pmk5NN0v

1Paul upgraded the group to a supergroup
2
3Pauladmin
4https://www.bitcoinabc.org/2020-02-15-miner-fund/
5www.bitcoinabc.org
6On the Miner Infrastructure Funding Plan
7Recently Jiang Zhuoer of BTC.TOP announced the intention to create an Infrastructure Funding Plan (IFP) for Bitcoin Cash. This plan set off much discu...
8Add anyone in here who wants to join the effort to stop this major change to Bitcoin Cash.
9Marius Kjærstad joined the group
10
11Pauladmin
12HI @mkjaerstad. I assume you oppose this change like many others in the community?
13
14Marius Kjærstad
15Yes
16
17Pauladmin
18I honestly am astounded that proponents of this change can't see how bad this is going to be.
19
20Marius Kjærstad
21People are different I suppose.
22
23Pauladmin
24I think if this comes to the point of being a contentious fork the it will be quite different to the BCH/BSV fork.
25Joey B. Ho Lee Fuk joined the group
26
27Marius Kjærstad
28Yes, but I don't think it will end in a fork.
29Collin #SaveTheOrphans :man::woman::girl::boy: joined the group
30thomas vandengoden joined the group
31thomas vandengoden
32ohh, you missed the opportunity to call the group "not a tax" :)
33
34Joey B. Ho Lee Fuk
35Hi @PWasensteiner I was wondering if BCA could get behind this opposing this ridiculous move by Amaury
36thomas vandengoden
37then again, sarcasm doesn't seem to work on Internet.. so add an /s
38
39Pauladmin
40thomas vandengoden
41then again, sarcasm doesn't seem to work on Internet.. so add an /s
42You're probably right.
43Joey B. Ho Lee Fuk
44Hi @PWasensteiner I was wondering if BCA could get behind this opposing this ridiculous move by Amaury
45:wave:
46How's it going @CollinEnstad? Long time no speak.
47
48Collin #SaveTheOrphans :man::woman::girl::boy:
49yo!
50time to get the memes ready
51thomas vandengoden
52Collin #SaveTheOrphans :man::woman::girl::boy:
53time to get the memes ready
54?
55
56Collin #SaveTheOrphans :man::woman::girl::boy:
57[? Sticker]
58Alexander Levin joined the group
59
60Alexander Levinadmin
61hi @peterrizun
62Andrew joined the group
63
64Alexander Levinadmin
65hi @AndrewStone
66Andrew
67hi
68
69Alexander Levinadmin
70i guess we BU now
71Andrew
72obviously based on the Bitcoin Unlimited BUIP that I proposed, I am against this tax
73TBH, the performance of BCH has been poor
74(and yes I very much do have skin in the game)
75aside from being not-what-we-signed-up-for in terms of a free voluntary currency, it stops the capitalist process from working
76a capitalist process which to be completely frank is in the process of eliminating either ABC or their leadership.
77
78Pauladmin
79https://bitco.in/forum/threads/buip143-refuse-the-coinbase-tax.25512/
80
81Bitcoin Forum
82BUIP143: Refuse the Coinbase Tax
83BUIP143: Refuse the coinbase tax
84Submitted by: Andrew Stone
85Date: 2020/01/27
86
87In this BUIP I am asking you to make the most important decision in the...
88Andrew
89people say "well you have money so that's why you are against"
90but that's not true — I'd go into a minimal dev mode (maintenance mode) before breaking the implicit contract with BCHers by instituting a mandatory tax
91its just not true that software requires vast $ to maintain.  Its a part time job to apply security patches and port to new versions of extremely stable OSes like linux.
92But we all know that that is not what would happen anyway.
93for example SD offered 1000BCH (paid out slowly) for simply increasing the unconf limit
94T OG:zap:$Pleb joined the group
95Andrew
96The full node devs need to work with, not blatently ignore or even work against the companies who are directly interfacing with users.
97a couple of SD like offers and the full node dev is funded.
98So for me, this is about not letting a "too big to fail" situation happen in BCH.
99Propping up a slow failure will result in a slightly faster slow failure.  Yes I get that BCH is off its lows so this argument doesn't have extreme emotional impact.  But the halving, the coronavirus, and the general rise of crypto is most likely causing that.  Making this argument now is kind of better — really think about it outside of a panic mode and realise its truth irrespective of minor ups and downs.
100.
101Looking a fork directly in the face would mean we need to decide a direction for our fork.  From day 1 in BCH, I argued that we needed to use the hard fork to deploy awesome tech to fight the BTC network effect.  And now I'll throw in ETH there too because it dominates defi.
102This is what I'd suggest we do if a fork happens.  Deploy miner validated tokens (its time to be honest about how SLP is not successful except for toys), smart contracts via OP_PUSH_TX_DATA (a simple op code that pushes data about the current transaction onto the stack)
103Julian Smith joined the group
104Andrew
105OP_UNIQUE: claim unique data for a utxo (miners enforces it just like no doublespend is enforced).  Yes this is implementable as a script if you have OP_PUSH_TX_DATA, but why?  Why not have a simple soln that can become part of a more complicated script, rather than a long script just to do this.
106dw joined the group
107
108Collin #SaveTheOrphans :man::woman::girl::boy:
109i mean i know im not a technical guy but seems best way forward on the non-abc fork would be just keeping the chain as is without the tax
110Andrew
111I don't mean adding all this stuff in May, so yes we'd keep it the same.  Then what?
112
113Julian Smith
114Collin #SaveTheOrphans :man::woman::girl::boy:
115i mean i know im not a technical guy but seems best way forward on the non-abc fork would be just keeping the chain as is withou
116@AndrewStone - ^^ ?
117
118Collin #SaveTheOrphans :man::woman::girl::boy:
119Andrew
120I don't mean adding all this stuff in May, so yes we'd keep it the same. Then what?
121:+1:
122
123Julian Smith
124Ok.
125Andrew
126then we are on a fork with say 25% to 75% of the BCH users with the same dynamic with BTC that has driven BCH price from 10-15% to 3-4%
127
128Julian Smith
129Andrew
130I don't mean adding all this stuff in May, so yes we'd keep it the same. Then what?
131Can you do 25tx limit removal for under $6m ?
132Andrew
133@jsmith_dev  yes, that's already done in BU (and we have a PR open in ABC).  That's not even a hard fork so maybe we schedule that for May?  Its not a hard fork, but it helps 0-conf security if all full nodes bump that up at the same time.
134Ced joined the group
135Andrew
136so we can do it for 0
137
138Pauladmin
139Considering the current situation, I think it would make sense to make no changes other thana refusal of the tax for the May hardfork.
140In fact, is it possible to not hardfork at all?
141Andrew
142yes
143but note that the ABC code has a poison pill so if you don't upgrade it hard forks itself off to a dead end.
144Jc Crown joined the group
145Tomislav Dugandzic joined the group
146
147Alexander Levinadmin
148hey @todu77
149
150Pauladmin
151Andrew
152but note that the ABC code has a poison pill so if you don't upgrade it hard forks itself off to a dead end.
153Right, you have to run different software to not hardfork, but that seems to be the path of least resistance still.
154thomas vandengoden
155Collin #SaveTheOrphans :man::woman::girl::boy:
156i mean i know im not a technical guy but seems best way forward on the non-abc fork would be just keeping the chain as is withou
157I have not heard anything about protocol upgrades (other than this one) for the may 15th yet.
158Maybe some good ones are there we can use. But, yeah, lets just not have a tax. Sounds good to me.
159Andrew
160but note that the ABC code has a poison pill so if you don't upgrade it hard forks itself off to a dead end.
161has anyone validated that in code, I recall hearing that this wasn't actually coded.
162maybe they introduced this in one of the more recent updates, that would make sense.
163Andrea Suisani
164thomas vandengoden
165maybe they introduced this in one of the more recent updates, that would make sense.
166Poison pill is there since the Nov 2017
167Paul invited Tom Harding
168tomothy joined the group
169
170Pauladmin
171Hi @tomothy
172
173tomothy
174Hey man. Sad days. Will be interesting to see how this pans out or dies.
175I get the funding issue but being held hostage is distasteful
176
177Pauladmin
178I don't see them backing down now.
179
180tomothy
181Nope
182Andrew
183I just noticed that the news claims it'll be miner activated via bip9
184if that's true, I suppose the first step would be to ensure that there's a way to not vote for the feature running ABC or any other full node
185its possible that we could prevent a fork if miners don't vote
186but if I had to make a guess ABC will probably vote for it by default so we may need to do something there
187
188Pauladmin
189https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/f4ibk3/posted_without_comment/
190Posted without comment:
191Posted in r/btc by u/MemoryDealers • 58 points and 98 comments
192[Photo]
193:point_up_2:
194
195Tom Harding
196This is worse than developer capture.
197
198It is miners who actually believe they can increase value by forking people off.
199
200Pauladmin
201Andrew
202if that's true, I suppose the first step would be to ensure that there's a way to not vote for the feature running ABC or any ot
203This needs to be organised asap.
204Andrew
205that quote shows no understanding whatsoever of what it means to generate value :blush:
206
207Pauladmin
208@slowsynapse What are you thoughts on the situation?
209Paul
210https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/f4ibk3/posted_without_comment/
211This is really seems to suggest that Roger is against the tax.
212
213Joey B. Ho Lee Fuk
214Paul
215This is really seems to suggest that Roger is against the tax.
216Perhaps he is trying to gauge public reaction to Amaury’s comments, but Rogers kinda a wild card. I hope he picks common sense this times...
217
218Pauladmin
219Yeh, it is difficult to know his strategy because he doesn't normally make it public. Especially in contentious times like this.
220
221Joey B. Ho Lee Fuk
222Paul
223@slowsynapse What are you thoughts on the situation?
224The same as it has been since i first read about the infra plan, that we need to do everything to terminate it in its current form lol. Im not against infra funding just not executing in a way thats going to destoy bch.
225
226Pauladmin
227There are at least two separate projects currently in development that are focussed on providing a voluntary funding option.
228
229Alexander Levinadmin
230Paul
231This is really seems to suggest that Roger is against the tax.
232happy to be in this screenshot
233
234Pauladmin
235Flipstarter and U-DID.
236Alexander Levin
237happy to be in this screenshot
238Do you have some context on it?
239
240Joey B. Ho Lee Fuk
241My view is abc is pushing this because they know if given time an alternate plan might not be reliant on them.
242
243Pauladmin
244:white_check_mark::white_check_mark::white_check_mark:
245
246Alexander Levinadmin
247$2mm is the amount of funding that can be garnered with a 5% dev tax
248i was not expecting amaury to corner himself in such a way
249
250Pauladmin
251Ahh. So you were just pointing that out. When did he say that?
252
253Alexander Levinadmin
254https://t.me/bchgang/141792
255Telegram
256Amaury Séchet in BCH GANG
257Let's make something very clear. ABC has generated more than 1B in value for miners. If we wanted to implement something that goes 100% to abc, I stil...
258
259Pauladmin
260Thanks.
261
262Alexander Levinadmin
263sure
264
265Pauladmin
266So @kotarius What do you think will be the response from the miners who did the AMA recently?
267You were part of that too, right?
268
269Alexander Levinadmin
270i was
271its easy to feel defeated when people in positions of power act against your interests
272Paul invited Peter Tschipper
273Paul invited George Bissias
274
275Alexander Levinadmin
276i felt that way for 5 minutes
277but i will continue to fight the good fight for sound money
278Paul invited Justin Bons
279
280Pauladmin
281Same :muscle:
282
283Alexander Levinadmin
284"The first income tax was created in 1861 during the Civil War as a mechanism to finance the war effort."
285105 years from the founding of the country in 1776. everything in crypto happens faster.
286so about 10x faster
287
288Pauladmin
289This is a valuable insight.
290Some argument could be made for this tax if multiple failed funding drives had already happened, and things were falling apart. But the last funding drive was a huge success and there is no indication that it couldn't be done periodically and in a more professional and organised way. Not only that, but the current problems with BCH do not seem to be due to a lack funding IMO.
291
292Joey B. Ho Lee Fuk
293Alexander Levin
294https://t.me/bchgang/141792
295#hubris
296Paul
297Some argument could be made for this tax if multiple failed funding drives had already happened, and things were falling apart.
298Most importantly, Amaury misleads the public into believing ABC is not funded and he works for free. Well he simply doesn’t talk about the fact abc has funding which is the same thing.
299Rolf joined the group
300
301Alexander Levinadmin
302my hope is that the BCH miner AMA attendees put their hashrate in support of an implementation without a tax plan
303
304Julian Smith
305Paul
306Some argument could be made for this tax if multiple failed funding drives had already happened, and things were falling apart.
307It's about control. Not funding.
308
309Pauladmin
310Yes. This is my hope as well. But this will most likely cause a fork if neither side backs down.
311
312Alexander Levinadmin
313how quickly that happens only depends on the speed with which that sentiment propagates through their respective organization infrastructures
314on paper, they do not support IFPs
315
316Pauladmin
317Julian Smith
318It's about control. Not funding.
319:white_check_mark: And this is evidenced by the fact that BitcoinVerde was almost absent from the "whitelist".
320
321Alexander Levinadmin
322Paul
323Yes. This is my hope as well. But this will most likely cause a fork if neither side backs down.
324a fork with one short prong is not a huge deal
325
326Julian Smith
327No. Evidence it is lowered to 5% == $2m (to get passed)
328Solex
329My view is that for every $1 million diverted to the "fund", it will degrade $10-$100 million of BCH market cap. What is 5% in May can become 12% in November, once the precedent is set.
330
331The crypto markets are heavily skewed to pricing in future value. This type of change is a cancer on future value.
332
333Pauladmin
334Julian Smith
335No. Evidence it is lowered to 5% == $2m (to get passed)
336:white_check_mark:
337
338Julian Smith
339Exactly !
340Nose in the camel tent and totalitarian tip-toe.
341
342Joey B. Ho Lee Fuk
343Solex
344My view is that for every $1 million diverted to the "fund", it will degrade $10-$100 million of BCH market cap. What is 5% in M
345If it aint broke...
346
347Pauladmin
348Alexander Levin
349a fork with one short prong is not a huge deal
350You mean when one side quickly backs down?
351
352Alexander Levinadmin
353yeah
354my expectation is that the IFP fork will have very limited support. amaury can collect 5% of what the market values his statist shitcoin
355
356Pauladmin
357From roughly eyeballing the support in the community, I would say about 70% of people are strongly against this. 10% weakly against. 10% weakly for and 10% strongly for.
358Jett Scythe joined the group
359
360Pauladmin
361I can't see how that coin is going to be valued much on the market.
362
363Joey B. Ho Lee Fuk
364Im worried about that 30%, dont want another bsv on our hands
365Andrea Suisani
366Andrew
367but if I had to make a guess ABC will probably vote for it by default so we may need to do something there
368IMHO bip9 activation scheme could be gamed by BTC / BSV miners and it should not be used
369
370Joey B. Ho Lee Fuk
371With bsv we didnt move fast enough to contain it
372
373Pauladmin
374And that isn't just random 70%. That is people who have been a part of the Bitcoin community for a long time.
375
376Alexander Levinadmin
377whenever a social engineer attempts to capture a juicy target, if he is successful, that target becomes weaker by the very action of that capture
378to put it more plainly: amaury can be king of his little molehill
379
380Pauladmin
381Hey @JettScythe :wave:
382David Klakurka joined the group
383
384Jett Scythe
385Heya.
386Joe Fintec joined the group
387Andrew
388BSV had ton of money.  They were going to leave, no doubt.  The fight was over the users.  And ABC fought that like morons.  They allowed BSV to define the ABC position, by being against everything that BSV was for.  Like larger blocks which is what we forked from BTC for.  So many people were lost.  If ABC had taken on some of the features (on the BCH roadmap anyway), it would have forced a position on BSV.  That position would have been patents, no innovation, and no compromise.  It would have been a terrible look.  I haven't said much about this because I don't like slinging crap and doing so on reddit might drag BCH down.  But its time that the reality of how poorly ABC has driven things needs to be said.
389@slowsynapse ^
390
391Joe Fintec
392[Photo]
393this is how it started
394
395Joey B. Ho Lee Fuk
396Andrew
397BSV had ton of money. They were going to leave, no doubt. The fight was over the users. And ABC fought that like morons. The
398Well arguably the csw cult would have always taken off, but i agree more could have been done to limit the damage.
399Joe Fintec invited checksum0
400
401Alexander Levinadmin
402heh hey @checksum0
403you keep being dragged into this crap when i feel like you want a little bit of alone time
404Andrew
405@slowsynapse yes, no strategy would have kept everybody.  But (for example) people in GCBU call Amaury the "shitlord" and debate whether BSV would be better without CSW.
406Joe Fintec invited Kanat Amren
407Andrew
408point is that some were driven AWAY from BCH more than towards BSV...
409
410checksum0
411Stop inviting me in groups
412checksum0 left group
413
414Pauladmin
415Alexander Levin
416you keep being dragged into this crap when i feel like you want a little bit of alone time
417Seems you were right.
418
419Alexander Levinadmin
420Alexander Levin
421its easy to feel defeated when people in positions of power act against your interests
422what i was talking about
423Ben Dover joined the group
424
425Joey B. Ho Lee Fuk
426Andrew
427@slowsynapse yes, no strategy would have kept everybody. But (for example) people in GCBU call Amaury the "shitlord" and debate
428In another group somebody said perhaps this could be seen as an opportunity instead. Amaury has long been a divisive figure in the community, perhaps its simply time to thank him for contributions and plan to move on.
429
430I like the guy, i’m frankly surprised by the grenade throw that is the last 24 hours. I know he has never been too likeable but he always seemed reasonable at least. This just cant be seen as anything but malicious.
431Spartan joined the group
432XIUHCOATL joined the group
433
434Joe Fintec
435Joey B. Ho Lee Fuk
436In another group somebody said perhaps this could be seen as an opportunity instead. Amaury has long been a divisive figure in t
437power corrupts absolute power corrupts absolutely
438
439XIUHCOATL
440Joey B. Ho Lee Fuk
441In another group somebody said perhaps this could be seen as an opportunity instead. Amaury has long been a divisive figure in t
442:100:
443Drogoteca joined the group
444Hayden Otto joined the group
445Lechango joined the group
446Hayden Otto left group
447
448Lechango
449It's a shame BU sucks
450#teamVerde Make Bitcoin Cash Green Again
451Andrew
452@lechango just a thought but maybe realise this tax is another bad choice in a string of them starting with the EDA, and then consider that BU is one voice that has been critical of these choices, not of BCH, and your opinion has likely been formed and presented to you over social media by the very people who now want to siphon money from the network.  Sometimes I wonder how ABC devs get any work done there's so much SM presence.
453
454Lechango
455Andrew
456@lechango just a thought but maybe realise this tax is another bad choice in a string of them starting with the EDA, and then co
457BU is justified in being critical, doesn't mean their client is ready to take over
458Guess it's worth a shot and see how it goes
459EDA wasn't something BU was originally critical of btw, they did become more critical of it as it failed but were originally behind it from what I saw
460Andrew
461It was added a week or so before the fork.  BU never made any statements on it (and a lot of other things) for the sake of not creating drama.
462Paul invited Mike Komaransky
463Paul invited Josh Ellithorpe
464Paul invited Licho
465Andrew
466We/I made statements on the DAA, CTOR, security flaws in OP_CDS, and other things.  Our not making statements on any particular bad decision does not somehow excuse the person who made that bad decision.   (it doesn't give BU "crystal ball" points either, its neutral).  But consider the context, at the beginning we wantd a clean unified community fork, and then later of realizing our statements would make no difference (ABC was going to do whatever it wanted anyway).  Rocking the boat should have a purpose, a value, more than just to say "I told you so" a year later.
467Licho left group
468
469Pauladmin
470So it seems the best thing to do right now is to offer up the ABC client with the poison pill removed. This is the path of least resistance for miners.
471@kotarius What are your thoughts on this?
472
473Joe Fintec
474is that a fair assessment? https://twitter.com/howelzy/status/1228848367662518272
475Twitter
476James Howells
477The current Bitcoin Cash DAA was implemented in Nov 17 at the behest of Amaury Sechet and the @BitcoinABC Dev team. BTCtop gamed that DAA unfairly for...
478
479Joey B. Ho Lee Fuk
480Tinfoil hat territory?
481
482Lechango
483Paul
484So it seems the best thing to do right now is to offer up the ABC client with the poison pill removed. This is the path of least
485Seems like it, or rally miners to vote against activation, which will be tough at current market share/difficulty where BTC.Top has more than 100% BCH hashrate
486risho joined the group
487
488Pauladmin
489It really all comes down to if a futures contract or a promise of split coins is offered. It then gives the opportunity for holders to dump/buy each side.
490The price is what determines the hashrate.
491Andrea Suisani
492Joe Fintec
493is that a fair assessment? https://twitter.com/howelzy/status/1228848367662518272
494The conclusion he made is speculation.
495
496One thing is sure thou the oscillations of the current daa was predicted by Tom Harding @dgenr8  and Stone and nonetheless current DAA was merged in ABC unilaterally
497See the announcement here
498http://www.bitcoinabc.org/2017-11-01-DAA/
499
500
501The other thing that is sure is that BTC.top didn't lose a chance to mine at low difficulty for as long as I started to monitor the situation.
502
503At moments btc.top pointed toward bch around 4EH/s... When difficult started to raise again it went back to normal level.
504
505Mind you I'm not blaming a miner to maximize profit
506www.bitcoinabc.org
507Difficulty Adjustment Algorithm Update
508Bitcoin ABC has published version 0.16.0 which contains an updated Difficulty Adjustment Algorithm (DAA).
509
510Joe Fintec
511Andrea Suisani
512The conclusion he made is speculation. One thing is sure thou the oscillations of the current daa was predicted by Tom Harding
513:+1:
514Andrew
515my work explaining the exact algorithm to game the DAA was released before the DAA was merged years ago so for sure the data was out there.  But clearly the accusation is pure speculation.
516https://medium.com/@g.andrew.stone/tail-removal-block-validation-ae26fb436524
517Tail Removal Block Validation
518(and why it is necessary) Oct 30, 2017
519[Photo]
520Cryptic joined the group
521Andrew
522and BTW tom harding's alg was more resistant.  Against his DAA, the only algorithm I discovered to extract profits at the expense of benevolent miners was to wait for random fluctuations in block discovery to reduce difficulty and then mine at that moment.  This yielded minor profitability advantages.  But unlike the alg being used against the BCH DAA (basically pumping it up with lots of blocks and letting it relax), this alg had the effect of smoothing out average block discovery times (because you jump in when block discovery rate is low, and leave when its high) providing a better UX.  In contract the BCH DAA is exploitable via an algorithm that *increases* block discovery volatility leading to poor UX.
523Bryce Weiner joined the group
524
525Pauladmin
526Welcome @bryceweiner
527
528Bryce Weiner
529thanks
530
531Pauladmin
532I'd be interested in getting your perspective on all this.
533
534Bryce Weiner
535Large miners on BCH mine on BTC, unless I am mistaken.  BCH then becomes a hedge against profits lost on the BTC chain.  It's for that reason the BCH price seems "pegged" at a certain level against BTC.  Problem is, the BTC halving is gonna gut them and BCH can no longer make up the difference.  I think this is a hail mary play to stay solvent because they can't afford the invest any more of their own monies and BCH isn't growing fast enough to support them.
536Cryptic left group
537
538Bryce Weiner
539I know that's not a popular sentiment because everyone wants to think miners are loyal, but they are profit driven and SHA256 is what it is.
540There's nothing in that theory that directly contradicts any of their statements, either.  Especially the part in the original prononucement about the state of the SHA256 ecosystem.  They just left the relevant bits out.
541
542Pauladmin
543Bryce Weiner
544I know that's not a popular sentiment because everyone wants to think miners are loyal, but they are profit driven and SHA256 is
545Yes, this is something I realised last year.
546
547Bryce Weiner
548I think it is a mistake to assess the financial motivation of miners without looking at both BTC and BCH.
549I just don't see this being a cocindience it's right before the BTC halving
550I could always be wrong.
551Quite frankly I'm more interested in if there will be a split, what other exchanges will trade, and what the plan is for replay protection in the event it does split.
552
553Joe Fintec
554[Photo]
555
556Bryce Weiner
557if there's a tax to pay for developers then we should pay for the best and then Amaury must apply for the job like everyone else.
558otherwise it's just grifting a paycheck
559
560Pauladmin
561Bryce Weiner
562I just don't see this being a cocindience it's right before the BTC halving
563This is a good point.
564
565Joe Fintec
566Amaury SéchetFeb 15, 2020 5:51:49 PM
567Actually it's in my interest to do WAY worse
568If I send 50% of the coinbase to ABC, even assuming a 90% value collapses, that'd still increase ABC's income by at least an order of magnitude
569
570Bryce Weiner
571is he high?
572
573Joe Fintec
574high or not it's important to set boundaries early on
575to know who's fukcing idea this all is just look at the biggest player who's also the quietest: jihan wu
576
577Julian Smith
578Jihan is smashed
579Internal controls / re-envigorating team and now supply-chain COVID-19 issues.
580I wouldn't read this into that.
581
582Joe Fintec
583Julian Smith
584Internal controls / re-envigorating team and now supply-chain COVID-19 issues.
585nah
586
587Julian Smith
588Yeah.
589Ultrafresh joined the group
590Andy Chen joined the group
591
592Andy Chen
593Hi all
594I am Andy from HK
595I am a developer and feel very angry about the tax
596
597Julian Smith
598Welcome angry Andy.
599
600Pauladmin
601Hi Andy.
602
603Joe Fintec
604[Photo]
605
606Andy Chen
607Zhuoer is one of my good friends and I did a lot to avoid taxing
608But seems like it will happen
609
610Kanat Amren
611Andy Chen
612Zhuoer is one of my good friends and I did a lot to avoid taxing
613Cmon
614
615Pauladmin
616Andy Chen
617Zhuoer is one of my good friends and I did a lot to avoid taxing
618Could you give some insight on his reasoning?
619Why now? Why not explore other options for example?
620
621Kanat Amren
622Zhoer is not relevant. Main person here is Jihan.
623
624Andy Chen
625Maybe
626I don’t know much about Johansson
627*Jihan
628
629Lechango
630Kanat Amren
631Zhoer is not relevant. Main person here is Jihan.
632Zhuoer has a lot more hashrate as far as I know (that he personally controls)
633
634Joe Fintec
635Kanat Amren
636Zhoer is not relevant. Main person here is Jihan.
637:+1:
638
639Andy Chen
640Zhuoer is maybe the most personal sha256d hashrate owner
641
642Pauladmin
643Kanat Amren
644Zhoer is not relevant. Main person here is Jihan.
645What do you think his thinking is?
646
647Joe Fintec
648Paul
649What do you think his thinking is?
650i think he doens't want to pay to abc when the others use the code too but don't pay devs....so he taxes everyone else
651that's speculative on my part
652
653Lechango
654Joe Fintec
655i think he doens't want to pay to abc when the others use the code too but don't pay devs....so he taxes everyone else
656yeah he can just activate the tax quickly with a big burst of hash and then let everyone else pay for it
657
658Pauladmin
659[Photo]
660https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/f4fqf7/bitcoin_abc_to_include_miner_fund_code_in_release/fhr57b8?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x
661
662Joe Fintec
663
664Paul
665Photo
666thank god
667https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/f4jq6s/shower_thought_what_would_harm_bitcoin_cash_more/
668
669reddit
670Shower thought: What would harm Bitcoin Cash more if happened...
671Posted in r/btc by u/ShadowOfHarbringer • 13 points and 10 comments
672[Photo]
673
674Pauladmin
675I think it is probably easier to count who is in support of this than who is against it.
676
677Kanat Amren
678Poor Rojer he was played again.
679
680Spartan
681Pretty sure ABC will send kickbacks to BTC.top, effectively transferring money from other miners to Jiang.
682
683Kanat Amren
684Spartan
685Pretty sure ABC will send kickbacks to BTC.top, effectively transferring money from other miners to Jiang.
686Of course.
687
688Joe Fintec
689Paul
690I think it is probably easier to count who is in support of this than who is against it.
691only abc, jiang zhuor, haipo yang, jihan wu, vin armani, hayden otto and a few others........rest is against or neutral i guess
692
693Spartan
694Basically both ABC and BTC.top get paid by rest of the miners. ABC gets money for develeopment, BTC.top stays higher profitability than everyone else
695
696Joe Fintec
697Spartan
698Basically both ABC and BTC.top get paid by rest of the miners. ABC gets money for develeopment, BTC.top stays higher profitabili
699win-win
700
701Kanat Amren
702Joe Fintec
703only abc, jiang zhuor, haipo yang, jihan wu, vin armani, hayden otto and a few others........rest is against or neutral i guess
704Jonald
705We need fork.
706Alexander Levin invited Eric
707
708Joe Fintec
709a fork would be the end for either side
710
711Kanat Amren
712New Hempshire - live free or die :)
713
714Pauladmin
715Roger just likes this...
716
717https://twitter.com/aiyadt/status/1228873492633989122
718आदित्य
719
720
721Joe Fintec
722Paul
723Roger just likes this... https://twitter.com/aiyadt/status/1228873492633989122
724oh dear
725https://twitter.com/pokkst/status/1228887724234506240
726Twitter
727pokkst (@pokkst) | Twitter
728The latest Tweets from pokkst (@pokkst). pokkst [at] protonmail [dot] com | Developer of @crescentcash and @tipbitcoincash. localhost
729[Photo]
730Amaury Séchet joined the group
731
732Eric
733Amaury Séchet
734joined the group
735god damnit
736
737Alexander Levinadmin
738@PWasensteiner can we ban people in support of statist taxes?
739Paul removed Amaury Séchet
740
741Julian Smith
742WTF?
743
744Pauladmin
745Alexander Levin
746@PWasensteiner can we ban people in support of statist taxes?
747Yes.
748
749Alexander Levinadmin
750thank you
751
752Eric
753Paul
754Yes.
755nice
756
757Julian Smith
758That's all sorts of bullshit.
759Why remove Amaury?
760
761Joe Fintec
762Paul
763Yes.
764why? let's talk - dialogue is good
765
766Alexander Levinadmin
767they can talk in another channel
768
769Pauladmin
770There are plenty of places for dialogue IMO.
771
772Eric
773agreed.
774
775Pauladmin
776Essentially every single person in here is in the BCHGang chat.
777
778Julian Smith
779Fuck this channel.
780Not participating in censorship ville.
781Bye.
782Julian Smith left group
783
784Eric
785Julian Smith
786Bye.
787bye
788
789Joe Fintec
790then you are just censoring somebody because of  an opinion not because of misbehavior
791
792Alexander Levinadmin
793Joe Fintec
794then you are just censoring somebody because of an opinion not because of misbehavior
795correct
796this channel is called notax
797
798Joe Fintec
799lame
800
801Alexander Levinadmin
802maybe you should leave, too?
803
804Joe Fintec
805Alexander Levin
806maybe you should leave, too?
807why?
808because i'm not xyz?
809
810XIUHCOATL
811Joe has been against tax before most
812
813Joe Fintec
814XIUHCOATL
815Joe has been against tax before most
816pretty much....
817
818Alexander Levinadmin
819because he thinks statists can be reasoned with
820
821XIUHCOATL
822One of the rare few to take heat from the start
823We need people like julian here
824
825Joe Fintec
826Alexander Levin
827because he thinks statists can be reasoned with
828and then what's next? delete everyone who's not identical with you?
829
830XIUHCOATL
831I think its worth keeping sechet as long as he doesnt spam or be disrespectful
832
833Joe Fintec
834XIUHCOATL
835I think its worth keeping sechet as long as he doesnt spam or be disrespectful
836:+1:
837
838Eric
839XIUHCOATL
840I think its worth keeping sechet as long as he doesnt spam or be disrespectful
841there are dozens of other chats you can reason with and have discussion with him
842that are not clearly labeled notax
843
844XIUHCOATL
845But now you are losing good people due to censorship and control
846
847Eric
848you’re gaining better ones.
849
850Alexander Levinadmin
851you’re gaining winners, not compromisers
852
853Pauladmin
854Every single TG group uses moderation.
855
856XIUHCOATL
857If this is to be an objection to authoritarianism it shouldnt do it with censorship
858
859Pauladmin
860Even in BCHGang where they are now complaining about it.
861
862Joe Fintec
863XIUHCOATL
864If this is to be an objection to authoritarianism it shouldnt do it with censorship
865:+1:
866
867XIUHCOATL
868Bchgang is mostly shills for abc
869Lechango left group
870
871Eric
872XIUHCOATL
873Bchgang is mostly shills for abc
874good thing @PWasensteiner banned them here then
875
876XIUHCOATL
877Julian SmithFeb 15, 2020 7:58:50 PM
878There's a difference between disagreeing with an idea and a plan.. and wanton division or severing communication.
879I'm not interested in the second.
880
881Joe Fintec
882Alexander Levin
883you’re gaining winners, not compromisers
884what's your winning plan?
885
886XIUHCOATL
887This group going downhill fast unfortunately
888
889Alexander Levinadmin
890what is there to talk about with amaury, honestly?
891maybe 5% is bad but 3.5% is good?
892
893Joe Fintec
894Alexander Levin
895what is there to talk about with amaury, honestly?
896what's your winning plan?
897
898Alexander Levinadmin
899https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/f4ibk3/posted_without_comment/fhqxky6/?context=3
900Posted without comment:
901Posted in r/btc by u/MemoryDealers • 22 points and 20 comments
902[Photo]
903second portion
904
905Kanat Amren
906Roger has only 3% of bch hashrate.
907
908Pauladmin
9093% on BCH. He does have more on BTC though right?
910
911Alexander Levinadmin
912pool hashrate consists on miners, its not linear
913or static
914if a pool gives miners who are against IFPs to mine, they will mine there
915
916Kanat Amren
917Paul
9183% on BCH. He does have more on BTC though right?
919Don't think so.
920
921Alexander Levinadmin
922watch it happen, then
923
924Pauladmin
925Alexander Levin
926if a pool gives miners who are against IFPs to mine, they will mine there
927Right. Do you think enough miners care?
928
929Alexander Levinadmin
930yes i think many care
931
932Joe Fintec
933ok if you are a miner why would you vote for the tax?? unless you are jihan wu, haipo &jiang????
934
935Kanat Amren
936Alexander Levin
937yes i think many care
938Do you think we can compete with 3exahash owner?
939
940Alexander Levinadmin
941voting isn’t mining
942Kanat Amren
943Do you think we can compete with 3exahash owner?
944absolutely. stop thinking linearly
945
946Kanat Amren
947Alexander Levin
948absolutely. stop thinking linearly
949Explain
950
951Alexander Levinadmin
952price went up 2.5x in 43 days
953bch hashrate went from 2-3ex to 4-5ex
954what do you think will happen if price continues to go up?
955today’s red candle is market sentiment against amaury’s proposal
956
957Joe Fintec
958looking at AS's replies they are bluffing a fork would cost them too much
959they are about game theory not principles - money
960now both camps use fork as a threat but everyone knows it's BS
961
962XIUHCOATL
963Joe Fintec
964now both camps use fork as a threat but everyone knows it's BS
965I don't agree with you. What is to be gained by bluffing about a fork?
966I mean for the tax side.
967
968Pauladmin
969XIUHCOATL
970I don't agree with you. What is to be gained by bluffing about a fork?
971The opponent concedes and you take all.
972
973Joe Fintec
974Paul
975The opponent concedes and you take all.
976duh
977wuhan ji
978:sunglasses:
979Fernando joined the group
980SpiceQueen joined the group
981HostFat joined the group
982
983Alexander Levinadmin
984Joe Fintec
985only abc, jiang zhuor, haipo yang, jihan wu, vin armani, hayden otto and a few others........rest is against or neutral i guess
986regarding jihan wu support, can you find a source for antpool/btc.com support that isn't jiang or amaury's blog posts?
987all of us now know that jiang published the original IFP by using roger ver's name without his permission
988so what makes you think he got permission from anyone else?
989
990Pauladmin
991True. Right now, all we have is articles from two people. Jiang and Amaury.
992
993Alexander Levinadmin
994https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/f4gecw/bitcoin_abc_will_implement_bitcoin_cash/fhqtw3b/?context=3
995Bitcoin ABC Will Implement Bitcoin Cash Infrastructure Fund of 5%...
996Posted in r/btc by u/afriendofsatoshi • 28 points and 28 comments
997[Photo]
998Jordan joined the group
999
1000Alexander Levinadmin
1001[Photo]
1002
1003Joe Fintec
1004Alexander Levin
1005so what makes you think he got permission from anyone else?
1006them not saying anything to the contrary
1007
1008Alexander Levinadmin
1009ok, got it. no evidence
1010
1011Joe Fintec
1012everyone seems to hate it https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/f4fqf7/bitcoin_abc_to_include_miner_fund_code_in_release/
1013
1014reddit
1015Bitcoin ABC to include miner fund code in release 0.21.0
1016Posted in r/btc by u/sandakersmann • 143 points and 480 comments
1017
1018Alexander Levinadmin
1019yep
1020
1021Pauladmin
1022@andychenw do you know miners in China that don't want the dev tax?
1023
1024Alexander Levinadmin
1025position yourself to support and interact with north american miners
1026china is fucked. with 700 million people quarantined, whether or not they support an IFP for BCH is the least of their concerns
1027
1028Pauladmin
1029Surely the more hash that goes against this the better.
1030
1031Alexander Levinadmin
1032chinese don't understand your culture
1033stop worrying about what they think
1034
1035Joe Fintec
1036Alexander Levin
1037china is fucked. with 700 million people quarantined, whether or not they support an IFP for BCH is the least of their concerns
1038nonsense. mining is not happening in the city centers but in the boonies
1039
1040Alexander Levinadmin
1041Joe Fintec
1042nonsense. mining is not happening in the city centers but in the boonies
1043https://www.coindesk.com/bitcoins-mining-difficulty-stagnates-as-coronavirus-outbreak-delays-new-equipment?utm_source=hootsuite&utm_medium=twitter&utm_term=Events&utm_content=Register&utm_campaign=FATF
1044Bitcoin's Mining Difficulty Stagnates as Coronavirus Outbreak Delays New Equipment - CoinDesk
1045A key measure of competition among bitcoin miners has stagnated in the past two weeks as the coronavirus outbreak disrupts economic activity in China.
1046[Photo]
1047https://decrypt.co/18609/coronavirus-shuts-down-chinese-bitcoin-mine
1048Coronavirus shuts down Chinese Bitcoin mine - Decrypt
1049Chinese authorities have closed a Bitcoin mine in a bid to contain the coronavirus epidemic. Over 26,000 cases of coronavirus have been confirmed in China.
1050[Photo]
1051
1052Joe Fintec
1053Alexander Levin
1054https://www.coindesk.com/bitcoins-mining-difficulty-stagnates-as-coronavirus-outbreak-delays-new-equipment?utm_source=hootsuite&
1055numbers don't support your claim....they are neutral in that regard
1056:cookie: biscuit joined the group
1057
1058Joe Fintec
1059Alexander Levin
1060chinese don't understand your culture
1061they underestand tax, that's enough for this purpose
1062
1063Alexander Levinadmin
1064@PWasensteiner i think joe wants you to waste your time
1065
1066Joe Fintec
1067Alexander Levin
1068@PWasensteiner i think joe wants you to waste your time
1069most hashpower is in china, and most hashpower in china is in sichuan....if you want to win this is the key
1070
1071Alexander Levinadmin
1072the future has more hashrate in north america
1073if you always try to battle for the present and past, you will always be fighting an uphill battle
1074
1075Joe Fintec
1076i guess you don't understand what this is about....have a good one
1077
1078Alexander Levinadmin
1079i really hope that means you'll stop talking, but somehow i doubt it
1080
1081:cookie: biscuit
1082
1083my hash cookies have the most hash power
1084J. K Bezoz UnaBoomer 2.0 joined the group
1085J Stodd joined the group
1086
1087Alexander Levinadmin
1088Alexander Levin
1089@PWasensteiner can we ban people in support of statist taxes?
1090@PWasensteiner ^
1091https://www.reddit.com/user/j-stodd
1092Reddit
1093overview for J-Stodd
1094The u/J-Stodd community on Reddit. Reddit gives you the best of the internet in one place.
1095
1096Alexander Levinadmin
1097a userFeb 15, 2020 10:05:43 PM
1098Any ideas who's alt account j-stodd is?
1099Jake
1100Appeared one month ago right around the time of the first announcement and pretty much only comments to support the proposal
1101Jake
1102im_uname#100:lemon:Feb 15, 2020 10:07:29 PM
1103cryptacritic aka fallthebanks aka jacob johnson aka the guy who yelled at people for pointing out his self-doxx and got banned under multiple accounts on /r/btc.
1104
1105J. K Bezoz UnaBoomer 2.0
1106Joe Fintec
1107to know who's fukcing idea this all is just look at the biggest player who's also the quietest: jihan wu
1108split=miner sales?
1109Julian Smith
1110Welcome angry Andy.
1111+++++
1112
1113Kanat Amren
1114:)
1115emergent_reasons#100:cactus: joined the group
1116
1117Bryce Weiner
1118Alexander Levin
1119the future has more hashrate in north america
1120Future hashrate doesn't currently make blocks. It is irrelevant.
1121im_uname#100:lemon: joined the group
1122
1123Alexander Levinadmin
1124future proposals don't activate in the present, either
1125maybe they are irrelevant, too
1126
1127Bryce Weiner
1128If you're trying to compare a few lines of code to the physical effort and resources needed to mine BCH I wonder if you actually understand how this stuff works.
1129
1130Alexander Levinadmin
1131lol
1132https://asicseer.com/page/about
1133Asicseer
1134ASICseer about
1135ASIC management, monitoring, and optimization system.
1136maybe you don't know how stuff works, or who works on stuff, for that matter
1137
1138Bryce Weiner
1139Then you're a fool for wanting to plan on unconfirmed rumors in a process where everyone can remain anonymous but you go on with your humble brag
1140
1141Alexander Levinadmin
1142what plan?
1143
1144Bryce Weiner
1145I swear every time the network splits it's brain drain
1146GL y'all. I'll just keep yelling on Twitter.
1147Adam K. joined the group
1148Bryce Weiner left group
1149John Marks joined the group
1150Pickle Brick joined the group
1151Pickle Brick
1152Bitcoin NT
1153BNT
1154Who is building the roads?
1155
1156Kanat Amren
1157Bitcoin unlimited
1158ichundes#102; :dromedary_camel: joined the group
1159John Marks
1160Pickle Brick
1161BNT
1162Taken by Bancor. Let's not make the same mistake as last time
1163
1164Kanat Amren
1165https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/f4o2v3/a_block_signaling_no_to_the_ifp_has_been_mined/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
1166A block signaling "No" to the IFP has been mined.
1167Posted in r/btc by u/ugtarmas • 3 points and 6 comments
1168[Photo]
1169CNC joined the group
1170Antonio joined the group
1171thomas vandengoden
1172Pickle Brick
1173Who is building the roads?
1174Flowee.org :)
1175Bryan Wade joined the group
1176Cody joined the group
1177
1178Alexander Levinadmin
1179https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rk4Ekyc1xQc&feature=youtu.be
1180YouTube
1181Bitcoin.com’s stance on the recent block reward diversion proposals
1182Remember to subscribe to our Youtube channel and hit the bell ":bell:" icon to get notifications: https://www.youtube.com/bitcoincomofficialchannel?sub_confirmati...
1183[Video]
1184
1185Pauladmin
1186That provided a lot of clarity.
1187thomas vandengoden
1188The 4 rules in that press release, that are used to whitelist, are specifically designed.
1189Roger seems to miss that in his video.
1190
1191We talked about that on reddit; https://old.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/f4fqf7/bitcoin_abc_to_include_miner_fund_code_in_release/fhqeixm/?context=1
1192
1193reddit
1194Bitcoin ABC to include miner fund code in release 0.21.0
1195Posted in r/btc by u/sandakersmann • 136 points and 446 comments
1196
1197Alexander Levinadmin
1198i like what he says at 5:00
1199
1200Pauladmin
1201thomas vandengoden
1202The 4 rules in that press release, that are used to whitelist, are specifically designed. Roger seems to miss that in his video.
1203:white_check_mark:
1204It is very convinient that all 'friends' are included and all 'enemies' are excluded using their 'criteria'.
1205Occam's Razor.
1206Fernando
1207ABC = All Backported from Core
1208
1209Pauladmin
1210Some very important details about the fork from @btcfork...
1211https://twitter.com/btcfork/status/1228998361258352640
1212Twitter
1213bch 'make Bitcoin cash again' protocol upgrade
1214Just verified a few things around the miner tax plan. It is in ABC 0.21.0, nearing release, & contains - separate bip9 bits for General [0], ABC [1],...
1215It is in ABC 0.21.0, nearing release, & contains
1216
1217- separate bip9 bits for General [0], ABC [1], BCHD [2] and Electron Cash [3] project addresses
1218- 66% threshold over 2016 blocks
1219- starts Nov 15 2019
1220- ends May 15, 2020
1221
1222Jonathan#100 ☯️
1223Just to clarify, not all of ys here are anti-abc, it is the IFP that is most problematic.
122466% is rather low. any motivations on why that threshold was chosen?
1225
1226Pauladmin
1227Agreed. This isn't meant to be an anti-abc group. It is just a group to organise an opposition to the IFP.
1228Jonathan#100 ☯️
122966% is rather low. any motivations on why that threshold was chosen?
1230Agreed. I guess the simplest explanation is that it is easy to achieve.
1231Others have pointed out that with the activation schedule started in the past, depending on the activation bits, it could be possible that blocks not even produce on ABC 0.21.0 could count towards the 1320/2000 blocks needed.
1232Fernando
1233I was the lead developer of Bitprim node. Now working in a new node.
1234I was contributed to ABC in the past months.
1235
1236Pauladmin
1237Glad to have you here Fernando. :+1:
1238What are your thoughts on the activation requirements? Does it seem to you that these will change at all?
1239Fernando
1240I'm with BCH from the beginning, Bitprim did a lot for BCH.  We did all the first tests and made contact with all the big players. Without Bitprim, BCh would not have been born.
1241Paul
1242What are your thoughts on the activation requirements? Does it seem to you that these will change at all?
1243sorry, I'm almost asleep, this topic has me bad.  What are the activation requirements?
1244
1245Kanat Amren
1246Fernando
1247I'm with BCH from the beginning, Bitprim did a lot for BCH. We did all the first tests and made contact with all the big player
1248I think our Napoleon will not agree with you.
1249
1250Pauladmin
1251Fernando
1252sorry, I'm almost asleep, this topic has me bad. What are the activation requirements?
1253It is in ABC 0.21.0, nearing release, & contains
1254
1255- separate bip9 bits for General [0], ABC [1], BCHD [2] and Electron Cash [3] project addresses
1256- 66% threshold over 2016 blocks
1257- starts Nov 15 2019
1258- ends May 15, 2020
1259Fernando
1260He thinks he made everything, he is a tyrant.
1261
1262Alexander Levinadmin
1263he thinks he provided 1bl in value
1264
1265Jonathan#100 ☯️
1266what does "separate bits for <list of things>" mean in this context? Is the whitelist something that the miners would vote on?
1267
1268Pauladmin
1269Jonathan#100 ☯️
1270what does "separate bits for <list of things>" mean in this context? Is the whitelist something that the miners would vote on?
1271Yes.
1272Fernando
1273Paul
1274It is in ABC 0.21.0, nearing release, & contains - separate bip9 bits for General [0], ABC [1], BCHD [2] and Electron Cash [3]
1275Let me check
1276
1277Pauladmin
1278:+1:
1279@dagurval Maybe you can give some insight?
1280thomas vandengoden
1281Jonathan#100 ☯️
128266% is rather low. any motivations on why that threshold was chosen?
1283Any percentage is rather irrelevant in an environment where we are the minority chain. The percentage isn't the issue. The method is.
1284
1285Alexander Levinadmin
1286yes, 51% through 99% is still a max of 3ex in an environment where 115ex exists
1287Evan joined the group
1288
1289Kanat Amren
1290Andy Chen
1291Zhuoer is one of my good friends and I did a lot to avoid taxing
1292Do you think this is a good idea if we create a group in Weechat? I think that we can attract supporters from a party of Chinese miners.
1293
1294Pauladmin
1295Kanat Amren
1296Do you think this is a good idea if we create a group in Weechat? I think that we can attract supporters from a party of Chinese
1297Yes, this is a good idea. I know many in China tend to only use wechat.
1298I heard one person saying that all of the BCH community in China supports this, but I would like to hear that from them to know if it is true or not.
1299
1300Kanat Amren
1301@andychenw
1302Kanat Amren invited Cindy wang
1303
1304Kanat Amren
1305Huobi has a lot of power, what do they think about this plan? Does anyone know people from Huobi management?
1306
1307Pauladmin
1308Ok, so a show of hands here :point_down:
1309https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/f4qgry/lets_have_a_show_of_hands_who_supports_the_ifp/
1310
1311reddit
1312Let's have a show of hands - Who supports the IFP (dev-tax)?
1313Or, more importantly, who is against it? It seems to me that almost the entire community is against this major change but it would be good if this...
1314
1315Alexander Levinadmin
1316Paul
1317Ok, so a show of hands here :point_down: https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/f4qgry/lets_have_a_show_of_hands_who_supports_the_ifp/
1318paul are you singularity87
1319
1320Pauladmin
1321Yes.
1322How come?
1323
1324Alexander Levinadmin
1325your post is legendary
1326i read it like once every 3 months
1327
1328Pauladmin
1329Yeh and a fat finger deleted it :joy:
1330Readded the first section in a later comment though.
1331
1332Kanat Amren
1333If there is a fork it will be Chineese BCH and USA BCH.
1334
1335Alexander Levinadmin
1336Paul
1337Yes.
1338@usmc35
1339
1340Pauladmin
1341Alexander Levin
1342your post is legendary
1343I also started BTCfork (where BCH was conceived) in not dissimilar circumstances to where we find ourselves today.
1344It is a shame we are in a similar situation so soon.
1345
1346Joe Fintec
1347Bryce Weiner
1348Future hashrate doesn't currently make blocks. It is irrelevant.
1349:+1:
1350
1351Alexander Levinadmin
1352everything happens more quickly in crypto in suppose
1353Joe Fintec
1354:+1:
1355do you support the IFP?
1356
1357Joe Fintec
1358Kanat Amren
1359If there is a fork it will be Chineese BCH and USA BCH.
1360bitmain cash
1361Paul
1362Ok, so a show of hands here :point_down: https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/f4qgry/lets_have_a_show_of_hands_who_supports_the_ifp/
1363on reddit?
1364
1365Pauladmin
1366Yep.
1367
1368Joe Fintec
1369i don't use reddit
1370
1371Pauladmin
1372The BCH IFP dev-tax as outlined in by BitcoinABC at https://www.bitcoinabc.org/2020-02-15-miner-fund/ runs counter to what the majority of the BCH ecosystem stand for. There are currently multiple efforts underway to build sustainable funding methods for the ecosystem that do not require undermining the protocol, and there seems to be no indication that there is no apetite within the BCH community to provide significant voluntarily funding to the projects that need it. It is just that there has been little effort by those who are saying the sky is falling to request funding from the community. In fact the last community fundraiser was a huge success when looking at how much was donated.
1373
1374I feel it's important to clarify the objectives of this group and why I created it.
1375
1376The primary objective of this group is to stop the IFP dev-tax from being implemented on BCH for the reasons outlined above.
1377
1378The secondary objective, should we fail in the primary objective, is to make sure an alternative option without the tax is provided to the ecosystem.
1379
1380While it is sensible to maintain open dialogue within the community in general, this group is not the place for it. There are many other sensible places for general community discussion. In the interest of keeping this group focussed, this group is not for those that support the IFP dev-tax.
1381
1382All discussion here should remain civil at all times. Trolls and spammers will be banned.
1383www.bitcoinabc.org
1384On the Miner Infrastructure Funding Plan
1385Recently Jiang Zhuoer of BTC.TOP announced the intention to create an Infrastructure Funding Plan (IFP) for Bitcoin Cash. This plan set off much discu...
1386Paul pinned «The BCH IFP dev-tax as outlined in by BitcoinABC at https://www.bitcoinabc.org/2020-02-15-miner-fund/ runs counter to what the m»
1387
1388Pauladmin
1389Joe Fintec
1390i don't use reddit
1391With your permission I can add you name to the list.
1392
1393Alexander Levinadmin
1394Paul
1395With your permission I can add you name to the list.
1396https://blockchair.com/bitcoin-cash/block/622509 you could add SBI Crypto to the list
1397
1398Blockchair
1399Bitcoin Cash / Block / 622509 — Blockchair
1400Bitcoin Cash (BCH) block 622509, hash: 000000000000000000fac3162c2af074139c891a174c1e5b9eda75f60ffc11e3, date: 2020-02-16
1401
1402Pauladmin
1403Are they pro-BCH in general?
1404
1405Kanat Amren
1406Paul
1407Are they pro-BCH in general?
1408They ProBSV as I know/
1409
1410Alexander Levinadmin
1411from my interactions with their ceo, i can reasonably say they are
1412
1413Alexander Levinadmin
1414Carson SmithFeb 16, 2020 5:02:27 AM
1415I'm not anti-bch and not anti-bsv  though that may disappoint them or even you. Nor am I Jerry, the person everyone remembers who used to be at SBI.
1416
1417There will always be tin foil hats  dreaming up conspiracies. 
1418
1419I'm not going to waste time on it and don't think you should either.
1420The tax itself is something that is probably more worthy of your time than me or trolls.
1421
1422Pauladmin
1423Ok, good to know.
1424
1425Joe Fintec
1426[Photo]
1427Georg Engelmann joined the group
1428zveda joined the group
1429zveda
1430was hayden really banned from here? ha ha
1431
1432Kanat Amren
1433zveda
1434was hayden really banned from here? ha ha
1435Yes
1436zveda
1437how come
1438no bueno?
1439
1440Pauladmin
1441Please see the pinned message.
1442
1443Alexander Levinadmin
1444this is a channel for opponents of ifp
1445zveda
1446o right good pt
1447Данила joined the group
1448Данила
1449hi
1450did you really  ban hayden?
1451
1452Kanat Amren
1453Данила
1454hi
1455Hey
1456
1457Alexander Levinadmin
1458discussions with supporters are not required
1459
1460Pauladmin
1461Данила
1462hi
1463See the pinned message.
1464Georg Engelmann
1465BU is running a smear campaign against ABC?
1466
1467Kanat Amren
1468You can just mute them . Not ban.
1469zveda
1470Данила
1471did you really ban hayden?
1472just asked same thing lol
1473Данила
1474Kanat Amren
1475You can just mute them . Not ban.
1476+
1477zveda
1478but this channel's purpose is not for debate
1479there are other channels for that
1480Данила
1481true, it does say only for opponents of the tax
1482but still if we start banning each other that's a recipe for another split
1483zveda
1484i agree with the pinned message tho, there seems to have been almost 0 effort to raise funds voluntarily
1485despite many people prepared to throw money at the screen
1486
1487Kanat Amren
1488Bitcoin Unlimited Split :)
1489zveda
1490myself included
1491Georg Engelmann
1492zveda
1493i agree with the pinned message tho, there seems to have been almost 0 effort to raise funds voluntarily
1494ABC wasn't even trying
1495zveda
1496i was literally offering them free money and amaury was saying "thanks but no thanks"
1497something something big players...
1498
1499Pauladmin
1500Georg Engelmann
1501BU is running a smear campaign against ABC?
1502Of course it isn't. It is a ridiculous assertion by Hayden who has a chip on his shoulder because I refused him $10k (when I was running the BCA) to make a video of him driving around in a mercedes shitting on BTC.
1503zveda
1504lol wut
1505
1506Pauladmin
1507It did get made in the end because I think in the end Bitcoin.com paid for and it had about as much impact as I expected (i.e. none).
1508
1509im_uname#100:lemon:
1510Paul
1511https://twitter.com/btcfork/status/1228998361258352640
151266% lmao
1513
1514Alexander Levinadmin
1515Данила
1516but still if we start banning each other that's a recipe for another split
1517i dont know about that. it might be a recipe for the losing side to become irrelevant
1518
1519Pauladmin
1520Paul
1521It did get made in the end because I think in the end Bitcoin.com paid for and it had about as much impact as I expected (i.e. n
1522Anyway, this is outside the scope of this group.
1523zveda
1524so is all the stuff they say about BU accurate? BU not very good also?
1525they failed to give us big blocks etc
1526
1527Pauladmin
1528BU got closer than anyone in actually getting BTC to upgrade to bigger blocks.
1529zveda
1530im_uname#100:lemon:
153166% lmao
1532oh wow
1533
1534Pauladmin
1535BU at one point had 50% of the hashrate on BTC (way before BCH existed) an there was a real chance that Bitcoin would have remained whole.
1536zveda
1537I rememebr that vaguely
1538yeah BU was getting real traction
1539even loyal BTC acolytes were switching to it actually
1540then wtf happened? the segwit 2x business?
1541
1542Pauladmin
1543There was a bug and the segwit2x false promise. Yep
1544zveda
1545oh BU bug
1546
1547Justin Bons
1548BU was instrumental in the creation of BCH, much of the BCH community was born from BU. It is a viable alternative to ABC considering the current circumstances
1549If ABC insists on pushing this through without consensus our priority should be to ensure that the ABC coin ends up as a minority split, this is not upto the miners but the market!
1550ABC pushing this through in the way they are will guerentee a split, everyone needs to be clear on this point
1551
1552HostFat
1553Justin Bons
1554If ABC insists on pushing this through without consensus our priority should be to ensure that the ABC coin ends up as a minorit
1555It needs miners voting to being enabled, it can't be enabled without consensus
1556
1557Justin Bons
1558With consensus, I really mean a large super majority, in order to make this non-controversial, at this point a miner vote does not ensure a non-split, considering how many parties still disagree with this change
1559zveda
1560HostFat
1561It needs miners voting to being enabled, it can't be enabled without consensus
1562seems the threshold will be only 66% now
1563
1564Justin Bons
1565Wow, that is sad, it should have been set at atleast 90%
1566zveda
1567don't trust me on that, i just saw from twitter
1568
1569Andy Chen
1570Paul
1571@andychenw do you know miners in China that don't want the dev tax?
1572Sorry I don’t know any
1573
1574Justin Bons
1575It does not really matter, even at 90% we will still see a split, as long as a large part of the market disagrees as they do now
1576
1577Pauladmin
1578Andy Chen
1579Sorry I don’t know any
1580No worries.
1581Данила
1582why 66% and not 95% as claimed previously?
1583zveda
1584i read before it was gonna be 95%
1585
1586Andy Chen
1587Kanat Amren
1588Do you think this is a good idea if we create a group in Weechat? I think that we can attract supporters from a party of Chinese
1589I don’t know who is the leader of no tax in China, let me find one
1590zveda
1591Данила
1592why 66% and not 95% as claimed previously?
1593https://twitter.com/btcfork/status/1228998361258352640
1594Twitter
1595bch 'make Bitcoin cash again' protocol upgrade
1596Just verified a few things around the miner tax plan. It is in ABC 0.21.0, nearing release, & contains - separate bip9 bits for General [0], ABC [1],...
1597
1598Justin Bons
1599Best possible scenario is that ABC drops this, second best scenario is that we fight to ensure ABC chain ends in second place
1600
1601im_uname#100:lemon:
1602HostFat
1603It needs miners voting to being enabled, it can't be enabled without consensus
160466% lol, it's even bad faith on miner voting
1605
1606Pauladmin
1607zveda
1608i read before it was gonna be 95%
1609That was speculation by those in support of the IFP.
1610Justin Bons
1611Best possible scenario is that ABC drops this, second best scenario is that we fight to ensure ABC chain ends in second place
1612:white_check_mark:
1613zveda
1614I think even if this doesn't go thru, amaury has to go
1615
1616im_uname#100:lemon:
1617zveda
1618I think even if this doesn't go thru, amaury has to go
1619indeed
1620
1621Justin Bons
1622Amaury is still a great developer who provides a lot of value to BCH, preferable he keeps working for BCH but without the power he has now to cause such distribution, this can be achieved by reducing ABC implementation dominance over the network, BU, flowee, BCHD are some of the good alternatives that should become more prominant in order to further distribute implementation power
1623Any single implementation should never become that dominant
1624Let's be nice to amaury here, no one should ever be in the position he is in now, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutly
1625He is following the incentives, we put him under, dont hate the player, hate the game ;)
1626Данила
1627good points
1628hopefully more miners start mining with the alternative clients
1629
1630Justin Bons
1631Miners only follow value post-split, we have more power then most think. Under this scenario the market and its accosiated propaganda machines are what will determine market dominance post-split
1632We just need a small minority of hashpower to kickstart the chain and a lot of politicking with exchanges, fortunately Bitcoin.com now also opposes ABC in this proposal
1633
1634im_uname#100:lemon:
1635Justin Bons
1636Amaury is still a great developer who provides a lot of value to BCH, preferable he keeps working for BCH but without the power
1637Two days ago I'd agree, and was indeed working to help him. Not anymore.
1638Fool me once, etc etc
1639
1640Pauladmin
1641@im_uname do you feel you were wrong this whole time or that something has changed?
1642
1643im_uname#100:lemon:
1644Paul
1645@im_uname do you feel you were wrong this whole time or that something has changed?
1646I was wrong and I accept any and all blame for unintentionally helping him gaslight people.
1647
1648Alexander Levinadmin
1649Justin Bons
1650We just need a small minority of hashpower to kickstart the chain and a lot of politicking with exchanges, fortunately Bitcoin.c
1651https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/f4ibk3/posted_without_comment/fhqxky6/?context=3
1652Posted without comment:
1653Posted in r/btc by u/MemoryDealers • 22 points and 20 comments
1654[Photo]
1655
1656Justin Bons
1657@im_uname I get what you mean, as a leader he needs to step back, it's just as a developer it is still a shame losing him, he will most likely leave if he does not get his way, if he does decide to stay then great, I do understand that this is unlikely
1658
1659im_uname#100:lemon:
1660I think he should go back to facebook or whereever he wants.
1661
1662Justin Bons
1663I dont blame you for thinking that
1664
1665Pauladmin
1666im_uname#100:lemon:
1667I was wrong and I accept any and all blame for unintentionally helping him gaslight people.
1668I'm glad you understand that now. IMO there is a reason why there has been so much division in BCH that we don't really see in other crypto projects. nChain obviously had a huge part to play in this too.
1669Andrea Suisani
1670Justin Bons
1671Amaury is still a great developer who provides a lot of value to BCH, preferable he keeps working for BCH but without the power
1672Sorry for the dumb question, but what are those unique things Amaury has done on the technical level?
1673
1674I'm more impressed by his social skills, if you ask me
1675
1676im_uname#100:lemon:
1677If we like this kind of behavior, we can try to hire Gregory Maxwell, who is not less talented.
1678
1679Kanat Amren
1680im_uname#100:lemon:
1681I think he should go back to facebook or whereever he wants.
1682+++++
1683
1684Justin Bons
1685Andrea Suisani
1686Sorry for the dumb question, but what are those unique things Amaury has done on the technical level? I'm more impressed by his
1687I was pretty excited about Avalanche tbh, there is a bunch of other things as well, in regards to his value as a developer this is what I have been told by other developers, as a non-dev myself I do relly on input from others there, someone who is sufficiently technically proficient is very welcome to try to correct me on this point
1688
1689Pauladmin
1690im_uname#100:lemon:
1691If we like this kind of behavior, we can try to hire Gregory Maxwell, who is not less talented.
1692I think he is already sniffing opportunity to create extra division.
1693
1694im_uname#100:lemon:
1695Justin Bons
1696I was pretty excited about Avalanche tbh, there is a bunch of other things as well, in regards to his value as a developer this
1697avalanche is quite far from ready and should be treated as experimental research. I'm cautiously optimistic about it, but it's not a thing to sacrifice literally anything else over.
1698
1699Justin Bons
1700Obvously his value as dev does not trump the need to remove him from this leadership position so the point is quite moot atleast practically speaking in terms of the dilemma we face now
1701My point was more that it would be ideal if he steps back and still works for BCH as a developer, acknowledging that it is unlikely after being dethroned, I am just saying to still give him that option
1702Andrea Suisani
1703Justin Bons
1704I was pretty excited about Avalanche tbh, there is a bunch of other things as well, in regards to his value as a developer this
1705You see, this is what I meant when I refer to his social skills. He's good at sell him self.
1706
1707On the technical side:
1708
1709- avalanche is a new consensus algo proposed by an anonymous group called teamrocket. What's his contribution to it?
1710
1711For the rest not saying is not good, I say it is not unique and could be substituted by someone equally skilled.
1712
1713What was bad imho is that his way of leading is very divisive.
1714
1715Other than that I don't agree his estimate about the amount of money to maintain abc, which is something between 2 and 4 mil year.
1716
1717According to Amaury someone is already funding ABC but this is not enough and he is asking for more.
1718
1719im_uname#100:lemon:
1720Justin Bons
1721My point was more that it would be ideal if he steps back and still works for BCH as a developer, acknowledging that it is unlik
1722I can respect that.
1723
1724Pauladmin
1725Let's not turn this into a shitting on ABC match. (I need to take my own advice on this too).
1726What else can we do about this right now to make sure it doesn't happen?
1727
1728Justin Bons
1729Paul
1730What else can we do about this right now to make sure it doesn't happen?
1731We have been here before, let's apply the lessons learnt from the BCH and BSV splits
1732
1733Pauladmin
1734Agreed. This is very sensible.
1735
1736Justin Bons
1737It is a information war, for peoples hearts and minds
1738
1739Pauladmin
1740Keeping as much of the ecosystem together as possible is the most important thing IMO.
1741
1742Justin Bons
1743Paul
1744Keeping as much of the ecosystem together as possible is the most important thing IMO.
1745Ideally no split, convincing ABC of that would be ideal
1746
1747Pauladmin
1748What are the key parts of the ecosystem.
1749
1750- Miners,
1751- Businesses,
1752- Infrastructure,
1753- Users,
1754- Exchanges,
1755- Developers,
1756
1757Justin Bons
1758Plan B, where most of prep goes into is to win the splitting game
1759
1760emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
1761Andy Chen
1762I don’t know who is the leader of no tax in China, let me find one
1763++++++++++++++++++++++
1764
1765Pauladmin
1766The more of those we can convince the more leverage we have to stop a split from occuring and the more strength we have if a split ends up happening.
1767
1768emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
1769Justin Bons
1770Best possible scenario is that ABC drops this, second best scenario is that we fight to ensure ABC chain ends in second place
1771:100:
1772
1773Justin Bons
1774Justin Bons
1775Plan B, where most of prep goes into is to win the splitting game
1776Which might also be the best way to avoid a split by gaining overwhelming support and spooking the miners not to continue
1777
1778Pauladmin
1779Yes, this should be the plan of action which is why I started this...https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/f4qgry/lets_have_a_show_of_hands_who_supports_the_ifp/
1780
1781reddit
1782Let's have a show of hands - Who supports the IFP (dev-tax)?
1783Or, more importantly, who is against it? It seems to me that almost the entire community is against this major change but it would be good if this...
1784
1785HostFat
1786im_uname#100:lemon:
178766% lol, it's even bad faith on miner voting
178866% is saver the 51%, that it is already "consensus"
1789
1790emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
1791Let’s stop focusing on amaury and focus on what needs to be done. If it helps, imagine that amaury has a physical or metaphorical gun to his head.
1792
1793Justin Bons
1794Paul
1795Yes, this should be the plan of action which is why I started this...https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/f4qgry/lets_have_a_sh
1796I am still not a fan of using the term "tax" in this way, it is overly devisive, while not being a sound argument for not supporting this, but you do you, I have already put my view out there on this topic of cemantics
1797
1798Pauladmin
1799I mean this is 'not a tax' in the same way that Bitcoin Cash is not actually 'cash'.
1800
1801Alexander Levinadmin
1802Paul
1803The more of those we can convince the more leverage we have to stop a split from occuring and the more strength we have if a spl
1804my opinion is the sooner bitcoin.com offers a mining endpoint running BU, makes it known that its BU, the higher the chances of IFP dying
1805
1806Justin Bons
1807emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
1808Let’s stop focusing on amaury and focus on what needs to be done. If it helps, imagine that amaury has a physical or metaphorica
1809If anything try to have some empathy for the man, I dont think he is a bad guy, he has been put in a position no one should ever be in for a creature such as Bitcoin. The goal should be unity, avoid using divisive terms and ad hominen
1810The greatest victory is turning an enemy into a friend
1811
1812Kanat Amren
1813Definately the tax
1814Tendo Pein joined the group
1815Mikotus joined the group
1816
1817emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
1818Justin Bons
1819If anything try to have some empathy for the man, I dont think he is a bad guy, he has been put in a position no one should ever
1820:+1:
1821
1822Alexander Levinadmin
1823Justin Bons
1824The greatest victory is turning an enemy into a friend
1825the risk is your enemy is still your enemy while pretending to be your friend
1826
1827emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
1828Alexander Levin
1829the risk is your enemy is still your enemy while pretending to be your friend
1830I think cards are mostly on the table now.
1831
1832Alexander Levinadmin
1833there are still gullible people
1834
1835Justin Bons
1836Alexander Levin
1837the risk is your enemy is still your enemy while pretending to be your friend
1838My point still stands, turning your enemy into a true friend is still the greatest victory
1839
1840Alexander Levinadmin
1841to me, victory is victory
1842
1843Justin Bons
1844A lofty goal, that should not detract from a pragmatic victory
1845Jose#124:airplane: joined the group
1846
1847Alexander Levinadmin
1848did debate and consensus work with blockstream? with craig? you want to learn from the past? start learning
1849instead of trying to make friends
1850
1851Justin Bons
1852Alexander Levin
1853to me, victory is victory
1854Let's just make sure it is not a pyrrhic victory
1855
1856Pauladmin
1857Justin Bons
1858My point still stands, turning your enemy into a true friend is still the greatest victory
1859This is definitely true but being realistic is also sensible.
1860Данила
1861Alexander Levin
1862did debate and consensus work with blockstream? with craig? you want to learn from the past? start learning
1863some people can't be reasoned with, some can
1864Fernando
1865Andrea Suisani
1866Sorry for the dumb question, but what are those unique things Amaury has done on the technical level? I'm more impressed by his
1867Me too
1868Shadders joined the group
1869Данила
1870in case someone didn't sign yet https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/f4qgry/lets_have_a_show_of_hands_who_supports_the_ifp/
1871Marxbys joined the group
1872thomas vandengoden
1873Justin Bons
1874My point was more that it would be ideal if he steps back and still works for BCH as a developer, acknowledging that it is unlik
1875In my world if you have running code then I don't care if you are green with horns or whatever :)
1876His code will be welcome, at least as long as it comes without long discussions and arguments.
1877
1878Justin Bons
1879thomas vandengoden
1880In my world if you have running code then I don't care if you are green with horns or whatever :) His code will be welcome, at l
1881Agreed, that is what I meant indeed
1882thomas vandengoden
1883@PWasensteiner you can add Flowee to the list of people that do NOT support the IPF. Or any fund that follows the lines as I explained them a month ago; https://read.cash/@TomZ/mythbusting-we-need-a-developer-fund-3e0d7f20
1884Mythbusting: We need a developer-fund
1885This myth has been going around the crypto sphere for some time.. Competing coin Dash has a system where funds are continuously generated that pay fo...
1886[Photo]
1887Gerard joined the group
1888thomas vandengoden
1889@PWasensteiner and you should add bitcoin com as their position was made clear in the video earlier. And BU made their position clear earlier too.
1890
1891Pauladmin
1892:+1:
1893
1894Justin Bons
1895Go ahead and add Cyber Capital to that list, I am the owner and managing director:
1896
1897Pauladmin
1898Added.
1899
1900Alexander Levinadmin
1901Justin Bons
1902Go ahead and add Cyber Capital to that list, I am the owner and managing director:
1903thst’s a big step for you
1904what happened?
1905
1906Justin Bons
1907https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/f4qgry/lets_have_a_show_of_hands_who_supports_the_ifp/fht1i5p?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
1908
1909reddit
1910Let's have a show of hands - Who supports the IFP (dev-tax)?
1911Or, more importantly, who is against it? It seems to me that almost the entire community is against this major change but it would be good if this...
1912Alexander Levin
1913what happened?
1914I am staying true to the positions I have held for a long time, consistance is important to me, as a matter of principle as well
1915I explained my reasoning in prevous articles, specifically such a centralized whitelist is a bad idea
1916zveda
1917hey is the voting already happening?
1918what are the miners saying
1919https://twitter.com/btcfork/status/1228998361258352640 seems to indicate they started voting in november ?
1920Twitter
1921bch 'make Bitcoin cash again' protocol upgrade
1922Just verified a few things around the miner tax plan. It is in ABC 0.21.0, nearing release, & contains - separate bip9 bits for General [0], ABC [1],...
1923or are the years wrong
1924
1925im_uname#100:lemon:
1926zveda
1927https://twitter.com/btcfork/status/1228998361258352640 seems to indicate they started voting in november ?
1928this year, not next year
1929zveda
1930o right thought so, thx
1931
1932Jonathan#100 ☯️
1933thomas vandengoden
1934@PWasensteiner and you should add bitcoin com as their position was made clear in the video earlier. And BU made their position
1935BU's position has not been voted on yet. It should be seen as premature to speak for all of BU without following BU's own practices.
1936
1937im_uname#100:lemon:
1938basically when the code's in, any stretch of two weeks that has over 66% will activate the plan.
1939
1940Pauladmin
1941im_uname#100:lemon:
1942basically when the code's in, any stretch of two weeks that has over 66% will activate the plan.
1943Ok, so the 2016 blocks aren't counted in batches. It is rolling?
1944
1945Jonathan#100 ☯️
1946Paul
1947Ok, so the 2016 blocks aren't counted in batches. It is rolling?
1948yes, over a set of blocks matching "roughly" 2 weeks.
1949
1950Pauladmin
1951OK. Thanks.
1952
1953Jonathan#100 ☯️
1954which is concerning to me on many levels. not least because it might happen during a period of heavy gaming of the DAA.
1955
1956Pauladmin
1957So basically a hardfork can happen at any time.
1958
1959im_uname#100:lemon:
1960*softfork
1961thomas vandengoden
1962Jonathan#100 ☯️
1963BU's position has not been voted on yet. It should be seen as premature to speak for all of BU without following BU's own practi
1964right. So just some devs that happen to work with BU, but BU as an org is still unclear.
1965
1966im_uname#100:lemon:
1967there's a reason why the original BIP9 requires 95%
1968and that's on a sole chain.
1969
1970Pauladmin
1971im_uname#100:lemon:
1972*softfork
1973Is it really a softfork though is the other 34% reject it?
1974Sure when it gets activated it becomes a hardfork.
1975Or maybe this is just a problem with the terminology. I mean split, not hard fork.
1976
1977im_uname#100:lemon:
1978Paul
1979Is it really a softfork though is the other 34% reject it?
1980per BIP9, exchange nodes etc are supposed to enforce it once locked in, so the other 34% will fork to nothing unless they find similarly against economic nodes that serve them.
1981thomas vandengoden
1982personally I dislike the different naming. "soft vs hard forks" were invented to confuse.
1983
1984Pauladmin
1985thomas vandengoden
1986personally I dislike the different naming. "soft vs hard forks" were invented to confuse.
1987Or manipulate.
1988thomas vandengoden
1989im_uname#100:lemon:
1990per BIP9, exchange nodes etc are supposed to enforce it once locked in, so the other 34% will fork to nothing unless they find s
1991in the original bip9 there is a timeout. Once locked in it will take some weeks so miners can prepare (this is how we got bch after it was locked in, but before it was mined).
1992
1993Any idea if they have a timeout?
1994Paul
1995Or manipulate.
1996++++
1997zveda
1998thomas vandengoden
1999personally I dislike the different naming. "soft vs hard forks" were invented to confuse.
2000++++
2001oh you don't have the bot here
2002thomas vandengoden
2003no @spiceBot
2004Andrea Suisani
2005zveda
2006hey is the voting already happening?
2007No. It's just that ABC set as a starting point of the voting window Nov 15th 2019, so it's like the voting started in the past even thou nobody was aware of it
2008
2009Alexander Levinadmin
2010“3 The donation plan will last for 6 months (as one version is valid for a maximum period of 6 months). I suggest that we stop the fund raising after 6 months, and we may restart it eventually to prevent it becoming a permanent rule.  
2011
2012 4 There are numerous objections now, I am inclined to start the donation plan after that the community reaches a basic agreement. If they fail to achieve it, we could set up the General Foundation first, let’s see its operation effect funding by donation, then we could proceed the hash voting next time.”
2013
2014Tom Harding
2015Nobody must run the new ABC code. This would seem to be priority #1 and focus.
2016Also, because of the idiotic poison pill, nobody must run the old ABC code.
2017
2018Alexander Levinadmin
2019https://t.co/icdqpX0Sdo?amp=1
2020BCH miner donation plan update again
2021It will start by the hash voting, if 2/3 of network hash agrees, the donation plan will be put into effect. (I believe the miners have right to vote o...
2022[Photo]
2023thomas vandengoden
2024Alexander Levin
2025“3 The donation plan will last for 6 months (as one version is valid for a maximum period of 6 months). I suggest that we stop t
2026you should add quotes or something. I just read it like it was your opinion.
2027
2028Kanat Amren
2029Alexander Levin
2030https://t.co/icdqpX0Sdo?amp=1
2031voting is begin.
2032
2033Alexander Levinadmin
2034thomas vandengoden
2035you should add quotes or something. I just read it like it was your opinion.
2036done
2037Данила
2038Alexander Levin
2039https://t.co/icdqpX0Sdo?amp=1
2040"if 2/3 of network hash agrees, the donation plan will be put into effect. (I believe the miners have right to vote on how to spend their output)."
2041
2042Imagine thinking that the majority represents the whole. A typical collectivist fallacy.
2043thomas vandengoden
2044it has a name: the Tyranny of the majority
2045Andrea Suisani
2046Alexander Levin
2047“3 The donation plan will last for 6 months (as one version is valid for a maximum period of 6 months). I suggest that we stop t
2048Seems like point 3 has been dissed in the ABC latest proposal unless I'm mistaken
2049
2050Alexander Levinadmin
2051that’s why stopping the ifp after 6 months is now a mere suggestion
2052
2053Pauladmin
2054Well, technically all they need to do is keep the poison pill and promise to remove the tax in the next hardfork version.
2055Andrea Suisani
2056Alexander Levin
2057that’s why stopping the ifp after 6 months is now a mere suggestion
2058Didn't realize that this was a quote of something Jiang just published
2059
2060im_uname#100:lemon:
2061segwit2x vibes
2062Andrea Suisani
2063im_uname#100:lemon:
2064segwit2x vibes
2065Yeah, indeed fundStopAfter6months
2066
2067Kanat Amren
2068https://twitter.com/vinarmani/status/1229046971031097345?s=19
2069Ⓥin Ⓐrmani
2070With all of the IFP noise, I guess the fact that the 25 unconfirmed tx limit (a point of controversy) is being doubled (to 50) in the May upgrade has...
2071[Photo]
2072
2073Alexander Levinadmin
2074if there is no agreement, all funds go to “general fund”
2075
2076Pauladmin
2077"If there is no agreement we remove all transparency"
2078Andrea Suisani
2079Kanat Amren
2080https://twitter.com/vinarmani/status/1229046971031097345?s=19
2081@dagurval coded that and hooked to fork activation in the last few days before the coin freeze
2082Fernando
2083thomas vandengoden
2084@PWasensteiner you can add Flowee to the list of people that do NOT support the IPF. Or any fund that follows the lines as I exp
2085Please add me to that list
2086
2087Pauladmin
2088Sure. Do you still work at Bitprim?
2089Fernando
2090Tom Harding
2091Nobody must run the new ABC code. This would seem to be priority #1 and focus. Also, because of the idiotic poison pill, nobody
2092We can release an ABC fork without the IFP changes
2093
2094Kanat Amren
2095Fernando
2096We can release an ABC fork without the IFP changes
2097Who are we?
2098
2099Pauladmin
2100Fernando
2101We can release an ABC fork without the IFP changes
2102Who should I put you down as?
2103
2104emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
2105@PWasensteiner please add me as individual and dev. Company also but it's not public so ?‍♂️
2106Georg Engelmann
2107Fernando
2108We can release an ABC fork without the IFP changes
2109https://github.com/georgengelmann/bitcoin-abc/commits/master
2110
2111GitHub
2112georgengelmann/bitcoin-abc
2113This a mirror of the official Bitcoin-ABC repository. Please see README.md - georgengelmann/bitcoin-abc
2114Fernando
2115Paul
2116Sure. Do you still work at Bitprim?
2117Bitprim broke, unfortunately. The project died, along with Keoken and everything we were doing in the company.
2118In August 2019 I was hired by ABC to remove the 25-transaction limitation.
2119Instead, they had me all that time doing Core backporting.
2120I quit ABC, for 2 reasons: 
21211. Because they had me as an ape copying Core code (it's the only thing really done in there), and...
21222. Because from January 22 I began to feel that what happened yesterday was going to happen.
2123So now, I am working on a new node, derived from Bitprim:
2124https://github.com/k-nuth/kth
2125
2126GitHub
2127k-nuth/kth
2128High performance Bitcoin development platform. Contribute to k-nuth/kth development by creating an account on GitHub.
2129
2130Kanat Amren
2131Fernando
2132Bitprim broke, unfortunately. The project died, along with Keoken and everything we were doing in the company. In August 2019 I
2133Nice
2134
2135Pauladmin
2136emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
2137@PWasensteiner please add me as individual and dev. Company also but it's not public so ?‍♂️
2138:+1:
2139Fernando
2140Kanat Amren
2141Who are we?
2142Those who oppose the IFP.
2143
2144Kanat Amren
2145Fernando
2146Those who oppose the IFP.
2147I thought BU will do that.
2148Fernando
2149ah ok
2150
2151Kanat Amren
2152@dgenr8
2153
2154Eric
2155@kotarius thanks for tag. @PWasensteiner absolutely legendary. have used that post to bring people up to speed that were not actually around back then, was so accurate.
2156
2157Pauladmin
2158:+1:
2159John Marks
2160Hey guys I have a great idea: let's pay devs $3m, reduce the coin security by same amount, and then lose at least a billion in a fork ;)
2161
2162Pauladmin
2163We lost about $500m today alone.
2164
2165emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
2166emergent_reasons#100:cactus:Feb 16, 2020 8:45:30 AM
2167@Jf010 If you are worried about Jiang et al who have been paying a lot (I am), I hope you see that what is about to happen is 1000x worse for them than just paying for it or paying for an alternate implementation or working on more fair fund-the-commons mechanisms. I think it's time to stand up and say it's no bueno. 66% JFC.
2168
2169Peter Rizun
2170But BSV went down even more.  I don't think we can attribute the fall in price to the dev tax.  I might agree if BCH had fallen 15% and all the other coins had fallen only a few %.
2171
2172emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
2173Yes. The price changes are who-the-fuck-knows-why, but a split is pretty much 100% chance of major pain to whales.
2174
2175im_uname#100:lemon:
2176Peter Rizun
2177But BSV went down even more. I don't think we can attribute the fall in price to the dev tax. I might agree if BCH had fallen
2178bsv is more highly correlated with bch than other coins.
2179
2180Peter Rizun
2181True
2182
2183Joe Fintec
2184John Marks
2185Hey guys I have a great idea: let's pay devs $3m, reduce the coin security by same amount, and then lose at least a billion in a
2186:+1: i like this - it absolutely makes sense to fork and split the community and cause chaos for months especially ahead of the halving especially if the money in question is less than 0.1% of the marketcap
2187Paul
2188Flipstarter and U-DID.
2189https://read.cash/@flipstarter/flipstarter-695d4d50
2190Flipstarter
2191There are some big questions in the air right now in the Bitcoin Cash space. One of them is about voluntary funding of the Bitcoin Cash commons.. C...
2192[Photo]
2193https://twitter.com/pokkst/status/1228885715804663808
2194Twitter
2195pokkst (@pokkst) | Twitter
2196The latest Tweets from pokkst (@pokkst). pokkst [at] protonmail [dot] com | Developer of @crescentcash and @tipbitcoincash. localhost
2197thomas vandengoden
2198Pokkst These Tweets are protected
2199checksum0 joined the group
2200
2201checksum0
2202emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
2203Yes. The price changes are who-the-fuck-knows-why, but a split is pretty much 100% chance of major pain to whales.
2204There's a fund with close to a million bch getting out, they don't care they bought under 150$.
2205
2206When you insult your investors you gotta pay. Part of these funds will be used to fund the hashwar part 2. Good luck, they warned you all.
2207
2208Joe Fintec
2209now you're back
2210James Howells joined the group
2211
2212James Howells
2213#NoTax
2214
2215Collin #SaveTheOrphans :man::woman::girl::boy:
2216
2217
2218Pauladmin
2219Hey @howelzy :wave:
2220
2221Joe Fintec
2222i'm surprised anybody buying the dumps....they seem to bet on price appreciation towards halving
2223
2224Alexander Levinadmin
2225checksum0
2226There's a fund with close to a million bch getting out, they don't care they bought under 150$. When you insult your investors
2227@checkwhat is udrfein mean (honest question)?
2228
2229Joe Fintec
2230This message is currently not supported on Telegram Web. Try getdesktop.telegram.org.
2231
2232Pauladmin
2233Alexander Levin
2234@checkwhat is udrfein mean (honest question)?
2235Yes, that was a key word in the sentence.
2236
2237Alexander Levinadmin
2238sorry for misphrasing question, i am asking what that word means
2239
2240Pauladmin
2241I think it is a typo.
2242
2243Alexander Levinadmin
2244of which word lol
2245
2246Pauladmin
2247I don't know ?
2248
2249Alexander Levinadmin
2250lol
2251
2252Pauladmin
2253I don't think he is in the group any more.
2254
2255Joe Fintec
2256i think it means covfefe
2257
2258Pauladmin
2259Seems he came in here to give us a heads up then left again.
2260
2261Joe Fintec
2262Paul
2263Seems he came in here to give us a heads up then left again.
2264if they want to sell they wait closer towards halving
2265
2266Alexander Levinadmin
2267the heads up seems to come right after the candle
2268not before
2269
2270Joe Fintec
2271or sell 30k every day
2272
2273Alexander Levinadmin
2274literally anyone can do that
2275
2276Joe Fintec
2277Joe Fintec
2278Unsupported attachment
2279should i restart the poll adding the option fork split with abc majority and fork split with bu majority?
2280Pickle Brick
2281Joe Fintec
2282Unsupported attachment
2283Anyone here want to bet against a split?
2284
2285Alexander Levinadmin
2286a split is not a binary option
2287checksum0 joined the group
2288
2289Alexander Levinadmin
2290there can be a 99%/1% "split" by definition
2291Pickle Brick
2292Sounds binary to me?
2293
2294checksum0
2295Alexander Levin
2296@checkwhat is udrfein mean (honest question)?
2297"Will be used to fund". Weird autocorrect, that's not even a word in French
2298
2299Alexander Levinadmin
2300thank you
2301hash war against ifp?
2302
2303checksum0
2304Of course lol
2305
2306Alexander Levinadmin
2307Pickle Brick
2308Sounds binary to me?
2309i mean to say that the 99% is the only thing that will matter
2310checksum0
2311Of course lol
2312great :)
2313i'll do my best to contribute politically
2314
2315Joe Fintec
2316AS is ok with a lottery system if someone else builds it
2317
2318Alexander Levinadmin
2319where do you guys like to watch bch price graph/ticker/
2320i usually watch coinmarketcap but i find myself wanting to look at faster updates
2321
2322Joe Fintec
2323https://www.bitstamp.net/market/tradeview/
2324
2325Pauladmin
2326I tend to use poloniex.
2327I am sure there are better ones though.
2328I miss the good old days of bitcoinity.
2329
2330Alexander Levinadmin
2331me too
2332back when it mattered
2333
2334Pauladmin
2335Ah the sweet sweet one hour long gox lag.
2336
2337Alexander Levinadmin
2338Joe Fintec
2339https://www.bitstamp.net/market/tradeview/
2340thank you, this is very nice
2341exactly what i was looking for
2342
2343Joe Fintec
2344Alexander Levin
2345exactly what i was looking for
2346or https://tradeblock.com/markets/bfnx/bchab-usd/1d/
2347
2348TradeBlock
2349TradeBlock is the world's leading provider of institutional trading tools for digital currencies.
2350
2351Alexander Levinadmin
2352Joe Fintec
2353https://www.bitstamp.net/market/tradeview/
2354https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGSnyciBCTA
2355YouTube
2356Should I buy back?
2357https://twitter.com/1thousandx https://www.instagram.com/onethousandx/ https://soundcloud.com/1thousandx
2358[Video]
2359Nakamoto Consensus joined the group
2360Nobody Nose joined the group
2361
2362Joe Fintec
2363there a bch lottery all it needs is a modification for funds to be shared with devs or projects..... https://www.nakamotogame.com/lottery
2364NAKAMOTO GAME
2365No Registration · Instant Payouts · Provable Fairness
2366[Photo]
2367https://read.cash/@Jiang_Zhuoer_BTC.TOP_CEO/bch-miner-donation-plan-update-again-72ea9248
2368BCH miner donation plan update again
2369It will start by the hash voting, if 2/3 of network hash agrees, the donation plan will be put into effect. (I believe the miners have right to vote o...
2370[Photo]
2371"There are numerous objections now, I am inclined to start the donation plan after that the community reaches a basic agreement. If they fail to achieve it, we could set up the General Foundation first, let’s see its operation effect funding by donation, then we could proceed the hash voting next time."
2372
2373Joey B. Ho Lee Fuk
2374can we all make it clear to everyone BIP9 is a flawed method to get consensus, since BCH only has 4% of total hash
2375
2376Alexander Levinadmin
2377bip9 was first proposed by the luminaries at blockstream to push through controversial softforks
2378
2379Joe Fintec
2380Joey B. Ho Lee Fuk
2381can we all make it clear to everyone BIP9 is a flawed method to get consensus, since BCH only has 4% of total hash
2382not flawed - just an incentive for bsv and btc to control the future of bch
2383
2384Joey B. Ho Lee Fuk
2385yeah and what do you think they will do if given the choice to pick the worst outcome for BCH or not for market confidence...
2386
2387Joe Fintec
2388it's funny how the sentiment changed - feels like 80% are against the ifp now
2389
2390Alexander Levinadmin
2391more than 80%
2392
2393Joey B. Ho Lee Fuk
2394It's not obvious enough to the public imo
2395
2396Collin #SaveTheOrphans :man::woman::girl::boy:
2397english speaking
2398now we all go to chinese chats and use translators lol
2399
2400Joey B. Ho Lee Fuk
2401on r btc it still looks like its not majority
2402I should go on bch wechat more
2403
2404Joe Fintec
2405Collin #SaveTheOrphans :man::woman::girl::boy:
2406english speaking
2407like this? 反对税收
2408反对ifp
2409反对江卓尔
2410
2411Alexander Levinadmin
2412if you are not chinese, dont bother with chinese miners
2413
2414Collin #SaveTheOrphans :man::woman::girl::boy:
2415Joe Fintec
2416like this? 反对税收 反对ifp 反对江卓尔
2417nailed it
2418
2419Alexander Levinadmin
2420you will look like them to us
2421what would happen if some chinese guy joined this channel and spammed us with bad english?
2422
2423Joe Fintec
2424Alexander Levin
2425what would happen if some chinese guy joined this channel and spammed us with bad english?
2426it's perfect chinese
2427
2428im_uname#100:lemon:
2429Joe Fintec
2430like this? 反对税收 反对ifp 反对江卓尔
2431I'd keep it to issues instead of jiang himself.
2432
2433Joe Fintec
2434jiang wanted to surpress the debate that's worse than proposing shit
2435and he wouldn't communicate really he did one ama where he basically said i don't give a shit about others' opinion
2436fuck this maoist
2437at least AS is in dialogue
2438he lost the 2mb upgrade, he lost the segwit opposition he will lose this as well
2439
2440Joe Fintec
2441https://read.cash/@noise/a-developers-thoughts-about-bitcoin-cash-development-b1171643
2442A developer's thoughts about Bitcoin Cash development
2443You don't know me. I've been a Bitcoin supporter for many years, way before Bitcoin Cash was created and before the big scaling debate, but I've never...
2444[Photo]
2445
2446Andy Chen
2447I think amaury take bch or abc as his personal propety
2448
2449Joe Fintec
2450i once worked on a project with a french dev who literally went crazy - nervous breakdown - he deleted everything created overnight and tried to blackmail me - too much fucking weed
2451
2452Andy Chen
2453That’s why he don’t put the code contributions on github
2454Cos he like the platform he used in Facebook
2455Instead of github which most programmers used
2456
2457im_uname#100:lemon:
2458Andy Chen
2459I think amaury take bch or abc as his personal propety
2460that has been going on for a while. but right now even some of the people who tolerated that shit (me) have to rebel because you do not fuck with coin distribution.
2461
2462Andy Chen
2463In deep of his mind, he think bch and abc is “his” instead of owned by the world
2464
2465Alexander Levinadmin
2466he will be yelling to himself “i cant believe they betrayed me” for some time, after he loses
2467and thats ok
2468
2469Joe Fintec
2470im_uname#100:lemon:
2471that has been going on for a while. but right now even some of the people who tolerated that shit (me) have to rebel because you
2472:+1:
2473Andy Chen
2474In deep of his mind, he think bch and abc is “his” instead of owned by the world
2475looks like it
2476Joe Fintec
2477Unsupported attachment
2478i wonder what other scenarios people think are most likely?
2479
2480emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
2481Who gives a shit about what amaury thinks. He could be a totally misunderstood angel. He could have a gun to his head. It's not really material to the next steps.
2482
2483Eric
2484emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
2485Who gives a shit about what amaury thinks. He could be a totally misunderstood angel. He could have a gun to his head. It's not
2486thank you.
2487Josh Green joined the group
2488
2489Josh Green
2490Hello fellow dissenters.
2491
2492Collin #SaveTheOrphans :man::woman::girl::boy:
2493Josh Green
2494Hello fellow dissenters.
2495*anti-bch
2496
2497Josh Green
2498Is there a plan or conversation started with any miners?
2499
2500Eric
2501Josh Green
2502Is there a plan or conversation started with any miners?
2503Yes, early one. Not in here, though.
2504
2505Drogoteca
2506emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
2507Who gives a shit about what amaury thinks. He could be a totally misunderstood angel. He could have a gun to his head. It's not
2508Amaury is an asshole: following his steps doesn't predict nothing good for the rest of the people.
2509Pickle Brick
2510https://cash.coin.dance/nodes
2511
2512cash.coin.dance
2513Community-driven Bitcoin Statistics and Services.
2514Find out which Bitcoin Cash node implementations the community is running and learn about what sets each implementation apart.
2515
2516Spartan
2517Collin #SaveTheOrphans :man::woman::girl::boy:
2518*anti-bch
2519Anti btax
2520
2521Collin #SaveTheOrphans :man::woman::girl::boy:
2522thanks bsver
2523
2524Spartan
2525Remember Roger controls most bch media and r/BTC, his branch of fork will get BCH tag.
2526Pickle Brick
2527I am surprised at how the gap has closed in node count between abc and bu
2528
2529Spartan
2530Is mark lundeberg supporting the tax?
2531Andrew
2532@PickleBrick BU is actually ahead a little in in-consensus nodes.  There are a lot of un-upgraded ABC nodes,  I could only speculate why...
2533Zeb Demian joined the group
2534Pickle Brick
2535Is there a BUIP for this controversey? I don't see it in the list of published and the unpublished ones have nothing shown
2536
2537Joe Fintec
2538[Photo]
2539Peter Tschipper
2540@PickleBrick https://bitco.in/forum/threads/buip143-refuse-the-coinbase-tax.25512/
2541
2542Bitcoin Forum
2543BUIP143: Refuse the Coinbase Tax
2544BUIP143: Refuse the coinbase tax
2545Submitted by: Andrew Stone
2546Date: 2020/01/27
2547
2548In this BUIP I am asking you to make the most important decision in the...
2549
2550Peter Rizun
2551Question for you guys:
2552
2553Obviously the best outcome is that the dev tax proposal is withdrawn or at least never activated.  But we need to plan for the potentiality that it does in fact get activated.  In such a case, is it better to trigger a chain split, or is it better to accept the tax and remain as one chain?
2554
2555(The dev tax is a soft fork, so a split will not necessarily happen automatically.)
2556
2557Alexander Levinadmin
2558if it gets activated with minority support, a split is not damaging. like cutting off a fingernail
2559Pickle Brick
2560I think splits in chains are a great way of resolving toxicity. Worked great with BSV.
2561
2562Peter Rizun
2563Alexander Levin
2564if it gets activated with minority support, a split is not damaging. like cutting off a fingernail
2565It will get activated if 66% of the blocks in a 2016-block window vote for it.  It will be unclear at that point how much real hash power support is behind it.  But this will be the point when the chain will need to split, if it is going to split.
2566
2567Alexander Levinadmin
2568it is never a good idea to accept taxes for unity. they will just ask for more money later. the revolution will be more damaging when there’s more freedom to gain
2569
2570im_uname#100:lemon:
2571Alexander Levin
2572if it gets activated with minority support, a split is not damaging. like cutting off a fingernail
2573need to work out different scenarios, since hashrate is fluid and a lot of things can happen. the funny thing is trying to pull a controversial soft fork on a minority chain is basically guaranteeing a hashwar.
2574
2575Alexander Levinadmin
2576Peter Rizun
2577It will get activated if 66% of the blocks in a 2016-block window vote for it. It will be unclear at that point how much real h
2578i do not recognize the authority of a bip9 voting mechanism, especially on
2579bch: a chain with 1/20th of the world’s hashrate
2580
2581Joe Fintec
2582
2583Joe Fintec
2584Photo
2585that's former blockstream cto greg maxwell - what's he looking for ? he is very active on /r/btc
2586Fernando
2587Remember that this group is public, is it good to show our cards?
2588
2589Alexander Levinadmin
2590what cards have we shown
2591
2592im_uname#100:lemon:
2593nah, no cards are really shown. people are already openly talking about a split on /r/btc anyway.
2594
2595Joe Fintec
2596my only card is the queen of hearts
2597Fernando
2598:+1:
2599
2600Alexander Levinadmin
2601Peter Rizun
2602It will get activated if 66% of the blocks in a 2016-block window vote for it. It will be unclear at that point how much real h
2603hashrate support will become clear soon. in the mean time read this: https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/f4qgry/lets_have_a_show_of_hands_who_supports_the_ifp/
2604
2605reddit
2606Let's have a show of hands - Who supports the IFP (dev-tax)?
2607Or, more importantly, who is against it? It seems to me that almost the entire community is against this major change but it would be good if this...
2608John Marks
2609Peter Rizun
2610Question for you guys: Obviously the best outcome is that the dev tax proposal is withdrawn or at least never activated. But w
2611I think there are too many nuances to decide yet. Like if the whitelisted addresses included all devs (or miners voted bip9 for which addresses to whitelist) there would be a lot more support. This version? I guess I'd prefer the split.
2612But even then I'm on the fence
2613I hate losing brainpower and mindshare - were already way too small relative to btc and esp eth
2614
2615Joe Fintec
2616John Marks
2617I hate losing brainpower and mindshare - were already way too small relative to btc and esp eth
2618in terms of brainpower?
2619
2620Alexander Levinadmin
2621lots of mindshare in that thread. we lose a lot more by disenfranchising all those people who voiced their support against IFP, put their company names on the line
2622because they believed in honest money more than their own projects
2623or at least more than suffering possible political backlash
2624カルム ? Calem Smith ?:rainbow: ミカ | Zerozed | x0z.io joined the group
2625John Marks
2626Joe Fintec
2627in terms of brainpower?
2628For eth hell yes
2629
2630Alexander Levinadmin
2631eth has a governance problem, invited social engineers to fork their mining algo
2632i dont worry about eth anymore
2633Mike In Space joined the group
2634Bitcoin Cash joined the group
2635John Marks
2636Alexander Levin
2637eth has a governance problem, invited social engineers to fork their mining algo
2638Which crypto doesn't have a governance issue?
2639
2640Eric
2641John Marks
2642Which crypto doesn't have a governance issue?
2643tether
2644Bitcoin Cash
2645Eric
2646tether
2647Lol
2648
2649Spartan
2650John Marks
2651Which crypto doesn't have a governance issue?
2652SV
2653
2654Joe Fintec
2655doge
2656Andrew
2657I disagree that it would be ok to tax if a lot more devs are included.  My principles aren't for sale.
2658
2659Joe Fintec
2660Andrew
2661I disagree that it would be ok to tax if a lot more devs are included. My principles aren't for sale.
2662:+1:
2663
2664Eric
2665Andrew
2666I disagree that it would be ok to tax if a lot more devs are included. My principles aren't for sale.
2667don’t know who proposed it, but “notax” to mean means that. none.  ever.
2668
2669Alexander Levinadmin
2670John Marks
2671I think there are too many nuances to decide yet. Like if the whitelisted addresses included all devs (or miners voted bip9 for
2672According to Jiang, it seems you were not able to generate consensus for which fund you support. your money now goes to General Fund. Thank you for your contribution.
2673
2674Joe Fintec
2675Peter Rizun
2676Question for you guys: Obviously the best outcome is that the dev tax proposal is withdrawn or at least never activated. But w
2677reality is this tax shit has no majority
2678they made it sound like it at the beginning - but the narrative has changed
2679
2680Kanat Amren
2681Joe Fintec
2682reality is this tax shit has no majority
2683What about hashrate majority?
2684
2685Joe Fintec
2686they showed weakness twice - they are scared now
2687they know a split a lose-lose
2688
2689Kanat Amren
2690Do you mean Roger?
2691
2692Joe Fintec
2693Kanat Amren
2694Do you mean Roger?
2695jiang and jihan
2696
2697Kanat Amren
2698And btc.top was second one?
2699
2700Joe Fintec
2701Kanat Amren
2702And btc.top was second one?
2703he changed twice already
2704
2705Alexander Levinadmin
2706Joe Fintec
2707jiang and jihan
2708i have not seen jihan/antpool make any public statements in support of IFP
2709
2710Kanat Amren
2711I talked to btc.top support
2712They are agree with it
2713
2714Alexander Levinadmin
2715btc.top is jiang, not jihan
2716
2717Joe Fintec
2718agree with what?
2719
2720Alexander Levinadmin
2721we all know jiang supports ifp, this is not news
2722
2723Kanat Amren
2724Alexander Levin
2725btc.top is jiang, not jihan
2726I think Jihan Wu the main person in this case
2727
2728Joe Fintec
2729Kanat Amren
2730I think Jihan Wu the main person in this case
2731duh
2732
2733Alexander Levinadmin
2734why do you think this?
2735
2736Kanat Amren
27371 mm bch on the wallet, and major hashrate. I think Jiang is just public person for this.
2738Haipo and Jihan just lookin for reaction.
2739Not yes, not no for public. But it is definitely yes.
2740
2741Alexander Levinadmin
2742Kanat Amren
2743Not yes, not no for public. But it is definitely yes.
2744got it, no evidence
2745
2746Kanat Amren
2747I am trying to reach Jihan but no response yet.
2748
2749Joe Fintec
2750Alexander Levin
2751got it, no evidence
2752why do you think jihan is quiet?
2753
2754Alexander Levinadmin
2755jihan have me his business card and i dont even try to reach him
2756
2757Eric
2758Joe Fintec
2759why do you think jihan is quiet?
2760on the phone with him now. he says ni hao
2761
2762Alexander Levinadmin
2763he is not available for you
2764for free comments to help
2765you understand the future better
2766
2767Kanat Amren
2768This is not very good for a reputation. He does not want to mess about it. He wants to expose the situation so Napoleon suggested and we agreed. And Napoleon will say that Jiang offered and we agreed.
2769
2770Joe Fintec
2771dialogue at this point should be more in his interest than the no-taxers imho
2772
2773Alexander Levinadmin
2774jihan does not care what you think about his reputation
2775
2776Joe Fintec
2777Alexander Levin
2778jihan does not care what you think about his reputation
2779how do you know?
2780
2781Kanat Amren
2782Alexander Levin
2783jihan does not care what you think about his reputation
2784ОК :)
2785
2786Joe Fintec
2787when did jihan's mining power decide shit? 2mb? segwit? siacoin fork? sw on ltc?
2788
2789:cookie: biscuit
2790
2791You know you love taxes
2792
2793Kanat Amren
2794Alexander Levin
2795jihan have me his business card and i dont even try to reach him
2796I think it is good time to do that now.
2797
2798Alexander Levinadmin
2799you can think that
2800
2801Joe Fintec
2802actually sia is a funny example as the devs tried to tax miners with their hardware monopoly - jihan issued some hardware before but then got f-ed
2803
2804Kanat Amren
2805Joe Fintec
2806actually sia is a funny example as the devs tried to tax miners with their hardware monopoly - jihan issued some hardware before
2807Agreed.
2808
2809:cookie: biscuit
2810
2811
2812Alexander Levinadmin
2813Eric
2814on the phone with him now. he says ni hao
2815free consulting for gweilo
2816
2817Joe Fintec
2818i'm pretty sure they have their chinese spies here
2819
2820Alexander Levinadmin
2821i hope they do
2822
2823Eric
2824shay fung pei??!??!
2825wait, better
2826谁放屁
2827
2828Alexander Levinadmin
2829i got one for the chinese
2830动态网自由门 天安門 天安门 法輪功 李洪志 Free Tibet 六四天安門事件 The Tiananmen Square protests of 1989 天安門大屠殺 The Tiananmen Square Massacre 反右派鬥爭 The Anti-Rightist Struggle 大躍進政策 The Great Leap Forward 文化大革命 The Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution 人權 Human Rights 民運 Democratization 自由 Freedom 獨立 9pm 諾貝爾和平獎 Nobel Peace Prize 劉暁波 Liu Xiaobo 民主 言論 思想 反共 反革命 抗議 運動 騷亂 暴亂 騷擾 擾亂 抗暴 平反 維權 示威游行 李洪志 法輪大法 大法弟子 強制斷種 強制堕胎 民族淨化 人體實驗 肅清 胡耀邦 屠殺 活摘器官 誘拐 買賣人口 遊進 走私 毒品 賣淫 春畫 賭博 六合彩 天安門 天安门 法輪功 李洪志 Winnie the Pooh 劉曉波动态网自由门 Hong Kong
2831
2832Joe Fintec
2833i already got an angry 5mao trying to call me
2834
2835im_uname#100:lemon:
2836Alexander Levin
2837动态网自由门 天安門 天安门 法輪功 李洪志 Free Tibet 六四天安門事件 The Tiananmen Square protests of 1989 天安門大屠殺 The Tiananmen Square Massacre 反右派鬥爭 The A
2838that is like boilerplate "troll chinese" copypasta - entertaining for a while, but i'll not post it just to get lulz
2839
2840Joe Fintec
2841[Photo]
2842没有共产党就没有新问题
2843
2844Eric
2845im_uname#100:lemon:
2846that is like boilerplate "troll chinese" copypasta - entertaining for a while, but i'll not post it just to get lulz
2847-
2848
2849Alexander Levinadmin
2850Eric
2851谁放屁
2852[?? Sticker]
2853
2854:cookie: biscuit
2855
2856Joe Fintec
2857Photo
2858This message is currently not supported on Telegram Web. Try getdesktop.telegram.org.
2859Marcel Chuo joined the group
2860
2861Joe Fintec
2862they can't afford a hashwar atm - selling bch would dump price even before the halving
2863[Photo]
2864maoist tactics: The enemy advances, we retreat; the enemy camps, we harass; the enemy tires, we attack; the enemy retreats, we pursue.
2865sun tzu's art of war: "Appear weak when you are strong, and strong when you are weak."
2866
2867J. K Bezoz UnaBoomer 2.0
2868I just want to bang my head against a fricken wall, people I trust vouch for Amaury but his actions don't seem to make me willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. Unless I am interpreting things incorrectly.
2869
2870Joe Fintec
2871it's a shit test for the sane people
2872if bch fails it it doesn't deserve to live on as bitcoin anyways
2873Gal Buki (torusJKL) joined the group
2874
2875Gal Buki (torusJKL)
2876Peter Rizun
2877Question for you guys: Obviously the best outcome is that the dev tax proposal is withdrawn or at least never activated. But w
2878The question is who can lobby the exchanges better.
2879
2880If you have them on your side: split
2881If you don't: do not split
2882Fernando
2883Bitprim broke, unfortunately. The project died, along with Keoken and everything we were doing in the company. In August 2019 I
2884That's unfortunate.
2885There were some bright people in Bitprim.
2886John Marks
2887J. K Bezoz UnaBoomer 2.0
2888I just want to bang my head against a fricken wall, people I trust vouch for Amaury but his actions don't seem to make me willin
2889Amaury is awesome. Hes a great dev. A lot of us love him. But he has his flaws, and he overplayed his hand this time
2890CNC
2891if copy code from core is great, i guess lots of dev would be great.
2892
2893Jonathan#100 ☯️
2894Joe Fintec
2895jiang wanted to surpress the debate that's worse than proposing shit
2896what, no, he didn't?
2897Andy S joined the group
2898
2899Eric
2900CNC
2901if copy code from core is great, i guess lots of dev would be great.
2902lol
2903Mikotus
2904Joe Fintec
2905if bch fails it it doesn't deserve to live on as bitcoin anyways
2906If bch fails, bitcoin fails. It will no longer exist.
2907
2908Jonathan#100 ☯️
2909The list of "BUSINESSES, INFRASTRUCTURE, PROJECTS & INSTITUTIONS" is interesting, but I'm missing a social/community aspect. There's a set of meetups around the world - what do the meetup organizers feel about this?
2910
2911emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
2912Don't worry! The list will expand and contract arbitrarily!  :(
2913Or maybe just expand monotonically more likely.
2914
2915Kanat Amren
2916Hello Kanat! Sorry for the late reply!
2917
2918Yes, it does look like there's gonna be a split with BCH.
2919The team will keep a very close eye on the developments with ABC and BU, but for now we don't have any additional updates.
2920
2921We usually don't actively participate in issues like this and wait for it to be resolved so we can understand what resulting chain is stable
2922From kraken
2923John Marks
2924Peter Rizun
2925But BSV went down even more. I don't think we can attribute the fall in price to the dev tax. I might agree if BCH had fallen
2926Well now bch has fallen the most vs all other top 10 coins in last 24h. Not conclusive evidence, but probably not random
2927
2928Pauladmin
2929emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
2930Don't worry! The list will expand and contract arbitrarily! :(
2931What do you mean?
2932Kanat Amren
2933Hello Kanat! Sorry for the late reply! Yes, it does look like there's gonna be a split with BCH. The team will keep a very clos
2934Thanks for this info.
2935
2936emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
2937I mean the initial members of the list doesn’t change the eventual outcome
2938
2939Pauladmin
2940Ah you mean people could retract?
2941
2942emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
2943No. I'm saying that any corporation or whitelist system should be expected to be entirely compromised within a short period of time. How long, I can't say. But quickly. That will lead to arbitrary changes to the whitelist. Who knows if it will be bigger or smaller - whatever serves the new government's interest.
2944
2945im_uname#100:lemon:
2946next week on the EOS constitution
2947
2948emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
2949im_uname#100:lemon:
2950next week on the EOS constitution
2951:point_up_2:
2952uname is my communication compression algorithm
2953
2954J. K Bezoz UnaBoomer 2.0
2955im_uname#100:lemon:
2956next week on the EOS constitution
2957ooof
2958
2959Pauladmin
2960emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
2961No. I'm saying that any corporation or whitelist system should be expected to be entirely compromised within a short period of t
2962Sorry. I'm stupid and thought you were talking about the list on reddit. Makes complete sense now.
2963Fernando
2964Gal Buki (torusJKL)
2965That's unfortunate. There were some bright people in Bitprim.
2966Thanks
2967John Marks
2968Amaury is awesome. Hes a great dev. A lot of us love him. But he has his flaws, and he overplayed his hand this time
2969No, he is not. He is an average programmer. His code is ugly.
2970
2971J. K Bezoz UnaBoomer 2.0
2972Fernando
2973No, he is not. He is an average programmer. His code is ugly.
2974maybe, but I do believe he is committed to bch, and he hasn't gone away to do something that pays better, and good people vouch for him, he just seems "tone deaf" to me in how he handles his responsibilities towards the steps needed to receive the necessary funding. Overall,  I would rather we not split, I would rather he and his team receive the funds needed to continue doing code maintenance and necessary development its just HOW to do it that is the most difficult part.
2975Fernando
2976That is true
2977Andrew
2978It's easy to be "committed" when you are in control.  His real commitment has not been tested.  Except right now.  And this is showing me his commitment it to the preservation of his own control above essential properties of this new money.
2979
2980J. K Bezoz UnaBoomer 2.0
2981forcing through a tax/fee is not the best way imho, not providing a budget that can be examined is a mistake, if he is not cooperating with efforts to move forward with better avenues of obtaining voluntary funding, that is a mistake. I believe that if there was a transparent budget, showing the amount needed by different developer groups, giving the community a breakdown of what funds are needed, would put the appropriate pressure on the community to do their part, if that doesn't work THEN discuss nuclear forced fee options
2982Andrew
2983It's easy to be "committed" when you are in control. His real commitment has not been tested. Except right now. And this is s
2984it can seem that way
2985It does appear to me like he is acting in congruence to the self proclaimed title that he has given himself of dictator, it is harder to judge the benevolent part though
2986Fernando
2987Andrew
2988It's easy to be "committed" when you are in control. His real commitment has not been tested. Except right now. And this is s
2989Also true!
2990
2991Joe Fintec
2992[Photo]
2993total psy-op
2994Fernando
2995
2996Joe Fintec
2997Photo
2998do you have the link to that?
2999
3000Kanat Amren
3001Kanat AmrenFeb 17, 2020 6:01:58 AM
3002Got it, https://github.com/gmaxwell/bitcoin-abc/commit/c7750047486240f68559c87e98f5d70b8ba3e911
3003GitHub
3004Revert "Implement miner funding features" · gmaxwell/bitcoin-abc@c775004
3005This reverts commit b46180893ed61fdc13fa5f95a5a7292c003e1a57.
3006
3007Amaury Séchet requested that I post this. It is completely untested
3008and may not even c...
3009
3010Joe Fintec
3011Fernando
3012do you have the link to that?
3013https://twitter.com/BitcoinMemeHub/status/1229376491978358784
3014Bitcoin Meme Hub :underage:
3015Greg Maxwell takes out BCH miner tax from Bcash code base and shares code on Github for anyone to use - BUT Roger clearly does not appreciate his help ????
3016[Photo]
3017is a btc marximalist meme ct
3018
3019dagur#216:maple_leaf:
3020lol, IMO the jokes om GMaxwell for being tricked by Amaury to do work on his code base
3021
3022Gal Buki (torusJKL)
3023I don't think Amaury asked him to do this.
3024GMaxwell is trolling.
3025
3026Pauladmin
3027This is list is honestly jawdropping
3028
3029https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/f4qgry/lets_have_a_show_of_hands_who_supports_the_ifp/
3030
3031reddit
3032Let's have a show of hands - Who supports the IFP (dev-tax)?
3033Or, more importantly, who is against it? It seems to me that almost the entire community is against this major change but it would be good if this...
3034Pickle Brick
3035List needs mining pools. Really the only thing that matters now they are headed down that path....
3036I see bitcoin.com and SBI
3037did i miss any others?
3038
3039im_uname#100:lemon:
3040miners talk with blocks, not lists.
3041
3042Mike Komaransky
3043https://twitter.com/MarkLundeberg/status/1229443952450781184
3044Twitter
3045Mark Lundeberg
3046Regarding the Bitcoin Cash Infrastructure Funding Plan, I am certain now that it should be scrapped immediately.
3047Fernando
3048great
3049
3050Jonathan#100 ☯️
3051There is a limited number of people who have successfully merged changes to the protocol. Mark is one of them, it's very interesting to see him take a clear stand.
3052
3053Kanat Amren
3054Pickle Brick
3055List needs mining pools. Really the only thing that matters now they are headed down that path....
3056Anyone here know huobi mining pool managers?
3057
3058emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
3059https://twitter.com/flipstartercash/status/1229444353954897920
3060Twitter
3061flipstartercash
3062郑重介绍Flipstarter https://t.co/4X2MNuaU3a
3063
3064Pauladmin
3065https://read.cash/@jonald_fyookball/latest-thoughts-on-infrastructure-mining-plan-681269b7
3066
3067Jonald now distancing himself and removing all culpability in this.
3068
3069read.cash
3070Latest Thoughts On Infrastructure Mining Plan
3071“Wow, this is not just controversial, but downright unpopular.”   That was my reaction this past week, upon reading the social media comments concerni...
3072
3073Kanat Amren
3074ELI5 BU narrative, Why BU can't be alternative to ABC?
3075Fernando
3076Paul
3077https://read.cash/@jonald_fyookball/latest-thoughts-on-infrastructure-mining-plan-681269b7 Jonald now distancing himself and re
3078:cat: always fall on their feet.
3079
3080Alexander Levinadmin
3081Paul
3082https://read.cash/@jonald_fyookball/latest-thoughts-on-infrastructure-mining-plan-681269b7 Jonald now distancing himself and re
3083wow
3084nice
3085forking abc and having another lead developer take over is a decent move
3086thomas vandengoden
3087Short term we need a good client that can be used for mining. ABC is good for this. Its mostly Core code which is well reviewed and is simply in production for a long time.
3088
3089Medium term we can, in my opinion as a long time developer, keep using this client. Even with very minimal maintenance. The code is good enough and will keep running just fine on computers for the next couple of years. Barring really unexpected things, this is a job that most people with some experience can do in their spare time.
3090At the same time we need to work on replacement infrastructure. The ABC client is a dead-end. It won't scale up without very significant amount of work. Work that has already happened elsewhere.
3091
3092So that infrastructure needs to be tested and put in production, which will take time. While the network runs on the ABC client. Probably the latest released one without the hack.
3093
3094emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
3095@joshmgreen Do you have a view on how the spec (+ implementation independent test vectors?) fits into the path forward?
3096Andrew
3097straw man proposal:  Trigger a notax fork by changing the forkid based on the exact BIP9 voting bits used to trigger the IFP
3098https://bitco.in/forum/threads/buip143-refuse-the-coinbase-tax.25512/#post-104316
3099
3100Bitcoin Forum
3101BUIP143: Refuse the Coinbase Tax
3102BUIP143: Refuse the coinbase tax
3103Submitted by: Andrew Stone
3104Date: 2020/01/27
3105
3106In this BUIP I am asking you to make the most important decision in the...
3107its possible to keep BCH together in this case — if the IFP does not activate the fork does not activate.
3108If the IFP activates, I personally don't see a hash war happening.
3109It will be a self-fulfilling prophecy — the BIP9 vote showed there was at some moment anyway a majority of hash for the IFP, so who will risk getting orphaned later?
3110
3111im_uname#100:lemon:
3112not really, there are some interesting dynamics at play between mining and economic nodes here, and it depends heavily on uptake of a non-conforming client. there's a reason BIP9 itself requires 95% instead of 66%.
3113I'll write something after such a client is out.
3114Andrew
3115sure, but unfortunately there is no dynamics without 2 choices
3116its possible for a minority of the economic power (a majority of miners) to force a change into the majority of economic actors if no other option is provided.  (But other options — ledgers — do exist.  This is how BCH truly dies if the majority economic power moves away)
3117If we have the majority of the economic power (and it sure seems that way in the western media anyway) the tax fork loses a lot of value very quickly and may be abandoned.
3118We all wanted BCH to be a dev "community", but the reality of the last few years is politics of force.
3119luwey joined the group
3120Bryan Wade
3121Something that people should really be worried about, is that since this is a soft fork, they could just start doing it at any time, without even an "activation".
3122
3123Joe Fintec
3124Paul
3125https://read.cash/@jonald_fyookball/latest-thoughts-on-infrastructure-mining-plan-681269b7 Jonald now distancing himself and re
3126damage control
3127total defeat https://twitter.com/micropresident/status/1229430467654373376
3128Twitter
3129Shammah
3130The “NOTAX” movement brought to you by the same ~10 people who brought you: * NoSchnorr * NoDSV * NoCTOR * NoOpCodes * NoDAA * NoCashAddr And many other great movements!
3131[Photo]
3132we see a lot of turn coats now that a vast supermajority has formed opposition to the abc coup d'etat
3133it's typical most people are undecided and follow 51% in crypto as in meat space
3134
3135Joe Fintec
3136[Photo]
3137
3138カルム ? Calem Smith ?:rainbow: ミカ | Zerozed | x0z.io
3139Feels like 2015 again don't it.. https://twitter.com/CalemJohnSmith/status/1229489141739450368?s=19
3140Twitter
3141カルム ? Calem Smith ?:rainbow:?????? | ミカ
3142“More fundamentally, it is a crisis that reflects deep philosophical differences in how people view the world: either as one that should be ruled by a...
3143Sorry but i just saw this and felt the absolute need to share it anywhere...
3144
3145
3146Peter Rizun
3147Bryan Wade
3148Something that people should really be worried about, is that since this is a soft fork, they could just start doing it at any t
3149This would be miners forming a cartel and doing it at the pool level.  It is unfortunate that mining is centralized to the point where that might be possible, but still the cartel would be unstable and would collapse eventually.  
3150
3151The much bigger problem is modifying the protocol that most nodes (e.g., exchanges and business run) to enforce the will of the cartel.  Now cartel members can't defect and the cartel's competition is rendered powerless.  This is a very stable situation and that miner/dev cartel would likely not collapse.
3152.
3153Changing topics slightly, there is overwhelming opposition for the IFP.  But it's not yet dead.  The facts that (a) ABC is the defacto "reference client" that most miners and exchanges run, and (b) ABC has a poison pill forcing node operators to upgrade before May 15th, gives them tremendous power.  It means that if everyone just does what they normally do and download and run the new release of ABC, the dev tax will likely be activated.  If Amaury doesn't give in, he still has a good chance of ramming this through.
3154For example, did you know that even if you run ABC with the dev tax turned off (`-enableminerfund=0`) that the client still votes for the dev tax?  The flag doesn't do what most people probably expect it to do.
3155
3156カルム ? Calem Smith ?:rainbow: ミカ | Zerozed | x0z.io
3157Christ...
3158
3159Alexander Levinadmin
3160Peter Rizun
3161For example, did you know that even if you run ABC with the dev tax turned off (`-enableminerfund=0`) that the client still vote
3162its a good thing there's a known public pool out there that will run BU
3163miners against tax can just switch over and mine there
3164any pool that wants to give this option to users can do the same, to compete for that hashrate
3165@Klakurka does coin.dance have a place that provides a hashrate-weighted node count pie chart?
3166
3167Jonathan#100 ☯️
3168Peter Rizun
3169For example, did you know that even if you run ABC with the dev tax turned off (`-enableminerfund=0`) that the client still vote
3170could you clarify this? I'd like more details.
3171
3172im_uname#100:lemon:
3173Bryan Wade
3174Something that people should really be worried about, is that since this is a soft fork, they could just start doing it at any t
3175doing it at some arbitrary time amounts to a hashwar that wrecks everything, which miners are not incentivized to do.
3176Andrea Suisani
3177Jonathan#100 ☯️
3178could you clarify this? I'd like more details.
3179Well pretty simple, every block produced by ABC  0.21 will have an nversion field with the first 4 bits set to 1 (LE).
3180
3181There's no way to change that.
3182
3183So even if you run with -enableminerfund=0 you are still voting to activate IFP.
3184
3185The only thing that the above flag set to 0 will do is to not enforce the miner funding scheme 
3186
3187Is accepting block which don't pay the 5% tax
3188
3189im_uname#100:lemon:
3190Andrea Suisani
3191Well pretty simple, every block produced by ABC 0.21 will have an nversion field with the first 4 bits set to 1 (LE). There's
3192TL;DR if you set it to 0, you still vote for the tax but do so dishonestly, since you have no intention to follow through.
3193
3194David Klakurka
3195Alexander Levin
3196@Klakurka does coin.dance have a place that provides a hashrate-weighted node count pie chart?
3197It's not really something that can be done practically unfortunately
3198
3199Gal Buki (torusJKL)
3200im_uname#100:lemon:
3201TL;DR if you set it to 0, you still vote for the tax but do so dishonestly, since you have no intention to follow through.
3202So because nobody knows how many miners don't enforce it you have to assume everyone who votes also enforces the tax.
3203
3204Jonathan#100 ☯️
3205Andrea Suisani
3206Well pretty simple, every block produced by ABC 0.21 will have an nversion field with the first 4 bits set to 1 (LE). There's
3207this needs more attention. I bet more than 95% of the community believes the miners can easily turn this off by just setting -enableminerfund=0.
3208
3209im_uname#100:lemon:
3210Gal Buki (torusJKL)
3211So because nobody knows how many miners don't enforce it you have to assume everyone who votes also enforces the tax.
3212there's actually a good reason the original BIP9 requires 95% instead of 66%. Unlike hardforks, if you botch a softfork it's a huge mess/
3213Andrea Suisani
3214Jonathan#100 ☯️
3215this needs more attention. I bet more than 95% of the community believes the miners can easily turn this off by just setting -en
3216I spent the day studying the code and say to anyone I know what the situation currently is
3217im_uname#100:lemon:
3218there's actually a good reason the original BIP9 requires 95% instead of 66%. Unlike hardforks, if you botch a softfork it's a h
3219Agreed
3220Gal Buki (torusJKL)
3221So because nobody knows how many miners don't enforce it you have to assume everyone who votes also enforces the tax.
3222The fact is that in Core land if you want to vote against a softfork activation you just don't upgrade your client and you call it a day.
3223
3224Unfortunately in this case since they mixed the IFP activation with May 2020 net upgrade and due to ABC poison pill.... The only way to not activate the IFP and using a compatible client for may is to modify th code of ABC or use a client that implements the may 2020 upgrade modulo the IFP activation
3225
3226Jonathan#100 ☯️
3227Andrea Suisani
3228I spent the day studying the code and say to anyone I know what the situation currently is
3229what would it take to code up and submit a PR to change the implementation such that disabling enforcement also disables signaling?
3230or to submit a "off by default" PR?
3231
3232Joe Fintec
3233Andrea Suisani
3234The fact is that in Core land if you want to vote against a softfork activation you just don't upgrade your client and you call
3235so much for offering people choices and more degrees of freedom
3236
3237Jonathan#100 ☯️
3238I would like to see such made in good faith - if rejected that means there's clear evidence of intent.
3239right now one could simply argue that it was a misstake.
3240Andrea Suisani
3241Jonathan#100 ☯️
3242what would it take to code up and submit a PR to change the implementation such that disabling enforcement also disables signali
3243Feature freeze timeline already passed, there's no way you can get a change like that merged
3244
3245In fact another problem of this last minute mv by ABC is that it has been done on the last possible moment to get code merged by their own standards.... That means that there has never been a possibility to amend the code
3246
3247Alexander Levinadmin
3248all this means is that the ecosystem must abandon abc
3249
3250Jonathan#100 ☯️
3251Andrea Suisani
3252Feature freeze timeline already passed, there's no way you can get a change like that merged In fact another problem of this la
3253right. I was aware of that issue, but I'd honestly rather have them reject it on the merit that "it's after feature freeze". Then people can see that they value the feature freeze restriction higher than they do the change in question.
3254
3255Alexander Levinadmin
3256you can't play by their rules anymore
3257Andrea Suisani
3258Jonathan#100 ☯️
3259right. I was aware of that issue, but I'd honestly rather have them reject it on the merit that "it's after feature freeze". The
3260I can submit a PR but frankly after seeing how things went in the past I'm sure they will find any possible reasons to justify a rejection
3261
3262Joe Fintec
3263Jonathan#100 ☯️
3264right now one could simply argue that it was a misstake.
3265if it were a mistake there would be a statement of sorts or a correction
3266Andrea Suisani
3267Jonathan#100 ☯️
3268right now one could simply argue that it was a misstake.
3269They did the same for DAA
3270
3271Jonathan#100 ☯️
3272Joe Fintec
3273if it were a mistake there would be a statement of sorts or a correction
3274only if it was a misstake that "they found out about". right now it could just be a misstake they are unaware of. like an honest misstake. having a PR accepted/rejected will let us know more.
3275Andrea Suisani
3276Jonathan#100 ☯️
3277only if it was a misstake that "they found out about". right now it could just be a misstake they are unaware of. like an honest
3278IMHO there's no mistake. They ported BIP9 machinery from Core.
3279
3280In core the only way to vote against a softfork is to avoid upgrade your client.
3281
3282There's no way to use the new client and voting against activation.
3283
3284This is way there's no way to vote against
3285In this case you are forced to upgrade due to the poison pill. If you won't upgrade you'll be forked off no matter what
3286I think that the easiest way to asses if it was an error would be to ask Amaury
3287
3288Joe Fintec
3289Andrea Suisani
3290I think that the easiest way to asses if it was an error would be to ask Amaury
3291that assumes honesty
3292who has to lose the most in this "game"?
3293that's who's the most afraid
3294Andrea Suisani
3295Joe Fintec
3296that assumes honesty
3297Same as creating a PR for ABC code but in the latter case you need to spend more time to actually code it
3298
3299Jonathan#100 ☯️
3300Andrea Suisani
3301Same as creating a PR for ABC code but in the latter case you need to spend more time to actually code it
3302true, but there is a difference in how those two acts will be treated. asking can be viewed as in good faith just as well as viewed as an intellectual trap / social setup in which any response can be used against him. The PR would show (proof-of-work-style) that the one "asking" is willing to expend work as a sign of good faith. It's not terribly important, just something that I feel would be a nice-to-have at the moment.
3303
3304dagur#216:maple_leaf:
3305Did you guys know that fee is considered part of the block reward in ABC's miner fund code?
3306
3307Every time you use BCH, they're getting 1/20th of your fee.
3308Andrea Suisani
3309Jonathan#100 ☯️
3310true, but there is a difference in how those two acts will be treated. asking can be viewed as in good faith just as well as vie
3311I see your point
3312dagur#216:maple_leaf:
3313Did you guys know that fee is considered part of the block reward in ABC's miner fund code? Every time you use BCH, they're get
3314Yes :grin: they will get 5% of the txs fee included in the block
3315
3316Pauladmin
3317dagur#216:maple_leaf:
3318Did you guys know that fee is considered part of the block reward in ABC's miner fund code? Every time you use BCH, they're get
3319Wow.
3320
3321Alexander Levinadmin
3322haha
3323
3324Pauladmin
3325It would really help if one/some of you developers write a post making light some of this, because it seems to be even worse than people think and people think it is terrible.
3326Andrea Suisani
3327Paul
3328It would really help if one/some of you developers write a post making light some of this, because it seems to be even worse tha
3329@dagurval is working on it
3330
3331Pauladmin
3332Good to hear.
3333
3334Alexander Levinadmin
3335so to increase fees, amaury is incentivized to also reduce the block size limit
3336could become smaller than 1mb lol
3337
3338dagur#216:maple_leaf:
3339that's not how you maximize fees :-)
3340
3341Alexander Levinadmin
3342thats how you think you do if you're a baguette-eating socialist
3343normal people know that you increase fees by increasing utility
3344
3345Pauladmin
3346dagur#216:maple_leaf:
3347that's not how you maximize fees :-)
3348Depends on the timescale I guess.
3349Andrew
3350This flag is either dishonest or incompetent.  I'm not surprised.
3351If you set the flag, does that mean your node will vote for the IFP but then produce or build upon rejected blocks? (If it activates)
3352
3353Joe Fintec
3354Andrea Suisani
3355Same as creating a PR for ABC code but in the latter case you need to spend more time to actually code it
3356as in every interaction and relationship when others misbehave you show them the boundaries...this time is now
3357Andrew
3358Like an expensive punishment to miners for trying to vote against.
3359
3360Joe Fintec
3361Andrew
3362This flag is either dishonest or incompetent. I'm not surprised.
3363doesn't matter at this point it's shit
3364Andrea Suisani
3365Andrew
3366This flag is either dishonest or incompetent. I'm not surprised.
3367Neither of those imho
3368
3369It makes it easier to add the feature without breaking existing regression tests
3370Andrew
3371Hmm... its undocumented?
3372checksum0 joined the group
3373
3374Alexander Levinadmin
3375hello friend
3376
3377checksum0
3378Peter Rizun
3379For example, did you know that even if you run ABC with the dev tax turned off (`-enableminerfund=0`) that the client still vote
3380Definitely doesn't do what I expect, and I would have settled that flag at bitcoin.com if I had not known
3381
3382Eric
3383checksum0
3384joined the group
3385bonjur
3386
3387checksum0
3388Bonjour it's spelled
3389
3390Alexander Levinadmin
3391bonjour, zhentelmen
3392
3393Eric
3394checksum0
3395Bonjour it's spelled
3396hola
3397
3398Alexander Levinadmin
3399? XVII Stage II is in full effect.
3400Anthony Banks joined the group
3401Jingles joined the group
3402
3403Anthony Banks
3404Bonne nuit
3405
3406checksum0
3407So what happen with the HF of the BIP9 vote fails?
3408
3409Eric
3410Anthony Banks
3411Bonne nuit
3412jesus! this is a family friendly chat
3413
3414checksum0
3415Anthony Banks
3416Bonne nuit
3417Bonsoir
3418
3419Eric
3420checksum0
3421So what happen with the HF of the BIP9 vote fails?
3422you take your 15th/s and i take my 11th/s and we fork
3423
3424checksum0
3425Well... I mean we both have way more hashrate than that?
3426Lol
3427
3428Eric
3429checksum0
3430Well... I mean we both have way more hashrate than that?
3431no, your s9 my ebit
3432
3433Alexander Levinadmin
3434we ask jihan to instruct state police to "disinfect" his competitors' farms
3435
3436Eric
3437lol
3438
3439Andy Chen
3440Jiang told me that phe won’t vote tax yes yesterday
3441
3442Alexander Levinadmin
3443has he made that public?
3444
3445checksum0
3446That he won't vote for the IFP?
3447
3448Andy Chen
3449But I really think that Amaury is hard to deal, we are still figuring out the long term situation
3450
3451Alexander Levinadmin
3452even if he doesnt vote, the code is in there already
3453
3454Andy Chen
3455Yes U are right
3456
3457Alexander Levinadmin
3458someone else can vote
3459
3460Andy Chen
3461He is in discussion with Jihan
3462
3463checksum0
3464Jiang can vote for it under another name too :joy:
3465
3466Joe Fintec
3467Andy Chen
3468But I really think that Amaury is hard to deal, we are still figuring out the long term situation
3469easy to deal with that
3470
3471Alexander Levinadmin
3472@andychenw do you know if/when jiang will post publicly that he will not vote for IFP?
3473
3474checksum0
3475Alexander Levin
3476@andychenw do you know if/when jiang will post publicly that he will not vote for IFP?
3477He can't do that without losing face arguably
3478
3479Andy Chen
3480He published in Weibo( China twitter) that if most of the community against the IFP and vote NO to IFP, that’s fine.
3481
3482Joe Fintec
3483Andy Chen
3484But I really think that Amaury is hard to deal, we are still figuring out the long term situation
3485“Build your opponent a golden bridge to retreat across.”
3486
3487checksum0
3488I dunno, I'd take that as a final middle finger to everyone after the ton of red candles all that discussion created
3489
3490Drogoteca
3491Joe Fintec
3492“Build your opponent a golden bridge to retreat across.”
3493Al enemigo, puente de plata (as said in spanish)
3494
3495Alexander Levinadmin
3496@checksum0 when is your fund rebuying bch
3497lol
3498
3499checksum0
3500We will see what happens
3501IMO the discussion were more damageable than the actual tax
3502Having its main supporter retreat would really be like the final insult to injury
3503
3504Andy Chen
3505checksum0
3506We will see what happens
3507Do U think that Amaury will leave BCH after the proposal failed?
3508
3509checksum0
3510Andy Chen
3511Do U think that Amaury will leave BCH after the proposal failed?
3512Unfortunately, no.
3513
3514Alexander Levinadmin
3515i think people have short memory and if amaury reverts the code, they wont care enough to say "no thanks"
3516
3517Andy Chen
3518Then that’s fine
3519
3520Alexander Levinadmin
3521in my experience the people who threaten to leave are very deeply entrenched
3522
3523Andy Chen
3524We against tax, not specific developer
3525
3526Joe Fintec
3527Andy Chen
3528We against tax, not specific developer
3529in this case it seems identical
3530
3531Andy Chen
3532Next time Amaury want tax, we still vote NO!
3533
3534checksum0
3535Amaury has already made plenty of damages, I envy the Chinese community to not have to deal with him every day
3536He gotta go
3537
3538Andy Chen
3539Then who is the replacement
3540For leading BCH devs
3541
3542Joe Fintec
3543dictator no.2
3544
3545checksum0
3546We will know in a few days I guess
3547
3548Pauladmin
3549Why does there need to be a lead dev of BCH?
3550
3551checksum0
3552Anything but French Man is a win in my book
3553
3554Eric
3555Paul
3556Why does there need to be a lead dev of BCH?
3557:pray:
3558
3559Andy Chen
3560Anyone who replacement, I want the code developed in github.
3561
3562Pauladmin
3563The whole point of BCH was to get away from a centralised dev group.
3564
3565Joe Fintec
3566Andy Chen
3567Anyone who replacement, I want the code developed in github.
3568why? isn't that microsoft's domain ?
3569
3570checksum0
3571Andy Chen
3572Anyone who replacement, I want the code developed in github.
3573Indeed
3574
3575im_uname#100:lemon:
3576Andy Chen
3577Anyone who replacement, I want the code developed in github.
3578gitlab works too
3579
3580Joe Fintec
3581let's see: after 2.5 years how much closer are we to big blocks actually?
3582
3583Pauladmin
3584Basically not at all as far as I have seen.
3585It doesn't even seem to be the focus any more.
3586
3587Andy Chen
3588Most programmer get used to work on github instead of the god damn Facebook tools
3589
3590Eric
3591guys eda/daa getting gamed. instead of fixing it just give dev who made it 5%
3592
3593Joe Fintec
3594we should be at GB territory now if we ever want to reach TB before the cental bankers come up with their shitcoin and ban the rest
3595
3596Andy Chen
3597GitHub, gitlab both is OK
3598
3599Joe Fintec
3600Paul
3601It doesn't even seem to be the focus any more.
3602after teh 32mb increase it was not a topic and 32mb is lower than the original 33mb even almost a decade ago
3603
3604Alexander Levinadmin
3605for me it was never about big blocks for the sake of big blocks. its called a blocksize LIMIT
3606i wanted the limit to be increased
3607if not enough people are using it, that is not the fault of the size of the block
3608
3609Andy Chen
3610Yep
3611Is BU going to lead the BCH devs?
3612
3613Eric
3614Andy Chen
3615Is BU going to lead the BCH devs?
3616plenty of equally (or more) talented devs in bch. BU, but also Verde guys, Josh E, etc
3617
3618Pauladmin
3619Alexander Levin
3620if not enough people are using it, that is not the fault of the size of the block
3621I agree with that completely, and IMO it is actually the biggest issue facing BCH. But I don't think people are willing to recognise that problem just yet.
3622
3623Alexander Levinadmin
3624i'm waiting for a bull run + tether collapse + exchange with tether trading pair collapse + people trying to exchange run on BTC blockchain, a confluence of events that will force BCH to pick up the slack for transactions
3625
3626Joe Fintec
36272 main top tasks imho for bch development: 1) scale tx throughput 2) scale mass adoption
3628did i miss anything?
3629
3630Alexander Levinadmin
3631if people can't transact on BTC (either FOMO or FUD), they'll buy BCH and transact with that
3632
3633Pauladmin
3634Alexander Levin
3635i'm waiting for a bull run + tether collapse + exchange with tether trading pair collapse + people trying to exchange run on BTC
3636There is a reason tether is the most used coin.
3637
3638Joe Fintec
3639Alexander Levin
3640if people can't transact on BTC (either FOMO or FUD), they'll buy BCH and transact with that
3641or they buy ltc, or eth, or xrp
3642
3643Alexander Levinadmin
3644it is much more likely that they will buy BCH
3645
3646Joe Fintec
3647Alexander Levin
3648it is much more likely that they will buy BCH
3649why?
3650
3651Alexander Levinadmin
3652i can even tell you why
3653
3654Joe Fintec
3655btc holders constantly see anti-bch bashing
3656
3657Alexander Levinadmin
3658of all alts, the most-accepted currency is BCH, in online shops
3659ideologies will fly out the window when people  have to make decisions to save money
3660
3661Joe Fintec
3662most tx are not user to merchant in crypto
3663afaik
3664
3665Alexander Levinadmin
3666correct, but profit taking is definitely crypto -> not crypto
3667the easiest way to take profit on coins in cold storage, if exchanges are down, is to buy gold
3668bitpay has put themselves in a great position by onboarding nearly all online gold shops
3669bitpay has "BTC/BCH accepted" in every checkout
3670i suspect that people who want to take profit, who have their assets on exchanges, will trade to bch
3671
3672checksum0
3673Alexander Levin
3674if not enough people are using it, that is not the fault of the size of the block
3675This.
3676Irrelevant to want to raise the current limit
3677
3678Joe Fintec
3679Alexander Levin
3680i suspect that people who want to take profit, who have their assets on exchanges, will trade to bch
3681that's not my observation in general
3682
3683Alexander Levinadmin
3684well @joefintech , you're wrong about pretty much 95% of the stuff you say, so i'm not surprised that your observations are faulty, too
3685
3686Joe Fintec
3687Alexander Levin
3688well @joefintech , you're wrong about pretty much 95% of the stuff you say, so i'm not surprised that your observations are faul
3689i wonder how you know what i observe
3690
3691Alexander Levinadmin
3692[Photo]
3693
3694Joe Fintec
3695
3696Alexander Levin
3697Photo
3698how many people have you onboarded and kept track of their portfolio and crypto usage?
3699Mikotus
3700Alexander Levin
3701i'm waiting for a bull run + tether collapse + exchange with tether trading pair collapse + people trying to exchange run on BTC
3702Why would tether collapse? Isn't that almost like waiting for the banks to collapse?
3703
3704Alexander Levinadmin
3705banks collapsing is not outside of the realm of possibilities, either
3706but to answer your question, its because they've basically admitted that they hold financial contracts instead of actual dollars, to back USDT. Tether is basically a digital liberty dollar at this point, and its only a matter of time before all involved are in jail
3707Mikotus
3708Alexander Levin
3709but to answer your question, its because they've basically admitted that they hold financial contracts instead of actual dollars
3710Yes, that was actually my point. If they would go to jail, they would alredy be in jail.
3711
3712Alexander Levinadmin
3713there are plenty of people that will be in jail that are currently not in jail
3714Mikotus
3715USDT is the fractional reserve currency of the banks in crypto. That is why they are allowed to operate.
3716
3717Joe Fintec
3718Mikotus
3719USDT is the fractional reserve currency of the banks in crypto. That is why they are allowed to operate.
3720the reason it's around is that they can pump any shitcoin to compete with bitcoin if necessary or short or add price volatility
3721Mikotus
3722This also... in other words to manipulate the market.
3723
3724Alexander Levinadmin
3725Mikotus
3726USDT is the fractional reserve currency of the banks in crypto. That is why they are allowed to operate.
3727i don't think so. they are indicted by NYAG.however, if the indictment is dropped with prejudice, i would believe what you said
3728Mikotus
3729Alexander Levin
3730i don't think so. they are indicted by NYAG.however, if the indictment is dropped with prejudice, i would believe what you said
3731With any entity doing the same it would have been shut down immediately... I mean if no endorsement from the powers at be.
3732
3733Alexander Levinadmin
3734i just need a slightly higher burden of proof satisfied than you've accepted
3735not saying what you are saying can never be true
3736Mikotus
3737The whole court case is just to make sure no competitors without endorsement enter.
3738
3739Alexander Levinadmin
3740this is what's called an unfalsifiable position
3741when you start guessing 4d chess moves, i have to stop arguing
3742Alexander Levin invited Jt
3743
3744Alexander Levinadmin
3745@Blockparty_sh i did not see you in this channel
3746Mikotus
3747Well kind of
3748
3749Alexander Levinadmin
3750added
3751
3752Joe Fintec
3753Alexander Levin
3754invited Jt
3755what a relieve
3756
3757Jt
3758Hello
3759#NoTax
3760
3761Alexander Levinadmin
3762@Blockparty_sh this channel is for notax discussion. per sticky, any supporters of IFP get banned on sight
3763
3764Jt
3765IFP is really awesome
3766
3767Alexander Levinadmin
3768lol
3769[? Sticker]
3770
3771Joe Fintec
3772[Photo]
3773so in love he doesn't give a shit for a year
3774Warboat joined the group
3775
3776checksum0
3777A project he loves? I told me he couldn't stand Amaury
3778Mikotus
3779checksum0
3780A project he loves? I told me he couldn't stand Amaury
3781I think he refers to BCH... not Amaury
3782
3783Spartan
3784checksum0
3785A project he loves? I told me he couldn't stand Amaury
3786he seems to only appear on the scene, when a fork is imminent
3787
3788Joe Fintec
3789[Photo]
3790
3791checksum0
3792Mikotus
3793I think he refers to BCH... not Amaury
3794Well... It is to fund Amaury, not BCH
3795If it was to fund BCH there wouldn't be a whitelist full of his buddies
3796
3797Justin Bons
3798I do not agree with Amaurys actions, but I do not think he is a bad guy, it is our fault as a whole to have put him under such perverted incentives. He even warned us against the danger of capture for years due to a lack of funding and I entirely agree with him on that. Amoury is just being that force of capture now after being in that position for many years. I think he means well and that we would even apriciate him within a better funded and more distributed implementation ecosystem
3799It is easy to paint our opponents as devils and ourselves as saints. We are still human beings and we are all still Bitcoiners
3800
3801Andy Chen
3802I am OK with anyone, but just no tax.
3803I vote no for tax, not for anyone.
3804
3805Joe Fintec
3806Justin Bons
3807I do not agree with Amaurys actions, but I do not think he is a bad guy, it is our fault as a whole to have put him under such p
3808nuff of this Oneitis
3809
3810Justin Bons
3811Andy Chen
3812I vote no for tax, not for anyone.
3813Agreed, better to stick to the policies not the people
3814
3815checksum0
3816I disagree, Amaury painted himself on this corner with his behavior, to top it off he made sure the hashwar would happen, botched a hard fork due to a bug in his client, etc.
3817
3818ABC gotta go.
3819
3820Andy Chen
3821If ABC go, that’s fine
3822If not, it’s fine too
3823
3824Justin Bons
3825I would be happy with ABC withdrawing the proposal and this being a lesson in the need for improving implementation decentralization
3826
3827checksum0
3828He also has no care for anyone opinion, and force his solution through to the detriment of BCH, Point in case: he overruled someone else algorithm for the DAA in favor of his own that is terrible. The other person algo wouldn't have been exploitable like his.
3829
3830Andy Chen
3831I am here to against tax, after that, I am OK, I care about the protocol instead of the devs.
3832
3833checksum0
3834The problem is that he can't work with anyone that isn't a yes man. That will not change even if he withdraws from it.
3835
3836Andy Chen
3837Personal, I don’t like home tbh.
3838
3839Joe Fintec
3840checksum0
3841The problem is that he can't work with anyone that isn't a yes man. That will not change even if he withdraws from it.
3842well maybe after a fundamental change of mindset and personal self-improvement
3843
3844Warboat
3845I'm not against the tax, I'm against proof-of-ABC
3846
3847Andy Chen
3848*him
3849
3850checksum0
3851JFC he can't realize no one cares for his logo after 2 years, so retarded only bitcoincash.org use it.
3852
3853That's how petty he is.
3854
3855Andy Chen
3856But I really think that the if the domain bitcoincash.org is owned by Amaury is quite dangerous.
3857Anyone knows who owned the domain right now?
3858I heard that Jihan buy it and transfer it to Amaury...
3859
3860Justin Bons
3861checksum0
3862He also has no care for anyone opinion, and force his solution through to the detriment of BCH, Point in case: he overruled some
3863I entirely agree, he should not be in the leadership position he is in now, he currently does not have the correct skillset or personality for that position, severely lacking in diplomacy and sensitivity. ABC needs to either become a minor implementation or there needs to be a change of leadership there instead, maybe even both.
3864I suspect Mark Lunderburg would be a great lead maintainer?
3865
3866Warboat
3867Just let him go ahead with the fork
3868You tax, we bankrupt you
3869
3870Justin Bons
3871Warboat
3872Just let him go ahead with the fork
3873I have to ask, who are you? I am sorry that I do not recognize this psuedonim
3874What you are saying is very divisive, forgive me for being suspicous of agent provactuers
3875
3876checksum0
3877Andy Chen
3878But I really think that the if the domain bitcoincash.org is owned by Amaury is quite dangerous.
3879It is
3880
3881Joe Fintec
3882Justin Bons
3883What you are saying is very divisive, forgive me for being suspicous of agent provactuers
3884:see_no_evil:
3885
3886Warboat
3887Justin Bons
3888I have to ask, who are you? I am sorry that I do not recognize this psuedonim
3889I am most pragmatic coiner
3890
3891checksum0
3892Justin Bons
3893I entirely agree, he should not be in the leadership position he is in now, he currently does not have the correct skillset or p
3894I'd welcome a change of leadership
3895
3896Justin Bons
3897Can we all agree that we would prefer NOT splitting the chain!
3898checksum0
3899I'd welcome a change of leadership
3900Yes, this might actually be a very practical solution
3901
3902Warboat
3903Justin Bons
3904Can we all agree that we would prefer NOT splitting the chain!
3905Where would that go with shitlord calling the shots
3906
3907Justin Bons
3908Mark is a very cool and reasonable guy, kind of the opposite of Amoury lol
3909
3910Joe Fintec
3911Justin Bons
3912Can we all agree that we would prefer NOT splitting the chain!
3913the other side has more to lose - so if they bring up that threat my reply is BRING IT ON - it's an empty threat
3914
3915Andy Chen
3916Warboat
3917Just let him go ahead with the fork
3918It’s not that easy, he may fork with the BCH ticker by the bitconcash.org
3919
3920checksum0
3921[Photo]
3922He's a BSV dude, @PWasensteiner can you get rid of him
3923
3924Warboat
3925Hey, I am not all in BSV guy. I do have reservations about all of BSV
3926
3927Joe Fintec
3928:joy:
3929
3930Andy Chen
3931If abc fork, most likely our no tax chain is will be bitcoin cash classic
3932
3933Warboat
3934Most of what they are trying to achieve seems good
3935I did argue with CSW directly and got banned
3936The topic was about TTOR
3937
3938Justin Bons
3939Andy Chen
3940If abc fork, most likely our no tax chain is will be bitcoin cash classic
3941We have major western companies on our side, we can lobby exchanges to keep the BCH ticker
3942
3943Andy Chen
3944I hope so too
3945But, it’s not that easy
3946
3947Warboat
3948You cannot fight for the ticker. You have to fight for the hearts of the miners
3949
3950Justin Bons
3951@PWasensteiner please apply some moderation here, so we can cut down on noise and agent provocatuers
3952
3953Warboat
3954The never-ending fight for ticker won't end
3955
3956Justin Bons
3957Warboat
3958You cannot fight for the ticker. You have to fight for the hearts of the miners
3959I disagree, exchanges decide on tickers, not miners
3960
3961Andy Chen
3962If abc get the ticker, we lose a lot
3963
3964Justin Bons
3965Yeah it's stupid, but markets do respond to those tickers :(
3966
3967Joe Fintec
3968we have like 80% of the community behind us now - that's how it feels anyways
3969
3970Andy Chen
3971So in my opinion, better no fork, change leader in a long term
3972
3973Warboat
3974If ABC formed the PR to get the ticker in the first place, how are you realistically going to fight against that?
3975
3976Andy Chen
3977If Jihan still own the domain, then fuck Amaury just let him go
3978
3979Justin Bons
3980Andy Chen
3981So in my opinion, better no fork, change leader in a long term
3982A change of leadership over the short term would go a long way to mend this divide, the more I think about, the more I realize that Marc has the perfect demeanor for it
3983
3984Warboat
3985Just run a contentious fork and win by miners and there is no ticker war
3986
3987Justin Bons
3988He even reminds me a bit of Gavin, those where some of the golden years ;)
3989
3990checksum0
3991Justin Bons
3992@PWasensteiner please apply some moderation here, so we can cut down on noise and agent provocatuers
3993Actually he might not be so provocateur as all bsv dude have been all over that tax
3994
3995Justin Bons
3996Warboat
3997Just run a contentious fork and win by miners and there is no ticker war
3998Now that is exactly what a BSV agent provocatuer would say...
3999
4000checksum0
4001Justin Bons
4002A change of leadership over the short term would go a long way to mend this divide, the more I think about, the more I realize t
4003Bch would go so well with Mark
4004
4005Warboat
4006Justin Bons
4007Now that is exactly what a BSV agent provocatuer would say...
4008How else do you wish to win it? Proof of Propaganda?
4009
4010emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
4011Andy Chen
4012It’s not that easy, he may fork with the BCH ticker by the bitconcash.org
4013This + abc inertia for miners. When an alternative abc client appears (it will), proactive miners have to take the lead and convince *everyone* to use that client + point to new domain. Exchanges will not do it for you. It is the only way i see to avoid a split.
4014
4015Justin Bons
4016Warboat
4017How else do you wish to win it? Proof of Propaganda?
4018Again a BSV response...
4019
4020Joe Fintec
4021jihan wu wouldnt allow a split over this either way is my humble opinion
4022
4023Andy Chen
4024Bitcoincash.com is owned by Julian(bitprim)
4025
4026Joe Fintec
4027[Photo]
4028somebody trying hard to be original
4029CNC
4030Joe Fintec
4031jihan wu wouldnt allow a split over this either way is my humble opinion
4032Don't forget miner tax is Jihan's idea
4033
4034Warboat
4035Justin Bons
4036Again a BSV response...
4037That is what you are suggesting. An overthrow of the dev dictator
4038
4039emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
4040Joe Fintec
4041jihan wu wouldnt allow a split over this either way is my humble opinion
4042Amaury already pulled the trigger. Jihan has to play amaury’s game now
4043
4044Justin Bons
4045checksum0
4046Bch would go so well with Mark
4047Yes! We should serously consider proposing this, he has the right demeanor!
4048
4049Warboat
4050Electing new kings is not the Bitcoin way
4051
4052checksum0
4053Andy Chen
4054Bitcoincash.com is owned by Julian(bitprim)
4055Who is best bud with Amaury lol
4056
4057emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
4058Lead dev of one implementation is not a king
4059And this spark has convinced nodes pretty decisively that mining is high priority
4060
4061Collin #SaveTheOrphans :man::woman::girl::boy:
4062I'll let Mark be my king
4063CNC
4064Jiang is just Jihan's puppet
4065
4066Joe Fintec
4067Collin #SaveTheOrphans :man::woman::girl::boy:
4068I'll let Mark be my king
4069no kings in bitcoin please we already have enough drama queens
4070
4071checksum0
4072emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
4073Amaury already pulled the trigger. Jihan has to play amaury’s game now
4074That's not what happening as I hear. Why would Jihan have to roll with it, he never put his name on it or said anything about it
4075
4076Justin Bons
4077Warboat
4078Electing new kings is not the Bitcoin way
4079There is a clear divide between BSV and BCH philosophy, you are very clearly in the BSV camp ideologically speaking atleast
4080
4081emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
4082checksum0
4083That's not what happening as I hear. Why would Jihan have to roll with it, he never put his name on it or said anything about it
4084Because all the miners are using abc.
4085
4086checksum0
4087emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
4088Because all the miners are using abc.
4089Not anymore
4090
4091emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
4092So jihan et al will have to get their hands dirty to move over to the alternate node.
4093
4094Warboat
4095Justin Bons
4096There is a clear divide between BSV and BCH philosophy, you are very clearly in the BSV camp ideologically speaking atleast
4097Justin, why are you so intent on labeling. Are you such a label guy that you are hung up on it rather than the merit of the discussion. It's like you are trying to use your influence to shitlord this space
4098
4099emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
4100checksum0
4101Not anymore
4102Yeah i believe it will happen. Is it already happening?
4103
4104checksum0
4105There's a pool working on it right now anyway
4106
4107emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
4108Warboat
4109Justin, why are you so intent on labeling. Are you such a label guy that you are hung up on it rather than the merit of the disc
4110Justin makes constructive and useful comments. You stir shit.
4111
4112Warboat
4113Warboat
4114Justin, why are you so intent on labeling. Are you such a label guy that you are hung up on it rather than the merit of the disc
4115The fact that you suggest censoring me is already antithesis to the cause
4116
4117emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
4118checksum0
4119There's a pool working on it right now anyway
4120Excellent
4121
4122Justin Bons
4123Collin #SaveTheOrphans :man::woman::girl::boy:
4124I'll let Mark be my king
4125Yes! we are starting to build a new consensus: Mark shall be nominated as the new benevolent dictator of ABC! :)
4126
4127Andy Chen
4128It’s just no-tax group, don’t care about the bsv
4129
4130checksum0
4131Can we elect Mark at the position of Satoshi?
4132
4133Collin #SaveTheOrphans :man::woman::girl::boy:
4134Justin Bons
4135Yes! we are starting to build a new consensus: Mark shall be nominated as the new benevolent dictator of ABC! :)
4136
4137
4138emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
4139Justin Bons
4140Yes! we are starting to build a new consensus: Mark shall be nominated as the new benevolent dictator of ABC! :)
4141Don’t push it too much. Excellent alternative node maintainer is fine. Mark doesn’t need extra pressure and games right now.
4142
4143Justin Bons
4144checksum0
4145Can we elect Mark at the position of Satoshi?
4146At which point we might as well crown him CEO & emperor of Bitcoin as well. We give him all the titles! ;)
4147emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
4148Don’t push it too much. Excellent alternative node maintainer is fine. Mark doesn’t need extra pressure and games right now.
4149Fair, he might not want the job either;)
4150
4151Warboat
4152I suggest that we don't just elect centralisation. What we do is make a deal with the shitlord that we build in codebase reward so that the codebase that finds the block gets the "tax" instead of being controlled by minister of finance devs.
4153This way, ABC gets the head start
4154They happy
4155And then anyone who devs better miner code will get rewarded by merit of miners choosing to use better performaning code
4156
4157emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
4158Warboat
4159I suggest that we don't just elect centralisation. What we do is make a deal with the shitlord that we build in codebase reward
4160This is a bad idea and 100% gameable.
4161
4162Warboat
4163Meritocracy
4164Why
4165
4166emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
4167This room is for no tax. We are not discussing variations of a tax mechanism. Please stop
4168
4169checksum0
4170That would actually be a potable idea
4171
4172emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
4173Warboat
4174Why
4175I change a few lines in the code and voila the client was made by *me* so it goes to me.
4176
4177Warboat
4178You cannot have a $0 incentive scheme to dev BCH or anyone with more than $0thrown at devs would game it away
4179
4180Justin Bons
4181Please stop Warboat, you are not helping this discussion, I mean I am getting less subtle over time, but you are just not getting the hint
4182
4183Warboat
4184emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
4185I change a few lines in the code and voila the client was made by *me* so it goes to me.
4186It needs a way to authenticate the code and lockin change
4187
4188emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
4189Warboat
4190It needs a way to authenticate the code and lockin change
4191Maybe.... a whitelist?
4192
4193Warboat
4194This is the only way forward for Bitcoin development
4195
4196Spartan
4197A lot of SV folks left BCH due to Amaury's dictatorship, many still hold BCH, give them a chance, they might be your best allies
4198
4199emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
4200Stop. You can dm me ideas first if you want as a check for whether it makes sense in this room or not.
4201
4202Spartan
4203[Photo]
4204Say no to BTax
4205
4206Warboat
4207Once we have multiple feasible implementations then we can finally lay to rest the centralised dev problem
4208
4209emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
4210Spartan
4211A lot of SV folks left BCH due to Amaury's dictatorship, many still hold BCH, give them a chance, they might be your best allies
4212That’s fine. This isn’t a bsv conversion place though. This is a place for finding how to bypass the tax.
4213
4214Warboat
4215Until then, the centralisation of repo will always be an Achilles heel
4216We need incentivised repo wars
4217
4218checksum0
4219Spartan
4220A lot of SV folks left BCH due to Amaury's dictatorship, many still hold BCH, give them a chance, they might be your best allies
4221True
4222
4223emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
4224
4225Spartan
4226Photo
4227It’s not left or right. It’s “don’t touch the block reward”
4228
4229Justin Bons
4230Spartan
4231A lot of SV folks left BCH due to Amaury's dictatorship, many still hold BCH, give them a chance, they might be your best allies
4232This is a fair point and much apriciated, more unification post BSV would be wonderfull, in this specific case warboat is going to far off topic, even when repeatedly being asked to stop....
4233
4234checksum0
4235The only bsvers I respect did actually
4236
4237Spartan
42381. Popularize the world BTax and ticker symbol BTX 2. Get the Btax twitter handle and r/btax subreddits. Bombard social media with #BTax . Expose David Allens's role in ABC
4239emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
4240It’s not left or right. It’s “don’t touch the block reward”
4241taxation and big government is a left issue
4242
4243Warboat
4244Justin Bons
4245This is a fair point and much apriciated, more unification post BSV would be wonderfull, in this specific case warboat is going
4246You cannot solve dictatorship by replacing it with another dictatorship
4247Seriously
4248Your suggestions are crap Justin
4249
4250Justin Bons
4251Warboat
4252Your suggestions are crap Justin
4253Have you even read my proposals?
4254
4255Warboat
4256You want to steal the incumbency
4257
4258Spartan
4259A good BCH fork that gets rid of Amaury and refocuses on scaling, intead of perpetual six monthly science project updates, will attracts SV folks back to BCH
4260
4261Warboat
4262At least agree with the devil to compete for the incumbency in some meritocracy way
4263
4264Justin Bons
4265Read my work before you criticize it please:
4266
4267Spartan
4268if Craig fails to prove his case in courts, where do you think SV folks will go
4269Mikotus
4270Warboat
4271Your suggestions are crap Justin
4272Yeah I am leaving now because of this guy allowed to be here, considering all the other bans.
4273
4274Justin Bons
4275https://read.cash/@JustinBons/alternative-infrastructure-funding-plan-proposal-de89193f
4276
4277https://read.cash/@JustinBons/response-to-bch-miner-donation-plan-bb86049e
4278Alternative Infrastructure Funding Plan Proposal
4279This Article was originally written on January 25th and posted on Medium. All of my future work will be simultaneously cross-posted to read.cash from...
4280[Photo]
4281
4282Warboat
4283Justin, what I suggest is more objective than your proposal as it is in consensus and cannot be gamed extrinsicly
4284What you are suggesting is a government
4285
4286Justin Bons
4287Dont feed the trolls, I have asked you to stop and yet you continue, it is rude, I will stop engaging with you on here now, you are very welcome to debate me on Twitter, I will never ban you there ;)
4288This is not the right platform for that debate, please respect that
4289
4290Warboat
4291Tell me what is wrong with my the idea of codebase reward vs your concept of a government of finance IMF style
4292Why are you scared to debate here Justin?
4293There only 75 members
4294If I take you on Twitter, you gonna be exposed to many more
4295
4296Justin Bons
4297This is the wrong place for that debate and therefore disrespectful for you to continue, it is hard enough for me to read everything here without this noise, please bring it on, on Twitter, I will happily debate you there. This is the last time I will respond to you now for real this time, please do not respond to me here
4298
4299Warboat
4300Are you the ruling party here?
4301Is this proof of Justin Bons
4302I am suggesting a valid solution to the problem that even Amaury might accept to an extent
4303
4304Justin Bons
4305emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
4306This + abc inertia for miners. When an alternative abc client appears (it will), proactive miners have to take the lead and conv
4307You are correct in this, it takes a concerted effort which involves communities and bussiness pressuring miners before approaching exchanges with the claim of dominance
4308Under this scenario considering the support already gained the non IFP side is in a better position to win this, as long as we are organized and think strategically. I do think we can avoid a split alltogether by convincing ABC to back down, which is a much much better scenario
4309
4310Warboat
4311https://twitter.com/warboat1/status/1229597728990097409?s=09
4312Twitter
4313Warboat
4314@Justin_Bons https://t.co/HEgdaJyZIH Your proposal is too subjective and convoluted. I suggest a codebase reward coded in consensus rules and then let...
4315
4316Drogoteca
4317I think the best option is an accident in the shower for Amaury.
4318Slippery when wet and so on.... and end the fucking problem.
4319
4320emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
4321Warboat
4322Tell me what is wrong with my the idea of codebase reward vs your concept of a government of finance IMF style
4323I told you already why
4324
4325Warboat
4326It  needs a way to authenticate the IP in the code and then miners simply cannot copy source and claim it as their work
4327IP as in intellectual property and not internet packet
4328
4329emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
4330Yes and who approves the list of valid clients. It is a whitelist as i said which again is injection of a government.
4331
4332Warboat
4333We can work out a way to authenticate that
4334
4335emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
4336And still off topic here.
4337We are not debating justin’s proposals. We are trying to find a way forward that bypasses the block reward fuckery. The scope is quite clear.
4338
4339Warboat
4340I don't think most of us is totally against a dev tax just against the centralisation of it by ABC
4341
4342emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
4343Warboat
4344I don't think most of us is totally against a dev tax just against the centralisation of it by ABC
4345Fine. That is outside the scope of this converaation. This isn’t anti amaury or recovering bsv welcome committee. Please read the sticky.
4346I will be happy if people who left bch because they hate amaury come back but i think that is a tangent unless you actively are working to talk to miners and exchanges and businesses or whatever to effect a better outcome. Bitching about amaury doesn’t help i think.
4347
4348Mike Komaransky
4349Warboat
4350I don't think most of us is totally against a dev tax just against the centralisation of it by ABC
4351The name of this chat is NOTAX, bucko
4352
4353Joe Fintec
4354[Photo]
4355Kevin Gibson joined the group
4356
4357Alexander Levinadmin
4358@Warboat can you please make it clear for us, are you for some variation of an IFP which is funded by BCH's coinbase reward?
4359
4360カルム ? Calem Smith ?:rainbow: ミカ | Zerozed | x0z.io
4361Warboat
4362I don't think most of us is totally against a dev tax just against the centralisation of it by ABC
4363It doesn't matter who is at the centre of it so to speak.
4364
4365Warboat
4366Alexander Levin
4367@Warboat can you please make it clear for us, are you for some variation of an IFP which is funded by BCH's coinbase reward?
4368Yes, I think this is a solution that is needed by all 3 chains, BTC, BCH, and BSV as they all.face the same problems of repo centralisation gamed not by merit but by clout.
4369
4370Kanat Amren
4371
4372カルム ? Calem Smith ?:rainbow: ミカ | Zerozed | x0z.io
4373GIF
4374+
4375
4376カルム ? Calem Smith ?:rainbow: ミカ | Zerozed | x0z.io
4377I just dont have the words right niw but it could ABC or Roger. I dont care as it breaks the basic fundamentals.
4378
4379I dont care what anyone says, crypto without its principles is just another paypal or western union.
4380
4381Alexander Levinadmin
4382Warboat
4383Yes, I think this is a solution that is needed by all 3 chains, BTC, BCH, and BSV as they all.face the same problems of repo cen
4384@PWasensteiner can we ban?
4385this guy has been a distraction for the entire day
4386
4387Warboat
4388The reason  you got this issue now was because this issue was never addressed at any level
4389So to avoid it is temporary as it will rear its head again and again
4390
4391Kanat Amren
4392checksum0
4393He can't do that without losing face arguably
4394He can postpone to another date November 20 may be.
4395Andy Chen
4396I vote no for tax, not for anyone.
4397What about independent chineese miners? What are they think?
4398
4399Joe Fintec
4400Kanat Amren
4401He can postpone to another date November 20 may be.
4402November 20th 2140 yes
4403
4404checksum0
4405https://twitter.com/notChecksum0/status/1229625265686491137
4406Twitter
4407Checky Undercover
4408Fun fact: the total network hashrate for all GPU miners in 2013 now fits on a single shelf in my mine. That's what they call miniaturisation right?
4409Just sayin
4410
4411Joe Fintec
4412[Photo]
4413Andrew
4414https://read.cash/@EmilOldenburg/the-devil-is-in-the-details-4b33193a
4415The devil is in the details
4416In the western world, we say that “The devil is in the details”. And when it comes to the Infrastructure Funding Proposal, the details are super impo...
4417[Photo]
4418"Jonald just wrote a post where he admitted that he was involved in writing the proposal. I can confirm that is the case. Jonald wrote the draft and was very active in driving this. I'm glad he admits his involvement now, since it looks very bad to write a proposal, then pretend like he wasn't involved and starts pushing for it. When it later turns out he will be one of the beneficiaries of the IFP, it makes it look even worse."
4419Lol, huge surprise.
4420
4421Joe Fintec
4422:scream:
4423Andrew
4424How does it go in the pretty dictator playbook?  Oh yeah:  1. Take control.  2. Purge anyone who dares to disagree. 3.  Siphon away value.
4425zveda
4426i guess you've all seen the new article by jonald
4427
4428Joe Fintec
4429
4430Joe Fintec
4431Photo
4432[Photo]
4433zveda
4434lol what
4435
4436Alexander Levinadmin
4437lol
4438silicon valley vulture
4439
4440James Howells
4441
4442Joe Fintec
4443Photo
4444Unbelievable.
4445zveda
4446i think he is trolling
4447surely
4448french sense of humour
4449
4450Joe Fintec
4451zveda
4452french sense of humour
4453his sense of humour would be to mean it and everyone else would think he can't be serious
4454zveda
4455Joe Fintec
4456his sense of humour would be to mean it and everyone else would think he can't be serious
4457uh huh
4458
4459J. K Bezoz UnaBoomer 2.0
4460checksum0
4461Just sayin
4462do you do any merge mining? like i thought something like elastos can be merged with sha-256 mining
4463
4464checksum0
4465J. K Bezoz UnaBoomer 2.0
4466do you do any merge mining? like i thought something like elastos can be merged with sha-256 mining
4467Well I mean I pool mine, so I do whatever the pool do :)
4468
4469J. K Bezoz UnaBoomer 2.0
4470right, how many merge mining coins are there? I know that Jihan invested in Elastos
4471
4472checksum0
4473A fuck ton is merge minable honestly
4474It's not really worth it
4475
4476J. K Bezoz UnaBoomer 2.0
4477ok, think there might be room for one more?
4478
4479checksum0
4480A few tenth of a percent, if you bother selling them
4481J. K Bezoz UnaBoomer 2.0
4482ok, think there might be room for one more?
4483Of course, it all depends on if the coin is worth it to even merge mine though
4484The most worthwhile is namecoin, so the bar isn't super high
4485
4486J. K Bezoz UnaBoomer 2.0
4487i was kicking around some ideas with Jonald about a privacy coin for merged mining, one that would accept a dev tax and would fund dev's and also pay miners
4488keeps tax away from bch, shuffles fund raising off to a merged mined product using privacy technology, bch doesn't get touched, miners and devs split the new rewards, value is found in its privacy function
4489merge mining can improve revenue and fund development, maybe
4490
4491checksum0
4492I'm not personally interested in any coin starting from a new genesis coin
4493I fear this applies to a lot of people, it's not like you were gonna fund BCH with that realistically
4494
4495カルム ? Calem Smith ?:rainbow: ミカ | Zerozed | x0z.io
4496its a bad idea for one chain to be reliant on another
4497
4498checksum0
4499Well, depending if both chains are intertwined
4500
4501カルム ? Calem Smith ?:rainbow: ミカ | Zerozed | x0z.io
4502no idea exactly what yous are talking about but launching a new network is usually not a good way to solve a problem in crypto
4503what do you mean by that sorry?
4504
4505checksum0
4506And most merge mined coins rely on an algo, not a coin
4507
4508J. K Bezoz UnaBoomer 2.0
4509yeah
4510
4511カルム ? Calem Smith ?:rainbow: ミカ | Zerozed | x0z.io
4512Oh were talkin9g about merge mining
4513
4514J. K Bezoz UnaBoomer 2.0
4515yes
4516
4517カルム ? Calem Smith ?:rainbow: ミカ | Zerozed | x0z.io
4518heh yeah.. i remember that debate with feathercoin...
4519Some heavily pushed for merge mining for em but it was rejected by the devs, well, pete and ghostlander specificaly
4520
4521J. K Bezoz UnaBoomer 2.0
4522because of the increase in workload?
4523
4524カルム ? Calem Smith ?:rainbow: ミカ | Zerozed | x0z.io
4525i think its just ethics and fundimentals..
4526Borg coin
4527xD
4528I dunno. Maybe i don't understand merge mining well enough but i saw it as like a last resort for dying chains that just wont go away
4529like, propping up a market the way the gov does..
4530the same way ABC doesn't want to have to compete
4531ethics. principals etc. I got into crypto back in the day for some very specific reasons. i wont sway on these things.
4532
4533J. K Bezoz UnaBoomer 2.0
4534i am betting on building value by offering an in house privacy option as the value service
4535
4536カルム ? Calem Smith ?:rainbow: ミカ | Zerozed | x0z.io
4537We already have coin mixing dont we?
4538
4539J. K Bezoz UnaBoomer 2.0
4540of a merge mined chain tied to bch
4541
4542カルム ? Calem Smith ?:rainbow: ミカ | Zerozed | x0z.io
4543also.. in-house...?
4544er...
4545k
4546
4547J. K Bezoz UnaBoomer 2.0
4548yeah, but one bonus is that you would not have to count on people using the mixing function, it would always be "on"
4549i think
4550
4551カルム ? Calem Smith ?:rainbow: ミカ | Zerozed | x0z.io
4552Well.. that doesnt really make this tax problem go away does it
4553what we need is as many pools as possible who will support the notax movement
4554and maybe someone really smart can figure out a way to use the same checkpointing trick we did to fend of BSV
4555you know what....
4556
4557J. K Bezoz UnaBoomer 2.0
4558well, I was thinking that if this nerged mined coin could have a fee/tax built in, and it would give bch tax relief, lol ??‍♂️
4559
4560カルム ? Calem Smith ?:rainbow: ミカ | Zerozed | x0z.io
4561knowing everything i know now about amaury... i might go back and watch that live stream from spice again...
4562laters..
4563
4564J. K Bezoz UnaBoomer 2.0
4565gnight
4566
4567Gal Buki (torusJKL)
4568カルム ? Calem Smith ?:rainbow: ミカ | Zerozed | x0z.io
4569and maybe someone really smart can figure out a way to use the same checkpointing trick we did to fend of BSV
4570The checkpoint trick doesn't work because this is a soft-fork.
4571Every new notax block is a potential split point.
4572Even if there were already 100s of them.
4573
4574カルム ? Calem Smith ?:rainbow: ミカ | Zerozed | x0z.io
4575bleh
4576oh shit.
4577"Every new notax block is a potential split point" - well that i understand..
4578can't half tell im not a miner..
4579Hey i know this would detract from the conversation, and in no way do i want to entertain this much more than a thought, but I called craig out months before he announced his planned attack. I called him out on his political ideologies.. Thats when he started attacking anarchists.
4580Just putting it out there, but im starting to see no difference between amaury and craig
4581it just feels like BSV's attempt to kill off BCH failed and due his court shit he just slipped away cause they failed,.
4582around that same time, i bet the dev tax was been discussed.
4583Anyways. Conspiricy theories solve nothing right now, and like i said this all detracts from the conversation needed but yeah. i feel this is only place i can say that and get it off my chest
4584
4585Gal Buki (torusJKL)
4586カルム ? Calem Smith ?:rainbow: ミカ | Zerozed | x0z.io
4587around that same time, i bet the dev tax was been discussed.
4588Yes, the miner donations were a discussion before the BCH/BSV split.
4589But I don't know the details and how it was different from the current one.
4590
4591カルム ? Calem Smith ?:rainbow: ミカ | Zerozed | x0z.io
4592so that long ago huh.
4593divide an conquer
4594
4595Gal Buki (torusJKL)
4596カルム ? Calem Smith ?:rainbow: ミカ | Zerozed | x0z.io
4597Just putting it out there, but im starting to see no difference between amaury and craig
4598At least nChain did a hard fork and people could chose at a single point in time which chain to follow.
4599
4600カルム ? Calem Smith ?:rainbow: ミカ | Zerozed | x0z.io
4601i always had the feeling that BSV was always intended to fail and its only purpose was stir up drama and chaos and just detract from what needed doing.
4602So how and what is the best way to deal with this situation?
4603forgive me, im just using this as an oportunity to educate myself.. ive had no input outside of ideology in the debate cause well.. Its the only thing im "good" at
4604How does one combat a soft-fork?
4605Andrea Suisani
4606Andy Chen
4607Anyone knows who owned the domain right now?
4608Amaury
4609
4610Gal Buki (torusJKL)
4611カルム ? Calem Smith ?:rainbow: ミカ | Zerozed | x0z.io
4612How does one combat a soft-fork?
4613You don't activate it in the first place.
4614
4615カルム ? Calem Smith ?:rainbow: ミカ | Zerozed | x0z.io
4616just don't update?
4617
4618Gal Buki (torusJKL)
4619No, you can't keep the old ABC version.
4620It will fork itself off the network on May 15th.
4621
4622カルム ? Calem Smith ?:rainbow: ミカ | Zerozed | x0z.io
4623hey... if the chain could fork on any tax block, does that mean it can fork on every tax block.. ad infinitum?
4624Right well. BU it is then XD
4625Andrea Suisani
4626Andy Chen
4627If Jihan still own the domain, then fuck Amaury just let him go
4628Amaury bought it originally and IMHO still owns it
4629
4630カルム ? Calem Smith ?:rainbow: ミカ | Zerozed | x0z.io
4631been trying to decide which codebase to borrow for something for a while now.. ABC is now broken. Makes that decision easy
4632
4633checksum0
4634Andrea Suisani
4635Amaury bought it originally and IMHO still owns it
4636He still does and make it clear in the past he plans to fuck it up if he gets rekt
4637Andrea Suisani
4638checksum0
4639He still does and make it clear in the past he plans to fuck it up if he gets rekt
4640For why is worth I bought bitcoincash.it and I could transfer it to the community if needed
4641
4642checksum0
4643I think the domain ownership thing for crypto project is a very very unsettled issue
4644Cobra is actually a good owner, considering everything.
4645
4646Pauladmin
4647I banned @spartan @warboat and @dragoteca. The first two seemed to be here to stir up drama, and dragoteca's comments were absolutely abhorrent and should have no place anywhere in the BCH community.
4648
4649Eric
4650Paul
4651I banned @spartan @warboat and @dragoteca. The first two seemed to be here to stir up drama, and dragoteca's comments were absol
4652+++
4653shit
4654
4655Pauladmin
4656I apologise for the slow response. It seems we're at a point of needing a few more mods. Any volunteers? (I must know and trust you). Send me a PM.
4657
4658J. K Bezoz UnaBoomer 2.0
4659Paul
4660I banned @spartan @warboat and @dragoteca. The first two seemed to be here to stir up drama, and dragoteca's comments were absol
4661thanks
4662
4663Alexander Levinadmin
4664Paul
4665I banned @spartan @warboat and @dragoteca. The first two seemed to be here to stir up drama, and dragoteca's comments were absol
4666ty
4667
4668Pauladmin
4669I had another simple idea for voluntary funding where the incentives align. IMO funding is mostly an awareness issue and it seems to be what the proponents and recipients of the dev-tax are forgeting (or possibly ignoring).
4670It takes work to make people aware that X needs funds, and it takes even more work convinced people that someone else should provide those funds. Just expecting people to end up paying you is just naive.
4671There are a few initiatives going on right now and I think all of these will increase the chance that funding to the projects that deserve it will increase.
4672
4673カルム ? Calem Smith ?:rainbow: ミカ | Zerozed | x0z.io
4674i still don't understand why theres a push to set up structured funding of any sort
4675is the community in agreeance that its needed but done right?
4676I appreciate this uber detailed reply i see brewing. bbs.. nvm... didnt realise you were simply finishing what you were saying @PWasensteiner
4677
4678Pauladmin
4679Another way to increase community funding could be to build an electron cash plugin that checks the price of BCH and every time the price reaches a certain threshold (e.g. 50% increase in price) a transaction proposal should be created with x% (e.g. 5%) of the funds in that wallet to be sent to the projects the user wants to send them to. Then each time a payment like this is made the threshold reference is reset.
4680
4681E.g. I put 10BCH in this special wallet now and the threshold reference starts now with it. I set my preferences so that 20% of my donation goes to the BU address, 20% to BCHD, 20% to Bitcoin Verde, 20% to Flipstarter and 20% to EatBCH. The price of BCH goes to $600 and so the plugin creates a transaction that donates 0.1BCH ($60) to each of these projects. Once the price of BCH reaches $900 then the plugin creates a transaction donates 0.095BCH ($85.5) to each of these projects.
4682I this way everyone wins and it is completely voluntary. Obviously this is complementary to other methods and would not provide any funding when the price is not increasing, but I would be happy to donate this way and I'm sure many others would to.
4683
4684カルム ? Calem Smith ?:rainbow: ミカ | Zerozed | x0z.io
4685https://twitter.com/CalemJohnSmith/status/1229729403434717186
4686Twitter
4687カルム ? Calem Smith ?:rainbow:?????? | ミカ
4688This sort of independent rogue fund raising seems far more in the spirit of Bitcoin compared to a tax. https://t.co/ivx7QgaUQU
4689If companies/individuals like particulair projects, they can raise funds from their own customers/users/fans
4690Fund raising should be kept anarchic as opposed to, well, anything else.. (I see the tax more like Authoritarian, minarchic or technocratic in nature... which scarily reminds me of craig...)
4691
4692emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
4693:+1: Injecting government into a permissionless coin FTL.
4694Paul
4695Another way to increase community funding could be to build an electron cash plugin that checks the price of BCH and every time
4696On this same line of thought is a number-go-up contract I wrote. Super simple. You donate. But it has a time limit (or not). It only pays out when the price gets to a certain point :D So you can donate $1M today! Just have to set the price high enough.
4697
4698カルム ? Calem Smith ?:rainbow: ミカ | Zerozed | x0z.io
4699emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
4700On this same line of thought is a number-go-up contract I wrote. Super simple. You donate. But it has a time limit (or not). It
4701You thinking of creating an array of tools for anyone to use to raise funds for whoever and however?
4702
4703emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
4704Yes. We are creating flipstarter to do one way. I will keep adding techniques to it but they may not all be integrated.
4705
4706カルム ? Calem Smith ?:rainbow: ミカ | Zerozed | x0z.io
4707crypto patreons ftw
4708
4709emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
4710Even just regular patreons ftw to be honest at this point :D
4711although I wonder if they allow crypto projects? I know a bunch of platforms don't like haviing crypto-related stuff on them.
4712
4713Pauladmin
4714emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
4715On this same line of thought is a number-go-up contract I wrote. Super simple. You donate. But it has a time limit (or not). It
4716I'd love to know more about it. How does it work?
4717
4718emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
4719Just like I wrote it. That's all there is to it. It depends on a price oracle which is yet to be established.
4720any specific questions?
4721
4722Pauladmin
4723Does it just do a single payment?
4724
4725Alexander Levinadmin
4726it would be cool to do a donation drive in line with the release of a no-tax fork. money goes into a timelocked smart contract that that pays out to a list of wallets of devs in that “show of hands” thread. they get it because they voiced their support first
4727
4728emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
4729The simplest version yes. Could make it as complicated as you can fit in bch script limitations like adding mecenas or whatever.
4730
4731Alexander Levinadmin
4732the largest gains are donations collected roght before a bull run
4733if the price of the coin goes up, it becomes worth it to develop
4734if not, then its not so important
4735
4736Pauladmin
4737emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
4738The simplest version yes. Could make it as complicated as you can fit in bch script limitations like adding mecenas or whatever.
4739Could you for example set up a cascading set of contracts where when one is executed it then sends some of the BCH to the next?
4740
4741Alexander Levinadmin
4742i’m willing to contribute 100 bch to this drive
4743
4744Pauladmin
4745A lot of people would. I think it would be sensible to coordinate it with the Flipstarter launch + any other voluntary funding methods.
4746
4747Alexander Levinadmin
4748theymos is the most salient example of donations collected before a bull run
4749
4750Pauladmin
4751I think the theymos scenario is a good one to bring up.
4752
4753Jonathan#100 ☯️
4754Paul
4755Could you for example set up a cascading set of contracts where when one is executed it then sends some of the BCH to the next?
4756yes, or you could directly fund a set of contracts with different parameters from the start, which might be less complex to set up.
4757
4758Pauladmin
4759It's a good reasons to have regular funding efforts and well-built and maintained funding platforms.
4760
4761Jonathan#100 ☯️
4762note though that the contract by @emergentreasons relies on an external oracle to report the price.
4763
4764Alexander Levinadmin
4765theymos’s donation drive would have been fine if money did not go to one guy
4766
4767Jonathan#100 ☯️
4768there's work underway to find such parties, and to build the tooling for such oracles, but it's not ready yet.
4769
4770Pauladmin
4771Jonathan#100 ☯️
4772yes, or you could directly fund a set of contracts with different parameters from the start, which might be less complex to set
4773Nice. So in theory you could make an electron cash plugin that once you add some funds to a wallet, will generate a set of cascading donation contracts ('number-go-up' contract as emergentreasons put it) that will activate when the price reaches a certain point (as determined by an oracle).
4774
4775Alexander Levinadmin
4776basically i’m saying its a good idea to take advantage of 10x price/adoption movements for the purposes of paying developers. a small amount now would go far later
4777
4778emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
4779Paul
4780Could you for example set up a cascading set of contracts where when one is executed it then sends some of the BCH to the next?
4781You can set up all kinds of things. Can you expand on what you mean? What would be the conditions and purpose of cascading?
4782
4783Pauladmin
4784To achieve this.
4785
4786Pauladmin
4787PaulFeb 18, 2020 3:21:22 AM
4788Another way to increase community funding could be to build an electron cash plugin that checks the price of BCH and every time the price reaches a certain threshold (e.g. 50% increase in price) a transaction proposal should be created with x% (e.g. 5%) of the funds in that wallet to be sent to the projects the user wants to send them to. Then each time a payment like this is made the threshold reference is reset.
4789
4790E.g. I put 10BCH in this special wallet now and the threshold reference starts now with it. I set my preferences so that 20% of my donation goes to the BU address, 20% to BCHD, 20% to Bitcoin Verde, 20% to Flipstarter and 20% to EatBCH. The price of BCH goes to $600 and so the plugin creates a transaction that donates 0.1BCH ($60) to each of these projects. Once the price of BCH reaches $900 then the plugin creates a transaction donates 0.095BCH ($85.5) to each of these projects.
4791
4792Jonathan#100 ☯️
4793Paul
4794Nice. So in theory you could make an electron cash plugin that once you add some funds to a wallet, will generate a set of casca
4795yes. for an unlimited cascade effect a more built-out contract would be needed. for a limited cascade effect (like 10 times or 25 times running of the contract), making the X contracts in the plugin and funding them all in a single transaction would work.
4796
4797Pauladmin
4798The idea is to make donating as painless and simple as possible.
4799
4800emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
4801Paul
4802Another way to increase community funding could be to build an electron cash plugin that checks the price of BCH and every time
4803Sure.
4804
4805Pauladmin
4806Jonathan#100 ☯️
4807yes. for an unlimited cascade effect a more built-out contract would be needed. for a limited cascade effect (like 10 times or 2
4808It wouldn't need to be unlimited. The user can just give their preference where the threshold to stop is.
4809e.g. max $10k BCH price.
4810Would there be a way to cancel or modify such a set of contracts after they have been created? (e.g. if the person wants to change who receives what).
4811
4812emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
4813You can put that kind of condition in if you want.
4814Caveat: this all depends on development of infrastructure around smart contracts. DM me if you want to talk in more detail about it.
4815
4816Pauladmin
4817:+1:
4818Thanks for all the info on this.
4819
4820カルム ? Calem Smith ?:rainbow: ミカ | Zerozed | x0z.io
4821emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
4822Even just regular patreons ftw to be honest at this point :D
4823Sorry i had in mind crypto based versions of patreon but yeah, I can't see why crypto thought leaders shouldn't or cant be on Patreon itself.
4824Obviously its no crypto-centric so the crowd doesn't exist there... but heck, its exposure.
4825mass migration of BCH'rs... Put some real crypto pressance on their platform.. i dunno. Crypto Patreons could use these array of crowd funding tools in conjunction that are currently been worked on.
4826Fernando
4827Andrea Suisani
4828Amaury
4829Juan has bitcoincash.com at sell from last year
4830Yeah, I know, it is a .com, not the same, but....
4831
4832emergent_reasons#100:cactus:
4833It actually had a site before. Does anyone know why they took it down?
4834
4835Pauladmin
4836Is it actually for sale?
4837I offered to buy it from him multiple times.
4838Fernando
4839I will ask him
4840Maybe he wants more money than you offered... Who knows
4841
4842Alexander Levinadmin
4843cash.bitcoin.com
4844i bet we can work with roger’s team considering his opposition to ifp
4845
4846Pauladmin
4847Fernando
4848Maybe he wants more money than you offered... Who knows
4849I don't believe I offered a specific amount. This was a long time ago to be fair.
4850Kelvin Osaro joined the group
4851
4852Kanat Amren
4853what about p2pcash.org?
4854Alexander Levin invited Yann
4855Alexander Levin invited Tony
4856Fernando
4857Alexander Levin
4858cash.bitcoin.com
4859I like it
4860
4861Alexander Levinadmin
4862eventually when bitcoin cash becomes the de facto bitcoin, it can just be bitcoin.com
4863bitcoin.org will be a failed experiment for nerds. no one will care
4864
4865Kevin Gibson
4866I’ve been curious about how to associate node implementation roadmap with smart contract so when milestone implemented as BIP, address(es) get paid
4867
4868Tom Harding
4869Andy Chen
4870Is BU going to lead the BCH devs?
4871The current BU release is exactly what this group wants.  Hope for more options, but run BU now.
4872How did we get to where running a client that does NOT fork or kill itself is a radical act?
4873
4874Alexander Levinadmin
4875there are people that do not like BU for their own reasons, i have not looked deeply at that situation and cant comment
4876but, it would be a bad idea to spin BU as the non-abc if it means losing the support of people that dont like BU
4877most people just dont want to be taxed, i’m for whatever client that does not have amaury’s tax code
4878
4879Pauladmin
4880The client should just be a non-tax code base that all the clients offer a version of IMO.
4881
4882Alexander Levinadmin
4883if this plays out correctly , im thinking jiang will save face by nitpicking against a particular portion of amaury’s code and saying he did not agree
4884maybe cindy can give him that suggestion
4885
4886Pauladmin
4887@COINCindy :point_up_2:
4888
4889Alexander Levinadmin
4890how is bchgang so fucking compromised?
4891
4892Pauladmin
4893They built up an echochamber there over the last year.
4894Andrea Suisani
4895Alexander Levin
4896how is bchgang so fucking compromised?
4897BCH GANG is a group of weirdo that are attracted/fooled by Amaury's narrative
4898
4899Jonathan#100 ☯️
4900There's no need to save face in my view - I believe he acted in good faith and backtracking given the information that exist now would be a sign of strength, not something to be afraid of.
4901
4902Joe Fintec
4903Andrea Suisani
4904BCH GANG is a group of weirdo that are attracted/fooled by Amaury's narrative
4905at this point in time they should just start a grunge band: the amauries
4906Andrea Suisani
4907Joe Fintec
4908at this point in time they should just start a grunge band: the amauries
4909ahahahahhaha
4910
4911Alexander Levinadmin
4912Jonathan#100 ☯️
4913There's no need to save face in my view - I believe he acted in good faith and backtracking given the information that exist now
4914not sure this is how chinese operate
4915what we consider strength, they think is weakness
4916just like red LED on hashboards means “working”
4917
4918Eric
4919Alexander Levin
4920just like red LED on hashboards means “working”
4921working, just maybe not for you
4922
4923Joe Fintec
4924Alexander Levin
4925what we consider strength, they think is weakness
4926they only respect power and force. but when they are losing and you don't want too much bitch drama you offer them something to save face
4927“Build your opponent a golden bridge to retreat across.”
4928in sun tzu's words
4929
4930Eric
4931Joe Fintec
4932in sun tzu's words
4933i thought that was donald trump?
4934
4935Joe Fintec
4936Andrea Suisani
4937ahahahahhaha
4938is this his sister? https://twitter.com/alechavezrc/status/1229575429146775552
4939ale
4940i just went thru his likes https://t.co/roD9H5PHAw
4941[Photo]
4942sounds like it
4943
4944Kelvin Osaro
4945Alexander Levin
4946how is bchgang so fucking compromised?
4947David Allen, philip68 and mike malley made a concerted effort to capture bch forums
4948Mike malley is a known scammer from Mass.network ico
4949
4950Alexander Levinadmin
4951who is the owner of the channel and why does he let it happen
4952
4953im_uname#100:lemon:
4954@PWasensteiner please remove unhelpful yelling ^
4955
4956Alexander Levinadmin
4957@coinsmith / beijingbitcoins / is a level headed guy
4958
4959Eric
4960Kelvin Osaro
4961Mike malley is a known scammer from Mass.network ico
4962how did david allen get the fisher account?
4963
4964Alexander Levinadmin
4965im_uname#100:lemon:
4966@PWasensteiner please remove unhelpful yelling ^
4967i’m admin, can help. who is yelling?
4968
4969im_uname#100:lemon:
4970Alexander Levin
4971i’m admin, can help. who is yelling?
4972the accusing mike of being known scammer thing, i don't think it's helpful
4973but you might judge differently :P
4974
4975Alexander Levinadmin
4976i only have one mandate, to remove ifp supporters
4977
4978im_uname#100:lemon:
4979fair
4980
4981Eric
4982Alexander Levin
4983i only have one mandate, to remove ifp supporters
4984@TonyF12 said he is for IFP
4985
4986Tony
4987International Fatty Pinchers? Hell yeah
4988
4989Pauladmin
4990@kelvinosaro let's keep the "known scammer" talk to a minimum.
4991It's too BTC maximalist.
4992Andrew
4993WRT people being angry with BU, I hope that this situation is a wake up call and that many of you will re-evaluate what BU has actually stood for over the last two years rather than what the ABC fan club has said we stood for.
4994For example, we were the FIRST group to call out CSW.
4995Peter R on plagarism and me on some technical writings.
4996WRT BU leading... one of our positions has been to encourage multiple clients and BTW we got shit for our frustration while we watched devs getting purged over the years.
4997
4998Alexander Levinadmin
4999why are people angry at bu?
5000Andrew
5001Well, hearing it would be better from someone who is angry.  But: for rocking the boat, for not supporting certain ABC features, for holding BTC rather than BCH, for suggesting a strategy during the BSV split that wasn't completely polarized.
5002
5003Alexander Levinadmin
5004i want to hear it from your best objective evaluation of their complaints
5005Andrew
5006well, what do you think?  Did I miss any?
5007
5008Tom Harding
5009Also, back in 2016, some core boys found shallow zero-day bugs in BU and crashed some nodes exploiting them.  In the few hours before the bugs were fixed, they extracted maximal public relations damage (having planned to do so in advance) which succeeded in freaking out miners.
5010Andrew
5011Yes, this was the infamous "assert that doesn't work in BTC code like it does everywhere else" problem...
5012You cannot beard the lion in its own den without getting scratched
5013
5014Alexander Levinadmin
5015what was your bsv strategy
5016Andrew
5017hang on, creating wall of text :blush:
5018
5019Tom Harding
5020Don't wait for a committee to anoint BU, just try it yourself.
5021
5022James Howells
5023Amaury had his eye on BU’s pot of gold since day dot, and when he didn’t get it or his own way he formed ABC and has been hostile towards BU ever since. That’s why they’re angry at BU - they didn’t get the pot of gold, the rest is just a smear campaign.
5024
5025Tom Harding
5026James Howells
5027Amaury had his eye on BU’s pot of gold since day dot, and when he didn’t get it or his own way he formed ABC and has been hostil
5028Accurate
5029
5030Eric
5031James Howells
5032Amaury had his eye on BU’s pot of gold since day dot, and when he didn’t get it or his own way he formed ABC and has been hostil
5033thank you for this reply (and @AndrewStone @peterrizun for activity in here). it helps
5034i don’t want to sound too lazy, but many of us are doing actual projects irl (the same as you guys) and can’t keep up with dev drama or * drama
5035and since most users don’t run their own node (including miners at scale i’ve run into) nobody puts too much effort into it
5036i will say whether ABC/core were smearing BU or telling the truth, they did a good job getting their message out and coordinating
5037
5038Alexander Levinadmin
5039our customers just want some pool that wont activate tax rules that they can point their hash to
5040
5041Tom Harding
5042The duplicate-spend inflation bug (never exploited) was single biggest consensus flaw in the last ... 7 years? It existed in ABC and Core and NOT BU.
5043
5044James Howells
5045props to awemany*
5046
5047Eric
5048James Howells
5049props to awemany*
5050lol
5051Tom Harding
5052The duplicate-spend inflation bug (never exploited) was single biggest consensus flaw in the last ... 7 years? It existed in ABC
5053i guess that speaks to abc just porting core code and BU not. How does BU make this more apparent to more people?
5054Andrew
5055I appreciate it too.  There are things I can't say since they are unproveable and would just sound like throwing shit at a rival coming from me.  I won't do that.  So I'll only say stuff that's proveable: we worked with Amaury in BU before the split, and so got a great preview of his style.  He and freetrader were supposedly working with us up till the moment ABC was announced.  We didn't move much money to BCH.  We watched things unfold and did the best we could to build value.
5056note that awemany was working for BU when he found that issue too.
5057
5058checksum0
5059Tom Harding
5060The duplicate-spend inflation bug (never exploited) was single biggest consensus flaw in the last ... 7 years? It existed in ABC
5061Doesn't matter, BU did bigger mistake overall since bch exists (mostly 6 months before bsv fork) and miners won't run them.
5062
5063As far as I know I'm the last one that found a block with it and there was a massive bug in it considering the situation.
5064Andrew
5065@checksum0 please explain the bug
5066
5067James Howells
5068Did awemany ever get paid his $100k bounty for fixing ABC code... ?
5069Andrew
5070no
5071
5072checksum0
5073I've already explained the bug over and over and over, you think it's trivial, I think it's the end of the world
5074Agree to disagree
5075
5076James Howells
5077bit hypocritical claiming 'devs need to be paid' but not pay out a bug bounty for such a catastrophic screwup
5078Andrew
5079I simply would like you to explain it here so that others can make their own minds up whether it is as significant as an inflation bug or an inability to produce blocks.  If I explain it, you may get upset because I may present it lightly.  Its best to hear it from you.
5080@howelzy I think it was nchain that was offering the bounty
5081
5082Eric
5083Andrew
5084I simply would like you to explain it here so that others can make their own minds up whether it is as significant as an inflati
5085I think you should explain it and if checksum decides, he can add or explain as well. I would personally like to know.
5086
5087James Howells
5088but surly ABC should match that, given the gravity of their errors
5089
5090Eric
5091especially considering all of my hashrate will be on BU nodes by end of week
5092
5093James Howells
5094to not pay awemany a bug bounty and then claim 'devs must be paid by enforcing protocol level tax' is hypocritical imo.
5095Andrew
5096The BU bug was that it would accept certain OP_RETURN data that was bigger than configured by the bitcoin.conf file.  Basically, we recognised a specific type of OP_RETURN data transaction we call a "public label" and we did not check transactions of that type against the "generic" configuration limit for all OP_RETURN.
5097
5098Eric
5099Andrew
5100The BU bug was that it would accept certain OP_RETURN data that was bigger than configured by the bitcoin.conf file. Basically,
5101Does it still exist?
5102Andrew
5103no it was fixed a long time ago
5104
5105checksum0
5106Not, the bug is that it disregarded mining configuration settings
5107
5108Eric
5109checksum0
5110Not, the bug is that it disregarded mining configuration settings
5111as in bitcoin.conf settings or something else?
5112
5113checksum0
5114I ended up mining a several kilobytes op_return of "bitcoin is sv" repeated over and over, despite several configuration settings disallowing it
5115Eric
5116as in bitcoin.conf settings or something else?
5117Yes
5118Right after the bsv fork no less...
5119
5120Tom Harding
5121In contrast, ABC had a consensus bug for months prior to CDSV fork and chose not to fix it ... because miners were friendly.
5122
5123checksum0
5124So my company sporting the name in the coinbase look like damn retards
5125
5126Eric
5127well, we’ve had bugs in code too. i’m glad it’s fixed
5128
5129Alexander Levinadmin
5130bitcoin is satoshi’s vision, though. craig is just lying when he says his fork is
5131
5132checksum0
5133It's not the bug, it's the way you receive the freaking report
5134
5135Eric
5136Alexander Levin
5137bitcoin is satoshi’s vision, though. craig is just lying when he says his fork is
5138and that’s why every organization needs a little chutzpah
5139negative becomes positive!
5140
5141Alexander Levinadmin
5142yep
5143
5144checksum0
51451. Sport ton of bsv members as dead weight in your organization.
51462. Release codes that disregard config settings to mine blocks that follow bsv idealogies
51473. Don't fucking care when you get caught
5148That's how you mine your last block I guess :blush:
5149
5150Tom Harding
5151This group is the "new BSV". Should BU kick us all out?
5152
5153Eric
5154Tom Harding
5155This group is the "new BSV". Should BU kick us all out?
5156amaury is the new bsv, i didn’t change
5157
5158Alexander Levinadmin
5159taxes are antithetical to bitcoin
5160
5161checksum0
5162Tom Harding
5163This group is the "new BSV". Should BU kick us all out?
5164If BU was following Amaury, yes.
5165If BU followed BSV they should have got rid of their non-bsv members
5166Andrew
5167What was BU's position WRT BSV:
5168By rejecting every feature requested by BSV, ABC allowed BSV to define the BCH position.  And that position was counter to some of BCH's most important roadmap features -- in particular scalability.  BSV took the "unlimited" scalability narrative from BCH.  If we had "compromised" by accepting some of these features, we would have kept the all-important scaling narrative, and others.  We would have defined the BSV position and the resultant debate.  And that position would have been about being uncompromising, limiting innovation, and protecting patents.  BUIP098 formally suggested that we implement all features and let the miners vote on them, but the subtext coming from BU devs was to implement the scaling features (BSV), the ABC cleanups, OP_CDS, and to not implement CTOR (ABC) and 1 or 2 BSV features (or scale them back from unlimited) I don't remember exactly which now.  By requiring a miner vote, we sidestepped any small of collusion and so avoided a 100k+ USD suit.  At the same time, it was obvious who had the majority hash power and so would be able to define the feature set (bitmain).
5169
5170checksum0
5171Now they should get rid of their ABC loyalists members, not that I think there's any. It's mostly bsv members anyway
5172Andrew
5173ok here's my wall of text about BSV
5174you know its funny checksum0 and I were spitting bullets at eachother over that bug... now we are allies.
5175a democratic organization must live with some disagreement
5176its ok
5177
5178Eric
5179Andrew
5180you know its funny checksum0 and I were spitting bullets at eachother over that bug... now we are allies.
5181you should be careful. you can’t trust the french these days
5182
5183Alexander Levinadmin
5184i dont think patents have a place in bitcoin either
5185or money laundering
5186or pet features for the sake of features
5187
5188checksum0
5189And we will still be spitting bullets about this in the future
5190Eric
5191you should be careful. you can’t trust the french these days
5192I'm not French reee
5193
5194Eric
5195checksum0
5196I'm not French reee
5197thank you for your service
5198
5199checksum0
5200I just speak French, don't put me kn the same level as Amaury
5201
5202Alexander Levinadmin
5203Bitcoin :frog:?
5204Andrew
5205hey man, I get that was bad.  But there was never the possibility of 42 million BCH out there right now because of it.
5206
5207checksum0
5208I'm just a translator that can speak the enemy language :joy:
5209
5210Eric
5211Andrew
5212hey man, I get that was bad. But there was never the possibility of 42 million BCH out there right now because of it.
5213that’s true.
5214Andrew
5215Understand that the BU devs could be VERY RICH (or in jail) right now :blush: all we had to do was yield to the temptation to mint some BTC.  And we could have screwed over ABC too with that one
5216
5217checksum0
5218I think it's fairly irrelevant frankly of a bug that would have happened decades from now
5219Andrew
5220anyway, here's a link for BUIP098 if anyone wants to read what we formally proposed about BSV: https://github.com/BitcoinUnlimited/BUIP/blob/master/098.mediawiki
5221
5222GitHub
5223BitcoinUnlimited/BUIP
5224Bitcoin Unlimited Improvement Proposal Archive and related documentation - BitcoinUnlimited/BUIP
5225
5226Pauladmin
5227checksum0
5228Now they should get rid of their ABC loyalists members, not that I think there's any. It's mostly bsv members anyway
5229The majority in BU support BCH.
5230
5231checksum0
5232Doesn't matter anymore