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23how to choose the best vitamin K2
24HEART HEALTH
25How to choose the right Vitamin K2 supplement
26written by
27Vin Kutty
28
29comments
30341 comments
31
32Want the secret to getting the most out of Omega-3s?
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35
36(…and why I stopped taking the most popular K2 supplement and formulated our own)
37We posted a couple of blogs about Vitamin K2 a few years ago.
38
39A lot’s happened with Vitamin K2 since then. This is an update.
40
41In that blog, we struggled to find a good product to recommend. That got me thinking about what an ideal Vitamin K2 product should look like.
42
43I spent a year gathering and reading all the research. And another year finding the right ingredients to make a product based on that research.
44
45Summary:
46
47You need BOTH MK-4 and MK-7 forms of Vitamin K2. MK-4 may be more important.*
48The shape of the K2 molecule makes a difference (CIS form or TRANS form)*
49It’s not critical to have Vitamin K1 in K2 formulas*
50*These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease.
51
52Vitamin K2 supplement
53You need both MK-4 and MK-7 (particularly MK-4)
54These are very different molecules with different structures and different functions.
55
56MK-4 is the only K2 in the brain, where it seems to concentrate. MK-7 seems to be absent in the brain. MK-4 activates proteins involved in maintaining structure of brain cell membranes. These proteins are called Vitamin K Dependent Proteins (VKDP). Scientists have identified 15 VKDP proteins so far. MK-4 also supports healthy inflammation response and oxidative stress in the brain.
57The form of Vitamin K that exists at the highest concentrations in tissues of animals and humans is menaquinone-4 (MK-4.) MK-4 accounts for about 40% and the remainder comprise mainly MK-9, MK-8, and MK-7, in that order. So you could say MK-7 is the fourth most important Vitamin K2.
58Pregnant women need MK-4 because MK-7 does not cross the placenta. MK-4 does. Pregnant women given supplements of MK-7 did not pass on MK-7 to the fetus. This means that pregnant women and developing fetus must have MK-4. MK-7 is also noticeably absent in the cord blood and fetus. We don’t know why this is the case.
59MK-4 and MK-7 are transported in the body by different lipoproteins. MK-4 is transported by HDL and LDL whereas MK-7 is transported around the body by VLDL.
60Human breast milk contains MK-4. It does not contain MK-7.
61Some cellular functions must have MK-4. And MK-7 does things MK-4 cannot.
62Consuming large quantities of MK-7 was extremely rare until the Japanese started fermenting soybeans (Natto) around 1000 AD. Until then, virtually all K2 came in the form of MK-4 with a smattering of other MK forms. Until recently, most healthy traditional cultures got their K2 in the MK-4 form.
63High dose MK-4 is used in Japan as a prescription drug for osteoporosis. Most of the studies showing lowered fracture risk used MK-4, not MK-7.
64Based on all of the above, you could make a compelling argument that MK-4 is much more important than MK-7.
65
66Our understanding of these various forms of K2 is still in its infancy. The longer K2 molecules like MK-8 thru MK-14 may also be essential in trace levels. Some of them have been associated with heart health, but once again, we simply don’t know enough to say what each of these molecules do.
67
68It may take another generation of research for us to accept that K2 is really K Complex. Like B Complex.
69
70Watch out for self-serving anti-MK-4 marketing messages
71Marketers and manufacturers of MK-7 say it’s better than MK-4.
72
73(Of course, they do!)
74
75Plasma half-life. They keep repeating the fact that MK-7 has a much longer plasma half-life than MK-4. This is true – but it’s a self-serving argument. MK-4 is rapidly soaked up by many organs and tissues, so it will be quickly removed from the blood.
76
77Think about it this way: throw a fistful of $100 bills into the air at a packed football game. You won’t see any bills on the stadium floor after a few seconds. Does that mean no one has money?
78
79A short plasma half-life his does NOT make MK-4 useless, redundant or any less beneficial to your health. The plasma half life does not make a molecule more or less effective in the body. MK-4 is stored in the brain, pancreas, salivary glands, and arteries. This stored MK-4 cannot be measured and has specific biological activities in these tissues (beside Gla-protein formation.) This stored tissue pool of MK-4 may be present much longer.
80
81There are no studies that compare the effects of MK-4 to MK-7. Once you begin thinking of MK-4 and MK-7 as having different roles in the body, rather than a weaker/stronger form of the same thing, the anti-MK-4 sales pitches start to sound hollow.
82
83Synthetic vs Natural K2
84If you cruse the interweb seeking knowledge on K2, you will read that MK-4 is synthetic and that MK-7 is natural. Neither MK-4 nor MK-7, in my opinion, is natural.
85
86They are both ‘made from natural sources‘ like leaves, petals, and legumes. But both nutrients undergo extensive fermentation, purification, extraction, and precipitation that it’s really not accurate to call either of these ingredients ‘Natural.’ If you must have ‘natural,’ eat Natto or fatty goose liver.
87
88In my opinion, even K2 made from Natto or Garbanzo (chick peas) are nature-identical, not natural.
89
90Importance of MK-4 during pregnancy and in prenatal vitamins
91Given what I stated about the need for MK-4 during pregnancy, you’d think that all prenatal vitamins would have MK-4.
92
93They don’t.
94
95Some prenatals have MK-7, which only benefits the mother. Ideally, they all should have MK-4. In a perfect world, you should all be getting K2 from real food.
96
97(Oh, please, please read this book: Vitamin K2 and the Calcium Paradox by Dr. Kate Rhéaume-Bleue. If not for you, certainly for your kids.)
98
99I don’t know a single prenatal vitamin that contains MK-4. I don’t know a single OB/GYN who suggests K2-rich foods (let alone MK-4) to their patients. I find this disturbing since weeks 5-12 of pregnancy are critical for the baby’s teeth development. Both sets of teeth, your ‘baby teeth’ and adult teeth are formed in utero during weeks 5 – 12. Proper bone, jaw, skull, dental development is impossible without adequate MK-4.
100
101Pregnant women may be able to partially convert relatively abundant K1 to MK-4. This may be an evolutionary advantage in women of reproductive age, much like their ability to convert ALA Omega-3 to EPA Omega-3 better than the rest of us. But gut dysbiosis and statin use stop this from happening. And virtually everyone these days has gut dysbiosis.
102
103As far as we know, there is little or no role for MK-7 in fetal development. The human body is ultra-efficient. There is very little duplication of function. It is naive to think that all we need is MK-7. The evidence that MK-4 and MK-7 do different things, and that BOTH are essential is very compelling.
104
105Not all MKs found as supplements
106We may still not be off the hook by taking an MK4 + MK-7 supplement. The other MK forms are not available in supplement form and can only come from fermented foods and fats of animals that have recently grazed on rapidly growing green grass.
107
108Why ‘recently‘, ‘rapidly growing‘, and ‘green grass‘? Because they contain the most chlorophyll. Chlorophyll in green grass is processed by probiotic bacteria in the ruminating guts of grazing animals into MK forms.
109
110So cows eating dead hay may not produce K2 rich dairy products. We won’t bother talking about cows fed corn and soy.
111
112The shape of the MK-7 molecule makes a difference
113This is a somewhat new realization. No one is talking about it because it is inconvenient.
114
115You may have heard that there is a difference in absorption or biological effect between CoQ10 (Ubiquinone vs Ubiquinol) or Omega-3 (ethyl ester vs triglyceride vs phospholipid) forms. There is truth behind these notions.
116
117The situation with Vitamin K2 is somewhat similar.
118
119There are two forms (isomers) of MK-7. Cis MK-7 and Trans MK-7.
120
121MK-7 is always found in the trans form in nature and in foods. Cis form of MK-7 is not found in nature and may not provide the same benefit.
122
123If you look at the structure, it becomes clear why.
124
125Vitamin K2 Cis and Trans forms
126Vitamin K2 MK-7 in nature and in food is always in the trans form. The cis form of MK-7 is L-shaped as opposed to the straight shape of trans MK-7. The unique shape of these molecules dictates what they do in the body. Like a lock and key, Vitamin K2 and their receptors work when the body is provided with trans MK-7.
127If you get your K2 from foods, then great – this does not apply to you. But if you get it from supplements, listen up.
128
129Most MK-7 found in supplements are a blend of Cis and Trans.
130
131Example: if a label says 100 mcg (microgram) of MK-7, you’d expect most of it to be absorbed or bioavailable. Not necessarily. In most cases, it is impossible to tell how much of the 100 mcg is in the biologically active and beneficial trans form. Most of it is probably in the trans form. But K2 supplements analyzed at the University of Oslo suggests that some products contain only about 15% of MK-7 in the trans form.
132
133So this hypothetical product may be providing you just 15 mcg of trans MK-7 and 85 mcg cis MK-7, instead of the 100 mcg of usable K2 as claimed by the label.
134
135This is a bit of a bummer. Because most of the manufacturers of K2 products don’t even bother to check how much cis and trans is present in their product. It has simply not dawned on the industry’s collective conscience. (But it may…if you ask them to test and share the results.)
136
137MK-7 molecular structure of various sources per unpublished data from University of Oslo/KappaBio:
138
139MK-7 ORIGIN	% MK-7 as TRANS
140Norway	98%
141Japan	95%
142Europe	89%
143India	71%
144China	15-30%
145Are Natto-based K2 products all-trans?
146Products that claim to be all trans because they are made from Natto, are, well, hoping it is all trans.
147
148Natto-based K2 supplements on the market have very little to do with the dish Natto. They use a similar (or the same) bacteria for fermentation, but every thing else is different. Instead of soybeans, they start with soy protein concentrates. The soy protein fermentation process includes complicated manufacturing steps and the use of solvents. During this process, small deviations can influence the molecule structure and…voila! Cis MK-7.
149
150There is one lab here in California and another in Norway that can test for the presence of cis MK-7. When I asked them about it, they said there isn’t any demand for this test. (For chemistry geeks: use HPLC/UV reverse-phase C30 column at 270 nm to sort out stereoisomers.)
151
152Why I stopped taking the most popular K2 supplement and formulated our own
153For several years, I took and recommended Life Extension’s Super K formula. It has both MK-4 + MK-7 and the price is right. Not surprisingly, it was and still is the most popular K2 supplement in America.
154
155But then I sent Life Extension Super K formula to the lab in Norway can measure both cis and trans isomers of MK-7.
156
157I was not pleased with the result.
158
159Only about a quarter of the MK-7 was in the preferred trans form. The label says 200 mcg of MK-7. Only 54.8 mcg of that is trans MK-7. That meant I’d have to take four pills to get 200 mcg of MK-7 and that would give me way too much K1.
160
161What if the lab in Norway was wrong?
162
163Just to be sure, I sent another Life Extension K2 bottle to Eurofins Lab here in California. The result was almost identical – this time, they found 53.5 mcg of trans MK-7 per pill, about a quarter of what is declared on the label.
164
165So I stopped taking the Life Extension K2 and switched to Nutrigold K2. I trust Nutrigold but I tested their product too for cis/trans ratio and they, as promised, were selling all-trans MK-7. But their product is missing critical MK-4.
166
167It became clear that I’d have to formulate a K2 product from scratch. One that had an meaningful level of both MK-4 and trans MK-7. But with no added K1.
168
169Life Extension Super K2 MK-7 Isomer Analysis
170Lab	Eurofins	Synthetica
171Total MK-7 (mcg)	271.9	211
172Cis-MK-7	218.5	156
173Trans-MK-7	53.5	54.8
174% of MK-7 as Trans	19.6%	26%
175Vitamin K2 MK-7 cis and trans analysis
176Independent test of Life Extension Super K2 shows that MK-7 is mostly in the cis form. Cis MK-7 is not the preferred form, as it is not found in foods or nature.
177Vitamin K2 cis/trans analysis
178Just to rule out coincidence, we sent another bottle of Life Extension Super K2 to a different lab. They also found mostly cis MK-7 with very little trans MK-7
179Addendum (January 2018): It’s been three years since this article was written. Life Extension has recently reformulated their Super K product to contain all-trans MK-7. My issue with the Life Extension product is no longer valid. The original content of this post remains for educational purposes.
180
181It’s not critical to have Vitamin K1 in K2 formulas
182Vitamin K1 has been repeatedly shown to offer no benefit to your heart.
183
184Vitamin K2, on the other hand, has been repeatedly shown to improve heart health.*
185
186Vitamin K1 is essential for proper blood coagulation. K1 has little or no role in proper calcium deposition.
187
188Most adults are not K1 deficient. Even consuming very small amounts of green leafy vegetables or vegetable oils can provide you with ample K1. It’s even found in fast food and soybean oil.
189
190Better yet, your body can recycle K1. You rarely, if ever, become deficient. So no need to supplement. If you supplement with K1, serum levels reach a plateau at 200 mcg. Doses of 1000 mcg per day may even contribute to periodontal disease.
191
192Vitamin K1 and K2 negate the effect of drugs like Coumadin or Warfarin. Actually the truth is the reverse. These anticoagulant drugs stop K1 recycling and so keep the blood very thin. Taking these drugs keep you in an artificially K1 and K2 deficient state. So if you’re taking these drugs, supplementing with K1 or K2 makes the drug ineffective.*
193
194Anticoagulant drugs also take out some K2. There is evidence that people on anticoagulant drugs quickly develop arterial calcium deposits.
195
196As if that wasn’t enough, cholesterol-lowering statin drugs also keep you in an artificially K2 deficient state. *
197
198Regardless, if your doctor deems it important for you to be on these drugs, adding K1 (or K2) to the mix warrants a discussion with your doctor.
199
200I regularly talk about the need to avoid vegetable seed oils and processed foods. Here is another reason: soybean and canola oils contain K1. When these oils are hydrogenated for use in processed foods, K1 gets converted to DHP (dihydrophylloquinone), a substance of questionable impact. Yet another reason to go back to traditional fats like grass-fed butter.
201
202All said, having K1 in your K2 supplement is not critical because it increases risk a little without adding much in the way of benefits.
203
204Ideal K2 dosage
205MK-7 has never been consumed in high doses in human history, unless you lived in eastern Japan and eat Natto. Japanese consume 230 mcg of MK-7 per day due to Natto consumption. No other culture consumes that much MK-7. So, a dose of 100 mcg seems more than adequate. It is, after all, the fourth most abundant/important K2 in the body.
206
207We consumed MK-4 regularly when we were hunter gatherers or even a century ago when we were not disgusted by the concept of eating organ meats like liver. Such a traditional diet would not have given you much more than 500 to 1000 mcg MK-4 per day.
208
209Some Japanese studies have used 45,000 mcg (45 mg) of MK-4 daily dosage without major side effects. 45,000 mcg per day is an extreme dose without basis in human diet. 45,000 mcg is about 50X what you might be able to get from eating K2-rich foods. Anything higher than 1000 mcg per day is well outside your body’s operating parameters. Supplements based on these Japanese pharmaceutical protocols should be taken with caution.
210
21116,000 postmenopausal Dutch women averaged 29 mcg of K2 per day. Americans probably get far less than that.
212
213Current research trends are with higher doses of MK-7. Both 180 and 360 mcg doses of MK-7 appear promising and well-tolerated in supporting healthy arterial elasticity.*
214
215US Pharmacopeia considers Vitamin K2 supplementation to be safe.
216
217Products worth considering
218Thorne Vitamin K2 Liquid (MK-4). This may be a bit pricey upfront, but it is a liquid MK-4 and each drop contains 1000 mcg of MK-4. One bottle may last you a year. Their dosage is based on Japanese osteoporosis studies and is extreme. I think a drop or two drop a day is about all you’d ever need. This is what I gave my kids when they were too young to swallow pills or eat solid foods.
219
220If you want a standalone MK-7 (not sure why you would), there are plenty of options online – Nutrigold and Doctors Best are trustworthy – I’ve tested them both and they are both in the all-trans form. Between the two, I’d go with Nutrigold because they have higher-than-promised amounts.
221
222Vitamin K2
223InnovixLabs Full Spectrum Vitamin K2 contains both MK-4 and MK-7 forms of Vitamin K2. Available at InnovixLabs.com.
224Use code GETK2 to get 20% off your first purchase.
225Based on the research and testing I’ve done, we formulated InnovixLabs Full Spectrum Vitamin K2 with 500 mcg of MK-4 and 100 mcg of MK-7. Both forms in one pill. The size/shape of the pill was described as ‘adorable’ by my wife.
226
227I prefer to get my nutrients from foods and not supplements, leaning on supplement when I’m traveling, busy, or sick.
228
229If you want to get your K2 from foods, the most palatable options are grass-fed butter, European hard cheeses, and poultry. Natto is for the brave – it has been described as a sticky, stretchy blend between gummy bears and snot. Fatty goose liver (Foie gras) is banned where I live!
230
231It doesn’t help that Americans, fearing cholesterol, have cut down on red meat, eggs, and butter by about 20% in the last few decades. Specifically, we eat 40% less K2-rich animal fats and a 177% more vegetable oils that are K2-free. This misguided diet shift may have actually worsened the state of all our arteries and our bones.
232
233Note that the food options below are mostly MK-4, as that’s what’s in most foods:
234
235Food	mcg K2 per 100 g	Form of K2
236Natto	1103	MK-7
237Goose liver	369	MK-4
238European hard cheeses	76	MK-4 and MK-9
239Pastured egg yolk	32	MK-4
240Regular egg yolk	15	MK-4
241Grass-fed butter	15	MK-4
242Chicken liver	14	MK-4
243Skim milk	0	n/a
244 Bottom-line:
245Look for products that contain both MK-4 and MK-7.
246Find out if the K2 is in the trans form.
247All other factors are secondary to the two above.
248
249
250*These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease.
251
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256Home / Fish Oil Articles / Heart Health / How to choose the right Vitamin K2 supplement
257Last updated on August 29, 2019
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262Vin Kutty
263Vin Kutty, MS, is co-founder of Innovix Pharma. He is a nutritionist and Omega-3 expert with 20 years of experience.
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280341 Comments
281Join the conversation
282
283Kristi
284April 25, 2015 at 4:06 am
285Thank you Vin, another great article! I’m assuming you recommend K2 for children as well. Is there a certain dosage based on age that you recommend?
286
287Reply
288Vin Kutty, MS
289April 25, 2015 at 11:10 pm
290Hi Kristi – I gave my kids a drop of the Thorne Liquid K2 a few times a week. Still do, actually.
291
292Addendum: that question was asked in 2015. It is early 2018 now and they each pop a capsule of the InnovixLabs softgel daily.
293
294Reply
295Kristi
296April 26, 2015 at 2:53 am
297OK, thank you. So the MK-4 will aid in their calcium absorption and no need to worry about MK-7?
298
299Reply
300Vin Kutty, MS
301April 26, 2015 at 5:29 pm
302Hi Kristi – yes, MK-4 will certainly aid in their calcium absorption. We’ve traditionally got most of our K2 as MK-4 and only a little as MK-7. I am content with my kids getting a little MK-7 and MK-9 from cheese.
303
304Reply
305Mike
306April 26, 2015 at 6:09 pm
307Hi Vin – article as usual.
308What is the difference between MK 4 as menatetrenone aor as menaquinone?
309Also I have come across some articles that claim that a (unknown?) percentage of K1 can be converted to some K2 in the intestines but I have found no actual %’s or how that may even work at all?
310
311Reply
312Vin Kutty, MS
313April 26, 2015 at 10:27 pm
314Hi Mike – menaquinone is the family of long chain Vitamin K2. It includes all K2. Menatetrenone is MK-4.
315
316Yes, very small quantities of K1 can technically be converted to K2. We (humans) don’t do it well because we partially depend on gut microflora to make the conversion. There is also a gene that encodes an enzymes to make the conversion. Still, we are not anywhere near as efficient at this conversion as other mammals (especially grass eating ones) with fermenting guts.
317
318Reply
319John Pop
320May 2, 2015 at 1:22 pm
321Vin,
322
323Hi, i am introducing my mother to your k2 brand. I saw the warning about blood thinning medications for mk1. She regularly uses excedrin (with aspirin). Any cautions?
324
325thanks,
326John
327
328Reply
329Vin Kutty, MS
330May 2, 2015 at 7:26 pm
331Hi John – if the aspirin or any other heart meds are doctor recommended, then she should consult with her doctor. Having said that, aspirin has a different mechanism of action than anticoagulant medications. Aspirin/Excedrin do not provide blood thinning effect by interfering with or wiping out Vitamin K1/K2 from the body. It does not interfere with K1/K2 or vice versa.
332
333However, if her doctor has her on Rx blood thinning medications, like warfarin or coumadin, then taking K1 or K2 will reduce the effect of those drugs. As I mentioned above, Vitamin K helps the blood clot, so we don’t bleed to death from things like paper cuts. Drugs like warfarin and coumadin keep the blood thin by stopping the effect of K1 and K2…so you’re constantly K1/K2 deficient. If in doubt, check with doctor.
334
335Reply
336David
337May 21, 2015 at 12:02 am
338Thanks for the great post. Have you come across any info about which cheeses have the most K2? I always hear about Gouda, but was wondering if there are other varieties that are just as good (or better)?
339
340Reply
341Vin Kutty, MS
342May 21, 2015 at 4:49 pm
343Hi David – Gouda, Norwegian Jarlsberg, Swiss Emmental, Edam, Blue Cheese, English Cheddar are all good source of MK-9. Jarlsberg is typically the highest.
344
345Reply
346Doc
347June 2, 2015 at 7:52 pm
348If you say MK4 is the more important one and the one concentrated in the brain, why do you recommend natto instead of cheese which has MK4, as listed in your table below?
349
350Reply
351Vin Kutty, MS
352June 2, 2015 at 9:27 pm
353Hi Doc – let me clarify – when I said ‘If you want natural, eat Natto or fatty goose liver,’ I was giving people the two top sources of natural K2. Natto is all MK-7 and Goose liver is all MK-4. No harm at all in eating Natto if you can stomach it – better MK-7 than nothing at all.
354
355The science certainly shows a greater need for MK-4 over MK-7. I think you need MK-4 more than MK-7. I take both and eat cheese for the longer MKs like MK-8 and 9 that are not available as supplements.
356
357So if you can find and enjoy foie gras, then, by all means go for the goose. If not, regular poultry is an so-so choice but it does not have anywhere near as much MK-4 as goose liver. The little bit of MK-4 in chicken is due to the synthetic menadione (K3) that is mixed in with their feed. Chickens then convert some of the K3 to MK-4 K2. If the factory farmed chicken were not fed synthetic menadione, then there isn’t going to be any MK-4 in the chicken. I do not like the idea of relying on factory farmed chicken for anything, that is why I did not mention it in the article. Butter from grass-fed cows and egg yolks from pastured chicken are also so-so sources of MK-4 an make far better choices than factory farmed chicken. But then there is the decades-old misinformation and fat-phobia with butter and eggs. Cheese is not a very good source of MK-4. Hard cheeses are better for MK-8/9. Everything is so-so when compared to goose liver. I’d rather you go with so-so than nothing at all.
358
359Bottom-line: if you can stomach Natto, go for it – plenty of MK-7 there. Otherwise, go with grass-fed butter and pastured egg yolks for MK-4. And hard cheeses for MK-8 and 9.
360
361Reply
362John
363June 26, 2015 at 2:57 pm
364Hi Vin,
365
366We routinely eat pastured eggs, about one-two a day on average (from local people that just have chickens in their “backyard”), as well as Kerry Gold butter. We also take a tsp of FCLO/HVBO (I know you aren’t a fan ? ) , but with the combination of those things do you think we need more MK-4? I am never opposed to supplementing when I think I am not getting enough of something easily, but not sure if we may need more in this case? Thoughts?
367
368Oh and by the way, we are going to try for another kid soon, so please include thoughts on how much beyond the diet outlined above my wife may soon need to take. (And wish us luck! We are 38 and deciding to have another “set” of kids, Lord willing. We have 10 and 8 y/o boys now.)
369
370Reply
371Vin Kutty, MS
372June 27, 2015 at 3:42 am
373Hi John – given your diet, you’re probably not deficient in MK-4. If you like cheese, look into European hard cheeses.
374
375Ummm, yeah, fermented cod liver oil (FCLO.) I am NOT a fan. It’s the worst possible way to get your fat soluble vitamins.
376
377If you’re thinking about adding to your family, then definitely have your wife consider MK-4 during the first trimester of pregnancy. Folate is important before conception and during the first trimester.
378
379Reply
380John
381June 27, 2015 at 2:20 pm
382I can’t remember where your info on why you dislike the use of FCLO is. Can you point me to it? (I think its the only thing I have disagreed with you on, but I can be swayed.) The evidence seems very good *for* FCLO from Green Pasture, as it seems that they go to great lengths to ensure purity, testing, etc. But I may be wrong. Can you revisit some of that research sometime? I love the evidence based research and blogs of yours. Similar to Mark’s Daily Apple. Although I think Mark likes FCLO.
383
384So to replace what FCLO/HVBO gives me, you would choose a quality mk4/mk7 formula, quality Omega 3, something like Nutrigold D3, and then what for Retinol Vitamin A?
385
386Reply
387Vin Kutty, MS
388June 28, 2015 at 3:29 am
389Hi John – here is the link: http://www.omegavia.com/cod-liver-oil/
390
391Fermented cod liver oil is rancid. Period. If it is made from cod, it is also polluted. Lately, some of it is not from cod and none of it is fermented.
392
393The reason why FCLO is recommended is that it has natural pre-formed Vitamins A and D3. It is the only reason why it is better than regular fish oil. Most people do not get enough of either of these vitamins, so those doing the recommending are well-intentioned. But I don’t think they have any clue how rancid this stuff is or the pollutant load.
394
395Unlike FCLO, most of the regular cod liver oils that you might see at Walmart or Walgreens is processed and purified like any other fish oil. These are not going to be rancid or polluted. They also don’t have Vits A and D. If you find Cod liver oil made by well-known brands, the Vit A has been added separately after purification to make it appear like the real thing.
396
397The ancestral and paleo health community has been very pro-FCLO without having a clue about what’s actually in it. Not smart. But some people are starting to catch on. Like me, they’re starting to get their Vit A from liver, eggs, butter and other animal fats. And D from the sun and supplements depending on the season. If you don’t like liver, you may want to try NOW Foods’ Vit A supplement. It’s made from fish liver and is not rancid.
398
399I haven’t beaten this drum very loudly because anything I say about it is suspect. After all, I’m associated with OmegaVia. I get that.
400
401Reply
402Aurjan
403November 22, 2015 at 9:05 am
404FCLO was tested by Green Pasture itself. The results were posted on the website-but when I last checked they were removed due to (I think)
405Dr. Kaayla Daniel “Hook, Line and Stinker” expose about FCLO- and showed no or low D3 and mostly D2. Then they made the case that the D2 was fine and equivalent to D3. Now they admit there is no D2 and little D3 but there is a substance that has vitamin D properties.
406
407Reply
408Vin Kutty, MS
409November 23, 2015 at 7:46 am
410Yep – forget D2, D3, K2. The stuff has very little Omega-3.
411
412Reply
413John
414June 28, 2015 at 7:25 pm
415Thanks for the link. I read back through that again to refamiliarize myself with what had been said. I compliment you again as I think you research these topics incredibly well and I *do* believe you try to encourage what is best for us, not just what you sell. I now remember coming away from what I read from you a bit convinced, but then reading much of what is on the Green Pastures site about the tests they run on their batches made me think that the downsides of FCLO were minimal, and that it did not contain many pollutants, at least according to their tests. Do you mind giving a scan of a bunch of articles on their site and then commenting? Since they are the big dog in FCLO, I imagine you are already familiar with their practices, so I am guessing some of what you discussed in your FCLO article was a result of what you know about them. I would like to know your specific opinion based on what they are doing and saying these days. If that is something you dont want to print publicly feel free to just take this to email. Thanks again for all you do! (By the way, I think you know, but I have also been buying Omegavia on autoship for a couple of years now, so I definitely see a great purpose and value in your products. I am about to be trying the Innovix Magnesium and have gone through a couple of bottles of Omega 7 as well.)
416
417Last thing… I looked into that Now Foods Vitamin A. 25,000 IU seems a little excessive. Is it OK? Or perhaps only in the presence of a 5,000 IU D3 from Nutrigold? If one instead gets vitamin A from liver, does that mean a bit of liver everyday?
418
419Reply
420Vin Kutty, MS
421June 29, 2015 at 4:49 am
422Hi John – Now Foods makes a 10,000 IU Vit A product too. If you eat a somewhat paleo type diet, you won’t need the 10K pill every day, let alone 25K. May be do the 10K a couple of times a week. To put things in perspective, traditional Inuit diet provides 20-40K per day. There is also a an alleged A to D ratio. I’ve read 3:1 all the way to 10:1 suggested, but if you’re taking 5K of D3, you’ll want to make sure you get some A and K2. You don’t need to eat liver every day – that’d be a chore. A couple of times a week ought to do it. A and D are stored for long-term use. My suggestion is to get a LOT of summer time sun exposure and rely of D3 supplements during winter and spring. If you do it right, you wont need D3 supplements during the fall, right thru December. Besides, sunshine has other benefits besides D3 – things like mood and re-setting circadian rhythms. Very critical.
423
424Reply
425Mike
426June 29, 2015 at 3:26 pm
427Hello John – Solgar make a dry Vitamin A that is 5000iu which is about 100% daily needs. Don’t know much about the company or how good their products are?
428
429http://www.amazon.com/Solgar-Vitamin-5000-Tablets-Count/dp/B000VZ1D6Y#customerReviews
430
431Regards,
432Mike
433
434Reply
435John
436June 29, 2015 at 3:59 pm
437Ok thanks. I am definitely trying to find an amount of each of these important nutrients that I can control and feel that I, my wife, and kids are all getting enough of, without getting too much.
438
439My wife and I eat a pastured egg or two everyday. My kids do so maybe 70% of the days. I try to get them to everyday, but sometimes unsuccessfully. My wife and I are currently following the “Whole 30” eating plan, so we get plenty of veggies, meats, fish, and fruit.
440
441I like the idea of that 10,000 IU Vit A, but it is also in soybean oil…. not sure why they went with that when some of their other supplements have better oils. They seem to be the only company that has a Retinol based Vit A (I assume A from fish oil is Retinol (?)
442
443So to replace what is in FCLO / HVBO blend:
444
4451. Vit A from eggs, liver (infrequently… would have to trick kids into eating by putting in a burger or something), and a possible 10,000 IU supplement for both myself and kids
4462. K2 from the Innovix blend. Looks near perfect
4473. Vitamin D3 from 2,000 IU supplement and sun. (5000 is likely overkill…is 2,000 too much for kids?)
4484. 1-2 capsules Omega 3 from Omegavia, also periodically from salmon
4495. And then Calcium… should I be supplementing at all? I only ask since it has been referred to in so many K2 and D3 articles. I have never supplemented with calcium, assuming I got enough in my raw milk. (Right now we don’t drink milk since it is not a part of the first 30 days of Whole 30, but I will be adding it back). I think my wife, especially if she get pregnant, should be downing raw milk consistently. The kids continue to drink some everyday.
450
451Despite the “look” of complexity above, the upside is all of these items can have verified purity, and the sum of them all would be MUCH cheaper than the ~$100 a month I pay now to have a tsp a day of FLCO/HVBO blend for me and my kids (wife has not been taking).
452
453Sorry for another long email. I think its a great discussion to flush out, though! Thanks for the answers!
454
455Reply
456Vin Kutty, MS
457June 30, 2015 at 9:02 am
458Hi John – the teeny, tiny bit of soybean oil in the Now Foods Vit A is not an issue for me. People get emotionally worked up about soy, but the only thing I don’t like about soybean oil is the high Omega-6. You’d have to down the whole bottle of pills to noticeably increase the Omega-6: 3 ratio. If I’m traveling or in another country (like right now) and my scrambled eggs were cooked in soybean oil…oh well. I’ll live.
459
460I don’t know how heavy your kids are, but 1000-2000 IU of D3 should be OK during winter months. Skip D3 pills in the summer. I just toss my kids in the pool during the middle of the day without sunscreen. In the winter, I use liquid D3, A, and K2 drops with my kids, may be a couple of times a week. But it all depends on their diet.
461
462I don’t supplement with Calcium. I prefer to get it form food – meat and fish cooked bone-in and the rest of my calcium comes from green leafy veggies. I’m Ok with heavy cream and cheese, but I have not consumed milk in a couple of decades. It’s an overrated source of calcium with lots of potential issues. Raw milk is another one of those ‘Paleo echo chamber’ things. They’re all doing it. I refuse to.
463
464Reply
465Susan
466November 10, 2017 at 9:24 pm
467Can you expand on the “other potential issues” of raw milk please? I buy raw milk and drink some everyday. I make canary milk with it for diabetes control. I would like to know of any potential issues you are referring to. I like to be well informed if possible on this.
468
469Reply
470Vin Kutty
471November 11, 2017 at 1:35 am
472Hi Susan – the main issue I see is if the raw milk is not handled correctly and becomes contaminated. Pasteurization is designed to kill pathogens. Without that process, there is always a possibility of contamination. From a larger (purely opinion here) perspective, no other species on the planet consumes the milk of another species, especially as adults. It is possible that this is why so many people have dairy intolerance (no, I’m not talking lactose).
473
474Reply
475Master Chef
476June 11, 2018 at 1:24 pm
477Hehe, actually some people don’t tolerate milk because it’s A1 Cows, in fact most people who take A1 dairy have some problems. Apparently A2 cow milk is almost identical to Mothers milk. Most commercial milk, including organic, grass fed are still A1, it’s just cheaper to farm.
478
479Reply
480Julia willis
481January 6, 2018 at 9:17 pm
482Will your K2 help brain degenerative diseases? I have MS, primary lessons in brain. Right brain shrinkage, right to left not communicating, besides the normal pain, spasms, memory loss, unbalance, and now early dementia. Can’t take anymore DMTs for MS, age 71. I’m trying diligently to eat MS diet for women (similar to Wole Foods), sleep (impossible), meditating, and as much PT as possible (gentle stretching). I read somewhere K2 would help. I also took test and was told MTHFR mutation (taking 15 mg Meryl folate prescribed by doc) along with allele musfunctions. Any advice appreciated. I take a lot of recommended supplements
483
484Reply
485Vin Kutty
486January 6, 2018 at 9:40 pm
487Hi Julia – your situation sounds like it is a lot for anyone to handle. Any one of those symptoms would be difficult, let alone the combination!
488
489While there is some proof that K2 is important for proper brain health, especially the MK-4 form, we don’t know with certainty whether it will help with degenerative disease. My best bet would be to work with an Integrative Medicine MD in your area. There are dozens of nutrition and lifestyle related levers to pull in situations like this, but I think it’d be best to work with an MD who’s well versed (and authorized!) to dispense such advice.
490
491Detoxing from having MTHFR mutation takes a while, but I’m glad you got that diagnosed and are taking the proper remedies. Make sure you are getting the other B vitamins, D, and glutathione. In the meantime, eat a whole foods/high veggie paleo/high fiber/no sugar/no processed grain type diet.
492
493Reply
494John
495June 30, 2015 at 1:38 pm
496Ok thanks again.
497
498Last question (for now! ? )
499
500My wife and I were discussing how much vitamin A for her to shoot for in her diet or supplementation before and during the hopeful upcoming pregnancy. I was prepared to have her incorporate liver, or maybe dessicated liver, or the 10,000 IU pill we discussed, on top of her routinely eating an egg or two a day. But she has been doing reading such as here:
501
502http://www.babycenter.com/0_vitamin-a-in-your-pregnancy-diet_675.bc
503
504And quite a few other sites that say for pregnant women to steer clear of extra vitamin A. Of course that link also says things like
505
506“The average American diet provides plenty of vitamin A. It’s available in meat, dairy, fish, eggs, and fortified cereals in the form of preformed vitamin A, or retinol. It’s also in most fruits and vegetables, mostly in the form of carotenoids.
507
508It’s important during pregnancy not to get too much of the preformed vitamin A, which in high doses can cause birth defects and liver toxicity. (You can take in as many carotenoids as you want, however, from fruits and vegetables.)”
509
510So since that writer thinks that the fortify cereal with Retinol versions of Vitamin A, I find the whole thing suspect. But there are plenty of similar articles out there.
511
512Do you have any data or studies for me to show her that are more accurate?
513
514Reply
515Vin Kutty, MS
516July 1, 2015 at 8:34 am
517Hi John – there is a lot of Vit A misinformation and phobia out there. The risk with both A and D3 is the consumption one without the other. Or in the absence of K2. Google ‘Chris Masterjohn Vitamin A’ He’s written a lot about this in a consumer-friendly way.
518
519If you (or your wife) eat what you’re supposed to eat, then there is no need to rely on Vit A supplements. If she decides to take Vit A, check with her OB first.
520
521Reply
522Annie
523July 15, 2015 at 1:50 am
524Hello Vin,
525I have always read, that your body etc. needs K2 Mk-4 about every for 5 hours as this has a short shelve life in the body. It takes the calcium from your arteries/soft tissue, to your bones.
526But K2 MK-7 has a long shelve life, and does not need to be taken as often. About every 3 days!
527Many people that take Mk-7 get a fast heart beat, no matter the small amount they take, and some get a fast heart beat, and some cannot take it before bed time cause it keeps them awake. And some people do not have any problem.
528
529That said, I have Osteoporosis. I’m older. I won’t take the osteo drugs.
530I do take allot of vitamins and herbs..
531That is when I saw your Full Spectrum VITAMIN K2 (by InnovixLabs). Provides two essential forms of K2 (MK-4 + MK-7). Total of 600 mcg of K2 per capsule. Soy-free. 90 Capsules.
532from InnovixLabs
533
534I was taking Thorne liquid K2 Mk-4..I was taking 5 drops (its says take 15!!)..once to twice aday with a little healthy fat.
535I do not want to take Thorne anymore!! But yours seems to not have enough K2 Mk-4, and not sure if I should yours twice aday, , cause then I think it would be too much Mk-7.
536I do Not want a fast heart beat.
537What are your thoughts on this?
538
539Can you tell me what type of vitamin A. you recommend, and Please, Not anytype of “Now foods”.
540
541You have been helpful.
542Thank you,
543Annie
544
545Reply
546Vin Kutty, MS
547July 15, 2015 at 3:24 am
548HI Annie – there is no basis in science for telling someone to take MK-4 every 5 hours. This unscientific recommendation is based on the short half-life. But half-life is very deceiving because it only looks at plasma concentration. MK-4 is rapidly stored in select tissues in the body and cleared from the blood. I address this in the article above. This does not mean you’re not getting the benefits of MK-4 after 5 hours. That’s just silly. So once a day should be plenty. The Thorne item is very good – I give it to my kids who don’t want to take pills.
549
550The best source of Vitamin A is liver. If I don’t eat liver on a particular week, I might pop the NOW Foods Vit A that you prefer not to take. Grass fed butter, heavy cream and eggs have small quantities as well.
551
552Reply
553Annie
554July 15, 2015 at 8:17 am
555Hi Vin,
556
557Thank you for your fast reply.
558
559Tonight I did buy your:
560“Full Spectrum VITAMIN K2 (by InnovixLabs). Provides two essential forms of K2 (MK-4 + MK-7). Total of 600 mcg of K2 per capsule. Soy-free.
561
562I buy organic pasture soy free eggs, organic grass fed butter. But I mainly use organic coconut oil.
563I bought organic pasture liver away ago, and we just didn’t like it..I think I threw it out, or gave it to someone.! Maybe I should buy it again, and give it another try.
564If “Now foods A ” Cannot pass prop 65 in Ca. I’m not taking it. I also do not like the fish in it.
565
566Thanks Again,
567Annie
568
569Reply
570Vin Kutty, MS
571July 15, 2015 at 9:48 pm
572Hi Annie – you hit a nerve. Please read this to the end – I have a surprise for you.
573
574Prop 65 is a brilliantly ridiculous law. I had to study it when I was in college back in the 1980s. It is the law in California. If a product contains any substance known to the state of California to cause cancer or reproductive harm, it must clearly say so. Sounds good, right? But the safety cut off level is often at 5th percentile of established safety standards. Here is what I mean: let’s take Lead as an example. Prop 65 says a product must have the warning if it has more than 0.5 micrograms Lead per serving. This is way, way below any reasonable, scientific standard of safety. Why? Because a serving of healthy organic spinach has 5 micrograms! It’s naturally occurring. That’s 10 times as much as California Prop 65 permits. Same for dozens of other veggies – broccoli, brussels sprouts, avocados, cucumbers and I could go on. Nuts, meats, fruits…all. Don’t even bother with liver.
575
576Are you going to avoid eating all these veggies, fruits, nuts, and meats? I’m not!
577
578The lawyers who wrote and pushed Prop 65 into law have been suing companies for breaking the law and extracting huge settlements. This is called a shakedown settlement.
579
580There have been many instances when we’ve come up with a great formulation – groundbreaking stuff. But we’ve either had to scrap the formula completely or reduce it to something unimpressive to meet Prop 65 requirements.
581
582So here is your surprise: I knew this, but I spoke with a nutritionist at NOW Foods just to confirm. Guess what? Their Vitamin A has the Prop 65 warning BECAUSE it is Vitamin A. Yep, that’s right. Not because there is lead or mercury or arsenic. It’s pure, clean Vitamin A. I have access to a lab and I can vouch for the purity. Vitamin A has the scary cancer/birth defect warning BECAUSE IT IS VITAMIN A! If a product has 10,000 IU or more Vit A, it will have the Prop 65 warning. But most adults (especially those who take D3 supplements) need more than 10,000 IU per day. Ancestral populations used to get 30,000+ IU per day. Prop 65 has fed into Vit A phobia and Vit A deficiency can cause birth defects.
583
584More here: http://articles.latimes.com/1989-04-15/news/mn-1702_1_birth-defects-toxics-list-vitamin
585
586Disclosure: Innovix Pharma does not currently sell Vitamin A. And there are no plans to.
587
588Reply
589Annie
590July 16, 2015 at 5:56 pm
591Hi Vin,
592That is very interesting, to say the least.
593Although I have looked through the internet, but have not been able to find anything else about this type of article ! I’ll pass it on to see what others have to say about it.
594What I have read is, Prop 65 started out about Cleaning up the water etc. in Ca., then it looks like many others jumped on the band wagon..Now there are 100’s of other things that got mixed up with this bill Prop 65!!
595What a surprise..
596
597I have Not seen signs up about prop 65, in stores ,except in Macy’s about there Lead Crystal , and that is only in the last couple of years.
598Over a year ago My granddaughter in the market pointed out to me that “Wine Vinegar” I use in salads has a sign up, saying there is Sulfates in it and could be dangerous..Any thoughts?
599Homegoods which is owned my TJ Maxx, and Marshalls, does not have any signs up about prop 65, and there Homegoods store is filled with dinnerware, cookware, and everything. No signs..
600I never heard of prop 65 till about two years ago..
601
602There is so much controversy now about health. The food we eat, and on those websites there is allot of talk about prop 65, and what type of dinnerware passes the tests, of low iron, and cadmium.
603It is a concern to me, as there is so much pollution in the air, I think if we can help our selfs, every little bit helps.
604Although I think its insane to put vitamin A in the same category as street drugs!
605Who really can believe that!!
606
607As a teenager I can remember taking 25,000, or was it 50,000 iu of A everyday. I wanted my skin to be perfect , and it was..lol.
608
609My question was, what type of vitamin A to take now. Its confusing when there are so many different types of A??
610
611Thank you for your explanation about Prop 65,,
612Annie
613
614Reply
615Vin Kutty, MS
616July 16, 2015 at 7:33 pm
617Hi Annie – I prefer to take one of the fish-liver-derived Vitamin A. I take NOW Foods Vit A 25,000 IU a couple of times a week. If I eat liver, I skip a lot of my supplements for a few days.
618
619Reply
620Annie
621July 16, 2015 at 6:50 pm
622Hi Vin,
623Here is a easy to read Gov Website about Prop 65 :
624http://oehha.ca.gov/prop65/background/p65plain.html
625
626It is not detailed, but I think we needed to make some changes in the chemicals that where being used in large factories that caused our air to be unhealthy, and what is in our food etc. for the health of our selfs.
627As far as our food goes, with the new labeling, we can now make better choices of we choose to.
628From what I know, allot of these laws have been carried over to other states..
629
630Take Care,
631Annie
632
633Reply
634Vin Kutty, MS
635July 16, 2015 at 7:36 pm
636Hi Annie – as with many of these laws, I think the original intent was good. But many of the ‘offending’ substances were added to Prop 65 list despite compelling scientific protests. Makes you wonder why.
637
638Reply
639Annie
640July 16, 2015 at 10:04 pm
641Hi Vin,
642Politicians do what they can make them big money, or bring them the votes..
643
644It looks like NOW Foods is one of the Vitamin A’s that is not synthetic , but it has Soy in it!
645I’m not one to buy anything with Soy, although I might now not a choice when it comes to A.
646Do you know how much Soy is in this?
647
648Thanks,
649Annie
650
651Reply
652Vin Kutty, MS
653July 16, 2015 at 10:51 pm
654Hi Annie – it has small amounts of soybean oil in it as a carrier. You might get a couple of mg of Omega-6 from it. One small McDonalds french fry serving will get you couple thousand mg of Omega-6 from soybean oil. If you eat out at a restaurant, virtually everything is cooked in soybean oil. You’d have to eat 6 months’ supply of Now Foods Vit A in one sitting to equal an order of french fries. Perspective.
655
656Reply
657Annie
658July 17, 2015 at 2:21 am
659Vin,
660Thank you. Guess I’m buying , “NOW Foods A” lol..
661
662I don’t eat at McDonalds , or any fast foods..I’m too old for that stuff !!!…
663Although I go to the food court at Whole foods Venice /Santa Monica, and hopefully the better restaurants there that doesn’t use soy, Canola oil, corn oil, who knows!..
664I have never cooked so much in my life, now I know what is in my food..
665
666Thanks again,
667Annie
668
669Reply
670Christian
671July 21, 2015 at 5:42 pm
672Hi Vin,
673I just got the Innovix Labs Vitamin K2 supplement and I am wondering if my wife who has just got pregnant should take this supplement as well as it has a much higher dosage than the recommended.
674Thanks.
675
676Reply
677Vin Kutty, MS
678July 21, 2015 at 7:20 pm
679Hi Christian – the dosage is certainly not higher than recommended – even kids can tolerate the recommended dosage. Innovix K2 has 500 mcg of MK-4. In Japan, there is a Rx drug that’s 45,000 mcg per pill that’s used for osteoporosis. No known side effects even at 90X higher dosage. 100 mcg of MK-7 is pretty standard.
680
681However, I would suggest discussing the matter with her OB before starting any new supplements. In the meantime, I strongly recommend you read up on the effect of Vitamin K2 deficiency during pregnancy and youth: http://www.amazon.com/Vitamin-K2-Calcium-Paradox-Little-Known-ebook/dp/B00D5TSMAS …although the book is outdated on our understanding of the importance of MK-4 during pregnancy. The pictures of the kids’ facial structure and teeth with and without Vitamins A and K2 is worth the price of the book.
682
683Reply
684Laura
685July 28, 2015 at 3:53 am
686Hi Vin. I have the same concern as Christian. My OB recommended a normal Prenatal, but I know the dosages of the many supplements are not correctly, therefore I decided individual supplements with the correct dosages of Omega 3, Calcium, Magnesium etc…
687I am 5 weeks pregnant and would like to know if you recommend Innovix Labs Vitamin K2 1 capsule a day or would be better take a K2 MK7 supplement 80 mg daily? Did your wife take the Full Spectrum Vitamin K2? Thanks in advance. Laura.
688
689Reply
690Vin Kutty, MS
691July 28, 2015 at 4:44 pm
692Hi Laura – since you are pregnant and under active care of your OB, all decisions must be made after consulting with your OB.
693
694But the science says pregnancy weeks 5 to 12 are when the developing baby needs Vitamin K2 the most for teeth and facial bone development – good teeth and good looking face with wide jaws to accommodate all teeth. This does not mean that the baby does not need K2 later…but this is the time when they need K2 for the development process I mentioned. Both sets of teeth, the baby teeth AND ALSO the adult teeth are developing now. I know it is hard to believe, but the adult teeth are already there. Tiny but there.
695
696As I state in the article above, MK-7 is useless for the developing baby. MK-7 is good for adults concerned about calcified arteries, but developing babies need MK-4.
697
698The full spectrum K2 was not available when my wife was pregnant. But she ate a LOT of cheese and fermented foods and grass fed butter…I mean A LOT! It was her craving. She’d eat a big block of Gruyere cheese in just a few days, so there was no K2 deficiency. If she were pregnant now, I would give her MK-4 and MK-7 forms of K2 – without a doubt.
699
700Reply
701Laura
702July 29, 2015 at 2:33 am
703Thanks a lot Vin. Very helpful answer!!
704Hopefully the Full Spectrum K2 is not a high dosage for pregnancy.
705I am ordering right away through Amazon.
706
707Reply
708Ricky
709July 30, 2015 at 1:18 pm
710Hello Vin
711
712I am interested in purchasing your K2 product. My Calcium Score is 271 and I have lesions in 2 Arteries. Need to start Vit K2.
713
714Where do you source your MK-7 and is it from Natto.
715
716Thank you
717
718Reply
719Vin Kutty, MS
720July 30, 2015 at 5:24 pm
721Hi Ricky – MK-7 is made in USA with geranium flower petals and acacia tree oil. So, no, it is not from Natto.
722
723Reply
724Chris
725August 21, 2015 at 5:10 pm
726Hi Vin,
727Is there any resources on the internet on upper safety limit for MK4 and K1 for pregnancy? Not able to find any meaningful information so far ?
728
729Reply
730Vin Kutty, MS
731August 21, 2015 at 6:09 pm
732Hi Chris – 45,000 mcg or 45 mg per day is the standard dose for the Japanese MK-4 osteoporosis drug. There are no reported adverse reactions. Given that most supplements have 500 to 1000 mcg of MK-4, you are operating at levels way, way below what’s used in Japan for osteoporosis. K2, in all forms, are not stored, so toxicity buildup is unlikely.
733
734K1 is a different matter altogether. I’d use caution with K1. Check with your doctor before you take K1, especially if you’re pregnant. Too much K1 before a C-section or any procedure that may involve some blood loss needs to be thoroughly discussed with your doctor.
735
736Reply
737Chris
738August 22, 2015 at 2:51 am
739Thanks Vin. Appreciate very much your sharing!
740
741Reply
742Annie
743August 22, 2015 at 4:39 am
744Hi Vin,
745I do Not agree with you about the 45 mg aday for K2-MK-4. and there Is Side Effects.
746I had side effect when I took about 6- 7 drops of Throne K2-Mk-4…Each drop is 5 mg.
747I was sick with flu symptoms for at least 3 hours, and my body ache.
748I have a friend that can only take One Drop of Throne MK-4, or she gets sick.
749It might depend on the weight !. I’m a slim petite women.
750It is true that K2- Mk4 does not have a long shelve life in the body. I have read, and was told to take it with meals, and some healthy fat with it so it will absorb.
751Although take it about 5 hr apart.
752
753Eating foods with Mk4, is different then taking a supplement.
754
755Take Care..
756
757Reply
758Vin Kutty, MS
759August 22, 2015 at 7:56 pm
760Hi Annie – eating MK-4 rich foods is certainly better than taking it as supplements – foods contain several other nutrients. And virtually all foods that contain MK-4 are very nutrient dense. Having said that, fatty goose liver is the best source of MK-4. Enough said. You can get some from butter, cream of cows that have been grazing on rapidly-growing green pastures…usually in spring and summer. Humans, like all animals, convert K1 to MK-4, but we are not very good at it. Cows and other grass eating animals are. Geese certainly are. Chickens are good at it, but our chickens hardly ever eat green, chlorophyl-lly stuff. Same for most mammals that we consume. This is usually why most of us are K2 deficient.
761
762As for side effects with 45 mg or 45,000 mcg of MK-4 per day. I completely accept that you have issues with that dosage. It’s quite possible that others may as well. I don’t have an issue with 45 mg. Some of my friends and family who’ve taken 45 mg do not have issues. I give my kids 5 drops a day and they don’t have issues. As I like to say, we’re all snowflakes. We’re different and react to things differently. I wish I could drink coffee after dinner! If I do I’m up all night. But others I know sleep like babies after a strong cup of coffee. Not fair. But back to 45 mg – there are countless Japanese who take this amount on a daily basis. Still, 45 mg per day is an unreasonably high dose. A person eating a perfect ancestral diet would NEVER have consumed that much in a day. 45 mg (45,000 mcg) is 90 times more than what our Innovix product provides in a pill – is artificially high. You’d be fine with 2-5 drops per day. BTW, each drop is 1 mg or 1000 mcg. So you’d need 45 drops to get to 45 mg. The mere inconvenience will keep many people from reaching that dose.
763
764Yes, it is true that MK-4 has a short half-life in blood plasma. That is NOT THE SAME THING as being excreted from the body. This just means that it is removed from the blood. It is quickly stored in the brain, pancreas, salivary glands, and arteries. It could be stored there for a long time. The half-life story (often used by marketers of MK-7 products to dismiss the importance of MK-4) refers to blood. It does not mean MK-4 isn’t working for you in others parts of the body where it is needed. We need to understand the nuance of what it means to have a short blood plasma half-life. Most people interpret it as ‘it only works for a short period.’ That’s wrong.
765
766Yes, taking fat-soluble nutrients like Vit K2, D3, A, and E complex with meals is always a good idea because of the presence of fat.
767
768Reply
769Annie
770August 22, 2015 at 8:55 pm
771Hi Vin,
772Thank you for your reply,
773
774Foie Gras (Goose Liver) is outlawed in California..
775Here is the law..
776The California foie gras law, California S.B. 1520,[1] is a California State statute that prohibits the “force feed[ing of] a bird for the purpose of enlarging the bird’s
777liver beyond normal size” (California Health and Safety Code § 25981) as well as the sale of products that are a result of this process (§ 25982).[2] This outlawed the traditional method of producing foie gras in California. The law was enacted in 2004 and went into effect on July 1, 2012.[3][4] On January 7, 2015, U.S. District Judge Stephen V. Wilson held that the portion of California’s law banning the sale of foie gras within the state (California Health and Safety Code § 25982) was preempted by the federal Poultry Products Inspection Act, and enjoined the California Attorney General from enforcing it.[5][6] That decision is currently on appeal.
778Truthfully I think the law is the right thing to do. If you have ever seen how they force feed Geese etc, only for our benefit its disgusting. There are other ways for us to get what we need. Btw I’am a meat eater, and use to eat the Paleo diet.
779
780That said, from one of your other emails, I stopped taking the Throne K2-MK4, and bought , Innovix Labs Full Spectrum, Healthy bones & arteries K2 Mk4 +
781Mk-7. One a day. I do not feel sick with that type.
782I thought on the throne k2-mk-4, One drop was 5mg !!!
783I also use Only Organic Grass fed butter, and 1000 day Gouda cheese. Eggs from chickens that are Really Free Ranged, Not store bought.. 5000D3, A, Omega 3, Black seed caps, and others for my bones etc.
784Take vits after I eat dinner with a little T.J’s crunchy Almond butter. I’m thinking it has fat in it !!
785Hope I’m doing the right thing for my bones & body.
786
787Thank you for your info,
788Take Care,
789Annie
790
791Reply
792jesse
793August 26, 2015 at 9:14 pm
794Hi Vin,
795
796Thanks so much for the informative blog and being responsive to comments. Learning a lot here already. My question is regard to K2 and cooking. Specifically cooking butter, cheese, and eggs. Does it reduce the K2 or would the cooked result match your table above?
797
798Thanks,
799jesse
800
801Reply
802Vin Kutty, MS
803August 26, 2015 at 11:10 pm
804Hi Jesse – K2 seems to be somewhat sensitive to heat…but it also depends on the type. MK-4 seems more easily degraded by heat, at least that’s what happens when we heat abuse our product to see what happens. For practical purposes, I don’t see it changing anything. I am not going to recommend that we switch to raw or less cooked foods for the sake of preserving a few micrograms of K2. I say just keep cooking. If you lose a few mcg of K2, that’s OK. As long as you eat the foods you mention above, you’re fine. And it’s a good thing that butter and cheese can be eaten raw.
805
806Reply
807jesse
808August 26, 2015 at 10:32 pm
809Quick followup, can you share your source on the K2 prenatally from weeks 5-12? I’d like to read more and googling has just turned up the most useless results, nothing “scholarly”. The interesting thing is that by week 5 most women aren’t even sure they are pregnant yet, so if this is true they’d basically need to shore up their nutrient status as soon as they begin trying to conceive.
810thanks again,
811jesse
812
813Reply
814Vin Kutty, MS
815August 26, 2015 at 11:27 pm
816Hi again, Jesse – I should clarify: human tooth development or odotogenesis happens in the first trimester of pregnancy and a little into the second. This is where I got the weeks 5-12 reference. There are plenty of solid references to read up on that. Tooth and jaw development require adequate K2. For ethical reasons, no one has conducted controlled studies with pregnant women – one group given K2 and the other not. So the thought sequence goes like this: tooth development occurs in weeks 5 thru 12. Menaquinones are required for tooth/jaw development. Therefore Menaquinones must be especially critical in weeks 5-12 of pregnancy. Kate Rheaume-Bleue’s book is a good source of references too. That’s probably where my research started.
817
818As far as not knowing they’re pregnant – yes, this is an issue with Folate, DHA, choline too. Pregnancy has a ‘Look busy – the boss is coming!’ effect on people’s eating and lifestyle. The time to start eating, exercising, and sleeping is many months BEFORE conception. Poor epigenetics is a terrible thing to burden you children and grandchildren with.
819
820Reply
821jesse
822August 27, 2015 at 12:25 am
823Thanks for the earlier responses. Final question here… Do you believe that our needs for vitK have increased since the agricultural revolution? If not, what do you believe paleo sources of K2 were prior to mass dairy consumption?
824
825Reply
826Vin Kutty, MS
827August 27, 2015 at 3:29 am
828Hi Jesse – great question. No, our needs have not changed at all since the agricultural revolution or dairy consumption. Aged hard cheese and grass-fed butter just happen to be the ‘low-hanging fruits’ for K2. Our pre-agriculture diet naturally included organ meats (mostly liver) and other animal products from animals that ate grass. Most grass-eating animals convert K1 in plants to MK-4. Humans don’t seem very good at it. It’s a very good thing that we need very little K2. This is a microbial conversion in some species and in ours too. But it is possible we were better at it prior to widespread antibiotic use…but that’s just a guess. Our ability to convert tiny amounts of K1 to K2 and the occasional butter/cheese indulgence keeps us going in the absence of a true ancestral diet.
829
830Reply
831jesse
832August 27, 2015 at 3:59 am
833In trying to answer my own question I stumbled across a statement from Mark’s Daily Apple:
834
835“Incidentally, the body can “make” K2 from K1, but it’s not a 1:1 conversion. Though many sources put it at 10:1, the presence of fat (oh, lovely, lovable fat) enhances that conversion process. ”
836
837I couldn’t find any reference or verification of that. Perhaps paleo man had good conversion of vegetable K1 by eating sufficient fats. Perhaps they got great levels of K2 during certain seasons and hobbled through the off season etc…
838
839Regarding the conversion from K1 to K2 this could be of interest:
840http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9468334
841
842Essentially saying that it’s not gut flora that do the conversion.
843
844Thanks for the great convo.
845jesse
846
847Reply
848Vin Kutty, MS
849August 27, 2015 at 4:40 pm
850Hi Jesse – I rarely find faults with Mark’s articles, but I’m not certain I agree with this statement. Fat in diet aids transport and possibly rate of absorption. But I can’t think of any way (read or imagined) that fat aids in the conversion of K1 to K2. That’s simply not my understanding of biochemistry.
851
852Like with several nutrients, ancestral humans who migrated away from the equator (a recent event) probably experienced seasonal K2 feasts and famines. Remember that for the vast majority of human existence, we were a tropical/subtropical species where we had access to K2 year round.
853
854There are a couple of genes that code for the reductase enzymes that cleave and cobble appropriate substrates into MK-4. So this explain why we all don’t have crumbly bones and completely calcified arteries. And why vegetarians manage to deliver babies with fully formed skulls. We still make tiny bits of MK-4 ourselves from menadione (?) and/or K1. I have no clue if this is a secondary adaptation to seasonal availability of K2.
855
856Bacteroides synthesize MK-10 and 11. Enterobacteria make MK-8, Vellionella make MK-7 and Eubacterium make MK-6. So may be rats don’t need these bugs to make MK-n, but we certainly seem to do. It is a bad idea to extrapolate rat studies to humans when it comes to K2 because there is huge inter-species difference in ability to synthesize K2. There is very little inefficiency in biology, so it makes you think why these bugs are capable of synthesizing MKs with differing chain lengths. We have NO CLUE what MK-8 or MK-6 does for the human body. Why are these bugs producing it and what have we done by consuming antibiotics/delivering by c-section/formula feeding/hyper-clean living?
857
858We might have come a long way, but we’ve got a long way to go.
859
860Reply
861Bao Hoang
862October 1, 2015 at 6:46 pm
863Hi Vin,
864
865My wife is in the senventh week pregnancy. I want to know the best time that my wife can take full spectrum vitamin K2, how dosage ? Thanks
866
867Reply
868Vin Kutty, MS
869October 1, 2015 at 6:56 pm
870Hi Bao – check with her OB/GYN before you add anything new to her regimen. If she gets the OK, she may start taking it right away. Earlier the better and one pill per day should suffice.
871
872Reply
873Bao Hoang
874October 1, 2015 at 8:17 pm
875Hi Vin again,
876
877Thanks for your reply
878
879I see brand Life Extension Super K have vitamin K higher than brand Full Spectrum Vitamin K2 but price cheaper, should my wife take brand Life Extension ?
880
881Thanks
882
883Reply
884Vin Kutty, MS
885October 2, 2015 at 9:56 am
886Hi Bao – I recommended Life Extension’s K2 product to friends and family for several years. I no longer take or recommend that product.
887
888We did some testing on that product and found that they are using a form of K2 that is not well absorbed. Please read the section above with the sub-heading ‘Why I stopped taking the most popular K2 supplement and formulated our own.’
889
890Reply
891Hoang Phuong Binh
892October 1, 2015 at 11:01 pm
893Hi Vin,
894
895Please, I want to know Full Spectrum Vitamin K2 is taken in the morning or evening is the best. Thanks
896
897Reply
898Vin Kutty, MS
899October 2, 2015 at 9:59 am
900Hi Hoang – the time of day does not matter. What helps is if you take it with a large meal.
901
902Reply
903Bao Hoang
904October 4, 2015 at 12:24 am
905Hi Vin,
906
907http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/which-vitamin-k2-supplement-is-best-mk-4-or-mk-7/
908I have read above website link, they high recommended to take vitamin k2 mk7 form not mk4 because mk4 form is synthetic form but you said mk4 is better than mk7. May you explain why ? Thanks
909
910Reply
911Vin Kutty, MS
912October 4, 2015 at 9:21 am
913Hi Bao – please re-read the first half of this article. I explain all the issues raised in the article you link to. Many of the points listed in that article in misleading and misinformed. Sadly, the ‘facts’ quoted in that article are repeated marketing points of MK-7 sales companies. Since we sell both, I don’t have to be partial to either form, but to the published science.
914
915MK-7 and MK-4 are both equally synthetic. If you want natural Vitamin K2, then you need to eat fatty goose liver, natto, a lot of hard european cheeses, butter from grass fed cows, liver from grass-fed animals…if you’re OK doing that, you won’t need K2 supplements or most other supplements.
916
917Reply
918Brendon
919October 21, 2015 at 7:02 pm
920Hi Vin,
921
922Any idea if all mk-4s in the market today are made up of the cis and trans forms?
923
924Reply
925Vin Kutty, MS
926October 22, 2015 at 3:40 pm
927Hi Brendon – we don’t know that about MK-4 yet. We know how to make and analyze for the cis/trans forms of MK-7. Not quite there on MK-4.
928
929Reply
930Vin Kutty, MS
931November 11, 2015 at 2:41 pm
932Hi Brendon – just a follow up after checking with our quality control chemists. The MK-4 in our product tests as 99%+ trans. I don’t know if all MK-4 products on the market are all-trans. As of now, I’ve only tested competitors’ products for MK-7 cis/trans analysis. I can confirm that Nutrigold’s MK-7 is all-trans and meets all label claims. Dr. Best is all-trans MK-7 but they fell short on the amount of MK-7 (by a tiny bit). Life Extension…well, that was not pretty.
933
934Reply
935Aurjan
936November 22, 2015 at 9:25 am
937Your article on vitamin K is outstanding. Thanks for all the prime references supporting your work. I will tune in here much more often.
938
939It seems that many bloggers (including Sarah Pope- the Healthy Home Economist) heartily endorse MK 7 and are not informed about the importance of MK-4. I also would suppose that producing MK-7 is a fairly inexpensive process. I too like the Thorne MK4-D3 product. I just put two drops on my hand and lick it off. That’s the easiest way not to lose any of the product.
940
941The FCLO was tested for vitamins D3, A and K2 by various entities, including Weston A Price Foundation that supports its sale, with several samples, and showed very low on D and K2. D testing by Covance and a Norwegian Lab. MK4 testing by Vita K Labs in Netherlands (Dr. Cees Vermeer’s lab) in two samplings showed almost no MK4 (microgram per 1/2 teaspoon =.006910. The testing showed much more MK4 in butter oil and emu oil. There was a tiny amount of MK-6-9 in the FCLO but I suppose that is the result of bacterial contamination as bacteria make all MK’s except for MK4. So I doubt you are getting any or a reliable amount of MK-4 in the FCLO, but the vitamin A is unopposed because there is no/little D. This is not a good situation. FCLO was also tested for CoQ 10. The label claimed it contained this in the past but the Covance testing showed none.
942
943Reply
944Vin Kutty, MS
945November 23, 2015 at 7:55 am
946Hi Aurjan – relying on fermented cod liver oil for K2 is a mistake. If you’re going to consume stinky stuff, go for Natto! At least there’s tons of K2 in Natto.
947
948I get very annoyed when I read ‘expert bloggers’ and health authorities. They are not doing their homework. They are simply repeating the marketing message of the 3 or 4 companies that produce MK-7. Most of these companies are virulently anti-MK-4 because it is counter to their marketing narrative. I recently explained the need for MK-4 to our own MK-7 supplier – they had to listen to me because I am their customer! ? – basically the facts I state above. They make MK-7 and believed that MK-4 was worthless. After my explanation, they had no response. But I am certain they are back out there trashing MK-4.
949
950Most of the new research is on MK-7 and is industry-sponsored. So bloggers get the impression that MK-7 is all that matters. This is dangerous.
951
952When I first began formulating this product a few years ago, it was just MK-7 and K1. Then I dropped K1 as I researched further. And added MK-4 after more research.
953
954Reply
955binh hoang
956November 23, 2015 at 7:04 pm
957Hi Vin,
958
959I have read some websites where they said mother’s diet did not affect much breast milk quality. Now my wife is taking Omegavia DHA 600, Full Spectrum Vitamin K, Choline, Calcium and Mutivitamin prenatal. Should my wife maintain to take these supplements in the nursing period because they said it was not important. Please let me know above supplements which one get into breast milk ? I want her to continue taking above products but if it doesn’t througth breast milk is worthless. Please give me some advises
960
961Thanks for your support
962
963Reply
964Vin Kutty, MS
965November 24, 2015 at 10:40 am
966Hi binh – you should stop reading websites that say a mother’s diet does not affect breast milk quality! That’s nonsense! What a mother eats – food and supplements – will definitely affect the health of both the baby and the breast milk. This should not be a debate.
967
968Reply
969Julian Aster
970November 29, 2015 at 6:26 am
971Hi Vin,
972your k2 formulation would be perfect for me except for the bovine gelatin capsule… have you considered a vegetarian option ?
973
974Reply
975Vin Kutty, MS
976November 29, 2015 at 2:41 pm
977Hi Julian – there are no plans at this moment to change to a vegetarian option. Even if you are not a vegetarian, I see the appeal of a veggie softgel capsule…on paper. This is why we considered it. And then passed on it. Because when you start making it the capsule, you have to make the ‘gelatin’ with carageenan, corn starch, glycerin, sorbitol, and a long list of other ingredients that puts a people off. Not to mention a significant increase in cost.
978
979Reply
980Prabdeep
981December 16, 2015 at 5:00 am
982Hi Vin,
983
984Thank you very much for creating this product and for sharing this invaluable information with us all.
985
986It appears that your product is the best vitamin k2 product on the market, as far as my own research goes. Please consider selling this to UK based retailers because i live in the UK.
987
988I have some questions for you:
989
9901) Why have you used gelatin as an ingredient?
991
9922) Are the capsules vegetable capsules or gelatin capsules?
993
9943) How much of the vitamin k2, both mk4 and mk7, is actually bio-available, absorb-able, and usable by the consumer’s body?
995
996The following link below explain why vegetable capsules might be a better option than gelatin capsules
997
998Gelatin capsules. Gelatin capsules are absorbed twice as well as a tablet and do not require pressure or heat to capture the vital ingredients. Unfortunately, gelatin capsules utilize a toxic preservative and are made from animal body parts,such as hooves, that carry the risk of prion exposure from BSE (bovine spongiform encephalopathy). In addition, they are twice as expensive as a tablet. Their absorption can be delayed when consumed with cold liquids.
999
1000Vcaps (vegetable capsules). Vcaps are twice as well absorbed as a gelatin capsule, regardless of the temperature of the fluid consumed with the capsule. They have no riskof toxic prion exposure and contain no toxic preservatives. However, they do cost twice as much as a gelatin capsule.
1001
1002Source: http://www.totalhealthsecrets.com/ENGLISH/resources/articleDetail.php?articles_id=46
1003
1004Also vegetable capsules are absorbed twice as better as gelatin capsules so I would like to know how much of the different forms of vitamin k2 in your product are actually bioavailable, absorbable, and usable by the consumer’s body.
1005
1006I would like to hear from one of the founders and creators of the product, such as Vin Kutty regarding this.
1007
1008I know you have partially discussed this issue already on this blog but I’m interested on further details.
1009
1010I thank you in advance
1011
1012Reply
1013Vin Kutty, MS
1014December 16, 2015 at 1:04 pm
1015Hi Prabdeep – thank you.
1016
1017Answers to your questions:
1018
10191 and 2: Gelatin is the softgel capsule shell. It is of bovine origin. We could have made the softgels using ‘veggie gelatin’ but the ingredients that go into making it is rather ‘chemically’ and disturbing to many. Veggie ‘gelatin’ also makes for very hard shells with sharp creases, which makes for difficult swallowing. Vegetable ‘gelatin’ is also expensive.
1020
10213. As far as we know, over 97% should be available for absorption because it is in the proper TRANS isomer form.
1022
1023The link provided for vegetable capsules is, in my opinion, poorly researched and not objective. When I design/formulate OmegaVia or InnovixLabs products, I’m really making them for me, my family, and friends – these are people I care about deeply. If there is any way I can improve the product, I’ll do it. Given current technology, I am thoroughly unconvinced that using a vegetable capsule is better. But that might change in a year or two.
1024
1025Reply
1026Prabdeep
1027December 19, 2015 at 4:17 am
1028Thanks very much Vin.
1029
1030I am going to order the life extension super k as a temporary product until I can get your product.
1031
1032I appreciate your kind help in this matter.
1033
1034I will update you with my progress
1035
1036Best wishes and merry xmas and happy new year
1037
1038Reply
1039Jay
1040December 29, 2015 at 11:40 am
1041Hi Vin,
1042
1043Thanks for all the wonderful information you have been sharing and your responses to the questions. you are doing a service to the society.
1044
1045I have one question in regards to Vitamin K2 for kids, you have mentioned that both forms of K2 (MK-4,MK-7) are important as they serve different function in human body. Is there one product available in liquid that has covered both of these for kids?
1046We live in northern hemisphere, west Coast of Canada where it is not easy to get some appreciable amount of sun exposure especially during winters/fall and spring.
1047
1048So we usually supplement with D3 5000IU for myself and my wife and 1000IU for kids every day. But since we do not eat levers so likely are not getting much Vitamin A (Retinol) so will be adding Now Vitamin A from fish lever oil on your recommendation, and K2. would it also be ok to give liquid Vitamin A to kids. if what should be the ratio between A and D..
1049
1050Was about to order Thorne K2 on your advise but it does not have any Mk-7 in it so not sure would we still order it or not. we do eat some KerryGold butter everyday.
1051
1052Will appreciate your response on it..
1053
1054Best Regards
1055Jay
1056
1057Reply
1058Vin Kutty, MS
1059December 29, 2015 at 2:40 pm
1060Hi Jay – I’m not aware of one liquid K2 product that provides both MK-4 and MK-7 forms of K2. I give my kids liquid MK-4 from Thorne and MK-7 from a company called Floz inc. Not sure if both are available in Canada. I also give them occasional liquid A drop from Seeking Health. The ratio of A to D that I give my kids is 5:1 but that isn’t a ‘carved in stone’ thing.
1061
1062All this is giving me great new product ideas – thanks! ?
1063
1064Reply
1065Jay
1066December 29, 2015 at 8:02 pm
1067Hi Vin,
1068
1069Thank you much for your prompt response, I will look into the suggested products. But I think if we can have single product likely liquid for kids with 4,7,K1 lot of people like me can be benefited.
1070
1071Hopefully we will see some formulation from Innovix based on these lines in future.
1072
1073Best
1074Jay
1075
1076Reply
1077Vin Kutty, MS
1078December 30, 2015 at 9:23 am
1079Hi Jay – if we ever make a liquid K2 product for kids (not promising anything), it will not have K1. See article above for reasons why. But may add some D3 and A. Adding Vit A to the formula will guarantee poor sales because people are bizarrely scared of it.
1080
1081Reply
1082Chris
1083June 19, 2016 at 10:07 am
1084Hi Vin,
1085May I know how old are your kids when you started them on MK4 and MK7 directly (not via breast milk)?
1086
1087My 2 months old infant gets his MK4 from breast milk, via 1mg Thorne drops that mommy takes daily. I started him on D3 (400IU) and probiotics since he is one month old but hesistant on MK4 as I couldn’t find any articles on upper limit for infants.
1088
1089Would be very grateful if you can share your childrens’ regime.
1090
1091Our doctors have not heard of vitamin K2 (or Choline for that matter).
1092
1093Reply
1094Vin Kutty
1095June 19, 2016 at 12:37 pm
1096Hi Chris – I’ve been giving them low doses of K2 since just before they could walk. They now simply chew the InnovixLabs K2 softgel a couple of times a week. Or 7-8 drops of the Thorne liquid MK-4.
1097
1098If mom has sufficient MK-4, the infant should be fine. I would not supplement a 2 month old with K2.
1099
1100Reply
1101Chris
1102June 20, 2016 at 4:08 pm
1103Hi Vin,
1104Thanks so much for your reply.
1105
1106Just to check which version of Thorne did you use for your children? K2 or D/K2? The K2 has 1 mg of MK-4 per drop where as D/K2 has 100mcg per drop (but also has 500IU D3 per drop).
1107
1108What is your view on feeding DHA directly to infants instead of via breast milk? Couple of brands including Nordics has liquid DHA/EPA for babies. I’m wary of other ingredients in the bottle. Seems safer to have mommy filters them before passing the DHA to junior via breast milk. The downside is we have no clue how much DHA he is getting via breast milk though mommy is taking 1g DHA daily.
1109
1110Reply
1111Vin Kutty
1112June 22, 2016 at 9:06 am
1113Chris – I’ve used the Thorne product that has 1000 mcg MK-4 per drop.
1114
1115As long as the baby is breast feeding, then have mommy take the DHA. 1 gram per day is good enough. Enough of it will get passed onto to baby.
1116
1117Reply
1118Carrie
1119July 6, 2016 at 1:27 pm
1120Hi Vin,
1121I have search many information about K2-MK7 a lot as I have serve allergy to soy.As I have serve psoriasis, I would like to have a try for it with Vitamin D3 and magnesium chloride.However, I found that most form of K2-MK7 is the fermentation of soy i.e natto. My psoriasis become worse after I ate natto.So I decide to find the another source of K2-mk7. Have you heard Ortho Molecular Product Liquid Vitamin D3 with K2 this product? I found it on the internet.It states that its K2-MK7 is not from natto. It is come from a company called Kappa Bioscience AS.They name it call k2vital.Do you think it is the safe ingredient for supplement?I am so allergic to soy so I hope it could be the alternative.
1122Also,I would like to ask the amount of dosage K2-MK7,Vitamin D3 and magnesium should I take.I am not familar with these supplements.I really hope you could give me some advice to me.Many Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
1123
1124Reply
1125Vin Kutty
1126July 14, 2016 at 7:01 pm
1127HI Carrie – try an anti-inflammatory diet for psoriasis, along with Omega-3 and Curcumin to reduce inflammation. Allergy to soy is the least of your problems.
1128
1129You can get K2 from cheese, chicken and eggs. If not, there are several K2 products without soy. Our InnovixLabs offers a soy free one on Amazon.com There is a liquid MK-4 item from Thorne. K2Vital is good.
1130
1131Aim for 100 to 200 mcg of MK-7 per day. D3 dosage depends on how much sun you get, how much you already have in your body and your diet. But given that, most people need abotu 4000 to 5000 IU per day. You’ll need 400 to 600 mg of Magnesium per day, combined from foods and supplements. A little more if OK. Pass on Magnesium chloride and mag oxide – go with citrate, glycinate, malate, and other organic forms.
1132
1133Reply
1134Martin
1135July 15, 2016 at 5:40 pm
1136Hi Vin
1137You made the statement that persons on a blood thinner ( warfarin) should not be taking k2 because warfarin will make k2 ineffective same as k1. Warfarin does not make k1 ineffective or at least totally ineffective. Depending on the dosage some k1 is getting through or you would bleed to death. for example my INR is 2.0 to 3.0. I maintain this INR with 5 mg tablet once per day I can increase my INR to 5.0 to 6.0 and risk severe bleeding. I maintain a consistent diet of green leafy vegetables. If I eat more my INR drops and my dose increases. If I eat less my INR goes up and my dose decreases. I can eat as much as I want of liver, grass fed butter and eggs as these have no effect on my INR. Bottom line as I see it is if this food has no effect on my INR then my INR has no effect on the food.
1138A person on Warfarin has less k1 to convert to k2 which would lead to more calification in the arteries which has been pretty much been established.
1139
1140I have been taking your formula for the past two months. My INR has not changed. My dosage of Warfarin has remained exactly the same as before (5 mgs).
1141I have recently discovered that I have a moderate valve blockage caused mainly by calcium. The doctor measured the opening in square centimeters. I am due for an appointment in nine months. This will be the real test for k2 since we can see if the opening remains the same or increases or decreases. Normally the opening is expected to decrease by .1 centimeter per year unless on a blood thinner such as warfarin which of course makes it worse.
1142
1143I have researched k2 on a number of websites and have selected your product because it makes the best argument for being the best. This is a new science and there is a lot of unknowns. I go along with what now makes the most sense.
1144
1145Reply
1146Vin Kutty
1147July 18, 2016 at 8:27 pm
1148Hi Martin – the reason why we state that people on blood thinners should/not take K2 is because anyone taking Warfarin has an existing doctor-patient relationship. And we’d prefer to shift that discussion between you and your doctor for several reasons, mostly related to regulatory and legal limitations.
1149
1150K1 is generally believed to influence INR more than K2. This could be why you’re not noticing much change in your INR with the consumption of K2 heavy foods or supplements. If that is the case, let’s hope your next appointment in 9 months gives you some good news.
1151
1152Reply
1153Hilary
1154August 8, 2016 at 1:35 pm
1155Many thanks for that fantastic info regarding K2.
1156I have osteoporosis and just recovering from Polymyalgia Rheumatica and now, thankfully, on low dose of steroid medication (2mg prednisolone)
1157Refuse the usual Fossimax etc treatments for osteoporosis and prefer the natural way
1158Diet as natural as possible……… Lots of Cheese..Brie and cheddar, grass fed butter and eggs,some poultry and fish and plenty veg and fruit. Maybe Jarleberg would be better.
1159Try to walk etc for bone density.
1160
1161Have been taking K2 Doctor’s Best 45mcg. But considering Nutrigold …… however, nervous of going on higher dose ? Could I start by using 100mcg alternate days ??
1162Any other advice you could offer would be greatly appreciated.
1163Hilary
1164
1165Reply
1166Vin Kutty
1167August 8, 2016 at 7:54 pm
1168Hi Hilary – unlike the other fat-soluble vitamins, A, D, and E, Vitamin K2 does not get stored or build up in the body. So you have no risk of overdosing. 45 mcg is too low, especially for someone with bone issues. I take 100 mcg or 200 mcg of MK-7 and DO NOT forget MK-4. Your cheese consumption will take care of MK-8 and 9, so no worries there. You need to look at K2 as a complex. Do not take JUST MK-7. If you already have a bottle of the Nutrigold MK-7 (good company and good people!) then get a bottle of the Thorne MK-4, which you can (and should!) add to your MK-7 routine.
1169
1170Cook your meat ‘bone-in’ for more calcium. Make sure your D3 levels are optimal and get at least 400 mg of Magnesium via supplements every day. Walk a lot. Then add resistance exercise and possibly yoga.
1171
1172Reply
1173Bob.K
1174August 8, 2016 at 2:24 pm
1175Hi Vin,
1176My 77 year mom, has 5 stents, and is on Plavic , one blood vessel in neck completely clog, other 50%. My question is , is it safe to give her the larger dose of K4/K7, or start off with a smaller one. no others,that offer K4 at all in lower dose, and from what I understand lower is not effective…is this true…..???
1177
1178VITAMIN K2 (by InnovixLabs) seems Great, is it too much for her ?
1179
1180Thanks for your time. Bob.k
1181
1182Reply
1183Vin Kutty
1184August 8, 2016 at 8:08 pm
1185Hi Bob – before you do anything, check with her doctor. If the doctors is fine with her taking K2, then one or two pills daily of the InnovixLabs K2 should be fine. It’s virtually impossible to overdose of K2 since it is not stored in the body.
1186
1187Reply
1188Nik
1189August 15, 2016 at 6:11 am
1190Hi Vin,
1191
1192Very good read, thank you. In some cases you even suggest the Thorne mk-4 drops although having your own stuff to sell. Stand up sh*t dude ?
1193I do think “Fish Oil Articles” could be “Blog” or something instead. More people could easily benefit from the articles not only on fish oil but never find them..
1194
1195Reply
1196Vin Kutty
1197August 15, 2016 at 4:54 pm
1198Thank you, Nik. Will consider your good suggestion.
1199
1200Reply
1201Nik
1202August 26, 2016 at 8:23 am
1203Asked a few questions – but can’t see that they have showed up ?
1204
1205Reply
1206Vin Kutty
1207August 26, 2016 at 5:09 pm
1208Hi Nik – please re-post if you can. I don’t see any questions on my end.
1209
1210Reply
1211Richard S
1212September 6, 2016 at 3:48 am
1213Hi Vin
1214
1215Thanks for your exceptionally informative post. Very helpful.
1216
1217In your response to Brendon (11 Nov 2015) you write
1218
1219“just a follow up after checking with our quality control chemists. The MK-4 in our product tests as 99%+ trans. I don’t know if all MK-4 products on the market are all-trans.”
1220
1221Two questions if I may. Your response to Brendon suggests that there are two isomers of MK-4: cis and trans. Is that the case? If so, then given that you recommend Thorne’s MK-4 product, have you confirmed that – like your product – it’s 99%+ trans?
1222
1223Many thanks
1224
1225Richard
1226
1227Reply
1228Vin Kutty
1229September 6, 2016 at 7:45 pm
1230Hi Richard – I have not tested the Thorne item to see if it is also mostly in the trans form. Now that you bring it up, I am curious. You may be able to get a quick answer from their customer service people.
1231
1232Reply
1233Richard S
1234September 14, 2016 at 5:41 pm
1235My note to Thorne.
1236
1237“Hi I’ve read that the vitamin K2 subtype MK-7 can be either cis or trans. I’m wondering if MK-4 can also be either cis or trans. If so, is the MK4 in Thorne products trans, cis or a mixture of the two? Many thanks Richard Starkey”
1238
1239Thorne’s reply.
1240
1241“Hello Richard:
1242Thank you for your email.
1243Our Vitamin K2 is MK4 which is trans.
1244I hope this information is helpful.”
1245
1246So there you have it!
1247
1248Reply
1249Vin Kutty
1250September 18, 2016 at 7:20 pm
1251Thanks, Richard.
1252
1253Reply
1254Molly McFadden
1255September 21, 2016 at 7:45 pm
1256Hello,
1257I have just been put on Vascepa for my cholesterol, the triglycerides mainly. I am investigating alternatives because I can’t afford Vascepa. Would your product bring about similar if not the same results as say a Vascepa or Nordic Natural Fish Oil. I am new to all of this information. I appreciate your information and counsel.
1258Thank you,
1259Molly McFadden
1260
1261Reply
1262Vin Kutty
1263September 22, 2016 at 5:36 pm
1264Hi Molly – our product is similar to Nordic Naturals, but it is more concentrated. You may also want to look at OmegaVia EPA 500, which is an EPA-only formula. Vascepa is a drug. OmegaVia is a supplement. They are not the same – you need to discuss this openly with your doctor.
1265
1266Reply
1267Luis quimi
1268November 4, 2016 at 10:49 pm
1269Hi Vin what brand of K2 Mk4 recommend and for my wife we trying to conceived. She is taking prenatal nordic Dha and Vitamin D5,000 with K2 MK7 90 mpg from Michael Neuropathic Supplement. (2 pills) because she tested her Vitamin D level two month ago and it was 24. Taking that supplest raised her level to 48. She would need to add MK4 or just eat grass feed butter, cheese, chicken liver. How much she should eat that everyday… Im worry about her nauseas on the first trimestre. So don’t know she will handle it that or its better to take a supplement. What should be the right dosage MK4. Thanks
1270
1271Reply
1272Vin Kutty
1273November 5, 2016 at 12:51 am
1274Hi Luis – glad that she is at least taking MK-7. Have her talk to her OB/GYN about taking MK-4. Thorne’s MK-4 drops are good. Or our sister company makes an MK-4 and MK-7 blend under the InnovixLabs brand. Aim for 500 to 1000 mcg of MK-4 per day.
1275
1276Reply
1277Luis Quimi
1278November 6, 2016 at 4:56 am
1279Thank for answer. I have another wuestion can be silly I would like to know there is not way to get overdose with vitamin K supplements. 500-1000mcg looks like a huge dose If I compared with one of my wofe prenatal that has 50 and Vitamin d3 combo with K mk7 thas has 90mcg. Im worry that my wife take so much and cause anybirth defect to our future baby. Thanks
1280
1281Reply
1282Vin Kutty
1283November 6, 2016 at 7:03 pm
1284Hi Luis – this is why I asked you to check with her OB/GYN. This is a medical decision since your wife is pregnant. It is not a general health/diet question. Medical questions need to addressed by your physician.
1285
1286Outside of pregnancy, generally, the dosage for MK-4 is 5 to 10X that of MK-7. Neither forms of K2 stay in the body for very long. MK-4 only stays in the serum for a couple of hours. MK-7 for a couple of days. So an overdose due to long term accumulation (like you can have with many other nutrients) is not physiologically likely.
1287
1288Reply
1289Bennie
1290December 7, 2016 at 10:41 pm
1291Hello Vin,
1292Impressive analisys. Im using Vitabay mk7 drops but read that k2 is light sensitive and the bottle is transparent. Should i wrap the bottle in alu minium foil or better go for pills ? Thank you.
1293Best regards,
1294Bennie
1295
1296Reply
1297Vin Kutty
1298December 15, 2016 at 5:01 pm
1299Hi Bennie – yes, K2 is light sensitive. I would discard the bottle you have and use a product that has both colored pill/bottle to block light.
1300
1301Reply
1302Bennie
1303December 18, 2016 at 2:56 pm
1304Hello Vin,
1305Thank you for answering my question. That was very helpful. I would take InnovixLabs if it was available in the Netherlands, but found an alternative.
1306Best regards,
1307Bennie
1308
1309Reply
1310Elsha
1311December 31, 2016 at 6:00 am
1312Hello Vin,
1313I so appreciate your information on vit k2! My 22 year old son is severely disabled and is fed directly into the stomach with a feeding tube. He has severe osteoporosis but on the whole is very healthy. Two years ago I figured out how to puree food and give this through his feeding tube rather than formula. I would really like to give him your Full Spectrum Vit K2 capsules but need to know if I can pierce them with a needle perhaps and either squeeze the capsule contents into his mouth or directly into the syringe I use to administer his food. I think I’d prefer to squeeze it into the syringe but what would you suggest? How much should I give him with his severe osteoporosis? Thank-you very much!
1314
1315Reply
1316Vin Kutty
1317January 2, 2017 at 10:27 pm
1318Hi Elsha – if his doctor is OK with this plan, then, yes, you may pierce it and give to him mixed with this food. There may be some squirting or spilling of the capsule content during the process since the contents of the pill may be under some pressure.
1319
1320Reply
1321Elsha
1322January 3, 2017 at 12:33 am
1323His doctor is fine with most everything I do but I’m thinking now he would need high dose of the MK4 for the osteoporosis, correct? In the posts I’ve also been reading about the Thorne MK4. Would you recommend adding this on to your product? How much MK4 and MK7 should I shoot for with his osteoporosis? I don’t think my doctor can possibly guide me in this area.
1324
1325Reply
1326Vin Kutty
1327January 3, 2017 at 7:56 pm
1328Hi Elsha – I dont think you will need more MK-4 than what’s in one of our capsules. But, there is no harm in adding a little more MK-4 using the Thorne product.
1329
1330Reply
1331Jennifer
1332January 5, 2017 at 11:53 pm
1333Thank you for all this information on K2. I found this site since I have been researching bone health for my 16 year old daughter who stopped menstruating over a year ago. She is very healthy, but is very athletic (swims and runs track) and has little body fat. We are mostly vegetarian, but consume some fish. According to our doctors, the concern about not menstruating is that without enough estrogen in her body she will not build up adequate bone strength during these crucial years. I am hoping that adding K2 to her regimen will help bring calcium to her bones. What I would like to know is if K2 will help her in the absence of adequate estrogen? I am very concerned about her developing early onset osteoperosis. She does eat dairy and eggs, both organic and from pasture raised animals as much is possible, she also supplements with vitamin D3. She has also been supplementing with calcium, but after researching more about calcium supplements, I’m no longer sure this is the way to go. I could really use some good advice on the best supplements for my daughter to build her bone strength and hopefully avoid osteoperosis in the future. Thank you in advance!
1334
1335Reply
1336Vin Kutty
1337January 7, 2017 at 6:26 pm
1338Hi Jennifer – ‘little body fat and runs track’ are hints at what might be unbalanced. How much healthy fats does she consume? Think fish oil, flax oil, butter, olive oil, and even coconut oil. If it is low, then she needs to focus on getting a lot more of all of the above. When I hear ‘vegetarian,’ I immediately get concerned because my mind first goes to: I wonder if they are eating mostly grains with very little fat. That’d be the wrong way to do vegetarian. The right way is with mostly vegetables, fruits, nuts, beans, lentils. Even better if you can add fish and eggs to vegetables. Fermented dairy may be OK for some people too. Be very generous with fish, eggs, and the fats mentioned above. Fats control an awful lot of hormone activity.
1339
1340Supplements should be an afterthought. Fix the diet first.
1341
1342Reply
1343Sara
1344March 17, 2018 at 1:13 pm
1345Hi Jennifer,
1346
1347How is your daughter doing? I had a similar problem long ago, but my menses resumed quite quickly. So I was wondering… If I posted the question “is she right-handed or left handed?”, you would ask “why does it matter?” I’ll explain in a while.
1348
1349Also, it is rather Mg, the element that converts into Ca, in the body. Louis Kervran discovered that biological transmutations is the norm, not the exception. You are right about the Ca-supplements, which mostly cause overdosing. We primarily need plenty of Mg together with other nutrients.
1350
1351Teenagers need a good diet, but they also need to be listened attentively and tenderly. Because they are building an identity, above all.
1352According to the GNM (German New Medicine, a complete guide on how the psyche affects the biological procedures – newmedicine.ca), estrogen production is halted by a psychological issue (some shocking event). By default each problem’s context affects a relative biological function.
1353So the problem that can affect the female hormones has to do with “femininity” and generally the “identity” of the person. It could be something as simple as an unjust insult. But if the person was caught by surprise, then, even that unimportant event could affect both the psyche and the physical body. Keep in mind that we are taken by surprise more easily when something unpleasant happens within the “friends and family” environment, because that’s where we are rather trustful, while, in a situation which we have not yet explored, we are still on guard. So, if a stranger insults us, we’ll think that he’s being hostile. But if an uncle, or a neighbor, or a teacher… says something improper out of insensitivity, then we might take it to heart.
1354
1355By the way, the 2 ‘relays’ (brain-centers) controlling the secretion of the sexual hormones, are also involved in the control of the coronaries – arteries and veins. So, the former affect the latter as well. And as time passes, problems can only get more complicated, if left uncared of. And even then, “care” has to be very discrete. Delicate handling of situations. Because, inquiring, asking questions in a straightforward manner, in many cases, especially with kids and teenagers, (where a hidden old psychological wound remains partly healed and partly hurting silently) can bring no results; actually, the person with the problem will most possibly find him or herself trying to camouflage the psychological wound (as an instinctive reaction).
1356So, yeah… No playing with the psyche!
1357
1358No menstruation, usually means that the relay of the coronary veins has been “shut-down”. If the female is right-handed, then, she just had a psychological shocking event to do with her “identity”. If she is a left-handed, then, things must have been more complicated, as this must have been her second “such-conflict”, but it must have been more severe than the first one. The impact must have been more intense. And the two conflicts have probably happened quite ‘apart’. Probably more than 3 months apart. Could be a few years apart… Otherwise, the person shows no obvious physical disturbances but… starts to develop some characteristic ‘traits’.
1359More info, on http://www.gnmonlineseminars.com.
1360
1361Another thought is: The fact that your daughter is quite thin may imply another conflict affecting her digestion-relays, some sort of anorexia. We all carry all sorts of conflicts, which drain us energetically and physically. Most of us hardly ever become aware of them all, what exactly they are and how they affect us. This way, they tend to be ruling our lives, from the subconscious and on the cellular level.
1362
1363If you are wondering, how my menses resumed…
1364In an instance which should have been “another daily routine”, obeying my mother’s prompt, to go, do some errand… I had an unpleasant, unexpected event and that event (a so-called second sexual conflict), although not really serious, was more intense than the first one. As a result: not only the menses resumed but after that second issue (the first, being an insult; the second, being a threat), I used to have “heavy menses” for years. Until I felt quite safe in non-familiar environments or where unknown men were near. And after that psychological shift, which is always taking place gradually, at a rather sub-conscious level (because we hardly ever notice – consciously – those fears etc which we wish to forget), my menses eventually became gradually lighter.
1365I didn’t realize all that, until I followed the above seminars…repeatedly. It took me a lot of psychology-work, within myself, to realize the obvious, because I had to admit those old fears and wounds – admit it all… to myself!!!
1366And then I realized something really weird: Had I not had the second conflict quite soon, I might have been suffering other problems, perhaps more serious… And so, I once again verified the old saying:
1367There is always a little good in every bad thing or event. And vice versa.
1368
1369Reply
1370Brenda Wasko
1371January 30, 2017 at 5:44 pm
1372I appreciate this article and blog, I just recently started taking the Thorne product. I will be looking into your product when finished with this one. My question is off topic but I would love to hear your response. I am a 57 year old woman and I have heard varying information regarding Calcium supplements over the years. Some say to take 1,500mg of Calcium per day, others say that amount will cause more harm than good because it can actually cause plaque build up in the arteries. Can you please enlighten me on this topic?
1373
1374Reply
1375Vin Kutty
1376February 1, 2017 at 12:09 pm
1377Hi Brenda – I don’t think you need to take 1500 mg of Calcium daily if: 1) you have a good diet (whole foods with fish/meat cooked bone-in, veggies, nuts, eggs, fruits) and 2) if you consume enough magnesium and K2 and 3) get enough D3 from sunlight and/or supplements. 1500 mg daily may be OK if have just been diagnosed with osteoporosis, but you should split it into two doses AND you take the other cofactors (Magnesium, D3, K2 etc.) along with the calcium. Otherwise, I see no reason for anyone to supplement more than 500 or 600 mg at a time.
1378
1379Reply
1380Haifa
1381February 21, 2017 at 11:51 am
1382I heard that K2 supplement kills cancerous tumors. how true is this?
1383Will taking K2 help in breast cancer?
1384
1385Reply
1386Vin Kutty
1387February 22, 2017 at 12:07 am
1388Hi Haifa – I have not seen any research that shows K2 kills cancer cells. If there is any truth behind this claim, the science needs to be stronger.
1389
1390Reply
1391Haifa
1392February 23, 2017 at 8:59 am
1393Thank you Vin
1394
1395Reply
1396David Sander
1397June 13, 2017 at 9:48 pm
1398Actually, yes. The best results are with liver cancer where there is a 90% reduction in liver cancer rates with patients in research trials taking MK4 vitamin K2. There is no reduction noted with MK7 vitamin K2.
1399
1400Reply
1401Laura
1402March 2, 2017 at 4:35 pm
1403Hello, I am a bit late for this thread but would appreciate your insights.
1404I have tried mk 7 form of vitamin k2, both in 45 and 90 Mcg dosages. I found myself with accelerated heartbeat and a feeling of extreme raciness. I do take Valsartan 320 for blood pressure and Synthroid for Hashimotos and check levels regularly.
1405Any thoughts and suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
1406
1407Reply
1408Vin Kutty
1409March 2, 2017 at 6:27 pm
1410Hi Laura – try MK-4 form of Vitamin K2.
1411
1412Reply
1413Lori
1414February 28, 2018 at 3:45 am
1415Recently I took a few drops of Thorne’s Mk-4 based on my autistic daughter’s great success with taking about 3000mcg/daily. I gave it for periodontal reasons but it seems that it more so helped her behavior and quite substantially. Nevertheless, I decided to take some myself because I have a couple of sensitive teeth and at that level of 2000-3000mcg daily of mk-4, I get a sense of nervousness which I normally never have. On the other hand, I have taken Jarrow’s mk-7 mcg 90 and have not had any benefits nor side effects. Maybe I need to drop down to a much lower amount or try the above mentioned Innovix. We do use Innovix for their magnesium malate/ magnesium glycinate capsules.
1416
1417Reply
1418Laura
1419March 2, 2017 at 4:36 pm
1420Also… what is the best calcium/magnesium supplementation?
1421
1422Reply
1423Vin Kutty
1424March 2, 2017 at 6:31 pm
1425Hi Laura – I usually don’t tell people to supplement with calcium unless their diet is awful. In which case, I recommend 500-600 mg of Calcium in citrate form. I prefer to take all the other ‘supportive’ nutrients to better utilize the calcium that may already be present in the diet – magnesium, D3, K2 etc. Aim for 400 mg of Magnesium daily, preferably from one of the better absorbed forms like glycinate and malate. Our sister company, InnovixLabs, makes one: http://innovixlabs.com/products/advanced-magnesium/
1426
1427Reply
1428Christian
1429March 2, 2017 at 7:23 pm
1430Hy ,
1431Thanks you for the great article.
1432About the “CIS” vs “TRANS” version. Is this only valid for the MK7 or is it also the case for MK4 ??
1433
1434Reply
1435Vin Kutty
1436March 3, 2017 at 1:11 am
1437Hi Christian – it applies to both MK-4 and MK-7.
1438
1439Reply
1440Christian
1441March 3, 2017 at 6:10 pm
1442Thanks Vin,
1443I also send a mail to “Now Foods” to ask them how and where their MK4 and MK7 are produced and if they ever tested the % Trans contents.
1444Their answer is “All-trans Vitamin K-2 ( menaquinone-4) is produced from natural fermentation from yeast here in USA”….
1445I read everywhere that MK4 is synthetic as it is only “naturally” found in animals..
1446I can nowhere find that MK4 can be made by yeast fermentation.
1447So the fact they say via yeast fermentation sounds strange…
1448I also asked if they are “Bioidentical” and they say “The term “bio-identical” typically applies to hormones, not vitamins. Obviously both are natural forms of vitamin K-2″.
1449This is also contradicting things I read a few places.
1450I guess the reply is from a representative who does not have the lab background.
1451Any thoughts..
1452Regards,
1453Christian
1454
1455Reply
1456Vin Kutty
1457March 3, 2017 at 7:54 pm
1458Hi Christian – yes, I have several thoughts, but this is what I can say: sorting through information you get from companies, especially if it is scientific information, can be difficult and/or confusing. The individual within the company responding to your query also makes a difference.
1459
1460Reply
1461Jerry
1462March 15, 2017 at 2:50 pm
1463You seem to emphasize the importance of MK-4 over MK-7 so why does it matter that the original formula you were taking was not 100% trans? Even if it was 100% trans doesn’t it still need proper co-factors such as A, D, Mg, in order to be properly absorbed? What about MK-4? Is there no cis- / trans- concern there?
1464
1465Reply
1466Vin Kutty
1467March 15, 2017 at 5:54 pm
1468Hi Jerry – both MK-4 and MK-7 need to be in the trans form.
1469
1470I don’t know if the Life Extension item uses trans MK-4. But I know that when we tested, Life Extension was not using all-trans MK-7. I emphasize the importance of MK-4 because most people (and companies selling K2) seem to think that MK-7 is all that is required – and that is false. They are distinct molecules with different purposes and effects, as the article above states. You need both, and in the trans form. There are other MK types that we need but they are not available as supplements, but only in fermented foods and some animal fats.
1471
1472Vitamin K2 does not need co-factors like D3, magnesium, and A for absorption. Calcium does.
1473
1474Reply
1475prioris
1476April 6, 2017 at 7:05 pm
1477What you have written about has been a nagging question to me for the last 4 years. So good job that youtook time to research this question. Virtually no websites touch upon these issues. They just say MK7 is the best with reason that it stays in blood serum. That has never stood well with me. So many things can’t be measured from blood serum.
1478
1479I am male near age 60. The most important health issue for old people is calcification. That is why most end up dying.
1480
1481The reason I amusing K2 is for removing calcification. I don’t see any research saying MK7 will help with removing calfication but only MK4.
1482
1483I remember reading an anecdote from a 90 year old gentlemen who took MK7 for years to protect his heart from calcification. He seemed very health conscious. He ended up having heart valve surgery and wondered why MK7 did not protect him from calcificatioon.
1484
1485I take 2000 IU D3 and 3000 IU cod liver oil. Borax weekly for boron. I minimize calcium to no more than 200mg. I take 1000mg of original milk of magnesia. I will vary butyric acid with calcium, potassium and salt forms. I want calcium deposits to get used. I keep calcium supplements to 100mg or less a day. Also take Cordiart / Pomegranate for any endothelian dysfunction.
1486
1487I am taking the Relentless brand with 15mg / 60mcg MK4 / MK7 twice a day to remove calcification from body. If I was younger, I would opt for lower dose like your brand. Does this seem reasonable to you and any info about info you have come across regarding that brand.
1488
1489Reply
1490Vin Kutty
1491April 6, 2017 at 8:58 pm
1492Hi Prioris – thank you. Serum half-life is a terrible way to measure the utility of many nutrients and substances. MK-7 has serious marketing forces behind it. MK-4 does not. This is part (or most) of the problem.
1493
1494Having said that, we are embarking on a new adventure with many people supplementing never-before-seen-in-humans levels of MK-7. We might get lucky and find out that super-high MK-7 may actually REVERSE established calcification. We can’t say that yet, but I hope it works out that way. Until then, it is wise to take MK-4 along with your MK-7.
1495
1496Your plan sounds original and informed. However, calcium is not the enemy. You still need it to function. Whether this protocol works can only be determined with a coronary calcium scan or the like. Work with your doctor on all this. Good luck and keep us posted.
1497
1498Reply
1499David Sander
1500June 13, 2017 at 10:00 pm
1501Hi Prioris,
1502You seem to be doing everything right in terms of making it possible for the body to remove calcium. the vitamin D3, MK4 vitaminK2, Retinol Vitamin A (in cod liver oil) and boron will all help with this. The boron dose should be in the 18 mg to 35 mg range. Have a look at Dr Jorge Fletchas video report on Boron for more information. There is a CAC test you can request to check on your ongoing calcium deposit status. Artery calcification is a major predictor of poor heart health.
1503
1504Other things that can lead to artery calcification are steroid drugs or high cortisol levels, anorexia, heavy exercise, and long term use of warfarin blood thinning drugs.
1505
1506Reply
1507Joe
1508April 7, 2017 at 3:00 pm
1509I’ve been taking a K2 supplement from GNC that is 100mcg MK7. Not much I know, but had to get started with something.
1510
1511The first time I took it I had terrible stomach distress which took several days to get over. So the next time I took a dose, thinking perhaps the pill was the problem and not the contents, I sliced it and ingested only the contents, and not the whole pill. Voila, no distress! But then I began to wonder if K2 tolerates stomach acid, and if I was getting the whole benefit, needing the pill and not only the contents.
1512
1513Anyway, I look forward to trying your product as it is obviously a better supplement. Hopefully the whole pill goes down with no problems.
1514
1515Thanks for all the great information.
1516
1517Joe
1518
1519Reply
1520Vin Kutty
1521April 7, 2017 at 9:51 pm
1522Hi Joe – if the contents of the pill posed no issues, then the whole pill should not because the capsules shell is just easily-digested gelatin. If you are willing to try the GNC product a couple of more times with a week break in between, and you get the same digestive distress, then you may conclude with more certainty that there is a problem.
1523
1524Stomach acid does not bother K2 much.
1525
1526Reply
1527Sebastian
1528April 14, 2017 at 11:17 am
1529Thanks a lot for this in-depth article about K2. I suffer from longtime crohns in my ileum and I prefer to take vitamins in drops for that reason.
1530
1531I´m currently very low in Vitamin D and I know the co-factors are Vitamin K2, boron. However I was planing on ordering this http://www.orthomolecularproducts.com/liquid-vitamin-d3-with-k2/
1532
1533And it says it contains K2 in mk7, so my question is really, should I complete the vitamins with https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000FGWDTK/ which contains MK4 instead?
1534
1535Thanks
1536
1537Reply
1538Vin Kutty
1539April 17, 2017 at 3:48 am
1540Hi Sebastian – yes, you are better off combining the two liquid products.
1541
1542Reply
1543Roger H.
1544April 18, 2017 at 7:29 pm
1545Is there any word or update on any differences between MK-4 and MK-7 with respect to effect on INR? For the time being at least, I’m on warfarin; had begun taking a small dose (45mcg /day) of MK-7 with no apparent effect on INR. Given the arterial calcification implications of warfarin, I’d like to increase K2 up to whatever point it becomes counterproductive (i.e. begins lowering INR/ requiring higher dose of warfarin). A credentialed friend told me that she’d found research that said or suggested MK-4 doesn’t affect clotting at all; but thus far I haven’t found any supporting documentation. The only research I’ve seen thus far makes clear that at some level, K2-MK7 does lower INR; but nothing specific about MK-4.
1546What do you know about this?
1547
1548Reply
1549Vin Kutty
1550April 19, 2017 at 6:03 pm
1551Hi Roger – no update. What we know is that K1 is what’s mostly responsible for any interference with blood thinners. There is a relatively minor effect from MK-7 and less from MK-4. The non-profit Vitamin K2 Foundation believes that there is an ideal dosage of MK-7 that could allow both blood thinners and K2 to perform their functions with only a little interference. They hint at a dosage of 50 micrograms per day or less to do this. If you are on a blood thinner, you should talk to your doctor about how to handle this rather than go about it yourself. More here: http://vitamink2.org/k2-pedia/myths-facts/
1552
1553Reply
1554Kimmy
1555April 18, 2017 at 10:15 pm
1556Hi Vin,
1557
1558I understand the K2 (M4-M7) capsules are made of bovine. Is the bovine organic, halal or kosher? Also, if I purchase your product, K2 should I continue to take my regimen of Calcium Citrate 500 mg & Chelated Magnesium 650? Since you are an expert on the Omega’s, what do you think about Norwegian Gold Omega 3’s, 2080 mg daily?
1559
1560Reply
1561Vin Kutty
1562April 19, 2017 at 6:07 pm
1563Hi Kimmy – yes, the capsule shell is made with halal/kosher bovine gelatin. It is not organic. K2, Magnesium, and D3 help your calcium get absorbed properly and deposited into your bones, so yes, you will still need calcium and magnesium if your diet is low in these two minerals.
1564
1565Norwegian Gold Omega-3 good. The ‘2080 mg’ is for two pills. So each pill has 1040 mg of Omega-3. I formulated OmegaVia to be better than that item. OmegaVia has more Omega-3 at a lower cost. ?
1566
1567Reply
1568Kimmy
1569April 22, 2017 at 12:27 am
1570Hi Vin,
1571
1572Thanks for your response. I will try your brand after I finish what I have. I purchased your K2 M4-M7and took my first dose today. After taking it, I remembered about someone’s post about heart palpitation’s after taking M7. They were advised to switch to M4. My worry is that your K2 has M4 and M7. Has anyone experienced heart palpitations from your combination? If so, what is your advice? I don’t like wasting money!
1573
1574Reply
1575Vin Kutty
1576April 24, 2017 at 5:49 pm
1577Hi Kimmy – if you are not happy with the product, for whatever reason, we will gladly return your purchase price. So put that worry aside. As for heart palpitations, this is not a scientifically documented side effect of MK-7 although there are a couple of people who insist otherwise. If/when some people experience this side effect, it is very rare, temporary and goes away in a day or so. We sell tens of thousands of this product and have received complaints about palpitations from a couple of customers. Note that K2 is not stored in the body for long periods of time, so lingering side effects are unlikely.
1578
1579Reply
1580Kimmy
1581April 22, 2017 at 12:46 am
1582Hi Vin,
1583I meant to ask what’s the greatest difference between your Curcumin vs. Longvida Optimized Curcumin? I purchased the Longvida in hopes of getting past the side affects of Curcumin. Instead, I had the worst stomach discomfort ever! I took it with my most fattiest meal, sprinkled pepper, and ate bread after the discomfort started. By late night, thought I was going to have a heart attack, the heart burn was bad!
1584
1585Reply
1586Vin Kutty
1587April 24, 2017 at 5:55 pm
1588Hi Kimmy – both our (C3 Reduct) form and Longvida are second-generation of Curcumin extracts. Both are well-absorbed. Our C3 Reduct is a ‘metabolite’ of Curcumin. In other words, it is what your body would convert Curcumin to. This conversion can be difficult, so taking a pre-converted form bypasses some of the natural conversion bottlnecks. Longvida is a form that has been studied for absorption into the brain. For what it’s worth, until our InnovixLabs Curcumin was manufactured, I used to take Longvida. So I like both.
1589Curcumin typically does not have major adverse effects. These days, there are literally millions of people taking both forms without issues – talk to your doctor about this.
1590
1591Reply
1592Dana Price
1593April 29, 2017 at 9:33 am
1594Great article with tons of helpful & informative info! After reading the article I decided & was excited to purchase the supplement you recommend… until I read the list of ingredients & saw that it has caramel color added which is a known carcinogen. I don’t understand why anyone would add caramel color to a product, particularly a product designed to improve health.
1595
1596Reply
1597Vin Kutty
1598May 1, 2017 at 6:25 pm
1599Hi Dana – the controversy over caramel color is related to a different type of caramel color (there are several types) and even that controversy is somewhat unfounded. Given the reductive nature of mass media science reporting, many people now falsely believe all caramel colors are harmful. That is not true.
1600
1601Here is why: there are two studies on a specific type of caramel color called 4-methylimidazole. This compound is also found naturally in coffee, beer and molasses. Both studies were on mice, not humans. One of those studies found that it increases the likelihood of carcinogenicity at very high doses. The second study found no such evidence. We have no data on what this compound does to humans. Let’s be conservative and assume it is not good for humans either. This type of caramel color is added to colas. You’d have to drink 2900 cans of cola every day for 70 years to equal the dose of caramel color used in that mice study. Both the US FDA and the European Food Safety Authority, after conducting their own independent safety reviews, concluded that there is no safety risk.
1602
1603But all this is somewhat irrelevant because this form of caramel color is not used by the supplement industry for making capsule shells.
1604
1605Why do we used a dark capsule for this product? To protect it from light. K2 is light sensitive and the amber bottle alone is insufficient in protecting it from light degradation.
1606
1607Reply
1608David
1609May 2, 2017 at 9:35 am
1610I am confused. I wanted to use Vitamin K2, but I am on Coumadin/Warfarin for heart problems caused by a heart attack I had 16 years ago. I was told that Full Spectrum Vitamin K2 would not negatively affect my Warfarin therapy like Vitamin K1. I was about to order Full Spectrum Vitamin K2, but now I don’t know what to do. I really want the benefits of K2, but need to use Warfarin.
1611
1612Please help me out here. Thank you very much.
1613
1614Reply
1615Vin Kutty
1616May 2, 2017 at 7:02 pm
1617Hi David – K1 is what interferes with blood thinning medications. K2 is less interfering. But there is minor effect by K2 on blood thinning meds. It is worth noting that Warfarin works by keeping you in constant state of K1 and K2 deficiency. You may have thinner blood, but you may also increase arterial calcification with the medically-induced Vitamin K deficiency. There are risks and benefits to taking these medications. There are also newer-generation anti-coagulants that work without interfering with Vitamin K2 – drugs like Xarelto. This is not medical advice. I am neither qualified not authorized to give you medical advice, so this decision must be made with your doctor.
1618
1619Reply
1620Shelley Reynolds
1621May 11, 2017 at 11:54 pm
1622Thank you for this in depth article on K2. It is by far the best one explaining the difference between MK-4 and MK-7.
1623
1624I started taking D3 5000iu with K2 MK-7 90mcg and within a few days I got chest pains and my gallbladder started acting up as well. The gallbladder I can deal with but these chest pains are not good.
1625
1626My husband ordered your full spectrum K2 from Amazon last night. I am a little afraid to try it considering I am having these chest pains. Doing a google search I found some blogs where people were experiencing chest pains after taking MK-7, (NOT the MK-4).
1627
1628I really need the K2 because my hair analysis shows I have calcium free floating in my blood and soft tissues. I have DDD and gout, had cataracts at age 45. All of this I believe is do to too much calcium free floating and not getting into my bones where I need so desperately.
1629
1630Is this a common issue, chest pains? What is happening here? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!
1631
1632Reply
1633Vin Kutty
1634May 15, 2017 at 5:51 pm
1635Hi Shelley – chest pain or palpitations are not formally documented side effects for MK-4 or MK-7 forms of K2. However, there are a couple of reports of this from people taking large doses of MK-7. This issue is reported by less than 1% of consumers. If you are concerned, please work with your doctor. And my recommendation would be to start small – take one pill and see how you react. Let 3-4 days pass and then take another pill to see what happens. K2 is not stored in the body, so there is no risk of accumulation or toxicity. Both forms of K2 will eventually be metabolized completely out of your body.
1636
1637Getting your K2 from foods is always the best option, but it may require you to get out of your dietary comfort zone. More here: https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2016/12/09/the-ultimate-vitamin-k2-resource/
1638
1639Reply
1640Shelley Reynolds
1641May 15, 2017 at 9:47 pm
1642Hi Vin,
1643
1644Thank you so much for your reply.
1645
1646It is now a week later after having severe chest pains and I am having small less dominate and less frequent chest pains now. I am just super sensitive to EVERYTHING! Totally fustrating.
1647
1648I will definatly take your advice and try one of your full spectrum K2’s every 4th day after these chest pains completely go away. It gets better everyday, but I am a slow metabolizer.
1649
1650Lara Pizzorno author of “Your Bones” states that about 1/3 of the population isn’t able to process MK7. Just my luck, I am one of them. She says to use the MK4 form because those who are sensitive to MK 7 do better with MK4. So I am hopeful. This seems to be true on some blogs about K2 MK7. There are a few people who have side effects with MK7 but seem to do fine with the MK4. Even though there’s no hard evidence or clinical trials to prove this there seems to be some antidotal evidence to this.
1651
1652What I am trying to understand is why does it affect some of us this way? Mainly heart issues. If there’s any clinical trials about the side effects on the MK 7, I should be one of the test subjects if it doesn’t give me a heart attack!
1653
1654Thanks for the link to Masterjohn’s website but I have read it 3 times and truly appreciated the information!
1655
1656Reply
1657Vin Kutty
1658May 15, 2017 at 11:11 pm
1659Hi Shelley – have you talked to your doctor about your chest pain? If you haven’t, I’d do that right away. There is a reason why ER wards take you in right away if you tell them you have chest pain!
1660
1661I don’t have anything to rest the ‘Your Bones’ claim on. Frankly, I am peeved about people making unsubstantiated claims. I am sure there are some people who have issues processing MK-7, but I’d be shocked if 1/3 of all people are unable to process MK-7. The ‘one-third’ figure is baseless and bogus. MK-7 is not the most abundant form of K2 in ancestral human diet. That title goes to MK-4. But we do consume MK-7, MK-8, and MK-9 in small quantities in a lot of our foods. Some MK-7 is a small but natural part of human diet.
1662
1663Most people in eastern Japan consume relatively large quantities of MK-7 on a daily basis from Natto. You can get 1000 micrograms (10X what you find in most supplements) from just 100 grams of Natto. People outside of Tokyo eat an average of 80 grams of Natto per day. Easy to do that math. They consume a LOT more than what’s found in most supplements. http://www.nutritionjrnl.com/article/S0899-9007(00)00554-2/fulltext
1664
1665Clinical doses in well-designed studies are now approaching 200 micrograms. Why aren’t a third of people in eastern Japan struggling with this problem? Why aren’t a third of all patients in clinical studies not struggling with this problem?
1666
1667Once these notions are set in motion on the internet, it’s hard to rectify with reason and science.
1668
1669Having said all that, I still strongly believe that we should be more focused on MK-4. The marketing behind MK-7 by its manufacturers is self-serving as I’ve noted in the piece above.
1670
1671My advice for you is to get your K2 from foods or possibly MK-4-only supplements, with a strong preference for food over supplements.
1672
1673Reply
1674David
1675May 13, 2017 at 10:56 pm
1676Is 100% of the MK-7 in the trans form in Full Spectrum Vitamin K2?
1677
1678Reply
1679Vin Kutty
1680May 15, 2017 at 5:36 pm
1681Hi David – yes.
1682
1683Reply
1684Shelley Reynolds
1685May 19, 2017 at 6:35 pm
1686Hi Vin,
1687
1688I agree that the claim made suggesting that 30% of people can’t tolerate K2-MK7 is way too high. After reading the reviews on Amazon with different brands of just K2-MK7 the number of people who can’t tolerate is more like 1%. Most of them complaining of heart issues.
1689
1690On Wednesday May 17th, I went to our large university hospital ER. My chest pains were just not going away and my husband was getting concerned. I felt they weren’t as severe as the week before but still they were there. Within a ½ hour of walking in they had done an EKG, a chest x-ray and drew blood. Eight hours later I finally got to see a doctor.
1691
1692The bottom line, they had no CLUE as to what was going on with me even though I clearly stated I had started taking K2-MK7 on May 7th. Chest pains started 3 days later on the 10th. One medic was confused and thought I was taking potassium (K) and I had to educate him on vitamin K2! All of the tests they did on me came out negative.
1693
1694After being at the hospital for 9 hours I went home with nothing, no information, no suggestions of what to do but to see my primary. Well, the good news is I had made an appointment back in February to see my primary and that appointment is next week. When you are on Obamacare with Medicaid in my city it takes 4 months to get in to see your doctor this is the norm here.
1695
1696I eventually found something to stop the chest pains it was P-5-P with the InnovixLabs Advanced Mg. Now, I am not saying this will work for anyone else. However, anyone reading this in the future who is looking for what had worked for my symptoms/reaction to MK7 might find this beneficial. It is long and you have been warned.
1697
1698May 7th started K2-MK7 with D3 by Zhou
1699May 10th serve chest pains shooting across my chest from right to left. It felt electrical not like a muscle cramp.
1700May 11th or 12th received my order of InnovixLabs of Advanced Magnesium. I love this stuff, no stomach issues. I took one in the am and one in the pm to start since I am so sensitive to everything. Continuing to take it daily.
1701May 17 chest pains never went away even with taking the Mg. They were less severe by the 14th but still there. I also had shortness of breath, gout flare ups and pains in my back and arms, and leg cramps too. I felt like a Mack truck hit me, no energy and I felt like crap. Husband insisted I go to the ER and we now know that was a waste of time!
1702May 18th morning and I am still feeling awful, I did some more research on K2 and found that, “…about 25% of the population have, as part of their genetic inheritance, a single nucleotide polymorphism (SNP) that results in their being unable to convert vitamin B6 into its active form, which is called pyridoxal-5-phosphate (P-5-P). And P-5-P is what gets magnesium into our cells.” https://www.inspire.com/groups/national-osteoporosis-foundation/discussion/part-2-your-bones-by-lara-pizzorno-and-dr-jonathan-v-wright/?page=5#replies
1703
1704Holy cats, it was like a light bulb came on and was thinking I bet that is one of my problems, my body isn’t making the conversions to get the nutrients or supplements working! I have very high amounts of Ca in my soft tissues and it isn’t being delivered into my bad bones, hence the reason I wanted K2. My body/liver isn’t making the conversion to get the Ca into my bones. So I thought the same could be happening with the Mg. Also, isn’t Mg given to people who have had heart attacks and stokes? Trying to connect the dots here….
1705
1706I tried the P-5-P to see if it would deliver the Mg and lo and behold I think it did!
1707
1708P-5-P is the active form of B6. (FYI, it wasn’t easy to find without a lot of other stuff in it. I finally found it at a small local vitamin shop. I got Thorne Pyridoxal 5-Phosphate 33.8 mg 60 capsules.)
1709
1710May 18th at 1pm I took my new favorite Mg and the P-5-P and within an hour my chest pains had stopped! I was thinking wow this is all that I needed?
1711
1712May 18th 6pm I started having small chest pains but not as bad as before. I took the Mg and P-5-P and within an hour the chest pains were gone again.
1713
1714May 18th 11pm chest pains started again, so I took another round of the Mg and P-5-P. Again within an hour the chest pains stopped.
1715
1716My body was needing these supplements every 5 hours. But I managed to sleep the whole night without any more chest pains. I hadn’t sleep in over a week, yeah I was a walking zombie!
1717
1718May 19th morning no chest pains but I am planning on dosing the Mg and P-5-P at least 3 times if not 4 times today.
1719
1720I still feel that I need vitamin A. My only concern with it will be to see if my body can utilize it. Not being medical at all, I have no idea how vitamin A works in our bodies. Is there a supplement or something that is needed to assist vitamin A should I find it isn’t being absorbed? I am starting to think I need different couriers to deliver these essential vitamins.
1721
1722I had ordered Country Life Natural Vitamin A & D3 last week along with the Thorne MK4 and it was delivered today! I want to try the K2 MK4 without any MK7. Once I get my body healed from this crisis and add the vitamin A & D3, plus additional D3, Mg and P-5-P I will try the 1000 mg MK4 from Thorne because MK4 is the preferred form according to your article, I am convinced of that. I am still not feeling 100% right but in time I am hopeful I will be.
1723
1724It might be helpful to those reading this to know that I don’t take ANY prescription medication. I am 59 years old with Degenerative Disc Disease, osteopenia, arthritis and gout. I blame the high tissue Ca for all of these problems.
1725
1726If this helps just one person then it was worth the time to write it.
1727
1728Reply
1729Vin Kutty
1730May 22, 2017 at 6:57 pm
1731Hi Shelley – thanks for sharing that with us. I am glad you got medical help, but sorry that they were unable to help. Yes, many medical professionals think your talking about Potassium (chemical element K) when you mention Vitamin K2. While you may have figured out some of these things by yourself, I strongly recommend that you track down a licensed Integrative Medicine MD near you. Or even someone not so near. They can get to the root cause of the issue and possibly even identify if you have any genetic predisposition for poorly metabolizing B vitamins or anything else. Genetic testing, let alone, interpreting the long list of alpha-numeric gibberish that it generates is simply not something most general practitioners are capable of. MDs with Integrative Medicine training, however, do. They can help you. Otherwise, you’re playing Sherlock Holmes with your body and health.
1732
1733Reply
1734David Sander
1735June 13, 2017 at 9:20 pm
1736Thanks for the observation about 5-P-5 helping you with the chest pains, it may be a clue with what is going on with others taking MK7 and having similar side effects. Previously we had nothing to suggest to users of MK7 other than to stop taking it. The MK7 side effects are generally sleeplessness, anxiety, a thumping heart beat, and high blood pressure. I’m thinking that this happens in 5%-10% of the population given the frequency of its reporting. One web report I read of a new natto eater talked of his going days before he was able to sleep again after eating the 800 to 1100 mcg of MK7 in natto and of being unable to have a relaxed breath.
1737Physicians are generally not aware of vitamins and don’t know about vitamin K2 in either of its forms. They would likely tell you to stop it and leave it at that.
1738
1739You understand that high levels of vitamin D3 and the MK4 form of vitamin K2 are important to bones. Vitamin A as the retinol form is important too, taking 5000 to 10,000 IU will work with the higher levels of vitamin D and help in control of calcium. Refer to Chris Masterjohn writings on Vitain A for more on this. As found in a 2009 Tuffs University Trial, adding Retinol vitamin A increased formation of MPG in the body, this is a calcium scavenging protein that is potentiated by MK4. In addition, your arthritis and calcium control would also be improved by adding high dose boron which boosts release of calcitonin, another calcium controlling protein and reduces losses of calcium and magnesium. Look up Dr Jorge Fletchas 2013 video on Boron for an eye opener on boron. In addition, bones need protein for maintenance and its known that low protein diets increase bone loss.
1740
1741Reply
1742Vin Kutty
1743June 16, 2017 at 7:27 pm
1744Hi David – you’ve made some good points. I’d like to comment on your estimation that 5-10% of people who take MK-7 report heart palpitations or heart thumping or other side effects.
1745
1746Here are the reported (published) facts: MK-7 has been investigated in at least 36 clinical trials as of this writing, with a total number of 5539 participants. Dosage ranges from 45 mcg to 360 mcg. Our search focused on and revealed two incidences of palpitation among the 5539 participants. One of the adverse event was assessed as “unknown” for relationship to the supplement by the investigator, the other event was not assessed for causality. Emanus et al 2010 used 360 micrograms MK-7 daily for a year. While I generally talk people down from MK-7 doses over 100 mcg, this study reported 1 person with muscular pain, 1 person with general unwell feeling and 2 persons with itching. There were no reports of palpitations, even at 360 mcg.
1747
1748Now, there is always going to be a difference between published and anecdotal reports. But this is what the published data says. We also maintain proprietary data on ‘# of reported adverse events per bottle sold’ and this corroborates published data.
1749
1750Reply
1751Shelley
1752June 27, 2017 at 7:50 pm
1753Hello David & (Vin),
1754
1755Thank you both for your reply and information.
1756
1757I took Vin’s advice and have been busy looking for an alternative doctor to help me sort all of this out. I found a pharmacy doctor that is alternative! Woo Hoo!!! She did an extensive blood test panel looking for conversion problems, plus lipids and blood sugar.
1758
1759We found 3 mutations with just blood tests. I submitted the saliva 23andMe DNA test last week so I won’t have those results for 6-8 weeks.
1760
1761But here is what we found in the blood;
1762Apo-E mutation at E2/E4
17631.4% of American Women have this.
1764SNP’s are;
1765RS429358CT
1766RS7412CT
1767Risks for CHD, Alzheimer’s and Atherosclerosis
1768
1769Factor 2 or (Factor II)
1770Increased risk for developing clots.
1771VITAMIN K deficiency – HOLY CATS!!!
1772Too much Prothrombin
1773Chromosome 11.2
1774
1775MTHFR
17761298 A/C
1777Dr believes this is why I am not converting B6 and needed the P5P form. Also my B12 levels were sky high and I do NOT supplement with B12. She prescribed Lithium Orate at 5mg to balance B12, read Dr. Amy Yasko about this relationship. (Lithium blood test showed I was very low.)
1778
1779OTHER RED FLAGS
1780Apo-B mine was 158 mg/dL
1781This is the sticky bad cholesterol and it should be less than 80 mg/dL.
1782
1783LpPLA2, Activity mine was 261 nmol/min/mL
1784This should be less than 180 and it is a marker of atherosclerosis-related to inflammation.
1785
1786So here is what we concluded, the reaction to the K2 MK7 was a combination of the Factor 2 deficiency in Vitamin K and my body trying to deal with the supplement after being deficient for so long and the bad lipid panels. My blood is so thick and sticky it is amazing it flows at all. MK7 was trying to do a Roto-Rooter job on my arteries and my body just couldn’t handle the large dose of MK7 that I was taking, hence why she believes why I had chest pains.
1787
1788Anyone who has chest pains or any other heart issue after taking MK7 please find an alternative doctor. If your tests come out like mine (Factor 2 and bad Lipid panels) then that COULD be the missing link as to why SOME of us have a problem with MK7. I sure hope some research is done on this in the near future.
1789
1790Genetics is where a lot of medicine/health care is going. My new doctor is really into this. And just because you have genetic mutation doesn’t mean you have the condition! However, I my case I do have the conditions.
1791
1792For future reference my genetic heritage is;
1793Father-Scottish
1794Mother-Irish, Welsh and Native American (in that order)
1795
1796All of my genetic mutations come from my mom. My maternal grandfather had clots so bad that they had to put a sieves in his legs so he wouldn’t have a heart attack or stoke. If he were alive I bet he had the Factor 2 deficiency plus all the other things I inherited. Thanks Graps!
1797
1798The doctor approved of me taking Serrapeptase which I had done some research on. I started low with 40,000 SPU’s and have built up to 120,000 SPU’s 2 times a day. This will help clean out my arteries. The doctor put me on Cholesterol Pro with Bergamot another supplement to clean up the bad cholesterol.
1799
1800Blood tests are scheduled for the end of August. I will report back afterwords. It is my belief that if I can get some of this bad cholesterol out of my arteries I might be able to tolerate a low dose of K2 MK4 which I still feel I need because of the Factor 2 Vitamin K deficiency.
1801
1802I found a low dose MK4 and will try taking it in about a month to see how I respond. This will give the Serrapeptase and the Cholesterol Pro a chance to do their job before incorporating the K2 MK4.
1803
1804I want to be clear, just because these are the supplements that my doctor approved of, it MIGHT not be the best for YOU! Again, find an alternative doctor and get the blood work done, we are all unique.
1805
1806I hope this information might help the FEW who are puzzled as to why they have heart issues after taking MK7. The more information we can share the more we can help one another.
1807
1808Reply
1809Vin Kutty
1810June 28, 2017 at 10:26 pm
1811Hi Shelley – glad you were able to find a practitioner who’s able to dig a little deeper. It sounds like you’re closer to figuring out what’s going on.
1812
1813A few things to keep in mind for others reading this: Integrative Medicine MDs with some certification in this specialty are worth looking for and traveling long distances to see. The second thing to remember is that if you go down the rabbit hole of DNA testing, you need someone to hold your hands, so to speak, for data interpretation. Reacting appropriately to what your DNA testing reveals is an emotional issue, but one that merits some thought and reason. People who are caring for ageing parents with Alzheimers may not, understandably, respond well to suddenly knowing they are at increased risk of developing the same fate. Genetic predisposition does not equal inevitability. You have strong influence over how your genes are expressed, mostly through diet, exercise, microbiome care, sleep and stress management.
1814
1815Keep us posted, Shelley.
1816
1817Reply
1818Shelley
1819June 30, 2017 at 3:45 pm
1820Hi Vin,
1821
1822I wanted to thank you for all of your advice and for posting my latest update. Especially on finding an alternative dr. Without your advice I don’t know where I would be today. I am truly grateful for this blog and all the help you have given to a person you don’t even know!
1823
1824I have to tell you what the doctor said when she was going through my supplements. YOUR magnesium was a huge hit with her. She said, “this is a really good magnesium. I like the biglycinate and malate forms.” Then she said that I did a really great job of picking out the supplements that I needed. FYI, we are on our second bottle of your Mg and I told my girlfriend about it last night.
1825
1826I do agree that there are people who will not be able to handle the DNA information. And those people IMHO should not get tested. I know my mother-in-law is one of them. She would worry that she had every single condition that would show a mutation. She would NEVER understand that just because you have the genetic marker does NOT mean you have the CONDITION. She basically lives in constant fear and it’s pretty sad.
1827
1828My mother has Alzheimer’s. And my best guess is that she got this genetic marker from my grandfather, her dad. I look at this information as a tool for understanding what COULD happen NOT what IS. For me, I take a proactive stance on this and really appreciate the knowledge that genetics is giving me. And I do agree that environment and lifestyle has a lot to do with how these diseases play out.
1829
1830Again you’re absolutely right that I need help deciphering all this genetic information. The 23andMe test is going to be 75 pages long. Holy cats!!!
1831
1832My doctor said she will need help interpreting it and knows I can do some of the research to help her out. But also you may not be aware that there is another website called Genetic Genie and what that does, at least from my understanding, is it helps decipher or filter out your top mutations. So you’re not just searching for a needle in a haystack.
1833
1834Once I get the online document from 23andMe it gets uploaded to Genetic Genie. Then I print that out and get it to my dr. And the both of us will start going through it and figuring out what are the most prominent markers. She has done this quite a bit but doesn’t have the time to filter through all if it. Her plan is for me to come in every 4-6 weeks and tackle the most problematic issues.
1835
1836Also doctors are very aware of patients who are unable to handle this information and ones that will be able to help them decipher it. My doctor said she doesn’t recommend doing genetic testing on most of her patients. It’s too time-consuming for her and some of the patients can’t handle it emotionally. Just like you were mentioning.
1837
1838With the highest gratitude,
1839
1840Shelley
1841
1842Reply
1843Vin Kutty
1844July 1, 2017 at 7:14 pm
1845You’re welcome, Shelley. Glad I was able to help.
1846
1847Yes, DNA testing can be a pandora’s box for some. But if you’re able to process it properly, it can be a very useful tool/driver for lifestyle and diet modification. There are also several interpretation services that popped up after the FDA came down on 23andMe.
1848
1849Reply
1850Michele
1851June 11, 2017 at 2:36 pm
1852Hello,
1853good article. I’ve been under drugs in the past for vit D deficiency (value 10; 150 toxicity), low phosphorous and Calcium on the high border. I did every blood test for parathyroid gland as well. Every things normal.
1854So, I’ve been taking 25.000IU a week for a month (total 4). But the level of 25-OH Vitamine D3 in the bloodstream didn’t rise. After, I gave it up and changed diet and went to beach every day. Vit D rose up to 60 after summer; also phosphorous rose and Calcium got down. Perfect.
1855Years after that (few months ago) I found out to have bad cavities (caries) and I read that the cause can be Vit D low, bad Ph/Ca ratio, low VitA and too sugar in the diet. I did a blood test and my Vit D was, 2 months ago, < 7.
1856
1857Reading on the web I started to drink raw milk, increase the consume of cheese and butter ( I did use not much in the past diary products), and Fermented Cod Liver oil (I tried also not fermented, much cheaper).
1858
1859But the suggestions are also to take with K2 as Mk7; I see on Amazon that there is a brand that has 600 mcg; other contains just 100mcg; so, what do you suggest? Isn't 600 mcg a day too high? Or maybe Can I take it just temporarily, for a month or two?
1860
1861I'm trying to see if this diet will improve my cavities, just this. I don't want take cod liver oil forever neither supplents.
1862
1863What do you think about these?
1864https://www.amazon.it/gp/product/B01DAQ0C94/ref=ox_sc_act_image_1?smid=A2KKEDFIPRXWJS&psc=1
1865
1866Also I'm interested on Solgar k2-
1867
1868Kind Regards.
1869
1870Reply
1871Vin Kutty
1872June 12, 2017 at 12:40 am
1873HI Michele – for a lot of people, Vitamin D supplements simply do not work as well as daily sunshine.
1874
1875I would not take 600 mcg of K2 as MK-7. That is an artificially high dose. Humans have never consumed that much MK-7 in our history. MK-7 is best at 5-100 mcg per day. However, 600 mcg of MK-4 form should be fine.
1876
1877Reply
1878Michele
1879June 12, 2017 at 9:58 am
1880Thanks for reply. I was wondering if have sense taking one 600 mcg pill as MK7 for “week” (one a week); By the way, is there a brand I linked in my previous post, which is better than other?
1881
1882Regards.
1883
1884Reply
1885Vin Kutty
1886June 12, 2017 at 5:22 pm
1887Hi Michele – MK-7 has a half life of 2-3 days, so you will have a very high amount in your blood for the first few days and then not much. This is, again, an unnatural dose. If you (and your doctor) are OK with this dose, then, you could try it. My suggestion is to use a product with 100 mcg or may be 200 mcg at the most. I don’t have a preference amongst the brands you mentioned. Although, Solgar is a good one.
1888
1889Reply
1890David Sander
1891June 13, 2017 at 9:46 pm
1892Hi Michelle, it is no wonder that the 25,000 IU of vitamin D is not helping you. This is only 3500 IU per day. You may well need 5000 to 10,000 IU per day to see a major vitamin D blood level increase. generally the dose needs to be 1000 to 1500 IU per 25 pounds of body weight. Also, if this is the vitamin D2 form, just throw it away. The vitamin D3 form is three times more effective than the D2 and has less in the way of side effects than vitamin D3!
1893Skip the weekly dosing, this is something that doctors do and its not effective in creating the best health and improving vitamin D levels. We were evolved to have sunlight every day and bolus dosing has been shown to be ineffective in much research. Unfortunately the doctors medical references are out of date on this.
1894
1895Reply
1896Michele
1897June 12, 2017 at 2:45 pm
1898Hello again,
1899I see on Amazon.com that the k2 complex you suggested (which contains MK-4 500mcg and MK-7 100 mcg) cannot be shipped in my country from US. Is there a K2 (with both MK 4&7) complex alternative? thanks.
1900
1901Reply
1902Vin Kutty
1903June 12, 2017 at 5:24 pm
1904Hi Michele – you have two options: use a freight forwarder (companies that give you a US address to which you could ship products purchased on Amazon.com US and the freight forwarder ships to your country) or you could buy MK-4 and MK-7 separately from different brands.
1905
1906Reply
1907Michele
1908June 12, 2017 at 8:10 pm
1909Hello again,
1910the problem is also the cost. The brand you suggested in a previous post is quite cheap; but MK-4 and MK-7 separately isn’t so cheap; however, I see that the best compromise seems to be a brand of which someone complained; here it is:
1911https://www.amazon.it/Life-Extension-Super-Advanced-Complex/dp/B015PC2RNK
1912
1913Also, it seems not to have too much bulk agents, isn’t it? I really don’t know what to buy….
1914
1915Reply
1916Vin Kutty
1917June 12, 2017 at 10:37 pm
1918Hi Michele – I go into depth about the product you mention – please re-read the article above.
1919
1920Reply
1921David Sander
1922June 13, 2017 at 9:31 pm
1923Try looking at Iherb for shipments within the UK. What happens is some authority decides to put a restriction on MK4 or MK7 doses, by assuming them to be equivalent to regular vitamin K which has a much smaller dose. One option is to order the Thorne liquid MK4 which is expensive but come in a bottle that will last a while. This passes because its not a restricted pill size. I got good results from taking the Vitacost Ultra K with K2 Complex that had 1300 mcg of MK4 and 100 mcg of MK7. You may be able to find natto at a Korean or Japan food store and eat that in small amounts. A 3 ounce serving of natto has 800 to 1100 mcg of MK7!
1924
1925Reply
1926David Sander
1927June 13, 2017 at 9:38 pm
1928Also note on the product you mentioned, this has 600 mcg of MK7 vitmain K2. This is a really high dose, three to six times typical MK7 doses. If you have any sensitivity to MK7, this is going to be very annoying, you will have sleeplessness, anxiety, and a thumping heart with increased blood pressure for days. The MK4 form is what all mammals make and use best and MK4 has the best results in research trials and is better researched than the MK7 form. Try going with an MK4 only product first.
1929Because the body works with MK4 so well, it is often that you see doses of 1 mg to 5 mg commonly being taken. These are 1000 mcg to 5000 mcg in mcg units. Doses of Mk4 many times this have been safely tested so don’t be worried about the size.
1930
1931Reply
1932michele
1933June 14, 2017 at 12:41 pm
1934Hello,
1935I would try one of these two (tel me if they’re suitable, please):
1936https://www.amazon.it/Vitamina-certificata-menachinone-compresse-confezione/dp/B01N7NI8ZV/ref=sr_1_27?s=hpc&ie=UTF8&qid=1497443481&sr=1-27-spons&keywords=Vitamina+K2&psc=1
1937
1938either:
1939https://www.amazon.it/Vitamina-K2-da-100-%C2%B5g-menachinone-naturale/dp/B00UTDWVD2/ref=sr_1_6?s=hpc&ie=UTF8&qid=1497443481&sr=1-6&keywords=Vitamina+K2
1940
1941but it remains the problem with MK-4 which I can’t find standalone. All searches give me only MK-7; possible?
1942
1943I would start to take only MK-7 and then MK-4, if I will find it; accetable choice?
1944
1945Thanks again.
1946
1947Reply
1948Vin Kutty
1949June 14, 2017 at 4:14 pm
1950Hi Michele – go with the lower dose of MK-7 and try this for MK-4: https://www.iherb.com/pr/Thorne-Research-Vitamin-K2-1-fl-oz-30-ml/21592
1951
1952Reply
1953Emmerich
1954June 21, 2017 at 9:26 am
1955Hello!
1956
1957I need your help! Unfortunately, not many products can be purchased in my country.
1958What do you think about these product?
1959https://www.vita2you.de/index.php/super-k2.html
1960
1961ps: Sorry for my poor english
1962
1963Reply
1964Vin Kutty
1965June 21, 2017 at 5:15 pm
1966Hi Emmerich – this product looks OK. I would prefer a little less MK-7 and a little more MK-4.
1967
1968Reply
1969Susan
1970June 22, 2017 at 11:25 am
1971Curious what you think of this one:
1972https://rebelhealthtribe.com/megaquinone/
1973
1974Reply
1975Vin Kutty
1976June 22, 2017 at 9:44 pm
1977Hi Susan – unknown to consumers, there is a Vitamin K2 arms race going on behind the scenes in the supplement industry. A brand hoping to gain market share and unique marketing story cannot do so with 100 mcg of MK-7. People like bigger, faster, more. It is an easy marketing message. We’ve already witnessed this with Omega-3, Vitamin D3, and CoQ10. What was once a medically adequate dose is no longer adequate for commercial success, so companies add more and more MK-7 to their formulas. I’m sure 320 mcg will be highly effective at mobilizing the enzymes needed to put calcium to work. But when even 200 mcg of MK-7 per day is novel to the human species, doses in the 300-400 mcg range are, well, extra-terrestrial. I’m not doubting the efficacy of such high dosage, just the long-term safety and necessity.
1978
1979I don’t recommend MK-7 doses higher than 200 mcg per day. The product you refer to has 320 mcg. The chances of side effects are higher. I’d rather you keep MK-7 at around 100 mcg and take much larger MK-4 doses.
1980
1981Reply
1982Shameer
1983June 22, 2017 at 6:16 pm
1984Hi Vin,
1985
1986I’ve ordered the Innovix Full Spectrum Vitamin K2. Any recommendation on a Vitamin A & D supplement to complement the Vitamin K2 product?
1987
1988Thanks.
1989
1990Reply
1991Vin Kutty
1992June 22, 2017 at 9:49 pm
1993Hi Shameer – I like the 5000 IU Vitamin D3 and 25,000 IU Vitamin A, both from NOW Foods. You need to have your doctor test your Vitamin D level before you decide to supplement. Also, you don’t need that much Vitamin A daily, a few times a week is fine. Also, keep in mind that Vitamin D3 supplements are not the same as getting full body sun exposure. Ten to 15 minutes of mid-day sun exposure will not only increase your D3 levels, it will even lower LDL cholesterol levels. Get your D from the sun – it is better than pills.
1994
1995Reply
1996EastCoaster
1997July 3, 2017 at 2:00 pm
1998…In New England in the winter it is pretty much impossible to get enough vitamin D from the sun.
1999
2000Reply
2001EastCoaster
2002July 3, 2017 at 2:02 pm
2003Can the Innovix vitamin K be taken every other day? I’d prefer to get it from food, but I’m having trouble finding rich, readily available sources -other than gouda – that aren’t high in vitamin A.
2004
2005Reply
2006Vin Kutty
2007July 17, 2017 at 6:55 pm
2008Hi EastCoaster – yes, certainly, you can take it every other day or only on days when you think your diet is short on K2.
2009
2010Reply
2011Michele
2012July 6, 2017 at 11:37 am
2013Hello,
2014I’ve been wandering on internet looking for more information about Mk4 vs Mk7. For what I found out, it seems that there are no limitation in dosage of Mk4 (even 45000 mcg a day). However, it also seems that Mk-4 stays in the blood just few hours and for this reason there should be the necessity to take more than one dose a day. On the contrary, Mk-7 stays in the blood many hours (days), and for this reason it’s possible to take one shot a day and in a lower dosage. Howerver, I read that up 365 mcg a day is possible and healthy (there are studies on it).
2015Another thing I chanced upon is that Mk-4 is extracted in a form not so much absorbable (from tobacco plant, confirm or not, please).
2016
2017I also read that some cheeses, especially hard ones, contains K2. But Gouda and Brie also contains K2. Brie isn’t a hard cheese.
2018Can you tel me if the K2 of Brie is also/only in the skin? Many people throw it away, but I know it is basically a mould….I also guess that even Blue Cheese (not really an hard cheese) contains K2.
2019
2020Reply
2021Vin Kutty
2022July 17, 2017 at 7:11 pm
2023Hi Michele – the duration of K2 in the blood is a completely useless way to measure the efficacy or dosing frequency of Vitamin K2. ‘MK-4 stays in the blood for only a short time and therefore is not good’ is something you will see everywhere on the internet. This is nonsense. I address this issue in detail in the article above.
2024
2025The source of MK-4 does not matter, as long as it is pure Menatetrenone.
2026
2027Brie may have some K2, but hard cheeses are better sources.
2028
2029Reply
2030Azize Homer
2031July 11, 2017 at 4:48 am
2032Hi Vin,
2033I have been searching about vitamin K2 for a while and your article contains the most reliable information. I have been using K2 with D3 by Zhou Nutrient since last month to increase my D3 level. It contains 5000 IU Vit D3 and 90 mcg MK7 in trans form. I also just bought MK 4 based on your recommendation for myself and my kids (16 and 11 yr old). I presume one drop (1 mg) per day should be fine. When I am done with K2 +D3, I will buy Innovix MK4+MK 7 and supplement with Vit. D3.
2034Do you know anything about the brand Zhou? One of the customer review said that these were powder filled capsules not oil based. What is the difference? If not oil based, does it mean it is not useful? Also, Can I put the K2/ D3 drops in water to take it? Do you have any recommendation regarding K2 + D3 supplement?
2035Thank you SO much for this great blog and article.
2036Regards
2037
2038Reply
2039Vin Kutty
2040July 17, 2017 at 7:21 pm
2041Hi Azize – I am not familiar with Zhou. The delivery form, powder or oil is not critical, as long as the product provides what the label says it does. I would not add K2 to water, as it likely to float and/or stick to the sides of the container. I generally recommend that people separate their K2 and D3 supplements. Ideally, you should get your D3 from the sun during summer months. And not everyone needs 5000 IU of D3 every day.
2042
2043Reply
2044Jeff
2045July 15, 2017 at 7:12 pm
2046Is it correct that vitamin A and vitamin E should be taken two hours before or after taking vitamin K2 MK4 because they will neutralize menatetrenone?
2047
2048Reply
2049Vin Kutty
2050July 17, 2017 at 7:31 pm
2051Hi Jeff – there is no evidence of this at all.
2052
2053Reply
2054Michele
2055July 17, 2017 at 9:13 pm
2056Hello,
2057I assume that Menatetrenone is more or less a synonymous of menaquinone-4….
2058By the way, is there a particular time for taking Mk4 or Mk7 ‘in pills’ ? Empty stomach? During the meal?
2059Regards.
2060
2061Reply
2062Vin Kutty
2063July 18, 2017 at 3:35 pm
2064Hi Michele – yes, Menatetrenone is the chemical name for MK-4 form of K2. We think it is best if taken with a meal. Just before or just after is fine too.
2065
2066Reply
2067Niclas
2068July 18, 2017 at 8:41 am
2069Hi Vin
2070There are many research projects about Matrix-Gla protein (MGP) in kidney disease now.
2071“Haemodialysis patients suffer from accelerated vascular calcification. The vitamin K-dependent matrix Gla protein (MGP) is one of the most powerful inhibitors of vascular calcification. Haemodialysis patients have high levels of the inactive form of MGP (desphosphorylated-uncarboxylated-MGP, dp-uc-MGP) and may benefit from pharmacological doses of vitamin K2 (menaquinone) to improve the calcification inhibitory activity of MGP.” Source: Vitamin K2 supplementation in haemodialysis patients: a randomized dose-finding study. You will find more studies at
2072https://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/results?cond=vitamin+k&term=&cntry1=&state1=&Search=Search
2073
2074Some of these studies use K2 mk7 from Nattopharma. (sold by Bringwell.no, but produced in japan). 1. Are they “Real thing” with high trans mk7? 2. Is it pointless to also take K1 to get mk4? 3. Is it better to go directly to pure mk4 instead than K1?
2075
2076Regards
2077nicke
2078kidney patient, Sweden.
2079
2080Reply
2081Vin Kutty
2082July 18, 2017 at 3:44 pm
2083Hi Niclas – the Nattopharma K2 is sold under the MenaQ7 sub-brand. There are three types – from chickpea, from soy, synthetic. All are good. The chickpea and soy are mostly trans form while the synthetic is 100% trans. You can’t go wrong with any of them.
2084
2085No harm in taking some K1, but don’t take a lot, hoping your body will convert the excess to MK-4. It is far better to go directly to MK-4
2086
2087Reply
2088Tom
2089July 19, 2017 at 9:51 pm
2090Hello,
2091
2092Long time reader here, I’m posting this in regards to stating both mk-4 and mk-7 are both synthetic, while that’s true mk-7 can be synthetic or natural, mk-4 is not made by bacteria. There was a minimal study to compare the two, and it came to the conclusion that “Menaquinone-7 appears to offer a number of practical benefits over menaquinone-4 in terms of lower dosing and single daily dosing instead of multiple doses.” For RA patients would need 45mg of mk-4 a day compared to 100mcg for mk-7. And 600mcg of mk-4 isn’t proven adequate.
2093
2094Jarrow: derives from natto, but natto’s composition isn’t clear and it can be cis or trans form of mk-7, so you should look into MenaQ7.
2095
2096Also I’m not sure on the “marketing” strategy you presented as companies can offer both forms of k2, and mk-4 isn’t proprietary so it wouldn’t be a problem for companies.
2097
2098In the end I agree with most of what you say, but it still isn’t clear on mk-4 in my opinion and research I’ve done. But just to add another product, Mercola k2 from MenaQ7 seems to be good as well.
2099
2100Reply
2101Vin Kutty
2102July 20, 2017 at 6:23 pm
2103Hi Tom – you raise good questions. I’ll try my best to address them one by one, in detail, because you’re not the only one with these concerns.
2104
2105Synthetic vs Natural MK-4: as of now, there is no known technology for mass producing MK-4 with bacteria. Even though the raw material for producing bulk quantities of MK-4 is plant material, I don’t consider it ‘natural.’ I consider ALL supplemental forms of MK-4 synthetic. As with virtually all nutrients, it is better to get them from food rather than supplements. That’s my personal opinion.
2106
2107Synthetic vs Natural MK-7: here, there is a little more nuance. The technology exists to produce MK-7 from soy protein powder or chickpea (garbanzo) powder – these two forms are generally considered ‘natural.’ There is also a slightly more labor intensive process where you can make MK-7 from flower petals. This is for arbitrary reasons, considered ‘synthetic.’ The starting materials for both are from plants. Some would argue that they are all ‘natural’ based on the origin of the raw materials. Having looked at the process and patents for making MK-7, I personally feel that NONE of the MK-7 forms on the market are truly natural because of the complex steps required to make the product and also because the finished MK-7 is so far removed from nature. Having said that, the ‘synthetic’ forms made from flowers are purer and are ironically, in the nature-identical all-trans shape. The ‘natural’ stuff made from soy and chickpeas are mostly, not all, trans.
2108
2109Since the FDA’s position on natural vs synthetic is not very clear, there is a lot of wiggle room for marketers and brands to distinguish themselves from each other with ‘natural’ claims. I paint them all with the same brush. Any better-than-thou claim is putting the proverbial lipstick on the oinker.
2110
2111The best source for MK-4 is grass fed butter from cows that were grazing on rapidly-growing green grass. Back in the day, most butters qualified. Now, it’s anyone’s guess. I use Kerry Gold, but I have not sent it off to a lab for testing. I really ought to. Hard cheeses, and egg yolks from pastured chicken are good too. I’ll assume eating foie gras and organs like pancreas and salivary glands are off the table for most Americans. Chicken has a little bit and is probably where most Americans get their meager supply.
2112
2113That MK-7 offers ‘practical benefits in terms of lower and single daily dosing’, if I may be blunt, is utter, self-serving nonsense. When you are taking micrograms versus milligrams of something in a pill, there is no practical benefit to dosing or pill size at all. The ‘single daily’ dosing claim is equally nonsensical. This claim is based on the serum half-life of MK-7 being much longer. The longer half life has been twisted to mean that it is more effective. That MK-7 stays in your blood longer means absolutely nothing because MK-4 is quickly absorbed and cleared from the blood. MK-4 is tucked away in the brain (where there is no MK-7), pancreas, salivary glands etc. Just because MK-4 is not in the blood does not mean it is not doing its job. You could jokingly turn this around and say ‘MK-7 hangs around in the blood unused and doing nothing because no organ wants it.’ ? This has to do with marketing, not just science. MK-7 has a better ‘story’ and MK-4 does not have strong manufacturing patents for companies to guard and therefore market. Marketing MK-4 with branded names like MenaQ7 is not commercially viable. I like MenaQ7. We considered using it in our product during formulation, but at that time, their product was not all-trans – it was mostly trans. They now offer an all-trans version, which I like even more.
2114
2115The 45 mg dosage for MK-4 is for the Japanese drug, Glakay. It’s for osteoporosis. The clinical studies were done on 45 mg initially and so follow up studies used the same dose and the drug was based on published science. I am not aware of lower dosing for osteoporosis. Having said that, 45 mg of 45,000 mcg is a level that our human species has never naturally consumed. An ideal hunter-gatherer diet would have contained less than 1 mg or 1000 mcg of MK-4 daily.
2116
2117They key things for K2 supplements are still 1) the variety of MKs – mostly MK-4 with a little MK-7. Until we can reliably manufacture it, eat hard cheeses for MK-9 etc. and 2) cis or trans form. People (like you) are catching on and will hopefully pressure brands and manufacturers to be more transparent. This will flush out the mostly cis form coming out of China.
2118
2119And finally, is Cis versus Trans K2 another marketing ploy? I don’t think so. Look at the article above for the difference in molecular shapes of cis vs trans MK-7. Trans is what is found in foods and nature. If/when a well-designed study shows that this difference in molecular shape has no effect on the carboxylation of Gla-proteins, I will gladly change my tune. Until then, I hold my position.
2120
2121Reply
2122Tom
2123July 19, 2017 at 10:30 pm
2124Forgot to mention, this article brings up a good point that cis vs trans is a marketing ploy. https://www.reddit.com/r/Supplements/comments/5mdiko/to_be_honest_im_not_sure_if_transmk7_is_all_its/
2125
2126Reply
2127Vin Kutty
2128July 20, 2017 at 6:32 pm
2129Hi Tom – I responded to this question in my previous answer. I am glad people are getting informed and passionate about this. Plausible conjecture. Until proven otherwise, go with the nature-identical molecule.
2130
2131Reply
2132Lisa
2133September 11, 2017 at 2:10 pm
2134Hi Vin,
2135
2136My recent bone density showed osteoporosis in my spine and osteopenia in my hips. I want to know how much of your product I should be taking. Is it really necessary to take 45mg of MK-4 a day to build bone and prevent fractures? Will MK7 also build bone as well? Is it known how much MK7 should be taken?
2137Thank you
2138
2139Reply
2140Vin Kutty
2141September 11, 2017 at 6:48 pm
2142Hi Lisa – it is not necessary to take 45 mg of MK-4. Although MK-4 at 45 mg daily is used as a pharmaceutical treatment for osteoporosis, that is not an approved treatment in the US. Humans have traditionally consumed about 500 micrograms of MK-4 on a daily basis. Most of us barely consume even a fraction of that in our diets. Taking one capsule a day will give you what you need. MK-7 will also build bone strength. So, the product has two separate mechanisms for strengthening your bones.
2143
2144I take two per day because neither MK-4 nor MK-7 stay in your body for very long – they are metabolized and eliminated from the body within a day or two, so there is not much risk of taking too much. You can overdose with Vitamin D3 or A, but that’s almost impossible to do with K2. If you’re considering taking K2, you also need Magnesium, D3, and Vitamin A.
2145
2146Reply
2147William
2148September 29, 2017 at 9:03 pm
2149Hey Vin
2150
2151We purchased your combination vitamin K product and are very pleased . We also take vitamin a and D and I’ve always believed the fat soluble vitamins are in conjunction with one another and the studies are starting to pan that out .
2152But I notice many of the vitamin K experts talk about vitamin A and D but precious few mention vitamin E in conjunction with the other fat soluble vitamins
2153what is your take on Vitamin E both s a vitamin and a hormone in conjunction with A D and K ?
2154
2155Reply
2156Vin Kutty
2157October 3, 2017 at 12:49 am
2158Hi William – I, too, wondered why more discussions of A, D, and K2 don’t include E. I don’t think it is because E is not required, but we know a few processes that require A, D, and K2, and we simply don’t have many obvious processes that require all 4 or a combination that requires E. That does NOT mean that E is not critical or that you can afford to take A, D, and K2 without E.
2159
2160Vitamin E deficiency is a serious problem. I can recall three studies on the topic and the most comforting one says 70% of us are deficient while the most alarming says 90% of us are. Vitamin E should also not be looked at as a single entity or nutrient. It is, like K2, a complex. There are 4 different types of tocopherols and 4 tocotrieneols. Sadly, most of the science on the ingredient (and virtually all the ones that have garnered negative headlines) have been with a poorly-absorbed, synthetic form of one of the tocopherols. Where would the state of science be if all studies were done with ALL EIGHT forms of E?
2161
2162Vegetables and egg yolks are good sources, but people are scared of yolks (sadly) and we have a spotty record of eating vegetables. Supplementation kept some of us out of trouble, but then around 2005, there were some bad headlines based on poor science and that was the time of peak Vitamin E supplement consumption. People have backed away from taking Vit E pills. May be avoiding the synthetic form of 1 of the 8 E form is not such a bad thing, but the message people received was that Vit E was bad for them. That is a tragedy…
2163
2164I take Jarrow Famil-E. It has all 8 types of E.
2165
2166Reply
2167deborah
2168October 4, 2017 at 5:40 pm
2169What if I am only interested in treating osteoporosis – K2 is what I really want. Do I still need MK7 and MK4?
2170
2171Reply
2172Vin Kutty
2173October 4, 2017 at 6:42 pm
2174Hi Deborah – yes, you need both MK-7 and MK-4.
2175
2176Reply
2177Jessica
2178October 25, 2017 at 2:36 am
2179Thank you for this article! I’m 24 weeks pregnant and want to decline vitamin K shot. My diet is likely not super high in K though. I eat lots of mixed greens, tomato, avocado, peas, seeds, nuts, egg a couple times a week, tuna once a week or less, and the baby seems to hate meats and chicken so I eat almost none of that. I am drinking nettle leaf. Any thoughts on which supplement I should take between yours and the Thorne one? Yours has both forms but maybe I’m getting enough MK7? I’d like to have the liquid so I can give to my 4 year old too but will that give me what I need to get vitamin K to baby through placenta and breastmilk? Or should I buy yours? My concern is more the late onset VKDB.
2180
2181Reply
2182Vin Kutty
2183October 25, 2017 at 8:05 pm
2184Hi Jessica – as I outline in the article, MK-4 is far more important than MK-7 during pregnancy because MK-7 does not cross into the fetus. MK-7 also does not appear to cross into the brain. MK-4 is a smaller molecule and will do both.
2185
2186The InnovixLabs product has enough MK-4, but if you want or feel comfortable with more MK-4, then the Thorne item is a good addition. As far as getting enough MK-7 from food, unless you are eating Natto at least twice a week, you are getting much of any MK-7 in your diet. It is much easier to get MK-4 from the diet. MK-4 will be transferred to the baby via the placenta and breast milk.
2187
2188The decision to decline the Vitamin K shot for your baby at birth is something you need to discuss with your OB. But keep in mind that the shot is K1, not K2. K1 shot is given to prevent bleeding and hemorrhagic disease from K1 deficiency. So many mothers are K1 deficient from not eating enough green vegetables that their babies are born K1 deficient. This can be a problem. It may not be an issue for you due to the high green veggie consumption, but still, talk to your doctor. My issue with the shot is that it is a shot! K1 can be easily given in reasonable doses orally. The medical system is more about preventing loss and liability. Comfort and well-being are secondary…if not, they’d give oral K1. Or better yet, OB’s would tell their patients to eat lots of veggies during pregnancy.
2189
2190Your eating K2 is for your baby’s bone, brain, and dental development. Your baby’s teeth, baby and adult teeth, are already partially developed and K2 is needed for that.
2191
2192Reply
2193Jessica Hoffman Brylo
2194November 4, 2017 at 2:48 pm
2195Thank you for this. Is there a vitamin K1 you recommend for me to take along with the K2 and that I could give baby?
2196
2197Reply
2198Vin Kutty
2199November 7, 2017 at 9:06 pm
2200Hi Jessica – if you eat green leafy vegetables, you are unlikely to require K1 supplementation because the body recycles and reuses K1. As long as you eat green leafy vegetables, you should be OK.
2201
2202Reply
2203Candis
2204October 25, 2017 at 2:43 am
2205Hi, Vin,
2206
2207For my electrical conduction error of the heart, if I take K2 with MK-7 and MK-4 before I swallow Vitamin E, then I will not experience severe heart palpitations. The Super K from Life Extension works well for this purpose. However, now I am treating osteoporosis and will change to Thorne as mentioned above, but will it offer the same protection from the heart palpitations? Safely dosing Vitamin E has always been a challenge until this puzzle piece was revealed to me.
2208
2209Reply
2210Vin Kutty
2211October 25, 2017 at 8:10 pm
2212Hi Candis – since you seem to have figured out what works for you, I am reluctant to ask you to change anything. I don’t know if the Thorne product will be OK with the palpitations. Please discuss that with your doctor. Note that taking Vitamin K1, K2 and E without the other two fat-soluble vitamins (D3 and A) may cause some issues themselves. Again, talk to your doctor about how and how much.
2213
2214For what it’s worth, you don’t need to extreme amount of K2 found in the Thorne product to give you protection from osteoporosis. What you are taking now is plenty.
2215
2216Reply
2217Gaius Gracchus
2218November 3, 2017 at 9:18 am
2219This K2 product looks great by InnovixLabs. But it is a shame it is only available on Amazon. I can send links to the Amazon page that tells sellers the warehouse conditions that their products will suffer while in storage there – high and low temps – for a long period of time. But since I know someone who works there, I know the temps go even higher than that sometimes.
2220I am amazed that anyone buys supplements from Amazon’s warehouses. When you read reviews on Amazon and people gripe about what we know are well-made supplements – capsules stuck together, rancidity and other issues – it is NO SURPRISE whatsoever, given the harsh conditions that they experience while stored there.
2221Wish we could order this product directly instead of from Amazon.
2222
2223Reply
2224Vin Kutty
2225November 7, 2017 at 9:02 pm
2226Hi Gaius – you can buy the product directly from https://innovixlabs.com/products/full-spectrum-vitamin-k2/
2227
2228Reply
2229Becky
2230November 6, 2017 at 10:32 pm
2231Hi there. I’m looking to get our whole family on a K2 supplement. My husband, myself (30 weeks pregnant), and our 7 yr old. We have started a D3 but I realize that we need a K2 with it. Is the InnovixLabs Vitamin K2 ok for everyone in our family or should I get a different formula for my 7 yr old?
2232Becky
2233
2234Reply
2235Vin Kutty
2236November 7, 2017 at 9:10 pm
2237Hi Becky – yes, the formula works for everyone. I have twin 7 year old who take 2 or 3 of these capsules every week. I usually give them one capsule every other day or every third day. Since you’re pregnant, run it by your OB/GYN. It is critical to get enough D3 during pregnancy, especially now that it is almost winter time. But, again, check with your OB about your blood levels about dosage.
2238
2239Reply
2240Susan
2241November 10, 2017 at 10:23 pm
2242Vin,
2243What do you think of Douglas labs liquid D and K? It seems to have both mk4 and mk7 in a liquid form. FLOZ NutriK2 Liquid Vitamins K That you gave your kids is no longer available anywhere. I was lllokung for a substitute for it, how about the Douglas labs one? It doesn’t have an A vitamin it it though. If I get the Seeking health liquid A and the Douglas labs D and K liquid (if you think it’s ok) then how much of each, the liquid D and K and the liquid A should I give my 3 year old grandson? He very big for his age more like the size of a 4 year old in height and weight. How often do I give him theses vitamins. He’s a picky eater and doesn’t eat a much.
2244
2245Reply
2246Vin Kutty
2247November 12, 2017 at 8:40 pm
2248Hi Susan – yes, the Douglas Labs product has both MK-4 and MK-7 in reasonable dosages. My issue with that formula is very minor – that it has K1, which people don’t usually need to supplement with (assuming they eat some veggies) and that it contains just enough D3 to make people feel like they are taking enough of it. But it only contains 1000 IU of D3 per dose. That is unlikely to bring anyone out of deficiency. Most of us sun-avoiding desk jockeys (adults) need about 4000 IU (on average) to climb out of deficiency. If you decide to take this product, make sure you think about a separate D3 supplement in case you are deficient. D3 is very individual – starting level, IUs needed daily to get you to optimal, how long it takes you to get there, and at what level you start feeling the side effects of too much. Talk to your doctor and do your homework on D3. If this is for your grand kid, please discuss with his pediatrician about dosage levels.
2249
2250Yes, FLOZ K2 seems like it’s gone from the market. Too bad. My kids take the InnovixLabs K2 product – they just chew the softgels because the taste is acceptable to them, but I would not suggest that for a 3 year old.
2251
2252Reply
2253Susan
2254November 16, 2017 at 8:12 pm
2255Hi Vin,
2256I’m not asking for myself as I do take your vitamin K and 5,000 vit D and just ordered Now’s brand vitamin A for myself. But I was asking for my 3 yr old grandson. His pediatrician would not recommend giving him anything beyond a multi vitamin as almost all pediatricians would. In my experience, Allopathic doctors don’t know much about vitamin and mineral supplements or any over the counter supplements. They are only taught about prescription drugs.
2257You might find the exception but I’ve never encounter one. Is it safe to give my 3 yr old grandson
2258Liquid Nutri K from floz inc? How many drops would you recommend I give him? I found some available on line. He does not eat a well rounded diet to get theses vitamins through food as would be the first choice. Will the vitamin D in this formula with the amount of drops you recommend be enough for him or should a add more vitamin D supplement?
2259
2260Reply
2261Vin Kutty
2262November 17, 2017 at 12:12 am
2263Hi Susan – Vitamin K2 is ESSENTIAL to all humans. So it’s not a matter of safety, but the right dosage and the right product. The InnovixLabs K2 product was not formulated with 3 year olds in mind, so the dosage may be more than they need. My suggestion is to try a liquid MK-4 form of the product, perhaps from Thorne, so that you can control exactly how much he gets. One drop of that (every other day or every third day) should add 1000 mcg of MK-4 and ought to be plenty. You may wish to talk to the customer service team at Thorne too.
2264
2265Most kids will need some Vitamin D by winter/spring – how much is the issue. You can overdo D3 easily if you are careful – a friend of mine did with her kid. To find out how easy it is to overdo Vitamin D3, I began taking 20,000 IU daily from a base of about 45 to 50 ng/ml. After 3 weeks of that, I completely stopped sleeping. Oh that was hell. That lasted a whole week before I could fall asleep. D3 is a hormone. You can easily overdose. D3 is very popular these days and lots of people are taking 5000 IU daily without K2 and A. They might be in for some trouble. Heck, even with K2 and A, I pushed myself over the edge with 20,000 IU for just 3 weeks. Everyone reacts to D3 slightly differently. Having said that, when my kids were 3, I gave them 1000 IU drops two or three times a week during the winter and none in the summer when they are out in the pool getting lots of sun. Turns out that you cannot overdose on D from excess sun.
2266
2267Reply
2268Carole
2269November 24, 2017 at 12:25 pm
2270K2
2271I’m from England and I have read the info re Innox/mk7/mk4. I am 63 and have osteoporosis. I am trying to find out the dose to help this rather than a preventative dose? I am also having trouble finding info on trans K2?
2272Any advice/help would be appreciated.
2273Many thanks
2274Carole
2275
2276Reply
2277Vin Kutty
2278November 27, 2017 at 8:08 pm
2279Hi Carole – osteoporosis is a medical condition and we are neither authorized nor qualified to treat medical conditions. However, if you are interested in bone strength, a regular dose of one (or even two) capsule of the Innovix K2 can help.
2280
2281Trans versus Cis K2 is not a topic frequently addressed by the health media. K2 is found in the trans form in nature and in foods. Cis form is not nature-identical and we are unclear on its effect on our health. The K2 in the Innovix product are in the nature-identical trans form.
2282
2283Reply
2284Myrto
2285November 28, 2017 at 9:51 pm
2286Hello Vin! I am from Greece living temporary in Germany. No sun around here! so, I have just got to know that it would be a good idea to start getting some vitamin D3 in combination with K2. I read some articles and did some online research but as you had already mentioned above, the majority of supplements offer only the MK-7. Could you tell me your opinion about this german product? I was wondering if it contains a lot of MK-20mg no mcg per drop?!
2287https://drjacobs-shop.de/vitalstoffe/135/dr.-jacob-s-vitamin-k2-oel-20-ml
2288They also have this product but I am not sure about this one which combine both of D3 and K2.
2289https://drjacobs-shop.de/vitalstoffe/119/dr.-jacob-s-vitamin-d3k2-oel-20-ml?number=ND3K2
2290It is mention alltrans but WHO actually knows? Do you think I should take one of this?
2291Or D3 vitmanin with just one drop of Throne supplement. Unfortunately german amazon do not provide innovixlab K2. I would appreciate it much if you could share your thoughts. Thank you very much for your time and your useful article.
2292Myrto Koulouridi
2293
2294Reply
2295Vin Kutty
2296December 4, 2017 at 3:46 am
2297Hi Myrto – the product contains 120 micrograms of MK-7 form of K2 per serving. There is nothing wrong with that. If you can find some MK-4 in addition to that, you will be in better shape. Talk to your doctor about your D3 levels before you start supplementing with it. In northern Europe, people usually need about 4000 IU per day during the winter months, but that depends on your blood level.
2298
2299Reply
2300Jim
2301November 29, 2017 at 3:29 pm
2302Vin,
2303I read an article in November, 2017, issue of Life Extension magazine, citing a trial performed with a group of post-menopausal women, where they took a daily dosage of 180 mcg of MK-7 for a period of three years. The results indicated the possibility of reversal of plaque calcification through large doses of K2. Do you have any insight on these and other such tests?
2304
2305Reply
2306Vin Kutty
2307December 4, 2017 at 4:27 am
2308Hi Jim – studies on REVERSAL of plaque and calcified arteries are still emerging. I read the same article too. The science is promising, but we still don’t know if several hundred micrograms are required for reversal. Or if lower levels can achieve the same. Some of these reversal studies are conducted by MK-7 manufacturers, so there is vested interest in using high doses of MK-7. There is no reason to think that MK-4 will not work. But intellectual property positions are such that MK-4 research in this area is dwindling. If I had near-complete blockage, I would not rely solely on K2 but rather let a cardiologist perform surgical intervention. And then use K2 to subsequently guide proper calcium deposition. Plaque and blockage do not happen overnight, so it’s unreasonable to expect K2 to fix it overnight. Nutrients dont work that way. Only surgery can. It’s worth noting that the duration of the study was 3 years.
2309
2310Reply
2311Adrienne
2312December 10, 2017 at 4:40 pm
2313Hello there.
2314
2315Can I ask why you give your kids the Thorne if you have made this other supplements? Is it just b/c they don’t take capsules easily?
2316
2317Thanks for this interesting post!
2318
2319Reply
2320Vin Kutty
2321December 11, 2017 at 4:53 am
2322Hi Adrienne – I used to give my kids the Thorne liquid K2 drops when they were too young to chomp on or swallow pills. They no longer take the Thorne product. Instead, they chew on the InnovixLabs softgel. They prefer to chew on it rather than swallow the pill.
2323
2324Reply
2325Ann
2326December 14, 2017 at 6:57 am
2327Can u take these if u take the drug tenormin 50 mg will they affect the medicine ? my vitamin d3 was 10 and I’ve read u should take vitamin k with vitamin d3
2328
2329Reply
2330Vin Kutty
2331December 19, 2017 at 12:44 am
2332Hi Ann – if you are on blood thinners, K2 may cause some interference with the functioning of those drugs. We are not aware of any interaction with the medications you mention. Please discuss with your pharmacist and/or doctor before proceeding.
2333
2334If your blood Vitamin D level is 10, I assume your doctor has you taking D3 immediately. That REALLY low. I would not wait for the K2 pills to show up in the mail before taking the D3. Start taking the D3 right away. A few days or weeks without K2 is not a big deal. It is when you take high dose D3 for a long time while being low on K2 and A that you could start seeing issues.
2335
2336Better to get D3 from the sun directly, but at this time of the year, that’s pointless. Next summer, be sure to get 10-15 minutes of daily mid day sun exposure without sunscreen.
2337
2338Reply
2339Susan
2340December 29, 2017 at 11:02 pm
2341Vin,
2342I found Liquid Nutri K from floz inc on line. They don’t make it anymore and are getting rid of the last supplies of it. So I have a chance to purchase some for my grandchild. He is 3 years old but the size of a 4 or 5 year old. He is 42 lbs and 42 inches tall. How much should I give him and how often?
2343
2344Reply
2345Vin Kutty
2346December 31, 2017 at 6:59 pm
2347Hi Susan – if you’re giving him MK-7, then, start with 10 or 20 micrograms every couple of days. If he’s OK with that, I think 30 micrograms daily or every other day should be fine. Given the age of the child, please run this idea past the pediatrician.
2348
2349Reply
2350Susan
2351December 29, 2017 at 11:11 pm
2352Vin,
2353You said you gave the nutri K from floz inc to your kids when they were little. I just read that it hasf Vitamin K2 (as MenaQ7) so does that mean it has no Mk-4?
2354Is it better to give my grandson an mk4 liquid and a vitamin A liquid separately? How about the vitamin D in the nutri k from floz inc?
2355
2356Reply
2357Vin Kutty
2358December 31, 2017 at 7:02 pm
2359Hi Susan – MenaQ7 is MK-7. It does not have MK-4. Consider using the liquid Thorne item, as it has MK-4. One drop of the Thorne product every couple of days is plenty. it will last you until he’s much older. Try to get some Vitamin A from food sources. Check with his pediatrician before you start on A and D3. Kids usually need both, but you can theoretically get too much of both. So you need to know what you are doing. There will be some research needed.
2360
2361Reply
2362Granny6
2363December 30, 2017 at 7:36 pm
2364Hi Vin,
2365This is a copy and paste from Examine.com……….
2366The minimum effective dose for short chain menaquinones (MK-4) is 1,500mcg. Doses of up to 45mg (45,000mcg) have been safely used in a superloading dosing protocol.
2367
2368The minimum effective dose for longer chain menaquinones (MK-7, MK-8, and MK-9) is between 90-360mcg. Further research is needed to determine the maximum effective dose for MK
2369
2370I’m taking your full spectrum vitamin K2. The bottle says 1 capsule is 500mcg’s MK 4 and 100 mcg’s MK 7. Should I be taking 1 capsule 3 times a day with meals or 3 capsules all together with one meal? I’ve only been taking 1 capsule per day with an avocado and egg breakfast. I want to get the most benefit I can from the vitamin K.
2371
2372Reply
2373Vin Kutty
2374December 31, 2017 at 8:54 pm
2375Hi Granny6 – I really like Examine.com and the general quality of their work, but no one can claim to have a minimum effective dose for MK-4…especially at 1500 mcg.
2376
2377Why? Because it is virtually impossible to arrive at a figure without doing unethical testing on human subjects.
2378
2379I suspect that Examine.com are using the term ‘minimum effective dose‘ to mean the lowest dose used in a recent clinical study. Technically, these two terms have VERY different meanings. I figured out what they meant by looking at the numbers for MK-7, which they claim is between 90 and 360 mcg, which happens to be the range of dosage used in recent studies. A lot of MK-7 studies are funded by companies that sell MK-7. And there is a vested commercial interest in jacking up dosage levels. At no time in the human evolutionary process, until the Japanese stumbled upon fermented soybeans (Natto), would humans have consumed 360 mcg of MK-7. There has been little or no reported side effects for 360 mcg of MK-7, so the dosage arms race continued unchecked. As for acceptable dosages, I’ll accept 1500 mcg for MK-4 long before I’ll accept 360 mcg for MK-7.
2380
2381As for 45,000 mcg of MK-4, that’s based on few Japanese studies behind the MK-4-based Osteoporosis drug in Japan. It too is not a reasonable or ancestrally accurate dose for humans. But the dosage appears to be safe. And not surprisingly, that much MK-4 will make your bones stronger.
2382
2383Having said all that, I think 1500 mcg probably is on the high end of what ancestral humans probably consumed on a daily basis thru their diet. 1000 mcg is a fair amount. That’s why we kept the formula at 1000 mcg per pill. Given that most of us don’t even consume 100 mcg daily (at best), taking 500 to 1000 mcg is a solid supplement. As for your dosage, one pill per day is plenty. If you want to be very aggressive about strengthening your bones and/or reducing calcium deposits in soft tissues and arteries, you could double or triple your dose temporarily for a couple of months…but one pill is a solid maintenance dose for just about everyone.
2384
2385Reply
2386Alex Newell N.D.
2387January 5, 2018 at 5:54 pm
2388Found your blog from a link in a comment on Chris Masterjohn’ K2 blog post. I liked your comments on K2 and brain and on the placenta.
2389
2390My particular interest right now is how we can optimise our Dental health with Fat soluble vitamins. Seems like lots of people on “Clean” diets are taking K2 and D and still getting lots of cavities. And I’m wondering what’s missing? Have you written on the connection between K2 and Dental health?
2391Thanks
2392
2393Alex
2394
2395Reply
2396Vin Kutty
2397January 6, 2018 at 12:33 am
2398Hi Alex – good question. I have not written about K2 and dental health. K2 has a strong impact anywhere calcium is deposited and teeth are not that different from bones. Integrative or holistic dental care providers can probably share a lot of unpublished clinical observations that could serve as hypotheses for studies.
2399
2400As for people taking K2 + D and still getting cavities, well, I don’t have a clear answer why that is. But I have a few solid guesses: starchy diets, inadequate flossing/brushing, dysbiotic oral cavity, etc. ‘Clean’ diets can induce plaque formation too, if it’s excessively high in starchy root vegetables. Healthy teeth have a ‘fluid cleansing system’ that’s operated by the hypothalamus. When high blood glucose (easily done with ‘clean’ starches too!) increases the reactive oxygen species (oxidative burden) in the hypothalamus, this interrupts or reverses the mechanism by which teeth are naturally cleaned by this fluid cleansing system. K2 has mild impact on this process, but not enough to stop it when glucose is high. So, clean diets are only ‘clean’ if it does not chronically raise blood sugar.
2401
2402Reply
2403Jim
2404January 5, 2018 at 10:14 pm
2405Hello Vin,
2406I was wondering if you had any thoughts on Life Extension Super K now that they have changed the formula?
2407Supplement Facts
2408Serving Size 1 softgel
2409Amount Per Serving
2410Vitamin C (as Ascorbyl palmitate) 10 mg
2411Vitamin K activity 2600 mcg
2412From:
2413Vitamin K1 (as phytonadione) 1500 mcg
2414Vitamin K2 (as menaquinone-4) 1000 mcg
2415Vitamin K2 (as all-trans menaquinone-7) 100 mcg
2416Other ingredients: extra virgin olive oil, gelatin, glycerin, beeswax, purified water, maltodextrin, carob color.
2417Contains soybeans.
2418Non-GMO
2419
2420Thanks,
2421Jim
2422
2423Reply
2424Vin Kutty
2425January 6, 2018 at 12:48 am
2426Hi Jim – thanks for bringing that to our attention. It’s great that they now offer an all-trans formula. It was truly disappointing to learn that only about 25% of the MK-7 was in the trans form, but that was a few years ago. I feel comfortable recommending this product, but with a mild reservation. I still don’t think there is a strong argument for taking K1 as a supplement, given that our bodies recycle K1 and even the french fry oil at McDonalds could have some K1. As rampant as K2 deficiency is, K1 deficiency is very rare.
2427
2428PS: I have inserted an addendum in the article above to note this change in Life Extension’s formula, but am going to leave the original discussion intact for the sake of science and narrative.
2429
2430Reply
2431Jim Poletti
2432January 9, 2018 at 7:47 pm
2433Vin,
2434
2435Before I seen this blog about K2 written by you, I bought Pure Therapeutics Vegan D3 + K2 liquid on Amazon. They claim their K2 is trans. They also have D3. Most of the K2 internet stuff I’ve read states that K2 must be taken with D3 for it to work, but you are not pushing D3 that much in your blog; how come ? . Also, do you know anything about Pure Therapetics ?
2436thanks, Jim
2437
2438Reply
2439Vin Kutty
2440January 9, 2018 at 11:38 pm
2441Hi Jim – K2, D3 and Vitamin A work together. These, along with Vitamin E complex, are called fat-soluble vitamins. It is not a good idea to take a lot of D3 by itself (like tons of people are!) without eating foods or supplements with A and K2. But you don’t need to take all three of these AT THE SAME TIME. It’s perfectly fine to supplement these at separate times. I take D3 and K2 regularly. But I don’t take A and E as regularly, depending on my diet, or if I don’t eat foods rich in A and E, I supplement with it once or twice a week. Unlike K2, D3, A, and E are stored in the body. K2 is not stored for weeks or months like D3 and A. So it is far more likely that you’ll run out of K2 before you do A or D.
2442
2443The reason I didn’t push D3 in this blog is that I was done writing about it on another blog. ? Here it is in a nutshell: most people are deficient in D3. It is MUCH better to get D from the sun than supplements. Most people need about 4000 IU per day during winter time. It is not a good idea to continuously take 5000 IU pills every day without testing your blood for D levels. Work with a doctor and decide how much.
2444
2445A lot of K2 products now have D3. This is mostly because the #1 selling K2 supplement on Amazon has D3. It’s the one-eyed leading the blind. Amazon brands all copy each other. It is not because it’s what’s right for your health. You may need far more or far less D3 than what is found in a one of those products.
2446
2447That K2 must be taken at the same time and together with D3 is self-serving marketing BS.
2448
2449Reply
2450Jim
2451January 10, 2018 at 3:31 pm
2452Vin, this blog is good. The main reason I am taking K2 is that last June I got a 100 score on the CT calcium scan of my heart. All the blockage is in my LAD artery. So this means I have a good chance of a heart attack in the next 5 years. I always was active and took a multi vit, and an extra calcium supplement for years, but no K2 or magnesium. Do you think that me taking good trans K2 and D3, A and laid off the calcium supp that this blockage can be reversed? I would be a good guinea pig for a K2 study.
2453I am also laying off sugars and processed foods, dr put me on statins but my knees started hurting so I quit.
2454Clear this up for me too, of MK-4 or MK-7, which one is for artery health ?
2455Also, there is 2-year K2 study by NCBI called VITAK_CAC that I am waiting to see their results. DO you know about it ?
2456thanks,
2457Jim
2458
2459Reply
2460Vin Kutty
2461January 10, 2018 at 7:44 pm
2462Hi again, Jim – I am neither authorized nor qualified to practice medicine in the state of California (where I live and our company is located), so I cannot answer some of your medical questions. Please understand that it is a regulatory requirement and not an unwillingness to help. Having said that, I am more than happy to discuss the science behind Vitamin K2 and nutrition.
2463
2464Taking a multivitamin/calcium pill is poor insurance against many illnesses, not because multis and calcium do no good, but because multivitamins are a shotgun approach to filling in nutritional gaps and what you took may not be what your body needs. Multis almost always contain the wrong amount of the wrong type of nutrient. There is some evidence that calcium in the absence of K2, D3, and A may end up hurting people. Calcium without a doubt will get deposited in soft tissues in a K2 deficient state. A much better approach is to have a dietitian and Integrative Medicine MD analyze your diet and deficiency symptoms, and evaluate your genetic predisposition to certain conditions and THEN suggest a diet and supplement routine to address the needed issues. But, seriously, how many of us go through that trouble so we can take the right supplements?
2465
2466BOTH MK-4 and MK-7 have a strong impact on heart and artery health. It is false and possibly dangerous to think that only MK-7 can help. Research on MK-4 has slowed down. The rate of new and positive science building under MK-7 is both comforting and impressive. But the reason that MK-7 gets so much more attention is that it is being driven by two things: 1) commercial interests and 2) longer half-life. There are new and patented ways to manufacture MK-7 and the companies that own the patents are funding a lot of research. Thanks to the safety profile of MK-7, the dosages used in studies continue to go up. The VitaK-CAC study that you mention uses 360 mcg of MK-7. This study is partially funded by an MK-7 manufacturer. More here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4663571/ There have already been other studies along these lines at similar doses. What you need to take away from these studies is that higher MK-7 doses appear safe and something you may want to consider. But I would not dismiss MK-4 at all. I’d also strongly recommend that you take 3000 mg of Omega-3 daily, along with 400 mg Magnesium, a B-complex, 100 mg CoQ10 along with your D3, K2, and A. If you want to take a multi in addition to all that, that’s fine. Completely laying off sugar, juices, processed grains, junk foods, cereals, and basically anything with flour will help. Replace your diet with one that contains a lot of veggies and fiber.
2467
2468Reply
2469Shameer M.
2470January 14, 2018 at 7:01 pm
2471Hi Vin,
2472
2473What are your thoughts on this Basic Bone Nutrients product by Thorne Research?
2474
2475https://www.thorne.com/products/dp/basic-bone-nutrients
2476
2477It’s fairly new & seems fairly containing. My Vitamin D is low so I am planning to take 2 tablets a day of this product along with 6 drops a day of the Thorne Vitamin D3 / K2 liquid.
2478
2479https://www.thorne.com/products/dp/vitamin-d-k2-liquid
2480
2481Reply
2482Vin Kutty
2483January 15, 2018 at 2:42 am
2484Hi Shameer – the problem with multi-ingredient formulas like this is that one size never fits all. It has 500 IU of D3, which is not enough to nudge up your serum D3 levels. It has 45 mcg of K2 as MK-7, which is about half to a third of what I prefer. It is missing MK-4. Calcium and Magnesium are inadequate. All in all, you’d need 3 or 4 of these pills a day, spread out over the day. Even then, you may need additional D3 if you are trying to correct a deficiency.
2485
2486Reply
2487Tom
2488February 28, 2018 at 1:51 pm
2489Hi Vin,
2490
2491I enjoy tremendously reading your insights. I find them both very knowledgable and also caring. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge.
2492I would love to read more of you, if you care to share what is that “another blog” you’ve mentioned?
2493
2494Thanks so much
2495
2496Reply
2497Vin Kutty
2498February 28, 2018 at 5:37 pm
2499Thank you, Tom. Here are two posts by a guest author that we published before this one:
2500
2501https://omegavia.com/vitamink2/
2502https://omegavia.com/vitamin-k2-part-2/
2503
2504Reply
2505Gail Taylor
2506January 24, 2018 at 2:03 pm
2507Hello Vin,
2508
2509I’m a post-menopausal female and after a bad accident three months ago when I fractured my wrist and femur I was informed by the surgeon who had to give me a complete hip replacement and pin my wrist back together that I have osteoporosis. He has given me a prescription for a drug called Prolia and told me if I take the recommended six monthly injection plus calcium supplements I should be able to stabilise my condition. I did some reading about Prolia and discovered that the majority of users suffer terrible debilitating side effects giving them a poor quality of life. I’m scared of further fractures but not prepared to risk Prolia so I’m looking for an alternative healthier way to treat my osteoporosis and read that calcium + D3 + K2 + magnesium + daily exercise is an effective combination.
2510
2511Previously I lived in the Middle East where its generally too hot to go out in daylight and developed a Vit D deficiency which was eventually diagnosed and corrected by my doctor there. I now Iive in Southern Spain which is cooler and sunny year round and I’m getting regular exposure to the sun. I also found out that the Omeprazol I’ve been taking many years to control acid reflux is possibly inhibiting calcium absorption. I can’t live without this medication so I’ve switched my diet to a healthier and more calcium rich one and ordered some Citracal Maximum calcium supplements recommended for those taking antacids. The dosage is 630mg elemental calcium citrate and 500iu Vit D as cholecalciferol twice daily.
2512
2513I’m now researching K2 which has happily brought me to your very informative webpage and would like to ask for your advice on a suitable combination and intake for my condition and a supplement that would provide it.
2514
2515Thank you so much,
2516Gail
2517
2518Reply
2519Vin Kutty
2520January 28, 2018 at 9:17 pm
2521Hi Gail – first, I’m glad you’re still here…because the accident could have been worse.
2522
2523As for your osteoporosis, it is a disease and medical condition and so, must be addressed by your doctor. I cannot officially offer you help. K2 is not a replacement for Prolia. Having said that, you are headed in the right direction. The combination Calcium (no more than 500 mg or so at a time) + K2 (a combination of MK-4 and MK-7. About 500 to 1000 mcg of the former and 100 to 200 mcg of the latter should do.) + D3 (most people need 4000 IU per day during winter months to maintain optimal levels), and of course Magnesium (about 400 mg of elemental Mg) together should help strengthen bones. It won’t happen overnight or even in a couple of months. But regular intake over a couple of years should make a difference.
2524
2525As for Omeprazole, ooh boy, this drug is meant for short-term use. Chronic use has a laundry list of side effects too long to list here. Omeprazole is usually a sign that diet is off its rails. Eliminating sugar, grain, and flour is a start. But I’d talk to an Integrative Medicine MD near you and/or a dietitian who specializes in whole food eating plan.
2526
2527Reply
2528Thea
2529January 25, 2018 at 10:57 pm
2530Hi Vin. I am wondering if there exists any contraindication for taking the various alternative blood thinners such as Lumbrokinase, Serrapeptase, Nattokinase along with K2? I have hypercoagulability and taking lumbrokinase 3x daily to thin my blood. Does lumbrokinase (or the other 2) interfere with K2 mechanism in the body the same way that pharmaceutical blood thinners do? As an aside, I have been taking the lumbrokinase for about a month and have noticed a marked decrease in dental plaque.
2531
2532Reply
2533Vin Kutty
2534January 28, 2018 at 9:24 pm
2535Hi Thea – lumbrokinase is a fibrinolytic enzyme, which does not interfere with K2. Serrapeptase is a proteolytic enzyme, so again, no known interference with K2. Nattokinase is another protein digesting enzyme that has similar actions to lumbrokinase. Nattokinase is actually found together with K2 in Natto, fermented soybeans, consumed in Japan. These enzymes do not work the same way that standard prescription medical blood thinners work. Given your condition, I would check with your doctor before you make any changes to your supplement routine.
2536
2537Reply
2538Betty
2539January 26, 2018 at 10:06 am
2540Does Now still use hexane to extract their oils. This is a concern of mine as I’ve used Now products for years after breast cancer surgery.
2541
2542Reply
2543Vin Kutty
2544January 29, 2018 at 1:05 am
2545Hi Betty – I don’t know. They have a good customer service department. If the person answering the phone does not know the answer, they do transfer you to people who know.
2546
2547Reply
2548Lara
2549January 26, 2018 at 10:17 pm
2550Hi there, I’m also interested in taking this product during pregnancy. At the moment we are starting IVF. My prenatal has 50 mcg of mk-7. If I add your formula, my mk-7 would be 150mcg. I just wanted to make sure that dosage isn’t to high. Of course I’ll run it by my fertility doctor. I have a feeling they are going to say not to take it without even considering it. In which case, I may look to take it before treatment and again after a positive pregnancy test when I can consult an OB. Still, I was wanting your opinion on dose. Thank you!
2551
2552Reply
2553Vin Kutty
2554January 29, 2018 at 1:13 am
2555Hi Lara – check with your doctor on dosage…although 150 mcg is fairly standard dose these days, as clinical research is being conducted on 360 mcg. But here is something you need to know: MK-7 doesn’t help a lot with developing fetus. It does cross the blood-brain barrier. Only MK-4 does. There is a paragraph about this in the article above. MK-7 is still good for you (the adult), but MK-4 is what helps the developing fetus.
2556
2557It’s about time prenatals starting including K2. But ironic that they went with the MK-7 form. Can you please share the name of the brand you are using? Also, make sure you are getting enough choline – another thing prenatals desperately need but virtually all of them lack. More here on what you might need when you get to pregnancy: https://omegavia.com/fish-oil-during-pregnancy/
2558
2559Reply
2560Lara
2561January 30, 2018 at 6:54 pm
2562Thanks for the info! For the past few years I took Carlson labs k2 (Mk-4) quite regularly — but my fertility doctor didn’t know much about it so she wasn’t keen on me taking it. At that time, I was taking mk-4 for oral health, but I discontinued taking them when I started the prenatals. The prenatals I’ve been taking are Garden of life Vitamin Code RAW prenatal and New Chapter Perfect prenatal. Neither contain Mk-4, but both have Mk-7. I’m hoping to get the go ahead with an mk-4 supplement though, not just for the health of a potential baby, but mine as well. I was diagnosed with osteoporosis when I was just 15 on account of anorexia. I’m not sure where my bones are today at 33, but I do have a dexa scan planned in the near future. Despite being quite healthy for the past 7 years or so, I’m concerned my bones may not be quite recovered. I really want to have a healthy and active pregnancy without complications. Still my bones definitely went through many years of not being properly looked after. I don’t have any symptoms of osteoporosis today, I’m quite active and eat a very nutrient dense diet so I’m hoping I’m not in too bad of shape.
2563
2564Reply
2565Lara
2566January 30, 2018 at 7:06 pm
2567*just thought I should not, the reason we are currently undergoing Ivf has to do with male infertility, nothing to do with an old eating disorder. All my hormones look quite great! They found my TSH level was a little high at 6 and needs to drop a little, but all my other numbers are right where they need to be. So far, we’ve been told we are easy compared to most couples who come in. I just want to make sure I’m doing all I can to ensure a healthy pregnancy. I appreciate the link to the DHA info. For the last month, I’ve been taking Nordic Naturals prenatal DHA… any thoughts on that product? Prior to this, I was taking Nutigold triple strength omega for multiple years.
2568
2569Reply
2570Vin Kutty
2571January 31, 2018 at 4:45 am
2572Hi again, Lara – have your partner take the following: DHA, Pycnogenol, CoQ10, Vitamin C and a regular multivitamin that contains good amounts of B vitamins and trace minerals. And, yes, K2 as well. And definitely cut out sugar and junk food! It takes about 90 days to improve motility and count. Both Nutrigold and Nordic are fine. You now have this too: https://shop.omegavia.com/products/omegavia-dha-600?variant=14633178183
2573
2574Reply
2575Vin Kutty
2576January 31, 2018 at 4:40 am
2577Hi Lara – I’m glad you’re here. And I’m glad you’re reading up on this stuff. Please re-read the part about K2 and pregnancy. You were doing the right thing by taking MK-4. I think you should bring this up with your doctor again. It is important. BTW, did you notice any improvement in your oral health with MK-4?
2578
2579Fertility and your baby’s health is very closely tied to nutrition, sun exposure, activity, etc.
2580
2581Reply
2582Lara
2583January 31, 2018 at 5:30 pm
2584Hi Vin,
2585
2586I plan to bring up the K2 mk-4 again, specifically to help protect my bones during pregnancy and help any growing baby. I was thinking of adding your k2 supplement, and maybe even a drop or two of the Thorne K2 for extra mk-4. I appreciate your recommendations for my husband. Unfortunately, our infertility problems are what they are. My husband had testicular cancer in 2011, so we are using banked sperm. It was truly this event though that got us both on a healthy path. In taking care of him, I learned to take care of myself. We eat a plant heavy diet, with organic meat and wild seafood as a bonus. As for my teeth, they improved a lot! They become whiter and brighter. I originally learned about the supplement when reading about vegan diets, and the benefit of adding k-2.
2587
2588Reply
2589Vin Kutty
2590January 31, 2018 at 9:11 pm
2591Hi Lara – if you are taking the Carlson MK-4 item, them adding the InnovixLabs product will have you fully covered on both MK-4 and MK-7. No need to add a third source of MK-4.
2592
2593Understood on the infertility situation. If the cancer scare from 7 years ago has now brought you two to a healthier place, then, that was the silver lining. Your diet sounds great. I wish you two the best.
2594
2595Reply
2596Lara
2597February 1, 2018 at 4:21 pm
2598Thanks, Vin. Any preference between Thorne or Carlsons for mk-4? I was wondering if Thorne might be better absorbed.
2599
2600Reply
2601Vin Kutty
2602February 1, 2018 at 8:19 pm
2603Hi Lara – I’d expect no difference in absorption. Choice is personal preference. Thorne is liquid and so, easier to take. Five drops of Thorne = 1 capsule from Carlsons. In the long run, Thorne is a better value because it will take you a LONG time to use up the Thorne liquid K2.
2604
2605Reply
2606Edward
2607February 2, 2018 at 6:00 am
2608Excellent article. But very frustrating!
2609I’ve tried ordering on your site and
2610Amazon but neither will send to Australia! For goodness sake, it 2018 how hard can it be?
2611It would seem OK for personal use. Have a read.
2612https://www.tga.gov.au/personal-importation-scheme
2613I can buy this product on ebay via ‘sharks’ who are charging $27 plus $22 postage!!
2614https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Full-Spectrum-VITAMIN-K2-by-InnovixLabs-Provides-two-essential-forms-of-K2-MK-4-/231900107689
2615Looks like a great product, how about finding an agent and expand you business in the land downunder.
2616Edward
2617
2618Reply
2619Vin Kutty
2620February 3, 2018 at 2:31 am
2621Hi Edward – on behalf of InnovixLabs, my sincere apologies. Amazon won’t ship abroad from the US because of ‘regulatory issues.’ We, well, don’t have an excuse. The InnovixLabs.com site will be configured to accept orders from several countries, including Australia, in another month or so. In the meantime, shipments to Australia/NZ are being manually processed by Customer Service. They’ll be in touch with you.
2622
2623The TGA does a great job safeguarding your fellow citizens, but securing regulatory approval for bulk exports to Australia is…it’s impolite to say those things in public.
2624
2625Reply
2626Shameer M.
2627February 4, 2018 at 7:42 pm
2628Hi Vin,
2629
2630The company that makes MenaQ7 K2 has introduced what they call a “full spectrum” Vitamin K2 that contains Vitamin K2 (MK) 6, 7, 8, 9. Any plans to introduce this in your Vitamin K2 supplement?
2631
2632http://www.nattopharma.com/menaq7-full-spectrum-vitamin-k2-launch-supplyside-west/
2633
2634Reply
2635Vin Kutty
2636February 5, 2018 at 5:34 pm
2637Hi Shameer – we’ve been discussing this ingredient with them for a while. It’s mostly MK-7 with small amounts of 6, 8, and 9. It takes a long time to establish ingredient/formula stability. If everything checks out, we’ll consider including this in our formula.
2638
2639Reply
2640Jerry P
2641February 5, 2018 at 5:01 am
2642I was very concerned about innovixlabs k2 product…the label says made in USA…but on Amazon product questions and answers innovix answered a question concerning where the ingredients are made…the label says USA but they said the mk-4 was made in China…so should the label say 1/2 made in USA…personally I try very hard not to put anything in my body or my family that is made in China…I am very disappointed…I guess all labeling has to be suspect…sad very sad.
2643
2644Reply
2645Vin Kutty
2646February 7, 2018 at 2:05 am
2647Hi Jerry – I understand and share your concern. We’ve always been upfront about the sources of all ingredients. If you review even a few of the nearly 300 comments above, you’ll find that frank talk and open disclosure is a part of our culture and approach. Country of origin is a subject that comes up from time to time on our websites and when customers call our customer service line. We will always openly share this information.
2648
2649MK-7 is made in USA. MK-4 is made in China. The gelatin used to make the capsule is from Brazil and Argentina. The olive oil in which the K2 is dissolved is from USA. Per labeling regulations, a product’s ‘Made in’ status is different from the origin of a specific ingredient within the product. The ‘Made in’ status is where the substantial portion of the value of the product originates. That would clearly be USA. It is virtually impossible these days to manufacture or buy a dietary supplement with a single country of origin – for example: every single multivitamin on the market will contain ingredients from several countries including China, as there are no Vitamin C manufacturers left in America. For what it’s worth, the new version of our Vitamin K2 product label does not say ‘Made in USA’ and innovixlabs.com website reflects this as well. Instead, when space on the label permits, we declare the country of origin of each ingredient.
2650
2651Having said all that, MK-4 is not available from anywhere else but China. There is no other source. Most products on the market contain MK-7 made in India. However, science shows that MK-4 should be the predominant form of K2 in our diet. Given this scenario, we have a highly reliable and trustworthy source for MK-4. The MK-4 manufacturer is required by U.S. law to meet the same safety standards as suppliers in the U.S. or any other country. Still, both the raw material and the finished product are verified for purity and potency in our lab and as well as a third-party lab to ensure purity and potency.
2652
2653Reply
2654Patricia Seaward, CN
2655May 28, 2018 at 2:16 am
2656Dr Cicero Coimbra believes that K2 should be taken 12 hours away from D3 link to article. http://www.vitamindprotocol.com/the-vitamin-k2-revolution.html
2657The reasoning is they both vie for same receptor site(s). Does K2 use the same receptor sites and/or pathways as D3 and therefore should they be taken 12 hrs apart for optimal efficacy?
2658I’m a certified nutritionist and certified enzyme therapist and need to know these particulars in order to recommend the best protocol.
2659
2660Looking forward to your answer.
2661Trish
2662
2663Reply
2664Vin Kutty
2665May 29, 2018 at 10:30 pm
2666Hi Trish –
2667
2668I’ve not be able to find any compelling evidence that supports the notion that D3 and K2 should be taken a few hours apart.
2669
2670If you’re on an extremely low-fat diet, absorption may be compromised. But for the rest of us, dietary fat is not a bottleneck as the link in your comment suggests. The Coimbra link does not provide reference to back up the statement.
2671
2672D3 and its downstream metabolites are transported using an alpha globulin protein. This is a high capacity system and is unlikely to be bottlenecked in any way. D3 also has multiple receptor sites. So, I don’t see how the argument hold. It’s not immediately obvious (to me) how these to interdependent molecules may competitive inhibit each other at receptor sites. Still, I’ve reached out to the authors of the studies linked below. If I hear otherwise, I will post it here. Until then, I’d go with taking 500 to 1000 mcg of MK-4 daily. All the other MKs can be taken in smaller amounts. Instead of focusing on WHEN to take D3 and K, I’d suggest simply taking K2 with D3 and A.
2673
2674https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5613455/
2675https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17145139
2676
2677Reply
2678The Fat Lover
2679June 12, 2018 at 7:12 am
2680Hi, Vin Kutty,
2681
2682I want to know whether K2 MK-4 has also an TRANS and CIS form, can’t find that anywhere. As I found a product with D3 from Lichen, MK-4, MK-7 both claiming to be all TRANS. Or is it just limited to long chain lengths like MK-7, 8, 9? Besides, if there is an CIS and TRANS form of MK-4, it would seem that the Japanese study uses CIS as it’s in pretty high dosage to be effective.
2683
2684Reply
2685Vin Kutty
2686June 12, 2018 at 11:52 pm
2687Hi The Fat Lover – MK-4 is also in the trans form. You’re right, not much talk of MK-4 being cis or trans. It’s not expressly stated whether Japanese studies used cis of trans form.
2688
2689Reply
2690The Fat Lover
2691June 13, 2018 at 4:30 am
2692Thanks for that, I emailed Thorne Research, as they have a K2 liquid drops that can technically last a life time. And they said all their K2 are in CIS, so I’m definitely not getting their K2 MK-7, but what about MK-4, since it’s a short chain, perhaps maybe the body can convert it easier to TRANS from CIS? Any data in this?
2693
2694Reply
2695Vin Kutty
2696June 13, 2018 at 11:16 pm
2697Hi The Fat Lover – Thorne is a good company. Yes, they are our competitors, but I am going to come to their defense and say that your customer service person mis-spoke or mis-typed. I’m guessing the person meant all-trans. Both consumers (and believe it or not!) and the supplement industry are just becoming aware of the cis/trans K2 issue. Fortunately, once aware, companies are doing the right thing by selling the nature-identical form of K2. As for MK-4, I have only seen the trans form available.
2698
2699Reply
2700The Fat Lover
2701June 15, 2018 at 12:22 pm
2702Perhaps, they’ve just switched and some of their products was still in CIS? I didn’t use trickery in my question to them, I was pretty frank. Besides, many companies still sell D-Ascorbic Acid rather L-Ascorbic Acid. So it’s not possible to have a CIS MK-4, or just needs a lot of chemical for that change.
2703This is what they said: “Our vitamin K products are all Cis, no Trans. They are both produced via a chemical synthesis process. No solvents except alcohol are used.
2704
2705Our Vitamin D is derived from lanolin, which is converted into vitamin D and purified.”
2706Anyways, you’ve got a nice competitor especially for the MK-4. Besides, how much K1 does our body converts to MK-4, a source mentioned 10%, but is that based on percentage or just limited in amounts. If I were to eat Kale and get 1000 mcg of K1, would I get 100 mcg of MK-4 or is that TOO high.
2707
2708Reply
2709Vin Kutty
2710June 15, 2018 at 7:43 pm
2711I can’t address the Cis/Trans issues from that company any more than I have.
2712
2713As for converting K1 to MK-4. We are capable of it. It happens in liver tissues and possibly some microbial conversion as well. How much and how well does K1 and MK-7 get converted to MK-4? That’s a good question. We don’t have a clear answer. We don’t even know what enzyme is responsible for that conversion. We don’t know how much impact microbiome dysbiosis influences this. We don’t know how much nutritional insufficiency influences this either, but we think zinc and magnesium deficiencies can bottleneck this process – and we know that most adults are borderline low in magnesium intake. But we do know that several statin drugs prevent this conversion from K1 to K2. Population studies that show high K1 intake does not show a corresponding increased K2 status and subsequent improved cardiac status. So there must be something that prevents the high K1 consumption from getting converted to K2.
2714
2715So, the take home message (especially for vegans who believe all the K2 they need can come from K1) is that you probably still need some K2 in the MK-4 form from elsewhere in your diet.
2716
2717Reply
2718The Fat Lover
2719June 15, 2018 at 12:32 pm
2720And btw, I’m thinking why the Dutch are tall :). I believe in their diets, though now it’s worse. But in the 60s 80s… they have lots of MK-4, as their cows are pretty much grass-fed. And since they spent a lot of time in the sun too, they should get sufficient D3, and they also consume a LOT of cheese. So I’ll assume the older generation of dutch used to consume 1100 to 1500mg of calcium a day? Though we don’t need that much… and have probably 5000 to 7000 IU of D3, based on the time spent outdoors, and UV as well as light skin. And they probably have 200 mcg of MK-4, 300 mcg of MK-8, 9 a day. Which I believe allowed them to grow seriously tall. What are you thoughts on it.
2721
2722Reply
2723Vin Kutty
2724June 15, 2018 at 7:45 pm
2725It’s a fun topic. Increased height among the Dutch and their K2-rich cheese consumption has crossed my mind. Also interesting to note is that most K2 research was pioneered there.
2726
2727Reply
2728Stacey
2729June 17, 2018 at 2:59 am
2730Hi Vin,
2731Was hoping in the near future you might create a pharmaceutical dose. There is one other brand out there that I’m aware of that does, but I would prefer yours for those of us who need it for heart disease, and that take a statin, & also large amounts of Vit D3. Thank you
2732
2733Reply
2734Vin Kutty
2735June 19, 2018 at 9:01 pm
2736Hi Stacey – I am not aware of a pharmaceutical dose for MK-7. Doses used in most studies on MK-7 can be reached with one or two capsules of our product. MK-4 is sold as pharmaceutical drug in Japan, for osteoporosis, at much higher doses than we offer. We have no plans to offer that much MK-4 because because 500 to 1000 micrograms of MK-4 is able to provide significant support to your health. If you’re focused on supporting your heart health, take two capsules a day – that’s what I do. As for D3, that depends on several factors, depending on your serum levels, amount of sun exposure, time of year, your diet etc. It’s best to measure your blood D level and tailor your dosage with your doctor’s help. On average people need about 4000 IU per day, but that’s on average – it may not apply to you. Someone’s who works at a desk all day may require a lot more by the end of winter than, say, a lifeguard.
2737
2738Reply
2739Amy
2740July 6, 2018 at 6:58 am
2741I have been taking 10000 iu’s of Vit D along with the Innovix Vit k2 and a Mag glycinate daily. My D levels have been low for a couple of years, and supplementing with D alone weren’t bringing them up to desirable levels. Now that I’ve been taking these 3 supplements, my D levels are up to 65 at last test (in May). I just recently saw a GI specialist for problems relating to my gall bladder removal, and she said I should come off of the Vit K right away as it could cause blood clotting. I know that there is some concern in taking Vit K if you are on blood thinners, but any danger if you aren’t? I have read through all the comments and am trying to understand all the different factors in supplementing with K. Any info you can give me, with links if possible, are appreciated. My regular doctor is aware of the different supplements I’m taking, it was the specialist that was concerned. Thanks!
2742
2743Reply
2744Vin Kutty
2745July 7, 2018 at 7:17 am
2746Hi Amy – Vitamin K2, if taken at higher than 50 micrograms per day (or thereabout) can interfere mildly with blood thinning medications. Ki can interfere much more with blood thinners. If you are not on these medications, there are no known blood clotting risks if you follow label directions. Still, I suggest you go with your doctor’s advise. If you decide to stop K2, you may want to reduce your D3 levels. Taking that much D3 without K2 and A may cause issues your doctor may not be able to pinpoint.
2747
2748Reply
2749Thea Wilson
2750July 10, 2018 at 9:31 pm
2751Hi Vin. I seem to have a problem with MK-4. Just one drop of the Thorne formulation gives me painful muscle cramps in the backs of my legs; thighs, behind knees & calves. I’m thinking it might be a reaction to the Nightshade source of synthetic MK-4. Any recommendations for an alternate source of MK-4. Would HVBO give me enough MK-4 to be effective? I’ve also considered dessicated liver supplements, but because I’m menopausal, I fear iron overload. Does anyone manufacture a synthetic MK-4 that is not derived from a Nightshade source? Thanks, Thea
2752
2753Reply
2754Vin Kutty
2755July 11, 2018 at 10:18 am
2756Hi Thea – given how sensitive you appear to be to MK-4 supplements, I suggest you look to food sources listed in the article above. I don’t like fermented cod liver oil or butter oils because they don’t seem to disclose how much K2 one serving contains.
2757
2758Reply
2759Jay LIM
2760August 15, 2018 at 3:26 pm
2761Hi vin, thanks for your good wepsite. I love reading your writing.
2762I recently take vitaminD 4,000 IU everyday.
2763And I want to determine the dose of vitamin A.
2764
2765January 9, 2018 you said
2766“or if I don’t eat foods rich in A and E, I supplement with it once or twice a week.”
2767And in another article’s reply, you said
2768“Also, you don’t need that much Vitamin A daily, a few times a week is fine. ”
2769
2770Does this mean that I should take vitamin A 20,000IU at a time twice a week ?
2771or take A 70,000 IU at a time ( 20,000 * 7 / 2 = 70,000) twice a week?
2772
2773And I read that vitamin A should not be taken with vitamin D. Is it right?
2774But if I eat vitamin D in the morning and vitamin A in the evening, I heard that vitamin
2775A interferes with sleep… Is it right? How much vitamin A can disrupt sleep?
2776I’d like to set a time for vitamin A.
2777
2778Reply
2779Vin Kutty
2780August 17, 2018 at 1:13 am
2781Hi Jay – how much Vitamin A you supplement with depends on your diet. Without an intimate understanding of your diet, I cannot tell you how much Vitamin A you might need. But I feel fairly confident in saying that if you took 20,000 IU once or twice a week, you’d meet most of your needs.
2782
2783When I supplement, I take my A, D3, K2, and E complex together with a meal. I don’t see a reason to separate A and D3. Vitamin A supplements do not disrupt sleep if taken at recommended levels. Keep in mind that Vitamin A is critical for maintaining a healthy sleep/wake cycle.
2784
2785Reply
2786Jay LIM
2787August 19, 2018 at 2:11 am
2788Hi vin.
2789Thank you very much for your kind reply.
2790Your suggestion is very useful for me!
2791
2792Reply
2793Jeanna
2794October 1, 2018 at 6:42 am
2795I’m steroid dependent as of two years ago due to secondary adrenal insufficiency (SAI) due to an inflamed pituitary. I have started fracturing and have bulging discs, and kyphosis since last Oct. It started overnight with no trauma. I’ve lost 3 inches in height this year. I lost 1 inch prior to that due to Osteopenia. My bone density score was 2.6 going on two years ago, but according to a recent x-rays the bones are in really bad shape due to light grey bones vs dark grey bones, so my condition has escalated. I have 11 fractures and bulging discs now according to MRI reports. The fractures went undiagnosed for 6 mths until this spring when my new Neurosurgeon discovered the first fracture in a disc from 6 mths earlier from the E.R. They sent me home saying my back pain was muscular. My Neurosurgeon sent me for another MRI and discovered several more fractures of the spine. The bulging discs in S1-L5 were in the radiology report from the E.R., but I discovered that when I got the radiology report from the E.R. The Kyphosis puts a lot of pressure on my lower back and belly. It’s too late to do kyphoplasty, but I am leery of that. I don’t wish to do bone drugs.
2796
2797I’ve been taking Healthy Origins Vit D 5,000 IU for many years now due to low Vit D. What do you think of Healthy Origins Vit D? I take magnesium every day, a good quality B complex with folate since I have a mild MTHFR defect. I also take sublingual B12 Hydroxycobalamin, (I have anemia off and on and enlarged blood cells) and take zinc. I take high doses of Vit C crystals 3 x per day to help build collagen. I’ve been taking collagen powder, but wonder if that’s a good choice since I haven’t been taking K2. I’ve added Starwest Botanicals turmeric powder along with pepper for inflammation.
2798Do you think Starwest Botanicals is safe? It comes from India. I’m taking 1/2 teaspoon per day of turmeric along with 1/4 teaspoon of Vit C crystals in powdered form and 1/8 teaspoon of organic cayenne powder, pepper and 1 Tablespoon of Braggs ACV 3 x per day before meals.
2799
2800I wonder if all these years of Vit D per day has contributed to my bone density problems. I now realize that I need Vit K2, in both forms.
2801
2802Steroids don’t help, but they convert to cortisol and my cortisol levels were only .5 mg prior to SAI diagnosis, and I had lost 35 lbs which made me look like I had anorexia. I was having multiple A-Fibrillation attacks prior to my SAI diagnosis. That is now stable, but I still have tacchycardia attacks when my cortisol drops too low. I updose my steroids when I have tacchycardia and it goes away.
2803
2804I’m in a lot of pain when walking and getting comfortable is difficult. I practically live in my recliner with my heating pad. I can’t seem to get into an exercise regime due to limited mobility and low energy. Steroids have not improved my QOL. I’ve had
2805CFS and FM since 1995. I’m now almost 59. SAI is much worse than CFS. The Epstein Barr virus triggered CFS and FM. I also have a mouth full of mercury.
2806
2807My budget is limited due to disability income and no financial help, so if you can help me to eliminate things and add the most important things like K2 I would really appreciate that. I have Medicare/Medicaid, so seeing a Dr out of pocket is impossible.
2808
2809I know I’m asking a lot, but feel you can help me if I’m not overwhelming you with TMI.
2810
2811Finding your blog with all of these Q & A has convinced me that if I had taken K2 sooner I may not have this collapsing spine.
2812
2813I have been reading for days and thanks for clarifying that the Japanese study using 45 mg of K2 MK-4 is not necessary. You have so much common sense and provide logical and easy to understand explanations about using much lower doses of K2 MK-4, and MK-7.
2814
2815You are so generous in offering to help us free of charge. You deserve to be rewarded by your higher power. I’m trying to avoid the subject of religion because I respect your own beliefs.
2816
2817Reply
2818Vin Kutty
2819October 2, 2018 at 7:36 pm
2820Hi Jeanna – you’ve been dealt a lot! It can’t be easy. Before I answer your specific questions, may I suggest you work with an Integrative Medicine MD in your area? If insurance and finances do not permit, at least consider an Integrative Medicine dietitian who could help optimize nutrient intake.
2821
2822Healthy Origins Vitamin D – yes, this is fine.
2823Starwest Botanicals – they are fine too, but I’d rather you take a Curcumin extract rather than powdered Turmeric.
2824
2825Vitamin D in high doses for long periods of time without adequate Vitamin A, K2, Magnesium and the other cofactors may cause some issues. I’m not saying that is the root cause of all the issues. What doesn’t cause bone issues is if you get all your Vitamin D from the sun. It’s free and you cannot overdose on D from the sun. The form of D made by the skin is superior to what’s in supplements and may have other benefits. Chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia can be partially managed with dietary and lifestyle intervention – this is why I strongly recommend working with a dietitian who follows general Integrative Medicine guidelines. At first, it’d be mostly a drastic dietary change. You’re going to hate it. That’s OK. After a couple of months, you’ll start seeing benefits, which will give you the momentum you need to change activity and sun exposure levels.
2826
2827It’d be silly to say that taking Vitamin K2 will fix all of this. It won’t. If you’re deficient (likely), then it will help correct the deficiency. But the inadequacy of K2 is not why you’re here today. It sounds like there are multiple causes and you need professional (of some kind) to help you navigate and triangulate to the root causes.
2828
2829In the meantime, see if you can get a copy of this book: https://www.amazon.com/Make-Disease-Disappear-Rangan-Chatterjee/dp/0062846345
2830
2831Reply
2832Ben Cox
2833October 10, 2018 at 6:27 am
2834I’m not a doctor, but what you have doesn’t seem like “normal” osteoporosis. Something is out of whack and it appears to be much more serious than a lack of K2. Your low energy and weight loss caused me to think maybe it’s your thyroid. Then I recalled you mentioning your inflamed pituitary. It turns out “the thyroid gland is under the control of the pituitary gland.” After a little research, here’s what I found:
2835
2836“What is the link between thyroid disease and osteoporosis?
2837Thyroid hormone affects the rate of bone replacement. Too much thyroid hormone (i.e. thyroxine) in your body speeds the rate at which bone is lost. If this happens too fast the osteoblasts may not be able to replace the bone loss quickly enough. If the thyroxine level in your body stays too high for a long period or the thyroid-stimulating hormone (TSH) level in your body stays too low for a long period then there is a higher risk of developing osteoporosis. There is also some evidence that people with low TSH levels may lose bone at a faster rate than those with normal TSH levels even when the blood thyroxine measurement is within the normal range, but this is still being studied.”
2838
2839TSH is a pituitary hormone
2840“Thyroid-stimulating hormone (TSH) is a pituitary hormone that stimulates the thyroid gland to produce thyroxine (T4), and then triiodothyronine (T3) which stimulates the metabolism of almost every tissue in the body.”
2841
2842Yes, I would say this is worth checking into.
2843
2844Reply
2845Michele
2846November 23, 2018 at 1:36 pm
2847Hello,
2848could you reccomend me a brand of cod fish oil (liquid) to buy in Europe ?
2849
2850Thanks
2851
2852Reply
2853Vin Kutty
2854November 26, 2018 at 6:51 pm
2855Hi Michele – the only European cod liver oil brand I am familiar with is Seven Seas.
2856
2857Reply
2858Sherly
2859December 21, 2018 at 7:01 am
2860Hello, thank you for this article. I’m searching for vit K2 for my Mom. She’s 68years old, was diagnosed osteopenia, so the doctor suggest high dose of Calcium (carbonate) and vit D3, without K2 (in Indonesia, mostly we never heard about vit K2). Now, she’s diagnosed with aorta calsification. Would you please suggest what vit K2 and the dossage ? And does she still need to take vit D3 ?
2861Thank you.
2862
2863Reply
2864Vin Kutty
2865December 27, 2018 at 12:04 am
2866Hi Sherly – Calcium and D3, along with weight bearing exercises are typical recommendations for improving bone strength. But you will also need Magnesium and Vitamin K2. K2 is also important for arterial health. Dosage for arterial health is 180 micrograms (mcg) daily of K2 as MK-7. Newer studies have used higher doses like 360 mcg without issues. The body has an independent need for D3, but I’ll let her doctor dictate how much. Typically, it is 4000 to 5000 IU per day of D3. If cultural norms prevent full body sun exposure, then it becomes even more critical to supplement with D3.
2867
2868Reply
2869Sherly
2870February 2, 2019 at 5:21 am
2871Sorry for late reply, it tooks time to searching in tons of comments. Really appreciate you still answering, thank you! It’s hard to find vit K2 here, finally i got Nature’s Way Osteo-K vit K2 180mcg. Is it good? Since the diagnosa, she’s afraid to take Calcium and D3. But i tried to give her Anchor butter/Gouda hard cheese for calcium. Is it enough? Since our country is tropical, i think we didn’t need vit D supplement? Btw, what is weight bearing excercise? FYI, she had scoliosis too, and high LDL.
2872I can’t trust doctor here..1st doctor don’t even talk about K2, 2nd just said K2 is good but doesnt help much, and told my Mom to stay away from any cholesterol such eggs & coconut milk.
2873
2874Reply
2875Vin Kutty
2876February 5, 2019 at 11:13 pm
2877Hi Sherly – I am not familiar with the brand of K2 you mentioned. Butter does not contain calcium, but cheese usually does. You will need to work with a dietitian near you to nail down the details of her diet.
2878
2879Reply
2880Deepak
2881December 27, 2018 at 3:16 am
2882Hello, Vin.
2883
2884Many thanks for sharing your knowledge. I’ve a couple of questions and I’m hoping that you will see this comment and answer.
2885
28861. Which of the two forms of K2, MK-4 or MK-7, would be more effective in dealing with dental cavities? As much as I would like to buy your brand of K2, being a vegetarian (mainly plant based with small amount of whole grains) I’m looking at other options. I’m on a budget and want to limit my shopping only to the most necessary supplements.
2887
28882. Is it necessary to supplement with D3, even if I spend time under the sun? I live in India and this is not a problem at all.
2889
28903. Are there any co-factors absolutely necessary for K2 to be effective? I’m currently taking Magnesium and Boron.
2891
2892Reply
2893Vin Kutty
2894January 4, 2019 at 9:27 pm
2895Hi Deepak – we don’t have enough concrete evidence to show which if the K2 forms help with dental cavities.
2896
2897Unless you are spending a couple of hours a day in the sun, you are probably not making enough D3 in your skin. Get your D level checked and supplement per your doctor’s instructions.
2898
2899K2 works in tandem with D3, and Vitamin A. Those are the two key cofactors to keep in mind.
2900
2901Reply
2902Chante
2903March 27, 2019 at 4:54 pm
2904Hi,
2905I know the source of MK-4 is synthetic but bio identical. What is it actually derived from?
2906Thank you!
2907
2908Reply
2909Vin Kutty
2910March 27, 2019 at 6:08 pm
2911Hi Chante – the raw material for making MK-4 are usually leaves and geranium petals. I suppose it could be called ‘natural’ due to the starting material, but we choose not to until the FDA has provided clear guidance on what can and cannot be called natural. The process of making MK-4 from vegetable matter is almost the same as making MK-7 from soy powder or chickpea (garbanzo) powder. Even though the manufacturing process is virtually the same, MK-7 is often called natural. I’m not sure why that is…must be a marketing decision.
2912
2913Reply
2914Thea Wilson
2915April 8, 2019 at 3:28 am
2916Hi Vin. You mention that there is an MK4 that is made from geranium petals & leaves? What is this brand/contact info for manufacturer?
2917
2918I’m desperately seeking a source of MK4 that is NOT made from tobacco or tobacco leaves, or any other Nightshade source. I have a severe sensitivity to Nightshades.
2919
2920Thanx so much. You are an invaluable resource. Thea
2921
2922Reply
2923Vin Kutty
2924April 9, 2019 at 6:07 pm
2925Hi Thea – as of now (2018/2019), I am not aware of any MK-4 producer that guarantees 100% geranium petal sourced raw material. We know geranium is widely used, but they may occasionally use tobacco, other nightshade, or any other leaves or petals that contain geraniol and/or farnesol, the two natural components needed to begin MK-4 production. Unfortunately, there is currently no widespread demand for geranium-only MK-4. If there is a big enough market for it, I am certain someone will begin offering a geranium-based MK-4, but I don’t see that happening in the next few years.
2926
2927You may want to look into a drug called Glakay. It is sold in Japan (with a prescription) and it is 15 mg MK-4 per pill. However, I do not know if it is nightshade free.
2928
2929Reply
2930Joe
2931April 16, 2019 at 8:13 pm
2932Hi Vin – Many folks are using Cod Liver Oil and Emu Oil together for the Vitamin A/D/K synergy. I think this is a valid approach if you can find good products that don’t go rancid and oxidize. There are good products out there. Emu Oil will contain about 5 mcg/g of Vitamin K2 MK4. At the recommended dosage of 6 g per day, this will provide about 30 mcg of MK4. This is far below the amount you are recommending (500-1000 mcg). However, this seems to be the most concentrated MK4 food found in nature. One would have to eat enormous amounts of hard cheeses, egg yolks, chicken liver, etc to reach that goal. Some of the new health protocols are saying that these large doses are only necessary when taking in an isolated supplement, and the body’s utilization of the vitamin will be far superior in a synergistic food blend. I do value your products (I use many of them), but I try to exercise caution when taking a single nutrient in isolation in a large dose. I feel this can create further imbalances in the body over time. What are your thoughts on this topic and what do you think is the most practical solution?
2933
2934Reply
2935Vin Kutty
2936April 17, 2019 at 4:41 am
2937Hi Joe – foods are always a better source of nutrition (and pleasure!) than pills. Cod liver oil can be a good source of A and D if you can find a source that has not had its A and D removed. Most of the drug store variety cod liver oil pills have A added back. The issue with CLO is what you mentioned – anything that has A and D may be oxidized. Unless CLO has been tested for purity, oxidation parameters, and environmental contaminants by some organization, like, say, IFOS, I am not touching it. If it passes, I will happily take it.
2938
2939Emu oil has potential. It does contains a little MK-4 form of K2, but only very little. Hard to find fatty goose liver (Foie Gras), but that’s where I’d look first. Butter from cows that recently ate rapidly growing green grass is a great source, and so is pastured egg yolks, and liver. Chicken dark meat is a surprisingly good source. These are your practical solutions, possibly with a little Emu oil, again, if you can confirm quality.
2940
2941Taking a single nutrient in isolation and in very large doses is, well, artificial. That’s why it’s better to get nutrients from real foods. Having said that, there is no scientific merit in saying 100 mcg of MK-4 from foods is better than 500 mcg from a pill. MK-4 is MK-4 – it is extremely well absorbed, regardless of source. Now, calcium, that’s a different story. A lot of calcium without magnesium, D3, K2, boron etc, is not a good idea. With K2, what you need to make sure is that you get enough D3 and A with it. The foods I mention in the paragraph above contain K2, along with A. Eat it outside in the sun…and you’re good to go!
2942
2943Reply
2944Lydia Segal
2945April 21, 2019 at 1:18 am
2946Vin, is it safe for a patient with advanced atherosclerosis, who has atrial fibrillation and had a stroke and heart attack, and is on Eliquis 5.0mg/day to take MK-4 and MK-7? Clearly his arteries need K2. But what about the fact that this patient is prone to clotting (given his a-fib)? I assume that K2 would further promotes clotting? Would Eliquis counterbalance that? What do you think? Thanks!
2947
2948Reply
2949Vin Kutty
2950April 21, 2019 at 2:22 pm
2951Hi Lydia – if you’re under medical care, then, you must discuss this with your doctor before you make a decision to take Vitamin K1 or K2. By itself, MK-4 and MK-7 are safe, but both influence blood clotting time. If you were taking Coumadin (Warfarin), then, taking K2, even at 20-50 mcg per day can affect clotting time. However, newer generations of anticoagulants like Eliquis, Pradaxa or Xarelto do not interfere with Vitamin K while providing anticoagulant effects. In other words, Eliquis is not a ‘Vitamin K Antagonist,’ (unlike Coumadin) which means if you’re consistent about eating some Vitamin K1 or K2 rich foods, you may be able to take Eliquis along with K2. Still, check with your doctor before you start taking K1 or K2.
2952
2953Reply
2954Andrew
2955May 2, 2019 at 7:45 pm
2956Hello,
2957
2958I’ve been taking Life Extension Super K2 for some years then I came across your article with the test results and I changed to Thorne Research, 3-K Complete.
2959
2960I’ve just learned now that Life Extension has changed the formula of their product and they claim that now it’s all-trans. I e-mailed them for a proof and they sent me lab result from their internal Quality Assurance/Quality Control showing it’s all-trans now.
2961
2962What do you think about this? Would you trust them? I’m thinking about to switch back to their product.
2963
2964Reply
2965Vin Kutty
2966May 6, 2019 at 8:07 pm
2967Hi Andrew – yes, I trust them. Remember, this article was written a few years ago. Life Extension upgraded their formula to all-trans a year or two ago. So, the change is not new. Just curious…why switch from Thorne to Life Extension?
2968
2969Reply
2970Minh
2971May 3, 2019 at 10:01 pm
2972Hi Vin. Your articles are so informative. I’ve learned a lot in my journey of finding good supplements for my family. Yes, I know food is the best source but our diet are currently not ideal. Do you know about the Pure TheraPro Rx Vegan D3 + K2 “Full Spectrum” Drops? It seems to hit all your criteria for a good K2 supplement with bonus Vit D. I’m currently giving this to my 2 years old. From reading their information and reply on the Q&As, their words are very similar, if not identical, to your words here in the article. Is it a coincidence? Thanks
2973
2974Reply
2975Vin Kutty
2976May 6, 2019 at 8:14 pm
2977Hi Minh – if their words are ‘identical’ to mine, then, it is probably not a coincidence. Use caution giving drops to 2 year olds. It is very easy to overdose on Vitamin D3. You really need Vitamin A and some E if you are giving a child liquid D3.
2978
2979Reply
2980Minh
2981May 7, 2019 at 3:51 pm
2982Yes, I understand about the risk of overdosing with liquid supplement but it’s easier to give liquid to a 2 years old than tablet/gel. The serving size is 5 drops = 5000 UI D3, 500 mcg MK4, 180 mcg MK7. I only give him one drop a day (1000 UI D3, 100 mcg MK4, 36 mcg MK7). I know for D3 that’s plenty, especially summer is comming but as for MK4 and MK7, is that amount enough? How much Vit A and E should I give him? He drinks organic grass-fed milk, eat cheese and egg (white and yolk) 2-3 times a week, some vegetables, chicken, red meat, and fish. How much should I give him to cover the base just in case on days he doesn’t eat well? He’s also taking Best Nest Kids Liquid Vitamin (https://www.amazon.com/Best-Nest-L-Methylfolate-Methylcobalamin-Wellness/dp/B072J513XH/ref=sr_1_fkmrnull_1?crid=1TRAOCLOGK8U7&keywords=best+nest+kids+liquid+multi&qid=1557242485&s=gateway&sprefix=best+nest+kids%2Caps%2C355&sr=8-1-fkmrnull) From reading your “Why I’m not taking multivitamin” blog, I know the Vit A in there is not ideal but as for the rest, it seems ok? What do you think? He’s also taking Nordic Nature Omega 3 530 mg and I’m giving him topical Magnesium supplement in a lotion form of Magnesium chloride from Ancient Minerals (40 mg elemental Magnesium per 1ml/full pump press). Is this sufficient? Am I giving him too much supplement? With a toddler’s appetite, I just want to make sure he has all the nutrition his body needs. Thanks
2983
2984As for us adults, my husband and I just started taking InnovixLabs Full Spectrum Vitamin K2 with MK-7 and MK-4 with Nutrigold 5000 IU D3, 1 tablet each/a day, after we found out our Vit D level at our annual physical exam. Mine was 22 and his was only 10. He was also diagnosed with diabetes with A1C of 7.9. We’re currently changing our diet and start to exercise more in hope of lowering his A1C. Same question as above regarding Vit A and E but for adult. What is a minimum amount you suggest we take to cover days when we don’t eat well? I’m also adding your Omega 3 and Advanced Magnesium to our routine too. Just waiting for them to arrived.
2985
2986Sorry for the long reply/questions. From reading our your blog, you’re very informative and knowledgeable. I trust your recommendations. Thanks
2987
2988Reply
2989Vin Kutty
2990May 8, 2019 at 9:27 pm
2991Hi Minh – one drop a day of the liquid supplement should be fine. No risk with that level. As for A and E, it is, again, best to get from foods and it sounds like the diet is adequate to supply those nutrients. The Omega-3 dosage is fine. I am not sure how effective the topical Magnesium is – best to improve magnesium status with more vegetables.
2992
2993Nutrigold D3 is a good product. But it can take several months to get your D levels up where they need to be. The response is slow. Typically, if you’re severely deficient, it is OK to take 10,000 or 20,000 IU per day for a week or two then go down to 5000 daily. After 4-6 months, you should be able to go down to 3000 or 4000 IU per day, which is what most people require to stay in the 40-60 range. Also, taking D3 with a meal helps absorption.
2994
2995For adults, it is difficult to say how much you both need – you will need to work with a certified dietitian or nutritionist. Lately, I take 25,000 IU once or twice a week. Vitamin E is even more complicated – I take Jarrow FamilE two or three times a week.
2996
2997As for the high A1c, stop all sweets, juice, soda, beer and then reduce anything with grains or flour. Increase vegetables, seafood, healthy fats like olive oil and fish oil, a small amount of nuts and eggs. Limit eating to daylight hours – 8 to 12 hours. No eating 2-3 hours before bed. Combine that with vigorous exercise.
2998
2999Reply
3000Minh
3001May 9, 2019 at 3:05 pm
3002Thank you so much for your reply/suggestions. One last question. You’ve mentioned that Vit A and D can be stored in the body for long time use. So to minimize the number of pills my husband has to take (he doesn’t like taking pills), can I buy the 25,000 IU Vitamin D (Thorne makes one) and have him take it daily for a week or two then goes down to once a week only?
3003
3004Also, I’m planning to take the Jarrow B right complex which has 400 mcg of folate. I’m not planning to get pregnant yet, not until next year, so is the amount good for general? Can my husband also take it? Thanks.
3005
3006Reply
3007Vin Kutty
3008May 9, 2019 at 11:16 pm
3009Hi Minh – if you want to have your husband take 25,000 IU daily for a week and then down to once a week, it’d be better if you alerted his doctor and proceeded with the doctor’s oversight. It would also be better if you knew his CURRENT level. Remember that D3 is a hormone and should be handled with care. It is somewhat mislabeled as a Vitamin. While your plan should be safe, it might help if I shared my own experience: under my doctor’s supervision, I took 20,000 IU daily for two weeks to see what would happen. Of course, I started with blood level around 40 or 50. After two weeks of that, I stopped sleeping. My body simply could not sleep. That lasted a week and it was no fun. My doctor told me that I was in the 1% of the population that responds this way. Will your husband have a similar response? I don’t know. That is why it is best to get D3 from the sun. Next safest way is to take 3000 to 5000 IU per day on a daily basis. Short cuts work for a lot of people, but there is a higher chance of some unknown side effect.
3010
3011Yes, both of you can take Jarrow B-Right. I don’t take it daily…may be two or three times a week, on days when I don’t eat eggs, liver, or meat.
3012
3013Reply
3014Martin
3015August 5, 2019 at 6:49 am
3016Great information on your Site about Vit K. Much Appreciated.
3017
3018Been taking K2 for years, but have recently switched supplier to NOW, and purchased ‘both’ their MK7 and MK4 with the idea of taking each 100mcg Capsule on alternate days. Am now thinking about switching to your brand.
3019
3020However, two nagging points.
3021
3022The formulation of my previous supplier of MK7, included Medium Chain Triglycerides, whereas my new supplier (NOW) does not. I’m therefore wondering if the presence of added Medium Chain Triglycerides is critical (to prevent the MK7 from deteriorating in the capsule before its consumed) OR if its presence signifies that the type of K2 is NOT the more desirable Trans Form?
3023
3024Does your own brand include Medium Chain Triglycerides, if so why – and – if not – why not?
3025
3026I don’t except you to comment on the NOW brand (though if you can, that’s great) but wondered if you can through any light on why Medium Chain Triglycerides are present in one Formula I was using, but not in the new one I’ve switched to?
3027
3028Also, I like to purchase using PayPal. Can your brand be purchased using Paypal, direct from you? Do you also sell through iHerb?
3029
3030Reply
3031Vin Kutty
3032August 5, 2019 at 12:38 pm
3033Hi Martin, the presence of medium chain triglycerides (MCT) has no significance. Since Vitamin K2 is a fat-soluble vitamin, it is usually dispersed in an oil. Usually it is MCT or olive oil, or sometimes just coconut oil. In other words, it is a carrier and has no impact on the Vitamin K2.
3034
3035Yes, the product can be purchased using PayPal, from http://www.innovixlabs.com. The product will be available on iHerb soon, but we don’t know starting when.
3036
3037Reply
3038Matt
3039October 3, 2019 at 3:14 am
3040Very informative article – thank you!! I’ve recently begun looking into getting more K2 into my son’s diet. He just turned 2. He’s a very picky eater so I would like to supplement. He won’t swallow a pill. Might I be able to break open your capsule and use a dropper to administer it to him? Thanks!
3041
3042Reply
3043Vin Kutty
3044October 4, 2019 at 12:46 am
3045Hi Matt – you could…but it’s a lot of work and the oil is going to likely squirt across the room if you apply a bit too much pressure. If you’re OK with those this issues, then, yes. But a liquid K2 item from Thorne may work well too, but it’s all MK-4 and no MK-7.
3046
3047Reply
3048Matt
3049October 3, 2019 at 3:24 am
3050I would be very interested in hearing your thoughts on consuming Australian Emu oil.
3051
3052Reply
3053Vin Kutty
3054October 4, 2019 at 12:47 am
3055Hi Matt – it’s got a teeny bit of K2. Not enough to justify the hype, at least in some circles.
3056
3057Reply
3058Daniel Jankowski
3059October 9, 2019 at 9:16 am
3060Hi, I’m afraid you’ve got an error in your article.
3061You say that Japanese in general consume 230ug of MK-7 per daty, however, the study you refer to, says that Japanese women (n=125) consume 230ug/d of vitamin K (including PK, MK-4 and MK-7) in total. They estimated the amount of MK-7 to be only 57.4ug/d.
3062Otherwise, really interesting and informative article.
3063Thank you!
3064Daniel
3065
3066Reply
3067Vin Kutty
3068October 10, 2019 at 6:44 pm
3069Thank you, Daniel, for the correction. Your point underscores mine: dietary MK-7 consumption is typically much lower than MK-4 in the cuisines of most cultures. Japan is an exception because of their high Natto consumption. Natto consumption is not even across all of Japan, as part of the country consume more than the rest. MK-4 traditionally has been the primary form of K2 in our diets.
3070
3071Reply
3072bill testa
3073October 27, 2019 at 6:11 pm
3074I’ve got a high calcium score and cholesterol and have been researching k2 for weeks and found some good articles but yours was by far the most comprehensive and informative. Thanks. Ordered the Full spectrum k-2 as well.
3075
3076Reply
3077Vin Kutty
3078October 28, 2019 at 7:49 pm
3079Thanks for your trust, Bill. Keep us posted on how you do. We’ve had a few customers contact us about lowered calcium scores, but we’d love to hear from more of you. Make sure you are topped up on Magnesium and Vitamin D3. One thing is clear though…this seems to be a very slow process. I would not expect much change if you go back to get your calcium score in 2 or 3 months.
3080
3081For what it’s worth, studies on arterial stiffness (connected to calcium score) are trending towards higher dosages. Studies have used 100 mcg in the past, but since most are industry funded and sponsored, there is self-interest in increasing dosage. So, now, studies are using 180 mcg and even 360 mcg MK-7 per day. A lot of the science is sponsored by a company called NattoPharma, an MK-7 intellectual property owner. As far as we know, there is no risk to taking 180 or 360 mcg of MK-7. If higher doses are shown to work and lower doses are never explored, we will never know the lowest dose at which MK-7 is effective. Kinda sneaky if you ask me, but that’s how research has been going lately.
3082
3083Reply
3084Jenny
3085November 12, 2019 at 7:10 pm
3086I came across this site when researching on best form of K2 and have gotten some eye-opening info. Thank you! I am curious about the estrogenic effects of these K2 supplements. I used to consume natto routinely as part of my diet, but have stopped due to estrogen concerns. Do supplements derived from natto still carry these potential estrogenic properties, or are they pretty much reduced to just the vitamin content?
3087
3088Reply
3089Vin Kutty
3090November 12, 2019 at 10:50 pm
3091Hi Jenny – K2 is said to modulate estrogen activity. Specifically, it can be a weak estrogen inhibitor by binding some estrogen receptors, thereby lowering the estradiol:estrone ratio. Some of this effect is attributed to K1 too. Now, I must admit…this is theoretical stuff and there isn’t a lot of data to go off. So, I don’t know if this could help improve bone density.
3092
3093However, I suspect that the ‘estrogen concern’ that you are referring to is a soy phytoestrogen related issue. K2 supplements are not really derived from Natto, even if the manufacturer says so. Soy-derived K2 starts with soy protein as the raw material. Soy protein has very low phytoestrogen content and by the time this is fermented and the K2 isolated, you have virtually zero phytoestrogens. We don’t sell soy-derived K2, but even if we did, I’d say there is no issue with soy-derived K2 supplements.
3094
3095Reply
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