eZbaE22K

1
2Sinfonia en Rojo Mayor chapter XL 
3X-RAY OF REVOLUTION 
4
5I returned to the laboratory. My nervous system bothered me and I prescribed myself 
6complete rest. I am in bed almost the whole day. Here I am quite alone for already four 
7days. Gabriel enquired about me every day. He has to reckon with my condition. At the 
8mere thought that they could again send me to the Lubianka (Moscow HQ of the secret 
9police) to be present at a new scene of terror I become excited and tremble. I am ashamed 
10
11of belonging to the human race. How low have people fallen! How low have I fallen! 
12
13* * * 
14
15These lines are all I was able to write after five days following my return from the 
16Lubianka, when trying to describe on paper the horror, and thereby interrupting the 
17chronological order of my notes. I could not write. Only after several months, when 
18Summer began, I was able calmly and simply to set out all that I had seen, disgusting, 
19vicious, evil... 
20
21During these past months I asked myself a thousand times the same question : "Who 
22were the people who were anonymously present at the torture?" I strained all my intuitive 
23and deductive capabilities. Was it Ezhov? It is possible, but I see no reason why he 
24should have concealed himself. Officially he is responsible and the fear which made him 
25hide does not lead to a logical explanation. Even more: if I have any reason for 
26describing myself as a psychologist, then this fanatic, the chief of the NKVD, with signs 
27of abnormality, would be certain to enjoy a criminal display. Such things as the 
28expression of haughtiness in front of a humbled enemy, who had been converted into a 
29wreck psychologically and physically, should have given him an unhealthy pleasure. I 
30analyzed still further. The absence of prior preparation was obvious; evidently the 
31decision to call this satanic session had been taken in a hurry. The circumstance that I had 
32been appointed to be present was the result of a sudden agreement. If Ezhov had been 
33able to chose the time freely, then timely preparations would have been made. And then I 
34would not have been called; that general of the NKVD who was hardly able to come in 
35time, for the purpose of being present at the torture, would have known about this 
36beforehand. If this was not Ezhov, then who had decided on the time? Which other chief 
37was able to arrange it all? However poor are my informations about the Soviet hierarchy, 
38but above Ezhov in affairs along the line of the NKVD there is only one man — Stalin. 
39Therefore it was he?. . . 
40
41Asking myself these questions, which arose from my deductions, I remembered yet 
42other facts in support of my opinion. I remembered that when I looked from the window 
43over the square a few minutes before we went down to the "spectacle" I saw how there 
44drove across it four large identical cars; all we Soviet people know that Stalin travels in a 
45caravan of identical machines, so that nobody would know in which he is sitting, to make 
46attack more difficult. Was he there?. . . 
47
48But here I came across another mystery: according to the details which Gabriel gave 
49me, the hidden observers were to sit behind our 
50
51
52
53back. But there I could only see a long mirror, through which nothing could be seen. 
54Perhaps it was transparent? I was puzzled. 
55
56
57
58Only seven days passed when one morning Gabriel appeared in the house. I found 
59that he had an energetic and enthusiastic appearance and was in an optimistic mood. Yet 
60these flashes of happiness which lit up his face at first, did not return later. It seemed as if 
61he wanted chase away the shadows which passed over his face by increased activity and 
62mental exertion. After lunch he told me: 
63
64"We have a guest here." 
65
66"Who is it" I asked. 
67
68"Rakovsky, the former Ambassador in Paris." 
69
70"I do not know him." 
71
72"He is one of those whom I pointed out to you on that night; the former Ambassador 
73in London and Paris. . . Of course a big friend of your acquaintance Navachin. . . Yes, this 
74man is at my disposal. He is here with us; he is being well treated and looked after. You 
75shall see him." 
76
77"I, why? You know well that I am not curious about matters of this kind. . . I would 
78ask you to spare me this sight; I am still not quite well after what you had forced me to 
79see. I cannot guarantee my nervous system and heart." 
80
81"Oh, do not worry. Now we are not concerned with force. This man has already been 
82broken. No blood, no force. It is only necessary to give him moderate doses of drugs. 
83Here I have brought you details: they are from Levin* who still serves us with his 
84knowledge. Apparently there is a certain drug somewhere in the laboratory, which can 
85work wonders." 
86
87"You believe all this?" 
88
89"I am speaking in symbolic form. Rakovsky is inclined to confess to everything he 
90knows about the matter. We have already had a preliminary talk with him, and the results 
91are not bad." 
92
93"In that case why is there a need for a miraculous drug?" 
94
95"You will see, doctor, you will see. This is a small safety measure, dictated by the 
96professional experience of Levin. It will help to achieve that our man being questioned 
97would feel optimistic and would not lose hope and faith. He can already see a chance of 
98saving his life as a long shot. This is the first effect which we must attain. Then we must 
99make sure that he would all the time remain in a state of the experience of the decisive 
100happy moment, but without losing his mental capacities; more exactly, it will be 
101necessary to stimulate and sharpen them. He must have induced in him a quite special 
102feeling. How can one express it? More exactly a condition of enlightened stimulation." 
103
104"Something like hypnosis?" 
105
106"Yes, but without sleepiness." 
107
108"And I must invent a drug for all this? I think you exaggerate my scientific talents. I 
109cannot achieve it." 
110
111
112
113Former NKVD doctor, was a co-defendant with Rakovsky at the trial. 
114
1154 
116
117
118
119"Yes, but it is unnecessary to invent anything, doctor. As for Levin, he asserts that the 
120problem has already been solved." 
121
122"He always left me with the impression of being something of a charlatan. . ." 
123
124"Probably yes, but I think that the drug he has mentioned, even if it is not as effective 
125as he claims, will still help us to achieve the necessary; after all, we need not expect a 
126miracle. Alcohol, against our will, makes us speak nonsense. Why cannot another 
127substance encourage us to say the reasonable truth? Apart from that, Levin had told me of 
128previous cases, which seem to be genuine." 
129
130"Why do you not want to force him to take part in this affair once more? Or will he 
131refuse to obey?" 
132
133"Oh no, he would like to. It is enough to want to save or to extend your life with the 
134help of this or another service, for not refusing. But it is I myself who does not want to 
135use his services. He must not hear anything of that which Rakovsky will tell me. Not he, 
136not anyone..." 
137
138"Therefore I..." 
139
140"You — that is another matter, doctor. You are a deeply decent person. But I am not 
141Diogenes, to rush to look for another over the snowy distances of the USSR." 
142
143"Thank you, but I think that my honesty. . ." 
144
145"Yes, doctor, yes; you say that we take advantage of your honesty for various 
146depravities. Yes, doctor, that is so. . .; but it is only so from your absurd point of view. 
147And who is attracted to-day by absurdities? For example such an absurdity as your 
148honesty? You always manage to lead one away towards conversation about most 
149attractive things. But what, in fact, will take place? You must only help me to give the 
150correct doses of Levin's drug. It would appear that in the dosage there is an invisible line 
151which divides sleep from a state of activity, a clear condition from a befogged one, good 
152sense from nonsense...; there can come an artificial excessive enthusiasm." 
153
154"If that is all..." 
155
156"And yet something else. Now we shall speak seriously. Study the instructions of 
157Levin, weigh them, adapt them reasonably to the condition and strength of the prisoner. 
158You have time for study until nightfall; you can examine Rakovsky as often as you wish. 
159And that is all for the moment. You would not believe how terribly I want to sleep. I shall 
160sleep a few hours. If by evening nothing extraordinary happens then I have given 
161instructions that I am not to be called. I would advise you to have a good rest after dinner, 
162because after that it will not be possible to sleep for a long time." 
163
164We entered the vestibule. Having taken his leave from me he quickly ran up the 
165stairs, but in the middle he halted. 
166
167"Ah, doctor - he exclaimed - I had forgotten. Many thanks from Comrade Ezhov. 
168Expect a present, perhaps even a decoration." 
169
170He waved me goodbye and rapidly disappeared on the staircase landing of the top 
171floor. 
172
173
174
175The notes of Levin were short, but clear and exact. I had no difficulty in finding the 
176medicine. It was in doses of a milligram in 
177
178
179
180tiny tablets. I made a test and, in accordance with his explanation, they dissolved very 
181easily in water and better still in alcohol. The formula was not indicated there, and I 
182decided later to make a detailed analysis, when I shall have the time. 
183
184Undoubtedly it was some substance of the specialist Lumenstadt, that scientist of 
185whom Levin had spoken to me during the first meeting. I did not think I would discover 
186during analysis something unexpected or new. Probably again some base with a 
187considerable amount of opium of a more active kind than tebain. I was well acquainted 
188with 19 main types and some more besides. In those practical conditions in which my 
189experiments were conducted I was satisfied with those facts which my investigations had 
190yielded. 
191
192Although my work had an altogether different direction, yet I was quite at home in 
193the realm of hallucinatory substances. I remembered that Levin had told me of the 
194distillation of rare types of Indian Hemp. I was bound to be dealing with opium or 
195hashish, in order to penetrate the secret of this much praised drug. I would have been glad 
196to have had the opportunity of coming across one or more new bases which gave rise to 
197his "miraculous" qualities. In principle I was prepared to assume such a possibility. After 
198all the work of investigation in conditions of unlimited time and means, while not having 
199to reckon with economic limitations, which was possible in conditions of the NKVD, 
200provided unlimited scientific possibilities. I flattered myself with the illusion of being 
201able to find, as the result of these investigations, a new weapon in my scientific fight 
202against pain. 
203
204I could not give much time to the diversion of such pleasant illusions. I concentrated 
205my thoughts in order to think how and in what proportion I shall have to give Rakovsky 
206this drug. According to the instructions of Levin, one tablet would have to produce the 
207desired result. He warned that if the patient had any heart weakness there could follow 
208sleepiness and even complete lethargy, with a consequent dimming of the mind. While 
209bearing all this in mind, I had first of all to examine Rakovsky. I did not expect to find 
210the internal condition of his heart to be normal. If there were no damage, then surely 
211there would be a lowering of tone as the result of the nervous experiences, as his system 
212could not have remained unchanged after a long and terrifying torture. 
213
214I put off the examination until after lunch. I wanted to consider everything, both for 
215the case that Gabriel would want to give the drug with the knowledge of Rakovsky, as 
216also without his knowledge. In both cases I would have to busy myself with him, insofar 
217as I myself would have to give him the drug of which I had been told concretely. There 
218was no need for the participation of a professional, as the drug was given by mouth. 
219
220After lunch I went to visit Rakovsky. He was kept locked up in one room of the 
221ground floor and was guarded by one man, who did not take his eyes off him. Of 
222furniture there was only one small table, a narrow bed without ends and another small, 
223rough table. When I entered Rakovsky was sitting. He immediately got up. He looked at 
224me closely and I read in his face doubt and, it seemed, also fright. I think he must have 
225recognized me, having seen me when he sat that memorable night at the side of the 
226generals. 
227
228I ordered the guard to leave and told him to bring me a chair. 
229
230
231
232I sat down and asked the prisoner to sit. He was about 50 years old. He was a man of 
233medium height, bald in front, with a large, fleshy nose. In youth his face was probably 
234pleasant. His facial outlines were not typically Semitic, but his origin was nevertheless 
235clear. Once upon a time he was probably quite fat, but not now, and his skin hung 
236everywhere, while his face and neck were like a burst balloon, with the air let out. The 
237usual dinner at the Lubianka was apparently too strict a diet for the former Ambassador 
238in Paris. At that moment I made no further observations. 
239
240"You smoke?" I asked, opening the cigarette case, with the intention of establishing 
241somewhat more intimate relations with him. 
242
243"I gave up smoking in order to preserve my health" he replied with a very pleasant 
244tone of voice, "but I thank you; I think I have now recovered from my stomach troubles." 
245
246He smoked quietly, with restraint and not without some elegance. 
247
248"I am a doctor" I introduced myself. 
249
250"Yes I know that; I saw how you acted 'there' " he said with trembling voice. 
251
252"I came to enquire about the state of your health. How are you ? Do you suffer from 
253any illness?" 
254
255"No, nothing." 
256
257"Are you sure? What about your heart?" 
258
259"Thanks to the results of enforced dieting I do not observe in myself any abnormal 
260symptoms." 
261
262"There are some which cannot be noticed by the patient himself, but only by a 
263doctor." 
264
265"I am a doctor" he interrupted me. 
266
267"A doctor?" I repeated in surprise. 
268
269"Yes, didn't you know?" 
270
271"Nobody had told me of it. I congratulate you. I shall be very glad to be of use to a 
272colleague and, possibly, a fellow student. Where did you study? In Moscow or 
273Petrograd?" 
274
275"Oh no! At that time I was not a Russian subject. I studied in Nancy and Montpellier; 
276in the latter I received my doctorate." 
277
278"This means that we may have studied at the same time; I did several courses in Paris. 
279Were you French?" 
280
281"I intended to become French. I was born a Bulgarian, but without asking my 
282permission I was converted into a Rumanian. My province was Dobrudga, where I was 
283born, and after the peace treaty it went to Rumania." 
284
285"Permit me to listen to your chest" — and I put the stethoscope in my ears. 
286
287He took off his torn jacket and stood up. I listened. The examination shewed nothing 
288abnormal; as I had assumed, weakness, but without defects. 
289
290"I suppose one must give food for the heart." 
291
292"Only the heart, comrade?" he asked ironically. 
293
294
295
296"I think so" I said, pretending not to have noticed the irony, "I think your diet, too, 
297should be strengthened." 
298
299"Permit me to listen to myself." 
300
301"With pleasure" — and I gave him the stethoscope. 
302
303He quickly listened to himself. 
304
305"I had expected that my condition would be much worse. Many thanks. May I put my 
306jacket on?" 
307
308"Of course. Let us agree, then, that it is necessary to take a few drops of digitalis, 
309don't you think?" 
310
311"You consider that absolutely essential? I think that my old heart will survive the few 
312days or months which remain to me quite well." 
313
314"I think otherwise; I think that you will live much longer." 
315
316"Do not upset me, colleague. . . To live more! To live still longer! . . . There must be 
317instructions about the end; the court case cannot last longer... And then, then rest." 
318
319And when he said this, having in mind the final rest, it seemed that his face had the 
320expression of happiness almost. I shuddered. This wish to die, to die soon which I read in 
321his eyes, made me faint. I wanted to cheer him up from a feeling of compassion. 
322
323"You have not understood me, comrade. I wanted to say that in your case it may be 
324decided to continue your life, but life without suffering. For what have you been brought 
325here? Does one not treat you well now?" 
326
327"The latter, yes, of course. Concerning the rest I have heard hints, but..." 
328
329I gave him another cigarette and then added: 
330
331"Have hope. For my part and to the extent which my chief will allow, I shall do 
332everything that can depend on me, to make sure that you come to no harm. I shall begin 
333immediately by feeding you, but not excessively, bearing in mind the state of your 
334stomach. We shall begin with a milk diet and some more substantial additions. I shall 
335give instructions at once. You may smoke. . . take some. . . " and I left him everything that 
336remained in the packet. 
337
338I called the guard and ordered him to light the prisoner's cigarette whenever he wants 
339to smoke. Then I left and before having a couple of hours rest I gave instructions that 
340Rakovsky was to have half a litre of milk with sugar. 
341
342
343
344We prepared for the meeting with Rakovsky at midnight. Its "friendly" character was 
345stressed in all the details. The room was well warmed, there was a fire in the fire-place, 
346soft lighting, a small and well-chosen supper, good wines; all had been scientifically 
347improvised. "As for a lovers meeting," observed Gabriel. I was to assist. My chief 
348responsibility was to give the prisoner the drug in such a manner that he would not notice 
349it. For this purpose the drinks had been placed as if by chance near me, and I shall have 
350to pour out the wine. Also I would have to observe the weakening of the drug's effect, so 
351as to give a new dose at the right moment. This was my most important job. Gabriel 
352wants, if the experiment succeeds, to get already at the first meeting real 
353
354
355
356progress towards the essence of the matter. He is hopeful of success. He has had a good 
357rest and is in good condition. I am interested to know how he will struggle with 
358Rakovsky who, it seems to me, is an opponent worthy of him. 
359
360Three large arm-chairs were placed before the fire. The one nearest the door is for 
361me, Rakovsky will sit in the middle, and in the third will be Gabriel, who had shown his 
362optimistic mood even in his clothes, as he was wearing a white Russian shirt. 
363
364It had already struck midnight when they brought the prisoner to us. He had been 
365given decent clothes and had been well shaved. I looked at him professionally and found 
366him to be livelier. 
367
368He asks to be excused for not being able to drink more than one glass, mentioning the 
369weakness of his stomach. I did not put the drug into this glass and regretted it. 
370
371The conversation began with banalities... Gabriel knows that Rakovsky speaks much 
372better French than Russian and begins in that language. There are hints about the past. It 
373is clear that Rakovsky is an expert conversationalist. His speech is exact, elegant and 
374even decorative. He is apparently very erudite; at times he quotes easily and always 
375accurately. Sometimes he hints at his many escapes, at exile, about Lenin, Plekhanov, 
376Luxemburg, and he even said that when he was a boy he had shaken the hand of the old 
377Engels. 
378
379We drink whisky. After Gabriel had given him the opportunity of speaking for about 
380half an hour, I asked as if by chance: "Should I add more soda water?" "Yes, add 
381enough" he replied absentmindedly. I manipulated the drink and dropped a tablet into it, 
382which I had been holding from the very beginning. First I gave Gabriel some whisky, 
383letting him know by a sign that the job had been done. I gave Rakovsky his glass and 
384then began to drink mine. He sipped it with pleasure. "I am a small cad" I told myself. 
385But this was a passing thought and it dissolved in the pleasant fire in the fire-place. 
386
387Before Gabriel came to the main theme, the talk had been long and interesting. 
388
389I had been fortunate in obtaining a document which reproduces better than a 
390shorthand note all that had been discussed between Gabriel and Rakovsky. Here it is: 
391
392
393
394INFORMATION 
395
396THE QUESTIONING OF THE ACCUSED CHRISTIAN GEORGIEVITCH 
397RAKOVSKY BY GAVRIIL GAVRIILOVITCH KUS'MIN ON THE 26TH JANUARY, 
3981938. 
399
400Gavriil G. Kus'min — In accordance with our agreement at the Lubianka, I had 
401appealed for a last chance for you; your presence in this house indicates that I had 
402succeeded in this. Let us see if you will not deceive us. 
403
404Christian G. Rakovsky — I do not wish and shall not do that. 
405
406G - But first of all: a well-meant warning. Now we are concerned with the real 
407truth. Not the "official" truth, that which is to figure at the trial in the light of the 
408confessions of the accused. . . This is something which, as you know, is fully subject to 
409practical considerations, or "considerations of State" as they would say in the West. The 
410
411
412
413demands of international politics will force us to hide the whole truth, the "real truth". . . 
414Whatever may be the course of the trial, but governments and peoples will only be told 
415that which they should know. But he who must know everything, Stalin, must also know 
416all this. Therefore, whatever may be your words here they cannot make your position 
417worse. You must know that they will not worsen your crime but, on the contrary, they 
418can give the desired results in your favour. You will be able to save your life, which at 
419this moment is already lost. So now I have told you this, but now let us see: you will all 
420admit that you are Hitler's spies and receive wages from the Gestapo and OKW.* 
421
422Is that not so? 
423
424R-Yes. 
425
426G - And you are Hitler's spies? 
427
428R-Yes. 
429
430G - No, Rakovsky, no. Tell the real truth, but not the court proceedings one. 
431
432R - We are not spies of Hitler, we hate Hitler as you can hate him, as Stalin can 
433hate him; perhaps even more so, but this is a very complex question. 
434
435G - I shall help you. . . By chance I also know one or two things. You, the 
436Trotskyists, had contacts with the German Staff. Is that not so ? 
437
438R-Yes. 
439
440G - From which period? 
441
442R - I do not know the exact date, but soon after the fall of Trotsky. Of course before 
443Hitler's coming to power. 
444
445G - Therefore let us be exact: you were neither personal spies of Hitler, nor of his 
446regime. 
447
448R - Exactly. We were such already earlier. 
449
450G - And for what purpose? With the aim of giving Germany victory and some 
451Russian territories? 
452
453R - No, in no case. 
454
455G - Therefore as ordinary spies, for money? 
456
457R - For money? Nobody received a single Mark from Germany. Hitler has not 
458enough money to buy, for example, the Commissar for Foreign Affairs of the USSR, who 
459has at his disposal freely a budget which is greater than the total wealth of Morgan and 
460Vanderbilt, and who does not have to account for his use of the money. 
461
462G - Well, then for what reason? 
463
464R - May I speak quite freely? 
465
466G - Yes, I ask you to do so; for that reason you have been invited. 
467
468R - Did not Lenin have higher aims when he received help from Germany in order 
469to enter Russia? And is it necessary to accept as true those libelous inventions which had 
470been circulated to accuse him? Was he not also called a spy of the Kaiser? His relations 
471with the Emperor and the German intervention in the affair of the sending to Russia of 
472the Bolshevik destroyers are quite clear. 
473
474
475
476OKW — Oberkommando der Wehrmacht, Supreme Command of the German Army — Transl. 
477
47810 
479
480
481
482G - Whether it is true or not does not have any bearing on the present question. 
483
484R - No, permit me to finish. Is it not a fact that the activity of Lenin was in the 
485beginning advantageous to the German troops? Permit me... There was the separate 
486peace of Brest-Litovsk, at which huge territories of the USSR were ceded to Germany. 
487Who had declared defeatism as a weapon of the Bolsheviks in 1913? Lenin. I know by 
488heart his words from his letter to Gorky: "War between Austria and Russia would be a 
489most useful thing for the revolution, but it is hardly possible that Francis-Joseph and 
490Nicholas would present us with this opportunity." As you see, we, the so-called 
491Trotskyists, the inventors of the defeat in 1905, continue at the present stage the same 
492line, the line of Lenin. 
493
494G - With a small difference, Rakovsky; at present there is Socialism in the USSR, 
495not the Tsar. 
496
497R - You believe that? 
498
499G - What? 
500
501R - In the existence of Socialism in the USSR? 
502
503G - Is the Soviet Union not Socialist? 
504
505R - For me only in name. It is just here that we find the true reason for the 
506opposition. Agree with me, and by the force of pure logic you must agree, that 
507theoretically, rationally, we have the same right to say - no, as Stalin can say - yes. And 
508if for the triumph of Communism defeatism can be justified, then he who considers that 
509Communism has been destroyed by the Bonapartism of Stalin and that he betrayed it, has 
510the same right as Lenin to become a defeatist. 
511
512G - I think, Rakovsky, that you are theorizing thanks to your manner of making 
513wide use of dialectics. It is clear that if many people were present here, I would prove 
514this; all right, I accept your argument as the only one possible in your position, but 
515nevertheless I think that I could prove to you that this is nothing other than a sophism. 
516But let us postpone this for another occasion; some day it will come. And I hope that you 
517will give me the chance to reply. But at the present moment I shall only say this: if your 
518defeatism and the defeat of the USSR has as its object the restoration of Socialism in the 
519USSR, real Socialism, according to you — Trotskyism, then, insofar as we have 
520destroyed their leaders and cadres, defeatism and the defeat of the USSR has neither an 
521objective nor any sense. As a result of defeat now there would come the enthronement of 
522some Fiihrer or fascist Tsar. Is that not so? 
523
524R - It is true. Without flattery on my part — your deduction is splendid. 
525
526G - Well, if, as I assume, you assert this sincerely, then we have achieved a great 
527deal: I am a Stalinist and you a Trotskyist; we have achieved the impossible. We have 
528reached the point at which our views coincide. The coincidence lies in that at the present 
529moment the USSR must not be destroyed. 
530
531R - I must confess that I had not expected to face such a clever person. In fact at the 
532present stage and for some years we cannot think of the defeat of the USSR and to 
533provoke it, as it is known that we are at present in such a position, that we can not seize 
534power. We, the Communists, would derive no profit from it. This is exact and coincides 
535
536
537
53811 
539
540
541
542with your view. We can not be interested now in the collapse of the Stalinist State; I say 
543this and at the same time I assert that this State, apart from all that has been said, is anti- 
544Communistic. You see that I am sincere. 
545
546G - I see that. This is the only way in which we can come to terms. I would ask 
547you, before you continue, to explain to me that which seems to me a contradiction: if the 
548Soviet State is anti-Communistic to you, then why should you not wish its destruction at 
549the given moment? Someone else might be less anti-Communistic and then there would 
550be fewer obstacles to the restoration of your pure Communism. 
551
552R - No, no, this deduction is too simple. Although the Stalinist Bonapartism also 
553opposes Communism as the Napoleonic one opposed the revolution, but the circumstance 
554is clear that, nevertheless, the USSR continues to preserve its Communistic form and 
555dogma; this is formal and not real Communism. And thus, like the disappearance of 
556Trotsky gave Stalin the possibility automatically to transform real Communism into the 
557formal one, so also the disappearance of Stalin will allow us to transform his formal 
558Communism into a real one. One hour would suffice for us. Have you understood me? 
559
560G - Yes, of course; you have told us the classical truth that nobody destroys that 
561which he wants to inherit. Well, all right; all else is sophistical agility. You rely on the 
562assumption which can be easily disproved: the assumption of Stalin's anti-Communism. 
563Is there private property in the USSR? Is there personal profit? Classes? I shall not 
564continue to base myself on facts — for what? 
565
566R - I have already agreed that there exists formal Communism. All that you 
567enumerate are merely forms. 
568
569G - Yes? For what purpose? From mere obstinacy? 
570
571R - Of course not. This is a necessity. It is impossible to eliminate the materialistic 
572evolution of history. The most that can be done is to hold it up. And at what a price? At 
573the cost of its theoretical acceptance, in order to destroy it in practice. The force which 
574draws humanity towards Communism is so unconquerable that that same force, but 
575distorted, opposed to itself, can only achieve a slowing down of development; more 
576accurately — to slow down the progress of the permanent revolution. 
577
578G - An example? 
579
580R - The most obvious — with Hitler. He needed Socialism for victory over 
581Socialism: it is this his very anti-Socialist Socialism which is National-Socialism. Stalin 
582needs Communism in order to defeat Communism. The parallel is obvious. But, 
583notwithstanding Hitler's anti-Socialism and Stalin's anti-Communism, both, to their 
584regret and against their will, transcendentally create Socialism and Communism...; they 
585and many others. Whether they want it or not, whether they know it or not, but they 
586create formal Socialism and Communism, which we, the Communist-Marxists, must 
587inevitably inherit. 
588
589G - Inheritance? Who inherits? Trotskyism is completely liquidated. 
590
591R - Although you say so, you do not believe it. However great may be the 
592liquidations, we Communists will survive them. The long arm of 
593
594
595
59612 
597
598
599
600Stalin and his police cannot reach all Communists. 
601
602G - Rakovsky, I ask you, and if necessary command, to refrain from offensive 
603hints. Do not go too far in taking advantage of your "diplomatic immunity." 
604
605R - Do I have credentials? Whose ambassador am I? 
606
607G - Precisely of that unreachable Trotskyism, if we agree to call him so. 
608
609R - I cannot be a diplomat of Trotskyism, of which you hint. I have not been given 
610that right to represent it, and I have not taken this role on myself. You have given it to 
611me. 
612
613G - I begin to trust you. I take note in your favour that at my hint about this 
614Trotskyism you did not deny it. This is already a good beginning. 
615
616R - But how can I deny it? After all, I myself mentioned it. 
617
618G - Insofar as we have recognized the existence of this special Trotskyism by our 
619mutual arrangement, I want you to give definite facts, which are necessary for the 
620investigation of the given coincidence. 
621
622R - Yes, I shall be able to mention that which you consider necessary to know and I 
623shall do it on my own initiative, but I shall not be able to assert that this is always the 
624thinking also of "Them." 
625
626G - Yes, I shall look on it like that. 
627
628R - We agreed that at the present moment the opposition cannot be interested in 
629defeatism and the fall of Stalin, insofar as we do not have the physical possibility of 
630taking his place. This is what we both agree. At present this is an incontrovertible fact. 
631However, there is in existence a possible aggressor. There he is, that great nihilist Hitler, 
632who is aiming with his terrible weapon of the Wehrmacht at the whole horizon. Whether 
633we want it or not, but he will use it against the USSR? Let us agree that for us this is the 
634decisive unknown fact or, do you consider that the problem has been correctly stated? 
635
636G - It has been well put. But I can say that for me there is no unknown factor. I 
637consider the attack of Hitler on the USSR to be inevitable. 
638
639R - Why? 
640
641G - Very simple; because he who controls it is inclined towards attack. Hitler is 
642only the condottiere of international Capitalism. 
643
644R - I agree that there is a danger, but from that to the assumption on this ground of 
645the inevitability of his attack on the USSR — there is a whole abyss. 
646
647G - The attack on the USSR is determined by the very essence of Fascism. In 
648addition he is impelled towards it by all those Capitalist States which had allowed him to 
649re-arm and to take all the necessary economic and strategic bases. This is quite obvious. 
650
651R - You forget something very important. The re-armament of Hitler and the 
652assistance he received at the present time from the Versailles nations (take good note of 
653this) — were received by him during a special period, when we could still have become 
654the heirs of Stalin in the case of his defeat, when the opposition still existed. . . Do you 
655consider this fact to be a matter of chance or only a coincidence in time? 
656
657
658
65913 
660
661
662
663G - I do not see any connexion between the permission of the Versailles Powers of 
664German re-armament and the existence of the opposition. . . The trajectory of Hitlerism is 
665in itself clear and logical. The attack on the USSR was part of his programme already a 
666long time ago. The destruction of Communism and expansion in the East — these are 
667dogmas from the book "Mein Kampf," that Talmud of National-Socialism. . ., but that 
668your defeatists wanted to take advantage of this threat to the USSR that is, of course, in 
669accordance with your train of thought. 
670
671R - Yes, at a first glance this appears to be natural and logical, too logical and 
672natural for the truth. 
673
674G - To prevent this happening, so that Hitler would not attack us, we would have to 
675entrust ourselves to an alliance with France. . ., but that would be a naivete. It would mean 
676that we believe that Capitalism would be willing to make sacrifices for the sake of saving 
677Communism. 
678
679R - If we shall continue the discussion only on the foundation of those conceptions 
680which apply for use at mass meetings, then you are quite right. But if you are sincere in 
681saying this then, forgive me, I am disappointed; I had thought that the politics of the 
682famous Stalinist police stand on a higher level. 
683
684G - The Hitlerist attack on the USSR is, in addition, a dialectical necessity; it is the 
685same as the inevitable struggle of the classes in the international plane. At the side of 
686Hitler, inevitably, there will stand the whole global Capitalism. 
687
688R - And so, believe me, that in the light of your scholastic dialectics, I have formed 
689a very negative opinion about the political culture of Stalinism. I listen to your words as 
690Einstein could listen to a schoolboy talking about physics in four dimensions. I see that 
691you are only acquainted with elementary Marxism, i.e. with the demagogic, popular one. 
692
693G - If your explanation will not be too long and involved, I should be grateful to 
694you for some explanation of this "relativity" or "quantum" of Marxism. 
695
696R - Here there is no irony; I am speaking with the best intentions. . . In this same 
697elementary Marxism, which is taught even in your Stalinist University, you can find the 
698statement which contradicts the whole of your thesis about the inevitability of the 
699Hitlerist attack on the USSR. You are also taught that the cornerstone of Marxism is the 
700assertion that, supposedly, contradictions are the incurable and fatal illness of 
701Capitalism. . . Is that not so? 
702
703G - Yes, of course. 
704
705R - But if things are in fact such that we accuse Capitalism of being imbued with 
706continuous Capitalistic contradictions in the sphere of economics, then why should it 
707necessarily suffer from them also in politics? The political and economic is of no 
708importance in itself; this is a condition or measurement of the social essence, but 
709contradictions arise in the social sphere, and are reflected simultaneously in the economic 
710or political ones, or in both at the same time. It would be absurd to assume fallibility in 
711economics and simultaneously infallibility in 
712
713
714
71514 
716
717
718
719politics — which is something essential in order that an attack on the USSR should 
720become inevitable - according to your postulate - absolutely essential. 
721
722G - This means that you rely in everything on the contradictions, fatality and 
723inevitability of the errors which must be committed by the bourgeoisie, which will hinder 
724Hitler from attacking the USSR. I am a Marxist, Rakovsky, but here, between ourselves, 
725in order not to provide the pretext for anger to a single activist, I say to you that with all 
726my faith in Marx I would not believe that the USSR exists thanks to the mistakes of its 
727enemies. . . And I think that Stalin shares the same view. 
728
729R - But I do think so. . . Do not look at me like that, as I am not joking and am not 
730mad. 
731
732G - Permit me at least to doubt it, until you will have proved your assertions. 
733
734R - Do you now see that I had reasons for qualifying your Marxist culture as being 
735doubtful? Your arguments and reactions are the same as any rank and file activist. 
736
737G - And they are wrong? 
738
739R - Yes, they are correct for a small administrator, for a bureaucrat and for the 
740mass. They suit the average fighter... They must believe this and repeat everything as it 
741has been written. Listen to me by way of the completely confidential. With Marxism you 
742get the same results as with the ancient esoteric religions. Their adherents had to know 
743only that which was the most elementary and crude, insofar as by this one provoked their 
744faith, i.e. that which is absolutely essential, both in religion and in the work of revolution. 
745
746G - Do you not now want to open up to me the mystical Marxism, something like 
747yet another freemasonry? 
748
749R - No, no esoterics. On the contrary, I shall explain it with the maximal clarity. 
750Marxism, before being a philosophical, economic and political system, is a conspiracy for 
751the revolution. And as for us the revolution is the only absolute reality, it follows that 
752philosophy, economics and politics are true only insofar as they lead to revolution. The 
753fundamental truth (let us call it subjective) does not exist in economics, politics or even 
754morals: in the light of scientific abstraction it is either truth or error, but for us, who are 
755subject to revolutionary dialectic, it is only truth. And insofar as to us, who are subject to 
756revolutionary dialectic, it is only truth, and therefore the sole truth, then it must be such 
757for all that is revolutionary, and such it was to Marx. In accordance with this we must act. 
758Remember the phrase of Lenin, in reply to someone who demonstrated by way of 
759argument that, supposedly, his intention contradicted reality: "I feel it to be real" was his 
760answer. Do you not think that Lenin spoke nonsense? No, for him every reality; every 
761truth was relative in the face of the sole and absolute one: the revolution. Marx was a 
762genius. If his works had amounted to only the deep criticism of Capitalism, then even that 
763would have been an unsurpassed scientific work; but in those places where his writing 
764reaches the level of mastery, there comes the effect of an apparently ironical work. 
765"Communism" he says "must win because Capital will give it that victory, though its 
766enemy." Such is the magisterial thesis of Marx... 
767
768
769
77015 
771
772
773
774Can there be a greater irony? And then, in order that he should be believed, it was enough 
775for him to depersonalize Capitalism and Communism, having transformed the human 
776individual into a consciously thinking individual, which he did with the extraordinary 
777talent of a juggler. Such was his sly method, in order to demonstrate to the Capitalists 
778that they are a reality of Capitalism and that Communism can triumph as the result of 
779inborn idiocy; since without the presence of immortal idiocy in homo economico there 
780could not appear in him continuous contradictions as proclaimed by Marx. To be able to 
781achieve the transformation of homo sapiens into homo stultum is to possess magical 
782force, capable of bringing man down to the first stage of the zoological ladder, i.e. to the 
783level of the animal. Only if there is homo stultum in the epoch of the apogee of 
784Capitalism could Marx formulate his axiomatic proposition: contradictions plus time 
785equal Communism. Believe me, when we who are initiated into this, contemplate the 
786representation of Marx, for example the one which is placed above the main entrance to 
787the Lubianka, then we cannot prevent the inner explosion of laughter by which Marx had 
788infected us; we see how he laughs into his beard at all humanity. 
789
790G - And you are still capable of laughing at the most revered scientist of the epoch? 
791
792R - Ridicule, me?. . . This is the highest admiration! In order that Marx should be 
793able to deceive so many people of science, it was essential that he should tower above 
794them all. Well: in order to have judgments about Marx in all his greatness, we must 
795consider the real Marx, Marx the revolutionary, Marx, judged by his manifesto. This 
796means Marx the conspirator, as during his life the revolution was in a condition of 
797conspiracy. It is not for nothing that the revolution is indebted for its development and its 
798recent victories to these conspirators. 
799
800G - Therefore you deny the existence of the dialectical process of contradictions in 
801Capitalism, which lead to the final triumph of Communism ? 
802
803R - You can be sure that if Marx believed that Communism will achieve victory 
804only thanks to the contradictions in Capitalism, then he would not have once, never, 
805mentioned the contradictions on the thousands of pages of his scientific revolutionary 
806work. Such was the categorical imperative of the realistic nature of Marx: not the 
807scientific, but the revolutionary one. The revolutionary and conspirator will never 
808disclose to his opponent the secret of his triumph. . . He would never give the information; 
809he would give him disinformation which you use in counter-conspiracy. Is that not so? 
810
811G - However, in the end we have reached the conclusion (according to you) that 
812there are no contradictions in Capitalism, and if Marx speaks of them then it is only a 
813revolutionary-strategic method. That is so? But the colossal and ever-growing 
814contradictions in Capitalism are there to see. And so we get the conclusion that Marx, 
815having lied, spoke the truth. 
816
817R - You are dangerous as a dialectician, when you destroy the brakes of scholastic 
818dogmatism and give free rein to your own inventiveness. So it is, that Marx spoke the 
819truth when he lied. He lied when he led into error, having defined the contradictions as 
820being "continuous" in the history of the economics of capital and called them "natural 
821and 
822
823
824
82516 
826
827
828
829inevitable," but at the same time he stated the truth because he knew that the 
830contradictions would be created and would grow in an increasing progression until they 
831reach their apogee. 
832
833G - This means that with you there is an antithesis? 
834
835R - There is no antithesis here. Marx deceives for tactical reasons about the origin 
836of the contradictions in Capitalism, but not about their obvious reality. Marx knew how 
837they were created, how they became more acute and how things went towards general 
838anarchy in Capitalistic production, which came before the triumph of the Communist 
839revolution. . . He knew it would happen because he knew those who created the 
840contradictions. 
841
842G - It is a very strange revelation and piece of news, this assertion and exposal of 
843the circumstance that that which leads Capitalism to its "suicide," by the well-chosen 
844expression of the bourgeois economist Schmalenbach, in support of Marx, is not the 
845essence and inborn law of Capitalism. But I am interested to know if we will reach the 
846personal by this path? 
847
848R - Have you not felt this intuitively? Have you not noticed how in Marx words 
849contradict deeds? He declares the necessity and inevitability of Capitalist contradictions, 
850proving the existence of surplus value and accumulation, i.e. he proves that which really 
851exists. He nimbly invents the proposition that to a greater concentration of the means of 
852production corresponds a greater mass of the proletariat, a greater force for the building 
853of Communism, is that not so? Now go on: at the same time as this assertion he founds 
854the International. Yet the International is, in the work of the daily struggle of the classes, 
855a "reformist," i.e. an organization whose purpose is the limitation of the surplus value 
856and, where possible, its elimination. For this reason, objectively, the International is a 
857counter-revolutionary organization and anti-Communist, in accordance with Marx's 
858theory. 
859
860G - Now we get that Marx is a counter-revolutionary and an anti-Communist. 
861
862R - Well, now you see how one can make use of the original Marxist culture. It is 
863only possible to describe the International as being counter-revolutionary and anti- 
864Communist, with logical and scientific exactness, if one does not see in the facts anything 
865more than the directly visible result, and in the texts only the letter. One comes to such 
866absurd conclusions, while they seem to be obvious, when one forgets that words and facts 
867in Marxism are subject to strict rules of the higher science: the rules of conspiracy and 
868revolution. 
869
870G - Will we ever reach the final conclusions? 
871
872R - In a moment. If the class struggle, in the economic sphere, turns out to be 
873reformist in the light of its first results, and for that reason contradicts the theoretical 
874presuppositions, which determine the establishment of Communism, then it is, in its real 
875and true meaning, purely revolutionary. But I repeat again: it is subject to the rules of 
876conspiracy, that means to masking and the hiding of its true aims. . . The limitation of the 
877surplus value and thus also of accumulations as the consequence of the class struggle — 
878that is only a matter of appearances, an illusion, in order to stimulate the basic 
879revolutionary movement in the masses. A strike is already an attempt at revolutionary 
880mobiliz- 
881
882
883
88417 
885
886
887
888ation. Independently of whether it wins or not, its economic effect is anarchical. As a 
889result this method for the improvement of the economic position of one class brings 
890about the impoverishment of the economy in general; whatever may be the scale and 
891results of the strike, it will always bring about a reduction of production. The general 
892result: more poverty, which the working class cannot shake off. That is already 
893something. But that is not the only result and not the most important one. As we know, 
894the only aim of any struggle in the economic sphere is to earn more and work less. Such 
895is the economic absurdity, but according to our terminology, such is the contradiction, 
896which has not been noticed by the masses, which are blinded at any given moment by a 
897rise in wages, which is at once annulled by a rise in prices. And if prices are limited by 
898governmental action, then the same thing happens, i.e. a contradiction between the wish 
899to spend more, produce less, is qualified here by monetary inflation. And so one gets a 
900vicious circle: a strike, hunger, inflation, hunger. 
901
902G - With the exception when the strike takes place at the expense of the surplus 
903value of Capitalism. 
904
905R - Theory, pure theory. Speaking between ourselves, take any annual handbook 
906concerning the economics of any country and divide rents and the total income by all 
907those receiving wages or salaries, and you will see what an extraordinary result emerges. 
908This result is the most counter-revolutionary fact, and we must keep it a complete secret. 
909This is because if you deduct from the theoretical dividend the salaries and expenses of 
910the directors, which would be the consequence on the abolition of ownership, then almost 
911always there remains a dividend which is a debit for the proletariat. In reality always a 
912debit, if we also consider the reduction in the volume and quality of production. As you 
913will now see, a call to strike, as a means for achieving a quick improvement of the well- 
914being of the proletariat is only an excuse; an excuse required in order to force it to 
915commit sabotage of Capitalistic production. Thus to the contradictions in the bourgeois 
916system are added contradictions within the proletariat; this is the double weapon of the 
917revolution, and it - which is obvious - does not arise of itself: there exists an 
918organization, chiefs, discipline, and above that there exists stupidity. Don't you suspect 
919that the much-mentioned contradictions of Capitalism, and in particular the financial 
920ones, are also organized by someone?. . . By way of basis for these deductions I shall 
921remind you that in its economic struggle the proletarian International coincides with the 
922financial International, since both produce inflation, and wherever there is coincidence 
923there, one should assume, is also agreement. Those are his own words. 
924
925G - I suspect here such an enormous absurdity, or the intention of spinning a new 
926paradox, that I do not want to imagine this. It looks as if you want to hint at the existence 
927of something like a Capitalistic second Communist International, of course an enemy 
928one. 
929
930R - Exactly so. When I spoke of the financial International, I thought of it as of a 
931Comintern, but having admitted the existence of the "Comintern," I would not say that 
932they are enemies. 
933
934G - If you want to make us lose time on inventions and fantasies, I must tell you 
935that you have chosen the wrong moment. 
936
937R - By the way, are you assuming that I am like the courtesan from 
938
939
940
94118 
942
943
944
945the "Arabian Nights," who used her imagination at night to save her life. . . No, if you 
946think that I am departing from the theme, then you are wrong. In order to reach that 
947which we have taken as our aim I, if I am not to fail, must first of all enlighten you about 
948the most important matters, while bearing in mind your general lack of acquaintance with 
949that which I would call the "Higher Marxism." I dare not evade these explanations as I 
950know well that such lack of knowledge exists in the Kremlin. . . Permit me to continue. 
951
952G - You may continue. But it is true that if all this were to be seen to be only a loss 
953of time to excite the imagination, then this amusement will have a very sad epilogue. I 
954have warned you. 
955
956R - I continue as if I have heard nothing. Insofar as you are a scholastic with 
957relation to Capital, and I want to awaken your inductive talents, I shall remind you of 
958some very curious things. Notice with what penetration Marx comes to conclusions given 
959the then existence of early British industry, concerning its consequences, i.e. the 
960contemporary colossal industry: how he analyses it and criticizes; what a repulsive 
961picture he gives of the manufacturer. In your imagination and that of the masses there 
962arises the terrible picture of Capitalism in its human concretization: a fat-bellied 
963manufacturer with a cigar in his mouth, as described by Marx, with self-satisfaction and 
964anger throwing the wife and daughter of the worker onto the street. Is that not so? At the 
965same time remember the moderation of Marx and his bourgeois orthodoxy when studying 
966the question of money. In the problem of money there do not appear with him his famous 
967contradictions. Finances do not exist for him as a thing of importance in itself; trade and 
968the circulation of moneys are the results of the cursed system of Capitalistic production, 
969which subjects them to itself and fully determines them. In the question of money Marx 
970is a reactionary; to one's immense surprise he was one; bear in mind the "five-pointed 
971star" like the Soviet one, which shines all over Europe, the star composed of the five 
972Rothschild brothers with their banks, who possess colossal accumulations of wealth, the 
973greatest ever known. . . And so this fact, so colossal that it misled the imagination of the 
974people of that epoch, passes unnoticed with Marx. Something strange. . . Is that not so? It 
975is possible that from this strange blindness of Marx there arises a phenomenon which is 
976common to all future social revolutions. It is this: we can all confirm that when the 
977masses take possession of a city or a country, then they always seem struck by a sort of 
978superstitious fear of the banks and bankers. One had killed Kings, generals, bishops, 
979policemen, priests and other representatives of the hated privileged classes; one robbed 
980and burnt palaces, churches and even centres of science, but though the revolutions were 
981economic-social, the lives of the bankers were respected, and as a result the magnificent 
982buildings of the banks remained untouched. . . According to my information, before I had 
983been arrested, this continues even now. . . 
984
985G - Where? 
986
987R - In Spain. . . Don't you know it? As you ask me, so tell me now: Do you not find 
988all this very strange? Think, the police. . . I do not know, have you paid attention to the 
989strange similarity which exists between the financial International and the proletarian 
990International. I would say that one is the other side of the other, and the back side is the 
991proletarian one as being more modern than the financial. 
992
993
994
99519 
996
997
998
999G - Where do you see similarity in things so opposed? 
1000
1001R - Objectively they are identical. As I had proved, the Comintern, paralleled, 
1002doubled by the reformist movement and the whole of syndicalism, calls forth the anarchy 
1003of production, inflation, poverty and hopelessness in the masses. Finances, chiefly the 
1004financial international, doubled, consciously or unconsciously by private finances, create 
1005the same contradictions, but in still greater numbers... Now we can already guess the 
1006reasons why Marx concealed the financial contradictions, which could not have remained 
1007hidden from his penetrating gaze, if finances had not had an ally, the influence of which - 
1008obj ectively revolutionary - was already then extraordinarily important. 
1009
1010G - An unconscious coincidence, but not an alliance which presupposes 
1011intelligence, will and agreement... 
1012
1013R - Let us leave this point of view if you like. Now let us better go over to the 
1014subjective analysis of finances and even more: let us see what sort of people personally 
1015are at work there. The international essence of money is well known. From this fact 
1016emerges that the organization which owns them and accumulates them is a cosmopolitan 
1017organization. Finances in their apogee - as an aim in themselves, the financial 
1018International - deny and do not recognize anything national, they do not recognize the 
1019State; and therefore it is anarchical and would be absolutely anarchical if it - the denier 
1020of any national State - were not itself, by necessity, a State in its own basic essence. The 
1021State as such is only power. And money is exclusively power. 
1022
1023This communistic super-state, which we are creating already during a whole 
1024century, and the scheme of which is the International of Marx. Analyze it and you will 
1025see its essence. The scheme of the International and its prototype of the USSR — that is 
1026also pure power. The basic similarity between the two creations is absolute. It is 
1027something fatalistic, inevitable, since the personalities of the authors of both was 
1028identical. The financier is just as international as the Communist. Both, with the help of 
1029differing pretexts and differing means, struggle with the national bourgeois State and 
1030deny it. Marxism in order to change it into a Communist State; from this comes that the 
1031Marxist must be an internationalist: the financier denies the bourgeois national State and 
1032his denial ends in itself; in fact he does not manifest himself as an internationalist, but as 
1033a cosmopolitan anarchist. . . That is his appearance at the given stage, but let us see what 
1034he really is and what he wants to be. As you see, in rejection there is a clear similarity 
1035individually between Communist-internationalists and financial-cosmopolitans; as a 
1036natural result there is the same similarity between the Communist International and the 
1037financial International... 
1038
1039G - This is a chance similarity subj ectively and obj ective in contradictions, but one 
1040easily eroded and having little significance and that which is most radical and existing in 
1041reality. 
1042
1043R - Allow me not to reply just now, so as not to interrupt the logical sequence. . . I 
1044only want to decipher the basic axiom: money is power. Money is today the centre of 
1045global gravity. I hope you agree with me? 
1046
1047G - Continue, Rakovsky, I beg of you. 
1048
1049R - The understanding of how the financial International has gradually, right up to 
1050our epoch, become the master of money, this 
1051
1052
1053
105420 
1055
1056
1057
1058magical talisman, which has become for people that which God and the nation had been 
1059formerly, is something which exceeds in scientific interest even the art of revolutionary 
1060strategy, since this is also an art and also a revolution. I shall explain it to you. 
1061Historiographers and the masses, blinded by the shouts and the pomp of the French 
1062revolution, the people, intoxicated by the fact that it had succeeded in taking all power 
1063from the King and the privileged classes, did not notice how a small group of mysterious, 
1064careful and insignificant people had taken possession of the real Royal power, the 
1065magical power, almost divine, which it obtained almost without knowing it. The masses 
1066did not notice that the power had been seized by others and that soon they had subjected 
1067them to a slavery more cruel than the King, since the latter, in view of his religious and 
1068moral prejudices, was incapable of taking advantage of such a power. So it came about 
1069that the supreme Royal power was taken over by persons, whose moral, intellectual and 
1070cosmopolitan qualities did allow them to use it. It is clear that this were people who had 
1071never been Christians, but cosmopolitans. 
1072
1073G - What is that for a mythical power which they had obtained? 
1074
1075R - They had acquired for themselves the real privilege of coining money. . . Do not 
1076smile, otherwise I shall have to believe that you do not know what moneys are. . . I ask 
1077you to put yourself in my place. My position in relation to you is that of the assistant of a 
1078doctor, who would have to explain bacteriology to a resurrected medical man of the 
1079epoch before Pasteur. But I can explain your lack of knowledge to myself and can forgive 
1080it. Our language makes use of words which provoke incorrect thoughts about things and 
1081actions, thanks to the power of the inertia of thoughts, and which do not correspond to 
1082real and exact conceptions. I say: money. It is clear that in your imagination there 
1083immediately appeared pictures of real money of metal and paper. But that is not so. 
1084Money is now not that; real circulating coin is a true anachronism. If it still exists and 
1085circulates, then it is only thanks to atavism, only because it is convenient to maintain the 
1086illusion, a purely imaginary fiction for the present day. 
1087
1088G - This is a brilliant paradox, risky and even poetical. 
1089
1090R - If you like, this is perhaps brilliant, but it is not a paradox. I know - and that is 
1091why you smiled - that States still coin money on pieces of metal or paper with Royal 
1092busts or national crests; well, so what? A great part of the money circulating, money for 
1093big affairs, as representative of all national wealth, money, yes money — it was being 
1094issued by those few people about whom I had hinted. Titles, figures, cheques, promissory 
1095notes, endorsements, discount, quotations, figures without end flooded States like a 
1096waterfall. What are in comparison with these the metallic and paper moneys?. . . 
1097Something devoid of influence, some kind of minimum in the face of the growing flood 
1098of the all-flooding financial money. They, being the most subtle psychologists, were able 
1099to gain even more without trouble, thanks to a lack of understanding. In addition to the 
1100immensely varied different forms of financial moneys, they created credit-money with a 
1101view to making its volume close to infinite. And to give it the speed of sound. . . it is an 
1102abstraction, a being of thought, a figure, number, credit, faith... 
1103
1104Do you understand already?... Fraud; false moneys, given a legal standing..., using 
1105other terminology, so that you should understand 
1106
1107
1108
110921 
1110
1111
1112
1113me. Banks, the stock exchanges and the whole world financial system — is a gigantic 
1114machine for the purpose of bringing about unnatural scandals, according to Aristotle's 
1115expression; to force money to produce money — that is something that if it is a crime in 
1116economics, then in relations to finances it is a crime against the criminal code, since it is 
1117usury. I do not know by what arguments all this is justified: by the proposition that they 
1118receive legal interest... Even accepting that, and even that admission is more than is 
1119necessary, we see that usury still exists, since even if the interest received is legal, then it 
1120invents and falsifies the non-existent capital. Banks have always by way of deposits or 
1121moneys in productive movement a certain quantity of money which is five or perhaps 
1122even a hundred times greater than there are physically coined moneys of metal or paper. I 
1123shall say nothing of those cases when the credit-moneys, i.e. false, fabricated ones, are 
1124greater than the quantity of moneys paid out as capital. Bearing in mind that lawful 
1125interest is fixed not on real capital but on non-existing capital, the interest is illegal by so 
1126many times as the fictional capital is greater than the real one. 
1127
1128Bear in mind that this system, which I am describing in detail, is one of the most 
1129innocent among those used for the fabrication of false money. Imagine to yourself, if you 
1130can, a small number of people, having unlimited power through the possession of real 
1131wealth, and you will see that they are the absolute dictators of the stock-exchange; and as 
1132a result of this also the dictators of production and distribution and also of work and 
1133consumption. If you have enough imagination then multiply this, by the global factor and 
1134you will see its anarchical, moral and social influence, i.e. a revolutionary one... Do you 
1135now understand? 
1136
1137G - No, not yet. 
1138
1139R - Obviously it is very difficult to understand miracles. 
1140
1141G - Miracle? 
1142
1143R - Yes, miracle. Is it not a miracle that a wooden bench has been transformed into 
1144a temple? And yet such a miracle has been seen by people a thousand times, and they did 
1145not bat an eyelid, during a whole century. Since this was an extraordinary miracle that the 
1146benches on which sat the greasy usurers to trade in their moneys, have now been 
1147converted into temples, which stand magnificently at every corner of contemporary big 
1148towns with their heathen colonnades, and crowds go there with a faith which they are 
1149already not given by heavenly gods, in order to bring assiduously their deposits of all 
1150their possessions to the god of money, who, they imagine, lives in the steel safes of the 
1151bankers, and who is preordained, thanks to his divine mission to increase the wealth to a 
1152metaphysical infinity. 
1153
1154G - This is the new religion of the decayed bourgeoisie? 
1155
1156R - Religion, yes, the religion of power. 
1157
1158G - You appear to be the poet of economics. 
1159
1160R - If you like, then in order to give a picture of finance, as of a work of art which 
1161is most obviously a work of genius and the most revolutionary of all times, poetry is 
1162required. 
1163
1164G - This is a faulty view. Finances, as defined by Marx, and more especially 
1165Engels, are determined by the system of Capitalistic production. 
1166
1167
1168
116922 
1170
1171
1172
1173R - Exactly, but just the reverse: the Capitalistic system of production is 
1174determined by finance. The fact that Engels states the opposite and even tries to prove 
1175this, is the most obvious proof that finances rule bourgeois production. So it is and so it 
1176was even before Marx and Engels, that finances were the most powerful instrument of 
1177revolution and the Comintern was nothing but a toy in their hands. But neither Marx nor 
1178Engels will disclose or explain this. On the contrary, making use of their talent as 
1179scientists, they had to camouflage truth for a second time in the interests of the 
1180revolution. And that both of them did. 
1181
1182G - This story is not new. All this somewhat reminds me of what Trotsky had 
1183written some ten years ago. 
1184
1185R- Tell me... 
1186
1187G - When he says that the Comintern is a conservative organization in comparison 
1188with the stock-exchange in New York; he points at the big bankers as being the inventors 
1189of the revolution. 
1190
1191R - Yes, he said this in a small book in which he foretold the fall of England. . . Yes, 
1192he said this and added: "Who pushes England along the path of revolution?". . . and 
1193replied: "Not Moscow, but New York." 
1194
1195G - But remember also his assertion that if the financiers of New York had forged 
1196the revolution, then it was done unconsciously. 
1197
1198R - The explanation which I had already given in order to help to understand why 
1199Engels and Marx camouflaged the truth, is equally applicable also to Leo Trotsky. 
1200
1201G - I value in Trotsky only that he in a sort of literary form interpreted an opinion 
1202of a fact which as such was too well known, with which one had already reckoned 
1203previously. Trotsky himself states quite correctly that these bankers "carry out irresistibly 
1204and unconsciously their revolutionary mission." 
1205
1206R - And they carry out their mission despite the fact that Trotsky has declared it? 
1207What a strange thing! Why do they not improve their actions? 
1208
1209G - The financiers are unconscious revolutionaries since they are such only 
1210objectively, as the result of their intellectual incapacity of seeing the final consequences. 
1211
1212R - You believe this sincerely? You think that among these real geniuses there are 
1213some who are unconscious? You consider to be idiots people to whom today the whole 
1214world is subjected? This would really be a very stupid contradiction! 
1215
1216G - What do you pretend to? 
1217
1218R - I simply assert that they are revolutionaries objectively and subjectively, quite 
1219consciously. 
1220
1221G - The bankers! You must be mad? 
1222
1223R - I, no. . . But you? Think a little. These people are just like you and me. The 
1224circumstance that they control moneys in unlimited amounts, insofar as they themselves 
1225create them, does not give us the opportunity of determining the limits of all their 
1226ambitions. . . If there is something which provides a man with full satisfaction then it is 
1227the satisfaction of his ambition. And most of all the satisfaction of his 
1228
1229
1230
123123 
1232
1233
1234
1235will to power. Why should not these people, the bankers, have the impulse towards 
1236power, towards full power? Just as it happens to you and to me. 
1237
1238G - But if, according to you - and I think the same - they already have global 
1239political power, then what other power do they want to possess? 
1240
1241R - I have already told you: Full power. Such power as Stalin has in the USSR, but 
1242world-wide. 
1243
1244G - Such power as Stalin's, but with the opposite aim. 
1245
1246R - Power, if in reality it is absolute, can be only one. The idea of the absolute 
1247excludes multiplicity. For that reason the power sought by the Comintern and 
1248"Comintern," which are things of the same order, being absolute, must also in politics be 
1249unique and identical: Absolute power has a purpose in itself, otherwise it is not absolute. 
1250And until the present day there has not yet been invented another machine of total power 
1251except the Communist State. Capitalistic bourgeois power, even on its highest rung of the 
1252ladder, the power of Caesar, is limited power since if, in theory, it was the personification 
1253of the deity in the Pharaohs and Caesars in ancient times, then nevertheless, thanks to the 
1254economic character of life in those primitive States and owing to the technical under- 
1255development of the State apparatus, there was always room for individual freedom. Do 
1256you understand that those who already partially rule over nations and worldly 
1257governments have pretensions to absolute domination? Understand that that is the only 
1258thing which they have not yet reached. 
1259
1260G - This is interesting: at least as an example of insanity. 
1261
1262R - Certainly, insanity in a lesser degree than in the case of Lenin, who dreamt of 
1263power over the whole world in his attic in Switzerland or the insanity of Stalin, dreaming 
1264of the same thing during his exile in a Siberian hut. I think that dreams of such ambitions 
1265are much more natural for the moneyed people, living in the skyscrapers of New York. 
1266
1267G - Let us conclude: Who are they? 
1268
1269R - You are so naive that you think that if I knew who "They" are, I would be here 
1270as a prisoner? 
1271
1272G - Why? 
1273
1274R - For a very simple reason, since he who is acquainted with them would not be 
1275put into a position in which he would be obliged to report on them. . . This is an 
1276elementary rule of every intelligent conspiracy, which you must well understand. 
1277
1278G - But you said that they are the bankers? 
1279
1280R - Not I; remember that I always spoke of the financial International, and when 
1281mentioning persons I said "They" and nothing more. If you want that I should inform you 
1282openly then I shall only give facts, but not names, since I do not know them. I think I 
1283shall not be wrong if I tell you that not one of "Them" is a person who occupies a 
1284political position or a position in the World Bank. As I understood after the murder of 
1285Rathenau in Rapallo, they give political or financial positions only to intermediaries. 
1286Obviously to persons who are trustworthy and loyal, which can be guaranteed a thousand 
1287ways: thus one can assert that bankers and politicians — are only men of straw... even 
1288though they 
1289
1290
1291
129224 
1293
1294
1295
1296occupy very high places and are made to appear to be the authors of the plans which are 
1297carried out. 
1298
1299G - Although all this can be understood and is also logical, but is not your 
1300declaration of not knowing only an evasion? As it seems to me, and according to the 
1301information I have, you occupied a sufficiently high place in this conspiracy to have 
1302known much more. You do not even know a single one of them personally? 
1303
1304R - Yes, but of course you do not believe me. I have come to that moment where I 
1305had explained that I am talking about a person and persons with a personality. . . how 
1306should one say?... a mystical one, like Gandhi or something like that, but without any 
1307external display. Mystics of pure power, who have become free from all vulgar trifles. I 
1308do not know if you understand me? Well, as to their place of residence and names, I do 
1309not know them. . . Imagine Stalin just now, in reality ruling the USSR, but not surrounded 
1310by stone walls, not having any personnel around him, and having the same guarantees for 
1311his life as any other citizen. By which means could he guard against attempts on his life? 
1312He is first of all a conspirator, however great his power, he is anonymous. 
1313
1314G - What you are saying is logical, but I do not believe you. 
1315
1316R - But still believe me; I know nothing; if I knew then how happy I would be! I 
1317would not be here, defending my life. I well understand your doubts and that, in view of 
1318your police education, you feel the need for some knowledge about persons. To honour 
1319you and also because this is essential for the aim which we both have set ourselves, I 
1320shall do all I can in order to inform you. You know that according to the unwritten 
1321history known only to us, the founder of the First Communist International is indicated, 
1322of course secretly, as being Weishaupt. You remember his name? He was the head of the 
1323masonry which is known by the name of the Illuminati; this name he borrowed from the 
1324second anti-Christian conspiracy of that era — Gnosticism. This important revolutionary, 
1325Semite and former Jesuit, foreseeing the triumph of the French revolution decided, or 
1326perhaps he was ordered (some mention as his chief the important philosopher 
1327Mendelssohn) to found a secret organization which was to provoke and push the French 
1328revolution to go further than its political objectives, with the aim of transforming it into a 
1329social revolution for the establishment of Communism. In those heroic times it was 
1330colossally dangerous to mention Communism as an aim; from this derive the various 
1331precautions and secrets, which had to surround the Illuminati. More than a hundred years 
1332were required before a man could confess to being a Communist without danger of going 
1333to prison or being executed. This is more or less known. What is not known are the 
1334relations between Weishaupt and his followers with the first of the Rothschilds. The 
1335secret of the acquisition of wealth of the best known bankers could have been explained 
1336by the fact that they were the treasurers of this first Comintern. There is evidence that 
1337when the five brothers spread out to the five provinces of the financial empire of Europe, 
1338they had some secret help for the accumulation of these enormous sums: it is possible 
1339that they were those first Communists from the Bavarian catacombs who were already 
1340spread all over Europe. But others say, and I think with better reason, that the Rothschilds 
1341were not the treasurers, but the 
1342
1343
1344
134525 
1346
1347
1348
1349chiefs of that first secret Communism. This opinion is based on that well-known fact that 
1350Marx and the highest chiefs of the First International - already the open one - and among 
1351them Herzen and Heine, were controlled by Baron Lionel Rothschild, whose 
1352revolutionary portrait was done by Disraeli [in Coningsby — Transl.] the English 
1353Premier, who was his creature, and has been left to us. He described him in the character 
1354of Sidonia, a man, who, according to the story, was a multi-millionaire, knew and 
1355controlled spies, carbonari, freemasons, secret Jews, gypsies, revolutionaries etc., etc. All 
1356this seems fantastic. But it has been proved that Sidonia is an idealized portrait of the son 
1357of Nathan Rothschild, which can also be deduced from that campaign which he raised 
1358against Tsar Nicholas in favour of Herzen. He won this campaign. 
1359
1360If all that which we can guess in the light of these facts is true, then, I think, we 
1361could even determine who invented this terrible machine of accumulation and anarchy, 
1362which is the financial International. At the same time, I think, he would be the same 
1363person who also created the revolutionary International. It is an act of genius: to create 
1364with the help of Capitalism accumulation of the highest degree, to push the proletariat 
1365towards strikes, to sow hopelessness, and at the same time to create an organization 
1366which must unite the proletarians with the purpose of driving them into revolution. This 
1367is to write the most majestic chapter of history. Even more: remember the phrase of the 
1368mother of the five Rothschild brothers: "If my sons want it, then there will be no war." 
1369This means that they were the arbiters, the masters of peace and war, but not emperors. 
1370Are you capable of visualizing the fact of such a cosmic importance? Is not war already a 
1371revolutionary function? War — the Commune. Since that time every war was a giant step 
1372towards Communism. As if some mysterious force satisfied the passionate wish of Lenin, 
1373which he had expressed to Gorky. Remember: 1905-1914. Do admit at least that two of 
1374the three levers of power which lead to Communism are not controlled and cannot be 
1375controlled by the proletariat. 
1376
1377Wars were not brought about and were not controlled by either the Third 
1378International or the USSR, which did not yet exist at that time. Equally they cannot be 
1379provoked and still less controlled by those small groups of Bolsheviks who plod along in 
1380the emigration, although they want war. This is quite obvious. The International and the 
1381USSR have even fewer possibilities for such immense accumulations of capital and the 
1382creation of national or international anarchy in Capitalistic production. Such an anarchy 
1383which is capable of forcing people to burn huge quantities of foodstuffs, rather than give 
1384them to starving people, and is capable of that which Rathenau described in one of his 
1385phrases, i.e.: "To bring about that half the world will fabricate dung, and the other half 
1386will use it." And, after all, can the proletariat believe that it is the cause of this inflation, 
1387growing in geometric progression, this devaluation, the constant acquisition of surplus 
1388values and the accumulation of financial capital, but not usury capital, and that as the 
1389result of the fact that it cannot prevent the constant lowering of its purchasing power, 
1390there takes place the proletarization of the middle classes, who are the true opponents of 
1391revolution? The proletariat does not control the lever of economics or the lever of war. 
1392But it is itself the third lever, the only visible and demonstrable lever, which carries out 
1393the final blow at the power of the Capitalistic State and takes it over. Yes, they seize it, if 
1394"They" yield it to them. . . 
1395
1396
1397
139826 
1399
1400
1401
1402G - I again repeat to you that all this, which you have set out in such a literate form, 
1403has a name which we have already repeated to excess in this endless conversation: the 
1404natural contradictions of Capitalism and if, as you claim, there is yet someone else's will 
1405and activity apart from the proletariat, then I want you to indicate to me concretely a 
1406personal case. 
1407
1408R - You require only one? Well, then listen to a small story: "They" isolated the 
1409Tsar diplomatically for the Russo-Japanese War, and the United States financed Japan; 
1410speaking precisely, this was done by Jacob Schiff, the head of the bank of Kuhn, Loeb & 
1411Co., which is the successor of the House of Rothschild, whence Schiff originated. He had 
1412such power that he achieved that States which had colonial possessions in Asia supported 
1413the creation of the Japanese Empire which was inclined towards xenophobia; and Europe 
1414already feels the effects of this xenophobia. From the prisoner-of-war camps there came 
1415to Petrograd the best fighters, trained as revolutionary agents; they were sent there from 
1416America with the permission of Japan, obtained through the persons who had financed it. 
1417The Russo-Japanese War, thanks to the organized defeat of the Tsar's army, called forth 
1418the revolution of 1905, which, though it was premature, but was very nearly successful; 
1419even if it did not win, it still created the required political conditions for the victory of 
14201917. 1 shall say even more. Have you read the biography of Trotsky? Recall its first 
1421revolutionary period. He is still quite a young man; after his flight from Siberia he lived 
1422some time among the emigres in London, Paris, and Switzerland; Lenin, Plekhanov, 
1423Martov and other chiefs look on him only as a promising newcomer. But he already dares 
1424during the first split to behave independently, trying to become the arbiter of the reunion. 
1425In 1905 he is 25 years old and he returns to Russia alone, without a party and without his 
1426own organization. Read the reports of the revolution of 1905 which have not been 
1427"pruned" by Stalin; for example that of Lunatcharsky, who was not a Trotskyite. Trotsky 
1428is the chief figure during the revolution in Petrograd. This is how it really was. Only he 
1429emerges from it with increased popularity and influence. Neither Lenin, nor Martov, nor 
1430Plekhanov acquire popularity. They only keep it and even lose a little. How and why 
1431there rises the unknown Trotsky, gaining power by one move greater than that which the 
1432oldest and most influential revolutionaries had? Very simple: he marries. Together with 
1433him there arrives in Russia his wife — Sedova. Do you know who she is? She is 
1434associated with Zhivotovsky, linked with the bankers Warburg, partners and relatives of 
1435Jacob Schiff, i.e. of that financial group which, as I had said, had also financed the 
1436revolution of 1905. Here is the reason why Trotsky, in one move, moves to the top of the 
1437revolutionary list. And here, too, you have the key to his real personality. Let us jump to 
14381914. Behind the back of the people who made the attempt on the Archduke there stands 
1439Trotsky, and that attempt provoked the European War. Do you really believe that the 
1440murder and the war — are simple coincidences?. . ., as had been said at one of the Zionist 
1441congresses by Lord Melchett. Analyze in the light of "non-coincidence" the development 
1442of the military actions in Russia. "Defeatism" is an exemplary word. The help of the 
1443Allies for the Tsar was regulated and controlled with such skill that it gave the Allied 
1444ambassadors the right to make an argument of this and to get from Nicholas, thanks to 
1445
1446
1447
144827 
1449
1450
1451
1452his stupidity, suicidal advances, one after another. The mass of the Russian cannon 
1453fodder was immense, but not inexhaustible. A series of organized defeats led to the 
1454revolution. When the threat came from all sides, then a cure was found in the form of the 
1455establishment of a democratic republic — an "ambassadorial republic" as Lenin called it 
1456i.e. this meant the elimination of any threat to the revolutionaries. But that is not yet all. 
1457Kerensky was to provoke the future advance at the cost of a very great deal of blood. He 
1458brings it about so that the democratic revolution should spread beyond its bounds. And 
1459even still more: Kerensky was to surrender the State fully to Communism, and he does it. 
1460Trotsky has the chance in an "unnoticed manner" to occupy the whole State apparatus. 
1461What a strange blindness! Well that is the reality of the much praised October revolution. 
1462The Bolsheviks took that which "They" gave them. 
1463
1464G - You dare to say that Kerensky was a collaborator of Lenin? 
1465
1466R - Of Lenin — no. Of Trotsky — yes; it is more correct to say — a collaborator of 
1467"Them." 
1468
1469G -An absurdity! 
1470
1471R - You cannot understand. . . precisely you? It surprises me. If you were to be a 
1472spy and, while hiding your identity, you were to attain the position of commander of the 
1473enemy fortress, then would you not open the gates to the attacking forces in whose 
1474service you actually were? You would not have become a prisoner who had experienced 
1475defeat? Would you not have been in danger of death during the attack on the fortress if 
1476one of the attackers, not knowing that your uniform is only a mask, would have taken you 
1477for an enemy? Believe me: despite the statues and mausoleum — Communism is indebted 
1478to Kerensky much more than to Lenin. 
1479
1480G - You want to say that Kerensky was a conscious and voluntary defeatist? 
1481
1482R - Yes to me that is quite clear. Understand that I personally took part in all this. I 
1483shall tell you even more: Do you know who financed the October revolution? "They" 
1484financed it, in particular through those same bankers who had financed Japan in 1905, i.e. 
1485Jacob Schiff, and the brothers Warburg; that means through the great banking 
1486constellation, through one of the five banks who are members of the Federal Reserve, 
1487through the bank of Kuhn, Loeb & Co., here there took part also other American and 
1488European bankers, such as Guggenheim, Hanauer, Breitung, Aschberg, the "Nya 
1489Banken" of Stockholm. I was there "by chance," there in Stockholm, and participated in 
1490the transmission of funds. Until Trotsky arrived I was the only person who was an 
1491intermediary from the revolutionary side. But at last Trotsky came; I must underline that 
1492the Allies had expelled him from France for being a defeatist. And the same Allies 
1493released him so that he could be a defeatist in allied Russia. . . "Another chance." Who 
1494arranged it? The same people who had succeeded that Lenin passed through Germany. 
1495Yes, "They" were able to get the defeatist Trotsky out of a Canadian camp to England 
1496and send him on to Russia, giving him the chance to pass freely through all the Allied 
1497controls; others of "Them" - a certain Rathenau - accomplishes the journey of Lenin 
1498through enemy Germany. If you will undertake the study of the history of the revolution 
1499and civil war without prejudices, and will use all your 
1500
1501
1502
150328 
1504
1505
1506
1507enquiring capabilities, which you know how to apply to things much less important and 
1508less obvious, then when you study informations in their totality, and also study separate 
1509details right up to anecdotal happenings you will meet with a whole series of "amazing 
1510chances." 
1511
1512G - Alright, let us accept the hypothesis that not everything was simply a matter of 
1513luck. What deductions to you make here for practical results? 
1514
1515R - Let me finish this little story, and then we shall both arrive at conclusions. 
1516From the time of his arrival in Petrograd Trotsky was openly received by Lenin. As you 
1517know sufficiently well, during the interval between the two revolutions there had been 
1518deep differences between them. All is forgotten and Trotsky emerges as the master of his 
1519trade in the matter of the triumph of the revolution, whether Stalin wants this or not. 
1520Why? This secret is known to the wife of Lenin — Krupskaya. She knows who Trotsky is 
1521in fact; it is she who persuaded Lenin to receive Trotsky. If he had not received him, then 
1522Lenin would have remained blocked up in Switzerland; this alone had been for him a 
1523serious reason, and in addition he knew that Trotsky provided money and helped to get a 
1524colossal international assistance, a proof of this was the sealed train. Furthermore it was 
1525the result of Trotsky's work, and not of the iron determination of Lenin that there was the 
1526unification round the insignificant party of the Bolsheviks of the whole Left-wing 
1527revolutionary camp, the social-revolutionaries and the anarchists. It was not for nothing 
1528that the real party of the "non-party" Trotsky was the ancient "Bund" of the Jewish 
1529proletariat, from which emerged all the Moscow revolutionary branches, and to whom it 
1530gave 90% of its leaders; not the official and well-known Bund, but the secret Bund which 
1531had been infiltrated into all the Socialist parties, the leaders of which were almost all 
1532under its control. 
1533
1534G - And Kerensky too? 
1535
1536R - Kerensky too. . ., and also some other leaders who were not Socialists, the 
1537leaders of the bourgeois political fractions. 
1538
1539G - How is that? 
1540
1541R - You forget about the role of freemasonry in the first phase of the democratic- 
1542bourgeois revolution? 
1543
1544G - Were they also controlled by the Bund? 
1545
1546R - Naturally, as the nearest step, but in fact subject to "Them." 
1547
1548G - Despite the rising tide of Marxism which also threatened their lives and 
1549privileges? 
1550
1551R - Despite all that; obviously they did not see that danger. Bear in mind that every 
1552mason saw and hoped to see in his imagination more that there was in reality, because he 
1553imagined that which was profitable for him. As a proof of the political power of their 
1554association they saw that masons were in governments and at the pinnacle of the States of 
1555the bourgeois nations, while their numbers were growing all the time. Bear in mind that 
1556at that time the rulers of all the Allied nations were freemasons, with very few 
1557exceptions. This was to them an argument of great force. They fully believed that the 
1558revolution would stop at the bourgeois republic of the French type. 
1559
1560G - In accordance with the picture which was given of the Russia of 1917 one had 
1561to be a very naive person to believe all this. . . 
1562
1563
1564
156529 
1566
1567
1568
1569R - They were and are such. Masons had learned nothing from that first lesson 
1570which, for them, had been the Great Revolution, in which they piayed a colossal 
1571revolutionary role; it consumed the majority of masons, beginning with the Grand Master 
1572of the Orleans Lodge, more correctly the freemason Louis XVI, in order then to continue 
1573
1574to destroy the Girondistes, the Hebertistes, the Jacoboins etc and if some survived it 
1575
1576was due to the month of Brumaire. 
1577
1578G - Do you want to say that the freemasons have to die at the hands of the 
1579revolution which has been brought about with their co-operation? 
1580
1581R - Exactly so. You have formulated a truth which is veiled by a great secret. I am 
1582a mason, you already knew about that. Is that not so? Well, I shall tell you this great 
1583secret, which they promise to disclose to a mason in one of the higher degrees, but which 
1584is not disclosed to him either in the 25th, nor the 33rd, nor the 93rd, nor any other high 
1585level of any ritual. It is clear that I know of this not as a freemason, but as one who 
1586belongs to "Them"... 
1587
1588G - And what is it? 
1589
1590R - Every Masonic organization tries to attain and to create all the required 
1591prerequisites for the triumph of the Communist revolution; this is the obvious aim of 
1592freemasonry; it is clear that all this is done under various pretexts; but they always 
1593conceal themselves behind their well-known treble slogan. (Liberty, Equality, Fraternity 
1594— Transl.) You understand? But since the Communist revolution has in mind the 
1595liquidation, as a class, of the whole bourgeoisie, the physical destruction of all bourgeois 
1596political rulers, it follows that the real secret of masonry is the suicide of freemasonry as 
1597an organization, and the physical suicide of every more important mason. You can, of 
1598course, understand that such an end, which is being prepared for every mason, fully 
1599deserves the secrecy, decorativeness and the inclusion of yet another whole series of 
1600secrets, with a view to concealing the real one. If one day you were to be present at some 
1601future revolution then do not miss the opportunity of observing the gestures of surprise 
1602and the expression of stupidity on the face of some freemason at the moment when he 
1603realizes that he must die at the hands of the revolutionaries. How he screams and wants 
1604that one should value his services to the revolution! It is a sight at which one can die. . . 
1605but of laughter. 
1606
1607G - And you still deny the inborn stupidity of the bourgeoisie? 
1608
1609R - I deny it in the bourgeoisie as a class, but not in certain sectors. The existence 
1610of madhouses does not prove universal madness. Freemasonry is also a madhouse, but at 
1611liberty. But I continue further: the revolution has been victorious, the seizure of power 
1612has been achieved. There arises the first problem, peace, and with it the first differences 
1613within the party, in which there participate the forces of the coalition, which takes 
1614advantage of power. I shall not explain to you that which is well known about the 
1615struggle which developed in Moscow between the adherents and opponents of the peace 
1616of Brest-Litovsk. I shall only point out to you that which had already become evident 
1617then and was later called the Trotskyist opposition, i.e. these are the people, a part of 
1618whom have already been liquidated and the other part is to be liquidated: they were all 
1619against the signing of the peace treaty. That peace was a mistake and an unconscious 
1620betrayal by Lenin of the 
1621
1622
1623
162430 
1625
1626
1627
1628International Revolution. Imagine to yourself the Bolsheviks in Versailles at the Peace 
1629Conference, and then in the League of Nations, finding themselves inside Germany with 
1630the Red Army, which had been armed and increased by the Allies. The Soviet State 
1631should have participated with arms in the German revolution. . . Quite another map of 
1632Europe would then have emerged. But Lenin, intoxicated with power, with the help of 
1633Stalin, who had also tasted the fruits of power supported by the national Russian wing of 
1634the party, having at their disposal the material resources, enforced their will. Then was 
1635born "Socialism in one country," i.e. National-Communism, which has to-day reached its 
1636apogee under Stalin. It is obvious that there was a struggle, but only in such a form and 
1637extent that the Communist State should not be destroyed; this condition was binding on 
1638the opposition during the whole time of its further struggle right up to the present day. 
1639This was the reason for our first failure and all those which followed. But the fight was 
1640severe, cruel, although concealed in order not to compromise our participation in power. 
1641Trotsky organized, with the help of his friends, the attempt on Lenin's life by Kaplan. On 
1642his orders Blumkin killed the ambassador Mirbach. The coup d'etat which was prepared 
1643by Spiridonova with her social-revolutionaries had been co-ordinated with Trotsky. His 
1644man for all these affairs, who was immune from all suspicions, was that Rosenblum, a 
1645Lithuanian Jew, who used the name of O'Reilly, and was known as the best spy of the 
1646British Intelligence. In fact he was a man from "Them." The reason why this famous 
1647Rosenblum was chosen, who was known only as a British spy, was that in case of failure 
1648the responsibility for assassinations and conspiracies would fall not on Trotsky, and not 
1649on us, but on England. So it happened. Thanks to the Civil War we rejected conspiratorial 
1650and terrorist methods as we were given the chance of having in our hands the real forces 
1651of the State, insofar as Trotsky became the organizer and chief of the Soviet Army; 
1652before that the army had continuously retreated before the Whites and the territory of the 
1653USSR was reduced to the size of the former Moscow Principality. But here, as if by 
1654magic, it begins to win. What do you think, why? As the result of magic or chance? I 
1655shall tell you: when Trotsky took over the top command of the Red Army then he had by 
1656this in his hands the forces necessary to seize power. A series of victories was to increase 
1657his prestige and forces: it was already possible to defeat the Whites. Do you think that 
1658that official history was true which ascribes to the unarmed and ill-disciplined Red Army 
1659the fact that with its help there was achieved a series of victories? 
1660
1661G - But to whom then? 
1662
1663R - To the extent of ninety per cent they were indebted to "Them." You must not 
1664forget that the Whites were, in their way, democratic. The Mensheviks were with them 
1665and the remnants of all the old Liberal parties. Inside these forces "They" always had in 
1666their service many people, consciously and unconsciously. When Trotsky began to 
1667command then these people were ordered systematically to betray the Whites and at the 
1668same time they were promised participation, in a more or less short time, in the Soviet 
1669Government. Maisky was one of those people, one of the few in the case of which this 
1670promise was carried out, but he was able to achieve this only after Stalin had become 
1671convinced of his loyalty. This sabotage, linked with a progressive diminution of the help 
1672of the Allies to the White generals, who apart from all that 
1673
1674
1675
167631 
1677
1678
1679
1680were luckless idiots, forced them to experience defeat after defeat. Finally Wilson 
1681introduced in his famous 14 Points Point 6, the existence of which was enough in order 
1682to bring to an end once and for all the attempts of the Whites to fight against the USSR. 
1683The Civil War strengthens the position of Trotsky as the heir of Lenin. So it was without 
1684any doubt. The old revolutionary could now die, having acquired fame. If he remained 
1685alive after the bullet of Kaplan, he did not emerge alive after the secret process of the 
1686forcible ending of his life, to which he was subj ected. 
1687
1688G - Trotsky shortened his life? This is a big favourable point for our trial! Was it 
1689not Levin who was Lenin's doctor? 
1690
1691R - Trotsky?. . . It is probable that he participated, but it is quite certain that he 
1692knew about it. But as far as the technical realization is concerned. . ., that is unimportant; 
1693who knows this? "They" have a sufficient number of channels in order to penetrate to 
1694wherever they want. 
1695
1696G - In any event the murder of Lenin is a matter of the greatest importance and it 
1697would be worth while to transfer it for examination to the next trial. . . What do you think, 
1698Rakovsky, if you were by chance to be the author of this affair? It is clear that if you fail 
1699to achieve success in this conversation... The technical execution suits you well as a 
1700doctor. . . 
1701
1702R - I do not recommend this to you. Leave this matter alone, it is sufficiently 
1703dangerous for Stalin himself. You will be able to spread your propaganda as you wish: 
1704but "They" have their propaganda which is more powerful and the question as to qui 
1705podest — who gains, will force one to see in Stalin the murderer of Lenin, and that 
1706argument will be stronger than any confessions extracted from Levin, me or anyone else. 
1707
1708G - What do you want to say by this? 
1709
1710R - That it is the classical and infallible rule in the determination of who the 
1711murderer is to check who gained. . ., and as far as the assassination of Lenin is concerned, 
1712in this case the beneficiary was his chief — Stalin. Think about this and I very much ask 
1713you not to make these remarks, as they distract me and do not make it possible for me to 
1714finish. 
1715
1716G - Very well, continue, but you already know. . . 
1717
1718R - It is well known that if Trotsky did not inherit from Lenin then it was not 
1719because by human calculations there was something missing in the plan. During Lenin's 
1720illness Trotsky held in his hands all the threads of power, which were more than 
1721sufficient to enable him to succeed Lenin. And measures had been taken to declare a 
1722sentence of 
1723
1724
1725
1726Wilson's Point 6 read: "The evacuation of all Russian territory, and such a settlement of all questions 
1727affecting Russia as will secure the best and freest co-operation of the other nations of the world in 
1728obtaining for her an unhampered and unembarrassed opportunity for the independent determination of her 
1729own political development and national policy, and assure her of a sincere welcome into the society of free 
1730nations under institutions of her own choosing, and more than a welcome, assistance also of every kind that 
1731she may need and may herself desire. The treatment accorded Russia by her sister nations in the months to 
1732come will be the acid test of their good will, of heir comprehension of her needs as distinguished from their 
1733own interests, and of their intelligent and unselfish sympathy." — Transl. 
1734
173532 
1736
1737
1738
1739death on Stalin. For Trotsky the dictator it was enough to have in his hands the letter of 
1740Lenin against his then chief — Stalin, which had been torn from her husband by 
1741Krupskaya, to liquidate Stalin.* But a stupid mischance, as you know, ruined all our 
1742chances. Trotsky became ill unexpectedly and at the decisive moment, when Lenin dies, 
1743he becomes incapable of any action during a period of several months. Despite his 
1744possession of enormous advantages, the obstacle was our organization of the affair, i.e. 
1745its personal centralization. It is obvious that such a person as Trotsky, prepared in 
1746advance for his mission, which he was to realize, cannot be created at once, by 
1747improvisation. None among us, not even Zinoviev, had the requisite training and qualities 
1748for this undertaking; on the other hand Trotsky, being afraid of being displaced, did not 
1749himself want to help anybody. Thus, after the death of Lenin, when we had to be face to 
1750face with Stalin, who commenced a feverish activity, we foresaw then already our defeat 
1751in the Central Committee. We had to improvise a decision: and it was to ally ourselves 
1752with Stalin, to become Stalinists more than he himself, to exaggerate in everything and, 
1753therefore, to sabotage. The rest you know already: that was our uninterrupted 
1754subterranean struggle and our continuous failure to Stalin's advantage, while he displays 
1755police talents of genius, having absolutely no equals in the past. And even more: Stalin, 
1756possessing national atavism, which had not been uprooted in him by his early Marxism, 
1757apparently for that reason underlines his pan-Russianism, and in this connexion resurrects 
1758a class which we had to destroy, that is the class of National-Communists, as opposed to 
1759the Internationalist-Communists, which we are. He places the International at the service 
1760of the USSR and it already accepts his mastery. If we want to find an historical parallel, 
1761then we must point to Bonapartism, and if we want to find a person of Stalin's type, then 
1762we shall not find an historical parallel for him. But perhaps I shall be able to find it in its 
1763basic characteristics by combining two people: Fouche and Napoleon. Let us try to 
1764deprive the latter of his second half, his accessories, uniforms, military rank, crown and 
1765such like things, which, it seems, do not tempt Stalin, and then together they will give us 
1766a type identical with Stalin in the most important respects: he is the killer of the 
1767revolution, he does not serve it, but makes use of its services; he represents the most 
1768ancient Russian Imperialism, just as Napoleon identified himself with the Gauls, he 
1769created an aristocracy, even if not a military one, one, since there are no victories, then a 
1770bureaucratic-police one. 
1771
1772G - That is enough. Rakovsky. You are not here to make Trotskyist propaganda. 
1773Will you at last get to something concrete? 
1774
1775R - It is clear that I shall, but not before I had reached the point at which you will 
1776have formulated for yourself an at least superficial conception concerning "Them," with 
1777whom you will have to reckon in practice and in concrete actuality. Not sooner. For me it 
1778is far more important than for you not to fail, which you must, naturally, understand. 
1779
1780G - Well, try to shorten the story as far as possible. 
1781
1782R - Our failures, which get worse every year, prevent the immediate carrying out of 
1783that which "They" have prepared in the after-war period for the further leap of the 
1784revolution forward. The Versailles Treaty, 
1785
1786
1787
1788It will be observed that twice Rakovsky states that Stalin had been Lenin's chief; this may be a 
1789misunderstanding — Transl. 
1790
179133 
1792
1793
1794
1795quite inexplicable for the politicians and economists of all nations, insofar as nobody 
1796could guess its projection, was the most decisive precondition for the revolution. 
1797
1798G - This is a very curious theory. How do you explain it? 
1799
1800R - The Versailles reparations and economic limitations were not determined by the 
1801advantages of individual nations. Their arithmetical absurdity was so obvious that even 
1802the most outstanding economists of the victorious countries soon exposed this. France 
1803alone demanded as reparations a great deal more than the cost of all her national 
1804possessions, more than one would have had to pay if the whole of France had been 
1805converted into a Sahara; even worse was the decision to impose on Germany payment 
1806obligations which were many times greater that it could pay, even if it had sold itself 
1807fully and given over the whole of its national production. In the end the true result was 
1808that in practice Germany was forced to carry out a fantastic dumping so that it could pay 
1809something on account of reparations. And of what did the dumping consist? An 
1810insufficiency of consumer goods, hunger in Germany and in corresponding measure 
1811unemployment in the importing countries. And since they could not import there was also 
1812unemployment in Germany. Hunger and unemployment on both sides; all this were the 
1813first results of Versailles. . . Was this treaty revolutionary or not? Even more was done: 
1814one undertook an equal control in the international plane. Do you know what that 
1815undertaking represents in the revolutionary plane? It means to impose an anarchical 
1816absurdity to force every national economy to produce in sufficient volume all that it 
1817needs, while assuming that to attain that one does not have to take account of climate, 
1818natural riches and also the technical education of directors and workers. The means for 
1819compensation for inborn inequalities of soil, climate, availability of minerals, oil, etc., 
1820etc. in various national economies, were always the circumstance that poor countries had 
1821to work more. This means that they had to exploit more deeply the capacities of the 
1822working force in order to lessen the difference which arises from the poverty of the soil; 
1823and to this are added a number of other inequalities which had to be compensated by 
1824similar measures, let us take the example of industrial equipment. I shall not expand the 
1825problem further, but the control of the working day carried through by the League of 
1826Nations on the basis of an abstract principle of the equality of the working day, was a 
1827reality in the context of an unchanged International Capitalist system of production and 
1828exchange and established economic inequality, since here we had to deal with an 
1829indifference to the aim of work, which is a sufficient production. The immediate result of 
1830this was an insufficiency of production, compensated by imports from countries with a 
1831sufficient natural economy and an industrial self-sufficiency: insofar as Europe had gold, 
1832that import was paid by gold. Then came the apparent boom in America which 
1833exchanged its immense production for gold and gold certificates, of which there was 
1834plenty. On the model of any anarchy of production there appeared at that period an 
1835unheard-of financial anarchy. "They" took advantage of it on the pretext of helping it 
1836with thr aid of another and still greater anarchy: the inflation of the official money (cash) 
1837and the a hundred times greater inflation of their own money, credit money, i.e. false 
1838money. Remember how systematically there came devaluation in many countries; the 
1839destruction of the value of money in Germany, the American crisis and its pheno- 
1840
1841
1842
184334 
1844
1845
1846
1847menal consequences..., a record unemployment; more than thirty million unemployed in 
1848Europe and USA alone. Well, did not the Versailles Peace Treaty and its League of 
1849Nations serve as a revolutionary pre-condition? 
1850
1851G - This could have happened even if not intended. Could you not prove to me why 
1852the revolution and Communism retreat before logical deductions; and more than that: 
1853they oppose fascism which has conquered in Spain and Germany... What can you tell 
1854me? 
1855
1856R - I shall tell you that only in the case of the non-recognition of "Them" and their 
1857aims you would be right. . ., but you must not forget about their existence and aims, and 
1858also the fact that in the USSR power is in the hands of Stalin. 
1859
1860G - I do not see the connexion here.... 
1861
1862R - Because you do not want to: you have more than sufficient deductive talents 
1863and capabilities of reasoning. I repeat again: for us Stalin is not a Communist, but a 
1864Bonapartist. 
1865
1866G - So what? 
1867
1868R - We do not wish that the great preconditions which we had created at Versailles 
1869for the triumph of the Communist revolution in the world, which, as you see, have 
1870become a gigantic reality, would serve the purpose of bringing victory to Stalin's 
1871Bonapartism. . . Is that sufficiently clear for you? Everything would have been different if 
1872in this case Trotsky had been the dictator of the USSR; that would have meant that 
1873"They" would have been the chiefs of International Communism. 
1874
1875G - But surely fascism is totally anti-Communist, as in relation to the Trotsky ist 
1876and the Stalinist Communism. . . and if the power which you ascribe to "Them" is so 
1877great, how is it that they were unable to avoid this? 
1878
1879R - Because it were precisely "They" who gave Hitler the possibility of triumphing. 
1880
1881G - You exceed all the boundaries of absurdity. 
1882
1883R - The absurd and the miraculous become mixed as the result of a lack of culture. 
1884Listen to me. I have already admitted the defeat of the opposition. "They" saw in the end 
1885that Stalin cannot be overthrown by a coup d'etat and their historical experience 
1886suggested to them the decision of a repetition (repris) with Stalin of that which had been 
1887done with the Tsar. There was here one difficulty, which seemed to us insuperable. In the 
1888whole of Europe there was not a single aggressor-State. Not one of them was 
1889geographically well placed and had an army sufficient for an attack on Russia. If there 
1890was no such country, then "They" had to create it. Only Germany had the corresponding 
1891population and positions suitable for an attack on the USSR, and it was capable of 
1892defeating Stalin; you can understand that the Weimar republic had not been invented as 
1893an aggressor either politically or economically; on the contrary, it was suited to an 
1894invasion. On the horizon of a hungry Germany there sparkled the meteor of Hitler. A pair 
1895of penetrating eyes fixed their attention on it. The world was the witness to his lightning 
1896rise. I shall not say that all of it was the work of our hands, no. His rise, uninterruptedly 
1897increasing in extent, took place as the result of the Revolutionary-Communist economy 
1898of Versailles. Versailles had had in mind not the creation of preconditions for the triumph 
1899of 
1900
1901
1902
190335 
1904
1905
1906
1907Hitler, but for the proletarization of Germany, for unemployment and hunger, as the 
1908result of which there should have triumphed the Communist revolution. But insofar as, 
1909thanks to the existence of Stalin at the head of the USSR and the International, the latter 
1910did not succeed, and as a result of an unwillingness to give up Germany to Bonapartism, 
1911these preconditions were somewhat abated in the Davis and Young Plans, in expectation 
1912that meanwhile the opposition would come to power in Russia. . ., but that, too, did not 
1913happen; but the existence of revolutionary preconditions had to produce its results. The 
1914economic predetermination of Germany would have forced the proletariat into 
1915revolutionary actions. Through the fault of Stalin the Social-International revolution had 
1916to be held up and the German proletariat sought inclusion in the National-Socialist 
1917revolution. This was dialectical, but given all the preconditions and according to common 
1918sense the National-Socialist revolution could never have triumphed there. That was not 
1919yet all. It was necessary that the Trotskyists and Socialists should divide the masses with 
1920an already awakened and whole class consciousness — in accordance with instructions. 
1921With this business we concerned ourselves. But even more was needed: In 1929, when 
1922the National-Socialist Party began to experience a crisis of growth and it had insufficient 
1923financial resources, "They" sent their ambassador there. I even know his name: it was 
1924one of the Warburgs. In direct negotiations with Hitler they agreed as to the financing of 
1925the National-Socialist Party, and the latter received in a couple of years millions of 
1926Dollars, sent to it from Wall Street, and millions of Marks from German financiers 
1927through Schacht; the upkeep of the S.A. and S.S. and also the financing of the elections 
1928which took place, which gave Hitler power, are done on the Dollars and Marks sent by 
1929"Them." 
1930
1931G - Those who, according to you, want to achieve full Communism, arm Hitler, 
1932who swears that he will uproot the first Communist nation. This, if one is to believe you, 
1933is something very logical for the financiers. 
1934
1935R - You again forget the Stalinist Bonapartism. Remember that against Napoleon, 
1936the strangler of the French revolution, who stole its strength, there stood the obj ective 
1937revolutionaries — Louis XVIII, Wellington, Metternich and right up to the Tsar- 
1938Autocrat. . . This is 22 carat, according to the strict Stalinist doctrine. You must know by 
1939heart his theses about colonies with regard to imperialistic countries. Yes, according to 
1940him the Kings of Afghanistan and Egypt are objectively Communists owing to their 
1941struggle against His Britannic Majesty; why cannot Hitler be objectively Communist 
1942since he is fighting against the autocratic "Tsar Koba I"? (Meaning Stalin — Transl.) 
1943After all there is Hitler with his growing military power, and he already extends the 
1944boundaries of the Third Reich, and in future will do more. . . to such an extent as to have 
1945enough strength and possibilities to attack and fully destroy Stalin. . . Do you not observe 
1946the general sympathy of the Versailles wolves, who limit themselves only to a weak 
1947growl? Is this yet another chance, accident? Hitler will invade the USSR and as in 1917, 
1948when defeat suffered by the Tsar then gave us the opportunity of overthrowing him, so 
1949the defeat of Stalin will help us to remove him. . . Again the hour of the world revolution 
1950will strike. Since the democratic states, at present put to sleep, will help to bring about 
1951the general change at that moment, when Trotsky will take power into his hands, as 
1952during the Civil War. Hitler will attack from the West, his generals will rise 
1953
1954
1955
195636 
1957
1958
1959
1960and liquidate him. . . Now tell me, was not Hitler objectively a Communist? Yes or no? 
1961
1962G - I do not believe in fairy tales or miracles. . . 
1963
1964R - Well if you do not want to believe that "They" are able to achieve that which 
1965they had already achieved, then prepare to observe an invasion of the USSR and the 
1966liquidation of Stalin within a year. You think this is a miracle or an accident, well then 
1967prepare to see and experience that. . . But are you really able to refuse to believe that of 
1968which I have spoken, though this is still only a hypothesis? You will begin to act in this 
1969direction only at that moment when you will begin to see the proofs in the light of my 
1970talk. 
1971
1972G - All right, let us talk in the form of a supposition. What will you say? 
1973
1974R - You yourself had drawn attention to the coincidence of opinions, which took 
1975place between us. We are not at the moment interested in the attack on the USSR, since 
1976the fall of Stalin would presuppose the destruction of Communism, the existence of 
1977which interests us despite the circumstance that it is formal, as that gives us the certainty 
1978that we shall succeed in taking it over and then converting it into real Communism. I 
1979think that I have given you the position at the moment quite accurately. 
1980
1981G - Splendid, the solution. . . 
1982
1983R - First of all we must make sure that there would be no potential possibility of an 
1984attack by Hitler. 
1985
1986G - If, as you confirm, it were "They" who made him Fuhrer, then they have power 
1987over him and he must obey them. 
1988
1989R - Owing to the fact that I was in a hurry I did not express myself quite correctly 
1990and you did not understand me well. If it is true that "They" financed Hitler, then that 
1991does not mean that they disclosed to him their existence and their aims. The ambassador 
1992Warburg presented himself under a false name and Hitler did not even guess his race, he 
1993also lied regarding whose representative he was. He told him that he had been sent by the 
1994financial circles of Wall Street who were interested in financing the National-Socialist 
1995movement with the aim of creating a threat to France, whose governments pursue a 
1996financial policy which provokes a crisis in the USA. 
1997
1998G - And Hitler believed it? 
1999
2000R - We do not know. That was not so important, whether he did or did not believe 
2001our explanations; our aim was to provoke a war. . ., and Hitler was war. Do you now 
2002understand? 
2003
2004G - I understand. Consequently I do not see any other way of stopping him as the 
2005creation of a coalition of the USSR with the democratic nations, which would be capable 
2006of frightening Hitler. I think he will not be able to attack simultaneously all the countries 
2007of the world. The most would be — each in turn. 
2008
2009R - Does not a simpler solution come to your mind. . ., I would say — a counter- 
2010revolutionary one? 
2011
2012G - To avoid war against the USSR? 
2013
2014
2015
201637 
2017
2018
2019
2020R - Shorten the phrase by half. . . and repeat with me "avoid war". . . is that not an 
2021absolutely counter-revolutionary thing? Every sincere Communist imitating his idol 
2022Lenin and the greatest revolutionary strategists must always wish for war. Nothing is so 
2023effective in bringing nearer the victory of revolution as war. This is a Marxist-Leninist 
2024dogma, which you must preach. Now further: Stalin's National-Communism, this type of 
2025Bonapartism, is capable of blinding the intellect of the most pure-blooded Communists, 
2026right up to the point at which it prevents their seeing that the transformation into which 
2027Stalin has fallen, i.e., that he subjects the revolution to the State, and not the State to the 
2028revolution, it would be correct. . . 
2029
2030G - Your hate of Stalin blinds you and you contradict yourself. Have we not agreed 
2031that an attack on the USSR would not be welcome? 
2032
2033R - But why should war be necessarily against the Soviet Union? 
2034
2035G - But on what other country could Hitler make war? It is sufficiently clear that he 
2036would direct his attack on the USSR, of this he speaks in his speeches. What further 
2037proofs do you need? 
2038
2039R - If you, the people from the Kremlin, consider it to be quite definite and not 
2040debatable, then why did you provoke the Civil War in Spain. Do not tell me that it was 
2041done for purely revolutionary reasons. Stalin is incapable of carrying out in practice a 
2042single Marxist theory. If there were revolutionary considerations here, then it would not 
2043be right to sacrifice in Spain so many excellent international revolutionary forces. This is 
2044the country which is furthest from the USSR, and the most elementary strategic education 
2045would not have allowed the loss of these forces. . . How would Stalin be able in case of 
2046conflict to supply and render military help to a Spanish Soviet republic? But this was 
2047correct. There we have an important strategic point, a crossing of opposing influences of 
2048the Capitalist States. . ., it might have been possible to provoke a war between them. I 
2049admit that theoretically this may have been right, but in practice — no. You already see 
2050how the war between the democratic Capitalist and fascist States did not begin. And now 
2051I shall tell you: if Stalin thought that he was capable of himself creating an excuse 
2052sufficient in order to provoke a war, in which the Capitalist States would have had to 
2053fight among themselves, then why does he not at least admit, if only theoretically, that 
2054others too can achieve the same thing, which did not seem impossible to him?. . . 
2055
2056G - If one is to agree with your assumptions then one can admit this hypothesis. 
2057
2058R - That means that there is yet a second point of agreement between us: the first — 
2059that there must be no war against the USSR, the second — that it would be well to 
2060provoke it between the bourgeois States. 
2061
2062G - Yes, I agree. Is that your personal opinion, or "Theirs"? 
2063
2064R - I express it as my opinion. I have no power and no contact with "Them," but I 
2065can confirm that in these two points it coincides with the view of the Kremlin. 
2066
2067G - That is the most important thing and for that reason it is important to establish 
2068this beforehand. By the way, I would also like to know on what you base yourself in your 
2069confidence that "They" approve this. 
2070
2071
2072
207338 
2074
2075
2076
2077R. If I had the time in order to explain their full scheme, then you would already 
2078know about the reasons for their approval. At the present moment I shall condense them 
2079to three: 
2080
2081G - Just which? 
2082
2083R - One is that which I had already mentioned. Hitler, this uneducated and 
2084elementary man, has restored thanks to his natural intuition and even against the technical 
2085opinion of Schacht, an economic system of a very dangerous kind. Being illiterate in all 
2086economic theories and being guided only by necessity he removed, as we had done it in 
2087the USSR, the private and international capital. That means that he took over for himself 
2088the privilege of manufacturing money, and not only physical moneys, but also financial 
2089ones; he took over the untouched machinery of falsification and put it to work for the 
2090benefit of the State. He exceeded us, as we, having abolished it in Russia, replaced it 
2091merely by this crude apparatus called State Capitalism; this was a very expensive triumph 
2092in view of the necessities of pre-revolutionary demagogy. . . Here I give you two real facts 
2093for comparison. I shall even say that Hitler had been lucky; he had almost no gold and for 
2094that reason he was not tempted to create a gold reserve. Insofar as he only possessed a 
2095full monetary guarantee of technical equipment and colossal working capacity of the 
2096Germans, his "old reserve" was technical capacity and work..., something so completely 
2097counter-revolutionary that, as you already see, he has by means of magic, as it were, 
2098radically eliminated unemployment among more than seven million technicians and 
2099workers. 
2100
2101G - Thanks to increased re-armament. 
2102
2103R - What does your re-armament give? If Hitler reached this despite all the 
2104bourgeois economists who surround him, then he was quite capable, in the absence of the 
2105danger of war, of applying his system also to peaceful production. . . Are you capable of 
2106imagining what would have come of this system if it had infected a number of other 
2107States and brought about the creation of a period of autarky. . . For example the 
2108Commonwealth. If you can, then imagine its counter-revolutionary functions... The 
2109danger is not yet inevitable, as we have had luck in that Hitler restored his system not 
2110according to some previous theory, but empirically, and he did not make any formulation 
2111of a scientific kind. This means that insofar as he did not think in the light of a deductive 
2112process based on intelligence, he has no scientific terms or a formulated doctrine; yet 
2113there is a hidden danger as at any moment there can appear, as the consequence of 
2114deduction, a formula. This is very serious. Much more so that all the external and cruel 
2115factors in National-Socialism. We do not attack it in our propaganda as it could happen 
2116that through theoretical polemics we would ourselves provoke a formulation and 
2117systematization of this so decisive economic doctrine." There is only one solution — war. 
2118
2119
2120
2121Rakovsky is wrong, as he mentions in "Mein Kampf" Hitler had read the works of Gottfried Feder 
2122— Transl. 
2123
2124The problem of a scientific formulation of this question and the propounding of a corresponding 
2125programme has engaged the active attention of the publishers of this book and their associates for some 
2126years. Their conclusion have been published. In the translator's book "The Struggle for World Power," 
2127second edition 1963, p. 79 a full solution of the monetary problem is set out, and on p. 237 there is a full 
2128economic, political and social programme. These conclusions can be obtained on application. 
2129
213039 
2131
2132
2133
2134R - If the Termidor triumphed in the Soviet revolution then this happened as the 
2135result of the existence of the former Russian nationalism. Without such a nationalism 
2136Bonapartism would have been impossible. And if that happened in Russia, where 
2137nationalism was only embryonic in the person of the Tsar, then what obstacles must 
2138Marxism meet in the fully developed nationalism of Western Europe? Marx was wrong 
2139with respect to the advantages for the success of the revolution. Marxism won not in the 
2140most industrialized country, but in Russia, where the proletariat was small. Apart from 
2141other reasons our victory here is explained by the fact that in Russia there was no real 
2142nationalism, and in other countries it was in its full apogee. You see how it is reborn 
2143under this extraordinary power of fascism, and how infectious it is. You can understand 
2144that apart from that it can benefit Stalin, the need for the destruction of nationalism is 
2145alone worth a war in Europe. 
2146
2147G - In sum you have set out, Rakovsky, one economic and one political reason. 
2148Which is the third? 
2149
2150R - That is easy to guess. We have yet another reason, a religious one. Communism 
2151cannot be the victor if it will not have suppressed the still living Christianity. History 
2152speaks very clearly about this: the permanent revolution required seventeen centuries in 
2153order to achieve its first partial victory — by means of the creation of the first split in 
2154Christendom. In reality Christianity is our only real enemy, since all the political and 
2155economic phenomena in the bourgeois States are only its consequences. Christianity, 
2156controlling the individual, is capable of annulling the revolutionary proj ection of the 
2157neutral Soviet or atheistic State by choking it and, as we see it in Russia, things have 
2158reached the point of the creation of that spiritual nihilism which is dominant in the ruling 
2159masses, which have, nevertheless, remained Christian: this obstacle has not yet been 
2160removed during twenty years of Marxism. Let us admit in relation to Stalin that towards 
2161religion he was not Bonapartistic. We would not have done more than he and would have 
2162acted in the same way. And if Stalin had dared, like Napoleon, to cross the Rubicon of 
2163Christianity, then his nationalism and counter-revolutionary power would have been 
2164increased a thousand-fold. In addition, if this had happened then so radical a difference 
2165would have made quite impossible any collaboration in anything between us and him, 
2166even if this were to be only temporary and objective. . . like the one you can see becoming 
2167apparent to us. 
2168
2169G - And so I personally consider that you have given a definition of three 
2170fundamental points, on the basis of which a plan can be made. That is what I am in 
2171agreement about with you for the present. But I confirm to you my mental reservations, 
2172i.e. my suspicion in relation to all that which you have said concerning people, 
2173organizations and facts. Now continue to follow the general lines of your plan. 
2174
2175R - Yes, now this moment has arrived. But only a preliminary qualification: I shall 
2176speak on my own responsibility. I am responsible for the interpretation of those 
2177preceding points in the sense in which "They" understand them, but I admit that "They" 
2178may consider another plan to be more effective for the attainment of the three aims, and 
2179one quite unlike that which I shall now set out. Bear that in mind. 
2180
2181G - Very well, we shall bear it in mind. Please speak. 
2182
2183
2184
218540 
2186
2187
2188
2189R - We shall simplify. Insofar as the object is missing for which the German 
2190military might had been created - to give us power in the USSR - the aim now is to bring 
2191about an advance on the fronts and to direct the Hitlerist advance not towards the East, 
2192but the West. 
2193
2194G - Exactly. Have you thought of the practical plan of realization? 
2195
2196R - I had had more than enough time for that at the Lubianka. I considered. So 
2197look: if there were difficulties in finding mutually shared points between us and all else 
2198took its normal course, then the problems comes down to again trying to establish that in 
2199which there is similarity between Hitler and Stalin. 
2200
2201G - Yes, but admit that all this is problematical. 
2202
2203R - But not insoluble, as you think. In reality problems are insoluble only when 
2204they include dialectical subjective contradictions; and even in that case we always 
2205consider possible and essential a synthesis, overcoming the "morally-impossible" of 
2206Christian metaphysicians. 
2207
2208G - Again you begin to theorize. 
2209
2210R - As the result of my intellectual discipline — this is essential for me. People of a 
2211big culture prefer to approach the concrete through a generalization, and not the other 
2212way round. With Hitler and with Stalin one can find common ground, as, being very 
2213different people, they have the same roots; if Hitler is sentimental to a pathological 
2214degree, but Stalin is normal, yet both of them are egoists: neither one of them is an 
2215idealist, and for that reason both of them are Bonapartists, i.e. classical Imperialists. And 
2216if just that is the position, then it is already not difficult to find common ground between 
2217them. Why not, if it proved possible between one Tsarina and one Prussian King. . . 
2218
2219G - Rakovsky, you are incorrigible. . . 
2220
2221R - You do not guess? If Poland was the point of union between Catherine and 
2222Frederick — the Tsarina of Russia and the King of Germany at that time, then why cannot 
2223Poland serve as a reason for the finding of common ground between Hitler and Stalin? In 
2224Poland the persons of Hitler and Stalin can coincide, and also the historical Tsarist 
2225Bolshevik and Nazi lines. Our line, "Their" line — also, as Poland is a Christian State 
2226and, what makes the matter even more complex, a Catholic one. 
2227
2228G - And what follows from the fact of such a treble coincidence? 
2229
2230R - If there is common ground then there is a possibility of agreement. 
2231
2232G - Between Hitler and Stalin?... Absurd! Impossible. 
2233
2234R - In politics there are neither absurdities, nor the impossible. 
2235
2236G - Let us imagine, as an hypothesis: Hitler and Stalin advance on Poland. 
2237
2238R - Permit me to interrupt you; an attack can be called forth only by the following 
2239alternative: war or peace. You must admit it. 
2240
2241G - Well, and so what? 
2242
2243R - Do you consider that England and France, with their worse 
2244
2245
2246
224741 
2248
2249
2250
2251armies and aviation, in comparison with Hitler's, can attack the united Hitler and Stalin? 
2252
2253G - Yes, that seems to me to be very difficult. . . unless America. . . 
2254
2255R - Let us leave the United States aside for the moment. Will you agree with me 
2256that as the result of the attack of Hitler and Stalin on Poland there can be no European 
2257war? 
2258
2259G - You argue logically; it would seem impossible. 
2260
2261R - In that case an attack or war would be useless. It would not call forth the mutual 
2262destruction of the bourgeois States: the Hitlerist threat to the USSR would continue in 
2263being after the division of Poland since theoretically both Germany and the USSR would 
2264have been strengthened to the same extent. In practice Hitler to a greater extent since the 
2265USSR does not need more land and raw materials for its strengthening, but Hitler does 
2266need them. 
2267
2268G - This is a correct view. . ., but I can see no other solution. 
2269
2270R - No, there is a solution. 
2271
2272G - Which? 
2273
2274R - That the democracies should attack and not attack the aggressor. 
2275
2276G - What are you saying, what hallucination! Simultaneously to attack and not to 
2277attack. . . That is something absolutely impossible. 
2278
2279R - You think so? Calm down. . . Are there not two aggressors? Did we not agree 
2280that there will be no advance just because there are two? Well... What prevents the attack 
2281on one of them? 
2282
2283G - What do you want to say by that? 
2284
2285R - Simply that the democracies will declare war only on one aggressor, and that 
2286will be Hitler. 
2287
2288G - Yes, but that is an unfounded hypothesis. 
2289
2290R - An hypothesis, but having a foundation. Consider: each State which will have 
2291to fight with a coalition of enemy States has as its main strategic objective to destroy 
2292them separately one after another. This rule is so well known that proofs are superfluous. 
2293So, agree with me that there are no obstacles to the creation of such conditions. I think 
2294that the question that Stalin will not consider himself aggrieved in case of an attack on 
2295Hitler is already settled. Is that not so? In addition geography imposes this attitude, and 
2296for that reason strategy also. However stupid France and England may be in preparing to 
2297fight simultaneously against two countries, one of which wants to preserve its neutrality, 
2298while the other, even being alone, represents for them a serious opponent, from where 
2299and from which side could they carry out an attack on the USSR? They have not got a 
2300common border; unless they were to advance over the Himalayas... Yes, there remains 
2301the air front, but with what forces and from where could they invade Russia? In 
2302comparison with Hitler they are weaker in the air. All the arguments I have mentioned 
2303are no secret and are well known. As you see, all is simplified to a considerable extent. 
2304
2305G - Yes, your arguments seem to be logical in the case if the conflict will be limited 
2306to four countries; but there are not four, but more, and neutrality is not a simple matter in 
2307a war on the given scale. 
2308
2309
2310
231142 
2312
2313
2314
2315R - Undoubtedly, but the possible participation of many countries does not change 
2316the power relationships. Weigh this in your mind and you will see how the balance will 
2317continue, even if others or even all European States come in. In addition, and this is very 
2318important, not one of those States, which will enter the war at the side of England and 
2319France will be able to deprive them of leadership; as a result the reasons which will 
2320prevent their attack on the USSR will retain their significance. 
2321
2322G - You forget about the United States. 
2323
2324R - In a moment you will see that I have not forgotten. I shall limit myself to the 
2325investigation of their function in the preliminary programme, which occupies us at 
2326present, and I shall say that America will not be able to force France and England to 
2327attack Hitler and Stalin simultaneously. In order to attain that the United States would 
2328have to enter the war from the very first day. But that is impossible. In the first place 
2329because America did not enter a war formerly and never will do so if it is not attacked. Its 
2330rulers can arrange that they will be attacked, if that will suit them. Of that I can assure 
2331you. In those cases when provocation was not successful and the enemy did not react to 
2332it, aggression was invented. In their first international war, the war against Spain, of the 
2333defeat of which they were sure, they invented an aggression, or, more correctly, "They" 
2334invented it. In 1914 provocation was successful. True, one can dispute technically if there 
2335was one, but the rule without exceptions is that he who makes a sudden attack without 
2336warning, does it with the help of a provocation. Now it is like this: this splendid 
2337American technique which I welcome at any moment, is subject to one condition: that 
2338aggression should take place at a suitable moment, i.e. the moment required by the 
2339United States who are being attacked; that means then, when they will have the arms. 
2340Does this condition exist now? It is clear that it does not. In America there are at present 
2341a little less than one hundred thousand men under arms and a middling aviation: it has 
2342only an imposing fleet. But you can understand that, having it, it can not persuade its 
2343allies to decide on an attack on the USSR, since England and France have preponderance 
2344only at sea. I have also proved to you that from that side there can be no change in the 
2345comparative strengths of the forces. 
2346
2347G - Having agreed with this, I ask you again to explain once more the technical 
2348realization. 
2349
2350R - As you have seen, given the coincidence of the interests of Stalin and Hitler 
2351with regard to an attack on Poland, all comes down to the formalization of this full 
2352similarity of aims and to make a pact about a double attack. 
2353
2354G - And you think this is easy? 
2355
2356R - Frankly, no. Here we need a diplomacy which is more experienced than that of 
2357Stalin. There ought to have been available the one which Stalin had decapitated, or the 
2358one which now decays in the Lubianka. In former times Litvinov would have been 
2359capable, with some difficulties, although his race would have been a great obstacle for 
2360negotiations with Hitler; but now this is a finished man and he is destroyed by a terrible 
2361panic; he is experiencing an animal fear of Molotov, even more than of Stalin. His whole 
2362talent is directed towards making sure that they should not think that he is a Trotskyist. If 
2363he were to hear of the necessity of arranging closer relations with Hitler, then that 
2364
2365
2366
236743 
2368
2369
2370
2371would be enough for him to manufacture for himself the proof of his Trotskyism. I do not 
2372see a man who is capable of this job; in any event he would have to be a pure-blooded 
2373Russian. I could offer my services for guidance. At the present moment I would suggest 
2374to the one who begins the talks, that they should be strictly confidential, but with great 
2375open sincerity. Given a whole wall of various prejudices only truthfulness can deceive 
2376Hitler. 
2377
2378G - I again do not understand your paradoxical expressions. 
2379
2380R - Forgive me, but this only appears to be so; I am forced by the synthesis to do 
2381so. I wanted to say that with Hitler one must play a clean game concerning the concrete 
2382and most immediate questions. It is necessary to shew him that the game is not played in 
2383order to provoke him into war on two fronts. For example, it is possible to promise him 
2384and to prove at the most suitable moment that our mobilization will be limited to a small 
2385number of forces, required for the invasion of Poland, and that these forces will not be 
2386great. According to our real plan we shall have to place our main forces to meet the 
2387possible Anglo French attack. Stalin will have to be generous with the preliminary 
2388supplies which Hitler will demand, chiefly oil. That is what has come to my mind for the 
2389moment. Thousands of further questions will arise, of a similar character, which will 
2390have to be solved so that Hitler, seeing in practice that we only want to occupy our part 
2391of Poland, would be quite certain of that. And insofar as in practice it should be just like 
2392that, he will be deceived by the truth. 
2393
2394G - But in what, in this case, is there a deception? 
2395
2396R - I shall give you a few minutes of time so that you yourself can discover just in 
2397what there is a deception of Hitler. But first I want to stress, and you should take note, 
2398that the plan which I have indicated here, is logical and normal and I think that one can 
2399achieve that the Capitalistic States will destroy each other, if one brings about a clash of 
2400their two wings: the fascist and the bourgeois. I repeat that the plan is logical and normal. 
2401As you have already been able to see, there is no intervention here of mysterious or 
2402unusual factors. In short in order that one should be able to realize the plan, "Their" 
2403intervention is not required. Now I should like to guess your thoughts: are you not now 
2404thinking that it would be stupid to waste time on proving the unprovable existence and 
2405power held by "Them." Is that not so? 
2406
2407G - You are right. 
2408
2409R - Be frank with me. Do you really not observe their intervention? I informed you, 
2410wanting to help you, that their intervention exists and is decisive, and for that reason the 
2411logic and naturalness, of the plan are only appearances. . . Is it really true that you do not 
2412see "Them"? 
2413
2414G - Speaking sincerely, no. 
2415
2416R - The logic and naturalness of my plan is only an appearance. It would be natural 
2417and logical that Hitler and Stalin would inflict defeat on each other. For the democracies 
2418that would be a simple and easy thing, if they would have to put forward such an aim, for 
2419them it would be enough that Hitler should be permitted, make note "permitted" to attack 
2420Stalin. Do not tell me that Germany could be defeated. If the Russian distances and the 
2421dreadful fear of Stalin and his henchmen of the Hitlerite axe and the revenge of their 
2422victims will not be enough 
2423
2424
2425
242644 
2427
2428
2429
2430in order to attain the military exhaustion of Germany, then there will be no obstacles to 
2431the democracies, seeing that Stalin is losing strength, beginning to help him wisely and 
2432methodically, continuing to give that help until the complete exhaustion of both armies. 
2433In reality that would be easy, natural and logical, if those motives and aims which are put 
2434forward by the democracies and which most of their followers believe to be the true ones, 
2435and not what they are in reality — pretexts. There is only one aim, one single aim: the 
2436triumph of Communism; it is not Moscow which will impose its will on the democracies, 
2437but New York, not the "Comintern," but the "Capintern" on Wall Street. Who other that 
2438he could have been able to impose on Europe such an obvious and absolute 
2439contradiction? What force can lead it towards complete suicide? Only one force is able to 
2440do this: money. Money is power and the sole power. 
2441
2442G - I shall be frank with you, Rakovsky. I admit in you an exceptional gift of talent. 
2443You possess brilliant dialectic, persuasive and subtle: when this is not enough for you, 
2444then your imagination has command of means in order to extend your colourful canvas, 
2445while you invent brilliant and clear perspectives; but all this, although it provokes my 
2446enthusiasm, is not enough for me. I shall go over to putting questions to you, assuming 
2447that I believe all that you have said. 
2448
2449R - And I shall give you replies, but with one single condition, that you should not 
2450add anything to what I shall say, nor deduct. 
2451
2452G - I promise. You assert that "They" hinder or will hinder a German-Soviet war, 
2453which is logical from the point of view of the Capitalists. Have I explained it correctly? 
2454
2455R - Yes, precisely so. 
2456
2457G - But the reality of the present moment is such that Germany has been permitted 
2458to re-arm and expand. This is a fact. I already know that in accordance with your 
2459explanation this was called forth by the Trotskyist plan, which fell through thanks to the 
2460"cleanings-out" now taking place; thus the aim has been lost. In the face of a new 
2461situation you only advise that Hitler and Stalin should sign a pact and divide Poland. I 
2462ask you: how can we obtain a guarantee that, having the pact, or not having it, carrying 
2463out, or not carrying out the partition, Hitler will not attack the USSR? 
2464
2465R - This cannot be guaranteed. 
2466
2467G - Then why go on talking? 
2468
2469R - Do not hurry. The magnificent threat to the USSR is real and exists. This is not 
2470an hypothesis and not a verbal threat. It is a fact and a fact which obliges. "They" already 
2471have superiority over Stalin, a superiority which cannot be denied. Stalin is offered only 
2472one alternative, the right to choose, but not full freedom. The attack of Hitler will come 
2473in any case of its own accord; "They" need not do anything to make it happen but only 
2474leave him the chance of acting. This is the basic and determining reality, which has been 
2475forgotten by you owing to your excessively Kremlin-like way of thinking. . . Egocentrism, 
2476Sir, egocentrism. 
2477
2478G - The right to choose? 
2479
2480R - I shall define it exactly once more, but shortly: either there will be an attack on 
2481Stalin, or there will come the realization of the plan I have indicated, according to which 
2482the European Capitalistic 
2483
2484
2485
248645 
2487
2488
2489
2490States will destroy each other. I drew attention to this alternative, but as you see it was 
2491only a theoretical one. If Stalin wants to survive then he will be forced to realize the plan 
2492which has been proposed by me and ratified by "Them." 
2493
2494G - But if he refuses? 
2495
2496R - That will be impossible for him. The expansion and re-armament of Germany 
2497will continue. When Stalin will be faced by this gigantic threat. . ., then what will he do? 
2498This will be dictated to him by his own instinct of self-preservation. 
2499
2500G - It seems that events must develop only according to the orders indicated by 
2501"Them." 
2502
2503R - And it is so. Of course, in the USSR to-day things still stand like this, but 
2504sooner or later it will happen like that all the same. It is not difficult to foretell and to 
2505suggest for carrying out something, if it is profitable for the person who must realize the 
2506matter, in the given case Stalin, who is hardly thinking of suicide. It is much more 
2507difficult to give a prognosis and to force to act as needed someone for whom that is not 
2508profitable, but who must act nevertheless, in the given case the democracies. T have kept 
2509the explanation for this moment to give a concrete picture of the true position. Reject the 
2510wrong thought that you are the arbiters in the given situation, since "They" are the 
2511arbiters. 
2512
2513G - "They" both in the first and the second case. . . Therefore we must deal with 
2514shadows? 
2515
2516R - But are facts shadows? The international situation will be extraordinary, but not 
2517shadowy; it is real and very real. This is not a miracle; here is predetermined the future 
2518policy. . . Do you think this is the work of shadows? 
2519
2520G - But let us see; let us assume that your plan is accepted. . . But we must have 
2521something tangible, personal, in order to be able to carry out negotiations. 
2522
2523R - For example? 
2524
2525G - Some person with powers of attorney and representation. 
2526
2527R - But for what? Just for the pleasure of becoming acquainted with him? For the 
2528pleasure of a talk? Bear in mind that the assumed person, in case of his appearance, will 
2529not present you with credentials with seals and crests and will not wear a diplomatic 
2530uniform, at least a man from "Them"; if he were to say something or promise, then it will 
2531have no Juridical force or meaning as a pact. . . Understand that "They" are not a State; 
2532"They" are that which the International was before 1917, that which it still is nothing and 
2533at the same time everything. Imagine to yourself if it is possible that the USSR would 
2534have negotiations with freemasonry, with an espionage organization, with the 
2535Macedonian Komitadgi or the Croatian Ustashi. Would not some Juridical agreement be 
2536written?. . . Such pacts as the pact of Lenin with the German General Staff, as the pact of 
2537Trotsky with "Them" — are realized without written documents and without signatures 
2538The only guarantee of their execution is rooted in the circumstance that the carrying out 
2539of that which has been agreed is profitable for the parties to the pact, this guarantee is the 
2540sole reality in the pact, however great may be its importance. 
2541
2542
2543
254446 
2545
2546
2547
2548G - From what would you begin in the present case? 
2549
2550R - Simple; I should begin already from to-morrow to sound out Berlin. . . 
2551
2552G - In order to agree about the attack on Poland? 
2553
2554R - I would not begin with that. . . I would display my willingness to yield and 
2555would hint about certain disappointments among the democracies, I would soft-pedal in 
2556Spain. . . This would be an act of encouragement; then I would drop a hint about Poland. 
2557As you see — nothing compromising, but enough so that a part of the OKW (German 
2558High Command — Transl.), the Bismarckists, as they are called, would have some 
2559arguments to put before Hitler. 
2560
2561G - And nothing more? 
2562
2563R - For the beginning, nothing more; this is already a big diplomatic task. 
2564
2565G - Speaking frankly, having in mind the aims which have been dominant in the 
2566Kremlin until now, I do not think that anyone would at present dare to advise such a 
2567radical change in international policy. I propose to you, Rakovsky, to transform yourself 
2568in imagination into that person at the Kremlin which will have to take the decision. . . On 
2569the basis only of your disclosures, arguments, your hypotheses and persuasion, as I see it, 
2570it would be impossible to convince anyone. I personally, after having listened to you and 
2571at the same time, I shall not deny it, having experienced a strong influence from your 
2572explanations, of your personality, have not for a single moment experienced the 
2573temptation to consider the German-Soviet pact to be something realizable. 
2574
2575R - International events will force with irresistible strength. . . 
2576
2577G - But that would be a loss of valuable time. Consider something concrete, 
2578something which I could put forward as a proof of your veracity and credibility. . . In the 
2579contrary case I should not dare to transmit your information about our conversation; I 
2580should edit it with all accuracy, but it would reach the Kremlin archives and stay there. 
2581
2582R - Would it not be enough to bring about that it is taken into consideration if 
2583someone, even in a most official manner, were to have a talk with some very important 
2584person? 
2585
2586G - It seems to me that this would be something real. 
2587
2588R - But with whom? 
2589
2590G - This is only my personal opinion, Rakovsky. You had mentioned concrete 
2591persons, big financiers; if I remember correctly, you had spoken about a certain Schiff, 
2592for example; then you mentioned another who had been the go-between with Hitler for 
2593the purpose of financing him. There are also politicians or persons with a big position, 
2594who belong to "Them" or, if you like, serve "Them." Someone like that could be of use 
2595to us in order to start something practical. . . Do you know someone? 
2596
2597R - I do not think it is necessary. . . Think: about what will you be negotiating? 
2598Probably about the plan which I have set out, is that not so? For what? At the present 
2599moment "They" need not do anything in this context; "Their" mission is "not to do." And 
2600for that reason you would not be able to agree about any positive action and could not 
2601demand it... Remember, consider well. 
2602
2603
2604
260547 
2606
2607
2608
2609G - Even if that is so, yet in view of our personal opinion there must be a reality, 
2610even if a useless one. . ., a man, a personality which would confirm the credibility of the 
2611power, which you ascribe to "Them." 
2612
2613R - I shall satisfy you, although I am sure of the uselessness of this. I have already 
2614told you that I do not know who is a part of "Them," but have assurances from a person 
2615who must have known them. 
2616
2617G - From whom? 
2618
2619R - From Trotsky. From Trotsky I know only that one of "Them" was Walter 
2620Rathenau, who was well known from Rapallo. You see the last of "Them" who occupied 
2621a political and social position, since it was he who broke the economic blockade of the 
2622USSR. Despite the fact that he was one of the biggest millionaires; of course, such also 
2623was Lionel Rothschild. I can with confidence mention only these names. Naturally I can 
2624name still more people, the work and personality of whom I determine as being fully 
2625"Theirs," but I cannot confirm what these people command or whom they obey. 
2626
2627G - Mention some of them. 
2628
2629R - As an institutions — the Bank of Kuhn, Loeb & Co., of Wall Street; to this bank 
2630belong the families of Schiff, Warburg, Loeb and Kuhn; I say families in order to point 
2631out several names, since they are all connected among themselves by marriages; then 
2632Baruch, Frankfurter, Altschul, Cohen, Benjamin, Strauss, Steinhardt, Blom, Rosenman, 
2633Lippmann, Lehman, Dreifus, Lamont, Rothschild, Lord, Mandel Morgenthau, Ezekiel, 
2634Lasky. I think that that will be enough names; if I were to strain my memory, then 
2635perhaps I would remember some more but I repeat, that I do not know who among them 
2636can be one of "Them" and I cannot even assert, that any one of them is definitely of their 
2637number; I want to avoid any responsibility. But I certainly think that any one of the 
2638persons I have enumerated, even of those not belonging to "Them," could always lead to 
2639"Them" with any proposition of an important type. Of course, independently of whether 
2640this or that person does or does not belong to "Them," one cannot expect a direct reply. 
2641The answer will be given by facts. That is the unchangeable tactic which they prefer and 
2642with which they force one to reckon. For example, if you would risk beginning 
2643diplomatic initiatives, then you would not need to make use of the method of a personal 
2644approach to "Them"; one must limit oneself to the expression of thoughts, the exposition 
2645of some rational hypothesis, which depends on unknown definite factors. Then it only 
2646remains to wait. 
2647
2648G - You understand that I have not got a card-index at my disposal at the moment, 
2649in order to establish all the men you have mentioned: I assume that they are probably 
2650somewhere far away. Where? 
2651
2652R - Most of them in the United States. 
2653
2654G - Please understand that if we were to decide to act, then we would have to 
2655devote much time to it. But the matter is urgent, and urgent not for us, but for you, 
2656Rakovsky. 
2657
2658R - For me? 
2659
2660G - Yes. for you. Remember that your trial will take place very soon. I do not 
2661know, but I think it will not be risky to assume that if all that had been discussed here 
2662were to interest the Kremlin, then it 
2663
2664
2665
266648 
2667
2668
2669
2670must interest them before you appear before the tribunal: that would be for you a decisive 
2671matter. I think it is in your personal interests that you should propose something quicker 
2672to us. The most important thing is to get proofs that you spoke the truth, and to do this 
2673not during a period of several weeks, but during several days. I think that if you were to 
2674succeed in this, then I could nearly give you fairly solid assurances concerning the 
2675possibility of saving your life. . . In the contrary case I answer for nothing. 
2676
2677R - In the end I shall take the risk. Do you know if Davis is at present in Moscow? 
2678Yes, the Ambassador of the United States. 
2679
2680G - I think he is; he should have returned. 
2681
2682R - Only an exceptional situation gives me the right, as I see it, against the rules, to 
2683make use of an official intermediary. 
2684
2685G - Therefore we can think that the American Government is behind all this. . . 
2686
2687R - Behind — no under all this. . . 
2688
2689G - Roosevelt? 
2690
2691R - What do I know? I can only come to conclusions. You are all the time obsessed 
2692with the mania of political espionage. I could manufacture, in order to please you, a 
2693whole history; I have more than sufficient imagination, dates and true facts in order to 
2694give it veracity in appearance, which would be close to looking obvious. But are not the 
2695generally known facts more obvious? And you can supplement them with your own 
2696imagination, if you wish. Look yourself. Remember the morning of the 24th October 
26971929. The time will come when this day will be for the history of the revolution more 
2698important than October, 1917. On the day of the 24th October there took place the crash 
2699of the New York Stock Exchange, the beginning of the so-called "depression," a real 
2700revolution. The four years of the Government of Hoover — are years of revolutionary 
2701progress: 12 and 15 millions on strike. In February, 1933 there takes place the last stroke 
2702of the crisis with the closing of the banks. It is difficult to do more than capital did in 
2703order to break the "classical American," who was still on his industrial bases and in the 
2704economic respect enslaved by Wall Street. It is well known that any impoverishment in 
2705economics, be it in relation to societies or animals, gives a flourishing of parasitism, and 
2706capital is a large parasite. But this American revolution pursued not only the one aim of 
2707increasing the power of money for those who had the right to use it, it pretended to even 
2708more. Although the power of money is political power, but before that it had only been 
2709used indirectly, but now the power of money was to be transformed into direct power. 
2710The man through whom they made use of such power was Franklin Roosevelt. Have you 
2711understood? Take note of the following: In that year 1929, the first year of the American 
2712revolution, in February Trotsky leaves Russia; the crash takes place in October... The 
2713financing of Hitler is agreed in July, 1929. You think that all this was by chance? The 
2714four years of the rule of Hoover were used for the preparation of the seizure of power in 
2715the United States and the USSR; there by means of a financial revolution, and here with 
2716the help of war and the defeat which was to follow. Could some good novel with great 
2717imagination be more obvious to you? You can understand that the execution of 
2718
2719
2720
272149 
2722
2723
2724
2725the plan on such a scale requires a special man, who can direct the executive power in the 
2726United States, who has been predetermined to be the organizing and deciding force. That 
2727man was Franklin and Eleanor Roosevelt. And permit me to say that this two-sexed being 
2728is not simply irony. He had to avoid any possible Delilah. 
2729
2730G - Is Roosevelt one of "Them"? 
2731
2732R - I do not know if he is one of "Them," or is only subject to "Them." What more 
2733do you want? I think that he was conscious of his mission, but cannot assert whether he 
2734obeyed under duress of blackmail or he was one of those who rule; it is true that he 
2735carried out his mission, realized all the actions which had been assigned to him 
2736accurately. Do not ask me more, as I do not know any more. 
2737
2738G - In case it should be decided to approach Davis, in which form would you do it? 
2739
2740R - First of all you must select a person of such a type as "the baron"; he could be 
2741useful... Is he still alive? 
2742
2743G - I do not know. 
2744
2745R - All right, the choice of persons is left to you. Your delegate must present 
2746himself as being confidential or not modest, but best of all as a secret oppositionist. The 
2747conversation must be cleverly conducted concerning that contradictory position into 
2748which the USSR has been put by the so-called European democracies, by their union 
2749against National-Socialism. This is the conclusion of an alliance with the British and 
2750French Imperialism, the contemporary real Imperialism, for the destruction of the 
2751potential Imperialism. The aim of the verbal expressions must be to conjoin the false 
2752Soviet position with an equally false one of American democracy. . . It also sees itself 
2753forced to support Colonial Imperialism for the defense of democracy within England and 
2754France. As you see, the question can be put onto a very strong logical foundation. After 
2755that it is already very easy to formulate an hypothesis about actions. The first: that neither 
2756the USSR, nor the United States are interested in European Imperialism and thus the 
2757dispute is brought down to the question of personal hegemony; that ideologically and 
2758economically Russia and America want the destruction of European Colonial 
2759Imperialism, be it direct or oblique. The United States want it even more. If Europe were 
2760to lose all its power in a new war, then England, not having its own forces, with the 
2761disappearance of Europe as a force, as power, would from the first day lean, with all its 
2762weight and with the whole of its Empire, speaking the English language, on the United 
2763States, which would be inevitable both in the political and economic sense. . . Analyze 
2764what you have heard in the light of the Left conspiracy, as one might say, without 
2765shocking any American bourgeois. Having got to this point, one could have an interval 
2766for a few days. Then, having noted the reaction, it will be necessary to move further. 
2767Now Hitler comes forward. Here one can point to any aggression: he is fully an aggressor 
2768and of this there can be no doubt. And then one can go over to asking a question: What 
2769common action should be undertaken by the United States and the Soviet Union in view 
2770of the war between the Imperialists, who want it? The answer could be — neutrality. One 
2771must argue again: yes, neutrality, but it does not depend on the wish of one side, but also 
2772of the aggressor. There can be a guarantee of neutrality only when the aggressor cannot 
2773attack or it does 
2774
2775
2776
277750 
2778
2779
2780
2781not suit him. For this purpose the infallible answer is the attack of the aggressor on 
2782another Imperialist State. From this it is very easy to go over to the expression of the 
2783necessity and morality, with a view to guaranteeing safety, for provoking a clash between 
2784the Imperialists, if that clash were not to take place of its own accord. And if that were to 
2785be accepted in theory, and it will be accepted, then one can regulate the question of 
2786actions in practice, which would be only a matter of technique. Here is a scheme: (1) A 
2787pact with Hitler for the division between us of Czechoslovakia and Poland (better the 
2788latter). (2) Hitler will accept. If he is capable of backing a bluff for the conquest, i.e. the 
2789seizure of something in alliance with the USSR, then for him there will be full guarantee 
2790in that the democracies will yield. He will be unable to believe their verbal threats as he 
2791knows that those who try to intimidate by war threats are at the same time partisans of 
2792disarmament and that their disarmament is real. (3) The democracies will attack Hitler 
2793and not Stalin; they will tell the people that although both are guilty of aggression and 
2794partition, but strategic and logical reasons force them to defeat them one by one: first 
2795Hitler and then Stalin. 
2796
2797G - But will they not deceive us with truth? 
2798
2799R - But how? Does not Stalin dispose of freedom of action in order to help Hitler in 
2800sufficient measure? Do we not put in his hands the possibility of continuing the war 
2801between the Capitalists until the last man and the last pound? With what can they attack 
2802him? The exhausted States of the West will already have enough on their hands with 
2803internal Communist revolution, which in the other case may triumph. 
2804
2805G - But if Hitler achieves a quick victory and if he, like Napoleon, mobilizes the 
2806whole of Europe against the USSR? 
2807
2808R - This is quite improbable! You forget about the existence of the United States. 
2809You reject the power factor, a greater one. Is it not natural that America, imitating Stalin, 
2810would on its part help the democratic States? If one were to co-ordinate "against the 
2811hands of the clock" the help to both groups of fighters, then thus there will be assured 
2812without failure a permanent extension of the war. 
2813
2814G - And Japan? 
2815
2816R - Is not China enough for them? Let Stalin guarantee them his non-intervention. 
2817The Japanese are very fond of suicide, but after all not to such an extent as to be capable 
2818of simultaneously attacking China and the USSR. Any more objections? 
2819
2820G - No, if it were to depend on me, then I would try . . . But do you believe that the 
2821delegate...? 
2822
2823R - Yes, I believe. I was not given the chance of speaking with him, but note one 
2824detail: the appointment of Davis became known in November, 1936; we must assume that 
2825Roosevelt thought of sending him much sooner and with that in mind began preliminary 
2826steps; we all know that the consideration of the matter and the official explanations of the 
2827appointment take more than two months. Apparently his appointment was agreed in 
2828August. . . And what happened in August? In August Zinoviev and Kamenev were shot. I 
2829am willing to swear that his appointment was made for the purpose of a new involvement 
2830of "Them' in the politics of Stalin. Yes, I certainly think so. With what an inner 
2831excitement must he have traveled, seeing how one after another 
2832
2833
2834
283551 
2836
2837
2838
2839there fall the chiefs of the opposition in the "purges" which follow one on another. Do 
2840you know it he was present at trial of Radeck? 
2841
2842G-Yes. 
2843
2844R - You will see him. Have a talk with him. He expects it already for many months. 
2845
2846G - This night we must finish; but before we part I want to know something more. 
2847Let us assume that all this is true and all will be carried out with full success. "They" will 
2848put forward definite conditions. Guess what they might be? 
2849
2850R - This is not difficult to assume. The first condition will be the ending of the 
2851executions of the Communists, that means the Trotskyists, as you call them. Then, of 
2852course, they will demand the establishment of several zones of influence, as I had 
2853mentioned. The boundaries which will have to divide the formal Communism from the 
2854real one. That is the most important condition. There will be mutual concessions for 
2855mutual help for a time, while the plan lasts, being carried out. You will see for example 
2856the paradoxical phenomenon that a whole crowd of people, enemies of Stalin, will help 
2857him, no they will not necessarily be proletarians, nor will they be professional spies. 
2858There will appear influential persons at all levels of society, even very high ones, who 
2859will help the Stalinist formal Communism when it becomes if not real, then at least 
2860objective Communism. Have you understood me? 
2861
2862G - A little; you wrap up such things in such impenetrable casuistry. 
2863
2864R - If it is necessary to end, then I can only express myself in this way. Let us see if 
2865I shall not be able yet to help to understand. It is known that Marxism was called 
2866Hegelian. So this question was vulgarized. Hegelian idealism is a widespread adjustment 
2867to an uninformed understanding in the West of the natural mysticism of Baruch Spinoza. 
2868"They" are Spinozists: perhaps the matter is the other way round, i.e. that Spinozism is 
2869"Them," insofar as he is only a version adequate to the epoch of "Their" own philosophy, 
2870which is a much earlier one, standing on a much higher level. After all, a Hegelian and 
2871for that reason also the follower of Spinoza, was devoted to his faith, but only 
2872temporarily, tactically. The matter does not stand as is claimed by Marxism, that as the 
2873result of the elimination of contradictions there arises the synthesis. It is as the result of 
2874the opposing mutual fusion, from the thesis and anti-thesis that there arises, as a 
2875synthesis, the reality, truth, as a final harmony between the subjective and objective. Do 
2876you not see that already? In Moscow there is Communism: in New York Capitalism. It is 
2877all the same as a thesis and anti -thesis. Analyze both. Moscow is subjective Communism, 
2878but Capitalism - objective - State Capitalism. New York: Capitalism subjective, but 
2879Communism objective. A personal synthesis, truth: the Financial International, the 
2880Capitalist-Communist one. "They." 
2881
2882
2883
2884The meeting had lasted about six hours. I once more gave some drug to Rakovsky. The 
2885drug it was obvious, worked well, although I was only able to observe this by certain 
2886symptoms of animation. But I think that Rakovsky would have spoken just the same in a 
2887normal condition. Undoubtedly the theme of the conversation concerned his speciality 
2888and he had the passionate will to espouse that, about which he spoke. Since, if all this is 
2889true then an energetic attempt had been made