
4891Pollution and dangerous factory jobs might also decrease your quality of life.
4892
4893[10-May-19 04:28 PM] nudel#9073
4894How did millions of people "choose" it?
4895
4896[10-May-19 04:28 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
4897by leaving subsistance farms?
4898
4899[10-May-19 04:28 PM] nudel#9073
4900I thought you liked the narrative that China was undemocratic and authoritarian.
4901
4902[10-May-19 04:29 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
4903this is really all over the place
4904
4905[10-May-19 04:29 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
4906not very interesting
4907
4908[10-May-19 04:29 PM] nudel#9073
4909They "left subsistence farms" as agriculture was forcibly decollectivized under Deng.
4910
4911[10-May-19 04:29 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
4912meh
4913
4914[10-May-19 04:30 PM] nudel#9073
4915I'm not making this "all over the place", you're making a bunch of loosely related arguments about China and I'm rebutting them.
4916
4917[10-May-19 04:30 PM] nudel#9073
4918https://monthlyreview.org/2013/05/01/the-political-economy-of-decollectivization-in-china/
4919
4920[10-May-19 04:31 PM] nudel#9073
4921I have to go for a few minutes, I'll be back if you choose to respond to the points I made, @JuicyJuuce
4922
4923[10-May-19 04:36 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
4924Why am I reading this?
4925https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/576507854945779713/unknown.png
4926
4927[10-May-19 04:36 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
4928tldr: reformists lied and said it was a bottom-up change when it was really top-down. So what?
4929
4930[10-May-19 04:42 PM] Clapham#0791
4931@nudel JJ subscribes to the belief that people not being in poverty as, them earning above 1 dollar/day alone.  Unfortunately, me and him have already had this debate :S.
4932
4933[10-May-19 04:42 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
4934I wish I understood your first sentence.
4935
4936[10-May-19 04:42 PM] Clapham#0791
4937yeah, I edited it
4938
4939[10-May-19 04:42 PM] Clapham#0791
4940but nice rapid fire
4941
4942[10-May-19 04:42 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
4943I explicitly said that I disagreed with that.
4944
4945[10-May-19 04:43 PM] Clapham#0791
4946with what?
4947
4948[10-May-19 04:45 PM] Clapham#0791
4949Yeah, I've already tried to argue with you a few months ago over how, how many dollars you earn adjusted for purchase power parity and deducing from that one statistic whether people are not in poverty, is extremely reductive.  Other people can feel free to argue that further I guess.
4950
4951[10-May-19 04:45 PM] Clapham#0791
4952I would continue this with regards to my criticism of your previous statement that kicked off the debate.
4953
4954[10-May-19 04:46 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
4955It's not simply a binary "in poverty" or "not in poverty"
4956
4957[10-May-19 04:46 PM] Crezilin#1718
4958According to the state it is.
4959
4960[10-May-19 04:46 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
4961that's nice
4962
4963[10-May-19 04:47 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
4964But there is value in looking at how many people were living in an extreme state of poverty (for all of human history) and how we have made great strides in raising their standard of living.
4965
4966[10-May-19 04:47 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
4967And of course we want it to continue improving.
4968
4969[10-May-19 04:48 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
4970And I think free trade has had a big part of that. It certainly was a big part of China's boom
4971
4972[10-May-19 04:48 PM] Clapham#0791
4973ok, well, in the UK, millions of kids go to school with no breakfast and not enough money to buy food during the day.  I'm sure that a significant fraction of them have mobile phones too.  To me, they're in poverty, yet they also have a common consumer item.
4974
4975[10-May-19 04:49 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
4976free trade is good in certain contexts nobody should deny that
4977
4978[10-May-19 04:49 PM] Clapham#0791
4979poverty is multi-faceted and pretty complicated and I'm pointing out that using consumption, won't cover substantive variables which would factor into what we think of as poverty.
4980
4981[10-May-19 04:50 PM] Clapham#0791
4982https://foodfoundation.org.uk/millions-of-uk-children-are-impacted-by-food-poverty/
4983
4984[10-May-19 04:52 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
4985Okay, and those are definitely important issues but that isn't a strong argument for ignoring a rise in income levels.
4986
4987[10-May-19 04:53 PM] Clapham#0791
4988I'm not.  You seem to be using it as ipso-factor all poverty across the board has decreased.
4989
4990[10-May-19 04:53 PM] Clapham#0791
4991that's what I'm criticising, as before
4992
4993[10-May-19 04:53 PM] Clapham#0791
4994but yet again, you don't seem to acknowledge that.
4995
4996[10-May-19 04:54 PM] Clapham#0791
4997so I don't know where to continue, because you're going to characterise me as "You can't even be happy that people have more disposable income" which is the strawman you threw at me before.
4998
4999[10-May-19 04:54 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5000I mean, the portion of kids in the U.K. missing meals in 2019 is monumentally lower than it was 100 or 200 years ago.
5001
5002[10-May-19 04:57 PM] Clapham#0791
5003Other people can feel free to continue this particular topic, but I want to question your statement ...* that free trade...has been the single greatest poverty reduction mechanic in history. * My points include but are not limited to:
5004
50051. that seems a bit vague to me, because humans have always traded throughout history.  Aren't you conflating free trade with capitalism?  Even then, free trade and/or capitalism in and of themselves aren't the things that have improved living standards; it's industrial society which has!  Industrialisation can occur under socialism or capitalism.
5006
50072. also, free trade in the capitalist system in and of itself, creating wealth, is kind of a myth because countries have picked and chosen, of their own discretion, to be protectionist or be free-trade according to their best interests
5008you support free trade because it's in the best interests of the US to do so to promote free-trade globally, because the US has the superior position economically.  
5009
50103. in other words, countries can still develop, whether they are socialist or capitalist, even without free trade!  The current world economic paradigm is such that, that isn't possible because of how technology, capital and expertise has accumulated unless you initially import those things.
5011
5012[10-May-19 04:58 PM] nudel#9073
5013@JuicyJuuce It was to respond to the idea that people spontaneously and individually chose to leave collective farming and to become individual landowners/industrial workers.
5014
5015[10-May-19 04:59 PM] nudel#9073
5016Though I'm not sure why you asked "why you're reading that", if you were somehow able to get through that article to the conclusion in the space of six minutes.
5017
5018[10-May-19 05:01 PM] nudel#9073
5019And if you are now going to begin talking about poverty in terms of standard of living, I'd like to see where you're getting that claim from, because I haven't seen much information about how the standard of living of the average Chinese person has changed from 1978 to the present, or how it changed from 1949 to 1978.
5020
5021[10-May-19 05:02 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5022@Clapham free trade in the sense of richer countries buying from poorer countries. This has brought higher paying jobs to poor countries which has helped develop, and yes, industrialize them.
5023
5024Yes countries have picked and choosen whether or not to be protectionist. I advocate against protectionism because I believe in the benefits of trade to the global poor.
5025```
5026you support free trade because it's in the best interests of the US to do so to promote free-trade globally, because the US has the superior position economically.
5027```
5028Please don't make up things.
5029
5030[10-May-19 05:03 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5031Your #3 just seems like a self-contradiction.
5032
5033[10-May-19 05:05 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5034@nudel Market demand and the growth of industry as a result of market reforms is what drove people to the cities.
5035
5036[10-May-19 05:06 PM] nudel#9073
5037That... does not respond to my point at all.
5038
5039[10-May-19 05:06 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5040You are claiming that decollectivization of farms drove them to teh cities.
5041
5042[10-May-19 05:08 PM] nudel#9073
5043Yeah, because decollectivization often made economic conditions worse for farmers and drove them to cities. Though again, this is not relevant to my main argument.
5044
5045[10-May-19 05:08 PM] nudel#9073
5046I'm more interested in where you are getting this information about living standards.
5047
5048[10-May-19 05:10 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5049No, decollectivization of farms led to greater rural incomes and greater production efficiency, enabling an overall more productive society as proportionally less manpower had to be devoted to the production of food.
5050
5051[10-May-19 05:10 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5052https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2013/05/World-Poverty-Since-1820.png
5053
5054[10-May-19 05:11 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5055Data on poverty is almost always shitty though
5056
5057[10-May-19 05:11 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5058With how they define poverty
5059
5060[10-May-19 05:11 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5061I now make 2$ a day! Goodbye hunger!
5062
5063[10-May-19 05:11 PM] nudel#9073
5064Decollectivization led to greater incomes *for the people still living on farms and farming for profit.
5065
5066[10-May-19 05:11 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5067Now I can afford a 10$ lb of rice every 5 days!
5068
5069[10-May-19 05:11 PM] nudel#9073
5070Where are you getting the idea that decollectivization was more efficient?
5071
5072[10-May-19 05:12 PM] nudel#9073
5073Also, I posted an article before that criticizes that poverty statistic.
5074
5075[10-May-19 05:12 PM] nudel#9073
5076Like, most of the data, especially pre-1900, is nonsensical.
5077
5078[10-May-19 05:12 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5079Yes, we debated that before on DC. Basically the argument is that $2 / day still sucks (agreed) and that we should look at absolute numbers instead of percentage numbers (disagreed).
5080
5081[10-May-19 05:13 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5082Even at 1900, 85% were at less than $2/day.
5083
5084[10-May-19 05:14 PM] nudel#9073
5085It's also that living on less than $2/day in a pre-capitalist society may provide a higher standard of living (less pollution, labor is not alienated, more living space) than living on $2/day or more as, for example, an industrial worker in a large city.
5086
5087[10-May-19 05:15 PM] nudel#9073
5088The Al Jazeera article I posted earlier also goes over how many of these statistics are counted dishonestly.
5089
5090[10-May-19 05:16 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5091That Al Jazeera article is what I'm referring to.
5092
5093[10-May-19 05:16 PM] nudel#9073
5094Ok.
5095
5096[10-May-19 05:17 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5097I mean, maybe in regards to rural vs urban work but outside of isolated examples (like the enclosure movement in the U.K.), the overwhelming trend has been for people to move en masse from farms to cities to improve their standard of living.
5098
5099[10-May-19 05:18 PM] nudel#9073
5100The transition from "less than $2/day" to "more than $2/day" (or $1, or $1.90) may have more to do with a large segment of the population changing from a non-money-based way of obtaining the means of subsistence to a money-based economy, than it does with any actual increase in living standards.
5101
5102[10-May-19 05:18 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5103China did have a bunch of communes before Deng reforms
5104
5105[10-May-19 05:18 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5106No, I'm pretty sure that is taken into account lol
5107
5108[10-May-19 05:18 PM] nudel#9073
5109How?
5110
5111[10-May-19 05:18 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5112Um, by looking at what they produce and consume?
5113
5114[10-May-19 05:19 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5115I doubt they were like, "well they bartered for that so it doesn't count"
5116
5117[10-May-19 05:19 PM] nudel#9073
5118How do they know how much people produced and consumed, especially in parts of the world with no written record? How do they assign it a monetary value in a society where those goods were often not up for sale?
5119
5120[10-May-19 05:20 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5121They estimate
5122
5123[10-May-19 05:20 PM] nudel#9073
5124How do they make those estimates, though?
5125
5126[10-May-19 05:20 PM] nudel#9073
5127How do we know they are accurate?
5128
5129[10-May-19 05:20 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5130It's not like we have zero understanding of feudal economies
5131
5132[10-May-19 05:20 PM] nudel#9073
5133That is not what I said.
5134
5135[10-May-19 05:21 PM] nudel#9073
5136```I mean, maybe in regards to rural vs urban work but outside of isolated examples (like the enclosure movement in the U.K.), the overwhelming trend has been for people to move en masse from farms to cities to improve their standard of living.``` Yes, but how did living standards get worse in the countryside than in the cities in the first place? My understanding is that it was either by people being forced off their land, bought out en masse by large landowners, or because advancements in farming made it essentially impossible for most people to make a living off of agriculture, forcing them into the cities, even though their lives beforehand may have been better.
5137
5138[10-May-19 05:21 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5139I mean the sources you provided have contested the value of using *percent of population on less than $2/day*, not on the reliability of the data.
5140
5141[10-May-19 05:21 PM] nudel#9073
5142Yeah, and I'm contesting the reliability of the data.
5143
5144[10-May-19 05:21 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5145"how did living standards get worse in the countryside than in the cities in the first place?"
5146
5147Did they?
5148
5149[10-May-19 05:22 PM] nudel#9073
5150Well you just said that people moved from farms to cities to improve their standard of living.
5151
5152[10-May-19 05:22 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5153Indeed
5154
5155[10-May-19 05:22 PM] nudel#9073
5156It was in that quote.
5157
5158[10-May-19 05:22 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5159Do you see the gap?
5160
5161[10-May-19 05:22 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5162In that logical jump?
5163
5164[10-May-19 05:22 PM] nudel#9073
5165I am not claiming that we know nothing about feudal economies.
5166
5167[10-May-19 05:22 PM] nudel#9073
5168What logical jump?
5169
5170[10-May-19 05:22 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5171That people were motivated to move to the cities "therefore" things must have gotten worse in rural areas.
5172
5173[10-May-19 05:23 PM] nudel#9073
5174You were the one who asserted that people moved to cities to improve their standards of living, not me.
5175
5176[10-May-19 05:23 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5177I did
5178
5179[10-May-19 05:23 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5180So you don't see the logical leap you made.
5181
5182[10-May-19 05:23 PM] nudel#9073
5183So you are pointing out a flaw in your own logic.
5184
5185[10-May-19 05:24 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5186Here it is: people could have moved to the cities because... wait for it... the life offered by cities was better than the steady state life in rural areas.
5187
5188[10-May-19 05:24 PM] nudel#9073
5189What does "better" mean, outside of standards of living?
5190
5191[10-May-19 05:24 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5192Do you acknowledge the logical leap you made?
5193
5194[10-May-19 05:24 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5195before you redirect
5196
5197[10-May-19 05:24 PM] nudel#9073
5198You haven't pointed out any logical leap.
5199
5200[10-May-19 05:24 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5201oof
5202
5203[10-May-19 05:25 PM] nudel#9073
5204Or if you have, you have explained it very poorly.
5205
5206[10-May-19 05:25 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5207I grow weary
5208
5209[10-May-19 05:26 PM] nudel#9073
5210Yeah, it must be hard work to try to construe raw income as universally correlating directly to living standards despite all available evidence and historical knowledge contradicting that.
5211
5212[10-May-19 05:27 PM] nudel#9073
5213JuicyJuuce: ```"how did living standards get worse in the countryside than in the cities in the first place?"
5214
5215Did they?```
5216JuicyJuuce, 3 minutes later: ```people could have moved to the cities because... wait for it... the life offered by cities was better than the steady state life in rural areas.```
5217
5218[10-May-19 05:28 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5219Cities offer more than just “better standard of living”
5220
5221[10-May-19 05:28 PM] nudel#9073
5222Either living standards got worse in the countryside in relation to the cities, or living standards were worse in the countryside to begin with, in which case you would have to explain why people didn't move to cities earlier.
5223
5224[10-May-19 05:28 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5225my point is that the countryside doesn't have to get worse in order for the cities to get better
5226
5227[10-May-19 05:28 PM] nudel#9073
5228I didn't say it had to get worse.
5229
5230[10-May-19 05:28 PM] nudel#9073
5231I said it had to get worse relative to the cities.
5232
5233[10-May-19 05:29 PM] nudel#9073
5234Now, do you have any evidence of the living conditions in cities improving around the time of industrialization?
5235
5236[10-May-19 05:29 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5237I mean you listed a bunch of hypothesis about it getting worse.
5238
5239[10-May-19 05:30 PM] nudel#9073
5240Yes, because I didn't consider the possibility of cities somehow getting better, as every historical account of urbanization that I have knowledge of describes cities becoming more ridden with illness, more cramped, and less hygienic as time went on in that time period.
5241
5242[10-May-19 05:33 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5243People usually go to urban areas to find work and a job and get stuck in poor living conditions
5244
5245[10-May-19 05:33 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5246Like Hong Kong
5247
5248[10-May-19 05:34 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5249I mean, it is a trade off, but it has been one that humans have been eagerly choosing for the last couple centuries.
5250
5251[10-May-19 05:35 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5252people didn't eagerly choose to become indistrial workers in europe during the industrial revolution. they where forced of their land in the uk this was called the enclosure of the commons when the large landowners consolidated most of the agriculture.
5253
5254[10-May-19 05:35 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5255Rural life in the past (less so today) had been synonymous with poor access to health care education. Then there are more luxury items like cultural and entertainment benefits to city life.
5256
5257[10-May-19 05:36 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5258Suburban areas exist too
5259
5260[10-May-19 05:36 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5261Yes, like I said, besides exceptions like enclusure in the U.K.
5262
5263[10-May-19 05:36 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5264You still have access to the benefits of city life without poor living conditions and rampant poverty
5265
5266[10-May-19 05:36 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5267that's more of a rule for the last couple centrueis than exception
5268
5269[10-May-19 05:36 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5270Which is why suburbs develop
5271
5272[10-May-19 05:36 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5273<https://www.khanacademy.org/humanities/us-history/the-gilded-age/gilded-age/a/america-moves-to-the-city>
5274https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/576523067430404107/unknown.png
5275
5276[10-May-19 05:38 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5277
5278https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/576523421140123666/image0.jpg
5279
5280[10-May-19 05:38 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5281
5282https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/576523429931384832/image0.jpg
5283
5284[10-May-19 05:38 PM] nudel#9073
5285Well, the ethnic enclaves are fairly specific to the US, no?
5286
5287[10-May-19 05:38 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5288Sure, I'm just saying that city life offered a lot of benefits.
5289
5290[10-May-19 05:38 PM] nudel#9073
5291And the conditions in US cities were so poor that they spawned an entire journalistic sub-industry of "muckrakers".
5292
5293[10-May-19 05:39 PM] nudel#9073
5294To expose the terrible conditions that people lived in there.
5295
5296[10-May-19 05:39 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5297I mean, I'm not denying that there was a portion that got the short end of the stick.
5298
5299[10-May-19 05:40 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5300whats actually being disputed rn?
5301
5302[10-May-19 05:40 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5303That city life and the increase in income drew people to the cities.
5304
5305[10-May-19 05:40 PM] nudel#9073
5306@Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism JJ is arguing that increases in living conditions of cities led to urbanisation in the industrial revolution.
5307
5308[10-May-19 05:41 PM] nudel#9073
5309JJ, do you have any historical source that argues that increases in the quality of life in cities in the mid-to-late 1800s led to urbanization?
5310
5311[10-May-19 05:41 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5312yeah most peoples living standards got worse during early industrialisation countries where that wasn't the case are countries where the govt directed lost of resources towards providing services to the urban working class
5313
5314[10-May-19 05:42 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5315City life flourished because they were hubs of commerce and many factories set up shop in there while allowed cheap laborers to flood into shoddily built apartments with transportation “highways” surrounding them like boats, trains, and eventually cars
5316
5317[10-May-19 05:42 PM] nudel#9073
5318The Khan Academy article that you posted is talking specifically about America, where much city growth was fueled by immigrants fleeing overseas violence and poverty in favor of exaggerated and incorrect tales about America's wealth.
5319
5320[10-May-19 05:43 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5321Industrialization made cities and also made them really shitty cities
5322
5323[10-May-19 05:43 PM] nudel#9073
5324Though, this has gotten completely off-topic; I wanted you to provide any evidence whatsoever that the increase in income of various areas of the world corresponded to an increase in living standards, which you have not done.
5325
5326[10-May-19 05:43 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5327
5328https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/576524771488170015/image0.jpg
5329
5330[10-May-19 05:44 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5331People flooding to London in the 1800’s and the factories that employed them developed into shit living conditions and intense smog
5332
5333[10-May-19 05:46 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5334Cities almost universally have shit living conditions
5335
5336[10-May-19 05:48 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5337cities where shit for vast majority of people up until social democracy/other reforms. The rise in living standards for the poor is more down to that than industrialisation
5338
5339[10-May-19 05:51 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5340life got better for a minority of people during industrialisation but the majority of the pre capitalist middle class of small farmers and self employed artisans where destroyed and forced into the proletariat.
5341
5342[10-May-19 05:54 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5343I mean overall you guys are not really providing data to support your argument. It is a novel claim (to me) that increased real income does not correlate with increased standard of living.
5344
5345[10-May-19 05:55 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5346Pointing to pictures of the worst situations isn't really a rigorous analysis.
5347
5348[10-May-19 05:55 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5349^ i also don't buy this
5350
5351[10-May-19 05:55 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5352Cities might have overall increased income but it doesn’t mean poverty doesn’t exist
5353
5354[10-May-19 05:56 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5355Or that poverty isn’t a big problem
5356
5357[10-May-19 05:56 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5358In those cities
5359
5360[10-May-19 05:56 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5361Well my argument certainly has been that poverty doesn't exist. /s
5362
5363[10-May-19 05:57 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5364A region with high amounts of factories and bourgeois will have higher relative income, but the workers ,who out number the bourgeois, don’t get the benefits of that income
5365
5366[10-May-19 05:57 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5367Which is why I'm not citing average income, but percentage of people below a threshold.
5368
5369[10-May-19 05:58 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5370There isn’t a threshold for poor living conditions
5371
5372[10-May-19 05:58 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5373Sure, there is no ideal threshold, but if you want a data driven analysis you have to pick thresholds in order to do comparisons over time.
5374
5375[10-May-19 06:00 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5376real income may correlate to an increase in living standards provided that inequality isn't also rising considerably. if incomes(provided you mean actual buying power of wages) are rising then generally the standard of living will rise. i dispute the extent you can point to free trade as the cause of these increases in all cases
5377
5378[10-May-19 06:02 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5379for instance in china the eastern relatovely modernised part of china may certainly be better off because of free trade but most of the poverty reduction in inland china wouldn;t have happened without the govt taking the money it was making in the east and using them to fund targeted poverty relief efforts
5380
5381[10-May-19 06:02 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5382I guess being a centrist liberal I disagree with your first sentence. You can have increasing inequality while also having the poorest greatly increasing their quality of life. Not that I'm saying that is preferable. It just doesn't follow that inequality precludes standard of living improvements for the poor.
5383
5384[10-May-19 06:02 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5385you can
5386
5387[10-May-19 06:03 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5388And more power to China for that program.
5389
5390[10-May-19 06:04 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5391It’s just that regional increased income doesn’t directly mean higher standards of living
5392
5393[10-May-19 06:04 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5394it's possible to have everyone get better off and the rich just get richer faster. But that didn't really happen in when most early capitralist countries where industrialising and when urbanisation happened
5395
5396[10-May-19 06:06 PM] turnips#7959
5397Wait are you saying capitalism worked
5398
5399[10-May-19 06:07 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5400I think that it is more complicated than that, with it benifitting some of the working class while it was worse for others.
5401
5402[10-May-19 06:07 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5403They agree that capitalism works, just that socialism will work better.
5404
5405[10-May-19 06:08 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5406for the minority of basically educated people who managed to become clerks
5407
5408[10-May-19 06:08 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5409As in feudalism < capitalism < socialism
5410
5411[10-May-19 06:08 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5412but they where a relatively small group compared to everyone in the factory
5413
5414[10-May-19 06:10 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5415lot's of people went from being either relatively skilled crafts people organised into guilds or the majority who where people who got forced off the land.
5416
5417[10-May-19 06:11 PM] turnips#7959
5418Is there any socialist country’s currently
5419
5420[10-May-19 06:11 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5421depends on your definition
5422
5423[10-May-19 06:12 PM] turnips#7959
5424Claims to be socialist and is working towards that goal
5425
5426[10-May-19 06:12 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5427there are a number of states that believe(or claim to) they are socialist and working towards communism
5428
5429[10-May-19 06:12 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5430Yea
5431
5432[10-May-19 06:13 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5433i.e china, cuba vietnam north korea
5434
5435[10-May-19 06:13 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5436Some people consider some of them not socialist
5437
5438[10-May-19 06:13 PM] turnips#7959
5439North Korea is communist
5440
5441[10-May-19 06:13 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5442How
5443
5444[10-May-19 06:13 PM] turnips#7959
5445Nam is communist
5446
5447[10-May-19 06:13 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5448How
5449
5450[10-May-19 06:13 PM] turnips#7959
5451Cuba is communist
5452
5453[10-May-19 06:13 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5454Them being socialist is reasonable to state
5455
5456[10-May-19 06:14 PM] turnips#7959
5457I don’t know about that first one though
5458
5459[10-May-19 06:14 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5460north korea claims to be socialist and working towards communism i is a planned economy with some special economic zones that allow limited markets
5461
5462[10-May-19 06:14 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5463But them being communist isn’t if you define communism as Marx describe it, stateless classless moneyless
5464
5465[10-May-19 06:14 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5466vietnam claims to be a socialist oriented market economy or something like that and claims to be working towards communism
5467
5468[10-May-19 06:15 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5469Cuba is developing Deng reforms 😔
5470
5471[10-May-19 06:15 PM] turnips#7959
5472Oh I was just going off there government system
5473
5474[10-May-19 06:15 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5475And economic
5476
5477[10-May-19 06:15 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5478embrace the Deng
5479
5480[10-May-19 06:15 PM] turnips#7959
5481Isn’t Cuba becoming capitalist
5482
5483[10-May-19 06:15 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5484My productive forces are already developed 😔
5485
5486[10-May-19 06:15 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5487they are implementing a few market reforms
5488
5489[10-May-19 06:16 PM] turnips#7959
5490Being that they let the us trade
5491
5492[10-May-19 06:16 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5493The US is allowing trade to cuba*
5494
5495[10-May-19 06:16 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5496they are letting some small businesses and stuff set up
5497
5498[10-May-19 06:16 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5499Cuba never banned US trade
5500
5501[10-May-19 06:16 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5502yeah cuba always wanted to trade with america
5503
5504[10-May-19 06:17 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5505Cuba is also recognizing the existence of private property which is kinda disappointing
5506
5507[10-May-19 06:17 PM] turnips#7959
5508Ok but their leader was a prick
5509
5510[10-May-19 06:17 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5511But they aren’t allowing the accumulation of it
5512
5513[10-May-19 06:17 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5514Castro was based
5515
5516[10-May-19 06:17 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
5517me when my economics teacher makes us read the ussr chapter
5518https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/576533259895308453/nckfr52aggx21.png
5519
5520[10-May-19 06:17 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5521Huh
5522
5523[10-May-19 06:18 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5524This is why I want a "serious discussion only" channel.
5525
5526[10-May-19 06:18 PM] turnips#7959
5527Is the socialist community working for communism or socialism
5528
5529[10-May-19 06:18 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5530This is supposed to be that @JuicyJuuce
5531
5532[10-May-19 06:18 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5533You can delete his message tho
5534
5535[10-May-19 06:18 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5536It should be but we don't have a rule for it unfortunately.
5537
5538[10-May-19 06:18 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5539@turnips socialism is usually a step in development towards eventual communism
5540
5541[10-May-19 06:18 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
5542JJ is better than orby
5543
5544[10-May-19 06:19 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5545We’re different people
5546
5547[10-May-19 06:19 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
5548because JJ doesn't delete messages
5549
5550[10-May-19 06:19 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5551And are both unique egos
5552
5553[10-May-19 06:19 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
5554"1. no inherent sexism, racism, or pre-disposed bias."
5555
5556[10-May-19 06:19 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
5557hmmm
5558
5559[10-May-19 06:19 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5560You can not compare us as I am the sole proprietor of myself
5561
5562[10-May-19 06:19 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5563lol
5564
5565[10-May-19 06:19 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
5566so the f-word (gay) is technically legal
5567
5568[10-May-19 06:19 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5569Yea
5570
5571[10-May-19 06:21 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5572@turnips  depends on the socialist generally
5573
5574[10-May-19 06:22 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5575marxists are working towards communism
5576
5577[10-May-19 06:22 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5578so are ancoms
5579
5580[10-May-19 06:22 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5581dem socs/  syndicalists usually aren't
5582
5583[10-May-19 06:23 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5584And market socialists aren’t
5585
5586[10-May-19 06:23 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5587Market socs annoy me
5588
5589[10-May-19 06:24 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5590you mean like titoists?
5591
5592[10-May-19 06:24 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5593they are pretty annoying as a group
5594
5595[10-May-19 06:25 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5596Kinda
5597
5598[10-May-19 06:25 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5599I know not titoist market socialists
5600
5601[10-May-19 06:25 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5602Who think that markets are the best way to deal with everything
5603
5604[10-May-19 06:25 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5605But they don’t really have an answer to a lot of things like “what about ableist hiring practices”
5606
5607[10-May-19 06:26 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5608I know one who actually thinks mondragon is an example of working socialism
5609
5610[10-May-19 06:27 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5611Even though workers still have to give up their surplus value so they can compete on the market
5612
5613[10-May-19 06:27 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5614i think i've seen people who identify as specifically market socialists. there are lots of market socialists mixed into other ideologies alot if not most dem socs are market socialists in my experience
5615
5616[10-May-19 06:28 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5617Yea
5618
5619[10-May-19 06:28 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5620I think market soc could be a good intermediary
5621
5622[10-May-19 06:28 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5623But I don’t think markets are a good thing
5624
5625[10-May-19 06:28 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5626richard wolf is sort of pushing a market socialist line in some some of his videos
5627
5628[10-May-19 06:29 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5629which is quite disappointing but understandable.
5630
5631[10-May-19 06:29 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5632I know a guy in the socialism in the 21st century fb group who’s market AOC kinda
5633
5634[10-May-19 06:29 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5635Marketsoc*
5636
5637[10-May-19 06:30 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5638He considers himself a commie though
5639
5640[10-May-19 06:30 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5641He wants big businesses to be brought under worker control and smaller ones left as is
5642
5643[10-May-19 06:30 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5644They are a market version of Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.
5645
5646[10-May-19 06:30 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5647Like Disney and google become public and your local corner shop can stay as is
5648
5649[10-May-19 06:30 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5650@JuicyJuuce Ben Shapiro’s wet dream
5651
5652[10-May-19 06:30 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5653hahaha
5654
5655[10-May-19 06:31 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5656
5657https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/576536849229676544/image0.jpg
5658
5659[10-May-19 06:31 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5660like baby socialism is markets but reform them. < let's have markets but worker's own the firm and have some control over it < actual socialism.
5661
5662[10-May-19 06:33 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5663small buisnesses are fine in a transition but not as they are now and i can't really see how they could compete with the general socialist MOP once it gets going and can produce goods very cheaply and distribute them to everyone
5664
5665[10-May-19 06:34 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5666Yea
5667
5668[10-May-19 06:34 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5669Small business just can’t really compete
5670
5671[10-May-19 06:35 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5672they already can't compete with large chains as is
5673
5674[10-May-19 06:35 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5675Ancap will fix it don’t worry
5676
5677[10-May-19 06:35 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5678once large scale production is consolidated and automated it will be game over anyway
5679
5680[10-May-19 06:36 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5681Artisan and science based economy here we go
5682
5683[10-May-19 06:37 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5684fully automated luxury communism :reeee:
5685
5686[10-May-19 06:37 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5687The dream
5688
5689[10-May-19 06:38 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5690I hope I live long enough to part of a commune
5691
5692[10-May-19 06:38 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5693And see full automation
5694
5695[10-May-19 06:38 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5696the dream is intergalactic cybernetically integrated space communism
5697
5698[10-May-19 06:39 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5699The only place that hasn’t been corrupted by capitalism
5700
5701[10-May-19 06:39 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5702spAAaaAAAce
5703
5704[10-May-19 06:39 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5705i think if we live to be like 70 we will def see automation
5706
5707[10-May-19 06:39 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5708https://youtu.be/g1Sq1Nr58hM
5709
5710[10-May-19 06:40 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5711if we don't die in ww3
5712
5713[10-May-19 06:40 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5714Hey
5715
5716[10-May-19 06:40 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5717Remember
5718
5719[10-May-19 06:40 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5720
5721https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/576539034613186560/image0.jpg
5722
5723[10-May-19 06:40 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5724Ww3 could be a blessing in disguise
5725
5726[10-May-19 06:40 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5727As long as the entire planet isn’t wiped out lmao
5728
5729[10-May-19 06:41 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5730I think if any major war broke out in the future they’re would be mass revolts against their states due to the drop in comfortable living
5731
5732[10-May-19 06:41 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5733In the first world atleast
5734
5735[10-May-19 06:41 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5736ww3 or climate change will cause enough destruction to break the social equilibrium and both things will require large scale planning of industry even for capitalist countries just to manage the problems it throws up.
5737
5738[10-May-19 06:43 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5739neo liberalism couldn't survive either if capitalism survives into the second half of the century it would have to be some sort of state capitalism
5740
5741[10-May-19 06:43 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5742Why is that?
5743
5744[10-May-19 06:44 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5745Market is too defragmented to band together to work towards a common goal like that
5746
5747[10-May-19 06:44 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5748how can you overhaul the entirety of global production without lagre scale govt planning?
5749
5750[10-May-19 06:44 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5751Most of the market won’t take part in large scale reforms
5752
5753[10-May-19 06:44 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5754I mean, it is already in progress.
5755
5756[10-May-19 06:44 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5757in ww1 and ww2 the govt had to take control of the economy and plan it around the war effort.
5758
5759[10-May-19 06:45 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5760if you think that the rate we are going is enough then you are dreaming
5761
5762[10-May-19 06:45 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5763The current effort to reform production can’t be done under commodity production
5764
5765[10-May-19 06:46 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5766we need to get to a zero emissions economy in a few decades to even have a chance of avoiding worst case scenarios
5767
5768[10-May-19 06:46 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5769which means the entire way we produce things like steal needs to be completely overhauled
5770
5771[10-May-19 06:47 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5772Millions of things are produced to be disposable
5773
5774[10-May-19 06:47 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5775and transport goods overseas.
5776
5777[10-May-19 06:47 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5778And we cannot keep up that kind of production
5779
5780[10-May-19 06:47 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5781I mean there is a large jump from increased regulation to state capitalism.
5782
5783[10-May-19 06:47 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5784the steal industry will never do this of it's own inititative if they even have the resources to do it individually,
5785
5786[10-May-19 06:47 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5787Fucking poundland and tesco (and probably others) are selling SINGLE USE BATTERIES
5788
5789[10-May-19 06:47 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5790That you throw out
5791
5792[10-May-19 06:47 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5793After one use
5794
5795[10-May-19 06:48 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5796That’s so fucking wasteful
5797
5798[10-May-19 06:48 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5799Like batteries for your phone
5800
5801[10-May-19 06:48 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5802Lithium ion rechargeable batteries that just get tossed in the bin
5803
5804[10-May-19 06:48 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5805you couldn't really regulate that happening if you tried to regulate it in a few countries they would just produce in a different country
5806
5807[10-May-19 06:49 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5808Fucked for production and fucked for the environment
5809
5810[10-May-19 06:49 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5811you would really need to not have free trade in order to force the world to not use coke to make steal
5812
5813[10-May-19 06:50 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5814I mean I hear Republicans make that argument for why we shouldn't bother to do anything about climate change (in the U.S.) because China will just make it without those restrictions anyway.... but we see China moving towards cleaner production as well.
5815
5816[10-May-19 06:50 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5817Cuba got it’s agriculture to be completely sustainable didn’t it
5818
5819[10-May-19 06:50 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5820china is state capitalist
5821
5822[10-May-19 06:51 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5823and it's the only country on track to meet it's obligations to the paris climate accord
5824
5825[10-May-19 06:51 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5826I believe China is planning to be mostly fossil fuel free by 2030
5827
5828[10-May-19 06:51 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5829because it has govt planning and the govt are doing alot to reduce emissions
5830
5831[10-May-19 06:51 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5832I'm just saying the "some other country will just ignore the regulation" argument decreases with each passing year.
5833
5834[10-May-19 06:52 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5835Yea it just requires governments to bring their production under strict control
5836
5837[10-May-19 06:52 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5838And heavily regulate output
5839
5840[10-May-19 06:52 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5841Nah, it requires a carbon tax domestically and a carbon tariff for imported goods.
5842
5843[10-May-19 06:52 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5844People will pay the tax
5845
5846[10-May-19 06:52 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5847Taxation on goods doesn’t deter things
5848
5849[10-May-19 06:53 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5850Sure it does
5851
5852[10-May-19 06:53 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5853a carbon tax wouldn't work
5854
5855[10-May-19 06:53 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5856if you just put in a carbon tax then steel companies will charge more for steel
5857
5858[10-May-19 06:53 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5859Millions of people in New York still smoke despite the highest taxes on cigs
5860
5861[10-May-19 06:53 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5862are people going to stop needing the steal?
5863
5864[10-May-19 06:53 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5865Steel companies will charge more for steel and other steel companies that can produce steel in a greener way will outcompete them.
5866
5867[10-May-19 06:53 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5868ofc so the steel industry will shrink and lose customers.
5869
5870[10-May-19 06:54 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5871You need to not accept trades from countries and companies that don’t comply with environmental regulations
5872
5873[10-May-19 06:54 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5874You can accept trades, you just charge a carbon tariff if they don't comply to account for the cost of the carbon dioxide emissions associated with making their product.
5875
5876[10-May-19 06:54 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5877but what you are missing is that there is no way to produce steal in a more green way that is not much more energy intesive and *much* more expensive than using coke.
5878
5879[10-May-19 06:54 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5880Member when Volkswagen was caught faking emissions tests
5881
5882[10-May-19 06:55 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5883okay
5884
5885[10-May-19 06:55 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5886so what is needed is for the govt to build up an entire new industiry and infrastructure based on the new system.
5887
5888[10-May-19 06:55 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5889I think it cost them $30 billion in fines, @新世紀Orby
5890
5891[10-May-19 06:56 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5892After the fact yea
5893
5894[10-May-19 06:56 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5895Those cars are still on the road polluting
5896
5897[10-May-19 06:56 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5898We need to address human consumption along with production imo
5899
5900[10-May-19 06:57 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5901The amount we produce and consume isn’t sustainable in any measure
5902
5903[10-May-19 06:57 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5904@Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism There is *no way* to produce steel more cleanly? We can't use a cleaner energy source?
5905
5906[10-May-19 06:57 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5907we *can* but the alternatives are way more expensive
5908
5909[10-May-19 06:57 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5910It also requires pilfering the earth’s resources to produce
5911
5912[10-May-19 06:58 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5913Pulling minerals out of the ground to turn into steel
5914
5915[10-May-19 06:58 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5916I mean is the socialist alternative to not use steel?
5917
5918[10-May-19 06:58 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5919and you would basically be asking the entire steal industry and it's owners to abandon all of their accumulated capital and put all of their private resources into a creating an entire new industry from scratch
5920
5921[10-May-19 06:59 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5922the socialist alternative is that the govt will use societies resources to build this new industry
5923
5924[10-May-19 06:59 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5925/ the state capitalist alternative
5926
5927[10-May-19 06:59 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5928A new steel industry?
5929
5930[10-May-19 06:59 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5931yes
5932
5933[10-May-19 06:59 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5934Produce less steel, fund the reuse and recycling of it
5935
5936[10-May-19 06:59 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5937Okay, so let me address that.
5938
5939[10-May-19 06:59 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5940If you'll give me a minute
5941
5942[10-May-19 06:59 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5943Build less skyscrapers that are monuments to wealth
5944
5945[10-May-19 07:00 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5946Build less billion dollar cars
5947
5948[10-May-19 07:00 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5949And less yachts
5950
5951[10-May-19 07:01 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5952Instead of everyone having 3 hammers, a lawnmower, an other outdoor supplies in their garage, have the community have a communal shed or something of tools that can be shared amongst the community as needed
5953
5954[10-May-19 07:02 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
5955With a carbon tax we can price the cost to society of the carbon emissions of any given process, like the production of steel. This would increase the cost of traditional methods of creating steel.
5956
5957The market would respond in multiple ways: 1) using alternatives to steel that were in the end less costly and 2) finding ways to produce steel that are less carbon intensive.
5958
5959If there is not a significant enough decrease in society's overall carbon output then that just means the carbon tax is not high enough. The beauty of this approach is that it lets the invisible hand find the most efficient solution. Because what we care about is ultimately not that we use less steel or even cleaner steel, but that we reduce carbon emissions significantly across the whole of society.
5960
5961[10-May-19 07:02 PM] ĞØĐ Graves#3101
5962Wouldn't that be time consuming for everyone
5963
5964[10-May-19 07:02 PM] ĞØĐ Graves#3101
5965Having to basically wait your turn
5966
5967[10-May-19 07:02 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
59681) this is science fiction
5969
5970[10-May-19 07:03 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5971Not necessarily
5972
5973[10-May-19 07:03 PM] ĞØĐ Graves#3101
5974Also look at the population size
5975
5976[10-May-19 07:03 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
59772) we are aware of them
5978
5979[10-May-19 07:03 PM] ĞØĐ Graves#3101
5980These ideas were made for small population groups
5981
5982[10-May-19 07:03 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5983Does your entire neighborhood mow the lawn at the exact same time
5984
5985[10-May-19 07:03 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5986Yea
5987
5988[10-May-19 07:03 PM] ĞØĐ Graves#3101
5989Assuming we're talking about America
5990
5991[10-May-19 07:03 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
5992I’m talking about smaller scale communal supply stuff
5993
5994[10-May-19 07:03 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
5995there isn no invisible hand that's going to magic up cheap green steel
5996
5997[10-May-19 07:03 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
59981) I should have said "are" instead of "were." Meaning that once you have a carbon tax, the engineering equations change.
5999
6000[10-May-19 07:04 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6001Inherently incentivizing alternatives.
6002
6003[10-May-19 07:04 PM] ĞØĐ Graves#3101
6004In a small group it would work
6005
6006[10-May-19 07:04 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
60072) Yes there is a magic invisible hand that will make greener steel.
6008
6009[10-May-19 07:04 PM] ĞØĐ Graves#3101
6010That's how things were
6011
6012[10-May-19 07:04 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
6013Like if your neighborhood has 30 houses, you’d maybe need 3-8 lawnmowers communally shared so that everyone would have access when needed
6014
6015[10-May-19 07:04 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6016Since greener steel will have a smaller carbon tax.
6017
6018[10-May-19 07:04 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
6019And you don’t need 30 lawnmowers
6020
6021[10-May-19 07:04 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6022It is straightforward.
6023
6024[10-May-19 07:04 PM] ĞØĐ Graves#3101
6025But how connected everyone is and the population size, it would be nearly impossible to split everyone into such small communities
6026
6027[10-May-19 07:05 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
6028@JuicyJuuce will you adjust the carbon tax so green steel is always cheaper despite production
6029
6030[10-May-19 07:05 PM] ĞØĐ Graves#3101
6031Unless a lot of the population spread across America
6032
6033[10-May-19 07:05 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6034No, because green steel is not the ultimate goal. Lowering society's overall carbon emissions to a sustainable level is.
6035
6036[10-May-19 07:05 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
6037@ĞØĐ Graves it’s not impossible, current communities are already split up based on neighborhood, cities are split into districts and also neighborhoods
6038
6039[10-May-19 07:05 PM] ĞØĐ Graves#3101
6040Which I guess would work
6041
6042[10-May-19 07:06 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6043So rather than have to get government to fiddle with each industry, you set a $/tonne price for CO2 emissions that addresses taht problem.
6044
6045[10-May-19 07:06 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
6046How will green steel be cheaper than
6047
6048[10-May-19 07:06 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
6049It’ll cost more to produce due to infrastructure
6050
6051[10-May-19 07:06 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6052It will be cheaper with the carbon tax taken into account
6053
6054[10-May-19 07:06 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
6055But the carbon tax won’t be adjusted so it’s cheaper
6056
6057[10-May-19 07:06 PM] ĞØĐ Graves#3101
6058Well
6059
6060[10-May-19 07:06 PM] ĞØĐ Graves#3101
6061Not really
6062
6063[10-May-19 07:06 PM] ĞØĐ Graves#3101
6064Most "communities" are based on people in the city
6065
6066[10-May-19 07:06 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
6067So you can’t be certain that the carbon tax on steel will always be more expensive than green steel
6068
6069[10-May-19 07:07 PM] ĞØĐ Graves#3101
6070But that would be too large for this idea
6071
6072[10-May-19 07:07 PM] ĞØĐ Graves#3101
6073You would have to break up dozens of small portions
6074
6075[10-May-19 07:07 PM] ĞØĐ Graves#3101
6076And I think people would rather choose to all come together with each other and live as a larger community
6077
6078[10-May-19 07:07 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
6079@ĞØĐ Graves large cities are already broken up like this, smaller cities with a main street usually aren’t, but there is often neighborhoods off the main streets
6080
6081[10-May-19 07:07 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
6082how can this be done faster by "the invisible hand" than it can by govt? the carbon tax would be ignored unless it was so steep it would basically cause a huge stock market crash and generalised recession as lots of industries collapse. In which case it would cause huge nock on social and economic problems due to all of the capital destroyed all of the speculators who would have lost money people who lost jobs etc and the economy in this condition might not be strong enough for private capitalists to find the investment to fund the mass transtitions that are needed.
6083
6084[10-May-19 07:07 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6085The goal is not green steel, it is reduced carbon emissions. If green alternatives to steel are so expensive that they still can't compete with a carbon tax than society will just have to deal with steel being more expensive. The result will be that other materials will become more attractive.
6086
6087[10-May-19 07:08 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6088You don't do it suddenly, you phase it in.
6089
6090[10-May-19 07:08 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
6091@ĞØĐ Graves probably, I’m just advocating that smaller scare sharing of home improvement hardware is ideal for controlling production
6092
6093[10-May-19 07:08 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
6094Smaller scale*
6095
6096[10-May-19 07:09 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
6097How that town/community organizes on a larger scale is a different problem
6098
6099[10-May-19 07:09 PM] ĞØĐ Graves#3101
6100Maybe
6101
6102[10-May-19 07:10 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
6103why would we not instead why wouldn;t the govt simply set targets for how much steel companies are allowed to produce using coke and then use at least some measure of central planning and state resources to support the existing companies making the transtion?
6104
6105[10-May-19 07:10 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
6106i.e state capitalism
6107
6108[10-May-19 07:10 PM] ĞØĐ Graves#3101
6109Now it seems like more businesses are buying home improvement hardware than people
6110
6111[10-May-19 07:10 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6112Because that is far less efficient than the invisible hand.
6113
6114[10-May-19 07:10 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
6115Like what @ĞØĐ Graves
6116
6117[10-May-19 07:10 PM] ĞØĐ Graves#3101
6118People used to do a lot of home work themselves
6119
6120[10-May-19 07:10 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
6121no it isn't
6122
6123[10-May-19 07:10 PM] ĞØĐ Graves#3101
6124But now there are so many businesses
6125
6126[10-May-19 07:10 PM] ĞØĐ Graves#3101
6127At least where I live right
6128
6129[10-May-19 07:11 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6130yea huh
6131
6132[10-May-19 07:11 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
6133It put that on people not really having the time to actually do home improvement stuff
6134
6135[10-May-19 07:11 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
6136Which could still be organized
6137
6138[10-May-19 07:11 PM] ĞØĐ Graves#3101
6139Exactly
6140
6141[10-May-19 07:11 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
6142it's less efficient at making money for the onwers of the company
6143
6144[10-May-19 07:11 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
6145Having community members who like home improvement, volunteer for it when needed
6146
6147[10-May-19 07:11 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6148In your system you have to depend on politicians finding an economically efficient solution out of the goodness of their hearts.
6149
6150[10-May-19 07:11 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
6151you would be able to run down the current steel industry and build a new one much quicker
6152
6153[10-May-19 07:12 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
6154in astate capitalist system like china the govt would simply be forcing and working with existing companies
6155
6156[10-May-19 07:12 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6157In my system the government only needs to implement a simple tax and lets the market come up with solutions around that. That requires *far less* assumptions of goodness of heart from politicians.
6158
6159[10-May-19 07:12 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
6160Having communal shared spaces for hobbyists and others is a good idea though
6161
6162[10-May-19 07:13 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
6163telling them to switch production and seeing what support they needed to practically do it
6164
6165[10-May-19 07:13 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6166Sure and in state capitalist systems like China you have billionaire politicians claiming to be devout communists enriching themselves with the great power they have over their economy.
6167
6168[10-May-19 07:13 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
6169There’s some construction workshops that have tools and workbenches for you to use. And you have the benefit of working around other people that can help you if needed. @ĞØĐ Graves
6170
6171[10-May-19 07:13 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
6172you also have a society moving towards green production much faster than the west
6173
6174[10-May-19 07:13 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
6175https://youtu.be/ejfpEmzC6-8
6176
6177[10-May-19 07:14 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
6178The guy talks about it in this video
6179
6180[10-May-19 07:14 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6181I mean they are improving from a more dirty state. I don't think they are cleaner than the west.
6182
6183[10-May-19 07:15 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
6184in china the govt has told the car industry what perventage of cars they can produce that use petrol and they will rapidly increase the proportion of electric cars over the next decade.
6185
6186[10-May-19 07:15 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
6187china produces way more solar panels tha the west
6188
6189[10-May-19 07:15 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
6190they are investing much more in nuclear and renewables
6191
6192[10-May-19 07:16 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6193I'm just saying that there was a reason China moved from more state control to less: market forces are better at generating productivity. Productivity translates to cheaper products. A carbon tax would allow market forces solve the problem of producing steel or alternatives most cheaply.
6194
6195[10-May-19 07:17 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6196And you can say they make more solar panels and I can say they emit more CO2 than the U.S. and Europe combined. It's not a good measuring stick, although I love that they are doing it.
6197
6198[10-May-19 07:18 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
6199ok so you need a certai amount of things engineered in order to create all of these new indistries right?
6200
6201[10-May-19 07:18 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6202Look, we have a fundamental disagreement about whether or not central planning is best.
6203
6204[10-May-19 07:19 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6205China's economy improved greatly as they converted more of their economy from central control to the market.
6206
6207[10-May-19 07:20 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
6208why do you think each individual steel firm investing in a dozen r and d projects to invent those things alone in competition will be more efficent than having govt use universities to create a series of teams with state funding who share research then give their products to the whole steel industry.?
6209
6210[10-May-19 07:21 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6211It doesn't have to be either or.
6212
6213[10-May-19 07:21 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
6214why did the us govt have a centrally planned space program rather than get private firms to build them rockets and buy the best?
6215
6216[10-May-19 07:22 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6217I mean they have used private companies to build the rockets.
6218
6219[10-May-19 07:22 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6220And prices have plummeted.
6221
6222[10-May-19 07:22 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6223It was also an extreme national security issue since, honestly, we all know the space program was mostly about creating intercontentinal ballistic missles.
6224
6225[10-May-19 07:22 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
6226yes but the govt didn;t need the rockets in the 2010's they needed them to be ready to beat the USSR's space program
6227
6228[10-May-19 07:22 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
6229and the free market wasn't going to do it
6230
6231[10-May-19 07:23 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
6232the govt could do it much faster.
6233
6234[10-May-19 07:23 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6235The space program was a thinly veiled military program.
6236
6237[10-May-19 07:23 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6238On both sides.
6239
6240[10-May-19 07:23 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
6241it was yes?
6242
6243[10-May-19 07:23 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6244It was yes.
6245
6246[10-May-19 07:24 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
6247the govt of both countries had a national objective that had to be accomplished within a series of decades
6248
6249[10-May-19 07:24 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
6250JJ how old are you again?
6251
6252[10-May-19 07:24 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
6253the USSR's centrally planned program was incredibly successful.
6254
6255[10-May-19 07:24 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6256I think I'm 60 now according to some.
6257
6258[10-May-19 07:24 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6259It keeps going up.
6260
6261[10-May-19 07:24 PM] Crezilin#1718
626206
6263
6264[10-May-19 07:24 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
6265did the US govt wait for private firms to catch up? or did it just pool it's resources and start making rockets
6266
6267[10-May-19 07:25 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
6268answer boi
6269
6270[10-May-19 07:25 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6271Look, if you want to ignore the sensitive military component I'm honestly not interested in arguing this.
6272
6273[10-May-19 07:25 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
6274what?
6275
6276[10-May-19 07:26 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
6277what does that have to do with anything? you think the US had an option to win the space race without a govt planned program with govt resources funding public research?
6278
6279[10-May-19 07:26 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6280I'm not arguing against government funding of research.
6281
6282[10-May-19 07:26 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6283If you want to check my roles again, I'm not a libertarian.
6284
6285[10-May-19 07:27 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6286The private market is not good at efficiently producing a product where the only customer is the government.
6287
6288[10-May-19 07:27 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
6289jj
6290
6291[10-May-19 07:27 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
6292can i join democrats
6293
6294[10-May-19 07:28 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6295hard pass
6296
6297[10-May-19 07:28 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
6298y
6299
6300[10-May-19 07:28 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
6301i agre with dems the most
6302
6303[10-May-19 07:28 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
6304the free market is not the best way of completing large national projects within the span of a few decades
6305
6306[10-May-19 07:29 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
6307i'm not a free marketeer
6308
6309[10-May-19 07:29 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
6310the govt let's the private market produce all of it's other militairy goods
6311
6312[10-May-19 07:29 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
6313
6314https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/576551408460103690/1ezcn8kdgex21.png
6315
6316[10-May-19 07:29 PM] Crezilin#1718
6317*the free market is not the best way of completing unprofitable large national  projects within the span of a few decades
6318
6319[10-May-19 07:29 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6320Well I think we've made our arguments. The overwhelming majority of economists believe that a carbon tax is the best way to reduce carbon emissions compared to more intrusive government schemes. 🤷
6321
6322[10-May-19 07:30 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
6323yeah, steep carbon tax
6324
6325[10-May-19 07:30 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
6326carbon past a certain threshold is taxed
6327
6328[10-May-19 07:30 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
6329@Crezilin  like overhauling the steel industry to green production in a few decades inevitably will be?
6330
6331[10-May-19 07:31 PM] Crezilin#1718
6332Why would we do that?
6333
6334[10-May-19 07:31 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
6335because we have to reduce green house emissions to zero asap
6336
6337[10-May-19 07:31 PM] Crezilin#1718
6338But no one else is going to do that, especially developing nations.
6339
6340[10-May-19 07:32 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
6341just do carbon tax
6342
6343[10-May-19 07:32 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
6344why do you need more intrusion
6345
6346[10-May-19 07:32 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
6347if not then there will be *even more* of a need for govt planning to deal with the worst case scenarios of climate change
6348
6349[10-May-19 07:32 PM] Crezilin#1718
6350Maybe climate change will make it easier to abolish the state. ^^
6351
6352[10-May-19 07:33 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
6353china is within the goals set by the paris climate accord and is trying to do more.
6354
6355[10-May-19 07:33 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
6356ok you dumbass
6357
6358[10-May-19 07:33 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
6359explain the paris accord to me please
6360
6361[10-May-19 07:33 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
6362:)
6363
6364[10-May-19 07:33 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
6365what ACTUALLY happened
6366
6367[10-May-19 07:33 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
6368countries have to reduce emissions by a certain amount within a time frame
6369
6370[10-May-19 07:33 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
6371wrong
6372
6373[10-May-19 07:34 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
6374according to a treaty they sighned
6375
6376[10-May-19 07:34 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
6377still wrong
6378
6379[10-May-19 07:34 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
6380what actually happened was countries sent in goals that they made themselves
6381
6382[10-May-19 07:34 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
6383and most were shit
6384
6385[10-May-19 07:34 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
6386the us was the only one that did much
6387
6388[10-May-19 07:34 PM] Crezilin#1718
6389Didn't we pull out of that garbage treaty?
6390
6391[10-May-19 07:34 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
6392The US isn't even meeting it's commitments
6393
6394[10-May-19 07:34 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
6395china said they would try and have their emissions plateau in 2030
6396
6397[10-May-19 07:34 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
6398we left
6399
6400[10-May-19 07:35 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
6401which we should
6402
6403[10-May-19 07:35 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
6404it wasn't close to meeting it's commitments ever
6405
6406[10-May-19 07:35 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
6407unless other countries are held to the same standards
6408
6409[10-May-19 07:35 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
6410the US did fuck all
6411
6412[10-May-19 07:35 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
6413nobody else did anything anyway
6414
6415[10-May-19 07:35 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
6416was literally a PR stunt from obama
6417
6418[10-May-19 07:35 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
6419china did
6420
6421[10-May-19 07:36 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
6422what did they agree to
6423
6424[10-May-19 07:36 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
6425they are overshooting their targets anyway
6426
6427[10-May-19 07:36 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
6428doesn't matter unless we talk about what their targets were
6429
6430[10-May-19 07:36 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
6431while all private countries are failing to meet them
6432
6433[10-May-19 07:37 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
6434are you seeing what i'm saying
6435
6436[10-May-19 07:37 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
6437it doesn't matter how their doing if we don't talk about their goals
6438
6439[10-May-19 07:37 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
6440one was peak emissions by 2030
6441
6442[10-May-19 07:37 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
6443so they agreed to increase their emissions for the next 14 years
6444
6445[10-May-19 07:38 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
6446and the cherry on top
6447
6448[10-May-19 07:38 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
6449http://en.people.cn/n3/2017/1103/c90000-9288577.html
6450
6451[10-May-19 07:38 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
6452here is a source
6453
6454[10-May-19 07:38 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
6455the us govt did a study, and predicted that china would peak in 2030
6456
6457[10-May-19 07:38 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
6458they agreed to keep doing the same thing
6459
6460[10-May-19 07:38 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
6461the agreement was an absolute sham
6462
6463[10-May-19 07:38 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
6464i'll admit, china is doing better
6465
6466[10-May-19 07:39 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
6467but they're still the #1 emitter
6468
6469[10-May-19 07:39 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
6470and have been for a while iirc
6471
6472[10-May-19 07:39 PM] Crezilin#1718
6473I mean that's literally the Chinese government posting that but ok.
6474
6475[10-May-19 07:39 PM] nudel#9073
6476```I mean overall you guys are not really providing data to support your argument. It is a novel claim (to me) that increased real income does not correlate with increased standard of living.``` I provided numerous examples of how living conditions could stay stagnant or decrease as income increases. You were the one who claimed that capitalism has, across the board, increased living standards, and you have provided no data to support this.
6477
6478[10-May-19 07:39 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
6479"China’s carbon emission intensity during the 12th Five-Year Plan period (2011-2015) has decreased by 21.8 percent. And its carbon dioxide emissions per unit of GDP is set to be reduced by 18 percent by 2020 from 2015, according to China’s reducing greenhouse-gas emissions program during the 13th Five-Year Plan period (2016-2020)." "In addition, statistics by China National Coal Association shows that China’s coal consumption in the first three quarters this year was 2.84 billion tons, 2.4 percent lower than the previous year, while its electric energy generated from water, nuclear, and wind power rose by 21.1 percent on a year-on-year basis."
6480
6481[10-May-19 07:41 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
6482china has only been trying to cut emissions relatively recently
6483
6484[10-May-19 07:41 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
6485and their state capitalist policies have been much more successful than letting the free market handle it.
6486
6487[10-May-19 07:41 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
6488i never said i supported a free market solution tho
6489
6490[10-May-19 07:42 PM] Crezilin#1718
6491Is there someone that isn't the government capable of talking about their government? Oh right. There isn't.
6492
6493[10-May-19 07:43 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
6494what?
6495
6496[10-May-19 07:43 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
6497is there someone other than the chinese govt capable of talking about the chinese govt?
6498
6499[10-May-19 07:43 PM] Crezilin#1718
6500What you're posting is from the Chinese government.
6501
6502[10-May-19 07:44 PM] Crezilin#1718
6503It's like if you asked me if Anarcho-Capitalism will work.
6504
6505[10-May-19 07:44 PM] Crezilin#1718
6506Of course I'm going to say yes.
6507
6508[10-May-19 07:44 PM] nudel#9073
6509@JuicyJuuce If a carbon tax actually made the large-scale use of fossil fuels unprofitable, bourgeois governments would never pass them.
6510
6511[10-May-19 07:45 PM] Crezilin#1718
6512I'm basically asking if anyone else concurs with their own assessment of themselves.
6513
6514[10-May-19 07:45 PM] Crezilin#1718
6515Or if only state run news agrees.
6516
6517[10-May-19 07:45 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
6518https://www.nrdc.org/experts/barbara-finamore/good-news-chinas-dropping-coal-consumption-putting-brakes-global-carbon  https://www.euractiv.com/section/energy/news/china-eclipses-europe-as-2020-solar-power-target-is-smashed/ https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/2017/01/06/china-five-year-plan-energy-solar-record-2016/
6519
6520[10-May-19 07:46 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
6521here are 3 sources that aren't from the chinese govt in any way
6522
6523[10-May-19 07:46 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6524@nudel You're are gonna have to find some better bait to get me to engage.
6525
6526[10-May-19 07:47 PM] nudel#9073
6527@JuicyJuuce Well, you clearly haven't cared about "engaging" at all, since you have made multiple completely unsubstantiated assertions about the development of capitalism and its effects on living standards.
6528
6529[10-May-19 07:47 PM] Crezilin#1718
6530I just don't like state media like how you don't like wikipedia.
6531
6532[10-May-19 07:48 PM] nudel#9073
6533It seems that you're more willing to dismiss any statement you disagree with as "bait" as you are to find any evidence to back up your wild claims.
6534
6535[10-May-19 07:48 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6536*makes unsubstantiated assertion*
6537
6538*accuses other of making unsubstantiated assertion*
6539
6540[10-May-19 07:49 PM] nudel#9073
6541You made yours first, but ignoring that, I'm not sure how I'm supposed to provide empirical evidence for a claim about a hypothetical situation?
6542
6543[10-May-19 07:49 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6544These guys are having a nice exchange, I'm gonna let them continue.
6545
6546[10-May-19 07:50 PM] nudel#9073
6547Either
65481) you're denying that modern states serve the interest of large capital
65492) denying that oil and gas companies are large capital
6550or
65513) denying that making oil and gas unprofitable would go directly against the interests of oil and gas companies
6552
6553[10-May-19 07:50 PM] nudel#9073
6554All of which are frankly absurd.
6555
6556[10-May-19 07:51 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
6557You literally can’t deny #1
6558
6559[10-May-19 07:51 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
6560PACs and SuperPACs and Lobbyists control the government in America
6561
6562[10-May-19 07:52 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6563Alright, if Crezlin has no more to say in response to Tsar, than I'll respond.
6564
6565[10-May-19 07:52 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6566You good, @Crezilin ?
6567
6568[10-May-19 07:52 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
65693... 2... 1... ok
6570
6571[10-May-19 07:52 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
6572what if we stop lobbyists with campaign finance laws
6573
6574[10-May-19 07:52 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
6575more strict ones
6576
6577[10-May-19 07:52 PM] Crezilin#1718
6578I guess?
6579
6580[10-May-19 07:52 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
6581Overturn citizens united
6582
6583[10-May-19 07:52 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
6584Woa
6585
6586[10-May-19 07:52 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6587I mean, the market will always seek profit, so your standard of "make it unprofitable" is a strawman that I never claimed.
6588
6589[10-May-19 07:52 PM] Crezilin#1718
6590I just wanted non-state sources.
6591
6592[10-May-19 07:53 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6593He provided some.
6594
6595[10-May-19 07:53 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
6596Bernie’s been talking about how we need to do that for a while now
6597
6598[10-May-19 07:53 PM] Crezilin#1718
6599Yeah.
6600
6601[10-May-19 07:53 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6602/She I don't know
6603
6604[10-May-19 07:53 PM] Crezilin#1718
6605Pretty sure that's a guy.
6606
6607[10-May-19 07:53 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
6608Who?
6609
6610[10-May-19 07:53 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6611tsar
6612
6613[10-May-19 07:54 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
6614Ah
6615
6616[10-May-19 07:54 PM] nudel#9073
6617Yes, so if oil and gas are still profitable, "the market will seek profit" by making use of such a cheap resource, no?
6618
6619[10-May-19 07:55 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6620If you put a large enough tax, the market will adjust to using less of it.
6621
6622[10-May-19 07:55 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
6623But you need to get the government to approve the tax
6624
6625[10-May-19 07:55 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6626indeed
6627
6628[10-May-19 07:55 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
6629i am a guy yes
6630
6631[10-May-19 07:55 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6632i'm not a libertarian
6633
6634[10-May-19 07:55 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6635or an ancap
6636
6637[10-May-19 07:55 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
6638Which with the lobbyists and PACs controlling politicians wouldn’t be very possible
6639
6640[10-May-19 07:55 PM] Crezilin#1718
6641@Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism Oppressor.
6642
6643[10-May-19 07:55 PM] Crezilin#1718
6644😄
6645
6646[10-May-19 07:56 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6647I mean, I think you're wrong. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/climate-consensus-97-per-cent/2018/oct/26/canada-passed-a-carbon-tax-that-will-give-most-canadians-more-money
6648
6649[10-May-19 07:56 PM] nudel#9073
6650Right, why would the government approve the tax when it would hurt both the oil and gas industries tremendously as well as the mass of other industries which would need to use more expensive energy?
6651
6652[10-May-19 07:56 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
6653Canada isn’t America
6654
6655[10-May-19 07:56 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6656And it isn't outer space aliens either.
6657
6658[10-May-19 07:56 PM] nudel#9073
6659Canada is still continuing to use oil and gas.
6660
6661[10-May-19 07:56 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6662It is a "bourgeois capitalist" contry.
6663
6664[10-May-19 07:56 PM] nudel#9073
6665And to extract it from indigenous lands.
6666
6667[10-May-19 07:56 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
6668Yea and their system isn’t as completely corrupt as America’s
6669
6670[10-May-19 07:56 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6671So we have moved the goalposts from the government won't pass a carbon tax to something else.
6672
6673[10-May-19 07:57 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
6674We were talking about America
6675
6676[10-May-19 07:57 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
6677Not Canada
6678
6679[10-May-19 07:57 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6680I agree, Orby, it isn't as corrupt.
6681
6682[10-May-19 07:57 PM] nudel#9073
6683I never said the government wouldn't pass any carbon tax.
6684
6685[10-May-19 07:57 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6686Hmm here I thought we were talking about capitalist countries.
6687
6688[10-May-19 07:57 PM] nudel#9073
6689I said it wouldn't pass one that would actually hinder the use of cheap energy to a significant degree.
6690
6691[10-May-19 07:57 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6692And I never said the carbon tax needed to make something unprofitable for it to be effective.
6693
6694[10-May-19 07:58 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6695no, you said it wouldn't go so far as to make it unprofitable.
6696
6697[10-May-19 07:58 PM] nudel#9073
6698How else could it be effective?
6699
6700[10-May-19 07:58 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6701by making it... wait for it... *less profitable.*
6702
6703[10-May-19 07:58 PM] nudel#9073
6704Right, the implication being that without making it unprofitable, cheap energy will continue to be used.
6705
6706[10-May-19 07:58 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6707no nuance to be found here
6708
6709[10-May-19 07:58 PM] nudel#9073
6710So you want to continue carbon emissions, just "less" of them.
6711
6712[10-May-19 07:58 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6713Yes
6714
6715[10-May-19 07:58 PM] nudel#9073
6716That's... complete clownery.
6717
6718[10-May-19 07:58 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
6719the canadian carbon tax isn't nearly enough for say steel companies to justify not using coke amymore. It's barely even enough for it to make sense for regular industries to move towards cleaner alternatives where the clean alternatives aren't that much more expensive.
6720
6721[10-May-19 07:59 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6722okay
6723
6724[10-May-19 07:59 PM] nudel#9073
6725Considering the environmental path that we're on.
6726
6727[10-May-19 07:59 PM] nudel#9073
6728We can't just "lower" carbon emissions, it's necessary to have a negative carbon footprint as a species.
6729
6730[10-May-19 07:59 PM] nudel#9073
6731If society is going to continue existing.
6732
6733[10-May-19 07:59 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6734I mean net carbon emissions need to move in the direction of getting to zero, but *net* doesn't mean that we literally don't emit any carbon.
6735
6736[10-May-19 08:00 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6737That is... impossible.
6738
6739[10-May-19 08:00 PM] nudel#9073
6740I didn't say that we can't emit any carbon.
6741
6742[10-May-19 08:00 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
6743If it’s still profitable to emit carbon it won’t go away
6744
6745[10-May-19 08:00 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6746pick a stance you two
6747
6748[10-May-19 08:00 PM] nudel#9073
6749I implied that we need to use no fossil fuels.
6750
6751[10-May-19 08:01 PM] nudel#9073
6752*no
6753
6754[10-May-19 08:01 PM] nudel#9073
6755Btw.
6756
6757[10-May-19 08:01 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6758hahah ~~fewer~~ *no*
6759
6760[10-May-19 08:01 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6761this is great
6762
6763[10-May-19 08:01 PM] nudel#9073
6764You're a dishonest fuck.
6765
6766[10-May-19 08:01 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6767right
6768
6769[10-May-19 08:01 PM] nudel#9073
6770I made a single typo.
6771
6772[10-May-19 08:01 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
6773it is possible though not necessary to replace all industrial processes that emit carbon
6774
6775[10-May-19 08:01 PM] nudel#9073
6776It's interesting to me that the example of a carbon tax you gave was a first-world consumption economy.
6777
6778[10-May-19 08:01 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
6779No fossil fuels does not mean no carbon emissions
6780
6781[10-May-19 08:01 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6782*I meant to type "no" but my fingers slipped and I typed "fewer"*
6783
6784[10-May-19 08:02 PM] nudel#9073
6785@JuicyJuuce Please make an actual argument.
6786
6787[10-May-19 08:02 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6788hahaha
6789
6790[10-May-19 08:02 PM] Crezilin#1718
6791How will poor nations industrialize without cheap fossil fuels?
6792
6793[10-May-19 08:02 PM] nudel#9073
6794Instead of acting like a child.
6795
6796[10-May-19 08:02 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6797i love it
6798
6799[10-May-19 08:02 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
6800:thebigsad:
6801
6802[10-May-19 08:02 PM] nudel#9073
6803Anyways.
6804
6805[10-May-19 08:02 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6806I appreciate you providing me with a good laugh.
6807
6808[10-May-19 08:02 PM] nudel#9073
6809@Crezilin with nuclear power?
6810
6811[10-May-19 08:03 PM] Crezilin#1718
6812So you think nuclear waste is worth it?
6813
6814[10-May-19 08:03 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
6815Nuclear power is much much safer than fossil fuels
6816
6817[10-May-19 08:03 PM] nudel#9073
6818We can store nuclear waste.
6819
6820[10-May-19 08:03 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
6821Nuclear waste can be recycled
6822
6823[10-May-19 08:03 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6824Anyway, the goal is to lower carbon emissions, not lower fossil fuel use. The latter is a method and we shouldn't hold methods over the ultimate goal.
6825
6826[10-May-19 08:03 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
6827you can use molton salt reactors
6828
6829[10-May-19 08:03 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
6830^
6831
6832[10-May-19 08:03 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
6833Thorium salt reactors can’t melt down, dont proliferate, and use cheap fuel
6834
6835[10-May-19 08:03 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
6836nuclear waste in the ground > carbon in the air
6837
6838[10-May-19 08:03 PM] Crezilin#1718
6839Why don't we store nuclear waste then instead of burying it in random places?
6840
6841[10-May-19 08:03 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
6842What lmfao
6843
6844[10-May-19 08:04 PM] nudel#9073
6845I think it's interesting that the example of a carbon tax you chose was a first-world consumption economy and not a country that actually manufactures the consumer goods that the people in the first world use. @JuicyJuuce
6846
6847[10-May-19 08:04 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
6848That’s storing it
6849
6850[10-May-19 08:04 PM] Crezilin#1718
6851In the city I used to live they almost turned the outskirts into a nuclear dumping ground but our guys told them to fuck off I guess.
6852
6853[10-May-19 08:04 PM] nudel#9073
6854And it's also interesting that Canada is continuing to ruin indigenous lands in order to get oil.
6855
6856[10-May-19 08:04 PM] nudel#9073
6857Despite this carbon tax.
6858
6859[10-May-19 08:04 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6860@nudel Do you think I'm opposed to China implementing a carbon tax?
6861
6862[10-May-19 08:04 PM] nudel#9073
6863I didn't say you were.
6864
6865[10-May-19 08:04 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
6866you can use nuclear waste as a fuel that could already power the whole world economy for 30 years just in terms of the amount we curently have stored never mind in terms of all the nuclear fuel on the planet
6867
6868[10-May-19 08:04 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
6869Their argument is that a carbon tax isn’t enough
6870
6871[10-May-19 08:05 PM] nudel#9073
6872I said that these carbon taxes will not actually be implemented in such a way as to significantly alter the use of fossil fuels under bourgeois governments.
6873
6874[10-May-19 08:05 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6875@nudel Any country that doesn't implement a carbon tax should get a carbon tariff put on their exports.
6876
6877[10-May-19 08:05 PM] nudel#9073
6878This isn't about what you think, it's about how carbon emissions are actually handled under capitalism.
6879
6880[10-May-19 08:05 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
6881China isn't impementing a carbon tax becaus there is no point
6882
6883[10-May-19 08:05 PM] Crezilin#1718
6884Did we ever find uranium in asteroids?
6885
6886[10-May-19 08:05 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6887@nudel I mean that is a nice claim and fits with the socialist narrative.
6888
6889[10-May-19 08:05 PM] nudel#9073
6890hahahaha
6891
6892[10-May-19 08:05 PM] nudel#9073
6893It's just objectively true.
6894
6895[10-May-19 08:05 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6896sweet
6897
6898[10-May-19 08:05 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
6899i'm pretty sure we have
6900
6901[10-May-19 08:06 PM] Crezilin#1718
6902Then I guess it could work.
6903
6904[10-May-19 08:06 PM] Crezilin#1718
6905But I'm concerned with 9/11 via nuclear plant.
6906
6907[10-May-19 08:06 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
6908LOL
6909
6910[10-May-19 08:06 PM] Crezilin#1718
6911That's my only concern is sabotage.
6912
6913[10-May-19 08:06 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6914@nudel Strange how regulations have a long history of improving harmful impacts to the environment over time *even in evil capitalist countries*.
6915
6916[10-May-19 08:06 PM] nudel#9073
6917Keep trying to reduce carbon emissions by 5% a year while enough CO2 is still being absorbed into the oceans to acidify and kill off coral reefs.
6918
6919[10-May-19 08:07 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
6920molton salt reactors can't melt down
6921
6922[10-May-19 08:07 PM] nudel#9073
6923Strange how regulations have a long history of failing to stop climate change from happening.
6924
6925[10-May-19 08:07 PM] nudel#9073
6926Strange how we're already past the point of no return in spite of your beloved reforms.
6927
6928[10-May-19 08:07 PM] Crezilin#1718
6929I've never heard of us using molton salt reactors.
6930
6931[10-May-19 08:07 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
6932if they go over a certain tempreture then you can put a metal plug at the base of the reaction and when the plug melts then the reacor falls into a cooling vat.
6933
6934[10-May-19 08:08 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6935right, and ~~communist~~ i mean ~~socialist~~ i mean state capitalist China took a while to get its environmental act together it seems as well.
6936
6937[10-May-19 08:08 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
6938so they are pretty fool proof compared to old style fission reactors
6939
6940[10-May-19 08:08 PM] nudel#9073
6941I never claimed China was communist or socialist.
6942
6943[10-May-19 08:08 PM] nudel#9073
6944What the hell are you talking about?
6945
6946[10-May-19 08:08 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6947Well it depends on if it helps your current argument or not.
6948
6949[10-May-19 08:08 PM] nudel#9073
6950Uh.
6951
6952[10-May-19 08:08 PM] nudel#9073
6953I think you're confusing me with someone else.
6954
6955[10-May-19 08:09 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6956I'm generalizing, yes.
6957
6958[10-May-19 08:09 PM] nudel#9073
6959What?
6960
6961[10-May-19 08:09 PM] Crezilin#1718
6962People in here have said China was a good example of Socialism etc.
6963
6964[10-May-19 08:09 PM] nudel#9073
6965Generalizing who?
6966
6967[10-May-19 08:09 PM] nudel#9073
6968Yeah, Dengists.
6969
6970[10-May-19 08:09 PM] nudel#9073
6971I'm not a Dengist.
6972
6973[10-May-19 08:09 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
6974Thorium salt reactors aren’t really used because they aren’t as profitable and their fuel can’t be used for nuclear warheads
6975
6976[10-May-19 08:09 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6977So was China's pollution before because it was evil capitalist and now that they are improving it is because they are benevolent socialist?
6978
6979[10-May-19 08:09 PM] Crezilin#1718
6980China is state capitalism.
6981
6982[10-May-19 08:09 PM] nudel#9073
6983China's pollution is still state capitalist.
6984
6985[10-May-19 08:10 PM] nudel#9073
6986By the way, I don't think state capitalism is "evil" - Lenin himself wrote that it was a step in the right direction if handled by a dictatorship of the proletariat.
6987
6988[10-May-19 08:10 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
6989Okay, so we can't ascribe any of their successes to socialist influence.
6990
6991[10-May-19 08:10 PM] Crezilin#1718
6992Also they say stuff like state capitalism doesn't exist.
6993
6994[10-May-19 08:10 PM] Crezilin#1718
6995Trying to prove China is socialist.
6996
6997[10-May-19 08:10 PM] nudel#9073
6998What?
6999
7000[10-May-19 08:10 PM] Crezilin#1718
7001I swear if I could go back 5000 messages and find shit that's beens aid.
7002
7003[10-May-19 08:10 PM] Crezilin#1718
7004been said*
7005
7006[10-May-19 08:10 PM] nudel#9073
7007What "successes", paying more people $1.90 a day?
7008
7009[10-May-19 08:11 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7010No, greening their economy.
7011
7012[10-May-19 08:11 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7013It's good, so obviously that is their socialist influences, yes?
7014
7015[10-May-19 08:11 PM] nudel#9073
7016Reducing carbon emissions to any degree isn't "greening".
7017
7018[10-May-19 08:11 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7019excellent dodges
7020
7021[10-May-19 08:11 PM] nudel#9073
7022They are still a leading producer of emissions.
7023
7024[10-May-19 08:11 PM] nudel#9073
7025How am I dodging anything?
7026
7027[10-May-19 08:12 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7028You know my point, we all know that you know my point, and you are going to still play dumb.
7029
7030[10-May-19 08:12 PM] nudel#9073
7031Your "point" is that if China did something good, I would ascribe it to socialism, which I wouldn't.
7032
7033[10-May-19 08:13 PM] nudel#9073
7034I'm not "playing dumb", you're deliberately confusing me with Dengists in order to somehow construe a perfectly consistent position as inconsistent.
7035
7036[10-May-19 08:13 PM] Clapham#0791
7037wow I just saw the comment where JJ thought people were seriously advocating for 0 carbon emissions.
7038
7039[10-May-19 08:13 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7040So capitalism is greening China's economy... or is the "primary" stage of socialism that is doing it? hard to tell...
7041
7042[10-May-19 08:13 PM] Clapham#0791
70430 NET
7044
7045[10-May-19 08:13 PM] Clapham#0791
7046NET
7047
7048[10-May-19 08:13 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7049you got that backwards, clapham
7050
7051[10-May-19 08:13 PM] nudel#9073
7052I have never claimed that China was in "primary stage socialism".
7053
7054[10-May-19 08:13 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7055that was your fellow reds
7056
7057[10-May-19 08:13 PM] nudel#9073
7058Again.
7059
7060[10-May-19 08:13 PM] nudel#9073
7061You are making shit up.
7062
7063[10-May-19 08:13 PM] Clapham#0791
7064no, you misunderstood what they said
7065
7066[10-May-19 08:13 PM] Clapham#0791
7067they said net
7068
7069[10-May-19 08:13 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
7070I’m advocating negative carbon emissions
7071
7072[10-May-19 08:13 PM] Clapham#0791
7073lol
7074
7075[10-May-19 08:13 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
7076We suck carbon out of the atmosphere and jet it into the sun
7077
7078[10-May-19 08:13 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7079Okay, so China's greening has nothing to do with anything socialists have done.
7080
7081[10-May-19 08:13 PM] Clapham#0791
7082net 0 and negative
7083
7084[10-May-19 08:13 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7085Hail capitalism!
7086
7087[10-May-19 08:13 PM] nudel#9073
7088I disagree that China is "greening".
7089
7090[10-May-19 08:14 PM] Crezilin#1718
7091Ok so what I learned is, molten salt reactors are too expensive to make for now but won't be soon.
7092
7093[10-May-19 08:14 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7094that's nice
7095
7096[10-May-19 08:14 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7097semantics are an excellent form of debate
7098
7099[10-May-19 08:14 PM] Clapham#0791
7100why did JJ get banned from DC though? 😦
7101
7102[10-May-19 08:14 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
7103@Clapham reasons
7104
7105[10-May-19 08:14 PM] nudel#9073
7106You know what's a better form of debate?
7107
7108[10-May-19 08:14 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7109@Clapham I disagreed with bjartur about the scope of a question.
7110
7111[10-May-19 08:14 PM] nudel#9073
7112Claiming that your opponent said something that they didn't.
7113
7114[10-May-19 08:14 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7115And bjartur then promptly deleted the whole conversation.
7116
7117[10-May-19 08:14 PM] Clapham#0791
7118it's not because JJ is disingenuous at debating
7119
7120[10-May-19 08:14 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7121And the mods voted to ban me.
7122
7123[10-May-19 08:14 PM] Clapham#0791
7124as can be shown here
7125
7126[10-May-19 08:15 PM] Clapham#0791
7127it's cuz socialist conspiracyu
7128
7129[10-May-19 08:15 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7130Just stating the facts.
7131
7132[10-May-19 08:15 PM] covfefe2020#7724
7133I didnt
7134
7135[10-May-19 08:15 PM] nudel#9073
7136```
7137that was your fellow reds
7138```
7139
7140[10-May-19 08:16 PM] nudel#9073
7141I can't believe I didn't see this before, LMFAO
7142
7143[10-May-19 08:16 PM] Clapham#0791
7144he loves that shit
7145
7146[10-May-19 08:16 PM] Clapham#0791
7147"you socialists"
7148
7149[10-May-19 08:16 PM] Clapham#0791
7150"you communists", etc
7151
7152[10-May-19 08:16 PM] Clapham#0791
7153it's funny af
7154
7155[10-May-19 08:16 PM] nudel#9073
7156"You socialists", as if I somehow, by association, agree with everything that a Dengist has ever said.
7157
7158[10-May-19 08:16 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
7159Generalizations are the best form of debate
7160
7161[10-May-19 08:16 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7162Anyway, back to what we were discussing... whether we are talking about the U.S., China, or basically any country that has ever existed, there is always a delay between when pollution becomes a problem and when that problem is properly addressed.
7163
7164[10-May-19 08:17 PM] nudel#9073
7165We've known that carbon emissions have been a problem for what, 4 decades?
7166
7167[10-May-19 08:17 PM] Clapham#0791
7168are we talking about pollution in general or C02 specifically?
7169
7170[10-May-19 08:17 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7171My statement applies to both.
7172
7173[10-May-19 08:17 PM] nudel#9073
7174And our economy has failed to address it, because capitalism operates on a logic of constant expansion.
7175
7176[10-May-19 08:17 PM] Clapham#0791
7177more like 5 decades btw
7178
7179[10-May-19 08:17 PM] Clapham#0791
7180but ok mayve 4
7181
7182[10-May-19 08:17 PM] Clapham#0791
7183https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/exxon-knew-about-climate-change-almost-40-years-ago/
7184
7185[10-May-19 08:18 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7186More that there are powerful vested interests that oppose it.
7187
7188[10-May-19 08:18 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
7189Inb4 Tesla
7190
7191[10-May-19 08:18 PM] nudel#9073
7192Those "powerful vested interests" are a manifestation of capital.
7193
7194[10-May-19 08:18 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7195I use that article all the time.
7196
7197[10-May-19 08:19 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7198Well "manifestations of capital" have a history of losing environmental debates eventually.
7199
7200And yes it sucks that this one is taking as long as it is.
7201
7202[10-May-19 08:19 PM] nudel#9073
7203Why is it taking so long, though?
7204
7205[10-May-19 08:19 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7206Like I said,
7207
7208[10-May-19 08:19 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7209the vested interests behind this are more powerful than usual
7210
7211[10-May-19 08:19 PM] nudel#9073
7212They can lose as many environmental debates as they want, they still have the means to continue carbon emissions.
7213
7214[10-May-19 08:19 PM] nudel#9073
7215Right, and what created those "vested interests"?
7216
7217[10-May-19 08:20 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7218I'm not talking about losing debates, I'm talking about losing legislatively
7219
7220[10-May-19 08:20 PM] nudel#9073
7221Did they appear out of the aether?
7222
7223[10-May-19 08:20 PM] nudel#9073
7224You said debates.
7225
7226[10-May-19 08:20 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7227metaphorical societal debates
7228
7229[10-May-19 08:20 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7230Like we can talk about polluting in rivers to, forcing automakers to make pollution improvements to cars, to outlawing aerosols that damage the Ozone layer
7231
7232[10-May-19 08:21 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7233all of these the "manifestations of capital" fought and fought but eventually lost
7234
7235[10-May-19 08:22 PM] nudel#9073
7236As far as I understand it, aerosols had replacements that would have been more profitable than eco-friendly energy.
7237
7238[10-May-19 08:22 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7239oof
7240
7241[10-May-19 08:22 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
7242there is a big difference between getting companies to stick a calalytic converter on something to compeltley remaking the entire thing and changing how it's powered
7243
7244[10-May-19 08:22 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7245you don't understand it then
7246
7247[10-May-19 08:23 PM] nudel#9073
7248Same applies to car manufacturers.
7249
7250[10-May-19 08:23 PM] nudel#9073
7251Please make an argument beyond "you don't understand it".
7252
7253[10-May-19 08:23 PM] nudel#9073
7254There wasn't any single industry that would have been eliminated by the environmental legislation you mentioned before.
7255
7256[10-May-19 08:23 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7257I mean companies were forced to make environmental changes that hurt their profits
7258
7259[10-May-19 08:23 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7260any way you cut it
7261
7262[10-May-19 08:23 PM] nudel#9073
7263Sure.
7264
7265[10-May-19 08:24 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7266comparing it to some hypothetical higher standard to try to salvage your worldview is just desperate
7267
7268[10-May-19 08:24 PM] nudel#9073
7269What "hypothetical standard"?
7270
7271[10-May-19 08:24 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7272Like "yes they improved but they could have improved more so really the capitalists still won!"
7273
7274[10-May-19 08:24 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
7275My higher standard is not destroying the earth
7276
7277[10-May-19 08:24 PM] nudel#9073
7278What?
7279
7280[10-May-19 08:24 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
7281Which isn’t being addressed fast enough
7282
7283[10-May-19 08:24 PM] nudel#9073
7284No, I'm not saying that "the capitalists" won.
7285
7286[10-May-19 08:25 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7287please explain this statement then: "aerosols had replacements that would have been more profitable than eco-friendly energy."
7288
7289[10-May-19 08:25 PM] nudel#9073
7290Where did I say that anyone "won"?
7291
7292[10-May-19 08:25 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7293and how it somehow applies to all the environmental battles that capital interests have lost over the years.
7294
7295[10-May-19 08:25 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
7296somebody made a #what-if-the-child-consents channel
7297
7298[10-May-19 08:25 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
7299lol
7300
7301[10-May-19 08:26 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
7302politicians where forced into making token concessions to the eviromental movement
7303
7304[10-May-19 08:26 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
7305WHaT YOuRE DesCRibinG iS ePhEbIlia
7306
7307[10-May-19 08:26 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
7308that's not anywhere near addressing the actual problem
7309
7310[10-May-19 08:26 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7311@CpnNevosity that was @covfefe2020
7312
7313[10-May-19 08:26 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
7314adressing the problem would be too costly
7315
7316[10-May-19 08:26 PM] covfefe2020#7724
7317hm>
7318
7319[10-May-19 08:26 PM] nudel#9073
7320I'm saying that none of those regulations got rid of the economy being run according to constant and accelerating expansion of production, and so they only pushed the point where capitalism's environmental impacts undermined its ability to function at all further into the future.
7321
7322[10-May-19 08:27 PM] nudel#9073
7323Instead of actually eliminating the drive to get to that point.
7324
7325[10-May-19 08:27 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
7326omg
7327
7328[10-May-19 08:27 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
7329turnips is 12
7330
7331[10-May-19 08:27 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
7332is turnips actually 12?
7333
7334[10-May-19 08:27 PM] covfefe2020#7724
7335aGeIsM
7336
7337[10-May-19 08:27 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7338@Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism by "token concessions" are you referring to provably effective methods that successfully dealt with the ozone hole problem?
7339
7340[10-May-19 08:27 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
7341i thoght he was like 15
7342
7343[10-May-19 08:27 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
7344sounds it
7345
7346[10-May-19 08:27 PM] covfefe2020#7724
7347hes 14
7348
7349[10-May-19 08:27 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
7350Unsurprising
7351
7352[10-May-19 08:27 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
7353yes
7354
7355[10-May-19 08:27 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
7356
7357https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/576566053237424149/24disptpfqw21.png
7358
7359[10-May-19 08:27 PM] covfefe2020#7724
7360like me
7361
7362[10-May-19 08:27 PM] covfefe2020#7724
7363*obligatory fbi joke
7364
7365[10-May-19 08:28 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7366@nudel So your argument is simply that capitalism continues to exist so the environmental regulations were unsuccessful. Yawn.
7367
7368[10-May-19 08:28 PM] nudel#9073
7369Uh
7370
7371[10-May-19 08:28 PM] nudel#9073
7372They were successful at dealing with the individual problems that they sought to deal with.
7373
7374[10-May-19 08:28 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7375"none of those regulations got rid of the economy being run according to constant and accelerating expansion of production"
7376
7377[10-May-19 08:28 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7378great
7379
7380[10-May-19 08:28 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7381so they were sucessful
7382
7383[10-May-19 08:28 PM] nudel#9073
7384They didn't seek to abolish the accelerating degradation of the environment in general though.
7385
7386[10-May-19 08:28 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7387ozone regulation solved the ozone hole problem
7388
7389[10-May-19 08:28 PM] nudel#9073
7390They were successful within a narrow frame.
7391
7392[10-May-19 08:29 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
7393that barely affected anyones profts the new ways of making aerosols weren't much more intensive if more intensive at all than the prior methods. There is a huge difference between that and phasing out petrol cars or getting rid of coke in steel production.
7394
7395[10-May-19 08:29 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7396dumping in rivers regulations solved the dumping in rivers problem
7397
7398[10-May-19 08:29 PM] nudel#9073
7399You're tackling these problems on an individual basis rather than a systematic one.
7400
7401[10-May-19 08:29 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7402okay
7403
7404[10-May-19 08:29 PM] nudel#9073
7405And as capitalism's expansion accelerates, so does its environmental impact, making successfully dealing with these problems on a case-by-case basis progressively more difficult.
7406
7407[10-May-19 08:30 PM] nudel#9073
7408What we are seeing with climate change now is that we are, in all likelihood, at the point where that cannot be done.
7409
7410[10-May-19 08:30 PM] nudel#9073
7411CO2 levels are irreversibly at 400 ppm.
7412
7413[10-May-19 08:31 PM] Clapham#0791
7414it's a good thing we didn't export production to foreign countries which don't have weak to no environmental regulations
7415
7416[10-May-19 08:31 PM] Clapham#0791
7417oh wait
7418
7419[10-May-19 08:31 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7420Okay so we have moved from capitalist countries not being able to solve this issue to it being difficult for them to solve the issue.
7421
7422[10-May-19 08:31 PM] nudel#9073
7423What?
7424
7425[10-May-19 08:31 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7426"Okay so we have moved from capitalist countries not being able to solve this issue to it being difficult for them to solve the issue."
7427
7428[10-May-19 08:31 PM] nudel#9073
7429No, I maintain that climate change is impossible to solve within capitalism.
7430
7431[10-May-19 08:32 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7432I thought it was just "progressively more difficult" ?
7433
7434[10-May-19 08:32 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
7435we aren't disputing that the problems can;t be solved most of these problems have had proposed solutions for decades the problem is that capitalists won't implement them
7436
7437[10-May-19 08:32 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
7438not that they can't implement them
7439
7440[10-May-19 08:32 PM] nudel#9073
7441I said that environmental problems in general are getting progressively more difficult to deal with on an individual basis.
7442
7443[10-May-19 08:32 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7444buk is
7445
7446[10-May-19 08:33 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7447I mean capitalist countries are taking steps
7448
7449[10-May-19 08:33 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7450So they are making progress
7451
7452[10-May-19 08:33 PM] nudel#9073
7453Those steps arent sufficient.
7454
7455[10-May-19 08:33 PM] nudel#9073
7456We need negative net carbon emissions.
7457
7458[10-May-19 08:33 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7459I don't disagree.
7460
7461[10-May-19 08:33 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
7462no buk is pointing out that the capitalist system is the obstacle to getting these things implemented
7463
7464[10-May-19 08:33 PM] Clapham#0791
7465yeah, they signed onto the paris agreement
7466
7467[10-May-19 08:33 PM] Clapham#0791
7468oh wait
7469
7470[10-May-19 08:34 PM] Clapham#0791
7471the Paris agreement was the most perfunctory agreement anyway, which Trump proceeded to take the US off of
7472
7473[10-May-19 08:34 PM] nudel#9073
7474And climate change is the newest iteration of that process (the process of environmental crises getting progressively more severe and difficult to deal with on an individual basis), and I am arguing that it has gotten to the point where capitalism is incapable of solving it.
7475
7476[10-May-19 08:34 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
7477the logic of the system puts the control over implementing these things onto the hands of people who might not benefit much from them and would be greatly put out by them.
7478
7479[10-May-19 08:34 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7480I mean I fully agree that we haven't done enough.
7481
7482[10-May-19 08:34 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
7483i.e lose shit tons of their revenues from their investments
7484
7485[10-May-19 08:34 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
7486so they won't
7487
7488[10-May-19 08:34 PM] nudel#9073
7489Again, we are irreversably at 400 ppm CO2
7490
7491[10-May-19 08:35 PM] Epsilon#6703
7492No amount of "government regulation" is going to fix the structural issue of capitalism, if that's what we're talking about
7493
7494[10-May-19 08:35 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7495I mean that is the socialist perspective.
7496
7497[10-May-19 08:35 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7498Obviously I disagree lol
7499
7500[10-May-19 08:35 PM] nudel#9073
7501How are statistics about CO2 concentrations "the socialist perspective"?
7502
7503[10-May-19 08:35 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7504nice straw man
7505
7506[10-May-19 08:36 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7507I was responding to @Epsilon
7508
7509[10-May-19 08:36 PM] nudel#9073
7510I'm not straw manning, you just seem to consider everything a "socialist" says to be "the socialist perspective", as if it is a singular thing.
7511
7512[10-May-19 08:36 PM] nudel#9073
7513You haven't proposed a plan for getting negative net carbon emissions within capitalism.
7514
7515[10-May-19 08:36 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7516have I not?
7517
7518[10-May-19 08:36 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7519I think I clearly have
7520
7521[10-May-19 08:36 PM] Epsilon#6703
7522because you can't
7523
7524[10-May-19 08:36 PM] nudel#9073
7525you proposed a carbon tax
7526
7527[10-May-19 08:36 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7528there it is!
7529
7530[10-May-19 08:36 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
7531Carbon tax literally can’t solve the problem of over production
7532
7533[10-May-19 08:37 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7534it isn't meant to
7535
7536[10-May-19 08:37 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
7537And over consumption
7538
7539[10-May-19 08:37 PM] nudel#9073
7540but you conceded that that would only make carbon "less profitable" to produce
7541
7542[10-May-19 08:37 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7543right
7544
7545[10-May-19 08:37 PM] nudel#9073
7546So it would have to be quite an extreme tax, no?
7547
7548[10-May-19 08:37 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
7549It’s just more expensive to overconsume
7550
7551[10-May-19 08:37 PM] Epsilon#6703
7552it really is not possible, capitalism is inherently designed for destruction
7553
7554[10-May-19 08:37 PM] nudel#9073
7555to reduce carbon emissions that far.
7556
7557[10-May-19 08:37 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7558because again you can emit carbon while also having net negative emissions (mind blowing, I know)
7559
7560[10-May-19 08:37 PM] nudel#9073
7561Straw man.
7562
7563[10-May-19 08:37 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
7564What
7565
7566[10-May-19 08:37 PM] nudel#9073
7567I never claimed that you couldn't/
7568
7569[10-May-19 08:38 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7570"extreme" is in the eye of the beholder
7571
7572[10-May-19 08:38 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7573but yes, the carbon tax would have to be sufficient
7574
7575[10-May-19 08:38 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
7576It’s not sufficient
7577
7578[10-May-19 08:38 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
7579It can’t be
7580
7581[10-May-19 08:38 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7582it can
7583
7584[10-May-19 08:38 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7585i said so
7586
7587[10-May-19 08:38 PM] nudel#9073
7588As in, the tax would have to be so heavy that a hamburger would cost hundreds of dollars because of how expensive it is to pay for all the methane that cows produce.
7589
7590[10-May-19 08:38 PM] Epsilon#6703
7591why even attempt to reason with a system that is actively working against the common people
7592
7593[10-May-19 08:38 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7594nah
7595
7596[10-May-19 08:39 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
7597the effect of a carbon tax that was high enough to work would be a massive recession not dramatic economic tranformation
7598
7599[10-May-19 08:39 PM] nudel#9073
7600https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZDsSnpYZrw yeah.
7601
7602[10-May-19 08:39 PM] nudel#9073
7603Inb4 minuteearth is a socialist propaganda channel.
7604
7605[10-May-19 08:39 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7606@nudel If a hamburger was that detrimental to the environment, then okay. Do you believe a hamburger is that detrimental?
7607
7608[10-May-19 08:39 PM] nudel#9073
7609Uh, yeah
7610
7611[10-May-19 08:39 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
7612it objectively is
7613
7614[10-May-19 08:39 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7615okay then
7616
7617[10-May-19 08:39 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7618tax it
7619
7620[10-May-19 08:39 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
7621do you know how methane works?
7622
7623[10-May-19 08:39 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7624i'm glad we all agree
7625
7626[10-May-19 08:40 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7627i do!
7628
7629[10-May-19 08:40 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
7630good
7631
7632[10-May-19 08:40 PM] nudel#9073
7633We would have to tax it A LOT. Watch that video.
7634
7635[10-May-19 08:40 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
7636100$ hamburgers here we go
7637
7638[10-May-19 08:41 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7639I don't dispute that we should tax it in accordance with it's CO2-equivalent impact.
7640
7641[10-May-19 08:41 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
7642No one would be able to afford anything at current levels of production
7643
7644[10-May-19 08:41 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7645False!
7646
7647[10-May-19 08:42 PM] Clapham#0791
7648Step 1: Cut and/or burn down the amazon rainforest.
7649Step 2: Cultivate methane producing livestock
7650Step 3: Ship meat from the livestock 1/4 of the way across the world.
7651Step 4: Put it in the supermarket for consumers who have plenty of other food alternatives.
7652Step 5: ??????
7653Step 6: Profit!
7654
7655[10-May-19 08:42 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
76565$ hamburger grows in price like 100x
7657
7658[10-May-19 08:42 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
7659This is ok
7660
7661[10-May-19 08:42 PM] nudel#9073
7662According to that video, the cost of the environmental damages of meat and dairy production, if put on the shoulders of consumers, would add 120% to the price of the average US household's grocery bill. @JuicyJuuce
7663
7664[10-May-19 08:42 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7665https://www.sixdegreesnews.org/archives/10261/the-carbon-footprint-of-a-cheeseburger (tldr: one hamburger = half a gallon of gasoline)
7666
7667[10-May-19 08:42 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
7668Make the customers pay! Not the companies!
7669
7670[10-May-19 08:43 PM] Epsilon#6703
7671yeah, what would we do without our ceo daddies
7672
7673[10-May-19 08:43 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
7674Who will I be able to beat off to if Bezos and Musk are dead -probably crezilin
7675
7676[10-May-19 08:44 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7677I mean both customers and companies pay when you tax a company's product. That's basic economics.
7678
7679[10-May-19 08:44 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7680Less of the product gets sold.
7681
7682[10-May-19 08:44 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
7683lot's of companies would collapse if you implemented this an industry can't completly re invent it's entire production process when you have just slashed their revenue and shot up their costs
7684
7685[10-May-19 08:44 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7686You don't do it overnight, again.
7687
7688[10-May-19 08:45 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
7689Company goes out of business because they can’t sell 100$ hamburgers
7690
7691[10-May-19 08:45 PM] nudel#9073
7692we don't have time to wait
7693
7694[10-May-19 08:45 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
7695yeah you couldn;t do it at the pace we need
7696
7697[10-May-19 08:45 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
7698you could do it over hundreds of years
7699
7700[10-May-19 08:45 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7701We don't have time for a communist revolution to happen either.
7702
7703[10-May-19 08:45 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
7704or maybe a hundred years
7705
7706[10-May-19 08:45 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
7707Not with that attitude
7708
7709[10-May-19 08:45 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7710Because that is certainly not on the verge of happening.
7711
7712[10-May-19 08:45 PM] nudel#9073
7713```We don't have time for a communist revolution to happen either.
7714``` I mean that is a nice claim and fits with the capitalist narrative.
7715
7716[10-May-19 08:45 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7717My path forward is roughly 1000x more likely.
7718
7719[10-May-19 08:45 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7720(more or less)
7721
7722[10-May-19 08:45 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
7723And also won’t fix the problem
7724
7725[10-May-19 08:46 PM] nudel#9073
7726*1000x more likely to get us killed
7727
7728[10-May-19 08:46 PM] Epsilon#6703
7729^
7730
7731[10-May-19 08:46 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
7732^
7733
7734[10-May-19 08:46 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
7735good then then capitalism will collapse anyway once we can't produce enough food
7736
7737[10-May-19 08:46 PM] Epsilon#6703
7738Accelrationism at it's finest
7739
7740[10-May-19 08:46 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7741Well complaining about the timescale of a feasible solution to the timescale of an unfeasible one is not really useful.
7742
7743[10-May-19 08:46 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
7744I can’t wait for floods to drop housing prices on the coast and raise housing prices inland so he poorest people die in the floods
7745
7746[10-May-19 08:46 PM] nudel#9073
7747your solution isn't feasible
7748
7749[10-May-19 08:47 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
7750or govts will have to plan food production and ration distribution and we will have socialism
7751
7752[10-May-19 08:47 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7753I'd rather a 20 year gradual plan than a fantasy that will never come about.
7754
7755[10-May-19 08:47 PM] nudel#9073
7756also a communist revolution could happen as quickly as you like.
7757
7758[10-May-19 08:47 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
7759Sell those inland houses to rich people for pure profit :Taxation:
7760
7761[10-May-19 08:47 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7762brb
7763
7764[10-May-19 08:47 PM] nudel#9073
7765there will be no "20 year gradual plan".
7766
7767[10-May-19 08:47 PM] nudel#9073
7768That is, in your words, a fantasy that will never come about.
7769
7770[10-May-19 08:47 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7771more likely than communism
7772
7773[10-May-19 08:47 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
7774you think you will get the results you need in 20 years with a gradual plan?
7775
7776[10-May-19 08:47 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7777brb tho for real
7778
7779[10-May-19 08:47 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
7780a communist revolution is theoretically possible
7781
7782[10-May-19 08:47 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
7783@covfefe2020 ill be back hold up
7784
7785[10-May-19 08:48 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
7786an advantage it has over your pipe dream
7787
7788[10-May-19 08:48 PM] Clapham#0791
7789we is fucked, yo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8hnAB43O4g
7790
7791[10-May-19 08:48 PM] covfefe2020#7724
7792ok
7793
7794[10-May-19 09:03 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7795back
7796
7797[10-May-19 09:04 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7798@Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism So a substantial carbon tax is not even theoretically possible?
7799
7800[10-May-19 09:09 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
7801No
7802
7803[10-May-19 09:10 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7804Is that an honest response?
7805
7806[10-May-19 09:10 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
7807Yes
7808
7809[10-May-19 09:10 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7810I'd like to hear if Tsar concurs.
7811
7812[10-May-19 09:11 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
7813I meant it as no it’s not possible
7814
7815[10-May-19 09:11 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
7816To clear up my response
7817
7818[10-May-19 09:17 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
7819it's not theoretically possible that it would lead to a global transition towards green energy fast enough to counter climate change
7820
7821[10-May-19 09:18 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
7822it's very improbable that capitalist govts would attempt to implement a very severe one anyway.
7823
7824[10-May-19 09:19 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7825You would have to define what it means to counter climate change. If you mean 100%, then of course not because the climate has already changed due to CO2 emissions.
7826
7827[10-May-19 09:20 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
7828i mean in order to avoid things like large parts of middle east becomeing uninhabitable and coastal cities being put at risk etc
7829
7830[10-May-19 09:21 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7831Well I guess we aren't going to come to an agreement on whether or not it is "theoretically impossible" or not.
7832
7833[10-May-19 09:28 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7834I will say that I think looking at the trend in public opinion offers some data on the issue:
7835https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/576581227092639755/unknown.png
7836
7837[10-May-19 09:28 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7838<https://morningconsult.com/2018/12/06/more-voters-linking-human-activity-to-climate-change/>
7839
7840[10-May-19 09:28 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7841that's in the U.S.
7842
7843[10-May-19 09:28 PM] covfefe2020#7724
7844india causes climate change
7845
7846[10-May-19 09:29 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7847A wild Republican appears.
7848
7849[10-May-19 09:29 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7850
7851https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/576581730371239991/unknown.png
7852
7853[10-May-19 09:30 PM] Crezilin#1718
7854It's because some people get caught lying about it.
7855
7856[10-May-19 09:31 PM] Crezilin#1718
7857And so then everyone becomes skeptical of the rest of the data.
7858
7859[10-May-19 09:31 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7860okay
7861
7862[10-May-19 09:31 PM] Crezilin#1718
7863It's kind of a "I don't trust anyone" topic in the U.S.
7864
7865[10-May-19 09:31 PM] Crezilin#1718
7866At least for the right.
7867
7868[10-May-19 09:31 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7869yea
7870
7871[10-May-19 09:32 PM] Clapham#0791
7872george bush did 9/11
7873
7874[10-May-19 09:32 PM] Clapham#0791
7875pizzagate
7876
7877[10-May-19 09:32 PM] Clapham#0791
7878etc
7879
7880[10-May-19 09:32 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7881I will say that conservative politicians (and thus conservative media) overstate to their audience any "lying" that has occurred, and they do that intentionally to sway their audience.
7882
7883[10-May-19 09:32 PM] Clapham#0791
7884ted cruz is the zodiac killer
7885
7886[10-May-19 09:32 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
7887pizzagate was real tho
7888
7889[10-May-19 09:33 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
7890they faked a shooting and said there wasnt a basement in the place to keep people from talking about it
7891
7892[10-May-19 09:33 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
7893duh
7894
7895[10-May-19 09:33 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
7896yall are false flagging everyone
7897
7898[10-May-19 09:33 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
7899all shootings are fake unless a democrat does the shooting
7900
7901[10-May-19 09:33 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
7902then its real
7903
7904[10-May-19 09:33 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
7905also
7906
7907[10-May-19 09:33 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
7908all shootings are secretly leftists
7909
7910[10-May-19 09:33 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
7911and shootings arent a problem
7912
7913[10-May-19 09:33 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7914@Crezilin I mean the "climategate email scandal" was hilariously distorted and conservatives never bothered to correct the record.
7915
7916[10-May-19 09:35 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7917But I will concede that liberal politicians shouldn't be making predictions about the climate that aren't heavily supported by the science.
7918
7919[10-May-19 09:35 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7920Which they have unfortunately.
7921
7922[10-May-19 09:35 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7923Al Gore made some claim that he had to walk back.
7924
7925[10-May-19 09:35 PM] Crezilin#1718
7926Oh I was talking about people working for printing the data and seeing it was skewed one way and then politicians claiming we'll all die in 20 years (20 years ago) and stuff like that.
7927
7928[10-May-19 09:35 PM] Crezilin#1718
7929Pretty sure that's the guy who made that 20 year claim.
7930
7931[10-May-19 09:35 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7932That's an exaggeration.
7933
7934[10-May-19 09:39 PM] Clapham#0791
7935inb4 Venus 2200
7936
7937[11-May-19 12:02 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
7938
7939https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/576620168029929473/ZZgMcUQMUTGFD5grDvmiCjBnl55Mqcr5dbIFpqUegO1JOokVWc73WFDnr2bQCuwT_R_iHh6eiBy9V0hHAlAtLKptlFLb5oCQnVdy.png
7940
7941[11-May-19 12:16 AM] turnips#7959
7942Ok
7943
7944[11-May-19 12:33 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
7945
7946https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/576627998787108864/59762346_342804749710593_3637288497380851712_n.png
7947
7948[11-May-19 12:34 AM] turnips#7959
7949Fun
7950
7951[11-May-19 01:05 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7952@Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism source that it was the U.S. government that cut off the electricity and water? I'm pretty sure that is fake news.
7953
7954[11-May-19 01:06 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7955"The former ambassador is long gone, recalled months ago by Mr. Maduro. Even before the rest of the diplomats left, the embassy had stopped providing services like passport renewals."
7956
7957<https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/09/us/venezuela-embassy-protests.html>
7958
7959[11-May-19 01:06 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
7960https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/venezuelan-embassy-goes-dark-as-standoff-intensifies-on-streets-of-washington/2019/05/09/e6263124-7272-11e9-9eb4-0828f5389013_story.html
7961
7962[11-May-19 01:07 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7963I bet no one is paying the bill.
7964
7965[11-May-19 01:07 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
7966There is 100% people in that embassy
7967
7968[11-May-19 01:07 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7969Sure, protesters went in.
7970
7971[11-May-19 01:07 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7972Embassy staff all left.
7973
7974[11-May-19 01:07 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
7975Protestors are outside
7976
7977[11-May-19 01:07 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
7978They’ve been protesting maduro
7979
7980[11-May-19 01:08 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
7981There’s video of diplomats getting slurs shouted at them
7982
7983[11-May-19 01:08 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
7984While walking in
7985
7986[11-May-19 01:09 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7987The embassy staff left before this dust up started as far as I can tell. It seems to have been completely unoccupied before pro-Maduro American protesters went inside and took up habitation.
7988
7989[11-May-19 01:10 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7990"But Pepco, the building’s electricity provider, told activists that the U.S.-backed opposition government had ordered the power be shut off, Code Pink co-founder Medea Benjamin said."
7991
7992[11-May-19 01:10 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
7993Epic
7994
7995[11-May-19 01:10 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
7996Guaidó ordered it to be shut off then
7997
7998[11-May-19 01:10 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
7999So basically with the U.S. recognizing Guido as President, they gave Guido's ambassador authority over the property.
8000
8001[11-May-19 01:11 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8002So the power company had to comply with his ambassador.
8003
8004[11-May-19 01:11 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8005🤷
8006
8007[11-May-19 01:11 AM] covfefe2020#7724
8008Epic
8009
8010[11-May-19 01:13 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8011Which is against international law?
8012
8013[11-May-19 01:13 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8014Pro-Maduro people are launching missiles:
8015
8016"Ten protesters have been arrested over the past week, according to the Secret Service. Most have been charged with simple assault or throwing “missiles” ..."
8017
8018[11-May-19 01:13 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8019It's not up to the US who controls the embassy
8020
8021[11-May-19 01:13 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8022"— in many cases, a reference to food that activists have been trying to launch past police barricades and the raised hands of pro-Guaidó demonstrators."
8023
8024[11-May-19 01:13 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8025😃
8026
8027[11-May-19 01:14 AM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
8028maduro supporters are Hamas proxies confirmed
8029
8030[11-May-19 01:14 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8031Oh man did they throw stuff my bad then  who cares about international law or diplomacy
8032
8033[11-May-19 01:14 AM] covfefe2020#7724
8034That’s a long way to Tel Aviv
8035
8036[11-May-19 01:14 AM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
8037well we all know how Palestinians love rockets
8038
8039[11-May-19 01:14 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8040I mean it is an odd situation legally
8041
8042[11-May-19 01:15 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8043Not really
8044
8045[11-May-19 01:15 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8046I want to look up now who occupied the Chinese embassy when the U.S. refused to recognize the PRC for so many years.
8047
8048[11-May-19 01:15 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8049The US manufactured an opposition g9vt that has no legitimacy then forced the actual govt out of the embassu
8050
8051[11-May-19 01:15 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8052Yea, they elected Guaido to be basically the Speaker of the House of Venezuela.
8053
8054[11-May-19 01:16 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8055It's not like Maduro declared a new legislature into existence after the Socialist Party lost the majority in the legislature.
8056
8057[11-May-19 01:16 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8058Chiang Kai Shek was much more legitimate the  guido are you kidding me
8059
8060[11-May-19 01:16 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8061Maybe but I'm just looking at precedent.
8062
8063[11-May-19 01:16 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8064To get some history.
8065
8066[11-May-19 01:17 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8067Speakers of the house aren't elected by the people
8068
8069[11-May-19 01:17 AM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
8070no one voted for Guaido to be president. even a lot of Venezuelan opposition leaders (from different parties) do not like or support him
8071
8072[11-May-19 01:17 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8073There is no precedent or constitutional reason for a speaker to declare themselves president.
8074
8075[11-May-19 01:18 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8076No one voted for the Speaker of the House of Representatives of the U.S. to be president but they still get to be president if the Presidency and Vice Presidency are vacated.
8077
8078[11-May-19 01:19 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8079Because it's specified in the constitution
8080
8081[11-May-19 01:19 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8082What does the Venezuelan constitution say?
8083
8084[11-May-19 01:20 AM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
8085except Maduro is the president, was elected president, and did not abdicate that office or was thrown out of it by some means. which is aside from the fact that even if Maduro did step down, for some reason, Guaido still would not be able to just assume office. https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/02/08/juan-guaido-the-man-who-would-be-president-of-venezuela-doesnt-have-a-constitutional-leg-to-stand-on/
8086
8087[11-May-19 01:20 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8088It doesn't say anything about the speaker declaring that he is president while the president and vice president are still alive and have been elected under the system specified in the constitution.
8089
8090[11-May-19 01:20 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8091And it says Maduro can call a constituent assembly whenever he wants.
8092
8093[11-May-19 01:21 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8094My understanding is that the people have to vote for that, not for the President to just declare it.
8095
8096[11-May-19 01:21 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8097They did vote for the members of the assembly
8098
8099[11-May-19 01:21 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8100Two votes: one to create it and another to elect representatives.
8101
8102[11-May-19 01:22 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8103That's how it was done the previous time in Venezuela.
8104
8105[11-May-19 01:22 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8106No not at all
8107
8108[11-May-19 01:24 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8109The previous constitution was proposed by Chavez govt and then implemented after it passed a public referendum. The new constitution gave the president the power to call a constituent assembly which needs to be elected and this assembly has the power to make a new constitution but that new constitution needs to be approved by a referendum.
8110
8111[11-May-19 01:24 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8112I'm looking up sources for all this at the moment.
8113
8114[11-May-19 01:29 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8115I guess someone needs to fix Wikipedia?
8116https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/576641891265806374/unknown.png
8117
8118[11-May-19 01:29 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8119You should do the honors
8120
8121[11-May-19 01:29 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8122<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Venezuelan_Constituent_Assembly_election>
8123
8124[11-May-19 01:29 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8125Oh you don't disagree with taht
8126
8127[11-May-19 01:30 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8128:I_Agree:
8129
8130[11-May-19 01:30 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8131While I search for what the new constitution says, what do you think about calling for a legislative superbody as soon as you lose power of the legislature?
8132
8133[11-May-19 01:31 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8134Is that even a little authoritarian-y in your view?
8135
8136[11-May-19 01:35 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8137Maduro is perfectly within his rights. The 1999 constituent assembly was democratically elected and it decided to make it easier to convene a new constituent assembly in the future. Maybe in hindsight that body should have been more specific about the parameters of a constituent assembly and whether it could legally over right parliament indefinitely(some sort of time period that set out when they had to propose a new constitution and disband or be re elected would have been a good idea).
8138
8139[11-May-19 01:36 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8140It's not unconstitutional or un democratic/ authoritarian  it's just a messy situation caused by alot of bad decisions and lack of foresight.
8141
8142[11-May-19 01:37 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8143Was Maduro's decision to do this a bad decision?
8144
8145[11-May-19 01:38 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8146Maduro had no part in making the constitution or voting for it that I'm aware.
8147
8148[11-May-19 01:38 AM] Clapham#0791
8149besides, the opposition decided not to take part and to boycott the national assembly
8150
8151[11-May-19 01:38 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8152He was basically forced into calling the constituent assembly because the national assembly made governing with them impossible
8153
8154[11-May-19 01:39 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8155"forced"... I guess they opposed him?
8156
8157[11-May-19 01:39 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8158It was either he called the assembly or stepped down.
8159
8160[11-May-19 01:39 AM] Clapham#0791
8161if you can't pass anything in your assembly, you do what you need to do to change that
8162
8163[11-May-19 01:39 AM] Clapham#0791
8164it's called politics
8165
8166[11-May-19 01:39 AM] Clapham#0791
8167it's literally what Theresa May tried to do in '18 (at least, increase her majority)
8168
8169[11-May-19 01:40 AM] Clapham#0791
8170wait was it 17 or 18
8171
8172[11-May-19 01:40 AM] Clapham#0791
8173'17
8174
8175[11-May-19 01:40 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8176It seems even some high ranking people in Maduro's government thought the move was unconstitutional. Like their Attorney General and the former president of their state-run TV:
8177https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/576644768860340225/unknown.png
8178
8179[11-May-19 01:40 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8180<https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/24/venezuela-nicolas-maduro-constitution-elections-delay>
8181
8182[11-May-19 01:40 AM] Clapham#0791
8183Theresa May called an election out of the blue because she thought she could get more MPs in parliament
8184
8185[11-May-19 01:41 AM] Clapham#0791
8186it's a slippery, cynical way of doing politics, but it's what was done.  The irony was that she lost her majority for her party in parliament
8187
8188[11-May-19 01:41 AM] Clapham#0791
8189that's parliamentary politics
8190
8191[11-May-19 01:42 AM] Clapham#0791
8192woah, so there is disagreement in the supposed-dictatorship?
8193
8194[11-May-19 01:42 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8195He says that it is a bad idea and against "the spirit of the constitutional texts" and I agree that when they where written if they had foreseen this scenario they would have probably designed it differently. But the constitution gives the president discression over when to call this body.
8196
8197[11-May-19 01:43 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8198And does basically provide them with a blank cheque
8199
8200[11-May-19 01:43 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8201I'm still looking for a source for that.
8202
8203[11-May-19 01:45 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8204Oh wow, it turns out that Chavez calling for a referendum for a new constitution in 1999 had no constitutional basis. This is getting messy.
8205
8206[11-May-19 01:49 AM] Clapham#0791
8207the smoking gun
8208
8209[11-May-19 01:49 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8210This is an excellent read: https://www.lawfareblog.com/constitutional-path-dictatorship-venezuela
8211
8212[11-May-19 01:50 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8213This isn't a good read at all its already incredibly misleading
8214
8215[11-May-19 01:51 AM] Clapham#0791
8216literally the most loaded paragraphs
8217
8218[11-May-19 01:52 AM] Clapham#0791
8219***In the 1970s, Venezuela was among the richest countries in the world, and, uniquely for Latin America, it maintained a robust constitutional democracy with peaceful transfers of power. Political scientists wondered whether something special was brewing in the South American country; some even dubbed it “Venezuelan exceptionalism.”***
8220
8221[11-May-19 01:52 AM] Clapham#0791
8222gimme a break lol
8223
8224[11-May-19 01:55 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8225"Pursuant to this plan, on the first day of his presidency, Chavez demanded a referendum to ask the people directly whether to call for a “constitutional convention,” an unconstitutional proceeding found nowhere in the 1961 constitution. Despite the lack of any constitutional support for this type of plebiscite, Chavez claimed that the people, through a referendum, could overthrow an existing constitution."
8226
8227[11-May-19 01:56 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8228Everything was great until the evil communists came and tried to make Cuba 2.0
8229
8230[11-May-19 01:56 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8231shitposting is not the best response
8232
8233[11-May-19 01:56 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8234If people don't like the system then it is undemocratic
8235
8236[11-May-19 01:56 AM] Clapham#0791
8237that's literally the narrative of the article.
8238
8239[11-May-19 01:57 AM] Clapham#0791
8240and I can't read spanish 😦
8241
8242[11-May-19 01:57 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8243I'd like to hear your thoughts on the paragraph I quoted.
8244
8245[11-May-19 01:57 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8246If people vote for a new system how is that not democracy?
8247
8248[11-May-19 01:57 AM] Clapham#0791
8249otherwise I'd corroborate the links provided
8250
8251[11-May-19 01:57 AM] Clapham#0791
8252the voter turnouts are low if you look at them in absence, but considering the turnouts for so-called western democracies, then, it's kind of rich
8253
8254[11-May-19 01:58 AM] Clapham#0791
8255but yeah if there's something here, fair enough
8256
8257[11-May-19 01:58 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8258I mean let's say Trump gets 51% of the vote in 2020 and then on the first day of his new term declares that we are going to vote for whether or not we have a new constitution and a simple majority wins.
8259
8260[11-May-19 01:58 AM] Clapham#0791
8261I'd need to corroborate it further though
8262
8263[11-May-19 01:59 AM] covfefe2020#7724
8264We didn’t need that musty old constitution anyway
8265
8266[11-May-19 01:59 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8267If trump promises everyone constitutional reform and he wins the presidency and then tries to get constitutional reform through a plebiscite i think that's democratic.
8268
8269[11-May-19 01:59 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8270wow
8271
8272[11-May-19 02:00 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8273so simple majorities should be able to rewrite constitutions? so much for "majority rule, minority rights" I guess.
8274
8275[11-May-19 02:00 AM] Clapham#0791
8276I mean, this idea of separation of powers essentially makes it so that nothing substantial can be done.  The status quo remains
8277
8278[11-May-19 02:00 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8279I'm British we don't have a constitution that is considered a holy document from God.
8280
8281[11-May-19 02:00 AM] Clapham#0791
8282such as can be seen in the US
8283
8284[11-May-19 02:01 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8285Parliament can pass any law they want and a referendum is considered more important than parliament in theory(although that idea is being tested).
8286
8287[11-May-19 02:01 AM] Clapham#0791
8288any progress is constantly stymied (in both directions, to be fair), but for a legitimate socialist, if you want to pass more revolutionary policies, then of course it's a barrier
8289
8290[11-May-19 02:01 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8291Fortunately the U.S. constitution does not have any provision that allows the scenario I described. Just like the Venezuelan's didn't until Chavez invented a new rule to get rid of the old constitution.
8292
8293[11-May-19 02:01 AM] Clapham#0791
8294yes in the UK, our parliament is unique
8295
8296[11-May-19 02:01 AM] Clapham#0791
8297but in the US they're obssessed with this separation of powers shit
8298
8299[11-May-19 02:02 AM] Clapham#0791
8300and nothing ever changes
8301
8302[11-May-19 02:02 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8303We haven't descended into either anarchy or dictatorship yet
8304
8305[11-May-19 02:02 AM] Clapham#0791
8306their constitution is literally 200 years+ old
8307
8308[11-May-19 02:02 AM] Clapham#0791
8309the article is comparing it to the US system as if it's this perfect democratic 'anti-authoritarian' system
8310
8311[11-May-19 02:03 AM] Clapham#0791
8312the reality is that, it was designed to keep the plebs in-line and to maintain the status-quo
8313
8314[11-May-19 02:03 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8315that's neat
8316
8317[11-May-19 02:03 AM] Clapham#0791
8318shitposting isn't the best response ?
8319
8320[11-May-19 02:04 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8321I mean if you are just going to pull this out of your ass: "it was designed to keep the plebs in-line and to maintain the status-quo"
8322
8323[11-May-19 02:04 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8324Like idk as a British person I think if someone said We can't get rid of the monarchy or change how parliament is elected by a referendum because it's unconstitutional the idea would be mad.
8325
8326[11-May-19 02:04 AM] Clapham#0791
8327https://www.minnpost.com/eric-black-ink/2017/07/how-our-political-system-built-gridlock/
8328
8329[11-May-19 02:05 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8330How can what people in a room 200 years ago decided be worth more than what everyone thinks now
8331
8332[11-May-19 02:05 AM] Clapham#0791
8333I'm referring to how the US was actually founded; by white, rich, land-owning slave owners
8334
8335[11-May-19 02:05 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8336@Clapham please quote the part of that article where it supports your point that the Constitution was created "to keep the plebs in-line"
8337
8338[11-May-19 02:06 AM] Clapham#0791
8339I didn't claim it was in the article, that's an opinion of mine
8340
8341[11-May-19 02:06 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8342Why do you think there is an electoral college?
8343
8344[11-May-19 02:06 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8345But you stated it as fact.
8346
8347[11-May-19 02:06 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8348It was a fact
8349
8350[11-May-19 02:06 AM] Clapham#0791
8351ok and now I'm telling you it's an opinion based on facts
8352
8353[11-May-19 02:06 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8354Alexander Hamilton talks about it
8355
8356[11-May-19 02:06 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8357I don't know the exact quote
8358
8359[11-May-19 02:06 AM] Clapham#0791
8360yes, the electoral college is the prime example of what I'm referring to
8361
8362[11-May-19 02:07 AM] Clapham#0791
8363the plebs can't be allowed to choose the president they elect for
8364
8365[11-May-19 02:07 AM] Clapham#0791
8366literally
8367
8368[11-May-19 02:07 AM] Clapham#0791
8369unelected people do that for you
8370
8371[11-May-19 02:07 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8372Bit he says in the federalist papers something along the lines that the "men of property"as he put it needed to keep power away from "the tyranny of the majority"
8373
8374[11-May-19 02:07 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8375Those are two different concepts.
8376
8377[11-May-19 02:08 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8378Because obviously the majority of property owners would apply.
8379
8380[11-May-19 02:08 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8381He means rich people need to be protected from poor people who might try to make then do things they don't want to.
8382
8383[11-May-19 02:08 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8384So you claim.
8385
8386[11-May-19 02:08 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8387That's literally the intent
8388
8389[11-May-19 02:08 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8390So you claim.
8391
8392[11-May-19 02:09 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8393I'm not claiming it it's explicit
8394
8395[11-May-19 02:09 AM] Clapham#0791
8396the people who founded the US wrote its constitution with their interests in mind who'd have thought?
8397
8398[11-May-19 02:10 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8399Anyway, we are pretty far from the topic we were discussing.
8400
8401[11-May-19 02:11 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8402Back to the Venezuelan constitution, the previous constitution laid out specifically ways to change it: "the constitution specified in Articles 245-248 two onerous methods of change—amendment or general reform. Both methods gave Venezuelan Congress the exclusive role to begin the process, required congressional majority votes, and, in the case of general reform, a supermajority vote and subsequent referendum. The president had almost no role in the process and was indeed explicitly prohibited from opposing amendments."
8403
8404[11-May-19 02:12 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8405(From that same article)
8406
8407[11-May-19 02:12 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8408And with Chavez's illegal move, the socialists ruled until 2015 when they lost power of the legislature, at which point Maduro called for a new constitution.
8409
8410[11-May-19 02:14 AM] Clapham#0791
8411in the same article it says...
8412
8413[11-May-19 02:14 AM] Clapham#0791
8414***Several groups challenged Chavez’s referendum in front of the Supreme Court. Facing significant political pressure, the Supreme Court allowed the referendum to take place regardless of the amendment restrictions.***
8415
8416[11-May-19 02:14 AM] Clapham#0791
8417Chavez didn't just do it
8418
8419[11-May-19 02:14 AM] Clapham#0791
8420the Supreme Court agreed with him
8421
8422[11-May-19 02:14 AM] Clapham#0791
8423***The court reasoned that the people retained ultimate sovereignty above any existing constitutional constraints. ***
8424
8425[11-May-19 02:14 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8426" Landholders ought to have a share in the government, to support these invaluable interests, and to balance and check the other. They ought to be so constituted as to protect the minority of the opulent against the majority. The senate, therefore, ought to be this body;".  It was James Madison here is the quote in full.
8427
8428[11-May-19 02:14 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8429"Although the Supreme Court initially opposed the Assembly’s absurd claim to absolute power, Chavez and assembly members threatened any potential opposition with violence."
8430
8431[11-May-19 02:16 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8432@Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism was that the agreed consensus of the authors of the constitution?
8433
8434[11-May-19 02:16 AM] Clapham#0791
8435there's a lot of completely unsubstantiated stuff in this article, which you take at complete face value
8436
8437[11-May-19 02:16 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8438It was in the federalist papers that where incredibly influential among the framers of the constitution.
8439
8440[11-May-19 02:16 AM] Clapham#0791
8441the claim of violence is unsubstantiated
8442
8443[11-May-19 02:17 AM] Clapham#0791
8444and earlier it claims *** Chavez’s electoral method distorted a 60-plus-percent popular vote in favor of his assembly candidates into more than 90 percent of Constituent Assembly seats.***
8445
8446[11-May-19 02:17 AM] Clapham#0791
8447like, huh???
8448
8449[11-May-19 02:17 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8450All of the framers where slave owners? Why does it surprise you they also wouldn't want the poor messing up their shiny new republic.
8451
8452[11-May-19 02:18 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8453Yes, racism was pretty normal back then. Doesn't really answer my question tho.
8454
8455[11-May-19 02:19 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8456I mean the answer to your question is yes but I'm not quote mining every framer
8457
8458[11-May-19 02:20 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8459When the constitution was enacted the Senate was not elected it was a self selecting group of rich people unlike the house of representatives (who you had to have property to qualify to vote for) just as Madison had wanted.
8460
8461[11-May-19 02:21 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8462The original constitution did not specify who was elligible to vote and left it up to the states to determine that.
8463
8464[11-May-19 02:21 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8465Most states said only landowners, but not all.
8466
8467[11-May-19 02:21 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8468Ok but most states had property requirements
8469
8470[11-May-19 02:22 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8471And obvs the framers knew that
8472
8473[11-May-19 02:22 AM] Clapham#0791
8474it's a bit tit-for-tat, but we're just making the point of it being rich to present the US political system as the bastion of freedom and democracy
8475
8476[11-May-19 02:22 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8477Or fetishise constitutions really
8478
8479[11-May-19 02:22 AM] Clapham#0791
8480especially with regards to the 200-odd year constitution
8481
8482[11-May-19 02:23 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8483Anyway, I think this paragraph I quoted earlier is still the most pertinent part of  our conversation:
8484
8485"the constitution specified in Articles 245-248 two onerous methods of change—amendment or general reform. Both methods gave Venezuelan Congress the exclusive role to begin the process, required congressional majority votes, and, in the case of general reform, a supermajority vote and subsequent referendum. The president had almost no role in the process and was indeed explicitly prohibited from opposing amendments."
8486
8487[11-May-19 02:23 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
8488american constitution is a big meme tbh
8489
8490[11-May-19 02:23 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
8491and the declaration
8492
8493[11-May-19 02:24 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8494I refer you to Clapham's response
8495
8496[11-May-19 02:24 AM] Clapham#0791
8497if you want to radically alter the political landscape, without a violent revolution to depose the government, you have to re-organise government to a certain extent, in particular in republics with this obsession of 'distribution of power', which just means that *nothing much changes*
8498
8499[11-May-19 02:24 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8500*The court reasoned that the people retained ultimate sovereignty above any existing constitutional constraints. *
8501
8502[11-May-19 02:25 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8503I mean, I guess that is what you call a constitutional crisis.
8504
8505[11-May-19 02:25 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8506When two branches of government decide to ignore the constitution.
8507
8508[11-May-19 02:25 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
8509member when the american constitution was like "freedom and liberty for all men *if your black ur fucked tho lol"
8510
8511[11-May-19 02:25 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8512Yes it is
8513
8514[11-May-19 02:26 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8515Venezuala has a constitutional crisis and both sides have had a hand in making it.
8516
8517[11-May-19 02:26 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8518Anyway, I guess you have a different determination but what that tells me is that Chavez's and Maduro's governments were illegitimate.
8519
8520[11-May-19 02:26 AM] Clapham#0791
8521yeah no doubt it is a constitutional crisis
8522
8523[11-May-19 02:27 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8524When you threaten the Supreme Court with violence... eh
8525
8526[11-May-19 02:27 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8527They acted with the support if the supreme court
8528
8529[11-May-19 02:27 AM] Clapham#0791
8530wow, what a surprise, JJ's explicit condemnation of Venezuela's government since 1999
8531
8532[11-May-19 02:28 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8533Do you have any evidence they where threatened?
8534
8535[11-May-19 02:28 AM] Clapham#0791
8536threaten the supreme court with violence -> that was completely unsubstantiated in the article
8537
8538[11-May-19 02:28 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8539I mean is the article supposed to link videos of the threats lol
8540
8541[11-May-19 02:28 AM] Clapham#0791
8542JJ doesn't need evidence, it reinforces his narrative
8543
8544[11-May-19 02:28 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8545I mean you are making a claim as well
8546
8547[11-May-19 02:28 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8548It should evidence of its claims yes
8549
8550[11-May-19 02:28 AM] Clapham#0791
8551LOL
8552
8553[11-May-19 02:28 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8554Are we?
8555
8556[11-May-19 02:29 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8557Implicitly yea
8558
8559[11-May-19 02:29 AM] Clapham#0791
8560the article makes a claim
8561
8562[11-May-19 02:29 AM] Clapham#0791
8563you believe it with no evidence
8564
8565[11-May-19 02:29 AM] Clapham#0791
8566we question that
8567
8568[11-May-19 02:29 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8569I mean if I find a source that is not TeleSUR will you accept it?
8570
8571[11-May-19 02:29 AM] Clapham#0791
8572how is that US making a claim
8573
8574[11-May-19 02:29 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8575The burden of proof is on us to prove Chavez didn't do.something
8576
8577[11-May-19 02:29 AM] Clapham#0791
8578Why do you even believe it, is the question
8579
8580[11-May-19 02:29 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8581You have heard of Hitchens razor?
8582
8583[11-May-19 02:29 AM] Clapham#0791
8584There was no evidence of it, WTF
8585
8586[11-May-19 02:30 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8587Alright, more searching for me...
8588
8589[11-May-19 02:30 AM] Clapham#0791
8590this is logically fallacious.  You're literally believing a random article which is making claims without evidence.
8591
8592[11-May-19 02:30 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8593brb
8594
8595[11-May-19 02:30 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
8596chavez's biggest problem is hes a filthy succdem
8597
8598[11-May-19 02:30 AM] Clapham#0791
8599if this was the other way around, you'd be going through that article with a toothcomb
8600
8601[11-May-19 02:30 AM] Clapham#0791
8602disingenuous fuck
8603
8604[11-May-19 02:31 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8605If it's a company that makes it's business pushing whatever the propaganda the Pentagon tells it to then we aren't likely to accept it at face value just like you wouldn't accept a telesur article.
8606
8607[11-May-19 02:31 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8608I'm just saying it is tiring arguing with socialists who only believe fringe sources.
8609
8610[11-May-19 02:31 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
8611:thebigsad:
8612
8613[11-May-19 02:32 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
8614@JuicyJuuce have you read about chavismo
8615
8616[11-May-19 02:32 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
8617like
8618
8619[11-May-19 02:32 AM] Clapham#0791
8620yeah it's tiring arguing with americans who don't understand that the burden of proof is on them
8621
8622[11-May-19 02:32 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8623Why would we believe sources who have proven they will print anything they are told to.
8624
8625[11-May-19 02:32 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8626https://elpais.com/diario/1999/08/25/internacional/935532004_850215.html
8627
8628[11-May-19 02:32 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
8629chavez never set out to achieve socialism
8630
8631[11-May-19 02:32 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
8632>who only believe fringe sources
8633
8634[11-May-19 02:32 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
8635>elpais.com
8636
8637[11-May-19 02:32 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8638I don't speak Spanish
8639
8640[11-May-19 02:33 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8641Just read the quote from the Chief Justice resigning in protest over fears they would be killed.
8642
8643[11-May-19 02:33 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
8644like chavez never set out to do worker owned MOP, he sought to create a welfare state that could support the lowest of venezuela's classes by bringing their most profitable sectors into the public realm
8645
8646[11-May-19 02:33 AM] Clapham#0791
8647no, you've read that wrong
8648
8649[11-May-19 02:33 AM] Clapham#0791
8650it's referring to the supreme court
8651
8652[11-May-19 02:33 AM] Clapham#0791
8653you fucking numbskull
8654
8655[11-May-19 02:34 AM] Clapham#0791
8656when you translate it, because spanish has nouns in male or female
8657
8658[11-May-19 02:34 AM] Clapham#0791
8659it translates it to 'she'
8660
8661[11-May-19 02:34 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8662Easy on the insults.
8663
8664[11-May-19 02:34 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8665Rule # 2
8666
8667[11-May-19 02:34 AM] Clapham#0791
8668it literally mentions this in the article you linked
8669
8670[11-May-19 02:34 AM] Clapham#0791
8671***In the face of these threats, the court allowed the emergency decree to stand. As a result of that decision, the chief justice resigned in protest, stating that “the court had committed suicide rather than wait to be killed by the Assembly.***
8672
8673[11-May-19 02:34 AM] Clapham#0791
8674good job
8675
8676[11-May-19 02:35 AM] Clapham#0791
8677so fucking stupid
8678
8679[11-May-19 02:35 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8680Alright, it looks like I misread it.
8681
8682[11-May-19 02:35 AM] Clapham#0791
8683yeah she committed suicide JJ
8684
8685[11-May-19 02:36 AM] Clapham#0791
8686when you translate it, it does say she, but that's because in spanish it has genders for nouns
8687
8688[11-May-19 02:36 AM] Clapham#0791
8689but I actually read the article you linked, which had the SAME QUOTE
8690
8691[11-May-19 02:36 AM] Clapham#0791
8692so I recognised it immediately
8693
8694[11-May-19 02:36 AM] Clapham#0791
8695literally facepalming
8696
8697[11-May-19 02:38 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8698Back to searching through obscure articles until you find a source that we've never heard of that looks fringe enough but backs you up.
8699
8700[11-May-19 02:39 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8701Believe it or not it is hard to find news articles from 1999 on this subject.
8702
8703[11-May-19 02:40 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8704Why does it have to be from 1999?
8705
8706[11-May-19 02:40 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8707And maybe it's hard to find them because not many people where writing articles accusing Chavez of doing it?
8708
8709[11-May-19 02:47 AM] Clapham#0791
8710also, hold on a second, you were claiming that you thought the government of Chavez was illegitimate, because of the threats of violence from supporters
8711
8712[11-May-19 02:47 AM] Clapham#0791
8713so, is Trump's government illegitimate, because of threats of violence from his own supporters...?
8714
8715[11-May-19 02:49 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8716I just ran across this article that had a different translation of the previous quote. Not saying it proves anything but just wanted to add it, "The court simply committed suicide to avoid being assassinated."
8717
8718<https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/1999/venezuela>
8719
8720[11-May-19 02:49 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
8721That’s just a rewording of what clapham said above
8722
8723[11-May-19 02:50 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
8724`***In the face of these threats, the court allowed the emergency decree to stand. As a result of that decision, the chief justice resigned in protest, stating that “the court had committed suicide rather than wait to be killed by the Assembly.***`
8725
8726[11-May-19 02:50 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8727Ah okay.
8728
8729[11-May-19 02:51 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8730It's pretty clear he was speaking figuratively to make a point.
8731
8732[11-May-19 02:51 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8733Agreed.
8734
8735[11-May-19 02:52 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8736Anyway the courts conclusion that the people have the highest sovreinty is correct so don't spend to much time trying to figure out whether they came to the correct judgement themselves or where pressured by Chavez with the support of most Venezuelans.
8737
8738[11-May-19 02:53 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8739I mean, it contradicts their constitution which said that you need a supermajority, not a majority.
8740
8741[11-May-19 02:53 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8742(their previous constitution)
8743
8744[11-May-19 02:53 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8745So that you don't get a new constitution every time the majority shifts every few years.
8746
8747[11-May-19 02:54 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8748Maybe they should get a new constitution until they get one most people like
8749
8750[11-May-19 02:54 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8751Rather than keep one people don't like out of inertia.
8752
8753[11-May-19 02:55 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8754I'm saying that if all you need is 50.000001% then you could change constitutions from left to right every election.
8755
8756[11-May-19 02:55 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8757That would be democratic
8758
8759[11-May-19 02:56 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8760So there is no point in having a constitution. Just a legilsature with majority rule.
8761
8762[11-May-19 02:56 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
8763P much
8764
8765[11-May-19 02:56 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8766I agree with that
8767
8768[11-May-19 02:56 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8769cool
8770
8771[11-May-19 02:56 AM] covfefe2020#7724
8772What the rest of the people want doesn’t matter
8773
8774[11-May-19 02:56 AM] covfefe2020#7724
8775We have the majority
8776
8777[11-May-19 02:57 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
8778That’s how American politics works
8779
8780[11-May-19 02:57 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8781Bit at the very least people should he able to change their constitution when they want.
8782
8783[11-May-19 02:57 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8784When 50.000001% of them want, you mean.
8785
8786[11-May-19 02:57 AM] covfefe2020#7724
8787Except Hillary Clinton isn’t prez
8788
8789[11-May-19 02:57 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
8790Technically over 50%
8791
8792[11-May-19 02:58 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8793Thanks Orby
8794
8795[11-May-19 02:58 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8796@covfefe2020 no what people decades or centuries ago who wrote the constitution want doesn't matter what the majority wants today is what is important in a democracy
8797
8798[11-May-19 02:58 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
8799Presidential elections aren’t democracy
8800
8801[11-May-19 02:58 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
8802And I was mostly referring to house and senate
8803
8804[11-May-19 02:58 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
8805You just need more than 50% of vote for it to pass
8806
8807[11-May-19 02:59 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
8808When you vote for a president you give the electoral college a suggestion on who you think they should vote for
8809
8810[11-May-19 02:59 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
8811And they do not have to abide
8812
8813[11-May-19 03:00 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8814Which is why I am in favor of: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Popular_Vote_Interstate_Compact>
8815
8816[11-May-19 03:02 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8817What is the point of that really. Why not just have a popular vote system.
8818
8819[11-May-19 03:03 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
8820Ranked voting + liquid democracy
8821
8822[11-May-19 03:03 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8823It is easier to achieve the above than to amend the U.S. constitution.
8824
8825[11-May-19 03:03 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
8826Ranked voting is superior to all other voting systems
8827
8828[11-May-19 03:03 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8829No argument there.
8830
8831[11-May-19 03:03 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8832And that is why constitutions are more hassle than they are worth
8833
8834[11-May-19 03:04 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8835@新世紀Orby ranked voting isn't very good imo
8836
8837[11-May-19 03:04 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8838Things like the right to free speech (which I know you guys value differently than the rest of us) should not be able to be abolished with at 50.00001% majority.
8839
8840[11-May-19 03:05 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8841Or you know, contitutional provisions against enslaving minorities.
8842
8843[11-May-19 03:05 AM] covfefe2020#7724
8844But most people want it
8845
8846[11-May-19 03:05 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
8847Ranked voting is good in representative democracy
8848
8849[11-May-19 03:06 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
8850But rep dem is shit
8851
8852[11-May-19 03:06 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8853Just ran across this gem. It is from 2004 so not directly relevant, but amusing (in a sad way) nonetheless:
8854https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/576666310000508950/unknown.png
8855
8856[11-May-19 03:06 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8857<https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/01/world/americas/venezuela-populism-authoritarianism.html>
8858
8859[11-May-19 03:06 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8860If freedom of speech is so good people won't vote to restrict it unnecessarily.
8861
8862[11-May-19 03:06 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
8863If nothing is free how come speech is
8864
8865[11-May-19 03:06 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
8866Checkmate liberals
8867
8868[11-May-19 03:08 AM] covfefe2020#7724
8869Yeah ok
8870
8871[11-May-19 03:08 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8872Wait that is so misleading @JuicyJuuce
8873
8874[11-May-19 03:08 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8875You know the 2004 recall referendum happened?
8876
8877[11-May-19 03:08 AM] covfefe2020#7724
8878People will never vote for something bad
8879
8880[11-May-19 03:08 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8881And there where international observers who say it was legit and Chavez won
8882
8883[11-May-19 03:08 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8884Definitely a sign of health that your supreme court goes through several hundred justices in a few years.
8885
8886[11-May-19 03:09 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8887"Mr. Chávez gave himself the authority to suspend unfriendly judges and to pack the courts with new ones, destroying the judiciary’s power to act as a check on his presidency."
8888
8889[11-May-19 03:09 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
8890@covfefe2020 that’s why no one should have power over another
8891
8892[11-May-19 03:10 AM] covfefe2020#7724
8893What
8894
8895[11-May-19 03:10 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
8896Didn’t Carter say that Venezuela was legit and Democratic
8897
8898[11-May-19 03:10 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
8899@covfefe2020 no one person should have the ability to exert their power over another person
8900
8901[11-May-19 03:11 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8902Yes The carter foundation literally said that the venezualan elections where top tier in terms of legitimacy
8903
8904[11-May-19 03:12 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8905@covfefe2020 people will definitely vote for bad things but that is democracy
8906
8907[11-May-19 03:12 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
8908I like how Venezuela opposition told UN not to send anyone to watch the election for its legitimacy
8909
8910[11-May-19 03:12 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
8911And now people are saying it wasn’t legit
8912
8913[11-May-19 03:12 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
8914🤡
8915
8916[11-May-19 03:12 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
8917Thank you opposition
8918
8919[11-May-19 03:13 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8920And then they didn't participate in the elections to the constituent assembly even though they where projected to get most seats.
8921
8922[11-May-19 03:13 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
8923Not suspicious at all
8924
8925[11-May-19 03:14 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8926Not as in any one party but the opposition as a whole.
8927
8928[11-May-19 03:14 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8929Which basically created the dichotomy between guido's assembly and the chavista dominated constituent assembly.
8930
8931[11-May-19 03:14 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8932I mean according to Maduro he can just keep calliing for new constitutions until he gets one that he likes. Seems reasonable to boycott that shit.
8933
8934[11-May-19 03:15 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8935Until his re election
8936
8937[11-May-19 03:15 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8938Get a new one every week.
8939
8940[11-May-19 03:15 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
8941All parliamentary leaders can do that tho can’t they
8942
8943[11-May-19 03:15 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8944And these constitution's need to be passed by referendums
8945
8946[11-May-19 03:15 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8947Nope
8948
8949[11-May-19 03:15 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8950They aren't arbitrary like you are Making out.
8951
8952[11-May-19 03:15 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8953As in parliamentaries can't all do that
8954
8955[11-May-19 03:16 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8956Sure, but just hold a new constitutinoal referendum every Wednesday.
8957
8958[11-May-19 03:16 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8959Yeah he isn't doing that though because if he tried to do that he would lose all credibility?
8960
8961[11-May-19 03:16 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8962So why bring it up
8963
8964[11-May-19 03:16 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8965For 12 weeks don't bother showing up, but then on the 13th get all your supporters out to vote.
8966
8967[11-May-19 03:17 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
8968What?
8969
8970[11-May-19 03:17 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8971Voila, the consttituion that enshrines whatever you want forever. Sounds like a great system.
8972
8973[11-May-19 03:17 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8974Yeah is this fan fiction?
8975
8976[11-May-19 03:17 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8977Fan fiction about a leader doing bad things in liue of an argument
8978
8979[11-May-19 03:17 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
8980What would maduro not showing up do
8981
8982[11-May-19 03:18 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8983Like don't bother your supporters with showing up for the first 12 votes. Let the opposition win. You only need to win one.
8984
8985[11-May-19 03:18 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8986He isn't allowed to call another assembly anyway
8987
8988[11-May-19 03:18 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
8989Sure he is.
8990
8991[11-May-19 03:18 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8992No he isn't
8993
8994[11-May-19 03:18 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8995This assembly has to create a new constitution before it can disband
8996
8997[11-May-19 03:19 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
8998The constitution doesn't give anyone outside the assembly the power to disband it
8999
9000[11-May-19 03:19 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
9001Does the constitution say that?
9002
9003[11-May-19 03:19 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
9004Maduro is gonna wave his magic wand to abolish that law tomorrow @Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism
9005
9006[11-May-19 03:19 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
9007Or does it even matter what the constitution says? lol
9008
9009[11-May-19 03:19 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9010And it can only disband if it replaces the constitution.
9011
9012[11-May-19 03:20 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
9013According to what?
9014
9015[11-May-19 03:20 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9016According to the constitution?
9017
9018[11-May-19 03:21 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
9019Question mark?
9020
9021[11-May-19 03:21 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
9022or Period.
9023
9024[11-May-19 03:21 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9025The purpose of the assembly is to create a constitution that is it's defined purpose in the current constitution.
9026
9027[11-May-19 03:21 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
9028Okay but we've already determined that the current constitution doesn't matter when it comes to making a new constitution.
9029
9030[11-May-19 03:22 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
9031lol
9032
9033[11-May-19 03:22 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
9034anyway
9035
9036[11-May-19 03:22 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9037The current constitution doesn't matter more than a body elected to create a new one that then had a referendum?
9038
9039[11-May-19 03:23 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9040Do referendums mean nothing to you because they don't happen in America or something.
9041
9042[11-May-19 03:23 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
9043I'm just saying if you are throwing out all constitutional restraints than you have no right to claim that one referendum can't be superceded by a new one a week later.
9044
9045[11-May-19 03:23 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9046It's not just arbitrary the current constitution can only be replaced if the public agrees to it.
9047
9048[11-May-19 03:24 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
9049You guys are essentially saying constitutions should have no power against a 50.000001% referendum.
9050
9051[11-May-19 03:24 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9052If people vote for lots of new constitution in succession and the elections are legitimate then fine?
9053
9054[11-May-19 03:24 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9055How is that undemocratic?
9056
9057[11-May-19 03:25 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
9058Great, once a week until the president gets one that he likes. Just tire out the voting populace.
9059
9060[11-May-19 03:25 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
9061You only need to win once to make yourself Presidente for Life.
9062
9063[11-May-19 03:25 AM] Clapham#0791
9064I don't believe in 50% majority, I believe in like 60 or 70%, but it depends on the turnout and it depends on what is being voted on
9065
9066[11-May-19 03:25 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9067The turn out should have to be above a certain amount but yes sure how is that not democratic?
9068
9069[11-May-19 03:25 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
9070So did the 1961 constitution @Clapham but Chavez ignored that.
9071
9072[11-May-19 03:26 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9073Not for a referendum
9074
9075[11-May-19 03:26 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9076For the legislature
9077
9078[11-May-19 03:26 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
9079And Chavez's turnout for his constitutional referendum was only 38%
9080
9081[11-May-19 03:26 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9082Getting 70%in a legislature is almost impossible unless the establishment overwhelmingly supports you
9083
9084[11-May-19 03:27 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
9085Supermajority usually means 60% from my experience.
9086
9087[11-May-19 03:27 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
9088Not sure what VZ1961 says.
9089
9090[11-May-19 03:27 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
9091But back to this: "Yeah he isn't doing that though because if he tried to do that he would lose all credibility?"
9092
9093I mean between 60% and 80% of the population has wanted him to resign for the past several years.
9094
9095[11-May-19 03:28 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
9096You said turnout though
9097
9098[11-May-19 03:28 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
9099That means 38% of the population voted
9100
9101[11-May-19 03:28 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
9102He still could have gotten a 60% vote in favor despite lower turnout
9103
9104[11-May-19 03:28 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
9105Oh that last statement was about Maduro. The 38% was Chavez's 1999 constitutional referendum.
9106
9107[11-May-19 03:28 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9108Wait source on that?
9109
9110[11-May-19 03:29 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
911160 -80%? Where did you get that?
9112
9113[11-May-19 03:29 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
9114It was from a VZ polling service, one sec...
9115
9116[11-May-19 03:29 AM] covfefe2020#7724
9117This argument has been going for almost 3 hours since the original post
9118
9119[11-May-19 03:30 AM] covfefe2020#7724
9120You guys have stamina I can’t imagine
9121
9122[11-May-19 03:30 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
9123It is from Datanálisis, supposedly a highly respected polling organization in VZ
9124
9125[11-May-19 03:30 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
9126Like 60% of American populous voted in 2016 which means atmost 30% of population voted for trump
9127
9128[11-May-19 03:30 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
9129Is that undemocratic
9130
9131[11-May-19 03:31 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
9132@covfefe2020 yea brain is slowing down lol
9133
9134[11-May-19 03:31 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9135@covfefe2020 take amphetamines
9136
9137[11-May-19 03:31 AM] covfefe2020#7724
9138No
9139
9140[11-May-19 03:31 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9141Yes.
9142
9143[11-May-19 03:32 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
9144
9145https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/576672868855840771/unknown.png
9146
9147[11-May-19 03:32 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
9148<https://www.pri.org/stories/2019-01-08/venezuelans-want-president-maduro-out-most-would-oppose-foreign-military>
9149
9150[11-May-19 03:32 AM] covfefe2020#7724
9151Drugs are expensive
9152
9153[11-May-19 03:32 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
9154Get a doctor and healthcare you cheap fuck
9155
9156[11-May-19 03:33 AM] covfefe2020#7724
9157No
9158
9159[11-May-19 03:33 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
9160Why don’t you just get a job so you can afford it
9161
9162[11-May-19 03:33 AM] covfefe2020#7724
9163@新世紀Orby I am soon
9164
9165[11-May-19 03:33 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
9166Where
9167
9168[11-May-19 03:33 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
9169And doing what
9170
9171[11-May-19 03:33 AM] covfefe2020#7724
9172I’m just reffing soccer games for now
9173
9174[11-May-19 03:33 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
9175:thebigsad:
9176
9177[11-May-19 03:33 AM] covfefe2020#7724
9178:thebigsad:
9179
9180[11-May-19 03:34 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
9181I was hoping it would be a real job
9182
9183[11-May-19 03:34 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
9184Get a job at a supermarket it’s easy and they work with your schedule
9185
9186[11-May-19 03:34 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
9187It’s super easy work
9188
9189[11-May-19 03:35 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9190Amphetemines aren't that expensive these days
9191
9192[11-May-19 03:35 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
9193I bought like 12 addy XR off a friend for like 70$ once
9194
9195[11-May-19 03:36 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
9196Which wasn’t too bad for XR
9197
9198[11-May-19 03:36 AM] covfefe2020#7724
9199Why would I buy them tho
9200
9201[11-May-19 03:36 AM] covfefe2020#7724
9202I can spend ok vbucks
9203
9204[11-May-19 03:36 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
9205Utility
9206
9207[11-May-19 03:37 AM] covfefe2020#7724
9208Or pay someone to be my friend for 30 minutes
9209
9210[11-May-19 03:37 AM] covfefe2020#7724
9211I don’t have ADD or Narcolepsy
9212
9213[11-May-19 03:38 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9214If you had add they wouldn't work
9215
9216[11-May-19 03:39 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9217They just perk you up a bit and give you more mental energy I guess and if you are going to be up all night doing other shit more energy is good.
9218
9219[11-May-19 03:40 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9220Plus they are cheaper than other stims.
9221
9222[11-May-19 03:42 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9223I do like caffeine tho.
9224
9225[11-May-19 03:48 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
9226smh I come back and you aren't talking about Venezuela
9227
9228[11-May-19 03:49 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
9229https://pitjournal.unc.edu/article/are-numbers-right-reliability-political-polls-venezuela
9230
9231[11-May-19 03:50 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
9232I'm falling asleep. It's been real everyone. g'nite.
9233
9234[11-May-19 03:58 AM] covfefe2020#7724
9235Drugs are just not something I want to expose myself to
9236
9237[11-May-19 03:58 AM] covfefe2020#7724
9238I don’t have a ton of self restraint
9239
9240[11-May-19 04:01 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9241It's 10 AM
9242
9243[11-May-19 04:01 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9244Damn it
9245
9246[11-May-19 04:04 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9247Lol damn
9248
9249[11-May-19 04:07 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9250My actual advice is don't do things other than psilocybin and weed (except on occasions with proper research and sourcing in safe enviroments).
9251
9252[11-May-19 04:07 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9253*Looks at beer in the hand* uhmmmmm
9254
9255[11-May-19 04:08 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9256I don't understand beer personally.
9257
9258[11-May-19 04:08 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9259Well It's ok I guess.
9260
9261[11-May-19 04:09 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9262Old fashioned drug
9263
9264[11-May-19 04:10 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9265I understand why people drank it when well water was full of cholera but these days I feel like it's not really worth drinking alot off it.
9266
9267[11-May-19 04:10 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9268Depends
9269
9270[11-May-19 04:11 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9271Hard binged are as bad for you as most hard drugs and you feel just as bad the next day but it isn't as good.
9272
9273[11-May-19 04:11 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9274If you want to drink something with your friends without getting *really* drunk
9275
9276[11-May-19 04:11 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9277I understand social drinking in reasonable amounts.
9278
9279[11-May-19 04:12 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9280But in the UK most drinkers have a mind set that if you don't get so drunk you can't function it's not a proper night out.
9281
9282[11-May-19 04:13 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9283Thats bad
9284
9285[11-May-19 04:13 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9286They'll end up on the streets the next morning
9287
9288[11-May-19 04:15 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9289Or throwing up in a taxi
9290
9291[11-May-19 04:28 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
9292Being drunk isn’t fun imo
9293
9294[11-May-19 04:28 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
9295I like a nice simple buzz
9296
9297[11-May-19 04:28 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
9298And I can usually maintain it for a bit
9299
9300[11-May-19 04:37 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9301^ this
9302
9303[11-May-19 04:39 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9304Being drunk isn't much better than being sober except in certain situations.
9305
9306[11-May-19 05:24 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
9307https://itsgoingdown.org/were-gonna-run-the-country-white-power-fk-ns-turning-point-usa-leader-gives-alt-right-hand-sign-while-caught-on-racist-rant/
9308
9309[11-May-19 11:35 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
9310https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/05/cuba-launches-widespread-rationing-economic-crisis-190511071310433.html
9311
9312[11-May-19 12:31 PM] covfefe2020#7724
9313Darn it US
9314
9315[11-May-19 12:32 PM] covfefe2020#7724
9316Oh my that article is calling the ok sign alt right again
9317
9318[11-May-19 12:32 PM] covfefe2020#7724
9319Then tries to mention how Charlie Kirk did it recently
9320
9321[11-May-19 01:51 PM] Rest_In_XXXNightmare_Death#2085
9322XXX died for our sins
9323
9324[11-May-19 01:51 PM] Rest_In_XXXNightmare_Death#2085
9325😭
9326
9327[11-May-19 03:34 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
9328imagine scoffing at breadlines when we just let people die in the U.S.
9329
9330[11-May-19 03:35 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
9331USA really gonna let people die in Cuba for no reason
9332
9333[11-May-19 03:35 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9334USA dies?
9335
9336[11-May-19 03:35 PM] Crezilin#1718
9337*When US is welfare state.*
9338
9339[11-May-19 03:35 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9340Finally
9341
9342[11-May-19 03:35 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9343Good joke Crezilin
9344
9345[11-May-19 03:35 PM] Crezilin#1718
9346It is.
9347
9348[11-May-19 03:36 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9349Compared to Germany and other European nations, the USA aren't a good welfare state
9350
9351[11-May-19 03:36 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
9352It’s hardly a welfare state
9353
9354[11-May-19 03:36 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9355Laisezz-Faire economy vs Rhenish Capitalism
9356
9357[11-May-19 03:36 PM] Crezilin#1718
9358Maybe relatively but it still is.
9359
9360[11-May-19 03:36 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9361When you need to pay $10000 for your treatment against cancer it's not a welfare state
9362
9363[11-May-19 03:37 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
9364where is all this welfare you speak of
9365
9366[11-May-19 03:37 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9367Also they are no state-owned insurance companies
9368
9369[11-May-19 03:37 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9370At least I never heard of any
9371
9372[11-May-19 03:37 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9373@Admiruwu_Mwunsun You live in the US?
9374
9375[11-May-19 03:37 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9376Do they have state-owned insurance companies?
9377
9378[11-May-19 03:38 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
9379nope
9380
9381[11-May-19 03:38 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
9382im a dual citizen, U.S. and UK
9383
9384[11-May-19 03:38 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9385So, the US aren't a classical welfare state
9386
9387[11-May-19 03:39 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9388Quite logical, because the US never had a social Democratic shift like Germany had
9389
9390[11-May-19 03:39 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
9391the U.S. has been moving towards an ancom-esque oligarchy for the last 40 years
9392
9393[11-May-19 03:39 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9394And they haven't had any problems with pre-war economies
9395
9396[11-May-19 03:39 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
9397Trump is accelerating that
9398
9399[11-May-19 03:40 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9400I would even go so far calling the US a democratic oligarchy
9401
9402[11-May-19 03:40 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
9403his administration has been stripping away the most bare necessities of the welfare state since he took office
9404
9405[11-May-19 03:40 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
9406no we don't have a democracy
9407
9408[11-May-19 03:40 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9409Like Russia has
9410
9411[11-May-19 03:40 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
9412even Russia doesn't have the electoral college
9413
9414[11-May-19 03:40 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9415Just with a dumb orange-haired idiot on their highest rank
9416
9417[11-May-19 03:40 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
9418if we had an actual democratic society then the electoral college would not existt
9419
9420[11-May-19 03:41 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
9421nor would caucuses or closed primaries, both of which serve to block 'undesirables' from voting
9422
9423[11-May-19 03:41 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9424And lobbies wouldn't be allowed to give money to candidates
9425
9426[11-May-19 03:41 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
9427Bruh
9428https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/576856348289925160/image0.png
9429
9430[11-May-19 03:41 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
9431?
9432
9433[11-May-19 03:41 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9434Ancom
9435
9436[11-May-19 03:41 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
9437am I wrong
9438
9439[11-May-19 03:41 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
9440oh
9441
9442[11-May-19 03:41 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
9443:thebigsad:
9444
9445[11-May-19 03:41 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
9446LOL
9447
9448[11-May-19 03:41 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9449You mean ancap
9450
9451[11-May-19 03:41 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9452😂
9453
9454[11-May-19 03:41 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
9455:thebigsad:
9456
9457[11-May-19 03:41 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9458:honk:
9459
9460[11-May-19 03:41 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
9461you had to clip that didnt you
9462
9463[11-May-19 03:42 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
9464🤡
9465
9466[11-May-19 03:42 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9467US shifting to ancom :happy:
9468
9469[11-May-19 03:42 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
9470I was confused and thought it was a meme post making fun of crezilin
9471
9472[11-May-19 03:42 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
9473But it didn’t make sense
9474
9475[11-May-19 03:42 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
9476xd
9477
9478[11-May-19 03:42 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
9479an-cap esque but yeah
9480
9481[11-May-19 03:43 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
9482like Trump's EPA has been removing the most basic protections against ultra dangerous chemicals in the water supply, children's toys, medicines, the air, etc.
9483
9484[11-May-19 03:43 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9485Oh nice
9486
9487[11-May-19 03:43 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9488Interesting welfare state
9489
9490[11-May-19 03:43 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
9491it's actually quite disturbing
9492
9493[11-May-19 03:44 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
9494Businesses will fix it
9495
9496[11-May-19 03:44 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
9497Won’t poison us for a quick buck
9498
9499[11-May-19 03:44 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
9500not to say that any of it is an argument *for* Obama or some other neoliberal clown
9501
9502[11-May-19 03:44 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9503Step 1: Revive Lenin
9504Step 2: Send him to the US
9505Step 3: ???
9506Step 4: profit
9507
9508[11-May-19 03:44 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
9509imagine trying to revive the mammoths when we could revive Lenin
9510
9511[11-May-19 03:45 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9512Some crazy Russian tried to
9513
9514[11-May-19 03:45 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
9515im saying lets get the scientists on it
9516
9517[11-May-19 03:45 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
9518Lenin's pretty well preserved it might be possible
9519
9520[11-May-19 03:45 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
9521He’s not that well preserved tbh
9522
9523[11-May-19 03:45 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
9524Most of the corpse is wax now
9525
9526[11-May-19 03:46 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
9527=/
9528
9529[11-May-19 03:46 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
9530There’s still some original material
9531
9532[11-May-19 03:46 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
9533i mean ur still going to use his DNA
9534
9535[11-May-19 03:46 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
9536But not much and none that’s visible
9537
9538[11-May-19 03:46 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
9539Yea
9540
9541[11-May-19 03:46 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
9542If the dna hasn’t been destroyed by the preservatives tho
9543
9544[11-May-19 03:46 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
9545https://youtu.be/hCZsy6_SIQ8
9546
9547[11-May-19 03:46 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
9548Good vid about Lenin’s corpse
9549
9550[11-May-19 03:47 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
9551lol
9552
9553[11-May-19 03:47 PM] ĞØĐ Graves#3101
9554I would like to be the socialist leader
9555
9556[11-May-19 03:47 PM] covfefe2020#7724
9557And I wanna be Asian
9558
9559[11-May-19 03:50 PM] ĞØĐ Graves#3101
9560Just be trans racial
9561
9562[11-May-19 03:56 PM] Connolly#4281
9563>transracialism
9564On behalf of the transnostate, ill kill you for this slander via firing Squad
9565https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/576860260891885593/20190511_162122.jpg
9566
9567[11-May-19 04:08 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
9568
9569https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/576863097999065089/image0.jpg
9570
9571[11-May-19 04:41 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
9572
9573https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/576871550779654154/image0.jpg
9574
9575[11-May-19 04:41 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
9576:honk:
9577
9578[11-May-19 04:42 PM] covfefe2020#7724
9579or he could just not use tarrifs for the sake of tarrifs
9580
9581[12-May-19 03:37 PM] Nooner Gooner#2343
9582better dead than red, change my mind
9583
9584[12-May-19 03:37 PM] engelsgang#9451
9585Then die
9586
9587[12-May-19 03:37 PM] Nooner Gooner#2343
9588i was already gonna do that
9589
9590[12-May-19 03:38 PM] engelsgang#9451
9591Another victory for the revolution
9592
9593[12-May-19 03:40 PM] Nooner Gooner#2343
9594but now that you want me to i dont feel like it
9595
9596[12-May-19 03:40 PM] engelsgang#9451
9597🤡
9598
9599[12-May-19 03:40 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9600So you're red
9601
9602[12-May-19 03:41 PM] Nooner Gooner#2343
9603no, im gonna remove red
9604
9605[12-May-19 03:42 PM] Nooner Gooner#2343
9606just like the poles in 1920
9607
9608[12-May-19 03:43 PM] covfefe2020#7724
9609?
9610
9611[12-May-19 03:44 PM] Nooner Gooner#2343
9612polish soviet war, the poles doubled in size from captured lands they won
9613
9614[12-May-19 03:45 PM] covfefe2020#7724
9615Then got double yote by more reds
9616
9617[12-May-19 05:21 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
9618TIL when Stalin was 36 he got a 13 year old pregnant.
9619
9620[12-May-19 05:24 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9621Wasn't that unusual back then @JuicyJuuce
9622
9623[12-May-19 05:24 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9624In your home country, Iran, this was normal
9625
9626[12-May-19 05:24 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9627At least the difference of the ages
9628
9629[12-May-19 05:25 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
9630It was illegal in Russia at the time.
9631
9632[12-May-19 05:25 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9633Stalin was in Georgia This time
9634
9635[12-May-19 05:25 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9636Not Russia
9637
9638[12-May-19 05:26 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
9639I don’t think so.
9640
9641[12-May-19 05:26 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9642He was
9643
9644[12-May-19 05:26 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9645And Georgia was pretty autonomous this time
9646
9647[12-May-19 05:27 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
9648He wasn’t.
9649https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/577245586487640064/image0.png
9650
9651[12-May-19 05:29 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9652This village is extremely far in the north of Russia
9653
9654[12-May-19 05:29 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9655So basically no one cares there
9656
9657[12-May-19 05:29 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
9658um
9659
9660[12-May-19 05:29 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9661Uhm
9662
9663[12-May-19 05:30 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9664It's behind the Ural somewhere in nowhere
9665
9666[12-May-19 05:31 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9667You could stab 20 people there and no one would care, literally
9668
9669[12-May-19 05:32 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9670Rural Russia especially behind the Ural is de facto free from rules
9671
9672[12-May-19 05:32 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9673(In the times back then)
9674
9675[12-May-19 05:32 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
9676Which makes stabbing people okay. 👌
9677
9678[12-May-19 05:32 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9679Haven't said that
9680
9681[12-May-19 05:32 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9682But well
9683
9684[12-May-19 05:33 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9685I said you *could* do it there not everyone *likes* to do it there
9686
9687[12-May-19 05:33 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9688What do the indigenous Tungeses think about age of consent?
9689
9690[12-May-19 05:34 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9691Was it there?
9692
9693[12-May-19 05:34 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9694I thought it was more in the west
9695
9696[12-May-19 05:34 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9697Tungese ASSR
9698
9699[12-May-19 05:34 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
9700mfw commies are trying to brush off pedophilia because they're that ideologically possessed
9701
9702[12-May-19 05:35 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9703???
9704
9705[12-May-19 05:35 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9706Step away fascist
9707
9708[12-May-19 05:35 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9709We're not trying to brush it off. Stalin fucking a kid is bad
9710
9711[12-May-19 05:35 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
9712I’m more interested in what modern day socialists think of the psychological health of a 36 year old man sleeping with a 13 year old girl.
9713
9714[12-May-19 05:35 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9715What should they think?
9716
9717[12-May-19 05:35 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
9718Nice dodge
9719
9720[12-May-19 05:36 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9721I'm serious
9722
9723[12-May-19 05:36 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9724Trying to psycho analyse historical figures is for buzzfeed tier journalists
9725
9726[12-May-19 05:36 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
9727What do *you* think?
9728
9729[12-May-19 05:36 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9730Trying to psycho analyse historical figures is for buzzfeed tier journalists
9731
9732[12-May-19 05:37 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9733I've never met Stalin
9734
9735[12-May-19 05:37 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9736I can't make a psychological analysis
9737
9738[12-May-19 05:37 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
9739psychoanalysis of historical figures isn't a bad idea
9740
9741[12-May-19 05:37 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9742It is, because you've never met them
9743
9744[12-May-19 05:37 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9745And Stalin hasn't got any works where he speaks about hisself
9746
9747[12-May-19 05:38 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9748And reading Trotzky writing about Stalin is like hearing Hillary speaking about Trump
9749
9750[12-May-19 05:38 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
9751He is an interesting figure. He had a physically abusive father and was known for being exceptionally cold hearted among his socialist peers.
9752
9753[12-May-19 05:38 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9754How can you psycho analyse someone unless you are a trained psychiatrist who has examined them?
9755
9756[12-May-19 05:38 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
9757true
9758
9759[12-May-19 05:38 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
9760but it says something about him
9761
9762[12-May-19 05:39 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9763Trying to explain Stalinism or stalin's policy decisions through reference to him having an abusive father is the worst way of going about actually understanding the period
9764
9765[12-May-19 05:40 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
9766In your opinion
9767
9768[12-May-19 05:40 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9769In the opinion of any historian
9770
9771[12-May-19 05:40 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9772Trying to explain history through the personality of individual actors is universally considered bad history by any serious academic
9773
9774[12-May-19 05:40 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9775Depends
9776
9777[12-May-19 05:41 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
9778
9779https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/577248888319246338/zfNQztVheujxQAAAABJRU5ErkJggg.png
9780
9781[12-May-19 05:41 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9782Well generally
9783
9784[12-May-19 05:41 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
9785What a great resource we have here, the sum knowledge of all historians.
9786
9787[12-May-19 05:41 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9788Some influences in the childhood and life of historical figures had impact on their ideology
9789
9790[12-May-19 05:41 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
9791Obviously
9792
9793[12-May-19 05:41 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9794But not on everyone
9795
9796[12-May-19 05:42 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9797Lots of people have shit fathers and don't decide to collectivise agriculture Mao collectivised agriculture and no one says anything about his father being abusive.
9798
9799[12-May-19 05:42 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
9800And pretending that having a brutal father was not correlated to Stalin’s own brutality is naive at best, dishonest at worst.
9801
9802[12-May-19 05:43 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9803Hitler f. E.
9804
9805[12-May-19 05:43 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
9806i've got a biography of stalin i'm gonna read after i finish archipelago
9807
9808[12-May-19 05:43 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9809No you are talking shit @JuicyJuuce
9810
9811[12-May-19 05:43 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
9812the one by Khlevniuk
9813
9814[12-May-19 05:43 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
9815cool
9816
9817[12-May-19 05:43 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9818Lenin had a great father and was just as brutal as Stalin
9819
9820[12-May-19 05:43 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9821Hitler had... Okay well
9822
9823[12-May-19 05:43 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
9824Not even close
9825
9826[12-May-19 05:44 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9827?
9828
9829[12-May-19 05:44 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9830You know lenin invented the idea of the party purge not stalin
9831
9832[12-May-19 05:44 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
9833Lenin didn’t kill a million of his own party out of paranoia.
9834
9835[12-May-19 05:44 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9836Neither did Stalin?
9837
9838[12-May-19 05:44 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
9839He did
9840
9841[12-May-19 05:44 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9842Not of his own party
9843
9844[12-May-19 05:44 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9845Total executions for the whole period of the great purge where under a million
9846
9847[12-May-19 05:45 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9848That's a wrongly assumed
9849
9850[12-May-19 05:45 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
9851I'd say btw, Marx is worse than any of the Bolsheviks or the CCP
9852
9853[12-May-19 05:45 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
9854700,000 to 1,200,000 I believe
9855
9856[12-May-19 05:45 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9857Of specifically party it would be farower than a million
9858
9859[12-May-19 05:45 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9860It's about 800,000
9861
9862[12-May-19 05:45 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9863Total
9864
9865[12-May-19 05:45 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9866
9867https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/577250097071521807/unknown.png
9868
9869[12-May-19 05:45 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
9870Anyway this is beside the point by a million miles.
9871
9872[12-May-19 05:45 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9873@CpnNevosity how?
9874
9875[12-May-19 05:45 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9876From the Soviet archive
9877
9878[12-May-19 05:46 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9879About 1 million died in the GUlags
9880
9881[12-May-19 05:46 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
9882He created huge parts of the ideology Stalin, Mao, and their henchmen followed. The ideology that said what they were doing was right.
9883
9884[12-May-19 05:46 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9885800,000 were executed
9886
9887[12-May-19 05:46 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
9888The soviet archives are not proof
9889
9890[12-May-19 05:47 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9891So in a country of 100 millions of people we can explain an entire era of its history that one allegedly mentally ill guy was abused by his father and tried to kill everyone out of paranoia.
9892
9893[12-May-19 05:47 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
9894Also, it was common practice to throw those too sick to be cured out into the snow to die
9895
9896[12-May-19 05:47 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9897Then the archives of Nazi Germany wouldn't be a proof too
9898
9899[12-May-19 05:47 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9900Great history
9901
9902[12-May-19 05:47 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9903Thus were reading it
9904
9905[12-May-19 05:47 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
9906The Nazi archives aren't used to prove the holocaust
9907
9908[12-May-19 05:47 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9909It's not like anyone could read them
9910
9911[12-May-19 05:47 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9912@CpnNevosity we know the camp populations and how many people died I  the camps too
9913
9914[12-May-19 05:47 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9915They are
9916
9917[12-May-19 05:47 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9918Yes exactly
9919
9920[12-May-19 05:47 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
9921That straw man looks to be at 17 feet tall, @Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism
9922
9923[12-May-19 05:48 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9924@CpnNevosity Nazi archives are the main source of proof for the archives?
9925
9926[12-May-19 05:48 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
9927The proof of the Holocaust doesn't come from nazi archives I don't think
9928
9929[12-May-19 05:48 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9930@JuicyJuuceif that's a straw man explain what you mean then?
9931
9932[12-May-19 05:49 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9933@CpnNevosity there is the physical evidence of the camps that where liberated and the archives?
9934
9935[12-May-19 05:49 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9936They come from the Nazis archives
9937
9938[12-May-19 05:49 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9939There is no other evidence
9940
9941[12-May-19 05:50 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
9942I mean you are creating a straw man that says I’m trying to explain Soviet history through one abusive father. It is dishonest.
9943
9944[12-May-19 05:50 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9945@CpnNevosity The Nazis were very exact with their entries into those archives, they wrote down every number of the imprisoned people, counted how many died every day and how many remained or arrived
9946
9947[12-May-19 05:50 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
9948Source?
9949
9950[12-May-19 05:50 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9951How would you come up with figures for concentration camp populations in Nazi Germany?
9952
9953[12-May-19 05:50 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9954I have one in German if you like
9955
9956[12-May-19 05:50 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9957What would you have to go on apart from the Nazis records?
9958
9959[12-May-19 05:50 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
9960i gtg
9961
9962[12-May-19 05:51 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
9963You are aggressively trying to avoid any look at Stalin’s psychological health.
9964
9965[12-May-19 05:51 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9966You are trying to say that Stalinism was due to stalin having an abusive father
9967
9968[12-May-19 05:51 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9969http://www.bundesarchiv.de/DE/Navigation/Finden/Epochen/Deutsches-Reich-Nationalsozialismus/deutsches-reich-nationalsozialismus.html
9970
9971[12-May-19 05:51 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
9972I’m saying it was a factor.
9973
9974[12-May-19 05:51 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
9975The German state itself made a website to access these archives
9976
9977[12-May-19 05:52 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9978It was a factor in what?
9979
9980[12-May-19 05:52 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
9981This is so small brained wtf
9982https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/577251722670505984/image0.png
9983
9984[12-May-19 05:52 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
9985You are the one being reductive in order to deflect.
9986
9987[12-May-19 05:52 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
9988A factor in Stalinism.
9989
9990[12-May-19 05:53 PM] nudel#9073
9991```I'd say btw, Marx is worse than any of the Bolsheviks or the CCP
9992``` what
9993
9994[12-May-19 05:53 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
9995I'm not being reductive Stalin may or may not have been mentally ill we have no way of knowing to what extent he was or to what extent that affected his personal beliefs.
9996
9997[12-May-19 05:53 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
9998@CpnNevosity what the fuck
9999
10000[12-May-19 05:53 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
10001
10002https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/577252014740865034/image0.png
10003
10004[12-May-19 05:53 PM] nudel#9073
10005```He created huge parts of the ideology Stalin, Mao, and their henchmen followed. The ideology that said what they were doing was right.
10006``` what exactly did marx say they were doing right?
10007
10008[12-May-19 05:53 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
10009Btw @Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism Do you want a specific tag for your sub ideology?
10010
10011[12-May-19 05:54 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
10012They developed their own branches of Marxism and Marxism Leninism for material conditions of their regions
10013
10014[12-May-19 05:54 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
10015There are lots of reasons that stalin would have been influenced to pursue those policies either way as there where large blocs aside from stalim pushing for them.
10016
10017[12-May-19 05:54 PM] nudel#9073
10018```Also, it was common practice to throw those too sick to be cured out into the snow to die
10019``` @CpnNevosity where are you getting this?
10020
10021[12-May-19 05:54 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10022We have some way of knowing. His abusive father, his peers seeing his early day decisions as brutal and cold hearted.
10023
10024[12-May-19 05:54 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
10025Marx called for the creations of gulags a
10026
10027[12-May-19 05:54 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
10028@Leftcom Stalin  monarcho bolshevism
10029
10030[12-May-19 05:54 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
10031Marx called for purges
10032
10033[12-May-19 05:54 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
10034@nudel Archipelago and Solzhenitsyn
10035
10036[12-May-19 05:54 PM] nudel#9073
10037Ok so clown sources
10038
10039[12-May-19 05:54 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
10040Okay you'll get the ml tag
10041
10042[12-May-19 05:55 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
10043Basically bukharingal
10044
10045[12-May-19 05:55 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
10046@JuicyJuuce people called lenins policies brutal and cold hearted and lots of other people make brutal and cold hearted decisions in the middle of a civil war?
10047
10048[12-May-19 05:55 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
10049@nudel you can tell CPN’s knowledge of Marx comes from Peterson, pragerU, and pop culture
10050
10051[12-May-19 05:55 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10052Stalin’s was persistent throughout his life.
10053
10054[12-May-19 05:55 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
10055What's the relevance that one of them had an abusive father
10056
10057[12-May-19 05:56 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10058And a 36 year old sleeping with a 13 year old is also a sign of severe emotional stunting.
10059
10060[12-May-19 05:56 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
10061😑
10062
10063[12-May-19 05:57 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
10064Marx didn’t even prescribe how society should work he just describe how he thought it would and developed diamat to prove capitalist conditions are exploitative
10065
10066[12-May-19 05:57 PM] nudel#9073
10067i thought we were talking about stalin, not beria
10068
10069[12-May-19 05:57 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
10070@JuicyJuuce it’s not emotional stunting it’s just environment he grew up in
10071
10072[12-May-19 05:57 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
10073@nudel Do you want a specific sub-ideology tag?
10074
10075[12-May-19 05:58 PM] nudel#9073
10076no
10077
10078[12-May-19 05:58 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
10079Okay
10080
10081[12-May-19 05:58 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10082The latter causes the former, @新世紀Orby
10083
10084[12-May-19 05:58 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
10085Nothing like ML or Leninist?
10086
10087[12-May-19 05:58 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
10088What
10089
10090[12-May-19 05:58 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
10091@JuicyJuucewe are not argueomg anything about stalin's character or mental development we are saying you can't say that stalin's ideology and policies where primarily nfluenced by them.
10092
10093[12-May-19 05:59 PM] nudel#9073
10094@JuicyJuuce Why make up stuff about Stalin being a pedophile when you can quite easily demonstrate that the Politburo, including Stalin, were shielding Beria from the consequences of his actions in real life?
10095
10096[12-May-19 06:00 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10097They may have been. I’m just saying it bears looking into.
10098
10099At least we have gone from it not being relevant to it not being of “primary” relevance.
10100
10101[12-May-19 06:00 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
10102A Great victory for pseudo history has been won this day
10103
10104[12-May-19 06:01 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
10105
10106https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/577253949719969797/4-2.png
10107
10108[12-May-19 06:02 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10109It is noteworthy to me that you have been trying to derail this line of thought from the get go. Like we aren’t allowed to even consider it.
10110
10111[12-May-19 06:02 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
10112No or the GULag waits for you
10113
10114[12-May-19 06:02 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
10115Do you think that maybe stalin's policies may have been more influenced by things like leninist ideology the historical situation the parties political interests etc? These factors explain not just stalin's thinking on policy but can explain the actions of the whole party.
10116
10117[12-May-19 06:02 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10118Many factors, no doubt.
10119
10120[12-May-19 06:03 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10121But we can’t talk about this one it seems.
10122
10123[12-May-19 06:03 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
10124Why think about to what extent stalin had daddy issues when you can look at actual historical and sociological analyses
10125
10126[12-May-19 06:04 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10127Because it is an interesting factor?
10128
10129[12-May-19 06:04 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10130If you don’t find it interesting you don’t have to participate.
10131
10132[12-May-19 06:06 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
10133So when stalin was trying to push for full collectovisation and de kulakisation when the rest of the party leadership was initially opposed and thought rural collectivisation should be delayed. Do you think that we can explain those differences as being manifestations of stalin's childhood?
10134
10135[12-May-19 06:07 PM] Clapham#0791
10136stalin did bad things cos his daddy was mean to him 😦
10137
10138[12-May-19 06:07 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10139Id love a discussion with, let’s say, just smaller straw men.
10140
10141[12-May-19 06:07 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10142Maybe it is uncomfortable to consider that one of the foremost leaders in communist history may have had severe psychological problems?
10143
10144[12-May-19 06:08 PM] Clapham#0791
10145not really
10146
10147[12-May-19 06:08 PM] Clapham#0791
10148what difference would it make?
10149
10150[12-May-19 06:08 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
10151^
10152
10153[12-May-19 06:08 PM] nudel#9073
10154where are you getting this narrative about stalin having "daddy issues" from?
10155
10156[12-May-19 06:09 PM] Clapham#0791
10157I think people are railing against your narrative because it's really bizzare
10158
10159[12-May-19 06:09 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10160I guess it might make a difference in my mind more than it does yours. 🤷
10161
10162[12-May-19 06:10 PM] nudel#9073
10163like, psychoanalyzing stalin as an individual is wrought with even more issues of poor documentation and subjective interpretation than history usually is, and i dont see exactly what conclusions there are to draw from it
10164
10165[12-May-19 06:10 PM] Clapham#0791
10166ok then?
10167
10168[12-May-19 06:10 PM] Clapham#0791
10169lol
10170
10171[12-May-19 06:10 PM] Clapham#0791
10172Caligulia did the things he did maybe because he was mentally ill
10173
10174[12-May-19 06:10 PM] Clapham#0791
10175......so ....?
10176
10177[12-May-19 06:11 PM] Clapham#0791
10178what are we supposed to do with that?
10179
10180[12-May-19 06:11 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10181As an outsider (non-socialist) looking in, it is striking that one of the most influential and powerful historical figures of communism may have been extremely psychologically disturbed.
10182
10183[12-May-19 06:12 PM] nudel#9073
10184why
10185
10186[12-May-19 06:12 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
10187But what does that mean?
10188
10189[12-May-19 06:12 PM] nudel#9073
10190you could probably draw similar conclusions about any historical movement, no?
10191
10192[12-May-19 06:12 PM] nudel#9073
10193or even any artistic movement
10194
10195[12-May-19 06:13 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
10196What is JJs opinion on Hitler then
10197
10198[12-May-19 06:13 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
10199Hitler was punished severely from his father
10200
10201[12-May-19 06:13 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
10202If we note that hitler was addicted to shit tons of drugs for most of his leadership does this actually tell us anything useful about fascism?
10203
10204[12-May-19 06:13 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
10205That was at the end of the war
10206
10207[12-May-19 06:13 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10208Inspired artists, though often troubled, tend less often to be of the criminal psychopath variety.
10209
10210[12-May-19 06:13 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
10211That there is some sort of link between far right politics and drug abuse?
10212
10213[12-May-19 06:14 PM] Clapham#0791
10214it's not like stalin was incoherent and institutionalised.  Moreover, it's not like leftists / communists 100% agree with all of Stalin's actions or attitudes.  If anything he's the most divisive figure on the left.
10215
10216[12-May-19 06:14 PM] nudel#9073
10217i didnt know we were armchair-diagnosing stalin with antisocial personality disorder now
10218
10219[12-May-19 06:14 PM] Clapham#0791
10220lol
10221
10222[12-May-19 06:14 PM] nudel#9073
10223please show me the papers on this @JuicyJuuce
10224
10225[12-May-19 06:15 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10226Well criminal psychopath would be the most extreme possibility, no doubt.
10227
10228[12-May-19 06:15 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10229Not saying he for sure was at all.
10230
10231[12-May-19 06:15 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10232But I think he was somewhere on that spectrum.
10233
10234[12-May-19 06:15 PM] nudel#9073
10235This whole thing just reeks of great-man history
10236
10237[12-May-19 06:15 PM] Clapham#0791
10238he tried to resign repeatedly, as well
10239
10240[12-May-19 06:15 PM] Clapham#0791
10241if I recall correctly?
10242
10243[12-May-19 06:16 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10244I haven't read any papers on this, @nudel . I just started sharing my thoughts with you guys in this chat. Let's google `psychology of stalin` and maybe we can find some more academic thoughts on this subject...
10245
10246[12-May-19 06:17 PM] nudel#9073
10247you can have fun with that.
10248
10249[12-May-19 06:17 PM] Clapham#0791
10250we're also railing against it because it's coming across as bad faith af
10251
10252[12-May-19 06:17 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10253i think you have lost sight what bad faith means then
10254
10255[12-May-19 06:18 PM] Clapham#0791
10256"let's just psychoanalyse this communist leader and pretend as if I'm not using this to draw subtle aspersions"
10257
10258[12-May-19 06:18 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10259I mean, are you going to pretend that you are not resisting this because of the potential negative "aspersions"?
10260
10261[12-May-19 06:19 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10262I mean, let's be clear: it would make communism look bad.
10263
10264[12-May-19 06:19 PM] nudel#9073
10265I don't even like Stalin's policies, I'm resisting it because it comes across as bad-faith and springing out of a great-man view of history.
10266
10267[12-May-19 06:19 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
10268My problem with it is that what you are saying assumes everyone else in the part y had no brain and was not discussing and considering which policies to impment themselves and debating these things in the central committee. Stalin had to create logical arguements to convince people to go along with his plans he had to convince lots of non mentally ill people to think his policies where correct. So what does it matter if he was mentally ill everyone else was not and they still decided the party should do de-kulakisation because of material factors and because of their ideological beliefs.
10269
10270[12-May-19 06:20 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10271Sure, but it says something about their organizing system that all these supposedly reasonable people may have ended up with a sociopath leading one of the most powerful empires/nations/whatever in existence.
10272
10273[12-May-19 06:21 PM] Clapham#0791
10274case in point Donald Trump?
10275
10276[12-May-19 06:21 PM] Clapham#0791
10277LOL
10278
10279[12-May-19 06:21 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10280Sure, we can compare.
10281
10282[12-May-19 06:21 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
10283Stalin's position was the general secretary
10284
10285[12-May-19 06:21 PM] Clapham#0791
10286sociopath =/= mentally ill, too
10287
10288[12-May-19 06:21 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
10289His role was that he implemented decisions taken by the central committee and sat as one among equals on the politbureu.
10290
10291[12-May-19 06:21 PM] nudel#9073
10292Stalin wasn't singlehandedly ruling the USSR, their policy failures went much deeper than that.
10293
10294[12-May-19 06:22 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10295I mean Donald Trump will go down as the worst President in American history I believe (or at least in the bottom 5 if you ask conservative academics) and he hasn't killed a million of his citizens.
10296
10297[12-May-19 06:22 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10298(not yet 😉 )
10299
10300[12-May-19 06:22 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
10301He didnt have a position that allowed him to make independent decisions all the time he was implementing decisions made by collective bodies.
10302
10303[12-May-19 06:22 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10304I mean on paper, sure.
10305
10306[12-May-19 06:23 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
10307Yes on paper and in the realm of fictions written by Solzhenitsyn he was the omnipresent omnipotent God of everything.
10308
10309[12-May-19 06:23 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10310I think your description vastly understates the power he had. I'm not saying he had absolute dictatorial rule, but he definitely got his way.
10311
10312[12-May-19 06:23 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10313So many straw men.
10314
10315[12-May-19 06:23 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
10316He was influential because he was famous and respected by lots of party members.
10317
10318[12-May-19 06:24 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10319"influential" come on
10320
10321[12-May-19 06:24 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
10322Yes?
10323
10324[12-May-19 06:24 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10325this is tiresome
10326
10327[12-May-19 06:24 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
10328He wasn't the president he didn't sit on the presidium  he had absolutely no power to appoint ministers.
10329
10330[12-May-19 06:25 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
10331Theresa May has more control over her government than stalin had over the ussr
10332
10333[12-May-19 06:25 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10334wow
10335
10336[12-May-19 06:26 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
10337Yes when you have learned everything you know about the ussr from propaganda that you are entirely convinced is true the truth does seem surprising.
10338
10339[12-May-19 06:26 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10340very convincing
10341
10342[12-May-19 06:26 PM] nudel#9073
10343Trump hasn't killed millions of US citizens, but he has overseen countless drone strikes, a US-assisted genocide in Yemen, and US sanctions killing roughly 40,000 Venezuelans.
10344
10345[12-May-19 06:27 PM] nudel#9073
10346Of course, he's also had a much shorter term than Stalin.
10347
10348[12-May-19 06:27 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
10349He’s also currently sanctioning Cuba
10350
10351[12-May-19 06:27 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
10352And starting a trade war with China
10353
10354[12-May-19 06:27 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10355So worst in American history is about 1/20th as bad.
10356
10357[12-May-19 06:27 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
10358Which will cause deaths
10359
10360[12-May-19 06:27 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
10361🤔
10362
10363[12-May-19 06:27 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
10364What
10365
10366[12-May-19 06:27 PM] nudel#9073
10367how's it a twentieth as bad?
10368
10369[12-May-19 06:27 PM] Clapham#0791
10370not saying I necessarily agree with Tsar, but the UK political system is significantly difference to that in the US and affords parliament more powers then you'd think
10371
10372[12-May-19 06:27 PM] nudel#9073
10373I'm pretty sure millions have died in Yemen.
10374
10375[12-May-19 06:27 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
10376Trump isn't the worst in American history either
10377
10378[12-May-19 06:27 PM] Clapham#0791
10379also, Andrew Jackson?
10380
10381[12-May-19 06:27 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
10382Millions of native Americans have died
10383
10384[12-May-19 06:28 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
10385Like far from it
10386
10387[12-May-19 06:28 PM] Clapham#0791
10388😛
10389
10390[12-May-19 06:28 PM] nudel#9073
10391It would be a more fair comparison to look at, say, the past 20 years of US history, which would include all of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, US intervention in Syria and Libya, etc.
10392
10393[12-May-19 06:28 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10394There are good arguments for Jackson being worst.
10395
10396[12-May-19 06:28 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
10397"I mean Donald Trump will go down as the worst President in American history I believe"
10398
10399[12-May-19 06:28 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
10400why
10401
10402[12-May-19 06:28 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10403@CpnNevosity another time
10404
10405[12-May-19 06:29 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10406if you want me to argue against the rightward perspective
10407
10408[12-May-19 06:30 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
10409@Clapham Theresa May on her own initiative can reshuffle the cabinet I.e in one swoop if the leaders of all of the ministries(the bodies that actual implement central policy) are inconveniencing her then she can swap all of them in one day without any other person needing to authorize it at all.
10410
10411[12-May-19 06:30 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
10412Stalin couldn't even remove a commissar
10413
10414[12-May-19 06:30 PM] Clapham#0791
10415that's true ^
10416
10417[12-May-19 06:31 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
10418And commissar had to be appointed by the supreme soviet and stalin's supported appointees lost the vote to their positions multiple times.
10419
10420[12-May-19 06:31 PM] Clapham#0791
10421also, the actual powers of the UK parliament which allow enacting legislation pretty much directly
10422
10423[12-May-19 06:31 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10424I do think you have consider what you are comparing when you compare different death tolls. Like Mao getting ~30 million killed from bad agricultural ideas means he was foolish and the system broken enough to allow it, not that he was a sociopath. Stalin overseeing the Great Terror that executed in the neighborhood of a million people points more towards sociopathy.
10425
10426[12-May-19 06:31 PM] Clapham#0791
10427the only 'protection' is via the unelected house of lords, through which bills need to pass
10428
10429[12-May-19 06:31 PM] Clapham#0791
10430after the house of commons
10431
10432[12-May-19 06:32 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
10433The great terror was largely implemented by local govts
10434
10435[12-May-19 06:33 PM] nudel#9073
10436Mao's agricultural policies didn't kill 30 million people, that's using a very high death toll estimate and attributing the famine exclusively to Mao's policies
10437
10438[12-May-19 06:33 PM] Clapham#0791
10439stalin ate all of the grain though
10440
10441[12-May-19 06:33 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
10442Stalin didn't invent the purge or control on what scale it was enacted.
10443
10444[12-May-19 06:34 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10445I disagree. Stalin tried to wash his hands of it by pinning it all on Yezhov afterwards which was absurdly transparent propaganda. Like, "oops I had no idea!" lol
10446
10447[12-May-19 06:35 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10448But for some reason reds still trot that line out to this day.
10449
10450[12-May-19 06:36 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
10451You cap  say it was absurd but that's not really saying much
10452
10453[12-May-19 06:38 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
10454Is it absurd that the director of the cia could operate his agency without the president being aware of everything he was doing?
10455
10456[12-May-19 06:39 PM] nudel#9073
10457why do you unironically call communists "reds"?
10458
10459[12-May-19 06:39 PM] nudel#9073
10460it makes you sound like a neo-mccarthyite
10461
10462[12-May-19 06:40 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10463Look, overall reds have a history of aggressively suppressing unfavorable information and then afterwards saying, "you need more proof!"
10464
10465This is not unique to communism but they have certainly implemented to a degree like no other. Reds talk about the benefits of suppressing the press and free speech so that they conform to proper class thought and the rest of us on the outside breathe a huge sigh of relieve that they lost the Cold War.
10466
10467Overall what reds portray to the rest of the world is a mountain of denial about their history.
10468
10469[12-May-19 06:41 PM] nudel#9073
10470thank you for changing every instance of the word "communist" or "socialist" to "red" in order to make yourself sound like even more of a boomer
10471
10472[12-May-19 06:41 PM] nudel#9073
10473Russians breathed such a sigh of relief after the USSR collapsed that their life expectancy plummeted.
10474
10475[12-May-19 06:41 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10476Funny that you show another example of falling for propaganda, @nudel 😉
10477
10478[12-May-19 06:41 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10479My dad is a boomer.
10480
10481[12-May-19 06:41 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
10482Maybe capitalist journalists academics and assorted propogandists where organised by the CIA to lie relentlessly about the USSR for the entirety of the cold war and unfortunately most of their lies have stuck.
10483
10484[12-May-19 06:42 PM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10485Anyway, I think I'm petered out here.
10486
10487[12-May-19 07:10 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
10488communists arent people they're 'reds'
10489
10490[12-May-19 07:11 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
10491:Taxation:
10492
10493[12-May-19 09:13 PM] Crezilin#1718
10494Admiral gets it.
10495
10496[13-May-19 02:32 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10497@covfefe2020 the oh-so-innocent Brett Kavanaugh: https://youtu.be/k5ThQee0P2U?t=1m49s
10498
10499[13-May-19 02:32 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10500(3 minutes)
10501
10502[13-May-19 02:32 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10503Ok
10504
10505[13-May-19 02:34 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10506HAH
10507
10508[13-May-19 02:34 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10509is h
10510
10511[13-May-19 02:34 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10512This is exactly what they’re saying about trump
10513
10514[13-May-19 02:35 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10515that boy is guilty as fuuuuuuck
10516
10517[13-May-19 02:35 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10518“It doesn’t matter they Meuller found no collusion, we know he’s guilty because he wanted the investigation to end!”
10519
10520[13-May-19 02:35 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10521Your proof that he’s guilty is that he didn’t want any of this to continue
10522
10523[13-May-19 02:36 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10524A guilty or innocent person wouldn’t want to go through any more
10525
10526[13-May-19 02:36 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10527the ultra disingenuous "I'll do whatever the \*cough\*republicanheld\*cough\* comittee wants"
10528
10529[13-May-19 02:36 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10530You ain’t proved nothing
10531
10532[13-May-19 02:36 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10533Oh THATs what proved he sexually assaulted someone
10534
10535[13-May-19 02:36 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10536Wanting his team to work for him
10537
10538[13-May-19 02:36 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10539I didn't say it was proof. I think an honest person looking at that can see he really has something to hide.
10540
10541Respond as a human being, not as a partisan defender.
10542
10543[13-May-19 02:37 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10544Ok
10545
10546[13-May-19 02:37 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10547If I were in a position where I knew I was guilty I would do that
10548
10549[13-May-19 02:37 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10550I mean he *obviously* really wanted there to be no FBI investigation.
10551
10552[13-May-19 02:37 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10553If I were in a position where I knew I was innocent I wouldn’t want an FBI investigation either
10554
10555[13-May-19 02:38 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10556I would!
10557
10558[13-May-19 02:38 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10559lol
10560
10561[13-May-19 02:38 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10562You saw how much of a waste the trump investigation was
10563
10564[13-May-19 02:38 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10565I think you missed the memo... Barr lied
10566
10567[13-May-19 02:38 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10568Now they’re fighting over what the letter about the end of the report said
10569
10570[13-May-19 02:39 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10571They’re mad at him because Meuller complained that his summary letter didn’t accurately summarize the feel of the report
10572
10573[13-May-19 02:39 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10574exactly
10575
10576[13-May-19 02:39 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10577They’re calling it a big evil cover up
10578
10579[13-May-19 02:39 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10580yet conservatives eagerly ate up Barr's summary
10581
10582[13-May-19 02:39 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10583Only one problem
10584
10585[13-May-19 02:39 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10586**You can read the report right now**
10587
10588[13-May-19 02:39 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10589as if they had their brain's wiped about the *obvious* one and only reason Barr was put into that position
10590
10591[13-May-19 02:40 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10592It was inconclusive on collusion and pretty damning on obstruction
10593
10594[13-May-19 02:40 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10595**The letter doesn’t matter, nothing is covered up, you can see it all online**
10596
10597[13-May-19 02:40 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
10598Isn’t the mueller report heavily redacted
10599
10600[13-May-19 02:40 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10601yes
10602
10603[13-May-19 02:41 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
10604“Nothing is covered up”
10605
10606[13-May-19 02:41 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10607And I’m sure it’s in those black spots that the true evidence lies!
10608
10609[13-May-19 02:41 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10610https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/04/19/what-attorney-general-barr-said-vs-what-mueller-report-said/
10611
10612[13-May-19 02:41 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10613You see Meuller did find collusion but Barr covered it up
10614
10615[13-May-19 02:41 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10616:honk:
10617
10618[13-May-19 02:42 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10619Anyway, if you listen to that video of Kav and still think he is trustworthy then we live in two different worlds.
10620
10621[13-May-19 02:42 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10622Oh frick
10623
10624[13-May-19 02:43 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
10625I’m just saying that you can’t say “nothing is covered up” while pages of the report are literally covered up
10626
10627[13-May-19 02:43 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10628Barr didn’t put in the report that the Russians think they would benefit from trump!
10629
10630[13-May-19 02:43 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10631That is so freaking important
10632
10633[13-May-19 02:43 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10634Except for the part where Meuller didn’t find evidence of collusion
10635
10636[13-May-19 02:43 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10637So
10638
10639[13-May-19 02:43 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10640Like out of anyone, you had to stick with *that* guy?
10641
10642[13-May-19 02:43 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10643Good thing it was just a summary
10644
10645[13-May-19 02:44 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10646And that you don’t need the summary because you can read the report
10647
10648[13-May-19 02:44 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10649I mean the narrative was set by Barr
10650
10651[13-May-19 02:44 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10652Narrative?
10653
10654[13-May-19 02:44 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10655The narrative of no collusion?
10656
10657[13-May-19 02:44 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10658Conservadom ate it up. They don't want to hear about the massive evidence of obstruction that Barr covered up.
10659
10660[13-May-19 02:45 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10661If he covered it up how do you know about it?
10662
10663[13-May-19 02:45 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10664Exactly, the report didn't say there was no collusion, just that it was inconclusive.
10665
10666[13-May-19 02:45 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10667Hmmmmmm
10668
10669[13-May-19 02:45 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10670But you guys bought the narrative.
10671
10672[13-May-19 02:45 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10673And that is why Barr was put there.
10674
10675[13-May-19 02:45 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10676He investigated for 2 years
10677
10678[13-May-19 02:45 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10679That exact reason.
10680
10681[13-May-19 02:45 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10682If he didn’t find enough evidence
10683
10684[13-May-19 02:46 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10685And Trump obstructed the investigation at every turn.
10686
10687[13-May-19 02:46 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10688You’re holding onto a thread
10689
10690[13-May-19 02:46 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10691News flash
10692
10693[13-May-19 02:46 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10694Acting like a brat and telling aides to fire people isn’t obstruction
10695
10696[13-May-19 02:46 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10697except
10698
10699[13-May-19 02:46 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10700wait for it
10701
10702[13-May-19 02:46 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10703*it is*
10704
10705[13-May-19 02:46 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10706I’m waiting
10707
10708[13-May-19 02:46 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10709among other things
10710
10711[13-May-19 02:46 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10712**Intent matters**
10713
10714[13-May-19 02:47 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10715I guess you can't convict of obstruction if you don't have a mind reader.
10716
10717[13-May-19 02:47 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10718Better tell all the lawyers
10719
10720[13-May-19 02:47 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10721Was his intent to stop them from the truth?
10722
10723[13-May-19 02:47 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10724Or to stop a massive two year waste of time and news coverage
10725
10726[13-May-19 02:47 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10727I mean
10728
10729[13-May-19 02:48 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10730Seeing as there was no evil truth to find out
10731
10732[13-May-19 02:48 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10733I’m gonna guess that it was the latter
10734
10735[13-May-19 02:48 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10736So the president should be able to obstruct investigations into himself? You can't possibly be serious.
10737
10738[13-May-19 02:48 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10739Did he stop the investigations?
10740
10741[13-May-19 02:48 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10742"Hey guys, the President says there is nothing to see here"
10743
10744[13-May-19 02:48 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10745He could have if he wanted to
10746
10747[13-May-19 02:48 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10748"Pack it up"
10749
10750[13-May-19 02:48 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10751But guess what
10752
10753[13-May-19 02:48 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10754The investigation concluded
10755
10756[13-May-19 02:48 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10757He obstructed the investigation, yes.
10758
10759[13-May-19 02:49 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10760Okay you are dodging the point bad.
10761
10762[13-May-19 02:49 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
10763He could have easily covered it up if he wanted to
10764
10765[13-May-19 02:49 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10766Like I think you know that you are dodging the point.
10767
10768[13-May-19 02:49 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
10769He’s got the CIA on his side and the FBI investigating him
10770
10771[13-May-19 02:49 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
10772CIA can cover shit up and make sure no one ever knows or hear of it
10773
10774[13-May-19 02:49 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10775Trump could have had Meuller fired
10776
10777[13-May-19 02:50 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10778"I could have murdered you, be glad I only stabbed you!"
10779
10780[13-May-19 02:50 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
10781Do you think that trump colluded with the Russians?
10782
10783[13-May-19 02:50 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10784Me?
10785
10786[13-May-19 02:50 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
10787Yes
10788
10789[13-May-19 02:51 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10790Guys just because they didn’t find collusion doesn’t mean there wasn’t collusion
10791
10792[13-May-19 02:51 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10793I think he has a lot of shady goings on with the Russians and is desperate to keep it hidden.
10794
10795[13-May-19 02:51 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10796I know there was
10797
10798[13-May-19 02:51 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10799It is like the commies burning evidence and then saying, "show us the evidence!"
10800
10801[13-May-19 02:51 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
10802If He had anything they could use don't you think it would have came out in the investigation?
10803
10804[13-May-19 02:52 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10805The tv guy told me trump had Russian prostitutes pee on him then Putin put on his hacker glasses then people voted for trump
10806
10807[13-May-19 02:52 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10808I mean, the word "obstruction" has a meaning.
10809
10810[13-May-19 02:52 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10811I don't know, Tsar. That's the point.
10812
10813[13-May-19 02:52 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
10814It's not like trump is going to be impeached for obstruction.
10815
10816[13-May-19 02:53 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10817Again
10818
10819[13-May-19 02:53 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10820Why do you use straw men all the time?
10821
10822[13-May-19 02:53 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10823Trump acts like a child
10824
10825[13-May-19 02:53 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10826Like you just are deflecting, Tsar.
10827
10828[13-May-19 02:53 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10829He runs around telling people to stop doing their job
10830
10831[13-May-19 02:53 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10832Not because he’s guilty
10833
10834[13-May-19 02:53 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10835Oh the, "he's just a baffoon" defense. I guess he gets a pass then?
10836
10837[13-May-19 02:54 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10838Because he doesn’t like being portrayed as the guy who got investigated for 1/8 of his presidency
10839
10840[13-May-19 02:54 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10841I honestly need to go to sleep.
10842
10843[13-May-19 02:54 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10844Yeah
10845
10846[13-May-19 02:54 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10847I’m pulling that defense
10848
10849[13-May-19 02:54 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10850It’s reasonable
10851
10852[13-May-19 02:54 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10853I mean
10854
10855[13-May-19 02:54 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10856You are giving him an excuse for obstructing the investigation.
10857
10858[13-May-19 02:54 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
10859It worked for reagan
10860
10861[13-May-19 02:54 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10862I’m saying the investigation wasn’t obstructed
10863
10864[13-May-19 02:54 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10865It got to its conclusion just fine
10866
10867[13-May-19 02:54 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10868Then you haven't read the report
10869
10870[13-May-19 02:55 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10871No matter what trump wanted
10872
10873[13-May-19 02:55 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10874Because the evidence for obstruction is damning.
10875
10876[13-May-19 02:55 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10877He got damned hard
10878
10879[13-May-19 02:55 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10880nice meme retort
10881
10882[13-May-19 02:55 AM] Clapham#0791
10883oh shit it's lib vs conservative lib
10884
10885[13-May-19 02:56 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10886If he hadn’t said he didn’t like the investigation they definitely would have absolute proof he helped Putin hack the election
10887
10888[13-May-19 02:56 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10889I mean you are just doing party before country. You would never stand for it if a Democrat did this.
10890
10891[13-May-19 02:56 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10892What
10893
10894[13-May-19 02:56 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10895Tried to get in the way of and undermine an ~~election~~ *investigation* at every turn. Spending two years telling your AG to fire the guy investigating you.
10896
10897[13-May-19 02:57 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10898But guess what
10899
10900[13-May-19 02:57 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10901The guy didn’t get fired
10902
10903[13-May-19 02:57 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10904Stop the press
10905
10906[13-May-19 02:57 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10907Man, this is such a dishonest defense. You would not feel that way if a Democrat did this.
10908
10909[13-May-19 02:57 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10910The investigation came to the wrong conclusion because trump hated Meuller
10911
10912[13-May-19 02:58 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10913oof
10914
10915[13-May-19 02:58 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10916great straw man
10917
10918[13-May-19 02:58 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10919alright I really need to go to bed
10920
10921[13-May-19 02:58 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10922I like to think a Democrat wouldn’t be accused of of this crap but that’s just my partisanship speaking
10923
10924[13-May-19 02:58 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
10925I mean bill Clinton did alot of shady shit
10926
10927[13-May-19 02:58 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10928You literally just said “yeah well you would agree with me if you were democrat take that”
10929
10930[13-May-19 02:59 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10931No, I said you would agree if it was a Democrat president.
10932
10933[13-May-19 02:59 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
10934Def
10935
10936[13-May-19 02:59 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10937No
10938
10939[13-May-19 02:59 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10940you 100% would
10941
10942[13-May-19 02:59 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
10943Dems and gops tend to do the exact same shit
10944
10945[13-May-19 02:59 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
10946But it’s ok for one
10947
10948[13-May-19 02:59 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
10949But not the other
10950
10951[13-May-19 02:59 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10952but you've created a defense that you've absorbed from conservative media
10953
10954[13-May-19 02:59 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
10955During the terms
10956
10957[13-May-19 03:00 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10958conservatives would have **crucified** Obama for this
10959
10960[13-May-19 03:00 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
10961Obama does thing, conservatives freak out dems defend
10962
10963[13-May-19 03:00 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
10964Trump does same thing, dems freak out conservatives defend
10965
10966[13-May-19 03:00 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
10967Literal clown world
10968
10969[13-May-19 03:00 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10970Me saying that you would agree with me if this was a Democrat president doesn’t change anything
10971
10972[13-May-19 03:00 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10973I mean it would have been a disgustingly authoritarian move if Obama did this. But conservatives seem to cozy up to authoritarians if its their guy.
10974
10975[13-May-19 03:00 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10976Good for you orby you’re too woke for our oppressive system
10977
10978[13-May-19 03:01 AM] Clapham#0791
10979it's almost as if the republicans and the democrats are essentially identical in everything except the most perfunctory social issues 😮
10980
10981[13-May-19 03:01 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
10982Definitely not
10983
10984[13-May-19 03:01 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10985What’s authoritarian that he did?
10986
10987[13-May-19 03:01 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10988the both sides peanut gallery is soooooo insightful :yawn:
10989
10990[13-May-19 03:01 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10991thanks socialists
10992
10993[13-May-19 03:01 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
10994very useful contribution
10995
10996[13-May-19 03:01 AM] covfefe2020#7724
10997All I know is that if Obama did it I would disagree
10998
10999[13-May-19 03:01 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11000Obviously
11001
11002[13-May-19 03:02 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
11003conservatives would have crucified him
11004
11005[13-May-19 03:02 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11006I’m just a stupid sheep of the GOP
11007
11008[13-May-19 03:02 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
11009You are welcome
11010
11011[13-May-19 03:02 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
11012you know they would have
11013
11014[13-May-19 03:02 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
11015hide behind meme responses if you like
11016
11017[13-May-19 03:02 AM] Clapham#0791
11018imagine falling for the false dichotomy pageantry
11019
11020[13-May-19 03:02 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
11021but you know it is true
11022
11023[13-May-19 03:02 AM] Clapham#0791
11024lol
11025
11026[13-May-19 03:02 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11027If conservatives  would have crucified him then it still would have been wrong
11028
11029[13-May-19 03:02 AM] Clapham#0791
11030but yeah, you're welcome because obviously you needed it pointed out
11031
11032[13-May-19 03:02 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11033A similar thing did happen
11034
11035[13-May-19 03:02 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11036This is like the Birther movement
11037
11038[13-May-19 03:03 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
11039Similar? Yea Nixon.
11040
11041[13-May-19 03:03 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11042Some stupid claim that everyone just goes with
11043
11044[13-May-19 03:03 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11045And what do you know it was a stupid claim
11046
11047[13-May-19 03:03 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
11048Imagine liking coke and telling someone who likes Pepsi that they wouldn't be complaining they are too gassy after drinking coke that they wouldn't be saying that if they drank Pepsi.
11049
11050[13-May-19 03:03 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11051But there’s always gonna be people that think obama is a Kenyan
11052
11053[13-May-19 03:03 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
11054A stupid claim that Trump trumpeted by the way.
11055
11056[13-May-19 03:03 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
11057But he is your guy
11058
11059[13-May-19 03:03 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11060Yeah
11061
11062[13-May-19 03:04 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11063You ever see that video of the birth certificate reveal?
11064
11065[13-May-19 03:04 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11066It’s hilarious
11067
11068[13-May-19 03:04 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
11069that's nice
11070
11071[13-May-19 03:04 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
11072ok, i sleep now
11073
11074[13-May-19 03:04 AM] Clapham#0791
11075at least the republicans are funny
11076
11077[13-May-19 03:04 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11078Goodngiht
11079
11080[13-May-19 03:04 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
11081g'nite
11082
11083[13-May-19 03:05 AM] Clapham#0791
11084democrats are just slimy in their duplicity, republicans are more obviously evil
11085
11086[13-May-19 03:05 AM] Clapham#0791
11087to the point of hilarity
11088
11089[13-May-19 03:05 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
11090Republicans are stupid evil
11091
11092[13-May-19 03:05 AM] Clapham#0791
11093my chemistry teacher had a massive poster outside his wall with George Bush Jr. quotes
11094
11095[13-May-19 03:06 AM] Clapham#0791
11096and this was a random high school in Wales
11097
11098[13-May-19 03:06 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
11099They are like b movie villains
11100
11101[13-May-19 03:06 AM] Clapham#0791
11102republicans are legendary
11103
11104[13-May-19 03:06 AM] Clapham#0791
11105for the wrong reasons
11106
11107[13-May-19 03:06 AM] Clapham#0791
11108^
11109
11110[13-May-19 03:07 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
11111I prefer watching the republicans tbh
11112
11113[13-May-19 03:08 AM] Clapham#0791
11114it's like playing bingo
11115
11116[13-May-19 03:08 AM] Clapham#0791
11117- > Jingoistic nonsense
11118
11119[13-May-19 03:08 AM] Clapham#0791
11120-> Free market tirade
11121
11122[13-May-19 03:08 AM] Clapham#0791
11123-> Licking the dick of christianity
11124
11125[13-May-19 03:08 AM] Clapham#0791
11126etc
11127
11128[13-May-19 03:08 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11129Here’s my epic republican meme of the day
11130https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/577391789070221312/image0.png
11131
11132[13-May-19 03:09 AM] Clapham#0791
11133the right can't meme
11134
11135[13-May-19 03:09 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11136That’s from OKBR silly
11137
11138[13-May-19 03:09 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
11139Whenever I watch a democratic candidate apart from the 2 not bad ones I hate them they are so slimy and obviously opportunists. Whereas some republicans at least seem to believe the nonsense they are saying and what they say is sometimes unintentionally hilarious.
11140
11141[13-May-19 03:09 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11142It was made ironically
11143
11144[13-May-19 03:09 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11145As shown from the slight frying of it
11146
11147[13-May-19 03:09 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11148They’re all liberals tho
11149
11150[13-May-19 03:10 AM] Clapham#0791
11151yeah at least republicans sincerely believe the nonsense they're spouting, maybe
11152
11153[13-May-19 03:10 AM] Clapham#0791
11154I can respect that
11155
11156[13-May-19 03:10 AM] Clapham#0791
11157lol
11158
11159[13-May-19 03:10 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11160You should be able to tell this is ironic as well
11161https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/577392197863735312/image0.jpg
11162
11163[13-May-19 03:11 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11164Trust me
11165
11166[13-May-19 03:11 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11167Hey this is a 100% real I found on Facebook meme
11168https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/577392347168636928/image0.jpg
11169
11170[13-May-19 03:11 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11171It’s not a joke
11172
11173[13-May-19 03:11 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11174Republicans are just that dumb
11175
11176[13-May-19 03:11 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
11177Real Americans find this funny
11178
11179[13-May-19 03:11 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11180Boomers memes
11181
11182[13-May-19 03:11 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11183
11184https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/577392571052195860/image0.jpg
11185
11186[13-May-19 03:11 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11187Top quality
11188
11189[13-May-19 03:12 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11190I’m a patriot and I pissed my pants when I saw that
11191
11192[13-May-19 03:12 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11193
11194https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/577392642422341632/image0.jpg
11195
11196[13-May-19 03:12 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11197He forgot about BASIC ECONOMICS
11198
11199[13-May-19 03:12 AM] Clapham#0791
11200if only marx had studied economics101
11201
11202[13-May-19 03:12 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11203Stopide santa ripoff
11204
11205[13-May-19 03:12 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11206
11207https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/577392737016348682/image0.png
11208
11209[13-May-19 03:12 AM] Clapham#0791
11210I like you x, you seem to have a sense of humour
11211
11212[13-May-19 03:12 AM] Clapham#0791
11213now just change your ideology
11214
11215[13-May-19 03:12 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11216The boot refrigerator
11217
11218[13-May-19 03:13 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11219Covfeve is ok when he’s not around the other idiots in this server
11220
11221[13-May-19 03:13 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11222And he’s somewhat receptive to things
11223
11224[13-May-19 03:13 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11225
11226https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/577392919355588622/image0.jpg
11227
11228[13-May-19 03:13 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11229
11230https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/577393028222943243/image0.jpg
11231
11232[13-May-19 03:13 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11233
11234https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/577393072380575745/image0.jpg
11235
11236[13-May-19 03:14 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
11237X and rightcom Milton are both okay for right wingers
11238
11239[13-May-19 03:14 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11240Oh frick they’re in the trees
11241
11242[13-May-19 03:14 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11243I haven’t talked to Milton much
11244
11245[13-May-19 03:14 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11246
11247https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/577393182086660096/image0.jpg
11248
11249[13-May-19 03:14 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11250Hm
11251
11252[13-May-19 03:14 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11253
11254https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/577393229713113098/image0.jpg
11255
11256[13-May-19 03:14 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11257Adam Smith against landlords
11258
11259[13-May-19 03:15 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11260
11261https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/577393350554943548/image0.jpg
11262
11263[13-May-19 03:15 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11264Blyatman
11265
11266[13-May-19 03:15 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11267Adam Smith has some good quotes.
11268
11269[13-May-19 03:15 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11270Hahahahah I’m like so into Russian culture
11271
11272[13-May-19 03:15 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11273I’m quirky
11274
11275[13-May-19 03:15 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11276Crap this ain’t the meme channel
11277
11278[13-May-19 03:15 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
11279Adam Smith was cool
11280
11281[13-May-19 03:15 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11282Sorry fellas
11283
11284[13-May-19 03:15 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11285
11286https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/577393555077726208/image0.jpg
11287
11288[13-May-19 03:17 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11289Wo
11290
11291[13-May-19 03:17 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11292That’s woke man
11293
11294[13-May-19 03:17 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11295I am freed from my metal chains
11296
11297[13-May-19 03:18 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11298Also we should behead anyone who thinks he should wear da bob do today
11299
11300[13-May-19 03:18 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11301Da minion is basically god
11302
11303[13-May-19 03:18 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11304And crap I stayed up till 2 debating with crezlin why we shouldn’t starve people
11305
11306[13-May-19 03:18 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11307I’m a waste of life
11308
11309[13-May-19 03:20 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11310Gn
11311
11312[13-May-19 03:21 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
11313Gn
11314
11315[13-May-19 03:26 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11316You’re not a waste of life
11317
11318[13-May-19 03:26 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11319Just crezilin is
11320
11321[13-May-19 03:26 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11322:Taxation:
11323
11324[13-May-19 03:26 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
11325I don't know what you mean
11326
11327[13-May-19 03:26 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
11328I have school now that's depressing as fuck
11329
11330[13-May-19 03:26 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11331School sux
11332
11333[13-May-19 03:27 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
11334My school is like a comedy show
11335
11336[13-May-19 03:27 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
11337And sitcom
11338
11339[13-May-19 03:28 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11340In what way?
11341
11342[13-May-19 03:31 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
11343Idiots, bad jokes, racism
11344
11345[13-May-19 03:31 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
11346Weird teachers, insiders, friends and flashbacks
11347
11348[13-May-19 03:33 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
11349Your school has flashbacks?
11350
11351[13-May-19 03:33 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
11352Nice
11353
11354[13-May-19 03:34 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
11355Yes
11356
11357[13-May-19 03:34 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
11358At least my friends and I remember some things happened in the past here
11359
11360[13-May-19 03:41 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11361My highschool had big local newsworthy troubles with racism after I left
11362
11363[13-May-19 03:42 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11364
11365https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/577400283538259969/image0.png
11366
11367[13-May-19 03:43 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11368
11369https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/577400443232059392/image0.png
11370
11371[13-May-19 03:45 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
11372I've never heard of a spirit week before what are they?
11373
11374[13-May-19 03:46 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11375It’s like a “relaxed” week where they celebrate school pride with different events
11376
11377[13-May-19 03:46 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
11378Oh
11379
11380[13-May-19 03:46 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11381So each day will be themed a certain way
11382
11383[13-May-19 03:46 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11384There’s usually a “white out day” where everyone dresses in white
11385
11386[13-May-19 03:47 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11387We had twin day where people dressed like each other
11388
11389[13-May-19 03:47 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11390Usually culminating in senior prank day/general school pride day
11391
11392[13-May-19 03:47 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11393Everyone decked out in T-shirt’s and face paint and whatever ostentatious things they wanted
11394
11395[13-May-19 03:47 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
11396I think there was something analogous in my school where we did something themed and there was usually a school trip of something on one of the days.
11397
11398[13-May-19 03:47 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11399And the seniors would dirty up the halls with stuff
11400
11401[13-May-19 03:48 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11402Like confetti, wall paint, signs etc
11403
11404[13-May-19 03:48 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11405The school has a glass connecting hallway between the buildings in the shape of a T and my class filled it with balloons
11406
11407[13-May-19 03:48 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11408I always felt spirit week was dumb as fuck
11409
11410[13-May-19 03:49 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11411I actually accidentally took part in white out day and didn’t notice till halfway through the day
11412
11413[13-May-19 03:49 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11414After I was like “ayyy white shirt” to everyone with a white shirt like I was wearing
11415
11416[13-May-19 03:49 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
11417Damn that's like they stole school spirit from you or something
11418
11419[13-May-19 03:50 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11420😔
11421
11422[13-May-19 03:50 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11423Idk I felt like school pride wasn’t worth the embarrassment of dressing up weird
11424
11425[13-May-19 03:51 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
11426Doing dumb things for the school is never worth it.
11427
11428[13-May-19 03:51 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11429Yea tbh
11430
11431[13-May-19 03:52 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11432I did this one thing skillsUSA which was like a statewide competition between other votech students
11433
11434[13-May-19 03:52 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11435I competed in a programming competition twice lol
11436
11437[13-May-19 03:52 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11438Didn’t rank high enough to go to national competition
11439
11440[13-May-19 03:52 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
11441That's pretty cool
11442
11443[13-May-19 03:53 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11444Yea there were some cool events at it
11445
11446[13-May-19 03:53 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11447Like a woodworking one where thy had to build something in a few hours
11448
11449[13-May-19 03:53 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
11450Was it like a multi day thing?
11451
11452[13-May-19 03:53 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11453The trip was but the competition was one day
11454
11455[13-May-19 03:53 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
11456Cool
11457
11458[13-May-19 03:53 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11459Yea
11460
11461[13-May-19 03:53 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11462It was fun because of the overnight part lol
11463
11464[13-May-19 03:54 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11465The actual day of the competition was pretty boring
11466
11467[13-May-19 03:54 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11468You had like 2 hours of actually doing your competition and then had to sit around the whole day without going back to the hotel room
11469
11470[13-May-19 03:54 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
11471Yeah trips where you get to stay somewhere with a group where always fun for the shit that happened
11472
11473[13-May-19 03:55 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
11474Where you at a hotel or something.
11475
11476[13-May-19 03:55 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11477So like my programming comp was at 11am so I would have to wake up at 8/9 get dressed (they judged us on uniform too) do our comp, then go back to the hotel and wait until like 6pm for food then the award show till 9-10 then drive home on the bus
11478
11479[13-May-19 03:56 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11480Yea we stayed in a hotel but the event was at a college and the award show was at a convention attached to the hotel
11481
11482[13-May-19 03:56 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11483It was real tedious event
11484
11485[13-May-19 03:57 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
11486Yeah programming competitions don't sound very exciting
11487
11488[13-May-19 03:57 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11489None of the other competitions were particularly exciting too
11490
11491[13-May-19 03:57 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11492My friend did a web design comp on a team
11493
11494[13-May-19 03:57 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
11495Oof
11496
11497[13-May-19 03:57 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11498Iirc they failed hard lmao
11499
11500[13-May-19 03:58 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
11501I hated having to do web design
11502
11503[13-May-19 03:58 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11504Some of the competitions were like weird business ones
11505
11506[13-May-19 03:58 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
11507Well we had to do alot of it for IT
11508
11509[13-May-19 03:58 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11510And I never really understood what they had to do
11511
11512[13-May-19 03:58 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
11513For the future ruling class
11514
11515[13-May-19 03:58 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
11516Because you are a simple prole
11517
11518[13-May-19 03:58 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11519My school had a business program
11520
11521[13-May-19 03:59 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11522🤢
11523
11524[13-May-19 03:59 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11525All the kids in my grade in that program like frat guys with very rich parents
11526
11527[13-May-19 03:59 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11528Aside from like 2 of them
11529
11530[13-May-19 03:59 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11531But they’re all annoying ass people
11532
11533[13-May-19 03:59 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11534My class was IT/DC so it was pretty chill
11535
11536[13-May-19 04:00 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
11537You spent half your time debating communism?
11538
11539[13-May-19 04:00 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11540I went the IT route so I got Cisco networking certified and A+ computer repair certified
11541
11542[13-May-19 04:00 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11543I wasn’t a commie then lol
11544
11545[13-May-19 04:00 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11546I was still kinda liberal around that point 😔
11547
11548[13-May-19 04:01 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
11549We got offered a business studies A level and it sounded very dumb
11550
11551[13-May-19 04:01 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
11552I think we could do it at GCSE too
11553
11554[13-May-19 04:02 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
11555I think was literally like what is the difference between revenue profit etc and what type of companies are their bullshit
11556
11557[13-May-19 04:02 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11558We had a mandatory college level economics class that was similar
11559
11560[13-May-19 04:02 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11561We also had some mandatory business classes for my program
11562
11563[13-May-19 04:03 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11564I nearly failed all of them because the first teacher was shit at teaching
11565
11566[13-May-19 04:03 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11567Econ I took senior year final semester
11568
11569[13-May-19 04:03 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11570Which you can imagine how well that went lmao
11571
11572[13-May-19 04:03 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
11573Imagine failing at business so hard you have to become a business teacher
11574
11575[13-May-19 04:04 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11576:Taxation:
11577
11578[13-May-19 04:04 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11579They didn’t really even teach us like how the market works or anything
11580
11581[13-May-19 04:04 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11582It was just boring definitions and stuff
11583
11584[13-May-19 04:04 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11585Supply and demand and other basic shit
11586
11587[13-May-19 04:04 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
11588Bullshit you just need to cram
11589
11590[13-May-19 04:05 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
11591I hated stuff like that
11592
11593[13-May-19 04:06 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11594
11595https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/577406353728077837/image0.png
11596
11597[13-May-19 04:06 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11598I used to take my notes on google drive
11599
11600[13-May-19 04:07 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11601And this is my only notes for the personal finance (economics) class I had to take
11602
11603[13-May-19 04:07 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
11604Maths is boring
11605
11606[13-May-19 04:07 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11607Math was like the only class I did well at in highschool along with my IT stuff lol
11608
11609[13-May-19 04:08 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
11610Maths was good when you had a good teacher
11611
11612[13-May-19 04:08 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11613I had an environmental studies elective with a really chill teacher and it was really fun
11614
11615[13-May-19 04:08 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11616Maths with a good teacher is so interesting and fun
11617
11618[13-May-19 04:09 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
11619We had a really good teacher who had a really dry sense of humour who used to actually rip the shit out of people especially of they said something dumb or something.
11620
11621[13-May-19 04:09 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11622Freshman year my algebra 1 teacher disappeared like 2 months in out of the 5 month semester
11623
11624[13-May-19 04:09 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11625And we had a bunch of different subs for a while that weren’t kept up on what we did
11626
11627[13-May-19 04:09 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11628It was shit
11629
11630[13-May-19 04:10 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11631All my maths teachers after that were really great tho
11632
11633[13-May-19 04:10 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11634Same thing happened with my college calc professor in HS too lmao
11635
11636[13-May-19 04:10 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11637He disappeared to Vegas because someone in his family died and left him a bunch of money
11638
11639[13-May-19 04:10 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11640I love when maths teachers explain why things work and break things down
11641
11642[13-May-19 04:11 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11643And not just throw formulas at you
11644
11645[13-May-19 04:11 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11646Because if you know why the formulas work you can usually backtrack if you forget the actual formula
11647
11648[13-May-19 04:12 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
11649Yeah we used to have a physics teacher who was really good at that and used to go off on interesting tangents explaining stuff that was too.complex to be in the course since we where top set.
11650
11651[13-May-19 04:13 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
11652When he really got going he would be waving his arms around really dramitacally to emobasise what he was saying.
11653
11654[13-May-19 04:14 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11655Lol
11656
11657[13-May-19 04:14 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11658Fun teachers are so great
11659
11660[13-May-19 04:14 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
11661It's nice when a teacher is actually excited about teaching you something.
11662
11663[13-May-19 04:14 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11664Yea
11665
11666[13-May-19 04:15 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11667My school had some really shit teachers and some that were really enthusiastic about what they were doing
11668
11669[13-May-19 04:15 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11670Not many in the middle
11671
11672[13-May-19 04:15 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11673But the ones who cared were usually pretty relaxed with the students and made learning a lot more fun and enjoyable
11674
11675[13-May-19 04:16 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11676When you build up an actual respectful relationship with the teacher and they clearly aren’t just forcing information at you it’s a much easier and stress free learning environment
11677
11678[13-May-19 04:17 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11679Teacher student hierarchy can easily break students down
11680
11681[13-May-19 04:18 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
11682Yeah alot of teachers just demand respect and then treat the class like shit.
11683
11684[13-May-19 04:19 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
11685If a teacher makes the effort to win the class over it usually goes alot better.
11686
11687[13-May-19 04:21 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11688And like there’s some benefit to being strict, but I’ve found it much easier to control when a mutual relationship is built
11689
11690[13-May-19 04:22 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11691Like sometimes if the students respect the teacher, other students will tell others to stop talking or pay attention or something for the teacher
11692
11693[13-May-19 04:23 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
11694Yeah teachers that try to be disciplininarian can just start this like on going tit for tat thing with the class.
11695
11696[13-May-19 04:24 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
11697And the kids "bad" kids will hate them and thus will react emotionally when the teacher tries to control them and it will lead to conflicts that could have been avoided.
11698
11699[13-May-19 04:28 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
11700A teacher can generally get away with being strict if they are funny about it except with exceptionally difficult people.
11701
11702[13-May-19 04:40 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11703https://thesternfacts.com/source-build-the-wall-gofundme-just-paid-for-a-nearly-1-million-yacht-not-a-wall-72958836bd0c
11704
11705[13-May-19 04:40 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11706@covfefe2020 :feels:
11707
11708[13-May-19 04:50 AM] Clapham#0791
11709actually decent chapo post https://www.reddit.com/r/ChapoTrapHouse/comments/bnvldd/yemen_on_brink_of_worlds_worst_famine_in_100/
11710
11711[13-May-19 04:50 AM] Clapham#0791
11712```Why is the media continuing to push the Venezuela narrative when there is an objectively worse disaster happening?
11713
11714> they don't actually care about famines, human rights, etc```
11715
11716[13-May-19 04:57 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11717Why would socialism do this :reeee:
11718
11719[13-May-19 04:57 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11720@JuicyJuuce
11721
11722[13-May-19 10:39 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
11723It’s a shitshow. Saudis trying to prevent Iran from getting a stronghold in their back yard; the U.S. wanting to a) contain Iran and b) keep Saudi Arabia, their oil trading partner, stable. The death toll seems to be on the order of 100,000. Both the Saudis and the Houthis committing war crimes to various degrees by hitting civilian targets.
11724
11725This is kind of removed but this kind of thing (and Iraq) is why I think it is so important to take measures to significantly reduce our oil consumption. I’m a big believer in electric cars as well as a big carbon tax. 
11726
11727I know the socialist line is to just blame it on capitalism but I don’t think communist parties over the course of history have acted much better when it comes to resources.
11728
11729[13-May-19 10:44 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11730Famines happen in regions known for famines
11731>socialism killed 100 million people no food lol
11732
11733[13-May-19 10:45 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11734Famine happens anywhere else
11735>meh it’s unavoidable what can we do
11736
11737[13-May-19 10:45 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11738:Taxation:
11739
11740[13-May-19 10:47 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
11741:Taxation:
11742
11743[13-May-19 11:14 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
11744Eh, that’s a stretch of a connection you are trying to make... a small portion of the ~100,000 dead are due to starvation. And comparing civil war starvation with peace time starvation is a hard sell.
11745
11746[13-May-19 11:22 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11747130 kids die a day due to direct causes of America and Saudi Arabia
11748
11749[13-May-19 11:23 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
11750But not the Houthis? Sounds like a narrative.
11751
11752[13-May-19 11:23 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11753This is from the famine
11754
11755[13-May-19 11:24 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11756130 kids starve to death and America and Arabia have set up blockades preventing any shipments of food or supplies in to help
11757
11758[13-May-19 11:25 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
11759They have also let in supplies. It’s not as simple as you want it to be.
11760
11761[13-May-19 11:26 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11762Venezuela has also let in supplies
11763
11764[13-May-19 11:26 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
11765Okay
11766
11767[13-May-19 11:27 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11768🤡
11769
11770[13-May-19 11:27 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
11771Exactly
11772
11773[13-May-19 11:32 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11774`Meanwhile the country’s currency has collapsed and food prices have doubled in the last month, fuelling the threat of famine.`
11775
11776[13-May-19 11:33 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11777Yemen’s corrupt government should have focused less on authoritarian spending on its citizens and focused more on stabilizing the country
11778
11779[13-May-19 11:33 AM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11780Should have predicted that civil war should happen and the economy would collapse
11781
11782[13-May-19 11:57 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
11783https://reason.com/2019/05/10/on-free-trade-even-karl-marx-is-smarter-than-donald-trump/
11784
11785[13-May-19 12:19 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
11786https://reason.com/2019/05/13/the-new-green-serfdom/
11787
11788[13-May-19 12:22 PM] Connolly#4281
11789@Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism >reason.com
11790
11791[13-May-19 12:33 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
11792"Socialist leader Norman Thomas called this "a scheme which in essence is fascist." The NRA itself issued a report that stated, "The Fascist Principles are very similar to those we have been evolving here in America." In 1935, the Supreme Court ruled the NRA's "codes of fair competition" unconstitutional, saying they violating the Constitution's separation of powers as well as the Commerce Clause. Small wonder that New Left historians accused the agency of championing a corporatist economy" FDR and by extension AOC are social-fascist? This has got to be one of the most spurious accusations of fascism o have ever read.
11793
11794[13-May-19 03:24 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
11795https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/13/venezuela-news-latest-guaido-us-military-help-maduro
11796
11797[13-May-19 03:28 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11798:thebigsad:
11799
11800[13-May-19 03:28 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11801US assistance :thebigsad:
11802
11803[13-May-19 03:28 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11804Guaidó gets killed by the US and it gets framed on maduro justifying a military dictatorship
11805
11806[13-May-19 03:29 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
11807Pinochet 2.0
11808
11809[13-May-19 03:30 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
11810He could ask th Venezuelan Army like he did 5000000 times
11811
11812[13-May-19 03:32 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
11813The US boosts Venezuelan Democratic Party with +0.10 Daily Democratic support
11814
11815[13-May-19 05:23 PM] turnips#7959
11816The current leader there is big dumb
11817
11818[13-May-19 09:01 PM] vishnu_fishnoooooooib#5641
11819Anyone want to fight me that we shouldn't build a wall
11820
11821[13-May-19 09:01 PM] CpnNevosity#2145
11822why shuld we
11823
11824[13-May-19 09:03 PM] covfefe2020#7724
11825To reduce illegal immigration
11826
11827[13-May-19 09:03 PM] Crezilin#1718
11828We should eliminate welfare which would cut the U.S's annual budget by approximately 60%.
11829
11830[13-May-19 09:04 PM] Crezilin#1718
11831Actually IIRC I think it was 50%.
11832
11833[13-May-19 09:04 PM] Crezilin#1718
11834Then we can have open borders.
11835
11836[14-May-19 12:23 AM] ĞØĐ Graves#3101
11837Americans and your welfare
11838
11839[14-May-19 12:23 AM] ĞØĐ Graves#3101
11840Too generous
11841
11842[14-May-19 05:50 AM] Clapham#0791
11843https://crimethinc.com/posters/borders-the-global-caste-system
11844
11845[14-May-19 07:53 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
11846
11847https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/577825899345346581/unknown.png
11848
11849[14-May-19 07:56 AM] CpnNevosity#2145
11850@JuicyJuuce sup
11851
11852[14-May-19 07:56 AM] CpnNevosity#2145
11853cease your slander against me good sir
11854
11855[14-May-19 08:11 AM] engelsgang#9451
11856lmfao JJ
11857
11858[14-May-19 08:11 AM] engelsgang#9451
11859I'm certainly glad you're still trotting out the most basic and repetitive liberal points
11860
11861[14-May-19 08:12 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
11862Why is CPN...
11863
11864[14-May-19 08:12 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
11865Okay I won't ask
11866
11867[14-May-19 08:19 AM] turnips#7959
11868He is running for dem leader
11869
11870[14-May-19 08:19 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
11871Lol
11872
11873[14-May-19 08:19 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
11874CPN will seize power
11875
11876[14-May-19 08:22 AM] CpnNevosity#2145
11877i hope
11878
11879[14-May-19 08:23 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
11880CPN for president
11881
11882[14-May-19 08:24 AM] Epsilon#6703
11883cpn for dem leader
11884
11885[14-May-19 08:24 AM] Epsilon#6703
11886oh god
11887
11888[14-May-19 08:57 AM] Clapham#0791
11889"I'm just going to use this graph as a crutch to lean on for why I think global capitalism is good, even though it's been addressed numerous times that the link between it and living standards is tenuous at best"
11890
11891[14-May-19 09:01 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
11892Oops yea I guess I forgot about that excellent “income and standard of living are not correlated” argument based on a slice of history during the early industrial revolution
11893
11894[14-May-19 09:02 AM] engelsgang#9451
11895Or all of colonialism
11896
11897[14-May-19 09:02 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
11898(also I don’t have time to engage much right now)
11899
11900[14-May-19 09:02 AM] engelsgang#9451
11901Or cost of living differentials between urban and rural areas
11902
11903[14-May-19 09:03 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11904CPN will not run until I have seen sufficient evidence he is actually a democrat
11905
11906[14-May-19 09:03 AM] Clapham#0791
11907or how there isn't reliable data from before 1980
11908
11909[14-May-19 09:03 AM] engelsgang#9451
11910Which is, btw, very significant because the world is continuing to urbanize
11911
11912[14-May-19 09:03 AM] Clapham#0791
11913or how the level set for extreme inequality isn't even accurate
11914
11915[14-May-19 09:05 AM] Clapham#0791
11916https://www.cgdev.org/blog/world-bank-progresses-poverty-lines
11917
11918[14-May-19 09:05 AM] Clapham#0791
11919```But the “dollar a day” standard never had, nor was ever meant to have, any rationale or credibility as a standard for who was “not poor.” If poverty is regarded as “an unacceptable deprivation in human well-being” then there were billions of people who were above the “dollar a day” poverty line but were poor by many legitimate definitions and standards of poverty. What is “unacceptable” deprivation is scaled by norms of what is possible and hence country poverty lines increase as average country income increases. This is also reflected in other approaches to poverty like multi-dimensional poverty and in participatory approaches to poverty, neither of which produce anything like “dollar a day” as the univocal or a consensus definition of poverty.```
11920
11921[14-May-19 09:06 AM] engelsgang#9451
11922How about the fact that 2.5 billion people don't have access to adequate sanitation?
11923
11924[14-May-19 09:07 AM] engelsgang#9451
11925I'm sure the 2/3 of them who make more than 1.90 a day are glad that theyre no longer in "extreme poverty" according to the world bank!
11926
11927[14-May-19 09:09 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11928My self image depends on the world bank
11929
11930[14-May-19 09:19 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
11931@covfefe2020 why doesn't clurkdurk have a first offense for spoiling infinity wars?
11932
11933[14-May-19 09:19 AM] CpnNevosity#2145
11934infinity wars
11935
11936[14-May-19 09:19 AM] CpnNevosity#2145
11937**INFINITY WARS**
11938
11939[14-May-19 09:20 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11940All he did was confirm the spoiler
11941
11942[14-May-19 09:20 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11943I believe
11944
11945[14-May-19 09:20 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11946and it was that or not punish the offender
11947
11948[14-May-19 09:21 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
11949Orby didn't spoil it.
11950
11951[14-May-19 09:21 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11952So he spoiled it out of the blue?
11953
11954[14-May-19 09:21 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
11955He said "He eats dust" then clurkdurk said He "dies"
11956
11957[14-May-19 09:22 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11958Eats the dust is a clear term for death
11959
11960[14-May-19 09:23 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
11961Who eats dust
11962
11963[14-May-19 09:23 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11964Orby is not going to get off on semantics
11965
11966[14-May-19 09:23 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11967@Leftcom Stalin spoiler warning go into another chat
11968
11969[14-May-19 09:23 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
11970
11971https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/577848538617348096/image0.png
11972
11973[14-May-19 09:23 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
11974I watched it
11975
11976[14-May-19 09:24 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
11977Endgame spoiler ||I watched it and almost cried when Ironman died||
11978
11979[14-May-19 09:24 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11980Ever heard the term bite the dust?
11981
11982[14-May-19 09:25 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
11983He didn't say bite the dust though
11984
11985[14-May-19 09:25 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11986Why would iron man be car racing someone
11987
11988[14-May-19 09:25 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11989Again
11990
11991[14-May-19 09:25 AM] covfefe2020#7724
11992I am not going to use the wording to excuse it
11993
11994[14-May-19 09:25 AM] CpnNevosity#2145
11995Nothing happens (1989)
11996https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/577848972329222213/cvq3gfmlv4y21.png
11997
11998[14-May-19 09:25 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
11999WOW
12000
12001[14-May-19 09:26 AM] covfefe2020#7724
12002And iron man didn't eat the dust of anyone
12003
12004[14-May-19 09:26 AM] covfefe2020#7724
12005So what else could orby men's
12006
12007[14-May-19 09:26 AM] covfefe2020#7724
12008*mean
12009
12010[14-May-19 09:26 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
12011Well up until I asked whether or not Orby was lying nobody knew if Or by was trolling or not.
12012
12013[14-May-19 09:26 AM] covfefe2020#7724
12014Yeah
12015
12016[14-May-19 09:27 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
12017The cluk confirmed the spoiler.
12018
12019[14-May-19 09:27 AM] CpnNevosity#2145
12020
12021https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/577849353172156431/qacuqgtmr2y21.png
12022
12023[14-May-19 09:27 AM] covfefe2020#7724
12024And that was a retarded thing to do on clurk's part
12025
12026[14-May-19 09:27 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12027Polen ist mein
12028
12029[14-May-19 09:27 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
12030A clear violation of the server rules.
12031
12032[14-May-19 09:28 AM] covfefe2020#7724
12033Ok I'll give him the offense
12034
12035[14-May-19 09:28 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
12036Nice
12037
12038[14-May-19 09:33 AM] covfefe2020#7724
12039And I should ban Engels for posting a gif of the ending for me
12040
12041[14-May-19 09:34 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
12042No she was already banned and unbanned
12043
12044[14-May-19 09:34 AM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
12045Double jeopardy
12046
12047[14-May-19 09:35 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12048Oh damn
12049
12050[14-May-19 09:35 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12051That's a good point
12052
12053[14-May-19 09:36 AM] qdzs1#6808
12054Ban everyone
12055
12056[14-May-19 09:36 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12057Absolute monarchy
12058
12059[14-May-19 09:40 AM] covfefe2020#7724
12060No one can cause problems for the server then
12061
12062[14-May-19 09:44 AM] vishnu_fishnoooooooib#5641
12063Exactly
12064
12065[14-May-19 09:45 AM] vishnu_fishnoooooooib#5641
12066Yoshi IQ
12067
12068[14-May-19 09:51 AM] covfefe2020#7724
12069Ethical socialist alert
12070
12071[14-May-19 04:43 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
12072@covfefe2020 biting the dust is dying eating the dust is a term for falling down or getting crushed in a race
12073
12074[14-May-19 04:45 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
12075Also I said eats dust because I literally didn’t know what happened lmfao
12076
12077[14-May-19 04:46 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12078You're living?
12079
12080[14-May-19 05:03 PM] covfefe2020#7724
12081What
12082
12083[14-May-19 05:06 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
12084I'm coked up and I convinced my mates our pub quiz name should be the 3 unique ego's  @新世紀Orby
12085
12086[14-May-19 05:06 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
12087
12088https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/577965062334054432/image0.jpg
12089
12090[14-May-19 05:07 PM] covfefe2020#7724
12091Shut up dead guy
12092
12093[14-May-19 05:18 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
12094What knocks together?
12095
12096[14-May-19 05:18 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12097Communism and Stalin
12098
12099[14-May-19 05:18 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12100
12101https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/577968004986437658/Stalin_Full_Image.jpg
12102
12103[14-May-19 05:20 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
12104Omg last question  name a country that has been separated
12105
12106[14-May-19 05:20 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12107America
12108
12109[14-May-19 05:20 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12110It hasn't been but it is going to be seperated
12111
12112[14-May-19 05:21 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
12113Lol I'll put that in parenthesis
12114
12115[14-May-19 05:22 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
12116Yugoslavia 😔
12117
12118[14-May-19 05:22 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
12119Rip Tito’s paradise
12120
12121[14-May-19 05:22 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
12122@Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism
12123
12124[14-May-19 05:23 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
12125https://youtu.be/hu_7OncrfIY
12126
12127[14-May-19 05:23 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
12128😰
12129
12130[14-May-19 05:28 PM] Tsar of monarcho-bolshevism#9647
12131Yup rip
12132
12133[14-May-19 05:48 PM] turnips#7959
12134If communism is so good why did the ussr fall
12135
12136[14-May-19 05:48 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12137Because of US Imperialism
12138
12139[14-May-19 05:48 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12140And Yeltzin
12141
12142[14-May-19 05:49 PM] turnips#7959
12143I don’t think that’s right
12144
12145[14-May-19 05:49 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12146Well then
12147
12148[14-May-19 05:49 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12149Free thoughts are forbidden and revisionism
12150
12151[14-May-19 05:49 PM] turnips#7959
12152We didn’t even fight a war
12153
12154[14-May-19 05:49 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12155Imperialism doesn't necessarily mean war or intervention
12156
12157[14-May-19 05:50 PM] turnips#7959
12158Take over?
12159
12160[14-May-19 05:50 PM] turnips#7959
12161Even though Americans weren’t allowed in
12162
12163[14-May-19 05:50 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12164Could be pressure and proxy wars
12165
12166[14-May-19 05:50 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
12167Sanctions too
12168
12169[14-May-19 05:50 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12170Yeltzin was a traitor and spy
12171
12172[14-May-19 05:51 PM] turnips#7959
12173Sanctions just stop trade
12174
12175[14-May-19 05:51 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
12176Yes
12177
12178[14-May-19 05:51 PM] turnips#7959
12179You need to be self sufficient
12180
12181[14-May-19 05:51 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
12182No country is self sufficient
12183
12184[14-May-19 05:51 PM] turnips#7959
12185USA was
12186
12187[14-May-19 05:51 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
12188America isn’t
12189
12190[14-May-19 05:51 PM] turnips#7959
12191Oil
12192
12193[14-May-19 05:51 PM] turnips#7959
12194Is just a benefit
12195
12196[14-May-19 05:51 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12197America isn't
12198
12199[14-May-19 05:52 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12200Not only oil
12201
12202[14-May-19 05:52 PM] turnips#7959
12203Farms
12204
12205[14-May-19 05:52 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
12206We rely on China, Mexico, South America, and Canada for like 70% of our products
12207
12208[14-May-19 05:52 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12209Cars from Germany, electronic from China
12210
12211[14-May-19 05:52 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12212Other stuff from China
12213
12214[14-May-19 05:52 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12215China China China
12216
12217[14-May-19 05:52 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
12218Almost all American cars are from Mexico
12219
12220[14-May-19 05:52 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12221More German stuff
12222
12223[14-May-19 05:52 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
12224All technology is from China
12225
12226[14-May-19 05:52 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
12227Clothes come from China
12228
12229[14-May-19 05:52 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
12230Or Asia in general
12231
12232[14-May-19 05:52 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12233Something something trade wars
12234
12235[14-May-19 05:53 PM] turnips#7959
12236Cool
12237
12238[14-May-19 05:53 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
12239Most of our fruits are imported from South America
12240
12241[14-May-19 05:53 PM] turnips#7959
12242So the Soviets fblame the us
12243
12244[14-May-19 05:53 PM] turnips#7959
12245Do I hear propoganda
12246
12247[14-May-19 05:53 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
12248America instigated sanctions that harmed the soviet economy
12249
12250[14-May-19 05:54 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12251Not to forget the proxy wars
12252
12253[14-May-19 05:54 PM] turnips#7959
12254Well they fell and didn’t the Soviets have there own sanctions
12255
12256[14-May-19 05:54 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
12257They had tight control over exports
12258
12259[14-May-19 05:54 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
12260But no real blocks of trade
12261
12262[14-May-19 05:54 PM] turnips#7959
12263USA did
12264
12265[14-May-19 05:54 PM] turnips#7959
12266?
12267
12268[14-May-19 05:55 PM] turnips#7959
12269Or Soviets
12270
12271[14-May-19 05:55 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
12272USA had full blocks of trade to the Soviet Union
12273
12274[14-May-19 05:55 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
12275Soviets just controlled their trades
12276
12277[14-May-19 05:55 PM] turnips#7959
12278So they got into a fight and didn’t take out our trade
12279
12280[14-May-19 05:56 PM] turnips#7959
12281?
12282
12283[14-May-19 05:56 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
12284America wouldn’t trade to the Soviets
12285
12286[14-May-19 05:56 PM] turnips#7959
12287So we ruled there economy
12288
12289[14-May-19 05:57 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
12290Kinda
12291
12292[14-May-19 05:57 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12293US is trying the same with China tho
12294
12295[14-May-19 05:57 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12296This time China has more trade power and state bounds
12297
12298[14-May-19 05:58 PM] turnips#7959
12299Ok
12300
12301[14-May-19 05:58 PM] turnips#7959
12302But China is morally incorrect
12303
12304[14-May-19 05:58 PM] covfefe2020#7724
12305USSR was a world power
12306
12307[14-May-19 05:59 PM] covfefe2020#7724
12308You cannot blame sanctions for its death
12309
12310[14-May-19 05:59 PM] turnips#7959
12311True
12312
12313[14-May-19 05:59 PM] covfefe2020#7724
12314Wouldn’t that hurt the US as much as it hurt the USSR?
12315
12316[14-May-19 05:59 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12317Not actually
12318
12319[14-May-19 05:59 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12320The US did not import much from the SU
12321
12322[14-May-19 05:59 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
12323You cannot blame food and supplies being unable to reach the ussr for its economic collapse?
12324
12325[14-May-19 06:00 PM] covfefe2020#7724
12326?
12327
12328[14-May-19 06:00 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
12329Wtf
12330
12331[14-May-19 06:00 PM] covfefe2020#7724
12332The Ussr had enough countries and supplies to exist without the us
12333
12334[14-May-19 06:00 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
12335
12336https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/577978541233405979/image0.png
12337
12338[14-May-19 06:00 PM] turnips#7959
12339?
12340
12341[14-May-19 06:01 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
12342They had small countries on Eastern Europe that also relied on trade
12343
12344[14-May-19 06:01 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12345The problem was that the Polish and hungerians hated the Soviets
12346
12347[14-May-19 06:01 PM] turnips#7959
12348So you admit the Soviets took over country’s
12349
12350[14-May-19 06:01 PM] covfefe2020#7724
12351I wonder why
12352
12353[14-May-19 06:02 PM] covfefe2020#7724
12354Taking over countries is good because it spreads communism
12355
12356[14-May-19 06:02 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12357Took over is the wrong term
12358
12359[14-May-19 06:02 PM] covfefe2020#7724
12360No different than an uprising by the people
12361
12362[14-May-19 06:02 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12363They were Soviet claim in WW2
12364
12365[14-May-19 06:02 PM] covfefe2020#7724
12366Cool
12367
12368[14-May-19 06:02 PM] covfefe2020#7724
12369Still got invaded
12370
12371[14-May-19 06:02 PM] turnips#7959
12372Ok and what about Korea
12373
12374[14-May-19 06:02 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12375Also elections were held
12376
12377[14-May-19 06:02 PM] turnips#7959
12378Korea is shit now
12379
12380[14-May-19 06:02 PM] covfefe2020#7724
12381Both of them
12382
12383[14-May-19 06:02 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12384Thanks to America dividing it
12385
12386[14-May-19 06:03 PM] covfefe2020#7724
12387Thanks to Kim jong ils failure to unite the koreas we have kpop
12388
12389[14-May-19 06:03 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12390The SU invaded Manchuria not the US, so basically the Korean peninsular is Soviet claim too
12391
12392[14-May-19 06:03 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12393That's true @covfefe2020
12394
12395[14-May-19 06:04 PM] covfefe2020#7724
12396Invading somewhere doesn’t give you claim to it
12397
12398[14-May-19 06:04 PM] turnips#7959
12399Rocket man is evil
12400
12401[14-May-19 06:04 PM] turnips#7959
12402And a dictator
12403
12404[14-May-19 06:04 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12405It was confirmed in the conferences
12406
12407[14-May-19 06:04 PM] covfefe2020#7724
12408Nobody is denying that
12409
12410[14-May-19 06:04 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12411So
12412
12413[14-May-19 06:04 PM] covfefe2020#7724
12414Literally no one
12415
12416[14-May-19 06:05 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
12417South Korea had a military dictatorship that slaughtered tons of people
12418
12419[14-May-19 06:05 PM] covfefe2020#7724
12420It did
12421
12422[14-May-19 06:05 PM] covfefe2020#7724
12423And it was bad
12424
12425[14-May-19 06:05 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12426The allies gave the Soviet Union the claims on the countries
12427
12428[14-May-19 06:05 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12429And now
12430
12431[14-May-19 06:05 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
12432Then they developed neoliberalism
12433
12434[14-May-19 06:05 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
12435And it’s worse
12436
12437[14-May-19 06:05 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12438:mao:
12439
12440[14-May-19 06:05 PM] covfefe2020#7724
12441And the allies were wrong to do that
12442
12443[14-May-19 06:05 PM] turnips#7959
12444Communist Korea is run by rocket man
12445
12446[14-May-19 06:05 PM] turnips#7959
12447Lag
12448
12449[14-May-19 06:05 PM] covfefe2020#7724
12450Nobody is denying that
12451
12452[14-May-19 06:05 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
12453:honk:
12454
12455[14-May-19 06:05 PM] covfefe2020#7724
12456Again
12457
12458[14-May-19 06:06 PM] covfefe2020#7724
12459
12460https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534219133999644683/577979985998905344/image0.png
12461
12462[14-May-19 06:06 PM] turnips#7959
12463?
12464
12465[14-May-19 06:06 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12466Anyway
12467
12468[14-May-19 06:06 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12469I have a meeting
12470
12471[14-May-19 06:06 PM] covfefe2020#7724
12472See ya
12473
12474[14-May-19 06:06 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12475I'm back in maybe 8 hours
12476
12477[14-May-19 06:06 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12478Or 9
12479
12480[14-May-19 06:06 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12481Depends
12482
12483[14-May-19 06:06 PM] turnips#7959
12484Cool
12485
12486[14-May-19 06:07 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
12487Obummer
12488
12489[14-May-19 06:07 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
12490hilarious
12491
12492[14-May-19 06:07 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12493Heilarious
12494
12495[14-May-19 06:07 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12496Fits more here
12497
12498[14-May-19 06:07 PM] turnips#7959
12499Is it endgame extend addition
12500
12501[14-May-19 06:07 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
12502oh we making nazi jokes now
12503
12504[14-May-19 06:07 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
12505epic
12506
12507[14-May-19 06:07 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12508I'm allowed to
12509
12510[14-May-19 06:07 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12511I live in Naziland
12512
12513[14-May-19 06:07 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
12514true
12515
12516[14-May-19 06:08 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
12517yo my family is like, mostly german ancestry, can i make nazi jokes now
12518
12519[14-May-19 06:08 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12520Really?
12521
12522[14-May-19 06:08 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
12523yes
12524
12525[14-May-19 06:08 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12526Damn Kraut
12527
12528[14-May-19 06:08 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12529No just joking, in which generation?
12530
12531[14-May-19 06:09 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
12532like i was born in the UK but most family is from germany and ireland
12533
12534[14-May-19 06:09 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
125353 generations back xd
12536
12537[14-May-19 06:09 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12538I hope they aren't from the Kaiserreich
12539
12540[14-May-19 06:09 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12541Oh damn they are
12542
12543[14-May-19 06:09 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12544My family is like 10000000 generations iranian
12545
12546[14-May-19 06:10 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
12547i should go back in time and tell my great granddad to fuck off
12548
12549[14-May-19 06:10 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12550If he's Friedrich Ebert, say him: If you ally with Groener, I'll spit on your grave and set your house on fire
12551
12552[14-May-19 06:11 PM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12553Friedrich Ebert was actually born in the same city where I was born
12554
12555[14-May-19 06:15 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
12556I’m Austrian
12557
12558[14-May-19 06:15 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
12559I can make the most nazi jokes
12560
12561[14-May-19 06:21 PM] Admiruwu_Mwunsun#0367
12562i feel like this is going in a bad direction
12563
12564[15-May-19 07:14 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
12565lmfao socialists are incredible: http://time.com/5589439/china-wikipedia-online-censorship/
12566
12567[15-May-19 07:15 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
12568It’s a joke at this point.
12569
12570[15-May-19 07:17 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
12571can't have people learning about this shitshow of an ideology from places other than counter punch lol
12572
12573[15-May-19 07:17 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12574Not a great loss tho
12575
12576[15-May-19 07:18 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12577Everyone can write their shit in Wikipedia
12578
12579[15-May-19 07:20 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
12580The mountain of denial it takes to be a socialist. It's okay, China will shake off the last vestiges of its socialist chains in due time. People don't like being told what they are allowed to know about. The grip of authoritarians always fails eventually.
12581
12582[15-May-19 07:21 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12583?
12584
12585[15-May-19 07:21 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12586US banning communist newspapers is basically the same thing
12587
12588[15-May-19 07:22 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12589What's about that?
12590
12591[15-May-19 07:23 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12592And the McCarthy-Trials banning poems and literature from communist authors like Bertolt Brecht
12593
12594[15-May-19 07:37 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
12595Right, you have to make a comparison to the peak of Cold War fervor when the U.S. was overreaching in its fight against communism (at least they didn't kill a million political undesirables like Stalin). Now we are here in 2019 and China is banning all of Wikipedia and you say they are the same. Jesus.
12596
12597[15-May-19 07:39 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
12598I mean you are bringing up communist newspapers from the 40s and them getting prosecuted. And you will ignore that any capitalist in the Soviet Union running a newspaper advocating for a capitalist revolution would have been straight up murdered. It is an absolutely absurd comparison.
12599
12600But this is the kind of denial it takes to be a socialist.
12601
12602[15-May-19 08:03 AM] engelsgang#9451
12603Do you seriously think that China is socialist?
12604
12605[15-May-19 08:05 AM] engelsgang#9451
12606```(at least they didn't kill a million political undesirables like Stalin).``` ok google what was the vietnam war
12607
12608[15-May-19 08:06 AM] engelsgang#9451
12609@JuicyJuuce why are you so obsessed with this concept of "socialists" as a monolith?
12610
12611[15-May-19 08:07 AM] engelsgang#9451
12612Tbh it seems like you're just calling china socialist in order to claim that it's "not real capitalism" and deflect away from the failures of your ideology
12613
12614[15-May-19 08:07 AM] Clapham#0791
12615the UK is banning porn soon, but JJ doesn't care about stuff that isn't the lowest hanging fruit which he can use spin as an attack against 'socuialists'
12616
12617[15-May-19 08:08 AM] Clapham#0791
12618keep it up though, I audibly snort with each attempt
12619
12620[15-May-19 08:08 AM] engelsgang#9451
12621Ok but the UK banning porn is good and epic
12622
12623[15-May-19 08:08 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12624The failures of capitalism as we see them in Latin America, Africa and Asia
12625
12626[15-May-19 08:08 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12627Brutal reactionary dictators, starvation, underdevelopment and civil wars caused by imperialism
12628
12629[15-May-19 08:09 AM] Clapham#0791
12630people will just use VPNs, just like people already do in China
12631
12632[15-May-19 08:13 AM] engelsgang#9451
12633off the top of my head, a list of times in which the US murdered or assisted in the murder of "political undesirables": supporting pinochet, installing decades of imperialist rule of guatemala and honduras (leading to the coining of the phrase "banana republic"), supporting the Shah, the assassination of black liberation leaders, funding contras in nicaragua, the use of agent orange and napalm in Vietnam (as well as the general brutality against the population as demonstrated by the My Lai massacre), and supporting Syngman Rhee, a semi-fascist ruler of south korea who killed hundreds of thousands of people for political opposition
12634
12635[15-May-19 08:15 AM] Clapham#0791
12636china ban wikipedia tho
12637
12638[15-May-19 08:26 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
12639Oh geez lol, yea now you want to broaden this to every proxy war ever and ignore all the ones killed by Soviet proxies. 
12640
12641Here we are looking at a country suppressing undesirable political thought among their own people. Comparing like a few dozen people getting jailed for a few years in the United States with Stalin's Great Terror is beyond absurd.
12642
12643And here in 2019 the most powerful communist party in the world has just blocked its citizens from looking at all of Wikipedia.
12644
12645The sympathy you guys have for authoritarian oppression is astounding. It's a psychological problem.
12646
12647[15-May-19 08:27 AM] engelsgang#9451
12648Well I wasn't talking about the USSR, I was talking about the US. And its equally absurd to claim that the great purge was "Stalin killing millions of political undesirables".
12649
12650[15-May-19 08:27 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
12651One million, stop lying.
12652
12653[15-May-19 08:28 AM] engelsgang#9451
12654It was not just Stalin doing this, it was a messy and poorly conducted process carried out by many people in the Soviet Government. Read Getty.
12655
12656[15-May-19 08:28 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
12657Stalin was leading it and he had the buy-in of the Communist Party? Wow even worse.
12658
12659[15-May-19 08:28 AM] engelsgang#9451
12660And I'm not talking about "a few people getting jailed", the US literally assassinated black liberation leaders.
12661
12662[15-May-19 08:28 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
12663Like not just one guy going off the rails but the country's party backing him up.
12664
12665[15-May-19 08:29 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
12666And you are comparing that to a million political executions lol
12667
12668[15-May-19 08:29 AM] CpnNevosity#2145
12669Honestly, I'd rather be assassinated by the FBI than arrested by the NKVD
12670
12671[15-May-19 08:29 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
12672It is absolutely fascinating hearing you guys do your mental gymnastics
12673
12674[15-May-19 08:29 AM] engelsgang#9451
12675The whole of the communist party was not "on Stalin's side" LMFAO
12676
12677[15-May-19 08:29 AM] engelsgang#9451
12678And again, why do you think China is socialist?
12679
12680[15-May-19 08:29 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
12681Oh they are Not True Socialistâ„¢
12682
12683[15-May-19 08:30 AM] engelsgang#9451
12684"not true capitalism"
12685
12686[15-May-19 08:30 AM] engelsgang#9451
12687"one million, stop lying" Stalin only personally OKed 40,000 executions during that period (I'm not saying that's good, before you strawman me)
12688
12689[15-May-19 08:30 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
12690lololol
12691
12692[15-May-19 08:30 AM] engelsgang#9451
12693But it's a lot more complicated than "Stalin killed millions"
12694
12695[15-May-19 08:30 AM] engelsgang#9451
12696Lololol
12697
12698[15-May-19 08:31 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
1269940,000 no biggie, America assassinated a couple folks
12700
12701[15-May-19 08:31 AM] engelsgang#9451
12702I literally just said
12703
12704[15-May-19 08:31 AM] engelsgang#9451
12705I'm not saying that's good
12706
12707[15-May-19 08:31 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
12708hahahaha
12709
12710[15-May-19 08:31 AM] CpnNevosity#2145
12711Fourty thousand is still a lot of people
12712
12713[15-May-19 08:31 AM] engelsgang#9451
12714Are you fucking illiterate
12715
12716[15-May-19 08:31 AM] engelsgang#9451
12717I know
12718
12719[15-May-19 08:31 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
12720this is amazing
12721
12722[15-May-19 08:31 AM] engelsgang#9451
12723I'm aware
12724
12725[15-May-19 08:31 AM] engelsgang#9451
12726But I'm criticizing you for using inaccurate and inflated statistics
12727
12728[15-May-19 08:31 AM] CpnNevosity#2145
12729Can you find any evidence that the US assassinated anywhere near that number?
12730
12731[15-May-19 08:32 AM] engelsgang#9451
12732I didn't say they did
12733
12734[15-May-19 08:32 AM] CpnNevosity#2145
12735And the US had about the same
12736
12737[15-May-19 08:32 AM] engelsgang#9451
12738Imagine how much you guys would be rattling on about it if the USSR had anything resembling Jim Crow.
12739
12740[15-May-19 08:33 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
12741So @Leftcom Stalin's justification for China banning Wikipedia is the U.S. jailed a few dozen communists in the 1940s.
12742
12743And here we are talking about how many zeros are Stalin's fault in comparison to a couple possible American assassinations.
12744
12745[15-May-19 08:33 AM] engelsgang#9451
12746But it wasn't just a couple of assassinations
12747
12748[15-May-19 08:33 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12749Justification?
12750
12751[15-May-19 08:33 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
12752Like, why do you guys lie to yourselves?
12753
12754[15-May-19 08:33 AM] CpnNevosity#2145
12755If the US was as bad to its citizens and political dissidents as the USSR, you would expect 40,000 executions/assassinations
12756
12757[15-May-19 08:33 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12758Where do I speak from justification?
12759
12760[15-May-19 08:33 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
12761Doesn't that say something?
12762
12763[15-May-19 08:33 AM] engelsgang#9451
12764I just gave you a whole laundry list of US-backed atrocities
12765
12766[15-May-19 08:33 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
12767This isn't healthy.
12768
12769[15-May-19 08:33 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
12770Right, and you ignored the laundry list on the other side.
12771
12772[15-May-19 08:34 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12773Exploiting the workers and people in other countries is healthy tho?
12774
12775[15-May-19 08:34 AM] engelsgang#9451
12776You didn't give a laundry list
12777
12778[15-May-19 08:34 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12779Interesting
12780
12781[15-May-19 08:34 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
12782Man, the reaches you will make to justify China doing this.
12783
12784[15-May-19 08:34 AM] engelsgang#9451
12785@CpnNevosity the number of executions isn't all we need to look at though.
12786
12787[15-May-19 08:34 AM] engelsgang#9451
12788Im not "justifying china doing this", I literally don't care about it
12789
12790[15-May-19 08:34 AM] engelsgang#9451
12791You're projecting.
12792
12793[15-May-19 08:34 AM] engelsgang#9451
12794Doesn't that say something?
12795
12796[15-May-19 08:35 AM] engelsgang#9451
12797Why are you lying to yourself?  @JuicyJuuce
12798
12799[15-May-19 08:35 AM] CpnNevosity#2145
12800So you don't care about the awful things done by China?
12801
12802[15-May-19 08:35 AM] engelsgang#9451
12803I don't care about them banning wikipedia
12804
12805[15-May-19 08:35 AM] Clapham#0791
12806who defending china's action?
12807
12808[15-May-19 08:35 AM] Clapham#0791
12809JJ picking strawmen out of thin air
12810
12811[15-May-19 08:35 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
12812I mean, I understand engels is gonna spin and spin, but I wonder if all communists do this in their head. Like do you go through all these gymnastics or do you just think all the authoritarian murder and oppression is okay?
12813
12814[15-May-19 08:36 AM] Clapham#0791
12815we can't help but pounce upon it because of your 'socialist' shtick
12816
12817[15-May-19 08:36 AM] Clapham#0791
12818again, strawman
12819
12820[15-May-19 08:36 AM] engelsgang#9451
12821I mean, I understand JJ is gonna spin and spin, but I wonder if all capitalosts do this in their head. Like do you go through all these gymnastics or do you just think all the authoritarian murder and oppression is okay?
12822
12823[15-May-19 08:36 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
12824@Clapham Read up to the first post in this channel today for the justifying.
12825
12826[15-May-19 08:36 AM] engelsgang#9451
12827Because apparently you don't care about the US's violent suppression of civil rights leaders.
12828
12829[15-May-19 08:36 AM] Clapham#0791
12830I did read it
12831
12832[15-May-19 08:36 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12833I haven't defended it I said it's not a great loss
12834
12835[15-May-19 08:36 AM] Clapham#0791
12836why do I have to defend everything china does rofl
12837
12838[15-May-19 08:37 AM] CpnNevosity#2145
12839You don't
12840
12841[15-May-19 08:37 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12842:4shrug:
12843
12844[15-May-19 08:37 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
12845@Leftcom Stalin You said it was the same as the U.S. jailing a few communists calling for revolution in the 1940s.
12846
12847[15-May-19 08:37 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12848Quote?
12849
12850[15-May-19 08:37 AM] engelsgang#9451
12851Why does them calling for revolution matter?
12852
12853[15-May-19 08:37 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12854I said "How about" giving you a neutral comparison and not an opinion
12855
12856[15-May-19 08:37 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
12857"US banning communist newspapers is basically the same thing. What's about that?"
12858
12859[15-May-19 08:37 AM] engelsgang#9451
12860Does the same not apply to many people in the USSR who got arrested?
12861
12862[15-May-19 08:38 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12863?
12864
12865[15-May-19 08:38 AM] engelsgang#9451
12866Or are they just "political undesirables" when the USSR does it
12867
12868[15-May-19 08:38 AM] engelsgang#9451
12869Interesting mental gymnastics
12870
12871[15-May-19 08:38 AM] engelsgang#9451
12872The psychology of liberals is fascinating.
12873
12874[15-May-19 08:38 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
12875It is just striking to me that you guys are okay with all this heavy handed oppression. I honestly think it is a psychological thing. Like abused people being okay with abuse.
12876
12877[15-May-19 08:39 AM] engelsgang#9451
12878If you don't criticize China you're "apologizing for authoritarianism" and if you do youre doing a no true scotsman @Clapham
12879
12880[15-May-19 08:39 AM] Clapham#0791
12881it is just striking to me that JJ is okay with all this heavy handed oppression.  I honestly think that it is a psychological thing.  Like abused people being okay with abuse.
12882
12883[15-May-19 08:39 AM] engelsgang#9451
12884Why should I care about how available wikipedia is in china
12885
12886[15-May-19 08:39 AM] Clapham#0791
12887JJ, are you a politician in Texas?
12888
12889[15-May-19 08:39 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
12890I'm just ever fascinated by socialists embrace of authoritarian abuse.
12891
12892[15-May-19 08:40 AM] Clapham#0791
12893because holy shit you can trot out empty rhetoric like no tomorrow
12894
12895[15-May-19 08:40 AM] Clapham#0791
12896it's actuall amazing
12897
12898[15-May-19 08:40 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
12899Like nothing phases you guys
12900
12901[15-May-19 08:40 AM] engelsgang#9451
12902I'm just ever fascinated by liberals embrace of authoritarian abuse.
12903
12904[15-May-19 08:40 AM] engelsgang#9451
12905Like nothing phases you guys
12906
12907[15-May-19 08:40 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
12908No amount of death and stifling of thought is too much.
12909
12910[15-May-19 08:40 AM] Clapham#0791
12911yawn
12912
12913[15-May-19 08:40 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
12914*If only **we** get in power this time, we can force everyone to create the utopia of our dreams*
12915
12916[15-May-19 08:41 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
12917Like over and over and over, its the same story.
12918
12919[15-May-19 08:41 AM] engelsgang#9451
12920No amount of spilled Black, Indigenous South American, Asian, and African blood is too much.
12921
12922[15-May-19 08:41 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12923This was the same the liberals said when they seized power
12924
12925[15-May-19 08:41 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12926And now look at Africa and Latin America
12927
12928[15-May-19 08:41 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
12929@Leftcom Stalin yes, let's look at africa and latin America https://gfycat.com/adventurousdisastrousdog
12930
12931[15-May-19 08:41 AM] engelsgang#9451
12932*If only **we get** in power this time, we can force democracy on the third world*
12933
12934[15-May-19 08:42 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
12935the socialist narrative is false. free market capitalism has improved the world dramatically
12936
12937[15-May-19 08:42 AM] Clapham#0791
12938no-one is defending the banning of wikipedia, you disingenuous fuckwit
12939
12940[15-May-19 08:42 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
12941false
12942
12943[15-May-19 08:42 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12944https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_Civil_War
12945
12946[15-May-19 08:42 AM] engelsgang#9451
12947"more people are making more than $1.90 a day therefore they're not exploited"
12948
12949[15-May-19 08:42 AM] Clapham#0791
12950incoming "OOO namecalling"
12951
12952[15-May-19 08:42 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12953Look I found some imperialism here
12954
12955[15-May-19 08:42 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12956Hmmm france and Britain aren't involved in this
12957
12958[15-May-19 08:42 AM] engelsgang#9451
12959@Leftcom Stalinok but what  about the USSR XD
12960
12961[15-May-19 08:42 AM] Clapham#0791
12962that extreme poverty graph is the same bs thing you keep pulling up
12963
12964[15-May-19 08:42 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12965And America isn't selling guns
12966
12967[15-May-19 08:43 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
12968@engelsgang There are no people in Russia, Stalin killed them all with is bare hands
12969
12970[15-May-19 08:43 AM] Clapham#0791
12971about $1 a day being the threshold extreme poverty
12972
12973[15-May-19 08:43 AM] Clapham#0791
12974it's just bs
12975
12976[15-May-19 08:43 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
12977I mean, the world is getting better and better under the western world order, and you guys have to create this false narrative about the world that it is getting worse.
12978
12979The evidence is against you, the data is against you. But it doesn't matter.
12980
12981[15-May-19 08:43 AM] engelsgang#9451
12982JJ, we've already gone over how terrible the 1.90 a day "extreme poverty" statistic is nonsense
12983
12984[15-May-19 08:43 AM] Clapham#0791
12985empty
12986
12987[15-May-19 08:43 AM] Clapham#0791
12988rhetoric
12989
12990[15-May-19 08:43 AM] CpnNevosity#2145
12991is liechtenstein imperialist
12992
12993[15-May-19 08:43 AM] Clapham#0791
12994empty
12995
12996[15-May-19 08:43 AM] Clapham#0791
12997rhetoric
12998
12999[15-May-19 08:43 AM] Clapham#0791
13000e
13001
13002[15-May-19 08:43 AM] Clapham#0791
13003m
13004
13005[15-May-19 08:43 AM] Clapham#0791
13006p
13007
13008[15-May-19 08:43 AM] Clapham#0791
13009t
13010
13011[15-May-19 08:43 AM] Clapham#0791
13012y
13013
13014[15-May-19 08:43 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
13015Keep saying that until we hit the next economic crisis
13016
13017[15-May-19 08:43 AM] Clapham#0791
13018r
13019
13020[15-May-19 08:43 AM] Clapham#0791
13021h
13022
13023[15-May-19 08:43 AM] Clapham#0791
13024e
13025
13026[15-May-19 08:43 AM] Clapham#0791
13027t
13028
13029[15-May-19 08:43 AM] Clapham#0791
13030o
13031
13032[15-May-19 08:43 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
13033Stop spamming @Clapham
13034
13035[15-May-19 08:43 AM] Clapham#0791
13036r
13037
13038[15-May-19 08:44 AM] Clapham#0791
13039i
13040
13041[15-May-19 08:44 AM] Clapham#0791
13042c
13043
13044[15-May-19 08:44 AM] Clapham#0791
13045oh and btw the world is dying so w/e
13046
13047[15-May-19 08:44 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
13048Wasn't me
13049
13050[15-May-19 08:44 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
13051Staff log
13052
13053[15-May-19 08:44 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
13054Not here
13055
13056[15-May-19 08:45 AM] engelsgang#9451
13057The "evidence" shows that the "western order" is about to eliminate the third world through a climate catastrophe but it's ok because more people make 1.90 a day now
13058
13059[15-May-19 08:45 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
13060lol
13061
13062[15-May-19 08:45 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
13063"eliminate" like you just say anything
13064
13065[15-May-19 08:46 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
13066?
13067
13068[15-May-19 08:46 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
13069truth has no bearing
13070
13071[15-May-19 08:46 AM] engelsgang#9451
13072No response lmfao
13073
13074[15-May-19 08:46 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
13075Interesting rhetoric
13076
13077[15-May-19 08:46 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
13078Cicero would be proud
13079
13080[15-May-19 08:46 AM] engelsgang#9451
13081I mean it's true, billions of deaths are gonna be inevitable if humanity continues on its present course
13082
13083[15-May-19 08:47 AM] engelsgang#9451
13084remember how the other day you brought up the extreme poverty thing and I pointed out how 2.5 billion people still lack adequate sanitation and most of those wouldn't be considered to be living in "extreme poverty"? Remember how you had no response?
13085
13086[15-May-19 08:48 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
13087lol remember how billions of people were actually worse off than that and you had no response?
13088
13089[15-May-19 08:48 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
13090like data just bounces off of you
13091
13092[15-May-19 08:48 AM] engelsgang#9451
13093"worse off" in terms of raw income, maybe.
13094
13095[15-May-19 08:48 AM] engelsgang#9451
13096But that's the only "data" you have.
13097
13098[15-May-19 08:48 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
13099Could you actually answer to the argument
13100
13101[15-May-19 08:48 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
13102Please
13103
13104[15-May-19 08:48 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
13105I did! **it used to be worse**
13106
13107[15-May-19 08:49 AM] engelsgang#9451
13108**prove it**
13109
13110[15-May-19 08:49 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
13111**The hell**
13112
13113[15-May-19 08:49 AM] engelsgang#9451
13114You just assert that
13115
13116[15-May-19 08:49 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
13117The data shows it
13118
13119[15-May-19 08:49 AM] engelsgang#9451
13120What "data"? You've only showed raw income, which doesn't actually indicate how people live
13121
13122[15-May-19 08:49 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
13123Income is correlated (tho not 100% perfectly) with an increase in standard of living
13124
13125[15-May-19 08:50 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
13126Brutto?
13127
13128[15-May-19 08:50 AM] engelsgang#9451
13129That doesn't mean that living standards actually increased
13130
13131[15-May-19 08:50 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
13132Or Netto?
13133
13134[15-May-19 08:50 AM] engelsgang#9451
13135As urbanization happens and a community moves from a pre-capitalist economy to a capitalist one, cost of living will increase, no?
13136
13137[15-May-19 08:51 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
13138The ideology that you guys embrace is dependant at ignoring massive amounts of data and history and desperately trying to convince the world that things have gotten worse and worse.
13139
13140Like I get that you're not gonna admit that you are wrong to me here, but I suggest you spend some time thinking about if you are really going to convince the world of this and create a revolution. If you have to spin and deflect the data that doesn't go your way, do you think that is going to be convincing to the world?
13141
13142[15-May-19 08:52 AM] JuicyJuuce#3493
13143Food for thought.
13144
13145[15-May-19 08:52 AM] engelsgang#9451
13146Ok so you don't have any actual evidence to support your position
13147
13148[15-May-19 08:52 AM] engelsgang#9451
13149All you have is rhetoric and sophistry
13150
13151[15-May-19 08:55 AM] engelsgang#9451
13152Interesting that out of all of the "massive amounts of data" that I am apparently "dependant on ignoring", the only ones that you're able to provide are Robert Conquest death tolls and World Bank 1.90-a-day "extreme poverty" levels.
13153
13154[15-May-19 08:56 AM] CpnNevosity#2145
13155I'll concede, $1.91 a day is still poverty
13156
13157[15-May-19 08:56 AM] CpnNevosity#2145
13158A line cannot be drawn like that
13159
13160[15-May-19 08:58 AM] engelsgang#9451
13161It's not just that, it's also that making less than that in a pre-capitalist economy may provide a higher standard of living than making that much in a capitalist economy because of the poor conditions in cities.
13162
13163[15-May-19 09:02 AM] turnips#7959
13164Cpn I noticed that you are not a Democrat
13165
13166[15-May-19 09:02 AM] CpnNevosity#2145
13167Any global poverty line must be based on whether you have certain things, like clean water, sanitation, and food
13168
13169[15-May-19 09:02 AM] CpnNevosity#2145
13170they took it away
13171
13172[15-May-19 09:02 AM] turnips#7959
13173Sad
13174
13175[15-May-19 09:03 AM] turnips#7959
13176@covfefe2020  can you give him his role back
13177
13178[15-May-19 09:03 AM] covfefe2020#7724
13179What
13180
13181[15-May-19 09:03 AM] engelsgang#9451
13182Mhm, and roughly a third of the world doesn't have adequate sanitation.
13183
13184[15-May-19 09:04 AM] CpnNevosity#2145
13185I'd prefer independent role, if you can fix it so I can type
13186
13187[15-May-19 09:04 AM] covfefe2020#7724
13188Type where
13189
13190[15-May-19 09:04 AM] turnips#7959
13191Anywhere
13192
13193[15-May-19 09:05 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
13194I'm maybe able to fix it
13195
13196[15-May-19 09:05 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
13197With some time @CpnNevosity
13198
13199[15-May-19 09:19 AM] Clapham#0791
13200I posted it earlier, by JJ doesn't actual care about data and facts.  He isn't in the least bit skeptical about this position he trumpets over and over because it fit his narrow worldview. https://www.cgdev.org/blog/world-bank-progresses-poverty-lines
13201https://qz.com/africa/1428639/world-banks-measure-of-poverty-is-flawed/
13202https://www.jasonhickel.org/blog/2019/2/3/pinker-and-global-poverty
13203https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/08/exposing-great-poverty-reductio-201481211590729809.html
13204
13205[15-May-19 09:21 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
13206I think I mostly fixed the independent role
13207
13208[15-May-19 09:21 AM] covfefe2020#7724
13209Great
13210
13211[15-May-19 09:21 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
13212I need CPN as my test person
13213
13214[15-May-19 09:21 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
13215**CPN** @CpnNevosity
13216
13217[15-May-19 09:22 AM] Clapham#0791
13218Moreover, you attribute this to 'free market capitalism', as opposed to industrialisation and government-driven programmes?
13219
13220[15-May-19 09:23 AM] CpnNevosity#2145
13221k test it
13222
13223[15-May-19 09:23 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
13224Okay
13225
13226[15-May-19 09:23 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
13227Can u write
13228
13229[15-May-19 09:24 AM] CpnNevosity#2145
13230yes
13231
13232[15-May-19 09:25 AM] CpnNevosity#2145
13233The communists in this argument are forgetting the best argument they have here
13234
13235[15-May-19 09:25 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
13236Yes finally
13237
13238[15-May-19 09:25 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
13239It wörks
13240
13241[15-May-19 09:25 AM] CpnNevosity#2145
13242Subsistence farmers, who didn't make much money because they didn't participate in markets, got along fine
13243
13244[15-May-19 09:25 AM] Clapham#0791
13245https://ourworldindata.org/extreme-poverty#what-do-poor-people-think-about-poverty
13246
13247[15-May-19 09:25 AM] CpnNevosity#2145
13248Until capitalism fucked it up
13249
13250[15-May-19 09:25 AM] CpnNevosity#2145
13251That's the argument you SHOULD be making
13252
13253[15-May-19 09:26 AM] Clapham#0791
13254if you include China, global poverty has decreased, by this very metric, from 42 to 10
13255
13256[15-May-19 09:26 AM] Clapham#0791
13257if you don't include china it's 29 to 12%
13258
13259[15-May-19 09:27 AM] Clapham#0791
13260so you can't have your cake and eat it too; "China bad" or "Chain good" ??
13261
13262[15-May-19 09:29 AM] CpnNevosity#2145
13263Well, I could also argue that China has become more capitalist lately at the same time that they have decreased poverty
13264
13265[15-May-19 09:31 AM] Clapham#0791
13266Also, JJ how dare you say that "we just can't face the facts".  The primary concern of socialists is egalitarianism and people living better lives., so of course we're happy if this is the case.  It's also true that living standards have increased - but you neglect to take into account inequality worldwide.  The majority of the wealth produced continues to go to the small % at the top.  That is undeniable.  It is possible for living standards to increase, whilst disproportionately across the globe.  Moreover in first world countries, for many people, living standards are declining!
13267
13268[15-May-19 09:31 AM] CpnNevosity#2145
13269Dengs reforms started in 1978
13270
13271[15-May-19 09:31 AM] CpnNevosity#2145
13272And from 1981 to 2012, Chinas poverty rate went from 88% to 5%
13273
13274[15-May-19 09:32 AM] CpnNevosity#2145
13275You could argue this was only possible thanks to Mao and his work, because Mao got them to where they were
13276
13277[15-May-19 09:32 AM] CpnNevosity#2145
13278But the argument is flawed, because you can say that Mao was only able to increase life expectancy because the previous system got them to where they were
13279
13280[15-May-19 09:33 AM] CpnNevosity#2145
13281You could say that about a lot of countries
13282
13283[15-May-19 09:34 AM] Clapham#0791
13284that's a whole other debate.  It's just, JJ is happy to criticise China when it comes to banning wikipedia and will criticise (us) of 'supporting authoritarian regimes', even though we don't necessarily support that policy, however China has also done the legwork in reducing global poverty and it is in no way the model of a western, capitalist,  liberal democracy.
13285
13286[15-May-19 09:38 AM] Leftcom Stalin#1762
13287Cpn is an anarcho-fascist CapCom now
13288
13289[15-May-19 09:41 AM] Clapham#0791
13290```Remember: $1.90 is the equivalent of what that amount of money could buy in the US in 2011.  The economist David Woodward once calculated that to live at this level (in an earlier base year) would be like 35 people trying to survive in Britain “on a single minimum wage, with no benefits of any kind, no gifts, borrowing, scavenging, begging or savings to draw on (since these are all included as ‘income’ in poverty calculations).”  That goes beyond any definition of “extreme”.  It is patently absurd.  It is an insult to humanity.``` https://www.jasonhickel.org/blog/2019/2/3/pinker-and-global-poverty
13291
13292[15-May-19 05:49 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
13293https://youtu.be/2tBzNa3Pack
13294
13295[15-May-19 05:49 PM] 新世紀Orby#5864
13296@JuicyJuuce
13297
13298[15-May-19 06:35 PM] turnips#7959
13299Communist venusaila will falllllllll
13300
13301[15-May-19 06:36 PM] nudel#9073
13302`communist venusaila`