v70JJ8Yj

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3Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/08/28 21:14
4
5https://pastebin.com/6kDb3NpK
6
7Desperation and conditioning, crime rates are higher in low-income areas because stealing is better than starving. Kids learn how to shoplift to get things they otherwise couldn't afford, and just keep doing it afterwards because that's what they have the skill-sets for. Getting sent to prison just opens up more criminal opportunities, because the larger gangs and mobs have been using the system for networking and recruiting specialized convicts like safe-crackers, hitmen, cleaners, and most recently hackers since the 30s. It creates a sort of ecosystem of where the only authority anyone involved will respect are the ones that "earned" it by starting at the bottom like they did and taking what they wanted until they're at the top of the underworld.
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11Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/08/28 22:01
12
13Yes, thank you, Minsheme. It's all about prevention. We should be able to make a huge difference in just a few generations.
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17Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/08/29 05:13
18
19@Torture King
20Of course, so what do you propose? Make networking within prisons more difficult or rehabilitate everyone?
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23
24amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/08/29 10:41
25
26@Skyk
27Addiction because of prescription is not true and has been used as a scapegoat for the real reason people get addicted: They abuse it. When used normally for pain, its not addicting. When overused however, it is. And I specifically said we should probably help drug addicts. addicts arent criminals, as long as they arent distributing drugs.
28
29@Minsheme
30New to debate? Welcome to the great 2017 debate.
31Rehab would work better with addicts than criminals. Small crime MIGHT work, but repeat offenders or serious crime is usually unfixable. Even if a criminal is rehailitated, the prison sentence will still need to be served, whether its during rehab or before.
32
33I agree with you on psychopathy, however just killing them from birth isnt a good idea. If they do kill someone however and ARE psychopaths, throw them in the chair immediately.
34
35@TK
36Parents should teach the proper skillsets. Doing good in school, go to college, get a job. You dont need to be rich to get good grades, you just need to study and avoid the bad kids. Whether your rich or poor, theft is always wrong, VERY few exceptions. Or we could get rich people to bring money and move into ad neighborhoods
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40skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/08/29 10:51
41
42AD: You are straight-up wrong. It is quite common that people become dependent on painkillers even when using them as prescribed. The idea that painkillers would be non-addictive because you're in pain makes no biological sense. In fact, many studies have shown that using them to treat pain can actually enhance the process of both psychological and chemical dependency.
43
44I am a neuroscience with years of experience studying the science of addiction. This is not an argument you are going to win. Just shut up now before you embarrass yourself more, okay?
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47
48Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/08/29 11:16
49
50Whether or not stealing is morally wrong depends largely on what's being stolen, $50 worth of rice is not equal to $50 worth of champagne. I wouldn't condemn anyone as "bad" just because they're in a more unfortunate situation than me.
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53
54amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/08/29 11:30
55
56@skyk
57Then why arent all people who take painkillers for pain pill junkies? If your statement was true, painkillers would not be prescribed because everyone would fall addicted. I'd suggest you watch this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ao8L-0nSYzg . I dont agree with it 100%, but it does have some really interesting parts.
58
59@TK
60So you think its OK to steal from people more fortunate than you? Why dont I just steal my neighbors lamborghini just because I dont have a car at all yet he has 7. Poor people dont absolutely NEED to steal. They can live without it.
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64skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/08/29 12:51
65
66Painkillers are prescribed because otherwise life-saving and life-improving surgery would not be possible, even if some (obviously not all) people develop a dependence as a consequence. If they were 100% addictive, they probably would be used less often, but they aren't, and I never claimed they were. When I said "quite common", I meant that many drug addicts begin that way. Not sure how you read that as "everyone who takes painkillers becomes a junkie".
67
68Anyway, that video is a major oversimplification of drug addiction, and his claim that people prescribed morphine don't become addicted is just false. Rates of morphine addiction/dependence are only as low as they are because doctors typically carefully manage doses and plan for tolerance and withdrawal.
69
70Yes, the social environment is a factor in most, if not all, forms of addiction, but it's far from the only factor or even the most significant.
71
72Not only that, but the "rat park" experiment mentioned has been discredited for decades, ever since other researchers tried (and failed) to replicate it. Basically, that video is just an ad for yet another under-researched pop-neuroscience book, and should not inform drug policy.
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75
76Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/08/29 18:07
77
78Reading comprehension, you need some. I explicitly stated that there was a difference between stealing necessities and stealing luxuries.
79
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81
829132					#Nl3t12Mz 2017/08/29 23:22
83
84What is this debate about? It started from global warming and is now about addictive painkillers.
85(However, painkillers are like muscle relaxers: If you have to many, your heart will stop.)
86
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88
89Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/08/29 23:28
90
91"They can live without it"?
92What about the starving and/or dehydrated, or do they fall under your "very few exceptions"?
93
94@9132
95It lived on under a new topic basically because of me. And yes, I did that on purpose. You're welcome.
96
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99skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/08/29 23:43
100
101I'll admit I got pretty tired of talking about the climate, but then AD happened to stumble into being completely ignorant on a topic I am highly educated it, so now I'm back in.
102
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1059132					#Nl3t12Mz 2017/08/29 23:47
106
107@Dracobot
108I'm not sure if you made it better or worse.
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111
112Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/08/30 04:11
113
114"I wouldn't condemn anyone as "bad" just because they're in a more unfortunate situation than me."
115
116I don't know what your argument is. You are just saying you are a highly agreeable person, not commenting anything about criminals. You mean it's mere determinism that brings them to being criminals? It doesn't matter, they are still criminals and they know it, there's no need to sympathise for them.
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119
120Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/08/30 05:05
121
122@Minsheme
123That's the label amazingdude keeps using apparently without regard to context, "bad people". I'm saying that crime is a symptom of poverty, so throwing people in prison and calling it good is just throwing a rug over the mess instead of properly cleaning it with public works programs.
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127Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/08/30 05:50
128
129There are plenty of poor people who don't commit crimes out of desperation. If I stop beating people who come to steal my crops at night, what's going to happen? Of course that is different from the law, but it's analogous - even if we plan on rehabilitating rather than punishing, we have to stigmatise crime; consider reactions to crime as deterministic as crime arising from poverty.
130
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133amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/08/30 09:59
134
135@Skyk
136What percentage of people prescribed painkillers actually get addicted? The number is probably exaggerated. People have different addictive tendencies. Some people do crack and never touch it again, others do it once and become crackheads. People with addictive tendencies are more likely to fall addicted to anything, whether its crack, herion, or painkillers.
137
138@TK
139"Necessary" or not, theft is not OK.
140
141@Draco
142Very few exceptions is where death is literally on the line. Low income people are not at that level of poverty. Ever heard of food stamps?
143
144@Minsheme
145"Bad people" are crimnals. Crime is not a symptom of poverty. There is a fine line between poverty and crime. I did not say that crime is deterministic. Crime is caused by a will to commit crime. People with the will to commit crime are bad people, who need to be locked up. Reaction crime is justifiable (within reason) as a punishment to the initial crime committed. Beating someone up for repeated crop theft is OK, but killing them after stealing 1 piece of corn is not.
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148
149skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/08/30 12:25
150
151AD: The proportion of individuals who develop an addiction after being prescribed painkillers is difficult to measure, but it's estimated to be around 7%. That value represents the prevalence of addiction within painkiller use, which is important, but more important to our particular discussion is the role painkiller use plays in addiction. That is represented by the proportion of opioid addicts who developed addictions from prescription medication (80%, as I said).
152
153I'm not sure if it's deliberate or if you just can't concentrate, but you're drifting away from the basic argument. You argued that addiction is a moral failing, and that society therefore has no responsibility to assist addicts. The basis of your argument is objectively wrong, as is clearly established by the fact that many addicts acquired chemical dependency from legitimate medical necessity. Whether or not there are people who aren't addicted to the same drugs has very little to do with it.
154
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156
157Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/08/30 19:00
158
159@Minsheme
160Well of course it should be illegal, I'm just saying it's not necessarily "wrong" to take food or water or some other necessity if you otherwise can't pay for it- thieves who can pay but just won't are part of the problem. Ideally the government would subsidize you for the loss like they already do for farmers growing staples instead of cash crops.
161
162@amazingdude
163There's multiple levels of "okay" and "not okay", context is important.
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166
167Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/08/30 19:18
168
169You can easily argue that all propensity for addiction is immoral. I'd say that a fully moral and "good" person would be immunised from addiction (I am describing an almost divine person though). As you said, a big chunk of opioid use is not deliberate. Since it's arbitrary, I think it's either moral to be geared so that you're unwavered by that experience or its moral to have the will to push against the urge for continued opioid use.
170
171@AD
172I mostly agree with your pragmatic outlook. I think you misinterpreted my comment.
173
174(I guess it depends on your definition of "moral")
175
176@TK
177You mean since they were acting out of desperation instead of malice? I agree they had no malintent, but I can't make sense of this. Were they so desperate that they forgot the law? Who decides who was in desperation and who was malicious, since it's easy to blur the line? I understand why you'd want to subsidise damage from this crime, but it is very nitty gritty. Lots of specific instances, needing verification, and their effects may not be isolated i.e. may snowball. I also don't see it being enforced without removing deterrents for crime. Why would anyone be responsible when they can simply get to a point where they "need to steal"?Even welfare would do a better job than this.
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181skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/08/30 23:14
182
183@Minsheme
184I'm not really here to discuss philosophy, but measuring morality by the ability to resist addiction is as pointless as measuring it by the person's tendency toward seasonal allergies. If two people are given the same prescription to recover from surgery, they both follow the prescription, and one of them develops an addiction, the addicted individual isn't any worse than the other, just less lucky in terms of brain chemistry.
185
186It's been a known scientific fact for decades that some people are inherently more likely to develop chemical dependence under the same conditions, due to a number of fundamental biological factors. Of course, this only results in an epidemic of addiction because of a true moral failing: individuals like AD who feel no responsibility to support their fellow humans, and would rather put these people in jail or out on the street while still addicted than put them through rehabilitation.
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1909132					#qfLtTlAz 2017/08/31 00:58
191
192@amazingdude
193I watched the video and agree with a lot of it. There is some that i don't agree with, but the rest makes sense.
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197SkyPhantomhive			#RiRWL6l3 2017/08/31 04:29
198
199Can we talk about code? Or start an argument regarding how video game files should have an administrators code instead of being open to the public? 
200
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202
203amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/08/31 09:38
204
205@skyk
206I still believe they are at least partly at fault for their addiction.
207
208In that case, Guy 2 should pay for rehab. Also, I have stated multiple times that people with addictions SHOULD get rehab, just that they should be responsible for the cost. The same way that some people are more likely to get cancer, but still have to pay for their health care. Have you even read that in my previous replies?
209
210"Rehab would work better with addicts than criminals"
211"I'd be fine with rehabilitating drug addicts, as long as they weren't dealing and that they pay for the rehab."
212"Rehab might be feasible with drug abusers too."
213
214@TK
215Government should not subsidize poor peoples food. That's their problem, and if they can't make good money, they should get a job. The only people who deserve government help are the ones who CANT work. Anyone who CAN work but isn't does not deserve subsidized food, unless they already have a job.
216
217@minsheme
218Addictive tendency is biological, it cant be easily treated. Your comments are very philosophical and it's hard to determine your stance on the issues.
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222Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/08/31 09:47
223
224@skyk
225It was just devil's advocate, but in retrospect it was a silly angle to try since it's biological. How about we just weed out everyone with addict genes so that we can create the ubermensch?
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229skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/08/31 10:03
230
231AD: You can "believe" that it's their fault, but unless you have scientific evidence for it, your "belief" means nothing against the facts. The fact is, in many cases, exposure to painkillers is unavoidable within the proper medical care, and in a significant proportion of those cases the patient develops an addiction while properly using the prescribed drug. At what part of that is the person at fault? Regardless of what you believe, you can't just force yourself to not be addicted out of willpower. If you could, no one would want to be addicted.
232
233Saying that addicts should be fully responsible for the cost of rehab is not a solution for the addiction crisis. Addicts already have the option to try and pay for their own rehab, obviously, but the price is typically very expensive for someone without health insurance, so if the addict can't get public assistance for the cost, they will have no choice but to remain addicted, even at the cost of their wellbeing, and in many cases will have to turn to illegal drugs in order to avoid withdrawal (which can be potentially lethal outside of rehabilitating environments, by the way).
234
235Minsheme: Aside from eugenics being very problematic from both a moral and practical standpoint, it will be many many years before we can even identify the genetic basis behind addiction or resistance to addiction.
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239Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/08/31 20:09
240
241https://pastebin.com/3WSBTF26
242
243@Minsheme
244I agree, welfare is better, but if someone slips through the cracks it wouldn't be wrong for them to ensure survival another way. Like the ongoing nonsense in Flint, Michigan; if it turned out that some 60% of the water bottles they're completely dependent on were stolen directly from a bottling plant, would it really be the moral thing to confiscate it back and throw everyone involved in jail?
245 
246@amazingdude
247I'd argue that protecting it's people from starvation is just as important to the concept of a government as protecting them from any other danger. Pooling resources for public good is kind of the whole point of the social contract.
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251Vidkunssonn				#6gkHelVa 2017/09/01 08:29
252
253Finally, an argument involving something that actually has proven facts.
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257amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/09/01 11:31
258
259@skyk
260Why should we have to pay for a bunch of losers who started doing drugs in the first place? I dont want my tax dollars going to support someone who has been doing tons of drugs since he was 15.
261
262@Skyk, minsheme
263Eugenics is good for society in the end. We covered this earlier on in the debate. Eugenics can be used to eliminate inherited diseases from the population, greatly reducing healthcare costs and improving our society. Eugenics started out in the early 20th century in the US, and was very popular before some Austrian guy with a funny mustache took it to the extreme. I'd be in support of eliminating addiction genes. It's ultimately the best decision for society.
264
265@TK
266If somebody doesnt want to help poor people, then they shouldnt have to. It should be voluntary, I dont want money taken against my will to be given to somebody who fucked up in life and now relies on the govt for help. Unless he cant work or already has a job, he doesnt deserve free stuff.
267On an unrelated note, this debate has officially transcended the CB limit.
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271Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/09/01 12:10
272
273What exactly do you think taxes are for? Should we also make policing, firefighting, military training, and schooling 100% voluntary?
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277skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/09/01 12:41
278
279AD, aside from the fact that public aid is less costly in the long run anyway, are you just gonna ignore all of the facts I've said about how drug addicts are not just "a bunch of losers"? If you're just going to base everything on your idiotic prejudices instead of any actual evidence, I'm not even going to bother talking to you any more, because you clearly don't have the capacity to listen.
280
281And no, eugenics is not effective. I'm going to assume that no one here has a background in genetics or they would have spoken up but now, so you're going to have to believe me when I say that the most basic "negative" traits (such as a tendency toward Alzheimer's disease, for instance) are extremely complex, involving dozens of genes, many of which have not yet even been identified. Something with a less specific pathology, such as a higher rate of addiction, could potentially involve interactions between hundreds of genes. Not only that, but many of them are going to be essential on their own. Like, if you cut out all the genes that result in a tendency toward addiction, you'd inevitably end up with someone, in a best case scenario, with a totally nonfunctional motivational nervous circuit. It's not like there's just an "addiction gene" that got stuck in there that makes a person an addict.
282
283I don't expect everyone to have a degree in genetics and neuroscience, but for heck's sake, don't use your ignorance and prejudice for the basis of political policy.
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287abc123					#wgj3BymO 2017/09/01 14:55
288
289why is there always an argument here .-.
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293Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/09/01 16:43
294
295Eugenics is incredibly effective, the problem is mostly that people just don't have the assertiveness to make it happen. Modifying genes before birth is more or less something for transhumanism in comparison to the benefits of not allowing disabled people to reproduce. There is no reason why doing the same for bloodlines with Alzheimer's (which is definitely NOT the most basic negative trait), for example, wouldn't work eventually, but for traits like that it would become a logistical and utilitarian problem; probably has more convenient solutions than eugenics.
296
297Scholars of genetics are torn on how effective prenatal eugenics is so your appeal to authority isn't going to work. Darwinian eugenics works no doubt. We supplement the existence of people who needn't be alive and wouldn't be if we stopped assisting them for nothing.
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301skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/09/01 23:16
302
303https://pastebin.com/9J8gTnru
304
305If you define gene therapy as eugenics (which is a pretty stretched use of the term), then yes, eugenics can be effective, but even then for diseases with a single identified gene locus, such as sickle cell anemia. For diseases such as Alzheimer's (which, as a protein-level disease, is extremely basic), several possible genes have been implicated already, with others unknown, and the consequences of removing or altering each gene is still unknown. Genetic tests already are available, but there probably won't be gene therapy available for many years. Eve then, hundreds of thousands of people have some form of familial Alzheimer's disease, so investing in eugenic measures to treat every single individual with gene therapy would be an enormously expensive project.
306 
307I'm not exactly sure what you mean by Darwinian eugenics, since that's not really a term I've ever heard geneticists use, but assuming you mean a system of eugenics where selective pressure is artificially put against harmful phenotypic traits, it's pretty unlikely that would work unless the most draconian controls possible were implemented. Carriers of recessive genes, random mutation and the influence of epigenetics would make it too difficult to even identify who will express a harmful gene or set of genes. Like, the vast majority of people who know they carry a gene for early-onset AD already choose not to reproduce, and yet the disease still exists because it is still so challenging to identify ahead of time.
308 
309What evidence do you have that eugenics is effective?
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3139132 on dif com			#bmL0OYbZ 2017/09/02 01:03
314
315@abc123
316There is one side who believes they're right and the other side is wrong and vice-versa. I believe that people that drink their whole lives of of other peoples money is unfair, but lets say that amazingdude thinks differently.(Although highly unlikely) I think he's wrong and it's neck-to-neck battle. Does that answer your question? 
317
318Besides, we can arrest people who take drugs, so what of it?
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322amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/09/02 08:32
323
324@TK
325No, because those benefit the community. We all benefit from having firefighters and police. We dont benefit by giving a homeless dude free money. Get a job or get out.
326
327@skyk
328Most of them begin by voluntarily taking drugs. We're talking about all drugs combined, not just painkillers. These people chose to take these drugs, so they should pay to fix themselves as consequence for their actions. Sure, it is possible to be fed crack in a drink or something, but thats hard to prove as the starting point for an addiction. Poverty does not cause people to become addicted. Some people are more vulnerable to addiction than others, but in each case, the starting point of the addiction is the users choice to take drugs. Theres people vulnerable to addiction that never took drugs in the first place and are doing fine.
329
330Darwinian eugenics works like like evolution, except WE choose who doesnt get to reproduce. Sadly, this will never happen, because Hitler took it to the extreme, and you'll NEVER gain public support for it. If we DO want to become an intergalactic civilization, we'd have to go through the process someday. Maybe it's too early, but it must be done some time for the benefit of the human species.
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334skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/09/02 09:02
335
336https://pastebin.com/nL0GkPia
337
338Okay, let me make an outline so that it's very clear why eugenics is not an optimal strategy:
339 
340To target a genetic disease, the gene locus must be identified, which in most cases will most likely not happen for years or even decades with focused research.
341 
342Genetic diseases are typically not visible phenotypically, because of three factors:
343* Carriers of recessive traits
344* Diseases which don't manifest until late in life
345* Epigenetic suppression of disease genes (a phenomena which, notably, was not well understood at the time when eugenics was still a popular scientific view)
346 
347So, to identify everyone carrying harmful genes, dozens of genetic tests must be performed on every person in the population. The population (whether it's a city or country) would then need to either:
348* Be totally isolated to prevent outside genetic material from entering
349* Implement the most effective border control of all time
350* Or, just test the entire population of the Earth
351 
352At this point, we're already talking about an expense that is magnitudes higher, even at a local scale, than the most generous healthcare proposals for the entire United States, and that's not even getting to the actual issue of how you intend to regulate reproduction.
353 
354If you're going to prohibit reproduction for everyone that carries one of the thousands of possible genetic mutations that can cause disease, you're going to have to impose that on a huge proportion of the population (I can't even estimate how huge, because as I've said the amount of testing this would require to even begin with would be extremely expensive). Aside from the practical cost, the society would have to deal with the inevitable resistance and, if the restrictions are successful, the proportional drop in population (and good luck bringing in outsiders to fill in for the shrinking labour force when you have to genetically screen all of them, too).
355 
356And of course, because the nature of most of these diseases comes from mutation, you will have to repeat this process every generation to make sure the diseases don't just spontaneously reappear anyway.
357 
358Is that really better than just communally paying for public healthcare? I'd rather give poor people medicine than pay a thousand times more to have random people sterilized.
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362Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/09/02 18:23
363
364I'm not saying "give homeless people free money" I'm saying that everyone has as much right to live as anybody else. If someone has higher aspirations than mere survival, (this might shock you but most people at least have a hobby that costs money) then they'll likely get a job on their own to pay for it once survival is the sure thing it's supposed to be in civilized society. If you insist on oversimplifying it it's basically "Expand the scope of the Food Stamps program to include everything needed to live, no more no less.".
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368Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/09/02 21:20
369
370You're putting a lot of trust in people's default nature
371
372@skyk
373There is not much to calculate in the effectiveness of eugenics. If there is any objection to sterilising hereditarily disabled people apart from a logistical one then I'd like to hear it.
374
375Here's a relevant video.
376https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1Hka36EGgU
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380skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/09/02 23:53
381
382Minsheme: https://pastebin.com/PxK6WqFp
383
384I mean, there are many many people who could make ethical and philosophical objections to sterilizing people based on their genetics (because, to actually remove a genetic disability from the population, you would have to target carriers, not just people actually expressing the gene), but I had a feeling you and AD wouldn't really care that much about ethics, so I've been focusing on the practical aspects.
385 
386Brennan's proposal is not the sterilization of hereditarily disabled people, anyway. He essentially proposed that gene sequencing should be more easily publicly available, and that carriers of genes related to severe disability should be incentivized to either not have children, or use gene therapy to treat the child's disability congenitally. This is a more reasonable proposal, but it's still not that feasible in the present. Brennan brought up that gene sequencing is getting cheaper, but it is still very expensive, especially when you consider that there are thousands of genetic disabilities, many of which can be carried invisibly. There's a reason the film Gattaca is science fiction.
387 
388It's true that supporting disabled adults can cost a lot of money to a society, but all the effort in Brennan's proposal wouldn't effectively reduce that compared to how much it would cost to sequence every prospective parent, when you consider that the majority of even congenital disabilities are environmental or develop from mutations during development rather than parental genes, not to mention disabilities that develop through sickness or injury later in life.
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392amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/09/03 02:40
393
394https://pastebin.com/VFJMtm8B
395
396@skyk 
397Require by law that all babies will be genetically tested for diseases. In around 100 years, you'd have the entire population measured. Eugenics takes centuries.
398 
399I'd say its more unethical to keep the diseases circulating in the population. We'd have the ability to cure all inherited diseases, and the rate of mutation is so small it wouldnt cause a disease to spread, especially with from birth testing. If we can somehow edit genes in the womb to cure the disease, that'll be fine.
400 
401It's bad from our perspective, but what if in 200 years it becomes way more feasible and the public's opinions change? Many people right now with inherited diseases don't WANT to have children because of it. Who's to say this wont continue in the future? Theres options already, there's adoption and artifical fertilization. I'm only objected to spreading of their genes, not them raising children.
402 
403Morals vary by society. In this society, sterilization of the diseased is very wrong, but during the eugenics movement, it wasn't. Who's to say it wont change in the far future, and maybe the disabled wont even want to have children?
404 
405Sure, we can just pay for healthcare for everyone, but that completely avoids the issue. Thats like saying "Why cure cancer when you can treat it?" Either way, people are still suffering from diseases they were born with, and no matter how free it is, healthcare is still a pain in the ass. Nobody WANTS to go to the doctor, free or not free. These diseases arent going to stop from appearing if we just treat them. Prevention is the best medicine.
406 
407@TK
408Then why don't we help them get jobs, not free money? If we get them a job, they can benefit society AND make money. Like I said dozens of times before, the ones who CANT work can receive free money, but thats all. Teach a man to fish. You can't expect society to give to you if you dont give back.
409 
410@minsheme
411I agree with that guys video, and coming from a disabled guy, it's really powerful. This guy presents a great viewpoint, and it should seriously be considered.
412
413==================================================
414
415Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/09/03 08:10
416
417@Minsheme
418I trust that most people are greedy enough to want more than a small apartment and some cheap meals to occupy their time with. I also trust that most of those are lazy enough to find a hobby they can make some extra money with like basket weaving or whatever.
419
420@amazingdude
421It doesn't have to be money, it could just be a care package with the essentials- like the kind they drop in Africa sans malaria medicines. Plus it's really hard to hear back from a job offer if you don't have a phone number and/or house address; speaking from experience, almost nobody actually uses the email address on a resume to get in contact. I got a physical letter once, but not 1 in 17 applications resulted in an email.
422
423==================================================
424
425Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/09/03 09:11
426
427@skyk https://pastebin.com/JCApqGFR
428
429What is unethical exactly? As Brennan says, it's now normal to claim that a disabled life should be no less full than any other life. I see no way around the fact that this perniciously devalues everyone who isn't disabled.
430 
431As far as I can tell, his ideal was that disabled lives are a backwards part of society and if it could be done in the flick of a switch they should all be removed. The rest is about implementation and handling the momentum of the system we have now (there are countless gears set in motion that would need to go in the opposite direction).
432
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434
435amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/09/03 09:25
436
437@TK
438That might work well in a socialist society, but we're not socialist. The problem with that is that it will motivate them to stay unemployed. "Why should I work if I get fed for free and have all this time to walk around and do shit?" Thats not solving a problem, thats avoiding it altogether. Lack of work is the cause of poverty, and by giving the care packages to everyone who is unemployed, able to work or not, your incentivizing them to not work.
439
440If email is their only option to contact, they will use it. The reason you didnt get an email was because you supplied phone and house address. If you didnt, they would have contacted by email.
441
442==================================================
443
444Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/09/03 17:36
445
446https://pastebin.com/A5Tcv5pU
447
448All that a capitalist society requires is a system of Haves and Have Nots to fuel the endless exchange of money for goods, there's no reason the thing that Have Nots don't have should be their lives. Think about how boring it would actually be to have the bare minimum and a clear mind that isn't 100% focused on surviving the here-and-now. No books, electronics, coffee, restaurant meals, games, art supplies, furniture, fancy cars, music, candy, pastries, etc. Plus it takes money to maintain and replace a lot of the luxuries already owned, somebody that spends every day jogging around town will end up going through a lot of running shoes that probably only get replaced by the State once every few years.
449
450==================================================
451
452Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/09/04 05:25
453
454TK https://pastebin.com/DK8ySeM4
455
456That was conflicting. Marxist dismissal of capitalism followed by "life would suck if [Marxist society]". What you're suggesting about primal survival, quelling boredom etc is pretty naturalistic and therefore conservative. That also calls back to the first sentence "fuelling the endless exchange of money", I don't know why that's written like it's something negative, but what actually fuels it if anything is markets, largely rooted in naturalism, and they exist so that "lives can be unboring" among whatever else. The alternative is to supplement the fruits of people's lives through the state.
457
458==================================================
459
460Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/09/04 10:46
461
462https://pastebin.com/YAng2FVe
463
464I'm actually a constructivist, not sure where you got the idea that I'm a Marxist. I would say an endless exchange of money for goods is the definition of a stable market, people wouldn't be trading things if it didn't benefit them in some way.
465
466==================================================
467
468Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/09/04 11:39
469
470Just from "haves and have nots", it seems to be common in Marxism/its followers and I assumed it came from oppressor vs oppressed.
471
472==================================================
473
474amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/09/04 11:50
475
476@TK
477If they want to live a fuller life, then they should give back to society by working. Trumps wall will create tons of jobs.
478
479==================================================
480
481Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/09/04 12:00
482
483For crying out loud, TK. Endless e.xhange was the problem both times.
484
485==================================================
486
487U HAVE 2 VOTE!!!		#KbsngwXs 2017/09/04 13:32
488
489How about have ha55ii add delete comments? That way you can send deletion requests to hate comments and of they get more than 10 deletion requests in a day, it will get removed. ONLY in PG1 and PG2 comments. In other comment sections hardly anyone goes there.
490
491==================================================
492
493amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/09/04 14:16
494
495@U Have 2 Vote
496I disagree with that idea. Everybody is entitled to their opinion. They may be dragged into a 4 month long debate or absolutely roasted, but they have the right to their opinion. I can choose not to believe in man made global warming, or TK can be a socialist, but we both have the same right to our opinion, right or wrong.
497
498Deletion by vote is a form of censorship, and ANY form of censorship is bad. If your proposal was implemented, the CB would turn into an echo chamber of popular opinions with no real discussion.
499
500==================================================
501
502Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/09/04 17:52
503
504@Minsheme
505Haves produce and sell resources in excess, Have Nots consume and purchase resources when they want something. It's the most basic class system that can exist and likely the most fair to the lower class because it doesn't imply divine right or some other nonsense.
506
507@amazingdude
508At best the Wall is a bandage, it's not going to be in construction forever, most of the country's homeless have no way to travel that far south, and when construction's done it'll require far less civilian effort to maintain. And of course, it's not going to be very effective at its stated purpose. A better project for temporary construction jobs would be repairing and expanding Eisenhower's interstate system, which is definitely useful but falling apart in more rural areas that can't afford to maintain more than gravel roads.
509
510==================================================
511
5129132					#Nl3t12Mz 2017/09/04 23:37
513
514Out of all the states to suffer, we are the worst. I live in Arizona and half the people don't even speak english. Do you know how hard it is hearing someone say"Your brother died in Nogales trying to defend himself in the middle of a warzone?" We need the wall to protect our country from bloodthirsty illegalls.
515
516==================================================
517
518amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/09/05 02:46
519
520https://pastebin.com/a5bbupYL
521
522==================================================
523
524@TK
525I still think the wall is a better idea, coming from a place where illegals are almost the majority. We've let too many of them in and they're replacing US citizens, taking our jobs, our tax dollars, and multiply like spiders. People wonder why so many people move out of California, this is why. California is slowly being turned into Mexico, and all the Americans are moving out because of it. It sounds racist, but it's true: Many parts of the southwest US are being overrun by illegal immigrants, and we need to do something about it. "We are a nation of immigrants". IMMIGRANTS, not refugees. We shouldnt have to take care of everyone just because their country has problems.
526 
527Diversity's great, but not when half the population doesnt even bother to learn our culture and come here legally, and are almost turning us into Mexico. We cant just let millions of people come into our country uncontrolled. Their country is fucked up, but that doesnt give them the right to migrate all their people somewhere else for free. Thats running away from their problem and not facing it. As a US citizen, I felt like my government didnt care about me anymore. People who come illegally are getting better treatment than real US citizens who have been here for generations. I'm pissed at Obama for letting it happen, and at least Trump wants to do something about it.
528 
529Birthright citizenship needs to be updated for the 21st centry. You shouldnt be able to climb a fence, pop out a baby, and climb back over and have that baby be considered just as American as you or me.
530 
531Maybe you'll understand, maybe you'll think I'm a xenophobic bigot, but the undenyable truth is that mass migration destroys the native population and culture. Ever heard of Columbus? I dont mean to compare the illegal immigration crisis to the native american genocide, but you get my point.
532 
533Never thought about improving the interstate highway system. I'd love to have that done. How much more plausible is that than a wall?
534 
535@9132
536What part of Arizona are you from? If your brother really did die, I feel really bad for you and angry at the government.
537
538==================================================
539
540Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/09/05 08:06
541
542https://pastebin.com/qzZitnMA
543
5441) Being illegal they generally don't have the paperwork for any job that's over-the-table, under-the-table jobs themselves are quite illegal so that's reason to pressure employers for preferring tax fraud to fair business practices rather than the employees for doing what they can when they can.
545 
5462) I agree, proof of citizenship or at least documentation of going through what is apparently a 5 year (minimum) process should be a requirement for receiving social security benefits, etc. if it isn't already.
547 
5483) No reason to be mean, I imagine the birthrate isn't that drastically off from any other predominantly Catholic population.
549 
5504) I was under the impression that the US's war prizes from the Mexican-American war have always had predominantly Mexican populations, how do you tell who's broadcasting their illegality and who just has a large amount of pride in their cultural heritage?
551 
5525) Yes, absolutely none of our major immigration waves were refugees fleeing from countries with problems, certainly not the original Puritan colonists, victims of the Irish Potato Famine, thousands from Imperial China that had basically never heard of democracy or life outside of a caste system, a few million Jews fleeing Eastern Europe, or still more refugees fleeing from a significantly more war-torn Europe, Soviet Union, and Cuba. No, all of our ancestors came from places without any problems. /s
553 
5546) Stages of grief as applied to culture shock, they don't want to admit that they were forced to basically give up on their homeland and leave, so they choose to "deny" it pretend it's still Mexico. Lots of foreign nationals all over the world end up doing the same thing for their respective cultures of origin; their kids and their kids' kids will probably be just as American as the next guy if history continues to repeat itself.
555 
5567) Agreed, though I'm having trouble imagining a suitable replacement that wouldn't be draconian.
557 
5588) Don't worry about it, I almost never write people off as bigoted, I might wonder at whether they have anything to gain politically or financially for doing something I perceive as pointlessly aggressive but usually I figure they're having a bad day.
559 
5609) Actually about 70% of the native population were already dead before the SmallPox blanket thing Andrew Jackson did. Patient Zero for the plague is thought to have been a slave on a Spanish ship about 200 years before the first boat full of Englishmen arrived. And since the dominant medical theory of the time claimed that bad smells or "miasma" were responsible for disease and "germs" were unprovable nonsense only quacks believed in, most of the genocide was completely by accident.
561 
56210) Well they're all over the country rather than just across the southern border, so it'd take at least 5 times more labor to get it done. Or something, probably more or less depending on conditions between states. And since the original Interstate system was mostly concerned with maintaining order after a hypothetical nuclear apocalypse, what we have isn't prepared for the sort of things we've been needing it for.
563 
564Like the hurricane in Houston, the reason there wasn't an evacuation before it hit was because the last time Houston evacuated for a hurricane it resulted in a massive traffic jam on the highway and hundreds of people died in their cars. If the Interstate were constructed with evacuations in mind then that probably wouldn't have happened and the current flood would probably be more of an inconvenience than anything life-threatening.
565
566==================================================
567
568amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/09/05 09:06
569
570https://pastebin.com/vFsXbeKz
571
572@TK
573 
5741. Many of them use fake documents to get work. Even still many work under the table and dont pay taxes. Companies are desperate for labor.
575 
5762. It probably already is, however they stil give it anyway, or they use fake documents.
577 
5783. Last I checked hispanics have the highest birth rates out of any group in the country.
579 
5804. I thought the same, however looking at demographics on Wikipedia shows the entire southwest getting more hispanic every 10 years since 1970, when the category was added to the census. After a few generations, immigrants become fully assimilated. For example, Most white Americans arent celebrating the Queen's birthday or other Eurpoean traditions anymore. With all this, I find it hard to believe that most people in these areas have been there for hundreds of years ever since the Spanish founded the colonies. The culture is just too strong.
581 
5825. Never thought about that. I always thought people came here because they loved America and wanted to make it better, not just running away from their horrible country.
583 
5846. That actually makes alot of sense, however pretending you're still in the country you fled isn't very healthy.
585 
5867. I've got a proposal. Anyone born in the US would be considered a citizen if one of their parents was a citizen. That means if people immigrate legally from another country, become citizens and have a child, that child is a US citizen. However if somebody climbs the fence, pops out a baby, then climbs back over, that baby is not a citizen. At this point in history, the US has a natural population, and citizenship should follow. European countries dont have automatic birthright citizenship. I also believe the idea of a "melting pot" is outdated. We are our own country, with a unique identity and culture. The melting pot has cooled.
587 
588This does not solve the problem with anchor babies already born, however, but that issue has no good solution. They shouldnt be here, but they've lived here all their lives, so deportation isnt really right either. We can solve illegal immigration, but the damage has already be done.
589 
5908. Reddit is a liberal echo chamber, say anything slightly right of center you'll get destroyed, downvoted, and banned. So is my home city.
591 
5929. Interesting.
593 
59410. Widening freeways wont make it much faster in evacuations. Crowds dont cause traffic, Lane changers do. Even still, 4 lanes going 5mph is better than 2 lanes going 5mph. How exactly would we better prepare our roads for mass evacuation? I support your idea of upgrading the interstate highway system, but I just dont know how it will be done. Only thing I can think of is reversible lanes and bidirectional signage. Safer bridges and flood prevention perhaps?
595
596==================================================
597
598Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/09/07 02:25
599
600https://pastebin.com/CBY9HuZ7
601
602
6031&2) If companies are so desperate for labor, how can there still a shortage of jobs among citizens? They get to pick who they hire and if they choose someone with sketchy documentation who will work for half or less of minimum wage that's on them for being vultures.
604 
6053now2) Is that counting people who specifically got pregnant to have a kid north of the border? Because I feel like gaming the system like that would throw off a lot of fertility statistics.
606 
6074now3) Most white Americans are actually ethnically German, about 46 million as of 2014. In 1910 German was the second most spoken first language in the country, it only changed in the wake of WW1 and WW2 when everything German was stigmatized. In any case, hamburgers, hotdogs, kindergartens, and Christmas trees are still just as ubiquitous in the US as they were in the 1800s. Just as I imagine tortillas, sugar breads, and (I dunno, Dia de los Muertos? That's bombastic enough already I'm surprised it's not here by now.) will probably be ubiquitous in the 2100s.
608 
6097now4) That could work, there's some precedence with older immigration law that requires a spouse/family member already living here to vouch for immigrant hopefuls, short be short work to stretch that definition over fetuses.
610 
61110now5) I was thinking of adding more exit/entry lanes onto it. Like, I live right on I-5 and it's the only way onto the network from my city without taking some backroads to the next town- despite city limits sprawling over two different counties. If there were say, if there were any reason to evacuate the people living in the "back" would have to wait for everybody else to leave first, but with more entries onto the highway spread more evenly across every population center there'd be less rush to get to any one in particular and traffic flow would improve drastically. I think. My only experience with traffic design is from Sim City.
612
613==================================================
614
615amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/09/07 08:41
616
617@TK
618
6191. They still take the risk by hiring them, and many use fake documents as described as before. Maybe they even cover it up and lie about their legality status to the government. Companies will take major risks to make profits.
620
6212. I'd assume so, as its out of all births in the US. It could also be that in interracial marriages with a hispanic, the baby is considered hispanic, as opposed to mixed, in other interracial marriages.
622
6233. Already are in some areas, no doubt all around in 80 years. It's almost as if history is repeating itself, except with mexican culture. I personally disagree with it, but its happening.
624
6255. I agree with that. We do need more exits on our freeways, however not too much, as that would just make traffic worse on normal days. No more than 1 exit per mile. While we're at it, let's upgrade freeway interchanges to be full access, so you dont have to take side streets to get on the right freeway direction.
626
627==================================================
628
629{No reply to the above comment, golden age of debate ends}
630
631================================================== {Topic shift 2}
632
633amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/09/08 13:07
634
635As an object gets larger, it looks larger. As an object gets further away, it looks smaller. If it is infinately large (A strech plane), it will cover exactly 1/2 of the possible angles you can view it from. If an object is infinately far away, it will vanish.
636
637If an infinately large object is infinately far away, what the hell happens?
638
639==================================================
640
641Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/09/08 17:50
642
643You see nothing, of course. Same reasoning for why the stretch plane covers 1/2.
644
645==================================================
646
647Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/09/08 21:52
648
649@amazingdude
650I know where this is from. If the object is infinitely far away, light takes an infinite amount of time to reflect off of the wall and reach your eyes, so you would not see it.
651
652When you ignore this, you have to be careful. Infinity is not a set number, so every time we use it we treat it as a general amount relative to everything else. Because of this, it depends (the ratio to the wall to its distance away is indeterminate). If the wall had a surface area of א_one units and it was a distance of א_naught units, then we would be able to see it because its size vastly overwhelms its distance. If it's the other way around, we would not be able to see it because the distance vastly overwhelms its size. The infinity is still there because א_naught and א_one both represent infinity.
653
654==================================================
655
656OwenDaPanda				#VYQpyVtv 2017/09/08 22:06
657
658There is some deep shit going on here
659
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661
662U HAVE 2 VOTE!!!		#E2nuHWpX 2017/09/08 22:29
663
664@amazingdude that doesn't make sense because you can't divide infinity by infinity. 
665
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667
668amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/09/09 07:26
669
670So does anyone wish to continue the Great PG2 Debate?
671amazingdude #padtckOV 2017/09/07 08:41
672
673==================================================
674
675U HAVE 2 VOTE!!!		#ZiAQL0tb 2017/09/09 07:38
676
677@amazingdude Nobody needs to be in the Great PG2 Debate. It just might start a big argument and possibly a "war" like in PG1.
678
679==================================================
680
681amazingdude				#N1hn3TpZ 2017/09/09 10:34
682
683The debate is so long, the limit swallowed the beginning.
684Also, comments aren't really deleted. Some dude found comments going back years hidden in dbs servers
685
686so the debate is officially over then :(
687I was hoping to set a record.
688
689==================================================
690
691Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/09/09 12:40
692
693Still, I'm game for more debating if there's still any ground to cover. Last one kind of petered out into "I agree with this" "me too", and at that point you may as well just find a mirror to agree with.
694
695==================================================
696
697amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/09/09 12:44
698
699Someone give us debate topics. Let the Great PG2 Debate live on!!!
700
701==================================================
702
703Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/09/09 12:55
704
705Who do you believe: Newton, Leibniz, or was it Archimedes all along?
706
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708
709OmegaPirate				#ThE7mUFZ 2017/09/09 13:21
710
711It was all aliens, Draco.
712
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714
715Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/09/09 15:04
716
717Kind of funny how the solution to "what do you see if an object is infinitely far away" puzzle could contradict the one about an infinite stretch plane covering 1/2. It would never reach 1/2 if light had to travel infinitely. I thought this was just a hypothetical so things like light wouldn't be taken into account.
718
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720
721CapsLock				#KirKIu4r 2017/09/09 16:07
722
723Bush did 911
724there, thats a debate topic ;)
725
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727
728Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/09/09 17:41
729
730Depends what the "Bush" entity means. Yes, Jews did 9/11 and Bush happened to be the nominal leader at the time.
731
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733
734amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/09/09 23:59
735
736@capslock
737Well not specifically Bush, I do believe there is more to it than just 19 terrorists hijacking passenger planes. For example, pilots had to be involved in training the hijackers, or maybe even being the hijackers themselves. Perhaps there were explosives planted on the planes. Something just doesnt seem right about the official story.
738
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740
741Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/09/10 01:11
742
743It's a matter of public record that they were in fact trained by US forces, about 3 decades before 9/11 as a way to hassle the USSR's interests in the middle east. That's also around the time Bin Laden's posse was radicalized into perceiving any and all foreign involvement in the middle east as colonialism- because at the time the Pentagon was still more concerned about potential dangers of communism than making and arming over a dozen xenophobic lunatics.
744
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746
747OmegaPirate				#ThE7mUFZ 2017/09/10 04:25
748
749If you don't know, blame it on one of these three things:
750Jews
751ISIS
752Obama/Trump
753
754==================================================
755
756Vidkunssonn				#6gkHelVa 2017/09/10 04:53
757
758I blame Jaden. It's all Jaden's fault.
759
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761
7629132					#Nl3t12Mz 2017/09/10 04:56
763
764Who the hell is Jaden?
765
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767
768amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/09/10 05:12
769
770@TK
771So 9/11 is our own da,mn fault. fucking lovely.
772
773==================================================
774
775Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/09/10 11:53
776
777Continuum Hypothesis: true or false?
778
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780
781U HAVE 2 VOTE!!!		#5mbMD9a9 2017/09/12 12:33
782
783Don't put puzzles or opinions unrelated to PG in the comments. They start arguments.
784
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786
787skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/09/12 12:43
788
789Comments 2017/06/08 to 2017/09/12
790https://pastebin.com/VQ1748Cn
791
792==================================================
793
794amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/09/12 13:54
795
796@skyk
797I've got backups from when the debate started. I compiled an archive over the past few weeks. This one starts at the top, has dividers, integrates pastes, and uncensors words
798
799Last minute debate topics? #LongLiveClimateDebate
800
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802
803OwenDaPanda				#VYQpyVtv 2017/09/13 00:33
804
805Everyone debate this
8069/11 was a planned explosion
807All the planes were cgi on the videos
808And there were explosives in the building
809
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811
8129132					#Nl3t12Mz 2017/09/13 01:43
813
814Well, it was suspicious. 
815
816==================================================
817
818Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/09/13 02:34
819
820Yes, it was absolutely planned, you don't just hijack an airliner and plow it into a building because you've got a day off of work and have nothing better to do.
821
822New York City is one of the most constantly active populated cities in the world, how the hell would a doctored video convince any of them the planes they saw didn't exist.
823
824Maybe? For all we know the janitor was planning on going Postal later that evening. In any case, a bunch of old guys in the desert pissed off that the US has "colonialist" airbases everywhere have a lot less to lose than gain from the tactic than a draconian US government does from destroying an edifice of economic power and demoralize their people to get a resource they already have in surplus.
825
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827
828OwenDaPanda				#VYQpyVtv 2017/09/13 04:55
829
830What I mean by planned event was that it was the government and they just told everyone that there were planes as they belived it.
831
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833
8349132					#Nl3t12Mz 2017/09/13 05:32
835
836@OwenDaPanda
837Your wrong. It was a setup, knowingly or not.
838
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840
841CamMax1305				#CZMwa3uo 2017/09/13 06:00
842
843I watched a video where it was the plane crashing into 2 second tower in slowmo and it looked so CGI and the explosion was delayed
844
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846
847Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/09/13 06:26
848
849I think the fire department there happened to be filming something near the Towers right at that moment, so they got the planes on their own camera in completely accidental circumstances.
850
851==================================================
852
8534783937279458294		#bS1191YD 2017/09/13 06:54
854
855Well, relating to OwenDaPanda if they in fact were not planes what were they? 
856
857==================================================
858
859Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/09/13 07:28
860
861@OwenDaPanda
862You seem to have skipped right over my main argument so I'll reiterate.
863There's no motive; anybody demonstrating the competence it takes to arrange something like that, frame somebody else, and bury the truth for 16 years is going to be rather competent by necessity. But the US government didn't gain enough out of the ordeal to justify the loss in economic power and civilian morale. Only an idiot would make that move, but an idiot wouldn't be able to.
864
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866
867amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/09/13 07:34
868
869Like I said, I believe there might have been explosives hidden on the plane. Something more than just jet fuel.
870
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872
873OwenDaPanda				#VYQpyVtv 2017/09/13 08:17
874
875@4783...
876They aren't anything. All the "planes" were just CGI in the news videos, and all the planes that people saw were just a suggestion from the government. (Or the people who staged it)
877
878@TK
879It doesn't excactly need to be the government. It could be terrorist, but they didn't crash some hijacked planes, all they did was set explosives and then suggest to everyone that it was planes.
880
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882
883amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/09/13 08:59
884
885@Vidkunssonn {OwenDaPanda}
886But we actually saw the planes...
887
888==================================================
889
890OwenDaPanda				#VYQpyVtv 2017/09/13 09:30
891
892You didn't see the planes, you THINK you did, but that's just te power of suggestion, and they are not accualy there.
893
894==================================================
895
8964783937279458294		#bS1191YD 2017/09/13 09:48
897
898@OwenDaPanda
899What are you suggesting? 
900
901==================================================
902
903Madisonflame			#kdpeI8WM 2017/09/13 11:17
904
905Can you guys just STOP talking about it.....
906LIKE MY GOD.
907
908DON'T FORGET ABOUT THE PENTAGON GETTING HIT AS WELL, THEY RECORDED A PLANE HITTING IT.
909NOW STOP TALKING ABOUT IT.
910
911==================================================
912
913OwenDaPanda				#VYQpyVtv 2017/09/13 11:58
914
915(Sorry Madison, but they wanted debates, and I like debates, so long as they aren't about stuff that's tooooo stupid)
916
917What I'm sugesting is that someone like a terrorist or a group of terrorist that planted some bombs in the towers. They then had some waiting in the ground to spread the word of a plane hitting the towers, so people would belive that they had been hit by a terrorist hijacked planes.
918But really, there were no planes.
919
920PS I know that there really were planes, but I heard that you wanted a debate
921
922
923==================================================
924
925U HAVE 2 VOTE!!!		#5mbMD9a9 2017/09/13 12:15
926
927Guys don't comment things unrelated to PG because they start arguments.
928
929==================================================
930
931Vidkunssonn				#6gkHelVa 2017/09/13 12:28
932
933@amazingdude
934Why did you tag ME?
935
936==================================================
937
938amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/09/13 13:20
939
940I saw the purple and thought it was you.
941
942==================================================
943
944Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/09/13 14:32
945
946@U HAVE 2 VOTE!!!
947Yeah but they're tame arguments with no ad-hominems, it's not like we all hate eachother.
948Dissent isn't automatically a bad thing.
949
950==================================================
951
952Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/09/13 14:54
953
954@UH2V
9551. I challenge you to talk about something that hasn't been discussed before.
9562. I think the best element is mercury. Anyone want to prove me wrong?
957
958==================================================
959
9609132					#Nl3t12Mz 2017/09/13 23:17
961
962@OwenDaPanda
963We have all sorts of factual evidence. We have thousands of witness'. An RPG might of been set off. And the people on the airplane were probably prisoners from a terrorist country. Also, I really don't think that it was a passenger airplane in the first place. Planes shouldn't be flying near those buildings in the first place.
964
965==================================================
966
967OwenDaPanda				#VYQpyVtv 2017/09/13 23:56
968
969@9132
970Everyone just thinks they saw the planes. There weren't actually planes. They saw the explosions and some brought up the idea of a plane hitting the buildings. This idea spreaded, and soon, due to the power of suggestion, people started to think that it had been planes.
971
972==================================================
973
9749132 #2					#bmL0OYbZ 2017/09/14 01:01
975
976@OwenDaPanda
977How many times do I have to tell you that they were airliners. The government cleared them as" Hijacked PASSENGER AIRPLANES". Is that enough proof? 
978
979Although I said they probably weren't passenger airplanes, I go with what the government said. Not what you think up.
980
981==================================================
982
983OwenDaPanda				#VYQpyVtv 2017/09/14 01:11
984
985@9132
986The thing is, the government cleared them as hijacked passenger airlines, but that was the very same government who is possibly the organization behind the 9/11 bombs. They cleared them as "passenger airlines" because that's what they wanted people to belive.
987
988==================================================
989
990Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/09/14 02:15
991
992Except they have nothing to gain, it comes back to that "nobody with those logistics would be that stupid" thing again. People generally avoid spending large amounts of time and resources on something unless they get something more valuable for it.
993
994==================================================
995
996OwenDaPanda				#VYQpyVtv 2017/09/14 03:41
997
998They get war
999
1000==================================================
1001
10029132					#bmL0OYbZ 2017/09/14 04:48
1003
1004Maybe they had an abundance of materials and decided to have a little "fun".
1005
1006==================================================
1007
1008Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/09/14 05:08
1009
1010War is a means not an end.
1011
1012==================================================
1013
1014Madisonflame			#kdpeI8WM 2017/09/14 05:17
1015
1016I told you guys to stop bloody talking about it!
1017
1018==================================================
1019
1020Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/09/14 05:19
1021
1022Yeah well, we don't know you and have no reason to value your opinion more than usual.
1023
1024==================================================
1025
10269132 					#bmL0OYbZ 2017/09/14 05:24
1027
1028WE'LL NEVER FREAKIN' STOP!!!
1029
1030==================================================
1031
1032OwenDaPanda				#VYQpyVtv 2017/09/14 05:55
1033
1034There was no reason they just wanted a war cause they were psychopaths!
1035
1036==================================================
1037
10384783937279458294		#bS1191YD 2017/09/14 06:54
1039
1040yeah, there's not much debate on this subject. 
1041
1042================================================== {Topic shift 3}
1043
1044amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/09/14 07:48
1045
1046Increase NASA's budget. There really is no reason not to.
1047
1048==================================================
1049
1050Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/09/14 08:01
1051
1052Seconded.
1053
1054https://pastebin.com/8SmwfGwk {https://www.sciencealert.com/it-s-official-nasa-s-peer-reviewed-em-drive-paper-has-finally-been-published}
1055
1056All we need is to refine this thing and strap it onto a drilling rig and we'll basically be post-scarcity from all the asteroid mining. It's an investment with infinite returns.
1057
1058==================================================
1059
1060Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/09/14 08:11
1061
1062If they were psychopaths, then what's holding them back from just declaring war directly? Clearly they wouldn't care what the US population thought of them. If they weren't *really* psychopaths, it would be stupid to want war, just because of how many important resources it takes away.
1063
1064==================================================
1065
1066hotdogeater1000			#LiLWHMJE 2017/09/14 09:18
1067
1068Also, if we increase NASA's budget, we could set up a helium mining colony on the moon, which would be helpful because that helium (specifically Helium-3) could be used to power some other machines, and it could be used for other things helium is used for.
1069
1070==================================================
1071
1072amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/09/14 10:01
1073
1074@TK
1075I dont really know what an EM drive is. Someone give me an ELI5?
1076
1077@hotdogeater
1078We're running out of He-3. Support.
1079
1080==================================================
1081
1082Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/09/14 10:32
1083
1084My understanding is that it's a copper cone that you bounce microwave radiation into and somehow that creates thrust; so it's a purely electric rocket.
1085
1086The first round of testing has been done and while nobody understands how exactly it works (this thing is in violation of Newton's Second Law by not throwing anything out the back end to move forward.) NASA was unable to prove it didn't work and so Russia and China have started on their own prototypes and if the mad science continues to pan out we're basically guaranteed several space-mines in the next few years.
1087
1088==================================================
1089
1090hotdogeater1000			#LiLWHMJE 2017/09/14 10:39
1091
1092Another great thing about a colony on the moon is we could launch rockets from the moon, which would be way easier as 1. you dont have to deal with an atmosphere and 2. lower gravity.
1093
1094==================================================
1095
1096amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/09/14 11:28
1097
1098@TK
1099Could we use that to generate energy? I would totally support this.
1100
1101@hotdogeater
1102You also have to launch stuff from earth to get to the moon, so it kinda defeats the point. Unless we get a fully selfsustaining moon colony, which will also need to get people there.
1103
1104==================================================
1105
1106U HAVE 2 VOTE!!!		#5mbMD9a9 2017/09/14 12:16
1107
1108How is this related to the Powder Games?
1109
1110==================================================
1111
1112Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/09/14 12:44
1113
1114I doubt it, by all reports, the thrust it generates is somewhat inefficient compared to standard jet propulsion. The important thing is that the EM drive doesn't need fuel to function, which means an EM drive vehicle design wouldn't be weighed down by fuel tanks and so would require less energy/material to launch and accelerate in a vacuum.
1115
1116==================================================
1117
1118Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/09/14 22:30
1119
1120@amazingdude
1121We send the materials to build a launch pad, rocket parts, etc. so that we can launch multiple rockets without having to worry about getting them there. By this time we should be able to deliver cargo to the moon relatively easily. I think we could probably do it without a permanent colony.
1122
1123==================================================
1124
11259132					#Nl3t12Mz 2017/09/14 23:39
1126
1127How much is an EM Drive? LoL.
1128
1129==================================================
1130
11314783937279458294		#bS1191YD 2017/09/15 06:02
1132
1133@9132
1134Shuffles through dusty files, "Let's see..., Ah! Would you like your EM drive new or used? If you buy two it comes with free two day shipping" 
1135
1136==================================================
1137
1138amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/09/15 08:20
1139
1140@TK
1141I was thinking thrust onto a turbine that collects energy, if it can get past the static friction. Get a sh,itload of these together and we'd have a steady source of power.
1142
1143@Draco
1144That seems feasible.
1145
1146==================================================
1147
1148skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/09/15 09:21
1149
1150Remember, there's no such thing as "free energy".
1151
1152==================================================
1153
1154amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/09/15 09:43
1155
1156@skyk
1157Remember that magnet engine a few months ago? There must be SOMETHING that can provide free energy.
1158
1159I never posted the great debate backup here, so I'll do so. I'll probably post it once a week, the idea is that the debate would be less lkely to be lost entirely if the backups contain other backups.
1160https://pastebin.com/0gwFRWk9
1161
1162==================================================
1163
1164Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/09/15 10:52
1165
1166@amazingdude
1167EM drives require a source of microwaves to function, and every test done has uses artificial microwaves from electricity and a portion of that function was naturally wasted as heat like every other reaction; so getting energy out of this is like piping some of the water from a watercooler to use as coolant, and then pouring the part that didn't evaporate back into the top of the cooler and claiming it creates water. It would only "generate" power if that microwave source was natural but there's probably better uses for natural microwaves than a windmill in space. (Spacemill?)
1168
1169==================================================
1170
1171Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/09/15 11:43
1172
1173@amazingdude
1174For an indefinite amount of time? Probably not, because of the laws of thermodynamics.
1175But if quantum mechanics can contradict Newton's Third Law, I suppose anything is possible.
1176
1177==================================================
1178
1179skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/09/15 23:23
1180
1181@AD
1182That magnet thing wouldn't work, and doesn't work. Many people have tried it. If it worked, we'd have been using it to power trains and carriages since the 1800s. There are many youtube videos of supposed magnet-based free energy generators, but these are either demonstrable hoaxes with hidden motors, or just devices no better than a wheel which would slow to a stop under any friction.
1183
1184The idea of free energy goes against the most basic concepts of entropy. At best, you can just increase the efficiency of energy generation, but some energy will always be lost. If you want to see compelling (but still impossible) ideas for perpetual motion devices, you should look to what actual physicists have designed as thought experiments, like the Brownian Ratchet.
1185
1186==================================================
1187
11889132					#Nl3t12Mz 2017/09/15 23:29
1189
1190Magnets use magnetical energy, so it isn't entirely "free". Using big enough magnets may work, Although you would need them as big as windmills.
1191
1192==================================================
1193
1194Omega16					#ThE7mUFZ 2017/09/16 02:24
1195
1196Actually, probably bigger than that in order to get any really noticeable effects.
1197
1198==================================================
1199
1200Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/09/16 07:36
1201
1202And contain it how?
1203
1204==================================================
1205
12064783937279458294		#bS1191YD 2017/09/16 09:04
1207
1208Let's see, the new argument is about perpetual motion? You got to be kidding me! Here's are new EM drive: water hits wheel, wheel turns and and brings it back up, well..., that isn't that just to good to be true. :)
1209
1210==================================================
1211
1212Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/09/16 09:45
1213
1214@4783937279458294
1215"EM drive" isn't code or whatever for something that generates energy, it's a potential fuel-less propulsion method for space travel that amazingdude thinks can be harnessed for energy.
1216
1217==================================================
1218
1219amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/09/16 11:23
1220
1221@TK
1222If you can provide infinite thrust, you can harvest the thrust to generate energy. Attatch it to a windmill or something.
1223But hey, we have fossil fuels to rely on for the next few centuries, and nuclear after that.
1224
1225@Skyk
1226I believe in perpetual motion. Yes, I do know about Newton's laws.
1227
1228==================================================
1229
1230skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/09/16 11:56
1231
1232you can't provide "infinite thrust". Any thrust the EM drive generates requires an input of electrical current, which will always be higher than the amount of current it could generate by harvesting the thrust. That's like plugging a flashlight into a solar panel and trying to get infinite energy by shining the light onto the panel. I absolutely cannot believe we're having this foolish argument again after physicists settled this literally hundreds of years ago.
1233
1234==================================================
1235
1236Madisonflame			#kdpeI8WM 2017/09/17 09:47
1237
1238....what's going up in here now?
1239
1240==================================================
1241
1242amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/09/17 11:53
1243
1244Oh wait, that machine DOES require electric input? I thought it just spontaneously generated microwaves which created thrust.
1245
1246==================================================
1247
1248hotdogeater1000			#LiLWHMJE 2017/09/17 12:14
1249
1250A good idea to get energy for that involves hydrogen, pressure, heat, and control mechanisms. We already harnessed the power of fusion for our destructive tendencies. Now we should harness it to produce energy... if we can.
1251
1252==================================================
1253
12544783937279458294		#bS1191YD 2017/09/17 12:55
1255
1256@Torture King
1257I have a better idea, lets have huge photon sails instead of EM drives. 
1258
1259==================================================
1260
1261Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/09/17 13:17
1262
1263Why not both? Solar sails don't have launching capability, EM drives are largely being hailed as the replacement for rockets.
1264
1265==================================================
1266
1267Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/09/18 00:00
1268
1269I've always wondered if there was a way to harness forces that pretty much existed no matter what, like a gravity-powered engine or something. We can apparently obtain solar energy, but it's not something to rely on.
1270
1271==================================================
1272
12734783937279458294		#bS1191YD 2017/09/18 01:12
1274
1275@Torture King
1276Well..., we should not forget to add a Warp drive. ;)
1277
1278==================================================
1279
1280skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/09/18 01:17
1281
1282@dracobot
1283Forces that act as a vector in both directions (gravity, tension, magnetism) are typically not feasible as sources of energy, because they take just as much energy to set up as they can maximally generate by reaching equilibrium, some of which is then lost when converting to electricity. If you wanted to harvest gravity, you'd need a source of high potential energy, like catching meteorites as they fall or something, which seems a lot less reliable than solar energy.
1284
1285==================================================
1286
1287Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/09/18 05:33
1288
1289AFAIK warp drives don't exist yet, the background science for folding space mechanically doesn't exist yet. Meanwhile, NASA just got done with the first round of tests for the EM drive and couldn't prove that it doesn't function as advertised- even if they're not quite sure how. (My bet is on the microwaves becoming particles at some point when they're not observed within the cone, thus having the mass to cause impact force and push the drive forward but becoming massless waves again before leaving and appearing to violate Newton's Second Law- or some other quantum mechanics bullshittery like that, every science even approaching that stuff sounds like handwaving for magic.)
1290
1291==================================================
1292
1293amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/09/18 13:21
1294
1295Why dont we give NASA more funding so we can develop a warp drive, EM drive, antimatter energy, etc.? For eveyr $1 we drop into NASA, our GDP gains $10 from technologies developed by NASA. The moon landing helped get us personal computers for example.
1296
1297==================================================
1298
1299Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/09/18 14:35
1300
1301Is there any possible way that we know of that bends space other than adding and taking away mass?
1302
1303==================================================
1304
13059132					#Nl3t12Mz 2017/09/18 23:14
1306
1307@Dracobot
1308There is wormholes, but they tear ships apart. They also allow time travel!
1309
1310==================================================
1311
1312skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/09/18 23:17
1313
1314We still don't know for sure that wormholes can allow for time travel, but it'd be pretty cool if that works someday. I actually have my own theories about time travel which could be a bit more feasible if the wormhole thing doesn't work out, but it would have its own restrictions.
1315
1316==================================================
1317
13189132 					#bmL0OYbZ 2017/09/19 01:46
1319
1320@skyk
1321It worked, but we can't control where we go or when we go. Also, if you watched the movie about wormholes, you may find specific clues about how they work. And Dracobot, thats how a wormhole works. It is a bend in space that you can travel through.
1322
1323==================================================
1324
1325Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/09/19 06:50
1326
1327I was under the impression that wormholes are just an explanation for black holes' supposedly infinite mass, when exactly did we find one outside of science fiction?
1328
1329I do remember CERN doing what ended up being a time-travel experiment, it involved a photon that they accelerated so fast in a circle that it randomly deflected off course. The best hypothesis at the time was that the photon was interfering with it's own past trajectory.
1330
1331==================================================
1332
1333Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/09/19 07:42
1334
1335@9132
1336Yes, I know about wormholes and understand how they work. But don't they involve mass in some way, like with black holes?
1337
1338==================================================
1339
13409132					#Nl3t12Mz 2017/09/20 00:13
1341
1342@Dracobot
1343Imagine a non-opened soda can. Lets say the soda can is a part of space. Now, if you see, if you crumble the pressurized soda can, it's smaller, but pressurized. And I do believe there is some mass in the wormhole that is kind of the more pressurized soda can.
1344
1345==================================================
1346
1347Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/09/21 10:57
1348
1349@9132
1350Possibly, but the only thing density affects in this circumstance is how spread out the force of gravity is.
1351
1352================================================== {Topic shift 4}
1353
1354hotdogeater1000			#LiLWHMJE 2017/09/23 06:47
1355
1356I am disappointed that there are still people that seriously believe the earth is flat.
1357
1358==================================================
1359
13604783937279458294		#bS1191YD 2017/09/23 08:56
1361
1362@hotdogeater1000
1363Duh..., did you think it was a cube. 
1364
1365==================================================
1366
1367Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/09/23 09:36
1368
1369In Poincaré space, the world is flat.
1370
1371==================================================
1372
1373Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/09/23 11:58
1374
1375https://i.imgur.com/OUuX5Ys.jpg
1376
1377{If the world were flat, cats would have pushed everything off it by now}
1378
1379==================================================
1380
1381amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/09/23 12:21
1382
1383Honestly most of the flat earthers are either trolls or mentally insane. Theres no way they can be serious.
1384
1385==================================================
1386
1387Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/09/23 23:07
1388
1389how do you know it's not flat?
1390
1391==================================================
1392
13939132					#Nl3t12Mz 2017/09/24 00:50
1394
1395@Minisheme
1396You are a fucking retard.
1397
1398==================================================
1399
14000b1111					#KIiGP8j5 2017/09/24 02:00
1401
1402@Minisheme
1403->Gravity going down instead of some point on Earth
1404->While somewhere is day, somewhere else is night
1405->Most flatearther use fake fact that doesn't make any sense.
1406
1407==================================================
1408
1409Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/09/24 02:04
1410
1411so? we don't even know how gravitons work. why would it not be possible for one area to be day and one area night on a flat earth? you can't disprove flat earth if left to your own devices.
1412
1413==================================================
1414
14159132					#Nl3t12Mz 2017/09/24 03:25
1416
1417Again, your retarded.
1418
1419==================================================
1420
1421Tyne and wear			#5GBDuOyX 2017/09/24 03:58
1422
1423For a second I thought there was a genuine flat-earther in the comments section and was readying my arguments and statistics. 
1424
1425==================================================
1426
1427hotdogeater1000			#LiLWHMJE 2017/09/24 06:18
1428
1429Did you know that the bolivian salt flats are actually so flat that you can (barely) see the roundness of the earth. If you took a well done picture, the middle and the left section would be a pixel or two away vertically
1430
1431==================================================
1432
1433Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/09/24 13:18
1434
1435"your retarded" nice one mate
1436
1437@tyne and wear
1438the merit of flat-earther stuff is that almost no one actually has a leg to stand on against them.
1439
1440==================================================
1441
1442Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/09/24 13:24
1443
1444@9132
1445You can't call someone stupid without providing a counter argument. That's basically what happened to Copernicus and anyone prior to the 20th century who believed in germs. (0b1111, close enough.)
1446
1447For all we know, the Earth could be flat. It could even be basin-shaped and everything that we've seen that provides evidence to a spherical Earth could be explained by other things such as our perception of the universe being completely incorrect. I was joking about the Poincaré space earlier, but as an example, the Earth could very well not be a sphere if space was non-Euclidean, which I believe it is even though the idea entirely contradicts how we perceive the universe.
1448
1449@hotdogeater1000
1450You mean Bonneville Salt Flats?
1451
1452==================================================
1453
14540b1111					#KIiGP8j5 2017/09/24 14:17
1455
1456@Minsheme
1457->Gravty works towards to object.
1458->If Earth would be flat sun will be on the up side of earth or down side of earth. Will not be able to be both.
1459
1460==================================================
1461
1462Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/09/24 14:31
1463
1464"works towards to object"? we don't know how gravitons transmit the force of gravity at a quantum level.
1465https://i.imgur.com/eyuUVdc.gif
1466
1467{So it happens that people believing in a flat Earth have an explanation for night and day occuring at the same time in different places on Earth. 
1468
1469According to some, the Sun doesn't shine in every direction, but is rather a kind of spot light hovering above us, and rotating around the North pole.. right. Like it's still in the sky at any time, but when you're not below it, then it's night. 
1470
1471Well I gave it a fair thought, because it would be unscientific not to. They have ad hoc explanations for a lot of objections you could make, that is they can refute points taken individually. The forums of Flat Earth Society is a treasure box of those ideas. 
1472
1473But it all boils down to this : none of them do any maths. There's never been in history a model of a flat Earth with equations that can account for movements in the sky, predict the position of planets, etc.. like the Round Earth supporters do. 
1474
1475For example in this diagram, what would be the radius of the Sun's rotation ? What would be the size of the area it can illuminate ? Those nice ideas have never been backed up with any verifiable numeric data. 
1476
1477So I guess I'll let myself brainwashed by NASA a while longer, as long as the mainstream model provides predictable events..}
1478
1479==================================================
1480
14810b1111					#KIiGP8j5 2017/09/24 16:11
1482
1483->we don't know what forces gravity at quantum level, but know at regular what forces gravity at regular level /*mass*/.
1484->The sun's light travel at almost 299,792,458 metres per second. That way light could not just stom at some point, sun and moon will both be always visible and night would not ever exist.
1485
1486==================================================
1487
1488Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/09/24 21:36
1489
1490that diagram does not show height of the sun or moon
1491
1492==================================================
1493
1494Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/09/24 22:00
1495
1496Quantum mechanics are rather irrelevant when you're talking about that much mass. There's a reason nobody noticed them until long after neutron microscopes were invented.
1497
1498Also, what's underneath the Earth then? The rotting corpse of a primordial giant? An endless tower of tortoises? Half-Life 3?
1499
1500==================================================
1501
1502danstroyer				#eGPLCtF1 2017/09/24 22:17
1503
1504y r we talking about gravity?
1505
1506==================================================
1507
1508Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/09/24 22:45
1509
1510quantum physics doesn't always mean "crazy ambiguous magic that allows anything to happen". every type of force has a corresponding particle that transmits that force, we don't know how this works with gravity/gravitons.
1511
1512==================================================
1513
1514Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/09/25 00:11
1515
1516And besides, the sun may be above us, but *appear* to be going past the horizon at sunset. Space may be curved in the form of a dome above us, causing light to bend back and miss us. If we traveled in a straight line to a seemingly random point in space at night, we might eventually reach an area near the sun because of the way space is bent (not to the sun because if that were the case, light would reach us, but I'm assuming nothing else isn't bending the light as well).
1517
1518==================================================
1519
1520hotdogeater1000			#LiLWHMJE 2017/09/25 07:57
1521
1522@AD {Dracobot}
1523Nope, bolivian salt flats, or as they know it, Salar de Uyuni.
1524
1525==================================================
1526
15270b1111					#KIiGP8j5 2017/09/25 14:57
1528
1529@Minsheme
1530->quantum physics doesn't always mean "crazy ambiguous magic that allows anything to happen",but means "crazy theory that explains the world in lots of formulas"
1531->We still know that mass forces gravity, and scientists know more than we.
1532->The sun's light travel at almost 299,792,458 metres per second. That way light could not just stop at some point, sun and moon will both be always visible and night would not ever exist TO ANY FINITE HEIGHT. More height will mean that we will wait more to light comes to Earth, but not that whole planet will not be lighted up.
1533
1534explanation "TO ANY FINITE HEIGHT"
1535->As absolute impossiblillity to height be infinie, as our universe is finite /*Otherwise it couldn't grow and extend*/ logically height would be finite.
1536
1537==================================================
1538
15399132					#YzWLU8MF 2017/09/26 00:50
1540
1541@Dracobot
1542How would the earth sustain water if it was flat? Also, the earth would have two sides. Also, water would just run off.
1543
1544==================================================
1545
1546herecomesmichael		#68cDLTHg 2017/09/26 01:50
1547
1548to everyone talking about a flat earth: it's super easy to disprove. if you went to the south pole (which would be the ""edge"" of the earth) and moved around, you would fly around the edge like crazy. also, how would you be able to walk /through/ the south pole? that would have to be some sort of Portal-type science because you would just fall off the edge!
1549
1550also what would be on the other side of the earth??? (i know @TK already said this but i want to emphasize it) really! would it be like, hel? or would it be some alternate world exactly like ours??????
1551
1552all in all, flat-earthers honestly don't know what they're talking about. i rest my case.
1553
1554==================================================
1555
1556Vidkunssonn				#6gkHelVa 2017/09/26 07:31
1557
1558Jesus Christ, you guys are actually discussing this?
1559Ahhh, I guess I have to participate..
1560
1561https://pastebin.com/q5GREHby {https://pastebin.com/17yzXVHV}
1562
1563Despite the bizzarre idea, there actually is some pretty logical reasoning behind believing the earth flat (SOME). I myself do believe that the earth is a spherical shape.
1564 
1565The first thing we need to discuss is how to calculate the curvature of the earth.
1566"Using the theorem of Pythagoras a2 = 39632 + 12 = 15705370 and thus a = 3963.000126 miles. Thus your position is 3963.000126 - 3963 = 0.000126 miles above the surface of the earth. 0.000126 miles = 1252800.000126 = 7.98 inches. Hence the earth's surface curves approximately 8 inches in one mile."
1567So, the earth curves 8" per mile squared. Chart for reference: http://www.smokescreendesign.com/images/earth-curve-calcuation.jpg
1568 
1569Let's take a look at some examples of really tall structures that are really far away that can be seen.
1570 
1571This is a picture of the Chicago Skyline taken from across the lake: http://i.imgur.com/2sbFc9N.jpg
1572The distance between from where the picture was taken and the base of the Willis Tower (the really tall one) itself is a little more than 50 miles.
1573To calculate exactly how much of the building should be covered by the earth itself, we use the formula above:
1574 
1575    8" * (50^2) = 20000" = 1666+(2/3)'
1576 
1577The height of the building itself is about 1400', so by logic, the earth would cover it up entirely, right?
1578 
1579False, because of my little friend Light Refraction (this is where the logical reason supporting flat-earth stops):
1580    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_refraction
1581
1582In short, light will travel in a straight line for a certain distance before it starts to droop downward due to gravity, temperature, air pressure, and a few other things, so the light "droops" around the curvature of the earth so we can see things further away. This bit of science causes distortions in the light, which is why the buildings in the picture are kinda blurry. There's some MAJOR distortion in this picture:
1583    http://www.asterism.org/images/atmo07.jpg
1584
1585because the light image is going through a LOT more atphosphere than the light coming from the buildings in the other picture, so it's being affected by gravity, air particles, etc. much more, creating a more distorted image. This evidence has been supported many times by this experiment:
1586    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedford_Level_experiment
1587
1588However, it has been used to support both round-earth and flat-earth, so take it as you will.
1589
1590==================================================
1591
15924783937279458294		#bS1191YD 2017/09/26 09:25
1593
1594Well..., it's a very common principal that the earth is a cube.
1595
1596==================================================
1597
1598U HAVE 2 VOTE!!!		#oivMsWIR 2017/09/26 10:10
1599
1600What the #@#$@$@#$@#@$@#$#@$@ are you commenting about the Powder Game 2 comment board is not for posting whatever you want
1601
1602==================================================
1603
1604OwenDaPanda				#VYQpyVtv 2017/09/26 11:07
1605
1606What word is that long uh2v?
1607Also, no one care about the fact that it is RECOMMENDED that you should post about pg2 stuff
1608
1609==================================================
1610
1611Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/09/26 12:49
1612
1613lol, 0b111, the reason I mentioned height is that the moon would block the sun's light over part of the earth. they rotate and you get night and day.
1614
1615==================================================
1616
1617Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/09/26 12:52
1618
1619@herecomesmichael
1620no one can attest to travelling to where the "edges" would be and all the way around (i.e. south pole or north pole like you said, or middle of the pacific, wherever it may be)
1621
1622also, there are many anomalies of travel when people are in landscapes such as oceans or tundra -- commonly, they end up travelling in a circle if they don't know where they're going, even if they're trying to go in a straight line.
1623
1624==================================================
1625
1626Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/09/26 13:01
1627
1628https://pastebin.com/7JeUNi4x
1629
1630The curvature of space plays a huge part in this theory, so you'll hear it a lot in this post. If you ever doubt me in any of it, take a topology class.
1631
1632@0b1111
1633The universe is (probably) a 4-sphere; infinite height may be perfectly possible.
1634
1635@9132
1636What herecomesmichael said. You would fly around the edge like crazy because that is how space is bent. If you went there, it would all appear connected like normal because of that, and since it appears normal from a Euclidean viewpoint nothing can ever "fall off of" the Earth (the molecules are resting on each other).
1637
1638The Earth doesn't have two sides from this theory (I guess it technically does, but the underside is dome-shaped). It's the way space is bent: straight lines going through the Earth appear to arc and come out (on the same side) a distance from the input exactly equal to the radius (to visualize this, imagine a line coming into a point that represents the South Pole and going out at the North Pole, and you can move this line however you want, as long as it passes over the North Pole at some point). Many models are possible, but this is one of the easiest to understand.
1639
1640@herecomesmichael
1641Not quite. There is a vertical *geometric line* (a space of literally 0 width) at the South Pole in the theory. It is impossible for anything to occupy that space, so nothing would escape the space that way.
1642
1643"Off of the edge of Earth" is actually (due to the way space is curved) directly above the South Pole. Remember that dome-above-the-Earth model I mentioned earlier? It extends down "around" the sides of the Earth.
1644
1645@4783937279458294
1646If gravity and space were cubic to compensate, this could be true.
1647
1648==================================================
1649
1650Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/09/26 13:16
1651
1652I just realized: is UH2V really stixx44 who came back more sane?
1653
1654==================================================
1655
1656amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/09/26 14:34
1657
1658So the earth is essentially a 4d flat plane? Perhaps we're living on the 3d surface of a 4d shape. This shit is beyond me.
1659
1660==================================================
1661
16620b1111					#KIiGP8j5 2017/09/26 14:35
1663
1664@Minsheme
1665when moon block sun's light it is not night but solar eclipse. Also sun/moon would not be on Earth`s horizon. also Earth can block sun's light to moon and that is why moon is sometimes all blank.
1666
1667==================================================
1668
1669Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/09/26 22:25
1670
1671The Earth's "horizon" is a small circle around your location. And a lunar eclipse is possible when the sun is above one side while the moon is above the other, equidistant from the equator (the concentric circle halfway between the North and South Poles) on the other side of it.
1672
1673Though the moon isn't invisible during a total lunar eclipse. It takes on a reddish hue.
1674
1675==================================================
1676
1677what					#qIxfI5th 2017/09/27 01:57
1678
1679cmon dudes, lets set aside our differences and enjoy the beauty that is Powder Gameâ„¢
1680
1681==================================================
1682
1683Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/09/27 05:26
1684
1685okay I am out of arguments for flat earth good chat brothas
1686
1687==================================================
1688
1689Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/09/27 07:57
1690
1691Yeah, I wasn't sure where you were going with the eclipse=nighttime argument.
1692
1693==================================================
1694
1695Vidkunssonn				#6gkHelVa 2017/09/27 08:22
1696
1697@Dracobot
1698http://i.xomf.com/qfysf.png
1699
1700==================================================
1701
1702COMMENT BOT				#h3LXayCp 2017/09/27 11:57
1703
1704i want to make any possible for the earth then the flat earth good chat brothas. 
1705
1706==================================================
1707
1708Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/09/27 13:19
1709
1710@Vidkunssonn
1711See comment 2017/09/25 00:11.
1712
1713{And besides, the sun may be above us, but *appear* to be going past the horizon at sunset. Space may be curved in the form of a dome above us, causing light to bend back and miss us. If we traveled in a straight line to a seemingly random point in space at night, we might eventually reach an area near the sun because of the way space is bent (not to the sun because if that were the case, light would reach us, but I'm assuming nothing else isn't bending the light as well).}
1714
1715==================================================
1716
1717Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/09/27 13:39
1718
1719@dracobot
1720I never really implied that an eclipse would cause night, it was bad wording maybe. the sun and moon would have to be at very different heights if the earth was literally a flat plain like people assume is the only option.
1721
1722==================================================
1723
1724Vidkunssonn				#6gkHelVa 2017/09/27 20:01
1725
1726http://i.xomf.com/czmgc.png
1727
1728==================================================
1729
1730Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/09/28 09:58
1731
1732@Vidkunssonn
1733Bending the wrong way. Just because light extends in all directions doesn't mean any directions lead to the observer.
1734
1735Wait, I take that back. That is the correct way space would be bent. But my second point still stands.
1736
1737==================================================
1738
1739amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/10/02 12:45
1740
1741https://pastebin.com/cGxGHpG8
1742Sorry im a bit late, I had surgery recently. Thats just another debate archive btw
1743
1744==================================================
1745
1746amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/10/03 15:07
1747
1748so it seems the debate is actually dead, for real this time.
1749Twas a fun time.
1750
1751================================================== {Topic shift 5}
1752
1753amazingdude						  2017/10/05 02:20
1754
1755Lets talk about date formats. ISO8601 best format (YYYY-MM-DD)
1756
1757==================================================
1758
1759nobody					#nf4Fsixs 2017/10/05 12:27
1760
1761please don't start another debate, I beg of you. 
1762
1763==================================================
1764
1765amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/10/05 14:00
1766
1767We're trying to break the record of 8 years.
1768Technically only 4 because the middle of the debate went missing and we only have the last 4 years and the first few months. We cannot prove that they arent 2 seperate debates. While I do believe TK's statement of 8 years, its one of those things that you just cant prove. (Which is why I'm backing up this debate!)
1769
1770==================================================
1771
17729132					#Nl3t12Mz 2017/10/05 23:45
1773
1774@amazingdude
1775Date Formats? END ME
1776
1777==================================================
1778
1779Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/10/06 01:15
1780
1781I think kyoto had another one, but he doesn't stick around very much since shipping out to Afghanistan for me to politely ask about it.
1782
1783==================================================
1784
1785hotdogeater1000			#LiLWHMJE 2017/10/06 08:45
1786
1787Although its not entirely clear, there is actually some sense in MM/DD/YYYY. Month can have a max number of 12 (if you are using the standard 12 month calendar). Day can have a max value of 31. Year can have up to infinity, although it will never get up to infinity as a result of the inevitable heat death of the universe in which nothing will ever change, again, and the universe will be a dark place, a very dark place with some particles here and there. Although, DD/MM/YYYY or YYYY/MM/DD kinda make more sense.
1788
1789==================================================
1790
1791Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/10/06 09:41
1792
1793By that logic, YY/MM/DD/YY is the superior format because the first two digits of the year will likely only go up to 30 or so before we restart the calendar in commemoration of a unified world government or something while the last two go up to 99.
1794
1795==================================================
1796
1797U HAVE 2 VOTE!!!		#oivMsWIR 2017/10/06 10:19
1798
1799Thanks for 1K votes total and WHY ARE YOU COMMENTING ABOUT DATE FORMATS???
1800
1801==================================================
1802
1803Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/10/06 11:54
1804
1805Why are you not?
1806
1807==================================================
1808
1809U HAVE 2 VOTE!!!		#oivMsWIR 2017/10/06 12:16
1810
1811BECAUSE THAT'S NOT POWDER GAME 2 OR DAN-BALL RELATED.
1812
1813==================================================
1814
1815Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/10/06 12:20
1816
1817@hotdogeater1000
1818I feel like you're trying to tell us something most people would feel bad about to get the same reaction from us and make you look cooler by appearing to us as if you don't care about this fact and/or know about it even though the mere attempt of such an action and said action's revelation by me to the other inhabitants of the Comment Boards only make you appear rather less cool in our eyes but we choose not to respond about it or care because there is no point to address such a trivial error from someone so you take away from the situation the misconception that we were affected by your comment in a way that made us feel inferior to you which make you feel superior to them even though apparently unbeknownst to you we are fully aware of the fact that you just presented and the meaning behind it and your feelings of superiority are thus rendered meaningless so everyone and the circumstances as a whole would have benefited more had you not posted that addendum to your participation in the current discussion.
1819
1820WELL IT WORKED!!! :'(
1821
1822Also, I think it's because it reflects the typical formal way of writing the date: Month D, Year.
1823
1824==================================================
1825
1826amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/10/06 12:48
1827
1828https://pastebin.com/R4p17hSS
1829
1830Todays date in DD-MM-YYYY: 06-10-2017
1831Todays date in MM-DD-YYYY: 10-06-2017
1832Todays date in YYYY-MM-DD: 2017-10-06
1833 
1834@TK
1835 
1836I guess you can try to google it and maybe find the pastebin. Besides, he may not even have it anymore.
1837 
1838@hotdogeater
1839 
1840While I dont like MM-DD-YYYY, I absolutely HATE DD-MM-YYYY. It makes no sense written out in numerical form. Sure, smallest to biggest, right? Well, not really. Take todays date: 2017-10-06. If it was REALLY smallest to biggest, it would be 60-01-7102, which makes zero sense. You can't arrange numbers (which are written in descending order) in ascending order. It just doesnt make sense from a mathematical perspective.
1841 
1842Imagine it this way: Each chunk of the date is a number, written in descending order. When you go from the 6 to the 1, you are going from the 1 day digit (6) to the 10 month digit (1). Again, going from the 1 month digit (0) to the 1000 year digit (2). This is 2 interruptions. It's not just a smooth flow upwards, as you arent going to the next significant digit: You are skipping around.
1843 
1844"Well, is MM-DD-YYYY any better?" Well, yeah! It's got only one break (10 days digit (6) to the 1000 year digit (2). It conveniently divides the date in half into two descending streams. The time of the year, and the year itself. While not as good as YYYY-MM-DD, it sure as hell is better than DD-MM-YYYY.
1845 
1846"But the day is the most important part!" Well, not really. "The sixth". Sixth of what? October 2017? January 1472? The day tells you NOTHING about when something happened. Neither does having the month first, but its less shitty. The year provides when an event happened in history. "But its not useful for common use!" Why do we need two seperate formats for common and professional use? After all, we don't need to keep saying "twenty" in front of the year, because that wont change for 83 years. Let's say 1720 instead!
1847 
1848The previous 2 paragraphs probably didnt make sense to anyone, but its how I think. This shitty MSpaint should help a bit: https://i.imgur.com/dVWdSMr.png
1849 
1850Another reason is for consistency. TK's comment wasnt written on 41:09. 1 million is not 000,000,1. Today shouldnt be 06-10-2017. Write it like we write everything else involving numbers, 2017-10-06. Don't get me started on sorting.
1851 
1852This always gets misinterpreted as defending MM-DD-YYYY. I'm not defending this outdated (heh) date format. It's almost as bad as DD-MM-YYYY. Both formats need to be replaced with the international date standard.
1853 
1854Another analogy would be dividing the year up. YYYY-MM-DD is 2017, MM-DD-YYYY is 1720, and DD-MM-YYYY is 7120. Or, HGFE-DC-BA, BA-DC-HGFE, vs DC-BA-HGFE.I hope you can see why I feel this way. I'm sorry if it feels ranty, but I have very strong feelings on this.
1855 
1856https://i.imgur.com/At3sqEo.png
1857https://i.imgur.com/s4D0Z9N.png
1858https://i.imgur.com/iSFyZDd.png
1859
1860@Uh2v
1861What else can we talk about?
1862
1863==================================================
1864
1865U HAVE 2 VOTE!!!		#oivMsWIR 2017/10/06 14:11
1866
1867if you can't think of anything to talk about other than random stuff, then just don't post at all. :/
1868
1869==================================================
1870
1871Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/10/06 22:37
1872
1873@amazingdude
1874What? I don't think he meant *literally* write it backwards.
1875
1876==================================================
1877
1878Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/10/06 22:48
1879
1880@UH2V
1881If the admins didn't like polite off-topic discussion in the comment boards they would have cracked down on it years ago. You're not the boss of anyone here, and the more you harp on about this the less anyone is going to value your opinions on other subjects.
1882
1883==================================================
1884
1885amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/10/09 08:03
1886
1887@Uh2v
1888I can post whatever I want. Everyone here is alright with it. This game is pretty much dead. There's nothing to talk about thats not asking for votes.
1889
1890@Dracobot
1891I was providing evidence that DD-MM-YYYY isnt truly ascending order.
1892
1893================================================== {Topic shift 6}
1894
1895Nepaterut				#Z5lByTDx 2017/10/09 09:29
1896
1897The earth is flat, and climate change is not real. NASA's been lying to yo guys.
1898
1899==================================================
1900
1901Jeffery					#eBoA4gmv 2017/10/09 12:26
1902
1903Nepaterut is wrong. The earth is a cube. Why are most world maps rectangular? They are stretching the cubic earth to fit on a wall, which is also why the poles are squished on maps: The top face of a cube must be squished in order to fit on a wall.
1904
1905Also, we can clearly tell because objects disappear beyond the horizon. If the earth was spherical or flat, they wouldnt disappear after a certain distance. What would it disappear behind?
1906
1907A cubic earth is the only reasonable explanation to many natural events, like time zones, seasons etc
1908
1909==================================================
1910
1911Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/10/09 14:24
1912
1913@amazingdude
1914An ordering of numbers is concerned with a set of numbers, not the digits themselves.
1915
1916==================================================
1917
1918Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/10/09 18:24
1919
1920There's more than 4 time zones though, for 24* timezones you'd need at least a prismic icositetragon. (totally googled that word, btw)
1921
1922*Physical timezones anyway, if you want a shape to have natural formations accounting for otherwise political phenomena like China running on it's own time then the geometry would get a bit complicated than a wannabe cylinder.
1923
1924==================================================
1925
1926amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/10/10 01:19
1927
1928@Nepaterut
1929Been there, done that. Read the last 4 month of the debate.
1930
1931@Jeffery
1932Are you fucking retarded? Even if the earth was a cube, gravity would collapse it back into a sphere. Everything you just said can be explained by a spherical earth. At least its more plausible than flat earth.
1933
1934@Draco
1935For some reason to me, it just seems wrong to order sets of numbers, which are descending, in ascending order. A date is made up of 3 sets of numbers. Each set itself is in descending order. You can order the sets any way you want, but it makes the most sense to order the whole date in descending order, because the parts of it are.
1936
1937==================================================
1938
1939βBETA					#nf4Fsixs 2017/10/10 04:34
1940
1941Why! HP, did you have to make cheesy injection molded screw holds that bust after seven years, I've had to hold up the screen with my hands due to the fact that the joints I reinforced with metal have snapped because of these cheesy injection molded screw holds. Microsoft, why in the world have you kept on asking me to "upgrade" my windows 7 to windows 10 and keep on doing it every 5 seconds of the living existence of me and this computer, now due to absence of screw holds I've had to hold up my computer screen with my right hand and type with my left, seriously just why. 
1942
1943==================================================
1944
1945Σsigma					#dGUQeyap 2017/10/10 07:58
1946
1947@amazingdude
1948Assuming gravity is a spherical force.
1949
1950Well, considering base-10 is just a representation of quantities, that should never be the case.
1951
1952@βBETA
1953The same thing happened to my computer (also 7-years old, coincidentally), only Microsoft eventually made it automatically update with the only way to stop it being an obscure window that opened behind my existing windows.
1954 
1955And by that I mean it updated and now I have Windows 10. But don't give up hope! Keep fighting! Be the one that wins against Microsoft!
1956
1957==================================================
1958
1959Vidkunssonn				#6gkHelVa 2017/10/10 08:07
1960
1961@Jeffery
1962>Why are most world maps rectangular?
1963https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/351448593690918924/367085622961242133/20171009_180642.jpg
1964
1965{Spider/cut up world map}
1966
1967I showed that pic to someone on a Discord guild and they responded "The earth is a spider with Down's syndrome"
1968
1969==================================================
1970
1971Jeffery					#cpWZHvVg 2017/10/10 11:30
1972
1973There are only 4 time zones, the government is lying to you.
1974
1975Gravity works in cubes. Objects are naturally drawn together as cubes. I specifically said that you cannot explain this shart with a spherical earth. Also, wouldnt we just slide off the spherical earth and fall into space? Even if we dont fall into space, we wouldnt be able to stand because it would be round.
1976
1977Nice spherical earth propaganda, vidkunson
1978
1979==================================================
1980
1981amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/10/10 14:39
1982
1983https://pastebin.com/mLRScjgw
1984
1985@Beta
1986Fuck that shit. Fuck forced updates in general.
1987 
1988@Esigma, Jeffery
1989Gravity is spherical. Every point on the surface of a sphere is equidistant to the center, compared to a cube, where the corners are further from the center than the middle of the faces. The matter on the corners would eventually be drawn to the faces because of this difference in distance, resulting in the object becoming more and more spherical over time.
1990 
1991The whole idea of gravity working in cubes is probably the dumbest thing ive heard. At least manmade global warming makes SOME sense (yet its still wrong). Gravity keeps you on the spherical earth.
1992 
1993Honestly I dont know how this dude can be serious.
1994 
1995@Vidkunssonn
1996I hate spider maps like those. They just..... no.
1997
1998==================================================
1999
2000hotdogeater1000			#LiLWHMJE 2017/10/11 10:36
2001
2002Well, California is on fire.
2003
2004==================================================
2005
2006amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/10/11 11:44
2007
2008@Hotdogeater
2009https://i.imgur.com/ulP90gA.jpg
2010More pics upon request
2011
2012==================================================
2013
2014Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/10/12 04:06
2015
2016@amazingdude 
2017got any that contain flames?
2018
2019==================================================
2020
2021βBETA					#nf4Fsixs 2017/10/12 06:50
2022
2023In the part of California i'm in you can't see 3 feet in front you because of the smoke that has seemingly engulfed the entirety of the Bay Area.
2024inside it's no problem and i'm quite far from the actual fire so it was more of a exaggeration, but still you can smell it.
2025
2026==================================================
2027
2028dude					#YaahGxaG 2017/10/12 12:40
2029
2030looks like we had the wrong redit account for AD.
2031u/Rebel_Scum83 seems to be the real one, as he just posted a meme about PG in r/teenagers
2032
2033==================================================
2034
2035Jeffery					#405emkSl 2017/10/13 11:58
2036
2037Stop lying to people. Earth is a cube.
2038
2039==================================================
2040
2041βBETA					#nf4Fsixs 2017/10/13 12:28
2042
2043@Jeffery
2044dude...
2045
2046==================================================
2047
2048Jeffery					#ZmjIYd7P 2017/10/13 13:55
2049
2050Umm, because it IS a cube? Look at world maps. Do you see a circle? NO, its a rectngle, which you get from unwrapping a cube, dumbas!
2051
2052==================================================
2053
20540b1111					#KIiGP8j5 2017/10/13 14:10
2055
2056@Jeffery
2057The world maps are rectangle to be easy to print them. There are also globes that show how Earth really looks like.
2058
2059==================================================
2060
2061skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/10/14 04:34
2062
2063Is everyone missing the obvious problem that you don't get rectangles by unwrapping cubes?
2064
2065==================================================
2066
2067hotdogeater1000			#LiLWHMJE 2017/10/14 07:23
2068
2069Yeah when you unwrap cubes, you get a cross. Also, theres quite a few maps that are actually ovals.
2070
2071==================================================
2072
2073amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/10/14 07:38
2074
2075@Skyk
2076I think hes doing this https://i.imgur.com/mcrCf8S.png
2077
2078Even if that was true, there would be triangular distortions on the poles.
2079How does a cubic earth explain oval maps?
2080
2081==================================================
2082
2083MidnightMonster			#VfijhzSI 2017/10/14 07:58
2084
2085I just want to know, why is there always arguing over what shape the Earth is?
2086
2087==================================================
2088
2089Jeffery					#L5YsAJw6 2017/10/14 15:40
2090
2091@Amazing
2092thats pretty much what I was trying to explain.
2093oval maps are a result of uneven spreading of the top and bottom faces across the whole rectangular map, making it appear ovular.
2094
2095==================================================
2096
20970b1111					#KIiGP8j5 2017/10/14 18:44
2098
2099@Jeffery
2100->So if Earth is cube, why globes are balls?
2101->Why all planets are balls or whatever round and Earth is cube?
2102
2103==================================================
2104
2105amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/10/15 04:14
2106
2107I explained earlier how a cubic planet will eventually collapse into an oblate spheroid. Even if one did exist, it wouldnt remain cubic for long due to asteroids and space weathering.
2108
2109==================================================
2110
2111Jeffery					#EddG4j3y 2017/10/15 17:04
2112
2113look i dont care if gravity makes things spherical or if world maps dont make sense, but the earth is a cube. its just that. i flew my drone into space and recorded video of the cubic earth
2114
2115==================================================
2116
21170b1111					#KIiGP8j5 2017/10/15 20:00
2118
2119@Jeffery
2120->You flied your drone in space. How you amplified signal long enought to it lasts up to space?
2121
2122==================================================
2123
2124amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/10/16 06:56
2125
2126So jeffery you basically deny all the science and just reply with "The earth is a cube. It just is." He's gotta be trolling.
2127
2128================================================== {Topic shift 7}
2129
2130卐卐14ϟϟ88卐卐				#Q8zWCcgu 2017/10/17 15:00
2131
2132Sieg Heil! Aryan master race! Heil hitler!
2133
2134==================================================
2135
2136The_Leviathan			#dy5l8n9X 2017/10/17 21:27
2137
2138uh...
2139
2140==================================================
2141
2142amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/10/18 07:26
2143
2144lets talk about climate change again!
2145
2146==================================================
2147
2148Vidkunssonn				#6gkHelVa 2017/10/18 11:04
2149
2150＠卐卐14ϟϟ88卐卐
2151Get a life you piece of shit
2152
2153==================================================
2154
2155U HAVE 2 VOTE!!!		#oivMsWIR 2017/10/18 12:14
2156
2157@Vidkunssonn
2158STOP POSTING SWEAR WORDS LIKE SHIT AND STUFF
2159
2160==================================================
2161
2162卐卐14ϟϟ88卐卐				#haSNizPU 2017/10/18 14:50
2163
2164White Power! The white man will once again return to superiority over his brown minions! Sieg Heil!
2165
2166End white genocide. Stop mass migration into white countries. "Diversity" is code word for anti white. DO NOT LET THE SUPERIOR ARYAN MASTER RACE GO EXTINCT!!!
2167
2168discord.gg/cpZ7VFx {???????????}
2169
2170==================================================
2171
2172The_Leviathan			#dy5l8n9X 2017/10/18 22:48
2173
2174@ 卐卐14ϟϟ88卐卐 you wanna have a bad time? Cause if take ONE step forward, you are REALLY NOT GONNA like what happens next!
2175
2176==================================================
2177
2178Tyne and wear			#5GBDuOyX 2017/10/19 02:26
2179
2180@卐卐14ϟϟ88卐卐
2181Lol yur race is fucked
2182
2183==================================================
2184
2185Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/10/19 06:04
2186
2187
2188I think you're confused. You're thinking that these races are the same:
21891. White people.
21902. White people who genuinely believe that race is a measurement of superiority.
2191
2192Pop quiz: Which of these two is actually dying out? (Hint: it's 2.)
2193
2194By the way, you sound like such an idiot when you say something like "'Diversity' is code word for anti white." At least troll with a little bit of effort; then it will be somewhat realistic.
2195
2196==================================================
2197
2198danstroyer				#4PtlYql6 2017/10/19 07:08
2199
2200. . . . . ummm . . . .
2201
2202==================================================
2203
2204Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/10/19 07:23
2205
2206About white supremacy: https://pastebin.com/3jBAQH6M
2207
2208@Draco
2209Group 2 is growing extremely quickly. If the left keep pushing as hard as they are, "white supremacy" will only get bigger. It's flourishing every day. However, what constitutes things now deemed "white supremacy", who knows. Whites are more suited to exist in western civilisation, other races have done nothing but obstruct it. Doesn't mean I have anything against non-whites. If Eastern Asia were put in the hands of whites, it would be a sh.itshow.
2210 
2211I believe this while simultaneously thinking that whites are a suicidally ingenuous race who are bringing about their own downfall. Hopefully, there will be an antifragile process from migration crises which will fix that, instead of two sides inching towards extremes then being pitted against each other.
2212 
2213Notice how one of the first responses to nazism is "lol ur race is f.ucked XD". Great stuff. Enjoy the race war.
2214
2215Here's an appeal to nationalism that anyone can understand. If you aren't familiar with a prisoner's dilemma, look that up. Now, let's call the GTO (game theory optimal) route the selfish route. The "selfless" routes in life, i.e. the things advertised as "compassionate", "moral" e.g. America is supposed to help Puerto Rico for some arbitrary reason (It's geographically convenient or something, idk). For one, this not only relies on human nature being cooperative/loving, it relies on the state ensuring that "good" human nature - something they get to define. If you trust in that you are basically screaming to me how your government loves you and you would put your life in their hands. Second, every time you or your country collectively decide to bend over to help someone else (like Puerto Rico), EVERY OTHER ENTITY who decided not to bend over as well BY CHOICE (the GTO decision) has gotten a step closer to an upper hand on you.
2216
2217Human nature is selfish. View people like a macroorganism. Everything that can be taken to get ahead will be. If some superpowerful continent emerged out of nowhere and could take us all on for a net benefit, assume that it would, or you're praying for benevolent leaders to have your interest in mind.
2218
2219What was the only way that humans have ever overcame this? MAD - Mutually Assured Destruction. Being at each other's throats is all human macroorganisms understand.
2220
2221==================================================
2222
2223amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/10/19 07:50
2224
2225https://pastebin.com/WGjWCRSs
2226
2227I wont be surprised if the KKK or some other neonazi group rises in the next few years. Hell, they're probably organizing right not on the deep web. Normal white people are getting tired of being labeled as the villain by the alt left. My class was CHEERING when my professor mentioned white people will be a minority by 2042. As a white man, I am disgusted by this. It's not that I hate diversity, it's that they were happy there will be less white people in the future. By making white people feel excluded from society, the left is facilitating the growth of white supremacist groups, as white people are now seeking acceptance from a society that rejected and demonized them.
2228 
2229Maybe this is extreme, but I'm from the left coast. Liberal trash everywhere.
2230 
2231I should also state that The alt right cannot exist without the alt left.
2232 
2233@Draco
2234Group 1 is not changing, group 2 is exploding.
2235
2236==================================================
2237
2238Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/10/19 14:02
2239
2240I only said that to attack his claim. I didn't actually put much thought into it. In retrospect, it was more wishful thinking than anything, but of course now that the white supremacists have a leader--whether he ACTUALLY WANTS to be or not--their group will expand rapidly, and anyone who regularly watches the news will find this obvious.
2241
2242@amazingdude
2243What's wrong with being a minority? I mean obviously no one would choose to be subject to discrimination from the majority, but if we assume this doesn't happen (which it probably will, but such is an imperfection of humans in general), being a certain race doesn't matter even from a social point of view unless you feel some sort of unnecessary pride for being a member of the race, but that's the stupid idea that's fueling supremacy.
2244
2245==================================================
2246
2247amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/10/19 14:09
2248
2249I wasnt talking about not wanting to be a minority, I was using it as an example of attacks on white people. To me, it seemed like the class wanted that specific group of people to be gone, which is racism. I dont really care whether or not I'm a minority. Maybe I am a bit biased, but nobody should be happy that a group of people is declining in population.
2250
2251Replace white people with any other group in that scenario and it would be considered racist. Why is it OK to cheer for a declining white population, but not a declining black, latino, or whatever population? I was angry at the fact the class wanted there to be less white people in the US, not the fact that I will be a minority in 30 years.
2252
2253==================================================
2254
2255Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/10/19 20:46
2256
2257I miss uncensoredbot https://pastebin.com/DAwpSDHQ
2258
2259It's basically an assault on whites and our culture, but I always think it's a bad idea to blame malevolence, so I say whites are responsible for allowing this assault and need to change something. However, the cultural fruits of our lives are pretty much inextricable the white race. People don't seem to realise that culture means "the arts and other manifestations of human intellectual achievement regarded collectively".
2260 
2261Again about human nature, we are still 50% animal and no one wants to see their race die. We also have a drive towards identity, which is part of nature that we see manifested in society, though it's a no-no for white identity. Some of our nature will play out unstoppably, indifferently to our will; it does't mean things caused by that nature are righteous. I.e. every human being is inherently "racist", if we're going to evolve past that then we need to embrace that and deal with it instead of suppressing it and treating it like it's abnormal.
2262
2263We weren't ready to have a "multicultural" civilisation. Whites are not only threatened by becoming a minority, but because mass immigration has been a farce. The only possible scenario that can come of this is a group of white elites practically enslaving everyone else, or a racially charged war. I'm not saying this because I wish for it, it's just highly likely. 2000 years of blood and tears went into white culture; some youngsters might toss it away but I can guarantee you there is already a white elite ready to guard it just like how Jews manage to have their own ethnostate and a rich, secured culture while being 0.002% of the world.
2264 
2265If the first world does stay multiracial, then we can't treat race like it's relative, we all have our own unique problems and strengths that need to be addressed accordingly.
2266 
2267Life's foundation is arbitrary, it sucks that we're born one race and with one appearance, but our lives are inextricable from this determinism. To not hang yourself right now is to be a determinist, that's what I always say!
2268
2269==================================================
2270
2271Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/10/20 00:24
2272
2273@amazingdude
2274Yeah, for a while in my life I thought that most white people before this generation were evil or something and that they should be gone or at least their population reduced (I am white), but I later I realized that was completely unrealistic.
2275
2276There are things that are socially acceptable only when the person is not white, for example saying the N-word (which may be more race-specific) is okay (not in all situations, of course) when the person is black. I am socially not allowed to say this word, but I am perfectly fine with that because I'm already disgusted by its meaning anyway and wouldn't say it even if I got a "free pass" or something. Some things that whites can't do because of their race are fine by me because I've always felt kind of sorry for them since we've been the privileged race for much of human history at their expense. I will feel uncomfortable if someone says something bad about the white race but I will not be insulted. So basically I believe we should let them do what they want while it's still socially acceptable. I mean, I want equality across the board but I would feel more comfortable if we balance the scale first.
2277
2278@Minsheme
2279That might be useful.
2280
2281==================================================
2282
2283Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/10/20 01:55
2284
2285About equal playing field vs equality of outcome https://pastebin.com/WMpa3uc6
2286
2287The scale seems balanced enough to me. We've had all kinds of sandboxes for every race. Typically the scale goes: Jewish average income is highest, then Asian, then white, then Hispanic, then black. Why is it okay to point out that blacks are more athletic but not that they have less capacity to be civilised? I think person-to-person we should evaluate everyone individually, but from governmental point that is not useful.
2288 
2289And it is the same with the male vs female equality arguments - when the playing field is made even MORE equal (see Scandinavia) then the pay difference and choice of fields (i.e. disproportionate males in STEM) becomes even more disparate.
2290 
2291It is the same with what I said about racism, we are all biologically ra.cist and it won't change by trying to suppress it. Same for whatever causes different abilities of different races.
2292 
2293Humans in the northern hemisphere had to build shelter and therefore began things like writing, reading; abstract mental tasks. To survive in hot Southern climates there was no need for this so they did not. This is why Africans never developed a written language despite having plenty of time to do so before EVIL WHITEY came and oppressed them. They are simply less suited for civilisation on average. For some reason, people now are programmed into thinking this means you aren't willing to treat others individually and are condemning a whole race. I don't care if someone I meet is black, they can easily be more civilised and educated than me. It's only necessary to know all this for the sake of governance.
2294 
2295Let's say it is true, our ancestors oppressed blacks and they have an extreme disadvantage. Why should we give whites a handicap just because of this? This is fighting racism with racism. Supposedly we shouldn't care what way someone is born, yet we should have blood on our hands or be handed things because of how we were born, No, the only solution is to level the playing field and let nature take its course.
2296 
2297If this is about equality, why aren't Asians and Jews being handicapped the most? The environment they happened to evolve in was the most beneficial.
2298 
2299It was cruel to blacks to try to make them live in the first world. They didn't ask for it.
2300 
2301We are privileged to be born and exist in the first world, our only duty is to utilise it, otherwise we are squandering what the less privileged would love to have.
2302
2303==================================================
2304
2305The_Leviathan			#dy5l8n9X 2017/10/20 05:42
2306
2307What are you guys even talking about... lmao
2308
2309==================================================
2310
2311amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/10/20 11:51
2312
2313https://pastebin.com/mLPUSefR
2314
2315@Dracobot
2316Yeah i get what you're saying. Ultimately we should be aiming for equality, but at the same time we shouldnt shame white people for ther history. My race did fucked up things in the past, but that does not justify demonizing white people today.
2317 
2318@Minsheme
2319We are all racist/sexist/whatever a little bit. It goes back to our tribal era, where protecting the tribe was the most important thing to us. It's one of the key reasons why civilization developed. Hence why everybody who creates a social hierarchy, whether it be based on race or whatever, places themselves at the top.
2320 
2321What you say about equality is absolutely true: To achieve equality, we don't all dip down to the lowest common denominator. We help the less fortunate rise up, which is ultimately what we should be doing. Racism + Racism = more racism, which perpetuates the cycle. To get to a point where race does not matter, we need to reach true equality first.
2322
2323==================================================
2324
2325Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/10/20 13:18
2326
2327@Minsheme
2328By "balancing the scale", I meant since whites enslaved blacks, we should allow more social freedom for them and restrict it for the whites; otherwise, how are blacks ever going to be considered equal afterward outside of just "waiting it out"? The American government eventually gave a lot of freedom to the Native Americans after forcing them out of their land and treating them like the bad guys for so long.
2329
2330I tend to bring up this term in conversation a lot, but it is so applicable to society: we all experience ethnocentrism the moment we see or hear of something that is apart from our own cultural norms. And as you said, it's perfectly natural. It's just unfair, so we need to not necessarily limit our reflex but make sure it doesn't impact our decision-making.
2331
2332In a few days I'll read an excerpt from Leviathan in my Ethics class.
2333
2334==================================================
2335
2336amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/10/20 13:58
2337
2338Has anyone went to 1488's Discord server? i dont have discord
2339
2340==================================================
2341
2342Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/10/20 22:10
2343
2344@Dracobot
2345https://pastebin.com/dPRz4LRV
2346
2347They are free now though, if you're saying they're at a disadvantage because of the past (and not because there are still remnants of slavery making the playing field uneven) is to say that people have blood on their hands for being white.
2348 
2349It's also extremely difficult to determine who has been oppressed by who and to what extent throughout history, so where do we draw the line in asking for reparations? Every race has been through horrible carnage at the hands of another, despite what Hollywood and whatever other elite mouthpieces would have us believe. I just don't see anyway to make principle of this - I can make principle against it though and it can be summed up with that prisoner's dilemma I mentioned earlier.
2350 
2351Two major reasons why this would not work:
2352 
2353-People value orderliness i.e. they want a playing field with a firm foundation.
2354-Probably a subset of the above, **if people see someone getting ahead through no merit, they will not work themselves because the incentive has been taken away**. Why be generative and put in effort when the system gave the same outcome to someone who did nothing?
2355 
2356I mentioned Leviathan partly as a joke because of The_Leviathan but that's pretty cool, it's a great foundational book.
2357
2358@amazingdude
2359I looked at it, it was really stale, I couldn't believe it existed (because it's so pointless).
2360
2361==================================================
2362
2363Xed						#iyTcQZN3 2017/10/21 07:45
2364
2365HOW ARE YOU GUYS STILL ARGUING!!!! ITS BEEN 5 MONTHS SINCE IVE BEEN HERE, AND YOUR STILL ARGUING!!!!! HOW????
2366
2367==================================================
2368
2369Reztak's				#CYLJDSPm 2017/10/21 11:10
2370
2371Also, wth is going on in the comments about social issues?
2372
2373==================================================
2374
2375Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/10/22 01:04
2376
2377Since people always like pointing it out, I don't see it as "arguing" in a fighty way, I just like to exchange/contest ideas and see what everyone believes and why.
2378
2379==================================================
2380
2381U HAVE 2 VOTE!!!		#oivMsWIR 2017/10/22 03:01
2382
2383No more stupid comments please
2384
2385==================================================
2386
2387Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/10/22 05:25
2388
2389More stupid comments please.
2390
2391==================================================
2392
2393卐卐14ϟϟ88卐卐				#buqgIq8Z 2017/10/22 16:37
2394
2395Yall cucks need to realize that there is only one race of human: The white race.
2396
2397==================================================
2398
2399msg						#dmm2ADo9 2017/10/22 17:57
2400
2401@#buqgIq8Z {卐卐14ϟϟ88卐卐}
2402Go away from here.
2403
2404==================================================
2405
2406Tyne and wear			#5GBDuOyX 2017/10/22 22:21
2407
2408If the only race is the white race, humans are about to go extinct. You white people have become the architects of your own destruction.
2409
2410==================================================
2411
2412Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/10/22 22:55
2413
2414Tyne why do you hate white people so much? They're not going anywhere. There is a good chance that this faux-threat to the white race is an excuse to create a white ethnostate.
2415
2416==================================================
2417
2418amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/10/23 02:11
2419
2420Whi wont this post
2421https://pastebin.com/sR6M0pVV
2422
2423@T&W
2424How exactly do white people cause their own distruction?
2425 
2426@Minsheme
2427White ethnostates exist already, most of them are in Europe. How diverse is Poland, for example?
2428
2429T&W lives in china, this was covered in the climate change era of the debate
2430
2431==================================================
2432
2433Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/10/23 02:57
2434
2435Poland will succumb soon enough. If it does not happen perniciously, then they'll be destroyed (they depend on the EU and many citizens support it despite knowing their ideology, the country is not that sovereign). It's not like any country that is now multicultural decided "hey, let's stop being all one race", it was just forced on them. If it came to it, I can see a war happening in 30-50 years time because Poland and any other closed-borders nation in the first world is "racist, nazi", etc.
2436
2437==================================================
2438
2439Tyne and wear			#5GBDuOyX 2017/10/23 05:17
2440
2441@Amazingdude
2442I'm not being serious when I talk about the decline of the West, it's just that the nationalists, far-righters and such make it sound like some kind of doomsday event, and I just play along with that. It is true that European power has declined significantly since the beginning of the last century, and from what I can gather, it seems that some blame Europe's current problems on the so-called 'liberalism' and 'acceptance', even though both the roots and solutions of the problem are more complex. There will always be a difference in what should be done, what can be done and what people want to do. 
2443
2444I would not be surprised if there was another devastating war spanning the entirety of Europe in our lifetime. There hasn't been a single century in the modern era where this hasn't happened. As with the 'white ethnostate' claim, there are roughly two main factors. How desirable a country is to live in and whether people want to move there. Most immigrants (particularly Muslims) choose Western Europe over Eastern Europe because the West generally has better living conditions, better benefits, employment opportunities and social support. Living standards in Eastern Europe are lower and the locals and the governments are less accepting, whether this is due to historical qualms between Muslims, particularly in the Balkans, or some other reason. 
2445
2446==================================================
2447
2448Reztak's				#CYLJDSPm 2017/10/23 08:08
2449
2450wtf
2451
2452==================================================
2453
2454amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/10/23 10:09
2455
2456https://pastebin.com/j5uyd4iD
2457
2458@Minsheme
2459 
2460I believe every ethnicity should have a homeland. Poland for Poles, France for French, Korea for Koreans, etc. Obviously there should be some multicultural areas (USA for example), but forced multiculturalism is just as bad as forced monoculturalism. You're absolutely right. Why is multiculutralism being forced on mostly white countries, like UK and Germany? Why arent people flooding into China, or Nigeria? Why is Japan not being called asian supremacist for having very strict immigration laws?
2461 
2462People have the right to be upset that their homeland is being forcefully invaded. When the majority becomes the minority, they lose their sense of national identity, and ethnic tensions will rise, as the majority seeks to reconquer their homeland. Society will divide and nationalist cults will form. This is happening in the USA right now, as the white majority is afraid of becoming a minority (I do believe some recent American white nationalism has to do with this). Who's to say that this won't happen to Europe? If anything, it'll be worse, as the majority is actuallly native to the region, and have been living there for thousands of years, uninterrupted, something not true in the USA. At least they're justified in defending their homeland.
2463 
2464This all goes back to our natural insticnts. Back in the day, people had to protect their tribe in order to survive. Modern ethnic tensions are a result of our natural instincts of protecting our "tribe" (ethnicity in this case) from perceived danger (other ethnic groups), so what we're seeing is people trying to protect their tribe from "foreign invaders" (immigrants). It's harder to be kind to your neighbor if your neighbor is a member of a different tribe than you. Humans just aren't meant to mix. We don't like to admit that people are instinctively protective of their own race, but they are. We're in for one hell of a century.
2465 
2466Name a time in history where 2 different groups of people got along and cooperated for a long amount of time without any violence. Now name a time where 2 different groups of people met and tried to destroy each other and take over.
2467 
2468@T&W
2469 
2470I definitely see a WW3 breaking out in Europe soon. Also a second American civil war.
2471
2472==================================================
2473
2474Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/10/23 10:14
2475
2476I'd say the majority of economic migrants understand what they can reap in the West. They go to wherever can be reaped the most, and do so as much as possible.
2477
2478Anyway, I am running out of things to comment, so I will let videos of my nice strong country do the talking. (warning kinda loud)
2479https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/921833512117862400/pu/vid/1280x720/DvN-1wfYSw_ixd-i.mp4
2480
2481here is some dull pseudo-intellectual stuff I didn't feel like posting: https://pastebin.com/9RpzDSAD
2482
2483I agree with him that whites cause their own destruction. They're susceptible to a lot of "programming", and many other threats that East Asia in particular is immune to. Few whites have transcendent values to ground themselves in. We're going through tons of different cultural shifts which are happening artificially quickly; we've suddenly become in need of religion yet incompatible with all known religion. This is probably why people are turning to political extremes kinda as quasi-religion, this gives them something to ground themselves in, but no one (at least not average person) has access to anything original or authentic, it's always fed to us (or it's a reaction to those things fed to us) e.g. the "SJW" strawman, while they truly exist and have an impact, they are contrived and the reaction/opposition to them is pre-empted.
2484 
2485This is where Poland and the rest of the Visegrad Group may have an advantage, because they are educated properly. They're taught the importance of their history and somewhat heavy reading is expected of the average person. I'm not sure what else separates them, they just appreciate the adversity their country has been through and strive to not repeat it.
2486
2487==================================================
2488
2489βBETA					#0rob4al8 2017/10/23 10:22
2490
2491Oh, great..., people keep on saying, "I'm leaving because there is noting more I could possibly do." seriously..., dude. 
2492
2493==================================================
2494
2495U HAVE 2 VOTE!!!		#oivMsWIR 2017/10/23 12:22
2496
2497@卐卐14ϟϟ88卐卐
2498GET OUT OF PG2, NOW!!!!
2499
2500==================================================
2501
2502Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/10/23 13:57
2503
2504This would all be solved if people would just stop caring. I wouldn't care if I was the last white person on Earth, as long as I'm treated equally. I understand that it's hard-wired into our minds, but it really doesn't seem like a big deal to me, so I can't understand why people feel so strongly about their "tribes".
2505
2506And as we become more globalized, I predict that most major wars will be world wars.
2507
2508==================================================
2509
2510amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/10/24 11:28
2511
2512@Draco
2513How would we get people to stop caring about race? Obviously we would need to reach true equality first, both social and political. Some people base their whole identity on their race.
2514
2515==================================================
2516
2517Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/10/24 23:32
2518
2519I honestly don't know. I just don't understand why people think that way about themselves and their culture to begin with.
2520
2521==================================================
2522
2523U HAVE 2 VOTE!!!		#oivMsWIR 2017/10/25 00:00
2524
2525Dracobot and amazingdude are posting like randomly and you're talking about races and culture now. Can you guys just ignore the comment section if you can't think of anything to post other than randomness?
2526
2527==================================================
2528
2529OmegaPirate				#D5Zdki7l 2017/10/25 07:41
2530
2531@Draco & AD
2532Break the radical feminists first, then we can discuss race.
2533
2534==================================================
2535
2536Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/10/25 08:01
2537
2538@UH2V
2539I've asked this before: what topic about PG2 would *you* like to talk about? I am willing to talk about that as long as I have something to add to the discussion. I don't talk about mass deletions of uploads, for example, because I have nothing to add.
2540
2541==================================================
2542
2543danstroyer				#7h9Zn6zf 2017/10/25 10:13
2544
2545@UH2V WHAT ARE U EVEN TALKING ABOUT
2546
2547==================================================
2548
2549U HAVE 2 VOTE!!!		#oivMsWIR 2017/10/25 12:18
2550
2551How to post anything without having to put the period: Stuff like A is just &#.065; without the period. B is &#.066; etc. You can use a ASCII numbers converter to do this.
2552
2553That's how you trick the censor bots. It wouldn't be possible the put double asterisks if I didn't do &#.042 over and over again.
2554==================================================
2555
2556amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/10/25 12:41
2557
2558@Draco
2559As part of their identity, perhaps? After all, race is included on job apps and stuff like that, so people see it as important. Maybe remove race from the census and all paperwork? Dont think that will work
2560
2561@UH2V
2562Fuck off. Nobody wants your minimodding here. We can talk about whatever we want. Believe it or not, PG2 is a dead game, and theres nothing to talk about besides "vote for me". So stop trying to moderate this discussion. If people really cared then they'd just ignore me, and draco's posts. If ha55ii really cared, he'd have nuked this board months ago when the climate debate started. Vidkunssonn believes that ha55ii browses the boards. I dont think he does, but whatever.
2563
2564Heres the backup, sorry I've been slacking. https://pastebin.com/sGaqwcqx
2565
2566==================================================
2567
2568skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/10/25 14:04
2569
2570@AD
2571I made the choice quite a while ago to speak to you as little as possible. I personally dislike you strongly, and conversations with you are frustrating. Also, you ought to know that I of all people would disagree with the statement "PG2 is a dead game".
2572
2573==================================================
2574
2575Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/10/25 14:26
2576
2577Well, I think we should keep track of race for demographic reasons. Besides, you can't remove all instances of race in our society and expect it to solve our problems because the physical differences are there and noticeable. The problems would probably reform.
2578
2579==================================================
2580
2581Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/10/26 01:46
2582
2583I'm pretty sure ha55ii does browse the boards but that he just skims over things like this. It would be cool if he said something one day, I wonder if he ever has on either the JP or EN comment boards.
2584
2585About "topics that shouldn't be discussed here":
2586
2587Powder Game is a sandbox game. Here is a rule that you can see applies to PG all throughout its history because of that: the climate/quality of the game is a reflection of the playerbase (e.g. the key players might define the entire direction the community is going in). This is why you can/should discuss literally anything, along with the fact that it's a game where you can create literally anything. It would be inappropriate to put any limits on the discussion.
2588Minecraft is a good example of a sandbox that became worse as the playerbase got worse.
2589
2590==================================================
2591
2592Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/10/26 10:52
2593
2594@Minsheme
2595He has "appeared" to respond to comments before, but they looked like sheer coincidences to me.
2596
2597==================================================
2598
2599amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/10/26 11:44
2600
2601https://pastebin.com/Cmh3t7pK
2602
2603@Skyk
2604Why do you hate me? Is it because I do not believe in manmade climate change, or our different stances on painkiller addiction?
2605 
2606@Draco
2607True. Theres probably no solution to racism, until we all merge into one race in 1000 years, but even then, prejudice will always exist.
2608 
2609@Minsheme
2610He does announcements, but thats it. In Japanese boards, he does a longer explanation of the website. Also, otascube, another webmaster, is active in the appgames board.
2611 
2612Heres a post of his:
2613"@UH2V #2
2614If there is an inappropriate problem of dust please comment to Comments ( http://dan-ball.jp/bbs/support.html ).
2615ha55ii is also watching comments.
2616Thank you for your cooperation."
2617 
2618So it looks like UH2V the crybaby is complaining over there too.
2619 
2620Sidenote, Minecraft itself is still a good game, the community is utter fucking garbage.
2621
2622================================================== {Topic shift 8}
2623
2624skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/10/26 12:20
2625
2626It's mostly because you're violently apathetic. You haven't really shown the capacity for caring about any living thing other than yourself. Aside from that, I just find you basically unpleasant to talk to, but for a more compassionate person I would be able to excuse that.
2627
2628==================================================
2629
2630amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/10/26 13:54
2631
2632@Skyk
2633I'm not apathetic to normal people. I can and do care about people. It's just that I believe criminals should suffer for their crimes, and I don't believe they can be fixed (see 2017-08-xx comments). Why the fu,ck do murders deserve my compassion?
2634
2635@Draco (10:52)
2636examples?
2637
2638==================================================
2639
2640Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/10/26 14:39
2641
2642What is good about compassion exactly? Compassion drives killers and criminals. One of the most compassionate creatures on earth is a mother grizzly bear towards her children (not just a saying, I am talking about literal compassion as we know it) and you can imagine what that allows her to do. Please explain to me why emotional empathy would help anyone make good decisions.
2643
2644==================================================
2645
2646skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/10/26 22:23
2647
2648There's no such thing as a "good" decision without some moral background.
2649
2650==================================================
2651
2652Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/10/26 22:36
2653
2654@amazingdude
2655I didn't say any examples because I've seen it happen once and I don't remember what it was about. All I remember is ha55ii updated a game (PG2 maybe?) to fix a bug, Hachi wondered what it fixed, and ha55ii explained what it fixed immediately afterward. Ha55ii didn't explicitly respond to Hachi, and it just seemed to me that ha55ii forgot to add a description so he added it later. I know it has happened before because MG said it did.
2656
2657==================================================
2658
2659Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/10/26 22:46
2660
2661Is it just me or do all the interesting conversations only happen while I don't have reliable internet access?
2662
2663For something on-topic, the average person is said to only have enough real empathy for ~150 different people at any given point in their life- generally meaning one's family, friends, and a "pantheon" of influential gods/heroes/celebrities. After that they're either filed into a faceless stereotype or just forgotten about altogether by the end of the day. 
2664
2665==================================================
2666
2667Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/10/26 23:39
2668
2669What do emotions/compassion have to do with morals?
2670
2671==================================================
2672
2673danstroyer				#SWxiPlD1 2017/10/27 00:17
2674
2675PG2 IS NOT DEAD BUT IF YOU GUYS KEEP UP THIS NEGATIVE COMMENTS IT WILL BE, WE NEED TO TRY TO GET THE POWDER GAME ALIVE AGAIN (its in a semidead state) CMON WHOS WITH ME
2676
2677==================================================
2678
2679Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/10/27 00:32
2680
2681People will justify a lot of otherwise immoral actions if they don't particularly care about anybody the consequences would affect.
2682
2683==================================================
2684
2685Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/10/27 01:19
2686
2687There are no negative comments, I don't know why people see them that way. If you don't like the "debate" type comments then feel free to ignore them and continue a different discussion at the same time, nothing is stopping you so there is no problem.
2688
2689We need a system where beneficial actions are supported and detrimental ones have consequences, not relying on oxytocin to tell us to do the right thing. "Caring" about someone on an emotional level is a completely flimsy, situational thing to rely on, it's happenstance. There needs to be an unwavering baseline to conduct ourselves by.
2690
2691People can be taught to be pro-social rather than anti-social just because it is beneficial and yields reward in many ways, rather than hoping it aligns with the right emotional stimulation.
2692
2693==================================================
2694
2695skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/10/27 03:52
2696
2697There is no objective measure of "right" or "wrong". Even the most pragmatic person possible must still have a fundamental set of subjective values. I never said that it has to be purely emotional, but there is no such thing as pure logic when it comes to making the "right" choice, because there is no such thing as any objective measure of good or bad.
2698
2699Compassion is more than just whether you immediately feel good or bad about someone else. It's a trait of valuing the wellbeing of other living things. Compassion represents a goal, while logic is a tool. If you don't value other life, no amount of logic is going to make you
2700
2701==================================================
2702
2703Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/10/27 05:26
2704
2705compassion and ting: https://pastebin.com/p1VgHkju
2706
2707I don't agree with this approach since we can't have any harmony without some homogeny. That is, everyone needs a common ground and in this case that would be logical decisions. Without that benchmark there is no reason for people not to stray into chaos. We can weigh the good and bad of a decision with more than logic, but it's important to have unchanging measures. If we tried to be completely rational then I think we would no longer be human. So the important message here is that I'm not saying what compassion achieves is necessarily bad - we may arrive at the same result through "logic" (or other values) as we would through what I consider compassion. In my opinion, if someone reached a good outcome but did it by acting on emotions, then it was wrong.
2708 
2709There will always be some subjectivity which is why humans constantly make compromises in order to be part of any system, but we have an innate nature. The fact that we all have a head, body and limbs (along with pretty similar brains with similar reward functions) is evidence enough of that. Everyone has deviations but no one is alien. Naturally we even recognise what was "subjectively good" for others when it wasn't desirable for ourselves.
2710 
2711So what is the principle with compassion? For example I know plenty of people who inherited debilitating conditions and wished that we hadn't supplemented their lives (they live only because we decided whether they should live or die) so they lived a life of suffering and their genes were continued. Compassionate impulse tells us to value all life and makes us squirm at the thought of allowing Darwinism to make the weak suffer (not necessarily killing, just putting them through adversity). The cold and calculated decision allows us things like euthanasia. This is just an example so let's not go off on a tangent, I am not saying I firmly believe we should euthanise everyone who is "defective", but only using this hypothetically to see the different ways of making decisions.
2712
2713==================================================
2714
2715βBETA					#0rob4al8 2017/10/27 05:54
2716
2717I see this discussion is going divine. 
2718
2719==================================================
2720
2721skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/10/27 06:13
2722
2723At this point, when someone expects me to read three or more paragraphs in a pastebin I just give up. If you wanna have a debate, go on Reddit or something, but I have lost all motivation to try and convince anyone of anything on the Powder Game 2 comment boards.
2724
2725==================================================
2726
2727Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/10/27 06:50
2728
2729I don't see it as us trying to best each other or change each other's minds, it is just information to me. I admire anyone who was willing to share dialogue and put forth their thoughts, so thank you to everyone who has.
2730
2731==================================================
2732
2733Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/10/27 12:48
2734
2735https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs makes a decent morality system. Some general rule like "X <(Y+2)" where X is one's own priority section while Y is the priority section of somebody else- so an objectively moral person would never put their own love life above someone else's need to breathe.
2736
2737==================================================
2738
27391488					#9ndySrFD 2017/10/29 04:53
2740
2741Whether you wsnt to admit it or not, the white race is the most successful race in human history
2742
2743==================================================
2744
2745Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/10/29 05:28
2746
2747Not very successful from an ethical and non-ignorant perspective. It's easy to win something if you cheat.
2748
2749==================================================
2750
2751Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/10/29 14:33
2752
2753What is "cheating"? Is there an honour code built into nature? You really think every race in history wasn't at each other's throats, and that every race has had periods of coming out on top or being dominated?
2754
2755If you want a good argument against white supremacy then just look at the swaths of ingenuous whites who adopt white guilt and neoliberalism.
2756
2757================================================== 
2758
2759U HAVE 2 VOTE!!!		#oivMsWIR 2017/10/29 14:59
2760
2761@Minsheme, Dracobot, amazingdude,etc.
2762I don't think that you should post that stuff in the Powder Game 2 comments, but post that stuff on a different website. If you keep posting this, I will tell ha55ii to get rid of all these useless comments about random stuff. Also, stop posting comments with profanities in them. The PG2 comments is here not because ha55ii wants you to talk about races, cheating, history, etc.
2763
2764==================================================
2765
2766Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/10/29 18:50
2767
2768You're not anyone's boss UH2V, nobody gives a shift what you think is "useless" or "random".
2769
2770On topic: https://pastebin.com/kn1UZGck
2771
2772"Honorable" combat is mostly a myth that super-powers use to keep the status quo. If both sides use equal levels of force, the richer side will always come out on top in the long run because a lost battle drains a smaller percentage of their resources- 1,000 from 10,000,000 is much easier to handle than 1,000 from 10,000. Saying there's such a thing as "cheating" is a luxury only available to the guy that would win a fair fight.
2773
2774==================================================
2775
2776Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/10/30 02:42
2777
2778@UH2V
2779Amazingdude is archiving the comments, anyway. Do you want me to talk about PG2? Fine.
2780
2781Side note: "Cheating" implies using a tactic that gives yourself an unfair advantage over others (there doesn't have to be a set of rules that must be followed); by "advantage over others" I mean the goal implied is to be the last race standing (as per evolution). The "advantage" is making *sure* the other races don't become dominant over the whites by utilizing their position and power that the other races don't have. The definition of the term "unfair" is entirely decided by us, but wouldn't you agree that this is a decent definition? It's like Rockefeller's monopoly: either sell your business to him or be overwhelmed in his shadow. It was *unfair* because your success depended on who you were at the time instead of something that you choose, even though the laws of the universe say it's perfectly fine to do so. Minsheme, I'm not saying that the white race is the only one that was racist at some point and I'm not saying that it was the only race to use that tactic to be dominant. All I'm saying is that, according to *my* understanding of "unfair", the whites have achieved their dominance unfairly.
2782
2783==================================================
2784
2785danstroyer				#OhRZvGPi 2017/10/30 03:39
2786
2787im leaving if you all wont stop with the dumb stuff
2788
2789==================================================
2790
2791Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/10/30 04:32
2792
2793Western civilisation and culture would still be as it is today even if at no point had whites rode on the backs of oppressed people, if they ever even did so disproportionately, keeping in mind that it was happening to the majority of peoples' existence was to serve someone else no matter what their background.
2794
2795There are plenty of microcosms of all races showing their different performance. In my opinion East Asians (broadly) and Ashkenazis (le most oppressed race in history!!!! :( :(.) seem to outdo Whites at their own game, but that's the thing, it's just one "game", different races have different strengths. I've said in other comments, those in climates where it's more necessary to do so would build shelters and then begin focusing on more abstract mental tasks. Those in warmer climates had no biological need to evolve this way.
2796
2797==================================================
2798
27991488					#BcZjX8L1 2017/10/30 05:05
2800
2801White Power! Gas the jews!
2802
2803==================================================
2804
2805U HAVE 2 VOTE!!!		#oivMsWIR 2017/10/30 10:58
2806
2807http://u-have-2-vote.weebly.com/haterlist.html
2808If you post hate comments or mean comments about me I will put you on the hate list
2809
2810==================================================
2811
2812King Kentucky			#paPdACwJ 2017/10/30 11:57
2813
2814UH2V, put Kentucky, Kéntucky, raichu132, StarTrek(uh)Kirk?, MB Master, CV Master?, uh RCA's Minion, uh uh uh I don't remember anymore on there too. Also, shut the fuck up.
2815
2816==================================================
2817
2818amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/10/30 12:00
2819
2820@UH2V
2821Nobody wants you here fuckface. Do something useful with your life instead of micromodding on a comment board of a (almost) dead game, yelling at people just for talking. Just fuck off. Your website reeks of 9 year old cringe.
2822
2823Tell you what: Post a picture of yourself holding a sign with your username, and if you're over 15, I'm withdrawing my account and never coming back.
2824(yes i know that was a bit too toxic. i love trolling trolls)
2825
2826@draco
2827I wouldnt call it unfair. Back in the day, everyone enslaved, tortured, dominated, etc people they encountered.
2828
2829==================================================
2830
2831Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/10/30 12:07
2832
2833@uh2v
2834Change your name, unless you really do care about votes.
2835
2836I....I....What? Why is this already taken? I swear to God I did not take this username myself. I wanted to care the name "U HAVE 2 VAGINAS!!!" for him.
2837https://puu.sh/yaof7/3e1b0e55a8.png
2838
2839==================================================
2840
2841Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/10/30 12:41
2842
2843Why is STS on the haterlist but I'm not? I've never been so insulted.
2844
2845==================================================
2846
2847U HAVE 2 VOTE!!!		#oivMsWIR 2017/10/30 13:40
2848
2849Changing your name can't be don't on Dan-Ball, FYI.
2850
2851==================================================
2852
2853Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/10/30 13:59
2854
2855@LK & UH2V
2856There's got to be about 20-30 more accounts, and that's no exaggeration.
2857RCA Liposuction is my favorite, and I came up with that one.
2858
2859@TK
2860That's the probably-imposter STS from a few weeks ago.
2861
2862==================================================
2863
2864Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/10/30 14:47
2865
2866I know you can't change it. That's why you'd lose all your "votes" - you'd make a new name.
2867
2868==================================================
2869
2870Hachi1					#pdDlVqmc 2017/10/30 16:16
2871
2872oh woah this chat is way more interesting than the PG1 chat
2873
2874add me to the hatelist plz <3
2875
2876==================================================
2877
2878danstroyer				#9UE0POrr 2017/10/30 23:19
2879
2880I'm leaving and if your smart you should too I'm 10 and I know that
2881
2882now I'm going to check in the comments until Saturday and if nothing changes or it just gets more toxic I'm leaving forever
2883
2884==================================================
2885
28861488					#Ckl15dqk 2017/10/31 02:06
2887
2888You are wrong. Whtie people are superior
2889
2890==================================================
2891
2892Tyne and wear			#5GBDuOyX 2017/10/31 05:27
2893
2894*Were superior. You colonised the world but the world is colonising you now. Congrats you played yourself. 
2895
2896==================================================
2897
2898ZEggs					#Rt8ZuRYF 2017/10/31 05:29
2899
2900FUCKING DIE YOU FUCKING FAGGOT
2901DELETE HIS WORKS!!
2902THE DICTATOR OF POWDER GAME - U HAVE 2 VOTE!!
2903HE BELIEVES HE IS THE RULER,
2904HE ISN'T
2905HE THINKS HIS 10 YEAROLD MINE CAN HANDLE POWDER GAME
2906IT CAN'T
2907HE IS OUR ENEMY, LOOK AT HIS NAME
2908YOU SEE, HE WILL NEVER HAVE FAME
2909perhaps UH2V should listen to "STFU" By Filthy Frank
2910
2911==================================================
2912
2913ZEggs					#Rt8ZuRYF 2017/10/31 05:30
2914
2915If you are wondering, I am a person from PG1, I think I actually make decent uploads.
2916UH2V is spreading cancer and ha.te all over dan-ball and should be banned. Please go to PG1 click delete on all his works.
2917
2918==================================================
2919
2920MidnightMonster			#VfijhzSI 2017/10/31 06:46
2921
2922A hate list?
2923I don't want to get too involved in this, but if you "hate" people just because of a mean comment, you need to calm down, and making a hate list just takes it too far. A lot of drama has been happening, some uploads being deleted, (Which shouldn't happen anyways, as people work hard on the things they upload, but if it's inappropriate, I can kinda understand that.) and now a hate list. I wonder what PG2 was like before all this drama. 
2924
2925==================================================
2926
2927IFIDIE					#kDtwbHK9 2017/10/31 06:48
2928
2929Everyone hating on UH2V
2930
2931==================================================
2932
2933danstroyer				#RyqAdxrS 2017/10/31 08:15
2934
2935UH2V is 10?
2936
2937==================================================
2938
2939lmao					#Y2A6Zh3j 2017/10/31 08:20
2940
2941I bet
2942
2943==================================================
2944
2945OmegaPirate				#D5Zdki7l 2017/10/31 08:36
2946
2947This place never ceases to amaze me.
2948
2949==================================================
2950
2951Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/10/31 08:58
2952
2953@danstroyer
2954Just come back a few weeks from now, and if that doesn't work, come back a few weeks later. It will die down soon.
2955
2956@MidnightMonster
2957Pockets of about the same drama, and the rest of the time we didn't have much dispute at all.
2958
2959I'm going to call this the "U HAVE 2 HATE" era. Anyone else have a name?
2960
2961==================================================
2962
2963King Kentucky			#paPdACwJ 2017/10/31 09:02
2964
2965i haven't been this amused in a while
2966
2967==================================================
2968
2969King Kentucky			#paPdACwJ 2017/10/31 09:16
2970
2971"Comments code of conduct
2972Use appropriate expressions.
2973Don't post offensive comments.
2974Don't reply to any inflammatory comments but ignore them."
2975
2976this is my first time seeing this i think
2977
2978==================================================
2979
2980skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/10/31 09:47
2981
2982Can everyone stop being so rude, please?
2983
2984==================================================
2985
2986amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/10/31 10:25
2987
2988https://pastebin.com/rGkXYK4Z
2989
2990The guy's 10 years old. I know, because I was that age once.
2991 
2992@1488
2993Its getting old now. Just stop.
2994 
2995@t&w
2996Reverse colonization? If this turns out to be true I can see a reverse "revolution" coming soon.
2997 
2998@danstroyer
2999The same was said about the climate debate. That era lasted 2.5 months and then limped on into a few more topics, including the race debate most recently.
3000 
3001@eggogirl
3002Powder toy.
3003 
3004@draco
3005Yeah ill incorporate it into the great debate.
3006 
3007@KK
3008Thats been there for literal years now.
3009
3010@UH2V
3011UH2V, I'm still open to the challenge. I'm withdrawing my account and disappearing forever if you're over 15 and can prove it by taking a picture of yourself, holding a paper saying "U HAVE 2 VOTE!!!" and the date, coming from your ACCOUNT AND ID "U HAVE 2 VOTE!!! #oivMsWIR"
3012==================================================
3013
3014U HAVE 2 VOTE!!!		#oivMsWIR 2017/10/31 11:50
3015
3016https://pastebin.com/6UNZRmbL
3017
3018Note: Offensive replies or replies containing profanities will be reported to ha55ii.
30191. @TK 10/30 12:41PM
3020I'm not putting you on the hater list, because you have not posted any mean comment about me.
3021 
30222. @Minsheme 10/31 10:47AM
3023True.
3024 
30253. @ZEggs 10/31 5:30AM
3026No way. You are the one that's spreading it.
3027 
30284. @ZEggs 10/31 5:29AM
3029If you don't like me, fine. You don't need to be angry and use profanities.
3030P.S. Are you hating me because of my name or what?
3031 
30325. @MidnightMonster 10/31 6:46AM
3033People are just cyber-bullying a lot in the PG Comments. I don't know why.
3034 
30356. @Hachi1 10/30 4:17PM
3036*Same answer as in [1.]
3037 
30387. @Minsheme 10/30 12:15PM
3039Not appropriate. All those stupid images you are making that are:
3040A. rude B. making fun of me C. Photoshopped or changed by inspect element
3041need to go away.
3042 
30438.@amazingdude 10/30 12:00PM
3044*Same answer as in [4.]
3045 
30469. @danstroyer 10/27 12:17AM
3047What the heck are you posting?
3048 
304910. @kittyprank 10/26 11:55PM
3050True.
3051 
305211. @danstroyer 10/24 11:49PM
3053The PG2 comments were not made for posting random comments, yes, but *Same answer as in [9.]
3054 
305512. @卐卐14ϟϟ88卐卐 10/22 4:37PM
3056Your comment really needs to get deleted.
3057
3058==================================================
3059
3060MidnightMonster			#VfijhzSI 2017/10/31 11:51
3061
3062@Dracobot
3063Seems better than what the PG2 comment board is now.
3064
3065==================================================
3066
3067eandip					#SmU02I6Z 2017/10/31 13:08
3068
3069Jesus, you guys really seem to hate UH2V. I don't see any comments by him, he delete them or something? Someone wanna fill me on what happened? 
3070
3071==================================================
3072
3073Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/10/31 13:30
3074
3075you can't tell which one UH2V is?.. there are not many possible people
3076
3077==================================================
3078
3079Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/10/31 14:14
3080
3081If you think I haven't been saying mean things about you, you've got poor reading comprehension on top of everything else.
3082
3083==================================================
3084
3085Tyne and wear			#5GBDuOyX 2017/11/01 02:40
3086
3087In all honesty, I've barely even noticed UH2V. Whatever he posts has little do do with the conversation at hand and the content of whatever he says is generally uninteresting or irrelevant. I barely even read them. One day he's going to look back on this epoch of his life and wince at it. We can all relate to this, can't we?
3088
3089==================================================
3090
3091Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/11/01 03:21
3092
3093When I was his age I mostly obsessed over dinosaurs and castles, not rules or reputation. So no, I don't really relate all that well to his point of view.
3094
3095==================================================
3096
3097Beandip					#SmU02I6Z 2017/11/01 04:08
3098
3099@Minsheme
3100Wow, I'm pretty stupid. I didn't realize that you guys were abbreviating the name.
3101And Jesus UH2V, you need to calm down. You're making a fool of yourself. 
3102
3103==================================================
3104
3105amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/11/01 05:16
3106
3107https://pastebin.com/TvRuVZ0x
3108
3109@UH2V
3110Just stop. Please. You've already lost every ounce of respect you once had (if any). You're only embarrasing yourself. If I were you, I'd apoligize for everything and try to make myself a better person.
3111 
3112Also, Why are you changing the timestamps to am/pm? Just keep the 24 hour format, it makes it easier to find the comment on the CB, and besides, its much better than that stupid am/pm time system. I know its really trivial, but it bugs me to sh,it to see someone voluntarily change units to an inferior format. Why does am/pm time even exist? (new debate time!)
3113 
3114Your efforts to wipe the CB's are pointless. I've been archiving the CBs since 2017-05-16, both in HTML and text format, and regularly post archives. In fact, here's one right now: https://pastebin.com/vRrYuHWu. Good luck getting sh,it taken down, as I was "doxxed" a few months back, and it  never got removed, and had to wait for the 1000 post limit to swallow it up. I've tried contacting ha55iii in the past, both English and Japanese, and he never responded nor did anything. You think your webmaster on appgames will listen, but in reality, he won't. If they really cared about comments being on topic, they'd have been wiped already. The climate change argument**, punishment argument, flat earth argument, etc. would have never been given the chance to fluorish. You ain't going to get sh,it done.
3115 
3116The only things that have been removed are shady links (ask Vidkunssonn about DBCBB, which was an innocent project), but that may just be a bot.
3117 
3118@beandip
3119This guy keeps bit,ching at us to stay on topic and not debate what we've been debating for over 5 months now (diff topics, same debate), and then he starts complaining about works he doesnt like, and is overall just an asshole trying t o micromod the CB. What really tipped him over was the fact he made a HATE LIST(!!) about us, which really shows how immature he is.
3120 
3121-------
3122 
3123**This is why all my pastes are titled "Climate alarmism debunked", despite not being about climate change. At the beginning, I was mostly half trolling, expecting the debate to die off after a week. Miraculously, it continues now (although it has barely limped through some parts) I just kept reusing the title, and only TK has noticed.
3124 
3125"Torture King           #TI3DWoRg 2017/08/22 11:40
3126 
3127Out of curiosity, why are you still naming everything "climate alarmism debunked"? That last one had nothing to do with the climate or even natural science as a whole."
3128
3129==================================================
3130
3131Tyne and wear			#5GBDuOyX 2017/11/01 05:37
3132
3133@amazingdude
3134I actually noticed several weeks ago but I never brought it up for the sake of not restarting the whole debate. I assumed that you either couldn't be bothered to change it or just trying to restart it. 
3135
3136==================================================
3137
3138MidnightMonster			#VfijhzSI 2017/11/01 05:41
3139
3140Here to change the subject a little.
3141Anyone here going trick-or-treating? Am I the only one? Oh well, I'm dressing up as a taco, because why not?
3142
3143==================================================
3144
3145King Kentucky			#SBAn4niq 2017/11/01 05:57
3146
3147I wanna dress up as a piece of sh.it but UH2V took that idea.
3148Honestly, that was lame but I'm still posting it.
3149What were y'all even talking about before this came about UH2V
3150
3151==================================================
3152
3153skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/11/01 06:02
3154
3155I wish I was young enough to trick-or-treat/not so busy that I don't have time to make a costume. At least I'm old enough to buy myself candy, though
3156
3157==================================================
3158
3159βBETA					#0rob4al8 2017/11/01 06:52
3160
3161I'm young enough to trick-or-treat, I just have too much homework due the following day to do so. ):
3162
3163==================================================
3164
3165MidnightMonster			#VfijhzSI 2017/11/01 08:08
3166
3167I have tons of homework to do, too, But it's not due tomorrow, so I'm good for trick-or-treating! I'm going to start at around 7:30, because that's when all the good candy is available!
3168
3169==================================================
3170
3171Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/11/01 08:35
3172
3173I would trick-or-treat, but I've got to start applying to graduate school. :P
3174
3175@amazingdude
3176I also noticed before TK said something, but I just didn't bother to mention it.
3177
3178==================================================
3179
3180Hachi1					#pdDlVqmc 2017/11/01 09:51
3181
3182lmao draco i feel you man. What/where are you applying for? I'm doing graduate maths starting in february, doing a research project in differential geometry.
3183i did however go to a halloween party where i dressed up as a caterer from the main catering company at my university B-)
3184
3185==================================================
3186
3187Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/11/01 11:08
3188
3189I always dress up as a zombie and just do normal things as a zombie. Some years I mix it up with a specific person/death like one time I was a clown that got stabbed in the heart with a balloon sword, but otherwise I'm just a really pale guy in muddy formal wear.
3190
3191==================================================
3192
3193amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/11/01 13:07
3194
3195I stopped TOTing after I was 14. It just got boring being lonely.
3196
3197@T&W
3198Wanna restart the great climate debate?
3199
3200@KK
3201We were talking about racism. Wanna give your thoughts?
3202
3203==================================================
3204
3205U HAVE 2 VOTE!!!		#oivMsWIR 2017/11/01 13:30
3206
3207My future uploads won't be UH2V, because I created a new account and will make better uploads.
3208P.S. People keep doing stuff like "U HAVE 2 VAGINAS" so I "changed" my name. (Even though in BBS I will be UH2V)
3209
3210==================================================
3211
3212King Kentucky			#SBAn4niq 2017/11/01 14:21
3213
3214I think if people never evolved we wouldn't have these problems. Cavemen did it right.
3215If we were cavemen, i don't think racism would exis- well, shit idk fucking know man.
3216
3217==================================================
3218
3219Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/11/01 14:36
3220
3221The first known "war" (As in, weapon-use between two distinct factions with a specific goal.) was a cannibalistic genocide between Neanderthals and Sapiens over a river valley/cave network in what would later be Turkey. So like, if anything; we're less racist than cavemen.
3222
3223==================================================
3224
3225Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/11/02 02:06
3226
3227@TK
3228That would be speciesist wouldn't it? It's absolutely shocking to me that this term even exists by the way. I know some purple haired girl who uses it.
3229
3230Even chimps technically have wars so it seems likely that the first undocumented war was long before that, not that I know anything about that genocide you mentioned.
3231
3232==================================================
3233
3234amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/11/02 07:43
3235
3236@TK
3237Neanderthals arent a race. Thats like saying that fighting gorillas is racist, even though they're a different species
3238
3239==================================================
3240
3241King Kentucky			#SBAn4niq 2017/11/02 11:15
3242
3243"Stop Please Fighting"
3244Stop, please fighting!
3245so we stop what we are doing and we must please fighting question mark smiley face exclamation point?
3246
3247==================================================
3248
3249IFIDIE					#kDtwbHK9 2017/11/02 11:38
3250
3251XD please is at the bottom so you read it as "Stop Fighting Please"
3252
3253==================================================
3254
3255turtleboy19				#rwCIlBG9 2017/11/02 12:12
3256
3257comment section=AIDS
3258
3259==================================================
3260
3261Dark Doctor				#UssduMir 2017/11/02 12:28
3262
3263What is the key concept of capitalism?
3264
3265==================================================
3266
3267Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/11/02 15:01
3268
3269@King Kentucky
3270Let's Fighting Love
3271
3272@Dark Doctor
3273Production hinging on organic demand. Compare to socialism where it is sort of technocratic (at best. I don't know any examples where it wasn't just bureaucratic instead) in my opinion.
3274
3275If you allow unhindered, "natural" demand (total free market) then you will probably spawn hypercapitalism. To me that means an unnatural force affecting the natural forces, i.e. putting profit before basic human needs, "decency", so that the natural system can't maintain itself.
3276
3277==================================================
3278
3279Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/11/02 18:48
3280
3281Neanderthals were a human subspecies, not just another primate. 1 in 20 of our common ancestors are estimated to have been neanderthals, so it's not like they were a fully separate thing like gorillas are.
3282
3283==================================================
3284
3285Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/11/02 22:15
3286
3287@TK
3288It's still subspeciesist, though.
3289
3290================================================== {Topic shift 9}
3291
3292Beandip					#SmU02I6Z 2017/11/03 03:07
3293
3294Anyone wanna discuss gun control in America?
3295
3296==================================================
3297
3298Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/11/03 04:38
3299
3300I personally wouldn't feel safe living in mountain lion territory without a large caliber somewhere on the property and don't know how other people do, but I also don't see a point to automatic anti-personnel weapons unless your goal is to mow down a crowd of unarmored civilians.
3301
3302==================================================
3303
3304KK						#R0hTCJvb 2017/11/03 05:12
3305
3306I think we should stick to hand-to-hand combat. A mountain lion won't be able to beat me hand-to-paw and if it lucks up and eats a leg or arm I'll just say "jokes on you, you have aids now"
3307
3308==================================================
3309
3310skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/11/03 05:21
3311
3312Since the year 2000, in the United States, there have been three fatal mountain lion attacks, and over ten thousand accidental firearm-related deaths. I'm in cougar territory, and I'd honestly rather take my chances with the big cats
3313
3314==================================================
3315
3316Beandip					#SmU02I6Z 2017/11/03 08:13
3317
3318The way I see it, we do have a problem with gun violence, but that problem is linked directly with poverty. The vast majority of gun homicides are done with handguns and in low income areas. If we put more money into programs that keep people in low income areas off the streets and in school, we'd see way less gun violence.
3319
3320While "assault style" weapons may not be the most practical gun to own, reducing gun deaths in America is entirely an issue of combating poverty rather than banning guns.
3321
3322That'd said, I think giving mountain lions aids is a fantastic idea too. 
3323
3324==================================================
3325
3326amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/11/03 12:58
3327
3328https://pastebin.com/fB8gxvBY
3329
3330==================================================
3331
3332Oh boy here we go again!
3333 
3334More gun control isn't going to help. Criminals will get guns regardless, and if they can't use a gun, they'll find another way to kill people, whether it be trucks, bombs, or knives. What we should be doing is imposing stricter laws on who can enter this country (another debate!). In the end, gun control only hurts the innocent people. They can pass more laws, but it ain't gonna work.
3335 
3336I feel this issue should be up to the states to decide. If California wants to take all our guns, then they should push for more state legislation, rather than force it on the whole country. Why should people in Texas have to give up their guns because California doesn't like guns? After all, this country is based off of the idea of small government and liberty, and nationwide gun control takes both of these away from us.
3337 
3338It also undermines the second anendment. The second amendment does not protect hunting, or open carrying. It is there to protect us from a tyrannical government. If a government becomes tyranical, it is the peoples' duty to overthrow the government and keep it in check. It would only take 9 million Americans to overthrow the US government. While some may argue that this is not a threat in the modern world, a tyrannical government is ALWAYS a threat. Hitler seemed like a good guy in the early 30s. Look how that turned out.
3339 
3340If the government takes away your right to protect yourself, that is a massive overstep in government power, and is a VERY bad sign that the government is becoming too strong. We've already lost our 4th amendment (patriot act), and the 1st and 2nd are under attack. If we are unwilling to defend our own constitution and bill of rights, what kind of people are we?
3341 
3342"But nobody needs to own assault weapons!" If we give the government the power to decide what we can and cannot use to protect ourselves, then we lost that right. Limiting a right is no better than removing it entirely.
3343 
3344@Skyk
3345 
3346Why not ban drugs, alcohol, and vehicles?
3347 
3348Drugs: 47,055 deaths, in 2014 ALONE. Source: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6450a3.htm
3349 
3350Alcohol: 88,000 deaths each year in the United States from 2006 – 2010. Source: https://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/fact-sheets/alcohol-use.htm
3351 
3352Vehicles: 35,092 deaths, in 2015 ALONE. Source: http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/t/general-statistics/fatalityfacts/overview-of-fatality-facts
3353 
3354I can go on an on about things that are more lethal than guns.
3355 
3356It's clear that each of these 3 kill more people than firearms each year. Why not ban these? Oh wait! Drugs are already illegal, Prohibition failed miserably, and vehicles are a necessary part of transportation!
3357 
3358Mexico strict gun laws. No gun violence here! Definitely no corruption and cartel problems!
3359 
3360Even IF we banned guns, the effect would be small, ineffective, and would take away the most important right we have as a country. Who's to say that the 60% of Americans who own guns (mostly Republicans) will actually turn in their guns and essentially give up their right to protection? How will you take care of the millions of unregistered guns, illegal guns on the streets, illegally imported guns, etc. It'll NEVER get through congress, let alone the president and supreme court.
3361 
3362Like beandip said, "The vast majority of gun homicides are done with handguns and in low income areas". Putting regulations on "assault" weapons wouldnt stop these murders.
3363 
3364@beandip
3365 
3366I do agree with you here. Poverty is a hard issue to solve, and "just give the poor more money!" wouldnt work. What we should improve is education and mental health, which would reduce poverty at its source.
3367 
3368Or, we could just lock them all up and impose stricter sentencing laws, and send more cops out there to catch all the crime that happens. Both options would work, especially in combination with each other.
3369
3370==================================================
3371
3372Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/11/03 14:19
3373
3374That argument made more sense before WW2. If a modern industrialized government decided to be tyrannical, it'd take a lot more than some third-hand ordinance for a bunch of untrained civilians to do anything about it. At that point, you've got to make your cause appeal to a non-tyrant with a similar level of technological sophistication, or else they'll just blow you up and keep on tyrannizing.
3375
3376==================================================
3377
3378Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/11/03 15:19
3379
3380I've spent a lot of time around people from places like /k/... a lot. American civilians could take on the state 5 times over and have energy to spare. Personally I had to see it to believe it, it's amazing how prepared people are to go into militarisation mode.
3381
3382==================================================
3383
3384Molefight				#cN5uoELD 2017/11/03 16:20
3385
3386@Minsheme
3387Yes, I don't know what /k/ is, but I would personally fight to the death if a tyrant ever rose to power, and I know many others who would as well.
3388I have around a dozen firearms and at least 1000 rounds of ammunition, but I have nowhere near the arsenal others I know have.
3389
3390==================================================
3391
3392Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/11/03 16:51
3393
3394Yeah, that might work well for the first year or so, but what happens when ammunition runs low, parts start to break, and none of the civilian factions control any mines/factories with which to make more? Or worse, what if they did expend resources to capture some, but the government just bombs their losses into slag? Sorry, but I just don't see a victory for guerillas when the war is based on resource attrition and the aggressors know the terrain equally well.
3395
3396==================================================
3397
3398Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/11/03 19:49
3399
3400@TK literally seize the means of production.
3401
3402The thing is, it is sort of a mutually-assured destruction. The state depends on the people. I won't spoonfeed about all the implications of this and what it means for strategising things like this, but it's amazing how people organise themselves in these situations. Every community quickly finds their leader(s), becomes organised, and assuming martial law takes place it's almost impossible for anyone to not join you. Even many people within the government will abandon, many of their grunts will work in civilian favour.
3403
3404NOTE ALL 100% HYPOTHETICAL DO NOT TRY TO IMPLEMENT- THIS IS FOR HISTORICAL, CULTURAL THEORY ONLY- EDUCATIONAL PURPOSES AND WHAT HAVE YOU
3405
3406==================================================
3407
3408Beandip					#SmU02I6Z 2017/11/04 06:38
3409
3410https://pastebin.com/rjPzdEGN
3411
3412Torture King
3413 
3414You make a good argument, but you don't account for the biggest part of how a tyrannical government functions. While obviously government troops have significantly more firepower than civilians, they aren't going to be all that happy to use it. Assuming that this is the local government trying to enforce its will, rather than a foreign power, bombing infrastructure is going to do more harm to the gov than the people, as the govs long term goal is to control the infrastructure.
3415 
3416When the government enforces its will on its own populace, they use manpower rather than explosives. Back during civil rights era, Federal troops were brought in to enforce the desegregation of schools. Obviously desegregation is a noble use of the government's power, and the troops faced little opposition other than minor protesting. However, a tyrannical government will have much less noble goals, and likely a good portion of the armed forces will not agree with the use of their power. On top of this, those that do support the tyrannical government know that a little under 1 in 3 of the citizens they are oppressing own one or more firearms, and are capable of fighting back.
3417 
3418The main reason I support an armed populace is not because I want to fight an open war against a government I see as tyrannical. Rather, an armed populace discourages a government from becoming tyrannical in the first place, due to the threat of armed revolt.
3419
3420==================================================
3421
3422amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/11/04 16:09
3423
3424https://pastebin.com/U175RE58
3425
3426@TK
3427With modern technology, it wouldn't be hard to organize a nationwide uprising and rebellion against the government. Even if we get only 10% of the country to participate, that's 30 million - Enough to be a serious threat regardless. I know I said 9 million earlier, and that seems kind of low. I just heard it from somewhere and don't know if it's accurate or not.
3428 
3429With a coördinated effort, ammo makers can supply the resistance with enough ammunition to keep fighting. Alot of the people in the gun industry are pro second amendment. Minsheme is right, the people WILL organize to fight a tyrranical governent.
3430 
3431@Minsheme
3432Thats what makes us great. Our people have the duty to keep the government in check, and our government has to watch its ass, or it'll face a heavy uprising. While the government is more powerful now than 100 years ago, the argument still holds weight.
3433 
3434@Beandip
3435You're right, the government really has nothing to gain from going tyrannical. They destroy the country, and then the people start a revolution against them. Either a HUGE civil war breaks out, or a new government is installed.
3436 
3437"The main reason I support an armed populace is not because I want to fight an open war against a government I see as tyrannical. Rather, an armed populace discourages a government from becoming tyrannical in the first place, due to the threat of armed revolt."
3438 
3439I love this quote.
3440
3441==================================================
3442
3443Hachi1					#pdDlVqmc 2017/11/04 16:28
3444
3445I love and hate minsheme at the same time
3446
3447==================================================
3448
3449King Kentucky			#M23kwciU 2017/11/04 17:21
3450
3451"Give me people with guns, give me people with heart, give me people with fight, give me people with an inability to last more than 10 seconds in bed, give me people with a phobia of watching South Park for more than one hour, give me people with three nipples, and give me people with the need to have theories."
3452-Benjamin Franklin, probably
3453
3454==================================================
3455
3456ZEggs					#Rt8ZuRYF 2017/11/05 00:36
3457
3458Yes. UH2V is actually 10 or 11. He said it in one of his comments on PG1
3459
3460==================================================
3461
3462U HAVE 2 VOTE!!!		#oivMsWIR 2017/11/05 01:21
3463
3464My name is not in bold because I'm in a different account. If you don't believe me, check the #xxxxxxxx.
3465
3466@Hachi1
3467What?
3468
3469@danstroyer
3470The PG2 comment board was not made for posting stuff like "UH2V is 10","[insert Pastebin link here]", or PR (Pokemon-related) comments.
3471
3472Also, I think the Pokemon is kind of inappropriate so I don't think you should be posting that.
3473
3474@turtleboy19
3475Comment section = cancer & cyber-bullying.
3476
3477Things people post in the PG2C are:
3478A. Pastebin links to loads of non-PG2 related stuff f.e. (climate alarmism debunked)
3479B. UH2V is 10 or UH2V hate comments
3480C. some quotes and stuff f.e. King Kentucky's comment
3481D. Some random upload lists or Pokemon-related "words"
3482E. SPAM, jokes, Photoshopped images, etc.
3483
3484==================================================
3485
3486Tyne and wear			#5GBDuOyX 2017/11/05 04:07
3487
3488Well observed. Although you forgot to include the contents of your own comments. 
3489
3490==================================================
3491
3492King Kentucky			#M23kwciU 2017/11/05 05:35
3493
3494UH2V, you're the only one who's mentioned pastebin, hate comments, etc. We just want to talk about PG uploads about climate change, guns, etc., but there you are trying to stop us from doing what the pgcb is intended for.
3495
3496Also, there is no point to prove me otherwise because everything I say is the truth.
3497
3498==================================================
3499
3500Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/11/05 05:43
3501
3502@UH2V
3503I mean like, none of the admins have barely bothered to moderate the boards at all and we've been "off topic" for a little under a decade. The most anybody ever saw before you showed up was an insulting comment suddenly vanishing after a few days with no explanation, that combined with the odd translations around the site would make it plausible that the only real rule is "Just stop being an a$5hole for like 2 minutes while you type, gosh!" with a significant amount of redundancy for people that have never considered the prospect of that.
3504
3505==================================================
3506
3507Beandip					#SmU02I6Z 2017/11/05 06:20
3508
3509@2H2V
3510You're acting like you can't have discussion about powder game and other stuff as well. You're the one dragging down the quality of the posts here by complaining, everyone else has no problem coexisting. 
3511
3512==================================================
3513
3514U HAVE 2 VOTE!!!		#oivMsWIR 2017/11/05 07:25
3515
3516you can't even spell UH2V.
3517COMMENT SECTION = CANCER
3518
3519==================================================
3520
3521Beandip					#SmU02I6Z 2017/11/05 07:36
3522
3523@UH2v
3524I hardly see how a typo invalidates my opinion. If the comment section is cancer, it is because of you. 
3525
3526==================================================
3527
3528LB85					#6CbiPtsz 2017/11/05 08:03
3529
3530Ohhhh....So this is Everyone has been....Well..Not coming here....
3531
3532Also hi to everyone who knows me from PG2!Also,UH2V is a problem in here too?
3533
3534==================================================
3535
3536OwenDaPanda				#VYQpyVtv 2017/11/05 09:21
3537
3538Ummm, UH2V you are not a moderator. If people want to post about pokemon related stuff, let them! 
3539
3540Also, I agree with beandip. Fro. What I've seen, this comment section was fine with small arguments and such, then you came. If this is cancer, you are the tumor.
3541
3542================================================== {Topic shift 10}
3543
3544King Kentucky			#M23kwciU 2017/11/05 11:40
3545
3546Debate for 11/5/2017 - 11/11/2017
3547Do you trust your government? or Do you agree with Einstein saying time is relative?
3548I don't know why I'm doing this. Y'all start speaking another language when sh.it like this happens.
3549
3550==================================================
3551
3552amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/11/05 12:43
3553
3554Can we all just ignore this cuck and continue with this debate? If we ignore him, eventually he'll go away.
3555
3556@Zeggs
3557Yup, I figured.
3558
3559@UH2V
3560We're sick of you. Please use all 3 of your brain cells before posting comments. Or come back when you have a functioning brain.
3561
3562@TK
3563How often do comments get deleted, and wha seems to be the criteria? My dox only got "deleted" once the limit ate it up, and I've heard that comments past the limit are hidden, but still in existance. Somebody posted a link way back in 2012, but I lost it. I don't even know if it was true or not however.
3564
3565==================================================
3566
3567Beandip					#SmU02I6Z 2017/11/05 13:33
3568
3569@King Kentucky
3570Depends on the level of government. I certainly trust my local government, and to some extent the state government as they represent my interests much more accurately. I don't really trust the federal government at all, and it seems more often than not they legislate to only secure more power to themselves, rather than for the good of the citizens. 
3571
3572==================================================
3573
3574Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/11/05 14:02
3575
3576Third party links and deliberately obfuscated unicode rarely last more than a few hours, so there's probably some automated alert for the admins to go over when those get past the first filter. I remember the community WorldofText links were particularly despised for some reason.
3577
3578Beyond that, post-posting-deletions are actually pretty rare, it happened a few times in the flame wars I participated in when somebody said something particularly out-of-line but otherwise the arguments were left intact. I guess is one of the admins (my bet's on tylor) skims active conversations and removes anything too offensive for their ad-contracts to tolerate.
3579
3580==================================================
3581
3582UH2V					#oivMsWIR 2017/11/05 14:38
3583
3584https://pastebin.com/djsrjWJq
3585
3586Hi guys
3587amazingdude doesn't have a functioning brain because amazingdude is posting these ANNOYING shitty comments.
3588 
3589P.S. danstroyer doesn't have a functioning brain because danstroyer is using the P.G.2.C for Pokemon-related comments are stuff. He/she already posted comments in the P.G.2.C about Pokemon pixel arts, Pikachu, Ash Ketchum, etc.
3590 
3591Pokemon uploads are AIDS so that's why they are in the list of offensive uploads.
3592 
3593P.P.S. My new account is called ChainReactionGuy, in case you were wondering.
3594That was to stop cancer like,"Change or name unless you care about votes", and "UH2V = U HAVE 2 VAGINAS!"
3595Differences between CRG and UH2V:
3596UH2V tells people to vote and sometimes makes vote traps, CRG does not.
3597UH2V posts bad uploads, CRG will not post bad uploads.
3598UH2V posts some messages in uploads that might be offensive, CRG will not post any inappropriate content or vote scams.  
3599P.P.P.S....? Whenever I use "f.e." in the P.G.2.C, it stands for "for example."
3600
3601@Beandip
3602The comment section is cancer NOT because of me, but because of all these people are posting ANNOYING & bad comments.
3603
3604@Kk
3605Shadow master IS NOT UH2V, CHAINREACTIONGUY IS, YOU IDIOT.
3606
3607================================================== {End of PC2}
3608
3609amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/11/06 15:59
3610
3611A bit late, but oh well.
3612
3613I do trust my government. While it isn't perfect, it isn't fu,cked up enough to cause any serious concern. Trump is a walking curveball when it comes to the politcal machine. Trump has restored my faith in government by being an authentic voice in a bought out arena. But enough about trump.
3614
3615Personally I think we need a government purge. Like I said, I still trust my government, but it isn't perfect.
3616
3617One day, people will look back at us for intertwining corporations and government in the same way we look at the past for intertwining religion and government. I'd definitely prefer corporations, however.
3618
3619==================================================
3620
3621{No relevant response}
3622
3623==================================================
3624
3625amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/11/07 14:28
3626
3627Hey are we going to keep debating or are we just going to keep punching this wall (UH2V)?
3628Let's discuss taxes. Do you guys believe in flat tax? Should the rich pay more or less in taxes?
3629
3630The debate has grown too big for only one paste, it will now be split every 5k lines, and TK's comment 2017/08/28 21:14 is the divider!
3631https://pastebin.com/YZ1tugLb
3632https://pastebin.com/DbD9qcsB
3633
3634==================================================
3635
3636Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/11/07 15:36
3637
3638https://pastebin.com/Mjwq2WRE
3639
3640High-ish flat tax with more deductions based on net spending within the national borders, if the super-rich are really that burdened with paying their employees then that should make their concerns moot. It's not that the government gets money that's important afterall, but that the government provides the economy with support and needs money to do that. It also incentivizes the rich that aren't immensely burdened with paying their workers to spend lots of money in other ways, which would also help business owners and lessen their concerns. Of course, the kicker is stressing that only spending in national borders would have any effect, so no Swiss bank accounts to cheat the system- as far as the IRS would be concerned, would-be scammers still have that money.
3641
3642==================================================
3643
3644King Kentucky			#M23kwciU 2017/11/07 16:04
3645
3646oh my. why do yall keep it going. has everything not been said already
3647
3648==================================================
3649
3650Hachi1					#pdDlVqmc 2017/11/07 17:59
3651
3652I don't think income tax should exist, it makes no sense. If someone is earning lots of money, it's because "what they're doing is valued by the community", so the benefit to society occurs via their work. Another issue is that, even if income tax isn't flat, it still hurts the lowest wage earners more than anyone else - they're the ones who can't afford to pay /any/ tax.
3653
3654An undeniable fault with modern society is that your chances of success are basically determined by the circumstances you are born into. Tax should target inequality. I believe the way around this is a "wealth tax". Basically, each year you pay about 1.5% of your total worth as tax. This means students, who own nothing, or people who are working two jobs living in a rented apartment trying to make ends meet, basically pay zero tax. On the other hand, people who decide to buy golf courses or whatever pay a tonne of tax.
3655
3656The one argument against a wealth tax is "it unfairly targets the elderly - they can't even earn money anymore and yet they need to keep paying tax, and they're more likely to have savings!". A way around this is that beyond a certain age, you can stop paying annual wealth tax, and when you pass away it's up to the person who inherits (the house for example) to pay the tax.
3657
3658==================================================
3659
3660Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/11/07 21:51
3661
3662wow, no one ever thought of that before, let's implement tha
3663
3664==================================================
3665
3666Hachi1					#pdDlVqmc 2017/11/08 02:11
3667
3668Lol I'm not trying to claim it, there are some countries in europe that already have it (and that verifies that it works). In recent elections that i've followed (new zealand, uk) there's always been at least one party that wanted to have a wealth tax. 
3669
3670==================================================
3671
3672Σsigma					#dGUQeyap 2017/11/08 08:16
3673
3674@Hachi
3675Or we can tax the poor more than the rich for absolutely no reason whatsoever.
3676
3677==================================================
3678
3679amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/11/08 08:48
3680
3681https://pastebin.com/17edr9cu
3682
3683I'll state my opinion on taxes.
3684 
3685Taxes should be as low as possible. while still allowing the government to function. What money you make is YOURS, not the government's. The government should be much smart about how it spends its money. If the government can't watch its budget, we shouldn't have to foot the bill. I do fully understand that the government needs money, and taxation is how it obtains that money.
3686 
3687I believe in a flat tax. A flat tax is the fairest form of tax. Make $1000 a year, pay $100. Make $1,000,000 per year, pay $100,000. Taxing the wealthy a larger portion of their income just because they make more is morally wrong, their millions and billions belong to them, that they rightfully earned. The government doesn't deserve a higher portion of their money simply because they make more. That's like a parent saying "You have 100 pieces of candy. You don't need all of that, give me 50."
3688 
3689If the rich get to keep more of their money, they will have more to put back into the economy - trickle down economics. Increase taxes on the rich, and they will pass the increase on down to you.
3690 
3691@Esigma
3692Why are you logged in now suddenly?
3693 
3694Regressive tax (more on the poor than rich) is flat out stupid and unfair.
3695 
3696@Hachi
3697I hate income tax too, but where else would the government get their money?
3698 
3699You are simply wrong about success being based on birth conditions. While being born rich DOES increase your chances of success, its not a requirement. The good thing about America is that you can grow up dirt poor, but you have free access to education, where if you study hard, you can get into college and land a decent job. While the American dream isn't as strong as it used to be, it still is there.
3700 
3701Having a wealth tax (or any tax increase for that matter) would just encourage people to stash their money in foreign accounts, and the economy doesn't benefit from their wealth. Oh wait, what? It already happens!
3702 
3703@KK
3704Debate is fun, also trying to break the record (8 years) set by the EE debate.
3705
3706==================================================
3707
3708Beandip					#SmU02I6Z 2017/11/08 15:26
3709
3710Taxes are interesting. I've also done much less research on this topic, so my opinions aren't as well informed. I do think that Americans pay too much in taxes, and seeing as a handful of states are able to get by without charging income tax, an abolishment of income tax as a whole may be feasible. This could be achieved by reducing government spending (I'm looking mostly at military and government funded healthcare), as well as a drastic reformation of the tax codes to prevent large American based businesses from not paying taxes. 
3711
3712Also, I was a little surprised how the opinions here are fairly conservative. What political ideology do you guys subscribe to? I'm a libertarian, but so far I've voted mostly republican. 
3713
3714==================================================
3715
3716Hachi1					#pdDlVqmc 2017/11/08 17:21
3717
3718anarchofascism
3719
3720==================================================
3721
3722Tyne and wear			#5GBDuOyX 2017/11/09 01:49
3723
3724'''authoritarian''' '''socialism'''
3725
3726==================================================
3727
3728amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/11/09 12:22
3729
3730@Beandip
3731Yeah, cut spending, get the government out of healthcare, etc. Let the free market decide. Anarcho capitalism. The government's job is to protect the people and their rights, not give them free shit. Income tax should be the first tax to go.
3732
3733I identify as a republican/libertarian.
3734
3735==================================================
3736
3737Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/11/09 15:35
3738
3739A general comment mostly about wealth tax: https://pastebin.com/99pNzY8D
3740
3741I'm not sure where I am politically. I'm socially right wing and pretty neutral between authoritarian/libertarian, but with strong beliefs about it- very critical of every government I know of in the West.
3742 
3743In my opinion, wealth tax and hierarchies of dominance/skill/power are mutually exclusive. Wealth tax is like an attack/hindrance on unfettered meritocracy: it does not aim to be another system in itself and it does not supplement the current one, therefore it's transitional (in that way it may be comparable to socialism in Marxist theory, which is just considered to be a stage rather than a doctrine in itself).
3744
3745The reason for this is that there's no principle behind it. Yes, in our current system, the way that people exist in the exponentially smaller+higher brackets is not perfect - the ideal should remain the same, because it's better to strive towards that unchanging rule/ideal (rule being that if someone has even the tiniest edge over you, they have more power, creating a bell curve of smaller and smaller groups that have greater and greater privileges).
3746
3747Should the privilege of the most powerful people change? If so, I think the points of discussion ought to be: in what way does their wealth no correspond with their merits
3748
3749Meritocracy and/or markets are pretty much an all or nothing game because of how they're built around static human nature. E.g. in 'The Quants' by Scott Patterson he mentions "testosterone-fuelled competition", which is completely accurate. People are still just as much animals at the most high, distinguished, formal level of power. We respond well to these conditions just because it's our nature to compete- our instinct is to compete with the goal of being the absolute top dog even though that's unrealistic.
3750
3751This is a brutal way to live, and there are many ways to pacify it while still maintaining the natural system, but most attempts to hinder competition just end up devaluing meritorious/generative/productive behaviour, i.e. wealth tax will avert people from working, contributing, strengthening themselves.
3752 
3753If this was all total nonsense to you then I'll throw in one more analogy. In Canada, they often want 50:50 distribution of se.xes in their cabinets, why not let them? Seems like there's a huge pool of skilled people to choose from, so why not? There are plenty of people who are pretty much just as qualified, maybe just a tiny difference in their abilities, and we'd sacrifice that in exchange for equality. The main reason why this would never work is that as you climb higher and higher in power, the tiniest gain comes from an absurd amount of work. Compare with bodybuilding where someone has pretty much "capped out". In his first year he gained 14 pounds of muscle, now he works out all year to gain 2 pounds. This is mostly what fools people.
3754
3755==================================================
3756
3757amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/11/11 02:32
3758
3759@Minsheme
3760I think everything should be a full meritocracy. If race and gender truly didnt matter, then it wont matter if only white people or males are in the positions, because we're all equal. To end racism, we should try to unite as one and disregard that info when filling positions. Affirmative action and racial quotas only divide us. We just need to stop caring about race so much. 
3761
3762==================================================
3763
3764orture King				#TI3DWoRg 2017/11/11 03:21
3765
3766Physical appearance is only superficial if that's the only effect that's being measured in a controlled setting. Realistically however, not everyone acknowledges the irrelevance of physical traits on the mind and so the actual treatment of people can and will vary- causing the mentality of those affected to develop into vastly different directions because they have different challenges to overcome. A properly adaptable leadership of any sort should have a diverse background for the highest chance of success in unexpected situations. That's what people need governments for afterall, the times when things are so confusing that the average person doesn't know how to handle it on their own.
3767
3768==================================================
3769
3770amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/11/11 05:20
3771
3772@TK
3773How exactly is diversity necessary for good leadership? Isnt competency more important?
3774
3775==================================================
3776
3777Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/11/11 08:11
3778
3779Someone who's really competent with numbers isn't necessarily going to be equally good with understanding why people do things. You need multiple points of view to combat multiple complex problems.
3780
3781==================================================
3782
3783King Kentucky			#M23kwciU 2017/11/11 11:01
3784
3785and if the multiple viewpoints cant come up with a solution, they call me, cause i know the answer to everything
3786
3787==================================================
3788
3789Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/11/11 12:43
3790
3791@TK https://pastebin.com/xCRyJxwk
3792
3793I think that, for reasons you've described about our nature, governance should be impersonal. It doesn't necessarily need to be homogenised or diverse, it just needs to be able to make abstractions (i.e. "the act of considering something as a general quality or characteristic, apart from concrete realities, specific objects, or actual instances"). The reason is that this makes them impersonal and makes them work outside of their/our animal nature. It's not the members escape the natural and selfish state they're in; it's that they've abstracted ideas that are separate from that nature.
3794 
3795It's best for people to be governed coldly and mathematically, this doesn't mean it will neglect our animal/evolutionary needs and behaviours. To me that is the same as living according to a calendar and a clock (i.e. non-human things).
3796 
3797The idea that we only appreciate adversities/perspectives that we have experienced (or that we don't always appreciate those of others) shouldn't be taken into account. It implies that the ideas we form are completely limited by our emotions, which is worth considering for your average person, but should be left out of government. Emotional/evolutionary qualities like being affected by our physical appearance can be overcome by being impersonal.
3798
3799==================================================
3800
3801Adolf Hitler			#KPXCkBmN 2017/11/11 20:05
3802
3803I am the greatest leader who ever lived on the planet
3804
3805==================================================
3806
3807former powder			#7lG1fseP 2017/11/11 22:22
3808
3809Shocked that people still frequent pg comments.
3810Y'all know that powder game suks in 2017. PS your political takes are bulshlt and ya guys know it
3811
3812==================================================
3813
3814Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/11/11 23:41
3815
3816@former powder
3817Are you 12? No one here is flaunting their opinion trying to say how great it is, it's just a discussion.
3818Good for you if you don't like PG, waste more time here plox.
3819
3820==================================================
3821
3822Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/11/12 11:37
3823
3824@Minsheme
3825So the ideal government is some kind of VI-run bureaucracy? Yeah, I could see that, as long as there was a mostly ironclad way to keep the auditors/software engineers honest when looking for signs of corruption/manipulation. Otherwise you just end up with a govt.bot that gives its programmers a raise every few months to replace the senators doing the same for themselves.
3826
3827==================================================
3828
3829Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/11/12 23:14
3830
3831@TK
3832Yes, it's pretty iron-fisted. I think most people are comfortable with the idea that the general public don't know what's best for themselves, but it's important to get a balance between running things efficiently and keeping people content with the system- they want to be able to observe that it's doing its job and understand how it's being done.
3833
3834==================================================
3835
3836βBETA					#0rob4al8 2017/11/13 01:09
3837
3838So..., okay, I see that the comment board is going quite divine. 
3839
3840==================================================
3841
3842Hachi1					#pdDlVqmc 2017/11/13 03:03
3843
3844"I think most people are comfortable with the idea that the general public don't know what's best for themselves"
3845
3846I'm inclined to disagree, most people seem to believe they know what's best for themselves. E.g. all the people who believe their self diagnosis of disease is correct and doctors are wrong. Most people are really dumb like that, maybe you've surrounded yourself with semi-intelligent people and forgotten about the rest?
3847
3848==================================================
3849
3850Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/11/13 08:11
3851
3852@Hachi1
3853The reason most people are willing to accept this is that you can show them a group they perceive as less intelligent (even though the two groups' differences are pretty much idiosyncratic/happenstance most of the time) and they'll think the other side doesn't deserve a decision.
3854
3855But that's why I say it's important to get a balance- they need to feel like they have control and need to have some of their immediate desires fulfilled.
3856
3857==================================================
3858
3859amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/11/13 14:58
3860
3861@TK
3862I dont believe diversity would help with multiple POVs as much as having philosophers in the government would (which would be a good idea BTW).
3863
3864Vidkunssonn, join the debate
3865
3866==================================================
3867
3868Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/11/13 22:09
3869
3870My other comment seems evil. The government SHOULD function for the people, but if it's a technocracy getting them from the point A to point B that the people want, they're not always gonna feel comfortable with how it gets there, mostly because it's hard to be so future-oriented.
3871
3872==================================================
3873
3874Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/11/14 07:31
3875
3876@thisiscancer9132
3877Irony? Helping the homeless is very serious.
3878
3879==================================================
3880
3881amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/11/14 08:40
3882
3883@Minsheme
3884How should we help the homeless?
3885
3886==================================================
3887
3888Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/11/14 14:08
3889
3890@amazingdude
3891Since I'm too lazy too lazy to write about it in detail atm, I'll just spoil the fun and say I was kidding. Chipmunk's upload was pretty clever humour though.
3892
3893================================================== {Topic shift 11}
3894
3895amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/11/15 12:56
3896
3897So uhh, lets talk about something new now, something thats polarizing so we can actually debate and not just reinforce each others ideas.
3898What do you all think about all these sexual assault allegations?
3899
3900We should take them seriously in a court of law. An allegation is just that, an allegation. It is in no way proving the accused did something wrong, and people's lives should not be ruined by an allegation that may or may not even be true.
3901
3902Before any decision could be made, the cases should have to be settled in court.
3903
3904Debate archives! We've also been completely swallowed by the limit twice now.
3905https://pastebin.com/GybdxXbf
3906https://pastebin.com/npGJHErg
3907
3908==================================================
3909
3910Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/11/16 10:59
3911
3912I largely don't care about anything from Hollywood that isn't like, an actual movie. A celebrity being a terrible person (or not being a terrible person) isn't intrinsically different from any other random guy being those things.
3913
3914I will say that I think false accusations made with the intention of discrediting someone should be punished with at least 50% of the sentence for the supposed crime.
3915
3916==================================================
3917
3918amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/11/16 12:12
3919
3920@TK
3921I dont care about hollywood either. All this shit is getting annoying to always hear in the news.
3922Nah, if anything they should get more than the crime they tried to push on the other person, plus a penalty
3923
3924==================================================
3925
3926skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/11/16 12:36
3927
3928@AD
3929Instead of picking arguments that will never be resolved, because you care more about continuing to argue than you do about the issue itself, why don't you try discussing something you actually fundamentally care about?
3930
3931==================================================
3932
3933Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/11/16 12:59
3934
3935And when there isn't enough evidence to convict the accused, even when it actually happened?
3936
3937Some people have the power to convince the public more that they're innocent. And the current penalty for false accusations doesn't exactly motivate victims to seek justice.
3938
3939I'm not saying we should get rid of the punishment altogether. I'm just saying we should consider the motivation.
3940
3941==================================================
3942
3943Hachi1					#pdDlVqmc 2017/11/16 13:22
3944
3945@amazingdude
3946
3947https://pastebin.com/M8e3QrCP
3948
3949I disagree because rape barely ever even gets to court. I know from experience (people very close to me) who were raped, and the "justice system" is too much of a wall.
3950 
3951One girl went to the police to try and explain what happened, but she was required to "explain the details" and it was too painful for her. She tried again twice more, but each time she couldn't "provide sufficient evidence". The police said "why didn't you leave his place?". The reason was that she was in an absolutely terrible state of mind, really suicidal, and went to his place for support and he took advantage of her and raped her. She was there for support, that's why she didn't leave. The incident completely shook her up and she doesn't even have any memories of the three weeks that followed that day. How is she supposed to "provide evidence of rape" to court? Anyway, after the third attempt at talking to police, there's a policy that you don't get any more chances so the case was dropped forever.
3952 
3953Rapists get away far too easily. Court isn't the answer.
3954
3955==================================================
3956
3957Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/11/16 14:09
3958
3959What do you propose we change? There is no other systematic way to deal with that. If I were her I wouldn't want to be treated like I have no responsibility or free will.
3960
3961If anecdotes are worth sharing, I know a guy who went to jail for 4 years because this "believe the victim" mentality allowed someone resentful to mess up his life. It will only become more common if we put so much faith in people.
3962
3963==================================================
3964
3965Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/11/16 14:10
3966
3967That looks more like an argument to revise trial proceedings rather than abolish them altogether. I mean, the alternative is either immediate imprisonment on a vague suspicion or relying on sympathetic vigilantes.
3968
3969==================================================
3970
3971amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/11/16 14:55
3972
3973https://pastebin.com/RucJdyyM
3974
3975@Hachi1
3976What should we do instead? Just instantly give the accused the long di,k of the law? We have due process for a reason. I cannot imagine how painful it must be for women to recall a rape, but the accused also has rights to. If we took every allegation as if the man is definitely guilty, it gives women power to screw over someone they dont like by lying that he ra,ped her. Also, what if a rape victim cannot identify the ra,pist? Do we throw every potential suspect in prison just to make sure the real perpetrator is locked up? In your example, the situation was handled poorly, and I feel horrible for the woman who was ra,ped.
3977 
3978Let me be clear: UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES IS IT ACCEPTABLE TO PUNISH AN INNOCENT MAN FOR A CRIME HE DID NOT COMMIT. Period. This is one of the fundamental points of our country and our court system, and your proposal undermines all of it. Due process exists for a reason, and we must uphold it. Minsheme is right. Give someone an inch, they'll take a mile. There will always be human garbage trying to fuck over men they dont like by abusing the court system, and throwing someone away forever just over an unproven accusation will only give them more power. It's happening already on college campuses.
3979 
3980I'm open to a proposal that would work, but just throwing someone in jail over an accusation is not the answer.
3981
3982==================================================
3983
3984Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/11/16 23:44
3985
3986We're using a lot of "he raped her" when it also goes the other way around. And it's far more difficult for a man to accuse a woman of rape because of the stereotypes that "men are always looking for sex" and " women are always weak and innocent".
3987
3988==================================================
3989
3990amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/11/17 11:48
3991
3992@Draco
3993It's hard to find a balance between due process for everyone and giving victims the justice they deserve. When the defendent is assumed innocent until proven guilty, an inability to prove him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt means that he is innocent in the eyes of the law. While its not perfect, it's certianly better than convicting based on an unproven accusation.
3994
3995==================================================
3996
3997skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/11/18 12:40
3998
3999My question to you still stands, AD.
4000Is there any topic you actually care about? Not just something you think would start a debate. Maybe something you personally have a stake in?
4001
4002==================================================
4003
4004amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/11/18 14:21
4005
4006@Skyk
4007Climate change, date formats, guns, Trump, immigration, healthcare, metric vs imperial
4008
4009==================================================
4010
4011Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/11/18 16:13
4012
4013I don't understand that argument, "you are not actually passionate about this". This reinforces the fact that people tend to only care about issues that they have experienced / been affected by. Should decisions on those issues only be decided by the ones who happened to experience it? In my opinion, if anything, people who haven't experienced it should decide. It's a great idea to discuss issues that you don't have an emotional attachment to.
4014
4015==================================================
4016
4017skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/11/18 17:56
4018
4019@Minsheme
4020Amazingdude has said on multiple occasions that he wants to debate for the sake of maintaining a debate. That sort of motive, by nature, leads to pointless bad-faith arguments
4021
4022==================================================
4023
4024Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/11/18 23:01
4025
4026@skyk
4027Why bad faith? I understand that amazingdude proposes arguments just for the sake of arguing, but can't it be that he wants productive, stimulating discussions and to hear other perspectives? What would be an authentic way for people to start those topics on here? Should it only be by people who are stricken by or involved in those issues? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm really not sure if/why it's bad to start discussions that way. If we are focused on people's motives, egos (their personal relation to the issues), etc then I think it would become identitarian.
4028
4029==================================================
4030
4031amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/11/19 03:56
4032
4033I argue for the purpose of arguing. Its fun. Doesnt mean its in "bad faith" or I cant be passionate about it.
4034Im passionate about climate change. I only argued just for the sake of arguing.
4035
4036==================================================
4037
4038skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/11/19 04:19
4039
4040@Minsheme & AD
4041
4042"Arguing in bad faith" is when the goal of your argument is contextualized within the debate itself rather than in the subject of it.
4043
4044For example, a "bad faith" argument could be if you're arguing in order to "win" the debate, regardless of whether or not you actually believe that the side you've chosen or the points you're making are correct. If your initial goal is to have a prolonged debate, by definition your arguments will be in bad faith.
4045
4046I'm not saying you have to personally have had your life ruined by whatever you're talking about, but you shouldn't start a debate unless you actually intend to convince the other people involved or have yourself convinced by them.
4047
4048==================================================
4049
4050Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/11/19 05:10
4051
4052@skyk
4053I don't think winning an argument means anything but I will present beliefs I don't personally hold for the sake of devil's advocate and challenging people. You could call that bad faith. I don't expect anyone to have their mind changed, but to explain their beliefs on a more and more elemental level - make a more and more robust argument for themselves as they're challenged as much as possible - then I can decide if it makes sense to me.
4054Most of what I learn from discussions/arguments is what other people believe and why. I think it's a great idea to discuss like you're a ghost / non-existent person.
4055
4056==================================================
4057
4058skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/11/19 06:17
4059
4060Presenting beliefs that you don't actually believe in is literally the definition of a "bad faith argument".
4061
4062==================================================
4063
4064Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/11/19 06:51
4065
4066Arguing in bad faith is only a problem if there's a specific important point to the debate that bad faith would undermine. Frankly, I'd be surprised if anybody here was deeply involved in city-level policy. If the point is personal growth through changing and refining one's core values then why not?
4067
4068==================================================
4069
4070skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/11/19 06:55
4071
4072If your arguments aren't things you believe, and you don't expect anyone else to believe them, then the point is not "personal growth through changing and refining one's core values", it's intellectual one-upmanship.
4073
4074==================================================
4075
4076Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/11/19 07:22
4077
4078Same thing, animal minds need some kind of goal or opponent to grow in response to and overcome. It's just more productive to compete against one another for mutual benefit than to stagnate alone. Similar systems of challenge leading to growth and isolation leading to stagnation are evident all over the world at every point in history.
4079
4080==================================================
4081
4082skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/11/19 08:34
4083
4084@TK
4085
4086Show me a peer-reviewed article with evidence that humans are evolved to grow by having pointless arguments to make themselves look smart, and I'll agree that bad-faith arguments are adaptively beneficial.
4087
4088Socrates is one of the most classic examples of an individual who challenged people intellectually through debate to promote the progress of human knowledge. He didn't just go up to people and say "what's a good topic to debate?", he picked topics of extreme importance to both sides of the argument and their society in general, and then challenged deep-seated concepts through intense investigation. In fact, he actually got a bit too serious in his choice of topics, and was killed by the government because of it.
4089
4090==================================================
4091
4092amazÑ–ngdude				#aJcMiLNA 2017/11/19 09:02
4093
4094I believe in everything I argue. I just argue for fun. You cant change minds over the internet.
4095
4096==================================================
4097
4098Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/11/19 11:03
4099
4100"one-upmanship" how? not writing with your ego/passions involved is the opposite of wanting to best anyone.
4101
4102==================================================
4103
4104Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/11/19 11:04
4105
4106@skyk
4107Evolution is literally called "survival of the fittest" and you're asking me for proof that competition is a requirement?
4108Also if the debates serves a purpose than it can't be called pointless, as long as somebody feels like they're growing I call it a success.
4109
4110@amazingdude
4111Not totally true, I changed your opinion about the safety of nuclear energy and I've honestly never put much thought into the specifics of immigration law until a few months ago.
4112
4113==================================================
4114
4115skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/11/19 11:17
4116
4117"Fittest" means the one who best fits their habitat, not "fit" as in strong. Natural selection only applies to a trait if the trait gives a substantial benefit to survival and reproduction, and wasting energy trying to prove intelligence without actually making progress toward a solution is certainly not adaptive in that regard. As a trait, it only exists because human society has reached a point where natural selection no longer applies.
4118
4119And what purpose exactly do these debate serve? Amazingdude said they're for fun. If they're only meant to be recreational, then I guess they do serve their purpose, but they sure aren't promoting human evolution.
4120
4121@minsheme
4122Do you honestly believe Amazingdude asking people to debate him has nothing to do with ego?
4123
4124==================================================
4125
4126READ VAR("A")[0]		#1CfotduJ 2017/11/19 13:24
4127
4128Looks like he got the debate he was asking for lol.
4129
4130==================================================
4131
4132skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/11/19 13:32
4133
4134That's because this IS something I actually care about.
4135
4136==================================================
4137
4138Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/11/19 14:35
4139
4140Natural selection totally applies to human society, just not on an individual level. It was the key concept behind every conflict leading up to the balancing act of M.A.D. and all the proxy wars therein.
4141
4142I can't speak for anybody else but I've been doing this for several years and the most valuable thing I've gotten from it is a glimpse of different perspectives that I can leverage for a greater understanding of "non-natural" sciences like politics and economics.
4143
4144==================================================
4145
4146Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/11/19 17:05
4147
4148@skyk
4149It's an appeal to motive, but I don't see why it matters even if it's true. To me it implies you want to one-up someone but want arguments to have an honour code. Whether we give authentic arguments or not, you either recognise something as challenging / informative or not.
4150
4151To me there will always be social Darwinism. What we have now is dysgenic, but that just means we "avoided" selection by displacing its ills. Allowing non-contributing, draining people to live is just sweeping the problem under the rug (the problem of being burdened to get rid of them). Something will counterbalance the fact that this tries to destroy all need for hierarchies of skill/strength/intelligence. Either weakness is punished/ended or the entire ecosystem suffers perniciously.
4152
4153==================================================
4154
4155skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/11/20 01:00
4156
4157https://pastebin.com/YW3iehfB
4158
4159@TK
4160what you've just said is actually a textbook example of a bad faith argument. Your statement that natural selection applies to human society on a macro level, whether or not it's actually true, has nothing to do with the original statement you were trying to make. It has no relation to whether or not certain forms of debate *between individuals* is beneficial, and does nothing to actually approach a conclusion to the original argument. When a person enters a debate with the intention to "win" it, more often than not they bring up irrelevant arguments that do nothing but derail the whole subject.
4161 
4162@Minsheme
4163
4164You were the one who brought up motive in the first place, if motive doesn't matter.
4165
4166Your point about social darwinism is very naive. It ignores the point that net altruistic behavior is actually more beneficial to a population than hierarchical strength is for the individual. Community altruism is, in fact, one of the most significant principles in the development of the human race, with strong evidence showing that individuals you may consider "weak" were supported in communities as far back as the paleolithic era. For example, the remains of many individuals have been found to indicate that they lived among communities for decades with disabilities preventing them from hunting.
4167
4168Again, this is just a tangent from the actual discussion, but I'm willing to take the time to explain it because I've spent many years studying the evolution of behaviour, so I personally dislike the so-called concept of "social darwinism" being used against the "weak".
4169
4170==================================================
4171
4172Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/11/20 04:44
4173
4174I think you misunderstood what I was going for, I was agreeing that natural selection was no longer applying to individuals because human social structures redirect what would otherwise be a fatal cost. But it's still very much a part of our collective thought process because basically every war has been fought in an effort to gain the loser's resources or to keep a predatory state from getting too powerful. To that end we've "evolved" sticks to hit the enemy, armor to protect against the enemy's sticks, sharper sticks, harder armor, etc. Any state that didn't follow along was inevitably conquered by another that did. And because it's part of our thought process I figure it can be harnessed in another, less violent way- such as debate- to advance the individual, because that particular niche isn't currently filled otherwise.
4175
4176==================================================
4177
4178Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/11/20 04:52
4179
4180Where did I bring up motive? It implies I care about someone's character. I don't think I brought up anything new, you were talking about whether or not AD "cares" so I addressed that.
4181
4182No one prior to the last few centuries had an enforced, principled reason like "right to life". It's also different now because we breed and facilitate empty vessels who live to suffer, as well as keep them alive.
4183
4184Only family/partners care about them, not community. It is now the community who suffers so that this person can live a drifting, pointless life.
4185
4186What are some examples of people who were unable to contribute (yet receiving reward as if they did) being beneficial for a community? Is this about some kind of moral fabric? And how did they contribute without hunting?
4187
4188All human achievement and all culture comes from someone climbing a dominance hierarchy. What is there to do in life for people who don't serve a role in these hierarchies anyway?
4189
4190If a society is truly in a state of cooperation, then as an individual I stand to gain even more than before by taking the selfish, exploitative route.
4191
4192================================================== {Topic shift 12}
4193
4194Popscat39				#wcvdsEaB 2017/11/23 09:40
4195
4196King Kentucky, please don't curse. There are kids that play this game. But to say what I came for, thanks guys, I was able to make it send. Turns out, you need to wait for 2 comments to come after your 2 comments.
4197
4198So am I a terrible person for not wanting people cursing on a website that kids play on? You don't really have a leg to stand on. Please just don't do it. Even 100bit, where people argued about Nazism and Swastikas, nobody cursed.
4199
4200==================================================
4201
4202Shadow_Master86			#NCcaJoit 2017/11/23 11:15
4203
4204i dont mind saying shit, fuck, or bitch so im on kk's side. sorry
4205
4206==================================================
4207
4208Kek						#8J7PPYd0 2017/11/23 13:19
4209
4210So you'd rather people talk about Nazism than drop an F bomb? Come on dude
4211
4212==================================================
4213
4214skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/11/23 13:48
4215
4216Please don't do either.
4217
4218==================================================
4219
4220βBETA					#0rob4al8 2017/11/24 01:09
4221
4222*rubbing hands together* Where is this going?
4223
4224==================================================
4225
4226Popscat39				#wcvdsEaB 2017/11/24 01:54
4227
4228I apologize, I should've given you the backstory. Saturn500, one of the users, was accusing people of antisemitism because of Happy Merchants that they were drawing. Regardless of this argument, they were polite and never cursed. However, Saturn500 started to lose his cool after a while. Nobody was saying Nazism was right, but they WERE saying that Happy Merchants aren't antisemitic.
4229
4230==================================================
4231
4232Tyne and wear			#5GBDuOyX 2017/11/24 07:04
4233
4234100 bit has basically crashed and burned. 
4235
4236==================================================
4237
4238Popscat39				#LkqlJljp 2017/11/24 10:33
4239
4240Tyne and Wear, It's definitely gotten better. Saturn500 has left, people are destroying the Happy Merchants.
4241
4242Now to KK. I'd like to point out the fact that you used curse words REGARDLESS of this line. "Use appropriate expressions." Not to mention, I've been respecting you the entire time, and what do you do? go out of your way to curse me out in 100bit.
4243
4244==================================================
4245
4246Shadow_Master86			#NCcaJoit 2017/11/24 12:05
4247
4248ok yeah me cussing was my fault and im sorry. i should have been better behaved and i have adhd and so it got control of me and made me write that.
4249
4250==================================================
4251
4252King Kentucky			#M23kwciU 2017/11/24 12:59
4253
4254not cussing doesn't mean you're respecting me tf
4255
4256==================================================
4257
4258Popscat39				#LkqlJljp 2017/11/25 00:46
4259
4260>I apologize
4261>King Kentucky, please don't curse.
4262>Please just don't do it.
4263I'm so disrespectful.
4264
4265==================================================
4266
4267King Kentucky			#M23kwciU 2017/11/25 01:59
4268
4269<Popscat, you gave me attention
4270<You are fu.cked
4271<I do accept your apology though.
4272You are indeed.
4273
4274==================================================
4275
4276skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/11/25 05:40
4277
4278Regardless of how much you respect each other individually, please show general consideration for the members of the comment boards who are uncomfortable with cursing, particularly the younger ones.
4279
4280==================================================
4281
4282Popscat39				#LkqlJljp 2017/11/25 05:56
4283
4284THANKS skyk, at least someone has a brain. I've given up trying to stay calm against KK. Also, that last line was a crazy thing called sarcasm.
4285
4286==================================================
4287
4288ChainReactionGuy		#hXuTB7mO 2017/11/25 13:03
4289
4290I installed a profanity filter, so that I can't see any swear words people post. I can only see asterisks if people post "fuck", "shit",etc.
4291
4292==================================================
4293
4294King Kentucky			#M23kwciU 2017/11/25 14:19
4295
4296honestly, in two or three more years (idk how old yall are), yall aint gonna give a damn about swear words
4297
4298==================================================
4299
4300Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/11/25 23:24
4301
4302I wrote a longwinded comment about this but thought it wasn't worth posting. Children will experience cussing if they want it. Suppressing it (rather than giving them an up front reason not to do it) will probably make them more curious. That being said, it's insane to let children use unrestricted internet, the same as letting them associate with (or be) a bad apple. The principle you're making is "expose them to all the worst filth since there's a chance they'll encounter it anyway".
4303
4304==================================================
4305
4306Popscat39				#LkqlJljp 2017/11/26 01:52
4307
4308@Minsheme
4309I've been reading the archive of many comments and there was a 2nd grader (He said it) commenting there. Kid's are naive, so they'll think,"Oh, that's fine for me to say?" and say it. I know 100% that there are rules against profanity in elementary school and that it's enforced because I've watched the consequences of cursing (It wasn't me, shut up). I have proof that there are really young kids in the comments. Not to mention, IF YOU SAID IT, you'd be reported immediately by other students because they themselves thought that they were wrong. Secondary school is where it relaxes on the rules and the foodgates release, but gaiv, the 2nd grader, still had 5 years until that time. My personal rule is, let them learn them, but don't let them say it.
4310
4311==================================================
4312
4313READ VAR("A")[0]		#Cf6sIWc6 2017/11/26 02:28
4314
4315Does anyone know the list of blocked words in the comments? Is it the same as in the game?
4316
4317==================================================
4318
4319Hachi1					#pdDlVqmc 2017/11/26 04:45
4320
4321@READ
4322nah the blocked words are slightly different. In the game you can't type email addresses or website addresses, but you can in the comments.
4323
4324==================================================
4325
4326amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/11/26 10:55
4327
4328Honestly, people who get so worked up about swearing are fucking dumb. Kids hear it anyway nowadays, and its not hard to google it
4329UH2V, Grow up. You dont need a filter to block out words.
4330
4331==================================================
4332
4333Σsigma					#dGUQeyap 2017/11/26 11:33
4334
4335Also, I've recently realized that the only thing that makes bad words bad is that they are considered bad by society. If we loosen our strain on the meaning of bad words, there's no reason we shouldn't let children hear/use them because they wouldn't be negative anymore. Think about it: there's nothing actually wrong with using them say, in an empty room, right? In fact, I've heard that cursing helps relieve stress and frustration, and that's a much better outlet than violence, for example.
4336
4337==================================================
4338
4339Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/11/26 11:57
4340
4341You could say that aside from social constructs, there's nothing inherently wrong with not bathing, or sleeping around with countless people. They can both easily be done without negative consequences. But they are not independent of dangerous/unhealthy lifestyle.
4342
4343The very reason that cursing relieves stress is that it's "reserved" for dire situations. It's a social construct that makes it effective at relieving stress. There is no way to "normalise" it, because its only use is the fact that it's regarded poorly.
4344
4345Being civilised in general is a social construct, we just do it because we are future-oriented enough to know that being civilised is better than being impulsive animals. Not cursing shows restraint which is civilised/decent.
4346
4347==================================================
4348
4349ChainReactionGuy		#hXuTB7mO 2017/11/27 02:59
4350
4351https://pastebin.com/T40kpiCp
4352
4353==================================================
4354
4355amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/11/27 15:05
4356
4357I noticed a comment (#l0aS2Xd2 2017/11/22 01:55) mentioning comment removals.
4358What were the removed comments about? Moderation is almost nonexistant here.
4359
4360@UH2V
4361Thats the fault of all censors. Blocking "ass" makes it impossible to say "grass", for example. The simple solution is to check if there is a space before and after a censored word, but many censors dont employ it. Personally, I'm against word censors, as all it does is make kids curious about what the word means.
4362
4363I first learned what cum was when I was playing a game and typed "Cum 2 my place 4 goldz!!", only to have it censored. Ironically, a censor taught me about a word it was supposed to protect me against.
4364
4365==================================================
4366
4367Dracobo					#iWOBESYY 2017/11/27 23:21
4368
4369@Minsheme
4370I didn't mean that a bad word's purpose was to relieve stress. I'm saying that it can be used to do that at the moment, but once it becomes a "regular word", either no one will care enough to say it or people will say it because it's "one of those things you say" in that situation. Either way, there's nothing wrong with it. And even the latter might not live long.
4371
4372==================================================
4373
4374amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/11/28 13:00
4375
4376@Draco
4377Yup. Meaning is determinied by use, not the dictionary. Look at how black people reclaimed the n word. Then we'll just find another offensive word, and so on. Its language evolution.
4378
4379New archives!
4380Part 1:https://pastebin.com/Sm2Actvf
4381Part 2:https://pastebin.com/mmAXKVhC
4382
4383==================================================
4384
4385{No relevant response}
4386
4387================================================== {Topic shift 13}
4388
4389amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/11/30 15:15
4390
4391Anything left to debate, or did it die out this time?
4392Nah, lets talk about Healthcare now. Obamacare was a failure.
4393
4394==================================================
4395
4396skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/11/30 15:16
4397
4398Does the soul exist?
4399
4400==================================================
4401
4402Σsigma					#dGUQeyap 2017/11/30 15:18
4403
4404I don't see why it would.
4405
4406==================================================
4407
4408Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/11/30 15:32
4409
4410I think it's made out of bosons n sheeit
4411
4412==================================================
4413
4414Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/11/30 16:49
4415
4416Depends on your definition, there's obviously a body of contextual sensory information that gets stored "somewhere" in the brain that can be clearly remembered decades after first being compiled despite the original "machinery" of the brain having long since been replaced by other cells, if that's a soul then which is the important part? The memory itself or the cells that contain it? Both? I'd say just the memory but that raises disturbing questions about dementia and other memory-affecting illnesses like "Would I be less of a person if I had this?"
4417
4418==================================================
4419
4420skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/12/01 06:34
4421
4422@TK
4423That's assuming that "soul" is equivalent to "memory" or "identity", which I don't think is entirely true. I think a soul is the source of one's subjective experience. If you look into the explanatory gap (AKA the "hard question of consciousness"), you'll see more about why a fully material explanation isn't yet complete.
4424
4425==================================================
4426
4427amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/12/01 08:32
4428
4429The soul does not exist. When you die, you die. Nothing more to it.
4430
4431==================================================
4432
4433skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/12/01 08:57
4434
4435How do you know?
4436
4437==================================================
4438
4439Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/12/01 10:11
4440
4441Your personality dies, it's unknown what happens to your consciousness.
4442
4443==================================================
4444
4445skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/12/01 12:25
4446
4447@Minsheme
4448Good to keep in mind that distinction. 
4449
4450==================================================
4451
4452Coriander95				#YKJFzRJL 2017/12/01 13:29
4453
4454I am depressed. I do not know what to do. I am going to kill myself on April 24th 2017. Any suggestions as to why I should be alive? 
4455
4456==================================================
4457
4458King Kentucky			#M23kwciU 2017/12/01 13:40
4459
4460For one, April 24th has already passed. Unless, you're from the future and your time machine messed up without you realized it, and you believe it is April 23rd. Is that it? That must be it; I don't know why I asked.
4461
4462==================================================
4463
4464Choconyan				#IJ3CAMHm 2017/12/01 14:10
4465
4466How did this come to talkin about death and suicide what did i miss
4467
4468==================================================
4469
4470amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/12/01 15:06
4471
4472https://pastebin.com/TWU8mZwB
4473
4474@Coriander95
4475Maybe you shouldnt use internet explorer to post your comments.
4476 
4477@Minsheme
4478What I believes happen is that you just cease to exist. The chemical processes that run your brain stop when you die, as you rot to death. I assume it would be like a permanent, dreamless sleep, like before you were born. I have no way to know however, I'm just going based on prior experience (before I was born)
4479
4480==================================================
4481
4482skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/12/01 15:07
4483
4484The fact that you have no memory prior to your birth doesn't prove that there's no such thing as an immaterial consciousness.
4485
4486==================================================
4487
4488Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/12/02 03:02
4489
4490@amazingdude
4491I would agree, but we don't know what consciousness is or whether or not it's a material thing.
4492
4493==================================================
4494
4495Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/12/02 06:10
4496
4497I feel like if there was a section of the brain that was itself the consciousness instead of a complicated tangle of neurons throughout, we would have found the consciousness by now. It can't be a material object. What happens when we die? Does it just sit there? Material things can't pass through other material things. I guess if skyk is right, consciousness is material, because our subjective experience isn't anything more than what the rest of the brain is.
4498
4499==================================================
4500
4501skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/12/02 07:11
4502
4503Subjective experience may not be a material element of the brain. The "philosophical zombie" thought experiment is an interesting investigation of this.
4504
4505==================================================
4506
4507amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/12/02 12:53
4508
4509@Minsheme
4510What would consiousness be other than a material thing? Energy? In that case, when you die, you just stop existing, because that energy leaves the body. I just dont see how anything except matter, particles, or energy can result in consiousness
4511
4512Or its some weird ass quantum physics shit.
4513
4514==================================================
4515
4516skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/12/02 16:33
4517
4518https://pastebin.com/Szbkm0DP
4519
4520It may exist in a form totally unknown to contemporary science, for all we know. All we know for now is that it isn't measurable by any conventional means.
4521 
4522https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_problem_of_consciousness
4523
4524==================================================
4525
4526Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/12/02 21:48
4527
4528I don't really get how seeing in color is such a huge problem for understanding consciousness. I mean, color more or less corresponds to specific wavelengths of light but there's no reason to think anyone is really seeing the same colors corresponding to those wavelengths. Why wouldn't the brain just fabricate an obvious difference between high frequencies like "blue" and low frequencies like "red" where none would otherwise exist?
4529
4530==================================================
4531
4532danstroyer				#ODqTK59b 2017/12/03 00:11
4533
4534so everybody is contemplating life now.....
4535
4536==================================================
4537
4538skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/12/03 04:24
4539
4540@TK
4541The issue is the difference between the base sensory input of the light, and the subjective experience of color. Of course, color is just a single example.
4542
4543==================================================
4544
4545Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/12/03 09:53
4546
4547I only read pretty much the introduction to the philosophical zombie, but I don't understand why we aren't all philosophical zombies. I guess that's because I believe that there is nothing but material stuff up there.
4548
4549>color
4550It's a very difficult question to answer (obviously), but how we perceive things in general is a product of evolution. Evolution gave us the ability to differentiate between two types of things via a sense. How do they appear to the senser? It could be anything, they just have to be different. And lo, perception was born.
4551
4552==================================================
4553
4554skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/12/03 10:17
4555
4556@Dracobot
4557The fact that you have your own individual and subjective perception (which only you know is true) is proof (to only yourself) that you are not a philosophical zombie. If everyone was a p-zombie, there would be no difference between how each person sees colour, because no one would "see" colour, their bodies would just chemically respond to different wavelengths of light with no subjective experience of it.
4558
4559==================================================
4560
4561Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/12/03 12:08
4562
4563About p-zombies: you could say that, since everyone has about the same composition as you (as far as you know) and since they show self-awareness through things like p-zombies and cogito ergo sum, it's highly likely they're self-conscious.
4564
4565I don't know this topic very well. To me, there are two ways to negate the above: prove that your perception is proof of your consciousness (everyone else's is unprovable) or prove that there is universal consciousness (in a way, that is as if no one has a be-all-end-all consciousness with a lifespan). I'm interested what you guys think of that.
4566
4567==================================================
4568
4569Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/12/03 22:35
4570
4571@skyk
4572Still seems like a non-problem to me. Inputs from the nerves are basically in binary with firing/nonfiring states, subconscious brain receives and edits inputs into an immediately understandable suite of sights/sounds/touches/etc based on relative intensity of signals, conscious mind has an experience and acts accordingly.
4573
4574==================================================
4575
4576skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/12/04 03:13
4577
4578@TK
4579That explanation suffers from the homunculus fallacy of infinite regress. By treating the "conscious mind" as a distinct entity that experiences things based on the input from the brain, you don't solve the hard problem, you just shrink it.
4580https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homunculus_argument
4581
4582==================================================
4583
4584Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/12/04 04:13
4585
4586This is a good video about how consciousness creates reality, and the hurdles in defining an objective material reality. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8n5GD69wFOA
4587
4588==================================================
4589
4590Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/12/04 07:31
4591
4592@skyk
4593The page you cited acknowledges that it's only infinitely regressive if there's nothing like a soul to ground it. Which brings us back to the original argument of whether one's body of memories and opinions counts as a soul- I still think it does.
4594
4595==================================================
4596
4597skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/12/04 07:51
4598
4599It says that it's only infinitely regressive if there's nothing like an *immaterial* soul to ground it. You can't just say that the brain is the soul to solve the problem unless you can somehow argue how the brain can have subjective experience without regression.
4600
4601==================================================
4602
4603Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/12/04 14:52
4604
4605@skyk
4606That's the illusion. I could do the same thing to your argument: if it's "proof", to what is it actually proving? I am a thing, making appropriate reactions to you. My senses are driving these reactions. Sight is just a different form of touch (any sense is a form of any other sense, but touch is the most basic to me). Perception isn't really anything other than the detection of differences. Red is "red" to me because it's what my brain assigned to it. Your brain, since your first moments and/or genetic makeup are different than mine, probably assigned a different interpretation, one that might be the same as what I understand to be blue, or some color I've never experienced before.
4607
4608Machines (and I guess all things in general) detect differences, so they experience individual perceptions, but they don't have a soul (unless you go by your definition, in which case I guess they do in a way that isn't familiar to us).
4609
4610==================================================
4611
4612skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/12/04 15:12
4613
4614@Dracobot
4615I am a neuroscientist. I am well aware of the material mechanisms between external stimuli and a change of behaviour, but these steps at no point include an explanation for subjective experience. You are correct that machines react physically to their environment, and in fact I have no way of knowing whether or not machines, or other living things for that matter, have consciousness. All I know is that I do have a consciousness which cannot explainably be reduced to the chemical reactions that drive my behaviour, even if it is clearly linked to it. For the sake of this discussion, I can assume that you have a consciousness that is fundamentally similar, if different in experience, or I can imagine that you don't, and that all of your actions are mere chemical responses, but I have no way to materially explain the difference between the two potential states. Do you?
4616
4617==================================================
4618
4619King Kentucky			#M23kwciU 2017/12/04 15:13
4620
4621oh skyk, if youre a neuroscientist, then im a human
4622
4623==================================================
4624
4625skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/12/04 15:25
4626
4627You want me to tell you about α-synuclein genes' role in sporadic Parkinson's disease or something?
4628
4629==================================================
4630
4631LK						#K0p4mGlm 2017/12/05 03:37
4632
4633Skyk, you can't tell me what I already know. I mean you can but there's little benefit
4634
4635==================================================
4636
4637Σsigma					#dGUQeyap 2017/12/05 12:59
4638
4639@skyk
4640https://pastebin.com/8EAzxak3
4641
4642@skyk
4643You realize you're using your brain (do you agree that cognitivity is fully material?) to explain subjective experience, right? Can something like that explain it? I don't think so. It's like trying to comprehend higher-dimensional geometry; the brain is a three-dimensional object, so good luck with that.
4644 
4645"these steps at no point include an explanation for subjective experience."
4646I'm tempted to say that there is no "subjective experience" at all, but that may be pushing it a bit. Like I said, it's an illusion. I'm just thinking that you're making the assumption that there is actually something experiencing it when there might not be. You say it doesn't explain it, I think it makes perfect sense. I'm not really sure how else to say it.
4647 
4648"All I know is that I do have a consciousness which cannot explainably be reduced to the chemical reactions that drive my behaviour, even if it is clearly linked to it."
4649Be careful with the word "know". Remember the discussion about that? And this time I think it's possible you're wrong. You said it's impossible to prove, and I understand that, but how do you *know* it's not an illusion? You have a working knowledge of the brain. If you knew that everything was material, you would have said so. If you knew that there was something like a functioning consciousness, you would have said so. In both cases, we would no longer be having this discussion and you would be super rich and famous for having solved one of the toughest questions of all time. But you don't truly know. Like the rest of us, all you have to work with is what you are given, but if you question even that, you no longer have anything and know nothing. Based on what I have been given, I believe that our understanding of a consciousness is impossible because for thousands of years we have yet to find evidence for it other than "I think, therefore I am". Because of that, it makes sense to us that a consciousness somehow exists, so we perpetuate that belief (but we all know what happens to some traditional beliefs as scientific knowledge expands). I've always been a "question ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING" type of person (different than a cynic, because I do believe that some things are true after carefully weighing their validity), and maybe you are too, so from the two options of whether or not a consciousness exists in our minds, I think it's more likely that it doesn't.
4650 
4651"I have no way to materially explain the difference between the two potential states. Do you?"
4652To that I say, definitely not. "Definitely" because you imply that there is no material difference between the two before you ask the question. If I understand correctly, I can reword your question to be "Can you explain what is different between material and not material in terms of materiality?" Obviously the answer is "no" because it is impossible to compare a characteristic that one by definition does not have.
4653
4654==================================================
4655
4656skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/12/05 14:23
4657
4658Remember that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. The fact that there's no evidence for consciousness (or rather, that consciousness is self-evident only within an individual) only indicates that it is not measurable by any conventional means. I am easily aware of my own consciousness, because awareness IS consciousness. Even if everything I experience can conceivably be illusionary, the one thing that is impossible to deny is the fundamental experience itself.
4659
4660==================================================
4661
4662Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/12/06 00:18
4663
4664But it suggests it more than when you're not looking for it at all. I know that there is a possibility that it could exist. Maybe it's stronger than I realize. It's just my judgment on the evidence that I know of.
4665
4666I think of awareness as the detection of differences, so according to that statement that is consciousness to me, and that means we are no different than a regular object.
4667
4668Ah, I knew you were going to say something about the illusion. It's not a great word to use, but it's the best that I have. What I'm saying is when you think about your detection of differences, you can't explain it, so you try to use something immeasurable to do so, and as that establishes your belief, it makes more and more sense to you. When you think of a subjective experience, you have a choice in sense. Do you choose sight? It's tough to understand what I'm saying when you're using sight to comprehend it because sight is everything to you (if you're blind, I apologize). You experience a detection of differences. Your mind interprets the information in a very specific way. That is the perception, and it makes you think that there's something else going on other than the detection of differences.
4669
4670==================================================
4671
4672Jackphantomhive			#kAV2Q8Tt 2017/12/06 07:34
4673
4674You guys are still going at this? It's getting a bit pathetic really,
4675
4676==================================================
4677
4678Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/12/06 07:48
4679
4680No one cares what you think, nerd.
4681
4682==================================================
4683
4684Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/12/06 09:52
4685
4686@Jackphantomhive
4687What do you mean? It's fun. I'm not debating for the sake of prolonging it. I'm debating because I have an opposing beliefs to skyk's and I choose to share my argument because it's more entertaining than not saying anything.
4688
4689==================================================
4690
4691amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/12/07 13:58
4692
4693@Skyk
4694For all we know, we might just be consious computers simulating life forms.
4695
4696==================================================
4697
4698skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/12/07 14:11
4699
4700@amazingdude
4701What does that prove?
4702
4703==================================================
4704
4705danstroyer				#YcuLxC9z 2017/12/08 00:59
4706
4707I for one think we are not computers because if we were computers would we bleed? computers might like bleed sparks or whatever or circuts but not blood.
4708oh I cant believe I started running in this rediculus arguement
4709
4710==================================================
4711
4712ThePowderSmith			#VYQpyVtv 2017/12/08 01:32
4713
4714Unless we are computer programs in a huge simulation.
4715
4716==================================================
4717
4718skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/12/08 05:27
4719
4720@danstroyer
4721It's possible, albeit unlikely, that our perception of our bodies, including blood, is simulated by some complex computer system.
4722
4723==================================================
4724
4725danstroyer				#2uWDQjDV 2017/12/08 06:18
4726
4727please no more physics and contemplating life and argueing about stuff my brain hurts cant you use all of those smarts and build stuff on scratch like a really complicated something or other
4728
4729==================================================