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1COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
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4
5EXECUTIVE SESSION
6COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
7JOINT W/
8COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM AND OVERSIGHT,
9U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
10WASHINGTON, D.C.
11
12INTERVIEW OF:
13
14ANDREW McCABE
15
16Thursday, December 21, 2017
17
18Washington, D.C.
19
20The interview in the above matter was held in Room 2141, Rayburn
21House Office Building, commencing at 10:54 a.m.
22
23COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
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27COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
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29Chairman Goodlatte.
30McCabe.
31
32This is a transcribed interview of Andrew
33
34Chairman Gowdy and I requested this interview.
35
36Joint
37
38investigation by the House Committee on the Judiciary and the House
39Committee on Oversight and Government Reform to conduct oversight into
40the Department of Justice's investigation of former Secretary
41Clinton's handling of classified information and related matters.
42So, Mr. McCabe, would you please state your name and position at
43the FBI for the record?
44Mr. McCabe.
45
46Yes, sir.
47
48My name is Andrew McCabe, and I am the
49
50deputy director of the FBI.
51Voice.
52
53The microphone.
54
55Mr. McCabe.
56
57Sorry.
58
59Chairman Goodlatte.
60Mr. McCabe.
61
62Is that better?
63Yeah, that's good.
64
65My name is Andrew McCabe, and I am the deputy
66
67director of the FBI.
68Chairman Goodlatte.
69
70I want to thank you for appearing here
71
72today, and we appreciate your willingness to testify voluntarily.
73I'm Bob Goodlatte, chairman of the Committee on the Judiciary,
74and I'm joined today by several members of the Judiciary and Oversight
75and Government Reform Committees and by counsel for those committees.
76And I will now ask everyone else from the committees who is here in
77the room to introduce themselves as well, starting with members of the
78committees.
79Chairman Gowdy.
80Mr. Buck.
81
82Trey Gowdy.
83
84Ken Buck.
85COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
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89Mr. Ratcliffe.
90
913
92
93Mr. Meadows.
94
95John Ratcliffe.
96Mark Meadows.
97
98Ms. Jackson Lee.
99
100Sheila Jackson Lee.
101
102[Inaudible.]
103Mr. Cicilline.
104
105David Cicilline.
106
107Mr. Connolly.
108
109Gerry Connolly.
110
111Mr. Cummings.
112
113Elijah Cummings.
114
115[Inaudible.]
116Chairman Goodlatte.
117Okay.
118
119All right.
120
121Now, at this table -- before I ask the other people to
122
123introduce themselves -- at this table, we're to have three members of
124the majority from each committee, three members of the minority from
125each committee.
126So if you have more than six, take a seat, you're welcome to stay,
127take a seat, but only six at a time, and allow the gentleman from Ohio,
128Mr. Jordan, to have a seat at the table.
129So I'm still thinking I have more than six Democrats at the table.
130[Inaudible.]
131Chairman Goodlatte.
132
133No.
134
135The issue is that -- you're welcome to
136
137stay, but you sit in the audience because that's -- that's what the
138rules are for this.
139Mr. Cicilline.
140
141What rules?
142
143Chairman Goodlatte.
144
145The rules that the chairman of the two
146
147committees have established, that there will be six members at the
148table.
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153COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
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155Mr. Cicilline.
156Mr. Nadler.
157
158Okay.
159
160We can switch them around?
161
162Chairman Goodlatte.
163
164That's right.
165
166You can switch out at any
167
168time.
169Mr. Cummings.
170
171This is very important.
172
173So do what the chairman
174
175asks.
176Chairman Goodlatte.
177Mr. Cummings.
178
179I thank you for that.
180
181Sure.
182
183Chairman Goodlatte.
184
185Okay.
186
187Okay.
188
189can have up to six people ask questions.
190
191So this is important.
192
193You
194
195Other people can jump in
196
197during a questioner's 30 minutes, but we're not going to have more than
198six 30-minute sessions for either side.
199On our side, we're going to rotate between the two chairmen asking
200questions.
201
202Other members will interrupt us if they want to follow a
203
204line of question.
205
206You can do the same thing.
207
208You can do it with six
209
210people, you can do it with two people, however you want, but -Mr. Cummings.
211
212What about staff?
213
214Chairman Goodlatte.
215
216Staff will have to ask questions through the
217
218members.
219Mr. Cummings.
220
221That's not acceptable.
222
223We want to use our
224
22530 minutes, period, the way we want to use them.
226
227I've never heard of
228
229this.
230
231In other words, we want to -- we want staff -- we prepared for
232
233this.
234
235We've been up all night preparing for this.
236
237We got 48 hours
238
239notice, and we want our staff to be involved in this.
240Chairman Goodlatte.
241
242Well, they can be involved in it.
243
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248COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
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250Mr. Cummings.
251through.
252
253No.
254
255No.
256
257No.
258
259Not this stuff about going
260
261Now, come on.
262
263Chairman Goodlatte.
264
265So if you want a staff member to ask
266
267questions, then you'll vacate a seat, let them sit there, and ask with
268questions.
269
270And members can ask questions through them, but only the
271
272six members that you designate.
273Mr. Cummings.
274
275Okay.
276
277Wait a minute.
278
279So a staff person cannot
280
281ask Mr. McCabe a question.
282Chairman Goodlatte.
283Mr. Cummings.
284
285Yeah.
286
287Let's go off the record.
288Sure.
289
290[Discussion off the record.]
291Chairman Goodlatte.
292
293So let's ask those people who are here who
294
295are not Members of Congress to identify themselves.
296
297We'll go back on
298
299the record for that purpose.
300Mr. Cummings.
301
302We're back on the record now?
303
304Chairman Goodlatte.
305with Brandon.
306
307Yes.
308
309All right.
310
311We'll start over here
312
313We'll work our way around the room.
314
315Mr. Ritchie.
316
317Branden Ritchie.
318
319Ms. Husband.
320
321Shelley Husband, Judiciary Committee staff.
322
323Mr. Castor.
324Mr. Davis.
325
326Steve Castor with the Oversight Committee.
327Carlton Davis, Mr. Gowdy.
328
329Mr. Somers.
330Mr. Parmiter.
331
332Zach Somers with the Judiciary Committee.
333Robert Parmiter, Judiciary Committee.
334
335Mr. Breitenbach.
336
337Ryan Breitenbach, Judiciary Committee.
338
339Chairman Goodlatte.
340
341Back row here.
342
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349Mr. Rapallo.
350Ms. Kim.
351
352David Rapallo, Oversight Committee.
353
354Janet Kim, Oversight Committee.
355
356Ms. Shen.
357
358Valerie Shen, Oversight Committee.
359
360[Additional staff introductions were inaudible.]
361Mr. Apelbaum.
362
363Perry Apelbaum, Judiciary Committee.
364
365Ms. Sachsman Grooms.
366
367Susanne Sachsman Grooms, Oversight
368
369Committee.
370Mr. Hiller.
371
372Aaron Hiller, Judiciary Committee.
373
374Mr. Schools.
375Ms. Anderson.
376
377Scott Schools, Justice Department.
378
379Mr. Brower.
380
381Trisha Anderson, FBI.
382Greg Brower, FBI.
383
384.
385
386, special agent, director's detail.
387
388.
389
390, special agent, director's detail.
391
392Chairman Goodlatte.
393All right.
394
395Very good.
396
397The Federal Rules of Civil Procedure do not apply in
398
399this setting, but there are some guidelines that we follow that I'll
400go over.
401Our questioning will proceed in rounds.
402
403The majority will ask
404
405questions first for 30 minutes, then the minority will have the
406opportunity to ask questions for an equal period of time, if they
407choose.
408
409We will go back and forth in this manner until there are no
410
411more questions and the interview is over.
412As I noted earlier, Deputy Director McCabe is appearing today
413voluntarily.
414
415Accordingly, we anticipate that our questions will
416
417receive complete responses.
418
419To the extent that Mr. McCabe declines
420
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426
427to answer our questions or if counsel for the Department instructs him
428not to answer, we will consider whether a subpoena is necessary.
429Typically, we take a short break at the end of each hour of
430questioning.
431
432But if you would like to take a break apart from that,
433
434please let us know.
435
436We can also take a break for lunch at the
437
438appropriate point.
439As you can see, there is an official reporter taking down
440everything we say to make a written record, so we ask that you give
441verbal responses to all questions.
442Do you understand?
443Mr. McCabe.
444
445I do.
446
447Chairman Goodlatte.
448
449Thank you.
450
451So that the reporter can take down a clear record, we will try
452to limit questioning during each 30-minute round to one member or one
453committee counsel.
454
455However, we may need to deviate from that general
456
457rule at certain points.
458It's also important that we don't talk over one another or
459interrupt each other if we can help it.
460
461And that goes for everybody
462
463present at today's interview.
464Both committees encourage witnesses who appear for transcribed
465interviews to freely consult with counsel if they so choose, and you
466are appearing today with counsel.
467Could counsel please state your name and current position for the
468record?
469Ms. Anderson.
470
471Trisha Anderson, principal deputy general counsel
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4768
477
478for the FBI.
479Chairman Goodlatte.
480
481We want you to answer our questions in the
482
483most complete and truthful manner possible, so we will take our time.
484If you have any questions or if you do not understand one of our
485questions, please let us know.
486
487And if you honestly do not know the
488
489answer to a question or do not remember it, it is best not to guess.
490Please give us your best recollection.
491And it is okay to tell us if you learned information from someone
492else.
493
494Just indicate how you came to know the information.
495If there are things you don't know or can't remember, just say
496
497so, and please inform us who, to the best of your knowledge, might be
498able to provide a more complete answer to the question.
499Mr. McCabe, you should also understand that, although this
500interview is not under oath, you are required by law to answer questions
501from Congress truthfully.
502Do you understand that?
503Mr. McCabe.
504
505Yes, I do.
506
507Chairman Goodlatte.
508
509This also applies to questions posed by
510
511congressional staff in an interview.
512Do you understand this?
513Mr. McCabe.
514
515I do.
516
517Chairman Goodlatte.
518
519Witnesses who knowingly provide false
520
521testimony could be subject to criminal prosecution for perjury or for
522making false statements.
523Do you understand this?
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528COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
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530Mr. McCabe.
531
532I do.
533
534Chairman Goodlatte.
535
536Is there any reason you are unable to
537
538provide truthful answer to today's questions?
539Mr. McCabe.
540
541No.
542
543Chairman Goodlatte.
544
545Finally, I'd like to note that the content
546
547of what we discuss here today is confidential.
548
549It is not a classified
550
551briefing, but it is a confidential interview, and we ask that you not
552speak about what we discuss in this interview to anyone not present
553here today to preserve the integrity of our investigation.
554This confidentiality rule applies to everyone present in the room
555today, including members of both committees.
556That is the end of my preamble.
557Do you have any questions before we begin?
558Mr. McCabe.
559
560I do not.
561
562I would just like to say that there may be times in my responses,
563if the question you've asked me calls for a classified response, I will
564indicate that and indicate that I can't go into classified matters in
565an unclassified setting.
566Chairman Goodlatte.
567
568Thank you.
569
570And I'll remind all the members of the committee -- of the two
571committees, on both sides of the aisle -- that this is an investigation
572into matters separate and apart from what is being investigated by the
573House Intelligence Committee.
574
575It is not an investigation into matters
576
577being investigated by the special counsel, Mr. Mueller.
578
579And if
580
581questions are asked that go into matters that are beyond the scope of
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586COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
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588this investigation, we will instruct the witness not to answer the
589question.
590If the witness feels that the question is being answered that gets
591into the matters related to Mr. Mueller, you should advise us of that.
592And that is the one of the limitations set forth by the Department of
593Justice when they made you available as a witness.
594Do you understand that?
595Mr. McCabe.
596
597I do.
598
599Chairman Goodlatte.
600
601And I'm going to assume everyone else in the
602
603room understands that.
604Mr. Cummings.
605Mr. Cummings.
606
607Mr. Chairman, would you explain what you mean by
608
609"confidential," because I want to make sure that we don't violate this
610rule.
611
612I guess this is a Judiciary rule.
613
614But I want to make sure that
615
616we don't violate it.
617We're not talking about classified, but we are talking about,
618quote, "confidential."
619
620Would you explain that to our members so we're
621
622clear.
623Chairman Goodlatte.
624
625Yes.
626
627What happens in this room stays in this room.
628
629So if you know
630
631something from outside this room, you want to comment to somebody else,
632including members of the media, you can do that.
633
634But if you learn
635
636something in this room from this interview, it is confidential and
637cannot be shared outside of this room.
638
639And that applies to members
640
641on both sides of the aisle, and all the staff here as well.
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646COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
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648Is that clear?
649Mr. Cicilline.
650
651What is the basis for that assertion,
652
653Mr. Chairman?
654Chairman Goodlatte.
655
656The basis for that assertion is the basis
657
658for the Department agreeing to provide the witness to us.
659requested that it be a classified interview.
660
661They
662
663We said no, but it will
664
665be a confidential interview.
666Mr. Connolly.
667
668Mr. Chairman, does that extend to characterizing,
669
670not the content, but the tone, tenor, nature of this session?
671Chairman Goodlatte.
672Mr. Connolly.
673
674I would --
675
676Does that fall within the penumbra of your idea
677
678of confidential?
679Chairman Goodlatte.
680
681Well, first of all, there is a wide range
682
683here between -- you don't have to deny that you were here.
684say you were here, right?
685
686You can
687
688But if you go into detail about this, we
689
690will have to -- there is going to be a long series of interviews here
691with a number of witnesses.
692
693And if it appears that everything that
694
695is said in here appears in the news media, we will have to reduce the
696number of people who are participating in the process.
697I don't want to do that.
698
699I would prefer to have this open and
700
701have as many members -- in fact, all members of both committees are
702welcome to come and sit in.
703
704But we will change that if these -- this
705
706is an investigation, and investigations are not to be like a public
707hearing.
708Mr. Raskin.
709
710Mr. Chairman?
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715COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
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717Chairman Goodlatte.
718Mr. Raskin.
719
720Yes, sir?
721
722Will you state publicly that this was a, quote,
723
724confidential hearing?
725Chairman Goodlatte.
726
727Yes.
728
729All right.
730Oh, I'm sorry.
731
732I'm sorry.
733
734Yeah.
735
736It's an interview.
737
738It's
739
740a -- you can state it's a confidential interview.
741Mr. Connolly.
742
743Mr. Chairman.
744
745Can we say this is the start of the
746
747investigation?
748Chairman Goodlatte.
749
750No, the investigation started months ago,
751
752but this is the first interview.
753Mr. Connolly.
754
755The investigation started months ago, but this is
756
757the first interview part of that investigation.
758Chairman Goodlatte.
759
760Correct.
761
762Mr. Johnson of Georgia.
763
764When you say this is the first, this is
765
766the first interview of the investigation that began months ago, the
767scope of the particular investigation that this fits within, what is
768it?
769Chairman Goodlatte.
770
771Well, it's based upon a statement that
772
773Mr. Gowdy and I made back in October, so roughly 2 months ago, where
774we outlined the matters to be investigated by this joint effort.
775Mr. Cummings.
776other's time.
777
778I have one last question so we don't waste each
779
780You said that this is not about Russia.
781
782And you said
783
784that if questions go outside of whatever it is we're looking into, that
785you would say -- tell the witness he didn't have to testify.
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790COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
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792Tell us what this is about so that we will all know what our limits
793are.
794
795Other than that, we're like -- I mean, this is -- I mean, we're
796
797just on a wild goose chase.
798Chairman Goodlatte.
799
800What's going on?
801
802All right.
803
804This is about matters related
805
806to the Department of Justice's investigation into the decisions made
807by the Department during the 2016 and earlier investigation into the
808former Secretary of State and Democratic Presidential candidate's
809email matters and related matters.
810So, for example, the FBI's decision to publicly announce the
811investigation into Secretary Clinton's handling of classified
812information but not to publicly announce the investigation into
813campaign associates of then-candidate Donald Trump.
814
815The FBI's
816
817decision to notify Congress by formal letter of the status of the
818investigation, both in October and November of 2016.
819
820The FBI's
821
822decision to appropriate full decisionmaking in respect to charging or
823not charging Secretary Clinton to the FBI rather than the Department
824of Justice.
825
826And the FBI's timeline in respect to those charging
827
828decisions.
829Mr. Cummings.
830
831And is it okay -- going back to the
832
833confidentiality rule -- when I talk to the press, which I will, is it
834okay to say that it was limited to those things?
835Chairman Goodlatte.
836Mr. Cummings.
837
838Absolutely.
839
840Very well.
841
842Chairman Goodlatte.
843
844Mr. Chairman, do you have anything you want
845
846to add?
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851COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
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853Chairman Gowdy.
854
855No, sir.
856
857Chairman Goodlatte.
858Ms. Jackson Lee.
859
860All right.
861
862Mr. Chairman, is this -- in pursuit of the
863
864original point made in Judiciary of asking for a special counsel, are
865we looking for a resolution to be the appointment of a special counsel
866on these issues?
867Chairman Goodlatte.
868
869We have drawn no conclusions.
870
871purpose of the investigation.
872
873That's the
874
875As you know, I and others have called
876
877for the appointment of a special counsel to look into these matters,
878but that is a separate issue from actually conducting the investigation
879since a special counsel, as you know, has not been appointed.
880Ms. Jackson Lee.
881open door proceeding.
882
883So we can all come with the perspective of an
884I guess we can determine that.
885
886But as to our
887
888distinguished guest, we're not here to put him under a microscope to
889already meet what we want to do, which is the appointment of special
890counsel.
891
892When I say "we," what --
893
894Chairman Goodlatte.
895
896We are here to elicit facts and get to the
897
898truth.
899Ms. Jackson Lee.
900
901Thank you very much.
902
903Chairman Goodlatte.
904
905And with that, I will now turn it over to
906
907the chairman of the Oversight and Government Reform Committee,
908Mr. Gowdy, to begin the questions.
909Chairman Gowdy.
910
911Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
912
913Thank you, Deputy Director McCabe.
914From a procedural standpoint, who's our timekeeper so I'll know
915COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
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921who to look to?
922
923And I don't want to go over my 30 minutes.
924
925Chairman Goodlatte.
926Chairman Gowdy.
927
928The time is now 11:14.
929
930All right.
931
932Hopefully I can count on to you
933
934punch me when my 30 minutes is up.
935I want to start by thanking you for coming, and thank you for your
936service to our country.
937Two days ago, you and I spent, I guess, close to 8 hours together.
938Mr. McCabe.
939
940Yes, sir.
941
942Chairman Gowdy.
943Goodlatte said.
944
945And so I want to kind of amplify what Chairman
946
947I'm not going to ask you a single question about what
948
949special counsel is doing.
950
951I will support an objection by Chairman
952
953Goodlatte if you're asked by anyone questions about that.
954
955I'm not
956
957going to ask you any questions about the investigation into Russia's
958efforts to interfere with our 2016 election cycle.
959My interest in having this interview today, at least three of us
960used to work for the same employer you have, the Department of Justice.
9612016, for whatever reason, forced the Department to make
962difficult decisions.
963
964There were some difficult fact patterns in 2016.
965
966And I think it is important, I think any entity, but especially the
967Department of Justice, it is not too much to ask, "Tell me what your
968thought process was as you went into this decision, the conclusion you
969made."
970And so that's what my focus is going to be on.
971
972And I'm going to
973
974start chronologically, but that's not because I think it's most
975important.
976
977In fact, I don't think it -- I think something in the middle
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982is the most important.
983
98416
985
986But in fairness to you, I'm going to start
987
988chronologically, because I'm going to kind of bounce around.
989So I just want to make sure you understand not only what we're
990talking about today, but more importantly, what we're not talking about
991today.
992You were really gracious to give us a lot of your time 2 days ago
993and would have stayed longer had we had more questions.
994Mr. McCabe.
995
996Yes, sir.
997
998Chairman Gowdy.
999
1000And every Republican and Democrat that was in
1001
1002that room you made yourself available to.
1003
1004That is a separate
1005
1006investigation.
1007What I want to talk to you about today are other
1008decisions -- non-special counsel-related, non-Russia-related -- that
1009the Department found itself making or analyzing.
1010And quite candidly, Deputy Director McCabe, there was a time when
1011my colleagues on the other side of the aisle had some of the same
1012questions too.
1013
1014I hope they have them today.
1015
1016I'm confident they will.
1017
1018I hope they will.
1019But there was a time when lots of Members of Congress wanted to
1020better understand Director Comey's decision to have the July 5th press
1021conference.
1022
1023There was a time when lots of Members of Congress wanted
1024
1025to better understand the decision to, number one, write a letter, and
1026make that letter public.
1027
1028There was a time when Democrat Members of
1029
1030Congress wanted to better understand the decision to publicize some
1031investigations but not others.
1032
1033And I happen to think that the
1034
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103917
1040
1041Department of Justice and the FBI is big enough to answer even what
1042some may suggest are tough questions.
1043So that's my purpose today.
1044
1045And I want to start chronologically,
1046
1047and chronologically would be the decision to open an investigation
1048and/or matter, however you want to frame it, because that is also an
1049issue, what to call it, the decision to open a matter or an investigation
1050related to Secretary Clinton's email.
1051When was it made?
1052Mr. McCabe.
1053
1054Who made it?
1055
1056And why was it made?
1057
1058So you should first know that I was not a part of
1059
1060the Clinton email case at that time.
1061decision was made to open the case.
1062
1063So I cannot tell you why the
1064I was not -- I was not involved
1065
1066in that.
1067My understanding, from having been told sometime later, is that
1068we received a referral from the intelligence community IG and that the
1069decision flowed from that referral.
1070
1071But I can't give you any insight
1072
1073as to what people thought at that time, because I was not a part of
1074that process.
1075Chairman Gowdy.
1076
1077Is it unusual to receive a referral from the
1078
1079intelligence community?
1080Mr. McCabe.
1081
1082No.
1083
1084Chairman Gowdy.
1085
1086Is that the way other investigations have begun
1087
1088that you are more familiar with?
1089Mr. McCabe.
1090
1091We receive referrals from all sorts of entities,
1092
1093most of which go through the Department of Justice first and then are
1094sent along to us for consideration of investigative action.
1095COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
1096
109718
1098
1099COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
1100
1101Mr. Ratcliffe.
1102Chairman Gowdy.
1103Mr. Ratcliffe.
1104
1105Mr. Chairman?
1106Yes?
1107May I ask a question?
1108
1109Deputy Director, even though you were not involved in the decision
1110or have knowledge about when it was opened, can you confirm whether
1111or not you were the deputy director of the FBI at that time?
1112Mr. McCabe.
1113
1114I was not.
1115
1116I was, at that time, serving as the
1117
1118assistant director in charge of the Washington field office.
1119Mr. Ratcliffe.
1120Chairman Gowdy.
1121
1122Thank you.
1123Who would be the witnesses that might be able
1124
1125to shed more light on that initial decision, accepting the fact that
1126you were not part of it?
1127Mr. McCabe.
1128
1129So, of course, Director Comey.
1130
1131at that time was Mark Giuliano.
1132
1133The deputy director
1134
1135I believe the assistant director for
1136
1137counterintelligence was Coleman, right?
1138
1139Would be the assistant
1140
1141director of counterintelligence at that time.
1142Chairman Gowdy.
1143
1144Does the FBI have the authority to initiate an
1145
1146investigation even absent DOJ knowledge or approval?
1147"DOJ," I mean main Justice.
1148
1149And when I say
1150
1151Do you have to consult with a prosecutor
1152
1153before you open a matter like this?
1154Mr. McCabe.
1155
1156I mean, we open investigations all the time, right?
1157
1158This is a particularly sensitive investigation.
1159
1160So -- and when we
1161
1162open -- and I don't -- I shouldn't speculate, but when we open an
1163investigation that is qualified as a sensitive investigative matter,
1164that decision has to be reported to the Department of Justice.
1165COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
1166
116719
1168
1169COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
1170
1171Chairman Gowdy.
1172
1173So a sensitive matter is a specific designation
1174
1175within either the Bureau or main Justice.
1176Mr. McCabe.
1177
1178That's correct.
1179
1180Chairman Gowdy.
1181
1182And who makes the determination whether or not
1183
1184to identify something as sensitive.
1185Mr. McCabe.
1186
1187There's a series of criteria that would apply to
1188
1189assist in that determination.
1190
1191That analysis would be done likely at
1192
1193the division level, so by the assistant director of the respective
1194division and his leadership team.
1195Chairman Gowdy.
1196
1197And what are the ramifications or consequences
1198
1199of designating something sensitive?
1200
1201How would it be treated
1202
1203differently?
1204Mr. McCabe.
1205
1206There are a few ramifications, but it requires
1207
1208elevated levels of approval within the headquarters division.
1209
1210It
1211
1212requires a certain level of general counsel awareness and concurrence.
1213And then, as I've mentioned, it also requires a reporting -- there's
1214a reporting requirement to the Department I think within 30 days of
1215the opening of a sensitive investigative matter.
1216Chairman Gowdy.
1217
1218Do you know who within main Justice would have
1219
1220been part of that decisionmaking process?
1221Mr. McCabe.
1222
1223I do not.
1224
1225Chairman Gowdy.
1226
1227You said general counsel would be part of it on
1228
1229the Bureau side?
1230Mr. McCabe.
1231
1232That's right.
1233
1234Chairman Gowdy.
1235
1236Do you know who the general counsel for the
1237COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
1238
123920
1240
1241COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
1242
1243Bureau would have been at that time.
1244Mr. McCabe.
1245
1246The general counsel was James Baker.
1247
1248Chairman Gowdy.
1249
1250Again, and I don't want to ask you something
1251
1252you've already answered, but I'd rather do that than run the risk of
1253not asking.
1254Mr. McCabe.
1255
1256Yes, sir.
1257
1258Chairman Gowdy.
1259
1260Department of Justice attorneys would
1261
1262be -- would have been consulted given the sensitive nature, excepting
1263that in every investigation they are not.
1264Mr. McCabe.
1265
1266Is that accurate?
1267
1268Under normal circumstances, for a sensitive
1269
1270investigative matter, the Department would be consulted.
1271certainty be notified.
1272
1273They would
1274
1275I can't speak to how that process took place
1276
1277in this case because I was not a part of it.
1278Chairman Gowdy.
1279
1280In Bureau vernacular, what are the different
1281
1282options or alternatives on how to refer to something?
1283to it as an investigation?
1284
1285Do you refer
1286
1287Do you refer to it as a matter?
1288
1289Do you
1290
1291refer to it as an inquiry?
1292What are the words that are used within the Bureau to identify
1293what we all think of as investigations?
1294Mr. McCabe.
1295
1296Right.
1297
1298We have different levels of investigation that we authorize, but
1299they are all referred to as investigations, except the lowest level,
1300which we typically refer to as assessments.
1301Chairman Gowdy.
1302
1303So assessment is the lowest level.
1304
1305would we go from there, going up?
1306COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
1307
1308And where
1309
131021
1311
1312COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
1313
1314Mr. McCabe.
1315investigation.
1316
1317Going up you would go to a preliminary
1318
1319And then the highest level, which is the most common,
1320
1321is a full field investigation.
1322Chairman Gowdy.
1323
1324Do you know where the matter related to
1325
1326Secretary Clinton began?
1327
1328Did it begin as an assessment, or was
1329
1330it -- did it begin as a full field investigation?
1331Mr. McCabe.
1332
1333I don't know the answer to that.
1334
1335Chairman Gowdy.
1336
1337All right.
1338
1339And it's a little bit unfair of me
1340
1341to ask you, because you've already said you were not part of that.
1342When did you become part of it?
1343Mr. McCabe.
1344
1345I became -- I assumed oversight responsibility for
1346
1347the investigation in February of 2016.
1348Chairman Gowdy.
1349
1350What was the posture of the investigation at the
1351
1352time you assumed oversight responsibility?
1353Mr. McCabe.
1354
1355It had been open for several months.
1356
1357And they
1358
1359were -- you know, the team had been assembled and had been working at
1360headquarters for several months on the investigation.
1361Chairman Gowdy.
1362
1363Do you recall any members of the -- I think you
1364
1365used the word "team?"
1366Mr. McCabe.
1367
1368Yes.
1369
1370Chairman Gowdy.
1371Mr. McCabe.
1372director.
1373
1374Who would some of the team members be?
1375
1376At the highest levels, the team was, of course, the
1377
1378The deputy director.
1379
1380That was me as of February of 2016.
1381
1382The EAD at that time was Michael Steinbach.
1383The assistant director over counterintelligence was Bill
1384COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
1385
138622
1387
1388COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
1389
1390Priestap.
1391
1392Bill Priestap's deputy assistant now.
1393
1394He wasn't a deputy
1395
1396assistant director then, but -- I'm not sure what his title was at that
1397time.
1398But Peter Strzok was part of that team.
1399of that team.
1400of that team.
1401
1402was part of that team.
1403
1404was part
1405James Baker was part
1406
1407The director's chief of staff, James Rybicki, was
1408
1409frequently present for meetings or discussions about issues on that
1410investigation.
1411
1412Lisa Page was part of that team.
1413
1414And then, you know, you could -- there may have been other people
1415as needed.
1416This was kind of the leadership level that discussed and kind of
1417tracked and made the major decisions on the investigation.
1418
1419There was
1420
1421an investigative element of agents, analysts, and other, you know,
1422support folks, but I can't -- I can't provide the names of those folks
1423at this time.
1424Chairman Gowdy.
1425
1426Anything unusual about the way the Bureau
1427
1428staffed that case as opposed to other sensitive matters,
1429investigations?
1430Mr. McCabe.
1431
1432This was a unique investigation, and it was
1433
1434rather -- the normal course of business is that investigations are run
1435and managed by our field offices.
1436
1437And the staffing and the direction
1438
1439and the supervision of investigations is typically done at the field
1440level.
1441In rare circumstances, when we have a particularly sensitive
1442case, the decision is made to essentially manage that investigation
1443COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
1444
144523
1446
1447COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
1448
1449from headquarters, usually with the support of a field office that
1450provides investigators, analysts, whatever personnel you might need.
1451That's how this investigation was run.
1452And I know -- I'll say it just because I know it's been a point
1453of interest in the reports around the case.
1454
1455Although it is not an
1456
1457official terminology, in Bureau lore, dating back for long, long before
1458I came here, typically people in the FBI would refer to those cases,
1459those unique cases that are managed at headquarters rather than in the
1460field, as a headquarters special.
1461
1462That is not an official terminology,
1463
1464but it is one that people in the FBI have used for many, many years.
1465Chairman Gowdy.
1466
1467And it wouldn't be indigenous to her
1468
1469investigation either?
1470Mr. McCabe.
1471
1472No, sir?
1473
1474Chairman Gowdy.
1475
1476There are other investigations that were
1477
1478referred to that way?
1479Mr. McCabe.
1480
1481The investigation of Robert Hanssen is a good
1482
1483example.
1484
1485That investigation was -- you could refer to it as a Bureau
1486
1487special.
1488
1489It was run from headquarters by a special team of folks who
1490
1491were assembled because of their expertise, and it was managed out of
1492headquarters because of its sensitivity and because of the need to keep
1493the information about what was happening in the case limited to a very
1494small number of people.
1495Chairman Gowdy.
1496
1497All right.
1498
1499Chairman Goodlatte.
1500
1501You used a word that I wrote down.
1502
1503May I join that.
1504
1505You referred to having sometimes a principal field office
1506COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
1507
150824
1509
1510COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
1511
1512supporting that -- you referred to a principal field office as
1513supporting that investigation.
1514
1515Did that take place with regard to this
1516
1517matter?
1518Mr. McCabe.
1519
1520It did.
1521
1522Chairman Goodlatte.
1523Mr. McCabe.
1524
1525The Washington field office.
1526
1527Chairman Goodlatte.
1528Mr. McCabe.
1529
1530In what field office was it?
1531
1532Okay.
1533
1534So all here in Washington.
1535
1536Yes, sir.
1537
1538Chairman Goodlatte.
1539Chairman Gowdy.
1540
1541Thank you.
1542
1543Deputy Director, you used a word, because I
1544
1545wrote it down, and it was the word "unique," which I think means one
1546of a kind.
1547
1548I've got to go back to my old WordPack days.
1549
1550But I want
1551
1552to give you a chance to substitute another word for unique if it fit
1553into a smaller category of cases that were similar or if, in fact,
1554you -- the question I asked you was about the structure of this
1555investigation.
1556Mr. McCabe.
1557
1558Okay.
1559
1560Chairman Gowdy.
1561
1562And you used the word "unique."
1563
1564And I want to
1565
1566be fair.
1567Was it unique in the truest sense of the word, or was it similar
1568to other high profile, sensitive matters?
1569
1570Unusual, a small number,
1571
1572or truly unique?
1573Mr. McCabe.
1574
1575I think of this investigation as unique not compared
1576
1577to other investigations, but because of the facts that were involved.
1578I am not familiar with another case that presented quite the same
1579COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
1580
158125
1582
1583COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
1584
1585challenges and facts that we had in this one.
1586
1587So that's probably why
1588
1589I referred to it as unique.
1590If you're asking about running a -- managing a case in the way
1591that I've described from headquarters, that has certainly happened
1592before.
1593
1594It is a small number of cases.
1595
1596given time.
1597say.
1598
1599There may not be one at any
1600
1601There may be one or two at any given time.
1602
1603It's hard to
1604
1605But it is a small population of cases that I am aware of.
1606Chairman Gowdy.
1607
1608agents.
1609
1610Is it daily?
1611
1612The interaction between main Justice and Bureau
1613Hourly?
1614
1615Weekly?
1616
1617What is the interaction on a case like this between the
1618prosecutors and the line agents?
1619Mr. McCabe.
1620
1621So speaking to this case --
1622
1623Chairman Gowdy.
1624Mr. McCabe.
1625
1626Yes, sir.
1627
1628-- the folks that were working the case from our side
1629
1630of the street were in very frequent, I would say daily contact with
1631their colleagues at the Department of Justice.
1632Chairman Gowdy.
1633
1634Who were the prosecutors at main Justice that
1635
1636were assigned to assist in the investigation?
1637Mr. McCabe.
1638Division.
1639
1640So the case was handled out of the National Security
1641
1642There were two -- I guess I'll refer to them as line
1643
1644attorneys, but two attorneys within the National Security Division,
1645reported to -- their supervisor was an individual named David Laufman.
1646Mr. Laufman reported to George Toscas.
1647And that was, in my understanding, kind of the official
1648assigned -- folks who were assigned to the case.
1649COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
1650
1651There was very limited
1652
165326
1654
1655COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
1656
1657involvement at the leadership levels in the Department of Justice in
1658the case.
1659
1660I think John Carlin, who George Toscas normally reported
1661
1662to at that time, John Carlin was aware of the case, although I'm not
1663sure how often he was -- he was briefed on it.
1664
1665The Attorney General
1666
1667and the deputy attorney general were not involved in the day-to-day
1668management of the case during the period of my experience working it.
1669Chairman Gowdy.
1670
1671Anything unusual about the way that the main
1672
1673Justice structured, staffed this investigation as opposed to others?
1674Mr. McCabe.
1675
1676Yes.
1677
1678As I understand, and this was a decision that
1679
1680was made before I was involved in the case, but as it was explained
1681to me, the decision had been made that the Attorney General and the
1682deputy attorney general would not be involved in the day-to-day
1683oversight of this case as they would in a typical, you know,
1684significant, high-profile matter because of their -- the nature of
1685their political positions.
1686not involved.
1687
1688So they were not recused, but they were
1689
1690And Mr. Carlin occupied a somewhat similar status.
1691
1692Chairman Gowdy.
1693Mr. McCabe.
1694
1695So the AG at the time would have been Ms. Lynch?
1696
1697That's correct?
1698
1699Chairman Gowdy.
1700
1701And the deputy AG at the time would have been
1702
1703Ms. Yates?
1704Mr. McCabe.
1705
1706That's correct.
1707
1708Chairman Gowdy.
1709
1710And John Carlin would have been the head of the
1711
1712National Security Division?
1713Mr. McCabe.
1714
1715That's right.
1716
1717Chairman Gowdy.
1718
1719And so the person primarily responsible for any
1720COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
1721
172227
1723
1724COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
1725
1726day-to-day interaction would be whoever was right below John Carlin?
1727Mr. McCabe.
1728
1729I'm sorry.
1730
1731Chairman Gowdy.
1732
1733Could you give me that one again?
1734
1735The person -- if it's not Lynch and it's not
1736
1737Yates and it's not Carlin, who would be the most senior person at main
1738Justice that would have day-to-day involvement?
1739Mr. McCabe.
1740
1741George Toscas?
1742
1743Chairman Gowdy.
1744
1745Okay.
1746
1747You used the word "challenges," that
1748
1749this case created -- I think you used the word "challenges" to modify
1750the word "facts."
1751
1752Challenging set of facts to investigate.
1753
1754In what
1755
1756way?
1757Mr. McCabe.
1758
1759In many ways.
1760
1761We don't typically find ourselves in
1762
1763a position of investigating someone who's in the midst of an election
1764effort running for President.
1765
1766I think that's the -- certainly the
1767
1768first way that comes to mind.
1769Chairman Gowdy.
1770
1771So the status of the person that could be
1772
1773considered the object of the investigation is what distinguished it
1774as opposed to the underlying facts.
1775Mr. McCabe.
1776
1777No, I wouldn't say that.
1778
1779challenging aspects of the case.
1780
1781There were many
1782
1783Let me go back to the work that we
1784
1785were doing.
1786The investigation was, as you know, an effort to determine whether
1787classified material had traversed a personally -- a personal system,
1788a nongovernment IT system.
1789
1790So from a very nuts-and-bolts kind of
1791
1792practical matter, our first effort is to go back and essentially try
1793to reconstruct that system or any associated system and to determine
1794COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
1795
179628
1797
1798COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
1799
1800whether classified material had been -- had been -- had crossed those
1801systems.
1802All this is happening several years after those devices and those
1803systems had been, in many cases, taken out of use, destroyed, lost,
1804repurposed, what have you.
1805So from just a purely kind of forensic perspective, we had great
1806challenges in determining what sort of systems had been used and had
1807been exposed -- may have been exposed to this material.
1808
1809And then, of
1810
1811course, reconstructing that in the best way that we could.
1812The next challenge was in identifying, locating, and recovering
1813all of the email or material that may have traversed those systems.
1814And then, of course, analyzing that material for classified content.
1815And so that was enormously challenging.
1816
1817We're talking
1818
1819about -- I'm not -- I can't give you numbers -- accurate numbers here
1820as I sit before today.
1821
1822We, of course, have these numbers, and I'm happy
1823
1824to provide them to you.
1825
1826But you're talking about an enormous volume
1827
1828of email material that had to be reviewed for classified content, much
1829of which was not FBI content.
1830So then we involved -- we constructed and executed an intricate
1831and demanding coordination process to try to identify that material
1832that we thought was classified, to try to get that material to the entity
1833that we thought owned it and could make the final determination as to
1834its classified status, and to give them the time and the space to do
1835those reviews, and, of course, receive the returns from those reviews.
1836So challenging to find the emails, to go through the emails, to
1837COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
1838
183929
1840
1841COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
1842
1843run the process necessary to have the owners of that material
1844appropriately weigh in on it.
1845
1846So that was uniquely challenging as
1847
1848well.
1849Identifying all those individuals who may have played a role in
1850the construction, the maintenance, the use of those systems, all of
1851which took place years before we were aware of and involved in the
1852investigation.
1853
1854Obviously went through that process as well.
1855
1856We
1857
1858interviewed many people.
1859Simply gaining access to people and the material we needed to take
1860a look at was also uniquely challenging in this case in the way that
1861our access was negotiated.
1862So there were many aspects of this case that made it challenging.
1863Chairman Gowdy.
1864
1865Had either you or, to your knowledge, the Bureau
1866
1867been involved in similar investigations given the complexities that
1868you just outlined?
1869Mr. McCabe.
1870
1871Similar in what way?
1872
1873Chairman Gowdy.
1874
1875Similar in the difficulties, the challenges.
1876
1877Similar in trying to identify whether or not classified material had
1878been handled in a grossly negligent way.
1879Mr. McCabe.
1880with that.
1881
1882We do many mishandling cases, so we have experience
1883
1884We do a lot of hard cases.
1885
1886Most of the work we do is
1887
1888challenging.
1889So, sure.
1890
1891I mean, we have certainly had cases that may have been
1892
1893similar in some ways.
1894Chairman Gowdy.
1895
1896I guess what I'm getting at, so I won't beat
1897COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
1898
189930
1900
1901COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
1902
1903around the bush, had her last name not been Clinton, would you have
1904handled the investigation the same way?
1905Mr. McCabe.
1906
1907Yes, sir.
1908
1909Chairman Gowdy.
1910
1911You went through your -- the lawyers or the
1912
1913legal, general counsel members that may have been part of the team,
1914Mr. Baker, Ms. Page.
1915Mr. McCabe.
1916
1917Anyone else?
1918
1919Ms. Anderson.
1920
1921Chairman Gowdy.
1922Mr. McCabe.
1923
1924And I think I indicated
1925
1926Chairman Gowdy.
1927Mr. McCabe.
1928
1929Ms. Anderson.
1930--
1931
1932Yes, sir.
1933
1934-- is also part of that office.
1935
1936Chairman Gowdy.
1937
1938All right.
1939
1940Before I digress, I think we were
1941
1942talking about the interaction between the Department of Justice and
1943how it was structured.
1944
1945And AG Lynch and DAG Yates did not have
1946
1947day-to-day involvement.
1948Mr. McCabe.
1949
1950Not to my knowledge, sir.
1951
1952Chairman Gowdy.
1953Mr. McCabe.
1954
1955Okay.
1956
1957I can't speak for any briefings or contact they may
1958
1959have had, you know, within their own building.
1960
1961But in the normal way
1962
1963that we interact with the Attorney General and the deputy attorney
1964general, primarily through the morning briefings that we do with them
19653 days a week, no, from my perspective, they were not involved.
1966Chairman Gowdy.
1967
1968What investigative steps require main Justice
1969
1970input or approval and which ones do not?
1971Mr. McCabe.
1972
1973Generally or in this case?
1974COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
1975
197631
1977
1978COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
1979
1980Chairman Gowdy.
1981Mr. McCabe.
1982
1983Generally.
1984
1985I mean, there's many investigative steps that
1986
1987require -Chairman Gowdy.
1988Ms. Anderson.
1989
1990Which ones require DOJ engagement?
1991
1992This calls a little bit for a legal conclusion.
1993
1994You're asking for some legal conclusions from the witness.
1995
1996So I'm not
1997
1998sure he's here authoritatively to speak to those issues.
1999Chairman Gowdy.
2000
2001Well, if he doesn't know the answer, he can say
2002
2003he doesn't know the answer.
2004Ms. Anderson.
2005
2006Sorry.
2007
2008with respect to our DIOG.
2009
2010He is a lawyer.
2011The question calls for legal conclusions
2012The witness is not here to testify as a
2013
2014lawyer.
2015Chairman Gowdy.
2016
2017Well, if you don't know the answer, you can say
2018
2019you don't know the answer.
2020Search warrant.
2021
2022Do you do that on your own or do you go to an
2023
2024attorney to -Mr. McCabe.
2025
2026No, sir.
2027
2028We use the U.S. attorneys predominately
2029
2030for search warrants.
2031Chairman Gowdy.
2032Mr. McCabe.
2033
2034Same.
2035
2036Chairman Gowdy.
2037Mr. McCabe.
2038
2039Grand jury subpoena?
2040
2041Administrative subpoena.
2042
2043It's been much years since I did an administrative
2044
2045subpoena, but when I did, we were able to do those from within our
2046building.
2047Chairman Gowdy.
2048
2049Decision to interview a witness?
2050COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
2051
205232
2053
2054COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
2055
2056Mr. McCabe.
2057
2058That is -- it could go either way.
2059
2060It depends on
2061
2062the case.
2063Chairman Gowdy.
2064Mr. McCabe.
2065
2066Decision to offer immunity to a witness?
2067
2068That is a Department of Justice decision.
2069
2070Chairman Gowdy.
2071
2072Were there conversations that you were part of
2073
2074centering around whether and to what extent to offer immunity to
2075witnesses?
2076Mr. McCabe.
2077
2078I can't remember a specific conversation in which
2079
2080we discussed immunity.
2081
2082I know that the -- immunity was one of those
2083
2084elements that I referred to earlier in terms of our access to witnesses.
2085That was negotiated by the Department of Justice.
2086Chairman Gowdy.
2087
2088Can you elaborate on that?
2089
2090Mr. Nadler.
2091
2092Negotiated with the Department of Justice with whom?
2093
2094Mr. McCabe.
2095
2096With witnesses' attorneys or sometimes with the
2097
2098witnesses themselves.
2099Chairman Gowdy.
2100
2101Can you go into more detail on that?
2102
2103think of anyone that immunity was offered to?
2104
2105Can you
2106
2107And walk us through the
2108
2109thought process of why that was warranted or why that decision was made.
2110Mr. McCabe.
2111
2112I'm sorry.
2113
2114I'm happy to address -- if you tell me
2115
2116who you're referring to, I'm happy to address it.
2117Chairman Gowdy.
2118Mr. McCabe.
2119
2120But --
2121
2122Well, you might --
2123
2124I can't remember a --
2125
2126Chairman Gowdy.
2127
2128You might be better positioned than I am to know
2129
2130who immunity was offered to.
2131Mr. McCabe.
2132
2133I don't know, sir, off the top of my head, who was
2134COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
2135
213633
2137
2138COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
2139
2140granted immunity and who was not.
2141Chairman Gowdy.
2142
2143Would the Bureau have been part of the decision
2144
2145to offer immunity?
2146Mr. McCabe.
2147
2148No, not typically?
2149
2150Chairman Gowdy.
2151
2152Are there any instances that you can recall
2153
2154where the Bureau did not agree with the decision to offer immunity?
2155Mr. McCabe.
2156
2157I can recall many points of disagreement between the
2158
2159FBI and the Department during the investigation.
2160
2161There was
2162
2163considerable frustration at different points over the strategy that
2164we were using to get to where we needed to go.
2165
2166And by that I mean by
2167
2168access to witnesses and access to material.
2169There were differences of opinion as to the best way to pursue
2170that course, as there frequently are in big and small investigations.
2171But that was definitely present in this one.
2172Chairman Gowdy.
2173
2174I wrote down the word "disagreement" and wrote
2175
2176down the word "frustrations."
2177Can you give the committee a sense of what disagreements may have
2178existed between -- accepting that that happens in lots and lots of
2179cases.
2180Mr. McCabe.
2181
2182Yes, sir.
2183
2184Chairman Gowdy.
2185Mr. McCabe.
2186
2187There's nothing unusual about that.
2188
2189Right.
2190
2191Chairman Gowdy.
2192
2193But we are right now focused on one.
2194
2195What disagreements may have existed in this particular case?
2196Mr. McCabe.
2197
2198So there were times that we -- I shouldn't say we.
2199COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
2200
220134
2202
2203COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
2204
2205There were times that people in the FBI suggested and wanted to pursue,
2206let's say, acquiring of evidence through legal process, rather than
2207the Department's preferred route, which was negotiating consent to
2208access different pieces of evidence.
2209Mr. Meadows.
2210
2211Mr. Chairman?
2212
2213Chairman Gowdy.
2214Mr. Meadows.
2215
2216Yes?
2217
2218So you started to say "we."
2219
2220And obviously you
2221
2222recalled a particular instance, because you changed it from "we," which
2223would mean that you were not included.
2224Who are you referring to in terms of that unique case?
2225Mr. McCabe.
2226
2227I'm actually not thinking of a specific case.
2228
2229This
2230
2231is a general frustration.
2232Mr. Meadows.
2233
2234You can think of no particular case, what you just
2235
2236answered, in terms of where that process was used.
2237Mr. McCabe.
2238
2239Okay.
2240
2241So I'm thinking now of our acquisition of
2242
2243laptops towards the end of our investigation, which was a point that
2244we were insistent on conducting whatever exploitation we could on the
2245laptops that were used to conduct the sort of the emails, which I can
2246explain later if you want me to go into that.
2247Mr. Nadler.
2248
2249We can't hear you.
2250
2251Mr. McCabe.
2252
2253I'm sorry.
2254
2255Mr. Nadler.
2256
2257The sort of emails.
2258
2259Chairman Gowdy.
2260
2261You said something else.
2262
2263He said which he was happy to explain to me
2264
2265later.
2266Mr. McCabe.
2267
2268Okay.
2269
2270So towards the end of the investigation, we
2271COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
2272
227335
2274
2275COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
2276
2277became -- we were absolutely insistent on the fact that we would not
2278end the investigation until we acquired, or made every effort to
2279acquire, I believe it was two laptops that were used initially by people
2280associated with the Secretary to conduct what we referred to as the
2281sort, which was the original separation of work emails and personal
2282emails.
2283
2284We wanted to see the machines upon which that sort was
2285
2286conducted.
2287We had a hard time getting to them because there were a lot of
2288complicated attorney-client privileges associated with it because
2289those laptops had been used by attorneys for work they had done for
2290different, unrelated clients.
2291
2292So understood that it was complicated.
2293
2294And so we were constantly balancing whether we would pursue those
2295laptops with the use of subpoenas and search warrants, or would we
2296continue to negotiate with attorneys to try to produce those
2297voluntarily.
2298Ultimately, we were able to get the laptops through a consent
2299agreement, and we did not have to pursue a search warrant.
2300But at different times during the pendency of that issue, we were
2301frustrated and wanted to pursue subpoenas and search warrants rather
2302than continuing to negotiate with the attorneys.
2303Chairman Goodlatte.
2304Mr. Nadler.
2305
2306That's 30 minutes.
2307
2308If I could just ask one thing.
2309
2310So the question of
2311
2312the method -- the question of the methods aside on which there was a
2313disagreement, you did, in fact, get the laptops?
2314Mr. McCabe.
2315
2316Yes, we did.
2317COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
2318
2319COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
2320
2321Mr. Meadows.
2322our time is out.
2323per side.
2324
2325Mr. Chairman, may I make a point of order, since
2326It is incredibly important that we have 30 minutes
2327
2328And I think all the committee members from Oversight will
2329
2330know that I am a very fair individual.
2331that.
2332
233336
2334
2335Mr. Nadler perhaps doesn't know
2336
2337But for him to come in and ask questions as followups during
2338
2339our 30 minutes, I think you need to make sure we have a silo as a point
2340of order.
2341Chairman Gowdy.
2342
2343I think what Mr. Nadler is going to allow is for
2344
2345you to ask two followups on any question he asked, and then we're going
2346to be even, and then we won't do it anymore.
2347Mr. Nadler.
2348
2349And those were just clarifying questions.
2350
2351Chairman Gowdy.
2352
2353My 30 minutes is.
2354
2355Carolina's point is well taken.
2356
2357The gentleman from North
2358
2359My 30 minutes is up.
2360
2361Do you need to break, Deputy Director?
2362Mr. McCabe.
2363
2364No, sir.
2365
2366Mr. Connolly.
2367
2368I'm good.
2369
2370Mr. Chairman, just -- I don't disagree with
2371
2372Mr. Meadow's point.
2373
2374However, it is sometimes very hard to hear.
2375
2376And
2377
2378permit us once in a while to ask for something to be repeated, because
2379it's very hard to hear.
2380Chairman Gowdy.
2381
2382I hadn't shut you down yet.
2383
2384Chairman Goodlatte.
2385
2386We're going to try to turn the volume up.
2387
2388We're also going to remind everybody to speak into the microphones.
2389Mr. Cummings.
2390
2391Deputy Director McCabe, I want to thank you for
2392
2393more than two decades of service to our country and for appearing before
2394us today at such short notice.
2395
2396I note that Chairman Gowdy mentioned
2397
2398COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
2399
2400COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
2401
240237
2403
2404that you spent quite a bit of time with the Intelligence Committee,
2405and we thank you.
2406Mr. McCabe.
2407
2408Thank you, sir.
2409
2410Mr. Cummings.
2411Mr. McCabe.
2412
2413You are a career public servant.
2414That's correct.
2415
2416Mr. Cummings.
2417enforcement.
2418
2419You have had a highly distinguished career in law
2420
2421And you have occupied some of the most important roles
2422
2423at the Bureau, fighting terrorism and ensuring that those who commit
2424heinous crimes are held accountable.
2425Mr. McCabe.
2426
2427Is that right?
2428
2429That's correct, sir.
2430
2431Mr. Cummings.
2432
2433I think it's important that our Members understand
2434
2435what you have done during your career and what you do now to protect
2436our country and every single person sitting at this table and the more
2437than 300 million Americans that we represent.
2438When did you first join the Bureau?
2439Mr. McCabe.
2440
2441I joined the FBI on July 7th, 1996.
2442
2443Mr. Cummings.
2444Mr. McCabe.
2445school.
2446
2447And why did you decide to join the FBI?
2448
2449I became fascinated with the FBI when I was in law
2450
2451I spent the summer between my second and third year in law
2452
2453school working for free at the Department of Justice.
2454Mr. Cummings.
2455Mr. McCabe.
2456
2457Free?
2458I was a volunteer intern in the criminal fraud
2459
2460section, and I spent a lot of time poring over the work of FBI agents,
2461reading 302s, that sort of thing.
2462
2463And I became just hooked on the idea
2464
2465of joining this organization.
2466COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
2467
246838
2469
2470COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
2471
2472Mr. Cummings.
2473
2474I understand that you started your career as a
2475
2476special agent in New York investigating organized crime.
2477What were you doing on September 11th, 2001?
2478Mr. McCabe.
2479
2480So I was doing that.
2481
2482I was still an agent on
2483
2484Eurasian organized crime squad in New York.
2485
2486I was also an operator
2487
2488on the New York field office's SWAT team.
2489And so when the attack took place, we assumed, as members of the
2490team, that we would be dispatched to go out and conduct arrests and
2491search warrants and the sort of work that we do.
2492
2493Unfortunately, that
2494
2495call never came.
2496So we spent the next month reestablishing and protecting our
2497command post in a garage on the corner of 26th Street and the West Side
2498Highway, because, of course, our building was off limits.
2499
2500It had been
2501
2502contaminated by the fallout from the towers.
2503Mr. Cummings.
2504
2505You were promoted to the FBI's national
2506
2507headquarters in 2006, and in 2008 became the special agent in charge
2508of the Washington field office's counterterrorism division.
2509
2510Is that
2511
2512right?
2513Mr. McCabe.
2514
2515I was actually the assistant special agent in charge
2516
2517of the CT division, the counterterrorism division in the Washington
2518field office.
2519
2520But, yes, sir.
2521
2522Mr. Cummings.
2523
2524Why did you shift your focus from organized crime
2525
2526to counterterrorism?
2527Mr. McCabe.
2528
2529I was ready for a new challenge.
2530
2531I had had a great
2532
2533experience doing nothing but criminal work in the New York field office
2534COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
2535
2536COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
2537
253839
2539
2540other than, of course, my involvement in the investigation of the
2541attacks on 9/11.
2542I think, like many people, I was drawn to the counterterrorist
2543fight as having gone through that experience of the 9/11 attacks in
2544New York City.
2545
2546I knew it was time for me and my career to come to do
2547
2548my tour at headquarters, and I thought no better place to do that than,
2549really, on the terrorism, as we called it at the time, the front lines
2550in the International Terrorism Operation Section 1, or ITOS 1, as it's
2551referred to within the Bureau.
2552Mr. Cummings.
2553
2554In 2010, you were tapped to become the first
2555
2556director of the FBI's High-Value Interrogation Group.
2557What does that group do?
2558Mr. McCabe.
2559
2560So that group was called for in a Presidential order
2561
2562signed by President Obama, and it was essentially in response to the
2563many challenges and problems that we had had -- I say "we," I mean the
2564entire government and intelligence community -- in conducting the
2565interrogations of high-value terrorist subjects.
2566And so the intent behind High-Value Interrogation Group, or the
2567HIG, as we referred to it, was to build an interagency capability,
2568combined of FBI and two intelligence community partners primarily, to
2569conduct interrogations of high-value subjects wherever they were
2570detained around the world in a lawful and effective manner.
2571Mr. Cummings.
2572
2573And who were some of the detainees questioned by
2574
2575the group under your leadership?
2576Mr. McCabe.
2577
2578The first appointment of the HIG team was to
2579COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
2580
258140
2582
2583COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
2584
2585interrogate Mutallab, the Christmas Day bomber, of course tried to take
2586down a Northwest Airlines flight on Christmas Day in 2009, if I have
2587my years correct.
2588
2589And then we conducted probably about two dozen
2590
2591additional deployments in my term as director of the HIG.
2592Mr. Cummings.
2593
2594So I've been told that you then held two of the
2595
2596most important jobs in the FBI, Assistant Director of the
2597Counterterrorism Division, and Executive Assistant Director of the
2598National Security Branch.
2599Mr. McCabe.
2600
2601That is correct.
2602
2603Mr. Cummings.
2604
2605What were your responsibilities in those roles?
2606
2607Mr. McCabe.
2608
2609So as assistant director of the counterterrorism
2610
2611division, I was responsible for all of our CT efforts.
2612of about $120 million a year, about
2613
2614So a budget
2615
2616agents around the country,
2617
2618and, of course, around the globe and our legat offices, and a
2619considerable force here at headquarters.
2620
2621We have primary, as you know,
2622
2623investigative responsibility for international and domestic
2624terrorism.
2625
2626And we spend a lot of time focused on that work, trying
2627
2628to keep America safe.
2629Mr. Cummings.
2630
2631What was your involvement in the investigation of
2632
2633the 2013 Boston Marathon bombing?
2634Mr. McCabe.
2635
2636So I oversaw that investigation from headquarters
2637
2638as the Assistant Director of the Counterterrorism Division.
2639Mr. Cummings.
2640Mr. McCabe.
2641Mr. Cummings.
2642
2643Does that mean you were in charge of it?
2644Yes, sir.
2645And what was your involvement in the arrest and
2646COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
2647
264841
2649
2650COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
2651
2652interrogation of Khatallah?
2653Mr. McCabe.
2654
2655So Mr. Khatallah was one of the few people that we
2656
2657have been able to hold responsible for the attack on our special mission
2658facility in Benghazi, Libya.
2659
2660I oversaw the development of that
2661
2662operation and the very significant and complicated partnership
2663relationships that enabled us to bring Mr. Khatallah to Justice.
2664Mr. Cummings.
2665Mr. McCabe.
2666Mr. Cummings.
2667
2668Was that a difficult case?
2669Yes, sir, it was.
2670In 2014, you then served as the Assistant Director
2671
2672in Charge of the FBI's Washington field office, the Bureau's
2673second-largest field office.
2674
2675Can you tell us about what your role was
2676
2677at the helm of the D.C. office, and what your proudest accomplishments
2678were there?
2679Mr. McCabe.
2680
2681One of the best jobs I've ever had.
2682
2683It's an
2684
2685outstanding opportunity to represent and oversee the efforts of
2686employees assigned to the Washington field office.
2687
2688The Washington
2689
2690field office is responsible for all FBI matters in the District of
2691Columbia and in northern Virginia.
2692
2693And as the ADIC, you -- the
2694
2695assistant director in charge -- you oversee all of those programs.
2696
2697So,
2698
2699once again, kind of took me back a little bit to my criminal roots,
2700but still had a lot of involvement in our national security work.
2701The Washington field office has -- although it is the second
2702largest field office, it has an incredibly diverse and important
2703national security mission, particularly on the counterintelligence
2704side, as a result of the large and diverse population of diplomats and
2705COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
2706
270742
2708
2709COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
2710
2711intelligence officers here in the Nation's capital.
2712Mr. Cummings.
2713
2714You've dedicated your life to law enforcement.
2715
2716Is that right?
2717Mr. McCabe.
2718
2719I've been happy to do so, sir.
2720
2721Mr. Cummings.
2722
2723And why is that?
2724
2725Mr. McCabe.
2726
2727What's the driving force there?
2728
2729There is no greater mission than the one that has
2730
2731been given to the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
2732
2733I explained this
2734
2735to my folks many, many times last summer as I served as the Acting
2736Director for a short period of time.
2737
2738We have a workforce of 36,500
2739
2740people around the globe, 12,000 of whom carry guns every day to defend
2741themselves and the people of this Nation.
2742
2743We do some incredibly
2744
2745important work, and we do it professionally, competently, and
2746independently, every day around the globe.
2747
2748It has been -- it has been
2749
2750the honor and privilege of my life to do that work.
2751Mr. Cummings.
2752
2753You became the Deputy Director of the FBI in 2016,
2754
2755a position that you continue to serve in.
2756
2757I guess that's an important
2758
2759job, too.
2760Mr. McCabe.
2761
2762It is, sir.
2763
2764Mr. Cummings.
2765
2766Can you explain what your role and
2767
2768responsibilities are in your current position -Mr. McCabe.
2769
2770Yes, sir.
2771
2772Mr. Cummings.
2773
2774And give us a sense of how you serve our country
2775
2776on a day-to-day basis in that position?
2777Mr. McCabe.
2778
2779I am responsible for all of the FBI's investigative
2780
2781operations and intelligence collection operations worldwide.
2782COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
2783
278443
2785
2786COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
2787
2788I am the highest ranking agent in the FBI, and, ultimately, I am
2789responsible for the welfare, the safety, and the work product of all
279036,500 people I just mentioned.
2791Mr. Cummings.
2792
2793So can you explain what it means to you on a
2794
2795personal level to serve as the number two guy?
2796Mr. McCabe.
2797
2798It is a -- it has been a privilege and an opportunity
2799
2800that I never, ever imagined I would have.
2801over 21 years ago.
2802
2803I came into this organization
2804
2805I didn't know a single FBI employee.
2806
2807attracted to the mission.
2808
2809I was just
2810
2811I had incredible respect for this place and
2812
2813the men and women that do this work.
2814
2815And I have spent every one of
2816
2817those days trying to do it as well and as intensely as I possibly can.
2818And to have concluded my experience in this organization to serve as
2819Deputy Director has just been beyond my wildest dreams and hopes for
2820what I would do at the FBI.
2821Mr. Cummings.
2822
2823On that note, I understand that you have been
2824
2825personally under attack by some who have questioned your integrity.
2826Mr. McCabe.
2827Mr. Cummings.
2828
2829Yes, sir.
2830And whether you let your personal political views,
2831
2832or the personal political views of your wife, cloud your judgment in
2833your role at the FBI.
2834Mr. McCabe.
2835
2836Yes, sir.
2837
2838Mr. Cummings.
2839
2840I want to ask you about that, because I'm very
2841
2842concerned about it.
2843
2844You know, I'm sitting here, I'm listening to you,
2845
2846and I'm so glad that you are where you are.
2847Mr. McCabe.
2848
2849Thank you, sir.
2850COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
2851
285244
2853
2854COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
2855
2856Mr. Cummings.
2857
2858In your long and distinguished career at the FBI,
2859
2860have you ever let your personal political views, whatever they might
2861be, influence you in any way with regard to your actions as an FBI agent?
2862Mr. McCabe.
2863
2864No, sir.
2865
2866Mr. Cummings.
2867
2868Did you ever let the fact that your wife ran for
2869
2870State Senate, or anything that occurred related to her campaign,
2871influence or impact, in any way, your official actions as an FBI agent?
2872Mr. McCabe.
2873
2874No, sir.
2875
2876Mr. Cummings.
2877
2878What is your reaction to those personal attacks
2879
2880against you, and, more broadly, against the FBI as an institution?
2881Mr. McCabe.
2882
2883Well, you have given me a lot to unpack there.
2884
2885Mr. Cummings.
2886
2887Let me tell you something.
2888
2889I'm concerned about
2890
2891the tearing down of the reputation of the FBI, and it is painful.
2892Mr. McCabe.
2893
2894Yep.
2895
2896Mr. Cummings.
2897democracy.
2898
2899Because I think it's an attack on our very
2900
2901That's my feeling.
2902
2903But I'm just wondering what -- I mean,
2904
2905how the men and women, these men and women who go out every day and
2906give their blood, their sweat, their tears, wondering if they're going
2907to come home, I mean, I'm just wondering how you and how they are
2908affected.
2909Mr. McCabe.
2910
2911Yeah.
2912
2913So if I could speak just for a minute about
2914
2915my personal experience over the last year.
2916been enormously challenging.
2917
2918And I'll tell you it has
2919
2920My wife is a wonderful, brilliant,
2921
2922caring physician who was drawn to take a run at public life because
2923she was committed to trying to expand health insurance coverage for
2924COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
2925
292645
2927
2928COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
2929
2930the people of the State of Virginia.
2931
2932That was the one and only thing
2933
2934that raised her interest in running for office when she was approached
2935with the possibility of doing so.
2936And having started with that noble intention, to have gone through
2937what she and my children have experienced over the last year has
2938been -- it has been devastating.
2939Mr. Cummings.
2940
2941What have they gone through?
2942
2943Because I want
2944
2945to -- I really want to know.
2946Mr. McCabe.
2947
2948Well, I'm sure you're familiar with --
2949
2950Mr. Cummings.
2951Mr. McCabe.
2952
2953Just give me a general idea.
2954Yeah, the constant reiteration of the lies and
2955
2956accusations about things that she allegedly did, or I allegedly did,
2957in support of her campaign, despite the fact that we've consistently
2958tried to tell folks the truth about what happened, has been very, very
2959frustrating.
2960Mr. Cummings.
2961Mr. McCabe.
2962
2963How old are your children?
2964
2965I have a 15-year-old and a 13-year-old.
2966
2967They're old
2968
2969enough to know.
2970Mr. Cummings.
2971
2972All right.
2973
2974I'm going to turn it over to
2975
2976Mr. Nadler, but let me say this before he says what he has to say.
2977
2978I
2979
2980genuinely thank you, from the depths of my heart, for your service.
2981We need more people like you in government.
2982
2983We really do.
2984
2985And I just
2986
2987wanted to thank you.
2988Did you want to say something?
2989Mr. McCabe.
2990
2991Sir, I just want to say, despite everything, I have
2992COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
2993
2994COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
2995
2996absolutely no regrets.
2997
299846
2999
3000This is the greatest institution on Earth.
3001
3002The men and women of the FBI do great work every single day in ways
3003that many people will never know.
3004
3005It is an honor to continuously be
3006
3007associated with this organization and those people, and I wouldn't do
3008anything differently in any way.
3009Mr. Cummings.
3010
3011Thank you very much.
3012
3013Mr. Connolly.
3014
3015Mr. Chairman, just briefly.
3016
3017I just want to respond to what your last observation -Mr. Krishnamoorthi.
3018Mr. Connolly.
3019said.
3020
3021You got to speak into the mic.
3022
3023I'm sorry.
3024
3025I wanted to respond to what you just
3026
3027First of all, I represent Virginia at this table and I still
3028
3029believe public service is an honorable calling, not something to be
3030condemned.
3031
3032And it is terrible that we've arrived at this point in our
3033
3034polity that in order to win an argument, or try to win an argument,
3035we engage in personal destruction of somebody's good name.
3036It couldn't be clearer you're an honorable human being, and you've
3037served your country and the FBI honorably.
3038
3039And I just want to assure
3040
3041you there are many of us who will fight for your honor, and will resist
3042any attempt to try to besmirch your good name.
3043Mr. McCabe.
3044
3045Thank you, sir.
3046
3047Mr. Nadler.
3048
3049Thank you.
3050
3051Let me just second that and say one of
3052
3053the problems of our politics today is the casting of unwarranted
3054aspersions on the good name and reputation of people, especially
3055government employees, doing a well-motivated and fair job.
3056Mr. McCabe.
3057
3058Thank you, sir.
3059COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
3060
306147
3062
3063COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
3064
3065Mr. Nadler.
3066
3067Now, Mr. McCabe, earlier, Mr. Gowdy indicated that
3068
3069he hoped that some of his Democratic colleagues would ask questions
3070about the disparate treatment of Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump by
3071the FBI.
3072
3073I am happy to oblige.
3074
3075In September of last year, at an
3076
3077oversight hearing in this room, I asked Director Comey directly, quote:
3078"The FBI acknowledged in public statements and testimony that it was
3079investigating Secretary Clinton's use of a private email server while
3080the investigation was still ongoing.
3081
3082Is there a different standard
3083
3084for Secretary Clinton and Donald Trump?
3085
3086He responded:
3087
3088No.
3089
3090Our
3091
3092standard is we do not confirm or deny the existence of investigations.
3093There is an exception for that when there is a need for the public to
3094be reassured when it is obvious, given our activities, public
3095activities, that the investigation is ongoing," unquote.
3096
3097Mr. McCabe,
3098
3099were you involved in the decision to make public the fact that the FBI
3100was investigating Secretary Clinton.
3101Mr. McCabe.
3102
3103No, sir.
3104
3105Mr. Nadler.
3106
3107And do you agree that the public actions of the FBI
3108
3109regarding Secretary Clinton as she was campaigning for President had
3110a potential impact on her ability to get elected?
3111Mr. McCabe.
3112
3113It's not really my place, sir, to speculate on
3114
3115anyone's prospects for election.
3116Mr. Nadler.
3117
3118No, not her prospects for election, but that the
3119
3120FBI's actions might have affected it.
3121Ms. Anderson.
3122
3123The question -- I'm sorry, the question calls for
3124
3125him to speculate about something that's outside the scope of -COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
3126
312748
3128
3129COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
3130
3131Mr. Nadler.
3132
3133Okay.
3134
3135When Director Comey made public statements
3136
3137regarding the investigation of Secretary Clinton, was the purpose ever
3138to impact the outcome of the election?
3139Mr. McCabe.
3140
3141No, sir.
3142
3143Mr. Nadler.
3144
3145Did Director Comey try to avoid having an impact on
3146
3147the election?
3148
3149And what steps, if any, did he take for that purpose?
3150
3151Mr. McCabe.
3152
3153We -- I've got to stop using the word "we."
3154
3155I was
3156
3157aware, and the people that I worked with were aware, of the Justice
3158Department guidelines that specify that we don't take overt
3159investigative activity in the period near to an election.
3160about things like that frequently.
3161
3162So we talked
3163
3164I think Director Comey was very
3165
3166interested in us completing our work in a period of time that would
3167be far enough before the election took place so that we could take
3168whatever steps we needed to take, and do it in a way that would not
3169impact the election.
3170Mr. Nadler.
3171
3172So the announcement by the FBI, I think by Director
3173
3174Comey, of the investigation, and of the reopening of the investigation,
31759 days, or 11 days, before the election, were violations of those
3176guidelines?
3177Mr. McCabe.
3178
3179So to be clear, sir, I was not involved in the
3180
3181decision to reopen or -Mr. Nadler.
3182
3183I didn't ask you that.
3184
3185I said, was Director Comey's
3186
3187announcing publicly 11 days before the election a violation of those
3188guidelines.
3189Mr. McCabe.
3190
3191I was not a participant in any discussions around
3192COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
3193
3194COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
3195
319649
3197
3198that decision.
3199Mr. Nadler.
3200
3201So you can't answer that?
3202
3203Mr. McCabe.
3204
3205I can't answer it.
3206
3207Mr. Nadler.
3208
3209Okay.
3210
3211After the election in March of this year,
3212
3213Director Comey disclosed in public testimony that the FBI had begun
3214an investigation into, quote, "possible coordination between Russians
3215and the Trump campaign," close quote.
3216
3217We understand that that
3218
3219investigation actually began before the election, in July of last year.
3220Is that accurate?
3221Mr. McCabe.
3222
3223I'm not sure if I can answer that question in this
3224
3225setting because it may call for a classified response.
3226Mr. Nadler.
3227
3228As to when the investigation began?
3229
3230Mr. McCabe.
3231
3232That's correct.
3233
3234Mr. Nadler.
3235
3236Okay.
3237
3238Were you aware of the investigation before
3239
3240the election?
3241Mr. McCabe.
3242
3243Yes.
3244
3245Mr. Nadler.
3246
3247Was Peter Strzok aware of the investigation before
3248
3249the election?
3250Mr. McCabe.
3251
3252And by investigation you're referring to the one
3253
3254that Director Comey described in his testimony?
3255Mr. Nadler.
3256
3257Yes.
3258
3259Mr. McCabe.
3260
3261Yes.
3262
3263Mr. Nadler.
3264
3265Was Lisa Page aware of it?
3266
3267Mr. McCabe.
3268
3269Yes.
3270
3271Mr. Nadler.
3272
3273Was the chief of staff, Rybicki -- if that's how you
3274COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
3275
327650
3277
3278COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
3279
3280pronounce it -- aware of it?
3281Mr. McCabe.
3282
3283Yes.
3284
3285Mr. Nadler.
3286
3287But no news of that investigation regarding
3288
3289President Trump's campaign leaked out to the press.
3290
3291Are you aware of
3292
3293any leaks before the election?
3294Mr. McCabe.
3295
3296Of that investigation?
3297
3298Mr. Nadler.
3299
3300Yes.
3301
3302Mr. McCabe.
3303
3304I am not.
3305
3306Mr. Nadler.
3307
3308Okay.
3309
3310Why did the FBI decide not to disclose that
3311
3312the FBI was investigating this issue related to the Trump campaign
3313before the election?
3314Mr. McCabe.
3315
3316Why did we -- why did we decide not to?
3317
3318Mr. Nadler.
3319
3320Yes.
3321
3322Mr. McCabe.
3323
3324I'm not sure that it was a matter that came up for
3325
3326decision.
3327
3328I think it was consistent with our existing policy, which
3329
3330is to never confirm or deny the existence of an investigation with the
3331exception of those special circumstances that Director Comey testified
3332to.
3333Mr. Nadler.
3334
3335With the exception of the Clinton investigation.
3336
3337If the FBI had disclosed before the election that it was
3338investigating possible coordination between the Russians and the Trump
3339campaign, would that have potentially had a negative impact on the
3340President's ability -- on the candidate Trump's ability to get elected?
3341Mr. McCabe.
3342
3343I don't want to speculate on that, sir.
3344
3345Mr. Nadler.
3346
3347Can't speculate.
3348COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
3349
335051
3351
3352COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
3353
3354Did FBI officials discuss whether to make this investigation
3355publicly known?
3356Mr. McCabe.
3357publicly known.
3358Mr. Nadler.
3359
3360I don't believe we ever considered making it
3361Not in my presence.
3362Okay.
3363
3364Why did the FBI decide not to make the fact
3365
3366of this investigation public?
3367Mr. McCabe.
3368
3369Because it was --
3370
3371Well, as I've said, we never decided not to.
3372
3373the default, right?
3374
3375That's
3376
3377We don't make investigations public unless one
3378
3379of the exceptions apply, which clearly they -- Director Comey decided
3380that they did in the Clinton case.
3381Mr. Nadler.
3382
3383Which may answer my next question.
3384
3385But I may ask
3386
3387you to be more specific then.
3388Mr. McCabe.
3389
3390Okay.
3391
3392Mr. Nadler.
3393
3394Why would DOJ policy on elections counsel against
3395
3396investigative steps letting the public know that the Russian interests
3397were attempting to infiltrate the Trump campaign, yet not block a highly
3398public press conference about an investigation into Hillary Clinton?
3399Mr. McCabe.
3400
3401I'm sorry.
3402
3403Can you give me the front end of that
3404
3405again?
3406Mr. Nadler.
3407
3408Why would DOJ policy --
3409
3410Mr. McCabe.
3411
3412Yes.
3413
3414Mr. Nadler.
3415
3416-- counsel against investigative steps letting the
3417
3418public know that Russian interests were attempting to infiltrate the
3419Trump campaign, yet not block a highly public press conference about
3420an investigation into Hillary Clinton?
3421COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
3422
342352
3424
3425COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
3426
3427Mr. McCabe.
3428
3429Yeah.
3430
3431DOJ policy for you.
3432
3433I'm not sure I can -- I'm here to interpret
3434
3435My general understanding is that DOJ policy is
3436
3437intended to preclude any activity that can impact an election.
3438Mr. Nadler.
3439
3440Okay.
3441
3442Director Comey announced by press conference
3443
3444that the FBI would not recommend charges against Secretary Clinton.
3445Mr. McCabe.
3446
3447That's right.
3448
3449Mr. Nadler.
3450
3451Were you part of discussions about whether Director
3452
3453Comey should make that announcement publicly?
3454Mr. McCabe.
3455
3456Yes.
3457
3458Mr. Nadler.
3459
3460When was the decision made to do it as a press
3461
3462conference?
3463Mr. McCabe.
3464
3465Not too long before the press conference.
3466
3467Mr. Nadler.
3468
3469Okay.
3470
3471What were the reasons that Director Comey
3472
3473ultimately chose to make that announcement publicly?
3474Mr. McCabe.
3475
3476So, to the best of my knowledge, and also without
3477
3478going into classified matters, Director Comey was greatly concerned
3479about how we would make -- just exactly how that process would take
3480place.
3481
3482We discussed, over the course of many weeks, essentially, what
3483
3484does the end look like for this investigation.
3485
3486Not just what are we
3487
3488seeing in the evidence that we're collecting -- I mean, that was a
3489constant topic of conversation amongst the team.
3490
3491We'd meet at least
3492
3493once a week to get a status update in terms of, what had the email
3494exploitation told us, what had we heard back from our partners around
3495the USIC, what were we getting from our interviews.
3496
3497And, ultimately,
3498
3499we would query the investigators and the investigative leadership over
3500COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
3501
350253
3503
3504COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
3505
3506the team to say, where are we?
3507
3508What are you seeing in terms of what
3509
3510evidence do we have of intentional mishandling of documents?
3511
3512And week,
3513
3514after week, after week the answer was we don't have much.
3515So as that's progressing, we start thinking, okay, what does the
3516end of this investigation look like?
3517
3518It's either going to look like
3519
3520we recommend and the Department chooses to pursue a charge, in which
3521case, that's something we're very familiar with.
3522investigations look like at the end.
3523
3524That's what most
3525
3526Although, in this case there was
3527
3528the possibility that we wouldn't be in a position to recommend to the
3529Department that they pursue a charge.
3530communicated.
3531
3532And how would that best be
3533
3534And Director Comey felt that, for several reasons, that
3535
3536the Department was not in a good position to be able to communicate
3537that in a credible and effective way, in light of all of the intense
3538interest across the country in, where were we, and what was our result
3539going to be.
3540Mr. Nadler.
3541
3542And that's why he decided to make the announcement
3543
3544publicly?
3545Mr. McCabe.
3546
3547It is.
3548
3549He decided that, essentially, the
3550
3551Department was not in a position to be able to do that -Mr. Nadler.
3552
3553He had --
3554
3555Mr. McCabe.
3556
3557-- for a variety of reasons.
3558
3559And so he felt the best
3560
3561way to do it was the way he did.
3562Mr. Nadler.
3563
3564I got it.
3565
3566Thank you.
3567
3568The documents produced by the DOJ show that Director Comey began
3569drafting a public statement for a press conference on May 2nd.
3570COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
3571
3572The
3573
357454
3575
3576COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
3577
3578tarmac meeting between Attorney General Lynch and former President Bill
3579Clinton, which Director Comey says weighed significantly in his
3580decision to call a press conference, did not occur until June 30th,
3581nearly 60 days later.
3582
3583Why did Director Comey prepare a public
3584
3585statement so far in advance of any apparent reason to make a public
3586recommendation?
3587Mr. McCabe.
3588
3589I think Director Comey, as I just mentioned, was
3590
3591thinking about what does the end look like.
3592sort of a statement, what would he say.
3593
3594And if the end is some
3595
3596It is not uncommon to think
3597
3598through these things, to draft language, to go through a process to
3599understand collaboratively, with the team, if we had to draw a
3600conclusion, what would that look like, how would we say it, what sort
3601of things would we include in that statement.
3602
3603It was a very iterative
3604
3605process.
3606Mr. Nadler.
3607
3608Thank you.
3609
3610On July 19, 2016, senior FBI officials gave a high-level
3611counterintelligence briefing to the Trump campaign.
3612
3613Mr. McCabe.
3614
3615Not that I'm aware of.
3616
3617Mr. Nadler.
3618
3619During this meeting, did the Trump campaign disclose
3620
3621that in June, a month previously, senior campaign officials, including
3622COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
3623
362455
3625
3626COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
3627
3628Donald Trump Jr. and Jared Kushner, had met with a Russian lawyer at
3629Trump Tower in response to an email that the Russian Government hoped
3630to help the Trump campaign?
3631Mr. Schools.
3632
3633Congressman, those are investigative details
3634
3635related to an ongoing investigation that we understood was outside the
3636scope.
3637Mr. Nadler.
3638
3639No.
3640
3641It's with respect -- the Russian inquiry is
3642
3643outside the scope of this inquiry.
3644
3645But the contacts of the Department
3646
3647of Justice, among other things -- is not.
3648
3649Among other things, the
3650
3651committee is investigating the circumstances surrounding the FBI's
3652decision to publicly announce the investigation into former Secretary
3653Clinton's handling of classified information but not to publicly
3654announce the investigation into campaign associates of then-candidate
3655Donald Trump.
3656
3657This goes to that question, not to whether Russia
3658
3659colluded or whether the Trump people colluded.
3660scope.
3661
3662That is outside the
3663
3664We are not --
3665
3666Mr. Schools.
3667
3668Respectfully, Deputy Director McCabe has confirmed
3669
3670that the 0FBI had an investigation ongoing.
3671at that time.
3672
3673People were aware of it
3674
3675Having confirmed that, that seems to be the relevant
3676
3677data point.
3678Mr. Nadler.
3679
3680No.
3681.
3682
3683That question
3684
3685would be within the scope of this inquiry I would think.
3686Chairman Goodlatte.
3687York.
3688
3689I would agree with the gentleman from New
3690
3691It's an appropriate question.
3692COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
3693
369456
3695
3696COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
3697
3698Mr. McCabe.
3699
3700Can you repeat the question?
3701
3702Mr. Nadler.
3703
3704Yeah.
3705
3706During this meeting -- well, I asked you a
3707
3708question, and I think you answered.
3709
3710I think you said no.
3711
3712any.
3713
3714Mr. McCabe.
3715
3716I'm not aware of any.
3717
3718Mr. Nadler.
3719
3720Okay.
3721
3722During this meeting -- you're not aware of
3723
3724During this meeting, did the Trump campaign disclose that in June
3725
3726of 2016, senior campaign officials, including Donald Trump Jr. and
3727Jared Kushner, had met with a Russian lawyer at Trump Tower in response
3728to an email that the Russian Government hoped to help the Trump
3729campaign.
3730
3731Did they reveal it to you?
3732
3733Mr. McCabe.
3734
3735That would call for a response about a development
3736
3737in an ongoing counterintelligence investigation which would be
3738classified.
3739
3740So I cannot answer that question in this setting.
3741
3742Mr. Nadler.
3743will be the same.
3744
3745Okay.
3746
3747And that -- I assume that the next question
3748
3749Did the fact that the Trump campaign chose not to
3750
3751disclose this information -- assuming you had said no -- during the
3752meeting with FBI officials that concern you?
3753
3754You can't answer that,
3755
3756obviously.
3757Mr. McCabe.
3758
3759Again, for the same reason, I can't answer in this
3760
3761setting.
3762Mr. Nadler.
3763
3764When the did the FBI learn that the Trump campaign
3765
3766had failed -- well, okay.
3767
3768Let me ask you a different question.
3769
3770next two questions are subject to the same problem.
3771COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
3772
3773My
3774
3775COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
3776
377757
3778
3779My last question, really, is, allegations have been made that the
3780FBI investigation is tainted by the fact that Mr. Strzok was -- and
3781various other people, including yourself, are sympathetic to Democrats
3782or to one political faction.
3783
3784Is it proper for the FBI to vet FBI agents
3785
3786for hiring, or to vet FBI agents for inclusion in a specific
3787investigation, according to their private political persuasions?
3788Mr. McCabe.
3789
3790We do not do that, and I do not believe it would be
3791
3792proper for us to do that.
3793Mr. Nadler.
3794
3795So that if it turned out that in a given
3796
3797investigation, people were -- there were more Democrats than
3798Republicans, this would not be known to you, and if it were known to
3799you, you couldn't act on it?
3800Mr. McCabe.
3801
3802I have never known that in my 21 years of conducting
3803
3804and supervising investigations.
3805
3806That is not something that we
3807
3808discuss.
3809Chairman Goodlatte.
3810
3811The time is up.
3812
3813The 30 minutes are up.
3814
3815Let's take a 5-minute recess and we'll reconvene.
3816Mr. Nadler.
3817
3818Thank you.
3819
3820[Recess.]
3821Chairman Goodlatte.
3822
3823All right.
3824
3825It's now 12:29, and we'll go
3826
3827back on the record.
3828Mr. Jordan.
3829
3830Would you care if I --
3831
3832Chairman Goodlatte.
3833Chairman Gowdy.
3834Mr. Jordan.
3835
3836Yeah.
3837
3838Go ahead.
3839
3840Turn the microphone over in front of you, Jimmy.
3841
3842So, Mr. McCabe, you had said that you -- you viewed
3843COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
3844
384558
3846
3847COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
3848
3849this as a unique investigation.
3850
3851You gave us a list of folks at the
3852
3853FBI who were part of this unique team.
3854
3855I think the term you used, the
3856
3857jargon at the FBI, or the language at the FBI, is headquarters special.
3858Who made the determination that this would be a headquarter-special
3859type of investigation?
3860
3861Was that ultimately Mr. Comey's decision?
3862
3863Or
3864
3865how was that decision made?
3866Mr. McCabe.
3867
3868There is no such decision.
3869
3870an official designation.
3871term.
3872
3873It's not a -- it's not
3874
3875It's not a significant -- not a significant
3876
3877It's just merely a way that people within the FBI talk about
3878
3879things that are -- would describe, refer to a case that's managed out
3880of headquarters.
3881Mr. Jordan.
3882
3883So a case that gets managed out of headquarters, how
3884
3885that is decided, whether it's a headquarters managed case or the field
3886office managed case, is that completely subjective, or are there
3887objective elements you go through to make that determination?
3888Mr. McCabe.
3889case.
3890
3891I don't know how they made that determination in this
3892
3893It's not -- I don't believe there's a -- there's a specific
3894
3895policy for that, if that's what you're asking.
3896Mr. Jordan.
3897
3898And is there a specific policy for who gets put on
3899
3900a unique investigation or headquarters special type of investigation?
3901Mr. McCabe.
3902
3903I don't believe so.
3904
3905Mr. Jordan.
3906
3907No elements, just sort of ad hoc?
3908
3909Mr. McCabe.
3910
3911Well, I don't -- there is certainly policies that
3912
3913determine which programs are responsible for which investigations.
3914And so, this would clearly have been within the counterintelligence
3915COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
3916
391759
3918
3919COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
3920
3921program.
3922
3923And so by that designation, you then kind of define some of
3924
3925the people that are going to be working that issue.
3926Mr. Jordan.
3927
3928Got it.
3929
3930Mr. McCabe.
3931
3932It's more of a -- kind of an organic process.
3933
3934Mr. Jordan.
3935
3936You mentioned this is unique, but there have been
3937
3938others.
3939
3940You mentioned I think, specifically, the Hanssen
3941
3942investigation.
3943way?
3944
3945Was that team, to your knowledge, put together the same
3946
3947Was it sort of subjective, people in that area put together?
3948
3949Or
3950
3951was there some elements to determine who, in fact, made that team?
3952Mr. McCabe.
3953
3954I don't know the answer to that.
3955
3956Mr. Jordan.
3957
3958Last question I have, Mr. Chairman.
3959
3960So to have this type of investigation run out of the headquarters
3961and not out of the field office, who ultimately makes that decision?
3962Would that be Director Comey?
3963Mr. McCabe.
3964
3965No.
3966
3967It would likely be the Assistant Director with
3968
3969the -- in consultation with the EAD, and the Deputy Director, and
3970ultimately, the Director.
3971
3972But it wouldn't be a decision that would
3973
3974have to come to him for approval, if that's what you're asking.
3975Mr. Jordan.
3976
3977It would have to?
3978
3979Mr. McCabe.
3980
3981I don't believe it would.
3982
3983But he would,
3984
3985undoubtedly, be involved in the discussion around that.
3986Mr. Jordan.
3987
3988Okay.
3989
3990Mr. McCabe.
3991
3992Or at least be made aware of it.
3993
3994Mr. Jordan.
3995
3996Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
3997
3998Chairman Goodlatte.
3999
4000Thank you.
4001
4002COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
4003
400460
4005
4006COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
4007
4008Mr. McCabe, did you ever have any discussions with anyone about
4009the political ramifications of charging Secretary Clinton with a crime?
4010Mr. McCabe.
4011
4012The political ramifications of charging her with a
4013
4014crime?
4015Chairman Goodlatte.
4016Mr. McCabe.
4017
4018The political ramifications.
4019
4020I don't believe so.
4021
4022Chairman Goodlatte.
4023
4024Never?
4025
4026I mean, we've seen a lot of texts
4027
4028and emails that have been released by other people where there's a lot
4029of political discussion going on amongst different folks.
4030
4031But you
4032
4033never had any discussions with anyone regarding the political
4034ramifications with charging the former Secretary of State and
4035then-presidential-candidate Hillary Clinton with a crime?
4036Mr. McCabe.
4037
4038I mean, we were acutely aware of the fact that she
4039
4040was running for President, and that conducting an investigation in that
4041environment was challenging.
4042
4043But we did not discuss the political
4044
4045ramifications on Hillary Clinton or anyone else.
4046Chairman Goodlatte.
4047
4048You never talked about whether if we did
4049
4050something, it would have this ramification, if we didn't do something,
4051it would have this ramification?
4052Mr. McCabe.
4053
4054No, sir.
4055
4056Chairman Goodlatte.
4057
4058Have you ever had any communications
4059
4060discussing whether it is wise to charge or not charge an individual,
4061based on political considerations, rather than the facts, the evidence,
4062and the law?
4063Mr. McCabe.
4064
4065I can't imagine making a decision like that
4066COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
4067
4068COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
4069
407061
4071
4072along -- the way you described in the first part of your question.
4073Chairman Goodlatte.
4074
4075Okay.
4076
4077Are you aware of such conversations
4078
4079or discussions taking place at the FBI during the Clinton
4080investigation, even if you were not involved?
4081Mr. McCabe.
4082
4083Could you describe the conversations that you're
4084
4085referring to again?
4086Chairman Goodlatte.
4087
4088I'm talking about conversations where the
4089
4090political ramifications, political considerations, for charging or not
4091charging somebody took place?
4092Mr. McCabe.
4093
4094Okay.
4095
4096And am I aware of those conversations taking
4097
4098place?
4099Chairman Goodlatte.
4100Mr. McCabe.
4101
4102Yes.
4103
4104No, sir.
4105
4106Chairman Goodlatte.
4107
4108Are you aware of any pressure from the
4109
4110Department of Justice or any other high-ranking Obama administration
4111officials to arrive at a particular result in the Clinton
4112investigation?
4113Mr. McCabe.
4114
4115No, sir.
4116
4117Chairman Goodlatte.
4118
4119When did the FBI make the decision not to
4120
4121charge Secretary Clinton, before or after interviewing her?
4122Mr. McCabe.
4123
4124After, sir.
4125[McCabe Exhibit No. 1
4126Was marked for identification.]
4127
4128Chairman Goodlatte.
4129
4130I call your attention to Department of
4131
4132Justice production Bates number SJC-140, which we are marking as
4133COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
4134
413562
4136
4137COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
4138
4139Majority Exhibit 1.
4140
4141This document indicates that on May 2nd, 2016,
4142
4143Director Comey emailed a draft of his eventual Clinton investigation
4144statement to you, to Jim Rybicki, and to Jim Baker.
4145paragraph of the May 2 draft reads as follows:
4146
4147The penultimate
4148
4149Accordingly, although
4150
4151the Department of Justice makes final decisions on matters such as this,
4152I am completing the investigation by expressing to Justice my view that
4153no charges are appropriate in this case.
4154Can you see that in the document?
4155Mr. McCabe.
4156
4157Yes, sir.
4158
4159Chairman Goodlatte.
4160
4161This paragraph is virtually identical to
4162
4163what Director Comey eventually said more than 2 months later on
4164July 25, 2016, in recommending no charges against Secretary Clinton.
4165It seems to confirm that the FBI, including the Director, had made up
4166its mind not to charge Secretary Clinton before interviewing her.
4167
4168Does
4169
4170it not?
4171Mr. McCabe.
4172
4173It may seem that way reading it now.
4174
4175But I know that
4176
4177Director Comey had not made up his mind at that time.
4178Chairman Goodlatte.
4179Mr. McCabe.
4180
4181Why would that be written?
4182
4183I think Director Comey was working through what that
4184
4185conclusion would look like, and how he would articulate that conclusion
4186if that's, in fact, where we ended up.
4187Chairman Goodlatte.
4188
4189Did he have a separate one that had exactly
4190
4191the opposite conclusion that he had ready to go too?
4192Mr. McCabe.
4193
4194No, sir.
4195
4196If we recommended charges, that's a far
4197
4198more conventional result, and I don't believe we would have been in
4199COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
4200
420163
4202
4203COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
4204
4205the same position, thinking that a public statement would have been
4206necessary.
4207Chairman Goodlatte.
4208
4209I don't see anything even-handed here,
4210
4211though, where it says, well, I haven't made up my mind yet, I've got
4212this version if I make up my mind this way, and this version if I a
4213make up my mind this way.
4214
4215Instead, we have one version, and that
4216
4217version is to not charge.
4218
4219You don't think that reflects that the
4220
4221decision had already been made?
4222Mr. McCabe.
4223
4224I know that the decision had not been made at that
4225
4226time.
4227Chairman Goodlatte.
4228
4229This paragraph is -- if not, doesn't it show
4230
4231that the Director had decided, at least as early as May 2, a full
42322 months before interviewing Secretary Clinton, the subject of the
4233investigation, not to recommend charges against her?
4234
4235If he hadn't made
4236
4237the decision, he's making some kind of decision if he writes it down
4238like that.
4239Mr. McCabe.
4240
4241No, sir.
4242
4243I think it reflects that Director Comey
4244
4245thought that that was a possibility at that time.
4246Mr. Meadows.
4247
4248Mr. Chairman.
4249
4250Chairman Goodlatte.
4251Mr. Meadows.
4252
4253Yes.
4254
4255So is this common practice, in normal
4256
4257investigations of every type, to do a memo 2 months ahead of time to
4258lay out what you're going to say with a conclusion?
4259outside of this particular person.
4260
4261So let's take it
4262
4263How many other times does that
4264
4265happen?
4266COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
4267
426864
4269
4270COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
4271
4272Mr. McCabe.
4273Mr. Meadows.
4274
4275No, sir, it's not common.
4276So this is a unique situation where he did it this
4277
4278one time?
4279Mr. McCabe.
4280Mr. Meadows.
4281
4282This is the only time I am aware of, sir.
4283Okay.
4284
4285Chairman Goodlatte.
4286the second page, it says:
4287
4288Yield back.
4289So in exhibit 1, the last full paragraph on
4290"All told, we found XXX emails that were
4291
4292not among those produced to the State Department last year.
4293
4294Of those,
4295
4296we assess that XXX possibly contained classified information at the
4297time they were sent or received, and so we sent them to other government
4298agencies for classified determination.
4299
4300To date, agencies have
4301
4302concluded that XXX of those were classified at the time they were sent
4303or received, XXX at the secret level, and XXXX at the confidential
4304level.
4305
4306There were no additional top secret emails found.
4307
4308Finally,
4309
4310none of those we found have since been, quote, up-classified.
4311
4312How
4313
4314could he write all of that without having already come to the conclusion
4315that he was not going to indict former Secretary Clinton?
4316Mr. McCabe.
4317
4318Well, sir, you're asking me to speculate on what he
4319
4320was thinking when he wrote this draft.
4321
4322I don't think I can do that.
4323
4324I think that -- I do know that these were numbers that we were tracking
4325very closely throughout the investigation.
4326Chairman Goodlatte.
4327Mr. McCabe.
4328
4329So every --
4330
4331Let me ask you this --
4332
4333-- every week we would get updated on the numbers
4334
4335that he did not include in this paragraph.
4336
4337And so that was a constantly
4338
4339shifting -COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
4340
434165
4342
4343COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
4344
4345Chairman Goodlatte.
4346
4347Well, I've got that.
4348
4349But before he even
4350
4351knew what those numbers were, he had written a statement that said we're
4352not indicting.
4353
4354Why would he do that?
4355
4356Mr. McCabe.
4357
4358As I said, sir, I think Director Comey was working
4359
4360through what that conclusion would look like were we to end up there
4361at the conclusion of the investigation.
4362Chairman Goodlatte.
4363Mr. McCabe.
4364
4365Two months before the investigation --
4366
4367That's right, sir.
4368
4369Chairman Goodlatte.
4370Mr. McCabe.
4371
4372-- before she had even been interviewed.
4373
4374That's right, sir.
4375
4376Mr. Meadows.
4377
4378Mr. Chairman.
4379
4380Chairman Goodlatte.
4381Mr. Meadows.
4382
4383Yes, sir.
4384
4385So if we had made up our mind that you were guilty
4386
43872 months before coming here of some wrongdoing, would you find that
4388to be adequate?
4389
4390If I had a document that was prepared that suggested
4391
4392that Andrew McCabe was guilty of something 2 months ahead of time, would
4393you find that suspicious?
4394Mr. McCabe.
4395
4396That's a hypothetical that I'm probably not in a good
4397
4398position to weigh in on.
4399
4400I'd be surprised at the fact that you were
4401
4402considering my guilt or innocence.
4403Mr. Meadows.
4404
4405Do you find why the uniqueness of that particular
4406
4407document that the chairman is just talking about, the fact that it is
4408the only time that you're aware of, and you're a career employee of
4409the FBI -- stellar career, by Mr. Cummings -- wouldn't you find that
4410it is so unique that we would only find one example that you can recall,
4411COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
4412
441366
4414
4415COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
4416
4417in this particular case, where this happened?
4418Mr. McCabe.
4419Mr. Meadows.
4420
4421Where -Is this case so unique that you would have a
4422
4423prepared document 2 months ahead of interviewing the witness?
4424
4425Is that
4426
4427normal protocol within the FBI?
4428Mr. McCabe.
4429
4430It is not normal protocol within the FBI to release
4431
4432a statement about a case -Mr. Meadows.
4433Mr. McCabe.
4434Mr. Meadows.
4435
4436That's not the question I asked, Mr. McCabe.
4437-- we believed we were going to -Is it normal protocol -- is it normal protocol to
4438
4439draft a letter by the FBI 2 months before you interviewed the witness
4440to draw a conclusion?
4441Mr. McCabe.
4442Mr. Meadows.
4443Mr. McCabe.
4444that.
4445
4446Is that normal protocol?
4447
4448I have not seen that before, sir.
4449So your answer is no, it's not normal protocol?
4450I'm not aware of that protocol.
4451
4452I've never seen
4453
4454I haven't been through an experience like this in the pendency
4455
4456of my career.
4457
4458So, no, I've never seen that before.
4459
4460Mr. Meadows.
4461
4462I yield back.
4463
4464Chairman Gowdy.
4465
4466Deputy McCabe, let me see if we can approach it
4467
4468from another direction.
4469Mr. McCabe.
4470
4471When was Secretary Clinton interviewed?
4472
4473July -- I'm not sure of the exact date.
4474
4475But it was
4476
4477shortly -- a few days before the statement, before Director Comey made
4478a statement on the 5th.
4479Chairman Gowdy.
4480
4481So July 5, the statement was made to -- July 3,
4482
4483was that the when the interview took place?
4484COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
4485
448667
4487
4488COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
4489
4490Mr. McCabe.
4491
4492It sounds right, but I can't confirm that.
4493
4494We can.
4495
4496I just don't have.
4497Chairman Gowdy.
4498week?
4499
4500July 2.
4501
4502So July the 5th was what day of the
4503
4504Do you recall?
4505Mr. McCabe.
4506
4507I believe that was a Monday, to the best of my
4508
4509recollection.
4510Chairman Gowdy.
4511
4512All right.
4513
4514I guess what I'm trying to get at
4515
4516is that long list -Mr. McCabe.
4517
4518It was the day -- I'm sorry.
4519
4520the holiday weekend.
4521Chairman Gowdy.
4522
4523It was the day after
4524
4525So it was either a Monday or a Tuesday.
4526Right.
4527
4528It was a Monday or a Tuesday.
4529
4530So you
4531
4532got a holiday on July the 4th and maybe a weekend on the 3rd.
4533Mr. McCabe.
4534
4535Again, best of my recollection, Secretary Clinton
4536
4537was interviewed on the Saturday of that weekend.
4538Chairman Gowdy.
4539
4540Right, Saturday.
4541
4542conference was Tuesday.
4543
4544And I think the press
4545
4546So we've got Saturday.
4547
4548Then we got Monday, which may have been a holiday.
4549Tuesday.
4550
4551Then we got Sunday.
4552And then we've got
4553
4554That long list that you gave me of people who were part of
4555
4556this investigation, where did y'all meet to discuss her interview and
4557what you got out of that interview before you made the charging
4558decision.
4559Mr. McCabe.
4560
4561I discussed the results of the interview with
4562
4563members of the team over the phone.
4564the team met, I think, on Sunday.
4565Chairman Gowdy.
4566
4567And I know that other members of
4568
4569But I was not a part of that meeting.
4570
4571Why would you not have been a part of that
4572COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
4573
457468
4575
4576COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
4577
4578meeting?
4579Mr. McCabe.
4580
4581I don't recall.
4582
4583Chairman Gowdy.
4584
4585Was that a meeting to decide whether or not to
4586
4587make a charging decision?
4588Mr. McCabe.
4589
4590We were all focused on the results of the interview.
4591
4592The results of the interview, as I recall, were not significant.
4593Essentially, we didn't -- we didn't gather anything in the interview
4594that substantially changed our perception that we -- or
4595changed -- spoke to the issue of intent.
4596Mr. Meadows.
4597
4598Mr. Chairman.
4599
4600Chairman Gowdy.
4601Mr. Meadows.
4602
4603Yes.
4604
4605So let me make -- I'm confused.
4606
4607So Director Comey
4608
4609took all this time to draft a document to be well prepared, 2 months
4610ahead of time, interviews the key witness on a Saturday, and your whole
4611team did not get together to actually come up with the results before
4612you had a press conference?
4613Mr. McCabe.
4614
4615How do you reconcile the two of those?
4616
4617As I have said, I recall participating in a
4618
4619conference call with several members of the team on Saturday,
4620immediately after the interview.
4621Mr. Meadows.
4622
4623I did not participate in a meeting.
4624
4625Do you not find that -- if we're being so prepared,
4626
4627that 2 months ahead of time, that all of a sudden now what we're going
4628to do is we're going to have a telephone on the most critical, unique
4629investigation that we've had, and we're going to go ahead and spell
4630that on a Tuesday.
4631
4632Would you not think that the whole team would get
4633
4634together and review that?
4635COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
4636
463769
4638
4639COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
4640
4641Mr. McCabe.
4642Mr. Meadows.
4643
4644Sir, all I can tell you is I didn't.
4645I yield back.
4646
4647Chairman Gowdy.
4648interested in.
4649
4650There are two decisions that I'm really
4651
4652One is the decision that we've been referencing, which
4653
4654is whether or not it met the statutory elements.
4655
4656The other decision
4657
4658I'm interested in was Director Comey's decision to appropriate the
4659decision away from the Department of Justice.
4660made?
4661
4662When was that decision
4663
4664When was the decision made that the Bureau would handle the
4665
4666announcement of the decision and not the Department of Justice?
4667Mr. McCabe.
4668
4669Director Comey -- I'm sorry.
4670
4671Mr. Brower.
4672
4673I'm sorry.
4674
4675What decision?
4676
4677I'm unclear.
4678
4679What was that?
4680
4681Excuse me, Mr. Gowdy.
4682
4683The recommendation decision?
4684
4685Chairman Gowdy.
4686
4687No.
4688
4689The decision to appropriate the decision
4690
4691away from the Department of Justice.
4692
4693You and I have discussed it is
4694
4695an unusual fact pattern for the Bureau to announce charging decisions.
4696That's typically done by the prosecutor.
4697
4698It wasn't done in this case.
4699
4700At some point, Director Comey made the decision that he was going to
4701have a press conference and announce the decision on charging.
4702
4703When
4704
4705was the decision to take it away from the Department of Justice made?
4706Mr. McCabe.
4707
4708I don't know the exact -- I can't give you an exact
4709
4710date when Director Comey decided to make a public statement rather than
4711just conferring his recommendation to the Department privately.
4712don't know the exact date of that.
4713
4714I
4715
4716It was something that he began
4717
4718discussing with a -- with a group of us a few weeks before he made the
4719statement.
4720COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
4721
472270
4723
4724COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
4725
4726Chairman Gowdy.
4727
4728But it had to be before May, or there would be
4729
4730no need to draft what's a pretty unusual press statement.
4731Mr. McCabe.
4732
4733I don't believe that Director Comey had made the
4734
4735decision to go forward with the statement at the time he made the draft.
4736I think Director Comey -Chairman Gowdy.
4737Mr. McCabe.
4738
4739A lot of time --
4740
4741-- was examining it as a possibility.
4742
4743something he was considering.
4744
4745It was
4746
4747But if you're asking me when he decided
4748
4749to go forward with the statement, rather than a communication to the
4750Department, I don't know the date of that.
4751Chairman Gowdy.
4752
4753Deputy Director, it's not just a decision.
4754
4755It's an unprecedented decision.
4756
4757I cannot think of another fact pattern
4758
4759where a SAC appropriated the charging decision to himself and excluded
4760the Assistant United States Attorney or the United States Attorney.
4761So it's not unusual, it's unprecedented.
4762
4763So that's a lot of effort
4764
4765to be put into something that you haven't decided to do yet.
4766Mr. McCabe.
4767
4768Is that a question?
4769
4770Chairman Gowdy.
4771Mr. McCabe.
4772
4773Sure.
4774
4775Well, I don't -- I don't know that I agree with your
4776
4777premise that Director Comey appropriated the decision to charge from
4778the Department of Justice.
4779
4780Director Comey made the decision to make
4781
4782public his recommendation to the Department that we did not collect
4783the evidence necessary to support a charge.
4784Chairman Gowdy.
4785
4786You and I both know that those are distinctions
4787
4788that don't make a difference.
4789
4790When the head of the world's premier
4791
4792COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
4793
479471
4795
4796COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
4797
4798law enforcement agency tells the world, we don't have sufficient
4799evidence on an indispensable element of the offense, there is no way
4800to go forward.
4801
4802There is no prosecutor good enough to win that case,
4803
4804when the head of the investigatory entity has already concluded we don't
4805have an essential element.
4806
4807So his press conference was the decision.
4808
4809And I want to know when he made the decision to have the press
4810conference.
4811Mr. McCabe.
4812
4813I would say in the days -- as I said before, in the
4814
4815days immediately preceding the press conference.
4816Chairman Gowdy.
4817Mr. McCabe.
4818
4819Well, then why were you drafting a memo in May?
4820
4821I was not drafting a memo in May.
4822
4823drafted and shared a memo in May.
4824
4825Director Comey
4826
4827The best I can tell you, sir, is
4828
4829to my understanding, from my perception, at that time, Director Comey
4830was working through, in his own way, what that conclusion would look
4831like if that's where we ended up at the end of the case.
4832Mr. Ratcliffe.
4833Chairman Gowdy.
4834Mr. Ratcliffe.
4835
4836Mr. Chairman.
4837Yes.
4838Deputy Director, you just said that you believed
4839
4840that Director Comey made that decision in the days before the press
4841conference was actually held.
4842
4843That's entirely consistent with what
4844
4845Attorney General Lynch testified under oath.
4846
4847She said she took herself
4848
4849out of any decision-making following the June 30th tarmac meeting.
4850
4851To
4852
4853her words, she said she cast a shadow of a doubt on the integrity of
4854the Department of Justice.
4855
4856Likewise, Director Comey gave sworn
4857
4858testimony before various congressional committees that said that
4859COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
4860
486172
4862
4863COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
4864
4865tarmac meeting led heavily into his decision to hold the press
4866conference and to appropriate this decision.
4867
4868All of that lines up.
4869
4870What it doesn't line up with is his own memo of May the 2nd, where
4871he says, more than a month before that, "If I decided to do an FBI-only
4872press event," how do you reconcile that?
4873
4874How do you reconcile this
4875
4876with the sworn testimony, under oath, of then-Director Comey, Attorney
4877General Lynch, and yourself?
4878Mr. McCabe.
4879
4880Sir, all I can do is point you to Director Comey's
4881
4882language in which he says, I've been trying to imagine what it would
4883look like if I decided to do an FBI-only press event.
4884
4885And my
4886
4887understanding is that at that time, that's what he was doing.
4888Mr. Ratcliffe.
4889
4890You received this memo on the 2nd.
4891
4892And then you
4893
4894just testified under oath he made that decision a few days before.
4895testified under oath that he did as well.
4896It's inconsistent with that.
4897
4898He
4899
4900So did the Attorney General.
4901
4902Your own testimony today is inconsistent
4903
4904with it.
4905Mr. McCabe.
4906
4907I don't believe that the memo indicates that he had
4908
4909made the decision to go forward with the press event at the time he
4910drafted the memo.
4911
4912I think the memo says, as I interpret it, that he
4913
4914was thinking through what that would look like and what he would say,
4915but he hadn't made the final decision to do it.
4916Mr. Ratcliffe.
4917
4918Okay.
4919
4920So it sounds like you can't reconcile
4921
4922that.
4923Can you reconcile -Mr. McCabe.
4924
4925That's what I said.
4926
4927But --
4928
4929COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
4930
493173
4932
4933COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
4934
4935Mr. Ratcliffe.
4936
4937Can you reconcile for me how the language in this
4938
4939memo, the very specific language about Hillary Clinton not acting
4940intentionally but only acting carelessly, or being careless with
4941respect to the handling of classified information, and that she didn't
4942intend to harm our national security, the language in here, in this
4943May 2nd memo, is exactly the same language that President Obama used
4944publicly a month before, on April the 10th?
4945Mr. McCabe.
4946
4947I'm not aware of that.
4948
4949Mr. Ratcliffe.
4950
4951Can you reconcile that, how he would have used
4952
4953that exact same language publicly?
4954Mr. McCabe.
4955
4956I can't explain to you why Director Comey chose to
4957
4958use the language he did.
4959Chairman Goodlatte.
4960
4961Let me follow up on this.
4962
4963So your testimony
4964
4965is that this was all just speculation on the Director's part, that this
4966would be one alternative, not just the decision, but also that it be
4967an FBI-only decision?
4968Mr. McCabe.
4969
4970I think what I have said, sir, is that at this time,
4971
4972he was exploring this.
4973
4974As I read the document and recollect our
4975
4976exchanges, he was exploring this as an option.
4977
4978I don't believe he had
4979
4980made the final decision to do this at that time.
4981Chairman Goodlatte.
4982until you get there.
4983
4984Well, I guess the final decision isn't final
4985
4986But all of this took place before Secretary
4987
4988Clinton was interviewed, correct?
4989Mr. McCabe.
4990
4991That's correct.
4992
4993Chairman Goodlatte.
4994
4995Let me ask you this:
4996
4997COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
4998
4999How many other
5000
500174
5002
5003COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
5004
5005witnesses were interviewed by the Bureau after this memo was written?
5006Mr. McCabe.
5007
5008I don't know the answer to that, sir.
5009
5010Chairman Goodlatte.
5011Mr. McCabe.
5012
5013I don't know.
5014
5015certainly find that out.
5016Chairman Goodlatte.
5017Mr. McCabe.
5018
5019Was it more than 10?
5020I wouldn't want to speculate.
5021
5022We can
5023
5024I just don't know.
5025More than 20?
5026
5027I don't know, sir.
5028
5029Chairman Goodlatte.
5030
5031I do know.
5032
5033It's more than 20, in fact.
5034
5035Why
5036
5037would the Secretary do that with more than 20 witnesses ahead and the
5038subject of the investigation?
5039Mr. McCabe.
5040
5041Why would the Secretary do that?
5042
5043Chairman Goodlatte.
5044Mr. McCabe.
5045
5046Why would the Director do that?
5047
5048As I've said, sir, I think I've been pretty clear
5049
5050about my understanding of what Director Comey was trying to do with
5051the memo.
5052Chairman Goodlatte.
5053
5054And I guess in answer to my earlier
5055
5056question, let me ask you again, to your knowledge, was there an
5057alternate draft statement recommending that Secretary Clinton be
5058charged?
5059Mr. McCabe.
5060
5061Not to my knowledge, sir.
5062
5063Chairman Goodlatte.
5064
5065Did you edit this statement before it was
5066
5067finalized?
5068Mr. McCabe.
5069
5070I did not.
5071
5072Chairman Goodlatte.
5073Mr. McCabe.
5074
5075Did you comment on it?
5076
5077I'm sure I was present when we discussed it, but I
5078COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
5079
508075
5081
5082COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
5083
5084don't remember specific comments that I made.
5085Chairman Goodlatte.
5086
5087Did you or anyone else see a problem with
5088
5089drawing a conclusion about the investigation before interviewing the
5090subject of the investigation and nearly two dozen other witnesses?
5091Mr. McCabe.
5092the case.
5093
5094We had many, many discussions about every aspect of
5095
5096I don't remember discussing that specifically, but it's
5097
5098possible.
5099Chairman Goodlatte.
5100
5101Well, leaving aside the fact that the
5102
5103statement by the FBI was, as Mr. Gowdy says, unprecedented, are you
5104familiar with any other criminal investigation where before two dozen
5105witnesses were interviewed, and the subject of the investigation was
5106interviewed, that you were sitting around talking about how you would
5107say that the Secretary is not going to be indicted, or that the subject
5108of the investigation is not going to be indicted?
5109Mr. McCabe.
5110
5111I think it's fairly common for investigators to
5112
5113discuss where they think they are in a case and to assess the evidence
5114that they've collected at that point, wherever that point might be when
5115they have that discussion.
5116
5117So I think that is fairly common.
5118
5119As I've
5120
5121said -Chairman Goodlatte.
5122
5123But it's not common to get all the way to
5124
5125the conclusion or the remarks that would be used in the conclusion at
5126that point.
5127Mr. McCabe.
5128
5129Again, I don't -- I think I've been clear that I do
5130
5131not believe that Director Comey had made a decision about the conclusion
5132of the case during the draft of the memo.
5133COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
5134
513576
5136
5137COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
5138
5139Chairman Goodlatte.
5140
5141Well, then who included that paragraph
5142
5143about no charges are appropriate?
5144
5145Was that the Director or was that
5146
5147somebody else?
5148Mr. McCabe.
5149
5150All I know, sir, is the -- the draft that the
5151
5152Director circulated.
5153
5154I assume that's his product.
5155
5156Chairman Goodlatte.
5157
5158The paragraph that reads:
5159
5160"Accordingly,
5161
5162although the Department of Justice makes final decisions on matters
5163such as this, I am completing the investigation by expressing to Justice
5164my view that no charges are appropriate in this case."
5165Mr. McCabe.
5166
5167That's the draft that was --
5168
5169Chairman Goodlatte.
5170Mr. McCabe.
5171
5172-- sent to me by Director Comey.
5173
5174Chairman Goodlatte.
5175Mr. McCabe.
5176
5177That was done by --
5178
5179Sent to you by Director Comey.
5180
5181Yes.
5182[Majority Exhibit No. 2
5183Was marked for identification.]
5184
5185Chairman Goodlatte.
5186
5187I called your attention to Department of
5188
5189Justice production Exhibit Bates number SJC-5, which we're marking as
5190Majority Exhibit 2.
5191
5192This document shows that on May 6, 2016, you
5193
5194emailed a draft to Director Comey's statement to four individuals,
5195William Priestap, Peter Strzok,
5196name is redacted.
5197
5198, and an individual whose
5199
5200Your email states that the Director asked you to
5201
5202share this with those four, but not any further.
5203
5204Who is the fourth
5205
5206person with whom you shared that draft?
5207Mr. McCabe.
5208
5209I don't know, sir.
5210
5211But it is our practice to redact
5212
5213COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
5214
521577
5216
5217COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
5218
5219the names of individuals who are not SES-level employees of the FBI
5220in these sort of productions.
5221Chairman Goodlatte.
5222Mr. McCabe.
5223
5224And who would have done that redaction?
5225
5226I don't know.
5227
5228I mean, I'm not sure where this one
5229
5230came from.
5231Chairman Goodlatte.
5232
5233It's an unclassified document.
5234
5235don't see any reason why that name would not be shared.
5236
5237I mean, I
5238
5239It's a pretty
5240
5241high-level -Mr. McCabe.
5242
5243As I've just stated, sir, that's just a -- as I
5244
5245understand it, our Bureau policy is we redact the names of non-SES-level
5246persons.
5247Mr. Meadows.
5248
5249Mr. Chairman.
5250
5251Let me be clear, we don't abide by your Bureau policy.
5252let me be further clear.
5253
5254And so
5255
5256If it was so important to share with only
5257
5258a handful of people, then it is critically important we know who the
5259other person is.
5260
5261And so do you have any reason, other than Department
5262
5263policy, to not share that information with this group?
5264
5265Because you
5266
5267can't have it both ways, Mr. McCabe.
5268Mr. McCabe.
5269Mr. Meadows.
5270
5271I'm sorry?
5272You can't have it both ways.
5273
5274You can't say that
5275
5276they're so important to actually opine on the valid reason unless it's
5277a classified individual that we need to go into a classified setting
5278to understand.
5279Mr. McCabe.
5280
5281Sir, I don't know -- I don't know whose name is
5282
5283underneath the redaction.
5284
5285I can simply tell you our normal process
5286
5287COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
5288
528978
5290
5291COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
5292
5293is to redact the names of people who are not SES-level officials.
5294
5295If
5296
5297you would like to know who that person is, I am happy to take that request
5298back, discuss it with the General Counsel, and we'll get you an answer.
5299Mr. Ratcliffe.
5300
5301Chairman.
5302
5303Chairman Goodlatte.
5304Mr. Ratcliffe.
5305
5306Go ahead.
5307
5308Deputy Director, I hope you understand why we
5309
5310want to find out the folks that were involved in -Mr. McCabe.
5311
5312I do.
5313
5314Mr. Ratcliffe.
5315
5316-- making these edits.
5317
5318Because, clearly, based
5319
5320on this you were being asked to edit what would be the final product
5321from May the 2nd, Comey's first email on this.
5322not calling for a legal conclusion here.
5323
5324My question is -- I'm
5325
5326The statute very
5327
5328clearly -- and, in fact, this May 2 email says, "violation of Federal
5329statute makes it a felony to mishandle classified information either
5330intentionally or in a grossly negligent way."
5331
5332But you have repeatedly
5333
5334said we weren't finding evidence of intent.
5335
5336At what point were you
5337
5338told that intent was the element that you were focusing on, and grossly
5339negligent wasn't going to be enough for the team to then begin editing
5340to that point?
5341Chairman Goodlatte.
5342time is just about up.
5343redaction, if I may.
5344Mr. McCabe.
5345
5346I want to ask one more question related to this
5347After the redaction, it has OGC.
5348
5349Yes, sir.
5350
5351Chairman Goodlatte.
5352Mr. McCabe.
5353
5354Before we get into that whole subject, our
5355
5356So that's the Office of General Counsel?
5357
5358That's right.
5359COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
5360
5361COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
5362
5363Chairman Goodlatte.
5364Mr. McCabe.
5365
536679
5367
5368So would that have been Lisa Page?
5369
5370I don't know who it is.
5371
5372It is possible it could be.
5373
5374That's certainly possible, but I don't want to confirm for you -Chairman Goodlatte.
5375Mr. McCabe.
5376
5377You don't know or you don't recall?
5378
5379I don't recall.
5380
5381Chairman Goodlatte.
5382Mr. McCabe.
5383
5384I don't know as I sit here today.
5385
5386Because you prepared this document.
5387
5388That's right, sir, on May 6, 2016.
5389
5390Chairman Goodlatte.
5391
5392Got it.
5393
5394Okay.
5395
5396So you will take back to the
5397
5398Department our request that we find out whose name is on -Mr. McCabe.
5399
5400Yes, sir.
5401
5402Chairman Goodlatte.
5403
5404-- the redacted thing.
5405
5406Our time has expired.
5407Mr. Johnson of Georgia.
5408sir.
5409
5410Thank you for your appearance today,
5411
5412In your opinion, was the final statement of Director Comey that
5413
5414was given on July 5th factually accurate?
5415Mr. McCabe.
5416
5417Yes, sir.
5418
5419Mr. Johnson of Georgia.
5420no. 1.
5421
5422Let me ask you about deposition exhibit
5423
5424The outline of what Director Comey would say on July 5 is pretty
5425
5426much incorporated in this document.
5427Mr. McCabe.
5428
5429Is that correct?
5430
5431It is substantially similar to what he actually said
5432
5433on the 5th.
5434Mr. Johnson of Georgia.
5435
5436What percentage of the emails that the
5437
5438FBI secured from Clinton, what percentage of those emails had been
5439reviewed prior to May 2, 2016?
5440Mr. McCabe.
5441
5442Sir, I can't give you a specific percentage.
5443COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
5444
5445But
5446
5447COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
5448
544980
5450
5451I can tell you it's the vast majority.
5452Mr. Johnson of Georgia.
5453
5454And so it was already known at that time
5455
5456what those emails would be classified as, either top secret, secret,
5457whatever?
5458Mr. McCabe.
5459
5460Yes, sir.
5461
5462With the very small exception of if we
5463
5464were still engaged in discussion with one partner about one or two
5465emails.
5466
5467I mean, the numbers were changing in very, very small ways.
5468
5469There was some flexibility, but it was not substantial.
5470Mr. Johnson of Georgia.
5471
5472So the email investigation had pretty
5473
5474much been wrapped up as of May 2.
5475Mr. McCabe.
5476
5477Is that correct?
5478
5479The majority of the emails we looked at had already
5480
5481been looked at by that point.
5482Mr. Johnson of Georgia.
5483
5484Can you explain to us why were DOJ
5485
5486officials not copied on the email that is Deposition Exhibit 1?
5487Mr. McCabe.
5488
5489Sir, I don't know why Director Comey didn't include
5490
5491anyone from the Department on that email.
5492Mr. Johnson of Georgia.
5493
5494You had already testified today that
5495
5496senior officials of DOJ were not involved in the day-to-day aspects
5497of the investigation, correct?
5498Mr. McCabe.
5499
5500That's correct, sir.
5501
5502Mr. Johnson of Georgia.
5503
5504And there were some lower-level DOJ
5505
5506officials who were involved.
5507Mr. McCabe.
5508
5509That's right.
5510
5511Mr. Johnson of Georgia.
5512
5513And why was it that the higher level DOJ
5514
5515officials were not involved in the day-to-day investigation?
5516COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
5517
551881
5519
5520COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
5521
5522Mr. McCabe.
5523
5524My understanding, sir -- and I was not there when
5525
5526this decision was made -- but it was later explained to me that they
5527had decided at the outset of the case that the Attorney General, and
5528the DAG, and Mr. Carlin, because of the nature of their political
5529positions, would not be involved in a day-to-day way on the case.
5530Mr. Johnson of Georgia.
5531
5532All right.
5533
5534Did you have any concerns
5535
5536at all with the content of deposition exhibit No. 1?
5537
5538Did you then and
5539
5540do you now?
5541Mr. McCabe.
5542
5543With the content of what he said in the email?
5544
5545Mr. Johnson of Georgia.
5546
5547I'm sorry.
5548
5549The final -- the statement
5550
5551that Director Comey made on July 5th.
5552Mr. McCabe.
5553
5554Yes, sir.
5555
5556Mr. Johnson of Georgia.
5557
5558Did you have any problems with its
5559
5560content then or now?
5561Mr. McCabe.
5562
5563No, sir.
5564
5565Mr. Johnson of Georgia.
5566
5567Did anyone on the team express any
5568
5569concern or disagreement with respect to the content of that July 5th
5570statement by Director Comey?
5571Mr. McCabe.
5572case.
5573
5574Sir, we had many, many conversations about this
5575
5576We met almost on a daily basis, every couple days, certainly.
5577
5578We were constantly getting updated on everything from the email
5579exploitation to what was happening in the interviews, everything else.
5580And we kept a very close watch over our understanding of what the
5581case looked like and the quality of the evidence and the fact that we
5582didn't have the, quote/unquote, smoking gun that would show intent in
5583COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
5584
558582
5586
5587COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
5588
5589a way that would have made us think differently about the case.
5590I can't sit here and tell you that over the course of those
5591probably daily conversations leading up to his statement, that people
5592didn't have conflicting views and offer alternative thoughts about it.
5593They may have.
5594But by the time Director Comey went forward with his statement,
5595I can tell you that there was complete consensus across the team about
5596how we looked at the case, how we understood the quality of the evidence
5597in the case, the fact that we did not believe it was appropriate to
5598pursue charges.
5599Our recommendation to the Department would be that we did not
5600think there was appropriate charges to pursue.
5601
5602That was the broad
5603
5604consensus of all the folks on the team.
5605So when Director Comey made that statement on the 5th, the team
5606was fully aware of it, and I'm not aware of any disagreements with it.
5607Mr. Johnson of Georgia.
5608
5609Now, with respect to Secretary Clinton's
5610
5611interview on July 2nd, did it provide the FBI with any new or
5612significant relevant information about the investigation?
5613Mr. McCabe.
5614
5615No, sir, it did not.
5616
5617It confirmed much of what we
5618
5619had learned about the Secretary during the course of the investigation.
5620She confirmed her practices and habits with technology, with use of
5621email, her really fairly -- I don't to characterize.
5622
5623She's not an IT
5624
5625person, if you understand what I'm saying.
5626And, no, she didn't -- she didn't change -- she didn't say
5627anything in the course of that interview that changed our understanding
5628COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
5629
563083
5631
5632COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
5633
5634of her and her involvement in the use of the email system.
5635Mr. Johnson of Georgia.
5636
5637And if she had said anything that would
5638
5639have provided you with new or significant information, it would have
5640changed the July 5th statement by Director Comey.
5641
5642Is that true or
5643
5644false?
5645Mr. McCabe.
5646
5647That's true, sir.
5648
5649Had she said something, we would have considered what she said
5650and been completely open to any possible path forward.
5651Mr. Johnson of Georgia.
5652
5653So how long was that interview with
5654
5655Hillary Clinton, by the way?
5656Mr. McCabe.
5657
5658I don't know the answer to that, sir.
5659
5660I don't
5661
5662recall.
5663Mr. Johnson of Georgia.
5664
5665All right.
5666
5667Did you feel that a
5668
5669telephone conference call after the Hillary Clinton
5670investigation -- or, excuse me, the Hillary Clinton interview -- was
5671the telephone consultation that you were a part of, did you feel that
5672that was sufficient in terms of a discussion of what occurred during
5673that interview?
5674Mr. McCabe.
5675
5676I did, sir.
5677
5678I felt the team very clearly
5679
5680articulated to me their position, their observations, and conveyed the
5681thoughts of the Department attorneys who were present for the
5682interview, both the results of the interview and what they thought of
5683those results, which was that they did not come across anything
5684significant that -- I'm sorry, am I not speaking loud enough?
5685Mr. Johnson of Georgia.
5686
5687Did you think at that time that the
5688
5689COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
5690
569184
5692
5693COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
5694
5695discussion on the telephone conference about what was learned during
5696the Hillary Clinton interview established a need for a more formal
5697meeting with the team?
5698Mr. McCabe.
5699
5700No, sir.
5701
5702Mr. Johnson of Georgia.
5703Ms. Jayapal.
5704
5705I'll yield to my colleagues.
5706
5707Director McCabe, I want to say thank you very much
5708
5709for your exemplary and distinguished service.
5710Mr. McCabe.
5711Ms. Jayapal.
5712
5713Thank you.
5714And I think we'll come back to this.
5715
5716But your
5717
5718passion for the work you do and for the protection of our country is
5719truly remarkable.
5720Mr. McCabe.
5721Ms. Jayapal.
5722Mr. McCabe.
5723Ms. Jayapal.
5724
5725Thank you.
5726And I'm glad you are where you are.
5727Thank you.
5728I want to continue on this line of questioning.
5729
5730This memo, deposition exhibit No. 1, is addressed to you and two
5731other people.
5732Mr. McCabe.
5733Ms. Jayapal.
5734
5735Yes.
5736Could you tell us who those two other people are
5737
5738for the record so that everybody understands?
5739Mr. McCabe.
5740
5741Yes.
5742
5743One is James Baker, who is the general counsel
5744
5745of the FBI, and one is James Rybicki, who is the Director's chief of
5746staff.
5747Ms. Jayapal.
5748
5749Would you say that these three individuals,
5750
5751yourself included, are at the highest levels of the FBI in terms of
5752COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
5753
575485
5755
5756COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
5757
5758consultation to the Director?
5759Mr. McCabe.
5760
5761Yes.
5762
5763Ms. Jayapal.
5764
5765And, Mr. McCabe, is it -- was it unusual for him
5766
5767to consult with his top level teams about very difficult matters that
5768he was facing?
5769Mr. McCabe.
5770
5771No.
5772
5773No.
5774
5775That was very typical.
5776
5777Director Comey
5778
5779is a very collaborative leader and somebody who relied on the kind of
5780give-and-take of ideas and difference of opinions.
5781
5782So he -- that was
5783
5784his practice.
5785Ms. Jayapal.
5786
5787So were you surprised to get this memo from him in
5788
5789terms of, you know, his questioning to the people that he trusted the
5790most, at the highest levels of the FBI, including his legal counsel,
5791about a very difficult investigation that the FBI was conducting?
5792In your words, you used "unique" earlier.
5793
5794I think you were trying
5795
5796to say that the conditions surrounding the investigation with a
5797Presidential candidate was unique.
5798
5799Did it occur to you as unusual in
5800
5801any way, unprecedented in any way?
5802Mr. McCabe.
5803
5804The fact that he would discuss an issue like this,
5805
5806in a case like this, with the small group of people, was typical.
5807
5808That
5809
5810didn't surprise me.
5811I don't know that I expected to receive a draft of a statement
5812on the day that I received this.
5813
5814But, nevertheless, Director Comey,
5815
5816as I stated, relied on -- you know, frequently relied on myself,
5817Mr. Baker, Mr. Rybicki, and others when he was still working on and
5818thinking about his path forward on any number of challenging issues.
5819COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
5820
582186
5822
5823COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
5824
5825Ms. Jayapal.
5826
5827And you have said that this memo was really about
5828
5829that, thinking about his path forward.
58302, page 2.
5831
5832And I direct you to deposition
5833
5834And you say -- this is your response as you forwarded the
5835
5836email on to four individuals -- you said, "The Director composed the
5837below strawman in an effort to compose what a 'final' statement might
5838look like.
5839
5840This was really more of an exercise for him to get his
5841
5842thoughts on the matter in order and not any kind of a decision about
5843venue, strategy, product, et cetera."
5844So let me ask you, Director McCabe, again, do you stand by what
5845you said in that email?
5846Mr. McCabe.
5847Ms. Jayapal.
5848
5849I do, yes.
5850Was there a decision that had been made at that
5851
5852moment and then somehow Director Comey delayed it by 2 months, or was
5853he just testing out his thinking around a very difficult case, one that
5854involved a Presidential candidate at the time?
5855Mr. McCabe.
5856
5857Yes.
5858
5859If I could explain.
5860
5861As I said earlier today, we spent a lot of time
5862discussing -- thinking about and discussing that issue of, what does
5863the end of this case look like?
5864There's essentially two alternatives.
5865traditional.
5866thought.
5867
5868One of them is very
5869
5870That didn't require a draft statement or a lot of
5871
5872If we were in a position to go to the Department and say,
5873
5874"We believe that" -- "Here's the evidence we've collected, we believe
5875it supports the following charges," and we proceed towards prosecution,
5876there is no public statement about that.
5877
5878The indictment, the
5879
5880COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
5881
588287
5883
5884COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
5885
5886affidavits, those things stand on their own.
5887
5888So you didn't need to
5889
5890think through what the end looked like if the decision had been to pursue
5891charges.
5892On the other hand, a highly unusual, unique set of facts that we
5893found ourselves, the Director felt, in light of the fact that the
5894existence of the case was already public, the world was essentially
5895focused on it, constantly speculating on what were we doing, when would
5896we end it, what would the decision be, how would they hear about it,
5897he felt the need to think through, if that's where we end up, how do
5898I do that?
5899say?
5900
5901Who best to make the statement?
5902
5903What would the statement
5904
5905How are we thinking about the case right now?
5906Ms. Jayapal.
5907
5908And let me ask you, because, you know, certainly
5909
5910people on both sides of the aisle have felt different ways about
5911Director Comey at various times, but let me ask you if you think it
5912is an asset for a Director to, in very difficult situations, consult
5913with people that he trusts, a small team, so that he is sure that he
5914is getting the best amount of information about a particular issue.
5915Is that, in your opinion, a good quality for a Director to have?
5916Mr. McCabe.
5917Ms. Jayapal.
5918Mr. McCabe.
5919Ms. Jayapal.
5920Mr. McCabe.
5921Ms. Jayapal.
5922
5923I think it's a good quality for any leader to have.
5924And do you do that -I do.
5925-- Mr. McCabe?
5926I do.
5927With your top deputies in decisions that are very,
5928
5929very tough?
5930COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
5931
593288
5933
5934COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
5935
5936Mr. McCabe.
5937Ms. Jayapal.
5938
5939Yes.
5940So, Mr. McCabe, do you think that there's anything
5941
5942in these two deposition items that is worthy of note in any way, shape,
5943or form?
5944Mr. McCabe.
5945
5946Not to me.
5947
5948I mean, I -- you know, I -- as I said,
5949
5950I -- look, I understand that the announcement in July on this case was
5951something that was -- has been described by Mr. Gowdy as unprecedented.
5952It was -- it was not normal course of business for us.
5953
5954But we were
5955
5956far from normal business at that moment.
5957And I understand that people have very strong and very different
5958opinions about whether or not we should have conducted our business
5959that way.
5960
5961And that's, as I said, perfectly reasonable, perfectly
5962
5963understandable.
5964Ms. Jayapal.
5965
5966Do you think it was also unprecedented that the FBI
5967
5968was, in fact, investigating both Presidential candidates at the same
5969time?
5970Mr. McCabe.
5971
5972I am not aware of that ever happening before.
5973
5974Ms. Jayapal.
5975
5976And do you think it is -- do you think it's
5977
5978unprecedented that Director Comey made an announcement 11 days before
5979the election about the reopening of an investigation into Hillary
5980Clinton's emails and then, just a few days after that, ended up saying,
5981actually, we've gone through the emails, and there was nothing there?
5982You can disagree or agree, but I'm just asking you about whether
5983you think that was unprecedented, that 11 days before an election he
5984would choose to comment on an open investigation into a Presidential
5985COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
5986
598789
5988
5989COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
5990
5991candidate.
5992Mr. McCabe.
5993
5994Again, I can't speak to what he thought around that
5995
5996decision because I was not a part of that decision.
5997
5998But I am not aware
5999
6000of any Director ever having been stuck in quite a similar situation
6001or handling it a similar way.
6002Ms. Jayapal.
6003
6004Thank you.
6005
6006And I will yield to my colleague.
6007Mr. Krishnamoorthi.
6008
6009Thank you very much.
6010
6011And thank you for your
6012
6013service to our country.
6014Mr. McCabe.
6015
6016Thank you.
6017
6018Mr. Krishnamoorthi.
6019
6020First of all, did you harbor any bias in the
6021
6022handling of the investigation into Hillary Clinton's emails?
6023Mr. McCabe.
6024
6025Absolutely not, sir.
6026
6027Mr. Krishnamoorthi.
6028
6029Do you believe that
6030
6031Secretary -- Director Comey harbored any bias in this particular
6032investigation?
6033Mr. McCabe.
6034
6035No, sir.
6036
6037Mr. Krishnamoorthi.
6038
6039Are you aware of anybody who harbored any
6040
6041political bias at the FBI in investigating Hillary Clinton's emails?
6042Mr. McCabe.
6043
6044I was not aware of any political bias during the
6045
6046course of that investigation in any way whatsoever.
6047Mr. Krishnamoorthi.
6048
6049Have you seen any evidence in your 21 years
6050
6051at the FBI of anybody harboring political bias in their investigation
6052of any subject matter at the FBI?
6053Mr. McCabe.
6054
6055The short answer, sir, is no.
6056COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
6057
6058I am aware of the work
6059
606090
6061
6062COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
6063
6064of the inspector general right now on two people who were formerly
6065members of this team and part of the special counsel's team.
6066
6067I'm not
6068
6069going to weigh in on that investigation.
6070But putting that, the inspector general's work aside, no, sir,
6071I am not aware of political bias playing a role in FBI decisionmaking.
6072Mr. Krishnamoorthi.
6073
6074What is -- if you did see evidence of any
6075
6076political bias, what would you do in that situation?
6077Mr. McCabe.
6078
6079I mean, as the supervisor, a leader of people who
6080
6081you suspected of having a political bias that could in any way taint
6082the investigation they were involved in, you would remove those people
6083from the investigation.
6084Mr. Krishnamoorthi.
6085
6086So there's a self-correcting mechanism
6087
6088within the FBI to remove taint of political bias in the investigation
6089of any subject matter that comes before the FBI.
6090Mr. McCabe.
6091
6092Isn't that right?
6093
6094That is correct.
6095
6096Mr. Krishnamoorthi.
6097
6098And what would you say to the charge that
6099
6100the FBI and this investigation of Hillary Clinton's emails are infected
6101with bias, as one of my colleagues charged the other day?
6102Mr. McCabe.
6103
6104It is not correct, sir.
6105
6106Mr. Krishnamoorthi.
6107
6108What would you say to the charge that you
6109
6110are corrupt and that the management of the FBI is corrupt in the
6111investigation of Hillary Clinton's emails?
6112Mr. McCabe.
6113
6114That is absolutely incorrect and offensive.
6115
6116Mr. Krishnamoorthi.
6117
6118What would you say to the charge that the
6119
6120FBI had lost confidence in Director Comey before he was fired by the
6121COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
6122
6123COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
6124
612591
6126
6127President?
6128Mr. McCabe.
6129
6130That is not true, sir.
6131
6132Mr. Krishnamoorthi.
6133
6134Thank you, sir.
6135
6136Thank you for your service
6137
6138to our country and your honesty in answering these questions.
6139Mr. McCabe.
6140
6141Thank you, sir.
6142
6143Mr. Raskin.
6144
6145Mr. McCabe, I want to also issue my thanks for your
6146
6147honorable service to our country.
6148
6149And you bring me back to my days
6150
6151as an assistant attorney general working with law enforcement officers
6152who have your kind of dedication and commitment to the rule of law.
6153I want to ask, have you done political corruption investigations
6154in the course of your career?
6155Mr. McCabe.
6156investigations.
6157
6158I have overseen political corruption
6159I was never the case agent investigator on a political
6160
6161corruption case.
6162Mr. Raskin.
6163
6164Okay.
6165
6166And those are sensitive investigations.
6167
6168Would you agree?
6169Mr. McCabe.
6170
6171They are.
6172
6173Mr. Raskin.
6174
6175The targets of them will be either Democrats or
6176
6177Republicans or independents.
6178
6179They'll have some kind of political
6180
6181affiliation.
6182Do you assign agents in a case like that based on the political
6183party registration or affiliation of the agent?
6184Mr. McCabe.
6185
6186No, sir.
6187
6188We don't ask the political party or
6189
6190affiliation of our agents.
6191Mr. Raskin.
6192
6193Okay.
6194
6195And so that would be considered an
6196
6197COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
6198
619992
6200
6201COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
6202
6203illegitimate thing to do, to assign Democrats to just investigate a
6204Republican or Republicans to investigate a Democrat.
6205
6206You don't look
6207
6208into that?
6209Mr. McCabe.
6210
6211No, sir, not at all.
6212
6213Mr. Raskin.
6214
6215Okay.
6216
6217There's been much made of these text messages
6218
6219that were sent by an agent named Peter Strzok -Mr. McCabe.
6220
6221Yes, sir.
6222
6223Mr. Raskin.
6224
6225-- if I'm pronouncing it correctly.
6226
6227Mr. McCabe.
6228
6229You are.
6230
6231Mr. Raskin.
6232
6233We had a, you know, a whole hearing that was pretty
6234
6235much taken over by that discussion.
6236
6237And there's been much in the news
6238
6239about Mr. Strzok, who seems to have disliked politicians across the
6240board.
6241
6242He called Bernie Sanders an idiot.
6243
6244He called Donald Trump an
6245
6246idiot.
6247
6248He had harsh words for the former Governor of my State, Martin
6249
6250O'Malley.
6251Were you involved in the decision to remove Peter Strzok from the
6252special counsel investigation?
6253Mr. McCabe.
6254
6255Yes.
6256
6257Mr. Raskin.
6258
6259And how did it come to the attention of his superiors
6260
6261that these text messages existed?
6262Mr. McCabe.
6263
6264On July 27th of this year, as I was serving as acting
6265
6266director, I was contacted by the attorney -- I'm sorry -- the inspector
6267general's office at the Department.
6268
6269They asked me -- they said they
6270
6271had a very important matter for me to review and they needed me to come
6272across the street and talk to them that day, which was unusual.
6273COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
6274
627593
6276
6277COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
6278
6279Mr. Raskin.
6280
6281You learned of it on July 27th?
6282
6283Mr. McCabe.
6284
6285I did.
6286
6287Mr. Raskin.
6288
6289And then at what point was he removed from the
6290
6291investigation and reassigned?
6292Mr. McCabe.
6293
6294I made the decision to remove him from the
6295
6296investigation that evening.
6297Mr. Raskin.
6298
6299That very day you decided to remove him?
6300
6301Mr. McCabe.
6302
6303I came back from my meeting with the inspector
6304
6305general.
6306
6307I met with a very small group of my fellow leaders.
6308
6309We
6310
6311discussed Peter's reassignment, and we discussed where we would place
6312him.
6313Mr. McCabe.
6314
6315Okay.
6316
6317Now, just to take the devil advocate's
6318
6319position, someone might have said, well, he expressed very vigorous
6320criticism and opinions of Governor O'Malley, of Bernie Sanders, of
6321Donald Trump, other people.
6322
6323Why was he not entitled to those private
6324
6325opinions expressed in the texts?
6326
6327Could he have made the argument that
6328
6329it didn't affect his public performance?
6330Mr. McCabe.
6331
6332He certainly could and he certainly may.
6333
6334What I
6335
6336knew at that point was that the inspector general was investigating
6337Mr. Strzok and Ms. Page for potential political bias.
6338
6339And simply the
6340
6341existence of that investigation I felt was -- could place in jeopardy
6342the work of the special counsel's team, and I did not -- I could not
6343possibly take that risk.
6344Mr. Raskin.
6345
6346Did you think it created the appearance of potential
6347
6348bias on the part of someone working on the team?
6349COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
6350
6351COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
6352
6353Mr. McCabe.
6354
635594
6356
6357It could possibly, potentially, on
6358
6359what -- depending on what the inspector general concluded at the end
6360of his investigation.
6361So during the pendency of that investigation, I made the decision
6362that Peter should not be involved in the work of the -Mr. Raskin.
6363
6364And finally, did he in any way contaminate the entire
6365
6366investigation with bias because of those private texts that he sent
6367to his -Mr. McCabe.
6368
6369Not in any way that I am aware of, sir.
6370
6371Mr. Raskin.
6372
6373Thank you very much.
6374
6375I turn it over to Mr. Cicilline.
6376Mr. Cicilline.
6377
6378I want to begin, Mr. McCabe, by thanking you not
6379
6380only for your extraordinary service to our country, but for being here
6381today.
6382
6383And I think many of us regret profoundly that you are being
6384
6385subjected to this set of questions and want to just reaffirm our strong
6386confidence in the FBI and the integrity of the agency.
6387I want to just begin, there seems lot of discussion about the
6388memorandum that Director Comey prepared.
6389
6390Based on my reading of it,
6391
6392it was some -- in an ongoing effort to sort of organize his thoughts
6393and begin to think about the conclusion of the investigation.
6394
6395Is that
6396
6397a fair way to characterize it?
6398Mr. McCabe.
6399
6400I think it is.
6401
6402Mr. Cicilline.
6403
6404And that is not -- that idea of sort of beginning
6405
6406to write down your thoughts as a way to help organize, both organize
6407the evidence you've already collected, determine whether or not there's
6408COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
6409
641095
6411
6412COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
6413
6414holes in the evidence that you need to address, or if you haven't sort
6415of thought things through in their full context, it's not an unusual
6416exercise for an investigator, is it?
6417Mr. McCabe.
6418
6419No.
6420
6421And, in fact, it's a fairly common exercise for
6422
6423a prosecutor, which Director Comey is a prosecutor by trade, not an
6424investigator.
6425
6426And typically they will draft what's known as a
6427
6428prosecution memo.
6429Mr. Cicilline.
6430
6431And sometimes that prosecution memo is generated
6432
6433and then shared with others for their kind of reaction to it, for them
6434to identify things they think are well done in it or questions they
6435have.
6436
6437Is that -Mr. McCabe.
6438
6439I would assume so, yes.
6440
6441Mr. Cicilline.
6442
6443Okay.
6444
6445And there's -- in fact, that kind of
6446
6447process of being thoughtful and deliberative and beginning to think
6448about how you would organize your thoughts coming as you're approaching
6449the end of an investigation is something I would expect that you would
6450encourage investigators to do.
6451Mr. McCabe.
6452
6453Yes, sir.
6454
6455Mr. Cicilline.
6456Mr. McCabe.
6457a case.
6458
6459And why is that?
6460
6461I expect my investigators to know where they are in
6462
6463I receive updates on investigations all the time, hundreds
6464
6465of different investigations.
6466
6467And in those investigations, the
6468
6469investigators and their supervisors tell me, What do we have?
6470do we think we are?
6471Mr. Cicilline.
6472
6473What do we have so far?
6474Okay.
6475
6476Where
6477
6478And where are we going?
6479
6480So this excitement from some of my
6481
6482COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
6483
648496
6485
6486COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
6487
6488Republican colleagues about the fact that this kind of outline of his
6489thinking was done in May and a final decision wasn't articulated until
6490July, do you attach any significance to that other than a cause for
6491some excitement from some political partisans?
6492Mr. McCabe.
6493
6494I don't want to speculate on others' excitement.
6495
6496Mr. Cicilline.
6497
6498I'm sorry.
6499
6500I've done it.
6501
6502I'll withdraw that
6503
6504question.
6505Mr. McCabe.
6506
6507Yes, sir.
6508
6509Mr. Cicilline.
6510
6511Not fair.
6512
6513Mr. McCabe, was there any effort at the FBI to stop Donald Trump
6514from being elected President of the United States?
6515Mr. McCabe.
6516
6517No, sir.
6518
6519Mr. Cicilline.
6520
6521Is there any effort at the FBI currently to launch
6522
6523a coup against the President of the United States?
6524Mr. McCabe.
6525
6526No, sir.
6527
6528Mr. Cicilline.
6529
6530And do you agree with the intelligence
6531
6532community's assessment of Russia's interference in the 2016 election?
6533Mr. McCabe.
6534
6535I do.
6536
6537Chairman Goodlatte.
6538
6539I want to caution against getting too far
6540
6541into this issue of -Mr. Cicilline.
6542
6543Yeah.
6544
6545And one final question -- let me first yield to Mr. Raskin.
6546Mr. Raskin.
6547
6548You've come under attack in a way that you've
6549
6550described as having devastating consequences for you and your family.
6551Are you allowed publicly to respond to that under the rules of
6552COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
6553
6554COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
6555
655697
6557
6558the FBI?
6559Mr. McCabe.
6560
6561No, sir.
6562
6563Mr. Raskin.
6564
6565So you can't have a press conference to say that
6566
6567there are a bunch of falsehoods that are being uttered about you or
6568your family.
6569Mr. McCabe.
6570
6571That's not how we do our business, sir.
6572
6573Mr. Krishnamoorthi.
6574
6575So are there a bunch of falsehoods being
6576
6577uttered about you?
6578Mr. McCabe.
6579
6580Yes, sir.
6581
6582Mr. Krishnamoorthi.
6583Mr. Cicilline.
6584
6585I thought so.
6586
6587Could you speak, Mr. McCabe, a little bit more
6588
6589about that.
6590We are seeing -- we've seen it in this committee, we've seen it
6591on television -- what appears to be an intentional campaign to
6592undermine the work of the FBI, the professionalism of the men and women
6593who risk their lives to keep our country safe, and even the Department
6594of Justice.
6595Would you talk a little bit about what the impact of that is on
6596the agency and the danger you think it poses -- if you think it poses
6597any danger -- to the rule of law in this country?
6598Mr. McCabe.
6599
6600You've asked quite a lot there.
6601
6602First, as I have said before, the men and women of the FBI remain
6603committed to the most righteous mission on earth, and that is protecting
6604Americans wherever they are, in whatever they do, and upholding the
6605Constitution.
6606COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
6607
6608COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
6609
661098
6611
6612I have no doubt that the men and women of the FBI will remain
6613committed to and continue to execute that mission in an effective and
6614professional and independent way.
6615So that's what we do.
6616
6617That's our job.
6618
6619No matter what anyone says
6620
6621or how -- what directions the winds blow around us, we will stay focused
6622on that mission and continue doing that job.
6623Mr. Krishnamoorthi.
6624
6625How important is morale of the FBI to its
6626
6627effectiveness in -- as an organization?
6628Mr. McCabe.
6629
6630Morale is important everywhere.
6631
6632Mr. Krishnamoorthi.
6633
6634And how have the recent charges against you
6635
6636and the FBI affected morale?
6637Mr. McCabe.
6638attention.
6639
6640FBI employees don't like to be the center of
6641
6642FBI employees don't like it when they see themselves, their
6643
6644colleagues, or their organization discussed in inflammatory or
6645controversial ways about anything -- about the Clinton case, about any
6646of the allegations that are currently making their way through the
6647media.
6648So that is a -- can be a distracting and disruptive thing.
6649
6650But
6651
6652nevertheless, because of their dedication and their commitment to what
6653we do, they stay focused on the job we have to get done.
6654Mr. Krishnamoorthi.
6655
6656Do the allegations against you and the FBI
6657
6658enhance the FBI's ability and effectiveness as an organization?
6659Mr. McCabe.
6660
6661That's a hard question for me to answer, sir.
6662
6663We will get this job done.
6664
6665As I said to the Senate Intelligence
6666
6667Committee months ago, nothing will stop the men and women of the FBI
6668COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
6669
667099
6671
6672COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
6673
6674from doing the right thing.
6675
6676That applies to me as much as it does to
6677
6678all of my 36,500 colleagues.
6679Mr. Johnson of Georgia.
6680
6681Did Director Comey have authority from
6682
6683DOJ to conduct his July 5th press conference and announce the findings
6684of the FBI investigation?
6685Mr. McCabe.
6686
6687He did not.
6688
6689Mr. Johnson of Georgia.
6690Mr. McCabe.
6691
6692Why was that?
6693
6694Director Comey made the decision to make that
6695
6696statement without clearing it with the Department of Justice first.
6697Mr. Krishnamoorthi.
6698
6699And that was because they were politically
6700
6701affiliated with Hillary Clinton, correct?
6702Mr. McCabe.
6703
6704Director Comey did not want anyone to be able to say
6705
6706that the Department in any way affected how we felt about the case and
6707how we assessed the case.
6708
6709He very much wanted that statement to stand
6710
6711as the FBI's perspective on what we did and what we learned.
6712
6713And that
6714
6715would, of course, be the foundation of our recommendation to the
6716Department of Justice.
6717Mr. Raskin.
6718
6719There was a moment, Mr. McCabe, when the FBI was
6720
6721truly politicized under J. Edgar Hoover, when there were attempts to
6722disrupt the civil rights movement, Dr. King, the COINTEL program.
6723What was learned from that period of its history that informs
6724what's taking place today?
6725Mr. McCabe.
6726
6727Well, I'll just say that we, like every
6728
6729organization, have made mistakes.
6730
6731And I'd like to think -- I do
6732
6733believe that we've learned from those mistakes.
6734COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
6735
6736100
6737
6738COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
6739
6740We understand the importance of maintaining our independence from
6741the political process.
6742
6743We only have one political position in the
6744
6745entire organization, and that is the Director.
6746
6747And that is just one
6748
6749kind of overt representation of the importance of maintaining an
6750organization of independent professionals.
6751Mr. Cicilline.
6752
6753Can I follow up?
6754
6755Chairman Goodlatte.
6756recess for lunch.
6757
6758One final question?
6759
6760Thirty minutes are up.
6761
6762We're going to
6763
6764We'll return after the series of votes, which is
6765
6766coming up fairly soon.
6767[Recess.]
6768
6769COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
6770
6771COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
6772
6773101
6774
6775[2:42 p.m.]
6776Chairman Gowdy.
6777
6778Welcome back, Deputy Director McCabe.
6779
6780When you and I were last talking, my notes reflect -- I have the
6781words "challenges" and "frustrations."
6782get into, perhaps, some of those.
6783
6784And I think we had begun to
6785
6786And I think there was an
6787
6788acknowledgment by you that there are challenges and frustrations in
6789every investigation, particularly between prosecutors and agents.
6790There's nothing unusual about that.
6791Mr. McCabe.
6792
6793That's correct.
6794
6795Chairman Gowdy.
6796
6797But I want to flesh out, if we can, whether or
6798
6799not there were any unique challenges with respect to this
6800investigation.
6801In May of 2015, where would you have been within the Bureau?
6802Mr. McCabe.
6803
6804May of 2015, I was ADIC of the Washington field
6805
6806office.
6807Chairman Gowdy.
6808Mr. McCabe.
6809
6810Would you --
6811
6812I'm sorry.
6813
6814Assistant director in charge of the
6815
6816Washington field office.
6817Chairman Gowdy.
6818
6819All right.
6820
6821If there were a meeting called by
6822
6823State Department Under Secretary Patrick Kennedy with White House
6824Counsel, CIA, FBI, DOD, ODNI, and NSC regarding the release of Secretary
6825Clinton's emails, would you have been part of that meeting?
6826Mr. McCabe.
6827
6828No, sir.
6829
6830Chairman Gowdy.
6831
6832Were you ever asked by Under Secretary Kennedy
6833
6834that the FBI classification determination be changed?
6835COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
6836
6837102
6838
6839COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
6840
6841Mr. McCabe.
6842
6843I was not, no.
6844
6845Chairman Gowdy.
6846Mr. McCabe.
6847
6848Do you know whether anyone else was?
6849
6850I do not.
6851
6852Chairman Gowdy.
6853Mr. McCabe.
6854
6855Who is
6856
6857?
6858is a -- now a former FBI agent.
6859
6860At
6861
6862that time, in May of 2015, he was still with the Bureau.
6863Chairman Gowdy.
6864
6865Do you have any knowledge of whether, in May or
6866
6867June of 2015, Under Secretary Kennedy called
6868to ask for assistance in changing the classification of email?
6869Mr. McCabe.
6870
6871I learned of an exchange.
6872
6873I don't know where
6874
6875was at the time or whether it was in person or a phone
6876call.
6877
6878But I learned about an exchange they had had about that much
6879
6880later.
6881
6882I did not know about it at the time.
6883
6884Chairman Gowdy.
6885Mr. McCabe.
6886
6887What did you learn about it?
6888
6889So that came to my attention, I think, after the case
6890
6891was -- had been closed and we were going through documents that would
6892be turned over in the FOIA process.
6893
6894And somebody brought to my
6895
6896attention that there was a 302 involving -- I'm not sure even at this
6897point who the 302 -- I don't know who was interviewed in the 302, but
6898the 302 dealt with an issue that had occurred between Mr. Kelly and
6899.
6900Chairman Gowdy.
6901
6902I would defer to your expertise on
6903
6904classification and who determines classification.
6905than my own.
6906
6907It would be greater
6908
6909But why would the State Department ask the FBI to change
6910
6911a classification?
6912
6913Would that be a document that the FBI had
6914COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
6915
6916103
6917
6918COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
6919
6920classified?
6921Mr. McCabe.
6922asking.
6923
6924I'm not going to speculate as to what they were
6925
6926My understanding of the process is that the owner of the
6927
6928information is responsible for its classification.
6929
6930And potential
6931
6932declassification or what happens to that, that decision always comes
6933back to the original classifier, which would be the owner of that
6934information.
6935
6936So if it was FBI information, it would be our
6937
6938responsibility.
6939Chairman Gowdy.
6940
6941In any of your capacities with the Bureau, did
6942
6943you ever ask another agency to change a classification?
6944Mr. McCabe.
6945
6946No, sir, I have not.
6947
6948Chairman Gowdy.
6949
6950In any of your capacities at the FBI, were you
6951
6952ever asked by someone to change a classification?
6953Mr. McCabe.
6954
6955I have not been asked to change a classification.
6956
6957Chairman Gowdy.
6958Mr. McCabe.
6959
6960Who is Michael Steinbach?
6961
6962Michael Steinbach is a former FBI agent.
6963
6964Before he
6965
6966retired, he was serving as the executive assistant director of the
6967National Security Branch.
6968Mr. Gowdy.
6969
6970Were you aware, in May of 2015, that Under Secretary
6971
6972Patrick Kennedy called Michael Steinbach and asked one more time that
6973the classification be changed?
6974Mr. McCabe.
6975
6976I was not aware of that in May of 2015.
6977
6978Chairman Gowdy.
6979Mr. McCabe.
6980
6981Were you subsequently made aware of it.
6982
6983I think the -- this entire situation came to my
6984
6985attention only in the context of being notified that a 302 relative
6986COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
6987
6988104
6989
6990COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
6991
6992to these exchanges was going to be released in the FOIA process.
6993
6994So
6995
6996it was much -- so that would have been the end of 2016 likely.
6997Chairman Gowdy.
6998
6999At some point, did you recuse yourself from the
7000
7001investigation in Secretary Clinton's email, or were you recused.
7002Mr. McCabe.
7003
7004I recused myself from the investigation, that's
7005
7006correct, the first week of November of 2016.
7007Chairman Gowdy.
7008
7009Would these 302s have been brought to your
7010
7011attention before or after that.
7012Mr. McCabe.
7013
7014Likely before.
7015
7016Chairman Gowdy.
7017
7018Director Comey made reference to a conversation
7019
7020he had with then Attorney General Lynch where he was asked to refer
7021to something as a matter as opposed to an investigation.
7022
7023Are you
7024
7025familiar with that testimony.
7026Mr. McCabe.
7027
7028Yes, I'm generally familiar with that testimony.
7029
7030And Director Comey related that to me sometime after that -- that
7031exchange occurred.
7032Chairman Gowdy.
7033Mr. McCabe.
7034
7035Were you present for that conversation.
7036
7037I was not.
7038
7039Chairman Gowdy.
7040
7041How soon after the conversation was it relayed
7042
7043to you.
7044Mr. McCabe.
7045took place.
7046
7047I don't know, because I don't know when that actually
7048
7049My belief is that it was somehow -- it was an issue that
7050
7051they discussed around the time that they were considering the public
7052acknowledgment of the case.
7053Chairman Gowdy.
7054
7055And when was the case publicly acknowledged.
7056COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
7057
7058105
7059
7060COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
7061
7062Mr. McCabe.
7063
7064I can't tell you for sure, sir.
7065
7066That happened
7067
7068before I came back to headquarters and certainly before I started
7069working on the case.
7070Chairman Gowdy.
7071
7072The decision to publicly acknowledge or not
7073
7074publicly acknowledge an investigation, is that FBI policy or DOJ
7075policy.
7076Mr. McCabe.
7077
7078There is both FBI policy and DOJ policy that would
7079
7080impact that decision.
7081Chairman Gowdy.
7082
7083As a Bureau agent, would you have to secure the
7084
7085permission of Main Justice before you made an investigation public.
7086Mr. McCabe.
7087
7088Yes.
7089
7090Chairman Gowdy.
7091
7092In this case, who at Main Justice did Director
7093
7094Comey talk to before making the existence in the investigation public.
7095Mr. McCabe.
7096
7097It is my understanding that he discussed the issue
7098
7099with the Attorney General.
7100Chairman Gowdy.
7101
7102Is it your understanding that that was about the
7103
7104same time he was asked to refer to it as a matter and not an
7105investigation.
7106Mr. McCabe.
7107
7108That's my belief, yes.
7109
7110Chairman Gowdy.
7111
7112Did he say anything about the conversation he
7113
7114had with Attorney General Lynch, were they in one accord that it should
7115be made publicly available.
7116Mr. McCabe.
7117
7118I'm sorry?
7119
7120Chairman Gowdy.
7121accord?
7122
7123Existence of the investigation, were they in one
7124
7125Did they agree.
7126COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
7127
7128106
7129
7130COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
7131
7132Mr. McCabe.
7133
7134I don't know.
7135
7136We didn't discuss that specifically.
7137
7138Director Comey never mentioned to me that he disagreed with that aspect
7139of the decision.
7140Chairman Gowdy.
7141
7142What did he say, with as much particularity as
7143
7144you can recall, about the conversation with Attorney General Lynch.
7145Mr. McCabe.
7146
7147He just noted that he thought it was peculiar that
7148
7149she was, you know, insistent that we not refer to it as an investigation
7150but, rather, refer to it as a matter.
7151Chairman Gowdy.
7152me.
7153
7154If I have already asked you this today, forgive
7155
7156I can't remember what I asked you 2 days ago and what I asked you
7157
7158today.
7159
7160So, if it is today, just correct me.
7161
7162Does the FBI have a
7163
7164designation as a matter.
7165Mr. McCabe.
7166
7167No, sir.
7168
7169Chairman Gowdy.
7170
7171What are the different designations that the
7172
7173Bureau uses.
7174Mr. McCabe.
7175
7176So we have full field investigations, preliminary
7177
7178investigations, and then we have a range of assessments that are lower
7179level, a lesser degree of investigative activity that we can -- is
7180authorized at the assessment level.
7181Chairman Gowdy.
7182
7183So there is no designation of, quote, a "matter"
7184
7185within the Bureau lexicon.
7186Mr. McCabe.
7187
7188No, sir.
7189
7190We are the Federal Bureau of
7191
7192Investigations.
7193Chairman Gowdy.
7194
7195Do you know whether Director Comey memorialized
7196
7197his conversation with Attorney General Lynch in any way, other than
7198COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
7199
7200107
7201
7202COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
7203
7204sharing it with you.
7205Mr. McCabe.
7206
7207I'm not aware of any other way that he memorialized
7208
7209it.
7210Chairman Gowdy.
7211
7212And to the best of your recollection
7213
7214what -- orient me from a time standpoint.
7215
7216You became the deputy
7217
7218director in February of 2016.
7219Mr. McCabe.
7220
7221That's correct.
7222
7223Chairman Gowdy.
7224
7225The press conference Director Comey had was on
7226
7227July the 5th.
7228Mr. McCabe.
7229
7230Yes, sir.
7231
7232Chairman Gowdy.
7233Mr. McCabe.
7234
7235The tarmac incident was in late June of 2016.
7236
7237Yeah, I think maybe the Thursday before.
7238
7239If the
7240
7241announcement was on a Tuesday, I think the tarmac was the Thursday
7242before the end of that week previous.
7243Chairman Gowdy.
7244
7245To the best of your recollection, when did this
7246
7247conversation between Director Comey and Attorney General Lynch take
7248place.
7249Mr. McCabe.
7250
7251About the investigation?
7252
7253Chairman Gowdy.
7254Mr. McCabe.
7255conversation.
7256later.
7257
7258Versus matter.
7259
7260I don't know, sir.
7261
7262I wasn't there for the
7263
7264I only heard what Director Comey related to me some time
7265
7266My assumption is that that conversation took place before I
7267
7268was involved in the case.
7269Chairman Gowdy.
7270
7271So it was your assumption that it predated
7272
7273February.
7274COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
7275
7276108
7277
7278COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
7279
7280Mr. McCabe.
7281
7282That is my assumption today, yes.
7283
7284Chairman Gowdy.
7285Mr. McCabe.
7286
7287Okay.
7288
7289I think the case had been made public before I was
7290
7291ever involved in it.
7292Chairman Gowdy.
7293
7294If I understood your testimony correctly, one
7295
7296of the reasons this case may have been a little peculiar was the lack
7297of involvement of the Attorney General and the Deputy Attorney General.
7298Mr. McCabe.
7299
7300Yes, sir.
7301
7302Chairman Gowdy.
7303
7304So this is at least one interaction between the
7305
7306Director of the FBI and the Attorney General.
7307
7308Do you know what the
7309
7310calls or the impetus for that interaction was, given what you said
7311earlier that there was an uncharacteristically low level of
7312interaction?
7313
7314Do you know why he went to talk to her.
7315
7316Mr. McCabe.
7317
7318Why he went to talk to her about --
7319
7320Chairman Gowdy.
7321Mr. McCabe.
7322
7323Whatever they went to talk about.
7324
7325That led to the conversation about call it a matter,
7326
7327not an investigation?
7328
7329I do not know.
7330
7331My assumption is that that
7332
7333exchange took place in a conversation that they had regarding the
7334process or the decision to make a public acknowledgment of the case.
7335It would have -- would have happened contemporaneous with that decision
7336and that public acknowledgment.
7337Chairman Gowdy.
7338
7339If the Attorney General disagreed with a
7340
7341decision to make the existence of an investigation public does the
7342Director of the FBI have the power to do so anyway.
7343Mr. McCabe.
7344
7345No, I believe the Attorney General would overrule
7346COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
7347
7348109
7349
7350COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
7351
7352the Director in that case.
7353Chairman Gowdy.
7354
7355So, to the extent that the existence of the
7356
7357investigation or matter was made public, we can assume from that that
7358Attorney General Lynch did not object to it.
7359Mr. McCabe.
7360
7361That's my assumption.
7362
7363Chairman Gowdy.
7364
7365All right.
7366
7367Did you ever have any -- if these
7368
7369were not your words, correct me, I wrote down "challenges,"
7370"frustrations," and I wrote down the word "friction."
7371
7372Did you ever
7373
7374have any challenges, frustration, or friction with respect to
7375interviewing the witnesses you wanted to interview.
7376Mr. McCabe.
7377to interview.
7378
7379We ultimately interviewed the witnesses we wanted
7380
7381During the course of that part of the investigation
7382
7383there were periodically issues about when those interviews would take
7384place, about who would attend those interviews.
7385
7386And those sorts of
7387
7388issues were frequently the cause of maybe the subjects of disagreements
7389between us at the FBI and our colleagues at the Department.
7390Chairman Gowdy.
7391Mr. McCabe.
7392
7393For those --
7394
7395And I use those only as two examples.
7396
7397There may
7398
7399have been other friction points, as well.
7400Chairman Gowdy.
7401
7402For those who don't know, you can -- how does
7403
7404the Bureau ask people to sit or stand for an interview?
7405
7406What is the
7407
7408process by which you seek to talk to someone.
7409Mr. McCabe.
7410
7411Well, we can speak to people in the course of an
7412
7413investigation, and we can ask them if they'll talk to us, and many do.
7414If people aren't willing to talk to us, then we can compel their
7415COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
7416
7417110
7418
7419COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
7420
7421participation in that process we get a subpoena.
7422Chairman Gowdy.
7423Mr. McCabe.
7424
7425Would that be a grand jury subpoena.
7426
7427That's right.
7428
7429Chairman Gowdy.
7430
7431And that requires the approval of Main Justice
7432
7433lawyers, or can the Bureau do that -- Bureau agents do that themselves.
7434Mr. McCabe.
7435
7436No, the Bureau cannot do that.
7437
7438It requires an
7439
7440attorney from the Department of Justice, which is typically an
7441Assistant U.S. Attorney, as happens most often in the many cases we
7442work out of our field offices.
7443
7444In this case, it was lawyers at the
7445
7446Department of Justice.
7447Chairman Gowdy.
7448
7449When witnesses appear before the grand jury, can
7450
7451counsel appear alongside them.
7452Mr. McCabe.
7453
7454I think they can, right?
7455
7456Chairman Gowdy.
7457
7458Yeah -- no.
7459
7460At least one of your lawyers did not like that
7461
7462question, so you might want to consult with them.
7463Mr. McCabe.
7464I gave one at all.
7465
7466Either they don't like my response or the fact that
7467It is my recollection from my appearances in front
7468
7469of the grand jury, which were many years ago, that witnesses were
7470allowed to bring attorneys to the grand jury but that they would not
7471actually go inside.
7472Chairman Gowdy.
7473
7474In your experience with a grand jury
7475
7476investigation, did multiple witnesses appear simultaneously before the
7477grand jury.
7478Mr. McCabe.
7479
7480No, sir.
7481
7482Chairman Gowdy.
7483
7484In your experience with the grand jury
7485COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
7486
7487111
7488
7489COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
7490
7491investigations, were witnesses able to designate family or friends to
7492attend the grand jury proceeding.
7493Mr. McCabe.
7494
7495No, sir.
7496
7497Chairman Gowdy.
7498
7499Is it your recollection that it is the witness,
7500
7501it is a prosecutor from the United States Attorney's Office or Main
7502Justice, and it is the members of the grand jury.
7503Mr. McCabe.
7504
7505That's right.
7506
7507Chairman Gowdy.
7508Mr. McCabe.
7509
7510Maybe a court reporter.
7511
7512Yes, sir.
7513
7514Chairman Gowdy.
7515
7516So, if you had the option of compelling
7517
7518witnesses to come, first option, I get it, voluntary interview.
7519
7520You
7521
7522always have the option of at least trying to compel someone to come.
7523In this case, it appears as if there was a lot of negotiation about
7524the parameters around these, quote, "voluntary interviews."
7525
7526Was that
7527
7528normal course for Bureau investigations or was this different.
7529Mr. McCabe.
7530investigations.
7531one.
7532
7533I don't know that I can compare it to normal Bureau
7534I'm not sure what those are.
7535
7536This certainly was not
7537
7538This was the approach and the strategy that the Department of
7539
7540Justice chose to pursue in this case.
7541Chairman Gowdy.
7542
7543And did the Bureau agents agree with that
7544
7545approach.
7546Mr. McCabe.
7547
7548Many times we did not.
7549
7550Chairman Gowdy.
7551those times?
7552
7553And that's what I'm getting at is, when were
7554
7555When were the times when you thought, why are we doing
7556
7557this as opposed to using a compulsory piece of paper to secure the
7558COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
7559
7560COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
7561
7562112
7563
7564testimony.
7565Mr. McCabe.
7566
7567Sir, the best -- really the only example I can give
7568
7569you in detail was the issue that involved me personally, which was
7570access to the laptops towards the conclusion of the investigation.
7571
7572I
7573
7574had a personal role in that so I can walk you through what my
7575observations were.
7576You would be better served talking to witnesses who were more
7577closely involved in the day-to-day staffing of those interviews and
7578the scheduling of those interviews.
7579
7580They could provide to you many
7581
7582other examples, I'm sure, but I was not day-to-day involved in that
7583kind of back and forth over the scheduling of interviews.
7584Chairman Gowdy.
7585Mr. McCabe.
7586
7587All right.
7588
7589Okay.
7590
7591Tell me about the one you can.
7592
7593So we had made the decision that we -- it was
7594
7595essential to us to at least attempt to exploit, to the best of our
7596ability, whatever emails or remnants of emails that might be left on
7597the laptops that were used initially to sort Secretary Clinton's email,
7598which I think took place in response to maybe one of the initial
7599congressional requests for documents early on, prior to my involvement
7600in the case.
7601We embarked upon a long and somewhat torturous process of
7602negotiating with the defense attorneys involved access to those
7603laptops.
7604
7605There were several points during that ongoing negotiation
7606
7607that took place over the course of a few weeks in which we wanted to
7608move forward more quickly and just serve subpoenas and possibly search
7609warrants on the defendants to gain access to those computers.
7610COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
7611
7612113
7613
7614COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
7615
7616The Department of Justice felt like we would -- if we went down
7617that course -- well, I won't try to suppose their reasoning.
7618
7619They
7620
7621thought it was better that we pursue those things through consent of -Chairman Gowdy.
7622Mr. McCabe.
7623
7624Because of attorney/client privilege issues.
7625
7626There were a lot of issues complicating our access
7627
7628to those computers.
7629
7630They felt -- it is my belief that the Department
7631
7632felt if we pursued compulsory process, we would spend a lot of time
7633litigating the process issues, rather than -- and they thought we could
7634more quickly get access to the computers through negotiating their,
7635you know, consent -- turning them over through consent.
7636Chairman Gowdy.
7637
7638Was there any disagreement between the agents
7639
7640and the prosecutors as to whether or not probable cause existed for
7641you to access those computers.
7642Mr. McCabe.
7643
7644We felt that we had probable cause.
7645
7646for the Department.
7647
7648I can't speak
7649
7650I'm not aware of a difference of opinion on that,
7651
7652but -Chairman Gowdy.
7653Mr. McCabe.
7654
7655Whose computers were they.
7656
7657This was the computers used by Heather Samuelson.
7658
7659Do I have that correct?
7660Chairman Gowdy.
7661Mr. McCabe.
7662
7663And Heather Mills.
7664
7665Cheryl Mills.
7666
7667I'm sorry, Cheryl Mills, during the sorting process.
7668
7669Chairman Gowdy.
7670
7671To the best of your recollection, is that the
7672
7673same Cheryl Mills who served as chief of staff for Secretary Clinton
7674when she was at the State Department.
7675Mr. McCabe.
7676
7677To the best of my recollection it is.
7678COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
7679
7680114
7681
7682COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
7683
7684Chairman Gowdy.
7685
7686Were you able eventually to interview everyone
7687
7688you wanted to interview.
7689Mr. McCabe.
7690
7691Yes, sir.
7692
7693Chairman Gowdy.
7694Mr. McCabe.
7695
7696You have been a Bureau agent for how long.
7697
7698A little over 21 years.
7699
7700Chairman Gowdy.
7701witness interviews?
7702
7703When you were starting out, did you conduct
7704Did you interview bank tellers?
7705
7706Did you do all
7707
7708that when you were starting off.
7709Mr. McCabe.
7710
7711Yes.
7712
7713Chairman Gowdy.
7714
7715Was it your practice to interview people in
7716
7717groups or interview people individually.
7718Mr. McCabe.
7719
7720It is typical you interview people individually.
7721
7722Chairman Gowdy.
7723Mr. McCabe.
7724
7725Why is that.
7726
7727Keep witnesses from hearing each other's version of
7728
7729events, things of that nature, keep people focused.
7730Chairman Gowdy.
7731
7732It could be suggestive if you interviewed all
7733
7734the witnesses to a bank robbery at the same time.
7735
7736It might, might
7737
7738prompt an objection from defense counsel at some point.
7739
7740Has it been
7741
7742your experience that the Bureau allows fact witnesses -- other fact
7743witnesses to sit in on witness interviews.
7744Mr. McCabe.
7745
7746That's not the typical case, sir.
7747
7748I'm sure it
7749
7750happens here and there, but it is not common.
7751Chairman Gowdy.
7752Mr. McCabe.
7753
7754How many times did it happen in your career.
7755
7756I couldn't give you an answer to that.
7757
7758Chairman Gowdy.
7759
7760You could if it were zero.
7761COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
7762
7763Can you think of a
7764
7765115
7766
7767COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
7768
7769time other than this investigation where fact witnesses -Mr. McCabe.
7770
7771I have done a lot of interviews, sir.
7772
7773I can't sit
7774
7775here and tell you that, in every single one of them, there wasn't a
7776person in or near the interview who couldn't potentially have become
7777a fact witness later.
7778
7779I would like to say zero, but I can't confidently
7780
7781give you that number today.
7782Chairman Gowdy.
7783
7784Why would you interview someone in the presence
7785
7786of a fact witness if you had an alternative.
7787Mr. McCabe.
7788
7789I think if you had an alternative, you wouldn't.
7790
7791Chairman Gowdy.
7792
7793Well, you always have the grand jury.
7794
7795That's
7796
7797an alternative, right.
7798Mr. McCabe.
7799
7800It can be, yes.
7801
7802Chairman Gowdy.
7803Mr. McCabe.
7804
7805It might be the only alternative.
7806
7807It may not be if you're interviewing a witness who
7808
7809is not subject to the jurisdiction of the grand jury, then that's
7810not -- in that case, it would not be an option.
7811Chairman Gowdy.
7812
7813I guess what we're trying to understand is
7814
7815whether or not the interviews of the witnesses in this case, whether
7816it's Huma Abedin, whether it is -- did you interview Heather Samuelson.
7817Mr. McCabe.
7818
7819She was interviewed, yes.
7820
7821Chairman Gowdy.
7822
7823I didn't interview her.
7824
7825Secretary Clinton's interview it appears as if
7826
7827Cheryl Mills was present for that interview.
7828Mr. McCabe.
7829
7830I think that's right.
7831
7832Chairman Gowdy.
7833
7834Did you consider Cheryl Mills to also be a fact
7835
7836witness.
7837COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
7838
7839116
7840
7841COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
7842
7843Mr. McCabe.
7844
7845She had been interviewed before as a witness.
7846
7847Chairman Gowdy.
7848
7849What was the thought process in allowing fact
7850
7851witnesses to sit in on another fact witness' interview.
7852Mr. McCabe.
7853
7854I can tell you that we did not control the attendance
7855
7856of attorneys or individuals at those interviews.
7857
7858This was a topic that
7859
7860caused us some frustration, not just in that interview and in others.
7861We had several conversations with the Department over the size and scope
7862and identity of the individuals who would be permitted to attend, but
7863ultimately, these were consensually agreed-to voluntary interviews,
7864and we didn't control who was in the room at the time.
7865Chairman Gowdy.
7866
7867Well, I want to try to be as open-minded as I
7868
7869can in trying to guess what the Department of Justice might gain from
7870having multiple fact witnesses in a single interview.
7871there are negotiations back and forth.
7872
7873So I understand
7874
7875What would either Main Justice
7876
7877or the Bureau gain from having multiple fact witnesses in another fact
7878witness' interview.
7879Mr. McCabe.
7880
7881Well, I can't speak for what the Department of
7882
7883Justice thought about it or what they would gain, but from the FBI's
7884perspective, it was not something that we would have sought out.
7885Chairman Gowdy.
7886
7887Did you voice your disagreement with the
7888
7889decision.
7890Mr. McCabe.
7891
7892I don't remember taking a personal role in whether
7893
7894or not Ms. Mills attended the interview.
7895
7896I just know that our team
7897
7898was engaged in a fairly heated back and forth with folks at the
7899Department over who would attend interviews generally, but I don't
7900COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
7901
7902COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
7903
7904117
7905
7906remember weighing in on the subject of Ms. Mills.
7907Chairman Gowdy.
7908
7909Who in particular on your team do you remember
7910
7911being the most animated.
7912Mr. McCabe.
7913
7914I remember Pete Strzok being animated about it and
7915
7916possibly Bill Priestap.
7917
7918They would have been much more involved in
7919
7920the day-to-day issue than I would have been.
7921Chairman Gowdy.
7922
7923Were you able to interview the witnesses in the
7924
7925order in which you wanted to interview them.
7926Mr. McCabe.
7927
7928I don't remember us having a problem with the order
7929
7930that the interviews were conducted.
7931Chairman Gowdy.
7932
7933Were you able to access all of the information
7934
7935you felt you needed to be able to conduct the investigation.
7936Mr. McCabe.
7937
7938We were.
7939
7940Chairman Gowdy.
7941
7942Were you part of any decisions on whether or not
7943
7944to grant immunity to witnesses.
7945Mr. McCabe.
7946
7947I was not.
7948
7949Chairman Gowdy.
7950
7951Did your team bring any of those concerns to you,
7952
7953make you aware of them.
7954Mr. McCabe.
7955
7956They did not.
7957
7958Chairman Gowdy.
7959
7960They did not.
7961
7962Did you discover any evidence that had been
7963
7964spoliated, deleted, whether wittingly or unwittingly during the course
7965of your investigation.
7966Mr. McCabe.
7967
7968We did.
7969
7970Chairman Gowdy.
7971
7972And what evidence was that, and how were you able
7973
7974to determine that it had been deleted.
7975COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
7976
7977118
7978
7979COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
7980
7981Mr. McCabe.
7982
7983We spent a great deal of time and effort trying to
7984
7985reconstruct emails that would previously have been held on different
7986devices and servers, trying to reconstruct emails from the remnants
7987of those emails and the part of the servers that they referred to as
7988slack space, so this was a common theme in the investigation.
7989
7990I can't
7991
7992sit here and tell you exactly which device at which time, but there
7993are better witnesses to provide that information to you.
7994Chairman Gowdy.
7995Mr. McCabe.
7996
7997I want to go back to before July 5th.
7998
7999Okay.
8000
8001Chairman Gowdy.
8002
8003All right.
8004
8005So we know when the press conference
8006
8007was held, and we have at least some idea from the emails as to when
8008there was a discussion of what to be said.
8009on.
8010
8011We will litigate that later
8012
8013We'll have more conversations, but that's not where I'm headed
8014
8015with this.
8016
8017The tarmac was in late June.
8018
8019Mr. McCabe.
8020
8021Yes.
8022
8023Chairman Gowdy.
8024
8025The conversation with Attorney General Lynch
8026
8027may have predated you in February.
8028Mr. McCabe.
8029
8030Yes.
8031
8032Chairman Gowdy.
8033
8034Were there other reasons, whether you can
8035
8036discuss them in this environment or not, that led Director Comey to
8037make the decision to appropriate the charging decision away from the
8038Department of Justice.
8039Mr. McCabe.
8040
8041Well, first, as I mentioned to you earlier, I don't
8042
8043know that I agree with your use of the term "appropriate the decision."
8044We can -COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
8045
8046119
8047
8048COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
8049
8050Chairman Gowdy.
8051Mr. McCabe.
8052
8053We can argue about that later.
8054
8055Chairman Gowdy.
8056Mr. McCabe.
8057
8058Your objection --
8059
8060Your objection is noted.
8061
8062I know that there were a number of factors that
8063
8064Director Comey was considering as he thought about that decision, some
8065of which we discussed the other evening that I cannot discuss with you
8066here in this setting, others we have talked about a little bit.
8067
8068The
8069
8070different relationship that we had with leadership at the Justice
8071Department or I should say the different way -- the way they were not
8072traditionally involved in the oversight and decisionmaking on this case
8073presented a challenge to us and an acknowledgment on some level of the
8074fact that they were -- you know, the political nature of their positions
8075raised a question about their ability to make decisions on the case,
8076and so that was strange ground for us to be in.
8077There was the exchange between the Director and the Attorney
8078General on not referring to it publicly as an investigation.
8079
8080That's
8081
8082something that the Director factored into his consideration, as well.
8083There was the somewhat infamous exchange between the Attorney General
8084and former President Clinton on the tarmac in Phoenix, so there were
8085a number of things that caused him to doubt the ability or credibility
8086of the Justice Department in presenting the results of the
8087investigation.
8088Chairman Gowdy.
8089
8090Does -- is there or has there ever been a
8091
8092contemporaneous collection of that conversation on the tarmac.
8093Mr. McCabe.
8094
8095A contemporaneous collection.
8096COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
8097
8098120
8099
8100COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
8101
8102Chairman Gowdy.
8103
8104Was there ever a transcript, an audio, anything
8105
8106other than the witnesses' memories that you have ever had access to
8107or heard about that captured the essence of that tarmac conversation.
8108Mr. McCabe.
8109
8110No, sir, not to my knowledge.
8111
8112Chairman Gowdy.
8113
8114So the folklore on the internet that there is
8115
8116a transcript, there is an audio recording of that, you're not familiar
8117with it.
8118Mr. McCabe.
8119
8120Absolutely not.
8121
8122Chairman Gowdy.
8123Mr. McCabe.
8124
8125Would you be familiar with it.
8126
8127I -- if there were a recording made under FBI
8128
8129authorities, it is possible, possibly even likely that I would be aware
8130of it, but I can't sit here and speculate as to how a recording might
8131have been made.
8132
8133I mean, I'm not aware of a recording having been made,
8134
8135so I really can't speculate beyond that.
8136Chairman Gowdy.
8137
8138Well, part of what we have to do is debunk myths,
8139
8140too.
8141Mr. McCabe.
8142
8143Yes, sir.
8144
8145Chairman Gowdy.
8146
8147That's why I'm asking you.
8148
8149You would be in a
8150
8151unique position maybe to know.
8152Mr. Meadows.
8153
8154Is the AG's -- is the AG's plane vehicle monitored,
8155
8156to your knowledge?
8157Mr. McCabe.
8158
8159Not to my knowledge, no, sir.
8160
8161Chairman Gowdy.
8162Ms. Jayapal.
8163session.
8164
8165Thirty minutes is up.
8166
8167Thank you for sticking with us.
8168
8169It is a long
8170
8171At the beginning, Mr. Gowdy asked if there was anything
8172COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
8173
8174121
8175
8176COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
8177
8178unusual about the Justice staffing, and I believe that you said that
8179the Attorney General and the Deputy Attorney General made a decision
8180to not be involved in the day-to-day I don't know if it is oversight
8181or notification.
8182Can you just restate what you said, that this was an unusual
8183decision for them to make?
8184Mr. McCabe.
8185
8186Yes.
8187
8188And just to be clear, that decision was made
8189
8190before I came back to headquarters and was involved in the case, so
8191I was informed of it later, I was not present for it.
8192
8193It was an unusual
8194
8195position for us to be in to be investigating a high profile sensitive
8196kind of notable case and to not have the involvement or the oversight
8197of the Attorney General and the Deputy Attorney General.
8198Ms. Jayapal.
8199
8200And why do you think they made that decision?
8201
8202I
8203
8204think you have stated it, but I would like -- there have been a lot
8205of questions so I want to go back and restate for the record.
8206Mr. McCabe.
8207
8208It is my understanding that they wanted to -- because
8209
8210of the political nature of their positions, they didn't want to take
8211a role in the decisionmaking on the case, and they were leaving it to
8212the professionals, the career professionals, in the Department of
8213Justice.
8214Ms. Jayapal.
8215
8216And do you think that that was appropriate action
8217
8218for them to take?
8219Mr. McCabe.
8220
8221Yeah, I don't want to speculate on what they should
8222
8223have done and didn't do, and so I can just tell you what they did do
8224and the impact it had on our case.
8225COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
8226
8227COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
8228
8229Ms. Jayapal.
8230
8231122
8232
8233Earlier I think there was a line of questioning,
8234
8235and you said something about there are a number of things that led Comey
8236to doubt the credibility of the Attorney General or the leadership of
8237the Justice Department in kind of being involved, and I guess what I
8238was trying to get at is, given that they felt that these were political
8239appointments and political positions, that perhaps they were trying
8240to do the thing that they felt would be best for the American people,
8241which is to leave the investigation to the professionals.
8242Do you remember that Attorney General Lynch said that she would
8243accept the recommendations from the FBI and career prosecutors in the
8244Clinton email case?
8245Mr. McCabe.
8246Ms. Jayapal.
8247Mr. McCabe.
8248
8249I do.
8250And did she do that?
8251She did.
8252
8253We -- I don't know if it was the day of
8254
8255or the day after Director Comey's announcement on the 5th, we traveled
8256over to the Department and met with the Attorney General, the Deputy
8257Attorney General, all the attorneys and folks who had been involved
8258in the case.
8259Sorry, I thought I heard a dog.
8260And we basically presented how we thought about it, but most of
8261the -- honestly most of the meeting was the line attorneys who had
8262handled the investigation, presented to the Attorney General their view
8263of the evidence and the law and the recommendation that no charges be
8264pursued.
8265Ms. Jayapal.
8266
8267And she did not in that meeting indicate anything
8268COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
8269
8270123
8271
8272COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
8273
8274that said she was trying to take over those recommendations or interfere
8275in any way?
8276Mr. McCabe.
8277
8278Not at all.
8279
8280Not at all.
8281
8282She accepted the
8283
8284recommendation of the career prosecutors.
8285Ms. Jayapal.
8286
8287I want to go back to some of the early questions
8288
8289that Mr. Cummings had asked you about the FBI.
8290Mr. McCabe.
8291Ms. Jayapal.
8292
8293Okay.
8294And he asked you about the impact of some of the
8295
8296undermining of the FBI and some of the comments that have been made
8297about the FBI, and I actually wanted to read a few of the comments that
8298have been made by Republican members of this committee and just give
8299you a chance to respond:
8300suspected.
8301
8302"The text messages prove what we all
8303
8304High-ranking FBI officials involved in the Clinton
8305
8306investigation were personally invested in the outcome of the election
8307and clearly let their strong political opinions cloud their
8308professional judgement."
8309Do you believe that the FBI's professional judgment in any of the
8310decisions that have been made were clouded by political bias?
8311Mr. McCabe.
8312
8313No, ma'am.
8314
8315In my experience overseeing the case,
8316
8317working with the leadership team involved in the case, I never observed
8318or saw anyone's personal, political, political opinions impact their
8319decisionmaking or their work product.
8320Ms. Jayapal.
8321
8322Thank you.
8323
8324Here's another one:
8325
8326"If you have an
8327
8328individual who actually had a desire to have an outcome in a political
8329race and they decided to use the Department of Justice to investigate
8330COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
8331
8332124
8333
8334COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
8335
8336their political opponents, I think that is one of the worst crimes that
8337has occurred in the history of the United States when it comes to
8338politics."
8339
8340I could argue that that could be applied to different
8341
8342situations, but even actually talking about this investigation, do you
8343believe that this was an attempt to somehow turn the election or create
8344some sort of a political witch hunt into Donald Trump?
8345Mr. McCabe.
8346Ms. Jayapal.
8347
8348I know that it was not that.
8349Thank you.
8350
8351Let me read you one more:
8352
8353The
8354
8355President of the United States, as the chairman mentioned, recently
8356expressed the opinion that the FBI's reputation was in tatters.
8357
8358Do
8359
8360you think that the FBI is in tatters?
8361Mr. McCabe.
8362Ms. Jayapal.
8363
8364I do not.
8365Here's another one:
8366
8367But you are taking an FBI
8368
8369Department that was weakened by Mueller's time.
8370
8371He got rid of
8372
8373thousands and thousands of years of experience, I came to believe,
8374because he wanted younger people that were more yes-men, and so he got
8375rid of the people that could have advised him against some of the poor
8376decisions he made.
8377Do you believe you're a yes-man?
8378Mr. McCabe.
8379Ms. Jayapal.
8380
8381No.
8382And do you believe that Mr. Mueller -- that is a
8383
8384very good answer for that question -- do you believe that Mr. Mueller
8385got rid of thousands and thousands of people that somehow were
8386yes-men -- or were not yes-men, so that he could hire yes men?
8387Mr. McCabe.
8388
8389I am not aware of that.
8390COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
8391
8392125
8393
8394COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
8395
8396Ms. Jayapal.
8397
8398Here's another one:
8399
8400"Unfortunately the last
8401
84022 years have not been good years for the Bureau, and they have not been
8403good years for the Department."
8404
8405Would you like to tell us, Director
8406
8407McCabe, some of the good things the FBI has done in the last couple
8408of years?
8409Mr. McCabe.
8410world.
8411
8412Ma'am, we do great things every day all around the
8413
8414We recover children who have been kidnapped from their
8415
8416families.
8417
8418We arrest drug dealers.
8419
8420We put pedophiles in jail.
8421
8422We
8423
8424sometimes have to arrest politicians for engaging in corrupt behavior.
8425We collect intelligence in ways that most people will never, thank God,
8426know about.
8427
8428We do all that to protect the American people and uphold
8429
8430the Constitution, and we will continue doing all that work.
8431Ms. Jayapal.
8432
8433I thank you for that.
8434
8435You spoke very movingly
8436
8437about the effect that some of this had had on your family, your children,
8438and I thank you for sharing that.
8439Can you talk a little bit about what these kinds of comments and
8440the undermining of the FBI has had on the work of the employees of the
8441FBI or the morale of the FBI?
8442Mr. McCabe.
8443
8444Ma'am, I don't want to speculate as to guessing how
8445
8446people individually react to comments they hear in the media.
8447
8448I can
8449
8450tell you, as I have already today, the commitment that the men and women
8451have, the men and women of the FBI have, to our mission is remarkable,
8452and that commitment will not -- will not diminish.
8453
8454It will not fail,
8455
8456and that is the thing that enables us to achieve our mission every day
8457in a million different ways.
8458
8459It is the job of the leadership of the
8460
8461COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
8462
8463COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
8464
8465126
8466
8467FBI -- it has been my responsibility, but it is the responsibility of
8468other leaders, as well -- to try to keep our workforce focused on that
8469mission and not distracted by what they hear in the news or what may
8470be happening politically or otherwise in society but to stay focused
8471on that important work that we do.
8472We spend a lot of time talking to our folks, traveling around,
8473visiting field offices, constantly messaging, trying to provide
8474engaged, proactive leadership to ensure that they do exactly that.
8475Ms. Jayapal.
8476
8477And if the FBI was crippled or undermined what would
8478
8479be the effect on the United States national security?
8480Mr. McCabe.
8481independent FBI.
8482
8483This nation needs a strong, effective, and
8484It is my profound belief that that is what they
8485
8486currently have.
8487Ms. Jayapal.
8488
8489Thank you.
8490
8491I have one more line of questioning,
8492
8493and then I'm going to turn it over to my colleague, Mr. Lieu.
8494Are you familiar with Director Comey's testimony before the
8495Senate Intelligence Committee on June 8th, 2017?
8496Mr. McCabe.
8497Ms. Jayapal.
8498
8499Generally.
8500And did you generally find that his descriptions
8501
8502of events in those written and oral testimony were consistent with the
8503contemporaneous descriptions that he shared with you at the time of
8504the events?
8505Mr. McCabe.
8506Ms. Jayapal.
8507
8508Yes, ma'am.
8509And do you believe that Director Comey accurately
8510
8511shared with the Senate his memory of these interactions with the
8512COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
8513
8514COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
8515
8516127
8517
8518President to the best of his recollection?
8519Mr. McCabe.
8520
8521I mean, what he shared is consistent with what he
8522
8523shared with me.
8524Ms. Jayapal.
8525
8526So I would like to discuss a document that we can
8527
8528label interview exhibit, and it is the statement for the record to the
8529Senate Select Committee on Intelligence of James Comey on June 8th,
85302017.
8531
8532Are you familiar with this document?
8533Mr. McCabe.
8534
8535If I can take one second, please.
8536[McCabe Exhibit No. 3
8537Was marked for identification.]
8538
8539Ms. Jayapal.
8540Ms. Anderson.
8541
8542Sure.
8543
8544I go ahead.
8545
8546The document at least suggests that the line of
8547
8548questioning is going to be beyond the scope of what we agreed to produce
8549Mr. McCabe to testify to today, so if you would like to clarify.
8550Ms. Jayapal.
8551
8552And feel free if you can't -- if it feels like it
8553
8554is going beyond the scope, I assume you are going to let me know that
8555that is the case.
8556So, on page 2 -- it describes the first meeting -- the first
8557meeting that Director Comey described in this document takes place on
8558January 6th.
8559
8560It was the first meeting with President-elect Trump at
8561
8562Trump Tower, and it was at this meeting that Director Comey first
8563informed President-elect Trump about the allegations in the Fusion GPS
8564dossier, and on page 2 of the statement he wrote that "prior to the
8565January 6th meeting, I discussed with the FBI's leadership team whether
8566I should be prepared to assure President-elect Trump" -COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
8567
8568128
8569
8570COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
8571
8572Mr. Meadows.
8573from SSCI.
8574
8575Let me just -- point of order.
8576
8577This is a document
8578
8579It goes beyond the scope of what we agreed to cover, so
8580
8581I would just ask if you could look at the questions that are within
8582the scope because this is certainly beyond the scope of what we have
8583all agreed to.
8584
8585Okay?
8586
8587Ms. Jayapal.
8588
8589Okay.
8590
8591Even just the questions about whether you
8592
8593are aware of part of the leadership team?
8594Mr. Meadows.
8595
8596I think the context of what it is, is beyond the
8597
8598scope.
8599Ms. Jayapal.
8600to my colleague.
8601Mr. Lieu.
8602
8603All right.
8604
8605I'll turn it over to -- I'll yield time
8606
8607Thank you.
8608Thank you.
8609
8610Thank you, Mr. McCabe, for your dedicated
8611
8612service to our Nation.
8613Mr. McCabe.
8614Mr. Lieu.
8615
8616Thank you, sir.
8617Earlier, FBI Director Christopher Wray testified
8618
8619before this committee and said:
8620
8621No one is above the law.
8622
8623You would
8624
8625agree with that statement, right?
8626Mr. McCabe.
8627Mr. Lieu.
8628come up.
8629
8630Absolutely.
8631
8632All right.
8633
8634The issue of political contributions has
8635
8636So, as you know, political contributions are a matter of open
8637
8638record.
8639Mr. McCabe.
8640Mr. Lieu.
8641
8642Yes, sir.
8643
8644And we looked at the political contributions of FBI
8645
8646Director Christopher Wray.
8647
8648He has made over $39,000 in political
8649
8650contributions exclusively to Republicans.
8651
8652I trust he can continue to
8653
8654COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
8655
8656129
8657
8658COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
8659
8660do a fair and impartial job.
8661Mr. McCabe.
8662
8663Do you?
8664
8665I have always found Director Wray to be fair and
8666
8667impartial.
8668Mr. Lieu.
8669
8670We looked at the political contributions of Associate
8671
8672Attorney General Rachel Brand.
8673
8674She has made over $37,000 in
8675
8676contributions exclusively to Republicans.
8677and impartial job.
8678
8679I trust she can do a fair
8680
8681I don't demean or try to cast aspersions on her
8682
8683for exercising her First Amendment rights.
8684
8685Do you agree Rachel Brand
8686
8687can do a fair and impartial job?
8688Mr. McCabe.
8689
8690I have no reason to doubt her fairness or
8691
8692impartiality.
8693Mr. Lieu.
8694
8695Attorney General Jeff Sessions has made multiple
8696
8697contributions to the Republican Party in Alabama.
8698
8699I believe, when it
8700
8701comes to a criminal investigation, he can assess the facts fairly.
8702
8703Do
8704
8705you believe Attorney General Sessions, when it comes to criminal
8706investigations, can assess the facts fairly?
8707Mr. McCabe.
8708Mr. Lieu.
8709
8710I do.
8711Okay.
8712
8713In the FBI, you don't say someone can't
8714
8715investigate a person because they exercise their First Amendment right
8716to make political contributions, correct?
8717Mr. McCabe.
8718Mr. Lieu.
8719
8720We do not.
8721
8722When FBI agents go after people in investigations they
8723
8724also don't care the political party of the person they're
8725investigating, correct?
8726Mr. McCabe.
8727
8728We do not.
8729COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
8730
8731COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
8732
8733Mr. Lieu.
8734brought up.
8735
8736Okay.
8737
8738130
8739
8740Earlier, the issue of the tarmac incident was
8741
8742You don't know what was said there?
8743
8744Mr. McCabe.
8745Mr. Lieu.
8746
8747I do not.
8748Had Bill Clinton said something about the
8749
8750investigation of Hillary Clinton, that would be highly inappropriate,
8751correct?
8752Mr. McCabe.
8753Mr. Lieu.
8754
8755Yes.
8756To the Attorney General.
8757
8758Mr. McCabe.
8759Mr. Lieu.
8760
8761Yes.
8762Because we shouldn't be talking to Department of
8763
8764Justice officials about ongoing investigations and trying to influence
8765them.
8766
8767Isn't that right?
8768Mr. McCabe.
8769Mr. Lieu.
8770
8771That's right.
8772
8773So, when the President of the United States talks to
8774
8775FBI Director Comey about Michael Flynn, that would be highly
8776inappropriate, correct?
8777
8778Okay.
8779
8780You don't have to answer that.
8781
8782didn't realize it was out of scope.
8783but that's fine.
8784
8785I
8786
8787I'm not sure what the scope is,
8788
8789I'll go on.
8790
8791Earlier, it was brought up that there may have been some fact
8792witnesses in some of the interviews of the Hillary Clinton
8793investigation.
8794
8795I just wanted to understand it is because these were
8796
8797voluntary interviews so you had to negotiate with the other side who
8798would be in the room.
8799Mr. McCabe.
8800
8801Isn't that right?
8802
8803It is correct that they were all voluntary
8804
8805interviews that happened because we were able to negotiate an agreement
8806COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
8807
8808COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
8809
8810that got us to the interview.
8811
8812131
8813
8814I can't sit here and tell you exactly
8815
8816which -- what aspects of the interview were included in the agreement
8817or not because that took place by others, but, yes, there was an entirely
8818voluntary appearance.
8819
8820It was -- they, the interviews were conducted
8821
8822because the witness and the witnesses' attorneys and whoever else were
8823involved ultimately agreed to move forward with it.
8824Mr. Lieu.
8825
8826Great.
8827
8828Thank you.
8829
8830I'll yield to my colleague Mr.
8831
8832Raskin.
8833Mr. Raskin.
8834
8835Thank you very much.
8836
8837Mr. McCabe, it was reported in February 2017 that White House
8838Chief of Staff Reince Priebus asked Director Comey and asked you to,
8839quote, "publicly knock down media reports about communications between
8840Donald Trump's associates and Russians known to U.S. intelligence
8841during the 2016 Presidential campaign."
8842Mr. Meadows.
8843Mr. Raskin.
8844
8845Again, it is beyond the scope.
8846Okay.
8847
8848All right.
8849
8850Well, then, if that's beyond the
8851
8852scope, I'm going to stick then -Mr. Meadows.
8853
8854You're not a constitutional lawyer, but you know
8855
8856that's beyond the scope.
8857Mr. Raskin.
8858
8859I guess I never saw a written definition of what the
8860
8861scope was, but all right.
8862
8863Clearly, the scope is one that's been defined
8864
8865by a series of statements that have been made in this committee over
8866the last few weeks, so I am going to quote those and try to get your
8867response to it.
8868Representative Matt Gaetz, who is with us today, stated:
8869COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
8870
8871"I'm
8872
8873COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
8874
8875132
8876
8877proud to be joined by my fellow conservatives in the House to call for
8878an investigation into the FBI's procedures that allowed Hillary Clinton
8879to receive special treatment.
8880
8881We'll also investigate the
8882
8883unprecedented bias against President Trump that exists when we allow
8884people who hate the President to participate in the investigations
8885against him.
8886
8887Each day, we learn more information that reflects the
8888
8889double standard that unfortunately seems to be pervasive at the FBI."
8890So let me start with this:
8891
8892Do you agree with Representative
8893
8894Gaetz' statement that Hillary Clinton received special treatment?
8895Mr. McCabe.
8896
8897I do not.
8898
8899Mr. Raskin.
8900
8901Do you agree with his characterization that the FBI
8902
8903investigation has been compromised by unprecedented bias against
8904President Trump?
8905Mr. McCabe.
8906
8907No.
8908
8909Chairman Gowdy.
8910
8911As I have said -I don't know how he can answer that because we're
8912
8913not discussing the investigation of President Trump.
8914Ms. Jayapal.
8915Mr. Raskin.
8916
8917Wait a second.
8918I understood it to be about whether the
8919
8920investigation was somehow infected with bias.
8921Mr. Cicilline.
8922Mr. Raskin.
8923
8924Will you yield for a moment?
8925
8926Yes.
8927
8928Mr. Cicilline.
8929
8930Actually, it says, in your very
8931
8932communication -- this is, again, a communication from Mr. Gowdy and
8933Mr. Goodlatte purporting to describe the investigation -- says:
8934"Among other things, the committees are investigating the
8935COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
8936
8937133
8938
8939COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
8940
8941circumstances surrounding the FBI's decision to publicly announce the
8942investigation into former Secretary Hillary Clinton's handling of
8943classified information but not to publicly announce the investigation
8944into campaign associates of then candidate Donald Trump, the FBI's
8945decision to notify Congress by letter of the status of the investigation
8946both in October and November of 2016, and the FBI's decision to
8947appropriate from DOJ the decisionmaking authority with respect to
8948charging or not charging the former Secretary, and the FBI's time limit
8949with respect to this charging decision."
8950So, in that paragraph, you reference, in fact, the failure to
8951publicly announce the investigation into the campaign associates of
8952then candidate Donald Trump, and it seems to me that, in that context,
8953questions surrounding that are appropriate and within the scope of this
8954investigation, unless that was just a, you know -Chairman Gowdy.
8955
8956It is absolutely appropriate to ask about the
8957
8958DOJ, FBI policy about whether to make an investigation public.
8959fact, we have done that, also.
8960
8961That is fair game.
8962
8963In
8964
8965But issues
8966
8967factcentric to the Russia investigation, and what he just said, and,
8968number two, that's not what we're doing.
8969Mr. Raskin.
8970
8971Okay.
8972
8973Let me repeat the question because we may be
8974
8975differing as to what I was asking.
8976Do you believe that the decisions made about this investigation
8977were infected by an unprecedented bias against President Trump?
8978Mr. McCabe.
8979
8980Absolutely not.
8981
8982Mr. Raskin.
8983
8984Do you believe that there is a, quote, "pervasive
8985COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
8986
8987134
8988
8989COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
8990
8991double standard" at the FBI that has governed decisionmaking as to this
8992investigation?
8993Mr. McCabe.
8994
8995There is no double standard at the FBI.
8996
8997Mr. Raskin.
8998
8999Okay.
9000
9001It has also been stated by our esteemed
9002
9003colleague, Representative Jordan, that if everyone was dismissed from
9004the Mueller team who was anti-Trump, you wouldn't have anybody left.
9005Assuming that's a serious statement, do you agree with Representative
9006Jordan's statement that the FBI team working on the special counsel
9007investigation are all anti-Trump?
9008Chairman Gowdy.
9009
9010First of all, I want to assiduously avoid any
9011
9012conversation about Mueller's probe.
9013
9014And I don't think there's any
9015
9016setting to discuss that, so the Mueller probe, first of all, was 2017.
9017This is 2016, and it relates to Russia.
9018Mr. Raskin.
9019
9020Okay.
9021
9022let's go back then.
9023
9024Okay.
9025
9026Fair enough.
9027
9028A year before that.
9029
9030Fair enough.
9031
9032Well,
9033
9034Was the decisionmaking that
9035
9036too took place and the various things you were being asked about
9037infected with anti-Trump bias?
9038Mr. McCabe.
9039
9040The decisionmaking in the Clinton investigation?
9041
9042No, sir, or any -Mr. Raskin.
9043
9044Or I'll put it more broadly because I think the
9045
9046Chairman Gowdy's point is well put.
9047
9048Are your decisions about any
9049
9050criminal investigations infected with partisan bias or animus?
9051Mr. McCabe.
9052
9053No, sir, and if I could expand on that just for a
9054
9055minute and particularly in the context of this case, which I think is
9056a good example:
9057
9058FBI agents or FBI personnel are not in a position to
9059COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
9060
9061135
9062
9063COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
9064
9065be making individualized politically biased decisions on their cases
9066and particularly not in this case, which, as I have tried to describe
9067today, was run very closely with a small team of the senior most
9068leadership in the FBI.
9069So the decisionmaking was conducted in a collaborative
9070environment that was discussed repeatedly day after day and constant
9071updates, constant meetings, constant briefings on what had happened,
9072so there wasn't room for an individual who was politically biased to
9073start making decisions on their own and impacting the direction of the
9074investigation.
9075
9076It would not have happened.
9077
9078It could not have
9079
9080happened without being seen and perceived by myself and the other
9081leaders involved.
9082Mr. Raskin.
9083
9084Okay.
9085
9086I have got one final question for you, and
9087
9088I for one feel very sorry that we have dragged you through this process
9089given everything that we have learned today, but I want to ask you this:
9090As someone who has spent his life committed to the rule of law, to the
9091Department of Justice, what do you think it does to the rule of law
9092when public officials so politicize the public's understanding of the
9093rule of law that we attack prosecutors or investigators simply because
9094we don't like some of the results of a public investigation?
9095Mr. McCabe.
9096
9097Sir, respectfully, I'll comment on what's important
9098
9099to the work of the FBI.
9100
9101And our ability to interact with the public,
9102
9103to receive information from the public, to conduct the investigative
9104work that we are authorized to do depends in large part on our reputation
9105for integrity, for independence, for professionalism and competence,
9106COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
9107
9108136
9109
9110COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
9111
9112so anything that cuts against that reputation is damaging to the FBI,
9113damaging to the work we do, and damaging to our ability to protect this
9114Nation.
9115Mr. Raskin.
9116
9117Thank you very much.
9118
9119Mr. Johnson of Georgia.
9120
9121Thank you.
9122
9123Mr. McCabe, last week, we
9124
9125received a batch of text messages between Peter Strzok and Lisa Page.
9126There was one text that was issued or that was dated August 8th of 2015,
9127which states, quote:
9128
9129"I want to believe the path you threw out for
9130
9131consideration in Andy's office that there's no way he gets elected,
9132but I'm afraid we can't take that risk.
9133
9134It is like an insurance policy
9135
9136in the unlikely event you die before you're 40," end quote.
9137a text message from Strzok to Page.
9138
9139That's
9140
9141Are you familiar with that text
9142
9143message.
9144Mr. McCabe.
9145
9146I am only familiar with that text message because
9147
9148it has been -- it has been brought to my attention in this process and
9149through the media.
9150Mr. Johnson of Georgia.
9151
9152Do you know the identity of the "Andy"
9153
9154who is mentioned in that text message?
9155Mr. McCabe.
9156
9157I do not.
9158
9159Mr. Johnson of Georgia.
9160
9161Were there any other Andys who were
9162
9163working on this email investigation employed by the FBI or DOJ?
9164Mr. McCabe.
9165
9166I mean, not at my level and not that I'm aware of,
9167
9168sir, but I can't vouch for how many Andys we have.
9169Mr. Johnson of Georgia.
9170Ms. Jayapal.
9171
9172Thank you.
9173
9174Thank you.
9175
9176I have a couple more questions.
9177COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
9178
9179I yield back.
9180
9181You mentioned that
9182
9183137
9184
9185COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
9186
9187the FBI agents and the DOJ's career prosecutors had some disagreements
9188at times during the Clinton investigation.
9189Mr. McCabe.
9190Ms. Jayapal.
9191
9192Yes.
9193Regarding process issues, such as whether to issue
9194
9195a grand jury subpoena or negotiate for consensual access to the
9196computers or what counsel were permitted to represent Secretary
9197Clinton.
9198
9199Is that correct?
9200
9201Mr. McCabe.
9202
9203Yes.
9204
9205I don't know that we -- I don't know that we
9206
9207conflicted on what counsel was able to represent Secretary Clinton.
9208Ms. Jayapal.
9209
9210Oh, okay.
9211
9212that, but I'll take that out.
9213
9214I'll take that out.
9215
9216I thought I heard
9217
9218And so, in those discussions with career
9219
9220Department of Justice counsel over the process issues in the
9221investigations, were the discussions based on substantive
9222disagreements?
9223Mr. McCabe.
9224
9225I would say the discussions were based on strategic
9226
9227disagreements, differences of opinion about which path to take.
9228
9229We
9230
9231all knew where we needed to get to, and there were differences of opinion
9232as to the path we should take.
9233Ms. Jayapal.
9234
9235And so you said that Department attorneys did not
9236
9237want to litigate the issue regarding attorney/client privilege,
9238thought it would be faster to negotiate a resolution to get access to
9239the computers.
9240
9241Is that correct?
9242
9243Mr. McCabe.
9244Ms. Jayapal.
9245
9246That's correct.
9247And you ended up in the end getting access to all
9248
9249the computers that you wanted, the two laptops?
9250COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
9251
9252COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
9253
9254Mr. McCabe.
9255
9256Yes.
9257
9258Ms. Jayapal.
9259Mr. McCabe.
9260
9261138
9262
9263Correct?
9264Yes, we did.
9265
9266Ms. Jayapal.
9267
9268And did you end up getting access to all the
9269
9270witnesses that you wanted to question?
9271Mr. McCabe.
9272
9273We did.
9274
9275Ms. Jayapal.
9276
9277And did you ever think that those disagreements
9278
9279were based on improper political bias on behalf of the career Department
9280of Justice counsel?
9281Mr. McCabe.
9282Ms. Jayapal.
9283
9284I did not.
9285Mr. McCabe, the most senior person you listed at
9286
9287the DOJ in the day-to-day work of the Clinton investigation was George
9288Toscas.
9289
9290Is that right?
9291
9292Mr. McCabe.
9293Ms. Jayapal.
9294Mr. McCabe.
9295Ms. Jayapal.
9296
9297That's correct.
9298And is George Toscas a career attorney?
9299He is.
9300So, in other words, he does not -- he is not there
9301
9302because of any political appointment?
9303Mr. McCabe.
9304Ms. Jayapal.
9305Mr. McCabe.
9306Ms. Jayapal.
9307Mr. McCabe.
9308Ms. Jayapal.
9309Mr. McCabe.
9310
9311No, ma'am.
9312And how long has he been there as a career attorney?
9313A very long time.
9314A very long time.
9315
9316So lots of experience --
9317
9318Yes.
9319-- in the FBI.
9320Yes.
9321COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
9322
9323139
9324
9325COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
9326
9327Ms. Jayapal.
9328
9329So, just going back to political bias, there are
9330
9331political affiliations of FBI agents.
9332personal political affiliations.
9333Mr. McCabe.
9334Ms. Jayapal.
9335
9336They're allowed to have those
9337
9338Is that correct?
9339
9340Of course, yes.
9341And you're aware of news reports that have quoted
9342
9343over the years FBI as Trumpland unfavorable opinions of Secretary
9344Clinton as the anti-Christ, I mean, there are a lot of opinions that
9345seem to leak out into the public, some lambasting President Trump, some
9346lambasting Secretary Clinton.
9347Mr. McCabe.
9348Ms. Jayapal.
9349
9350We are full of opinions, and sometimes they leak out.
9351Very right.
9352
9353And Robert Mueller, Rod Rosenstein,
9354
9355James Comey, all Republicans?
9356Mr. McCabe.
9357Ms. Jayapal.
9358
9359That's what I have been told.
9360We have, too.
9361
9362And so what's the standard for FBI
9363
9364agents to ensure political bias does not affect their professional
9365work?
9366
9367How do you deal with that?
9368Mr. McCabe.
9369
9370I mean, FBI agents know based on their training and
9371
9372experience that that's not part of their job.
9373We go out, we conduct investigations.
9374
9375That's not what we do.
9376
9377We find the truth.
9378
9379We mitigate
9380
9381threats.
9382Ms. Jayapal.
9383Mr. McCabe.
9384
9385And you don't ask about political affiliations?
9386We don't ask each other about our political
9387
9388affiliation, and we don't allow those issues to get in the way of the
9389work that we do.
9390Ms. Jayapal.
9391
9392And when you put together a team of investigators,
9393COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
9394
9395140
9396
9397COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
9398
9399do you think about, "Oh, I need a couple of Republicans, and I need
9400a couple of Democrats"?
9401Mr. McCabe.
9402
9403Is that ever part of your thinking?
9404
9405No, ma'am.
9406
9407Ms. Jayapal.
9408
9409We don't think that way.
9410
9411And when you have a team, is there any one
9412
9413individual that could bring their political bias to such a strong force
9414that they would actually impact the direction of a decision that's made
9415in an investigation?
9416Mr. McCabe.
9417
9418I have never seen that happen.
9419
9420would be highly unlikely.
9421
9422In my opinion, it
9423
9424There are layers of approval and oversight
9425
9426and leadership that are involved, particularly in large, complicated
9427investigations, and that would be -- that would seem to me to be a very
9428hard thing to do.
9429Ms. Jayapal.
9430
9431So let me ask you one more time:
9432
9433Did you think
9434
9435there was political bias that somehow influenced the Clinton
9436investigation in your opinion?
9437Mr. McCabe.
9438
9439I did not think that during the investigation.
9440
9441do not think that now.
9442
9443I
9444
9445I never had any reason to suspect that any of
9446
9447the members of that team were being motivated or impacting their work
9448based on their political position.
9449Ms. Jayapal.
9450
9451Thank you.
9452
9453Mr. Cicilline.
9454
9455I'm going yield to Mr. Cicilline.
9456
9457May I just ask, did you -- a decision was made
9458
9459at the FBI not to publicly announce the investigation of Trump
9460associates in connection with Russian collusion and interfering in our
9461Presidential election, correct?
9462Mr. McCabe.
9463
9464No.
9465
9466I wouldn't characterize it as a decision made
9467COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
9468
9469141
9470
9471COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
9472
9473not to publicize the case because we don't publicly acknowledge cases.
9474That's kind of the default rule.
9475Mr. Cicilline.
9476
9477I mean, you made a public statement about the
9478
9479conclusion of the Clinton investigation.
9480Mr. McCabe.
9481
9482We did.
9483
9484And that was an exception to normal
9485
9486practice.
9487Mr. Cicilline.
9488
9489So, while there was an ongoing investigation of
9490
9491associates of the Trump campaign by the FBI, that was not shared with
9492the American people before the election as a matter of practice, not
9493as a result of an express decision.
9494Mr. McCabe.
9495
9496That's my understanding, yes.
9497
9498recollection, although -- hold on.
9499Mr. Cicilline.
9500Mr. McCabe.
9501
9502That's my
9503
9504Can I have that 1 second?
9505
9506Sure.
9507
9508Okay.
9509
9510Mr. Cicilline.
9511Mr. McCabe.
9512
9513Is that right?
9514
9515I'm sorry.
9516
9517And --
9518
9519We did ultimately reveal that the Director revealed
9520
9521that in his testimony here on the Hill, but not until much later.
9522Mr. Cicilline.
9523
9524That there was an ongoing criminal
9525
9526investigation?
9527Mr. McCabe.
9528
9529That's correct.
9530
9531Mr. Cicilline.
9532Ms. Jackson Lee.
9533
9534That's all I have.
9535May I have -- I understand that we may be out
9536
9537of town -- not out of town.
9538
9539That might be a happy thing, but I'm going
9540
9541to make one comment and lead off in the next session, but I want to
9542get this back on the record.
9543
9544Next time I speak, I'm going to speak
9545
9546COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
9547
9548142
9549
9550COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
9551
9552about your service, and so please forgive me for not doing that now.
9553Mr. McCabe.
9554
9555Okay.
9556
9557Ms. Jackson Lee.
9558
9559I'm going to read this again:
9560
9561I want to believe
9562
9563that the path you throughout for consideration in Andy's office and
9564there's -- that there's no way he gets elected, but I'm afraid we can't
9565take that risk.
9566
9567It is like an insurance policy in the unlikely event
9568
9569you die before you're 40.
9570That's a text that was issued on August 8th, 2015, at 10:29.
9571is the question:
9572
9573Here
9574
9575There have been outside political suggestions that
9576
9577this insurance policy reference is evidence of some nefarious plot.
9578Two questions.
9579
9580In your experience and service to the Nation, have you
9581
9582run upon the normal standard for the highest law enforcement officer
9583of the Nation to be involved in nefarious plots, and was there a
9584nefarious plot against this Presidential candidate who became
9585President of the United States?
9586Mr. McCabe.
9587
9588I have not seen that across the course of my career.
9589
9590I am not aware of any plot targeting either political candidate during
9591the 2016 election, and I can also tell you that I don't have any idea
9592what those two individuals were referring to in that text.
9593Ms. Jackson Lee.
9594
9595I will yield back and pursue this when we start
9596
9597up again for the Democrats.
9598Chairman Gowdy.
9599
9600Thank you very much.
9601
9602We're back on the record.
9603
9604Deputy Director
9605
9606McCabe, you were asked a question at the end that the question assumed
9607the existence of a criminal investigation into Trump campaign or
9608associates.
9609
9610I believe the question used the word "criminal."
9611COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
9612
9613Would
9614
9615143
9616
9617COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
9618
9619you like in any way to change the answer that you provided.
9620Mr. McCabe.
9621
9622Yes.
9623
9624I was referring in the answer to the
9625
9626announcement that Director Comey made during his testimony, which
9627revealed the existence of a counterintelligence investigation, not a
9628criminal investigation.
9629Chairman Gowdy.
9630observation.
9631
9632All right.
9633
9634Thank you.
9635
9636I want to make one
9637
9638Then my colleague is going to handle the rest of it.
9639
9640Reasonable minds are free to disagree about whether or not this is a
9641productive use of your time.
9642
9643It wasn't anybody on this side of the
9644
9645table that was cross-examining FBI agents for a living before they got
9646to Congress.
9647
9648Some of us aren't Johnny-come-latelys to appreciating
9649
9650and respecting the work of law enforcement, and it sure as hell wasn't
9651any Republicans that asked for Jim Comey to be prosecuted for a Hatch
9652Act violation about this time last year.
9653
9654So we are free to disagree
9655
9656over whether or not this is a productive use of your time and whether
9657or not these are areas in which Congress ought to be inquiring.
9658
9659I
9660
9661happen to think the Department of Justice and the FBI are big enough
9662to withstand even tough questions and their work can withstand
9663scrutiny.
9664
9665I have said from day one difficult fact patterns make for
9666
9667tough conclusions, but that doesn't mean the conclusions should not
9668be analyzed.
9669
9670So I just want the record to be really, really clear:
9671
9672Not a single damn one of us made a living cross-examining FBI agents
9673before we got to Congress.
9674
9675Some of the folks who are now in love with
9676
9677the FBI did.
9678Chairman Gowdy.
9679
9680You'll have 30 minutes.
9681COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
9682
9683You'll have 30
9684
9685144
9686
9687COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
9688
9689minutes, and you can spend your 30 minutes however you want to.
9690Mr. Buck.
9691
9692Good afternoon, Mr. McCabe.
9693
9694Mr. McCabe.
9695Mr. Buck.
9696
9697Good afternoon.
9698
9699Thank you for being here.
9700
9701I wanted to go back on some
9702
9703of the questions that Chairman Gowdy has asked you.
9704
9705I want to talk
9706
9707about the Director's office and the personnel in the Director's office,
9708if I can.
9709Mr. McCabe.
9710Mr. Buck.
9711
9712Okay.
9713
9714Can you describe that for me?
9715
9716I'm assuming that there
9717
9718is a chief of staff in the Director's office.
9719Mr. McCabe.
9720Mr. Buck.
9721
9722There is.
9723
9724During this timeframe, who was that chief of staff?
9725
9726Mr. McCabe.
9727Mr. Buck.
9728
9729James Rybicki, R-y-b-i-c-k-i.
9730
9731And approximately how many employees were there in the
9732
9733Director's office?
9734Mr. McCabe.
9735
9736That's a tough question to answer, because there are
9737
9738different kind of units and groups that work that may come
9739administratively under the Director's office.
9740Mr. Buck.
9741here.
9742
9743But I assume --
9744
9745I'm not trying to catch you in a -- in a tough question
9746
9747What I'm trying to figure out is the different functions.
9748Mr. McCabe.
9749Mr. Buck.
9750
9751Yep.
9752
9753Mr. McCabe.
9754
9755In my office, I have a scheduler.
9756
9757Mr. Buck.
9758
9759Sure.
9760
9761Mr. McCabe.
9762
9763I'm assuming the Director has a scheduler.
9764He does.
9765
9766He has an administrative assistant, or
9767
9768COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
9769
9770145
9771
9772COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
9773
9774secretary, that handles the scheduling duty.
9775
9776He, of course, has his
9777
9778chief of staff, who I've noted to you.
9779Mr. Buck.
9780
9781And who was the administrative assistant during that
9782
9783timeframe?
9784Mr. McCabe.
9785Mr. Buck.
9786
9787.
9788Is that
9789
9790Mr. McCabe.
9791
9792?
9793
9794Mr. Buck.
9795
9796Yes, sir.
9797Okay.
9798
9799And, again, who else would have worked on a
9800
9801daily basis with the Director in his office?
9802Mr. McCabe.
9803
9804Right.
9805
9806Right.
9807
9808Mr. Buck.
9809
9810-- outside groups, but --
9811
9812Mr. Buck.
9813
9814Me?
9815
9816You can't hear me?
9817
9818Ms. Jackson Lee.
9819Mr. Buck.
9820
9821Yes.
9822
9823I can hear me.
9824
9825Mr. Cicilline.
9826Mr. Buck.
9827
9828And I'm, again, not --
9829
9830-- insisting on it.
9831
9832It's not important.
9833
9834Don't worry about it.
9835
9836Go back
9837
9838to sleep.
9839Mr. McCabe.
9840Mr. Buck.
9841
9842He has a deputy chief of staff.
9843Okay.
9844
9845And who was that during this timeframe?
9846
9847Mr. McCabe.
9848
9849.
9850
9851And then there's, you know, a number
9852
9853of other, like, security detail personnel, administrative personnel,
9854things like that.
9855
9856But then the Director works very closely with
9857
9858myself, the Deputy Director.
9859of like a chief of staff.
9860Mr. Buck.
9861
9862I have a special assistant who's kind
9863
9864I could keep going and going.
9865
9866I appreciate that.
9867
9868So one of the things I'm trying
9869
9870COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
9871
9872COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
9873
9874146
9875
9876to understand is if the Director was going to make a trip to a field
9877office -Mr. McCabe.
9878Mr. Buck.
9879
9880Yes.
9881
9882-- what would be the process for arranging that trip?
9883
9884Certainly security has got to be notified.
9885Mr. McCabe.
9886Mr. Buck.
9887
9888Yep.
9889And there has to be transportation for that trip.
9890
9891Mr. McCabe.
9892Mr. Buck.
9893
9894Yes.
9895Who arranges those things?
9896
9897Mr. McCabe.
9898
9899His chief of staff really begins that process.
9900
9901He
9902
9903may delegate some of those responsibilities out to lower-level
9904staffers.
9905
9906But he's the person who really has visibility over the
9907
9908Director's schedule.
9909
9910He would -- you know, if the Director was
9911
9912traveling -- this is just an example.
9913
9914If the Director was traveling
9915
9916to New York to make a speech, he might reach out to the head of the
9917New York office and say, we're in town, should we plan a visit to the
9918field office while we're there, that sort of thing.
9919Mr. Buck.
9920
9921And who would handle press if the Director made a trip
9922
9923to New York?
9924Mr. McCabe.
9925
9926All the press issues would be handled by the national
9927
9928press office, which is currently, and at the time, was under the
9929leadership of Michael Kortan, K-o-r-t-a-n.
9930Mr. Buck.
9931Mr. McCabe.
9932
9933K-a-o-r-c-a-n?
9934
9935Mr. Buck.
9936
9937K-o-r-t as in Thomas -a-n as in Nancy.
9938Okay.
9939
9940Thank you.
9941COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
9942
9943147
9944
9945COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
9946
9947I want to talk a little bit about the process that your team was
9948going through in analyzing this case.
9949
9950What was the statute that you
9951
9952were contemplating in this case?
9953Mr. McCabe.
9954
9955Well, the case was predicated on the allegation
9956
9957that -- that classified material may have been -- you know, may have
9958traversed an unclassified system.
9959
9960So it was essentially a mishandling
9961
9962inquiry, but that could go in many different directions.
9963Mr. Buck.
9964
9965Sure.
9966
9967But at one point in time, the Director held a
9968
9969news conference and said no reasonable prosecutor would prosecute this
9970case.
9971
9972What statute would no reasonable prosecutor prosecute?
9973Mr. McCabe.
9974
9975The mishandling, mishandling classified
9976
9977information.
9978Mr. Buck.
9979
9980You wouldn't happen to know off the top of your head --
9981
9982Mr. McCabe.
9983Mr. Buck.
9984
9985I don't.
9986
9987Mr. McCabe.
9988
9989-- I'm guessing Title 18.
9990Yes.
9991
9992I couldn't tell you the cite.
9993
9994I don't
9995
9996remember.
9997Mr. Buck.
9998Mr. McCabe.
9999
10000What were the elements of that crime?
10001The intentional dissemination of classified
10002
10003material on an unclassified network, or to a person not authorized to -Mr. Buck.
10004Mr. McCabe.
10005
10006So --
10007
10008Mr. Buck.
10009
10010-- different -So I think we can agree that Secretary Clinton
10011
10012received, and always contemplated receiving classified information.
10013Mr. McCabe.
10014
10015I don't follow.
10016COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
10017
10018148
10019
10020COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
10021
10022Mr. Buck.
10023
10024You what?
10025
10026Mr. McCabe.
10027
10028I'm not sure I understand the question.
10029
10030You're
10031
10032asking me to say what Secretary Clinton expected to do?
10033Mr. Buck.
10034
10035Did Secretary Clinton receive classified information
10036
10037as Secretary of State?
10038Mr. McCabe.
10039
10040In her position, absolutely, she would typically
10041
10042receive classified information.
10043Mr. Buck.
10044
10045And was there any doubt about the fact that she had
10046
10047received seven streams, or whatever the number was, of classified
10048material, classified at top secret or otherwise?
10049Mr. McCabe.
10050
10051Are you referring to the -- the emails that we found
10052
10053that were classified that had -- that had been on the system?
10054Mr. Buck.
10055
10056Yes.
10057
10058Mr. McCabe.
10059
10060Is there a debate as to whether or not they were on
10061
10062that system?
10063Mr. Buck.
10064
10065And whether she had received those, whether she
10066
10067was -- whether they were being sent to her system.
10068Mr. McCabe.
10069Mr. Buck.
10070
10071No, sir, not that I'm aware of.
10072
10073Okay.
10074
10075And was there any question about the fact that
10076
10077her personal system was not a secured system?
10078Mr. McCabe.
10079Mr. Buck.
10080
10081No, sir.
10082There is no doubt about that?
10083
10084Mr. McCabe.
10085Mr. Buck.
10086
10087That's correct.
10088
10089Okay.
10090
10091So the question then is, the question that the
10092
10093FBI was investigating then, was the intent?
10094COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
10095
10096COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
10097
10098Mr. McCabe.
10099
10100That's correct.
10101
10102149
10103
10104That was the -- maybe the key issue
10105
10106that we were looking at.
10107Mr. Buck.
10108
10109Right.
10110
10111So did she have the intent to receive
10112
10113classified information on an unsecured server?
10114Mr. McCabe.
10115Mr. Buck.
10116
10117Yes, sir.
10118
10119I mean, that's my -- right.
10120
10121I mean, that's ultimately the question.
10122
10123Mr. McCabe.
10124
10125That's what we were looking at, right.
10126
10127Mr. Brower.
10128
10129I want to make sure the answer is clear.
10130
10131Mr. McCabe.
10132
10133So, to be clear, that's what we were looking into.
10134
10135Mr. Buck.
10136
10137Okay.
10138
10139And you have been with the FBI for how many
10140
10141years?
10142Mr. McCabe.
10143Mr. Buck.
10144
10145Twenty-one.
10146And you have received training throughout most of
10147
10148those years?
10149Mr. McCabe.
10150Mr. Buck.
10151
10152Yes.
10153
10154matters.
10155
10156And you have 21 years of experience in criminal
10157
10158How would you determine intent in a criminal case?
10159
10160Mr. McCabe.
10161Mr. Buck.
10162Mr. McCabe.
10163
10164Many different ways.
10165Give us some examples.
10166The things that people say, the things that people
10167
10168admit to, the documents or other pieces of evidence that would indicate
10169what they were thinking or their intention at a time in the past.
10170kinds of ways.
10171Mr. Buck.
10172
10173Would destruction of evidence be one indicia of
10174
10175intent?
10176COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
10177
10178All
10179
10180150
10181
10182COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
10183
10184Mr. McCabe.
10185Mr. Buck.
10186
10187It could be, depending on the facts.
10188
10189Would a false statement about the case be -- you just
10190
10191mentioned a confession.
10192
10193But a false statement about the facts of the
10194
10195case, could that be an indicia of intent?
10196Mr. McCabe.
10197
10198You're calling on me to speculate about a
10199
10200hypothetical, which I'm not comfortable doing.
10201Mr. Buck.
10202
10203Have you ever been involved in a prosecution or
10204
10205investigation of a case where a witness gave you a false statement,
10206and you believed that that false statement was an indicia of intent?
10207Mr. McCabe.
10208
10209I mean, that's a pretty big category.
10210
10211I've
10212
10213certainly been involved in cases where witnesses have not told the
10214truth, and people have many, many different reasons for not telling
10215the truth.
10216
10217It might be indicative of their intent to mislead.
10218
10219But
10220
10221without more facts, I couldn't -Mr. Buck.
10222
10223Okay.
10224
10225Well, let me give you a fact.
10226
10227The statement
10228
10229by Secretary Clinton that she had turned over all of her emails, did
10230that turn out to be true?
10231Mr. McCabe.
10232
10233Yeah, I'm not -- I'm not familiar with that
10234
10235statement specifically, sir.
10236Mr. Buck.
10237
10238You're not familiar with that statement?
10239
10240Mr. McCabe.
10241Mr. Buck.
10242
10243Yeah.
10244Okay.
10245
10246Mr. McCabe.
10247Mr. Buck.
10248
10249That's right.
10250
10251Did Secretary Clinton, in fact, turn over all of her
10252
10253emails when she was first requested to turn over her emails to your
10254COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
10255
10256151
10257
10258COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
10259
10260investigation?
10261Mr. McCabe.
10262
10263I don't know if I can answer that, sir.
10264
10265I don't have
10266
10267the -- I don't have the details of exactly what we asked her for
10268initially and what she gave us.
10269
10270I know we spent a lot of time trying
10271
10272to collect emails that were not turned over to us, but which we were
10273trying to essentially restore from devices and systems that had been
10274used in the past.
10275Mr. Buck.
10276
10277Is that your answer?
10278
10279I don't know after you conferred
10280
10281whether you wanted to -Mr. McCabe.
10282Mr. Buck.
10283
10284No, I'm good.
10285
10286So are you familiar with the term false exculpatory
10287
10288statements?
10289Mr. McCabe.
10290Mr. Buck.
10291
10292Yes.
10293
10294And did you find that Secretary Clinton made any false
10295
10296exculpatory statements?
10297Mr. McCabe.
10298
10299I'm not aware of any that we could prove were false
10300
10301exculpatory statements.
10302Mr. Buck.
10303
10304Are you aware of any that you investigated as being
10305
10306false exculpatory statements?
10307Mr. McCabe.
10308
10309I mean, we investigated the entire matter to include
10310
10311interviewing Secretary Clinton.
10312
10313And we considered the statements she
10314
10315made in that interview very carefully.
10316
10317I'm not aware of us
10318
10319investigating the Secretary for making a false exculpatory statement
10320in the course of that interview.
10321Mr. Buck.
10322
10323Either during the interview or during the timeframe
10324COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
10325
10326COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
10327
10328152
10329
10330of your investigation in public statements?
10331Mr. McCabe.
10332Mr. Buck.
10333
10334That's correct.
10335
10336I want to talk a little bit about your relationship
10337
10338with Director Comey.
10339
10340You were called in, not just on this case, but
10341
10342on many cases, to give Director Comey advice on matters.
10343Mr. McCabe.
10344
10345Were you not?
10346
10347Mr. Buck.
10348
10349We worked very closely together.
10350And did you ever consider your relationship with
10351
10352Director Comey to be one of attorney and client?
10353Mr. McCabe.
10354Mr. Buck.
10355
10356No.
10357
10358Okay.
10359
10360When it came to the work of Cheryl Mills with
10361
10362Secretary Clinton, did, at any point in time, Cheryl Mills assert an
10363attorney-client privilege during your interviews or agents' interviews
10364with Cheryl Mills?
10365Mr. McCabe.
10366Mr. Buck.
10367
10368I'm not aware of that, sir.
10369
10370So you are unaware of any assertion of attorney-client
10371
10372privilege by either Secretary Clinton regarding Cheryl Mills, or Cheryl
10373Mills regarding Secretary Clinton?
10374Mr. McCabe.
10375Mr. Buck.
10376
10377That's right.
10378
10379You have mentioned on a number of occasions in your
10380
10381questioning that you have -- that you were frustrated with some of the
10382avenues that you were going down, either in your relationship with the
10383Department of Justice, or in other areas.
10384
10385The ability to investigate
10386
10387this criminal intent, is that an area of frustration?
10388
10389Or was that an
10390
10391area of frustration?
10392Mr. McCabe.
10393
10394No, sir.
10395
10396I wouldn't cite that as an area generally.
10397
10398COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
10399
10400153
10401
10402COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
10403
10404That was kind of the -- one of the central points of what we were doing
10405across the scope of the investigation.
10406
10407Points of, as I refer to them,
10408
10409friction points or points of frustration, typically came up over kind
10410of strategic decisions.
10411
10412I don't want to say logistical, because that
10413
10414makes it sound not important, but more of the nuts and bolts of what's
10415the next step forward, are we going to go this way or are we going to
10416go that way?
10417
10418Are we going to pursue compulsory process?
10419
10420Or are we
10421
10422going to talk to try and get people to show up places voluntarily?
10423
10424That
10425
10426sort of thing.
10427Mr. Buck.
10428
10429So in my past, and in talking to other prosecutors and
10430
10431special agents, certainly trying to figure out what is in someone's
10432mind at the time they take an action is a challenge.
10433Mr. McCabe.
10434Mr. Buck.
10435
10436It is.
10437And that is the essence of intent.
10438
10439And to try to
10440
10441figure out just what state of mind Secretary Clinton had when she
10442received classified material on an unsecured server had to be an area
10443that was a preoccupation of this investigation.
10444Mr. McCabe.
10445Mr. Buck.
10446
10447Yes, sir.
10448
10449And did you -- what would it have taken for you to draw
10450
10451a conclusion that Secretary Clinton had the criminal intent necessary
10452to prosecute a case?
10453Mr. McCabe.
10454
10455Well, sir, I think it would have required not just
10456
10457an understanding, or an idea, about what her intent was, but actual
10458evidence in which we could prove what her intent was at a particular
10459time.
10460COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
10461
10462154
10463
10464COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
10465
10466Mr. Buck.
10467
10468So if she had come in on that Saturday in her interview
10469
10470and said, I really screwed up, I -- I -Mr. McCabe.
10471Mr. Buck.
10472
10473I'm sorry.
10474
10475Go ahead.
10476
10477If she had made a statement in that interview on
10478
10479Saturday that indicated that she knew that she was receiving classified
10480material, that she was receiving it on an unsecured server, and that
10481she did this knowingly and intentionally, would that have convinced
10482you, or would that have caused you pause, at least, in your
10483deliberations?
10484Mr. McCabe.
10485
10486Sir, I don't want to speculate on things that the
10487
10488Secretary might have done had she done them differently.
10489
10490I will say
10491
10492that we went into that interview open to the fact that we might learn
10493something in the course of that interview that changed our current
10494assessment of what that case looked like, and what the potential for
10495prosecution looked like, which going into that interview, had been the
10496same as it had for many, many months, which was not particularly strong.
10497I mean, as you know, I'm sure, in no investigation that I've ever
10498been involved in do we wait until the absolute last interview is done
10499to say, okay, let's start thinking about, what do we have.
10500we met on this case almost daily.
10501
10502I mean,
10503
10504We had comprehensive briefings on
10505
10506the status of the case at least once a week.
10507
10508But, in reality, we met,
10509
10510as issues came up, much more frequently than that.
10511
10512And in each one
10513
10514of these we would develop an understanding of what we had seen of the
10515evidence so far.
10516
10517And that picture was consistent over the last several
10518
10519months of the investigation.
10520
10521The assessment of the investigators and
10522
10523COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
10524
10525COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
10526
10527155
10528
10529the analysts who were looking at this stuff, who were going through
10530the mails, reconstructing these servers, was consistent over the course
10531of that period.
10532So, yes, we had an understanding of what the case looked like.
10533But as we went into all of those interviews, to include the Secretary's,
10534we did it with open eyes, open ears, and an open mind as to what we
10535might get.
10536
10537If we got anything significant -- if we got something that
10538
10539changed the way that we thought about the case, we were open to that.
10540Mr. Buck.
10541
10542And you were open at the time that you -- by the way,
10543
10544I'm not sure that I interviewed many targets, or that the agents had
10545an opportunity to interview many targets.
10546unusual.
10547
10548So this was somewhat
10549
10550And what was the label that you placed on Secretary Clinton?
10551
10552I don't want to use the term target if she was a subject.
10553Mr. McCabe.
10554Mr. Buck.
10555
10556She was a subject.
10557Okay.
10558
10559Mr. McCabe.
10560Mr. Buck.
10561
10562And we do subject interviews fairly frequently.
10563
10564Okay.
10565
10566I take it you were prepared, then, at the time
10567
10568of Secretary Clinton's interview, to follow up on any leads that you
10569may have received from Secretary Clinton's interview.
10570Mr. McCabe.
10571
10572Of course.
10573
10574Mr. McCabe.
10575
10576No, sir.
10577
10578Mr. Jordan.
10579
10580Thank you.
10581
10582And were there any leads that she gave
10583
10584you?
10585Not that I remember.
10586
10587Director, do you go by any other -- do you go by Andrew, Andy,
10588Drew, any other nickname or -COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
10589
10590COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
10591
10592Mr. McCabe.
10593
10594Not Drew.
10595
10596Mr. Jordan.
10597
10598Andrew or Andy.
10599
10600Okay.
10601
10602156
10603
10604I'm Andrew or Andy.
10605
10606I think earlier today when the minority party was
10607
10608questioning, you indicated on July 27th of this summer, you were
10609contacted by Mr. Horowitz, the Inspector General, about an issue that
10610you needed to -- needed to be dealt with promptly.
10611Mr. McCabe.
10612
10613That's correct.
10614
10615Mr. Jordan.
10616
10617Peter Strzok.
10618
10619And you had that meeting, and I think you indicated earlier today
10620that you made the decision to remove Peter Strzok from the special
10621counsel's team.
10622Mr. McCabe.
10623
10624I discussed it with my -- with a few other -- a small
10625
10626number of leaders, and I instructed Bill Priestap to contact the special
10627counsel's office and tell them that we felt we needed to move Peter
10628off the team.
10629Mr. Jordan.
10630
10631Did anyone instruct you to remove Peter Strzok from
10632
10633the special counsel's team?
10634Mr. McCabe.
10635
10636No, sir.
10637
10638Mr. Jordan.
10639
10640You made that decision?
10641
10642Mr. McCabe.
10643
10644That's right.
10645
10646Well, we made it in concert with the
10647
10648special counsel's office.
10649Mr. Jordan.
10650
10651Okay.
10652
10653And why was he removed?
10654
10655Mr. McCabe.
10656
10657He was removed because -- understanding what the IG
10658
10659was looking into, we felt that even the possibility of the appearance
10660of bias could potentially undermine the work of the special counsel's
10661COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
10662
10663157
10664
10665COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
10666
10667team, and I didn't want to take that chance.
10668Mr. Jordan.
10669
10670Just last round of questioning from the minority
10671
10672party, you said political opinions don't affect your work product.
10673
10674So
10675
10676that's where I'm having trouble, is, if political opinions don't affect
10677work product, why did you feel it was necessary to remove Peter Strzok
10678from the team?
10679Mr. McCabe.
10680
10681I've never observed political opinions by Peter
10682
10683Strzok or anyone else affecting their work product.
10684Mr. Jordan.
10685
10686But, nevertheless, you decided to remove him from
10687
10688the team?
10689Mr. McCabe.
10690
10691I did.
10692
10693Mr. Jordan.
10694
10695And that was, again, you said in
10696
10697consultation -- Mr. Rosenstein just testified in front of this
10698committee last week, and he said the decision to remove Mr. Strzok from
10699the case was made by Director Mueller based upon the circumstances known
10700to him.
10701
10702So was it you or was it Director Mueller?
10703
10704Mr. McCabe.
10705
10706As I said, I instructed Bill Priestap to reach out
10707
10708to the special counsel's team and let them know what we wanted to do.
10709And, ultimately -- I can't speak to the process that they were going
10710through.
10711
10712I think they became aware of the email at the same time, or
10713
10714the text messages at the same time.
10715Mr. Jordan.
10716
10717Yeah.
10718
10719Mr. McCabe.
10720
10721But I can tell you what we were thinking in the FBI
10722
10723Building.
10724Mr. Jordan.
10725
10726Did you weigh in on the front end?
10727COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
10728
10729In other words,
10730
10731158
10732
10733COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
10734
10735did you decide on the front end that Mr. Strzok should be a part of
10736the special counsel team?
10737Mr. McCabe.
10738
10739Or was that solely done by Mr. Mueller?
10740
10741Mr. Mueller was definite -- should -- am I supposed
10742
10743to go down this road?
10744Excuse me one second.
10745Mr. Jordan.
10746
10747Mr. McCabe, I didn't plan to bring it up.
10748
10749minority party raised it.
10750
10751You indicated you fired him.
10752
10753The
10754
10755We saw -- it
10756
10757rang a bell with us that that was contrary to what Mr. Rosenstein
10758testified to just last week.
10759
10760That's why I'm bringing it up.
10761
10762And it
10763
10764seems to me if you're making a decision on the back end to kick someone
10765off because of what's been reported as political bias, even though
10766you've indicated that political opinions don't affect work product,
10767I kind of want to know what happened on the front end, and who decided
10768he was going to be on the team in the first place?
10769Mr. Schools.
10770
10771That's, I think, our assessment is outside the
10772
10773scope, outside the investigation, assignment of personnel to the
10774investigation.
10775Mr. Jordan.
10776
10777Okay.
10778
10779Earlier, Mr. McCabe, with Chairman Gowdy,
10780
10781you were talking about some of the difficulties you felt that you had
10782in witnesses who were there.
10783
10784You even referenced Mr. Strzok objecting
10785
10786to folks being in the room when you, I think, conducted the interview
10787of Secretary Clinton.
10788
10789Who at DOJ was making those decisions that -- in
10790
10791that example, for instance, that other people could be there for the
10792questioning of Secretary Clinton?
10793
10794What was the person at Justice
10795
10796Department who was in charge of saying, Here's the immunity deals we're
10797COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
10798
10799159
10800
10801COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
10802
10803doing, here's who is going to be in the room, making those decisions?
10804Mr. McCabe.
10805
10806My understanding is George Toscas.
10807
10808Mr. Jordan.
10809
10810George Toscas?
10811
10812Mr. McCabe.
10813
10814Yep.
10815
10816Mr. Jordan.
10817
10818Okay.
10819
10820Last thing to, one other -- and I know Mr.
10821
10822Ratcliffe is anxiously awaiting.
10823Oh, do you think the Washington field office could have handled
10824this investigation?
10825investigation.
10826
10827You said it was a headquarters special type of
10828
10829But do you think they're competent enough?
10830
10831you ran that agency.
10832Mr. McCabe.
10833
10834I mean,
10835
10836Could they have handled the investigation there?
10837
10838I don't want to go back and speculate on how that
10839
10840decision was made at headquarters, which I was not a part of.
10841
10842But I
10843
10844have great confidence in the program at the Washington field office.
10845Mr. Jordan.
10846
10847And I think there's an email that you sent to the
10848
10849Washington field office indicating that it wouldn't be handled there,
10850but would, instead, be handled at the headquarters?
10851Mr. McCabe.
10852
10853There may be.
10854
10855I would have to look at the email.
10856
10857Mr. Jordan.
10858
10859Forgive me, if you would, Mr. Ratcliffe.
10860
10861I want to
10862
10863find -Sent an email notifying the Washington field office that the
10864Clinton investigation would be handled as a headquarter special.
10865
10866Did
10867
10868anyone tell you to send that notice to the Washington field office?
10869Mr. McCabe.
10870
10871Again, I'd have to take a look at the email to try
10872
10873to remember what was behind it.
10874Mr. Jordan.
10875
10876Okay.
10877COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
10878
10879160
10880
10881COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
10882
10883Mr. Ratcliffe.
10884
10885Deputy Director, I want to make sure that I'm
10886
10887catching all the different things that made this case unique.
10888
10889We
10890
10891talked about this, and, you know, a lot of us, as Chairman Gowdy
10892mentioned, have had prior experience with some of these matters.
10893I will tell you I also find them unique.
10894that we've been talking about.
10895
10896And
10897
10898But it seems like a long list
10899
10900I want to make sure I've captured them
10901
10902all.
10903You talked about one of the things being the change of
10904classifications, or the requests for change of classifications,
10905referring to this as a matter instead of an investigation, the lack
10906of the Attorney General or the Deputy Attorney General being involved
10907in a case of this nature.
10908You talked about frustration with the Department of Justice not
10909wanting to use the compulsory process with regard to interviewing
10910witnesses.
10911
10912Talking about multiple witnesses being present for grand
10913
10914jury proceedings.
10915And let me ask you one question.
10916Mr. Schools.
10917
10918Was a grand jury ever convened?
10919
10920Mr. Ratcliffe.
10921
10922We can't talk about grand jury proceedings.
10923Well, you're right.
10924
10925You can't talk about grand
10926
10927jury proceedings, 6(c) would prevent that.
10928
10929But you can talk about
10930
10931whether or not one existed?
10932Mr. Schools.
10933Mr. Ratcliffe.
10934
10935I don't think that's appropriate.
10936Okay.
10937
10938Unusual, though, in a case like this.
10939
10940Talked about immunity agreements.
10941
10942One thing that had been out
10943
10944there, at least was reported, was that the FBI was barred from asking
10945COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
10946
10947161
10948
10949COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
10950
10951Cheryl Mills questions that went to the heart of the email
10952investigation.
10953
10954Specifically, I think you made reference to about the
10955
10956process by which Secretary Clinton decided which of her 60,000 emails
10957to surrender to the Department, which would be withheld.
10958
10959Was there
10960
10961some frustration about that?
10962Mr. McCabe.
10963
10964I'm not aware of that.
10965
10966Mr. Ratcliffe.
10967
10968Okay.
10969
10970Were there key areas of inquiry, to your
10971
10972mind, that were cut off where the FBI was not allowed to go?
10973Mr. McCabe.
10974
10975Not that I'm aware of.
10976
10977Mr. Ratcliffe.
10978
10979Okay.
10980
10981Was there some agreement regarding the
10982
10983destruction of evidence after the FBI had it?
10984Mr. McCabe.
10985
10986I have a general recollection that that was one of
10987
10988the items that was discussed with the attorneys in the course of
10989negotiating access to evidence.
10990Mr. Ratcliffe.
10991
10992Okay.
10993
10994And would that be typical?
10995
10996I haven't
10997
10998seen it, the reason I'm asking.
10999Mr. McCabe.
11000
11001I'm sorry.
11002
11003Mr. Ratcliffe.
11004Mr. McCabe.
11005
11006Hold on.
11007
11008Sure.
11009
11010I'm not aware -- I'm not aware of that happening.
11011
11012Mr. Ratcliffe.
11013immunity agreements.
11014
11015Okay.
11016
11017One of the things that was mentioned was
11018
11019And I know you said you didn't recall a whole
11020
11021bunch of specific information about that.
11022a guy named
11023Mr. McCabe.
11024
11025Can I ask her a question?
11026
11027But do you remember one for
11028
11029.
11030I remember
11031
11032Mr. Ratcliffe.
11033
11034Okay.
11035
11036.
11037
11038And he was the Platte River Network.
11039
11040COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
11041
11042He
11043
11044COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
11045
11046162
11047
11048was the one that used BleachBit, and was the one that former Director
11049Comey testified lied to the FBI before getting the immunity agreement.
11050Do you remember any discussion about that?
11051Mr. McCabe.
11052
11053Generally.
11054
11055Mr. Ratcliffe.
11056Mr. McCabe.
11057
11058And that would be unusual.
11059
11060I don't think that would be unusual.
11061
11062Mr. Ratcliffe.
11063
11064It wouldn't be unusual for someone to lie to the
11065
11066FBI, and get an immunity agreement?
11067Mr. McCabe.
11068
11069No.
11070
11071Mr. Ratcliffe.
11072
11073Okay.
11074
11075The reason it seemed unusual, as you know,
11076
11077recently folks that have lied to the FBI have gotten 18 U.S.C. 1001
11078charges brought against them.
11079at the Justice Department.
11080
11081That's what we would bring when I was
11082
11083I don't ever recall rewarding someone for
11084
11085lying to the FBI with an immunity agreement.
11086
11087But you're saying that's
11088
11089not unusual?
11090Mr. McCabe.
11091
11092I'm saying that the use of immunity agreements to
11093
11094obtain the testimony of a witness is not unusual.
11095Mr. Ratcliffe.
11096
11097Okay.
11098
11099Did that immunity agreement lead to any
11100
11101useful information that resulted in prosecution?
11102Mr. McCabe.
11103
11104I don't remember, sir.
11105
11106Mr. Ratcliffe.
11107
11108Well, did any of the immunity agreements lead to
11109
11110the useful information that lead to the prosecution of any individuals?
11111Mr. McCabe.
11112
11113I'd have to go back and look at the 302's of the
11114
11115individuals from those interviews and, I have not done that.
11116Mr. Ratcliffe.
11117
11118So it's possible that there are people that have
11119COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
11120
11121COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
11122
11123163
11124
11125been charged in connection with this matter?
11126Mr. McCabe.
11127
11128I'm sorry, I'm not following you.
11129
11130Mr. Ratcliffe.
11131
11132I'm asking whether, in connection with this, the
11133
11134immunity agreements, whether it yielded information that led to charges
11135being brought in connection with the Hillary Clinton email
11136investigation.
11137Mr. McCabe.
11138
11139I'm sorry.
11140
11141I thought you said whether they led to
11142
11143information being generated.
11144Mr. Ratcliffe.
11145
11146Okay.
11147
11148Charges, no.
11149
11150No, sir.
11151
11152Anyway, it's a very long list, a lot of
11153
11154unusual, unique things.
11155You know, I guess the FBI, as I recall it, being sort of
11156an -- aggressively trying to make a case.
11157
11158Can you see why, in light
11159
11160of all of these things, many of which have been in the public view,
11161there are folks that think that maybe the FBI or the Department of
11162Justice was trying not to make a case here?
11163Chairman Gowdy.
11164
11165You're going to answer that question, then we're
11166
11167out of time.
11168Mr. McCabe.
11169
11170I'm not going to speculate, sir, on how -- what the
11171
11172public view might have been.
11173Mr. Ratcliffe.
11174questioning.
11175
11176Okay.
11177
11178My time is up.
11179
11180I'm just getting into the
11181
11182But if I can lead off the next round.
11183
11184Chairman Gowdy.
11185Mr. Ratcliffe.
11186Mr. Buck.
11187
11188You can lead off and finish the next round.
11189Okay.
11190
11191Mr. McCabe.
11192
11193Thank you.
11194Thank you.
11195COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
11196
11197164
11198
11199COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
11200
11201Ms. Jackson Lee.
11202myself.
11203
11204Deputy Director, I'm going to reintroduce
11205
11206Sheila Jackson Lee.
11207
11208Thank you very much for your time.
11209
11210And before I start, let me -- as I said at the beginning, I noted
11211your commitment to the values of the FBI which drove you, as a lawyer,
11212to become a member of the FBI.
11213
11214And I want to bring these cases out.
11215
11216And I have a general question.
11217
11218And that is, what role the FBI -- very
11219
11220briefly -- in fact, I will ask a question, what role was the FBI
11221intimately involved in these cases in solving them?
11222Mr. McCabe.
11223
11224Okay.
11225
11226Ms. Jackson Lee.
11227
11228Timothy McVeigh, domestic terrorist who killed
11229
11230168 Americans in the Oklahoma City bombing.
11231Mr. McCabe.
11232
11233Yes, ma'am.
11234
11235Ms. Jackson Lee.
11236Mr. Meadows.
11237
11238And some of these are historical.
11239
11240Klansmen --
11241
11242Sheila, we're trying to keep the scope -- we
11243
11244defined the scope of what it is.
11245Ms. Jackson Lee.
11246
11247I mean, and -- and so --
11248
11249I am laying a groundwork to
11250
11251questions that -- comments that he made about his commitment to the
11252FBI.
11253
11254I'll be finished with this in just a moment.
11255Mr. Meadows.
11256
11257Well, as long as it's within the scope.
11258
11259Ms. Jackson Lee.
11260
11261It's within the scope.
11262
11263Klansmen who murdered civil rights workers Goodman, Chaney, and
11264Schwerner.
11265Mr. McCabe.
11266
11267Yes, ma'am.
11268
11269Ms. Jackson Lee.
11270
11271Intimately involved.
11272
11273The murderer who assassinated Medgar Evers.
11274COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
11275
11276COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
11277
11278Mr. McCabe.
11279
11280165
11281
11282Yes, ma'am, I believe so.
11283
11284Ms. Jackson Lee.
11285
11286And the Klansmen who killed four little girls
11287
11288in the 16th Street Baptist Church.
11289Mr. McCabe.
11290
11291That's my understanding.
11292
11293Ms. Jackson Lee.
11294
11295So when we speak of the role of the FBI, and
11296
11297your willingness to join the FBI, was it that basis of integrity and
11298service to solving heinous crimes, for example?
11299Mr. McCabe.
11300
11301That's exactly right.
11302
11303Ms. Jackson Lee.
11304
11305And does the work of the FBI and the men and
11306
11307women of the FBI continue to make you proud?
11308Mr. McCabe.
11309
11310It does, ma'am, every day.
11311
11312Ms. Jackson Lee.
11313
11314And as the Deputy Director, do you continue to
11315
11316try and emphasize that to those who work for you?
11317Mr. McCabe.
11318
11319I do.
11320
11321Ms. Jackson Lee.
11322
11323So as I pursue the line of questioning that I
11324
11325had earlier, and this may just be a yes or no, I asked you the question
11326whether the insurance policy reference was nefarious, and you answered
11327that.
11328
11329But now I will follow up.
11330
11331To your knowledge, was there any plot
11332
11333at the FBI against Donald Trump to prevent his election?
11334Mr. McCabe.
11335
11336No, ma'am.
11337
11338Ms. Jackson Lee.
11339
11340Was there any plot against Donald Trump in the
11341
11342event of his election?
11343Mr. McCabe.
11344
11345No, ma'am.
11346
11347Ms. Jackson Lee.
11348
11349Was there any plan or a plan to conduct a coup
11350
11351against President Trump?
11352COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
11353
11354166
11355
11356COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
11357
11358Mr. McCabe.
11359
11360Absolutely not.
11361
11362Ms. Jackson Lee.
11363
11364And, of course, this was by the FBI.
11365
11366To your
11367
11368knowledge, have you known of any other actors who may wish to do that?
11369Mr. McCabe.
11370
11371I would be required to reveal that, ma'am.
11372
11373Ms. Jackson Lee.
11374
11375Was there ever a discussion about official
11376
11377action to harm President Trump?
11378Mr. McCabe.
11379
11380Absolutely not.
11381
11382Ms. Jackson Lee.
11383
11384Were you involved in any discussion that the
11385
11386FBI should move quickly on the Russian investigation because Mr. Trump
11387might, in fact, win the election, even though the odds are against him,
11388and that he might put some individuals under investigation into key
11389positions in the administration?
11390Ms. Anderson.
11391
11392This seems to go beyond the scope.
11393
11394Ms. Jackson Lee.
11395
11396I will yield to that interpretation because the
11397
11398word Russia is in there, though I think that it could be answered.
11399
11400But
11401
11402I can appreciate the comment.
11403Let me pursue this line of questioning that may have come about.
11404But as I do that, let me, again, lay sort of a predicate for it.
11405metaphor of smoke, looking for a smoking gun.
11406for emails.
11407smoke.
11408
11409Some would call it a witch hunt.
11410
11411A
11412
11413We are still looking
11414I'd call it smoldering
11415
11416But I do think it's important for our members to get facts.
11417
11418And so the issue around the grossly negligent and -- which deals with
11419Clinton's emails, and the question of extremely careless.
11420
11421When
11422
11423you -- when I heard you discussing this point before, you were
11424indicating that you don't wait until the last minute to sort of surmise
11425COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
11426
11427167
11428
11429COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
11430
11431how this investigation may come out.
11432Mr. McCabe.
11433
11434That's right.
11435
11436Ms. Jackson Lee.
11437
11438So how long did the FBI previously conduct an
11439
11440investigation into Clinton emails, as you were getting toward that
11441timeframe where a decision was going to be made, had this been an ongoing
11442investigation?
11443Mr. McCabe.
11444
11445How long had the investigation been underway?
11446
11447Ms. Jackson Lee.
11448Mr. McCabe.
11449
11450How long it had been ongoing, yes.
11451
11452As I wasn't there when they initiated the
11453
11454investigation, my best recollection is that we opened the case late
11455summer, early fall of 2015.
11456Ms. Jackson Lee.
11457Mr. McCabe.
11458
11459Were you in New York?
11460
11461I was in the Washington field office.
11462
11463Ms. Jackson Lee.
11464
11465Washington field office.
11466
11467Let me just continue on.
11468
11469Okay.
11470
11471We'll take that framework.
11472
11473Was there
11474
11475an ultimate decision made at the end of such investigation?
11476Mr. McCabe.
11477
11478At the end of the Clinton email investigation --
11479
11480Ms. Jackson Lee.
11481Mr. McCabe.
11482
11483-- did we make a decision?
11484
11485Ms. Jackson Lee.
11486Mr. McCabe.
11487
11488Yep.
11489
11490Yes.
11491
11492We did, ma'am.
11493
11494The statement that Director Comey
11495
11496made on July 5 captured that.
11497Ms. Jackson Lee.
11498
11499And, obviously, there was a scratching out or
11500
11501some earlier discussions of grossly negligent and some discussions
11502about extremely careless.
11503
11504Do you know when you might have come upon
11505
11506COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
11507
11508168
11509
11510COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
11511
11512the final wording of extremely careless?
11513Mr. McCabe.
11514
11515I don't know the answer to that, ma'am.
11516
11517Ms. Jackson Lee.
11518
11519Do you know what the thinking was that went into
11520
11521that?
11522Mr. McCabe.
11523
11524Ma'am, all I can tell you was I'm familiar -- I know
11525
11526what Director Comey was thinking when he went forward with his statement
11527in July.
11528Ms. Jackson Lee.
11529Mr. McCabe.
11530
11531And what was that?
11532
11533Exactly what he expressed in his statement on July
11534
115355.
11536Ms. Jackson Lee.
11537Mr. McCabe.
11538
11539Which was --
11540
11541Ms. Jackson Lee.
11542Mr. McCabe.
11543
11544Which was?
11545
11546If you can recall.
11547
11548Yeah.
11549
11550I know it's a recollection.
11551
11552Which was that we're not in a position to
11553
11554recommend charging the Secretary.
11555Ms. Jackson Lee.
11556We all know.
11557
11558And why did Director Comey make that statement?
11559
11560We've all been prosecutors or judges.
11561
11562We're on the
11563
11564Judiciary Committee.
11565Mr. McCabe.
11566
11567Yes, ma'am.
11568
11569Ms. Jackson Lee.
11570
11571We typically look to the Attorney General to
11572
11573do that.
11574Mr. McCabe.
11575
11576So Director Comey felt that the extremely high level
11577
11578of public interest in this case, the extremely high level of public
11579interest in how we were doing this work, and what we were doing, and
11580when and how we would conclude it, put him in a position where he felt
11581COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
11582
11583169
11584
11585COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
11586
11587like he needed to -- someone needed to explain to the American people
11588exactly what we had done and what we had found.
11589
11590And he did not believe
11591
11592that the Department of Justice was best positioned to give that
11593explanation at that time.
11594Ms. Jackson Lee.
11595
11596This, however, I hope, would not be an ongoing
11597
11598impact on the Department of Justice and its integrity.
11599
11600Was that the
11601
11602statement he was trying to make?
11603Mr. McCabe.
11604
11605No, ma'am.
11606
11607In fact, Director Comey was acutely
11608
11609aware of the danger and did not want to set a precedent by doing this.
11610But he also felt that the facts and the circumstances around this case
11611were, as we've discussed already this morning, or this afternoon,
11612unique and called for an uncommonly public statement.
11613Ms. Jackson Lee.
11614
11615And you came on afterwards.
11616
11617But was there any
11618
11619second-guessing around the non prosecution of, at that time, Mrs.
11620Clinton?
11621Mr. McCabe.
11622
11623No, ma'am.
11624
11625The team was consistent in their
11626
11627assessment of the evidence in the many months leading up to July 5.
11628Ms. Jackson Lee.
11629
11630With no reference to, or no alluding to
11631
11632individuals in the FBI were bias one way or the other, meaning, you
11633didn't have to run away from FBI agents that you thought were biased,
11634let's get this done, or those who didn't want it to get done.
11635
11636And when
11637
11638I say that, the prosecution of Mrs. Clinton.
11639Mr. McCabe.
11640
11641That's right, ma'am.
11642
11643The team was committed to
11644
11645getting our work done and being in a position to have a confident
11646understanding of what we had seen.
11647COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
11648
11649COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
11650
11651Ms. Jackson Lee.
11652
11653170
11654
11655So no one, to your knowledge, was saying that
11656
11657the scoundrel got away with, I'll put in quotes, "a heinous act," and
11658we made the wrong decision?
11659Mr. McCabe.
11660
11661No, ma'am.
11662
11663Ms. Jackson Lee.
11664
11665You felt, or what you perceived was a thorough
11666
11667investigation, as it would be in any other of your investigations, you
11668end it, you make a determination, and you are satisfied with that?
11669Mr. McCabe.
11670
11671That's right.
11672
11673Ms. Jackson Lee.
11674
11675No one called you to alter any thinking that
11676
11677you might have had to prosecute Mrs. Clinton?
11678Mr. McCabe.
11679
11680No, ma'am.
11681
11682We, as I said, presented -- you know,
11683
11684went over the ground again with the Attorney General, either that day
11685or the next day.
11686
11687Prosecutors chimed in with their opinion of the
11688
11689evidence and the prospects for prosecution, which were that there
11690weren't any.
11691
11692And the Attorney General accepted that recommendation.
11693
11694Ms. Jackson Lee.
11695Mr. McCabe.
11696
11697Forgive me --
11698
11699I should say, ma'am, that this is not -- our view
11700
11701of the evidence was not just our view.
11702
11703We were in daily contact with
11704
11705the Department of Justice, at many levels, even occasionally at my
11706level, speaking to Mr. Toscas, or on some occasions with Mr. Carlin.
11707And it was their consistent view over that period of time that we were
11708not finding the evidence that we needed to base a charge upon.
11709Ms. Jackson Lee.
11710went there.
11711
11712I am very glad you, as we would say sometimes,
11713
11714And I'm just going to ask a brief repetition --
11715
11716Mr. McCabe.
11717
11718Sure.
11719COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
11720
11721171
11722
11723COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
11724
11725Ms. Jackson Lee.
11726Mr. McCabe.
11727
11728Yes.
11729
11730Ms. Jackson Lee.
11731"prosecutors."
11732
11733-- because that is crucial.
11734
11735You indicated, and you used the term
11736
11737Those are individuals, lawyers, that prosecute cases.
11738
11739Mr. McCabe.
11740
11741That's correct.
11742
11743Ms. Jackson Lee.
11744
11745And I'd like you to restate again that Mr. Comey
11746
11747did not walk from his office out to the place of announcement
11748singularly.
11749
11750You all, during the period of investigation, meaning the
11751
11752FBI officers, under the FBI, were engaged with prosecutors who were
11753looking at the same facts.
11754Mr. McCabe.
11755
11756Absolutely.
11757
11758Ms. Jackson Lee.
11759
11760Could you repeat again, out of that, what
11761
11762happened.
11763Mr. McCabe.
11764
11765So that process had been going on before I was
11766
11767involved in the case, and it continued during the course of my
11768involvement.
11769
11770We were interacting with the prosecutive team, and the
11771
11772Department of Justice, and the National Security division on a daily
11773basis.
11774
11775Their view of the facts and the evidence that we had managed
11776
11777to collect mirrored ours.
11778
11779There was no disagreement between us about
11780
11781the substance of the evidence.
11782
11783We had our disagreements and our
11784
11785friction points about strategy, and process, and things like that.
11786
11787But
11788
11789we were in agreement on our assessment of the case.
11790Now, the Department was taken by surprise on the morning of the
11791announcement, because Director Comey did not share, until about an hour
11792before the announcement, with them that he was going to take that step.
11793COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
11794
11795172
11796
11797COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
11798
11799So they were certainly surprised by that.
11800
11801But the substance of the
11802
11803case was not -- that was not a surprise to them.
11804Ms. Jackson Lee.
11805
11806And their surprise did not compel them to speak
11807
11808contrary to his statement, because the non-prosecution aspect of the
11809statement -- I think many of us were surprised -- but the
11810non-prosecution aspects of the statement they agreed with, the lawyers,
11811the DOJ -Mr. McCabe.
11812
11813They did.
11814
11815The people who had actually seen the
11816
11817evidence, who were down in the weeds on this case, all came to the same
11818conclusion.
11819
11820That is the conclusion the lawyers, and we recommended
11821
11822to the Attorney General and she accepted that conclusion.
11823Ms. Jackson Lee.
11824
11825Could you say in confidence that these
11826
11827individuals were not biased?
11828not biased.
11829
11830I had that line of reasoning before.
11831
11832But
11833
11834We're not called, we're not forced, we're not afraid,
11835
11836intimidated in making that decision.
11837Mr. McCabe.
11838
11839I am not aware of any bias that played a role in that
11840
11841decision.
11842Ms. Jackson Lee.
11843
11844I have just a few more questions that I would
11845
11846like to pursue on the line of these emails.
11847Former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani had repeatedly claimed on Foxx
11848News and other conservative outlets that active FBI agents were
11849surprised and disappointed by Comey's announcement not to charge
11850Hillary Clinton.
11851
11852Is this true as characterized in the public sphere?
11853
11854Are you aware of such sentiments within the FBI or your team?
11855true?
11856COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
11857
11858Is this
11859
11860173
11861
11862COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
11863
11864Mr. McCabe.
11865
11866I am not aware of those sentiments within the team.
11867
11868But I am aware that the outcome of the case was surprising, and maybe
11869frustrating to many people, including some of the people who work for
11870the FBI.
11871Ms. Jackson Lee.
11872Mr. McCabe.
11873
11874Was it that -- what was their surprise?
11875
11876I think, like many people around the country, they
11877
11878were surprised by the result in the case and the fact that we were not
11879recommending pursuing charges.
11880Ms. Jackson Lee.
11881Mr. McCabe.
11882
11883But in contrast to their surprise --
11884
11885These are --
11886
11887Ms. Jackson Lee.
11888
11889The individuals investigating, lawyers and
11890
11891otherwise, remain solid on the fact -Mr. McCabe.
11892
11893Absolutely.
11894
11895Ms. Jackson Lee.
11896Mr. McCabe.
11897
11898-- there was nothing there there?
11899
11900Absolutely.
11901
11902When I say surprise, I'm talking about
11903
11904people who heard the Director's statement on July 5 and were frustrated
11905with that result, not people who were engaged in the investigation or
11906the prosecutors across the street at the Department of Justice.
11907Ms. Jackson Lee.
11908
11909And, therefore, continuing his comments,
11910
11911Mr. Giuliani, he said there was a revolution going on inside the FBI
11912about the original conclusion.
11913
11914Are you aware of such a revolution?
11915
11916Do you hear concerns from agents both on and off the team expressing
11917dissatisfaction?
11918Mr. McCabe.
11919
11920I am not aware of a revolution.
11921
11922As I said, there
11923
11924was certainly FBI personnel who were surprised and maybe frustrated
11925COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
11926
11927COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
11928
11929by that result.
11930
11931174
11932
11933Director Comey spent a lot of time, in the months
11934
11935following his announcement, you know, in visits to field offices and
11936interactions with retired agents' groups, and things like that,
11937answering a lot of questions about why we had done what we had done.
11938Ms. Jackson Lee.
11939
11940Continuing that line of reasoning, Mr. Comey
11941
11942subsequently, in short order, or near the fall -- October surprise,
11943subsequently had letters sent to the Congress about reopening the
11944investigation.
11945Mr. McCabe.
11946
11947Uh-huh.
11948
11949Ms. Jackson Lee.
11950
11951It was said by Giuliani that this was from
11952
11953pressure from FBI agents.
11954Mr. McCabe.
11955
11956Is that true?
11957
11958Not to my knowledge, ma'am, no.
11959
11960Ms. Jackson Lee.
11961
11962Do you have any facts about the decision-making
11963
11964on those letters?
11965Mr. McCabe.
11966
11967I do not.
11968
11969I am aware of the facts that led up to
11970
11971the meeting in which Director Comey was briefed on and started the
11972process to make that decision that ultimately led to the letter that
11973you've referred to.
11974
11975But I was not a participant in that meeting.
11976
11977And
11978
11979shortly after that meeting, I was no longer involved in the case.
11980Ms. Jackson Lee.
11981of Mr. Kallstrom.
11982
11983Let me jump quickly to a gentleman by the name
11984
11985First of all, we know that I think Mr. Strzok and
11986
11987Ms. Page previously on -- let me just make it general, and then I'll
11988get to him.
11989Mr. McCabe.
11990
11991Uh-huh.
11992
11993Ms. Jackson Lee.
11994
11995When FBI agents have personal opinions or
11996COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
11997
11998175
11999
12000COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
12001
12002political opinions, if it's just a general case, and they have a
12003personal opinion, or they have a religious opinion about a case, would
12004you make the point that, again, that is an example that their personal
12005opinions, you have confidence, would not impact them investigating,
12006you know, a case that's dealing with interstate abortions that may come
12007into the criminal element, for example, and there are people who have
12008religious beliefs on that.
12009
12010You have confidence that the FBI generally
12011
12012are taught, learned, and understand that they keep their personal
12013opinions out of investigations?
12014Mr. McCabe.
12015
12016I am confident that FBI -- the men and women of the
12017
12018FBI keep their personal opinions out of their work.
12019Mr. Meadows.
12020
12021We're going to stop the clock there, Sheila.
12022
12023They've called votes.
12024
12025And so we'll resume, and certainly it's up to
12026
12027you how you want to resume right after that.
12028ahead and take a break right now.
12029
12030But we're going to go
12031
12032There's about 6 minutes left.
12033
12034For planning purposes, we're going to take a break.
12035us reconvening before about 5:15.
12036everybody.
12037
12038I don't see
12039
12040So you can take a break for
12041
12042So if we could do that.
12043
12044Mr. Johnson of Georgia.
12045Mr. Meadows.
12046Mr. Brower.
12047Mr. Meadows.
12048
12049Is this the last round?
12050
12051I think we have two more rounds.
12052Two more rounds.
12053We'll try to so speed it up as best we can.
12054
12055you for your patience.
12056
12057But 5:15 at the earliest.
12058
12059[Recess.]
12060
12061COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
12062
12063Thank
12064
12065176
12066
12067COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
12068
12069[5:27 p.m.]
12070Mr. Meadows.
12071
12072So we're going to go back on the record.
12073
12074And just
12075
12076so the record reflects the accuracy, there was about 14 minutes left
12077for the minority to continue to ask questions.
12078here.
12079
12080Their members are not
12081
12082So, in the interest of getting everybody out of here, they've
12083
12084agreed to let our 30-minute block go now, and then we'll pick up and
12085let them finish up their 14 minutes, if that's okay with everybody else.
12086And so the gentleman from Texas, Mr. Ratcliffe.
12087Mr. Ratcliffe.
12088
12089All right.
12090
12091Mr. Deputy Director, when I left off my questioning before, I kind
12092of went through this long list of things that were unique or different
12093about this case, challenging, frustrating, and kind of went through
12094that.
12095
12096I'm not going to go through that list again.
12097But the reason I was going through it was, early on in Mr. Gowdy's
12098
12099questioning, he'd asked you a question, and you said -- his question
12100was, had her last name not been "Clinton," would you have handled the
12101investigation the same way, and your answer was "yes."
12102
12103Is that still
12104
12105your answer?
12106Mr. McCabe.
12107
12108Yes.
12109
12110I mean, I took from his question that he meant
12111
12112if it had been anybody other than Ms. Clinton, would we have handled
12113it -- it's hard to imagine a fact scenario that would have been someone
12114other -- so, theoretically, if we had been investigating a different
12115former Secretary of State who was not Ms. Clinton, would we have
12116approached it the same way?
12117Mr. Ratcliffe.
12118
12119Okay.
12120
12121And, yes, I think we would have.
12122I appreciate that clarification.
12123
12124COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
12125
12126177
12127
12128COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
12129
12130But what I also didn't understand was, when you said that, were
12131you talking about the FBI or were you talking about the FBI and Main
12132Justice?
12133
12134Do you think the Department of Justice would have handled
12135
12136this investigation the same way had it not been Hillary Clinton?
12137Mr. McCabe.
12138
12139I was speaking for the FBI.
12140
12141I can't speak for the
12142
12143Department of Justice.
12144Mr. Ratcliffe.
12145
12146Okay.
12147
12148I want to go back very quickly through the timeline.
12149
12150We've gone
12151
12152through the different events as they happened and the tarmac meeting,
12153the highly unusual tarmac meeting, between Loretta Lynch, the Attorney
12154General, and Bill Clinton.
12155
12156It was late June.
12157
12158Then July 2nd was the
12159
12160interview of Hillary Clinton, and July 5th was the press conference,
12161correct?
12162Mr. McCabe.
12163
12164That sounds right.
12165
12166Mr. Ratcliffe.
12167
12168Okay.
12169
12170In between that, in between the
12171
12172interview, you said on the interview that you were open to her changing
12173her mind.
12174
12175Congressman Buck asked you some questions about that.
12176
12177That
12178
12179if her testimony had been different, you may have changed your opinions
12180in the case, correct?
12181Mr. McCabe.
12182her mind.
12183
12184I don't think I said we were open to her changing
12185
12186I think what -- or at least what I meant to say was we were
12187
12188open to -- we kept our minds open as to what -- whatever might happen
12189in the interview, we would handle accordingly and react accordingly.
12190Mr. Ratcliffe.
12191
12192Was there any discussion there that, had her
12193
12194testimony been different than what you anticipated, that there would
12195COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
12196
12197178
12198
12199COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
12200
12201been a problem, given the fact that central witnesses to proving the
12202case against her, her lawyers, were in the room at that point?
12203Mr. McCabe.
12204
12205I don't remember discussing that.
12206
12207Mr. Ratcliffe.
12208
12209Okay.
12210
12211So, after that, you mentioned that somewhere between Secretary
12212Clinton's interview and the press conference that there was a meeting
12213with the Attorney General.
12214Mr. McCabe.
12215
12216There was a meeting with the Attorney General.
12217
12218It
12219
12220was either the day of Director Comey's announcement on the 5th or the
12221day after.
12222
12223I don't remember.
12224
12225Mr. Ratcliffe.
12226Mr. McCabe.
12227
12228The day of or the day after his announcement?
12229
12230That's correct.
12231
12232Mr. Ratcliffe.
12233
12234Okay.
12235
12236That's what I'm trying to figure out.
12237
12238Was she briefed about Hillary Clinton's interview and the results of
12239that before the press conference?
12240Mr. McCabe.
12241
12242I'm not aware of that.
12243
12244Mr. Ratcliffe.
12245
12246Okay.
12247
12248One of the things that we've talked about a lot is this May 2nd
12249memo or email that contains Director Comey's draft opinions that later
12250were stated during the July 5th press conference.
12251
12252And you've answered
12253
12254a number of questions today talking about the issue of intent, and I
12255asked you a question you didn't get a chance to answer, which was:
12256focus had been on intent.
12257
12258The
12259
12260I think you gave testimony earlier that there
12261
12262was no smoking-gun evidence of intent.
12263The statute very clearly says and the memo very clearly relates
12264COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
12265
12266COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
12267
12268179
12269
12270to the fact that what the FBI was looking at was a potential violation
12271of a Federal statute that makes it a felony to mishandle classified
12272information either intentionally or in a grossly negligent way.
12273And so my question to you is, when were you advised that evidence
12274of gross negligence was not what you were looking for, you had to find
12275evidence of intent?
12276Mr. McCabe.
12277
12278I don't believe I was ever advised in that way.
12279
12280Mr. Ratcliffe.
12281
12282Okay.
12283
12284So was the FBI looking for evidence of
12285
12286gross negligence?
12287Mr. McCabe.
12288
12289Of course.
12290
12291Mr. Ratcliffe.
12292
12293Because it would satisfy the elements of the
12294
12295statute.
12296Mr. McCabe.
12297
12298Yeah.
12299
12300We were looking for any indicators of what
12301
12302Ms. Clinton or anybody else involved, what their state of mind would
12303have been around those events.
12304Mr. Ratcliffe.
12305
12306Okay.
12307
12308So the draft statement on May 2nd, which became the actual
12309statement in large part on July the 5th -- and I say "in large part"
12310because the conclusions remain the same but there were parts of it that
12311changed.
12312
12313And I want to ask you about that, about anything you can
12314
12315recall about the discussion and the reason that parts of this draft
12316statement were changed.
12317Do you have any recollection as to why this statement on May
123182nd -- "There's evidence to support a conclusion that Secretary Clinton
12319and others used the private email server in a manner that was grossly
12320COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
12321
12322180
12323
12324COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
12325
12326negligent with respect to the handling of classified
12327information" -- that was changed in the press conference and in
12328subsequent testimony by Director Comey to be "extremely careless."
12329
12330Do
12331
12332you know why that change was made?
12333Mr. McCabe.
12334
12335I do not.
12336
12337I don't know if you're referring to the
12338
12339change suggested in the draft that's been discussed widely?
12340Mr. Ratcliffe.
12341Mr. McCabe.
12342
12343Yeah.
12344
12345I do not.
12346
12347Mr. Ratcliffe.
12348
12349I don't know who made the --
12350
12351You don't remember a discussion about, well, we
12352
12353need to change this from "grossly negligent" to just "extremely
12354careless" because there's a reason for that or a significance behind
12355that?
12356Mr. McCabe.
12357
12358I don't.
12359
12360What I remember is having many
12361
12362conversations with Director Comey and the rest of the team around, as
12363I said before, what we thought of the case, what we thought of the
12364evidence.
12365
12366We had conversations about the statement, and so I remember
12367
12368generally how those conversations went.
12369
12370I don't remember the specific
12371
12372change of that language.
12373Mr. Ratcliffe.
12374
12375Okay.
12376
12377One of the other things in the draft statement was, "The sheer
12378volume of information that was properly classified as Secret at the
12379time it was discussed on the email -- that is, excluding the
12380up-classified emails -- supports an inference that the participates
12381were grossly negligent in their handling of that information."
12382was changed.
12383COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
12384
12385That
12386
12387181
12388
12389COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
12390
12391Mr. McCabe.
12392
12393Can you show me where you are?
12394
12395Mr. Ratcliffe.
12396Mr. McCabe.
12397
12398I do.
12399
12400Mr. Ratcliffe.
12401Mr. McCabe.
12402
12403Yeah.
12404
12405Is that it?
12406
12407Exhibit 1?
12408
12409Yeah, it's marked as exhibit 1.
12410
12411Yes.
12412
12413Mr. Ratcliffe.
12414
12415So, on the third page, under the subheading
12416
12417"That's what we have done.
12418Mr. McCabe.
12419
12420It's on -- have you got the document?
12421
12422Now let me tell you what --
12423
12424Okay.
12425
12426Mr. Ratcliffe.
12427
12428-- we found."
12429
12430that first paragraph below that.
12431
12432And so the first question was in
12433
12434And the next question that I've just
12435
12436asked you about is referring to "the sheer volume of information
12437supports an inference that the participants were grossly negligent."
12438Do you see that?
12439Mr. McCabe.
12440
12441I'm reading it just now, if you'll give me a second.
12442
12443Yes, I see it.
12444Mr. Ratcliffe.
12445
12446Director Comey testified before this committee
12447
12448that the volume of classified emails was not great enough to support
12449that finding.
12450
12451Do you know why that was changed from this draft to what
12452
12453his testimony under oath was?
12454Mr. McCabe.
12455
12456I do not.
12457
12458Mr. Ratcliffe.
12459
12460Okay.
12461
12462The next page, top of the next page, in that paragraph, third line
12463down, it says -- or the start of the fourth line down:
12464
12465"We do assess
12466
12467that hostile actors gained access to the private email accounts of
12468individuals with whom Secretary Clinton was in regular contact from
12469COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
12470
12471182
12472
12473COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
12474
12475her private account.
12476
12477We also assess that Secretary Clinton's use of
12478
12479a private email domain was both known by a large number of people and
12480readily apparent.
12481
12482Given that combination of factors, we assess it is
12483
12484reasonably likely that hostile actors gained access to Secretary
12485Clinton's private email account."
12486In his subsequent statements on July the 5th at the press
12487conference and in his sworn testimony, that was changed to say not that
12488it was reasonably likely but that it was possible.
12489
12490Do you know what
12491
12492precipitated that change?
12493Mr. McCabe.
12494
12495I remember discussing that topic with our cyber
12496
12497folks to get an understanding of essentially what sort of activity we
12498had seen, and
12499Mr. Ratcliffe.
12500Mr. McCabe.
12501
12502I'm sorry.
12503
12504That's okay.
12505
12506I'll back up.
12507
12508So our cyber folks discussed with us, to the best of my
12509recollection,
12510.
12511Mr. Ratcliffe.
12512
12513Okay.
12514
12515In the course of changing all this, do you
12516
12517recall discussions about the difference between gross negligence and
12518extreme carelessness?
12519Mr. McCabe.
12520
12521I do not.
12522
12523Mr. Ratcliffe.
12524
12525Okay.
12526
12527And I asked you before about
12528
12529.
12530
12531have much recollection other than he was a witness.
12532case, that's fine.
12533
12534You didn't seem to
12535And if that's the
12536
12537I was just wondering something about the
12538COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
12539
12540183
12541
12542COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
12543
12544circumstances under which he was granted immunity.
12545to me.
12546
12547That was unusual
12548
12549That didn't make sense, as a former prosecutor.
12550
12551And I wondered
12552
12553if you have enough of a recollection to answer those questions.
12554Mr. McCabe.
12555PRN?
12556
12557I remember generally
12558
12559's role in -- was it
12560
12561Platte River Networks?
12562Mr. Ratcliffe.
12563Mr. McCabe.
12564
12565Yeah.
12566
12567And that he had some -- to the best of my
12568
12569recollection, he explained that he had not taken some action that he
12570had been ordered or hired to do until sometime later, and that was
12571something that he was concerned about becoming exposed, or something
12572along those lines.
12573Mr. Ratcliffe.
12574Mr. McCabe.
12575
12576Okay.
12577
12578He ultimately explained to us kind of the process
12579
12580that he used on the computers, which was -Mr. Ratcliffe.
12581
12582And did that make sense do you?
12583
12584Do you have a
12585
12586recollection that it made sense?
12587Mr. McCabe.
12588
12589What he did?
12590
12591Mr. Ratcliffe.
12592Mr. McCabe.
12593
12594Yeah.
12595
12596I couldn't tell you off the top of my head right now.
12597
12598I can't remember with clarity what he said he did.
12599Mr. Ratcliffe.
12600Mr. McCabe.
12601
12602Well, let me just, real quickly --
12603
12604If you'd like me to review the document, I'm happy
12605
12606to do it.
12607Mr. Ratcliffe.
12608
12609Well, let me -- so I'll just relate it, and maybe
12610
12611you can answer it or you can't.
12612COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
12613
12614184
12615
12616COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
12617
12618Mr. McCabe.
12619
12620Okay.
12621
12622Mr. Ratcliffe.
12623
12624In his first interview with the FBI, he told FBI
12625
12626agents that he had no knowledge about the preservation order or
12627subpoenas from Congress or from Chairman Gowdy relating to the Clinton
12628emails.
12629Mr. McCabe.
12630
12631Okay.
12632
12633Mr. Ratcliffe.
12634180-degree turn.
12635
12636Three months later, he came in and he did a
12637
12638He admitted, in fact, that he was aware of that, of
12639
12640the preservation order, and that it meant that he should not disturb
12641the Clinton emails.
12642And former Director Comey testified as much and acknowledged that
12643he had lied to the FBI.
12644
12645And that was the premise for which I asked,
12646
12647well, why would he be granted immunity, having lied to the FBI?
12648
12649And
12650
12651I gave you those questions as well.
12652But what hasn't made sense to me, and I've gone back and looked
12653at this, and maybe you have a recollection, but he's the individual
12654that used BleachBit to delete those emails.
12655Mr. McCabe.
12656
12657Do you recall that?
12658
12659I do.
12660
12661Mr. Ratcliffe.
12662
12663Okay.
12664
12665But what the records show is that -- what
12666
12667he told the FBI was that he used BleachBit to destroy the email records
12668right after being told in a March 2015 conference call with Cheryl Mills
12669and David Kendall, Ms. Clinton's lawyers at the time, about the need
12670to preserve the emails because of the subpoena and the preservation
12671order.
12672And so that's what doesn't make any sense to me, why a contractor,
12673COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
12674
12675185
12676
12677COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
12678
12679being expressly told by a client to preserve the emails, would disobey
12680the client's wishes, risk not just his job and his reputation and the
12681reputation of his company but also risk going to prison, risk his own
12682personal liability, without any financial motive for gain whatsoever
12683and would do that.
12684Do you recall any discussion at the FBI about that set of facts
12685and those actions by
12686Mr. McCabe.
12687
12688?
12689
12690Not specifically, sir.
12691
12692As I mentioned, I remember
12693
12694very generally discussing the fact that
12695
12696was someone who was
12697
12698important to us to know kind of technically what he had done on the
12699system, be it the server or the laptops.
12700
12701I remember some discrepancy
12702
12703with what he told us initially and then ultimately admitted to.
12704
12705And
12706
12707I remember very generally that the reason for that was he was concerned
12708about not having followed an earlier direction by the folks who had
12709hired him.
12710Mr. Ratcliffe.
12711Mr. McCabe.
12712
12713That's my recollection.
12714
12715Mr. Ratcliffe.
12716Mr. McCabe.
12717Mr. Meadows.
12718questioning.
12719
12720Fair enough.
12721
12722I appreciate that.
12723
12724Yes, sir.
12725So let me follow up a little bit with some of John's
12726
12727And I guess, just for the record, because there's a whole
12728
12729lot that gets intimated in terms of motives and where they are, there
12730is no one who holds law enforcement in higher regard in Congress than
12731me.
12732
12733I've got dear friends who truly are sheriffs, Democrat sheriffs,
12734
12735that I trust implicitly, that actually -- other than campaign time,
12736COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
12737
12738186
12739
12740COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
12741
12742we actually have lunch.
12743
12744We don't let any pictures be taken together,
12745
12746because it would hurt them more than it would hurt me.
12747
12748And so I want
12749
12750you to know that.
12751And so it's getting to the bottom of this, which I think is indeed
12752a black eye at times on the Department of Justice or the FBI.
12753
12754And I
12755
12756do believe that there are people within your agency who believe things
12757should have been done differently.
12758
12759And that's an informed decision.
12760
12761And so I share that not to cast a large blanket across "all of
12762the FBI feels this way."
12763
12764In fact, many of your agents came to me early
12765
12766on when President Trump put the freeze on and shared with me how that
12767was going to actually hurt their ability to recruit new agents, and
12768I personality went to the President to say that we needed to lift that.
12769And so I just want the context -- and the other part of it is
12770campaign contributions does not necessarily make you biased.
12771
12772And you
12773
12774can follow the video from 5 years of me asking questions of witnesses.
12775That's not one area that I believe that we should focus on, because
12776it's not an indication of character.
12777I do want some clarification on several things that seem to be
12778inconsistent.
12779
12780So, to follow up on what John said, you know, when we
12781
12782look at "extremely careless" versus "grossly negligent," tell me, from
12783your point of view, what's the bright line?
12784
12785How do we go from
12786
12787"extremely careless" to "grossly negligent" and back and forth?
12788And I guess you said that you didn't have any conversations with
12789Director Comey about that.
12790Mr. McCabe.
12791
12792Is that correct?
12793
12794I don't remember having a specific conversation with
12795COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
12796
12797187
12798
12799COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
12800
12801Director Comey.
12802Mr. Meadows.
12803
12804So who would have?
12805
12806Who would have?
12807
12808Because,
12809
12810obviously, he valued your opinion.
12811Mr. McCabe.
12812
12813Yep.
12814
12815Mr. Meadows.
12816Mr. McCabe.
12817
12818You say you're his closest confidant.
12819I don't know that I would say that.
12820
12821I'm one of his
12822
12823closest -Mr. Meadows.
12824
12825One of his closest.
12826
12827So if it's not you, then who
12828
12829would he have had that discussion with to change that, to help me
12830understand the bright line?
12831Mr. McCabe.
12832
12833Yeah.
12834
12835Mr. Meadows.
12836
12837Okay.
12838
12839I mean -You don't know.
12840
12841What would be the pool of the three or four people that he would
12842seek advice?
12843
12844Is it the three or four people on the email?
12845
12846Mr. McCabe.
12847
12848It's the people on this team.
12849
12850Those people who the
12851
12852email was shared with, those are the people you should talk to.
12853Mr. Meadows.
12854be?
12855
12856All right.
12857
12858And, for the record, who would those
12859
12860If you were me and you were -- you're saying that you don't recall
12861
12862talking to him about it.
12863
12864Who would be the other two most likely people
12865
12866for me to talk to?
12867Mr. McCabe.
12868
12869And, to be clear, sir, I will tell you the names of
12870
12871the people who I think were among that group that discussed all sorts
12872of these issues.
12873
12874We had many, many discussions.
12875
12876I just can't sit here
12877
12878years later -Mr. Meadows.
12879
12880I'm talking about the drafting of a memo.
12881COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
12882
12883You know
12884
12885188
12886
12887COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
12888
12889where I'm going with this, so -Mr. McCabe.
12890Mr. Meadows.
12891Mr. McCabe.
12892
12893About this particular change in language.
12894Right.
12895All of these things were discussed with that group
12896
12897that I think I identified earlier this morning.
12898
12899So that would be
12900
12901myself, Jim Rybicki -Mr. Meadows.
12902
12903But you said you didn't talk to him about the change
12904
12905from -Mr. McCabe.
12906
12907I didn't say I didn't talk to him about it.
12908
12909I don't remember talking to him about it.
12910
12911I said
12912
12913I don't have a specific
12914
12915recollection of the Director and I discussing the difference between
12916"grossly negligent" -Mr. Meadows.
12917
12918Okay.
12919
12920Do you have a recollection of anybody else
12921
12922talking to him about that?
12923Mr. McCabe.
12924Mr. Meadows.
12925Mr. McCabe.
12926Mr. Meadows.
12927
12928About that specific change?
12929All right.
12930
12931I do not.
12932
12933So what's the bright line?
12934
12935The difference between those two concepts?
12936Yeah.
12937
12938Since you're charged with investigating,
12939
12940what's the bright line?
12941Mr. McCabe.
12942
12943Yeah.
12944
12945I don't think there's a huge difference
12946
12947between them.
12948Mr. Meadows.
12949
12950So if you're before the Supreme Court, you can't
12951
12952answer what the bright line is?
12953
12954Because they would ask the same
12955
12956question, what's the bright line between "extremely careless" and
12957"grossly negligent"?
12958COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
12959
12960189
12961
12962COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
12963
12964Mr. McCabe.
12965Mr. Meadows.
12966Mr. McCabe.
12967Mr. Meadows.
12968
12969I don't think there's a bright line between the two.
12970So it's a judgment call.
12971That's correct.
12972So you're saying Director Comey made a judgment
12973
12974call to put it in the memo, to change it.
12975Mr. McCabe.
12976Mr. Meadows.
12977
12978I think he did.
12979Okay.
12980
12981So you mention that you didn't talk to anybody about the
12982"extremely careless" and "grossly negligent," but you did go and talk
12983about the cyber side of that.
12984
12985So why would you talk to cyber experts
12986
12987about the changes there and what John just talked about and not the
12988"extremely careless" to "grossly negligent"?
12989
12990Why do you recall one
12991
12992and not the other?
12993Mr. McCabe.
12994
12995To be clear, I did not say that I did not discuss
12996
12997this with Director Comey.
12998
12999I participated in many discussions about
13000
13001many things -Mr. Meadows.
13002Mr. McCabe.
13003Mr. Meadows.
13004
13005So you did discuss it?
13006I don't have a clear recollection of discussing -Okay.
13007
13008Do you have any recollection of discussing
13009
13010it?
13011Mr. McCabe.
13012Mr. Meadows.
13013
13014That edit?
13015"Grossly negligent" between "extremely careless."
13016
13017Any recollection?
13018Mr. McCabe.
13019Mr. Meadows.
13020
13021I do not.
13022
13023I do not.
13024
13025Because you said not clear.
13026COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
13027
13028190
13029
13030COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
13031
13032Ms. Anderson.
13033Mr. Meadows.
13034
13035I think we're covered this ground.
13036Well, we haven't covered it yet.
13037
13038So let's go on
13039
13040a little bit further.
13041You're saying -- so why did you talk to the cyber expert on that
13042issue within the memo and not this?
13043Mr. McCabe.
13044
13045I talked to many people about many issues during the
13046
13047course of this investigation.
13048Mr. Meadows.
13049
13050And you can recall those, but you can't recall this
13051
13052one?
13053Mr. McCabe.
13054
13055That's correct.
13056
13057Mr. Meadows.
13058All right.
13059
13060Okay.
13061
13062So let me go on a little bit further, because I think
13063
13064probably the other issue that I have is we have a redaction.
13065obviously that the person redacted.
13066Counsel.
13067
13068And it's
13069
13070It was the Office of General
13071
13072According to your testimony earlier, it would probably be
13073
13074a rank-and-file attorney.
13075the policy?
13076
13077Is that correct?
13078
13079That that may be part of
13080
13081Is that what you said?
13082
13083Mr. McCabe.
13084
13085I'm not sure I know what redaction you're referring
13086
13087to.
13088Mr. Meadows.
13089
13090Okay.
13091
13092When we talked about the memo originally,
13093
13094and there was a redacted name on there -Mr. McCabe.
13095Mr. Meadows.
13096
13097Oh --
13098
13099Ms. Anderson.
13100Mr. Meadows.
13101
13102-- and you said who was -You're talking about Deposition Exhibit 2?
13103Yeah.
13104
13105Yeah.
13106
13107COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
13108
13109191
13110
13111COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
13112
13113So would that be somebody of your counsel's level that we would
13114typically redact on there?
13115Mr. McCabe.
13116
13117Not of this counsel's.
13118
13119Of somebody beneath her
13120
13121level.
13122Mr. Meadows.
13123softball.
13124
13125Okay.
13126
13127I assumed that was the answer.
13128
13129It was a
13130
13131So at what level would you redact it?
13132
13133Mr. McCabe.
13134
13135I don't do these redactions.
13136
13137My understanding of
13138
13139our approach to these redactions is anybody beneath the SES level, we
13140typically redact their names.
13141Mr. Meadows.
13142
13143All right.
13144
13145So let me go on a little bit further,
13146
13147because we talked about the -- you gave the exact testimony of where
13148you talked about laptops and the frustration.
13149
13150And you gave the example
13151
13152of that frustration, because you were personally involved in that.
13153Mr. McCabe.
13154Mr. Meadows.
13155
13156Yes.
13157You said at that particular time there were other
13158
13159witnesses that were frustrated with the inability to actually either
13160gather information or compel a witness that would probably be better
13161to talk to with that frustration level, I think was your exact quote.
13162Mr. McCabe.
13163Mr. Meadows.
13164Mr. McCabe.
13165Mr. Meadows.
13166Mr. McCabe.
13167to talk to on that.
13168
13169Yes.
13170Who would those witnesses be?
13171Bill Priestap.
13172Okay.
13173
13174Who else?
13175
13176Peter Strzok.
13177Possibly
13178
13179Probably the two best people for you
13180.
13181
13182But Peter Strzok would have
13183
13184had the majority of the interaction with DOJ at that line level where
13185COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
13186
13187192
13188
13189COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
13190
13191those things were happening.
13192Mr. Meadows.
13193
13194Okay.
13195
13196And Peter Strzok was bought in to the
13197
13198investigative team as lead investigator?
13199
13200I've read reports.
13201
13202I don't
13203
13204know if that's the case.
13205Mr. McCabe.
13206Mr. Meadows.
13207Mr. McCabe.
13208Mr. Meadows.
13209Mr. McCabe.
13210
13211Yeah.
13212
13213That's not really a term --
13214
13215You can't believe everything you read in the paper.
13216I'm aware of that.
13217
13218That's not really --
13219
13220So was he the lead investigator or not?
13221That's not really a term that we use.
13222
13223He was in
13224
13225a supervisory -Mr. Meadows.
13226
13227Was he the go-to person, the supervisory person
13228
13229over the investigation?
13230Mr. McCabe.
13231
13232He was instrumental to the investigation.
13233
13234He was
13235
13236involved in -Mr. Meadows.
13237Mr. McCabe.
13238
13239So what term do you use?
13240Well, he came over as a temporarily deployed ASAC
13241
13242from the Washington field office.
13243promoted to a section chief.
13244Mr. Meadows.
13245
13246While on the investigation, he was
13247
13248So he was responsible for a section of --
13249
13250And he was the lead investigator why?
13251
13252thought he had counterintelligence -Mr. McCabe.
13253Mr. Meadows.
13254Mr. McCabe.
13255Mr. Meadows.
13256Mr. McCabe.
13257
13258Experience.
13259-- expertise.
13260Yes, sir.
13261That he's a Russia expert.
13262He's a counterintelligence expert.
13263COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
13264
13265Because I
13266
13267193
13268
13269COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
13270
13271Mr. Meadows.
13272
13273Yeah.
13274
13275And so the reports of him being a Russian
13276
13277expert are not accurate?
13278Mr. McCabe.
13279
13280I mean, he certainly knows a lot about Russia.
13281
13282He
13283
13284knows a lot about -Mr. Meadows.
13285
13286So he was bought in because of that.
13287
13288That's why
13289
13290he was picked.
13291Mr. McCabe.
13292
13293He was doing counterintelligence work at the
13294
13295Washington field office and had a good reputation for doing that work.
13296Mr. Meadows.
13297
13298Okay.
13299
13300And you mentioned just a few minutes ago that you were not aware
13301of the Attorney General being briefed on the Hillary Rodham Clinton
13302interview prior to Director Comey making his press statement.
13303
13304Is that
13305
13306correct?
13307Mr. McCabe.
13308Mr. Meadows.
13309
13310I was not present for that -- for a briefing -No, but you said you were not aware of her being
13311
13312briefed.
13313Mr. McCabe.
13314Mr. Meadows.
13315Mr. McCabe.
13316
13317I don't know if she was briefed or not.
13318So who would know that?
13319Somebody at the Department of Justice.
13320
13321George
13322
13323Toscas -Mr. Meadows.
13324
13325So there's no one within the FBI -- you know, you're
13326
13327Director Comey's closest person.
13328Mr. McCabe.
13329
13330Yes.
13331
13332Mr. Meadows.
13333
13334And you are not sure whether Director Comey briefed
13335
13336the Attorney General prior to a press conference.
13337COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
13338
13339194
13340
13341COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
13342
13343Mr. McCabe.
13344
13345I do not -- no.
13346
13347Hold on just a second.
13348
13349Director Comey did have contact with the Department prior to the
13350press conference, immediately prior, within an hour before the press
13351conference took place.
13352
13353I don't know if Attorney General Lynch received
13354
13355a briefing of the results of the Clinton interview.
13356Mr. Meadows.
13357
13358All right.
13359
13360Fair enough.
13361
13362So when the original investigation -- when did it conclude?
13363Clinton investigation.
13364
13365Let me be clear about it.
13366
13367The
13368
13369The Clinton email
13370
13371investigation, when did it conclude?
13372Mr. McCabe.
13373
13374I would say with the Attorney General's acceptance
13375
13376of the recommendation, not -Mr. Meadows.
13377Mr. McCabe.
13378Mr. Meadows.
13379Mr. McCabe.
13380
13381So sometime in July?
13382
13383Is that --
13384
13385Yeah, although we were -Of what year?
13386We continued to do kind of -- the team continued to
13387
13388work on administrative work on the file, things of that nature, but
13389no more investigative activity.
13390Mr. Meadows.
13391
13392Administrative work in what sense?
13393
13394Characterize
13395
13396that for me, if you could.
13397Mr. McCabe.
13398
13399So we began to receive a number of FOIA requests.
13400
13401We -Mr. Meadows.
13402Mr. McCabe.
13403Mr. Meadows.
13404
13405Oh, so no further investigation.
13406No, sir.
13407All right.
13408
13409So no further investigation, and yet
13410
13411something came forward that reopened the investigation, I guess, in
13412COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
13413
13414COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
13415
13416195
13417
13418October, according -Mr. McCabe.
13419Mr. Meadows.
13420
13421That's correct.
13422And so that came from the New York field office,
13423
13424I guess is where the report came from?
13425Mr. McCabe.
13426Mr. Meadows.
13427
13428That's correct.
13429All right.
13430
13431And then we closed it out a few days
13432
13433later after the emails were reviewed.
13434
13435Is that correct?
13436
13437So we had an
13438
13439investigation, it closed, we opened it back up, and it closed again
13440within a few days.
13441Mr. McCabe.
13442Mr. Meadows.
13443Mr. McCabe.
13444
13445Yeah.
13446
13447That's --
13448
13449Do you know how many days?
13450No, because that's at the point that I was no longer
13451
13452involved in the investigation.
13453Mr. Meadows.
13454
13455Well, so tell me about your recusal.
13456
13457When did you
13458
13459recuse yourself?
13460Mr. McCabe.
13461Mr. Meadows.
13462Mr. McCabe.
13463
13464That first week in November.
13465November 1st is -I don't know if it was the 1st or the 2nd, but it's
13466
13467a few days -Mr. Meadows.
13468
13469Okay.
13470
13471voluntarily recusal.
13472Mr. McCabe.
13473
13474And your earlier testimony said it was a
13475
13476Is that correct?
13477
13478It was voluntary, but I did it at Director Comey's
13479
13480request.
13481Mr. Meadows.
13482
13483Okay.
13484
13485Why would Director Comey ask you to recuse
13486
13487yourself?
13488COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
13489
13490196
13491
13492COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
13493
13494Mr. McCabe.
13495
13496Director Comey thought that it would be best for me
13497
13498to recuse myself from the case at that point because of the public
13499interest or the -- I don't know if that's the right way to describe
13500it -- because of all the interest that had been created by two Wall
13501Street Journal articles about me that had appeared in the week or two
13502prior.
13503Mr. Meadows.
13504
13505But your earlier testimony said that the FBI does
13506
13507not make decisions based on political ramifications.
13508your testimony.
13509
13510I mean, that was
13511
13512And so --
13513
13514Mr. McCabe.
13515Mr. Meadows.
13516
13517Yes.
13518-- now you're saying that you recused yourself
13519
13520because of politics.
13521Mr. McCabe.
13522Mr. Meadows.
13523
13524No, sir, that is what I'm saying.
13525So Director Comey asked you to recuse yourself
13526
13527because of politics.
13528Mr. McCabe.
13529
13530Director Comey was concerned that the focus on the
13531
13532allegations that the Wall Street Journal published about my wife and
13533her run for State senate created a distraction or an appearance that
13534he thought would be negative for the case.
13535I did not agree with that assessment.
13536Mr. Meadows.
13537Mr. McCabe.
13538Mr. Meadows.
13539
13540I did not agree with --
13541
13542So you didn't have a conflict.
13543No, sir.
13544
13545I did not have a conflict.
13546
13547And so why would he ask you to recuse yourself after
13548
13549an investigation is over?
13550Mr. McCabe.
13551
13552I think Director Comey did not feel it was necessary
13553COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
13554
13555197
13556
13557COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
13558
13559for me to participate in the decisions that he was making about
13560reopening the case -Mr. Meadows.
13561
13562But those decisions had already been made on --
13563
13564Mr. McCabe.
13565
13566Am I going to have an opportunity to answer your
13567
13568question?
13569Mr. Meadows.
13570the case happen?
13571Mr. McCabe.
13572Mr. Meadows.
13573
13574Yes, you will.
13575
13576But when did the decision to open
13577
13578What day?
13579I don't know, sir.
13580Okay.
13581
13582Mr. McCabe.
13583
13584You mean the reopen in October?
13585
13586Mr. Meadows.
13587
13588Right, the reopen in October.
13589
13590Mr. McCabe.
13591Mr. Meadows.
13592
13593I was not a part of that decision.
13594Okay.
13595
13596So it was the reopening of the case that he
13597
13598felt like he needed to recuse yourself then?
13599some clarity.
13600
13601I'm just trying to get
13602
13603I mean --
13604
13605Mr. McCabe.
13606
13607I would love to give you clarity, sir, but it's going
13608
13609to take a few more words than the ones you've allowed me.
13610Mr. Meadows.
13611
13612I'm from North Carolina.
13613
13614My humble apologies for
13615
13616interrupting you.
13617Mr. McCabe.
13618
13619Thank you.
13620
13621On the Wednesday of the last week in October, the situation with
13622the information coming out of New York came back to my attention.
13623
13624I
13625
13626told Director Comey we needed to convene a meeting to discuss the way
13627forward with the potential evidence that had come to our attention out
13628of the Anthony Weiner investigation.
13629COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
13630
13631198
13632
13633COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
13634
13635I set up that meeting to take place on the next day, which was
13636a Thursday.
13637
13638I was traveling at the time.
13639
13640I called in to the meeting.
13641
13642And after the group assembled and I was connected to the meeting, I
13643was quickly dropped from the call on the concern, as I was told at that
13644time, that the meeting might go into classified matters which they
13645didn't want discussed over an open line.
13646I later talked to -- I talked to Director Comey later that day.
13647He told me, "I don't need you in this decision.
13648
13649I have decided what
13650
13651I'm going to do, and I think it would be better if you stayed out of
13652it."
13653Mr. Meadows.
13654
13655So you were part of the decision -- because he had
13656
13657already made up his mind at that point.
13658
13659So he wanted you to recuse
13660
13661yourself so it looked like you weren't involved?
13662Mr. McCabe.
13663
13664No, sir.
13665
13666We didn't even discuss recusal until I
13667
13668returned to the office the following Monday.
13669
13670I thereafter had a series
13671
13672of meetings with James Baker and other people and ultimately sat down
13673and talked to the Director.
13674
13675I made my argument that I did not think
13676
13677recusal was a good idea -- I didn't think it was necessary under the
13678law or the facts.
13679
13680I didn't think it was a good idea for the case.
13681
13682He
13683
13684disagreed with me, asked me -- he said he thought that I should recuse,
13685and I did so at his request.
13686Mr. Meadows.
13687
13688Okay.
13689
13690Thank you.
13691
13692Mr. Chairman, I'll yield to you.
13693Chairman Goodlatte.
13694ahead and switch.
13695
13696We have a minute, so I think we'll just go
13697
13698When we recessed for votes, you had, I think,
13699COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
13700
13701199
13702
13703COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
13704
1370514 minutes remaining, and you would also have another 30 minutes
13706following our having just taken 30 minutes.
13707
13708So for the next
13709
1371044 minutes, you and any other member of the minority can ask questions.
13711And we'll switch places with you.
13712Ms. Jackson Lee.
13713
13714Thank you.
13715
13716I was in the middle of my questioning, so I'd like to continue.
13717When I first started, I gave a series of incidents that I think
13718were major historic incidents in the United States, criminal incidents,
13719terrorist incidents, civil rights incidents is where I think you said,
13720yes, that the FBI was -Chairman Goodlatte.
13721
13722Ms. Jackson Lee, could you talk a little bit
13723
13724more closely to the microphone so we can hear you back here?
13725Ms. Jackson Lee.
13726
13727Thank you.
13728
13729At the beginning of my first round of questioning, I gave a series
13730of historic events in the United States, criminal events, terrorist
13731events, where I mentioned them with the question, was the FBI
13732instrumental in the solving of these particular heinous acts, including
13733some involving the civil rights era, and I think concluded with your
13734comments this these are incidents that may have inspired you or reflect
13735on your thoughts about the FBI.
13736So I'm going to do a series of questions, but I did not get a chance
13737to finish my thought, which was to thank the FBI for its service and,
13738in particular, thank you for the service that you've given as well.
13739Mr. McCabe.
13740
13741Thank you, ma'am.
13742
13743Ms. Jackson Lee.
13744
13745That is the FBI that many of us know and care
13746COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
13747
13748COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
13749
13750200
13751
13752about.
13753Mr. McCabe.
13754
13755Thank you.
13756
13757Ms. Jackson Lee.
13758
13759I was in the middle of the question about, we
13760
13761are here regarding the Clinton emails, but the underlying premise is
13762a bias one way or the other.
13763Mr. McCabe.
13764
13765Yes, ma'am.
13766
13767Ms. Jackson Lee.
13768
13769In this instance, a bias against Mr. Trump.
13770
13771had some other questions about that.
13772
13773I
13774
13775So I'm going to pursue this line
13776
13777of questioning.
13778Are you familiar or have you worked with Jim Kallstrom, former
13779head of the New York FBI field office and assistant director until 2016?
13780Have you worked with him?
13781Mr. McCabe.
13782
13783Mr. Kallstrom was the assistant director in charge
13784
13785the New York city field office when I showed up as a brand-new agent
13786in 1996.
13787
13788I didn't know him.
13789
13790We didn't work closely together.
13791
13792But
13793
13794I worked under him for that period of time.
13795Ms. Jackson Lee.
13796
13797Were you aware he stated publicly that the
13798
13799Clintons are a crime family?
13800Mr. McCabe.
13801
13802I was not aware of that specific statement.
13803
13804Ms. Jackson Lee.
13805
13806Do you believe his strong feelings or apparent
13807
13808bias toward the Clintons would have infected the work of the New York
13809field office in its entirety?
13810Mr. McCabe.
13811
13812I don't -- first of all, I'm not sure -- I think you
13813
13814said that he left in 2016.
13815Ms. Jackson Lee.
13816
13817He actually, I think, left long before then.
13818
13819I have here until 2016 he was assistant
13820COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
13821
13822201
13823
13824COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
13825
13826director.
13827Mr. McCabe.
13828
13829Jim Kallstrom?
13830
13831Ms. Jackson Lee.
13832Mr. McCabe.
13833
13834Former head of the NY FBI?
13835
13836Yeah, he was head the New York field office, but he
13837
13838left the FBI probably -Ms. Jackson Lee.
13839Mr. McCabe.
13840
13841Before 2016?
13842
13843Long before 9/11.
13844
13845Ms. Jackson Lee.
13846
13847Okay.
13848
13849Well, I will -- but he came -- you came
13850
13851in 1996.
13852Mr. McCabe.
13853
13854I did.
13855
13856Ms. Jackson Lee.
13857Mr. McCabe.
13858there.
13859
13860And you were in the field office.
13861
13862That's right.
13863
13864He was in there in 1996 when I was
13865
13866He retired a few years after I got there.
13867
13868I left in 2006.
13869
13870We
13871
13872had had many ADICs by then, so-Ms. Jackson Lee.
13873
13874So let me take his comments both as an FBI agent
13875
13876and possibly a former FBI agent.
13877Mr. McCabe.
13878
13879Yes, ma'am.
13880
13881Ms. Jackson Lee.
13882
13883That if he had these strong feelings or apparent
13884
13885bias toward the Clintons, would that have infected the entire office?
13886Mr. McCabe.
13887
13888You know, you're asking me to speculate on something
13889
13890that I don't know happened, and I'm not comfortable with that.
13891Ms. Jackson Lee.
13892
13893Were you, by any chance, aware that
13894
13895Mr. Kallstrom leads a charity to which the Trump Foundation had
13896contributed more than $230,000?
13897Mr. McCabe.
13898
13899I was not aware of that.
13900COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
13901
13902202
13903
13904COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
13905
13906Ms. Jackson Lee.
13907
13908Were you aware the charity's vice president is
13909
13910also the regional vice president for Trump Hotels in New York?
13911Mr. McCabe.
13912
13913I did not know that.
13914
13915Ms. Jackson Lee.
13916
13917Were you aware Mr. Kallstrom himself was a
13918
13919single -Mr. Meadows.
13920
13921Excuse me.
13922
13923Again, that's beyond of scope of where
13924
13925we are.
13926Ms. Sachsman Grooms.
13927
13928The discussions about whether there were
13929
13930leaks out of the New York field office is critically important to
13931exactly the scope of this issue.
13932Mr. Meadows.
13933
13934We can certainly look at leaks, but --
13935
13936Ms. Sachsman Grooms.
13937Mr. Meadows.
13938
13939Well, so Mr. Kallstrom is the leak.
13940
13941So --
13942
13943But the point of Sheila's questioning -- and we can
13944
13945get back and forth and debate this -- is not the source of leaks.
13946
13947It
13948
13949is to make inflammatory statements that go beyond the scope of what
13950we're talking about.
13951So let's all just abide by the rules.
13952
13953I actually chastised
13954
13955Mr. Jordan for going beyond the scope as well.
13956
13957Let's keep this fair
13958
13959and balanced, okay?
13960Ms. Jackson Lee.
13961chastise.
13962
13963Mr. Meadows, I will not accept this as a
13964
13965You're making a comment, and it's not chastising.
13966
13967But you wearing your legal hat and my counsel being, I think, very
13968correct, last week, one member of, I believe, the committee that you
13969are on indicated that this gentleman should be fired.
13970
13971And,
13972
13973therefore -- I've obviously said the gentleman should not be fired in
13974COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
13975
13976203
13977
13978COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
13979
13980no way, shape, form, or fashion.
13981comes with a biased perspective.
13982
13983But the idea was that this gentleman
13984Now, we're finding out today that
13985
13986that is zero truth.
13987Mr. Meadows.
13988
13989You mean the deputy director --
13990
13991Ms. Jackson Lee.
13992
13993This is the gentleman that I'm speaking of.
13994
13995So you have additionally -- and the inference of this particular
13996set of investigations is the bias in the FBI leaning more toward, in
13997this particular instance, Mrs. Clinton.
13998
13999This shows that, whether this
14000
14001director was there up until 2016, the bias in the New York office, in
14002particular, to the present President of the United States.
14003So let me summarize -Mr. Meadows.
14004
14005Just with the scope, let's make sure that --
14006
14007Ms. Jackson Lee.
14008Mr. Meadows.
14009
14010I will stay in the scope --
14011
14012-- we keep within the scope, Sheila.
14013
14014And as a
14015
14016friend, I mean, I am coming in a gentle way to say let's bring it back
14017to the track that we need to do it.
14018Ms. Sachsman Grooms.
14019
14020Just for the record, my understanding of
14021
14022the scope of this committee's investigation includes the investigation
14023being conducted -- includes the topics being investigated by the
14024inspector general.
14025The inspector general is specifically including in its
14026investigation of the FBI's decisions surrounding Clinton's emails
14027decisions related to our members, Mr. Cummings and Mr. Conyers at the
14028time, concerns surrounding leaks that were potentially coming from the
14029New York field office to Rudy Giuliani and how that could have impacted.
14030COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
14031
14032204
14033
14034COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
14035
14036And so this line of inquiry is following that and so well within
14037the scope.
14038Mr. Meadows.
14039
14040So what timeframe?
14041
14042Are you talking about leaks
14043
14044during what timeframe?
14045Ms. Sachsman Grooms.
14046
14047So the leaks would have occurred from
14048
14049people within the FBI field office to Mr. Kallstrom.
14050
14051Mr. Kallstrom
14052
14053would have been outside of the FBI field office.
14054Chairman Goodlatte.
14055Ms. Sachsman Grooms.
14056
14057What timeframe?
14058During the timeframe of the leaks.
14059
14060leaks would be the summer of 2016.
14061Chairman Goodlatte.
14062
14063The
14064
14065We're well within.
14066
14067Go ahead with the questions, and if we think
14068
14069you're going astray, we'll indicate.
14070Ms. Jackson Lee.
14071
14072Thank you.
14073
14074And thank you and Mr. Meadows for
14075
14076your seeking a clarification.
14077Mr. Kallstrom, like Mayor Giuliani, repeatedly cited exchanges
14078with active agents about ongoing cases, including the Clinton
14079investigation.
14080What is the FBI's policy on agents engaging in such contacts with
14081outside parties or former agents specifically about ongoing cases?
14082Mr. McCabe.
14083
14084Agents are not supposed to discuss their work with
14085
14086people outside the organization, whether or not they're former agents.
14087Ms. Jackson Lee.
14088
14089So any actions like that certainly would have
14090
14091been against FBI policy, whether you're in the field office, in
14092headquarters, or in Washington.
14093Mr. McCabe.
14094
14095That's correct.
14096COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
14097
14098205
14099
14100COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
14101
14102Ms. Jackson Lee.
14103
14104Are you aware of any agents involved in the
14105
14106Clinton case communicating with Mr. Kallstrom, Mayor Giuliani, or
14107other outside parties?
14108Mr. McCabe.
14109
14110I am not.
14111
14112I'm not aware of a specific agent
14113
14114communicating with Mr. Kallstrom or others.
14115Ms. Jackson Lee.
14116
14117Are you aware or do you recall comments made
14118
14119about -- well, let me continue this line of reasoning.
14120And so you're not aware of any agents involved in the Clinton case
14121communicating with Mr. Kallstrom, with Mayor Giuliani, or outside
14122parties?
14123Mr. McCabe.
14124
14125I am very familiar with the concern, a formidable
14126
14127concern that we had, about agents discussing this case and other matters
14128outside the organization.
14129at this time.
14130
14131There was a lot of that activity going on
14132
14133And so that was something that we discussed, that was
14134
14135a topic that I discussed with the current head and the then-head of
14136our FBI field office in New York, Assistant Director in Charge Bill
14137Sweeney.
14138Ms. Jackson Lee.
14139
14140So it may be a possibility that they
14141
14142communicated to Mr. Kallstrom or Mayor Giuliani.
14143Mr. McCabe.
14144
14145It's certainly possible, yes.
14146
14147Ms. Jackson Lee.
14148
14149I think you recall Mayor Giuliani being on an
14150
14151interview or -- let me just say, do you recall Mr. Giuliani being on
14152an interview saying, "You're going to hear something soon"?
14153Mr. McCabe.
14154
14155I remember coming across that.
14156
14157I don't know whether
14158
14159I read a report of that or saw the interview, but I remember hearing
14160COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
14161
14162COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
14163
14164206
14165
14166about those comments.
14167Ms. Jackson Lee.
14168
14169But it still goes against the grain of FBI
14170
14171agents communicating about active cases to outsiders?
14172Mr. McCabe.
14173
14174That is contrary to FBI policy.
14175
14176Ms. Jackson Lee.
14177stated, "Who knows?
14178
14179On one specific Fox appearance, Mr. Kallstrom
14180
14181Maybe the locals would have done it," referencing
14182
14183to law enforcement leaks during 2016 regarding Hillary
14184Clinton -- again, he is outside.
14185"Who knows?
14186
14187He is not an FBI agent, but stated,
14188
14189Maybe the locals would have done it," referencing to law
14190
14191enforcement leaks during the 2016 Hillary Clinton matter.
14192Did the New York office or any other field office threaten to leak
14193information in an attempt to influence you, your team, or
14194Director Comey's decisionmaking related to any part of the Clinton or
14195Trump investigation?
14196
14197Did it trickle down to where you were, which was
14198
14199Washington, D.C., I guess, at that time?
14200Mr. McCabe.
14201
14202So you're asking me did the field office threaten
14203
14204us with leaking information?
14205Ms. Jackson Lee.
14206
14207Did the field office threaten to leak
14208
14209information in an attempt to influence you, your team, or
14210Director Comey's decision related to Clinton or Trump investigations?
14211Mr. McCabe.
14212
14213Not that I'm aware of.
14214
14215Ms. Jackson Lee.
14216Mr. McCabe.
14217
14218You don't remember that chain of activity.
14219
14220I do not.
14221
14222Ms. Jackson Lee.
14223
14224Are you aware of any investigations into leaks
14225
14226related to the Clinton investigation coming from the New York field
14227COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
14228
14229207
14230
14231COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
14232
14233office?
14234Mr. McCabe.
14235
14236What was the question again?
14237
14238Ms. Jackson Lee.
14239
14240Are you aware of any investigations into leaks
14241
14242related to the Clinton investigation coming from the New York field
14243office?
14244Mr. McCabe.
14245
14246To the extent that your question could call for me
14247
14248to confirm or deny the existence of an investigation, I cannot do so.
14249Ms. Jackson Lee.
14250
14251I understand.
14252
14253Are there any investigations into leaks related to the 2016
14254Presidential election, such -Mr. McCabe.
14255
14256Once again, I can neither confirm or deny the
14257
14258existence of an ongoing investigation.
14259Ms. Jackson Lee.
14260
14261Let me conclude this so I can yield to my friend
14262
14263from Maryland.
14264As I said before, the underlying premise was bias.
14265
14266And I may have
14267
14268an opportunity to reassess the questions and then address them again.
14269But the underlying premise is bias.
14270You did answer that the idea of communicating by active duty FBI
14271agents to outside entities is forbidden.
14272Mr. McCabe.
14273
14274Yes, ma'am.
14275
14276Ms. Jackson Lee.
14277
14278And so do you conclude, as we are at the end
14279
14280of the day, somewhat, that you still maintain that the idea of bias
14281permeating any actions dealing with the final decision on Mrs. Clinton,
14282whether you are biased in one way or another as an active FBI agent,
14283that that is, one, forbidden but, two, had no impact on your ultimate
14284COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
14285
14286208
14287
14288COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
14289
14290decision dealing with either filing charges against Mrs. Clinton
14291regarding emails or not filing charges?
14292Mr. McCabe.
14293
14294I am not aware and I was not aware at that time, in
14295
14296July of 2016, of the personal biases of any member of that team that
14297worked on this case impacting the decisions or the work that we did
14298in any way.
14299Ms. Jackson Lee.
14300Mr. McCabe.
14301
14302Including your own.
14303
14304Very much including my own.
14305
14306I do not have political
14307
14308biases.
14309Ms. Jackson Lee.
14310Mr. Raskin.
14311
14312Mr. Raskin?
14313
14314Thank you so much.
14315
14316Mr. McCabe, again, thank you for your endurance and your patience
14317with us today.
14318
14319I just have a few clean-up questions here.
14320
14321One is, I think I'd be extremely careless, if not grossly
14322negligent, not to ask this question about an exchange you had with
14323Representative Gowdy.
14324
14325The chairman invited you to clarify that, in
14326
14327the time before the election, the FBI's investigation of Trump campaign
14328associates and their connections with Russia was a counterintelligence
14329investigation and not a criminal investigation.
14330
14331Is that right?
14332
14333He
14334
14335asked you to clarify that.
14336Mr. McCabe.
14337
14338He asked me to clarify it.
14339
14340What I was trying to
14341
14342clarify -- I'm not sure that I did -- was that his original question
14343was focused on the statements that Director Comey made during his
14344testimony.
14345
14346And in those statements, Director Comey, for the first
14347
14348time, publicly acknowledged the existence of a counterintelligence
14349COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
14350
14351209
14352
14353COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
14354
14355investigation.
14356Mr. Raskin.
14357
14358Well, what does it mean to have a
14359
14360counterintelligence investigation?
14361Mr. McCabe.
14362
14363It essentially means an investigation that is
14364
14365conducted by our counterintelligence agents and managed or overseen
14366by our counterintelligence program.
14367
14368It is possible and oftentimes
14369
14370counterintelligence investigations result in criminal charges.
14371
14372But
14373
14374it's more of a reflection of who's working the issue within the FBI.
14375Mr. Raskin.
14376
14377And it is triggered by a potential national security
14378
14379issue?
14380Mr. McCabe.
14381
14382Yes.
14383
14384Mr. Raskin.
14385
14386Okay.
14387
14388I wanted to ask you -- just go back to the question of recusal
14389for a moment.
14390
14391Is there one general DOJ standard for recusal, or is
14392
14393there a separate one for the FBI?
14394Mr. McCabe.
14395
14396That's a bit complicated.
14397
14398is one singular DOJ standard.
14399
14400I don't know that there
14401
14402There's a number of statutes and
14403
14404policies that impact on those sorts of decisions, and I think they apply
14405equally to the Department and the FBI.
14406Mr. Raskin.
14407
14408Okay.
14409
14410And in the first instance, it's up to the
14411
14412prosecutor or the agent himself or herself as to whether or not to
14413recuse?
14414
14415And then --
14416
14417Mr. McCabe.
14418
14419I think, as a provisional matter, we rely on
14420
14421employees to determine when they have conflicts or potential conflicts
14422or the appearance of a conflict with a matter that they have been
14423COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
14424
14425COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
14426
14427210
14428
14429assigned or are involved with.
14430Mr. Raskin.
14431
14432Okay.
14433
14434And certainly there are cases where people
14435
14436recuse themselves where they don't think they have a conflict of
14437interest, where they don't think they would be biased in terms of their
14438work, but they are being extra sensitive to the possibility of public
14439perception of bias.
14440
14441Is that right?
14442
14443Mr. McCabe.
14444
14445That's correct.
14446
14447Mr. Raskin.
14448
14449And you're aware of a lot of cases like that, where
14450
14451people recuse in that situation?
14452Mr. McCabe.
14453
14454I am aware of some, yes.
14455
14456Mr. Raskin.
14457
14458Yeah.
14459
14460Okay.
14461
14462And let me just ask you finally about prosecutorial discretion.
14463Because I was listening to a lot of the questions today; it seemed that
14464a lot of them were asking reasonable questions about the exercise of
14465prosecutorial discretion.
14466
14467Certainly, a lot of people on our side of
14468
14469the aisle asked the same kinds of questions about Mr. Comey's decision
14470to have the press conference about the Clinton emails and so on.
14471Mr. McCabe.
14472
14473Yes.
14474
14475Mr. Raskin.
14476
14477And the whole idea of prosecutorial discretion
14478
14479suggests that there might be a range of professionally reasonable
14480decisions that could be made at any particular juncture in an
14481investigation.
14482
14483Would you agree that that's right?
14484
14485Mr. McCabe.
14486
14487I would.
14488
14489Mr. Raskin.
14490
14491So it's not as if there's one straight line that
14492
14493every prosecutor follows in every case.
14494
14495They're a serious of judgment
14496
14497COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
14498
14499211
14500
14501COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
14502
14503calls, as people were saying before.
14504Mr. McCabe.
14505
14506Of course.
14507
14508Mr. Raskin.
14509
14510Now I'm just asking for your opinion, for the benefit
14511
14512of the committee, in looking back at all of these things that have been
14513within the scope of the discussion today.
14514Is it helpful for us to transform every difference over exercises
14515of prosecutorial discretion into allegations of partisan bias or a
14516political agenda?
14517
14518In other words, is that the most helpful way of
14519
14520thinking about prosecutorial discretion?
14521Mr. McCabe.
14522
14523I don't know that I can -- I don't know that I can
14524
14525say what the most helpful way of thinking about it is.
14526
14527I can say that,
14528
14529in this case, the decisions that we made were not made based on political
14530bias.
14531
14532They were made in that realm that you, I think, accurately
14533
14534described as one where reasonable judgments could differ, but they were
14535professional judgments, nonetheless, based on our understanding of the
14536facts at the time.
14537Mr. Raskin.
14538
14539And the problem, of course, is that, when people are
14540
14541watching, they don't like the particular real or apparent implications
14542of a particular decision.
14543
14544It's easy enough in a pluralistic,
14545
14546democratic society for people to attribute a partisan motive or a
14547political bias to something that takes place which they think cuts the
14548wrong way.
14549And certainly I remember back to Mr. Comey's famous press
14550conference, and a lot of my Democratic friends were very upset about
14551it and said that they thought that this was an outrageous interference
14552COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
14553
14554212
14555
14556COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
14557
14558in the campaign and him stepping out of his role.
14559
14560And as a former State
14561
14562assistant attorney general, I tried, best I could, to state that there
14563was a set of criteria that he may have been operating under that had
14564nothing to do with a partisan agenda despite the fact that he was
14565Republican and so on.
14566All right.
14567today.
14568
14569Well, I just want to thank you for your patience
14570
14571And if you have else to respond to that?
14572
14573Mr. McCabe.
14574
14575If I could.
14576
14577Mr. Raskin.
14578
14579Yeah.
14580
14581Mr. McCabe.
14582
14583Director Comey and I discussed at length the
14584
14585reaction of some of our own employees to the results of the decision.
14586We were concerned about, you know, how that was rippling through the
14587workforce, because there were people, as I've said earlier, who were
14588frustrated.
14589And Director Comey would typically characterize it by saying that
14590some people had a hard time seeing the results, the decisions in the
14591case, in any way other than through the lens of their own personal
14592beliefs and that sometimes colored the way people reacted to things.
14593But, nevertheless, it didn't change the facts upon which we based
14594our decision and the fact that he did so in the way that he felt was
14595best.
14596Mr. Raskin.
14597
14598Great.
14599
14600Well, you've got a tough job, and I want to thank you for doing
14601it.
14602And I will yield back.
14603
14604I don't know if Ms. Lee had any further
14605
14606COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
14607
14608213
14609
14610COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
14611
14612questions.
14613Ms. Jackson Lee.
14614
14615I do.
14616
14617Thank you.
14618
14619I want the record to be clear that Mr. Meadows is a fine colleague,
14620and I know that he accepts my premise that his comments were not
14621chastising.
14622
14623And I thank him for bringing some issues to our attention.
14624
14625And I want to thank our counsel for clarifying them on the record.
14626Certainly I want to thank my colleagues very much for the astute
14627questions that they have had.
14628I want to clarify something else.
14629
14630As I was reading the comments
14631
14632of Mr. Kallstrom, I do want to indicate that they certainly were
14633shocking to me.
14634
14635And for me, on the record, let me be very clear, I
14636
14637do not think the Clintons are a crime family.
14638terminology.
14639
14640I'm saddened of the
14641
14642But that is just my statement on the record as I proceed
14643
14644in questioning.
14645Let me again thank you for your service.
14646
14647And I'm going to have
14648
14649a line of questioning, because you started out by indicating that when
14650you're in public service and you have family members they get seemingly
14651wrapped up in your commitment to public service.
14652
14653They have a
14654
14655commitment to public service, and, therefore, it is misinterpreted.
14656I think it's important to say thank you to a family that has two
14657individuals that are committed to making their community better.
14658Mr. McCabe.
14659
14660Thank you.
14661
14662Ms. Jackson Lee.
14663
14664So I do want to acknowledge that, and I want
14665
14666to also acknowledge, again, my appreciation for that commitment.
14667Mr. McCabe.
14668
14669Thank you, ma'am.
14670COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
14671
14672COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
14673
14674Ms. Jackson Lee.
14675
14676214
14677
14678But you told us today about damaging statements
14679
14680that have been about you and your alleged conflicts of interest.
14681
14682I'd
14683
14684like to discuss that issue with you in some more depth.
14685I'd like to introduce -Ms. Sachsman Grooms.
14686
14687The following document is exhibit 4.
14688
14689[McCabe Exhibit No. 4
14690Was marked for identification.]
14691Ms. Jackson Lee.
14692
14693-- a letter dated December 14, 2016, letter
14694
14695from Jason Herring, Acting Assistant Director, Office of Congressional
14696Affairs, FBI, to Chairman Jason Chaffetz.
14697Have you reviewed the letter before?
14698Mr. McCabe.
14699
14700I have seen it before, ma'am, yes.
14701
14702Ms. Jackson Lee.
14703
14704Are the factual assertions in this letter
14705
14706accurate?
14707Mr. McCabe.
14708
14709Yes, ma'am.
14710
14711Ms. Jackson Lee.
14712
14713When did your wife, Dr. Jill McCabe, first start
14714
14715considering running for a seat in the Virginia State Senate?
14716Mr. McCabe.
14717
14718She was first approached about the prospect
14719
14720in -- the date is February 24th, 2015.
14721Ms. Jackson Lee.
14722Mr. McCabe.
14723
147242015.
14725
14726I just want to reemphasize, 2015.
14727
147282015, yes.
14729
14730Ms. Jackson Lee.
14731
14732And we were dealing with the emails in question
14733
14734in the year 2016.
14735Mr. McCabe.
14736
14737I was.
14738
14739Ms. Jackson Lee.
14740
14741Yes, ma'am.
14742
14743At least you were.
14744COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
14745
14746215
14747
14748COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
14749
14750Mr. McCabe.
14751
14752Yes, ma'am.
14753
14754Ms. Jackson Lee.
14755
14756Because you were not dealing with them
14757
14758preceding that.
14759Mr. McCabe.
14760
14761No, ma'am.
14762
14763Ms. Jackson Lee.
14764
14765So you were not dealing with that as your wife
14766
14767was being recruited or asked to run for office?
14768Mr. McCabe.
14769
14770That's right.
14771
14772She was contacted by an individual
14773
14774who was then the chief of staff for then, maybe still, Lieutenant
14775Governor Ralph Northam.
14776Ms. Jackson Lee.
14777
14778Thank you.
14779
14780And please, though we all know, explain the doctor that your wife
14781is.
14782
14783Ph.D. or Ed.D.?
14784Mr. McCabe.
14785
14786What kind of doctor?
14787
14788She's an M.D.
14789
14790She's a pediatrician.
14791
14792She runs the
14793
14794pediatric ER at Loudoun Inova Hospital in Leesburg, Virginia.
14795Ms. Jackson Lee.
14796
14797And I imagine she has a lot of passion about
14798
14799her practice.
14800Mr. McCabe.
14801
14802She does, ma'am.
14803
14804Ms. Jackson Lee.
14805
14806The letter states that you accompanied Dr.
14807
14808McCabe on a trip to meet with Virginia State officials the weekend of
14809March 7th, 2015.
14810Mr. McCabe.
14811
14812That's correct.
14813
14814Ms. Jackson Lee.
14815
14816Have you met or spoken with Terry McAuliffe
14817
14818since that visit on March 7th, 2015?
14819Mr. McCabe.
14820
14821No, ma'am.
14822
14823Ms. Jackson Lee.
14824
14825The letter goes on to state that on that March
14826COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
14827
14828COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
14829
14830216
14831
1483211, 2015, the Wednesday after your weekend trip, you met with a lengthy
14833list of FBI lawyers and ethics officials:
14834
14835the FBI's deputy designated
14836
14837agency ethics official -- I'm listing the persons -- the assistant
14838director of the Office of Integrity and Compliance, the general counsel
14839of the FBI, and a Washington field office lawyer.
14840Why did you meet with these individuals?
14841Mr. McCabe.
14842
14843Because I knew that if my wife chose to run for office
14844
14845it would raise issues that I needed to be very careful about, like the
14846Hatch Act and things of that nature.
14847
14848So I wanted to get guidance from
14849
14850our chief ethics official and our general counsel and my field office
14851attorney as to the best way to handle those matters professionally and
14852responsibly.
14853Ms. Jackson Lee.
14854
14855So you didn't hesitate, didn't wait 2 months
14856
14857or 6 -Mr. McCabe.
14858
14859No, ma'am.
14860
14861Ms. Jackson Lee.
14862
14863-- months.
14864
14865You immediately engaged with these
14866
14867principals.
14868Mr. McCabe.
14869
14870And, in fact, on the day or two before that meeting,
14871
14872I met with my then-supervisor, Deputy Director Mark Giuliano, and
14873explained the situation to him as well, and he advised that I meet with
14874those folks.
14875Ms. Jackson Lee.
14876Mr. McCabe.
14877
14878And I'm sorry, you were in the --
14879
14880I was the assistant director in charge of the
14881
14882Washington field office at the time.
14883Ms. Jackson Lee.
14884
14885Washington office.
14886COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
14887
14888217
14889
14890COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
14891
14892So I think I already asked what you discussed.
14893
14894It was just to
14895
14896get a framework of what you needed to do -Mr. McCabe.
14897
14898Right.
14899
14900Ms. Jackson Lee.
14901
14902-- having had those meetings, if she decided
14903
14904to run.
14905Mr. McCabe.
14906
14907How to handle the requirements of the Hatch Act and
14908
14909how to think about what actions I should potentially take with respect
14910to the possibility of cases in the Washington field office that might
14911provoke recusal responses.
14912Ms. Jackson Lee.
14913
14914In these meetings, did you disclose that you
14915
14916had accompanied your wife to meet with Governor McAuliffe and that she
14917had the Governor's support?
14918Mr. McCabe.
14919
14920I did.
14921
14922But just to clarify, ma'am, we traveled to
14923
14924Richmond on that Saturday, March 7th, for the purpose of meeting with
14925a different State legislator who my wife had been talking to who was
14926trying to convince my wife to run for office.
14927
14928He was going to be at
14929
14930a meeting of other State Democratic politicians, and he said that the
14931Governor might be at the meeting to deliver a speech.
14932When we got to the hotel to meet with that individual -- his name
14933is
14934
14935-- he informed us that the plans had changed and that
14936
14937the Governor did want to meet with us and would we meet with the Governor
14938at his mansion in Richmond.
14939
14940And so we did that.
14941
14942So we didn't go that Saturday with the intention or understanding
14943that we would definitely be meeting with the Governor.
14944how it worked out.
14945COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
14946
14947That's just
14948
14949COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
14950
14951Ms. Jackson Lee.
14952
14953218
14954
14955And so, when you met with these individuals,
14956
14957you ultimately met with the Governor, not intentionally, but it just
14958worked out that way.
14959
14960Were you able to discuss with these individuals
14961
14962ethics that your wife may have had or would have the Governor's support?
14963Mr. McCabe.
14964
14965Yeah, that was the purpose of the meeting.
14966
14967They
14968
14969were -- they were trying to find a candidate to run in the 13th District
14970for state senate, and they were interested in having my wife do that.
14971We went down there to talk to some folks to better understand what this
14972all meant.
14973
14974We are not political people.
14975
14976Ms. Jackson Lee.
14977
14978But when you had this discussion with the ethics
14979
14980lawyers, you laid everything out for them?
14981Mr. McCabe.
14982
14983I did.
14984
14985I laid the entire situation out for them.
14986
14987I explained who we had met with, what they had told us, and we discussed
14988the whole matter.
14989Ms. Jackson Lee.
14990
14991You might have indicated that she had his
14992
14993support.
14994Mr. McCabe.
14995
14996Yes, absolutely, I did.
14997
14998Ms. Jackson Lee.
14999
15000And this is -- I think what steps you took
15001
15002following these meetings were those meetings, the meetings with the
15003ethics -- I don't want to lead you, but the meetings that you that
15004you -- steps you took after those meetings were again to come back to
15005the office and meet with these individuals.
15006Mr. McCabe.
15007
15008That's right.
15009
15010I met with my supervisor first, and
15011
15012then I met with my attorney in the field office, and then we all gathered
15013in the ethics officer's office in headquarters on the 11th.
15014COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
15015
15016COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
15017
15018Ms. Jackson Lee.
15019
15020219
15021
15022And when did she declare -- when did Dr. McCabe
15023
15024declare her candidacy?
15025Mr. McCabe.
15026
15027She was probably the next day, I think the 12th.
15028
15029We
15030
15031also -- during that period of time, I also reached out for the Director
15032of the FBI to ensure that the Director didn't have any misgivings or
15033concerns about my wife running for office.
15034Ms. Jackson Lee.
15035Mr. McCabe.
15036
15037He did not.
15038
15039Ms. Jackson Lee.
15040Mr. McCabe.
15041
15042Were you involved in your wife's campaign?
15043
15044Not at all.
15045
15046Ms. Jackson Lee.
15047limited.
15048
15049Did the Director have any concerns?
15050
15051It sounds like your involvement was extremely
15052
15053Were these activities approved by ethics officials if you
15054
15055had any involvement?
15056Mr. McCabe.
15057
15058Yes.
15059
15060I spoke to Pat Kelly on a number of occasions
15061
15062during the course of the campaign.
15063
15064I would ask him questions, like
15065
15066they wanted to include a family photograph in some sort of literature,
15067was it permissible for me to show up and appear in a photograph?
15068
15069He
15070
15071advised me that it was, as long as my affiliation was not identified.
15072Other things like that, we talked about.
15073
15074You know, he explained to
15075
15076me that it was permissible to wear a button or a T-shirt, but you
15077couldn't wear those things in the office.
15078
15079You could have a sticker
15080
15081on your car, but then you couldn't park the car in the office parking
15082lot, all the kind of day-to-day mechanics of the Hatch Act.
15083Ms. Jackson Lee.
15084
15085Did you feel, as you were getting all of these
15086
15087answers or making all of these inquiries, did you feel yourself becoming
15088COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
15089
15090COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
15091
15092220
15093
15094more biased in anything that you might be doing because you were
15095affiliated with someone who was affiliated with or had the support of
15096Governor McAuliffe?
15097Mr. McCabe.
15098
15099No, ma'am.
15100
15101Ms. Jackson Lee.
15102
15103When the election for the Senate seat -- when
15104
15105was the election for the Senate seat?
15106Mr. McCabe.
15107
15108It was November of 2015.
15109
15110Ms. Jackson Lee.
15111Mr. McCabe.
15112
15113Yes, ma'am.
15114
15115Ms. Jackson Lee.
15116Mr. McCabe.
15117
15118And that was way before 2016?
15119
15120And your wife's success or --
15121
15122She did not -- she lost her race, ma'am.
15123
15124Ms. Jackson Lee.
15125
15126Between when Dr. McCabe first started
15127
15128considering running for the state senate seat to the day that the
15129election occurred, did you have any oversight or supervisory role in
15130the Clinton email investigation?
15131Mr. McCabe.
15132
15133I'm sorry.
15134
15135Ms. Jackson Lee.
15136
15137For what time period?
15138
15139From the timeframe when your wife started
15140
15141considering -Mr. McCabe.
15142
15143Yes, ma'am.
15144
15145Ms. Jackson Lee.
15146Mr. McCabe.
15147
15148-- running until that race was over --
15149
15150Yes.
15151
15152Ms. Jackson Lee.
15153
15154-- did you have any involvement and any
15155
15156oversight or supervisory role in the Clinton email investigation?
15157Mr. McCabe.
15158
15159No, ma'am, none whatsoever.
15160
15161Ms. Jackson Lee.
15162
15163So, during that timeframe, you could not have
15164COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
15165
15166221
15167
15168COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
15169
15170impacted, raised questions, given your thoughts on the Clinton email
15171investigation -Mr. McCabe.
15172
15173No, ma'am.
15174
15175Ms. Jackson Lee.
15176Mr. McCabe.
15177
15178That's correct.
15179
15180Ms. Jackson Lee.
15181Mr. McCabe.
15182
15183And you don't recall doing that?
15184
15185I did not.
15186
15187Ms. Jackson Lee.
15188Mr. McCabe.
15189
15190-- at that time?
15191
15192I'm asking the question.
15193
15194I did not.
15195
15196Ms. Jackson Lee.
15197
15198During that time period, while your wife was
15199
15200considering running for state senate until the day that the election
15201occurred, did you personally take any actions to influence or impact
15202the Clinton email investigation during that timeframe?
15203Mr. McCabe.
15204
15205No, ma'am.
15206
15207The Washington field office contributed
15208
15209some personnel to the investigation.
15210
15211I did not make the decisions of
15212
15213who we would send or how many people we would send.
15214
15215I was aware of
15216
15217the fact that we had some folks working at headquarters on a
15218headquarters special.
15219Ms. Jackson Lee.
15220Mr. McCabe.
15221
15222This is my final question.
15223
15224Yes, ma'am.
15225
15226Ms. Jackson Lee.
15227
15228It is repeating, but please allow me to make
15229
15230sure that we have heard it more than once.
15231
15232Just to be very clear:
15233
15234Did
15235
15236you or your wife ever solicit or receive any funds as a quid pro quo
15237for any action that you might have taken running or running any quid
15238pro quo for that -- her running, you being her husband?
15239COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
15240
15241222
15242
15243COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
15244
15245Mr. McCabe.
15246
15247No, ma'am, never.
15248
15249Ms. Jackson Lee.
15250
15251So, finally, as I indicated, it was brought to
15252
15253my attention that your name was raised with firing.
15254Mr. McCabe.
15255
15256Yes, ma'am.
15257
15258Ms. Jackson Lee.
15259
15260Do you have a commitment to the Federal Bureau
15261
15262of Investigation for its purpose, its mission, and its service to the
15263Nation?
15264
15265You have an ongoing commitment.
15266
15267Mr. McCabe.
15268
15269I swore an oath on July 7th, 1996, to protect and
15270
15271defend the Constitution of the United States and to do that through
15272my service at the FBI.
15273Ms. Jackson Lee.
15274ourselves.
15275
15276That is my commitment.
15277And most of us don't like to speak about
15278
15279Do you see any reason in terms of the context of the
15280
15281questioning that we have given today -- and, obviously, it has not been
15282completed -- that would -- your knowledge, your supervisory knowledge,
15283your knowledge of the work that you're doing, that you would be a
15284candidate for being fired?
15285Mr. McCabe.
15286
15287No, ma'am.
15288
15289Ms. Jackson Lee.
15290
15291Let me thank you very much.
15292
15293I'm not sure if
15294
15295you'll see me again in the questioning series since my colleagues will
15296start, but I do believe what has been put on the record is crucial
15297regarding your service and the facts that we are trying to secure, which
15298is the issue of bias or wrong decisions being made with respect to
15299Mrs. Clinton's emails, and you have clarified them from the perspective
15300of my questioning, and I may have another series, but I will conclude
15301by being redundant:
15302
15303I do not believe you should be fired, as well.
15304COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
15305
15306223
15307
15308COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
15309
15310Mr. McCabe.
15311
15312Thank you, ma'am.
15313
15314Ms. Jackson Lee.
15315
15316I don't either.
15317
15318Thank you.
15319
15320Thank you for your service.
15321
15322Ms. Sachsman Grooms.
15323
15324Can we go off the record?
15325
15326[Discussion off the record.]
15327Chairman Goodlatte.
15328
15329We do have a lot more questions on our side,
15330
15331so, Mr. McCabe, would you like to take a break for 5 minutes?
15332Mr. McCabe.
15333
15334No, sir, I'm good.
15335
15336Chairman Goodlatte.
15337Mr. McCabe.
15338
15339Thank you.
15340
15341Chairman Goodlatte.
15342Mr. McCabe.
15343
15344Okay.
15345
15346All right.
15347
15348Let's go back on the record.
15349
15350Sir.
15351
15352Chairman Goodlatte.
15353
15354Mr. McCabe, did you or anyone in upper level
15355
15356management ever ask lower level management and agents inside the Bureau
15357to scrub or review FISA collection that has anything to do with
15358political candidates, including candidates in the 2016 election?
15359Mr. McCabe.
15360
15361Did I or anyone -- I'm sorry.
15362
15363Chairman Goodlatte.
15364
15365Can you repeat that?
15366
15367Did you or anyone in upper level management
15368
15369ever ask lower level management and agents inside the Bureau to scrub
15370or review FISA collection that has anything to do with political
15371candidates, including candidates in the 2016 election?
15372Mr. McCabe.
15373
15374No.
15375
15376Chairman Goodlatte.
15377
15378Are you aware whether the FBI ever provided
15379
15380defensive briefings to anyone connected to the 2016 election concerning
15381threats from foreign adversaries?
15382Mr. Schools.
15383
15384How is that within the scope, Chairman?
15385COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
15386
15387COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
15388
15389Chairman Goodlatte.
15390
15391224
15392
15393It is within the scope because it relates
15394
15395to the investigation into Mrs. Clinton.
15396Ms. Anderson.
15397
15398I'm sorry.
15399
15400How is it related to the investigation
15401
15402of Mrs. Clinton?
15403Mr. Schools.
15404
15405It is not clear to me how that is.
15406
15407Chairman Goodlatte.
15408
15409If you're relating to anything related to
15410
15411Mrs. Clinton, including a defensive briefing, it is part of this
15412investigation.
15413Mr. Schools.
15414
15415Even if it occurred after the Clinton investigation
15416
15417was announced closed?
15418Chairman Goodlatte.
15419
15420Yes.
15421
15422Any time related to 2016 political
15423
15424candidates.
15425Mr. Brower.
15426
15427If I can try again, Mr. Chairman, how does a
15428
15429defensive briefing of Mrs. Clinton subsequent to the closing of the
15430email investigation relate to the Clinton email investigation?
15431Chairman Goodlatte.
15432
15433Because, obviously, at one point, the
15434
15435Clinton email investigation was reopened.
15436
15437It could be reopened at any
15438
15439time, and therefore, I think it is very pertinent to the -- it could
15440be reopened at any time.
15441Mr. McCabe.
15442
15443At any time.
15444
15445So are you asking me if we provided defensive
15446
15447briefings to any candidate?
15448Chairman Goodlatte.
15449Mr. Schools.
15450
15451Yes, for the 2016 election.
15452
15453Mr. Chairman, your original question may have been
15454
15455confined to the Clinton campaign.
15456Chairman Goodlatte.
15457
15458Is that correct?
15459
15460I can confine it to that.
15461
15462COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
15463
15464225
15465
15466COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
15467
15468Mr. Schools.
15469
15470Let's do that because I think it makes it closer
15471
15472to within the scope.
15473Mr. McCabe.
15474
15475I'm aware that we participated in a defensive
15476
15477briefing for both candidates after they were designated their parties'
15478nominees, as is the normal course of business.
15479
15480We did defensive
15481
15482briefings for the nominees and for the nominees for Vice President and
15483also a third defensive briefing for I think the small staff of the
15484nominee.
15485Chairman Goodlatte.
15486Mr. McCabe.
15487
15488And do you know roughly when those occurred?
15489
15490I don't remember off the top of my head.
15491
15492I want to
15493
15494say October.
15495
15496There would have been six different, you know, different
15497
15498engagements.
15499
15500Those briefings are actually coordinated by and
15501
15502scheduled by the Director of National Intelligence.
15503sets the whole thing up.
15504
15505The DNI's office
15506
15507The FBI is given a small, you know, part
15508
15509of -- if it is a 2-hour briefing, we're given some small period of time,
15510maybe 15, 20 minutes, to do a defensive briefing of the nominee.
15511Chairman Goodlatte.
15512
15513Was the code name for the Clinton
15514
15515investigation "midyear exam"?
15516Mr. McCabe.
15517
15518It was.
15519
15520Chairman Goodlatte.
15521
15522Does the FBI usually give each case a code
15523
15524name, or is this specifically a practice with counterintelligence
15525investigations?
15526Mr. McCabe.
15527
15528It is a fairly common practice across all the
15529
15530programs.
15531Chairman Goodlatte.
15532
15533Was the Clinton investigation a
15534
15535COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
15536
15537226
15538
15539COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
15540
15541counterintelligence investigation or a criminal investigation?
15542Mr. McCabe.
15543
15544It began as a counterintelligence investigation.
15545
15546It was conducted by the Counterintelligence Division.
15547Chairman Goodlatte.
15548
15549Do you have any idea why this investigation
15550
15551was code name "midyear exam"?
15552Mr. McCabe.
15553
15554I do not.
15555
15556Mr. Somers.
15557
15558You said it began as a counterintelligence
15559
15560investigation.
15561
15562Did it then switch to a criminal investigation?
15563
15564Mr. McCabe.
15565
15566No, it began and stayed in the Counterintelligence
15567
15568Division.
15569Mr. Somers.
15570
15571Okay.
15572
15573Chairman Goodlatte.
15574
15575I understand that Jim Baker informed the
15576
15577General Counsel's Office recently that he is stepping down as general
15578counsel.
15579
15580Are you aware why he has made this decision?
15581
15582Mr. Schools.
15583
15584Mr. Chairman, I believe that is clearly beyond the
15585
15586scope.
15587Chairman Goodlatte.
15588
15589Does it relate to the Clinton
15590
15591investigation?
15592Mr. Schools.
15593
15594It is a personnel decision with the FBI.
15595
15596I just
15597
15598don't think that's -- your letter talks about the relevant components
15599of the Clinton investigation, which is February -- the July press
15600conference, the October letter, the November letter.
15601
15602Mr. Baker's
15603
15604status as of today has no relevance to that.
15605Chairman Goodlatte.
15606
15607Well, he certainly can answer with regard
15608
15609to the Clinton investigation.
15610COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
15611
15612227
15613
15614COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
15615
15616Mr. Schools.
15617
15618I'm not sure he knows, but it is -- that's a
15619
15620personnel matter that I really think is outside the scope.
15621tried to be very patient here.
15622
15623We have
15624
15625We have been here 8-1/2 hours.
15626
15627We
15628
15629really want to be cooperative, but I think a personnel decision with
15630respect to general counsel of the FBI was not contemplated within the
15631scope of the parameters of the letter we got from you.
15632Chairman Goodlatte.
15633
15634Let me ask you this then, did Jim Baker ever
15635
15636advise you on the Clinton email investigation?
15637Mr. McCabe.
15638
15639Did he advise?
15640
15641Yes, he was an active participant
15642
15643in the meetings of the Clinton investigation.
15644Chairman Goodlatte.
15645
15646How often did you discuss the
15647
15648investigation?
15649Mr. McCabe.
15650
15651Very often.
15652
15653Chairman Goodlatte.
15654
15655And did you, Director Comey, or anyone in
15656
15657FBI management ever consult General Counsel Baker on the language
15658change from "grossly negligent" to "extremely careless"?
15659Mr. McCabe.
15660
15661I don't know if Jim was specifically consulted on
15662
15663that change or not.
15664
15665It is certainly possible.
15666
15667Jim was present for
15668
15669many of our discussions.
15670Chairman Goodlatte.
15671
15672So you do not know what his opinion of that
15673
15674was, or do you?
15675Mr. McCabe.
15676
15677I don't.
15678
15679Chairman Goodlatte.
15680
15681Did Jim Baker have any opinion on drafting
15682
15683a conclusion of the Clinton email investigation before the
15684investigation had concluded?
15685COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
15686
15687228
15688
15689COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
15690
15691Mr. McCabe.
15692
15693I don't remember Jim talking about that.
15694
15695Sorry?
15696
15697Oh, okay.
15698Chairman Goodlatte.
15699Washington field office.
15700
15701You were assistant in charge of the
15702
15703Mr. McCabe.
15704
15705Is that correct?
15706
15707Much happier times, I was.
15708
15709Chairman Goodlatte.
15710
15711You answered today that the Washington
15712
15713field office was the lead field office on the Clinton email
15714investigation?
15715Mr. McCabe.
15716
15717No, sir, that's not been my response.
15718
15719The Clinton
15720
15721email investigation was run and conducted from headquarters.
15722
15723It was
15724
15725not assigned to the Washington field office or any other field office.
15726Chairman Goodlatte.
15727
15728So, regardless of that, I think you
15729
15730testified earlier today that the Washington field office was the office
15731that provided the support for this investigation.
15732Mr. McCabe.
15733
15734Is that --
15735
15736We contributed personnel in the form of what we call
15737
15738TDYs, temporary duty assignments.
15739
15740That is something that the
15741
15742Washington field office -Chairman Goodlatte.
15743
15744They were out of the field office not from
15745
15746working within field office?
15747Mr. McCabe.
15748
15749That's correct.
15750
15751So some folks left WFO and worked
15752
15753out of headquarters on the team for the duration of the investigation,
15754which is a very common occurrence at the Washington field office.
15755Chairman Goodlatte.
15756
15757In your capacity as assistant director in
15758
15759charge of the Washington field office, were you aware of, did you know
15760of the Clinton email investigation before you were promoted to Deputy
15761COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
15762
15763229
15764
15765COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
15766
15767Director?
15768Mr. McCabe.
15769recollection.
15770on it.
15771
15772I wasn't involved in it.
15773
15774I don't have a specific
15775
15776I certainly wasn't involved in it, made no decisions
15777
15778Did I know it existed?
15779
15780publicly announced.
15781
15782I wasn't involved day-to-day.
15783
15784Chairman Goodlatte.
15785Mr. Meadows.
15786
15787I likely knew it existed when it was
15788
15789Hang on just a minute.
15790
15791Mr. Chairman, let me ask one question from one of
15792
15793our other members just in the interest of time while you're looking
15794at that.
15795At what point did you become aware that this investigation was
15796a headquarters special or this term that you use internally?
15797
15798When did
15799
15800you become aware of that when you were actually in the field office -Mr. McCabe.
15801
15802When I was in the field office.
15803
15804Mr. Meadows.
15805Mr. McCabe.
15806
15807At some point --
15808
15809Who made you aware of that?
15810At some point, I became aware of the fact that we
15811
15812had contributed some people to this effort and that would have -Mr. Meadows.
15813Mr. McCabe.
15814
15815So who made you aware of that?
15816That would have come to me from the special agent
15817
15818in charge of our Counterintelligence Division in the field office, and
15819that individual was
15820Mr. Meadows.
15821did
15822
15823And
15824
15825.
15826made you aware of it for what purpose?
15827
15828Why
15829
15830make you aware of it?
15831Mr. McCabe.
15832
15833I don't remember specifically.
15834
15835It may have been
15836
15837simply because in this case in ASAC, fairly high ranking in the field
15838office was no longer around so typically I would meet with the ASACs
15839COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
15840
15841230
15842
15843COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
15844
15845of each of the divisions like every other week or so, and they would
15846explain to me the significant cases.
15847
15848Peter Strzok was no longer there
15849
15850for those sorts of meetings, and it is likely that led to the exchange,
15851but
15852
15853had the authority to send
15854Mr. Meadows.
15855
15856Okay.
15857
15858people to headquarters.
15859
15860And you answered this in a different way,
15861
15862so I want to just get a clarification.
15863matter.
15864
15865The investigation versus a
15866
15867At what point -- I guess is there any FBI definition of what
15868
15869a matter is versus what an investigation is.
15870Mr. McCabe.
15871Mr. Meadows.
15872
15873No, sir.
15874
15875There's no such thing.
15876
15877So who would have made the recommendation, and it
15878
15879may have been asked and answered, but just who would have made the
15880recommendation that we use -- refer to the investigation as a matter?
15881Mr. McCabe.
15882
15883It is my understanding, having been told about this
15884
15885after the fact, that Attorney General Lynch had that exchange with
15886Director Comey, and she said that she preferred -- I don't know whether
15887she preferred that he or that she refer to it as a matter instead of
15888an investigation.
15889Mr. Meadows.
15890
15891And you would do that for what reason?
15892
15893mean -- and, well, that's a speculation.
15894getting there.
15895
15896I
15897
15898Because your counsel was
15899
15900So let me ask you, can you think of any investigative
15901
15902reason why you would do that?
15903Mr. McCabe.
15904Mr. Meadows.
15905
15906No, sir.
15907I yield back to the chairman.
15908
15909Chairman Goodlatte.
15910
15911Thank you.
15912
15913the record deposition exhibit No.
15914
15915Okay.
15916
15917Let me introduce into
15918
159193, which is a letter.
15920
15921COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
15922
15923231
15924
15925COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
15926
15927Ms. Sachsman Grooms.
15928Chairman Goodlatte.
15929
15930We're on 5.
15931Oh, you don't have your own set, and we have
15932
15933our own set?
15934Ms. Sachsman Grooms.
15935Chairman Goodlatte.
15936
15937No, we just introduced them as -So we will call this exhibit 6.
15938
15939Ms. Sachsman Grooms.
15940
15941No, this is 5, sorry.
15942
15943Chairman Goodlatte.
15944
15945This is exhibit 5 now.
15946
15947[McCabe Exhibit No. 5
15948Was marked for identification.]
15949Mr. McCabe.
15950
15951We all agree.
15952
15953Chairman Goodlatte.
15954December 12, 2017.
15955document.
15956
15957It is a letter to me from
15958
15959, dated
15960
15961Specifically, I want you to look at page 43 of this
15962
15963On August 15, 2016, less than 3 months before the
15964
15965Presidential election FBI agent Peter Strzok sent the following text
15966message to FBI lawyer Lisa Page, quote:
15967
15968I want to believe the path
15969
15970you threw out for getting for consideration in Andy's office that there
15971is no way he gets elected, but I'm afraid we can't take that risk.
15972
15973It
15974
15975is like an insurance policy in the unlikely event you die before you're
1597640.
15977And it continues.
15978Mr. McCabe.
15979
15980Do you see that?
15981
15982I do.
15983
15984Chairman Goodlatte.
15985
15986Okay.
15987
15988Besides Strzok and Page, who was at
15989
15990the meeting in your office?
15991Mr. McCabe.
15992
15993I don't know, sir.
15994
15995Chairman Goodlatte.
15996
15997Do you recall this meeting?
15998
15999COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
16000
16001COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
16002
16003Mr. McCabe.
16004
16005232
16006
16007I do not.
16008
16009Chairman Goodlatte.
16010
16011So you don't recall what was discussed in
16012
16013the meeting?
16014Mr. McCabe.
16015this text.
16016
16017I don't have any idea what they are referring to in
16018
16019I don't remember a meeting with Pete Strzok and Lisa Page
16020
16021that fits the description of what they have discussed here.
16022Chairman Goodlatte.
16023
16024Is there anyone else that they could be
16025
16026referring to as "Andy," other than you?
16027Mr. McCabe.
16028
16029I am not aware of anyone.
16030
16031I don't know who they were
16032
16033referring to.
16034Chairman Goodlatte.
16035
16036But you don't recall a discussion that
16037
16038involved Peter Strzok and Lisa Page regarding this matter, which they
16039obviously exchanged between them and neither one disputed the other
16040about the existence of a meeting in Andy's office.
16041Mr. McCabe.
16042
16043I mean, certainly I had many, many interactions and
16044
16045meetings with Peter Strzok and Lisa Page.
16046
16047I do not remember in any
16048
16049meeting with the two of them discussing what he has described in this
16050text, and it is not clear to me that I was present for this conversation
16051between the two of them.
16052Chairman Goodlatte.
16053
16054Do you recall any conversation that you had
16055
16056with Lisa Page in which she threw out for consideration a path?
16057Mr. McCabe.
16058
16059I do not.
16060
16061Chairman Goodlatte.
16062
16063Do you know what risk Peter Strzok is
16064
16065alluding to in that text?
16066Mr. McCabe.
16067
16068I do not.
16069COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
16070
16071COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
16072
16073Chairman Goodlatte.
16074
16075233
16076
16077Do you know what the insurance policy that's
16078
16079referred to in that text?
16080Mr. McCabe.
16081
16082I do not.
16083
16084Chairman Goodlatte.
16085
16086Have you had any conversations with Peter
16087
16088Strzok or Lisa Page since this document was made available to the
16089Congress?
16090Mr. McCabe.
16091
16092No, sir.
16093
16094Chairman Goodlatte.
16095
16096None whatsoever, not just about this but any
16097
16098conversation?
16099Mr. McCabe.
16100
16101Since you're talking about since December 12th?
16102
16103Chairman Goodlatte.
16104
16105No, since it was made available to Congress,
16106
16107which is in the last few weeks.
16108Mr. McCabe.
16109
16110I don't believe I have spoken to either of them in
16111
16112the last few weeks.
16113Chairman Goodlatte.
16114Mr. Meadows.
16115Mr. McCabe.
16116Mr. Meadows.
16117
16118Mr. Chairman, one quick question.
16119Yes, sir.
16120Does your calendar typically identify the
16121
16122participants at meetings?
16123Mr. McCabe.
16124Mr. Meadows.
16125Mr. McCabe.
16126Mr. Meadows.
16127
16128Okay.
16129
16130I mean, on my calendar, I have normally --
16131
16132Yes, yes.
16133And so can you give this committee -My calendar for that day?
16134Well, not just for the day, but if you would
16135
16136just -- I think Senator Grassley is asking for a range of documents.
16137Mr. McCabe.
16138
16139I'm sure he has.
16140COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
16141
16142COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
16143
16144Mr. Meadows.
16145
16146234
16147
16148And he has -- if we could focus on the calendar
16149
16150because maybe it will help us narrow who was there, other than just
16151Lisa and Peter Strzok.
16152Mr. McCabe.
16153
16154Yes.
16155
16156Mr. Meadows.
16157Mr. Brower.
16158
16159That would be helpful.
16160Mr. Chairman, if we could have the committee send
16161
16162over a request form.
16163Mr. Meadows.
16164Mr. McCabe.
16165
16166Formal request.
16167But I should say, sir, that I do have the same sort
16168
16169of notations on my calendar, but I'm also engaged in many meetings that
16170don't end up on the calendar as people drift in and out of the office.
16171Mr. Meadows.
16172Mr. McCabe.
16173
16174You're preaching to the choir, and I get that.
16175Very good.
16176
16177Chairman Goodlatte.
16178
16179Thank you.
16180
16181Now I would like to direct your attention
16182
16183to page 47 of that same DOJ production, which we're marking as majority
16184exhibit 6 now.
16185[McCabe Exhibit No. 6
16186Was marked for identification.]
16187Chairman Goodlatte.
16188Lisa Page wrote:
16189
16190In another text message to Peter Strzok,
16191
16192Re the case, Jim Baker honks you should have it.
16193
16194I'm sure Andy would defer to Bill.
16195
16196But
16197
16198I won't mention.
16199
16200Strzok's response, which came 2 minutes later, was completely
16201redacted.
16202
16203What is this text about?
16204
16205Mr. McCabe.
16206should have it."
16207
16208I have no idea.
16209
16210"Re the case Jim Baker honks you
16211
16212I don't know, sir.
16213COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
16214
16215235
16216
16217COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
16218
16219Chairman Goodlatte.
16220Mr. McCabe.
16221referring to here.
16222
16223Do you know who Bill is?
16224
16225I mean, I don't know who the Bill is they're
16226I could start guessing, but I don't think that would
16227
16228be helpful.
16229Chairman Goodlatte.
16230
16231So "I'm sure Andy would defer to Bill."
16232
16233You
16234
16235have indicated you don't know of any other Andys that would be involved
16236with this.
16237
16238What Bills might be involved with this?
16239
16240Mr. McCabe.
16241
16242Bill Priestap.
16243
16244Chairman Goodlatte.
16245Mr. McCabe.
16246
16247Priestap.
16248
16249Chairman Goodlatte.
16250Mr. McCabe.
16251
16252Bill Riestap?
16253
16254Oh, Priestap.
16255
16256He was Peter's boss at the time.
16257
16258Chairman Goodlatte.
16259
16260Do you know why Mr. Strzok's reply is
16261
16262redacted?
16263Mr. McCabe.
16264
16265I do not.
16266
16267Chairman Goodlatte.
16268
16269And do you know what is contained in the
16270
16271redacted portion of that text?
16272Mr. McCabe.
16273
16274I do not, sir.
16275
16276Chairman Goodlatte.
16277
16278We would ask -- and we'll put this in writing
16279
16280as well -- we would ask we be provided with the redacted portion of
16281that text.
16282
16283Were the text messages sent and received on Peter Strzok's
16284
16285FBI-issued phone?
16286Mr. McCabe.
16287
16288That is my assumption, sir, and that is based on the
16289
16290fact that the IG was able to get the text messages.
16291to him in the course of his investigation.
16292
16293They were produced
16294
16295It is my assumption that
16296
16297COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
16298
16299COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
16300
16301236
16302
16303he was able to get those texts because they are collected on our FBI
16304phones.
16305Chairman Goodlatte.
16306Mr. McCabe.
16307
16308How about Page?
16309
16310But I don't know -- I can't see the phone number,
16311
16312so I can't confirm that for you.
16313Chairman Goodlatte.
16314Mr. McCabe.
16315
16316All right.
16317
16318I have the same understanding with respect to Ms.
16319
16320Page's texts.
16321Chairman Goodlatte.
16322
16323Has the FBI's Office of Professional
16324
16325Responsibility received a referral on the actions of Strzok and Page?
16326Mr. McCabe.
16327
16328Not to my knowledge because the matters are under
16329
16330investigation by the IG, and typically the IG concludes their work,
16331they produce a report with recommendations, and at that point, it goes
16332to comes back to FBI OPR for adjudication.
16333Chairman Goodlatte.
16334
16335That's the normal process.
16336
16337Are there divisions at FBI headquarters
16338
16339that refuse to display a photograph of Donald Trump that formerly
16340displayed photographs of President Obama?
16341Mr. McCabe.
16342
16343Not to my knowledge, sir.
16344
16345Chairman Goodlatte.
16346Mr. McCabe.
16347
16348None that I'm aware of.
16349
16350Chairman Goodlatte.
16351have.
16352
16353How about FBI field offices?
16354
16355All right.
16356
16357That's all the questions we
16358
16359Do you have more questions?
16360Ms. Sachsman Grooms.
16361Ms. Anderson.
16362
16363Yes, sir, but just a couple.
16364
16365Mr. Chairman, before we leave your line of
16366
16367questioning, I just wondered if we might be able to clear up your request
16368COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
16369
16370237
16371
16372COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
16373
16374with respect to the redactions of one of the text messages.
16375
16376My
16377
16378understanding is that the information that was redacted was redacted
16379for two reasons.
16380
16381One is as indicated in our cover letter it reflects
16382
16383sensitive law enforcement information, and it was also irrelevant to
16384the matter at hand.
16385
16386It has no relevance to the Clinton email
16387
16388investigation that we could discern or the Russian matter.
16389Chairman Goodlatte.
16390
16391Do you have a reason why the -- we cannot
16392
16393see that and conclude for ourselves that it is not relevant?
16394Ms. Anderson.
16395
16396It reflects sensitive operational equities of the
16397
16398FBI that are unrelated to anything that is -Mr. Meadows.
16399
16400So we're going to need -- counselor, we're going
16401
16402to need -- one of the issues, and I will acknowledge a cooperative spirit
16403here today, but in part of the documents that have been produced to
16404this -- both committees the redactions have been in my characterization
16405overzealous, and so, in doing that, what we really need is really what
16406statute.
16407
16408You know, agencies typically will redact a lot more sometimes
16409
16410for embarrassment sometimes for sensitivity, but we need these
16411committees need to make their own conclusions.
16412
16413Now we'll work with
16414
16415you in terms of anything that is of a sensitive nature, but at the same
16416time, we need to be the ones making those determinations, not the
16417agency.
16418Chairman Goodlatte.
16419might help you.
16420
16421We can do that in a couple of manners that
16422
16423One would be to do it in a classified setting.
16424
16425Another
16426
16427would be to do it in an in camera setting where we examine the document
16428but don't keep the document.
16429
16430So we would ask you to take that back
16431
16432COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
16433
16434COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
16435
16436238
16437
16438and consider that request.
16439Mr. Meadows.
16440
16441And I guess in my reviewing of the documents that
16442
16443you have produced today -- and we appreciate that; we know that you're
16444working on another set of documents, and I want to acknowledge
16445that -- is the more unredacted they can be, the less perhaps precise
16446we need to be with some of these.
16447
16448I guess we have gotten full pages
16449
16450of redactions that quite frankly don't have footnotes or the reasons
16451why they were redacted on some of the submissions made to date, and
16452so, if we can work with you on that for further clarification and still
16453understand that we want to keep the integrity of the FBI intact.
16454Mr. Schools.
16455
16456I understand that, Congressman, and I think, with
16457
16458respect to this document, it should be clear we're not redacting
16459information that is embarrassing, so we'll take it back, but I can
16460assure you Ms. Anderson and I -Mr. Meadows.
16461
16462Having dealt with oversight of the Secret Service
16463
16464I understand that very clearly in a highly sensitive manner where there
16465was all kinds of things in the press and The Washington Post that had
16466one guideline and one particular narrative that was not necessarily
16467accurate, I get that, and I guess what I'm wanting to do is work with
16468your counsel and so forth as we can do that, and I think we all have
16469a spirit of making sure that the truth comes out, and in doing that,
16470we would just like to work with you a little bit more closely on that.
16471Ms. Sachsman Grooms.
16472
16473I know it has been a really long day, so
16474
16475thank you very much for your patience.
16476Mr. McCabe.
16477
16478Certainly.
16479COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
16480
16481239
16482
16483COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
16484
16485Ms. Sachsman Grooms.
16486
16487I just wanted to clarify a couple different
16488
16489things that came up earlier today.
16490
16491Earlier today, a couple rounds ago,
16492
16493Representative Rutherford listed out a list of things that he described
16494that you had previously said were unique about the Clinton
16495investigation.
16496
16497He didn't ask you a question specific to that and --
16498
16499Mr. Brower.
16500
16501I don't think Mr. Rutherford has been here today.
16502
16503Are you thinking of someone else?
16504Ms. Sachsman Grooms.
16505Mr. Brower.
16506
16507Mr. Ratcliffe.
16508
16509I'm sorry.
16510
16511Thank you very much.
16512
16513Ms. Sachsman Grooms.
16514
16515And I'm not sure that that list was an
16516
16517accurate portrayal of what you had said earlier, but regardless, I think
16518I'm interested in you just repeating for us, can you just tell us exactly
16519what you meant when you said that the Clinton investigation and the
16520case had unique aspects to it?
16521Mr. McCabe.
16522
16523Sure.
16524
16525So there were -- I mean, every case is
16526
16527different, and they all have their own challenges.
16528
16529There were
16530
16531challenges associated with this investigation that I don't think it
16532is inaccurate to think of them as being unique.
16533
16534The fact that we were
16535
16536conducting an extensive kind of forensic reconstruction of a personal
16537email system and servers and IT systems that had been lost or no longer
16538in service or had been moved changed, those were unique challenges.
16539The fact that we were doing it out of headquarters in an effort to keep
16540it to a very small, close, tight group of folks to work together to
16541limit the possibility of, you know, information from the case leaking
16542out in a way that would be damaging, that was unique.
16543COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
16544
16545I mean,
16546
16547240
16548
16549COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
16550
16551headquarters-managed cases are not -- are definitely not our normal
16552kind of -- it is not the common way of doing business, but called for
16553under some circumstances like these.
16554
16555The fact that we were doing an
16556
16557investigation of a candidate who was currently in the middle of a very
16558high-profile political campaign was unique and presented not
16559challenges but sensitivities, things to be aware of in a heightened
16560kind of media-focused environment, a media that was aware basically
16561of our involvement in this investigation from its inception, and the
16562case had been publicly acknowledged not long into it.
16563all kinds of factors that made this tough.
16564
16565So there were
16566
16567There were challenging
16568
16569issues of attorney/client privilege attached to almost every piece of
16570evidence we had to get our hands on.
16571
16572There were many, many lawyers
16573
16574involved in every discussion of access and interviews and things of
16575that nature, so there were all kinds of things that made the decisions
16576in this case tough.
16577Ms. Sachsman Grooms.
16578
16579So I understand you're saying there are
16580
16581things that made it challenging and difficult and that every case is
16582different, and therefore, every case is unique.
16583
16584But when you described
16585
16586this case was unique, do you mean like one of a kind, there's none other,
16587or are we talking about something that is distinctively different than
16588everything else?
16589Mr. McCabe.
16590
16591I am not aware of a similar fact pattern.
16592
16593I have
16594
16595never encountered this same combination of factors where we're, you
16596know, investigating a former Secretary of State for using a personal
16597email service and that person is now running for President of the United
16598COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
16599
16600COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
16601
16602241
16603
16604States, I'm not aware of that fact pattern ever coming up again.
16605
16606I
16607
16608hope it never comes up again, so I'm hoping for unique.
16609Ms. Anderson.
16610
16611Respectfully, this is territory that Deputy
16612
16613Director McCabe has well covered in the 9 hours that he has been here,
16614and so we would ask that you move on to new territory.
16615Ms. Sachsman Grooms.
16616
16617Would you describe a counterintelligence
16618
16619investigation into a candidate's campaign and its contacts with Russia
16620during the time period before the election to be also a unique
16621circumstance?
16622Mr. McCabe.
16623
16624Can you give me that again?
16625
16626Ms. Sachsman Grooms.
16627
16628Yes.
16629
16630Would you describe a
16631
16632counterintelligence investigation into a candidate for President and
16633his campaign's contacts with Russia as being unique?
16634Mr. Schools.
16635
16636That's outside the scope, as well.
16637
16638Ms. Sachsman Grooms.
16639Mr. Schools.
16640
16641It is fully inside of the scope.
16642
16643I don't think it is.
16644
16645The scope of the letter we
16646
16647got indicated questions with respect to the Russian investigation
16648pertained to whether or not the discussion you had public disclosure
16649or not.
16650Ms. Sachsman Grooms.
16651
16652Yes, and the decision surrounding the
16653
16654distinctions between the FBI's treatment of Donald Trump's
16655investigation and Hillary Clinton's investigation are centered around
16656the disparate treatment of the two, and my question is, was that also
16657a unique circumstance?
16658Mr. McCabe.
16659
16660Yes.
16661COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
16662
16663242
16664
16665COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
16666
16667Ms. Sachsman Grooms.
16668
16669I believe you, on that same topic, right,
16670
16671which is the FBI's decision not to publicly announce the investigation
16672into campaign associates of then-candidate Donald Trump and their
16673contacts with Russia before the election, I believe that you said
16674earlier, and just correct me if I am wrong, that that was an issue
16675that -- the decision itself was never made to not make it public because
16676you were following the Department policy to not speak about an open
16677investigation.
16678
16679Is that right?
16680
16681Mr. McCabe.
16682
16683Yes.
16684
16685It is normal practice, particularly at the
16686
16687initiation of something like a counterintelligence investigation, not
16688to discuss it publicly.
16689Ms. Sachsman Grooms.
16690
16691And Director Comey, when he came in and
16692
16693testified before the Judiciary Committee in September of 2016,
16694explained that that was the standard, but that there were exceptions
16695to that, and the Hillary Clinton case met those exceptions.
16696
16697One of
16698
16699those exceptions was, and I am quoting, "There's an exception for that,"
16700quote, "when there's a need for the public to be reassured, when it
16701is obvious, it is apparent, given our activities, public activities
16702that the investigation is ongoing."
16703
16704Were you ever in a meeting or in
16705
16706a discussion where you thoughtfully analyzed whether those exceptions
16707applied to the Donald Trump investigation?
16708Mr. McCabe.
16709
16710I don't remember being in a meeting that fits that
16711
16712description.
16713Ms. Sachsman Grooms.
16714
16715So is it fair to say that the FBI, and
16716
16717certainly yourself never considered whether those exceptions applied
16718COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
16719
16720243
16721
16722COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
16723
16724to the Donald Trump investigation?
16725Mr. Schools.
16726
16727Can I interject one thing?
16728
16729it as the Donald Trump investigation.
16730
16731You are characterizing
16732
16733Director Comey announced the
16734
16735investigation publicly in March of 2016.
16736
16737I am fine with you using that
16738
16739as shorthand for what he said the investigation was, but apart from
16740that, I don't want to mischaracterize or -Chairman Goodlatte.
16741
16742I would like you to clarify, March of 2016
16743
16744or 2017?
16745Mr. Schools.
16746
167472017, thank you.
16748
16749Ms. Sachsman Grooms.
16750Mr. Schools.
16751
16752I will rephrase.
16753
16754I am happy to.
16755
16756Thanks.
16757
16758Ms. Sachsman Grooms.
16759
16760Is it fair to say that you, and as far as
16761
16762you know no one at the FBI, ever thoughtfully considered whether the
16763investigation that was the counterintelligence investigation into
16764then-candidate Donald Trump's campaign's contacts with Russians met
16765the exceptions to the general rule not to make information public?
16766Mr. McCabe.
16767
16768Well, I think eventually, we had that discussion,
16769
16770because eventually we made that decision.
16771
16772And the Director sought and
16773
16774received the Department's authorization to make that investigation
16775public in March of '17.
16776Ms. Sachsman Grooms.
16777
16778Is it fair to say that that consideration
16779
16780did not occur before the election?
16781Mr. McCabe.
16782
16783I think that's fair.
16784
16785Well, no.
16786
16787I want to be
16788
16789perfectly clear, we initiated -- I don't want to get too far into this,
16790but we don't typically -- we wouldn't, under really any circumstances,
16791COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
16792
16793244
16794
16795COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
16796
16797consider discussing publicly a case that we had just opened.
16798
16799Does that
16800
16801make sense?
16802Ms. Sachsman Grooms.
16803Mr. Meadows.
16804
16805Yes.
16806
16807Let's be cautious in terms of a classified setting
16808
16809and what would be there.
16810
16811To the extent that you can do it in a
16812
16813nonclassified setting, certainly.
16814Mr. McCabe.
16815
16816Our normal practice is to not discuss publicly the
16817
16818existence of a case.
16819
16820And there are exceptional circumstances under
16821
16822which you would do that.
16823
16824It would be very hard to justify those
16825
16826circumstances at the very beginning of a case, because you don't know
16827what you have.
16828
16829I know there are other situations where, like, if we
16830
16831show up at the site of a terrorist attack, and it's perfectly obvious
16832to the public that what we're doing, picking up evidence off the ground,
16833we are investigating.
16834
16835There are times when you publicly admit, even
16836
16837at the beginning of a case.
16838
16839But in the example that you are referring
16840
16841to, we did not.
16842Ms. Sachsman Grooms.
16843
16844So I hear you saying, and correct me if I
16845
16846am wrong, that now thinking back on it, you would have decided it didn't
16847meet the exceptions.
16848
16849But my question is, at the time, before the
16850
16851election, did you think about whether it met the exceptions?
16852Mr. McCabe.
16853
16854I am not saying that thinking back on it, it did or
16855
16856did not meet the exceptions.
16857
16858What I will say is I do not recall going
16859
16860through that process about the case you have referenced before the
16861election, because it would not have been our normal practice to do so.
16862Ms. Sachsman Grooms.
16863
16864So I think it's probably fair to say that
16865
16866COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
16867
16868245
16869
16870COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
16871
16872today's questioning has been somewhat repetitive.
16873
16874Were some of the
16875
16876questions asked today and answered by you today also addressed at your
16877previous interview with the House Permanent Select Committee on
16878Intelligence?
16879Mr. Brower.
16880
16881Let me just object.
16882
16883That interview, I think as you
16884
16885know, was in a classified setting, and the witness is simply not going
16886to address anything that happened in that setting.
16887Mr. Meadows.
16888
16889Yeah.
16890
16891I think that's well beyond the scope.
16892
16893I
16894
16895mean to suggest that you got one set of questions and compare that to
16896what we are doing here.
16897
16898Obviously, what we've tried to do is ask and
16899
16900answer questions within the scope of what was defined.
16901
16902To compare it
16903
16904to other questions and answers that were handled in a classified setting
16905would not be appropriate.
16906Ms. Sachsman Grooms.
16907
16908Well, certainly, none of the questions
16909
16910asked or answered today called for classified information.
16911
16912So I can't
16913
16914imagine that it would be classified -Chairman Goodlatte.
16915
16916If you will, there were a few answers that
16917
16918were not answered because they were classified questions.
16919but there were a few.
16920
16921Not many,
16922
16923And while I understand your objective here, I
16924
16925think the solution to that is to work through the HPSCI Committee and
16926look at that -Ms. Sachsman Grooms.
16927
16928My objective is not to find out what HPSCI
16929
16930asked you, or to get the answers to that.
16931
16932My point was just that today's
16933
16934interview with was somewhat repetitive of previous interviews that you
16935have had with Congress.
16936
16937Is that accurate?
16938COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
16939
16940246
16941
16942COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
16943
16944Chairman Goodlatte.
16945Mr. Meadows.
16946
16947That's definitely outside the scope.
16948
16949Again, that would have cause the witness to have
16950
16951to characterize what he said in a classified setting to give an opinion
16952on that.
16953
16954And I think that's well beyond the scope of what is there.
16955
16956Ms. Anderson.
16957
16958I think we have been very patient.
16959
16960Ms. Sachsman Grooms.
16961Ms. Anderson.
16962Mr. Meadows.
16963
16964So you are refusing to answer that?
16965
16966He is not refusing to answer that.
16967It's beyond the scope.
16968
16969And let the record reflect
16970
16971that.
16972Mr. McCabe.
16973
16974I have been informed that it's beyond the scope.
16975
16976Chairman Goodlatte.
16977Mr. Hiller.
16978
16979Good answer.
16980
16981Thank you for going the distance with us, sir.
16982
16983am going to try a new topic.
16984
16985True Pundit is a website that began
16986
16987publication on June 9, 2016.
16988
16989I know.
16990
16991I
16992
16993Have you ever heard of True
16994
16995Pundit?
16996Mr. McCabe.
16997
16998I have.
16999
17000Mr. Hiller.
17001
17002In the past, it has claimed to have "unique insight,"
17003
17004that's a quote, into FBI operations.
17005
17006There is an article posted on
17007
17008June 12, 2016, 3 days after it went up, that says quote, "True Pundit
17009has folks who work for the FBI and other agencies on staff.
17010
17011We are
17012
17013not your usual conglomerate of media has-been's or never-were's,"
17014unquote.
17015
17016Are you aware of any current or former employee of the FBI
17017
17018on staff at True Pundit?
17019Mr. McCabe.
17020
17021I am not.
17022[McCabe Exhibit No. 7
17023COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
17024
17025247
17026
17027COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
17028
17029Was marked for identification.]
17030Mr. Hiller.
17031please.
17032
17033I am going to introduce Deposition Exhibit 7,
17034
17035So on October 24, 2016, True Pundit published an article
17036
17037contained in this email chain titled "FBI Director Lobbied Against
17038Criminal Charges For Hillary After Clinton Insider Paid His Wife
17039$700,000."
17040
17041I am not going to ask you to comment on the veracity of
17042
17043this article.
17044Mr. McCabe.
17045
17046Thank you.
17047
17048Mr. Hiller.
17049
17050But are you familiar with this article?
17051
17052Mr. McCabe.
17053
17054I am.
17055
17056Mr. Hiller.
17057
17058On October 24, you forwarded this article in an
17059
17060email to Director Comey, and in that email, you said "FYI, heavyweight
17061source."
17062
17063By "heavyweight source," did you mean to say that the source
17064
17065cited in this article could actually be a senior official at the FBI?
17066Mr. McCabe.
17067recollection.
17068
17069It's going to take me a minute to refresh my
17070
17071Okay.
17072
17073Mr. Hiller.
17074
17075I see it.
17076
17077What was your question again?
17078
17079The question was when you said "heavyweight source,"
17080
17081did you mean to say that the source cited in that article could actually
17082be a senior official at the FBI?
17083Mr. McCabe.
17084
17085Honestly, I don't -- I don't remember what
17086
17087exact -- I may have been referring to the fact that it was a True Pundit
17088article in a sarcastic way.
17089
17090I don't remember exactly what I was
17091
17092referring to by the characterization "heavyweight."
17093
17094I was concerned
17095
17096about the sourcing and who might be sharing these wildly inaccurate
17097and just ridiculous claims with an online journalist.
17098COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
17099
17100And, of course,
17101
17102248
17103
17104COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
17105
17106Director Comey's response to me talked about John Giacalone, who is
17107mentioned in the piece.
17108Mr. Hiller.
17109
17110Right.
17111
17112I suspected it might be sarcastic.
17113
17114So in
17115
17116Director Comey's response he says, quote, "This still reads to me like
17117someone not involved in the investigation at all, maybe somebody who
17118heard rumors, inaccurate, about why John left.
17119
17120There is no way John
17121
17122would say he left because of the investigation, both because he agreed
17123with the way we were handling it, and because so many of us know he
17124was redacted.
17125
17126This strikes me as lower-level folks who admire John,
17127
17128which is fine, because I do, telling yarns."
17129response.
17130
17131Just breaking down that
17132
17133Do you read that response to mean that Director Comey,
17134
17135whether or not he believed it was a heavyweight source, whatever that
17136comment meant, he does believe that, in fact, the source of this article
17137is coming from within the FBI, lower-level folks who were telling yarns?
17138Mr. McCabe.
17139
17140I think what he is saying is he doesn't think it's
17141
17142John, right?
17143Mr. Hiller.
17144
17145Okay.
17146
17147Mr. McCabe.
17148
17149And then he describes who it might be.
17150
17151lower-level folks.
17152
17153It could be
17154
17155And so that's how I take his response.
17156
17157Mr. Hiller.
17158
17159Lower-level folks in what organization.
17160
17161Mr. McCabe.
17162
17163Within the FBI.
17164
17165Mr. Hiller.
17166
17167Okay.
17168
17169Mr. McCabe.
17170
17171Of course it could have been people outside the FBI,
17172
17173or former FBI employees.
17174
17175I don't think either of us knew.
17176
17177know as we sit here today who the source was.
17178COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
17179
17180I don't
17181
17182COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
17183
17184Mr. Hiller.
17185
17186Okay.
17187
17188249
17189
17190Did the FBI ever conduct any investigation
17191
17192into leaks like these?
17193Mr. McCabe.
17194
17195We initiated many leak inquiries at that time.
17196
17197I
17198
17199don't remember off the top of my head whether or not this article was
17200one of those.
17201
17202But to be clear, a leak investigation means something
17203
17204specific to the FBI.
17205information.
17206
17207It's the investigation of a leak of classified
17208
17209But there are also inquiries into the unauthorized
17210
17211disclosure of FBI information that's not classified to the media, which
17212is also proscribed by FBI policy.
17213
17214We see those things -- they are of
17215
17216course similar, but a little bit different.
17217Mr. Hiller.
17218
17219I see the distinction.
17220
17221Did you conduct any informal
17222
17223inquiries into the unauthorized disclosure.
17224Mr. McCabe.
17225
17226Of this article?
17227
17228I don't remember.
17229
17230Mr. Hiller.
17231
17232On articles like this.
17233
17234Mr. McCabe.
17235
17236On articles like this, yes.
17237
17238Mr. Hiller.
17239
17240Did you refer any of those investigations or
17241
17242inquiries to the Department of Justice?
17243Mr. McCabe.
17244
17245Typically, we, if it's our information that we're
17246
17247looking into, we can initiate those cases without going to the
17248Department of Justice first.
17249
17250And if it's an inquiry into whether or
17251
17252not an employee may have made an unauthorized disclosure of not
17253classified, that's something typically that our internal inspection
17254division would handle.
17255
17256Whereas if it's a leak of classified, that
17257
17258would be an investigation handled by our counterintelligence division.
17259Mr. Hiller.
17260
17261Okay.
17262
17263Just to step back and get a sense of the
17264
17265COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
17266
17267250
17268
17269COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
17270
17271timeline around this article?
17272Mr. McCabe.
17273
17274Yes.
17275
17276Mr. Hiller.
17277
17278On July 5th, 2016, Director Comey announced that the
17279
17280FBI would recommend no criminal charges against Hillary Clinton.
17281
17282Is
17283
17284that your recollection?
17285Mr. McCabe.
17286
17287On July 5th, that's right.
17288
17289Mr. Hiller.
17290
17291Okay.
17292
17293On October 22nd, 2016, the New York field
17294
17295office of the FBI took possession of Anthony Wiener's computer from
17296the New York Police Department.
17297
17298Is that correct?
17299
17300Mr. McCabe.
17301
17302I don't know what day they took possession of it.
17303
17304Mr. Hiller.
17305
17306Does that sound about right?
17307
17308Mr. McCabe.
17309
17310I don't know what day the New York field office --
17311
17312Mr. Hiller.
17313
17314It has been, in fact, widely reported that on
17315
17316October 2, the New York field office took possession of that computer.
17317Mr. McCabe.
17318
17319Okay.
17320
17321Mr. Hiller.
17322
17323Was Director Comey informed that the FBI had taken
17324
17325possession of that computer?
17326Mr. McCabe.
17327
17328He learned of it eventually.
17329
17330I can't tell you when
17331
17332he was -- when he knew first.
17333Mr. Hiller.
17334
17335Do you think he learned about it on that day?
17336
17337Ms. Anderson.
17338Mr. McCabe knows.
17339Mr. Hiller.
17340
17341You are asking what Mr. Comey knows, not what
17342So if you could rephrase your question.
17343
17344Certainly.
17345
17346When did you become aware that the FBI
17347
17348had taken possession of that computer?
17349Mr. McCabe.
17350
17351It would have been in the beginning of October.
17352COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
17353
17354251
17355
17356COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
17357
17358Mr. Hiller.
17359
17360Okay.
17361
17362And were you or Director Comey informed that
17363
17364the computer might contain additional emails that could be relevant
17365to the Clinton investigation?
17366Mr. McCabe.
17367
17368I was.
17369
17370Mr. Hiller.
17371
17372And when were you informed of that?
17373
17374Mr. McCabe.
17375
17376I don't know the specific day, but it was in the
17377
17378beginning of October.
17379Mr. Hiller.
17380
17381In the beginning of October.
17382
17383Did you or Director
17384
17385Comey instruct the New York field office to search that computer for
17386any additional information that might be relevant to the Clinton
17387investigation?
17388Mr. McCabe.
17389
17390Are we still within scope?
17391
17392Mr. Hiller.
17393
17394I believe that this is all relevant to the decision
17395
17396to reopen the Clinton investigation.
17397Mr. McCabe.
17398
17399Okay.
17400
17401We are well within the scope.
17402
17403Just checking.
17404
17405Sorry.
17406
17407Can you repeat the
17408
17409question?
17410Mr. Hiller.
17411
17412Certainly.
17413
17414Did you or Director Comey instruct the
17415
17416New York field office to search that computer for any additional
17417information that might be relevant to the Clinton investigation?
17418Mr. McCabe.
17419
17420So I first learned of the existence of the computer
17421
17422and that it might have information on it relevant to the Clinton
17423investigation in a telephone conversation with Bill Sweeney, who was
17424and still is the ADIC of the New York field office.
17425
17426My best
17427
17428recollection is as a result of that conversation I spoke to my
17429counterintelligence division, likely Bill Priestap, but I don't
17430COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
17431
17432COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
17433
17434252
17435
17436have -- I would have to check that -- and told them to get with the
17437New York field office, figure out what do we have, and come back to
17438me with a recommendation of a path forward.
17439
17440That was the first I knew
17441
17442of the existence of the Wiener laptop material.
17443Mr. Hiller.
17444
17445Okay.
17446
17447And that was in early October?
17448
17449Mr. McCabe.
17450
17451That was in early October.
17452
17453Mr. Hiller.
17454
17455Okay.
17456
17457On October 28, Director Comey wrote a letter
17458
17459to eight congressional committees informing us that the FBI had learned
17460of the existence of these emails and intended to reopen the inquiry.
17461And on October 30, the FBI finally obtained a search warrant to search
17462that computer.
17463
17464Does that timeline seem about right?
17465
17466Mr. McCabe.
17467
17468I don't have personal knowledge of those details
17469
17470because, as I said earlier, I was not involved in the meetings and the
17471decisions that led to that.
17472
17473That's my understanding from reading open
17474
17475source reporting.
17476Mr. Hiller.
17477
17478Okay.
17479
17480On October 25 and 26, this was in advance of
17481
17482Director Comey's letter to the Hill -Mr. McCabe.
17483
17484Yes.
17485
17486Mr. Hiller.
17487
17488-- in a series of television interviews, former New
17489
17490York Mayor Rudy Giuliani suggested that the Trump campaign, quote, "has
17491a couple of things up our sleeves that should turn things around."
17492
17493Do
17494
17495you recall him giving television interviews like that?
17496Mr. McCabe.
17497
17498Generally, yes.
17499
17500Mr. Hiller.
17501
17502On October 28, 2016, in an interview on the Lars
17503
17504Larson radio program, Mayor Giuliani said he was in contact, quote,
17505COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
17506
17507253
17508
17509COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
17510
17511"with a few active agents who obviously don't want to identify
17512themselves."
17513
17514Do you recall him making that statement or statements
17515
17516like that?
17517Mr. McCabe.
17518
17519I have a general recollection of him making
17520
17521statements like that, but I don't -- I don't know that I have ever heard
17522the Lars Larson program.
17523Mr. Hiller.
17524
17525I don't think I have listened to it either.
17526
17527On
17528
17529October 4th, 2016, in an appearance on FOX and Friends, Mayor Giuliani
17530was asked if he knew about the FBI's possession of the laptop before
17531Director Comey wrote to the Hill?
17532Mr. McCabe.
17533
17534I am sorry, what date was that?
17535
17536Mr. Hiller.
17537
17538November 4th.
17539
17540Mr. McCabe.
17541
17542Okay.
17543
17544Mr. Hiller.
17545
17546He responded, quote, "Did I hear about it?
17547
17548darned right I heard about it."
17549
17550You are
17551
17552Do you recall him making a statement
17553
17554like that?
17555Mr. McCabe.
17556
17557I don't remember that.
17558
17559Mr. Hiller.
17560
17561You said earlier that you believed it was possible
17562
17563that somebody inside the FBI was providing information, accurate or
17564not, to True Pundit.
17565
17566Is that correct?
17567
17568Mr. McCabe.
17569
17570It's possible, yes.
17571
17572Mr. Hiller.
17573
17574Is it possible that sources within the FBI were also
17575
17576talking to Mayor Giuliani?
17577Mr. McCabe.
17578
17579It's possible, yes.
17580
17581Mr. Hiller.
17582
17583Was Director Comey aware of those statements at the
17584COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
17585
17586254
17587
17588COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
17589
17590time?
17591Ms. Anderson.
17592Mr. McCabe.
17593
17594Again, you are asking --
17595
17596I couldn't answer that.
17597
17598I don't know what Director
17599
17600Comey knew.
17601Mr. Hiller.
17602
17603Do you believe these leaks -- not leaks, these
17604
17605unauthorized disclosures of information, came predominantly from the
17606same individual or same group of individuals?
17607Mr. McCabe.
17608
17609I don't know the answer to that.
17610
17611Mr. Hiller.
17612
17613Do you believe these leaks -- these unauthorized
17614
17615disclosures of information came largely from the New York field office?
17616Ms. Anderson.
17617
17618Asking for more speculation.
17619
17620This is not a
17621
17622productive line of inquiry.
17623Mr. McCabe.
17624
17625I don't know.
17626
17627I don't know that.
17628
17629Mr. Hiller.
17630
17631What did the New York field office do with Anthony
17632
17633Wiener's computer from October 2, or from whenever in early October
17634you informed them to take those additional steps, until October 30,
17635when they obtained a search warrant to actually go into that laptop
17636and do forensic work?
17637Mr. McCabe.
17638time.
17639
17640I don't know specifically what they did during that
17641
17642I reengaged on the issue the beginning of that last week in
17643
17644October.
17645
17646So what was the 27 -- probably 24, something like that, of
17647
17648October, in or around that time period, when I was asked about it by
17649someone at the Department of Justice.
17650Mr. Hiller.
17651
17652And when you reengaged, had they, in fact, done any
17653
17654forensic work yet?
17655COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
17656
17657255
17658
17659COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
17660
17661Mr. McCabe.
17662
17663Not that I am aware of.
17664
17665Mr. Hiller.
17666
17667Why not?
17668
17669Mr. McCabe.
17670
17671I don't know.
17672
17673I don't know.
17674
17675It was essentially it
17676
17677came back to my attention, and I asked my team what's -- kind of what's
17678going on with that?
17679
17680I need a status on this, on the matter.
17681
17682Mr. Hiller.
17683
17684Do you believe the delay was deliberate?
17685
17686Mr. McCabe.
17687
17688I don't have any reason to believe there was a
17689
17690deliberate delay.
17691Mr. Hiller.
17692
17693On October 29, 2016, the day after Director Comey
17694
17695wrote to the Hill, The New York Times reported that, quote, "Although
17696Mr. Comey told Congress this summer that the Clinton investigation was
17697complete, he believed that if word of the new emails leaked out, and
17698it was sure to leak out, he concluded, he risked being accused of
17699misleading Congress."
17700
17701Did you read that article?
17702
17703Mr. McCabe.
17704
17705I don't remember.
17706
17707Mr. Hiller.
17708
17709Is that account accurate?
17710
17711Mr. McCabe.
17712
17713I was not discussing this matter with Director Comey
17714
17715at that time.
17716
17717So I can't tell you exactly what was going into his
17718
17719decision-making.
17720Mr. Hiller.
17721
17722Was word of the new emails sure to leak out?
17723
17724Was
17725
17726it likely?
17727Mr. McCabe.
17728to do.
17729
17730You are asking me to speculate.
17731
17732A lot of things were leaking out.
17733
17734That's hard for me
17735
17736That was our perception at
17737
17738that time.
17739Mr. Hiller.
17740
17741Was any part of the FBI's decision to send us the
17742COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
17743
17744256
17745
17746COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
17747
17748October 28 letter wanting to reopen the investigation based, in part,
17749on the threat of unauthorized disclosures of information like the ones
17750you described in the email there?
17751Mr. McCabe.
17752
17753I can't answer that question.
17754
17755Ms. Anderson.
17756
17757Mr. McCabe has already testified he was not
17758
17759involved in that decision.
17760Ms. Sachsman Grooms.
17761Mr. McCabe.
17762
17763Sure.
17764
17765Thank you very much.
17766Thank you.
17767
17768Chairman Goodlatte.
17769
17770Mr. McCabe, it's been 9 hours and
17771
1777225 minutes since you arrived here this morning.
17773
17774And we thank you for
17775
17776being very, very generous with your time, and for answering our
17777questions.
17778
17779We may have additional questions.
17780
17781We certainly will
17782
17783submit some related to the documents we discussed earlier in writing,
17784and we may submit some to you in writing as well.
17785answer those promptly.
17786
17787We hope you will
17788
17789And again, thank you for giving us an entire
17790
17791day of your life.
17792Mr. McCabe.
17793
17794Sir, I understand you have important work to do.
17795
17796I
17797
17798have tried to answer each and every one of your questions in the most
17799complete and transparent way that I possibly can.
17800
17801I know that my
17802
17803recollections are not perfect about events that took place quite some
17804ago in a very busy period.
17805
17806For that, I apologize.
17807
17808But it's my pleasure
17809
17810to try to help you with that work in any way that I can.
17811Chairman Goodlatte.
17812Ms. Anderson.
17813
17814Thank you.
17815
17816Before we conclude, I have one request for the
17817
17818record, which is, Chairman Goodlatte, at the beginning of the
17819COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
17820
17821257
17822
17823COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
17824
17825interview, you mentioned the confidentiality of the interview.
17826Mr. McCabe, in his testimony, has identified a number of FBI personnel
17827who have little, if any, relationship to the matter at hand, who are
17828not SES level employees.
17829
17830They are on the GS scale.
17831
17832sure what their pay grade is.
17833
17834I am not quite
17835
17836But I would ask on behalf of the FBI
17837
17838that you respect the confidentiality with respect to those individuals'
17839names.
17840Chairman Goodlatte.
17841
17842I agree with that statement, not just with
17843
17844regard to those names, but the testimony of Mr. McCabe was taken under
17845confidential circumstances, and it should remain in that fashion until
17846some discussion about disposition of this entire investigation takes
17847place.
17848Mr. Meadows.
17849
17850And I would reiterate for the record, if you become
17851
17852aware or you hear of questions that have -- here is what I would ask
17853of you, if you will let both chairmen know if you get inquiries from
17854reporters with specificity that would indicate that there is a leak
17855that has come from this particular confidential inquiry, if you would
17856please let certainly the ranking members and the chairmen know so that
17857we can hopefully adjust that, because confidentiality is a key
17858component of this.
17859Mr. McCabe.
17860
17861Yes, sir.
17862
17863Chairman Goodlatte.
17864Ms. Jackson Lee.
17865
17866Thank you.
17867
17868If I might add our appreciation.
17869
17870you said about your recollection.
17871
17872I heard what
17873
17874Thank you for cooperating with us.
17875
17876And for members on the Oversight and Judiciary Committee, Democratic
17877COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
17878
17879258
17880
17881COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
17882
17883members, we thank you for appearing here.
17884
17885And we may have an
17886
17887opportunity to hear from you again, because I believe what we should
17888be doing is not speculation, but to act on facts.
17889
17890And so, I thank you
17891
17892for giving us some foundation to begin to continue our work based on
17893facts, and to answer questions, but most importantly, not choose to
17894select special counsels based on bias and opinion, but based on the
17895law, and based on the facts.
17896process.
17897
17898So thank you for contributing to that
17899
17900Thank you for your service again.
17901
17902Mr. McCabe.
17903
17904Thank you.
17905
17906Chairman Goodlatte.
17907
17908I want to thank all of the Department of
17909
17910Justice and Federal Bureau of Investigation staff who accompany you
17911here today as well.
17912Mr. McCabe.
17913
17914Thank you.
17915
17916As do I.
17917
17918Chairman Goodlatte.
17919
17920Thank you very much.
17921With that, the transcribed interview is
17922
17923concluded.
17924[Whereupon, at 7:29 p.m., the interview was concluded.]
17925
17926COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
17927
17928COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
17929
17930259
17931
17932Certificate of Deponent/Interviewee
17933
17934I have read the foregoing ____ pages, which contain the correct
17935transcript of the answers made by me to the questions therein recorded.
17936
17937_____________________________
17938Witness Name
17939
17940_____________________________
17941Date
17942
17943COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
17944
17945