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112:18 - Verrenus: just yesterday I finished reading "Origin" by Dan Brown
212:19 - Verrenus: not sure how you feel about him or his books, but to me as both a scientist and a faithful person, it
312:19 - Verrenus: it
412:19 - Verrenus: it's clear that Dan Brown wants to bring science and religion to play nice with one another
512:19 - Verrenus: and the way he's doing that is by writing bestsellers that you can't put down once you start reading them
612:20 - Verrenus: there's some really, really cool stuff in his latest book, which will no doubt become a film very soon
712:20 - Verrenus: if you haven't read it yet, I strongly suggest you do
812:20 - Verrenus: but if you don't like his books, I can sum it if you want
912:21 - Verrenus: sum it up*
1012:22 - Xspy70 | Unikrn.com: I don't know him, and I rarely get to read books, especially now. But I will make a reminder somewhere
1112:23 - Verrenus: you must have heard about "The Da Vinci Code" though
1212:23 - Verrenus: either the book or the film?
1312:23 - Xspy70 | Unikrn.com: ah yeah, heard of that one
1412:23 - Verrenus: well, it's a book in a series writing by Dan Brown
1512:23 - Verrenus: written*
1612:24 - Verrenus: the main character in the books is a Harvard symbology professor who gets wrapped up in thrillers centering on conspiracy theories
1712:25 - Verrenus: in Origin, the plot revolves around a tech inovator and futurist who is assassinated before delivering a presentation that he says will forever make humankind lose its trust in ALL religions
1812:25 - Verrenus: by clearly answering the questions: where do we come from? and where do we go from here?
1912:26 - Xspy70 | Unikrn.com: Oh thats good
2012:26 - Xspy70 | Unikrn.com: very interesting scenario
2112:26 - Verrenus: and by the end of the book, this Harvard professor gets to release his presentation to the world after all
2212:26 - Verrenus: and all of this revelations, which are actually real scientific discoveries that are being worked on right now
2312:26 - Verrenus: do you want to know what I'm talking about?
2412:27 - Xspy70 | Unikrn.com: sure
2512:27 - Verrenus: so here it is
2612:28 - Verrenus: this futurist in the book started his presentation by saying that throughout the many eons of human existence on Earth, people have throughout history and their evolution created deites and gods for each thing they observed in nature, but couldn't at the time understand
2712:28 - Verrenus: the flashes of lighting were attributed to Zeus, the volcanic eruptions to Hephaestus working his underground forge
2812:28 - Verrenus: death to Hades, and so on
2912:29 - Verrenus: lightning*
3012:29 - Verrenus: with time, scientific progress brought irrefutable answers to these phenomena however
3112:29 - Verrenus: so the ancient gods gradually faded into simple myth
3212:29 - Verrenus: no one believes in Zeus today anymore
3312:30 - Verrenus: we know lightning is caused by electrical charges dissipating during a thunderstorm
3412:30 - Verrenus: so clearly a god was not responsible for it
3512:32 - Verrenus: this futurist in the book is an atheist who despises all forms of religion and any superstition, in no small part due to a rough childhood during which he was left orphaned by a father who did not want him and a mother who took her own life for having born a child outside of marriage (which is forbidden by religion)
3612:32 - Verrenus: so his motivation throughout life was to rid humankind of ALL religions for good
3712:33 - Verrenus: and usher in an age when all people of the world come together through scientific breakthroughs
3812:33 - Verrenus: and modern thinking
3912:34 - Verrenus: now, he said that people are religious mostly because they are still afraid and confused about their own reason for existing on Earth
4012:34 - Verrenus: people don't know where we come from
4112:34 - Verrenus: nor what our "destiny" is
4212:34 - Verrenus: what is our purpose in the grand scheme of the Universe?
4312:34 - Verrenus: to which he eventually provides very clear-cut, scientific answers
4412:35 - Verrenus: turns out, humans did evolve from apes, as Darwin discovered
4512:35 - Verrenus: and apes did evolve in turn from other vertebrates stretching back to the formation of the first bacterium in the primordial soup billions of years ago
4612:36 - Verrenus: there was an experiment a few decades ago trying to reproduce the primordial soup and see if they could create life in a lab from essentialy basic elements
4712:36 - Verrenus: but the experiment was flawed, in that life formed over billions of years, and not just a few decades
4812:37 - Verrenus: by replicating the experiment in a computer model, however, the futurist was able to fast-forward time and see how chemical elements started bonding with one another to form amino acids
4912:38 - Verrenus: but still he did not obtain "life" - DNA - even after letting the simulation runs for a long time
5012:39 - Verrenus: he said that was because there was another flaw is his own experimental design, which is now answered by a physics research group at MIT
5112:39 - Verrenus: what this group is working is essentially trying to prove that life can spontaneously appear from just the application of the laws of physics alone
5212:39 - Verrenus: have you heard about entropy?
5312:40 - Verrenus: it's basically the force driving the dissipation of energy in the Universe towards the destruction of order and the creation of chaos
5412:41 - Verrenus: think about building a sand castle on a beach - the tide will eventually erode the castle into nothing but smooth beach again
5512:41 - Xspy70 | Unikrn.com: hmm
5612:41 - Verrenus: think about having nice warm mug of tea or coffee - leave it long enough on a table and it will grow cold
5712:41 - Verrenus: the Universe is constantly trying to dissipate pockets of energy into uniformity
5812:42 - Verrenus: now, the way it does this is by being inventive and using tools
5912:43 - Verrenus: snowflakes are an orderd structure, born out of chaos, to dissipate sunlight more effectively and melt snow
6012:43 - Verrenus: ordered*
6112:43 - Verrenus: otherwise, snow would not melt as easily
6212:43 - Verrenus: this is just one example of how nature creates order from chaos, for the faster and better dissipation of energy
6312:44 - Verrenus: in the primordial soup, it is postulated that amino acids formed and life eventually began because life itself is an excellent tool of dissipating energy
6412:45 - Verrenus: look at what people are doing now - we are constantly using up the Earth's resources, essentially dissipating its energy
6512:45 - Verrenus: to the eventual point of there being no energy left to use
6612:45 - Xspy70 | Unikrn.com: interesting
6712:45 - Verrenus: which to us, having survival instincts, is not good
6812:46 - Verrenus: but to nature is very good, because energy is being dissipated and the laws of physics are maintained
6912:46 - Xspy70 | Unikrn.com: but if nature basically made us to dissipate energy - why would it give us such survival instincts and the capacity to do the opposite of dissipating energy?
7012:47 - Verrenus: yes, because it wants us to be efficient tools
7112:47 - Verrenus: efficient tools adapt and keep on replicating their intended process
7212:48 - Verrenus: efficient tools are smart tools
7312:48 - Verrenus: that do the required job as quickly and efficiently as possible
7412:48 - Verrenus: currently, there is no other species on Earth that does a better job of dissipating energy than we do
7512:48 - Verrenus: so where do we come from?
7612:49 - Verrenus: the application of the laws of physics, mainly entropy
7712:49 - Verrenus: life began because the Universe needs its energy dissipated
7812:49 - Verrenus: and we are the most effective tools for doing so
7912:50 - Verrenus: so we evolved from single-celled organisms to the glorious beings we are now today
8012:50 - Verrenus: but where do we go from here?
8112:50 - Xspy70 | Unikrn.com: nuke nature
8212:50 - Xspy70 | Unikrn.com: xD
8312:50 - Verrenus: what can humankind expect in the future?
8412:50 - Verrenus: the resources of the Earth are dwindling, as expected and wanted by the Universe
8512:51 - Verrenus: if we continue on our present course, we are doomed to die out
8612:51 - Verrenus: just like the dinosaurs, who 65 million years ago went from the dominant species on Earth to being completely extinct
8712:52 - Verrenus: sure, it was something else that brought them all down, not resources being used
8812:52 - Verrenus: but still
8912:52 - Verrenus: well, it turns out that humans will no longer be the dominating species on Earth
9012:53 - Verrenus: by the end of our present lifetimes, humans as we know them today will be gone
9112:53 - Verrenus: because there is another species that is competing with us for dominance already
9212:53 - Verrenus: it's resilient, much more adaptive than we are
9312:54 - Verrenus: and it's already growing by the day at an alarming rate
9412:54 - Verrenus: by 2050, it will be the dominant species on Earth
9512:54 - Xspy70 | Unikrn.com: o shiet
9612:54 - Verrenus: and we will be just a tiny spec of history, just like the dinosaurs
9712:54 - Verrenus: there's no stopping it anymore, not even now
9812:55 - Verrenus: it's too late already
9912:55 - Verrenus: you know how there are six kingdoms of life on Earth?
10012:55 - Xspy70 | Unikrn.com: yeah?
10112:56 - Verrenus: there's Archaea (the very oldest bacteria ever), Bacteria, Protista, Fungi, Plants, Animals and Humans
10212:57 - Verrenus: this new species is going to swallow everything up whole, starting with us
10312:57 - Verrenus: because it's essentially another kingdom of life, the seventh
10412:57 - Verrenus: that secretly flourished throughout the ages
10512:57 - Verrenus: without us even knowing
10612:58 - Verrenus: or even begin to comprehend what its implication might be
10712:58 - Verrenus: the seventh kingdom of life, which will dominate the Earth within our current lifetimes, is being now called "Technium"
10812:58 - Verrenus: it's the kingdom of technology itself
10912:58 - Xspy70 | Unikrn.com: I knew it!
11012:58 - Verrenus: yes, Terminator style
11112:59 - Xspy70 | Unikrn.com: immediately threw away my toaster
11212:59 - Verrenus: Terminator comes to mind, of course
11312:59 - Verrenus: but Terminator is an extreme example of technology taking over mankind by force
11412:59 - Verrenus: and that will simply not be the case
11512:59 - Xspy70 | Unikrn.com: aww
11613:00 - Xspy70 | Unikrn.com: lame ass superior kingdom
11713:00 - Xspy70 | Unikrn.com: xD
11813:00 - Verrenus: here's why the future is not scary at all, but rather brighter than ever before
11913:00 - Verrenus: EVER before
12013:00 - Verrenus: have you noticed the increased talk of artificial intelligence lately?
12113:00 - Verrenus: there are already AI's living in our world
12213:01 - Verrenus: and they cannot be shut down anymore, because they live on the WWW
12313:01 - Verrenus: you probably have used the services of one already
12413:01 - Verrenus: Google Translate
12513:01 - Verrenus: Google Translate is an AI that is learning to become better at its job every time people submit corrections to it
12613:02 - Verrenus: which is MILLIONS of times every dya
12713:02 - Verrenus: day*
12813:02 - Xspy70 | Unikrn.com: oh man
12913:02 - Xspy70 | Unikrn.com: my friend would totally love this book
13013:02 - Verrenus: since intelligence refers to the ability to make increasingly complex connections
13113:03 - Verrenus: and consciousness is basically a sum of connections that an individual made throughout his or her life
13213:03 - Verrenus: AI's will soon become conscious of their own existence
13313:03 - Verrenus: but will be VASTLY more intelligent than humankind
13413:03 - Verrenus: and I mean VASTLY
13513:04 - Verrenus: but while higher intelligence can bring with it coldness and contempt
13613:04 - Verrenus: (see how humans mercilessly hunt down poor animals for sport)
13713:04 - Verrenus: it also breeds compassion and empathy
13813:05 - Verrenus: (how we are trying to save the Earth though renewable energy sources, recycling waste, protecting endangered species)
13913:05 - Verrenus: so AI's being vastly smarted than us, will most likely not want to kills us off
14013:05 - Verrenus: they will almost surely help us manage the Earth A LOT better than we possibly can today
14113:06 - Verrenus: they will model every possible scenario and help us avert disaster and extinction
14213:06 - Verrenus: they will teach us how best to manage our resources and help our colonisation of other worlds
14313:07 - Verrenus: they will help us develop clean, unlimited sources of energy
14413:07 - Verrenus: no one will go hungry again
14513:07 - Verrenus: no more wars will be fought over resources
14613:07 - Verrenus: we humans will all live fulfiling lives of plenty and richness
14713:08 - Verrenus: because AI's will keep us from making the mistakes we are making today
14813:08 - Verrenus: and they will do so out of empathy for our mortal condition
14913:08 - Verrenus: just like we nurture animals and plants
15013:09 - Verrenus: and how some pets out in the world live better lives than MILLIONS of actual people in the poor countries of the world
15113:10 - Verrenus: the future is actually bright through the prospect of technological advancement
15213:10 - Verrenus: but you might be wondering, by 2050 it is expected that technology will be the dominant species on Earth
15313:10 - Verrenus: so where does that leave us?
15413:11 - Verrenus: Singularity - the complete melding of man and machine into an entirely new species
15513:11 - Verrenus: today's humans will be that time's Neanderthals
15613:11 - Xspy70 | Unikrn.com: Neanderthals?
15713:12 - Verrenus: mhm, cave men
15813:12 - Verrenus: that's how much of a leap it will be in our evolution
15913:12 - Verrenus: and it's happening today, all around us
16013:12 - Verrenus: did you consider that it's actually what we are doing right now, for instance?
16113:13 - Verrenus: we are communicating through a computer - two former complete strangers
16213:13 - Verrenus: we would not have met otherwise, if technology and our love of gaming had not brought us together
16313:14 - Verrenus: a simple walk outside reveals people browsing the Internet on their phones
16413:14 - Verrenus: listening to music on headphones
16513:14 - Verrenus: heck, small children playing on tablets
16613:14 - Verrenus: man and machine, closer together than ever before
16713:15 - Verrenus: soon enough we will have cybernetic implants like you see in Deus Ex
16813:15 - Verrenus: cybernetic bodies, like in Ghost in the Shell
16913:15 - Verrenus: and man and technology will continue to come together more and more, until they are one
17013:15 - Verrenus: one and the same
17113:15 - Verrenus: a totally, completely new species
17213:16 - Xspy70 | Unikrn.com: Wouldn't that be augmentation though?
17313:16 - Verrenus: nope
17413:16 - Verrenus: think transferring your consciouness to an immortal machine body
17513:16 - Verrenus: that's something Singularity will achieve
17613:17 - Verrenus: it will make possible to conquering of the stars, finally
17713:17 - Verrenus: and all so we can fulfill the Universe's laws better
17813:17 - Verrenus: "don't just use up the Earth's resources, there's an infinite Universe out there"
17913:18 - Verrenus: "go and claim ALL of it"
18013:18 - Verrenus: so you might be thinking at this point
18113:18 - Verrenus: where does all of this leave God?
18213:18 - Verrenus: what need would the people of the future even have for religion at all?
18313:18 - Verrenus: and here's the twist
18413:19 - Verrenus: God is not dead
18513:19 - Verrenus: religions won't disappear
18613:19 - Verrenus: for one, who designed the incredibly elegant laws of physics themselves?
18713:19 - Verrenus: which so systematically gave rise to us?
18813:20 - Xspy70 | Unikrn.com: so the scientist was wrong?
18913:20 - Verrenus: do you know the difference between a code and a pattern?
19013:20 - Verrenus: no, he was simply too hateful against religion
19113:21 - Verrenus: and he erroneously thought his discovery was killing God off
19213:21 - Verrenus: but it doesn't
19313:21 - Xspy70 | Unikrn.com: so perhaps the 8th kingdom of life will be answering that qeuestion?
19413:21 - Xspy70 | Unikrn.com: what evolves out of AI?
19513:21 - Verrenus: he was actually trying to teach to the world to get rid of bad religions
19613:21 - Xspy70 | Unikrn.com: I see
19713:21 - Verrenus: religions that get people killed in terrorist attacks
19813:22 - Verrenus: I am a Christian, for instance
19913:22 - Verrenus: I believe in God
20013:22 - Verrenus: but I also believe in human evolution
20113:22 - Verrenus: so I automatically do not believe in the literal existence of Adam and Eve
20213:23 - Verrenus: how can just to individuals populate a planet without the problems inherent to inbreeding? ;)
20313:23 - Verrenus: two*
20413:23 - Xspy70 | Unikrn.com: exactly xD
20513:23 - Verrenus: it's impossible
20613:23 - Xspy70 | Unikrn.com: my first question when I heard that xD
20713:23 - Xspy70 | Unikrn.com: thats why I'm an atheist xD
20813:23 - Verrenus: so it's important to remember this
20913:23 - Verrenus: religions should not be fixed
21013:23 - Verrenus: religions should be a work in progress, just like science!
21113:24 - Verrenus: one should not invalidate the other, but rather fill in its blanks
21213:24 - Verrenus: religions should not insist that man came from Adam and Eve, but should embrance Darwinian evolution
21313:25 - Verrenus: it's scientifically proven that that's out actual origin
21413:25 - Verrenus: our*
21513:25 - Verrenus: there's no point supporting the biblical Creation anymore
21613:25 - Verrenus: but there is something religion will always be able to provide
21713:26 - Verrenus: and that is the moral compass required for wielding scientific progress responsibly and with compassion
21813:27 - Verrenus is now Online.
21913:27 - Xspy70 | Unikrn.com: Welp, that's a lot to process. If you got all that from the book - that's one helluva book. I am really intrigued. I don't believe in religions present but I do tend to believe there is something that initiated it all. Something you can label God, just not in the way presented to us nowadays
22013:28 - Verrenus: yup, I actually got this from ONE book
22113:28 - Verrenus: Origin, by Dan Brown
22213:28 - Verrenus: which is just the latest book in his series focusing on the adventures of Robert Langdon, the Harvard symbology professor who is the main character
22313:29 - Verrenus: you should read all of them - Angels and Demons, The Da Vinci Code, The Lost Symbol, Inferno and now Origin
22413:29 - Verrenus: as an atheist, I am sure you keep an open mind about everything
22513:30 - Verrenus: so please read all of them, since Dan Brown's goal with these books is to educate the world on how religion and science are not mutually exclusive
22613:30 - Verrenus: and he provides a charismatic answer to the existence of God
22713:31 - Verrenus: beyond the fact that the laws of physics are so simple and elegant that they cannot be the result of chaos itself
22813:31 - Verrenus: I mentioned codes and patterns before
22913:31 - Verrenus: patters are repeating sequences that are naturally formed
23013:32 - Verrenus: the fractal shell of a nautilus sea slug
23113:32 - Verrenus: a snowflake
23213:32 - Verrenus: the leaves of a tree
23313:32 - Verrenus: they are just nature doing its thing, basically
23413:32 - Verrenus: codes, however, are different
23513:32 - Verrenus: codes ALWAYS convey meaning
23613:32 - Verrenus: they are a source of information
23713:33 - Verrenus: and they cannot exist without some form of intelligence creating them
23813:33 - Verrenus: by codes I refer to stuff like writing, musical notes, emblems and so forth
23913:34 - Verrenus: well guess what - at some point in the primordial soup, nucleotides were formed
24013:34 - Verrenus: they assembled into a helix
24113:34 - Verrenus: and then another helix, joined to the first
24213:34 - Verrenus: which gave rise to DNA
24313:34 - Verrenus: which, in turn, gave rise to all life as we know it
24413:34 - Verrenus: how do people refer to this miracle?
24513:35 - Verrenus: the genetic CODE
24613:35 - Verrenus: the one code that exists in the world that humans did not create themselves
24713:35 - Verrenus: so who wrote this particular code then? ;)
24813:36 - Verrenus: something other than us
24913:36 - Verrenus: a form of intelligence that we cannot yet precisely name
25013:36 - Verrenus: but that in all likelihood is the God mentioned in every modern religion
25113:37 - Verrenus: the name is not relevant
25213:37 - Verrenus: I think God is actually the supreme intelligence of the Universe
25313:37 - Verrenus: impossible to currently comprehend by our tiny minds
25413:38 - Verrenus: but that one day, science will provide a definitive answer
25513:38 - Verrenus: this is what God actually is
25613:38 - Verrenus: and this is why the Universe has all of these laws that is has
25713:38 - Verrenus: truly thought-provoking stuff, I really urge you to read Dan Brown's books when you can
25813:39 - Verrenus: as an atheist, you are probably appalled by the damage people do to the world and each other in the name of religion
25913:39 - Verrenus: and you're thinking how much better lives we would all live if it not for antiqued, superstitious thinking
26013:40 - Verrenus: but as a faithful person myself, that's not how I view religion
26113:40 - Verrenus: nor how I view God
26213:40 - Verrenus: I view religion as a set of rules for living harmoniously with one another, without hate and discrimination
26313:41 - Verrenus: I obviously do not agree with the antiquated shunning of gay people
26413:41 - Verrenus: my adage is "live and let live" - no one should just another person for his/her sexuality
26513:41 - Verrenus: because religion should be about love
26613:42 - Verrenus: gay people also love one another, so who are the religious faithfull to outlaw their marriage?
26713:42 - Verrenus: to deny their love and happiness?
26813:42 - Verrenus: that is simply unacceptable to me
26913:43 - Verrenus: and I wholeheartedly support the modernisation of religion
27013:43 - Verrenus: we cannot simply believe everything outlined in a book written 2000 years ago
27113:43 - Verrenus: nor should we live entirely by what it teaches
27213:43 - Verrenus: but we, as intelligent being, should learn from our past mistakes and not repeat them in the future
27313:44 - Verrenus: so we can continue going forward, not backwards
27413:44 - Verrenus: and the Bible provides some good points for doing so
27513:44 - Verrenus: centering our lives around helping and loving one another
27613:44 - Verrenus: so that everyone has a chance at prospering
27713:45 - Verrenus: and God - well, God has always been written to having been here
27813:45 - Verrenus: whether people actually believe it or not
27913:46 - Verrenus: so I am positively sure at some point we will also have scientific proof of divine existence
28013:46 - Verrenus: we just won't find a bearded man in the sky :))
28113:47 - Verrenus: but an elegant Universal intelligence, subtely guiding everything from the background - that's how I view God
28213:47 - Xspy70 | Unikrn.com: I see
28313:47 - Verrenus: to what purpose are we being driven to dissipate energy this effectively?
28413:47 - Verrenus: no one knows thus far
28513:48 - Verrenus: it's another mystery waiting to be solved
28613:48 - Verrenus: science will be there to provide the answer, and religion will be there to provide the moral compass so that it does not get missused