kcCzrJSH

1Peter Rizun
2I think we all agree that 0conf is important.
3That’s one reason I’m pushing to continue rolling out double spend proofs.
4
5sploit#100 ?
6I completely misread the last part of that message above. Thats statement sounds about right to me
7
8Tyler Smith
9Even if it's not a requirement to coordinate a roll out of these kinds of changes, is there a reason not to?
10
11Joey B. Whatever
12Tyler Smith
13Even if it's not a requirement to coordinate a roll out of these kinds of changes, is there a reason not to?
14++
15
16SpiceBot
17Joey B. Whatever tipped 10 ? SPICE ? to Tyler Smith
18
19Tyler Smith
20I could see if ABC flat out rejected it then there's not really a choice but afaik that isn't the case here.
21
22Licho
23imagine implementing RBF. It's not consensus change, is it?
24
25Joey B. Whatever
26Amaury Séchet
27This tends to create a lot of rigidity. I foun in the past that imposing a rigid process from day one tends to have a lot of neg
28++
29
30SpiceBot
31Joey B. Whatever tipped 10 ? SPICE ? to Amaury Séchet
32
33Joey B. Whatever
34Peter Rizun
35Good question. A related question is which types of changes we _should_ worry about coordinating, and which we should not. Fo
36Developers should get out of the way but you want to just go ahead to add features without coordinating with others? What businesses and users have told you they want you to add this recklessly and creating a fissure in the community? Sounds more like a faux intellectual argument.
37
38Kelso:tm: ₿
39Loving this discussion, btw. Super informative.
40
41Antony Zegers
42Peter Rizun
43That’s one reason I’m pushing to continue rolling out double spend proofs.
44BU: "Hey, we broke 0-conf!... But don't worry, we'll just deploy this other complicated solution to fix the problem!"
45
46Don't worry that deploying DS-proofs won't really solve the 0-conf problem created by different mempool policies, and would take large effort to deploy across all the wallets that want to use them.
47
48Joey B. Whatever
49Also just because there is no risk of a chain split doesn’t mean it can’t be fucked (for the lack of a better term), you are advocating making experimental changes on mainnet  without peer review and coordination with other clients. What if businesses and users switch to BU under the pretense that it was fully evaluated, then it breaks?
50Andrea Suisani
51Antony Zegers
52BU: "Hey, we broke 0-conf!... But don't worry, we'll just deploy this other complicated solution to fix the problem!" Don't wor
53Antony seriously, BU broke 0conf? I must have missed that.
54
55Marco:fish:#977
56no, he's considering that possibility that it might in the future.
57Andrea Suisani
58Ok, fair, I missed it was hypothetical.
59
60Joey B. Whatever
61Also why are we not thinking about history here. If BU was good at delivering changes without breaking things - ABC would not have existed, and perhaps there would be no BCH/BTC fork.
62
63Marco:fish:#977
64Joey B. Whatever
65Also why are we not thinking about history here. If BU was good at delivering changes without breaking things - ABC would not ha
66yea, I wish there was a way to deliver this fact that doesn't get BU members all roused up and jittery
67Andrea Suisani
68Joey B. Whatever
69Also why are we not thinking about history here. If BU was good at delivering changes without breaking things - ABC would not ha
70This a legitimate position to have, but I don't see how this is pertinent with discussion.
71
72Joey B. Whatever
73Well you do have to look at track record, that’s what any business person would do to gauge whether something will work or not, even if it may be a bit off, but like he says himself, nobody even disagrees on the improvements needed, he just wants to do it without peer review from other clients - and for what reason?
74Andrea Suisani
75Joey B. Whatever
76Also why are we not thinking about history here. If BU was good at delivering changes without breaking things - ABC would not ha
77One should have the same position but on ABC due to the bug exploited during the last upgrade
78http://www.bitcoinabc.org/2019-05-28-incident-report/
79And this will be legitimate too
80Joey B. Whatever
81Well you do have to look at track record, that’s what any business person would do to gauge whether something will work or not,
82Yeah track record is important to keep into consideration
83
84Antony Zegers
85Andrea Suisani
86Antony seriously, BU broke 0conf? I must have missed that.
87OK, I'll admit I was a bit cheeky.
88But you have to admit it doesn't seem like a coincidence that DS-proofs are being promoted as something to improve 0-conf at the same time as we are discussing 0-conf concerns related to the 25-Tx-chain thing.
89
90I think it's important that we are very careful and precise about what DS-proof can provide (they are not a panacea), and whether or not that is related to the 25-Tx-chain 0-conf concerns.
91Andrea Suisani
92Antony Zegers
93OK, I'll admit I was a bit cheeky. But you have to admit it doesn't seem like a coincidence that DS-proofs are being promoted as
94Agreed like I said during the meeting DS proof is going to improve the reliability of zero conf of a subset of transactions in certain scenario
95Lastly I don't know if it is a coincidence that Tom Zander put the effort to code DS proof for flowee whereas at almost the same time ptschip came up with a solution for handling very long chain of unconf tx in the mempool.
96
97I'd say that it does seem a coincidence to me, especially because I think Tom and ptschip don't talk frequently. 
98
99Could be wrong thou, but this how I see it.
100
101Antony Zegers
102Andrea Suisani
103Lastly I don't know if it is a coincidence that Tom Zander put the effort to code DS proof for flowee whereas at almost the same
104I was more referring to Peter R mentioning DS Proofs in the middle of a discussion about the 25-Tx-chains. It gives the impression that they are linked, when they really shouldn't be.
105Mark Lundeberg
106I like DS proofs since they mean that fuzzy boundaries on relay rules are OK. For example, we might see situations where:
107- Devs want to fix a bug in some corner case of standardness rules. E.g., suppose there was a bug in the standard-tx checking code.
108- A dev like me may want to introduce some new script flag that affects only esoteric txns. E.g., a flag that restricts new-sigops-count.
109- Some node operators want to try running with higher limits on opreturn size, opreturn count, chain limit, free transactions, make P2PKH256 standard, etc.
110
111In any case where you change standard rules without synchronizing the activation time, you immediately enable double spend attacks due to differing node policy. DS proofs make up for this.
112
113Also, I am confident that if someone looks hard enough they will find already some standardness differences between ABC and BU that exist right now. Just as an example, BU used to allow unlimited opreturns if they followed a certain 'label' format. This isn't the case now but I'm sure there are other weird things like this.
114
115Peter Rizun
116@Mengerian DSproofs permit detection of reverse respend attacks.  Long mempool chains and dspoofs are linked to the extent that one is concerned with reverse respends.
117Well said @marklundeberg
118Amaury Séchet
119Peter Rizun
120That’s one reason I’m pushing to continue rolling out double spend proofs.
121Double spend proof do not solve this kind of zero conf problem, and I know you know. You are being disingenuous.
122
123Unfortunately, I called it. I'd like to be wrong more often on these matters.
124Antony Zegers
125BU: "Hey, we broke 0-conf!... But don't worry, we'll just deploy this other complicated solution to fix the problem!" Don't wor
126^
127Joey B. Whatever
128Developers should get out of the way but you want to just go ahead to add features without coordinating with others? What busine
129Unstable systems do not grow.
130
131Peter Rizun
132Double-spend proofs provide a warning against both fast respend and reverse respend attacks.  You are mistaken if you believe they do not.
133
134Double-spend proofs do not address miner-assisted 0-conf fraud nor forward respend attacks.
135Amaury Séchet
136Joey B. Whatever
137Also why are we not thinking about history here. If BU was good at delivering changes without breaking things - ABC would not ha
138It is not a very known fact, but before the BCH fork, there was an online meeting with BU and several miners. Certainly the majority of the hash at twe time. The goal was to have a rollout plan and timeline to activte bigger blocks on BTC. Andrew Stone and Clifford rejected any such agreement as it would be collusion. EC need to be used according to them. I do not think peter was part of this.
139Antony Zegers
140OK, I'll admit I was a bit cheeky. But you have to admit it doesn't seem like a coincidence that DS-proofs are being promoted as
141^
142Mark Lundeberg
143I like DS proofs since they mean that fuzzy boundaries on relay rules are OK. For example, we might see situations where: - Devs
144DS proofs do not help for double spend leveraging difference in mempool policies. If you changes these rules, DS proof absolutely do not make up for this. Consider:
145I make a payment using policy A.
146The merchant accept the payment as 0-conf after not seeing DS proof for a few secs.
147Once the payment is accepted, I send a transaction using policy B.
148Now my double spend will succeed with a probability depending on how many nodes mines with policy B.
149Peter Rizun
150Double-spend proofs provide a warning against both fast respend and reverse respend attacks. You are mistaken if you believe th
151I am not mistaken, and I do not think you are bringing this up randomly. See my response to Mark. This soit breaks zero confs with and without ds proof. You are smart enough to know this.
152
153This is manipulative, just like when you claimed ptschipper did fix data flow problems in the software.
154
155You are croosing lines that cannot be uncrossed right now, and I suggest you think twice. Once you moved from being an academic to being a propagandist, there is no comming back.
156
157Peter Rizun
158That is a forward respend attack, and indeed DSproofs do not help here.  Fortunately, such transactions are difficult too propagate (since most nodes will reject them) and miners can close these vectors by running with looser mempool settings even if they choose to be more strict with what they mine.  
159
1600-conf will never be perfect, but DSproofs address what were the two easiest attacks when I ran my experiment last year: fast respends and reverse respends.
161[Photo]
162^ clearly I am talking about reverse respend attacks here, Amaury.  I said it twice within two sentences.  If you were confused and thought DSproofs did not address the types of attacks I was discussing, it was entirely due to your reading comprehension.
163https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIt96gFh4vw
164YouTube
165Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
166Amaury Séchet
167So you chose the propaganda road. I can't say I'm surprised, but I'm disapointed nevertheless.
168
169Peter Rizun
170Amaury, I'm trying to be cooperative. So is @sickpig. If you indeed do want to cooperate, then please try to be objective during these technical discussion, and more polite in general. It is difficult to continue otherwise. I want to fix the mempool chaining issue and I want to improve 0-conf by adding DSproofs. I believe the community and businesses want both of these things too.  I will continue to work on them.  I would prefer if ABC helped.  If not, so be it.
171Amaury Séchet
172You are not. You misrepresented ptchip's work, then misrepresented ds proofs capabilities. You are playing politics.
173
174Your game will cause people in that chan to lose theis savings. This is sick.
175
176Marco:fish:#977
177"If not, so be it."
178
179Oh boy. Sometimes I wonder whether BUnlimited is a Bitcoin node software project or a 1776 reenactment club...
180Amaury Séchet
181And 1777,1778, etc...
182
183Badi Badou
184/price@h3idibot
185
186heidi
187BCH = 266.678 USD
1881h    +2.74336%
18924h   +23.963%
190
1910-conf instant deposit BCH poker
192
193Badi Badou
194heidi
195BCH = 266.678 USD 1h +2.74336% 24h +23.963% 0-conf instant deposit BCH poker
196
197
198paire dodue
199Amaury Séchet
200You are not. You misrepresented ptchip's work, then misrepresented ds proofs capabilities. You are playing politics. Your game
201[? Sticker]
202Mark Lundeberg
203Amaury Séchet
204DS proofs do not help for double spend leveraging difference in mempool policies. If you changes these rules, DS proof absolutel
205Yes, it only helps when the merchant examines payment A and knows that it satisfies the policy of all relevant nodes (i.e., payment A satisfies both policy A and policy B).
206By the way, I'm curious what would happen in the preconsensus system when there are any differences in relay policy.
207
208MeansofExchange
209
210paire dodue
211:pensive: Sticker
212FML
213
214VaKaNo
215[? Sticker]
216
217paire dodue
218
219VaKaNo
220:bomb: Sticker
221a bit late to the party my dude
222
223Antony Zegers
224Peter Rizun
225^ clearly I am talking about reverse respend attacks here, Amaury. I said it twice within two sentences. If you were confused
226Peter, the problem is that you say things that, even if they are "technically correct", it's misleading in the context of what we are talking about.
227We're talking about the 25-Tx-chain issue, and potential effects on 0-conf from that. So when someone expresses concern about how it affects 0-conf, then you say "That’s one reason I’m pushing to continue rolling out double spend proofs", that makes it sound like DS-proof fixes the problem, when it really doesn't.
228
229Christian#1000:diamonds:
230https://twitter.com/BitcoinCast/status/1187958152693719040?s=20
231Bitcoin Cast
232Join us in Los Angeles for a #BitcoinCash spending spree!:moneybag:?:tada: When: Saturday, November 2nd 9am-12am Where: https://t.co/fsdGDuR0Zu RSVP to encourage more #BCH adoption.?
233[Photo]
234
235Mitchell
236Roger dollars unite!
237[Photo]
238Lets thank our supreme leaders
239
240honkhonk:ribbon:#19779
241@coinsmith ^
242
243Mitchell
244Calling daddy to save you?
245This channel is not for bagholders, I thought roger dollars were the heaviest bags of them all
246
247Marco:fish:#977
248cool, we have stage invasions now
249
250honkhonk:ribbon:#19779
251imagine being this person ^
252[? Sticker]
253
254David Hunter
255[? Sticker]
256
257Mitchell
258honkhonk:ribbon:#19779
259imagine being this person ^
260Imagine having the miniority hashrate btc chain
261
262honkhonk:ribbon:#19779
263[?? Sticker]
264
265Mitchell
266[? Sticker]
267
268Jakeadmin
269Mitchell
270Calling daddy to save you?
271banned lol
272
273David Hunter
274Mitchell
275Imagine having the miniority hashrate btc chain
276Haha what brings u here
277I wanna hear him.out
278The message is not supported on your version of Telegram Web. Update the app to view: web.telegram.org.
279honkhonk:ribbon:#19779
280@coinsmith ^
281Why are you tagging him
282Jake
283banned lol
284Was he banned?
285
286Jakeadmin
287David Hunter
288Was he banned?
289yes
290
291David Hunter
292@coinsmith ?
293Uh
294Why?
295
296Marco:fish:#977
297no, security just tackled him and dragged him off stage
298
299Jakeadmin
300Because he's a troll
301
302David Hunter
303He said 3 things
304
305Jakeadmin
306A lot of trolls try to join this group
307
308David Hunter
309People are not allowed to make iokes?
310
311Jakeadmin
312Anyone coming in here and saying "bow down to your leaders" and "calling daddy to save you?" is not here to have good faith discussion
313
314David Hunter
315So?
316
317Jakeadmin
318David Hunter
319People are not allowed to make iokes?
320of course they are, there's a difference between trolls and jokes
321
322David Hunter
323lol
324So you just randomly ban people because they say things you dont like?
325
326Jakeadmin
327It wasn't random
328
329David Hunter
330I was looking forward to having a spicy convo
331
332Jakeadmin
333There are trollier BCH chats than this one
334yo @Hellodavid have you seen blockchain.poker?
335There's a 1.3 BCH guaranteed tournament that begins in 6 hours. 0.1 BCH entry fee. https://blockchain.poker?tournament=4809
336
337Blockchain Poker
338The best Bitcoin Poker games and tournaments are happening right now on Blockchain Poker! Build your bankroll for FREE with Bitcoin (BTC), Bitcoin Cash (BCH), or Bitcoin SV (BSV).
339Jake pinned «There's a 1.3 BCH guaranteed tournament that begins in 6 hours. 0.1 BCH entry fee. https://blockchain.poker?tournament=4809»
340
341David Hunter
342Allright guys i think im out, if this group chat is ran this way its not for me, not a fan of sensitive faggy admins who ban people for jokes or disagreeing with people
343If i wanted an echo chamber ran by totalitarians id post on reddit
344Bye
345
346Jakeadmin
347:v:
348
349David Hunter
350@cameronlee see u in spicetoken
351
352Cameron Lee
353David Hunter
354@cameronlee see u in spicetoken
355yeah thats where it's (mostly) no holds barred
356
357Kain_ niaK
358150 minutes no new block
359BCH is hashrate starved right now
360
361honkhonk:ribbon:#19779
362Kain_ niaK
363BCH is hashrate starved right now
364yeah we knew this would happen, variance is fucked
365
366Anthony Banks
3672,5mb block
368just in
369
370Linzerd ?
371Big blocks
372
373Licho
374feels good
375
376Bitister
377David Hunter
378@cameronlee see u in spicetoken
379:+1:?
380
381SpiceBot
382Bitister tipped 5 ? SPICE ? to David Hunter
383
384Pedro Romero
385David Hunter
386Allright guys i think im out, if this group chat is ran this way its not for me, not a fan of sensitive faggy admins who ban peo
387Have a good time.
388Naomi Brockwell joined the group
389
390SpiceQueen
391Naomi Brockwell
392joined the group
393Hello friend
394Pavel Averjanov
395SpiceQueen
396Hello friend
397?  this is masterpeace, Naomi :heart: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqxNbGvNamY
398YouTube
399Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
400
401SpiceBot
402@Pavel Averjanov, you don't have enough ? SPICE ?!
403Pavel Averjanov
404fck, i need more spice
405
406Mikeadmin
407Pavel Averjanov
408fck, i need more spice
409:baby_bottle:
410
411SpiceBot
412Mike tipped 0.00000001 ? SPICE ? to Pavel Averjanov
413
414Mikeadmin
415Pavel Averjanov
416? this is masterpeace, Naomi :heart: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqxNbGvNamY
417:fire:?:fire:?:fire:?:fire:?
418
419SpiceBot
420Mike tipped 420 ? SPICE ? to Pavel Averjanov
421Pavel Averjanov
422thx mike
423SpiceQueen
424Hello friend
425?????
426
427SpiceBot
428@Pavel Averjanov, you don't have enough ? SPICE ?!
429Pavel Averjanov
430WTF fcking but i HAVE
431
432Collin ?
433Nope
434Pavel Averjanov
435WTF fcking but i HAVE
436?
437
438SpiceBot
439Collin ? tipped 100 ? SPICE ? to Pavel Averjanov
440
441SpiceQueen
442Pavel Averjanov
443WTF fcking but i HAVE
444:kiss::kiss:
445
446SpiceBot
447SpiceQueen tipped 100 ? SPICE ? to Pavel Averjanov
448Pavel Averjanov
449i am gonna buy 1 mln spice
450
451SpiceQueen
452Pavel Averjanov
453i am gonna buy 1 mln spice
454Do it
455Pavel Averjanov
456this is joke
457Pavel Averjanov
458SpiceBotOct 26, 2019 7:58:10 AM
459We are currently in maintenance mode. Deposits are temporarily disabled.
460
461Naomi Brockwell
462Pavel Averjanov
463? this is masterpeace, Naomi :heart: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqxNbGvNamY
464:joy::yellow_heart:
465
466SpiceQueen
467Pavel Averjanov
468this is joke
469No not a joke
470
471Cryptopanda
472Naomi > Taylor
473
474Jett Scythe
475bahahha. Was just kicked from the p2p group. I hadn't even posted
476
477paire dodue
478David Hunter
479Allright guys i think im out, if this group chat is ran this way its not for me, not a fan of sensitive faggy admins who ban peo
480i think you are the faggot here tbh
481
482Jakeadmin
483paire dodue
484i think you are the faggot here tbh
485[? Sticker]
486
487SpiceQueen
488paire dodue
489i think you are the faggot here tbh
490Shots fired
491SPAZTEEQ
492what happened to all the cookies
493
494Hamza S
495Just saw this on reddit, Awesome idea by @Christian657 from Bitcoin Cast podcast https://www.meetup.com/BitcoinCashLosAngeles/events/265970300/
496November Bitcoin Cash Spending Spree
497Sat, Nov 2, 2019, 9:00 AM: Join us as we visit 3 of our favorite Bitcoin Cash merchants this next Saturday.We will be at the following merchants the f...
498[Photo]
499
500Christian#1000:diamonds:
501Hamza S
502Just saw this on reddit, Awesome idea by @Christian657 from Bitcoin Cast podcast https://www.meetup.com/BitcoinCashLosAngeles/ev
503++
504
505SpiceBot
506Christian#1000:diamonds: tipped 10 ? SPICE ? to Hamza S
507
508Naomi Brockwell
509Cryptopanda
510Naomi > Taylor
511:open_mouth:
512You say all the right things to butter me up :yellow_heart:
513Naomi Brockwell
514:open_mouth: You say all the right things to butter me up :yellow_heart:
515But also no one is > Taylor (just ignore everything she does not related to music)
516
517Lizzie
518yo! friends! eatbch ss accounts are verrryyyy low, who wants to re-tweet some of our tweets ? they have a verrrrrryyyyy low re-tweet rate these days ;) and some engagement would really benefit us! many if not most of our south sudanese brothers and sisters only have one meal a day (ever) and sometimes that meal comes from us ... so as you’re eating your breakfast + lunch + dinner today, it can’t hurt to re-tweet?
519
520Kanat Amren
521https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/dne9o6/bch_should_drop_sha256d_pow_or_0conf/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
522
523reddit
524BCH should drop SHA256d, POW, or 0-conf
525Posted in r/btc by u/arruah • 1 point and 0 comments
526What do you think guys? We need more hashpower.
527
528SpiceQueen
529Lizzie
530yo! friends! eatbch ss accounts are verrryyyy low, who wants to re-tweet some of our tweets ? they have a verrrrrryyyyy low re-t
531Where is the link I can retweet
532
533Lizzie
534SpiceQueen
535Where is the link I can retweet
536thank you so much! any and all tweets on our page love being retweeted. https://twitter.com/eatbch_ss/status/1187427388654702592?s=21
537eatBCH South Sudan
538We started new feeding at some medical centers around Juba! we will not post pictures of people in hospital, out of respect for privacy. This food wil...
539[Photo]
540
541Kanat Amren
542Need some spice BTW.
543
544SpiceQueen
545Lizzie
546thank you so much! any and all tweets on our page love being retweeted. https://twitter.com/eatbch_ss/status/1187427388654702592
547Done
548Kanat Amren
549Need some spice BTW.
550:kiss::kiss:
551
552SpiceBot
553SpiceQueen tipped 100 ? SPICE ? to Kanat Amren
554
555Lizzie
556so much thanks ???????
557
558paire dodue
559[Photo]
560
561Lizzie
562SpiceQueen
563Done
564?
565
566SpiceBot
567Lizzie tipped 100 ? SPICE ? to SpiceQueen
568
569SpiceQueen
570Lizzie
571so much thanks ???????
572Anytime I love the work of Eatbch and donate often
573
574Kanat Amren
575
576paire dodue
577Photo
578Very dangerous
579
580paire dodue
581Reality is harsh
582
583Henry Austin
584Lizzie
585thank you so much! any and all tweets on our page love being retweeted. https://twitter.com/eatbch_ss/status/1187427388654702592
586Liked an RTd
587
588paire dodue
589My perfect scenario: Bitcoin ABC gather BCH miners support and find a deal for funding with Jihan and Xi. Bitcoin ABC forks for good and leave BU in the rearview mirror. Short term pain AGAIN, then seeds planted by Bitcoin ABC bloom and we see real scaling happening by adoption. Roger decide to stick with his antics and get rekt again, joins ABC.
590
591Elryn
592paire dodue
593i think you are the faggot here tbh
594[? Sticker]
595paire dodue
596i think you are the faggot here tbh
597??
598
599SpiceBot
600Elryn tipped 200 ? SPICE ? to paire dodue
601
602paire dodue
603ty
604If BU is a gangrene, then best thing is to cut the sick limb
605sp sp
606[Photo]
607Bch
608Amaury Séchet
609paire dodue
610My perfect scenario: Bitcoin ABC gather BCH miners support and find a deal for funding with Jihan and Xi. Bitcoin ABC forks for
611I hope it doesn't come to this. Unfortunately, actions taken seems to send toward toat scenario. It's very disapionting.
612
613Lizzie
614Henry Austin
615Liked an RTd
616thank you so much !
617paire dodue
618My perfect scenario: Bitcoin ABC gather BCH miners support and find a deal for funding with Jihan and Xi. Bitcoin ABC forks for
619fyi from the career peacebuilder, I still have a team of high level mediators on hand at annnyyyy time people want to try and work things out through dialogue
620
621paire dodue
622Lizzie
623fyi from the career peacebuilder, I still have a team of high level mediators on hand at annnyyyy time people want to try and wo
624??
625Amaury Séchet
626Lizzie
627fyi from the career peacebuilder, I still have a team of high level mediators on hand at annnyyyy time people want to try and wo
628There are only so many times peeple can cause giant disaster by refusing to cooperate before this options isn't an option.
629Every 6 we got someone thau knows better and want to fix it.
630It's not working. The reality is, when, you repeatedly fuck up for several years, you get fired.
631
632reizu
633
634paire dodue
635Photo
636Any idea what miner could be qqq9v3hhl0vga8w5cts6dx5aa8xep2v2ssvppp5xcn?
637
638Lizzie
639I’m a hard person to sell this idea to ... you should see some rebel leaders we have brought to tables for true dialogue :relaxed:
640Amaury Séchet
641There are only so many times peeple can cause giant disaster by refusing to cooperate before this options isn't an option.
642[Photo]
643Amaury Séchet
644There are only so many times peeple can cause giant disaster by refusing to cooperate before this options isn't an option.
645[Photo]
646Spartan joined the group
647
648Lizzie
649Lizzie
650I’m a hard person to sell this idea to ... you should see some rebel leaders we have brought to tables for true dialogue :relaxed:
651sure, sometimes factions do go back to war after coming to the table, but we always keep trying to bring them back in
652@deadalnix for sure you know more about these specifics than I do / am meaning to be much more process-oriented in this discussion than specific
653
654Tyler Smith
655I think we can at least all agree that Amaury would look cooler if he wore camo and an orange baret
656a 5 foot long rifle might also help keep trolls at bay
657
658Antony Zegers
659Peter Rizun
660Amaury, I'm trying to be cooperative. So is @sickpig. If you indeed do want to cooperate, then please try to be objective during
661I have been mulling this over a bit. It seems you're trying to frame yourself as the reasonable cooperative one, so let's looks at what has been done so far.
662
663First, for context, let's remember that this 25-Tx-chain issue is something that everyone agrees needs to be solved. I personally have been trying for about the last year to make suggestions, and line up resources and devs to work on it. It has been frustrating to make so little progress, but we want a solution that actually works in the long term. So this is not a matter of wanting different goals, it's just a matter of resources and coordination.
664
665Now to the BU plan. The first I, and probably anyone else in ABC, heard about the BU's plan was your social announcements that BU "solved" this issue. This is not cooperative. There was no efforts to reach out to ABC and coordinate this as far as I know. I added the topic to our Dev meeting agenda, if I hadn't done this, would anyone have even brought it up to ABC people? @sickpig has been taking some actions trying to cooperate, encouraging people to try to look at Peter T's patch for ABC. No one else seems to be reaching out as far as I can tell. And now you make a take-it-or-leave-it, "If not, so be it" ultimatum... that's not cooperative. Again Sickpig is saying the right things about wanting to work with ABC, and not have BU go it alone, but talking to you and him is starting to feel like a good cop / bad cop routine.
666
667If BU goes it alone, say Bitcoin.com mines with it, and others don't. This will basically be crappy half-ass "solution" to the mempool chaining limit, that's imposing extra hassle for the services that want to use it. They will have to set up the correct nodes, and manually make sure they are connected to the correct mining pool. Maybe this is good PR for BU (although I doubt it), but it's not great for BCH, and creates all kinds of complication and distraction. If, on the other hand, BU works together with ABC, maybe it's more frustrating in the short term, but at least we have a chance at coming up with a solution that actually works for the whole network.
668
669Marco:fish:#977
670Antony Zegers
671I have been mulling this over a bit. It seems you're trying to frame yourself as the reasonable cooperative one, so let's looks
672good points antony, thank you here's a mushroom :mushroom:
673
674SpiceBot
675Marco:fish:#977 tipped 978 ? SPICE ? to Antony Zegers
676
677Antony Zegers
678Speaking of cooperating, we have some historical examples of what works and what doesn't work. Let's compare and contrast OP_GROUP and OP_CHECKDATASIG.
679
680In the case of OP_GROUP, Andrew Stone and BU tried to push this through against objections from ABC. This resulted in all kinds of drama, and didn't work. This is what I'm worried about happening again with this 25-Tx-chain limit issue. I want to avoid this.
681
682Then look at what happened with OP_CHECKDATASIG. Andrew Stone proposed OP_DATASIGVERIFY. People thought something like that was a good idea in concept. Andrew had made a proposal and implementation, but as far as I know he hadn't reached out for peer review on it (at least not external to BU). Shammah made a Pull Request for Andrew's proposal to the bitcoincash.org specification repo in May 2018. There were a few comments, but basically little progress was being made. I could see that it was not on track to be included in the upgrade, so I offered to handle the review and try to get it merged, and Andrew accepted this help. Then I reached out to various people such as Tom Harding, Chris Pacia, Amaury, Clemens Ley, and others. Actually Clemens ended up probably being the most involved in working on it. All the reviewers suggested changing to signature format to be the same as the others already in the protocol (OP_CHECKSIG and variants), so we did that change, and a few other that were more minor. I think, in retrospect, pretty much everyone agrees that what we ended up with was good (and it turned out to be pretty much identical to Core's "CHECKSIGFROMSTACK, so that's a good sign), and it made it into the protocol. For all this, Andrew seems to still complain about what I did. I'm sure I didn't handle everything perfectly (it was all a bit last minute also). But the point is that this active reaching out, seeking input, and being willing to incorporate feedback is what leads to successful outcome. That is cooperation.
683
684So given that we have examples of what works, and what doesn't work (and cause disruption and drama), it seems obvious which path is better.
685
686Licho
687Antony Zegers
688Speaking of cooperating, we have some historical examples of what works and what doesn't work. Let's compare and contrast OP_GRO
689And now we have awesome smart money and we non-custodially replicate more and more features from legacy financial system thanks to it <3
690GOOD JOB
691
692Antony Zegers
693Licho
694GOOD JOB
695Thanks :-)
696Antony Zegers
697Speaking of cooperating, we have some historical examples of what works and what doesn't work. Let's compare and contrast OP_GRO
698Relevant links on the CHECKDATASIG history, for those interested:
699
700https://github.com/bitcoincashorg/bitcoincash.org/pull/10
701
702https://gist.github.com/Mengerian/d200f8b3a238a256642e498ca796e7c4
703
704https://github.com/bitcoincashorg/bitcoincash.org/pull/93
705GitHub
706Add `opdatasigverify.md` specification by schancel · Pull Request #10 · bitcoinc...
707Add opdatasigverify spec for November.
708@fyookball @Mengerian @gandrewstone
709
710Joey B. Whatever
711Antony Zegers
712Speaking of cooperating, we have some historical examples of what works and what doesn't work. Let's compare and contrast OP_GRO
713++
714
715SpiceBot
716Joey B. Whatever tipped 10 ? SPICE ? to Antony Zegers
717Amaury Séchet
718Antony Zegers
719Speaking of cooperating, we have some historical examples of what works and what doesn't work. Let's compare and contrast OP_GRO
720++
721
722SpiceBot
723Amaury Séchet tipped 10 ? SPICE ? to Antony Zegers
724
725Joey B. Whatever
726“If not, so be it” - yeah this is really helping @peterrizun . BU already helped create a fissure in BCH once by supporting BSV, why don’t you do it again?
727Amaury Séchet
728Joey B. Whatever
729“If not, so be it” - yeah this is really helping @peterrizun . BU already helped create a fissure in BCH once by supporting BSV,
730Because they did so several times already, and suffered no cost sor it, so why stop?
731
732Joey B. Whatever
733Peter, All your actions will achieve is take attention off the cool stuff happening in BCH (slp etc) and plunge everyone into a shitshow for what? Your ego?
734Grido
735Antony Zegers
736Speaking of cooperating, we have some historical examples of what works and what doesn't work. Let's compare and contrast OP_GRO
737?️
738
739SpiceBot
740Grido tipped 100 ? SPICE ? to Antony Zegers
741SPAZTEEQ
742roger's move
743imagine how strong this could be
744at this juncture
745BCH.Captain
746Thank you Antony for taking the time to write that. I think I speak for several people when I say it is much easier to read and accept your reasoned and emotion free statements. Maybe it would be wise for you to have long chat with Roger and give ABC's perspective. I don't think Roger would care to hear from Amaury considering all of the insults he has thrown.
747Also, considering your deep understanding of economics you can relate to Roger better. If he is anything like me, he probably thinks the economics of BCH are 10X more important than the computer science.
748Greg joined the group
749SPAZTEEQ
750do several BU members still support BSV?
751
752David Klakurka
753SPAZTEEQ
754do several BU members still support BSV?
755There's a few
756Most don't vote anymore though last I checked
757
758Lizzie
759https://peacemaker.un.org/sites/peacemaker.un.org/files/GuidanceEffectiveMediation_UNDPA2012(english)_0.pdf
760 504 KB
761Greg
762SpiceQueen
763Hello friend
764BCHBU vs BCHBA
765
766MeansofExchange
767Has anyone actually talked to this researcher (as they claim) and is anyone willing to say anything publicly about what, if anything, is being done to mitigate the issue?
768
769https://twitter.com/ZeroNoncense/status/1188187298652930049?s=20
770Twitter
771hash.fail
7721/ After looking deeper into this issue, there is *enormous cause for concern* as the entity in question on the Bitcoin Cash blockchain essentially ha...
773Amaury Séchet
774MeansofExchange
775Has anyone actually talked to this researcher (as they claim) and is anyone willing to say anything publicly about what, if anyt
776You got to ask miners.
777
778Felix
779This looks bad. Very bad.
780Amaury Séchet
781You got to ask miners.
782The unknown one?
783
784MeansofExchange
785Amaury Séchet
786You got to ask miners.
787I'm going to assume that means that the miners are indeed planning some kind of response
788
789Anthony Banks
790unknown can be multiple miners, just not identifying themselves, no?
791or is it clear it is one mining party?
792BCH.Captain
793Anthony Banks
794unknown can be multiple miners, just not identifying themselves, no?
795Right?
796
797Felix
798Reading the Twitter thread and I got the impression that it's only one entity
799
800Anthony Banks
801but on that thread they only mark unknown in the block list
802
803David Klakurka
804It's more then one but there are 1-2 with a large share of it
805BCH.Captain
806Is that what they are concluding 59% unknown must be a single miner.... Quite a stretch
807
808Anthony Banks
809as if it is one party
810
811Felix
8124/ With the address in question that we're looking at (https://t.co/zss2TEd7u6) , it has been the recipient of countless coinbase rewards, so its more than reasonable to suggest that whatever entity/entities its attached to = connected/working in unison
813
814Blockchair
815Bitcoin Cash / Address / qqq9v3hhl0vga8w5cts6dx5aa8xep2v2ssvppp5xcn — Blockchair
816Check Bitcoin Cash (BCH) address qqq9v3hhl0vga8w5cts6dx5aa8xep2v2ssvppp5xcn (112nMeVcsakQtSarLSA3F5wHmbRjqC3y3i), its balance and transactions
817
818Anthony Banks
819or is there an address attached that confirms it is one party?
820
821Felix
822Anthony Banks
823or is there an address attached that confirms it is one party?
824Yes one party or multiple action together
825
826Anthony Banks
827cuz to be fair, BCH has survived so far ,more than once, with the unknown slice being 50%+
828
829Felix
830But it has never happened like this. Even Amaury admits the issue:
831
8328/ Spoke w Amaury Sechet & other devs in the $BCH ecosystem. 
833
834They are aware of the problem. 
835
836There's nothing that they can realistically do about the situation since its out of their hands.
837
838Anthony Banks
839my point being, if it is more independent miners... thats not bad.. of course if it is clearly one party, thats a bad situation
840
841Felix
842Anthony Banks
843my point being, if it is more independent miners... thats not bad.. of course if it is clearly one party, thats a bad situation
844Did you even read the tweets lol
845
846Matt Carson
847As long as a currency is the minority of hashrate of a specific algo
848
849Felix
8506/ What's concerning is not just the fact that this address is *dominating* in terms of % of blocks found/won, it is also finding blocks at an absurd rate. 
851
852Between 11 a.m. - 1 p.m. UTC today, this entity found 24 (TWENTY FOUR) blocks. That's absurd.
853
854Matt Carson
855This will be an issue
856SHA256 being the best and most public example
857
858David Klakurka
859Felix
8606/ What's concerning is not just the fact that this address is *dominating* in terms of % of blocks found/won, it is also findin
861It's nothing new. It's been like this for a long time
862
863Felix
864Haha
865
866David Klakurka
867We're just seeing further optimization to game the DAA
868
869Felix
870This doesn't make it sound less harmless
871What are you talking about. DAA is broken:
872
8736b/ However, with this entity finding *24 blocks* in a 2-hour time span, it is not only beating out the entire network, its pretty much 'broken' the retargeting algorithm for $BCH. This is not good. 
874
875Attached is the documentation on diff retarg. for $BCH
876
877https://t.co/naCGHKrsaU https://t.co/ygAHPsAH58
878bitcoincashorg/bitcoincash.org
879Repository for all the assets for bitcoincash.org. Contribute to bitcoincashorg/bitcoincash.org development by creating an account on GitHub.
880[Photo]
881
882David Klakurka
883Yes this has been an issue for a long time. He makes it seem like he made this huge discovery but there's actually nothing new here.
884
885There are several solutions to this problem but in the meantime the oscillations will continue
886
887MeansofExchange
888David Klakurka
889Yes this has been an issue for a long time. He makes it seem like he made this huge discovery but there's actually nothing new h
890Unless they attempt a 51% attack, it's basically just an annoyance to users, but it's still shitty
891
892David Klakurka
893MeansofExchange
894Unless they attempt a 51% attack, it's basically just an annoyance to users, but it's still shitty
895There's a lot of shitty things in BCH and not enough people to fix them. That's the main issue.
896
897Felix
898Very optimistic
899
900MeansofExchange
901David Klakurka
902There's a lot of shitty things in BCH and not enough people to fix them. That's the main issue.
903Fortunately this one can be outsourced to the miners
904
905David Klakurka
906It will also solve itself if BCH can attain a larger share of the market capitalization of the SHA256 mining family
907
908MeansofExchange
909David Klakurka
910It will also solve itself if BCH can attain a larger share of the market capitalization of the SHA256 mining family
911e.g., there's more funding for infra, people take the chain more seriously, number goes up, hash follows?
912
913David Klakurka
914MeansofExchange
915e.g., there's more funding for infra, people take the chain more seriously, number goes up, hash follows?
916Yeah in theory
917Andre Cabrera
918We need more funding for infra or we will get rekt
919Amaury Séchet
920MeansofExchange
921e.g., there's more funding for infra, people take the chain more seriously, number goes up, hash follows?
922It's not so straightforward, but funding infra is part of it. More generaly, we need to be sending a consistent signal and display comitment. Funding infra is one way to demonstrate comitment. There are others.
923BCH.Captain
924Tattoos?
925Amaury Séchet
926You can see this play in the btc vs bch split, where btc showed great comitment, but many big blockers lost themselves in sw2x and other lost causes. In the bsv case, there was no pre comitment from big players.This causes the rest of the market to not have a point to raly on.
927
928Marco:fish:#977
929I'm gonna die hugging my 1.02 bch for what's worth
930Amaury Séchet
931Another side effect is that we end up collecting the uncooperative folks.
932Being uncooperative in a high comitment culture is very high cost/low benefit, but in a low comitment environment, it's the opposite.
933
934Joey B. Whatever
935Amaury Séchet
936Being uncooperative in a high comitment culture is very high cost/low benefit, but in a low comitment environment, it's the oppo
937++
938
939SpiceBot
940Joey B. Whatever tipped 10 ? SPICE ? to Amaury Séchet
941
942Joey B. Whatever
943Why don’t we just admit it - anarchy with no agreed goals/rules as a governance model does not solve itself...
944This romanticism with applying extreme libertarian philosophy to bch will end with the death of it or at best a irrelevant buggy science project which ironically is what we accused BTC of doing.
945
946Linzerd ?
947Joey B. Whatever
948Why don’t we just admit it - anarchy with no agreed goals/rules as a governance model does not solve itself...
949++
950
951SpiceBot
952Linzerd ? tipped 10 ? SPICE ? to Joey B. Whatever
953
954Marco:fish:#977
955yea, i was gonna disagree with you there but deleted it heh. I think it's possible to be ancap and not silly, BUT i see some problems in that front, yea
956
957Joey B. Whatever
958What i mean is - we collect all the strongly opinionated people that got censored from btc, we also encourage them to be opinionated and argue, but we don’t want to commit to anything either so you just end up with something worst than what we were trying to get away from.
959And what BU is attempting to do is to move us further into the everyone does their own thing without regard of the community idea and will just end up breaking whats left.
960CA joined the group
961
962Marco:fish:#977
963Joey B. Whatever
964What i mean is - we collect all the strongly opinionated people that got censored from btc, we also encourage them to be opinion
965[Photo]
966
967Joey B. Whatever
968Im not against the “vision” of libertarianism - i just think there are practical realities which results have shown us time and time again, and it only makes sense to compromise with a reality a little to achieve the vision.
969I guess at some point everyone in bch should ask themselves - are you supporting making the best p2p money for the world or are you just projecting your political idealisms into it?
970
971MeansofExchange
972I wonder if we would benefit from an independently funded project manager to go between the tribes
973I guess the answer is yes, but like everything else in the space, who puts up the money
974
975Joey B. Whatever
976Like “everyone does as they please because they are free” but receive zero consequences for destroying the results of everyone else, is projecting your idea of a utopia and not making p2p cash a reality.
977Well the money is more likely to come if 1) ask for it from people who actually have money 2) the community looks unified behind an agreed set of specs and roadmap and not a bad soap opera without chicks ?
978Its a bit hard to sell a business on top of bch, when the reputation is “anything goes brother”
979Like Jake kicking out the troll is us learning that keeping them around just creates chaos and drains value from BCH. Would people invest in a country where the idea is they just let terrorists do as they please?
980
981Matt Carson
982Joey B. Whatever
983This romanticism with applying extreme libertarian philosophy to bch will end with the death of it or at best a irrelevant buggy
984THIS
985Joey B. Whatever
986Like Jake kicking out the troll is us learning that keeping them around just creates chaos and drains value from BCH. Would peop
987Terrists of cource is defined by the majority
988Not to disparage that , but important to note
989Democracy inheritly is the tyrany of the masses
990By design
991
992Joey B. Whatever
993Maybe not the best analogy, but my point i guess is people invest in stability.
994
995Matt Carson
996Joey B. Whatever
997Maybe not the best analogy, but my point i guess is people invest in stability.
998Gets the point across for me
999BCH.Captain
1000Joey, you clearly don't understand anarcho-capitalism. I can tell by the words you use.
1001I would make the claim that anarcho-capitalism is better than Communist Party China..... You would respond by saying I am making a claim of utopia
1002Who has ever claimed anarcho-capitalism would be utopia?
1003It would simply be more peaceful and productive than the alternatives. It doesn't turn people in to angels
1004
1005Joey B. Whatever
1006BCH.Captain
1007Joey, you clearly don't understand anarcho-capitalism. I can tell by the words you use.
1008Perhaps. I never mentioned ancap though. I don’t believe true ancap is anarchy without repercussions or governance. This is exactly what BU is pushing for imo.
1009My understanding is ancap is not meant to be purist.
1010BCH.Captain
1011You don't make sense
1012
1013Joey B. Whatever
1014BCH.Captain
1015You don't make sense
1016Clarify?
1017BCH.Captain
1018Please restate your thesis in a way that makes sense
1019
1020Joey B. Whatever
1021Communism is a political philosophy, in reality to make it work you have to compromise with reality so you end up with China or Russia, something has to give. Ancap is also the same.
1022BCH.Captain
1023How would you define communism 'working'? Killing less than 10 million people?
1024
1025Cameron Lee
1026Joey B. Whatever
1027Its a bit hard to sell a business on top of bch, when the reputation is “anything goes brother”
1028:gem:
1029
1030SpiceBot
1031Cameron Lee tipped 1,000 ? SPICE ? to Joey B. Whatever
1032
1033Cameron Lee
1034Matt Carson
1035Democracy inheritly is the tyrany of the masses
1036:gem:
1037
1038SpiceBot
1039Cameron Lee tipped 1,000 ? SPICE ? to Matt Carson
1040
1041Oscar Salas
1042Andrea Suisani
1043@amaury we didn't change the default and we won't do it, before tests will be carried out as I already told you today. Once we
1044Who is this
1045BCH.Captain
1046Or does communism only 'work' when it is soft-communism? In other words, it only works when it fails to be communism
1047
1048Cameron Lee
1049Soon you’ll all be fascists like me
1050
1051Oscar Salas
1052Cameron Lee
1053Soon you’ll all be fascists like me
1054I am fascist now
1055[? Sticker]
1056BCH.Captain
1057If you force your hair-style on me I will suicide :-*
1058
1059Oscar Salas
1060BCH.Captain
1061If you force your hair-style on me I will suicide :-*
1062On my what?
1063
1064Cameron Lee
1065lmao well then rip dude
1066
1067Oscar Salas
1068[? Sticker]
1069
1070Joey B. Whatever
1071Political philosophy are schools of thoughts that express ideal versions of how things would work in the purest way possible. In Ancap that is the absence of any kind of central governance, property ownership etc etc. Like communism though in reality you have to make compromises to make it to work. In the case of Soviet Russia they refused to move from their idealism and collapsed because reality hit them.
1072
1073In China, they were purists and killed loads of people until Deng came to realise they needed to compromise with reality, thus China became communism with capitalism and it works. (Not saying its good, but it works better than Russia or North Korea for example).
1074BCH.Captain
1075Haha... You would impose the hair!
1076Rule one in your little red book
1077
1078Cameron Lee
1079Joey B. Whatever
1080Like “everyone does as they please because they are free” but receive zero consequences for destroying the results of everyone e
1081Ripple solves this
1082Everyone in my fascist utopia will have forced braids
1083BCH.Captain
1084Joey B. Whatever
1085Political philosophy are schools of thoughts that express ideal versions of how things would work in the purest way possible. In
1086So china does communism well, by not being Communist.....
1087
1088Oscar Salas
1089BCH.Captain
1090It would simply be more peaceful and productive than the alternatives. It doesn't turn people in to angels
1091How does your ancap society works?
1092China is not communist
1093
1094Joey B. Whatever
1095BCH.Captain
1096So china does communism well, by not being Communist.....
1097Actually by letting certain things go that dont work in communism, price being one of those things.
1098
1099Oscar Salas
1100China is pretty much state controlled capitalism
1101
1102Joey B. Whatever
1103So ancap is no different, for ancap to work something has to be compromised with reality.
1104
1105MeansofExchange
1106Oscar Salas
1107Who is this
1108That's Andrea, he's the only BU dev that regularly attends the development meetings
1109BCH.Captain
1110Joey B. Whatever
1111So ancap is no different, for ancap to work something has to be compromised with reality.
1112Like what? There are two simple requirements....
1113
1114Cameron Lee
1115Wait but I think this is a good conversation getting derailed. Tying these concepts to development is interesting
1116there are pros and cons to our “anything goes” culture and discussing them seems useful
1117
1118Oscar Salas
1119I think ancap won’t work because state won’t go off and they certainly have enough brainwashed soldiers to keep in power so yeah  state needs to make the first step and realize it’s not needed in order to do that people also need tools like bitcoin that descentralize state owned systems
1120
1121Marco:fish:#977
1122Cameron Lee
1123Wait but I think this is a good conversation getting derailed. Tying these concepts to development is interesting
1124:gem:
1125
1126SpiceBot
1127Marco:fish:#977 tipped 1,000 ? SPICE ? to Cameron Lee
1128BCH.Captain
1129Oscar Salas
1130I think ancap won’t work because state won’t go off and they certainly have enough brainwashed soldiers to keep in power so yeah
1131Exactly, just like cancer, it doesn't disappear on it's own and there is a lot of this cancer
1132But I am still against cancer
1133
1134MeansofExchange
1135Ancap does not presume no governance, it presumes voluntarist organization at the point of need
1136BCH.Captain
1137It does not mean there are no 'rules'..... Just no 'rulers'
1138
1139Oscar Salas
1140If ancaps want an ancap society we need to build more tools like bitcoin, and bitcoin being a decentralized protocolo with money incentives it’s a good start
1141It will take years tho
1142But it’s at least closer than ever
1143BCH.Captain
1144That is why I am here
1145
1146Cameron Lee
1147generations*
1148Andre Cabrera
1149ancap is just revolutionary nonsense, trying to change the power structure of judgement/punishment will never work.
1150however, making things harder to observe and attribute (i.e. hard to judge/punish if you dont know who did what) might bring actual free markets
1151BCH.Captain
1152People absolutely love the governments that are ruining them
1153Andre Cabrera
1154thus, cryptoanarchy > ancap
1155BCH.Captain
1156.... Ok.... Ancap is not against cryptography
1157
1158Cameron Lee
1159lol
1160
1161Joey B. Whatever
1162Oscar Salas
1163I think ancap won’t work because state won’t go off and they certainly have enough brainwashed soldiers to keep in power so yeah
1164Well it doesnt work in its purest form exactly the same reason why communism doesnt work in purest form, in reality people always fight and form nexuses with themselves on the top, or things remain in a state of war. What you can do though is compromise by making those nexuses accountable in some way, but what BU is doing for example is making sure a civil war happens.
1165If you just keep trying to deny this is the reality you will just end in ruin.
1166BCH.Captain
1167Joey, you are so enlightened
1168
1169Oscar Salas
1170Joey B. Whatever
1171Well it doesnt work in its purest form exactly the same reason why communism doesnt work in purest form, in reality people alway
1172Living in both capitalism and socialist societies I can tell people prefer to live off the state control. They just didn’t realize it yet, because for most people there’s just two options and they choose the counterpart everytime one side mess up
1173So imo (personal opinion) once there’s more tools to take power off the state to better systems people will choose that
1174
1175Joey B. Whatever
1176Oscar Salas
1177Living in both capitalism and socialist societies I can tell people prefer to live off the state control. They just didn’t reali
1178Only there is no example of somewhere without state control, just countries that compromise with reality better than others.
1179BCH.Captain
1180Also, people are poisoned by envy, even if it is at their own ruin
1181Joey B. Whatever
1182Only there is no example of somewhere without state control, just countries that compromise with reality better than others.
1183This is not an argument
1184
1185Joey B. Whatever
1186The most successful examples are the ones that do it without giving up the values of economic freedom.
1187BCH.Captain
1188See everyone has cancer.... Therefore you can't prove cancer is bad
1189
1190Joey B. Whatever
1191Would you say Japan is a failure? Because that has a very large government.
1192
1193MeansofExchange
1194Joey B. Whatever
1195Only there is no example of somewhere without state control, just countries that compromise with reality better than others.
1196The purest ancap community I ever witnessed was Silk Road circa 2011-2012
1197BCH.Captain
1198Japan would rule the world if they changed their policies to 1st on the 'economic freedom of the world index'
1199
1200Joey B. Whatever
1201MeansofExchange
1202The purest ancap community I ever witnessed was Silk Road circa 2011-2012
1203It had a central point of failure and central governance...
1204BCH.Captain
1205Yes, the cancer got them too
1206
1207MeansofExchange
1208Joey B. Whatever
1209It had a central point of failure and central governance...
1210I would argue against the second assertion
1211
1212Joey B. Whatever
1213HK is first in the economic freedom of the world index, it still has government
1214BCH.Captain
1215Joey B. Whatever
1216HK is first in the economic freedom of the world index, it still has government
1217Yes, that is why they have such prosperity considering their lack of resources
1218Don't worry though china is going to fix them
1219
1220Joey B. Whatever
1221BCH.Captain
1222Yes, that is why they have such prosperity considering their lack of resources
1223Yeah and society here still has a set of agreed goals and principles. BCH does not want even the slightest hint of cohesion.
1224BCH.Captain
1225Who doesn't want cohesion in BCH??????
1226Carl joined the group
1227
1228Combotadmin
1229Carl
1230joined the group
1231Welcome to the BCH GANG! This group is for discussion about Bitcoin (BCH), a peer-to-peer electronic cash system.
1232
1233Shilling ICOs and talk about "blockchain technology" will get you banned. Bitcoin Cash is crypto*currency*, not a get-rich-quick scheme for bagholders.
1234
1235Joey B. Whatever
1236BCH.Captain
1237Who doesn't want cohesion in BCH??????
1238Uhmm maybe u missed the first part of the conversation. This is about BU saying “ so be it” we will just do our own thing without regard to everyone else
1239BCH.Captain
1240You read that wrong
1241Andre Cabrera
1242even in ancap utopia there are possibilities of different organizational structures, this discussion is pointless lol
1243BCH.Captain
1244Yes, competition amongst methods of organization
1245Andre Cabrera
1246"so be it" is not an ancap approach, it is just reckless attitude when you are part of a community
1247BCH.Captain
1248Please try not use the word 'utopia' it is very innacurate
1249Andre Cabrera
1250if you are hardcore ancap and read hoppe, he talks a lot about covenant communities
1251
1252Joey B. Whatever
1253Yeah i think this is going off tangent. My point is Peter says he can do as he pleases because everyone should be able to make functional changes they want to the protocol. Im saying if they do that without considering or consulting everyone else who might get hurt by them they should be ostracised just like you would to someone who places a bomb in your house just because “they can”.
1254Andre Cabrera
1255if you are part of a community and there's a set of rules agreed upon by all of its members, if you deviate or break the rules you would be "physically removed"
1256the problem is that we dont have a set of rules
1257
1258Cameron Lee
1259Andre Cabrera
1260if you are hardcore ancap and read hoppe, he talks a lot about covenant communities
1261I prefer his discussions regarding helicopters
1262Andre Cabrera
1263he is funny to read
1264
1265Cameron Lee
1266Andre Cabrera
1267the problem is that we dont have a set of rules
1268Hopefully we get our shit together soon
1269
1270MeansofExchange
1271Cameron Lee
1272Hopefully we get our shit together soon
1273Yeah, some of us have money riding on this dumpster fire :grinning:
1274BCH.Captain
1275Joey, you attacked libertarianism with non-sense. You created the tangent
1276
1277Linzerd ?
1278MeansofExchange
1279Yeah, some of us have money riding on this dumpster fire :grinning:
1280This is the right attitude
1281
1282Joey B. Whatever
1283MeansofExchange
1284Yeah, some of us have money riding on this dumpster fire :grinning:
1285:fire::fire::fire:
1286
1287SpiceBot
1288Joey B. Whatever tipped 15 ? SPICE ? to MeansofExchange
1289
1290Joey B. Whatever
1291BCH.Captain
1292Joey, you attacked libertarianism with non-sense. You created the tangent
1293I didn’t attack libertarianism, i attacked the implications of what Peter was advocating for.
1294
1295Cameron Lee
1296I was thinking about this recently. MP3s revolutionized the music industry, but in the end Spotify and Apple won. Torrents has a huge impact on Movies, but in the end we got Netflix. Bitcoin has attacked the banks, but it doesn’t mean we’re not going to be beaten by a centralized corporate coin.
1297Andre Cabrera
1298well, torrents still exists, spotify might go bankrupt someday
1299
1300Cameron Lee
1301MeansofExchange
1302Yeah, some of us have money riding on this dumpster fire :grinning:
1303[? Sticker]
1304BCH.Captain
1305Cameron Lee
1306I was thinking about this recently. MP3s revolutionized the music industry, but in the end Spotify and Apple won. Torrents has a
1307Great points. All I know for sure is that government money is obsolete
1308Andre Cabrera
1309torrents and bitcoin cant go bankrupt
1310
1311Cameron Lee
1312Andre Cabrera
1313well, torrents still exists, spotify might go bankrupt someday
1314My idea is kinda half-cocked so I could totally be wrong.
1315
1316MeansofExchange
1317I for one welcome Zuckbucks into my heart and my home, I can't wait for Facebook to control my money
1318
1319Cameron Lee
1320Andre Cabrera
1321torrents and bitcoin cant go bankrupt
1322But as of now nobody says “torrent and chill”
1323BCH.Captain
1324The best money should win.... BCH has a strong chance
1325
1326Linzerd ?
1327Torrents and piracy fulfilled a role
1328Telling industry dicks to man up and offer valid options at a reasonable price
1329Andre Cabrera
1330yea but is just a fad, copyright is a shitshow, there will be others players in the market (disney etc) and to watch your favorite shows you would have to subscribe to 3213902 services
1331it is already happening: here ppl downloaded game of thrones episodes because HBO Go isnt cheap and is shit
1332
1333MeansofExchange
1334Andre Cabrera
1335yea but is just a fad, copyright is a shitshow, there will be others players in the market (disney etc) and to watch your favori
1336This, a good Kodi or Plex setup and no need for Netflix
1337
1338Joey B. Whatever
1339Cameron Lee
1340I was thinking about this recently. MP3s revolutionized the music industry, but in the end Spotify and Apple won. Torrents has a
1341Hard to beat things that have a profit stream and thats how it should be. If the entity was centralised but decentralised profit...if you advocate for things without a profit stream...
1342If you are using regulation to enforce the profit stream then thats a problem of centralisation imo eg Blockstream
1343But in business reality also its very hard to beat something charging a percentage over every transaction then putting that money back into marketing, user acquisition and reward schemes.
1344
1345Cameron Lee
1346I think Amaury is onto something using Linux as an example of a good open source model