bTZZ3pgJ

1Nov 06 07:55:17 <Fulvus>	The fuck does this mean? https://wikileaks.org/dnc-emails/emailid/7036
2Nov 06 07:55:19 <_>	[ WikiLeaks - Search the DNC email database ] - wikileaks.org
3Nov 06 07:58:41 <VereorNox>	Probably something lewd.
4Nov 06 08:00:43 <Fulvus>	It seems pretty blatant that "lollipop" is a euphamism for something, the guy even put it in quotations himself all cheekily. This email is disturbing.
5Nov 06 08:02:17 *	EllardyAway (uid178344@charlton.irccloud.com) has joined
6Nov 06 08:02:38 <Brut>	The guy is a woman
7Nov 06 08:05:16 <Fulvus>	My mistake, didn't parse Leah as a female name for some reason. The explanation I found is that they just call lollipops rehearsed speeches for media outlets, but it doesn't make sense that they'd mention bringing it home. That's bizarre.
8Nov 06 08:08:11 <Hierophant>	I don't think it's ethical to read the emails that people send between each other
9Nov 06 08:10:17 <Fulvus>	They're leaked. They aren't going to be unleaked.
10Nov 06 08:10:38 <Hierophant>	That doesn't mean people should read them
11Nov 06 08:10:55 <Hierophant>	If your sister leaves her diary lying on the table you shouldn't go and peek just because it's out in the open
12Nov 06 08:12:04 <Fulvus>	It's not ethical to spy through the window of someone's house either, but if the curtains are open and there's a murder going on you wouldn't say it should be ignored for being none of your business.
13Nov 06 08:12:37 <Hierophant>	except there's no murder going on
14Nov 06 08:12:48 <Hierophant>	and if there was it's not your responsibility to stand there and gawk, call the police and let them handle it
15Nov 06 08:13:09 <Fulvus>	If something is already open knowledge, willful ignorance is not the "ethical" choice. It's simply the willful ignorant choice.
16Nov 06 08:13:23 <Hierophant>	The FBI is already looking into everything, no idea why jane and joe busybody feel they have to as well
17Nov 06 08:13:38 <VereorNox>	Because people want more transparency in politics?
18Nov 06 08:13:49 <Hierophant>	transparency is bad, I'll explain why after my game
19Nov 06 08:13:58 <Brut>	Doesn't matter, people will look through them, they'll find nothing to convict her with, Wikileaks will have looked like a bunch of tools
20Nov 06 08:14:06 <Brut>	Just give it a few months
21Nov 06 08:14:30 <Fulvus>	Wikileaks is not a political organization, Brut. They do not have a stance on the election.
22Nov 06 08:14:44 <Brut>	I really doubt that
23Nov 06 08:15:04 <Fulvus>	They're not "tools" for publishing truthful information without even making a judgement on them.
24Nov 06 08:16:04 <Fulvus>	Since when did divulging info become a reason to call someone a fucking tool? Just because you don't like the facts? I understand saying people freaking out about the emails is stupid, but Wikileaks is in no way to blame for simply making info available.
25Nov 06 08:17:25 <Brut>	Because people have been acting like dropping a bunch of emails suddenly makes it certain that they're all damaging
26Nov 06 08:17:54 <VereorNox>	That's people, not wikileaks.
27Nov 06 08:18:37 <Fulvus>	The day someone simply publishing unbiased info gets labelled a "tool" is the day we have people so complacent and brainwashed that they'd prefer to just be kept in the dark. You're literally reacting with anger to the availablity of information.
28Nov 06 08:19:02 <Peng_>	Fulvus: Who do you believe has a right to privacy? And who doesn't?
29Nov 06 08:19:55 <Fulvus>	This isn't about the right to privacy. This is about whether or not we should ignore available information because it does not positively reinforce our politically beliefs.
30Nov 06 08:20:03 <Peng_>	This conversation would be entirely valid, but sound way worse, if y'all were talking about the celebrity nude photo hack.
31Nov 06 08:20:36 <Brut>	"Nothing to hide, nothing to fear" sounds a little fucked up to me
32Nov 06 08:21:12 <Fulvus>	I'll condemn the hacking of emails, that's wrong. But once they're out there, they're fucking out there. Don't make this about the patriot act or some shit because that'd be easier to argue against, please.
33Nov 06 08:22:48 <Peng_>	Zeynep Tufekci just wrote something in the New York Times on this subject, but i haven't read it
34Nov 06 08:23:45 <Brut>	http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/05/opinion/what-were-missing-while-we-obsess-over-john-podestas-email.html
35Nov 06 08:23:47 <Brut>	This one?
36Nov 06 08:24:40 *	Verlotorium (Verlotorium@net-lmtltp.res.rr.com) has left
37Nov 06 08:24:58 <Peng_>	Probably
38Nov 06 08:25:33 <Fulvus>	It is.
39Nov 06 08:30:50 *	Notify: Mishie is offline (Parahumans)
40Nov 06 08:30:50 *	Mishie has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
41Nov 06 08:31:41 <FossIsWorking>	hey peng what is with all those other pengs?
42Nov 06 08:33:41 <Fulvus>	I don't really respect her opinion very much as a Sociologist, mainly because she's a qualitiative researcher that doesn't even bother coming up with a two-sided argument for her positions. She does have a point, but it's a biased point with no data backing it up when there really should be data for this matter.
43Nov 06 08:33:44 <Peng>	FossIsWorking: Redundancy. :D
44Nov 06 08:34:21 <Peng_>	Fulvus: It's an opinion piece...
45Nov 06 08:34:53 <Fulvus>	She says there are negative outcomes that come from these kinds of leaks, which I may theoretically agree with, but she doesn't define what those outcomes are, and we can't verify what she means. All the article means is that she doesn't like something.
46Nov 06 08:35:39 <Brut>	But she did
47Nov 06 08:36:02 <Brut>	For example she said people in Middle Eastern countries have been outed as rape victims or gay
48Nov 06 08:36:11 <Brut>	As collateral damage of the leaks
49Nov 06 08:38:27 <Fulvus>	She's a Sociologist, Peng. I'm a Sociology major in college. Forgive me if I take the methods she uses a little too seriously because she represents my little branch.
50Nov 06 08:38:32 <FossIsWorking>	I now inflict adam ruins everything on you nerds
51Nov 06 08:38:37 <FossIsWorking>	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnslqy41qjg
52Nov 06 08:38:38 <_>	[ Adam Ruins Everything S01 Special The Adam Ruins Everything Election Special - YouTube ] - www.youtube.com
53Nov 06 08:39:31 <FossIsWorking>	and Fulvusis in the right here, electorate polarize!
54Nov 06 08:39:42 *	Notify: Mishie is online (Parahumans)
55Nov 06 08:40:48 <Brut>	What?
56Nov 06 08:41:35 <FossIsWorking>	making a joke
57Nov 06 08:41:40 *	Lexicon has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
58Nov 06 08:41:44 *	FossIsWorking is now known as FossilLord
59Nov 06 08:41:56 <FossilLord>	finaly done with work
60Nov 06 08:41:59 <Fulvus>	That's not a definition, Brut. That's just a cherry picked example of something most people wouldn't like, which wouldn't necessarily be a problem if it was two-sided argument instead of an opinion piece.
61Nov 06 08:42:03 <Hierophant>	Okay so I'm back
62Nov 06 08:42:20 <Hierophant>	basically transparency is bad because it sets a bad precedent if any idiot off the street can question and scrutinize the higher ups
63Nov 06 08:42:29 <Hierophant>	Fosters alck of turst
64Nov 06 08:43:02 <VereorNox>	What you're suggesting would mean blindly trusting. Two extremes. 
65Nov 06 08:43:24 <Fulvus>	I'm not even saying she's wrong on this, I just dislike Sociologists publishing biased and opinioninated info because that reflects poorly on the discipline, which should be impartial.
66Nov 06 08:43:25 *	PassedFaust shoves his head in the sand
67Nov 06 08:44:05 <Brut>	It's opinionated because she's giving her opinion.
68Nov 06 08:44:09 <Brut>	It's not a study
69Nov 06 08:44:10 <VereorNox>	People elected into high positions with control over major governmental offices should be held to a higher standard than others. If leaks, unethical or not, prove they are not, that lack of trust is not unfounded, it's what they deserve. 
70Nov 06 08:44:15 <VereorNox>	Yo PassedFaust 
71Nov 06 08:44:38 <Fulvus>	As for whether transparency is good or bad, it's not a binary. There are good and bad parts, but I'd argue that blind faith in the upper strata from the masses is much more dangerous than wanton skeppticism for a free society.
72Nov 06 08:44:39 *	Xepheria (Josiah@net-kt9tbh.range86-177.btcentralplus.com) has joined
73Nov 06 08:45:17 <Fulvus>	Guess what's also an opinion, Brut? Mine.
74Nov 06 08:45:18 <PassedFaust>	I'm sorry, I shouldn't be politicking drunk. Yo Vern. 
75Nov 06 08:45:34 <Brut>	I think Hiero is saying you have to have some qualification to be able to seriously criticize some of these decisions
76Nov 06 08:45:42 <Brut>	Beyond just having an opinion
77Nov 06 08:46:00 <PassedFaust>	I disagree, see movie critics
78Nov 06 08:46:02 <Hierophant>	Such as being the director of the FBI
79Nov 06 08:46:07 <Hierophant>	whose job it is to analyze the emails and stuff
80Nov 06 08:46:08 <Hierophant>	:P
81Nov 06 08:46:10 <Fulvus>	This isn't an argument, I'm just expressing that I don't like it because she represents my field of study poorly. Going back to transparency, again, it's not a binary.
82Nov 06 08:46:14 <Hierophant>	Leave it to him instead of poiking your own nose into it
83Nov 06 08:46:47 <Brut>	I wouldn't even leave it to him, given his behaviour 
84Nov 06 08:46:56 <Brut>	He's shown himself to be partisan
85Nov 06 08:47:01 <VereorNox>	^
86Nov 06 08:47:03 <Hierophant>	Him & his agents
87Nov 06 08:47:42 <Fulvus>	If things aren't transparent to some degree, people with qualifications ALSO can't get access to it. *OR* the only people who are qualified to review the information are people designated with approval, which reinforces the notion that the only people with access to the info are people who are motivated to keep dirt hidden.
88Nov 06 08:48:01 <Fulvus>	Which does not a free society make.
89Nov 06 08:48:39 <Hierophant>	I have no interest in a free society
90Nov 06 08:48:40 <Hierophant>	at all
91Nov 06 08:48:43 <Hierophant>	not the way you mean it
92Nov 06 08:48:57 <Hierophant>	I want a society that lives in harmony, structure and trust
93Nov 06 08:49:22 <Brut>	Well I mean, most of us do
94Nov 06 08:49:25 <Hierophant>	Like, a society that has people randomly grabbing and spilling secrets and just acting like they know shit
95Nov 06 08:49:28 <Hierophant>	is not a society I want to live in
96Nov 06 08:49:41 <VereorNox>	Define harmony, structure and trust.
97Nov 06 08:49:55 <VereorNox>	Because co-existence between two political sides is unlikely, so begone harmony.
98Nov 06 08:50:14 <VereorNox>	Agreement with either side of the spectrum just because they're currently the ruling party does not make a harmonious society.
99Nov 06 08:50:14 <Brut>	Two political sides was a mistake
100Nov 06 08:50:19 <VereorNox>	And trust is something to be earned.
101Nov 06 08:50:23 <Hierophant>	Yeah, just have one side
102Nov 06 08:50:28 <Fulvus>	You make it really hard not to just call you a fascist and be done with it, Hiero.
103Nov 06 08:50:33 <Brut>	That's not what I meant Hiero...
104Nov 06 08:50:37 <VereorNox>	That's ridiculous, Brut, Hierophant.
105Nov 06 08:50:43 <Hierophant>	And you make it realy hard not to just call you an anarchist :\
106Nov 06 08:50:46 <VereorNox>	Who do you decide is the 'right' side?
107Nov 06 08:50:53 <Brut>	I'm not agreeing with Hiero, Vern
108Nov 06 08:51:00 <Hierophant>	the liberals
109Nov 06 08:51:04 <Hierophant>	we know trump isn't right
110Nov 06 08:51:04 <Brut>	I was going to say they're should be more sides
111Nov 06 08:51:09 <Fulvus>	Well, I don't support the two party system either, but I sure as fuck don't agree with a one party system. That's even worse.
112Nov 06 08:51:10 <Brut>	*there
113Nov 06 08:51:11 <VereorNox>	This isn't about the US, Hierophant
114Nov 06 08:51:11 <Hierophant>	That just causes more fracturing brute
115Nov 06 08:51:17 <VereorNox>	This is about society in general
116Nov 06 08:51:22 <Brut>	Is it Hiero?
117Nov 06 08:51:28 <Brut>	We have several large parties in Canada
118Nov 06 08:51:30 <VereorNox>	See, the conservatives would disagree with you, Hierophant
119Nov 06 08:51:34 <Brut>	As do many other countries
120Nov 06 08:51:36 <VereorNox>	"The liberals are the wrong side"
121Nov 06 08:51:42 <VereorNox>	Welcome to fractioned unharminous politics.
122Nov 06 08:51:47 <VereorNox>	Because people disagree, and guess what
123Nov 06 08:51:51 *	Divock has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client)
124Nov 06 08:51:52 <VereorNox>	People have the right to disagree
125Nov 06 08:52:02 <Hierophant>	well, I agree with that
126Nov 06 08:52:06 <Brut>	We have four major parties
127Nov 06 08:52:09 <Hierophant>	But the way I see it is that the liberals should just win and be done with it
128Nov 06 08:52:12 <VereorNox>	If we only had one side, there would be no right to disagree
129Nov 06 08:52:15 <VereorNox>	You couldn't elect the lesser evil
130Nov 06 08:52:19 <VereorNox>	I repeat, Hierophant 
131Nov 06 08:52:20 <Brut>	Middle right, middle left, more left, farther left
132Nov 06 08:52:21 <PassedFaust>	Hierophant: I disagree 
133Nov 06 08:52:24 <VereorNox>	This is. not. About. The. US.
134Nov 06 08:52:32 <VereorNox>	This is about society in general. Every country, no matter which.
135Nov 06 08:52:40 <Hierophant>	Right, I get what you're talking about.
136Nov 06 08:52:50 <Hierophant>	What I mean is that what use do you see in the existence of political parties you know are wrong
137Nov 06 08:53:00 <PassedFaust>	I disagree
138Nov 06 08:53:06 <VereorNox>	If there's a democracy, people should have the right to choose, who are you to demand only one party is the correct one? You're not qualified to make that assumption.
139Nov 06 08:53:15 <Brut>	And Hiero, there may come a time where I actually agree with a Republican candidate
140Nov 06 08:53:21 <Hierophant>	I'm not demanding anything
141Nov 06 08:53:24 <Hierophant>	i'm just saying what I think is right
142Nov 06 08:53:27 <Brut>	I don't think that possibility should be removed
143Nov 06 08:53:38 <Brut>	I just think the current one is a mistake
144Nov 06 08:53:46 <VereorNox>	You're not qualified to decide which party is wrong.
145Nov 06 08:53:49 <Brut>	Of monumentally stupid proportions
146Nov 06 08:54:07 <Hierophant>	Vern, you're interpreting this wrongly
147Nov 06 08:54:13 <Hierophant>	I'm saying what I think should be, not what I think is
148Nov 06 08:54:13 <PassedFaust>	I disagree
149Nov 06 08:54:34 <VereorNox>	And I'm saying I disagree with your thinking.
150Nov 06 08:54:34 <Hierophant>	I'm qualified to decide which party I personally think is wrong
151Nov 06 08:54:42 <PassedFaust>	Sure
152Nov 06 08:54:45 <Brut>	And Hiero, I think you may have a different view on this based on where you live
153Nov 06 08:54:47 <Fulvus>	I'm typing some long posts and then deleting them because the conversation pace is leaving me behind, so I'm just going to cop out and say I agree with Vereor 100%.
154Nov 06 08:54:55 <PassedFaust>	Same
155Nov 06 08:54:57 <VereorNox>	For example
156Nov 06 08:54:58 <Brut>	You know, where you can be executed for drug possession
157Nov 06 08:54:58 <VereorNox>	Look at Germany
158Nov 06 08:55:04 <VereorNox>	We have a shitload of parties
159Nov 06 08:55:11 <VereorNox>	Only two of them are right-wing, one of them extremist
160Nov 06 08:55:19 <VereorNox>	Well, two major ones
161Nov 06 08:55:24 <Hierophant>	Right, you hate the extremist party, right?
162Nov 06 08:55:28 <Hierophant>	Why not just get rid of them then?
163Nov 06 08:55:30 <VereorNox>	No I don't.
164Nov 06 08:55:36 <Hierophant>	It may be hard to actually do it, but they *should* disappear
165Nov 06 08:55:38 <Hierophant>	is what I'm saying
166Nov 06 08:55:40 <Brut>	Because some people want them
167Nov 06 08:55:40 <VereorNox>	I repeat, people have the right to choose.
168Nov 06 08:55:41 <Brut>	Hiero
169Nov 06 08:55:42 <Fulvus>	Who gets rid of them, Hiero?
170Nov 06 08:55:48 <Hierophant>	The other side, of coures.
171Nov 06 08:55:53 <PassedFaust>	Let's get rid of them, in camps
172Nov 06 08:55:54 <VereorNox>	The extremist party has been under scrutiny by the courts repeatedly
173Nov 06 08:56:02 <Brut>	You can't just tell people they're not aloud to have representatives 
174Nov 06 08:56:02 <VereorNox>	In multiple attempts to prove them unconstitutional
175Nov 06 08:56:03 <PassedFaust>	I hear that works
176Nov 06 08:56:04 <Hierophant>	Which is good! That's a sign of goodness.
177Nov 06 08:56:17 <VereorNox>	And guess what, in a free society, a party which does not comform with your views is not inherently unconstitutional.
178Nov 06 08:56:18 <Brut>	*allowed
179Nov 06 08:56:39 <Hierophant>	Right so I'm watching a stream and I'll come back to this later, it's hard to split my attention and I don't want to sound like I'm just fucking around or not taking this seriousyl
180Nov 06 08:56:54 <Brut>	Hiero, I don't think you understand
181Nov 06 08:56:59 <PassedFaust>	Political dissenters not conforming to the right opinion should be eliminated, I get you Hiero
182Nov 06 08:57:00 <Fulvus>	The only answer is "the government lead by the incumbent party" if you want it to make sense. Which QUICKLY devolves into suppressive dystopia, because that party is no longer incentivized to change, and it's also incentivized to crack down on dissent, as it's already set precedent for doing so.
183Nov 06 08:57:14 <Brut>	There needs to be more than one party, to keep the ruling one in check
184Nov 06 08:57:20 <Hierophant>	I trust the incumbent party not to turn into 1984 tbqh
185Nov 06 08:57:27 <Hierophant>	This is what I meant by having trust in the higher ups
186Nov 06 08:57:28 <Brut>	That's a bit too much trust
187Nov 06 08:57:31 <Hierophant>	The party can check itself?
188Nov 06 08:57:33 <Fulvus>	Way too much.
189Nov 06 08:58:01 <Hierophant>	I don't know, I don't like this cynical attitude where you assume everything other than perfect freedom is going to end in utter dystopia
190Nov 06 08:58:14 <Hierophant>	I'd like to think people are smart and good enough not to go overboard with stuff
191Nov 06 08:58:17 <Brut>	Has it worked yet?
192Nov 06 08:58:25 <Fulvus>	And no, groups don't do that by default. Groups reinforce. And you're advocating that people with dissident opinions literally not be allowed to run for office or garner support, so they seriously have no chance of evolving.
193Nov 06 08:58:28 <VereorNox>	This is neither cynism, nor is it what we said.
194Nov 06 08:58:47 <VereorNox>	I hold it true that people have the right to choose and to make mistakes.
195Nov 06 08:58:58 <VereorNox>	I do not hold it true that I, or anyone, has the right to decide who chooses right 
196Nov 06 08:59:18 <Brut>	Hiero, I despise the morons of the Republican party has much as the next liberal
197Nov 06 08:59:22 <Hierophant>	right
198Nov 06 08:59:32 <Brut>	But if they don't have a voice, that is not a government I would like to be part of
199Nov 06 08:59:34 <PassedFaust>	I don't know, I don't like this cynical attitude where you assume everything other than perfect control is going to end in utter dystopia
200Nov 06 09:00:01 <Fulvus>	There are some things that are NOT bianry (Whether or not transparency is good or bad.) and there are some things that are binary (Whether or not a one-party state would be hazardous to liberty.)
201Nov 06 09:00:18 <Hierophant>	PassedFaust: I never said anything about a dystopia
202Nov 06 09:00:27 <Hierophant>	But I do think perfect control would be a utopia, so of course I'd support it.
203Nov 06 09:00:27 <VereorNox>	[Nov 06 08:58:01] <Hierophant> I don't know, I don't like this cynical attitude where you assume everything other than perfect freedom is going to end in utter dystopia
204Nov 06 09:01:01 <Brut>	I don't know if you've read up on some "perfect controllers" of the last few millenia
205Nov 06 09:01:13 <PassedFaust>	I loved Mussolini 
206Nov 06 09:01:14 <Brut>	They also call those "tyrants"
207Nov 06 09:01:14 <Hierophant>	*with the caveat that the perfect controller isn't a fucking asshole
208Nov 06 09:01:28 <VereorNox>	Power corrupts.
209Nov 06 09:01:32 <VereorNox>	Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
210Nov 06 09:01:39 <VereorNox>	There is a reason we have term limits.
211Nov 06 09:01:43 <PassedFaust>	Lenin was pretty brotier 
212Nov 06 09:01:56 <Hierophant>	See, I don't agree with this. I think that there are people who are good and pure enough that they won't get corrupted.
213Nov 06 09:02:05 <Hierophant>	And for those people, it's trivial to just put them into power more or less forever
214Nov 06 09:02:09 <Brut>	And then Lenin died and his pal took over
215Nov 06 09:02:27 <Hierophant>	And like being better than Lenin or Stalin isn't exactly a high standard?
216Nov 06 09:02:33 <VereorNox>	Politics isn't about an extreme of goodness and good decisions, Hierophant
217Nov 06 09:02:42 <VereorNox>	Politics is about sacrifices and middlegrounds.
218Nov 06 09:02:57 <Brut>	How does forever work, Hiero?
219Nov 06 09:03:05 <Hierophant>	I disagree, Vern.
220Nov 06 09:03:13 <Hierophant>	Brut: I mean until the end of their life, the word was hyperbole
221Nov 06 09:03:18 <VereorNox>	People thought their ideal of goodness and perfect rulers was the king for a few hundred years
222Nov 06 09:03:22 <VereorNox>	Then people began cutting their heads off
223Nov 06 09:03:35 <VereorNox>	You know, the absolute monarch who was given his grace by god.
224Nov 06 09:03:40 <Hierophant>	The monarchy system is far from good and perfect
225Nov 06 09:03:41 <Hierophant>	:P
226Nov 06 09:03:43 <Fulvus>	being better than Stalin isn't hard, but a one party system is literally the only system in which people like Stalin can come to power and withhold power. You roll the dice with every leader, until eventually a bad egg is in power, and than nobody can do jack shit about it because their power is absolute.
227Nov 06 09:03:45 <Hierophant>	So it's weird to compare the two
228Nov 06 09:03:55 <PassedFaust>	Hierophant: Would you describe yourself as a fascist? Because that's what I'm getting
229Nov 06 09:04:01 <Brut>	Hiero, what is the government in Singapore?
230Nov 06 09:04:03 <Fulvus>	And because they have absolute power, nobody that disaggrees with them can take that power without a revolution.
231Nov 06 09:04:08 <VereorNox>	You're suggesting exactly that. One person who is absolute and perfect in every way (or so the perception goes), ruling until they die.
232Nov 06 09:04:21 <Hierophant>	Brut: What do you mean?
233Nov 06 09:04:34 <Hierophant>	Fulvus: You don't roll the dice, because each leader ensures the one afater him is good as well
234Nov 06 09:04:35 <Brut>	I'm guessing you have parties?
235Nov 06 09:04:38 <Hierophant>	That's one of the main responsibilities of the leader
236Nov 06 09:04:44 <Hierophant>	Not just in politics but in gneral
237Nov 06 09:05:07 <Fulvus>	That requires ZERO human fallibility to work, Hiero. Or else the trend will ALWAYS be downward.
238Nov 06 09:05:23 <Hierophant>	Brut: Yeah
239Nov 06 09:05:26 <Hierophant>	PAP is usually in power though
240Nov 06 09:05:30 <Hierophant>	they landslide every time
241Nov 06 09:07:47 <Hierophant>	Well, I agree with you on that, Fulvus.
242Nov 06 09:07:49 <Fulvus>	They also have nationalist rally's every year, caning is a lawful punishment, your speech laws are very strict (It's legal for them to purposefully inhibit political opposition.), the propaganda machine is in total control, and all citizens are required to serve a mandatory 2 years in the military.
243Nov 06 09:08:19 <Hierophant>	If we are to adopt my system, perfection is a requirement. Therefore, my system is the only system that would be applicable in a perfect world.
244Nov 06 09:08:19 <PassedFaust>	Kim Il Sung had some similar values. Have you studied his time as a leader? It's pretty enlightening.
245Nov 06 09:08:22 <Brut>	There's also the death sentence for drug possession 
246Nov 06 09:08:29 <Hierophant>	For something like a democracy, there's no way it would result in a utopia.
247Nov 06 09:08:55 <Hierophant>	Because one of the key values of democracy is to acknowledge human fallibility and it's designed around that
248Nov 06 09:09:54 <Hierophant>	So, while democracy is "an okay" system, there's no way we can reach the best possible world with something like democracy.
249Nov 06 09:10:01 <Hierophant>	It's not valid as an ideal.
250Nov 06 09:10:14 <Fulvus>	You have a multi-party system on paper, Hiero, but in practice it's a one-party system because the party in control has absolute power to censor dissent. Which is basically what you're advocating for, and in that context it makes perfect sense that you believe in that.
251Nov 06 09:10:24 <Fulvus>	But most people wouldn't be happy with that system.
252Nov 06 09:10:39 <PassedFaust>	Are you a fascist? I'm not saying that's bad, just curious.
253Nov 06 09:10:44 <Hierophant>	Well, I agree with what you just said Fulvus.
254Nov 06 09:10:52 <Hierophant>	PassedFaust: I'm not a fascist? I don't recommend killing dissidents
255Nov 06 09:11:02 <Hierophant>	That's what education is for :P
256Nov 06 09:11:03 <Brut>	You're at least an authoritarian 
257Nov 06 09:11:09 <PassedFaust>	But silencing them right?
258Nov 06 09:11:23 <Fulvus>	Unless they grew up consuming a steady stream of propaganda for that system (Not trying to ad hominem you here, but that's what it seems like is going on to me here.)
259Nov 06 09:11:54 <Hierophant>	Hmm, I would be fine saying that I'm an authoritarian. I believe that a healthy dose of authority and order is needed for a good society.
260Nov 06 09:12:00 <Brut>	Listen, I'm not naive enough to believe libertarianism is a realistic way of governing in the world we live in now
261Nov 06 09:12:13 <Brut>	But democracy is not something we should ever give up
262Nov 06 09:12:35 <Hierophant>	PassedFaust: No, not silencing them. I don't advocate tyranny.
263Nov 06 09:12:43 <Brut>	It is the lifeblood of the first world
264Nov 06 09:12:56 <PassedFaust>	Re-education? 
265Nov 06 09:13:04 <Hierophant>	I think that they should be corrected and *gently* educated as to why they're wrong.
266Nov 06 09:13:21 <Hierophant>	Order should not come at the expense of basic human decency
267Nov 06 09:13:26 <Brut>	That sounds like a constructed reality
268Nov 06 09:13:30 <Brut>	And it's kind of fucked
269Nov 06 09:13:36 <VereorNox>	Define wrong.
270Nov 06 09:13:38 <Fulvus>	Me and Brut are in accord on this. I'm a mega-libertarian fuck and we've had our differences (I'd argue that the only reason I seem so extreme is because I purposefully take an extreme stance in order to balance out what I perceive as a mostly liberal echo-chamber, but still.), but I'm on board with that 100%.
271Nov 06 09:13:46 <VereorNox>	because if you start 'correcting' people for your idea of 'wrongthink'
272Nov 06 09:13:56 <VereorNox>	Then welcome to tyranny 101, you didn't even realize you started.
273Nov 06 09:14:02 <Hierophant>	Well, yes, Brut, that's what politics is for. You construct an ideal reality to replace the current, flawed one
274Nov 06 09:14:18 <PassedFaust>	Reality is flawed
275Nov 06 09:14:25 <Hierophant>	Right, we agree on this.
276Nov 06 09:14:26 <PassedFaust>	Inherently
277Nov 06 09:14:36 <PassedFaust>	You can't fix it
278Nov 06 09:14:39 <Hierophant>	Therefore, it's good to create something ideal to "fix" reality. You catch my meaning?
279Nov 06 09:14:41 <Hierophant>	See, I think we can.
280Nov 06 09:14:49 <VereorNox>	People are flawed. People have the right to be flawed. People have the right to think something you disagree with without being sent to a correctional facility.
281Nov 06 09:14:53 <Brut>	You can't just say, "You're reality is flawed in my view, therefore we have to force you to accept ours"
282Nov 06 09:14:56 <Hierophant>	I don't see why we can't fix reality when we've been able to consistently improve it over the last thousands of years.
283Nov 06 09:14:59 <Brut>	That's not how debate works
284Nov 06 09:15:06 <Brut>	Or rational discussion
285Nov 06 09:15:19 <Brut>	*Your
286Nov 06 09:15:22 <VereorNox>	Who are you, or any political leader, to decide what a person is allowed to think as long as they don't break any basic human laws?
287Nov 06 09:15:38 <Hierophant>	I don't care what people think?
288Nov 06 09:15:48 <Hierophant>	People can diasgree with me as much as they like
289Nov 06 09:15:55 <Hierophant>	If they want to go on IRC and rant about how the liberals suck, that's fine by me.
290Nov 06 09:16:03 <PassedFaust>	You're being very naive, if we could find a perfect system then it would have been done by someone smarter than us before
291Nov 06 09:16:04 <Brut>	I'm a fucking liberal dude
292Nov 06 09:16:05 <Hierophant>	I don't advocate tyranny, Iv'e said this.
293Nov 06 09:16:13 <VereorNox>	You advocate fixing people's wrong thinking!
294Nov 06 09:16:18 <Hierophant>	Of course I'm being naive! You *must* be naive in order to get the best system! 
295Nov 06 09:16:25 <Hierophant>	brb
296Nov 06 09:20:02 <Fulvus>	Anyway, AI over-consciousness mandate best government.
297Nov 06 09:20:02 <PassedFaust>	I'm saying you're massively overestimating just how revolutionary your ideas are, have you read the Communist Manifesto, any of the works of John Locke, or The Prince? That may give you some perspective on differing systems.
298Nov 06 09:20:17 <PassedFaust>	Nothing is truly untried
299Nov 06 09:20:57 <Hierophant>	My ideas are far from revolutionary.
300Nov 06 09:21:05 <Hierophant>	I'm literally just parroting what other people are saying about trust, honor etc.
301Nov 06 09:21:38 <VereorNox>	People aren't arguing liberals suck, Hierophant
302Nov 06 09:21:41 <Hierophant>	I'm sure someone out there has tried my system - but just because they fail doesn't mean it's a bad system. It just means we have to do it better next time.
303Nov 06 09:21:43 <VereorNox>	I voted for the Left party last election
304Nov 06 09:21:47 <VereorNox>	Brut is liberal
305Nov 06 09:21:54 <Hierophant>	Right, we all agree that liberalism is good, right?
306Nov 06 09:21:58 <VereorNox>	No.
307Nov 06 09:22:00 <Fulvus>	No.
308Nov 06 09:22:02 <PassedFaust>	Not entirely
309Nov 06 09:22:02 <VereorNox>	Not all liberalism is good.
310Nov 06 09:22:02 <Hierophant>	????
311Nov 06 09:22:16 <Hierophant>	So you only support like some liberal ideas but not all of them?
312Nov 06 09:22:23 <PassedFaust>	Yes
313Nov 06 09:22:25 <Fulvus>	Yeah.
314Nov 06 09:22:29 <Brut>	Hiero, the point of having more than one party is so you can shift gears when necessary
315Nov 06 09:22:39 <PassedFaust>	That's how opinions work
316Nov 06 09:22:43 <VereorNox>	^
317Nov 06 09:22:47 <Hierophant>	What's the point of supporting the liberals then?
318Nov 06 09:22:48 <Brut>	When it's the right time, you vote a certain party
319Nov 06 09:22:52 <VereorNox>	I agree with our right-wing parties
320Nov 06 09:22:54 <VereorNox>	On the Euro
321Nov 06 09:22:57 <Hierophant>	Isn't that kind of wishy washy?
322Nov 06 09:23:06 <PassedFaust>	Because they agree with more of their policies
323Nov 06 09:23:10 <VereorNox>	Which is "The EU is pretty good, but the german mark was a better time"
324Nov 06 09:23:12 <PassedFaust>	Not all of them
325Nov 06 09:23:38 <VereorNox>	Meanwhile our left parties are all for lowering rents in cities so they remain affordable, but want to keep the Euro as it is
326Nov 06 09:23:58 <PassedFaust>	I agree with more of the conservative platform currently, so I support them as of now
327Nov 06 09:24:18 <Brut>	The biggest problem most have with the right, especially in the states, is the inclusion of all the religious baggage
328Nov 06 09:24:20 <PassedFaust>	You aren't choosing sides on a war
329Nov 06 09:24:31 <Hierophant>	But conservatives are going to continue supporting the same ideas, so you're never going to vote for the elft, Faust.
330Nov 06 09:24:41 <PassedFaust>	Not true at all
331Nov 06 09:24:51 <Fulvus>	I voted straight ticket democrat with the exception of Trump for president. Why? I tend to side liberal, BELIEVE IT OR NOT, I'm just skeptical of Hillary, straight up not believing she's in any way an ethical choice to the point I had to suck up my pride and do with the other guy.
332Nov 06 09:24:53 <Hierophant>	The way I see it is you should just pick the best people and vote them in
333Nov 06 09:24:57 <Fulvus>	I couldn't have done that under your system.
334Nov 06 09:25:02 <PassedFaust>	Parties change
335Nov 06 09:25:18 <PassedFaust>	The left of the past is the right of yoday
336Nov 06 09:25:25 <PassedFaust>	*today
337Nov 06 09:25:28 <Hierophant>	Fulvus: But I support Hillary, so isn't it obvious that I'd want to force you to vote for Hillary? Just like you'd prefer it if I voted Trump, right?
338Nov 06 09:25:41 <Fulvus>	I wouldn't prefer you voted Trump.
339Nov 06 09:25:47 <PassedFaust>	No, because we're not assholes
340Nov 06 09:25:51 <Hierophant>	But you support Trump for president??
341Nov 06 09:25:56 <Fulvus>	No.
342Nov 06 09:25:59 <Hierophant>	Wait, so do you prefer Trump or Hillary as president?
343Nov 06 09:26:03 <PassedFaust>	We respect choice
344Nov 06 09:26:37 <Hierophant>	Well, that's the thing. I'm not a big fan of choice, free will and all that. I just don't see why they're necessary, to a certain extent?
345Nov 06 09:26:40 <Brut>	Listen Hiero, I think Trump as president would be horrific. But if he's in, he's in
346Nov 06 09:26:45 <Brut>	It's the will of the people
347Nov 06 09:26:53 <Hierophant>	And what if the will of the people leads to bad things happening?
348Nov 06 09:27:02 <Fulvus>	I just think he's less bad than Hillary, and I make that deduction from a purely moral standpoint, I've accepted the fact that I do actually think Hillary would be better POTUS, I just won't support corruption even if it's effective.
349Nov 06 09:27:14 <PassedFaust>	Then it's our collective lot
350Nov 06 09:27:23 <PassedFaust>	And we chose this
351Nov 06 09:27:44 <Hierophant>	Well, I don't support wallowing and letting horrible things happen just because it's the will of the people! I think we should do the right thing, even if nobody wants it.
352Nov 06 09:27:46 <Fulvus>	I dislike Trump AND Hillary, my personal values only barely tipped the scale one way, so I wouldn't force anyone to do anything, besides maybe confront the fact that Hillary isn't a good person.
353Nov 06 09:28:20 <Brut>	People always think they're doing the right thing
354Nov 06 09:28:26 <VereorNox>	^
355Nov 06 09:28:26 <Fulvus>	Even then, force is WAY too strong word.
356Nov 06 09:28:57 <VereorNox>	Let's rewind for a bit
357Nov 06 09:29:06 <VereorNox>	I think most people agree that Trump is a horrible person, Hierophant
358Nov 06 09:29:12 <VereorNox>	From the way he presents himself to everything he says
359Nov 06 09:29:35 <Hierophant>	Right. So why should we accept a horrible person as president just because he gets the majority vote? That's ridiculous, isn't it?
360Nov 06 09:29:39 <VereorNox>	Full stop
361Nov 06 09:29:42 <VereorNox>	Let me finish
362Nov 06 09:29:49 <Hierophant>	Alright.
363Nov 06 09:29:50 <VereorNox>	Now let's say the candidate was Jeb Bush.
364Nov 06 09:29:58 <VereorNox>	But the republican party is the republican party, you know?
365Nov 06 09:30:02 <Hierophant>	Mhm.
366Nov 06 09:30:21 <VereorNox>	So their views are more conservative, they don't support gay marriage etc. etc.
367Nov 06 09:30:51 <VereorNox>	You would still disagree with their opinion, but would you'd not argue against Jeb Bush like you'd against Trump, right?
368Nov 06 09:31:04 <Hierophant>	Yeah, Jeb has different policies.
369Nov 06 09:31:13 <VereorNox>	Democracy can be about choosing the lesser evil (in your mind).
370Nov 06 09:31:28 <Hierophant>	I get that.
371Nov 06 09:31:30 <VereorNox>	Only for liberals
372Nov 06 09:31:32 <VereorNox>	Well most liberals
373Nov 06 09:31:37 <VereorNox>	The lesser evil is always a liberal candidate
374Nov 06 09:31:47 <VereorNox>	While for conservatives, it's the opposite.
375Nov 06 09:31:52 *	Xtree has quit (Connection closed)
376Nov 06 09:32:41 <VereorNox>	Nobody's arguing nazis will ride on dinosaurs in a rain of blood when gay people get married. People are holding their own values. People are allowed to hold their own values. People are allowed to announce their own values, be judged for them, and be elected for them.
377Nov 06 09:33:15 <VereorNox>	And if the majority of people holds the values that Trump do
378Nov 06 09:33:54 <VereorNox>	Then that's allowed.
379Nov 06 09:34:26 <Brut>	If he sucks (which is likely) he gets booted early or they dump him in four years
380Nov 06 09:34:34 <Brut>	And life goes on
381Nov 06 09:34:35 *	Notify: Mishie is offline (Parahumans)
382Nov 06 09:34:36 <VereorNox>	Honestly I doubt that even Clinton is gonna see a second term.
383Nov 06 09:34:58 <Fulvus>	^ I think Hillary is going to win, I want to see her impeached and for her running mate to take it.
384Nov 06 09:35:01 <VereorNox>	She's incredibly unappealing, she's just more appealing than Trump.
385Nov 06 09:35:08 <Brut>	Heh, I like Kaine
386Nov 06 09:35:13 <Brut>	WOuldn't even be mad
387Nov 06 09:35:16 <Brut>	*Wouldn't
388Nov 06 09:35:30 <Fulvus>	I found Trump more appealing than Clinton, and I find that horrific.
389Nov 06 09:35:52 <VereorNox>	That's fair.
390Nov 06 09:35:53 <Hierophant>	" People are allowed to announce their own values, be judged for them, and be elected for them." <- I think that this statement holds true only if the values aren't bad or wrong
391Nov 06 09:36:05 <Hierophant>	Now, we can argue over what values are bad or wrong, but we agree completely that Trump is wrog.
392Nov 06 09:36:05 <PassedFaust>	Define that shit
393Nov 06 09:36:06 <Hierophant>	wrong*
394Nov 06 09:36:06 <VereorNox>	You don't get to decide which values are bad and wrong.
395Nov 06 09:36:18 <Fulvus>	Bruh, but "bad" and "wrong: are totally subjective.
396Nov 06 09:36:27 <Hierophant>	I don't. I have no power. If Trump gets elected, I can't do anything about it.
397Nov 06 09:36:27 <Brut>	Bad and wrong fifty years ago was being a socialist
398Nov 06 09:36:36 <Brut>	Well, it still is in the states, kind of
399Nov 06 09:36:43 <VereorNox>	You want to have power and decide what values are right and wrong
400Nov 06 09:36:46 <Brut>	But it was considered evil
401Nov 06 09:36:48 <VereorNox>	Become a high ranking politician
402Nov 06 09:36:49 <Brut>	Time's change
403Nov 06 09:36:59 <Hierophant>	But I can say "I think Trump is bad and wrong, and he should not be allowed to be president even if people vote for him"
404Nov 06 09:37:01 <Hierophant>	I can say that, right? o.o
405Nov 06 09:37:02 <VereorNox>	And go to war with Eurasia 
406Nov 06 09:37:04 <Brut>	You can
407Nov 06 09:37:19 <Hierophant>	Right, so what do you disagree with me on here?
408Nov 06 09:37:31 <Brut>	That anyone would take it seriously
409Nov 06 09:37:35 <VereorNox>	[Nov 06 09:35:53] <Hierophant> " People are allowed to announce their own values, be judged for them, and be elected for them." <- I think that this statement holds true only if the values aren't bad or wrong
410Nov 06 09:37:43 <VereorNox>	This statement you repeated throughout this discussion mostly.
411Nov 06 09:37:47 <Hierophant>	Okay, wait, to be clear
412Nov 06 09:37:56 <Fulvus>	I disagree, Brut. Bernie should have taken it, and he probably would have if the DNC didn't sabatage him and he actually got financial support (Which was impossible for him because he wasn't a corporate shill like Hillary.)
413Nov 06 09:38:02 <Hierophant>	you think that it's okay for a person that you personally consider bad to be president as long as he gets the will of the people?
414Nov 06 09:38:08 <PassedFaust>	Yep
415Nov 06 09:38:12 <VereorNox>	Absolutely.
416Nov 06 09:38:15 <Fulvus>	But Socialism is far from stigmatized anymore. Communism still is, but still.
417Nov 06 09:38:18 <Hierophant>	...what does "considering someone to be bad" even mean to you then?
418Nov 06 09:38:26 <PassedFaust>	By the people, for the people
419Nov 06 09:38:34 <Hierophant>	Isn't that like saying you're willing to let evil win?
420Nov 06 09:38:36 <VereorNox>	That's what democracy is about, Hierophant.
421Nov 06 09:38:42 <Brut>	Socialist is still considered an insult by the Republicans, Fulvus
422Nov 06 09:38:57 <Brut>	That says a lot about the states 
423Nov 06 09:39:21 <Hierophant>	Well, the way I would put it is this - I don't like evil winning, so I don't support democracy.
424Nov 06 09:39:30 <VereorNox>	Define evil.
425Nov 06 09:39:34 <VereorNox>	Hillary isn't a patron saint.
426Nov 06 09:39:35 *	Notify: Mishie is online (Parahumans)
427Nov 06 09:39:55 <Hierophant>	I agree.
428Nov 06 09:40:03 <Hierophant>	But she's not evil, and Trump is.
429Nov 06 09:40:03 <Fulvus>	Well I live in Houston, Texas, and it isn't unless you're in the real red woods. That's a stereotype built up the internet.
430Nov 06 09:40:13 <VereorNox>	I repeat, define evil.
431Nov 06 09:40:16 <Xepheria>	Evil is subjective lmao
432Nov 06 09:40:17 <Brut>	Well, I think Trump is an asshole
433Nov 06 09:40:20 <Brut>	He's not evil
434Nov 06 09:40:20 <Hierophant>	Whatever I consider to be bad, of course.
435Nov 06 09:40:23 <Fulvus>	Me too.
436Nov 06 09:40:27 <Hierophant>	Isn't that a tautology?
437Nov 06 09:40:31 <Brut>	No
438Nov 06 09:40:34 <Hierophant>	"Whatever Hierohpant thinks is evil is waht he defines to be evil."
439Nov 06 09:40:43 <Hierophant>	You can swap my name out for anyone else's and it would make sense.
440Nov 06 09:40:54 <Hierophant>	Everyone has their own opinion of what is right and wrong, and it only makes sense to fight for those beliefs.
441Nov 06 09:40:56 *	Mishie (Mibbit@net-1v1m4o.aarnet.net.au) has joined
442Nov 06 09:40:56 *	Tin_Mother gives channel operator status to Mishie
443Nov 06 09:40:58 <PassedFaust>	And it would make no sense
444Nov 06 09:41:07 <PassedFaust>	Stop saying evil and bad
445Nov 06 09:41:12 <Hierophant>	You wouldn't let someone win if you think they're wrong, just like Republicans would say that Hillary shouldn't be electd even if the majority votes her in.
446Nov 06 09:41:17 <Xepheria>	Painting the world in black and white
447Nov 06 09:41:18 <PassedFaust>	It means jack shit
448Nov 06 09:41:27 <Xepheria>	never helps anyone
449Nov 06 09:41:43 <VereorNox>	[Nov 06 09:40:34] <Hierophant> "Whatever Hierohpant thinks is evil is waht he defines to be evil."
450Nov 06 09:41:43 <VereorNox>	[Nov 06 09:40:43] <Hierophant> You can swap my name out for anyone else's and it would make sense.
451Nov 06 09:41:46 <VereorNox>	See the problem about this is
452Nov 06 09:41:57 <VereorNox>	That everyone's opinions 
453Nov 06 09:42:01 <VereorNox>	Clash or coalign
454Nov 06 09:42:03 <VereorNox>	Creating a divice
455Nov 06 09:42:06 <VereorNox>	And... oh shit
456Nov 06 09:42:07 <VereorNox>	Look at that
457Nov 06 09:42:10 <VereorNox>	We suddenly have two parties
458Nov 06 09:42:11 <Mishie>	wait
459Nov 06 09:42:12 <Mishie>	Vern
460Nov 06 09:42:18 <VereorNox>	With two different opinions of what right and wrong is!!!
461Nov 06 09:42:20 <Mishie>	Are you trying to imply that people don't always agree on things?
462Nov 06 09:42:25 <VereorNox>	I think so, Mishie 
463Nov 06 09:42:25 <Xepheria>	No mishie
464Nov 06 09:42:28 <Xepheria>	it's the intenet
465Nov 06 09:42:28 <VereorNox>	Radical thinking, I know
466Nov 06 09:42:30 <Xepheria>	*internet
467Nov 06 09:42:34 <Xepheria>	everyone always agrees
468Nov 06 09:42:39 <Mishie>	same
469Nov 06 09:42:39 *	Roarian2 has quit (Ping timeout: 181 seconds)
470Nov 06 09:42:41 <Hierophant>	Yeah, but it's only natural to try to force the other side to agree with you, right?
471Nov 06 09:42:51 <Xepheria>	'force'
472Nov 06 09:42:52 <Brut>	Through debate and discussion
473Nov 06 09:42:53 <Hierophant>	Nobody would calmly and peacefuly live in a world where the other side still exists.
474Nov 06 09:42:56 <PassedFaust>	No, it makes you uncompromising
475Nov 06 09:42:57 <Xepheria>	you can't force people to think things
476Nov 06 09:42:59 <Brut>	Not forced takeover
477Nov 06 09:43:03 <Hierophant>	So any wordl that is calm and peaceful would have to be one-party by definition
478Nov 06 09:43:06 <VereorNox>	You're arguing for that, Hierophant 
479Nov 06 09:43:10 <VereorNox>	Lemme find the quote
480Nov 06 09:43:11 <Hierophant>	Okay, maybe force is the wrong word.
481Nov 06 09:43:17 <Xepheria>	See
482Nov 06 09:43:17 <Hierophant>	"educate" or "convince" maybe
483Nov 06 09:43:18 <VereorNox>	[Nov 06 09:13:05] <Hierophant> I think that they should be corrected and *gently* educated as to why they're wrong.
484Nov 06 09:43:22 <VereorNox>	Literally your words.
485Nov 06 09:43:29 <Hierophant>	Right. 
486Nov 06 09:43:37 <Hierophant>	Like I said, force is the wrong word here
487Nov 06 09:43:42 <Hierophant>	And I apologize for using that word
488Nov 06 09:43:44 <PassedFaust>	Persuade is the right word
489Nov 06 09:43:48 <VereorNox>	It doesn't matter if you use a prettier word
490Nov 06 09:43:51 <VereorNox>	The intent is the same
491Nov 06 09:43:52 <Hierophant>	So it's only natural to correct the other side when they say something you think is wrong
492Nov 06 09:43:53 <PassedFaust>	Like a debate
493Nov 06 09:43:58 <PassedFaust>	Not correct
494Nov 06 09:44:05 <Brut>	What if they say *you* are wrong
495Nov 06 09:44:08 <Brut>	Then what
496Nov 06 09:44:14 <Hierophant>	But I'm not? So nothing happens.
497Nov 06 09:44:14 <PassedFaust>	Because you are not objectively right
498Nov 06 09:44:17 <Xepheria>	'How dare you have an opinion different to my own?'
499Nov 06 09:44:22 <Hierophant>	I don't *have* to be objectively right
500Nov 06 09:44:23 <Brut>	Jesus Christ
501Nov 06 09:44:27 <Xepheria>	'My worldview is the only worldview that's acceptable'
502Nov 06 09:44:31 <Hierophant>	Okay, I think this discussion is going nowhere.
503Nov 06 09:44:37 <VereorNox>	Because you run in circles
504Nov 06 09:44:45 <Hierophant>	So I'm just going to say that Xepheria's representation of my views is a distorted strawman
505Nov 06 09:44:46 <VereorNox>	Thinking your opinion is right
506Nov 06 09:44:50 <VereorNox>	While everyone is arguing against it
507Nov 06 09:44:58 <Hierophant>	Of course I think my opinion is right! What would I do, think my opinion is wrong??
508Nov 06 09:45:01 <Hierophant>	o.o
509Nov 06 09:45:08 <VereorNox>	No
510Nov 06 09:45:09 <VereorNox>	Of course not
511Nov 06 09:45:10 <PassedFaust>	But it is
512Nov 06 09:45:14 <VereorNox>	We would just like to correct your opinion
513Nov 06 09:45:14 <Xepheria>	I'm taking your statements to their logical conclusion
514Nov 06 09:45:16 <VereorNox>	Adn gently persuade you
515Nov 06 09:45:20 <VereorNox>	To think differently
516Nov 06 09:45:22 <Xepheria>	just extrapolation
517Nov 06 09:45:23 <VereorNox>	There's nothing wrong about that, right?
518Nov 06 09:45:35 <Hierophant>	Right, there's definitely nothing wrong with that. That's the natural order of things.
519Nov 06 09:45:40 <PassedFaust>	We're reeducating you
520Nov 06 09:45:42 <Hierophant>	But it's weird when someone is definitely wrong and you just let him win like that!
521Nov 06 09:45:53 <Elara>	"let him win"
522Nov 06 09:45:55 <VereorNox>	Define. Definitely. Wrong.
523Nov 06 09:46:10 <PassedFaust>	Hierophant quit saying wronh
524Nov 06 09:46:11 <Hierophant>	I mean, if you think someone is wrong, you wouldn't let him win, right? Let's try to agree on *that* at least
525Nov 06 09:46:15 <VereorNox>	"Does not agree with my opinions" is not an objective statement to define "being wrong"
526Nov 06 09:46:20 <Elara>	In order for democracy to function, you have to accept the other side winning, of they do it by the rules
527Nov 06 09:46:24 <Fulvus>	They don't win unless more people think they AREN'T "definitely wrong". That's the point.
528Nov 06 09:46:38 <Hierophant>	Vern, what would you call someone who disagrees with your views other than "wrong" unless you think your views themselves are wrong?
529Nov 06 09:46:53 <Brut>	But the fun thing about a democracy with free speech Hiero
530Nov 06 09:46:54 <PassedFaust>	Quit saying wrong
531Nov 06 09:46:55 <Elara>	Because there is a value to the system continuing to function that goes above and beyond the flaws with one individual candidate
532Nov 06 09:46:59 <Hierophant>	Elara: Well, yeah, and I think that's like the biggest, biggest big flaw of democracy
533Nov 06 09:47:00 <VereorNox>	I'd say that they have a different opinion I disagree with.
534Nov 06 09:47:02 <Brut>	Is that even if you think they're wrong and they win
535Nov 06 09:47:04 <Hierophant>	because it allows idiots and bad people to wring
536Nov 06 09:47:05 <Hierophant>	win*
537Nov 06 09:47:09 <VereorNox>	But I wouldn't call it wrong.
538Nov 06 09:47:12 <Xepheria>	If you can't entertain an idea without accepting it
539Nov 06 09:47:16 <Xepheria>	I have little hope for you
540Nov 06 09:47:17 <Hierophant>	Vern: What's the difference between that and saying "wrong" though
541Nov 06 09:47:18 <Fulvus>	If Hillary wins I'll be mildly irritated, but I'll "let" her win, for sure. Fuck, I'll be bildly irritated if Trump wins too because that's how shit this election is, but still.
542Nov 06 09:47:21 <Brut>	You can still criticize and argue with them 
543Nov 06 09:47:27 <Hierophant>	Why would I bother entertaining ideas I don't accept?
544Nov 06 09:47:36 <PassedFaust>	Compromise
545Nov 06 09:47:44 <Fulvus>	We've gone over that one in extensive length before, Hiero.
546Nov 06 09:47:44 <Elara>	A lot of people think that Trump being president for four years would do significantly less damage to the US, than "not letting" him win
547Nov 06 09:47:47 <PassedFaust>	Being likable
548Nov 06 09:47:48 <Hierophant>	You'd weaken your ideals for the sake of compromise? :|
549Nov 06 09:47:51 <Xepheria>	yes
550Nov 06 09:47:56 <Xepheria>	if it means getting shit done
551Nov 06 09:47:58 <VereorNox>	criticizing something and calling it plain wrong is the difference between having this discussion
552Nov 06 09:48:03 <VereorNox>	And sticking your fingers into your ears
553Nov 06 09:48:07 <VereorNox>	Shouting "LALALALA" on the top of your lungs
554Nov 06 09:48:21 <Mishie>	18:46	Hierophant	because it allows idiots and bad people to wring
555Nov 06 09:48:22 <Mishie>	okay
556Nov 06 09:48:22 <Mishie>	so
557Nov 06 09:48:23 <Hierophant>	Okay, then I think the difference is we're defining wrong differently
558Nov 06 09:48:29 <Mishie>	Just going to throw this out there
559Nov 06 09:48:29 <Hierophant>	Well, that's bad, I think.
560Nov 06 09:48:34 <Elara>	Any system occasionally has to choose between the immediate good of it's goals and the long-term good of the system
561Nov 06 09:48:35 <Hierophant>	We agree idiots and bad people winning is not good, right?
562Nov 06 09:48:38 <Mishie>	What happens when people decide that you're an idiot that's wrong?
563Nov 06 09:48:42 <Fulvus>	Because if you are not willing to entertain opposing ideals, you will stagnate and be unable to change, over time you will also double-down into more extreme ideals because you are going out of your way to not be challenegd on an intellectual level.
564Nov 06 09:48:45 <PassedFaust>	Because calling people wrong makes you seem like a massive dick
565Nov 06 09:48:47 <Hierophant>	Hmm? then you don't win
566Nov 06 09:48:50 <Brut>	Hiero, even if the "wrong" side wins the election, free speech allows them to still be criticized for being "wrong"
567Nov 06 09:48:52 <Mishie>	But I did
568Nov 06 09:48:54 <Mishie>	You're an idiot
569Nov 06 09:48:55 <Mishie>	and wrong
570Nov 06 09:48:55 <Elara>	It's adorable that you think it applies only to democracy
571Nov 06 09:48:57 <Mishie>	I'm in power
572Nov 06 09:49:00 <Xepheria>	Flat out refusal to consider ideas and alternative viewpoints just makes you seem uneducated
573Nov 06 09:49:03 <Mishie>	Therefore I'm right
574Nov 06 09:49:09 <Mishie>	Thus, you're an idiot that's wrong.
575Nov 06 09:49:33 <Hierophant>	Xepheria: There's a difference between "considering" Trump's ideas and just standing by and letting him win
576Nov 06 09:49:34 <VereorNox>	The entire point is
577Nov 06 09:49:37 <VereorNox>	You think you are right, Hierophant
578Nov 06 09:49:43 <VereorNox>	That's your bias, and that's alright
579Nov 06 09:49:45 <Xepheria>	Who says anyone would stand by
580Nov 06 09:49:46 <Hierophant>	Of course I do! Everyone does 
581Nov 06 09:49:46 <Xepheria>	lmao
582Nov 06 09:49:47 <VereorNox>	And here's half a dozen people
583Nov 06 09:49:51 <VereorNox>	Who tell you you're wrong.
584Nov 06 09:49:53 <Xepheria>	they would fight every step of the fucking way
585Nov 06 09:49:56 <VereorNox>	Why don't you correct your thinking?
586Nov 06 09:49:59 <Elara>	How would you stop him winning, Hiero? Be specific, please
587Nov 06 09:50:02 <Xepheria>	and I have no influence anyway
588Nov 06 09:50:12 <Hierophant>	Ideally? Just tell him he's disqualified and make Hillary the president by defeault.
589Nov 06 09:50:13 <Xepheria>	I'm both British, and not 18
590Nov 06 09:50:15 <VereorNox>	Hiero suggests an unconstitutional bias towards the "right" candidate, Elara 
591Nov 06 09:50:20 <VereorNox>	Not allowing Trump to be president even if he wins
592Nov 06 09:50:26 <Brut>	Hiero, you have no fucking idea how much the entire system of democracy in America would crack if the winner of the presidential election was just told "Nah"
593Nov 06 09:50:28 <VereorNox>	Because the majority of people are wrong.
594Nov 06 09:50:30 <Brut>	That's not how it works
595Nov 06 09:50:33 <Elara>	W o w
596Nov 06 09:50:48 <Hierophant>	Okay, so what's wrong with democracy cracking?
597Nov 06 09:50:55 <Fulvus>	We need to dial back the tone of this conversation slightly, guys.
598Nov 06 09:51:03 <Xepheria>	Because then we go back to feudalism
599Nov 06 09:51:04 <Hierophant>	Okay, maybe I'll take a break, cool down and come back with a clearer head?
600Nov 06 09:51:12 <Xepheria>	he who has the biggest stick 'wins'
601Nov 06 09:51:16 <Elara>	Because hundreds of millions of people live, mostly functionally, under the system
602Nov 06 09:51:23 <PassedFaust>	Hiero, I think you are naive, unreasonable, more than a little stubborn, and a fascist in classical definition. But I think you should be able to be that way in politics.
603Nov 06 09:51:37 <PassedFaust>	Because my opinion is just that
604Nov 06 09:51:40 <Elara>	If you crack it, you're risking harming large portions of those people
605Nov 06 09:51:42 <PassedFaust>	An opinion
606Nov 06 09:51:59 <Hierophant>	Okay, wait, I think I see the root of our disagreement.
607Nov 06 09:52:05 <Hierophant>	Faust, can you name a strong opinion you have?
608Nov 06 09:52:06 <VereorNox>	Your opinion?
609Nov 06 09:52:17 <Hierophant>	Like, any strong opinion
610Nov 06 09:52:33 <PassedFaust>	I think that gay marriage should be legal
611Nov 06 09:52:35 <Hierophant>	Okay.
612Nov 06 09:52:43 <Hierophant>	Do you think that everyone in the world should also think that gay marriage should be legal?
613Nov 06 09:52:48 <PassedFaust>	No
614Nov 06 09:52:52 <Hierophant>	Right.
615Nov 06 09:52:59 <Hierophant>	I'm having trouble reconciling those two facts?
616Nov 06 09:53:04 <Fulvus>	?
617Nov 06 09:53:07 <Elara>	Why?
618Nov 06 09:53:09 <Xepheria>	??
619Nov 06 09:53:09 <VereorNox>	"Everyone should think exactly like I do." - Hiero
620Nov 06 09:53:18 <PassedFaust>	Because I support people's right to disagree with me
621Nov 06 09:53:42 <VereorNox>	Hiero disagrees with that right. That's the root of it.
622Nov 06 09:53:48 <Brut>	I'm sure Faust, like the rest of us, *wishes* people all agreed on that
623Nov 06 09:53:51 <Hierophant>	I don't understand why you'd say that gay marriage is right but allow people to think it's wrong.
624Nov 06 09:53:56 <Brut>	But you have to understand that people don't agree
625Nov 06 09:54:04 <PassedFaust>	I never said it was right
626Nov 06 09:54:06 <Hierophant>	That's a question of reality, not what should be.
627Nov 06 09:54:07 <Fulvus>	"allow" is the key word here.
628Nov 06 09:54:10 <Elara>	Because, Hiero, you might be wrong
629Nov 06 09:54:13 <Hierophant>	In an ideal world, everyone would agree gay marriage is right, right?
630Nov 06 09:54:19 <Hierophant>	Like, in a perfect system
631Nov 06 09:54:31 <VereorNox>	No.
632Nov 06 09:54:32 <PassedFaust>	On MY ideal world
633Nov 06 09:54:36 <Elara>	If you stop people from disagreeing with you, you'll never find out that you're wrong
634Nov 06 09:54:37 <VereorNox>	^
635Nov 06 09:54:45 <VereorNox>	Both Faust and Elara ^
636Nov 06 09:55:00 <Fulvus>	^ All those 4 posts
637Nov 06 09:55:14 <Hierophant>	What is the distinction between "an" ideal world and "my" ideal world? 
638Nov 06 09:55:21 <Brut>	Reality
639Nov 06 09:55:25 <Hierophant>	I think I'm failing to grasp something fundamental here
640Nov 06 09:55:25 <Xepheria>	If people never questioned the established line of thinking
641Nov 06 09:55:26 <Elara>	In my ideal world, gay marriage is accepted everywhere, but there are still people campaigning against it
642Nov 06 09:55:27 <PassedFaust>	Because you are not me
643Nov 06 09:55:31 <Xepheria>	we'd still be in the dark ages
644Nov 06 09:55:33 <Hierophant>	Reality has nothing to do with an ideal world, I think.
645Nov 06 09:55:39 <PassedFaust>	You hold different values
646Nov 06 09:55:49 <Xepheria>	Alternatively
647Nov 06 09:55:50 <Hierophant>	"What is" has no place in the discussion of what should be. That only comes when we're discussing how to make the two reconcile
648Nov 06 09:55:56 <Xepheria>	an ideal world has nothing to do with reality
649Nov 06 09:56:10 <Hierophant>	That's the same thing. I don't care about reality, I care about an ideal world.
650Nov 06 09:56:14 <Elara>	What should be is based first, on an understanding of what is
651Nov 06 09:56:20 <Hierophant>	What!
652Nov 06 09:56:35 <Hierophant>	Do you mean to say your values would change if you were living in someplace else?
653Nov 06 09:56:39 <Elara>	You can't build a utopia that works if you don't understand how things really work
654Nov 06 09:56:41 <Xepheria>	Yes
655Nov 06 09:56:42 <Fulvus>	They would, actually.
656Nov 06 09:56:47 <Brut>	Absolutely Hiero
657Nov 06 09:56:47 <Fulvus>	That's how socialization works.
658Nov 06 09:56:51 <Hierophant>	That gay marriage magically becomes wrong if human society were structured differently?
659Nov 06 09:56:52 <Xepheria>	if you were living in nazi germany
660Nov 06 09:56:56 <VereorNox>	Strife improves. Conflict improves. Crisis improve.
661Nov 06 09:57:04 <Elara>	You cannot reform without understanding the current system
662Nov 06 09:57:04 <Xepheria>	you would probably be more inclined to agree with the nazis
663Nov 06 09:57:10 <PassedFaust>	In my ideal world my hands wouldn't be fucked, my girlfriend wouldn't have cheated and I'd eat steak every day. Guess what won't fucking happen?
664Nov 06 09:57:11 <Hierophant>	Yeah, but even in Nazi Germany gay marriage doesn't magically become wrong just because the nazis think it is!
665Nov 06 09:57:18 <Xepheria>	erm
666Nov 06 09:57:21 <Xepheria>	...
667Nov 06 09:57:26 <VereorNox>	For Nazis? It definitely does.
668Nov 06 09:57:34 <Elara>	Ok, can we walk back the Godwin a little
669Nov 06 09:57:42 <Hierophant>	PassedFaust: But it's ridiculous to say "well, my hands are fucked, so let's pretend my hands should not be healthy." Right?
670Nov 06 09:57:47 <Hierophant>	And if you could make your hands unfucked, you would, right?
671Nov 06 09:57:57 <PassedFaust>	Yeah, but I can't 
672Nov 06 09:57:58 <VereorNox>	I mean
673Nov 06 09:57:59 <Fulvus>	It's hard to do that, Elara, because this conversation actually is somewhat related to fascism. For once.
674Nov 06 09:58:03 <VereorNox>	I'm sure the steak thing can happen, PassedFaust
675Nov 06 09:58:11 <Hierophant>	Vern: Wait, doesn't that imply that the Nazis have the ability to make gay marriage wrong just by believing it/
676Nov 06 09:58:14 <Hierophant>	I don't buy that at all.
677Nov 06 09:58:17 <VereorNox>	No, Hierophant 
678Nov 06 09:58:30 <Xepheria>	That's exactly what they did
679Nov 06 09:58:39 <VereorNox>	That implies that during the 1940s, the reality of the German people was that gay marriage was wrong
680Nov 06 09:58:52 <Fulvus>	The point is that they shouldn't be able to do that, and NEITHER should anyone else.
681Nov 06 09:58:56 <Fulvus>	Even you.
682Nov 06 09:59:01 <Brut>	The Nazis managed to create a reality where they could pin everything on other groups of people
683Nov 06 09:59:07 <Xepheria>	'Everyone that deviates from the norm shall be placed in these here camps'
684Nov 06 09:59:09 <Brut>	Because they *couldn't* be wrong!
685Nov 06 09:59:13 <Brut>	Of course not
686Nov 06 09:59:20 <Xepheria>	'Don't question the leadership
687Nov 06 09:59:24 <Xepheria>	'we're right'
688Nov 06 09:59:25 <VereorNox>	That's the crux of your opinion, Hierophant 
689Nov 06 09:59:35 <VereorNox>	You don't think any opinion you hold is wrong.
690Nov 06 09:59:37 <PassedFaust>	I'm going to sleep, have fun with this. Xeph, I already pursued that line, don't bother
691Nov 06 09:59:46 <Xepheria>	It's hypocrisy of the highest order
692Nov 06 09:59:46 <VereorNox>	Night Faustus
693Nov 06 09:59:50 <Xepheria>	night faust
694Nov 06 09:59:51 <VereorNox>	Eat some steak when you can
695Nov 06 10:00:09 <Hierophant>	I think that there is a system of morality and politics, somewhere, that is absolutely and completely right and perfect. I do not claim to have that system, but I can claim to know definitely if something is NOT within that system - such as Donald J. Trump.
696Nov 06 10:00:37 <Hierophant>	And, if we suppose that there was a leadership who was perfect enough to understand and enact that system, then they would have every right to order people not to question them and to re-educate those who disagree.
697Nov 06 10:00:51 <Elara>	Hiero, your opinion is not the pinnacle of human development. None of our opinions are: humanity isn't finished yet. If you shut down wrong opinions and stop the interflow of ideas, you are holding us back
698Nov 06 10:00:56 <Hierophant>	The Nazis do not have this right, because Nazism is not the perfect morality - I know enough to see that much, even if I'm not perfect myself.
699Nov 06 10:00:57 <Fulvus>	Yeah, I'm checking out too, I have a migraine and it's 4am here. l8r t8rs.
700Nov 06 10:01:02 *	Axle has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
701Nov 06 10:01:05 <Elara>	That perfect leadership is impossible
702Nov 06 10:01:11 <Hierophant>	Why?
703Nov 06 10:01:12 <Xepheria>	Who defines 'perfect morality'
704Nov 06 10:01:19 <Brut>	Stop calling it the perfect morality
705Nov 06 10:01:22 <Elara>	Because humans?
706Nov 06 10:01:24 <Hierophant>	It's not defined by anyone!!
707Nov 06 10:01:26 <Hierophant>	It just *is*
708Nov 06 10:01:32 <Hierophant>	I would call it the word of god, only I don't believe in god
709Nov 06 10:01:32 <Brut>	That doesn't make sense
710Nov 06 10:01:33 <Hierophant>	y'know?
711Nov 06 10:01:36 <Xepheria>	I'm fairly certain the nazi's would have said that their system was the pinnacle of humanity
712Nov 06 10:01:41 <Brut>	That's objectivism
713Nov 06 10:01:47 <Brut>	And it's bullshit
714Nov 06 10:01:49 <Hierophant>	I'm not sure what objectivism is.
715Nov 06 10:01:56 <Hierophant>	I definitely think subjectivism is wrong.
716Nov 06 10:02:15 <Xepheria>	Is murder wrong?
717Nov 06 10:02:24 <Brut>	That there a a defined right and wrong
718Nov 06 10:02:28 <Brut>	*there is
719Nov 06 10:02:36 <Elara>	Whoa whoa whoa
720Nov 06 10:02:54 <Elara>	Careful with words, objectivism is a very specific thing
721Nov 06 10:03:02 <Elara>	Damnit Ayn Rand
722Nov 06 10:03:26 <Hierophant>	I think that there is a defined right and wrong. I don't think anyone defined it.
723Nov 06 10:03:37 <Hierophant>	it just *is*, as a, well, a cosmic law, I suppose you could say.
724Nov 06 10:03:50 <Brut>	Do you have proof
725Nov 06 10:04:01 <Hierophant>	If you don't agree with me on this, then there's nothing to say any more, because this is at an axiomatic level.
726Nov 06 10:04:04 <VereorNox>	Okay
727Nov 06 10:04:16 <Xepheria>	that sounds awfully like religion to me
728Nov 06 10:04:18 <VereorNox>	I say one of the cosmic laws is that people are free to have any opinion
729Nov 06 10:04:22 <Elara>	Naw, that's okay
730Nov 06 10:04:24 <VereorNox>	Even dissenting ones.
731Nov 06 10:04:36 <Elara>	I broadly agree that there is a true morality
732Nov 06 10:04:38 <Brut>	All morality humans have comes from out evolutionary need to get along in a society
733Nov 06 10:04:40 <VereorNox>	But these opinions can be limited by the top brass
734Nov 06 10:04:52 <Brut>	Not a fucking *cosmic* need
735Nov 06 10:04:54 <VereorNox>	For example, I've clashed with Wildbow and Winged over what's okay to say in chat and what not
736Nov 06 10:05:07 <VereorNox>	This is Wildbow's server, he can decide that
737Nov 06 10:05:14 <VereorNox>	But he has not banned me for telling him that I disagree
738Nov 06 10:05:15 <Hierophant>	Xepheria: It's not religious - there's no worship or anything.
739Nov 06 10:05:19 <Elara>	It is humanity dependent, but with humanity taken as a given it's basically fixed
740Nov 06 10:05:36 <Hierophant>	^
741Nov 06 10:06:00 <Brut>	But it's not cosmic, whatever that means
742Nov 06 10:06:10 <Xepheria>	^
743Nov 06 10:06:26 <Hierophant>	's just a fancy way of saying it's absolute.
744Nov 06 10:06:46 <Brut>	But it's only absolute because we like hunting in groups
745Nov 06 10:06:46 <Xepheria>	it's not absolute though
746Nov 06 10:06:51 <Brut>	That what it all boils down to
747Nov 06 10:06:54 <Xepheria>	there is no such thing as absolute morality
748Nov 06 10:06:59 <Elara>	I just don't think I know exactly what it is, or that anyone does, or that we ever will, or that we can build a system around some people knowing what it is and forcing everyone else to abide by it
749Nov 06 10:07:13 <Hierophant>	If you can't agree with me that there is an absolutely true, universal morality, then I have literally nothing to say to you, because we're disagreeing on a level so deep there's absolutely no way of changing it through discussion, so anything further would be unproductive
750Nov 06 10:07:14 <Elara>	Even an ideal, utopian system
751Nov 06 10:07:31 *	Avery (uid162146@ealing.irccloud.com) has joined
752Nov 06 10:08:05 <Hierophant>	I don't think I know exactly what the absolute morality is. I don't think anyone alive knows what it is. I think that we are taking steps towards it, and that someday, in the distant future, we as a species will reach it. And when we do, all that's left is the paperwork, and we can finally achieve our utopia forever.
753Nov 06 10:08:08 <Brut>	I don't think anyone could be so arrogant as to know for sure that there's an absolute true, universal morality
754Nov 06 10:08:18 <Elara>	No, Hiero, because I agree with you on the reality of morality, and yet I agree with the rest here on actual policy
755Nov 06 10:08:44 <Hierophant>	I have literally not suggested a single thing having to do with actual policy throughout the entirety of this discussion.
756Nov 06 10:08:49 <Elara>	So clearly the discussion does not depend on that variable
757Nov 06 10:08:49 <Brut>	I think you're vastly overrating the existence of the human race
758Nov 06 10:09:20 <Brut>	We weren't created to achieve some enlightenment, we just do what we do because that's what life does
759Nov 06 10:09:24 <Hierophant>	Nothing about anything I've said at all today has to do with actual policy.
760Nov 06 10:09:27 <Elara>	You have! You suggested if Trump wins the election, handing Hillary the presidency
761Nov 06 10:09:32 <Hierophant>	It's completely disconnected from reality. I'm just explaining the ideal.
762Nov 06 10:09:38 <Xepheria>	the ideal
763Nov 06 10:09:39 <Xepheria>	does
764Nov 06 10:09:40 <Hierophant>	Elara, that would be the ideal couse of action, yeah?
765Nov 06 10:09:40 <Xepheria>	not
766Nov 06 10:09:40 <Elara>	That's a policy decision
767Nov 06 10:09:41 <Xepheria>	exist
768Nov 06 10:09:45 <Brut>	NO
769Nov 06 10:09:51 <Elara>	No, it would not
770Nov 06 10:09:54 <Hierophant>	Of course, it's not always possible to execute the ideal. So we settle for booting Trump out after 4 years.
771Nov 06 10:10:09 <Elara>	It would in no way be ideal
772Nov 06 10:10:18 <Hierophant>	Booting Trump out after 4 years is the *actual policy* I would propose - but it's not the *best* thing that could happen.
773Nov 06 10:10:19 *	Fulvus has quit (Quit: I'M OUT)
774Nov 06 10:10:23 <Xepheria>	in any way, shape or form
775Nov 06 10:10:27 <Brut>	I can't believe you've managed to get a bunch of liberals to tell you repeatedly why *not* letting Trump in office would be bad
776Nov 06 10:10:29 <Brut>	But here we are
777Nov 06 10:10:35 <Elara>	It would destroy the US' political system and require a replacement to be built
778Nov 06 10:10:47 <Hierophant>	If we're speaking of the ideal, then we already have a replacement here.
779Nov 06 10:10:48 <Hierophant>	:P
780Nov 06 10:10:55 <Xepheria>	What
781Nov 06 10:11:00 <Xepheria>	totalitarianism
782Nov 06 10:11:04 <Xepheria>	autocracy?
783Nov 06 10:11:06 <Brut>	Hiero, you might need to take a trip to the west one day
784Nov 06 10:11:07 <Hierophant>	right
785Nov 06 10:11:11 <Xepheria>	Dictatorship
786Nov 06 10:11:12 <Xepheria>	fuck no
787Nov 06 10:11:15 <Brut>	Because you don't seem to get it
788Nov 06 10:11:32 <Hierophant>	What is bad about dictatorship, again? It's because the dictators always abuse their powers and hurt people, right?
789Nov 06 10:11:39 <Xepheria>	power corrupts
790Nov 06 10:11:43 <Hierophant>	However... if the dictatorship is an ideal dictatorship, the dictator won't hurt people.
791Nov 06 10:11:46 <Xepheria>	absolute power corrupts absolutely
792Nov 06 10:11:49 <Hierophant>	Power cannot corrupt an ideal person.
793Nov 06 10:11:53 <Hierophant>	All we have to do is find that person.
794Nov 06 10:11:53 <Avery>	Hiero, are you Singaporean?
795Nov 06 10:11:56 <Xepheria>	IDEAL PEOPLE DO NOT EXIST
796Nov 06 10:11:56 <Brut>	An ideal person doesn't exist
797Nov 06 10:11:58 <Hierophant>	Until then, we'll plod along with democracy.
798Nov 06 10:12:00 <Hierophant>	Then we'll make them!
799Nov 06 10:12:17 <Hierophant>	Until then, like I said, we'll plod along with democracy, because it's the best we've got so far.
800Nov 06 10:12:24 <Elara>	Not just that, it's also because unnecessary concentration of power is wasteful
801Nov 06 10:12:40 <Hierophant>	But when, eventually, we find, breed, build or form this ideal person, we *must* enact the better sytem.
802Nov 06 10:12:49 <Brut>	He is, Avery
803Nov 06 10:12:59 <Avery>	Ah, now I understand.
804Nov 06 10:13:03 <Xepheria>	are we moving onto eugenics now
805Nov 06 10:13:05 <VereorNox>	It's not like you actually live in a democracy, Hierophant
806Nov 06 10:13:07 <Avery>	Singapore is the only dictatorship that works.
807Nov 06 10:13:13 <Xepheria>	because that's a whole other kettle of fish
808Nov 06 10:13:58 <Elara>	Seriously, concentration of power is bad, even when it doesn't corrupt, unless there's a real need to do it
809Nov 06 10:14:10 <Avery>	Singapore, like Malaysia, operates under the illusion of a democracy. But one party has always been in power since the start.
810Nov 06 10:14:58 <Xepheria>	For example, militaries need a concentration of power, a chain of command
811Nov 06 10:15:01 <Xepheria>	in order to function
812Nov 06 10:15:18 <Hierophant>	Nobody brought up eugenics.
813Nov 06 10:15:29 <Hierophant>	I'm just saying that it's possible to have an ideal human being, despite what you keep repeating in all caps.
814Nov 06 10:15:34 <Xepheria>	'But when, eventually, we find, breed, build or form this ideal person'
815Nov 06 10:15:38 <Hierophant>	Eventually it will come, sooner or later, in one way or another.
816Nov 06 10:15:49 <Hierophant>	And when we do, we will enact the ideal system under the guidance of the ideal person.
817Nov 06 10:15:49 <Elara>	Right, but even in military organisations a lot of the most effective ones have decision-making pushed to the lowest possible levels
818Nov 06 10:15:57 <Brut>	You're talking about an Ubermensch 
819Nov 06 10:16:01 <Hierophant>	This is what I think a good utopia would be.
820Nov 06 10:16:03 <Elara>	Mission command, or aufstragtaktik
821Nov 06 10:16:08 <Hierophant>	Not necesarily an ubermensch, brut
822Nov 06 10:16:12 <Hierophant>	just someone who can't be corrupted by power
823Nov 06 10:16:18 <Hierophant>	and who's competent enough to manage affairs
824Nov 06 10:16:25 <Elara>	Yeah, Plato's Republic is still shit
825Nov 06 10:16:30 <Hierophant>	that's all we need, and we address the one failing of dictatorship - no corruption.
826Nov 06 10:16:33 <Hierophant>	That's the only trait we need.
827Nov 06 10:16:40 <Mishie>	are you
828Nov 06 10:16:47 <Brut>	So all this rests upon a unicorn of a human being
829Nov 06 10:16:52 <Mishie>	is that all we need
830Nov 06 10:16:54 <Brut>	Yeah, that's dumb
831Nov 06 10:16:57 <Mishie>	no corruption
832Nov 06 10:16:59 <Xepheria>	Perfect in every way
833Nov 06 10:17:04 <Xepheria>	and yet ultimately
834Nov 06 10:17:09 <Xepheria>	a fairytale
835Nov 06 10:17:11 <Elara>	That is far from the only failing of dictatorship
836Nov 06 10:17:22 *	Camtist has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
837Nov 06 10:18:32 <Elara>	As Xeph and I have just been discussing above
838Nov 06 10:18:51 <EllardyAway>	Just came back, we're having this conversation again
839Nov 06 10:19:04 <VereorNox>	This discussion long since evolved, Ellardy.
840Nov 06 10:19:09 <VereorNox>	It's become the uberdiscussion.
841Nov 06 10:19:15 <VereorNox>	Perfect in every way.
842Nov 06 10:19:16 <EllardyAway>	Hiero, ever read Plato's Republic? I think you'd like it
843Nov 06 10:19:52 <Hierophant>	Mishie: It's what people keep bringing up whenever I ask what's wrong with autocracy
844Nov 06 10:20:01 <Hierophant>	"the dictator will be corrupted", "absolute power corrupts absolutely"
845Nov 06 10:20:12 <Hierophant>	So I say, okay, we build a person that can't be corrupted, and that should fix everything.
846Nov 06 10:20:30 <VereorNox>	People back in the middle ages thought their king was that kind of person, bro. 
847Nov 06 10:20:33 <EllardyAway>	Similar argument: there exists an objective right or wrong which can be found in much the same way as a scientific truth. You set a highly educated elite to find what the right thing is and then let them implement it
848Nov 06 10:20:50 *	EllardyAway is now known as Ellardy
849Nov 06 10:21:06 <Hierophant>	I agree with you guys on literally everything else - most social and political issues. I agree with you on the reality of policy you love so much. But you decide to take issue with *this*? The incredibly unoriginal idea that it's good to have a strong chain of command?
850Nov 06 10:21:23 <Xepheria>	I never said that
851Nov 06 10:21:25 <Xepheria>	lmao
852Nov 06 10:21:34 <Hierophant>	You literally did, dude. You said autocracy was wrong.
853Nov 06 10:21:46 *	Hierophant is now known as Hiero|GM
854Nov 06 10:21:57 <Hiero|GM>	Gonna ask again
855Nov 06 10:22:00 <Hiero|GM>	What's wrong with dictatorship
856Nov 06 10:22:11 <Hiero|GM>	Corruption? Sure, we can fix that.
857Nov 06 10:22:14 <FossilLord>	Single point of failure
858Nov 06 10:22:21 <Hiero|GM>	What do you mean?
859Nov 06 10:22:25 <Xepheria>	No oversight
860Nov 06 10:22:29 <VereorNox>	Well first of all
861Nov 06 10:22:30 <FossilLord>	Creates narrative of single person seizing power, justify being murders
862Nov 06 10:22:33 <Hiero|GM>	We're talking about the ideal world here. There *is* no failure.
863Nov 06 10:22:34 <Mishie>	19:22	Hiero|GM	Corruption? Sure, we can fix that.
864Nov 06 10:22:36 <VereorNox>	People who disagree with the dictator would be killed en masse
865Nov 06 10:22:36 <Mishie>	okay so
866Nov 06 10:22:37 <Brut>	Because we come from countries that respect one thing your dictatorship doesn't
867Nov 06 10:22:41 <Xepheria>	Your ideal world
868Nov 06 10:22:41 <VereorNox>	Or jailed? "re-educated"?
869Nov 06 10:22:43 <Xepheria>	can neverr
870Nov 06 10:22:43 <Mishie>	counterpoint
871Nov 06 10:22:45 <Brut>	The freedom to choose their leader
872Nov 06 10:22:45 <Xepheria>	exist
873Nov 06 10:22:54 <VereorNox>	Every opinion is equal, but some opinions are more equal than others?
874Nov 06 10:22:55 <Mishie>	What's wrong with democracy
875Nov 06 10:22:57 <Xepheria>	failure is essential for growth
876Nov 06 10:22:57 <Hiero|GM>	Brut: I do *not* respect that freedom at all!
877Nov 06 10:23:04 <Hiero|GM>	Mishie: It allows people like Trump to be elected
878Nov 06 10:23:05 <Mishie>	Bad candidates?  Sure, we can fix that.
879Nov 06 10:23:07 <VereorNox>	Mishie: "Trump has a chance for presidency-"
880Nov 06 10:23:11 <VereorNox>	Nevermind he said it
881Nov 06 10:23:12 <Mishie>	Bad candidates?  Sure, we can fix that.
882Nov 06 10:23:14 <FossilLord>	I've known several people whose relatives were killed by American backed dictatorships in South America
883Nov 06 10:23:28 <Mishie>	all I'm going to do
884Nov 06 10:23:33 <Hiero|GM>	Mishie: Wait, so you agree with me on this?
885Nov 06 10:23:33 <Mishie>	Is quote back all the shit you say
886Nov 06 10:23:37 <FossilLord>	They have cousins they are just now finding out about for example
887Nov 06 10:23:42 <Mishie>	And point out how dumb it is
888Nov 06 10:23:54 <Hiero|GM>	If you want a democracy with ideal candidates and just have people vote them in, that's no different from my system, isn't it?
889Nov 06 10:24:09 <Mishie>	All I did
890Nov 06 10:24:10 <Mishie>	was say
891Nov 06 10:24:14 <Avery>	I don't understand what's wrong with the allowance of Trump to be elected. Worst case, can't he just be assassinated?
892Nov 06 10:24:18 <Mishie>	"we can fix that"
893Nov 06 10:24:19 <Elara>	Hiero, corruption is the most outstanding, direct and obvious problem with dictatorship
894Nov 06 10:24:25 <Mishie>	with literally no reasoning behind it
895Nov 06 10:24:27 <Mishie>	or evidence
896Nov 06 10:24:30 <Elara>	That's why people bring it up first
897Nov 06 10:24:31 <Brut>	Well I mean, Avery
898Nov 06 10:24:33 <Mishie>	or anything at all
899Nov 06 10:24:34 <Mishie>	I just said
900Nov 06 10:24:36 <Brut>	Impeachment would be better
901Nov 06 10:24:38 <Mishie>	"we can fix that"
902Nov 06 10:24:39 <Mishie>	y'know
903Nov 06 10:24:42 <Mishie>	just like how you did
904Nov 06 10:24:46 <Xepheria>	This isn't the 60s avery
905Nov 06 10:24:46 <FossilLord>	Mishie you're using democracy incorrectly, Americans have a representative democracy because honestly getting everyone to vote on every issue it's incredibly boring and time-consuming
906Nov 06 10:24:51 <Xepheria>	:^)
907Nov 06 10:24:54 <Hiero|GM>	I did say why earlier, mish
908Nov 06 10:25:13 <Mishie>	Are you seriously expecting me to believe
909Nov 06 10:25:14 <Xepheria>	Also direct democracy is a terrible terrible idea
910Nov 06 10:25:25 <Mishie>	That you've created a full working plan to totally eliminate corruption?
911Nov 06 10:25:34 <FossilLord>	At least with current technology Xepheria
912Nov 06 10:25:34 <Hiero|GM>	Corruption comes because humans are imperfect. Agree? Well, all we have to do is wait for humans to become perfect - or, if not perfect, then at least good to the point where they can not be corrupt.
913Nov 06 10:25:43 <Mishie>	that
914Nov 06 10:25:45 <Hiero|GM>	And I think that will happen sooner or later because humanity inevitably improves itself
915Nov 06 10:25:47 <Mishie>	that's not a plan
916Nov 06 10:25:48 <Mishie>	that's just
917Nov 06 10:25:50 <FossilLord>	No Mishie that would be a waste of time given that the definition of corruption isn't even agreed upon
918Nov 06 10:25:50 <Hiero|GM>	I'm not saying I have a plan dude
919Nov 06 10:25:55 <Mishie>	that's not even close to anything
920Nov 06 10:26:03 <Elara>	How is an imperfect system going to ever make a perfect human?
921Nov 06 10:26:09 <Mishie>	and it's just so full of assumptions that
922Nov 06 10:26:10 <Hiero|GM>	The imperfect system improves itself.
923Nov 06 10:26:11 <Mishie>	I just
924Nov 06 10:26:19 <Mishie>	that's
925Nov 06 10:26:22 <Mishie>	that's not how anything works
926Nov 06 10:26:23 *	Lexicon (uid137968@charlton.irccloud.com) has joined
927Nov 06 10:26:25 <FossilLord>	The two of you could hammer out a proposal by yourselves you know
928Nov 06 10:26:29 <Brut>	And you think total dictatorship is endgame?
929Nov 06 10:26:36 <Hiero|GM>	What I am saying has *nothing* to do with how anything works.
930Nov 06 10:26:37 <Elara>	So you want us to make gradual improvements to our current system then?
931Nov 06 10:26:40 <Hiero|GM>	I'm saying how things *should* work
932Nov 06 10:26:49 <Xepheria>	according to you
933Nov 06 10:26:53 <Brut>	Well most people here would disagree
934Nov 06 10:26:54 <Hiero|GM>	Elara: Yes!!! it's literally the exact same thing you want!! 
935Nov 06 10:26:57 <Mishie>	no
936Nov 06 10:26:58 <VereorNox>	Lexicon o/
937Nov 06 10:26:59 <Elara>	No
938Nov 06 10:27:12 <Mishie>	You're trying to say that the sky is green and gravity doesn't exist
939Nov 06 10:27:13 <Elara>	Because you're aiming at a very different end
940Nov 06 10:27:14 <Lexicon>	Hi Vern
941Nov 06 10:27:27 <Brut>	Goddamn why isn't Lacks here for this
942Nov 06 10:27:33 <Hiero|GM>	If I thought gravity shouldn't exist, wouldn't I say "in an ideal world, gravity doesn't exist"?
943Nov 06 10:27:34 <Mishie>	Like
944Nov 06 10:27:38 <Hiero|GM>	And wouldn't I try to nivent antigravity devices?
945Nov 06 10:27:44 <Mishie>	At any point in this discussion
946Nov 06 10:27:51 <Mishie>	Have you said anything that wasn't an assumption?
947Nov 06 10:27:54 <Mishie>	Or a wild claim?
948Nov 06 10:27:58 <FossilLord>	Can I call a halt on this discussion? It looking like you're all agreeing on some things but you aren't agreeing on the language
949Nov 06 10:27:59 <Mishie>	'The imperfect system improves itself.'
950Nov 06 10:28:04 <Hiero|GM>	I am *not claiming anything*
951Nov 06 10:28:05 <Brut>	No, Foss
952Nov 06 10:28:09 <Mishie>	FossilLord: no
953Nov 06 10:28:11 <Hiero|GM>	I know nothing about how imperfect systems operate in the real world
954Nov 06 10:28:14 <Xepheria>	no foss
955Nov 06 10:28:15 <Hiero|GM>	I'm saying how imperfect systems should operate
956Nov 06 10:28:22 <Elara>	No, Fossil. If you're bored feel free to step out
957Nov 06 10:28:29 <Hiero|GM>	Why do you insist on trying to bring reality into everything? :|
958Nov 06 10:28:37 <Elara>	You can't shut down a conversation just because you're bored with it
959Nov 06 10:28:39 <FossilLord>	Then can I get summative arguments?
960Nov 06 10:28:39 <Mishie>	okay look
961Nov 06 10:28:46 <Mishie>	Hiero|GM: take this to #fanfic
962Nov 06 10:28:50 <Mishie>	because that's where it belongs
963Nov 06 10:28:54 <Mishie>	not #politics
964Nov 06 10:28:55 <Xepheria>	lOL
965Nov 06 10:28:58 <Brut>	lol
966Nov 06 10:29:03 <Hiero|GM>	:|
967Nov 06 10:29:27 <Elara>	Reality comes into everything Hiero, because it is ultimately all we have to work with
968Nov 06 10:29:41 <Mishie>	And I think I just ended the discussion
969Nov 06 10:29:58 <Hiero|GM>	Look... Mishie, you're saying that my view is unrealistic and naive, correct?
970Nov 06 10:30:02 <Elara>	Marxism, as flawed as it turned out to be, is a utopian system with a plan of how to enact it
971Nov 06 10:30:09 <Brut>	I can tell you 100% that as a person from a first world, democratic nation
972Nov 06 10:30:19 <Brut>	That ideal is NEVER going to work
973Nov 06 10:30:25 <Mishie>	I'm saying that everybody else here is working within the frame of reality
974Nov 06 10:30:31 <Brut>	And I'm happy with it
975Nov 06 10:30:32 <Mishie>	And things that are actually possible
976Nov 06 10:30:36 <VereorNox>	FossilLord: http://pastebin.com/3QvKTbPD
977Nov 06 10:30:37 <_>	[ Nov 06 07:55:17 <Fulvus> The fuck does this mean? https://wikileaks.org/dnc-emai - Pastebin.com ] - pastebin.com
978Nov 06 10:30:39 <Hiero|GM>	I don't think my ideas are impossible.
979Nov 06 10:30:57 <Hiero|GM>	I think they can be created given enough time and dedication, and I'm disappointed that everyone is letting their cynicism color them.
980Nov 06 10:30:58 <Mishie>	Or else I could just say that my ideal government is that Santa will come in on his sleigh to run for world president.
981Nov 06 10:31:07 <Hiero|GM>	You could say that, sure! 
982Nov 06 10:31:09 <Elara>	It's not cynicism!
983Nov 06 10:31:11 <Elara>	Jesus
984Nov 06 10:31:15 <Mishie>	But that isn't for #politics
985Nov 06 10:31:26 <Hiero|GM>	Okay, so look
986Nov 06 10:31:28 <Xepheria>	it's common sense
987Nov 06 10:31:29 <FossilLord>	Thanks VereorNox getting a 404 though
988Nov 06 10:31:37 <Elara>	We think your ideas are impossible and would lead to bad government
989Nov 06 10:31:40 <Ellardy>	https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/Wn8ad7zF/This%20got%20too%20long
990Nov 06 10:31:40 <_>	[ Pastebin | IRCCloud ] - www.irccloud.com
991Nov 06 10:31:43 <Hiero|GM>	if that's a mod ruling, I'm fine with taking this discussion away from politics
992Nov 06 10:31:47 <Elara>	(if tried)
993Nov 06 10:31:48 <Brut>	You can't keep calling it cynicism 
994Nov 06 10:31:54 <Hiero|GM>	If you actually feel that discussions of what should be right have no place in politics
995Nov 06 10:31:58 <Elara>	Not that they're nice but impossible
996Nov 06 10:32:10 <Hiero|GM>	I have more faith in humanity than you do, I guess.
997Nov 06 10:32:19 <Hiero|GM>	I don't think they're impossible(obviously)
998Nov 06 10:32:19 <Brut>	Apparently not
999Nov 06 10:32:33 <Brut>	If you think a dictatorship is what it takes
1000Nov 06 10:32:33 <Xepheria>	no, you have no faith in humanity
1001Nov 06 10:32:37 <Xepheria>	^^
1002Nov 06 10:32:39 <Mishie>	If you want I can start to list the horrible shit I've seen in person.
1003Nov 06 10:32:40 <Hiero|GM>	Why do you say that?
1004Nov 06 10:32:49 <Hiero|GM>	Mishie: If you could, you would fix that shit, right?
1005Nov 06 10:32:54 <Hiero|GM>	Because it's horrible shit.
1006Nov 06 10:32:54 <Mishie>	Well
1007Nov 06 10:33:05 <Mishie>	Considering how I've seen it because I was working at a hospital
1008Nov 06 10:33:09 <Mishie>	That is implied yes
1009Nov 06 10:33:27 <Brut>	How can you say you have faith in humanity if you want to appoint someone to make sure they never act of their own free will?
1010Nov 06 10:33:32 <Mishie>	But here's the thing
1011Nov 06 10:33:44 <Mishie>	Even though I want things to be better
1012Nov 06 10:33:47 <Mishie>	And work for it
1013Nov 06 10:33:53 <Mishie>	Both in my personal and work life
1014Nov 06 10:34:09 <Elara>	You have no faith in humanity to run itself, you want to bring in something not human (because that's what "perfect" is - inhuman) to decide everything for us
1015Nov 06 10:34:28 <Mishie>	But I want to work within the scope of what's actually possible
1016Nov 06 10:34:38 <Mishie>	Yes, in theory 10000 years from now things will be better
1017Nov 06 10:34:49 <VereorNox>	Or we will all be dead and the earth is gone. 
1018Nov 06 10:34:50 <Mishie>	Or
1019Nov 06 10:34:59 <Mishie>	I could work right now to make it slightly better
1020Nov 06 10:35:01 <Brut>	Likely, Vern
1021Nov 06 10:35:11 <Ellardy>	Politics: applied ideals to a less than ideal world since 1651! Buy now!
1022Nov 06 10:35:16 <Mishie>	Instead of just hoping that one day everything will be fixed
1023Nov 06 10:35:17 <Mishie>	Like
1024Nov 06 10:35:24 <Brut>	If the scientists are right we have a couple more centuries at best
1025Nov 06 10:35:27 <Brut>	Whoops
1026Nov 06 10:35:36 <Hiero|GM>	Or you could work right now to make thing slightly better, because if everyone makes things slightly better right now, then in 10,000 years everything will be very very good.
1027Nov 06 10:35:36 <Mishie>	How many years have people been saying "Don't worry, things will be better in the future"
1028Nov 06 10:35:38 <Hiero|GM>	And if you do that
1029Nov 06 10:35:47 <Hiero|GM>	you can say that "in 10,000 years, things will be very good"
1030Nov 06 10:35:53 <Brut>	We are making things slightly better
1031Nov 06 10:35:58 <Hiero|GM>	I mean, people said that 10,000 years ago, and things are good right now
1032Nov 06 10:35:59 <Mishie>	But I'm not saying that it will be perfect
1033Nov 06 10:36:20 <Mishie>	I'm not saying that we'll have a perfect government
1034Nov 06 10:36:25 <FossilLord>	Things are incredibly good now, if we compare that to 10,000 years in the past or even 1000 years
1035Nov 06 10:36:28 <Ellardy>	I'll take that bet
1036Nov 06 10:36:28 <Mishie>	I'm not saying that we'll deal with corruption
1037Nov 06 10:36:38 <Ellardy>	(long-term investment right there)
1038Nov 06 10:36:41 <Mishie>	There are just some parts of humanity that are just shitty
1039Nov 06 10:36:46 <Mishie>	And you have to accept the good with the bad
1040Nov 06 10:36:47 <Hiero|GM>	Do you think that in 1 billion years, let us say, we will be able to deal with corruption?
1041Nov 06 10:36:51 <Xepheria>	Hiero, I would not want to live in your 'utopia'
1042Nov 06 10:36:52 <Mishie>	Sure you can minimize it
1043Nov 06 10:36:54 <Hiero|GM>	Because I think that humans will be able to fix corruption in 1 billion years
1044Nov 06 10:37:00 <Mishie>	But free will is a thing
1045Nov 06 10:37:00 <Hiero|GM>	That's a heckuva long tiem
1046Nov 06 10:37:03 <Xepheria>	we wouldn't be human
1047Nov 06 10:37:07 <Xepheria>	after a billion years
1048Nov 06 10:37:10 <Mishie>	It's a pretty important thing
1049Nov 06 10:37:19 <Hiero|GM>	<Elara> (because that's what "perfect" is - inhuman)
1050Nov 06 10:37:22 <Hiero|GM>	^^^^^^^^
1051Nov 06 10:37:23 <Mishie>	okay so
1052Nov 06 10:37:25 <Mishie>	Hiero|GM
1053Nov 06 10:37:32 <Mishie>	Imagine a world where everybody is a robot
1054Nov 06 10:37:33 <Brut>	Hiero, I don't think you understand. The Democrats of America would vote for Trump two terms in a row rather than even think of giving your idea a chance
1055Nov 06 10:37:41 <Mishie>	The rules are hardcoded into their everything
1056Nov 06 10:37:46 <Mishie>	They have to follow them
1057Nov 06 10:37:47 <Brut>	Because your idea goes against every fibre of the first world existence 
1058Nov 06 10:37:52 <Mishie>	No crime, no corruption
1059Nov 06 10:37:56 <Mishie>	Not even the thought of them
1060Nov 06 10:38:02 <Hiero|GM>	Mhm.
1061Nov 06 10:38:09 <Mishie>	Does this sound like your perfect world?
1062Nov 06 10:38:25 <Hiero|GM>	I wouldn't call them robots, but not being able to commit crime or corruption seems pretty perfect to me.
1063Nov 06 10:38:32 <Ellardy>	I'm actually going to put a big "depends" on that
1064Nov 06 10:38:35 <Mishie>	I'm talking literally a robot
1065Nov 06 10:38:36 <Mishie>	like
1066Nov 06 10:38:38 <Hiero|GM>	We could expand that to all sorts of evil as well. Like stealing, or infidelity.
1067Nov 06 10:38:46 <Xepheria>	oh my god
1068Nov 06 10:38:48 <Mishie>	no flesh, just machine
1069Nov 06 10:38:50 <Mishie>	okay
1070Nov 06 10:38:51 <Hiero|GM>	Well, being literally a robot has all sorts of problems.
1071Nov 06 10:38:53 <Hiero|GM>	Like, y'know
1072Nov 06 10:38:54 <Ellardy>	Eh no, you lost me Hiero
1073Nov 06 10:38:56 <FossilLord>	I am no I'm told not to be pedantic here but robot is literally derived from the chez word for slave
1074Nov 06 10:38:57 <Hiero|GM>	not being sapient
1075Nov 06 10:39:03 <Elara>	Hiero what were you quoting me for? Do you disagree? Or agree very strongly? Or what?
1076Nov 06 10:39:05 <Hiero|GM>	unless we're going with AIs or some shit
1077Nov 06 10:39:12 <Mishie>	Hiero|GM: I'm saying that 1000 years from now it is
1078Nov 06 10:39:15 <Mishie>	it's a perfect copy
1079Nov 06 10:39:23 <Mishie>	the only difference is that these laws can't be broken
1080Nov 06 10:39:25 <Hiero|GM>	Elara: I'm saying that it's weird to bring up "we will become inhuman" as an objection to "we will become perfect"
1081Nov 06 10:39:25 <Xepheria>	I would not want to live in your 'utopia'
1082Nov 06 10:39:26 <VereorNox>	Why is the concept
1083Nov 06 10:39:31 <VereorNox>	That people are allowed to make mistakes
1084Nov 06 10:39:32 <Mishie>	hell
1085Nov 06 10:39:32 <Xepheria>	it sounds like absolute hell
1086Nov 06 10:39:33 <VereorNox>	So hard to grasp?
1087Nov 06 10:39:37 <Mishie>	they might not even be machine anymore
1088Nov 06 10:39:44 <Mishie>	they could be robots made of flesh and blood
1089Nov 06 10:39:46 <Elara>	Where did "we" come from?
1090Nov 06 10:39:46 <Hiero|GM>	Mistakes are bad, right?
1091Nov 06 10:39:49 <Xepheria>	No
1092Nov 06 10:39:51 <Hiero|GM>	So wouldn't it be better not to have any?
1093Nov 06 10:39:51 <Xepheria>	they aren't
1094Nov 06 10:39:54 <Mishie>	but the idea of breaking the rules is impossible
1095Nov 06 10:39:56 <Hiero|GM>	They aren't because they help you improve
1096Nov 06 10:39:57 <Brut>	Mistakes are not bad
1097Nov 06 10:40:00 <Elara>	You only want one perfect being to run things
1098Nov 06 10:40:01 <FossilLord>	Learning experience and all that
1099Nov 06 10:40:01 <Ellardy>	Free will requires mistakes
1100Nov 06 10:40:02 <Xepheria>	mistakes are the only way you can grow
1101Nov 06 10:40:12 <VereorNox>	A lot of technologies nowadays wouldn't exist if we didn't have wars. Conflict makes people creative. Mistakes make people want to correct them.
1102Nov 06 10:40:17 <Brut>	They teach that in school still right?
1103Nov 06 10:40:20 <Brut>	I'm not crazy?
1104Nov 06 10:40:22 <Ellardy>	Catholic Church actually had to wrestle with this
1105Nov 06 10:40:26 <Mishie>	Brut: well
1106Nov 06 10:40:27 <Elara>	So you're trying to get something inhumanly perfect to run humanity
1107Nov 06 10:40:30 <VereorNox>	I had it in pedagogy class, Brut
1108Nov 06 10:40:32 <Mishie>	you're right on the first
1109Nov 06 10:40:36 <VereorNox>	Literally the concept of one of the educational sciences
1110Nov 06 10:40:37 <Mishie>	jury is still out on the second
1111Nov 06 10:40:45 <VereorNox>	"Dealing with crisis makes people balanced"
1112Nov 06 10:40:50 <FossilLord>	My grandfathers life was saved by penicillin I wouldn't of been inflicted on you people without it
1113Nov 06 10:40:51 <Hiero|GM>	Mishie: That's fine by me.
1114Nov 06 10:40:53 <Brut>	I respect that judgement, Mishie
1115Nov 06 10:40:53 <Ellardy>	As in, "why did God not make us perfect". Answer: so that we could strive to be more and so that we were free
1116Nov 06 10:40:57 <Mishie>	So stop trying to trick somebody to say you're not crazy :|
1117Nov 06 10:40:59 <Hiero|GM>	That wordl you described, free of corruption or crime or anything like that.
1118Nov 06 10:41:03 <Hiero|GM>	I like that world
1119Nov 06 10:41:09 <Xepheria>	I don't
1120Nov 06 10:41:12 <Xepheria>	fuck that world
1121Nov 06 10:41:17 <Hiero|GM>	You like corruption or crime? 
1122Nov 06 10:41:20 <Hiero|GM>	Or you want to allow them at least?
1123Nov 06 10:41:25 <Xepheria>	I like being able to think for myself
1124Nov 06 10:41:25 <Elara>	Sounds like a dead world
1125Nov 06 10:41:36 <Brut>	^
1126Nov 06 10:41:40 <Xepheria>	and if that requires corruption or crime to exist
1127Nov 06 10:41:41 <Xepheria>	so be it
1128Nov 06 10:41:45 <Ellardy>	Huh. I never really thought about it like that
1129Nov 06 10:41:48 <Elara>	I want a world where people are capable of being corrupt but generally choose not to be
1130Nov 06 10:41:56 <Hiero|GM>	What's the difference?
1131Nov 06 10:41:59 <Ellardy>	What Elara said
1132Nov 06 10:42:08 <Brut>	Hiero, how can you not understand
1133Nov 06 10:42:10 <Hiero|GM>	You just want the choice to be corrupt but choose not to take it? Isn't that just a joke of a choice then?
1134Nov 06 10:42:10 <Xepheria>	Choice
1135Nov 06 10:42:15 *	Hiero|GM is now known as Hierophant
1136Nov 06 10:42:20 <Hierophant>	I mean, I guess something like that's fine
1137Nov 06 10:42:21 <Mishie>	Hiero
1138Nov 06 10:42:23 <Mishie>	the joke is
1139Nov 06 10:42:25 <Elara>	If some people take it but most people don't
1140Nov 06 10:42:31 <Mishie>	Elara wants a world where people don't need to take it
1141Nov 06 10:42:32 <Hierophant>	But as long as corruption isn't actually there it's all god
1142Nov 06 10:42:36 <Elara>	That's very different from the choice not existing
1143Nov 06 10:42:37 <Mishie>	They could steal
1144Nov 06 10:42:39 <Mishie>	But they don't need to
1145Nov 06 10:42:46 <Mishie>	they choose not to do it
1146Nov 06 10:43:01 <Hierophant>	Mishie: What's the difference between my world and Elara's, then? In both worlds 1) People don't steal. 2) People don't need to steal.
1147Nov 06 10:43:08 <Mishie>	A lot
1148Nov 06 10:43:17 <VereorNox>	No
1149Nov 06 10:43:18 <VereorNox>	Hiero
1150Nov 06 10:43:19 <Mishie>	ends vs means
1151Nov 06 10:43:20 <VereorNox>	Your world is
1152Nov 06 10:43:23 <VereorNox>	"People can't steal."
1153Nov 06 10:43:25 <Mishie>	You're looking at the goal
1154Nov 06 10:43:27 <Ellardy>	I leave a bar of chocolate on the table near a kid who's supposed to eat his broccoli first. I hope he doesn't steal the chocolate but I don't want a mind control thing to remove the thought from his brain
1155Nov 06 10:43:30 <VereorNox>	"People can't feel the need to steal."
1156Nov 06 10:43:39 <VereorNox>	You take away choice and accountability
1157Nov 06 10:43:44 <VereorNox>	And erase individuals
1158Nov 06 10:43:50 <Mishie>	Whilst others are looking at how we get to it
1159Nov 06 10:43:57 <Mishie>	which honestly sums up this entire thing
1160Nov 06 10:43:59 <Hierophant>	Okay, I think we're getting somewhere with this. Mishie, what would you call an ideal if not a goal? Isn't it natural for me to look at goals when asked about what my idea of a perfect world is?
1161Nov 06 10:44:01 <VereorNox>	People in your world are devoid of choice and creativity. They're a society of empty husks.
1162Nov 06 10:44:04 <Ellardy>	There can be no "good" actions if the "bad" action was never a possibility
1163Nov 06 10:44:05 <Mishie>	You're so focused on the distant goal
1164Nov 06 10:44:10 <Mishie>	That you don't consider how to get to it
1165Nov 06 10:44:20 <Mishie>	And what the consequences would be of those actions
1166Nov 06 10:44:22 <Elara>	You're trying to skip to the end
1167Nov 06 10:44:23 <Mishie>	or the ramifications
1168Nov 06 10:44:26 <Hierophant>	What do you mean by this?
1169Nov 06 10:44:41 <Ellardy>	There's no overcoming of temptation if there is no temptation in the first place
1170Nov 06 10:44:50 <Elara>	Yes, I think you've picked something out there, Mish
1171Nov 06 10:44:50 <Xepheria>	Your ideals are fundamentally repulsive to any educated or intelligent person
1172Nov 06 10:44:51 <Hierophant>	I'm fine with people telling me there's a better way to get to my ideal, but it would be ridiculous to try to tell me my ideal isn't worth getting to in the first place
1173Nov 06 10:44:57 <Elara>	Xeph stop
1174Nov 06 10:45:01 <Hierophant>	Ellardy: I don't value overcoming of temptation, I value not having temptation, period.
1175Nov 06 10:45:05 *	Arethusa (uid146598@tooting.irccloud.com) has joined
1176Nov 06 10:45:09 <Elara>	That's editorialising and it's also clearly false
1177Nov 06 10:45:16 <Mishie>	"My only dream is a world without thoughtcrime"  Hierophant 2016
1178Nov 06 10:45:35 <Xepheria>	I'm ducking out of this one
1179Nov 06 10:45:42 <Xepheria>	before I say something that'll get me banned
1180Nov 06 10:45:46 *	Xepheria (Josiah@net-kt9tbh.range86-177.btcentralplus.com) has left ("Leaving")
1181Nov 06 10:45:50 <Brut>	I've been in this two fucking hours
1182Nov 06 10:45:52 <Ellardy>	Well I'm slanted because I'm a Christian and believe that God gave us free will
1183Nov 06 10:45:53 <Brut>	I need to see the end
1184Nov 06 10:46:26 <Ellardy>	So temptation has some purpose. Not much point in creating Heaven and then peopling the earth with angels
1185Nov 06 10:46:40 <Hierophant>	Or we could just make all the people angels and move them all to heaven
1186Nov 06 10:46:44 <Hierophant>	:P
1187Nov 06 10:46:48 <FossilLord>	Hierophant: what is your definition of crime because I saw a person smoking a joint a few hours ago, and I've seen two men having sex. These were both crimes at various points in history.
1188Nov 06 10:46:52 <Elara>	That's nice, Ellardy, but possibly we should stop short of dragging theology in here
1189Nov 06 10:46:55 <Ellardy>	But they never chose to love God
1190Nov 06 10:47:07 <Ellardy>	hmm, yeah
1191Nov 06 10:47:15 <Hierophant>	FossilLord: I don't know. But I do know that there's a definition somewhere, and that's something we need to continue to study and work towards.
1192Nov 06 10:47:18 <Elara>	This discussion is big and wandering enough already
1193Nov 06 10:47:29 <Ellardy>	Kinda hard not to when we've gone so existential but I see the point
1194Nov 06 10:47:36 <FossilLord>	I would say the same thing for corruption, Thomas Jefferson did several things during his presidency that would be blatant corruption today
1195Nov 06 10:48:09 <FossilLord>	I'm trying to point out that it's hard to talk about trans gression when there is no agreement on what transgression is
1196Nov 06 10:48:19 <Elara>	Here's the thing - we gradually work out ways to deal with our problems. Not by changing people, but by changing our systems
1197Nov 06 10:48:37 <FossilLord>	It's some people try and go absolute saying all murder is wrong but then we get into right to die discussions
1198Nov 06 10:49:22 <FossilLord>	Hmm 1% battery brb
1199Nov 06 10:50:01 <Ellardy>	Someone give me some good news
1200Nov 06 10:50:18 <Hierophant>	I would agree broadly with Mishie that I'm focusing on the ends rather than the means in this discussion, but I see the ends as more or less disconnected from the means.
1201Nov 06 10:50:26 <VereorNox>	Ellardy: Fossil's battery is low and if his phone turns off he won't participate in this conversation anymore.
1202Nov 06 10:50:27 <Elara>	That's a problem
1203Nov 06 10:50:31 <VereorNox>	That's good, right?
1204Nov 06 10:50:36 <Hierophant>	If you want to discuss "real" politics and talk about the means of getting a perfect society, that's fine. We can do that.
1205Nov 06 10:50:47 <Elara>	The means you use affect the ends you can aim for
1206Nov 06 10:50:58 <Elara>	They're interconnected
1207Nov 06 10:51:02 <Hierophant>	But nobody does it that way - that's putting the cart before the horse.
1208Nov 06 10:51:12 <Hierophant>	You pick an end to strive for, then you discuss how to strive for it with means, yes?
1209Nov 06 10:51:16 <Mishie>	that's
1210Nov 06 10:51:19 <Brut>	The thing is
1211Nov 06 10:51:26 <VereorNox>	It's...
1212Nov 06 10:51:28 <Brut>	No one wants to strive for that 
1213Nov 06 10:51:36 <Mishie>	you're putting the cart literally so far in front of the horse it's on a different continent Hierophant 
1214Nov 06 10:51:36 <Brut>	A dictatorship? Nope
1215Nov 06 10:51:37 <Mishie>	that's you
1216Nov 06 10:51:44 <Mishie>	I can see your cart outside right now
1217Nov 06 10:51:47 <Mishie>	I'm looking at it
1218Nov 06 10:51:54 <Mishie>	whilst Brut has your horse
1219Nov 06 10:51:56 <Ellardy>	Vern: that's the best news there is? :(
1220Nov 06 10:52:04 <Mishie>	that shit isn't going anywhere
1221Nov 06 10:52:13 <Brut>	I'm feeding him my special hay :)
1222Nov 06 10:52:17 <VereorNox>	Buzzfeed wrote an article that was based on actual facts, Ellardy 
1223Nov 06 10:52:30 <VereorNox>	Does that count?
1224Nov 06 10:52:54 <Ellardy>	(Dissociation of ends and means is know as "Machiavelian" for the record. And Mach gets more shit than he deserves tbh)
1225Nov 06 10:53:00 <Ellardy>	Really? It might
1226Nov 06 10:53:04 <Hierophant>	I won't deny the distance is far, and the horse is slow.
1227Nov 06 10:53:11 <Hierophant>	But the distance is finite, and the horse moves, even if slowly.
1228Nov 06 10:53:21 <Brut>	The horse has a degenerative brain disease 
1229Nov 06 10:53:25 <Hierophant>	So, theoretically, the horse should reach the destination at some point.
1230Nov 06 10:53:31 *	Clar (Clarvel@net-f9290j.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net) has joined
1231Nov 06 10:53:31 *	Tin_Mother gives channel operator status to Clar
1232Nov 06 10:53:43 <Mishie>	Hierophant
1233Nov 06 10:53:47 <Ellardy>	Hiero: you're assuming there is an end point; a moment after which we can no longer improve
1234Nov 06 10:53:48 <VereorNox>	Ellardy: http://archive.is/STK63 The topic of it isn't very happy but yes, it's actually a fact-checked article.
1235Nov 06 10:53:49 <Hierophant>	Or, to abandon the metaphor, it might be difficult and unrealistic to get a perfect world of no corruption and no crime, but it will happen eventually, I think.
1236Nov 06 10:53:50 <Mishie>	The analogy is that you've still fujked up
1237Nov 06 10:53:50 <_>	[ Here's What Everyone Got Wrong About That Male Birth Control Study - BuzzFeed News ] - archive.is
1238Nov 06 10:53:55 <Mishie>	like
1239Nov 06 10:54:09 <Mishie>	You're looking so far into the future
1240Nov 06 10:54:15 <Ellardy>	Oh you're aware, nvr mind. It's interesting to note though
1241Nov 06 10:54:16 <Mishie>	that it's pointless
1242Nov 06 10:54:41 <Hierophant>	Huh? Why? 
1243Nov 06 10:54:45 <Hierophant>	It's not like I'm taking my eye off the present
1244Nov 06 10:55:27 <Ellardy>	"And, for obvious ethical reasons, there was no placebo group in this study."
1245Nov 06 10:55:38 *	Ellardy cringes at the thought
1246Nov 06 10:56:14 *	Clarvel has quit (Ping timeout: 181 seconds)
1247Nov 06 10:57:22 <Hierophant>	Okay. I have to go for dinner in a bit, so I'll be leaving this channel soon.
1248Nov 06 10:57:30 <Hierophant>	Might be able to get connection at the dinner place, but maybe not
1249Nov 06 10:58:03 <Hierophant>	So, I just want to thank everyone here for a good discussion. I understand it was heated in some places, but I want to say that I don't have any hard feelings about a disagreement in philosophies and I hope nobody else has hard feelings as well.
1250Nov 06 10:58:20 <Hierophant>	If you really really really want to continue this, you can PM cashy and leave a note for me
1251Nov 06 10:58:47 <Hierophant>	In the end, I think everyone here is trying to do the right thing, so that's good.