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1[ryan_singer 131d] Attention @channel!
2I have just created a new channel in team _chia_network.public_. Here are some things that are now different:
31.) Notifications will not happen for every message. Click or tap the info icon on the right to configure them.
42.) The #general channel is now in the "Big Teams" section of the inbox.
53.) You can hit the three dots next to chia_network.public in the inbox view to join other channels.
6Enjoy!
7[smga3000 123d] This is a very exciting initiative, it's what I have been waiting for tech wise.
8[nisc3d 123d] hi
9[monteiro 123d] hello all
10[nisc3d 123d] Will chia be a coin?
11[ryan_singer 123d] Yes, Chia will function much like bitcoin, having it's own cryptocurrency network
12[nisc3d 123d] Will there be an ico?
13[monteiro 123d] Chia will be sold to the public next year to allow everyone to invest in a better digital money.
14Subscribe to the announcements list to learn more.
15[monteiro 123d] its in the website
16[monteiro 123d] sold to the public = ICO
17[nisc3d 123d] ok
18[nisc3d 123d] Will you be able to mine chia coins?
19[monteiro 123d] it sounds they will premine them, offer it to friends and pump the rest to us
20[monteiro 123d] or maybe i'm just cynical, i'm sorry
21[nisc3d 123d] I hope there will be no premine and a fair distribution. This has so much potential. There are so many people searching for another proof of space coin.
22[monteiro 123d] I agree with you, @nisc3d
23[maestroeth 123d] I wonder if it will be the same type of ICO(SAFT)  that Civic, Filecoin etc have done 506c for accredited only types. Too bad if so.
24[ryan_singer 123d] Right now, we are exploring a way to do an SEC compliant public offering to all investors, not just accredited. We'll release information as we get it from our lawyers and the SEC
25[ryan_singer 123d] The primary issuance for both the company and the investors will be written once into the genesis block; after which the company does not plan participate in farming (our mining analogue)
26[nisc3d 123d] It can be mined with hdd's, right?
27[monteiro 123d] *farmed :grin:
28[monteiro 123d] if this pans out we better buy Fujitsu and NetApp stocks, with all the storage needed
29[ryan_singer 123d] Yes, Chia farming has two components: proof of hard disk space, and proof of wall clock time. A hard disk will have it's empty space filled with randomly generated proofs. @bramcohen will be releasing more white papers, video and code demonstrating the mechanics in the coming months.
30[ryan_singer 123d] Basically, the mechanic is: your hard disk is "seeded" with proofs, and you farm them by checking every time you see a block for your closest proof, which sets the difficulty for your proof of time.
31[nisc3d 123d] And if you have more disk space, you have a better chance of forging a block, right?
32[bramcohen 123d] Your chances of farming the next block are directly proportional to your amount of disk space
33[nisc3d 123d] ok nice
34[nisc3d 123d] How much could you farm with 1 tb at the start? What would you think?
35[nisc3d 123d] Would 1 tb be much?
36[bramcohen 123d] 1tb is likely to be around a minimum, maybe it will be closer to 100gb
37[nisc3d 123d] Ok very nice
38[nisc3d 123d] Sorry for the noob questions.
39[mbarkhau 122d] is the idea that the PoS and PoT are provided by the same farmer?
40[mbarkhau 122d] or is the idea that the PoW won't be very difficult to generate?
41[mbarkhau 122d] or can those be generated seperately?
42[mbarkhau 122d] PoT i mean
43[nisc3d 122d] Btw. How does proof of time works?
44[rickstefanowski 122d] Hi, glad to be here. I found out about this project from a Cedric Dahl video, and I found him as he was talking a lot about Filecoin. I am interested in learning more and possibly investing when the sale happens.
45[smga3000 122d] I watched a video of Bram yesterday where he went over all the PoS and PoT details, it was very interesting. https://www.facebook.com/BerkeleyBlockchain/videos/2006069823011271/
46[smga3000 122d] filecoin is a bad joke (IMO)
47[welfarerelax 122d] Hi guys! Very impressive math that really solves some of Bitcoin's biggest problems. I guess the hope for bitcoin always was that mining eventually would become decentralized. And that people would find a use for the generated heat, in some way. Maybe use a mining rig instead of an electric water heater. This seems like a possible scenario as we approach the end of Moore's law. Love to get you're comments on this. Thanks!
48[nisc3d 122d] What do you guys think of burst?
49[nisc3d 122d] And how is chia better?
50[ryan_singer 122d] Because burstcoin doesn't have the proof of time component, there are some attacks that make it unsuitable as a mining algorithm.
51[smga3000 122d] ryan, I left you a PM, this keybase is new for me, so not sure if you got it
52[nisc3d 122d] ok
53[welfarerelax 122d] Also, i would very much like to buy some tokens with bitcoins. Or maybe consider doing a kickstarter? I'm from Sweden so if we could
54maybe try and make it available to all countries.
55[cyptogeek 122d] I heard Bram say that "why release an ICO? If your idea is good, then just release it. ICO's seem like a scam to me". Is there a better way to pay the development team for their efforts?!
56[nisc3d 122d] yeah, an ico would look bad
57[ryan_singer 122d] I wouldn't think of it as an ICO. We intend to do a regulated public offering where the investors will have actual rights as investors.
58[bramcohen 122d] We have enough development work to do that raising funds is necessary to make it happen. We're going to try to do so in a way which is as transparent and open to the public as possible
59[cyptogeek 121d] If you had Chia act as a currency and as a fileserver this would bypass the complicated SEC IPO. I think an ICO is going to bring in more money than an IPO because it opens it up to the masses. A way it could be legitimised is by giving investors a % of hosting space that also = currency. Like sia coin. You could even set this as an IOU. "You will receive 1mb of storage for each chia", but then remove this link after n blocks. Making them seperate entities (soft fork)
60[ryan_singer 121d] 👍
61[cyptogeek 121d] If you had Chia act as a currency and as a fileserver this would bypass the complicated SEC IPO. I think an ICO is going to bring in more money than an IPO because it opens it up to the masses. A way it could be legitimised is by giving investors a %!o(MISSING)f hosting space that also = currency. Like sia coin. You could even set this as an IOU. "You will receive 1mb of storage for each chia", but then remove this link after n blocks. Making them seperate entities (soft fork)
62[cyptogeek 121d] Basically remove the link file storage / currency link with a softfork
63[bramcohen 121d] 'proof of space' is not actually storage. Storage is of something directly useful and requires lots of bandwidth. Proofs of space are of data which is useless for anything but generating proofs of space and making it requires essentially no bandwidth
64[hoffmang 121d] A registered ICO is not an IPO at all. It also has a lot of benefits in reducing regulatory uncertainty over the long haul.
65[ezredd 121d] Proof of Space/Time (PoST) sounds pretty relativistic, Einstein would like it ;)
66[smga3000 121d] Ilan at Resillio sent me your co-authored white paper on PoS about a month ago, it was way over my head, but I love this direction. Do you envision this to be purely a currency or a platform for smart contracts or the like? My interest is in building specific application technology that doesn't necessarily have to be distributed on every node around the world.
67[welfarerelax 121d] If you have a system that is set up so that it doesn't make sense to invest in more hardware. There already is so much sitting idle, and there is no running costs from farmers for burning electricity. You would have a lot less downward pressure on price because there is no need to sell, so the positive feedback loop of more users leading to higher price leading to more users should get more intensified. Right now in Bitcoin the running costs of miners gets transferred on to the hodlers, and this cost is huge. A system like chia would make it much cheaper to be a hodler. It'
68s really a hodlers coin! Maybe what i am saying is obvious but i am trying to value this thing. If it works it could take off like a rocket imho.
69[spaceballs 121d] Hi, i like the idea to raise an eco friendly payment network.
70I have the following tech question:
71Which transaction speed is planned to achieve for a single payment transaction?
72[ryan_singer 121d] Hi @spaceballs ; Chia will support lightning Network out of the box, so payment speed will depend on whether there is an available lightning path. Lightning transactions take less than a few seconds on reasonable Network latencies. Our block times for on chain transactions will be similar to Bitcoin.
73[bramcohen 120d] The plan for smart contracts is that it's 'a better bitcoin', basically following the roadmap which Bitcoin should have, hopefully does have, and we'll be coordinating work to try to get features in both. Initial development is entirely around things which can't be easily soft forked, so scripting won't change substantially but we are switching to BLS signatures which have a lot of benefit for smart contracts because of their aggregation properties. After the initial release focus will be on supporting lightning as it is today, adding in off-chain channels, supporting MAST and
74 probably simplicity and covenants to support vaults
75[bramcohen 120d] @welfarerelax That's an interesting point. It's probably true that farmers are going to have a lot less urgency to sell their rewards than Bitcoin miners do to sell theirs, although I think some Bitcoin miners do a lot of sitting on rewards as well
76[smga3000 120d] Understanding that you are still in the design phase, is the goal with smart contracts to use an existing language or languages as opposed to creating a new one like Ethereum did?
77[cyptogeek 120d] I know you guys have literally just launched Chia, I have to admit I was obsessed checking @bramcohen's twitter every day for months for updates, so excuse my enthusiasm. Any idea of ETA for a roadmap or are you waiting for funding before pursuing definitive roadmaps?
78[bramcohen 120d] @smga3000 Going to be going with minimally modified Bitcoin script for startes (switch to BLS signatures) and longer term probably going with Simplicity
79[bramcohen 120d] @cyptogeek All the usual difficulties of developing software apply. There's a long list of stuff to do and we have stretch goals of doing some kind of sale in Q2 and launching by end of '18 but can't promise anything
80[paulg2 120d] Genius.
81[paulg2 120d] Found this via Marshall Hayner :the_horns:
82[ryan_singer 120d] 👍
83[paulg2 120d] Thank you @bramcohen
84[paulg2 120d] :pray:
85[bramcohen 120d] @smga3000 We're trying to as close as possible be Bitcoin with a swap-in replacement of the consensus algorithm and minor other cleanups. Following the same smart contract roadmap as there is for Bitcoin
86[smga3000 120d] Thank you for that information @bramcohen I wasn't aware. I'd be very interested in doing an interview with you guys on the project for an article in iCrunchData. I mentioned it to ryan the other day. I've been very interested in what you'd come up with. We talked in the early days of bittorrent, I don't know if you recall from my company The Kompany.com
87[maestroeth 120d] @ryan_singer Fantastic nes.. that sounds like a RegA+ round .. similar to what Gab is doing?  https://medium.com/@getongab/announcing-the-worlds-first-reg-a-ico-e9965c61669b
88[ryan_singer 120d] We'll see. Right now we're just testing the waters and exploring options with counsel and regulators.
89[ryan_singer 120d] That's what we're hoping for, though
90[maestroeth 120d] Kudo's if you guys decide to go through that model!
91[codingbrian 119d] I have so many questions, but don't want to harass (sorry if this is too much). (1) Why PoS/T instead of something useful? (2) You appear to be following closely to the Bitcoin roadmap, could you not just hard-fork Bitcoin?  (3) Other than a better mining method, is there any "killer feature" that Chia will have (other than the man/people behind it)?
92[codingbrian 119d] Disregard the hardfork question. Nobody wants more Bitcoin forks. There's good reasons we have a Litecoin and not a BitcoinLite.
93[kevinrose 119d] hi all :wave:
94[ryan_singer 119d] Hi @kevinrose
95[mbarkhau 119d] may not be kevin rose, at least keybase says unverified for his other accounts
96[codingbrian 119d] I think I can answer my question #1, and somebody can correct me if I'm wrong. Proof of space/time alone is used because something useful would also require much more bandwidth, and this isn't intended to be proof of space/time/bandwidth.
97[kevinrose 119d] oh, @mbarkhau I didn't know I had to keep the tweets live
98[kevinrose 119d] I thought it was a one-time thing and then I could delete them
99[bramcohen 119d] @codingbrian PoST is used because it's the only thing I have a roadmap for which actually seems to work. The reasons why other things don't work are myriad and complex, but yes one of the issues is that proof of actual storage requires ridiculous amounts of bandwidth. Also has lots of other issues
100[ryan_singer 119d] @kevinrose the cool thing about keybase's social network integration is that the posts make it easy to tell the difference betwee a real kevin and a fake kevin :-)
101[ryan_singer 119d] This is actually the main reason we decided on keybase instead of discord
102[cyptogeek 119d] Your intro needs improvement; Digital Money is being increasingly demanded by individual and institutional investors. Chia can help traditional financial institutions meet that demand.
103[cyptogeek 119d] An individual investor is not a financial institution. "That" demand;  leads on from individual investors, thus is out of context.
104[cyptogeek 118d] Money doesn't have a specific use case to industry. I can see why you're trying to prompt investment from this sector, but it needs to be bigger than a facility that industry can use. It needs to be the next money. I'm pleased you haven't over sold it with hyped promises, your POST is big enough, it sells itself. Good luck guys and I'm looking forward to finding out how I can invest as I have alot of faith in Bram.
105[curiousg 118d] @bramcohen or @ryan_singer - Good project guys. Couple of questions. Is there a hard limit on the number of coins that will be in circulation? Also - sent you an email to jobs@chia.network. Would like to get involved in a more hands-on fashion. Can help with tech and/or reulatory issues. See email from ob****@gmail.com.  Would appreciate a reply either way.
106[ryan_singer 118d] Hi @curiousg I didn't see the email, I'll check to make sure the jobs list is working. We haven't announced the token economics publicly yet, but we will soon.
107[mbarkhau 118d] did the techcrunch guy write this up?
108https://tctechcrunch2011.files.wordpress.com/2017/11/chia-cryptocurrency.png?w=768&h=574
109[mbarkhau 118d] or where is it from?
110[mbarkhau 118d] in any case, if it's accurate I would say it should be one of the first things people read (minus the typos)
111[ryan_singer 118d] The techcrunch guy built that from his notes talking to Bram. It is accurate for current plans.
112[mbarkhau 118d] hmm, now that I read over it, how are the "three best proofs" determined. i guess a farmer broadcasts his best proof which satisfies the current difficulty maybe?
113[mbarkhau 118d] might end up being chatty though
114[ryan_singer 118d] The difficulty is the product of the quality of the proof of space and the quality of the proof of time. @bramcohen can give more depth here
115[frogger 118d] @ryan_singer just added you as moderator of /r/chianetwork
116[ryan_singer 118d] Thanks!
117[mbarkhau 118d] ok, but assuming any given difficulty, i'm guessing the number of PoS in the network which satisfy it is not limited to just three
118[mbarkhau 118d] so you might have a lot of proofs being chatted across the network
119[mbarkhau 118d] and maybe nodes supressing other nodes proofs
120[ryan_singer 118d] When a node finds out about a better proof than the ones it's tracking, it starts tracking the better one instead
121[mbarkhau 118d] i guess if you don't have a better proof yourself, there's no incentive to supress another one
122[mbarkhau 118d] anyway, interesting stuff
123[mbarkhau 118d] do I understand the the concurrent chains idea correctly: you reduce the chain reorganizations/orphan blocks while maintaining the same rate of block generation?
124[ryan_singer 118d] Yes. The idea is to reduce the likelyhood of a surprising reorg.
125[mbarkhau 118d] interesting, is the number 3 random? why not 5 or 10?
126[mbarkhau 118d] now that I think about it, maybe you don't want to divide your hash power up so much
127[mbarkhau 118d] also an interestin thing about the incentives here: if the PoS and PoW both use the same hash algorithm, there is no incentive for somebody who wants to calculate a PoS on the fly, they might as well try to get the next block by trying to calculate a PoW (assuming there is at least some reward for that)
128[mbarkhau 118d] is it ok for me to ask a few more questions for clarification?
129[mbarkhau 118d] i've tried reading the paper, but i's a bit over my head
130[ryan_singer 118d] @bramcohen can answer the more technical questions when he is free later.
131[neumedia 118d] Hi all,
132Thanks for adding me go the group. This is a very interesting and needed concept. I have a few questions, if you don’t mind…
1331)      Assuming a 1 TB minimum in PoS, would this space be allocated locally or simply verified? If allocated, would it be filled? If filled, would r/w times be taken into account by the PoS algorithm, like PoT is now?
1342)      If TB is the mechanism for proof, would not this lead to the same decentralization as we see now in BTC, as storage farms would spring up for HD storage (with better Read/Write efficiency?).
135In any event, I'll keep posted on the progress. Thanks.
136[ryan_singer 118d] Proofs of space fill the hard drive, but can then be deallocated and accessed via the raw disk API. Read/write efficiency only matters while initially seeding a hard disk, not during ongoing farming.
137[neumedia 118d] @ryan_singer Thanks. Is there a limit on the duration farming takes place before a new seed is required, or is the seed a 1x event (like a block-chain download)? I ask because of the possible benifit of SSD storage vs disk when farming.
138[ryan_singer 118d] Seeding is a process that requires reading and writing every sector more than once; but once a drive is seeded you will be able to farm it for as long as the proofs remain on disk.
139[culv3r 118d] Thanks to the development team for their work in this so far. I've been very intrigued by the technical papers that have come out recently regarding SpaceMint and other viable PoS solutions that don't fail on time based attacks.
140[neumedia 118d] @ryan_singer Thanks again. I've yet to read the white paper, so my appologies if my questions are naive. Is there a concept of "difficulty" as the farming progresses? If so, will this require additional storage for the new difficulty progressively like PoW currently requires more time?
141[ryan_singer 118d] Like Bitcoin, difficulty will dynamically adjust to keep block time regular. As a result, as farming competition goes up, you can expect rewards from a particular disk to go down. We do not expect farming to have a high enough expected value to be worth purchasing drives in order to farm.
142[neumedia 118d] Stop me if I get too proprietary. How will you be reading the drives?
143 Will sectors be read low-level or through the OS? I ask because higher level would allow volume spanning across multiple drives. Low level might not.  Also, is their any indication right now how often a drive (via competition) should be cleared and reseeded? Are we talking days, weeks, months... or unknown at this point? This goes back to the SSD vs Drive benefits and, as you might have guessed, centralization concerns.
144[ryan_singer 118d] Drives will be read using low-level direct access API's. The client will support seeding multiple drives. The only reason to re-seed a drive is if too many of the existing proofs have been over-written. Re-seeding gives no advantage normally
145[mbarkhau 118d] @ryan_singer I think you won't get around having to do periodic rewrite or at least resorting of the proofs stored on disk, otherwise farmers would specialize by using a write once medium and then the whole eco friendlyness/decentralization is out the window
146[ryan_singer 118d] The seeding process requires multiple rounds of sort, pair and re-write, so in order to seed a write once media, you would need a larger normal hard drive doing the whole seeding process
147[mbarkhau 118d] i think a lightbulb just went off
148[mbarkhau 118d] does this imply that there is a minimum disk requirement for a farmer?
149[mbarkhau 118d] or can I have a 1GB drive to farm, with a theoretical but negligible chance of finding a valid proof
150[ryan_singer 118d] No minimum disk, but like you say the odds are long
151[mbarkhau 118d] then i don't get it
152[chris 118d] Excited to watch what happens with Chia. Good luck team!  As you can imagine, we at Keybase all watch the cryptocurrency space.
153Btw we'll be rolling out some features in the next couple releases to make Keybase work better with community chats...you'll even be able to promote this team on your keybase profile to draw attention to it.
154[mbarkhau 118d] @chris allow me to increase the font size and I'll be happy ;-)
155[chris 118d] noted :-)
156[swarooph 118d] I was just about to +1 react to @mbarkhau's message (slack habit). Eager to see keybase being used for more community chats!
157[mbarkhau 118d] *alternatively everybody just start writing in bold to compensate a little*
158[monteiro 118d]  notifications don't work sometimes!
159[mbarkhau 118d] @chris apropos, is there a keybase channel ?
160[cyptogeek 118d] @chris edit spelling mistakes doesn't always work on Android.
161[chris 118d] there is a `keybasefriends` team for discussing keybase generally. I don't read it too carefully but look at all more official feedback.  So people don't clutter up this channel with keybase feedback for me:  the best way to send us bug reports is `keybase log send` from terminal or on phone `settings > feedback` .
162[ryan_singer 118d] Thanks @chris ; @bramcohen and I are very impressed by teams and keybase git
163[chris 118d] thanks @ryan_singer ! we're working hard. it'll get better, too...still pretty rough around the edges.
164[ryan_singer 118d] @chris : feature request: pull requests ;-)
165[chris 118d] yeah, what would be really awesome would be a github like experience at a locally served website. that would be awesome.
166we're actually unlikely to work much on new git-related features (unless bugs come up) for the next 3-4 months, as the team management and general UX needs a lot of improvements. but that would be cool.
167[monteiro 118d]  Hacker News discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15655840
168[earlofgrey 118d] If this is a storage over gpu project its perfect timing because I have recently been working on building clusters of hard drives for a project
169[neumedia 118d] @earlofgrey  That’s the question, isn’t it? In ten years, will your 5 TB USB external drive be the equivalent of a USB miner for BTC today? Will multi-petabyte farms then centralize the farming like China did mining for Bitcoin?
170It’s unclear at the moment, as the PoS and PoW ratios are worked out. This is certainly a better energy saving alternative to PoW crypto mining alone, but the same limitations creating the same centralizations seem to be there, just extended out over time. Nevertheless, better is better, until…um… something better comes along.
171[earlofgrey 118d] very tricky @neumedia  because there are people with access to vast amounts of storage and some russian guys that have insane botnets built over several years. but of course its nice to just speculate and see things come to fruition
172[neumedia 117d] @earlofgrey  I’m a programmer working on 3d software at the moment, so I have a few spare GPUs sitting idle on a couple of machines while I’m not testing stuff. I currently use them for pool-mining (not BTC) when not in use. I also have a solar array, so excess power I generate with that goes to those cards (if I have it… I hope). It doesn’t cost me much to mine, and I eek out a few dollars. I don’t think this is atypical, but my participation is overshadowed by the pros with ASIC hardware and/or dozens of GPUs. Of course I would like to get into mining chia, and 5TB isn’t goin
173g to break me if I do. I just wonder how long I could do it before the profitability is eclipsed again by the pros. We’ll know more next year. More alternatives in this cypto-era gives me hope.
174[codingbrian 117d] Why the name Chia? I talked to three co-workers today and everybody asks, "like Chia pet?" I have no idea how to answer this question other than to say, "Yes, like Chia Pet. I have no idea why he called it that."
175[bramcohen 117d] @markhau the number 3 is a bit of a social convention and may increase later. Basically the more that are done at once the greater the farming rate but it diminishes rapidly. If only one is used then a dishonest farmer can gain advantage by keeping the top several heads, but going for more requires running more time servers which are individually probably not all that cheap. Making the honest farmers go with just a few dramatically decreases the dishonest rewards. If the possible advantage of dishonest farmers starts giving them a real advantage in practice then the number can
176 be upped
177[bramcohen 117d] @culv3r You might notice that one of the authors of the new proof of space paper is also one of the authors of the spacement paper
178[bramcohen 117d] @mbarkhau there will likely be a minimum allocation size of 100gb or 1tb or so. It isn't so much to enforce a minimum as to require a minimum amount of wall clock time to pass before an allocation can be done so attackers can't repeatedly generate and try new allocations instead of doing a single lookup
179[bramcohen 117d] @codingbrian 'Chia' is the name of a grain. It goes with the 'farming' theme. Chia pets happen to use the same plant, so they got the name from the same source but we didn't get the name from Chia Pets
180[bramcohen 117d] @neumedia The likely outcome is that it rapidly becomes unprofitable to buy hard drives just for the purposes of farming, so you'll always be able to get rewards off your unused storage. They'll likely be small, but it isn't costing you anything extra if you already have the storage for some other reason
181[curiousg 117d] @RYAN
182[curiousg 117d] @ryan_singer  - could one farm, in theory, on AWS S3?
183[mbarkhau 117d] The idea is that farming on s3 wouldn't be profitable, because you're competing against  hundreds of thousands of average consumers which are using their idle disk capacity at a marginal cost of 0 to them
184[pmn 117d] Any thoughts on enabling atomic swaps with one of the file storage projects like Sia or Storj? It feels like it could be a useful way to bootstrap initial Chia nodes while helping the demand side of those projects. Although, at some point the same people running Sia nodes could just as easily switch to Chia if the rewards were high enough on the Chia network.
185[pmn 117d] (although now that I've read what I just said, I'm realizing atomic swaps won't get you all the way there -- there'd still have to be some automation to store Chia data on those nodes)
186[ryan_singer 117d] @pmn: Chia proofs are just noise. Nobody would pay to store more than they can store for free
187[semger 117d] If you don't like how something works, make a new model to change it. I believe that is what is happening with chia, an attempt to implement POS. I think it will work. If you haven't  tried (or someone else), you can't say it will or won't work
188[semger 117d] @ryan_singer
189[dystortion 117d] Hey Everyone
190[max 117d] Hi guys there was a small hiccup with letting users into this group that revealed a few keybase bugs.  We are working on fixing them ASAP but everything should be OK now. Let me know if not.
191[max 117d] (And the team admins have successfully added all backlogged users)
192[sigma_ 117d] Hi there, thnx for letting me in :)
193[sigma_ 117d] I'm gonna read the history, if I have more questions I will ask them :)
194[bramcohen 117d] @pmn we're going to support atomic swaps out of the gate. We're starting with Bitcoin script using BLS signatures instead of DSA. Plan is to support lightning and simplicity and related features ASAP, but basically rolling them out in conjunction with their rollouts in Bitcoin because it's based on the same codebase
195[bramcohen 117d] Thanks @max
196[sigma_ 117d] Will Chia have the same total supply as what bitcoin has?
197[bramcohen 117d] @max I had to do a local reboot just now to make it look like messages got through. Quitting seems to be flaky on OSX and I keep having to force quit. Also it froze up on me just now and then started working again
198[sigma_ 117d] I saw your talks @bramcohen yesterday on facebook, really cool idea and I love the fact that this will be way more energy efficient then pow. It's one of the things I don't like about bitcoin tbh.
199[max 117d] Hmm. Ok.  @bramcohen maybe send a log so we can examine.  Thanks. `keybase log send`.
200[bramcohen 117d] @sigma_ There will be farming rewards but they won't have halving so the amount in circulation increases without bound but the proportion of coins (grains?) minted (grown?) each year goes down as a fraction of the total so far
201[p4km4n 117d] Its hard to read the thread when it's always moving... hope you'll fix that soon.
202[bramcohen 117d] @p4km4n This is a new feature of keybase and they're actively working on it. Sorry for being on the bleeding edge
203[p4km4n 117d] :) I actually like that you choosed Keybase! First group chat I join.
204[bramcohen 117d] @max I sent a log, hopefully that helps
205[mikem 117d] thanks @bramcohen!
206[sigma_ 117d] Same here, really like keybase already over slack...what a piece of crappy software that is, especially the desktop client
207[bramcohen 117d] Slack has a lot of nice features but we're very wary of its lackadaisical approach to security and constant phishing which happen in crypto
208[pmn 117d] Atomic swaps on day one sound awesome @bramcohen; thanks!
209[sigma_ 117d] Yeah it's crazy, I've seen plenty of people getting scammed by these phishers.
210[pmn 117d] The phishing in crypto slacks is horiffically bad, and Slack isn't interested in doing anything about it since they're almost all unpaid teams
211[sigma_ 117d] Atomic swaps one day would be awesome, but I guess that won't be a priority first
212[sigma_ 117d] Do you have estimate on when we can read the whitepaper?
213[bramcohen 117d] Atomic swaps are just about the simplest smart transaction possible. All you need is multisig and hash preimage reveal. They're supported by almost everything
214[bramcohen 117d] We aren't going to have a 'whitepaper', we're going to have real academic papers in actual journals. So far we have the one which got accepted to Asiacrypt and is up as an eprint. There will be at least two more going over proofs of time and how to hook the whole thing together into a blockchain
215[sigma_ 117d] Oke, cool
216[dantelex 117d] Just joinned in
217[bramcohen 117d] Hi dantelex
218[bapbap 117d] Hi everyone, just joined
219[goodside 117d] One thing that really strikes me as novel about Chia is that the competitive arms race for hash power in Bitcoin doesn't encourage people to buy hardware useful for any purpose other than mining, but Chia (as I understand it) does. To me this seems much more compelling than the argument that Chia would be more decentralized because of users' existing hard drive capacity, because it still applies when "farming" is done at industrial scale.
220[goodside 117d] Is this actually true? That is, do we know that any storage device capable of farming Chia is also useful as a general purpose hard drive, or is it possible that farming would be dominated by hardware useful to nobody but farmers?
221[bramcohen 117d] @goodside It's the contrapositive of that argument which really makes it work. Because people have already paid for a lot of not used storage capacity, there's ridiculous excess resources available, so it will be unprofitable to buy storage just for the sake of farming. This is directly related to storage being useful for other things, although it isn't 'useful' mining in the sense that the calculation itself isn't productive, but it is leveraging a useful resource
222[bramcohen 117d] Hi @bapbap
223[goodside 117d] I get that the act of farming isn't externally useful as storage — I guess what I'm asking is how certain are you that it's actually consuming useful general-purpose storage as opposed to some cheaper form of storage that isn't general-purpose.
224[goodside 117d] Similar to the way that ASICs outclass CPUs without producing any useful computation as a side effect.
225[jamesdlevine 117d] Hi
226[frogger 117d] I don't think we'll see a lot of non-technical users farming with spare storage space. There are just already hard-drive mined coins around that launched with the same idea of letting people get value out of their unused storage space, but the crowds didn't jump on in that way. When you consider that there are hundreds of petabytes of storage space being used for mining, it would take millions of average users utilizing half of their space at 50% uptime (closing laptops, turning computers off at night) to match that kind of farming capability.
227[frogger 117d] @goodside I'm not sure those non general purpose storage methods exist. Do you know of any?
228[frogger 117d] Unless theres some real marketing push and an easy to use interface akin to vertcoin's One Click Miner, I bet 90% of mining will be professional farming operations.
229[frogger 117d] I don't think we'll see a lot of non-technical users farming with spare storage space. There are just already hard-drive mined coins around that launched with the same idea of letting people get value out of their unused storage space, but the crowds didn't jump on in that way. When you consider that there are hundreds of petabytes of storage space being used for mining, it would take millions of average users utilizing half of their space at 50%!u(MISSING)ptime (closing laptops, turning computers off at night) to match that kind of farming capability.
230[frogger 117d] Unless theres some real marketing push and an easy to use interface akin to vertcoin's One Click Miner, I bet 90%!o(MISSING)f mining will be professional farming operations.
231[goodside 117d] I'm thinking about a future where Chia is important enough to design hardware for. Mining ASICs didn't exist either until there was a reason for them to.
232[goodside 117d] I realize I'm probably worrying about overpopulation on Mars. It still seems important whether there could even theoretically exist some device that would satisfy the requirements of "proof of space" while still cleverly failing at being a real hard drive, and thus being enough orders of magnitude cheaper than the real hard drives for a 51% attack.
233[frogger 117d] But ASICs already existed. Thats just the concept that its more efficient to design a chip to do one thing than to use a multipurpose chip to the same . There's plenty of industry incentive for better storage and chia wont add much to that bucket.
234[goodside 117d] I realize I'm probably worrying about overpopulation on Mars. It still seems important whether there could even theoretically exist some device that would satisfy the requirements of "proof of space" while still cleverly failing at being a real hard drive, and thus being enough orders of magnitude cheaper than the real hard drives for a 51%!a(MISSING)ttack.
235[ryan_singer 117d] A real hard drive is pretty perfectly optimized for this. The real tech innovation will be on proofs of time.
236[ryan_singer 117d] The "ASIC" of proof a space would just be a bigger hard drive.
237[bramcohen 117d] @frogger The rewards for the deployed proof of space based coins are relatively low and, uh, the algorithms they're using are busted so nobody serious is working on them
238[bramcohen 117d] @frogger we are planning on make a 'run and forget' farming server for desktops
239[bramcohen 117d] @goodside There's no way to optimize storage. Bits are bits. The closest thing is tape drive, which do sort of work, but still are competing with resources people have already paid for and are depreciating
240[frogger 117d] @bramcohen I understand that burst is "busted" code-wise but even burst is profitable to buy hard drives to mine. Since chia should be much better and more secure it stands to reason it will be more profitable so I think you should anticipate the 100-200 petabytes of potential farmers switching over to the chia network pretty quickly and overtaking the casual desktop miner is all.
241[bramcohen 117d] @frogger There will still be some rewards for desktop farmers and the cost will still be effectively zero for some nonzero rewards. It isn't like Bitcoin mining where a desktop loses money mining because of the electricity it's burning
242[goodside 117d] If tape is viable at all, I assume that means spinning is just as good as SSD?
243[frogger 117d] @bramcohen Yes I understand that, but still a non-zero reward isn't necessarily enough to convince people to farm. There are non zero rewards available for pretty much everyone with a hard drive or graphics card right now but still most gamers/casual users don't bother. It will take a very strong marketing push to get those users, and I expect most to give up shortly after starting and seeing minimal rewards come in.
244[bramcohen 117d] Bits are bits. The place where tape comes near to fumbling is in its lookups which are slow but the costs of farming are so low that even that is okay
245[frogger 117d] @goodside ssd are far to expensive. hdd is the best performance/dollar
246[ryan_singer 117d] @frogger: if the only desktop farmers are wallet users, it's ok. We don't need large numbers of profit motivated farmers, it's enough that the normal users farm only on computers they install wallets on
247[igorgue 117d] Good old SATA will be useful?
248[bramcohen 117d] @frogger Hopefully we manage to have some coolness factor. Burstcoin doesn't exactly have good community management. I'm also not convinced that people with regular GPUs can mine ETH profitably, because the premium they're paying for electricity over wholesale is massive
249[bramcohen 117d] @igorgue If it stores bits it's useful
250[igorgue 117d] That's really cool! Anyone could have access to a very cheap miner with tons of storage!
251[frogger 117d] @bramcohen I do think mining alts is profitable for most semi-modern gpus (2gigs of ram, made in last 4-5 years) but regardless I'm not trying to argue. I think this project is great. I just think the statement that buying harddrives for mining will not be profitable is a little misleading.
252[bramcohen 117d] @frogger I think it will go in a cycle: Profitable for a while, then established enterprises (and maybe lots of users) will decide it's worth doing and get on it, then back to unprofitable again
253[frogger 117d] Any early thoughts as to the % of coins that will be sold in the ICO?
254[frogger 117d] @bramcohen sure, that sounds about right
255[frogger 117d] Any early thoughts as to the %!o(MISSING)f coins that will be sold in the ICO?
256[ryan_singer 117d] We've been thinking about it, but we're not ready to announce those thoughts yet
257[ryan_singer 117d] Stay tuned
258[guido1st 116d] @bramcohen Is it Byzantine agreement at core ?  Wondering if consensus take a 100% role in Chia or not given that Bittorrent protocol aligns much to that ? Know about Steller ? http://www.stellar.org https://www.stellar.org/papers/stellar-consensus-protocol.pdf
259[frogger 116d] *tunes dial*
260[guido1st 116d] @bramcohen Is it Byzantine agreement at core ?  Wondering if consensus take a 100%!r(MISSING)ole in Chia or not given that Bittorrent protocol aligns much to that ? Know about Steller ? http://www.stellar.org https://www.stellar.org/papers/stellar-consensus-protocol.pdf
261[bramcohen 116d] @guido1st It is not byzantine agreement! It's a very Bitcoin-like blockchain with the consensus algorithm swapped out but very much a 'proof of work' in the sense that building a blockchain requires resources and the amounts of them can be verified locally
262[bramcohen 116d] It's a lot more complicated than a simple deadbeef but the same general flavor
263[guido1st 116d] @bramcohen Actually I was asking if Chia will have consensus via quorum vote or not against the PoS/PoT.  1 Proof versus 12 Proofs...does that make sense ?  SCP has something similar through the use of FBA, but you can certainly reach consensus through various methods...just wondering what Chia will probably end up with ?
264[d3vil 116d] What is chia basically
265[frogger 116d] A cryptocurrency that is mined with hard drives instead of processing power, allowing easier access to users, and vastly reducing the cost/waste of securing the network (electricity burned)
266[guido1st 116d] @bramcohen Since I work for Ericsson....who's rolling out 5G soon :)  Naturally, I'm interested in how large the challenges data passed over the wire will be :)  Gigs over the wire is a good thing for our bottomline :)  But I'm also curious how much consensus is necessary.  Data exchanges between parties.  I imagine similar to Bittorrent ?
267[bramcohen 116d] @guido1st No quorum! Whoever makes a block gets it and everybody else starts building on top of that new one to not get orphaned
268[bramcohen 116d] @guido1st Block chain size is comparable to Bitcoin. The challenge size can be boiled down to 256 bits
269[guido1st 116d] @bramcohen will challenge size grow ? or have a need to potentially ?
270[bramcohen 116d] Nope
271[guido1st 116d] @bramcohen so it's not bandwidth heavy :(  dude, we're trying to sell more radio towers here, get with the program :)  Just Kidding.  That's awesome that its green down to the communication level even.
272[nvgeorge 116d] @bramcohen not sure if I missed this in your videos and discussion here but what are the theoretical transaction throughput capabilities of Chia?
273[bramcohen 116d] @nvgeorge Comparable to Bitcoin, like within a factor of two. Scaling will be done via Lightning and similar technologies, but with less bullshit getting in the way of development and deployment.
274[nvgeorge 116d] @bramcohen ahh I see. So main differences (in terms of features/benefits) are sustainability of chain and resistant to miner centralization?
275[bramcohen 116d] @nvgeorge Yeah also a bunch of basic improvements: Everything is BLS signatures for better smart transaction support, and a bunch of bug fixes like timewarp
276[nvgeorge 116d] @bramcohen awesome thank you for the response. I am really excited about this project, really interesting!
277[wtabata 116d] people, a question. is there anything developed yet? Is it just on paper? or is it just for people enrolled in the email job@?
278[bramcohen 116d] @wtabata No code written yet but there are a bunch of mathematical primitives worked out and working their way towards publication. I'm hiring programmers right now and coding will begin soon
279[wtabata 116d] @bramcohen oh man Thanks! I'm looking forward to seeing this code. I am a fullstack developer a few years and I really want to follow this project or even help !!! :D
280[n1000 116d] I'm curious, which programming language will be used (if it has been decided)? Also, will development be from scratch or will it leverage an existing cryptocurrency code base?
281[bramcohen 116d] @n1000 We're building on the Bitcoin codebase, so C/C++
282[bramcohen 116d] Planning on doing a bunch of improvements to the codebase and upstreaming it as quickly as possible
283[n1000 116d] @bramcohen thanks
284[imisaac 116d] it's a great initiative, @bramcohen, will there likely be an ICO, or never?
285[bramcohen 116d] We're planning on doing some kind of sales to the public, working over that with lawyers
286[imisaac 116d] thanks, happy to know that. I ask because it'd be a huge uphill to win over legacy crypto communities, as many stuborness there. It's becoming Detroit already if we use car industry as analogy.
287[moeadham 116d] I am really interested in proof of elapsed time. Anywhere we can read up on your approach?
288[giannidalerta 116d] @bramcohen do you forsee instead people turning to datacenters to house storage arrays to "farm" chia? I can image the energy consumption will be much less.
289[giannidalerta 116d] @bramcohen also gonna hae to find a potter to make me a "chia logo" inspired scupture, to grow some real chia. :)
290[xmrim 116d] hello, one question, how to get chia coin since it's not minable?
291[xmrim 116d] would it be POS like coin?
292[mbarkhau 116d] I'm pretty sure it will be "minable", though it's called "farming" in chia. Indeed the idea is that it will be minable by many more people, since all you need is some free hard disk space, which most people have a few dozen gigabytes of anyway
293[djstickyd 116d] That's what is most fascinating, is the ability for anyone to farm.
294[djstickyd 116d] I wonder how many coins will be available during the ICO.
295[kaiser1212 116d] Hello
296[mbarkhau 116d] If it were up to me, the amount of coins in the ICO would negligible compared to the total number of coins minted by the time the block rewards peter out
297[mbarkhau 116d] the more coins they pre mine, the more this seems like a scam
298[frogger 116d] @mbarkhau indeed this seems to be the main worry from the community
299[mbarkhau 116d] I don't know their situation, but I would argue there might not be a need for an ICO. If you're an early farmer you should get plenty of coins anyway and if the company is strapped for cash early on, they should be able to find investors based on the presumable appreciation of those coins. The whole lightning network aspect also offers the opportunity to act as a trusted node for payment channels and earn fees that way.
300[bramcohen 116d] @mbarkhau Everything pre-mined will be locked up for quite a while
301[bramcohen 116d] @moeadham Paper forthcoming! It's a new result from some folks from Stanford
302[bramcohen 116d] @giannidalerta It's entirely possible to farm using the unused capacity on a normal data center storage array and have the rewards simply go down proportionally as real data is stored. The real file system doesn't even have to know it's going on
303[bramcohen 116d] @mbarkhau We need to do some amount of fund-raising because there's quite a bit of work to do done just getting the thing up and running and it would be nice to fund ongoing development and enhancements in the future (many of which will be shared with Bitcoin)
304[mbarkhau 116d] did i read correctly that lightning network integration will be available from the start?
305[frogger 116d] @bramcohen very impressed by your ability to keep a cool head and discuss things, and the level of engagement here. The transparency is very encouraging!
306[bramcohen 116d] @mbarkhau At least to the extent that lightning network is implemented by that time. We're close friends with the lightning network people
307[mbarkhau 116d] Sounds good, I anticipate there will be quite a bit of effort expended in the case of bitcoin, trying to explain the different payment methods. If chia can start right off the bat with a lightning network, even as the encouranged default, then I think that will be great for scalability and also anonyimity.
308[bramcohen 116d] I make no claims about anonymity! But scaling is definitely a goal
309[mbarkhau 116d] yeah, anonymity depends on what the people in the payment channel are logging
310[luizcruz 116d] Hello all. In the beginning, everyone in the world could fund (buy chia), or let's say, only US will be accepted? What kind of payment will be accepted?
311[yuanjianwen 116d] May be alipay
312[themihai 116d] What programming language will be usedfor the reference implementation?
313[yashax 116d] hello everyone
314[janprill 116d] Has been answered a few moments ago: Since chia is going to be based on bitcoin-core it's C/C++
315[kriera 116d] hi everyone, is there any info about minning process?
316[kriera 116d] CPU GPU, ASIC?
317[frogger 116d] @kriera hard drive
318[yithmas 116d] Hello all and thanks for letting me in. I am really excited about a cryptocurrency with sustainability in its design.
319[allencox 116d] I'd like to find a way to have some type of two factor authentication on the wallets.
320[ryan_singer 116d] Hi @allencox ; Chia will support multi-sig wallets, so multi-sig providers like GreenAddress, BitGo and others should be able to provide 2FA services for wallets.
321[steveraf 116d] Hello everyone
322[nisenbaum 116d] Hello All!
323[camelord 116d] Yeah - im in chia group.. looking forward to release
324[ryan_singer 116d] :+1:
325[sukima 116d] @frogger Does this mean that those who have more HDD space get more coins? How does it manage companies making acers of storage racks?
326[ryan_singer 116d] Those that allocate more hdd space to chia farming will be more likely to win block rewards. Most of the big storage racks out there probably have high utilization rates
327[semger 116d] is it cheaper to rent storage space from aws or to use your own for a 500 x 1tb farm
328[semger 116d] as an example
329[semger 116d] 500 1 tb hard drives
330[ryan_singer 116d] It will probably never be worth it to buy or rent HDD space to farm. The only cost effective way will be to farm with unused HDD space you already paid for that was bought for another purpose
331[ryan_singer 116d] Like the empty space on your laptops hard drive
332[rompert 116d] @bramcohen et al: greetings! i hope this succeeds greatly. i've been thinking a lot about how annoying it is that these new currencies are not eco-friendly, but I haven't figured out how to make one. but you have, so that's great! make economy and ecology walk hand in hand! best of luck, hoping to be able to participate somehow.
333[benderone 116d] cryptocurrencies ​​are the present ... Sustainable cryptocurrencies are the future!!
334[hudiga 116d] Greetings for this nice idea! Thanks for all efforts!
335[james3126 116d] Damn I'm exited for this project. Hopefully it will turn out to be an exceptionally successful POC coin and actually take a decent share of the market
336[chikodi 116d] Hi
337[chikodi 116d] Super excited to be part of Chia network
338[rompert 116d] so, when/where can i find any kind of interesting nerdy technical documentation that i can try to wrap my head around?
339[bramcohen 116d] @rompert There are some links from the site right now and more will be added there and sent to the announcements list as they become available
340[rompert 116d] @bramcohen oh... did you just put them there, or did i just recover from blindness? thanks
341[themihai 116d] I would be willing to work on a Go implementation whenever the specifications are released.
342[jadel 116d] Super interesting idea, excited to see how this unfolds. keep up the great work!
343[jspreis 116d] Hello!
344[nisenbaum 116d] Props on the old school “subscribe” mail list.
345[nisenbaum 116d] Is this here the main discussion channel? Is there irc?
346[ryan_singer 116d] @nisenbaum ; this is the main discussion channel
347[nisenbaum 116d] Thanks
348[cyptogeek 116d] Will Chia be available on Ledger, keepkey and Trezor?
349[bramcohen 116d] @cyptogeek We aren't sure where it will be listed at this time
350[p4km4n 116d] I was wondering about HDD companies, this will make them king of Chia, no? #WesternDigital #Seagate ...
351[piramida 116d] As was said before, idea of producing HDDs just to farm would be unfeasible, you will never make the investment back.
352[piramida 116d] there are zetabytes of unused hd space sitting idle, with cost = 0, which you will have to compete with )
353[donndonn 116d] Two questions. if you mining bitcoin, you will get some bitcoin with some amount of work. How is it  like to get chia? Present some space for some amount of time, then you get some chia?
354Second, I still can't get it. Why it's unfeasible for f producing HDDs just to farm? Wouldn't there be some point if the price of chia goes up, the profit you make from farming will greater then the HDD?
355[kodinas 115d] Hello
356[kodinas 115d] What transfer and scalability system will chia have? and how will it be mined with hard disk space?
357[kodinas 115d] I guess the space on the hard drive / time and a good connection should be important, right?
358[kodinas 115d] I am interested in mining this currency ...
359[ryan_singer 115d] Farming :-)
360[davidhartley 115d] Chia looks very promising, looking forward to it!
361[bramcohen 115d] @donndonn Yes you get rewards based on the amount of space and time you devote. It's pobabilistic like in Bitcoin: You have a chance of mining a block proportionate to the fraction of all space allocated you've contributed. There's a work difficulty adjustment like in Bitcoin, so when the amount of resources devoted is large the rewards are small. Since there's lots of storage people have already purchased for other reasons and can farm at no extra cost the expectation is that a lot of it will come online fast, resulting in rewards being too low to justify acquiring storage so
362lely for the purposes of farming
363[bramcohen 115d] @kodinas The network being up and ready for farming is a ways off, but you can sign up for the announcements list to get info as it comes out
364[bramcohen 115d] @kodinas Scaling will be handled the same as in Bitcoin, primarily though supporting net settlement with Lightning and making further enhancements in that direction, but without the sort of political problems getting in the way of development which have been a problem in Bitcoin.
365[ryan_singer 115d] Also we'll remain available here and will discuss announcements here
366[kodinas 115d] then mining will be complicated and not feasible? the mining of chia?
367[hadamcik 115d] Chia can't be mined - only grown
368[ryan_singer 115d] We hope a far wider variety of people will participate in Chia Farming than in Bitcoin mining.
369[ryan_singer 115d] Bitcoin mining is dominated by a small group of large miners. We think Chia farming will be less like that
370[nisenbaum 115d] Sorry if this is already been covered - what is the governance model or mechanism? feel free to point me to white paper
371[kodinas 115d] and how to proceed for coins, etc.
372[kodinas 115d] ?
373[ryan_singer 115d] @nisenbaum : more papers from academics coming. The goal is to make hard forks effectively impossible, so governance will come from user choice and bitcoin-like decentralized incentives.
374[ryan_singer 115d] @kodinas : there will be a public sale next year, and you'll be able to farm once the Network launches
375[kodinas 115d] This is interesting, is the date more or less known?
376[nisenbaum 115d] like zcash model? grafting chia farming to bitcoin blockchain?
377[nisenbaum 115d] as a novel, highliy distributed Proof mechanism, it's very exciting
378[mars_taxi 115d] Excited to know chia
379[duncanmc 115d] when are yall launchin?
380[frogger 115d] @kodinas @nisenbaum farming(mining) will be done with hard drive lookups. If it's anything like other proof of space algo's, think of it like stored proof of work. The proof of work takes a long time to generate but is quick to check, so you generate all at once, store on a drive, and then do a quick lookup for each new block. They intend on releasing a very easy to use farmer. There will also be an inital coin offering. During the last talk Bram said they're aiming for late 2018
381[nurazhar 115d] Hello hopefully the chia network will be more decentralized like torrent and not concentrate in silicon valley (money buys HDD)
382[uraimo 115d] hdd space aside
383[uraimo 115d] @bramcohen since this is based around storing data, will this also require a lot of bandwidth?
384[frogger 115d] nope, its not about sharing data like storj or something like that. The client will probably use about as much as any other crypto
385[matthewang 115d] What times can  mining?
386[uraimo 115d] "During the last talk Bram said they're aiming for late 2018"
387[uraimo 115d] "They intend on releasing a very easy to use farmer. There will also be an inital coin offering."
388[uraimo 115d] farmer aka miner
389[uraimo 115d] (less cpu coal, more storage vegetables)
390[matthewang 115d] from GPU to storage means More hard disk
391[uraimo 115d] yup
392[uraimo 115d] but they say it will not make economical sense to buy new hdds to farm. I wonder what this will mean for the value of the coin. Will you  need petabytes to farm enough to make it viable?
393[frogger 115d] i think rewards will be linear. So it will be equally profitable. 10x the drives = 10x the earnings. Profitability as a % of money spent on drives should be about the same
394[uraimo 115d] (I mean, will this be more or less only for big farmers from the start?)
395[frogger 115d] i think rewards will be linear. So it will be equally profitable. 10x the drives = 10x the earnings. Profitability as a %!o(MISSING)f money spent on drives should be about the same
396[frogger 115d] What the team is thinking, or hoping it seems, is that so many people with extra drive space will farm without intent to return a profit on their drives, to the point that this will cut into the reward share sought by profit driven miners
397[nurazhar 115d] i wonder what's their plan for adoption/traction
398[nurazhar 115d] ICO contributor usually want a return so let's just wait for their announcement @uraimo
399[uraimo 115d] sure
400[matthewang 115d] More computers
401[uraimo 115d] don't know about people farming for the glory of it, hdds tend to wear off the more you use them, so..
402[uraimo 115d] the same goes for bitcoin, if it wasn't for for-profit miners, the network will be dead I guess
403[frogger 115d] Agreed. I think this will be more distributed than most crypto, but much less than they're hoping for
404[frogger 115d] Though I do see the potential for this to catch on on a mass scale. With the names behind it, and storage based farming, this could easily be seen as an accesible bitcoin for newcomers
405[izel 115d] Last time I checked there were around 700 cryptocurriencies, what would be the market advantage for Chia, from my perspective having this amount of currency gives the feeling of currency bubble except btc, and I definitly agree spending this much energy shouldn't be the approach and it's not scalable, for future digital currencies something better could be done. I hope Chia can achive this
406[matthewang 115d] Yes agreen
407[izel 115d] In homogeneous environment, think decentralization , fees and money is not important and we need to keep blockchain running, Blockchain is great invention but to enable this technology using this much power and hardware is not necessary,  the ideollogy behin mining is decentralation and distrubution of coins, this could be achived with less cost, and faster, this has been already exist for very long time look at torrent technology .
408[cyptogeek 115d] @bramcohen I think this chat will get very busy. You need a FAQ page on your site where the same questions don't come up again and again. The limitation is the old messages not appearing in the keybase app. App says "digging ancient messages" so you can't blame those asking the repeat questions. This chat will become more streamlined if you can point people to a FAQ url. I know you've only just started up and you're probably already in the process of this.
409[omar66 115d] Isn't this reinventing the wheel? I've seen Bram claim Burstcoin is exploitable. Is there a working proof of concept? What % of Chia will be sold on ICO?
410[jqrgen 115d] Hello :)
411[omar66 115d] Isn't this reinventing the wheel? I've seen Bram claim Burstcoin is exploitable. Is there a working proof of concept? What %!o(MISSING)f Chia will be sold on ICO?
412[ryan_singer 115d] Hi @omar66 ; yes, we are building an iteratively better crypto currency, not inventing a new class of thing. There is not yet a working poc. We haven't announced specifics on public funding plans or token economics yet.
413[omar66 115d] I mean proof of concept that Brustcoin is breoken
414[omar66 115d] Their proof oc capacity algorithm doesnt require proof of time servers
415[ryan_singer 115d] That's part of why they are broken, without proof of time a remining since Genesis attack is possible
416[omar66 115d] Current network difficulty is 148 PB, remining since genesis would probably cost around 50 million USD + cost of opportunity.
417[omar66 115d] Won't the time servers spend a lot of energy?
418[ryan_singer 115d] @bramcohen is better on these questions. He pops in about once a day here.
419[rperrillo 115d] Hey guys
420[bramcohen 115d] @p4km4n It would be great if hard drive manufacturers start farming their drives while they're in inventory and shipping them pre-seeded
421[bramcohen 115d] @nisenbaum We're planning on working off the Bitcoin codebase and being much more judicious about keeping the diff size small and constantly rebasing. Also planning on upstreaming as much as possible to Bitcoin core
422[bramcohen 115d] @uraimo Wear on hard drives will be extremely minimal, basically one lookup per block
423[bramcohen 115d] @izel the plan is to drive adoption by being a better coin, centered around faster development and a less toxic ecosystem
424[bramcohen 115d] @omar66 remining since genesis wouldn't require owning the storage for all time, just using it briefly. Renting 150 petabytes on S3 for a month would cost about $3 million which would be profitable on Burst if trying to sell that much wouldn't completely tank the currency. That's far from the only attack on it though
425[omar66 114d] @bramcohen I think it would actually take closer to 1000PB to remine the burst blockchain from genesis in just a month, so closer to 20 million to carry out such an attack, and with the current network the cost increases by 3 million per month. Which other Burstcoin attacks exist?
426[cryptoyhh 114d] Hello! Guys^_^
427[bramcohen 114d] @omar66 It doesn't require more than the current amount of space to re-mine since genesis no matter how long history has gone on unless you throw in proofs of time. The other attacks are on the algorithm directly and also grinding attacks. The spacemint paper explains an algorithmic weakness, and for grinding given that it's based on NXT it's probably cheesecloth.
428[adamevers 114d] @bramcohen Chia is a brilliant idea! Love it. Can’t wait to see where it goes.
429[pmn 114d] :wave: @adamevers
430[ajuoga 114d] how do you provide space and time and which one of the two is the farming?
431[bramcohen 114d] @ajuoga They're both functions which taken a challenge and provide an output demonstrating some type of work on that input which can be locally verified by full nodes. Proofs of space are the farming part
432[bramcohen 114d] Technically proofs of time are also part of the farming, but those tend to be done by a few actors who don't get anything out of it directly
433[ajuoga 114d] I know that for bitcoin you would have to get a miner and plug it in and spend some kwh.  what would a lay person have to do to get Chia?
434[frogger 114d] allocate some disk space and run a simple program
435[ajuoga 114d] ok got it,  and this program is what is not ready yet as of now right?
436[frogger 114d] yah. once the product is ready they will release a client that will allow you to join the chia network, farm with your disk space, and acquire chia
437[ajuoga 114d] Good stuff! for the first time I get to join something at the very beginning, looking forward to a lot of learning!
438[omar66 114d] @bramcohen How can you forge a history that is end to end verifiably harder to generate than the canonical chain with just 50.1% of total space? I don't think it is any more possible to do this in PoW than in burstcoin, due to difficulty adjustment. If this is the case, you should be able to prove it by remining the burstcoin testnet since genesis. Both the grinding and low-index cpu-memory trade off attack from spacemint should be easy to proof of concept, yet we haven't seen a working one. As far as I can tell both would be possible to correct without implementing proofs of tim
439e.
440[rperrillo 114d] sounds like an ambitious project
441[omar66 114d] @bramcohen How can you forge a history that is end to end verifiably harder to generate than the canonical chain with just 50.1%!o(MISSING)f total space? I don't think it is any more possible to do this in PoW than in burstcoin, due to difficulty adjustment. If this is the case, you should be able to prove it by remining the burstcoin testnet since genesis. Both the grinding and low-index cpu-memory trade off attack from spacemint should be easy to proof of concept, yet we haven't seen a working one. As far as I can tell both would be possible to correct without implementing proo
442fs of time.
443[bramcohen 114d] @omar66 For remining since genesis you need 100.1% of the mean across the whole history, and you can do it fast because farming by design requires de minimis computation (and if you don't have proofs of time, de minimis time as well)
444[frogger 114d] @bramcohen you've mentioned minimum space allotments needed for farming between 100GB and 1TB . This sounds appealing as it would probably negate the effectiveness of botnets. But I wonder how this minimum could be enforced? or did you mean that would be the effective minimum required but not a technical minimum?
445[bramcohen 114d] @omar66 For remining since genesis you need 100.1%!o(MISSING)f the mean across the whole history, and you can do it fast because farming by design requires de minimis computation (and if you don't have proofs of time, de minimis time as well)
446[bramcohen 114d] @frogger When you make an allocation you have to specify the size up front. You can delete most of it and use what remains if you want, but reallocating just that small part would require recomputing the entire thing
447[bramcohen 114d] Unless you want to do a smaller size allocation, of course. But each proof of space declares what size allocation it was part of, so enforcing the minimum is trivial.
448[omar66 114d] @bramcohen Ok I think I understand how that works now. It would then take about 20 PB or $450,000 to attack the Burstcoin network in this way, plus maybe 150PB to sustain the attack in real-time.
449[bramcohen 114d] That's assuming you don't use the other attack vectors which might add a few orders of magnitude each
450[ajuoga 114d] what is the difference between chia and burstcoin?
451[bramcohen 114d] They're two completely different development efforts. On a technical level Burstcoin is busted and Chia won't be
452[nurazhar 114d] :rolling_on_the_floor_laughing:
453[ajuoga 114d] when you talk about 20PB  or 450,000 you mean the amount of storage required and or the cost of that storage as $4500,000?
454[omar66 114d] Yes
455[omar66 114d] BTW 1 month of AWS S3 cost the same for 8TB as an 8TB hard drive
456[frogger 114d] cloud storage isn't feasible for this kind of work
457[omar66 114d] I think you guys are underestimating the profitability of mining the coin. Burstcoin currently yields about 2-3% ROI per month, even though 90% of supply has been mined and market cap is only 10 million. With 1 billion market cap a fresh coin could be protibale for a network size of over 50 exabyte, and because of deflation, price can keep rising as long as the userbase keeps growing.
458[omar66 114d] Grinding is an attack vector of all improperly implemented PoS coins right? And any other coin that could suffer from the nothing at stake weakness. I think that is more of an implementation detail than a fatal flaw in the proof of capacity system. The time memory tradeoffs can also be fixed I think, but the remining from genesis could only be hardened against using some very ugly workarounds (other than proofs of time that is)...
459[omar66 114d] I think you guys are underestimating the profitability of mining the coin. Burstcoin currently yields about 2-3%!R(MISSING)OI per month, even though 90%!o(MISSING)f supply has been mined and market cap is only 10 million. With 1 billion market cap a fresh coin could be protibale for a network size of over 50 exabyte, and because of deflation, price can keep rising as long as the userbase keeps growing.
460[izel 114d] @bramcohen how do you guys plan to solve forking problem, I guess one way is not going through open source  ?
461[earlofgrey 114d] I agree @omar66 that there is potential. At the very beginning there may be a risk buying harddrives just to farm. If they are building a pump and dump this is true, but if it’s long term and prices rise like other ICOs it could be potentially viable
462[nisenbaum 114d] @izel Not being open source is a non-starter. Forks will happen.
463[izel 114d] @nisenbaum in my opionion possibility of having forks is a major problem in cryptocurriencies, since public has no undesting and anyone can make a fork, it will make cryptos less credibile  , there are currently 180 fiat currencies in the world and already 700+ currencies in crypto world.. don't get me wrong I'm a big defender of open source but in currency world I'm not sure if this is the best approach
464[buhrmi 114d] hello everybody. new in this space (mostly lurking). just found out about chia and wondering if it's similar to filecoin and its proof-of-space-time?
465[nisenbaum 114d] @izel There will be no developer adoption for close source project. Forking is a feature, not a flaw.
466[izel 114d] @nisenbaum I agree, it's a feature but in the world of currencies it could be used as manipulation tool and currencies requires some level of certainty    in theory people can create thousands of forks.
467[izel 114d] @nisenbaum  if you have enough money and influence you can  basicly push a new fork  with a lot of buzz on media,  this would cause uncertainty on any crytptocurrency  do you have any solution to this problem ?
468[izel 114d] @nisenbaum assume billions of dollars are at stake
469[omar66 114d] @izel Look at bytecoin. It was closed soruce and someone made a free implementation and voila, top 10 coin.
470[omar66 114d] @izel, buy ripple if that's you kind of thing.
471[izel 114d] @omar66  I'm not saying it's my thing I'm  just looking for possible solutions I believe, it's a huge problem
472[izel 114d] How about partially open source it, for instace the parts which would matter to public.
473[izel 114d] and for full forking you will require a consensus
474[omar66 114d] Nah, all it takes is reverse engineering the protocol, which no one will use anyways if the specification is ambiguous. Would you rather give the developer the power to control the protocol, or the community concensus?
475[omar66 114d] If the ICO is too greedy there will probably be a fork, for example.
476[omar66 114d] My proposed solution to you is: Don't speculate on crypto. Chia can be mined by anyone without investing on infrastructure, how about doing that?
477[ryan_singer 114d] Even Ripple had Stellar. The trick to avoiding fork drama is to keep innovating and adding value.
478[omar66 114d] Yes, there's two completely different kinds of forks. The forks that are allowed in all free software projects (forking the source), and the forks in the history of blockchains (forking the rules or the transaction history).
479[omar66 114d] Solving the second wouldn't solve the first, in fact it would strengthen it.
480[izel 114d] So again you are not answering my question about, some huge hedge fund manipulating the community with fork,  "Chia can be mined by anyone without investing on infrastructure, how about doing that?" completly different subject which is a great thing
481[omar66 114d] First of all, having a better difficulty adjustment algorithm would help mitigate the problem with BTC/BCH today, second, if Core hadn't refused to acknowledge big blockers for years, they might not have opened themselves up to contention. Third, the efficient market hypothesis will eventually kick in once financially uneducated speculators get burned enough times. Finally, everyone is free to choose which protocol to adopt and which protocol to reject. No amount of artificial restrictions will break this principle.
482[omar66 114d] I highly doubt the market would choose a closed protocol over an open one. But hey, it's a crazy world.
483[izel 114d] Once goverments start issueing their own currencies on blockchains we will see I guess
484[omar66 114d] I mean, fiat does have a massive use case and works very well in many countries. There's also precious metals if you want a reliable store of value. Can't fork the heavy elements without a hypernova event.
485[omar66 114d] Other than that, every time governments maliciously manipulate money against their people's interests, cryptocurrencies gain more adoption.
486[omar66 114d] Another thing you can do is not sell your coins on one side of the fork for coins on the other side, that way you avoid getting burned once the dust settles.
487[omar66 114d] And don't keep your tokens on exchanges if you don't want manipulation.
488[izel 114d] it's not about getting burn, it's about stability of the cryptos
489[omar66 114d] Price stability?
490[izel 114d] price and user adaptation
491[izel 114d] if regular people gets in to cryptos they will be so confused until they realize what is  real what is fork and so onn
492[izel 114d] this is really bad for user adaptation
493[izel 114d] in theory you can create thousands of forks ofcourse not all will be accepted by the network but some would
494[izel 114d] any way I'm just thinking this is weakness
495[omar66 114d] Well I just named a couple of ways to ease the problem. Another way is to trademark the name of the coin, which Satoshi Nakamoto couldn't do since he was anonymous. One more way is to decentralize mining by using proof of space instead of proof of work. Decentralized exchanges are also getting better.
496[izel 114d] if you trademark the coin then it will be one step closer to a cooparation anyways, who will own the trademark
497[omar66 114d] Linux is trademarked, so is Firefox. Trademark gives the registrant the ability to take legal action against people appropriating the name. I think MtGox owns the Bitcoin trademark. If Bitcoin Foundation owned the Bitcoin trademark, they could sue any website caliming BCH to be Bitcoin. Trademark allows protecting the name. If the owner of the name misuses the trademark, Concensus can change the name of the coin, but they cannot change the name over to a different fork without permission.
498[izel 114d] Yeah I know they are,all of them has a trademark holders and there should be , so this is really far away from Decentralization  that is why I belive Satoshi didn't trademarked his invention
499[omar66 114d] So then what is the problem with forks?
500[omar66 114d] We're taking our off topic discussion elsewhere :)
501[ipaterson 114d] morning all
502[ryan_singer 114d] Good morning @ipaterson
503[ipaterson 114d] hey @ryan_singer what's shaking
504[ipaterson 114d] curious if there's been any written comparisons between sia + storaj
505[ryan_singer 114d] It's more comparable to Sia than storj. Chia is not a decentralized file storage mechanism, it's a Bitcoin-like Network that replaces mining with randomly generated proofs stored on disk and verifiable delay functions.
506[ipaterson 114d] Gotcha
507[kewagi 114d] hello chia!
508[ipaterson 114d] howdy
509[mikem 114d] 33
510[yithmas 114d] Thanks for the explanation @ryan_singer
511[damionbudd 114d] @ryan_singer do you expect hardware level compression or dedupe to work with chia or will the space already do this as it's layed out?
512[rompert 113d] i doubt there will be much point trying to dedupe or compress the data. as i understand it, it will be quite random, although sorted. don't think you could squeeze out anything
513[rompert 113d] i'm just a lurker though
514[ryan_singer 113d] @rompert is correct
515[medziar87 113d] So Chia coins aren't actively being made atm?
516[medziar87 113d] I don't understand the process or anything, but I definitely want in :P
517[damionbudd 113d] I figured as much thanks for the answer
518[rompert 113d] @medziar87 there is a "recent talk" and some slides linked on https://chia.network/ , start with that
519[kam1092 113d] so what's chia exactly
520[danjavia 113d] Hi everyone Someone can to explain me how chia run?
521[nisenbaum 113d] @danjavia  there is a "recent talk" and some slides linked on https://chia.network/
522[danjavia 113d] Thank you!
523[nisenbaum 113d] Has there been consideration of farming of chia via malicious/Trojan clients. Bitcoin was mined by malicious installs prior to Asics. Monero can be mined like that.
524[ajuoga 113d] @nisenbaum that sound scary
525[nisenbaum 113d] Yep. It's unfortunately a reality. Building resistance in to algorithm or protocol might be considered. But it's likely too early for that.
526[ryan_singer 113d] It's an interesting problem. We're thinking about it.
527[ryan_singer 113d] The only easy answers involve better endpoint security.
528[m920 113d] I am excited with this project. Hello from Manila!
529[ajuoga 113d] can you use network attached storage for farming as well or does it have to be the hard drive?
530[mbarkhau 113d] @ajuoga Disclaimer: This is only based on what I think I have understood from previous comments. In principle it should be possible, however I think the software will try to be as invisible to the file system layer as possible. You should be able to use your hard disk space as if the farming software were not even there. This requires some low level access to the disk which is probably difficult to do over the network. However you could probably run the farming software on the NAS machine itself.
531[ajuoga 113d] sounds reasonable
532[rompert 113d] i suppose all storage could be used. there would be no advantage of using the same network attached storage from multiple devices though.
533[ajuoga 113d] Maybe ability to allocate more space
534[bramcohen 113d] @izel We're going to use the Apache license. There's some chance we'll keep it a bit more proprietary when testnet is out but mainnet isn't up yet, but definitely Apache once mainnet is up
535[bramcohen 113d] @omar66 In case of a blockchain fork PoST systems don't have the same kinds of problems as PoW systems because extending the two chains isn't exclusive so they aren't fighting each other. This also makes blockchain forks a bit easier unfortunately. We view blockchain forks as an unambiguously bad thing. We're going to be sticking to the regular work difficulty adjustment algorithm with the time rounded off to the nearest hour or two because that minimizes grinding attacks (picking an end time is an unpleasant grinding attack vector). Likely we'll have a period after initial la
536unch where work resets are much more frequent and transactions aren't allowed, just to let the network settle down before anything really starts happening
537[bramcohen 113d] @damionbudd The data used for farming is completely non-dedupable as a core feature. It isn't 'useful' data, it's proof of space data
538[bramcohen 113d] There are some goofy things you'd like to do with farming. For example if you have a RAID array you'd like to crack it open for the farming data stored on it because that level of redundancy is completely unnecessary and not fully leveraging resources
539[krytikul 113d] Will the currency be named just Chia? Or Chia coins/chia seeds?
540[earlofgrey 113d] Word on the street is that there are over 200 ICOs launching just out of Israel in the next few months. By the end of 2018 there could be well over 2000 judging by how many have come out since bitcoin
541[nisenbaum 113d] @earlofgrey Buy eth! Yep, the space is crowded with tokens coins and all manner of innovation/junk. I would like to hear more about Chia distribution and launch.
542[nisenbaum 113d] If there are details to share. Probably too early.
543[mbarkhau 113d] I haven't even read if it will be open source
544[nisenbaum 113d] Apache license as per @bramcohen
545[mbarkhau 113d] Ahh, missed that. Thx
546[therealklanni 113d] Ello :)
547[bramcohen 113d] @krytikul The currency will be called 'Chia' What the equivalent of a Satoshi will be called hasn't been decided yet
548[bramcohen 113d] @earlofgrey I'm expecting that market to go down in flames in a bad way at some point in the future. The vast majority of those ICOs will never ship a product.
549[datdraggy 113d] Hey guys. Read about this project in a german news article and got really into it. Can't wait for Chia to launch.
550I'm probably gonna get my CEO into it too and set up our massive storage when the time has come.
551[znah 113d] Hi all, I'm pretty new to the crypto-land. Inherrent computational inefficiency of pow was stopping me from investing or using them. PoS seems like a real way forward.
552[danjavia 113d] I'll wait for launching
553[tsnieman 113d] @znah I imagine you'll probably wanna call it `PoST`, as `PoS` generally refers to proof of stake
554[znah 113d] What makes chia different from projects listed here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof-of-space ?
555[znah 113d] (this is genuine novice question, not a criticism)
556[znah 113d] (and torrents is one of the best things that happened to internet in its history:)
557[mautematico 113d] ¡Hola a todos!
558[mautematico 113d] greetings from Mexico!
559[alvarolizama 113d] Hi! from Mexico too
560[bramcohen 112d] @znah lack of brokenness mostly. One of my advisors is behind the spacemint paper and a coauthor on the new proofs of space paper, so Chia is of that lineage. Burstcoin is just busted.
561[clintg 112d] @bramcohen how about a microbram for the satoshi equivalent?
562[bramswenson 112d] too many brams!
563[bramswenson 112d] hi bram, i'm bram. nice to meet you. thanks for all your work over the years...between you and the other well known bram in tech (vim) i'm lined up for some serious impostor syndrome
564[ktrade 112d] Hello and thanks for letting me. Into the network. I think it sounds like a very exciting and. Ambitious project!
565[mikedd 112d] Hi all o/ Greetings from Romania. :)
566[bitinv 112d] Hi all, heard cohen is back .. good luck for chia !
567[ngdik 112d] Hi all, greetings from Hong Kong
568[cyptogeek 112d] Chia would require a trusted setup. It's crucial which setup; SNARK or STARK, STARK is most transparent and relies on trusting proof rather than aggregator ( you don't have to trust the aggregator). If SNARK Chia setup How many multiparties would you consider to be enough to prevent printing currency at this non transparent setup phase? The risk of collaboration to print money is still a risk and it would be considered safest with more parties. Compromise risks (eaves dropping or collaboration) are there, and forgery will become more likely as Chia increases in value. Transpar
569ency is why Bitcoin succeeded because no trust was required. Please point me to a whitepaper if it's covered already.
570[rompert 112d] @cyptogeek hi, just a reflection, i think your nickname is missing one or possibly two 'r'
571[cyptogeek 112d] Rompert Yes. Leaves room for a proper crypto geek. I'm a novice, so you're welcome to take the name if you're worthy
572[mbarkhau 112d] @cryptogeek is there anything you can suggest to read about what this trusted setup is all about?
573[mbarkhau 112d] i mean in general, not specifically for chia
574[datdraggy 112d] @cyptogeek lol that's nice of you xD
575[janprill 112d] @mbarkhau : a trusted setup has been done in zcash for example. They called it a ceremony and this is what is has been reading: https://minezcash.com/zcash-trusted-setup/ and especially https://petertodd.org/2016/cypherpunk-desert-bus-zcash-trusted-setup-ceremony - which is an interesting read.
576[datdraggy 112d] As @znah already asked, what makes Chia different from projects listed here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof-of-space ? I don't know much about this topic yet sadly and the reply didnt help me really. Could somebody send a link or explain?
577[mbarkhau 112d] @janprill thanks
578[cyptogeek 112d] @mbarkhau I read everything Eli Ben Sasson produces as he's a large contributer to Zero knowledge research https://youtu.be/kYmnXxs9kUM
579[cyptogeek 112d] @janprill  The problem with the zcash setup phase is that they used a multi party setup, but did not make it clear how many parties were involved. I may be incorrect, please let me know if I'm wrong, but the fact that you have to trust these members during the setup phase brings a distrust as noone knows if there is a member printing money becase they had eaves dropped during setup phase or have the hard drive where the keys were generated.
580[mbarkhau 112d] ihh, well the calim i read about chia, is that you only need to trust a single party in the trusted setup of chia for the whole thing to be trustworthy
581[janprill 112d] my opinion on the matter: as long as there is a certain point in time, where someone, regardless if it is a single person or a group, needs to have the trust and has the opportunity to do something he later says (or them later say) he/them hasn't done, it would leave room for doubts. And this is what is always happening, even if the ceremony is most sophisticated: People will doubt and even if it is only to spread FUD because they are contenders. Therefore I'd say: avoid a trusted setup if anyhow possible.
582[cyptogeek 112d] @janprill Would you trust zcash to have destroyed the node that created the setup phase. You may trust these individuals, but I don't want to have to trust anyone in the creation of a currency. This is why Bitcoin can be trusted because you don't need to trust individuals
583[cyptogeek 112d] @janprill agreed
584[cyptogeek 112d] @mbarkhau If someone decided to collude with another member with two parts of the key to enable them to print currency, the incentive is there. How many parties would be sufficient so that it would become impractical and unfeasible to collude to print money. And finally how can you be sure that someone has not eavesdropped through software or through sniffing to make copies of tgese keys, and finally how can you be sure tge node used to produce the setup key has been appropriately destroyed. I would only trust this if none of tge above were possible.  I'm afraid that any of th
585ese are possible and thus I do hope @bramcohen uses STARK
586[mbarkhau 112d] well, the larger the number of people there are that have to collude, the less feasible the collusion becomes
587[mbarkhau 112d] i agree, trust should be avoided if at all possible, but at this point I don't know enough about any of this or why it's even needed for chia
588[cyptogeek 112d] @mbarkhau to make it overly simplified, it's all about Zero Knowledge. Bringing fungibility and anonymity to cryptocurrency. This brings crypto closer to replicating money in digital form. Bitcoin is pseudo anonymous. So to over simplify again, zk prevents for example an exchange banning your coin because of it's historic usage, even if the dubious historical use had nothing to do with you. Such as a Bitcoin that had been stolen could be banned, a dollar does not suffer the same fungibility chrisis. Sorry this is the best I can do with my limited time.
589[mbarkhau 112d] oh sorry, i'm familiar with the basic goal of anonymity and fungibility yes, but i haven't grokked how it works
590[berryfarmer 112d] will chia_network require trusted setup, and are there efforts to make chia_network fungible i.e. Monero?
591[mbarkhau 112d] @berryfarmer my understanding is that it will be very close to bitcoin itself, ie. none of the fungibility stuff of Monero
592[mbarkhau 112d] which is why i'm a bit confused what the trusted setup is for
593[cyptogeek 112d] Monero doesn't have multi sig so cannot take advantage of many of the advances at this time sich as Lightning network,  atomic swaps and smart contracts. It's heavy and does not bode well with high traffic. They are working on this. But it does seem as though Chia uses a trusted setup, what form of trusted setup is the crucial question. If it's the same as zcash, I'm outa here.
594[berryfarmer 112d] cryptogeek Monero DOES have multisig, check the github
595[berryfarmer 112d] trusted setup is suicide
596[ryan_singer 112d] Right now, we're pretty committed to Bitcoin's TXO model. The reason for the trusted setup is that it's needed to set up the verifiable delay functions, or Proofs of Time.
597[cyptogeek 112d] @berryfarmer not compatible with Lightning network from the last time I checked. I'll check the github, thanks
598[berryfarmer 112d] cryptogeek Bitcoin isn't comptaible with Lightning network either
599[berryfarmer 112d] the tech doesn't exist
600[berryfarmer 112d] it's a buzzword
601[cyptogeek 112d] It does exist. Check the zap wallet
602[ryan_singer 112d] We will invest heavily in the lightning functionality. There will be no trusted setup for the currency or for the proofs of space, only proofs of time
603[ryan_singer 112d] Lightning is running already on Bitcoin testnet
604[ryan_singer 112d] You can get the client to play with it
605[cyptogeek 112d] It's work in progress at the mo with 6 teams working on it.
606[berryfarmer 112d] ryan_singer, if the currency is completely transparent with zero privacy, does it matter if trusted setup was used or not
607[berryfarmer 112d] seems to be a non-issue if the currency isn't fungible
608[berryfarmer 112d] okay cryptogeek will do
609[ryan_singer 112d] @berryfarmer the trusted setup for Chia is not for privacy
610[ryan_singer 112d] It's basically to sync the clocks for proofs of time
611[berryfarmer 112d] ryan_singer, the argument against trusted setup (i.e. in zcash) is it potentially destroys privacy. if there is no privacy inherent in the curency anyway, then it seems it doesn' tmatter either way if the currency was started with trusted setup or not
612[ryan_singer 112d] The currency will not be started with a trusted setup. Only the proofs of time will be. It's not comparable to how zcash did it.
613[cyptogeek 112d] Good point @berryfarmer . Thanks @ryan_singer So if the keys were eaves dropped could a genesis attack occur?
614[ryan_singer 112d] @bramcohen is a better person to ask about that, but I don't think so.
615[cyptogeek 112d] Thanks for the clarification @ryan_singer
616[bramcohen 112d] The trusted setup is for proofs of time. You'll only have to trust that a single person out of everyone involved in the setup ceremony was a good actor for the protocol to be secure. The proof of time keys getting cracked would be very very bad. We aren't going to be doing any zcash or monero style anonymity
617[mbarkhau 112d] @bramcohen i don't mean this as a question here, but I think you need to go into more depth at some point, why simple PoW mining as with Bitcoin is not enough for the PoT aspekt of chia. Why wouldn't it be enough for the reward to be very low, so that there is little incentive to put much hardware/power behind it, and so that it only serves the function of a basic clock, as opposed to securing the network.
618[cyptogeek 112d] @bramcohen how many multi party's would you consider to be enough to prevent stolen keys and have you chosen a method to create these keys: STARK or SNARK?
619[bramcohen 112d] @cyptogeek Several dozen should be plenty. The key setup will be its own primitive and I don't know the details yet, the paper isn't done yet
620[nisenbaum 112d] Are you working with or collaborting with zcash team? They seem to have traveled this road already. Using bitcoin core, trusted multiparty setup, etc.
621[nisenbaum 112d] Plus I prefer zcash funding & rollout process to ICO's. Any comments?
622[bramcohen 112d] Zcash is having a lot of problems with having diverged so far from bitcoin core that they can't rebase any more
623[nisenbaum 112d] I don't recall if it was their stated goal to stay so close to core that they can rebase. Is it chia project goal?
624[cyptogeek 112d] @nisenbaum Zcash was premined to benefit the major investors. It seemed to be a bit top heavy. Personally I feel a more "everyone and anyone invest" model such as non premined ICO will encourage more loyalty and excitement around Chia. Maybe a 1% levy on mining to fund the long term development (governance would be the cherry on top). coins that significantly premine or get most of their funding from large corporate doners put many off. IMO Bram et al have a very difficult funding model to undertake. With regulation and moral codes it seems a nine field and I don't have an ide
625a of the best one to pursue. If it were me I would re-locate to a crypto friendly country. But that's not easy when you've got family and friends, so I see the predicament. I've just got my fingers crossed that Bram pulls something good out of the bag.
626[nisenbaum 112d] and with such complex code projects contantly developing, not surprising that codebase diverged so much.
627[cyptogeek 112d] @nisenbaum Zcash was premined to benefit the major investors. It seemed to be a bit top heavy. Personally I feel a more "everyone and anyone invest" model such as non premined ICO will encourage more loyalty and excitement around Chia. Maybe a 1%!l(MISSING)evy on mining to fund the long term development (governance would be the cherry on top). coins that significantly premine or get most of their funding from large corporate doners put many off. IMO Bram et al have a very difficult funding model to undertake. With regulation and moral codes it seems a nine field and I don't ha
628ve an idea of the best one to pursue. If it were me I would re-locate to a crypto friendly country. But that's not easy when you've got family and friends, so I see the predicament. I've just got my fingers crossed that Bram pulls something good out of the bag.
629[nisenbaum 112d] yes. the funding model is a contentious issue. so much judgement, purity tests, name calling, greed, etc etc. I am for rewarding innovation and don't begrudge founders their share. hope for non-controversial rollout is best we can do now.
630[cyptogeek 112d] @nisenbaum @bramcohen Bitcoin is like the Linux of Crypto. Why reinvent the wheel. Bitcoin gets major development that Chia can take advantage of, plus remove the electricity wastage. It's genius. Zcash has made future development more difficult and expensive. Why dig the clay, mould and furnace the bricks, if you can just pick up some bricks and make your building. It may not be the colour bricks you wanted, but it gets the job done so you can focus on the important stuff.  Zcash are digging clay and building on untrustworthy foundations
631[nisenbaum 112d] @cyptogeek yes - it's a tradeoff. use proven codebase  vs. freedom to create more novel code and having to maintain it.
632[pseudoninja 111d] Code should never be written for sake of novelty
633[andrealisson 111d] Hii
634[andrealisson 111d] i am André
635[andrealisson 111d] For Brazil
636[andrealisson 111d] From*
637[ethamireum 111d] Thanks for adding me! Very excited about this. I started reading the thread, I see 1TB hard drive will likely be a minimum for farming, will an external hard drive like mybook be usable?
638[nisenbaum 111d] Hello @ethamireum external drive will be usable.
639[ethamireum 111d] Thanks for the quick reply! :)
640[username401 111d] So I know this coin hasn't released yet, but does anyone have plans of starting a pool?
641[nisenbaum 111d] Way too early for this. There is no code written specific to PoST. Something tells me that pooling might not be economically  feasible in chia.
642[mbarkhau 111d] @nisenbaum I'm pretty sure pools will be feasible, but the mindset of mining is inappropriate. The rewards will be so miniscule, that you probably shouldn't be thinking about having dedicated hardware for it.
643[mbarkhau 111d] that's why I think changing the terminology to farming is quite appropriate. you have a datacenter and the unused disk space on them happens to throw off a few extra coins, which you might as well harvest, but it's not worth the effort/electricity/hardware cost to set up any thing dedicated only to chia
644[username401 111d] If it's not worth the effort/electrcity/hardware cost to set up anything dedicated only to chia, than how will they achieve proper decentralization?  If only a few large datacenters are "farming" or mining coins, that would not be enough to ensure decentralization and anonymity.
645[rompert 111d] i think pooling is a must to minimize the lottery factor and to have more common people will join. fairly distributing shares to the closest matches will be an interesting problem to solve though.
646[curiousg 111d] So am I understanding this correctly if I say that, from a logical standpoint, decentralization concepts will follow the path of bittorrent? I mean - there is very little monetary incentive to seed media for bittorrent, but obviously it is widely done. Is that the thinking here? Community-support or ideology-backed farming?
647[mbarkhau 111d] No, there will be enough monetary incentive to farm, just not enough for it to be worth purchasing Hardware which is dedicated to nothing but chia.
648[mbarkhau 111d] At least long term, depending in the reward schedule it may be worth it early on.
649[username401 111d] So will Chia coin need a "faucet" like burst coin in order to start "farming" or mining?
650[mbarkhau 111d] My understanding is that farming rewards will be very similarly distributed to bitcoin
651[mbarkhau 111d] Apart from the open question of premining by the Chia company
652[curiousg 111d] except anyone can farm at near zero cost, so unless the value of the token/coin is very high, the rewards will be minimal. I know I'm still not getting it. Would be interesting to see the economy of things once available.
653[cyptogeek 111d] @username401 There is no useful storage of data; Chia farming does a snapshot of the storage available on your hard drive(s), and based on the storage as a % you will receive lottery type payouts for the amount you are willing to farm to Chia. So it's like the more tickets you buy the more likely you are to win. There will be no incentive to buy hard drives to farm Chia, as Chia works because of the amount of idle space sitting around at the moment not costing owners anything. What it does is make use of this idle space. As there is so much storage existing the chance of winni
654ng reward is extremely low for the average user, but considering it uses insignificant energy, bandwidth and the space is idle anyway, it's not a big deal if your reward is small and infrequent. Pools, miners, asics and burning wasted energy are not Chia.
655[username401 111d] So burst coin is the only other proof of space coin that I'm aware of beside the "bethecloud" based storage coins.  With burst you make well under a dollar a month per TB.  So maybe this figure could be considered when your trying to factor how much money you could earn while farming Chia.  Is my logic flawed?
656[cyptogeek 111d] @username401 There is no useful storage of data; Chia farming does a snapshot of the storage available on your hard drive(s), and based on the storage as a %!y(MISSING)ou will receive lottery type payouts for the amount you are willing to farm to Chia. So it's like the more tickets you buy the more likely you are to win. There will be no incentive to buy hard drives to farm Chia, as Chia works because of the amount of idle space sitting around at the moment not costing owners anything. What it does is make use of this idle space. As there is so much storage existing the chance
657 of winning reward is extremely low for the average user, but considering it uses insignificant energy, bandwidth and the space is idle anyway, it's not a big deal if your reward is small and infrequent. Pools, miners, asics and burning wasted energy are not Chia.
658[username401 110d] So will we need to "plot" our harddrives to mine Chia? With burst it took me a week to plot 7TB of harddrive space.  Will the same be true with Chia?
659[frogger 110d] Unless the coins design is grossly inflationary or the premine is like 50%
660[frogger 110d] Well I'll be buying drives to farm. I know a lot of people say its not going to be worth it but I doubt it. Plus I have the infrastructure to minimize costs and I'm okay with it taking a year or more to recoup costs since drives last 4-5 years when kept in good conditions.
661[frogger 110d] Unless the coins design is grossly inflationary or the premine is like 50%!
662(MISSING)[cyptogeek 110d] @bramcohen @frogger I'm sure Bram said that the farming payout does not cover the  cost of space, therefore there is no incentive to purchase more space. If you need the space for something anyway, then farm idle space while unused. @frogger you'll be disappointed if you're buying new gear to support Chia. Chia opens up farming in a massive way, thus creating true decentralisation. There will be those that try and get more tech with their farming, but the most they'll get out of it is 3x the amount, the cost outweighs the benefit to this though.
663[cyptogeek 110d] @bramcohen @frogger I'm sure Bram said that the farming payout does not cover the  cost of space, therefore there is no incentive to purchase more space. If you need the space for something anyway, then farm idle space while unused. @frogger you'll be disappointed if you're buying new gear to support Chia. Chia opens up farming in a massive way, thus creating true decentralisation. There will be those that try and get more tech with their farming, but the most they'll get out of it is 3x the amount, the cost outweighs the benefit to this though.
664[frogger 110d] @cyptogeek It's not up to Bram what the value of the rewards will be. It's up to the market. He's speculating as much as anyone else with that prediction. My guess is that there will be a large surge of casual "free space" farmers early on, but that most of these will forget about the project and their wallets will go dead, with some chia never making it to the exchange, and thereby increasing the market share of for-profit farmers.
665[frogger 110d] And when you consider that high capacity drives cost less $/TB than low capacity drives ($160 for 8TB versus $50 for 1TB) and that I have gpu mining rigs I can add drives to at no additional cost, I think the economics are on my side.
666[username401 110d] Has it been determined how often difficulty will increase?  Is it a set amount of time or a set amount of coins generated?  Is there any incentive to be the "time keeper"?  I'm into overclocking my cpu.  Is there a reason to run my 5.2Ghz CPU for proving time instead of just using it for gaming?
667[username401 110d] The more time servers the more decentralization and this will probably also mean more anonymity.  If the goverment of China controls 90% of time servers wouldn't they be able to track whos spending what?
668[frogger 110d] It seems like there will only be the need for a few trusted time servers. I guess a selfish "time keeper" could run a time server and only relay solutions when it helps them, but as long as a few others with comparable hardware are broadcasting selflessly I don't think it would be necessary for the average user to do so.
669[username401 110d] The more time servers the more decentralization and this will probably also mean more anonymity.  If the goverment of China controls 90%!o(MISSING)f time servers wouldn't they be able to track whos spending what?
670[ryan_singer 110d] @username401; everyone sees every transaction, like with Bitcoin. Every government will know which Chia are being spent, and so will you. Exchanges will know who is buying and selling and they will tell the government. Crypto currency is worse for privacy than cash, and always has been.
671[frogger 110d] My understanding is that the time server only exists to make a remine from genesis attack much more difficult, by adding some computational difficulty between each proof of space block, and that the time server controller doesn't gain any special network control
672[ryan_singer 110d] That's my understanding, too. The space winner structures the block and the time server approves it. @bramcohen can weigh in on particular incentives for the time servers.
673[gmtaylor 110d] Is the goal to be a "better bitcoin" to be a prominent competition or is the goal to try and replace the bitcoin.
674[username401 110d] I would think the goal would be to replace bitcoin.  It seems that Cohen was pretty upset at bitcoin miners throwing a fit over a potential softfork.  Also bitcoin as well as almost every other cryptocoin use large amounts of electricity.  This proof of space type coin could be much much better for the enviroment.
675[username401 110d] "At this rate, the bitcoin network runs at 342934450 watts, which equates to around 343 megawatts. Calculations based on  EIA data reveal that the average US household consumes about 1.2 kilowatts of power, meaning that 343 megawatts would be enough to power 285,833 US homes at the time of writing (May 2015)." -https://www.thebalance.com/how-much-power-does-the-bitcoin-network-use-391280
676[gmtaylor 110d] My concern is that bitcoin has become a commodity as it is near impossible to mine as an individual and asics are quickly inefficient driving up the price and the price is a large part in the hype how will the growth of chia unfold as this will be a different story as all users can Farm will data centres and servers take a major share of the farming and rewards and will the average user be left out over time as the difficulty increases?
677[ryan_singer 110d] @gmtaylor I think it'll be more like seeding your hard disk is done to enter the lotteries. Most of the winners will probably be small farmers, but most small farmers will never win.
678[username401 110d] So in Burst coin (The only other proof of space coin that I know of)  the harddrive space must be "plotted"  this act of plotting takes a VERY long time.  Roughly a day per TB if I'm not mistaken.
679[username401 110d] I see asics as driving up the difficulty, but not the price of bitcoins.  The bitcoin to USD price is determined by the market.  In theory Asics should actually drive the price of bitcoin down.  It jus that the increase in demand has far exceeded the increase of supply.
680[frogger 110d] @gmtaylor datacenters and cloudstorage providers make really high returns on their hardware, likely much more than they would make farming
681[username401 110d] If Chia farmers need to "plot" there harddrives in order to farm with there extra space, I honestly don't see to many people "seeding".
682[ryan_singer 110d] @username401 ASICs don't increase the supply of Bitcoin, they just centralize the supply of it. Chia will also need to do a process we call "seeding" a disk, and it will take significant amounts of time once per drive.
683[gmtaylor 110d] I am excited about this project. I want to be an early investor. What is the projected pre release token sale price?
684[frogger 110d] @username401 burstcoin plotting can be done at much faster rates. like 4hr/TB with a good cpu or 1hr/TB with a good GPU.
685[username401 110d] If I'm not mistaken ASICs are made to mine bitcoin as quickly and as cheaply as possible.  This act of mining increases the amount of bitcoin.    But yes, I agree that the major Asic miners are centralizing or "undecentralizing" the bitcoin network.
686[username401 110d] Frogger I plotting a 7TB harddrive in roughly 8 days using 10 cores of 2 hexacore processors.  Dude, it takes forever.  Yes GPU plotters are a bit quicker, but 4hr/TB is still slow in my book.
687[frogger 110d] @username401 i think ASICS mine bitcoin "better" but not "faster" the generation rate is controlled by difficulty I believe
688And it needs to be slow. If it was too fast you'd basically be replacing Proof of Space with Proof of Work by just generating nonces on the spot
689[ryan_singer 110d] @username401 : Bitcoin mining difficulty adjusts every 210k blocks to bring it back to 10min block times. If you doubled the hashpower on the network, you'd only have extra earnings for a few days or so.
690[username401 110d] @ryan_singer Good point,  So what will be the block times for Chia?  Will Chia ultimately be able to perform transactions faster than Bitcoin?  Would on the spot, scan my phone to pay for a happymeal, potentially be a thing for Chia coin?
691[frogger 110d] @username401 plotting, or seeding will always be limited to 2 bottlenecks by the way.
6921) being how many seeds/min your processor can create and
6932) being the write speed to your storage device.
694It sounds like you were limited by the second. Maybe USB connected?
695[ryan_singer 110d] With lightning network, yes. We plan to support lightning from the first release of the wallet.
696[username401 110d] @frogger Spot on.. Yes I was using an external harddrive and was stuck with usb 2.0.    I bought a usb 3.0 drive that will fit in the server blade I'm running at my house.  Should be significantly faster.
697[frogger 110d] ah yes. there it is. 3.0 will be a big jump for you
698[gmtaylor 110d] I'm building a new computer system what will be the optimal amount of data storage for chia farming and how profitable will it be?
699[chalbersma 110d] Hey. How does Chia farming work exactly?
700[frogger 110d] @gmtaylor more storage will = more chia, but profitability will be entirely up to the market value
701[frogger 110d] @chalbersma You're computer will generate a bunch of "seeds" that will be stored on a hard drive. This process will take a while but once its done the hard work is over. Afterwards you're computer will simply need to do a quick pass on the drive for every new block to see if any of your seeds is a winner and if it is you get a reward in chia
702[chalbersma 110d] How important is fast access to that storage? Like if I attach an array of tape drives will that hurt my chances?
703[gmtaylor 110d] There fore the amount of drive space is irrelevant as long as there is enough to hold the block chain?
704[frogger 110d] think of each seed like a lottery ticket, the more you have the better your chance of winning
705[ryan_singer 110d] @chalbersma fast access isn't that important during farming, but the seeding process takes multiple passes at reading and writing the whole allocated space, so tape drives might be very difficult to seed
706[chalbersma 110d] Makes sense, is there example code of the process available?
707[frogger 110d] @chalbersma Well speed will be important to a degree, as you need to complete your search and send in results before the next block starts. I think Bram was throwing around possible times like 5 or 10 minute blocks during one of the videos
708[ryan_singer 110d] not yet; but we'll release acaidemic papers about the building blocks, and all implementation code will be open source
709[ryan_singer 110d] @frogger : sorta. Because the seeds will be sorted already on disk, you'll already know which sector has the proof you're looking for. You won't need to do a search per block
710[frogger 110d] @ryan_singer ahh very cool
711[chalbersma 110d] Is there any plan to allow "useful" information to be embedded into seeds? So that in essence chia becomes a distributed storage network. So like
712`seed:data:datachecksum` the mining can depend only on the seed but people could "attach" their data to a particular seed? Not sure if this is a goal.
713[ryan_singer 110d] no; it's the opposite of the goal. The seeds will be completely wasteful by design
714[ryan_singer 110d] Bitcoin-like descentralization requires an economic cost to mining. Chia keeps that dynamic in farming by requiring "wasted" HDD space
715[chalbersma 110d] @ryan_singer That has a certain amount of logic to it. But if we're organizing a bunch of disparate people who are willing to organize hdd space somehow allowing more useful access to that space seems like it would be a nice to have.
716[ryan_singer 110d] unfortunately, a scheme like that wouldn't be secure as a PoW alternative. We'd rather do the main thing than accomplish side goals.
717[chalbersma 110d] Makes sense, it's essentially the same argument for why sha256d over something like primecoin's algorithm.
718[frogger 110d] On the topic of tape drives. I think people see the price of the tapes and assume it will be cheap, but the drives to use the tapes are very expensive, and I think it only becomes economical when your goal is cold storage, and not for an application like this.
719[ryan_singer 110d] :+1:
720[chalbersma 110d] Ya, I use tape as a tounge in cheek example. Tape sucks.
721[frogger 110d]  i mean if you wanted to build a robot that archives and switches your tapes for you, you might be on to something ;)
722[chalbersma 110d] lols
723[andrealisson 110d] Hello. I'm new to the group, I'd like to know the news.
724[andrealisson 110d] I would like to know about the project and how I can be part of it. I also wonder if this CHIA project has anything to do with a new digital currency?
725[cyptogeek 110d] @andrealisson Chia is so new there is not much news out there. You could do a standard search on Google and find most news has been out in the last few weeks. Yes to a new, not yet developed digital currency. To be part of it, learn about it, help when you can and do whatever you can. There is no fixed path, it's an exciting eco crypto. Welcome
726[bramcohen 110d] @nisenbaum Yes we have a goal of staying as close to Bitcoin as possible. Ideally we'll eventually make it so that Bitcoin is a patch off Chia instead of the other way around
727[bramcohen 110d] @username401 We're planning on farming being nonoutsourceable which is going to make running a for-profit pool very difficult. We view this as a feature
728[bramcohen 110d] @username401 Work difficulty will be reset on roughly the same schedule as it is in Bitcoin. It's a single number which applies to both space and time, which is why the two of them have to be multiplied together for each block
729[bramcohen 110d] @frogger You are free to purchase storage for the purposes of farming if you so desire. There are circumstances under which that could be profitable, at least for a period of time. But caveat emptor, buyer beware, past performance is no guarantee of future performance, etc. etc. But I do request that if you have storage that you participate in our testnet once we have it up.
730[bramcohen 110d] Seeding a hard drive for Chia will require a few passes over the disk. It isn't clear yet how much CPU will be involved, but I expect disk write speeds to be the bottleneck
731[frogger 110d] @bramcohen  I will definitely join the testnet. And of course I'm not investing more than I can afford to lose etc etc
732[fweno 110d] Hello, I'm sorry, quick question @bramcohen, there is a date when the testnet will be avaliable?
733[bramcohen 110d] @fweno When it's done. Hopefully sometime next year, but I make no promises
734[bramcohen 110d] I spent a bunch of time the last few days talking to a journalist about the dynamics of space and especially time. That should be up soon so I can link to it
735[timhun 110d] :+1:
736[nisenbaum 110d] Thanks for responding @bramcohen
737[matthewang 109d] hello
738[bpolegar 109d] hi everyone!
739[cryptoyhh 109d] Hey! Guys.
740[nisenbaum 109d] Hello
741[nurazhar 109d] will chia network work with NAS (for farming)?
742[nurazhar 109d] I mean if there's an intention to support NAS
743[cyptogeek 109d] @nurazhar Yes it will. As long as you can instsll the Chia farming software you're good to go
744[nurazhar 109d] hopefully it's easy to figure out
745[username401 109d] Will there be a significant advantage to "farming" with a solidstatedrive over farming with the older platterbased harddrives?
746[nisenbaum 109d] No advantage with SSD over platter.
747[nisenbaum 109d] Actually worse with SSD as the price per TB  is higher. Hopefully that will change soon.
748[nisenbaum 109d] But don't think of it as business. As @bramcohen keeps saying, the goal is to make it impractical to centralize the farming of chia.
749[ryan_singer 109d] The way I like to think of it is that we'd like farming to be so widespread that the average block is found by a small farmer, but the average small farmer has not yet found a block.
750[username401 109d] @ryan_singer If the average small farmer has not yet found a block it wouldn't be long before the average farmer quits trying to find blocks in the first place.  [Definition of insanity] How many crazy people are there with extra harddrive space?
751[ryan_singer 109d] The only real cost to farming is the initial seeding "quitting" farming is the equivalent of not checking lottery tickets you've already paid for.
752[username401 109d] It was also mentioned that attempts are being made to prevent "pooling".  So somehow most blocks will be found by small farmers with maybe 1 or 2 TB harddrive space dedicated to Chia.  How will this be accomplished?  It just doesn't seem possible to me.
753[username401 109d] @ryan_singer Yes, but I actually use almost all of my harddrive space.  I can thank Cohens bittorrent for that.  I have some externals just loaded with movies I've only watched once and didn't want to delete.  Why would anyone want to sacrifice a terabyte of HD space for a very very small chance of winning a block of chia coins?  I don't buy lottery tickets for almost the same reason.  (Limited amount of money to buy tickets, low probability of winning, better to put my money into other uses.)  Something doesn't seem right here...
754[curiousg 109d] This goes back to my thinking that people will dedicate the space for the same reason they are seeding media for bittorrent (very little to no economic incentive, plus there are no copyright violations when providing space for Chia farming unlike bittorrent, i.e., even more incentivizing). I have several TBs lying aroud and will be happy dedicating them to Chia. Might not seem right, but hey - users are seeding bittorrent, right? @username401 - all good questions. I'm trying to understand this better myself.
755[bramcohen 109d] Many people seed torrents and buy lottery tickets
756[djstickyd 108d] @bramcohen how many TB would be a good start if I was considering farming?
757[ryan_singer 108d] I'm not Bram, but I'll take a shot: seed and farm with what you already have. Don't buy disks for farming unless the network is mature and you can calculate directly.
758[djstickyd 108d] Also, will the seeds be allocated and packaged with data or transactions, or "empty"
759[bramcohen 108d] Transactions are added at block creation time
760[stellarmagnet 108d] how difficult would it be to fork chia to add an identity-verification layer for farmers? i like the eco coin, but i think that it would only works for the vision i have for it, if you put per-person caps in place. i don't think the whole world would agree to this forked currency, and that's fine, it's a highly ideological fork. but i am personally interested in a blockchain that can transition towards money not mattering, and hence the farming is just some passive thing that happens not for the financial incentives, but because "fuck the system". hence i am looking for a
761blockchain that's good for the environment where people are farming as a public service.
762[gmtaylor 108d] As far as I understand the chia coin isnt a fork but a new coin alltogether. @stellarmagnet
763[gmtaylor 108d] and the idea is that the average joe can contribute and have a chance to get a reward.
764[stellarmagnet 108d] @gmtaylor I know I was talking about forking chia :D lol
765[nisenbaum 108d] @stellarmagnet the network will be released under apache license. forking it will be possible, but will come with all the forking downsides as any other alt.
766[nisenbaum 108d] maybe adding the layer on top that will enforce your requirements will be more productive
767[stellarmagnet 108d] yeah that would be ideal then we dont have to maintain the chia
768[stellarmagnet 108d] but we want an alt
769[nisenbaum 108d] well then, best path is to contribute to chia, and once it's launched and gets traction, make your move
770[frogger 108d] yeah it seems like a strange approach to be wanting to fork a coin that doesn't even exist yet
771[stellarmagnet 108d] haha strange is all about me
772[stellarmagnet 108d] but the green stuff is so great, why weird? the rest of it doesnt necessarily work for our vision. i believe in not re-inventing the wheel
773[ryan_singer 108d] I'm not sure ideological forks are useful, but feel free to try :-)
774[stellarmagnet 108d] if your ideologies aren't aligned, that's what you'd say!
775[ryan_singer 108d] True story
776[ryan_singer 108d] I'm an excellent straw man, because I have an easy time staying on script ;-)
777[nisenbaum 108d] @ryan_singer is there a meetup for chia in bay area?
778[stellarmagnet 108d] Like there is Hyperledger that is meant to be an open source blockchain, I don't see why Chia can't be thought of in a similar manner (build a blockchain that meets your needs, but good for environment)
779[nisenbaum 108d] has anyone photoshopped @bramcohen in to this thing yet? https://cdn.thisiswhyimbroke.com/images/bob-ross-chia-pet-640x534.jpg
780[nisenbaum 108d] :grinning:
781[ryan_singer 108d] A Meetup is a good idea.
782[gmtaylor 108d] how will the test network work. will it be the actual launch just unoficial?
783[moeadham 107d] If proof of elapsed time is a thing, there are a lot of really interesting new Mining approaches we can attempt. But I remain skeptical it is a thing?
784[batlantis 107d] can`t wait chia release.  the prokect still "underground"
785[gmtaylor 107d] same but i think it will take a good chunk of time before they have the project underway and ready to launch
786[batlantis 107d] No problem about time, I only want to be one of "first"  get chia. :-)
787[nisenbaum 107d] Is there a roadmap for the project?
788[nisenbaum 107d] Who else besides Bram is working on this currently?
789[giannidalerta 107d] So considering that there is technically no advantage to total storage capacity, wouldn't it just make sense to have a bunch of cheap, smaller rigs to that you have more "lottery" entries. I hear Bram say one attack was to reformat your drive, but that would not be efficient.
790What constitutes a "lottery" entry into the chia system?
791[username401 107d] Or what about a bunch of virtual machines on a buncher of smaller rigs?  Turn each cheap computer into 10 VM's.  Boom, your cheating the system.  I really don't see how you can prevent pooling, or make it so that mostly smaller farmers get chia coins, but I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
792[nisenbaum 107d] The goal is to spread the rewards so thin that centralization is impractical. 10 VM's sharing 10TB might not be more advantageous than I machine farming same 10TB.
793[giannidalerta 106d] If you spead them so thin, will there be anyone who wants to "play" the game? I understand the incentive to seed torrents. However the majority of what people are downloading is pirated software and media. Many dont even have the foggiest idea what seeding is. They download the software, find the sites with the torrents, hit download done. They get their goods, and move on. With the current mining you have an expectation of return for helping. Do a majority of people in society like to participate in lotteries? I want to like Chia, Bram has shown his prowess. Just want to
794understand the incentive structure for people to secure the network.
795[cyptogeek 106d] @nisenbaum funding needed to take on enough programmers to work out roadmap. @ryan_singer & @bramcohen are currently the main programmers. This is so eary in development there is not enough development to get this off the ground anytime soon. Thus the funding process will begin q2 of 2018 to pay for development.
796[cyptogeek 106d] @giannidalerta sysyem relies on idle hard drive space which exists today. Hardly any energy or bandwidth required, therefore it's worth it as a farmer (like a miner). As you fill up your hardrive with data you reduce the amount you farm, so your stake is less. Considering there is no cost to you as a farmer other than the 2 mins installing software, it is enough incentive. Especially as the price of Chia increases.
797[ryan_singer 106d] You might have to run a full node; which is a reasonable about of bandwidth keeping up with the mempool
798[username401 106d] @cryptogeek  To put things in perspective, I just had to delete a few movies and other miscellaneous files so I could fit another steam game on my harddrive.  I have  750GB total space split between two SSD's.  I'm using roughly 90% of that right now.  The time it takes to "plot" your harddrive space in order to begin farming will take almost a day per TB if plotting for Chia is similar to plotting for burstcoin.  Were is your 2minutes figure coming from?  Another thing I've noticed from burst is that is advantagouse to have larger plots as opposed to a series of smaller plo
799ts because you run less of a chance of drawing the same lottery number twice.  (Am I wrong here?  This is still a gray area for me.)  I know the goal is to make is so that most coins are farmed by small farmers, and most farmers will probably never or very rarely generate a coin, but I just don't see how that can be accomplished.  As I stand right now, if Im not in a pool to mine burst, I will basically NEVER win any burst coins, and the same holds true for all other major cryptocurrencies.  I think I share the same feelings about this as giannidalerta.
800[cyptogeek 106d] @ryan_singer . So would you need to run a full node in order to farm? That's great for decentralisation if that's the case
801[username401 106d] @cryptogeek  To put things in perspective, I just had to delete a few movies and other miscellaneous files so I could fit another steam game on my harddrive.  I have  750GB total space split between two SSD's.  I'm using roughly 90%!o(MISSING)f that right now.  The time it takes to "plot" your harddrive space in order to begin farming will take almost a day per TB if plotting for Chia is similar to plotting for burstcoin.  Were is your 2minutes figure coming from?  Another thing I've noticed from burst is that is advantagouse to have larger plots as opposed to a series of sm
802aller plots because you run less of a chance of drawing the same lottery number twice.  (Am I wrong here?  This is still a gray area for me.)  I know the goal is to make is so that most coins are farmed by small farmers, and most farmers will probably never or very rarely generate a coin, but I just don't see how that can be accomplished.  As I stand right now, if Im not in a pool to mine burst, I will basically NEVER win any burst coins, and the same holds true for all other major cryptocurrencies.  I think I share the same feelings about this as giannidalerta.
803[cyptogeek 106d] @username401 There is no need to sit there infront of your computer waiting for the plotting process to complete. You download the programme and run the file. Unless I'm mistaken @ryan_singer users won't have to confirm each plot, the ambition is for the programme to be started, preferences chosen and for the programme to do the rest.  That's where I get the 2 minutes from.
804[cd 106d] operationally speaking, write permissions might be only used in the provisioning stage (if I understand how it works correctly)
805[gmtaylor 106d] The block chain would increase in size over time wouldnt it?
806[nisenbaum 106d] @gmtaylor yes it will grow over time.
807[djpandemic 106d] Curious about how some of the new storage methods in Windows would play it as far as  meeting test for space.  ie volume larger than actual storage present or storage added to existing volume. Would it need to reverify the entire volume or would it have a more intelligent approach to it?
808[cyptogeek 106d] I do like this news report https://buff.ly/2AadZOf | Some more technical color on Proofs of Space and Time buff.ly/2AadZOf
809[recursinging 105d] Would it be resonable to assume farming will be possible on top of an abstraction of multiple, heterogeneous cloud storage providers (via FUSE, or a block level abstraction)? Or will the "seeding" process make this approach prohibitive?
810[nisenbaum 105d] @recursinging it's quite early to confirm that. from what i am reading so far, probabaly yes. but the amount of effort and resources spent putting together large farm will not pay off with proportionally larger rewards.
811[recursinging 105d] @nisenbaum I understand the idea here is to reduce the economic viability of resource scaling to encourage de-centralization - probably works for honest folks who pay for their storage. But I was thinking about it more from an "bad actor" perspective.  It's probably not too hard to abuse free-tier cloud storage providers with fake accounts, and botnets, malware as multipliers, etc. In a sense, I think the centralization in bitcoin moved away from "bad actors" as mining viability moved away from commodity hardware because the I in ROI was suddenly > 0. Does this type of demo
812cratization not just move centralization into the shadows?
813[frogger 105d] @ryan_singer you mentioned before that "the seeds will be sorted already on disk, you'll already know which sector has the proof you're looking for. You won't need to do a search per block"
814Could you or @bramcohen comment on how this might apply to someone wanting to abuse cloud storage. Could they simply download the section with the proof they need? Just how efficient will proof checks be?
815[username401 105d] Scenarios.... So lets say I have 100gigs of freespace on my harddrive.  I run a chia plotting program and it plots all 100gigs for use in farming chiacoins.  Later I want to download a  3gb video.   Do we have to delete the entire 100gigs of chia plotting to make room for this video?  (This is currently the case with Burstcoin)  Will you guys be able to somehow automatically delete just enough of the plot to allow me to download this video?  Scenario 2.... So lets say I then decide I don't want to play a steam game anymore.  I delete the game from my harddrive and now have 4
8160gigs extra free space.  Will I be able to quickly and easily add this additional 40gigs to an exsisting Chia plot?
817[nisenbaum 105d] @recursinging I hear you. i raised that question ealier here. was not totally convinced by response, but keybase makes it hard to search chat logs, so can't quote.
818[ryan_singer 105d] @username401 ; the video will only overwrite 3GB of proofs, the remaining 97GB would still be seeded. Seeding more space may be better off re-seeding the whole disk.
819[ryan_singer 105d] @frogger ; people will be able to farm free cloud offers. If that gets popular AWS will probably change the structure of the free tier.
820[ryan_singer 105d] Regarding botnets, there is not much we can do to improve endpoint security. Any software you can run is software that a botnet can run an a rooted computer. The best we can do is make it easy for people to check if their hard drive is seeded and recommend tools for removing malware.
821[culv3r 105d] Was just catching up on the chat, but @bramcohen @ryan_singer I have immense respect for the proofs that go into this work. My cryptography finals definitely give me headaches and an appreciation for the mathematical work that is performed to showcase the correctness of these ideas.
822[bramcohen 105d] The proofs of space we're going to use have extremely minimal requirements after initial setup. They have a single lookup (well maybe a bit of binary searching, not totally sure of that yet) to find the result they're looking for with each block. Easy to use on remote storage. To use it on the cloud you either have to upload the entire thing to the remote storage or somehow get the setup to be done on the remote system which is nontrivial but involves a lot less bandwidth. The first one might be somewhat expensive and the second one might be difficult to do, but there is a cha
823nce that some people offering free unlimited cloud storage will have to take that back
824[bramcohen 105d] Because of how the lookups are done taking back storage is straightforward: You just overwrite it. The plot can be done on unallocated disk space and accessed via the raw disk API, and if the real file system has overwritten that section then oh well
825[bramcohen 105d] @culv3r The construction in the asiacrypt paper came from me, but the proof of it was done by coauthors and I don't really understand it yet. My own approach is fairly intuitive and hand-wavy hence the need for coauthors
826[culv3r 105d] Still, it's an impressive piece of mathematical engineering and if all goes well, one that is good for change.
827[bramcohen 105d] There's lots of work left to be done. There are two other big pieces of it: Proofs of time and hooking everything together into a blockchain. The plan is to have refereed papers on all of these things
828[bramcohen 105d] Having an in-person meetup is a good idea. We should do one either right before or right after the holidays
829[cyptogeek 104d] @nisenbaum searching chat logs are easier on Windows. The phone app I suppose has to be more streamlined. It will get easier to search chat logs sometime soon.
830[mrjonny2 104d] Hi all,
831So I was reading up about how chia works, and I like the idea, however, what stops me mounting something like google drive or some other cloud storage option as a disk that has given me unlimited space and farming that?  Does Chia have a maximum partition size cutoff? or will the latency kill this idea?
832[nisenbaum 104d] I vote for meetup right before new year or right after, maybe Dec 28 or 29th?
833[kodinas 104d] Chia will be similar to Siacoin?
834[kodinas 104d] Chia will have storage space?
835[username401 104d] @kodinas As far as I know.  No.. Chia coin will not sell storage space like Siacoin.
836[cyptogeek 104d] @kodinas Chia is a proof of storage, but no meaningful data is stored.
837[kodinas 104d] It's a shame because I'm trying Siacoin and it's great !!
838There are many things that are missing.
839I thought maybe that was going to improve chia
840[bramcohen 104d] @mrjonny2 Services offering 'unlimited free storage' may have to rethink that model
841[mrjonny2 104d] @bramcohen I wonder how long it will take them to do that. Even some of the awful services like bluehost offer it, wonder if they will catch on.
842[kodinas 104d] Siacoin is not unlimited and has a price but it is quite interesting ... I am testing it.
843[nisenbaum 104d] those services that give away free space will develop countermeasures against abuse, just like they have them in place now against other types of abuse. Chia does not seem to be hard to detect.
844[bramcohen 104d] Siacoin offers different functionality. It provides a way of posting rewards for future archival storage of specific files. Its mining is completely normal, using blake2b
845[gmtaylor 103d] @bramcohen what are the best things for people who want to support and be part of the chi project now and later on to do?
846[leonidshamis 103d] Hello. I'm very interested in the project. After reading pages and pages of Keybase messages, I have the following questions:
847- Which operating system(s) will the the software (mining, plotting/seeding, wallet) be released for? (Windows, Linux, etc.)
848- Where is the Software Development happening at the moment? Github? Is it Open Source? Is there a way to contribute? What skills are required?
849- Will miners be rewarded with Chia coins, like with Burst coin?
850- Will Internet connection speed and bandwidth be factors that will be important for mining? I.e. fast internet connection will be required and is better than Wi-Fi or large bandwidth will be required/expected, etc...
851[bramcohen 103d] @gmtaylor We'll be posting ways people can help to the announcements list as they come up https://groups.google.com/a/chia.network/forum/#!forum/announce
852[bramcohen 103d] @leonidshamis Plan is to support all standard OSs eventually, although rollout won't be simultaneous for everything. Software development is just getting started and we don't have official repos yet, but they'll probably be on keybase for the time being, eventually moving to github. It will be Apache licensed by the time of launch. Right now we're hiring and there are jobs described on our home page. Other ways of helping out will come up in the future. Farming rewards will be in Chia. Quality of internet connection will matter very little.
853[nisenbaum 103d] What will be the license while in dev/testnet?
854[bramcohen 103d] testnet will be Apache once the public network is launched. Until then it might be something more proprietary, to try to discourage any jokers from launching it prematurely
855[nisenbaum 103d] But no IP sales like Tezos, I hope.
856[nurazhar 103d] :+1:
857[automonous 103d] I'm here because of Ari Lerner
858[nisenbaum 102d] I️ have PoS. Proof of stuffing. Turkey. Cheers everyone!
859[chalbersma 102d] Gobble Gobble!
860[bramcohen 102d] I made a 16 pound bird. We have leftovers for weeks
861[chalbersma 102d] Nice.
862[nisenbaum 102d] Friday lunch is turkey sandwich. Friday dinner is turkey tacos. Saturday breakfast is salad.
863[djpandemic 102d] 24 lb bird because all the small ones were snatched up.  Uncarved half sitting in the garage until I get around to cutting it up in an hour or so. Entertaining making turkey stew.
864[cryptonoob 102d] Hi all, thanks for having me. Happy Thanksgiving to those that celebrate it :)
865[emberous 101d] hello @bramcohen when will chia become available on market ? i like to buy it with all of my savings
866[bramcohen 101d] We're planning on doing some kind of sale to the public next year but I don't recommend you put your entire life savings into it
867[emberous 101d] @bramcohen when i was watching your interview, you had huge confidence in Chia may surpass bitcoin :D nvm i read a lot about cryprocurrency, felt like chia is something different or better than others. Do you have any information about buying process, do i need ewallet for this ?
868[bramcohen 101d] We'll announce the mechanics of the sale when the time comes. We're working on it.
869[emberous 101d] anyway to make early buy ? not that much, around 100k. damn i can't wait for it :D
870[emberous 101d] @bramcohen anyway to make early buy ? not that much, around 100k. damn i can't wait for it :D. Thank you for your information
871[bramcohen 101d] @emberous No we're trying to make it as transparent and equitable as possible
872[thechef 101d] @emberous that doesn't seem smart, why not mine it man?
873[emberous 101d] @bramcohen that makes sense, thank you for information.
874[bramcohen 101d] @thechef There will be a pre-mine (er, pre-farm) of currency whose allocation will be split between being earmarked to fund future development and going to the team
875[emberous 101d] @thechef nah man, i will mine it. Don't know why, but i have great hope in Chia.
876[thechef 101d] @bramcohen I can understand this, but what percentages are we talking here?
877[thechef 101d] @emberous @bramcohen I think premining is kinda bad for a coin, I'd rather see a fee or tariff based mechanism put in place for development crews
878[bramcohen 101d] @thechef Technically it isn't a percentage because we aren't going to do the halving of rewards so there's no limit to the amount of Chia which will be farmed but its rate of inflation as a percentage of what's already been farmed will go down over time. We haven't finalized the allocations yet. We'll be fully transparent about the plan when we do the sales to the public
879[thechef 101d] Oui chef
880[thechef 101d] @bramcohen Is there any papers I can read about this?
881[bramcohen 101d] @thechef So far there's just what's linked from the home page. There will be more in the future
882[cyptogeek 101d] @thechef I agree about pre mining. Personally there's many coins I won't invest in due to this reason. I like Decred's governance model where users can vote on developments. It would be amazing to have a % of farming go to development and the governance would priotize the future development. A develop and run possibility  is what I wouldn't like. Although I don't see Bram doing this. If I'm investing big I want to know there is long term incentive for long term development. Too many coins out there where founders walked off, leaving the future questionable. After the initial p
883re mine I can see there is an incentive to increase it's value by sticking around, but if there's better profits in making and breaking off, or if the increase in asset value is not profitable enough in the short term it leaves the coin under threat of falling to the wayside with lack of support.
884[thechef 101d] @bramcohen thanks
885[cyptogeek 101d] @thechef I agree about pre mining. Personally there's many coins I won't invest in due to this reason. I like Decred's governance model where users can vote on developments. It would be amazing to have a %!o(MISSING)f farming go to development and the governance would priotize the future development. A develop and run possibility  is what I wouldn't like. Although I don't see Bram doing this. If I'm investing big I want to know there is long term incentive for long term development. Too many coins out there where founders walked off, leaving the future questionable. After the
886initial pre mine I can see there is an incentive to increase it's value by sticking around, but if there's better profits in making and breaking off, or if the increase in asset value is not profitable enough in the short term it leaves the coin under threat of falling to the wayside with lack of support.
887[cyptogeek 101d] You could even set the % of funding to a quite high level to start with. Say 20% and work it gradually smaller as the chances of  Chia increases in value, so when Chia reaches $100 the development fund % drops to a lower level of 2%. Long term development funding is necessary otherwise what's incentivising developers to stick around developing Chia if they can go develop a new coin
888[thechef 101d] I just think automated funding for the futures future of the platform would be a neat addition, would be a guaranteed way for advancement
889[cyptogeek 101d] You could even set the %!o(MISSING)f funding to a quite high level to start with. Say 20%!a(MISSING)nd work it gradually smaller as the chances of  Chia increases in value, so when Chia reaches $100 the development fund %!d(MISSING)rops to a lower level of 2%! (MISSING)Long term development funding is necessary otherwise what's incentivising developers to stick around developing Chia if they can go develop a new coin
890[thechef 101d] Just a percentage of the fees, would but a subtle encouragment, crowdfund the start of you must, ... Maby I'm going off half cocked but I guess we will know more about the mechanics of the coin later down the track
891[username401 101d] Will efforts be made to ensure that Chia coin will be trade on the major cryptocurrency exchanges and vendors.   Will Chia be on Bitrex, Poloniex, the various different silk road sites etc?
892[bramcohen 101d] The simplest and most transparent mechanic is that there will be Chia earmarked for sale to fund later development. As the value of Chia goes up, those become worth more and there's more money for development. Formulas which appear to take a tax on later mining rewards, even though they're technically indistinguishable from a premine becoming unlocked, tend to be very bad from a marketing standpoint
893[bramcohen 101d] @username401 The plan is to be as liquid as possible, ideally tradeable on real financial exchanges
894[cyptogeek 100d] @bramcohen I'm not proposing you do this as this is your baby and at the end of the day what you think is first, but if you opened it up to a survey of how to fund this awsome venture it might be great for marketing standpoint
895[cyptogeek 100d] A democratic coin from the start would justify any proposal. Questions of "why did you do...xyz....." could prompt your response "because the community said so".
896[cyptogeek 100d] It would work really well for marketing pre launch. "Vote for where this coin is going" would make everyone involved in voting feel that they had some influence, therfore ownership and thus would engage a loyal community
897[cyptogeek 100d] Vote for
898[cyptogeek 100d] With a larger % farming at the start and slowly reduced to fund future development
899[cyptogeek 100d] I vote for option 2
900[cyptogeek 100d] With a larger %!f(MISSING)arming at the start and slowly reduced to fund future development
901[timi 100d] Hi guys, a couple of questions here:
9021) is Chia going to be open source?
9032) I can't seem to find and FAQs or anything. Are there any?
9043) is there any way to help with the development besides being hired (referring to the open source question)?
905[euwa 100d] Great momentum and vision @bramcohen. Just curious, how would you pronounce 'Chia'? More so, how much Chia would you imagine would be in circulation (curious how scarcity or 'famine' would affect price)?
906[bramcohen 100d] @cyptogeek Democracy is three wolves and a sheep voting over what's for dinner
907[bramcohen 100d] @timi Yes it will be open source once launched. No FAQ yet. At the moment not much way to contribute code except by getting hired, but that will change in the future
908[bramcohen 100d] @euwa It's pronounced the same as the grain. Formulas for allocation will be announced in the future. I have no control over how much of it people buy and sit on.
909[drillith 100d] so excited to see another HDD farming coin, i currently mine Burst and the community there can get toxic at times. Any roadmap on the release of wallet, source code, mining software, plotters (if that is what they will be called with chia). Love to see another green coin taking on the electric hogs of PoW
910[username401 100d] @drillith I couldn't agree more.  Burst is so toxic that they even have organize ddos attacks on online wallets, and the network as a whole.  It litterally takes days to download it's relatively tiny blockchain.   I hope the ChiaCoin crew can solve all the problems burst coin has.
911[bramcohen 100d] It will be some time before we get up and running due to the technical complexity of what we want to build. Everybody says that the Burstcoin community is horribly toxic, and I want to do much better. A big part of that is likely that the serious developers know that its core algorithm is busted and don't want to spend time on it
912[drillith 100d] it can be toxic, there are definatley good pockets in there. as i am a tech idiot, what is wrong with the algorithm, in easy terms if that is possible?
913[frogger 100d] In case bram doesn't come back for the day. I'll TRY to explain one aspect of what chia will fix from my LIMITED understanding. There's something called a remine-from-genesis attack, in which basically a bad actor can create an entirely new blockchain that seems legit to the network with very little work because all it takes is remining the entire blockchain from the first block. This is simple enough to do because all you need is a large amount of storage space, something an invested miner has access to, and can be done rather quickly do to the nature of proof of space. The pro
914ofs of time in chia would also require this bad actor to use a very high amount of processing power and time to complete the proofs of time in between each proof of space block, which should negate the effectiveness of that kind of attack.
915[bramcohen 99d] That's one of several problems in Burstcoin. It also has grinding attacks and a busted proof of space algorithm
916[medziar87 99d] :D I just want to beable to start this already lol
917[medziar87 99d] Then invest some $ in the coins
918[earlofgrey 99d] Aside from the tech and the fact that nothing much exists yet I would love to know the marketing plan and how you are going to position it in the market. Bitcoin came first but in theory If you get the minds and hearts of the right people then you could take over from bitcoin as the default crypto.
919[username401 99d] The electricity used to mine bitcoin this year is bigger than the annual usage of 159 countries   -http://www.businessinsider.com/bitcoin-mining-electricity-usage-2017-11  Front page of Reddit today.
920[nisenbaum 99d] I am attending Patreon Q&A with Andreas Antonopoulos and that's a topic for discussion. Trends in energy are  concerning. That's why compelling new proof algo that secures blockchain without energy burden is exciting.
921[gmtaylor 99d] I saw this news presence in japanese news. This in deed is exciting. http://jp.techcrunch.com/2017/11/10/2017-11-08-chia-network-cryptocurrency/
922[bramcohen 99d] One thing we could use help with is in tweaking our logo. We aren't terribly happy with the 'a'
923[ndragun 99d] Nice response time on the join requests.  Do you have more details on the areas you're looking to fill for the project team or is it pretty much just what you've put up on the site right now under "Jobs"?
924[bramcohen 99d] That's pretty much it. We're just starting with the core team of people
925[satoshihaze 99d] Hi there, consider avoid "money" on your opening phrase. Just a friendly advice.
926[bramcohen 99d] We've looked into it and it appears that the word 'money' has surprisingly little legal meaning. 'Legal tender' is a term we aren't touching with a 10 meter pole
927[nisenbaum 99d] anyone interested in bay area chia meetup?
928[bramcohen 99d] I think a few people are. We should probably do one right before or right after the holidays. The obvious place to organize one is at DG717 but I'm open to suggestions
929[earlofgrey 99d] I see what you mean about the a on the logo @bramcohen but tweaking logos is in my opinion a fruitless effort in the very early days
930[ndragun 99d] chio
931[bramcohen 99d] People have asked if they can help. That would be a way they can help. We hand-tweaked the 'a' to be that style of a because it went better with the logo but the descender should actual be a vertical line for that style and tweaking fonts is not a simple skill
932[nisenbaum 99d] Just finished Patreon Q&A with Andreas Antonopoulos. He tried to answer my PoW energy consumption question, but decided to punt it to next monthly event. It's obvious to me that energy used to secure PoW chains is becoming topic of significant concern. He used to be dismissive of that question, but with improvements in silicon reaching a plateu, it seems the way to get more hashes will be to throw more KWh at mining, and that's problematic. So - go Chia!
933[msavin 99d] Logo is everything :) it can win you some attention
934[giuseppeb 99d] Send me the vector file and I can help clean up the shapes in the logo for you.
935[harangutang 99d] @bramcohen happy to help you with your logo Bram. Graphic Designer with 10+ years of experience. You can pay me in Chia :)))
936[bramcohen 99d] This is strictly volunteer at this point, I'll see about getting you the raw file
937[bramcohen 99d] Okay, sent via email
938[bramcohen 98d] @giuseppeb I can mail the file to you as well if you message me your email address
939[giuseppeb 98d] Done :+1:
940[euwa 98d] @giuseppeb @harangutang I'm interested in seeing what they look like after you tweak! :) I'll send a message to you both directly
941[bramcohen 97d] Is @cyptogeek on?
942[thechef 97d] @bramcohen what language will the miners be written in? Cpp?
943[bramcohen 97d] Yeah plan is cpp. Although there will likely be a prototype in Python first because we seem to like doing that
944[thechef 97d] Cpp would make sense for wallet integrated miner, I'm just wondering about things like big servers running obscure OS's and dep issues, and that usually these things are sorted by VM, so I was starting to think about a very lightweight OS specific to mining, even tho this is probably to far down the track, have you guys had any thought about snaps?
945[nisenbaum 97d] Naval Ravikant mentioned Chia on the Unchained podcast.
946[thechef 97d] @bramcohen ChiaCoin.snap accessed over a web interface would be cool
947[bramcohen 97d] @thechef I don't know what you mean by that
948[thechef 97d] @bramcohen So the program is self contained in a snap (see snapcraft.io), and the interface is web based so i could install chai on my server with ease be whatever distro i use and access my wallet/miner on my phone or desktop within my local network
949[bramcohen 97d] @thechef Cool, we'll have to consider that for our linux distro strategy
950[thechef 97d] if anyone else has any ideas PM me
951[nisenbaum 97d] @bramcohen You mentioned BLS signatures will be used in Chia. Can you give more detail?
952[psutter 97d] maybe have a linux/macos/windoze patch to use all free space for chia, so there is essentially no cost for everyone to run it (user would be constantly overwriting it and regenerating by creating/deleting files, but at least they'd achieve max chia)
953[nisenbaum 97d] @cyptogeek I agree with your thoughts on what kind of funding mechanism is more palatable for acceptance and to engender strong community.
954[nisenbaum 97d] @psutter with enough acceptance, it would become one of those "installed by default" apps. like chrome.  i could see dell or microsoft rolling it in to retail boxes, running it in background, locking down the payout address to themselves, in exchange for two free month of MS Office, or some such triviality.
955[psutter 97d] certainly the box/laptop manufacturers would ship it (much more benign than what they include today)
956[curiousg 97d] If helpful, I'm happy to make the connections into Microsoft. I know their Blockchain leadership well.
957[cyptogeek 97d] Hi @bramcohen. I've completed the draft FAQ. I'll send it over to you via email now. I'll check it over tonight before submitting live
958[kitano 97d] @bramcohen will Chia Network has some kind of smart contract capability?
959[cyptogeek 97d] @kitano Yes. After the initial release focus will be on supporting lightning as it is today, adding in off-chain channels, supporting MAST and probably simplicity and covenants to support vaults. Chia is going to support atomic swaps out of the gate. We're starting with Bitcoin script using BLS signatures instead of DSA. The plan is to roll releases out in conjunction with Bitcoin rollouts because it's based on the same codebase
960[kitano 97d] I want to implement some of decentralized algorithms such as prediction markets using Chia instead of ETH
961remine 2)Premine + Farming % . I could understand why this would be considered unpalatable by Ryan and Bram as it is not as easy to deliver especially as the work load is so high already. But this would reduce the funding contraversy and benefit marketing
962[cyptogeek 97d] @nisenbaum Thanks. I think Bram misinterpreted what I meant. I didn't mean a democratic system as we know it. I meant a proper system where the community engage with and help decide Chia's future. I think people  have seen how a Bitcoin system works where a few large parties try to push the coin in the wrong direction. Tackling this in a way that gives users some say would put people's mind at ease. Plus as funding is such a contentious issue, it would put to bed any funding contraversy as the founders didn't decide the members did. Even if it was just two options, such as 1) P
963remine 2)Premine + Farming %! (MISSING)I could understand why this would be considered unpalatable by Ryan and Bram as it is not as easy to deliver especially as the work load is so high already. But this would reduce the funding contraversy and benefit marketing
964[smga3000 97d] @bramcohen have you considered Golang support? As an aside, I wrote a piece for Bitcoin Magazine yesterday on Chia, it hasn't run yet, but I'll drop a link when it does
965[nisenbaum 97d] The comments on that article might be illuminating.
966[the_dusky 97d] @bramcohen you mentioned tweaking the logo, I am a graphic designer and would love to help with the project
967[smga3000 97d] @bramcohen @ryan_singer I just published this. https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/greener-cryptocurrency-bittorrent-inventor-bram-cohen/
968[ryan_singer 97d] 👍
969[nisenbaum 97d] Good article, Shawn.
970[smga3000 97d] thank you. I was hoping to do an interview, so it was a little tricky just digging through various documents :)
971[curiousg 97d] Very nice article.
972[smga3000 97d] thanks
973[cyptogeek 97d] @bramcohen @ryanaostendorf What do you think of creating some infographics for the webpage that simplifies the workings of Chia? Some contributers that could help with this the_dusky @giuseppeb .  https://filecoin.io/ did a good job of marketing their coin, and although the Chia infrastructure is completely different (better) Chia could market it's unique selling points; Illustrations help portray the tech for those simple investors that have two minutes to check out crypto opportunities. Pictures reduce bounce rate and engage more. This all equals more investment and a quicker
974 launch date
975[satoshihaze 97d] About acceptance, wallet should run farming on background. Non static ip need so they could reset their system or come back with easy after a connection loss. I am not sure if that s possible but we all now that the average user unfortunately will never make any effort to help the blockchain
976[satoshihaze 97d] ease*
977[giuseppeb 97d] @cyptogeek Yes, infographics are a nice way to get across ideas quickly, and also good for visually minded ppl. Good idea.
978[nisenbaum 97d] @cyptogeek good ideas. There might not be enough design decisions made yet about the proofs and various other protocol, consensus, etc to make marketing collateral which accurately reflects what Chia will become. It's like tryin to draw a portrait from fetus ultrasound.
979[nisenbaum 97d] Work in progress.
980[mxess 96d] I love thid idea
981[bramcohen 96d] We should probably put our whole web site on github and let people start issuing pull requests
982[bramcohen 96d] As far as illustrations go, there's one in the slides for my stanford talk but the reasons behind that one are convoluted subtle and hard to explain. The thing which most needs illustration is the whole setup for hooking together proofs of space and time and that paper isn't written yet
983[moeadham 96d] Any word on what specifically you are going to be implementing for proof-of-time? This is a pretty challenging subject; we have yet to see any real implentation at scale.
984[moeadham 96d] (aside from hashing that is)
985[nisenbaum 96d] I recall Bram mentioned there will need to be a zcash-like ceremony. I think it was related to PoT.
986[cyptogeek 96d] @bramcohen @giuseppeb @the_dusky I was thinking more of infographics for the very simple aspects like farming, seeding, the minimal energy and  bandwidth required etc see https://chia.network/faq/ for the basic principles. The complexity of POT in regards to how it works can be added when more detail emerges. I think a github pull request system would be great for this.
987[jrsdunn 96d] Well folks I'm happy to see a PoC concept alive and well. @bramcohen are you guys looking for anyone else other than local / remote devs, local admins? Wondering specifically if you need someone to manage projects or the product, or social channels (like here).
988[cyptogeek 96d] @jrsdunn what do you mean by manage product / project? I think Bram and Ryan have this part sorted. Is there anything else you could contribute code wise. If so please apply to the jobs section of the website
989[cyptogeek 96d] @bramcohen @ryan_singer What about a news section for the website @jrsdunn  ? Anews page that includes news articles, social media snip bits, Youtube vids etc.
990[jrsdunn 96d] @cryptogeek that's a great idea! I'm more of a hobbyist dev and am not exactly the cream of the crop, haha.
991[nisenbaum 95d] Anyone from Chia team speaking at conferences in next 6 month?
992[cyptogeek 95d] @ryan_singer Would it be possible to sort out a Github news page for @jrsdunn to contribute to?
993[jrsdunn 95d] That'd be excellent, I'd be happy to!
994[jrsdunn 95d] it'd be great to do the whole shabang - including interviews with execs, new hires after their first week, regular updates and etc
995[ryan_singer 95d] Hey guys; @richardkiss and I are working on getting all of our public web stuff into public github repos so we can take pull requests
996[cyptogeek 95d] @ryan_singer Awsome :-)
997[ryen22 94d] Is there any difference between using HDD and SSD for premining ? if there is ,how big is it?
998[cyptogeek 94d] @ryen22 There is no benefit to using ssd over HDD for farming. It's based on how many seeds can be farmed. see FAQ https://chia.network/faq/
999[nisenbaum 94d] @ryen22 Hello. If by pre-mining you mean seeding the storage space, the advantage should be negligible. As such, there is no talk of a pre-mine in Chia blockchain, that I heard of.
1000[ryen22 94d] @cyptogeek  @nisenbaum  Thank you for your advice.
1001[cyptogeek 94d] @nisenbaum Other than the pre-farming (pre-mining) for initial funding of chia. But that is different from seeding. Hope that helps @ryen22
1002[cr0n_dist0rti0n 94d] Super excited about this currency and it’s environmental structure. More of a hobbyist programmer and a pretty busy person so can’t help much that way. However I would love to set up a dedicated PoT and PoS  servers to help out with testing and development. I’m skilled with Linux  and FreeBSD (Ubuntu and FreeNAS primarily) and their terminal/shell structures. With programming it’s primarily Python and bash scripting but I have a rudimentary understanding of C/Java/C#/PHP. I’d probably be most useful as an “end user” tester. Anyway, I’m happy to help in anyway that I can a
1003nd very excited about the currency. Great work and awesome concept!
1004[jtoy 94d] will there be a programming language on top of chia like ethereum ?
1005[cyptogeek 94d] @jtoy Going to be going with minimally modified Bitcoin script for starters (switch to BLS signatures) and longer term probably going with Simplicity. We're building on the Bitcoin codebase, so C/C++ @cr0n_distorti0n @bramcohen mentioned that testing beta was essential,  so yes, your skills will be needed. Please subscribe to the announcements where testing phase will be announced and your involvement would be appreciated.  Thanks
1006[jtoy 94d] great to hear!
1007[jtoy 94d] is there currently a target release timeframe for an alpha?   if storage is the main requirement, i wonder how CPU performance will effect computation
1008[jtoy 94d] like would it make any sense to have raspberry pis connected to terabytes of usb storage?  my guess is probably not
1009[cyptogeek 94d] @jtoy late 2018
1010[cyptogeek 94d] @jtoy The likely outcome is that it rapidly becomes unprofitable to buy hard drives just for the purposes of farming, so you'll always be able to get rewards off your unused storage. They'll likely be small, but it isn't costing you anything extra if you already have the storage for some other reason. People have already paid for a lot of not used storage capacity, there's ridiculous excess resources available, so it will be unprofitable to buy storage just for the sake of farming. This is directly related to storage being useful for other things, although it isn't 'useful' min
1011ing in the sense that the calculation itself isn't productive, but it is leveraging a useful resource
1012[jtoy 94d] so in this situation, would it even make sense to have farmers? or are nodes more like people who "want to keep the system alive"  ? pleaseforgive some of the silly questions, still wrapping my head around everything
1013[cyptogeek 94d] So yes to linking raspberry pi to drives. No if you're buying the hardware to just farm Chia
1014[cr0n_dist0rti0n 94d] Thanks @cryptogeek. I’ll keep my eye on the announcements. Cheers.
1015[gmtaylor 94d] @ryan_singer what operating system will the first wallet/farmer be released for linux/windows/mac?
1016[ryan_singer 94d] @gmtaylor : unclear as to release order, but those are the three platforms we're targeting.
1017[cyptogeek 94d] @jtoy nodes will require more bandwidth. You can farm without much bandwidth. As the software has not been built yet, I don't know if Chia farming software would give you the choice of being both farmer and node or whether @bramcohen intends to make them seperate entities. We will have to see. The link between POS and POT has not been established yet so with regards to how the farming and nodes will run regarding software is a later stage development. Would you say my theory is correct @ryan_singer ?
1018[jtoy 94d] wil the coins be traded in a similar manner to bitcoin/ethereum on exchanges?
1019[psutter 94d] @cryptogeek thanks for the faq link, it's a great document. the response under "how large will a hard drive need to be", could merit it's own question. Likewise the answer to "Will Chia have a similar supply as bitcoin", could be expanded, especially to explain the ratioanle
1020[cyptogeek 94d] @jtoy There's no reason why not. As the coin is not available yet, it's a wait and see situation. When Chia is available on the market, exchanges are free to support it if they wish. No coin has been developed yet so many questions are theoretical until Chia has more developers and implements POST .
1021[ryan_singer 94d] @cyptogeek : we're working on the farming algorithm. The original intention is that every farmer also run a full node and vice versa.
1022[cyptogeek 94d] Thanks @psutter . The FAQ is a work in progress and ideas are welcome. If there is a FAQ that needs additional clarification please carry on giving feedback. @bramcohen I agree that the supply section could do with some elaboration. Could you please set out how Chia supply will maintain it's value and prevent a deflationary path based on the fact that with Chia, there is no fixed cap. The reason why bitcoin/gold/oil/money has value is because there is a limited supply. If there is a limitless supply of Chia,  what enforces value?
1023[psutter 93d] @cryptogeek also, typo stoage "Q: How is Chia any different from other stoage coins such as Burst?"
1024[psutter 93d] @cryptogeek @bramcohen ok other comments on the faq
1025- "how is chia resistant to miner centralization?" (what prevents a multi-exabyte botnet, etc)
1026- "what stops an attacker from regenerating seeds at lookup time?"
1027- the answer to "what is proof of space" is difficult to understand (the faq seems to use the term space and storage interhangeably except in this answer)
1028- use of farming vs mining not consistent (perhaps "A cryptocurrency that is farmed with hard drives not mined with processing power")
1029- seeding answer suggests that seeding can only be done at drive formatting ("seeding is a process that requires reading and writing every sector more than once")
1030- noob question "does chia require storage to hold coin or only while farming coin?"
1031[psutter 93d] i've been asked the last question, so maybe it isnt silly
1032[richardkiss 93d] FAQ fixes can be pull requests on https://github.com/Chia-Network/faq/
1033[richardkiss 93d] I've fixed "stoage" => "storage"
1034[gmtaylor 93d] @ryan_singer  for investors buing in the pre sale will there be a web wallet?
1035[cyptogeek 93d] @psutter Thanks for the suggested alterations to faq. Some are beyond my understanding, so I've referenced @bramcohen
1036[cyptogeek 93d] @cryptogeek @bramcohen ok other comments on the faq
1037Q - "how is chia resistant to miner centralization?" (what prevents a multi-exabyte botnet, etc)
1038A- Chia Network uses vacant disk space on hard drives to farm seeds. As there is so much hdd space available and anyone with hdd space will be able to farm, this makes farming decentralized. A Bitcoin Asic centralized mining system makes the formation of blocks a centralized process because ASIC mining and electricity costs are beyond most people's affordability. Chia uses hdd that entities could optimize to farm faster, but the cost of doing so is not worth the reward. Thus Chia will be the most decentralized cryptocurrency on the market.
1039Q- "what stops an attacker from regenerating seeds at lookup time?"
1040A - @bramcohen can answer this one and I'll add to faq
1041Q- the answer to "what is proof of space" is difficult to understand (the faq seems to use the term space and storage interhangeably except in this answer)
1042A - Can you please elaborate on what's confusing and @bramcohen can answer this one and I'll add to faq
1043Q - use of farming vs mining not consistent (perhaps "A cryptocurrency that is farmed with hard drives not mined with processing power")
1044A - Many people looking to invest in cryptocurrency have established recognition of the term mining, the inconsistency of mining and farming is to allow the public to apply their existing knowledge to that of the new term farming. The cross referencing of both terms is to improve understanding of Chia. If there is a confusing section where the inconsistency arises please elaborate and @bramcohen can confirm the correction.
1045Q - seeding answer suggests that seeding can only be done at drive formatting ("seeding is a process that requires reading and writing every sector more than once")
1046A - It says somewhere in the faq that you can use your hdd storage and as long as the proofs are not overwritten you can carry on farming. I think this answers your question,  but @bramcohen may want to elaborate for the faq if he feels necessary.
1047Q - noob question "does chia require storage to hold coin or only while farming coin?"
1048A - Extract from faq:
1049- Q: What is "proof of space?"
1050A: 'Proof of space' is not actually storage. Storage is of something directly useful and requires lots of bandwidth. Proofs of space are of data which is useless for anything but generating proofs of space and making it requires essentially no bandwidth. Proof of actual storage requires ridiculous amounts of bandwidth so will not be used in Chia
1051[cyptogeek 93d] @psutter If you have an improvement in mind after @bramcohen answers your questions please fee free to update the faq
1052[cyptogeek 93d] FAQ fixes can be pull requests on https://github.com/Chia-Network/faq/
1053[username401 93d] So what exactly is being "sold" in the presale?  Has it been determined exactly how the startup money will be raised?
1054[cyptogeek 93d] @username401 All I know is there will be a pre mine and sale will take place something like Q2 2018
1055[bramcohen 92d] Probably the vernacular should be that 'mining' refers to all PoW and 'farming' is a more specific term referring just to PoST. Otherwise the discussion is too confusing
1056[bramcohen 92d] @username401 details TBD. Working over it with lawyers
1057[cyptogeek 92d] Thanks @psutter I've addedyou question onto FAQ "Q - "How is chia resistant to miner centralization?""
1058[cyptogeek 92d] @bramcohen I've now replaced the word mining with farming. Thanks
1059[cyptogeek 92d] @bramcohen The member @psutter had a good question regarding Chia supply. Could you please elaborate on this and I'll add it to the FAQ. Thanks
1060[cyptogeek 92d] Q: Will Chia have a similar supply to that of Bitcoin?
1061A: There will be farming rewards but they won't have halving so the amount in circulation increases without bound but the proportion of coins (grains?) minted (grown?) each year goes down as a fraction of the total so far
1062[cyptogeek 92d] Could you please set out how Chia supply will maintain it's value and prevent a deflationary path based on the fact that with Chia, there is no fixed cap. The reason why bitcoin/gold/oil/money has value is because there is a limited supply. If there is a limitless supply of Chia,  what allows it to be a currency and have value?
1063[psutter 92d] by the way, i meant my bullets as a conversation about the faq, not necessarrily items to add, and thanks for the replies.
1064on the topic of the cap, i dont have any opinions or concerns, just suggesting to expand on the section since that can be an area of interest or misunderstanding. maybe more clarity on the  mechanism with examples, and the rationale
1065[cyptogeek 92d] @psutter agreed. Any suggestions for the FAQ are good. The FAQ is made up of discussions sourced from this forum. Yours were good discussion points. Thanks
1066[username401 91d] While I haven't got as far as liquid nitrogen cooling my CPU.  I am into overclocking PC's.  I currently have a "mostly" stable 5ghz capable PC.  (Huge heat sink)  would I be useful in helping test proof of time?
1067[cyptogeek 91d] @username401 I think mass storage is a higher priority for testing. What do you think @bramcohen
1068[ndragun 91d] @cryptogeek Speaking of which, I've got about 400+TB of Tier 1 and Tier 2 SAN storage collecting dust.
1069[ndragun 91d] ^ @cyptogeek tricky spelling there man. lol
1070[vvh42 91d] CS PhD, teaching students mainly in Java, but have used many OO and some functional programming languages over the years. Have some free time after my rigorosium at the end of this month, so if there's anything to be done in Q1 2018, drop me a message.
1071[cyptogeek 90d] @vvh42 please sign up for jobs (see homepage) where you'll be added to the developers list. Every little helps. Thanks
1072[cyptogeek 90d] @ndragun Please subscribe to announcements and check back here in 2018 where those that can test Chia will be able to do so. Thanks
1073[nieuwlaar 90d] Hello all, recently I saw there was some discontent on the Chia logo. I own a company in graphic design, if any graphic design is required I would gladly help.
1074[cyptogeek 90d] Thanks nieuwlaar @richardkiss is working on creating a bundle of github webpages for the community to add to. Your services would be greatly appreciated. It's the "a" in Chia that does not sit well with @bramcohen. Please message @ryan_singer who will be able to get your details. They'll be lots to do on the Github pages graphicly. Thanks
1075[bramcohen 90d] We're happy with one of the updated logo designs but haven't updated the home page yet
1076[bramcohen 90d] The inflation rate from farming will be small and asymptotically approaching zero. Compared to the sort of exponential growth Bitcoin has experienced it would be a rounding error
1077[cyptogeek 90d] @bramcohen I understand you won't be halving to control supply, rather using a unique algorithm used in farming to make the difficulty moderate supply and reward. And it is clear that inflation will be minimised. But limited supply gives a resource value,  I'm trying to understand how you will limit supply?
1078[bramcohen 90d] Supply will be limited to what's premined and the scheduled farming rewards. It's still limited. Farmers can't just print more than is scheduled to have been made by the current time
1079[cyptogeek 90d] @bramcohen You will be planning on setting the difficulty based on blocks farmed up to to a specific point in time. Have you decided how much Chia you want at specific periods in time. Will we see a similar number of Chia to that of Bitcoin in the same sort of timeframe since genesis, so reward is regulated to keep to a specific number of blocks to reach a specific total goal or are you going to set the difficulty so that it is dependant on number of farmers etc?
1080[bramcohen 90d] It uses the same techniques as in Bitcoin, where technically the amount mined can be more than scheduled because of rate increases but the differences aren't all that much, but for the most part it's on a fixed schedule. We're using a slightly different schedule but basically all of the concepts carry over
1081[cyptogeek 90d] Thanks @bramcohen. That sounds great :+1:
1082[bramcohen 90d] We have totally normal proof of work difficulty adjustments. Getting that to work was one of the more important and subtle parts of laying the theoretical framework but it's also hard to explain to people why it's subtle and important
1083[gmtaylor 90d] @bramcohen I drive a green mazda 2 and live in Edmonton Alberta Canada. I am offering my car as a canvas to advertise for the chia network. Interested?
1084[bramcohen 89d] @gmtaylor We aren't looking for that kind of publicity right now, but if in the future you'd like to paint your car with the Chia logo I'll happily get you some press for it. Not right now though. We have to build it first. At the moment my main goal with press is to help with recruiting
1085[gmtaylor 89d] @bramcohen I am up for that down the road then
1086[ronnied 89d] @bramcohen I am a UX Researcher happy to test a variety of explanations for how to describe proof of work difficulty adjustments to a segmented audience (technical, technical new to crypto, non-technical new to crypto, still not in crypto, etc.) | I sent an offer to help to jobs@ on nov 29 - please reach out if you're interested. Getting the content right (product, marketing, etc.) to maximize adoption is something I'm more than happy to support with. My email begins with ron -  thanks!
1087[bramcohen 89d] @ronnied I'm a bit behind on the jobs alias at the moment. Having articles like that would be good in the future, but the really accessible parts of it haven't been published yet. If you can figure out how to write a reasonably understandable lay intro to the beyond hellman paper I'll be impressed. I'm just hoping for a writeup of the simpler busted version with a comment along the lines of 'this is actually busted for some very technical and interesting reasons but that can be fixed with some very technical and interesting tricks'
1088[ronnied 89d] thanks @bramcohen | I'll take a look this weekend and see what I can draft up without running through user research that could provide some utility moving forward. If/when the team gets to a place of testing content to segmented audiences I'm ready to jump in for support there as well!
1089[jasonh 89d] This project looks exciting and can't wait to get started in whatever means I can.  I still can't wrap my head around how one can make mining negligible for people who buy extra hdd for purposes of farming.. @cyptogeek @ryan_singer @bramcohen Is the mining reward going to increase as time goes by to tamper appreciation as more people adopt the currency.
1090[cyptogeek 89d] @jasonh Please check out the FAQ https://chia.network/faq/ where many of the farming details are provided. Chia uses a similar codebase as Bitcoin, so as increased farming occurs, so does the difficulty increase. The technicalities of how this happens needs someone more familiar with POT and POS to explain, but the basic fundamentals are that farming is regulated by Chia algorithm increasing the difficulty to prevent too much of Chia being produced too quick. I hope this helps
1091[hodlmyballs 89d] Ok, quick question. I noticed the maidsafe team is trying to start a decentralized internet and they have this farming proof of space concept. How is this any different? Because it is a currency and not a token? Just curious
1092[ndragun 89d] @hodlmyballs uh, isn't the internet decentralized already? : /
1093[hodlmyballs 89d] yeah but they want to kill the server
1094[hodlmyballs 89d] and put forth a mesh network of desktops and smartphones in lieu of it
1095[hodlmyballs 89d] Think freenet except it won't suck and be used solely for child porn
1096[hodlmyballs 89d] maidsafe.net check it out
1097[cyptogeek 89d] @hodlmyballs I don't get what the business is. Maidsafe are storing internet on the blockchain.  Why use a blockchain to store peoples messages and internet content. If it doesn't need a blockchain solution don't use it. I personally cannot see a reason for maidsafe.
1098[hodlmyballs 88d] Maidsafe doesn't use block chains
1099[hodlmyballs 88d] Close group consensus comprises utilising a small group, a fraction of the network size, to state a position for the whole network. This removes the need for the network to communicate with all nodes. Within the SAFE Network the close group size is 32 with a quorum of 28 required to enable a specific action to be taken.
1100[hodlmyballs 88d] A blockchain is different. An immutable, append only, public ledger that maintains a database of all the transactions that have ever taken place. While the benefits this ledger provides are advantageous for many different types of operation, it also comes with its own set of challenges.
1101One of the most commonly cited issues is the problem of scalability. Specifically, that in order for the network to reach consensus, this increasingly large and centralising file must be distributed between all nodes.
1102[hodlmyballs 88d] Maidsafe was never meant to be a cryptocurrency and it has been in development long before bitcoin
1103[hodlmyballs 88d] https://safenetforum.org/t/introduction-to-maidsafe-what-it-is-how-it-works-and-how-it-compares-to-bitcoin/2500
1104[hodlmyballs 88d] So I suppose maid's goal is to become a platform while chia is a currency
1105[hodlmyballs 88d] Two different things. I like to read
1106[hodlmyballs 88d] I"m definitely interested in an ICO for CHIA though
1107[rickstefanowski 88d] @hodlmyballs thanks for the summary on maidsafe. I have known about the project for a long time, and its something I have been meaning to research. Your notes come in handy.
1108[hodlmyballs 88d] They're in alpha now
1109[hodlmyballs 88d] Alot of features available for testing. browser is up and the messaging app. Test vaults will be up soon
1110[hodlmyballs 88d] you're welcome
1111[hodlmyballs 88d] But yeah I'm looking for the next promising project to park at least 30 or 40 grand in. Chia seems good. .It's only close competitor is really burst coin, maybe storj and sia. Burst is the cloest but the coin has been dying for several years
1112[hodlmyballs 88d] Before the ICO craze burst had tokenized assets that were rife with scammers, essentially all the bad press killed the coin. They're been trying to rebrand after the mess but not sure it will take.
1113[hodlmyballs 88d] Anyway if Chia can also solve the scalability issue, we're good. The bitcoin civil war is ridiculous and transaction fees and times are too long.
1114[hodlmyballs 88d] also check the third post from the top @rickstefanowski
1115[hodlmyballs 88d] https://safenetforum.org/t/data-chains-and-safecoin-anonymity/13930/3 @rickstefanowski
1116[cyptogeek 88d] @hodlmyballs  (from FAQ) burstcoin doesn't have the proof of time component, there are some attacks that make it unsuitable as a mining algorithm.
1117[cryptonoob 88d] @bramcohen good morning from continental Europe :) I assume that if you say you are recruiting, you mean people that work on-site at your offices?
1118[bramcohen 88d] @cryptonoob Some of the people we're hiring are remote. Planning of having people come to SF from time to time but having some steady office hours people are expected to be online
1119[cryptonoob 88d] @bramcohen nice, thanks a lot for your reply. I'll keep an eye on this whole project, maybe I can help a bit some day :)
1120[cryptonoob 88d] @cyptogeek I've done some fine tuning to the current FAQ and created a pull request
1121[cyptogeek 88d] Thanks @cryptonoob . I was going to add the bit that Bram was explaining earlier in this chat about the difficulty being similar to Bitcoin's difficulty algorithm, but not being a coder I find this part the most difficult to explain in layman's language. If you could do this justice it would be amazing as I know that topic will come up frequently and it could do with a professional touch. Thanks
1122[cryptonoob 88d] @cyptogeek I'll have to do some day job duties the next couple of hours, but I'll take a look at what was discussed regarding that matter and I'll let you know if I feel capable of adding a suitable sentence to the FAQ :)
1123[cyptogeek 88d] Thanks @cryptonoob
1124[ndragun 88d] Morning all
1125[mvulcan 88d] Morning
1126[cryptonoob 88d] Good afternoon :)
1127[cyptogeek 88d] Afternoon :-)
1128[hodlmyballs 88d] Sweet excited about this project @bramcohen
1129[cryptonoob 88d] oh my god, have we reached the meme phase? That escalated quickly :D
1130[ndragun 88d] @cryptonoob ikr?
1131[cryptonoob 88d] @ndragun excuse me?
1132[ndragun 88d] ikr? = ?I know, right?"
1133[cryptonoob 88d] oh. Well. :D
1134[m00nf1sh 88d] :rolling_on_the_floor_laughing:
1135[nisenbaum 88d] biggest group on keybase
1136[ryan_singer 88d] :+1:
1137[zapu 88d] :+1:
1138[hodlmyballs 88d] So crowd sale will be Q2 2018
1139?
1140[hodlmyballs 88d] Just guestimating
1141[zapu 88d] I think that's what the website said, yes
1142[hodlmyballs 88d] cool beans
1143[hodlmyballs 88d] plenty of time to get back up to six figs from trading
1144[jakswa 88d] mostly hanging around to watch the eventual wallet piece develop, in case it goes the seemingly popular electron/JS route -- probably my biggest avenue to help, if it's done in the open on github
1145[jakswa 88d] I'll check back in... months
1146[jakswa 88d] /leave
1147[jakswa 88d] /part
1148[jakswa 88d] I'm good at this
1149[rompert 88d] https://news.bitcoin.com/bitcoin-miners-pestering-utility-companies-cheap-hydro-power/
1150[rompert 88d] can we save the world already?
1151[cyptogeek 87d] @rompert Thanks for the article, but even if miners move to the places mentioned,  it is not going to be as decentralized as Chia. I'm not going to move to the nearest waterfall to mine, but I do have plenty of hard drive space. And so do many millions of others. That's why Chia will win the decentralized and energy saving competition.
1152[jaryd 87d] Am a bit confused by seeding... From the FAQ I understand that seeding requires reading/writing every sector of a hard-drive. Does that mean I'll need to start with effectively empty disks? Say I have a 8TB drive and am using 1TB. I'd expect to be able to allocate the remaining 7TB to chia. Is that not the case?
1153[seanstar 87d] My understanding is that in that case you would need to create a new partition for the 7TB and let chia format that.
1154[seanstar 87d] But I could be wrong, maybe it's an all drive or nothing kind of deal?
1155[hodlmyballs 87d] Will I get more of a farmer reward if I use an ssd
1156[hodlmyballs 87d] as opposed to  normal cheapo rotating hardrive
1157[hoffmang 87d] I beleive the point is that seeding will occur in the unallocated area of a volume. As the OS needs to allocate more space for user files, it will just write over some part of the seeded area thus decreasing your likelihood of finding a best proof for a new block by that small amount of space.
1158[rompert 87d] @cyptogreek yes, exactly. that is what i mean. chia will save the world from a silly future where people/companies move to waterfalls or build their own nuclear reactors to mine pow-currencies.
1159[cr0n_dist0rti0n 87d] I love that this is both philosophical and technical conversation. How do both of them meet and create new innovations for humanity?
1160[cr0n_dist0rti0n 87d] Keep it up. Love reading the thread. Cheers.
1161[zapu 87d] is there any good prior reading to understand proof of space? I have troubles understanding white papers behind crypto currencies like chia or burstcoin
1162[cyptogeek 87d] @zapu Start by reading the FAQ https://chia.network/faq/ Then you've got a basic foundation to learning more. It will help you understand the whitepaper.
1163[cyptogeek 87d] @hodlmyballs There is no incentive to use SSD over HDD. But if you've got SSD sitting idle, definately use it.
1164[zapu 87d] thanks
1165[zapu 87d] I got a bit confused because I've read chia slides and they jump straight into discussion about problems/attacks
1166[cyptogeek 87d] @hoffmang You select a drive to seed. You can write over these over time with files as you need tge space and as long as you don't write over the proofs, you can continue farming. If you write over the proofs you will have to seed again.  This does take a long time to re seed so you may want to fill a farmed drive sparingly.
1167[zapu 87d] SpaceMint looks like a good prior read though
1168[cyptogeek 87d] @zapu Thanks I may read more on spacemint as I've heard it mentioned a few times now.
1169[vladmir 87d] what will be the  entry price  for chia?
1170[qball 87d] I develop in C# and SQL Server (which is likely of no help here) but if there’s anything I can do to help, I’m more than willing. Or I could be helpful in testing
1171[hodlmyballs 87d] good question @vladmir but I'm not sure they know the percentage of the premine so they can't really say yet
1172[cyptogeek 87d] @vladmir Go to the homepage and sign up to announcements.  You'll be informed of pricing and release information in 2018. Expected release Q2 2018
1173[cyptogeek 87d] @qball Please sign up to jobs where your skills would be appreciated. Every person counts in this early stage. @bramcohen is extremely busy creating the journals so he may take a while responding to the jobs section. Thanks
1174[bramcohen 87d] @cyptogeek The ability to use proofs of space is extremely fine-grained, so @hoffmang  is right, almost all the space which hasn't gotten overwritten by the real file system will still be effectively used by the farming server
1175[username401 87d] So does Chia have a plan to handle blockchain bloat?  Right now bitcoin and ethereums block chains are somewhere around 200GB, but they only handle a small fraction of transactions that Visa does.  If bitcoin transfers were half as popular as Visa purchases, the bitcoin blockchain would be well over a pytabye.
1176[cyptogeek 87d] @username401 That's where lightning Network comes into play. Where not every transaction has to be written to the block chain
1177[hodlmyballs 86d] Q2 starts in April, Plenty of time to save our pennies :)
1178[frauenfelder 86d] Is there a good high-level explaier article or video about Lightning Network that anyone  can recommend?
1179[bramcohen 86d] @username401 The big scaling plan is Lightning but there will be some other improvements. For example we're going to support aggregated BLS signatures which will make the blockchain about half the size it would otherwise be
1180[bramcohen 86d] @frauenfelder https://lightning.engineering/ is the home page of lightning labs and has some stuff. They also have a keybase group lightninglabs
1181[harafise 86d] So did I get it right, that chia may not rely / work ontop a file system, but instead uses the raw memory of a partition?
1182[cryptonoob 86d] @harafise that's my understanding as well, yes
1183[cyptogeek 86d] Thanks @cryptonoob for adding that "difficulty" content to the FAQ
1184[frauenfelder 86d] Thanks @bramcohen!
1185[bramcohen 86d] @harafise It sort of works 'below' the file system, being read only and sucking it up when the file system goes stomping over things but never interfering with the file system's functioning
1186[harafise 86d] @bramcohen @cryptonoob Thanks for reply. I'm currently thinking about resurecting old storages with minimal hardware efforts.
1187[cryptonoob 86d] @cyptogeek thanks for thanking me, but I didn't add the difficulty stuff to the FAQ (yet) :D
1188[cyptogeek 86d] Must have been someone else
1189[xabrt 86d] If you delete the last old transactions that significantly reduce the amount
1190[hodlmyballs 85d] hardware should be cheaper in Q2 2018
1191[rustymonk 85d] Will Chia have currency-only approach, or position itself as a smart contract platform as well? Just curious..
1192[cyptogeek 85d] @rustymonk Definately smart contracts. It will have a similar roadmap to Bitcoin
1193[harangutang 85d] @bramcohen @ryan_singer Recently in the news there’s been reports of nation-state backed hackers stealing millions of dollars worth of bitcoins. What is your plan to protect Chia holders from this sort of sophisticated attack?
1194[bramcohen 85d] @harangutang We're planning on building sophisticated custody products (for our own use!) and in the future supporting covenants which support vaults, so you can have things like a wallet where tokens can be moved out but there's a grace period where they can be pulled back again but only by a key which is kept in offline cold storage so that if you get hacked you can fix it
1195[bramcohen 85d] @rustymonk We're planning on doing smart transaction support, but it will be focused on scaling and commerce and done with the UTXO approach rather than supporting arbitrary code running on the blockchain, which is inherently janky from a development standpoint and bad for scaling and in my mind the opposite of what you want from a system which is supposed to be decentralized and confidence inspiring
1196[knopik 84d] if tokens are moved out (and by extension moved in somwhere else); doesn't that get imprinted onto the blockchain? If not, then how long does this grace period exist for and what does it mean for timing of transactions?
1197[thechef 84d] @bramcohen could chia offset my power bills for my data servers? Could it be worth buying more HDD (through the biz, they wouldn't even know) just to get better output? Adverage cost of powering a drive vs potential income to offset could work in favour if buying more space is in the companys interest ya know what I mean
1198[hodlmyballs 84d] I think the market needs to determine the market price of Chia first combined with future block rewards and block time in order to determine profitability.
1199[ryan_singer 84d] I agree. The market dynamics will be easier to understand in production.
1200[hodlmyballs 84d] What worries me is if Amazon adopts ripple or makes their own crypto but the market is large enough to support more than a few top crpytos
1201[hodlmyballs 84d] cryptos*
1202[curiousg 84d] Amazon already has Amazon coins. Not sure how successful they are. Amazon accepting crypto is a big challenge for amazon (if you buy anything with crypto it's a taxable event [for the buyer], so it's not an issue for small retailers, eg., overstock, but would become a federal issue for someone at the same scale as amazon - zippy chance feds will allow it without collecting taxes). Anyways... my 2 cents. But this is off topic...
1203[hodlmyballs 84d] good point
1204[knopik 83d] taxable event for anything over $600. small transactions i beleive will not be applicable to taxes
1205[ryan_singer 83d] @knopik That's CoinCenter's proposed IRS rule. Currently there is no diminimus amount, I think
1206[knopik 83d] gotcha
1207[cr0n_dist0rti0n 83d] I would think taxes would be applicable to shipping location and laws relative to that jurisdiction. Also, Amazon has geolocated sites and 3rd parties. Hence you go to amazon.ca in Canada / amazon.co.uk for Britain / amazon.de for Deutschland / etc. I think taxes would be applied relative to currency exchange at the time of purchase. Thus it would be algorithmic in nature to accept crypto and apply taxes. The biggest challenge for crypto is stability and the capacity to easily exchange. If Amazon accepts a crypto in Deutschland but can’t convert it easily to the Euro or U
1208SD then it’s not a viable transactional source. Thus I would say that is the goal. Stability, acceptance and fluidity between currencies if Chia is in this for the long term meaning centuries if not millennia (provided humanity doesn’t f-everything else up).
1209[frogger 83d] Hello all. Haven't posted in a while but I've still been lurking. Liking all the discussion here. I really like the plan to not implement reward halving. Reward halving always seemed unnecessarily disruptive, and it discourages farmers who come late to the game. This method seems more user friendly.
1210[frogger 83d] Someone mentioned that release is planned for Q2 2018. Is this official? Last I remember from one of the presentations was Q4.
1211[harafise 83d] Hello all. Currently I'm figuring out, how to set up old HDDs with minimum effort (money, hardware). After I've set up, I'd like to offer the space for testing Chia early stage. Question: Will there be a network testing community where I could offer my contribution?
1212[rustymonk 83d] Second that, is there going to be a testnet of some sort?
1213[curiousg 83d] +1. Please consider me for testnet as well. Happy to allocate resources.
1214[ryan_singer 83d] Network release will hopefully be late in Q4 2018. We'll definitely recruit QA volunteers from the community before that.
1215[vladmir 83d] @ryan_singer  what is the initial price for chia?
1216[bramcohen 83d] @vladmir Our plan is to do some kind of auction for the initial public sale where the amount raised is fixed and the price is what floats, so we don't know. Details of the public sale are very tentative at this point though
1217[debek 83d] Is it possible in the future that price of Chia will be the same as bitcoin now?
1218[hodlmyballs 83d] ^Not anytime soon unless there is massive adoption immediately, which never happens
1219[hodlmyballs 83d] Take vertcoin, it debuted in 2014, now it's ATH is $10
1220[hodlmyballs 83d] took three years to go from a few pennies to $10, even then it is only a top 50 coin
1221[hodlmyballs 83d] Bitcoin is number 1
1222[hodlmyballs 83d] Chia is definitely a long term hold
1223[hodlmyballs 83d] or will be
1224[hodlmyballs 83d] This year vert started about 25cents though so a meteroic rise from january
1225[username401 83d] So would it be fair to say that Chia coin will be just as anonymous or more anonymous than dashcoin or zcash?   If so, why?  Will anonymity be a major selling point for Chia over Bitcoin or other cryptos?
1226[bramcohen 83d] @username401 Chia won't be particularly anonymous. We aren't doing any monero or zcash style anonymity, and won't be getting Confidential Transactions until after Bitcoin does
1227[debek 83d] Does app for minning will be for Linux OS? Rospery Pi + fiew discs
1228[hodlmyballs 82d] Farming not mining. Not sure what OS they'll be running but I imagine Linux and Windows at some point^ I'm sure Bram will pop in tomorrow
1229[hodlmyballs 82d] This use case is interesting. I can see this being sucessful, definitely need a donation fund after launch to start marketing too
1230[hodlmyballs 82d] But of course the presale will probably collect funds for marketing too
1231[ryan_singer 82d] Marketing budget for the company and to support community initiatives is a goal for the public sale
1232[hodlmyballs 82d] fosho
1233[hodlmyballs 82d] I'm excited, all the ICOs I've seen so far are dodgy, I won't invest.
1234[hodlmyballs 82d] This one looks very nice. A genuine use case, well known name
1235[cr0n_dist0rti0n 82d] @debek from my understanding Linux/OSX/Windows will all eventually be supported. If the idea is to democratize the currency system then broad support is essential; moreover, since Chia works on Proofs of Space it seems logical that one would want to maximize the space potential for seeding. As to whether or not the initial release will support all this OSs I’m not sure. Given who is developing this and the people surrounding it, I’d assume Linux will be part of the initial release no matter what.
1236[7amoodiya 82d] @ryan_singer will the pre-sale be done internationally or limited to certain countries? And possible method of purchasing?
1237[jaryd 82d] Throwing my hat out for FreeBSD support... :) would hate to need to rebuild my file server.
1238[ryan_singer 82d] @7amoodiya ; those details are currently up in the air, but I can tell you that we'd like to be as inclusive as possible, both to participants and payment methods.
1239[micahscopes 82d] hey, i'm curious about the "proof of time"
1240[micahscopes 82d] what kinds of mathematics are used for this?
1241[micahscopes 82d] i have an idea about some discrete dynamical systems that might be useful for proof of time
1242[micahscopes 82d] i was experimenting with making mandelbrot-like fractals out of these ternary quasigroups: http://tamivox.org/dave/math/tern_quasi/index.html
1243[micahscopes 82d] i found some very noisy regions
1244[micahscopes 82d] they look almost like fuzz
1245[7amoodiya 82d] @ryan_singer thanks for the reply. Looking forward to invest from the gulf 😊
1246[micahscopes 82d] this system is very sensitive to initial conditions
1247[micahscopes 82d] (this is a 2d slice of a multidimensional set)
1248[micahscopes 82d] ah, i just found this document which explains some of the possible proofs of time: https://cyber.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/bramcohen.pdf
1249[micahscopes 82d] i'm wondering what the needs and constraints are for proof of time? something that is hard to do but easy to verify?
1250[bramcohen 81d] @micahscopes The requirements of a proof of time are that it require a specified number of sequential steps to calculate, be quick to verify, and be canonical
1251[bramcohen 81d] The one which is yet to be published is based on some of the same math as time lock puzzles
1252[jzila 80d] How would such a scheme stop the same fastest sequential miner from winning every block?
1253[ryan_singer 80d] The dificulty is the product of the proof of space quality and the proof of time dificulty. Someone with a double-fast PoT server would have an advantage over someone with the same amount of space, but only by that factor. They wouldn't be the dominant player on the market unless they had the dominant amount of space, too
1254[jzila 80d] I see, thanks
1255[jzila 80d] Are y'all planning a deflationary supply curve like Bitcoin, or do you want to eventually transition to an inflationary one like Ethereum has talked about?
1256[ryan_singer 80d] Bitcoin's isn't deflationary until the 21m coins are all out there; right now we're in a world where bitcoin has inflation, but not as much as it used to.
1257Our plan is to have inflation be more steady and predictable; a small but stable amount of new chia in every block after the first. This should have a similar effect without front-loading the rewards to early participants
1258[ryan_singer 80d] at least as much :-)
1259[jzila 80d] > Bitcoin's isn't deflationary until the 21m coins are all out there
1260I'd argue that it has been deflationary since the beginning, because supply doesn't compound. This is evidenced by the fact that the price of bread in bitcoin has always gone down (in the long term, transaction fees notwithstanding). Any linear or sublinear supply curve will be deflationary as long as an economy has compounding effects. Additionally, if a cryptoasset really wants to be a currency, then I believe it needs to create an incentive to transact rather than an incentive to hoard. I'm not sure how that's possible without an inflationary supply curve.
1261[jzila 80d] That said, I recognize the role of an initial deflationary curve in incentivizing acquisition of tokens to bootstrap the market.
1262[bramcohen 80d] @jzila The reward structure is stochastic, so if you have twice as much space you get twice as much rewards, but the person who has half the amount of space still gets their rewards
1263[jpeverlong 80d] hi guys! new to the group! i like what i hear so far! is this it? :
1264[jpeverlong 80d] so a miner allocates unused disk space to the network of chia, with the success rate of mining a block equal to the space given by the entire capacity of the network.
1265[jpeverlong 80d] so the bigger the space of the network, and the more space the miner has, the more he can collect?
1266[jzila 80d] Neat, thanks!
1267[wanty00 80d] Farmer not miner, so Farming not mining...
1268[username401 79d] Is it planned that users will need to have a certain number of coins in reserve to run these proof of time nodes in a simalar way dash coin requires 1000 coins to run a master node?
1269[ryan_singer 79d] @username401 , no, there is no proof of stake element. Anyone can start farming by seeding their drive and connecting to the network.
1270[fosterb87 79d] Does anyone have any suggestions for a farming rig build sheets?
1271[bramcohen 79d] @jpeverlong You're half right. If an individual small farmer doubles their allocated space their rewards double, but if the network as a whole doubles its allocated space that farmer's rewards halve
1272[igny 78d] Hi! I'd like to volunteer to test the network when you need volunteers. What will be the requisites, for instance in terms of programming skills?
1273Also, I'm still a bit confused about the expected timings for chia sales. I read about pre-sales at the start of Q2, but also at the end of Q4. Is this correct?
1274[ricoc17 78d] Hi from Seattle.... Chia sounds awesome. Like to be part of the community and education for Chia in this area. Looking forward to volunteer and do some transactions :) Can’t wait to read more about Chia.
1275[beane 78d] I'm interested doing what I can to help with early testing and if early investment would be helpful to the efforts I'd be open to a conversation about that as well.
1276[bramcohen 78d] @igny There will be a variety of ways to contribute with a range of programming skills needed. Some things as simple as just running a server on testnet. We're *hoping* to launch the network by end of 2018 and will of course have a testnet up before the real network
1277[micahscopes 78d] @bramcohen i'm gonna check out time lock puzzles.  what is "canonical"?  as in rigorously understood and proven?
1278[bramcohen 78d] @micahscopes 'canonical' in this case means that there's exactly one sequence of bytes which passes the verification algorithm for a given challenge
1279[micahscopes 78d] gotcha, so ideally not a hash with it's collisions
1280[igny 78d] @bramcohen Ok, sounds great. I'll be glad to help.
1281[clemens1992 78d] Hello everyone. Just wanted to say HI. :)
1282Have many questions but i got an exam on wednesday, so im pretty busy right now. Anyways im looking forward to chias launch in 2018
1283[anthonyowen 78d] Hey I'm interested in helping out. I could run some farming rigs if you need
1284[reneoelke 78d] Hi, guys, I'm new here. Thank you for this chat channel. What I don't like about "Proof of Work" blockchains is their huge ecological problem: they waste too much electricity. Therefore I am very enthusiastic about the idea behind Chia. I would like to help Chia launch 2018 and make it a success. What do I have to do to help (fixing bugs, approve merge requests, create translations[english > english], review & write technical documentations etc.)? What hardware and software do I need to test Chia? My preferred setup would be a Raspi 3 + XX TB hard disk space.
1285[zapu 78d] not sure about raspberry pi, depending on the hdds
1286[zapu 78d] you will probably have more luck with typical PC mobo with low-power cpu that has enough sata slots
1287[zapu 78d] I'm clueless myself though, but I remember having troubles with using too many USB things with rpi
1288[bramcohen 78d] @micahscopes It should also be long enough that there aren't collisions. The main reason it needs to be canonical is that its value is used as the challenge for the next block so it's important that an attacker not have the ability to select among several possible options and go with the one which favors them the most
1289[bramcohen 78d] @reneoelke We'll probably be welcoming help with internationalization of our web site in the future. Getting it set up for community contributions now
1290[micahscopes 78d] @bramcohen ahh yeah that makes sense, it makes it harder to game
1291[micahscopes 78d] @bramcohen i'm curious, did you consider going with a tangle-like structure instead of blockchain?  blockchain is definitely more proven
1292[micahscopes 78d] but DAGs are cool!
1293[bramcohen 78d] @micahscopes The only thing tangle seems to help with is orphans, which is a minor problem, and it fixes it with creating massive other problems
1294[micahscopes 78d] you can use them to store voxels at < 1 bit/voxel
1295[micahscopes 78d] yeah, there is lots of work to be done in the tangle space
1296[micahscopes 78d] makes sense to focus on your main idea (space/time proof) and use blockchain, which has been thoroughly explored
1297[clemens1992 78d] What will chia be based on?
1298[alfonsopereze 77d] @clemens1992 , I am sure that many of your questions can be answered already in the FAQ (https://chia.network/faq/)
1299[hodlmyballs 77d] I like it how Bram shuts down Iota on twitter
1300[hodlmyballs 77d] glad he is preaching about this shittiness of this shitcoin
1301[bramcohen 77d] Iota is just comical
1302[hodlmyballs 77d] Check out this piece on EOS @bramcohen  https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/investors-shell-out-dollar700-million-for-coins-with-no-purpose/ar-BBGXfKk
1303[windowsnt 77d] This sounds like it's based on succinct data structures.
1304[windowsnt 77d] @hodlmyballs nice name
1305[windowsnt 77d] What if this becomes so popular that harddrives skyrocket in price? I have like 13 TB of porn that would be cost prohibitive to move to tape archives
1306[hodlmyballs 77d] Just get a dropbox account, move your porn to the cloud
1307[hodlmyballs 77d] use your hardrives for chia
1308[windowsnt 77d] Can I use DB for chia?
1309[hodlmyballs 77d] That's a lot of porn, I would just delete it XD. I don't see how DB can run chia client since it isn't a remote desktop
1310[hodlmyballs 77d] Just a cloud folder
1311[hodlmyballs 77d] But I'm sure one of the devs will elaborate
1312[windowsnt 77d] I can have my db folder mounted on my OS?
1313[windowsnt 77d] PS I was joking about the porn. The HDD price thing still has me curious.
1314[hodlmyballs 77d] lol ok I was gonna say
1315[hodlmyballs 77d] I don't think you need an ssd
1316[hodlmyballs 77d] So save money and get a normal mechanical
1317[dkackman 77d] really excited about the possibilites with chia and getting involved in the testnet as soon as it's ready
1318[damionbudd 77d] Any info regarding the testing and or initial offering ?
1319[windowsnt 77d] They need to write the code first before it can be tested. They've got some math worked out now though.
1320[damionbudd 77d] True, want to make sure I don't miss any announcements so login here periodically to check. Thanks
1321[rustymonk 77d] In the future, I can help with the Russian-speaking community, as well as with testing farming and remote nodes
1322[debek 77d] I can help with the Polish-speaking comminity, app translate and farming too :)
1323[tosho 77d] I want to help too
1324[tosho 77d] with whatever
1325[ryan_singer 77d] we're really excited for when our coding efforts get to the point when we can accept community help like QA, l10n, i18n, etc. Stay tuned :-)
1326[tosho 77d] I hope you'll use your newsletter I'm not often in this chat. And it is too hard to read.
1327[ryan_singer 77d] We'll announce everything both here and on the official announcements list. If you subscribe there, you'll see all announcements, and then you can come here to discuss them :-)
1328[tosho 77d] sure thing
1329[tosho 77d] but I hope they fix keybase app soon
1330[zapu 77d] what's the specific bug you're hitting?
1331[tosho 77d] my eyes are hitting really hard reading on the chat
1332[zapu 77d] oh, font size? sorry for that :|
1333[zapu 77d] I could use that feature myself honestly
1334[tosho 77d] what is this ? font for ants?
1335[tosho 77d] :)
1336[mikeparisstuff 76d] im aware of the technical paper on the home page but it might as well be written in latin
1337[mikeparisstuff 76d] Is anyone aware of an explanation of the proof of space/time algorithm that chia builds upon?
1338[mikeparisstuff 76d] Would love to read something suited for a non-crypto expert
1339[jzila 76d] @mikeparisstuff Have you watched this? https://www.facebook.com/BerkeleyBlockchain/videos/2006069823011271/
1340[mikeparisstuff 76d] Watching now. Thanks!
1341[psutter 76d] The updated faq is good (finally saw it now). Ryan explained the rationale here in the chat, might want to add that to the answer for "Will Chia have a similar supply to that of Bitcoin".
1342It's nice to know the rationale: (Ryan) " Our plan is to have inflation be more steady and predictable; a small but stable amount of new chia in every block after the first. This should have a similar effect without front-loading the rewards to early participants"
1343[psutter 76d] also, is there no link to the faq from the front page?
1344[jzila 76d] hah there's a FAQ! Yes, a link from the front page would be excellent.
1345[psutter 76d] fyi https://chia.network/faq/
1346[jzila 76d] yeah I found it once you said it exists :)
1347[jzila 76d] thanks!
1348[bramcohen 76d] @psutter you are correct in that there isn't currently a link to the faq from the front page. We're getting set up so that our whole web site is in git and people can make pull requests to improve it
1349[reneoelke 76d] @jzila Thanks for the video. If I have understood correctly, Chia is also Quantum-safe because it uses the Merkle Tree algorithm.
1350[debek 76d] Where is official Chia newsletter? I dont see it on official page.
1351[rustymonk 76d] Hey guys! Is it correct to assume that Chia's fundamental value will be backed by data storage prices ($ per Gbyte)? Sort of like currencies that are backed / used to be backed by gold.. I'm not a very good economist, pls enlighten me on this topic  ^_^
1352[bramcohen 76d] @reneoelke Whether Chia is quantum safe is an interesting question. There are a bunch of different pieces of math which need to be used in different places and all are potentially vulnerable
1353[bramcohen 76d] @rustymonk Hell no. Chia has a proof-of-work type algorithm which bottlenecks of storage capacity. It does not provide storage services as part of that
1354[reneoelke 76d] @bramcohen I saw the mentioned video above and read about Merkle Tree. If Chia uses Merkle like algorithms it seems to be the right base for quantum safe software.
1355[bramcohen 76d] @reneoelke The blockchain itself and the proofs of space are *probably* quantum safe. The proof of time algorithm and BLS signatures probably not
1356[alfonsopereze 76d] Did someone succeed in making an ELI5 article about how Proof of Space works in combination with Proof of Time?
1357[alfonsopereze 76d] I would be delighted to read :)
1358[bramcohen 76d] @alfonsopereze That result isn't published yet
1359[alfonsopereze 76d] Gotcha, well I'll be lurking around to see what I can help with. Keep up the good work
1360[deon61 76d] Hi
1361[ryan_singer 76d] hi @deon61
1362[deon61 76d] tokens will be distributed through ico or otherwise?
1363[ryan_singer 76d] We're working on that now and have nothing to announce yet. It's our hope to do a public sale of some kind next year, and we're working with lawyers and regulators to figure it out
1364[deon61 76d] i live in Russia. Ready to help the project online and offline ways.
1365[deon61 76d] tokens ETH I hope not?
1366[deon61 76d] I believe in the project. and is ready to develop it.
1367[ryan_singer 76d] We are not planning to do any ERC-20 token. The only tokens we'll issue are the normal chia cryptocurrency in the genesis block.
1368[saintaquinas 75d] sorry i am not familiar with the chia network, just joined because i saw this was the largest group.
1369[saintaquinas 75d] is this a fork of bitcoin, or just something that improves the tech?
1370[ryan_singer 75d] check out our website at https://chia.network/
1371[ryan_singer 75d] It'll be a fork of bitcoin's codebase to create a new digital currency
1372[sukima 75d] How do we (this chat) prepare our machines so that when this is released we can start mining immediatly?
1373[windowsnt 75d] I think the politically correct term is "farming"
1374[davidbeep 75d] Just a general question for the chia team. What are some of your favorite dev teams in the crypto space right now? Any you aspire to be like or one-up?
1375[richardkiss 75d] our web site is now on github at https://github.com/Chia-Network/website
1376[richardkiss 75d] pull requests accepted!
1377[ryan_singer 75d] :+1:
1378[deon61 75d] and when will the mining be available? and whether it will be possible to drive to disks not connected to a direct PC?
1379[deon61 75d] Will the emission of coins be limited? How much is the maximum?
1380[debek 75d] Not minning but farming
1381[deon61 75d] Oh well. I want to know about farming.
1382[kewagi 75d] hey, just saw the mail about pull requests - have you decided on a system for internationalization already? I'd love to help with the translation, but it'd be easier if there was some kind of ruleset first :)
1383[kewagi 75d] not sure what best practice for that is nowadays, but since chia.network seems to run on apache, you could use something like mod_mime, maybe with an additional language toggler on the page in case the browser doesn't send the correct language info.
1384[digibob 75d] hi all, in the UK and very excited about Chia. Web dev here and will defintely keep an eye out for help requests etc. An automatic news feed section on the site would really help, imo. RSS Ground is great for this. I have an acc and more than happy to set one up.
1385[username401 75d] So burst coin recently trippled in value for no apparent reason.  Since many of us here are possibly migrating from farming burst to farming chia coin, I'd figure I'd ask why the sudden price spike?
1386[timcahir 75d] Thanks for add! Future investor/miner/contributer!
1387[zapu 75d] farmer*
1388[zapu 75d] ;-)
1389[timcahir 75d] Haha! Right... sorry! And I actually do some real farming as well! :)
1390[deon61 75d] ready to become an investor and a manufacturer.
1391[rafacv 75d] Hello! I've heard about chia for a while now and got really excited about it. More recently I'm trying to dive deeper into the technicalities and math around it and there's a long way for me to go yet and I have a few questions.
1392From an economical and more practical sense, I'm specially curious on how different proof of time is from proof of work. from what I understand both demand complex processing (in the end: energy waste), one to proof you spent the resources (energy, hardware, processing) and the other to proof you invested the time. what would make chia not as wasteful would be essentially not rewarding miners/farmers for this computation. As I see it, there would still be waste, but not so much because fewer people are actually required for the process and even fewer people economically impelled to do so as th
1393ere is no reward.
1394As I read somewhere, Bram said people would do proof of time to keep everybody honest. My question is: if there is no coordinating between the network, wouldn't proof of time potentially be wasteful as there could potentially be many concurrent proof of time going on? On the other side, having no incentives to do or check proof of time, wouldn't make the network more susceptible to be centralized by few big players?
1395I'm sure my questions are stupid for smarter people with deeper knowledge on the mechnics of chia and I'll greatly appreciate any shed of light on the matter and directions to what I should study to understand it better (links, papers, or really just theorems names).
1396[hodlmyballs 75d] Weird, I thought burst was dead
1397[hodlmyballs 75d] the volume is so freaking small, I don't even think it's on bittrex anymore
1398[hodlmyballs 75d] I know Raiblocks got super pumped recently
1399[bramcohen 75d] @rafacv It's unlikely that there will be more than a few proof of time servers, because everyone other than the very fastest one is just serving as backup. Even if there were a hundred or a thousand of them running the amount of electricity burned would still be extremely small compared to what goes into Bitcoin
1400[frogger 75d] Burst was undervalued imo. Thanks to the price jump the drives I bought in august just paid themselves off in almost exactly 4 months, so when you consider reduced electric costs, pretty much on par with gpu mining, so I'd say we're now at a fair price for burst.
1401[zapu 75d] how much space are you farming from?
1402[frogger 75d] Given the similarities I'm surprised more people here aren't mining burst, even if just to familiarize themselves with the process of HDD mining.
1403[frogger 75d] Not much. was just dabbling with 12 TB
1404[frogger 75d] But whatever those drives earn for the next year can now go towards buying more drives in anticipation of chia
1405[frogger 75d] and @username401 the reason for the jump is hype for the announcement next week, imo tied with the general altcoin surge
1406[zapu 75d] I was going to
1407[zapu 75d] I didn't have time to set up a pc for that
1408[zapu 75d] I have bunch of unused drives around but probably way under 10TB
1409[zapu 75d] so I was wondering if it's ever worth it right now
1410[frogger 75d] It's up to you. Like I said I think it's a good way to familiarize yourself with the concept, and hey its free money right? Setup can be confusing and take a few days. I assume chia will be much easier to setup, but thats like 8 months away.
1411[bramcohen 75d] Chia UX we need to work on. It will be complicated a bit by the background nature of it, which will mean that some (very small) part of it needs to be running as root, and setup will have to be done on a deallocated partition, but you can probably do things like shrink a file system partition, seed the new empty space, and grow the partition again
1412[psutter 74d] could setup be done like sfill? (overwrites unused space by writing then deleting a large file)
1413[bramcohen 74d] @psutter That would be problematic because there's no way to ask the underlying file system where the files you're writing are, and that information is needed for later farming
1414[frogger 74d] @bramcohen what are the advantages to this approach as opposed to creating a visible plot file on the existing partition?
1415[damionbudd 74d] @bramcohen what are you thoughts about proof of work and quantum computing, do you think quantum computers in the coming decades may break proof of work algorithms? If that did happen I can see proof of time and space wouldn't be susceptible to such an advace?
1416[frogger 74d] scroll up, he answered yesterday
1417[damionbudd 74d] Thanks
1418[damionbudd 74d] Sorry sometimes it hard to catch up on everything being discussed
1419[frogger 74d] my apologies, didn't mean to be rude
1420[hodlmyballs 74d] I thought burst was a shitcoin, guess they got their act together
1421[hodlmyballs 74d] a while back they had a ton of scam tokens
1422[ryan_singer 74d] "@reneoelke The blockchain itself and the proofs of space are *probably* quantum safe. The proof of time algorithm and BLS signatures probably not"
1423[hodlmyballs 74d] Geezus ripple is 1.22
1424[bramcohen 74d] @frogger the advantage is that it allows the farmer to use all available space but not exclusively, so the real file system automatically reclaims exactly the amount it needs without any special logic. We'll also support it just being a file. We'll certainly be prototyping that first
1425[bramcohen 74d] l20n looks like a good approach to internationalization although I'm not sure if we actually have to add so many files for it to work
1426[bramcohen 74d] referencing https://github.com/Chia-Network/website/pull/6
1427[lemonforest 74d] It also looks like 83% burst cap is already in circulation according to https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/burst/ thing.  That's provided my math's not crap.
1428[bramcohen 74d] @hodlmyballs Burstcoin was an earnest attempt but it's basically abandonware and has a lot of very serious technical issues
1429[lemonforest 74d] It also looks like 83%!b(MISSING)urst cap is already in circulation according to https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/burst/ thing.  That's provided my math's not crap.
1430[dkackman 74d] @bramcohen  l20n does add a ton of stuff witht he basic npm install. i'll take a look as to how much of it is needed. a lot of looks like polyfill junk
1431[lemonforest 74d] @bramcohen so went a fiddle with burst, since I'd not heard of storage based mining before today, and now wonder do all storage based mining platforms consume space for plotting or will Chia be able to read and write to blocks not defined in the file table? I was a bit shocked when my ssd became full in seconds :(
1432[frogger 74d] From four messages up ^ Chia will have the option to plot the whole drive, but in a way that allows your computer to just overrite the plots as more space is needed.
1433[lemonforest 74d] That's different than the dynamic plotting?
1434[bramcohen 74d] @lemonforest the file system won't even be able to tell that farming is happening. As far as it's concerned all the space is simply unused
1435[takasugi 74d] Will investors need to be on a white list to purchase from the inital ico? Or can anyone buy in?
1436[lemonforest 74d] Awesome. I can speculate how that might happen so it'll be cool to see how it works out in such a way I'm sure I wouldn't have imagined!
1437[takasugi 74d] Just looked back and saw someone posted a link to faq, all the info is there 😅
1438[alfonsopereze 74d] Someone just made some quick profits ... and he has it as pinned: https://twitter.com/officialmcafee/status/944206175100424193
1439[alfonsopereze 74d] sorry if that was too off-topic
1440[zapu 74d] heh :|
1441[bramcohen 74d] Some nice deep markets with no pump and dumps right there
1442[hodlmyballs 74d] I'm going to hodl groestel for a bit, use the profits to invest in Chia :)
1443[debek 74d] @alfonsopereze It's look like Chia "With Burst and its Proof-of-Capacity (PoC) algorithm using free disk space instead of energy consuming CPUs and GPUs, mining barely uses more energy than just leaving your computer on."
1444[username401 74d] So at the end of the day what currency will use less energy, Burst coin or Chia?
1445[kurz 74d] hi
1446[kurz 74d] @alfonsopereze ha - saw burst today, looks legit as well! we need many such good currencies, the faster the better
1447[alfonsopereze 74d] @debek
1448```Q: How is Chia any different from other storage coins such as Burst?
1449A: Because burstcoin doesn't have the proof of time component, there are some attacks that make it unsuitable as a mining algorithm.```
1450[alfonsopereze 74d] https://chia.network/faq/
1451[kurz 74d] time is tight
1452[kurz 74d] but if it adds significant security it might be the right way
1453[bramcohen 74d] @username401 The amount of power used by either is de minimis
1454[allencox 74d] Seeing some interesting things in Medium today about IOTA, and how it uses a tangled verification chain..  Given the envisioned decentralized nature of Chia, would that possibly be a better solution for keeping track of everything?
1455[bramcohen 74d] No. The only thing which tangles fix is orphans, which aren't actually a problem. IOTA is an obvious scam. Completely centralized system and they can't even do that well
1456[tosho 73d] Will you go with this statement  publicly on record :)
1457[therealklanni 73d] @mods would it be ok if I share the new crypto currency Keybase chat that just started? Figured folks here might appreciate it
1458[bramcohen 73d] @therealklanni You can mention it but don't spam
1459[therealklanni 73d] OK, thanks! I won't :)
1460[therealklanni 73d] Anyone interested in chatting about cryptocurrency in general can check out the (open) cryptocurrency.chat team on https://keybase.io/popular-teams
1461[therealklanni 73d] Just opened it up tonight
1462[hodlmyballs 73d]       Bram I hope you don't get sued by ChiaPet @bramcohen cha cha chiaaaaa :)
1463[hodlmyballs 73d] Phew I get silly when I'm tired. I think you'll be ok
1464[hodlmyballs 73d] Salvia hispanica, commonly known as chia, is a species of flowering plant in the mint family, Lamiaceae, native to central and southern Mexico and Guatemala.
1465[hodlmyballs 73d] wikipedia is awesome
1466[hodlmyballs 73d] chia seeds are a concentrated food containing healthy omega-3 fatty acids, carbohydrates, protein, fiber, antioxidants, and calcium. Chia seeds are an unprocessed, whole-grain food that can be absorbed by the body as seeds .
1467[therealklanni 73d] Chia is just a plant, they can't patent a species name ;)
1468[bramcohen 73d] We're going to avoid making plant-encrusted clay figurines
1469[saintaquinas 73d] ahah what made you all choose the name chia, that is an interesting respons @therealklanni was it really for that reason?
1470[therealklanni 73d] If you're asking me why they called it chia, I don't know, can only speculate that it's because chia is easy to grow?
1471[cyptogeek 73d] @saintaquinas check the FAQ https://chia.network/faq/
1472[lemonforest 73d] you had it there, chia is a plant so since they want to refer to this as farming instead of mining. outside looking in, could have been barley or flax just the same but they didn't have an awesome 90's kid thing called flax pet... now I want a barley pet from venture :(
1473[bramcohen 73d] Flax doesn't have the same oomph as chia. I liked amaranth but it was too long
1474[cr0n_dist0rti0n 73d] Yeah. No more than 2 syllables is a good idea. It’s easy to say and has a nice sound. Plus it’s obscure enough for North American audiences to create its own conceptual identity, unlike flax and barley. Mint is refreshing which is a good image to have as well. And it’s got nice purple flowers. Chia was a good choice.
1475[saintaquinas 73d] Ahh thanks for link
1476[saintaquinas 73d] I see why makes good sense :)
1477[hodlmyballs 73d] Sassasfrass@bramcohen
1478[hodlmyballs 73d] Guys I'm farming sassafrass and I just bought some coffee with some sassafrass. Sassafrass the cryptocurrency with sass
1479[hodlmyballs 73d] ;)
1480[hodlmyballs 73d] @bramcohen
1481there we go
1482[windowsnt 72d] Lol
1483[windowsnt 72d] Why not call it weed? You can farm weed if you can hide it from the DEA
1484[bramcohen 72d] Tulips are pretty. We could have called it tulip
1485[ryan_singer 72d] Lol
1486[windowsnt 72d] Is Chia gluten free?
1487[bramcohen 72d] yes
1488[windowsnt 72d] Cause that would make a great ad campaign. "Gluten Free Crypto currency!"
1489[windowsnt 72d] Since chia is stationed in San Fran, do you have to do the prop 65 warning that it's known to cause cancer?
1490[bramcohen 72d] Chia has Generally Accepted As Safe status, it's an ancient grain
1491[windowsnt 72d] :+1:
1492[lfga 72d] 🤦🏼‍♂️you guys are funny
1493[nisenbaum 72d] Happy holidays to everyone!
1494[ryan_singer 72d] 🎅
1495[djpandemic 72d] Will need to make a chia pet bank to hold all my chia paper wallets
1496[lemonforest 72d] Can't do this with tulips... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tzY7qQFij_M
1497Also, can't believe they still sell these- now with Bob Ross and stuff.
1498[hodlmyballs 72d] There's a new cryptocurrency boys and girls. It's the currency that grows...on your hard drive :P
1499[hodlmyballs 72d] ok I'm done lol. I'll be serious from now on
1500[hodlmyballs 72d] The one alt coin i think has promise is groestl and I definitely feel chia has more promise than that
1501[cr0n_dist0rti0n 72d] Happy holidays. Cheers.
1502[dkackman 72d] Got an old file server with 10tb reimaged and waiting to farm on the test net 😊
1503[username401 72d] From what I've been reading it's going to be at least another 6 months before a testnet appears,, and a few more months after than until they iron out all the bugs that popup, and release the real chia network.
1504[dkackman 72d]
1505I like to be prepared. Plus the thing has been sitting dormant forever
1506[koguma 71d] Will the client fill up all the free space it detects for "proof"?
1507[bramcohen 71d] Merry Christmas 🎅🎄
1508[qball 71d] Merry Christmas!!
1509[zoshe 71d] Merry Christmas, and thanks Bram and Associates for making the World a better place.
1510[hodlmyballs 70d] Merry Christmas
1511[hodlmyballs 70d] I think this faq section needs to be refined
1512[hodlmyballs 70d] Q: What is "proof of space?"
1513A: "Proof of space" is not actually storage. Storage is of something directly useful and requires lots of bandwidth. Proofs of space are of data which is useless for anything but generating proofs of space and making it requires essentially no bandwidth. Proof of actual storage requires ridiculous amounts of bandwidth so it will not be used in Chia.
1514[igny 70d] Merry Christmas!
1515[hodlmyballs 70d] This is also confusing
1516[hodlmyballs 70d] Q: What does proof of time mean?
1517A: Technically proofs of time are also part of the farming, but those tend to be done by a few actors who don't get anything out of it directly.
1518[hodlmyballs 70d] I feel like whoever is doing the faq needs to explain it like we're five years old
1519[hodlmyballs 70d] or like we're 12
1520[rickyhanna 70d] Hello
1521[bramcohen 70d] Greetings Ricky
1522[bramcohen 70d] @hodlmyballs We are accepting pull requests for improvements to the FAQ. I need to do a thorough going-over of it myself
1523[hodlmyballs 70d] awesome thanks @bramcohen  I just noticed some confusion among readers. I'm part of several crypto discord groups and people are excited but confused about the faq
1524There are good economic reasons why central banks around the world aim for a small amount of inflation for their currencies, usually close to, but below 2% per annum. A small amount of inflation incentivizes spending the money now rather than saving it for later, which is good for the economy. Deflation on the other hand incentivizes *not* spending the money now, but saving it for later (speculating on higher prices in the future) - which is exactly what we see with Bitcoin now.
1525To be truly useful as a currency for everyday payments, a currency should have a small amount of inflation. That's a feature, not a bug. I think it would be perfect for a new cryptocurrency to have a builtin inflation rate of 1.85% per annum or so.
1526[lvcivs 69d] I am a little worried about deflation. It seems Chia will allow some inflation, but the inflation will approach zero over time. That means Chia will be deflationary in the long term. It is better than Bitcoin with its "hardcoded" maximum of 21 million coins, but still a problem in my opinion.
1527There are good economic reasons why central banks around the world aim for a small amount of inflation for their currencies, usually close to, but below 2%!p(MISSING)er annum. A small amount of inflation incentivizes spending the money now rather than saving it for later, which is good for the economy. Deflation on the other hand incentivizes *not* spending the money now, but saving it for later (speculating on higher prices in the future) - which is exactly what we see with Bitcoin now.
1528To be truly useful as a currency for everyday payments, a currency should have a small amount of inflation. That's a feature, not a bug. I think it would be perfect for a new cryptocurrency to have a builtin inflation rate of 1.85%!p(MISSING)er annum or so.
1529[namyamai 69d] Hello thank you for the add. I am a self learner trying to learn linux and programming to catch up with you all. Thanks again for the add
1530[qball 69d] Any discussions on what exchange(s) Chia may be listed with?  I’m sure others have had good/bad experiences with lots of them...I’ve only used 4
1531[cyptogeek 69d] @qball That's a long way off as the coin has not been created yet.
1532[cyptogeek 69d] @hodlmyballs sorry my bad. The FAQ is literally pulled from keybase questions to @bramcohen and @ryan_singer therefore it's not complete. Many of the duscussion points are theoretical and conclusive answers are vague until @bramcohen has completed his journals linking POS to POT. The dots will be linked in time. If there are any obvious flaws please do a pull request and fill the gaps.
1533[qball 69d] Lol, true...sometimes just get a little ahead of things
1534[lvcivs 69d] @cyptogeek I am aware of that, but my point is that it should be higher, ideally close to 2%.
1535[cyptogeek 69d] @Ivcivs @bramcohen said that inflation will be kept very close to 0.
1536[lvcivs 69d] @cyptogeek I am aware of that, but my point is that it should be higher, ideally close to 2%!
1537(MISSING)[cyptogeek 68d] @Ivcivs I understand why you would suggest this as it would incourage spending, rather than sitting on Chia because it will be worth more later. but this Keisan method of quantitative easing, buying more stuff to improve the economy is a factor in why Bitcoin was born and why people are starting to reject aspects of capitalism such as consumerism for the sake of GDP. It's a complicated economic discussion and the 2% inflation is thrown about, but why should people be forced to spend? What's wrong with Chia being worth more later. Spending on stuff we need and making pe
1538ople think more about being thrifty will lead to a better environment as we will steer away from a throwaway society. Who benefits from this 2%? Currency that maintains and increases in value is the opposite of what we have now and why cryptocurrency is picking up pace in the mainstream
1539[cyptogeek 68d] @Ivcivs I understand why you would suggest this as it would incourage spending, rather than sitting on Chia because it will be worth more later. but this Keisan method of quantitative easing, buying more stuff to improve the economy is a factor in why Bitcoin was born and why people are starting to reject aspects of capitalism such as consumerism for the sake of GDP. It's a complicated economic discussion and the 2%!i(MISSING)nflation is thrown about, but why should people be forced to spend? What's wrong with Chia being worth more later. Spending on stuff we need and making pe
1540ople think more about being thrifty will lead to a better environment as we will steer away from a throwaway society. Who benefits from this 2%!?(MISSING) Currency that maintains and increases in value is the opposite of what we have now and why cryptocurrency is picking up pace in the mainstream
1541[wrekhouse 68d] I think this is an interesting idea to use space rather than work to verify transactions.  I’d like to help in any way possible
1542The Friedman rule chooses a nominal interest rate of zero, so that those who hold money don't suffer any loss in value of that money due to inflation.  This is more efficient in the long run and well understood to be optimal under lots of different models.  Because of GDP today, this would be a deflation of 3.5%.  This policy is well approximated and more stable by a hands off approach.
1543[alexwice 68d] The following is only my personal opinion on inflation
1544Countries such as Costa Rica and Cambodia that use local currency + usd, people spend with local first where they can.  The lack of movement in usd doesn't mean those local currencies are better than usd - it means the opposite.
1545Even when computers/phones were getting cheaper extremely quickly over time, people still bought them at the expensive price.  Similarly, if everyone's money were deflationary, people would still buy things.
1546The Friedman rule chooses a nominal interest rate of zero, so that those who hold money don't suffer any loss in value of that money due to inflation.  This is more efficient in the long run and well understood to be optimal under lots of different models.  Because of GDP today, this would be a deflation of 3.5%! (MISSING) This policy is well approximated and more stable by a hands off approach.
1547When money is made less desirable, such as by printing more of it, there is more of a demand for other goods compared to that money ("stimulating the economy"), but this in itself isn't a good thing, as it lowers your utility by definition.  As an analogy, say you prefer a pen [money] to a pencil [phone], but then I break the pen and you now prefer the pencil.  It's not a good thing that my pen-breaking policies have encouraged you to buy pencils, it's a worse thing because you preferred the pen.  This kind of policy pushes people to participate in markets in order to keep up with inflation, w
1548hich creates a massive inefficiency disproportionately affecting the poor.
1549[bramcohen 68d] The rate of inflation in Chia will be completely minimal compared to the sort of price moves which Bitcoin has had
1550[bramcohen 68d] Macroeconomic argument don't really apply to something on the current scale of cryptocurrencies. If a country was actually using a cryptocurrency as their legal tender it would actually matter, sort of, but the world doesn't even vaguely work that way today
1551[hodlmyballs 68d] ^
1552[cyptogeek 68d] @bramcohen the bank of England and the FED have trialled Ripple and now have their own digital currency departments. It looks like digital currency is just awaiting large scale adoption on a legal tender sort of way. Dependant on various factors this could become a viable option in many countries where FIAT is failing them, some countries sooner ratherthan later. Could this inflation percentage be soft forked later? I'd be concerned about devaluing the currency so hard coding an inflation cap into Chia dependant on a set of rules ( large scale adoption) may prevent conflict lat
1553er. I don't know how you could hard code something like this or if it would be a BIP type scenario for a later time?
1554[bramcohen 68d] @cyptogeek Ripple isn't a cryptocurrency. It would be very easy to design a simple centralized database which allowed adjustments to the supply of currency over time
1555[bramcohen 68d] Hell Ripple could do it with that massive premine they have
1556[bramcohen 68d] Chia will be a real cryptocurrency with a blockchain with actual rules
1557[cyptogeek 68d] I agree. Ripple is all premined and a terrible crypto, but banks have been trsting it and tests have supported their ambition for sovereign based coin
1558[cyptogeek 68d] Greek finance minister: Verafacus was contemplating Bitcoin when the EU were enforcing terrible rules on their people. Now crypto is more established. If something like the crash of 08 happens again, you could see countries like Greece raising a middle finger to their masters ( beauracrates at the EU) and adopting a crypto like Chia
1559[bramcohen 68d] If you're a country and want to do something in blockchain doing a lightly trusted auditable public ledger which supports smart contracts is an obvious approach
1560[bramcohen 68d] Although the amount of talent in the space is a bit thin. Ripple can't even get their shit together to ditch XRP and make a new one with CTs which they completely own
1561[cyptogeek 68d] I notice Ripple shills on many forums now trying to push this a a formidable crypto. I can see it being a useful tool for centralized banks but it is in no way in the same league as the decentralized crypto's on the market. When you look at what makes a crypto better than FIAT, decentralisation is a major feature.  I think Ripple's rise is made up from media hype and general public naivety. Even my mum asked me to help her invest hwr pension money into Ripple. I soon put her on the right path and told her why Ripple is not here to stay
1562[bramcohen 68d] Ripple isn't as stupid as Iota
1563[alexwice 68d] @bramcohen :tada:
1564[cyptogeek 68d] No XRP works. It's useful for banks. Don't see it being useful as a general public utilized currency though
1565[bramcohen 68d] I'm cleaning up my MerkleSet code now. Changed the reference implementation to not waste bits for metadata any more. Also did some code cleanups, most notably removing all the range(2) loops and changing INVALID to TRUNCATED which is what it actually means. I can see why people get annoyed at my code
1566[bramcohen 68d] There are some subtleties to how hashing is handled with the metadata rearrangement. For now I'm keeping the property that the root of an empty set is a special all zeros value. Will need to revisit whether that's a good idea later, because that isn't a secure hash. Leaving it for now to not change the tests.
1567[cyptogeek 68d] Are you intending on adding these cleanups as BIP's to help support Bitcoin too?
1568[bramcohen 68d] This is going into my MerkleSet, which Laolu wants to use for something lightning related, so it will wind up in a BIP eventually
1569[bramcohen 68d] The most coherent plan for a BIP we have right now is to upstream BLS signatures and their aggregation
1570[cyptogeek 68d] @bramcohen Fantastic. Love how the community is supporting one another in advancement.
1571[bramcohen 68d] Some of these things we're doing are no-brainer enhancements which nobody else is working on because people are stupid and the core devs are busy with basic shit and don't feel like sticking their neck out for real enhancements at this point
1572[lvcivs 68d] @alexwice you are right that if everybody's money were deflationary, people would still buy things. But they would only buy what is absolutely necessary and delay everything else to later. Businesses would stop investing and just sit around and wait. It will slow down and eventually paralyze the economic activity.
1573@bramcohen I do not think that you can dismiss this as a macroeconomic argument which does not apply, because it has real effects already now on Bitcoin. I don't have numbers, but I am pretty sure that the vast majority of Bitcoin transactions today are not to pay for coffee, pizza, or webhosting fees. Rather, the transactions are done by people who invest some of their savings into Bitcoin with the expectation that prices will go up in the future (aka currency speculation). This is a direct consequence of Bitcoin's deflationary nature which makes it unsuitable as the "electronic cash" it was
1574intended to be.
1575[zapu 68d] I think people will start spending when they start getting paid in given crypto. Why buy BTC with fiat to buy goods when you can just buy goods with fiat.
1576[zapu 68d] unless you're into dark net markets, I guess
1577[cyptogeek 68d] @zapu Some people would rather put savings into Bitcoin where they benefit from a currency that increases in value. The quantitative easing that is going on is criminal. The problem with Bitcoin at the moment is finding places to spend it without the astronomical fees associated with Bitcoin payments. Once adoption increases, Lightning network, atomic swaps etc the chances of buying stuff and being paid a wage in crypto becomes more likely
1578[bramcohen 68d] Quantitative easing doesn't do what you think it does, and going off the gold standard was clearly a good thing, but that's all completely irrelevant to cryptocurrencies, whose value is determined by plain old supply and demand
1579[booksandsuch 68d] How would Chia's energy consumption compare with Directed Acyclic Graph projects like RaiBlocks?
1580[bramcohen 67d] Using a DAG has no effect on energy consumption
1581[hodlmyballs 67d] A less eloquent question, Is Raiblocks a shitcoin?
1582[hodlmyballs 67d] I mean I guess from a supply and demand perspective it is a success
1583[hodlmyballs 67d] but functionally, not sure
1584[bramcohen 67d] I haven't heard of it before. Given that it's a coin, most likely it's a shitcoin
1585[booksandsuch 67d] It's actually interesting (atleast to me).  TL;DR:
1586"In this paper we presented the framework for a trustless,
1587feeless, low-latency cryptocurrency that utilizes a novel blocklattice
1588structure and delegated Proof of Stake voting. The
1589network requires minimal resources, no high-power mining
1590hardware, and can process high transaction throughput. All
1591of this is achieved by having individual blockchains for each
1592account, eliminating access issues and inefficiencies of a
1593global data-structure."
1594- https://raiblocks.net/media/RaiBlocks_Whitepaper__English.pdf
1595[bramcohen 67d] Yeah that's complete bullshit
1596[hodlmyballs 67d] LOL^ I had a hunch. sounds word soup
1597[hodlmyballs 67d] only alt coin I hold is groestl. I used to hold eth, I will get back in later
1598[booksandsuch 67d] :disappointed_relieved:
1599[booksandsuch 67d] Good to know it's not something to look into deeper on the technical side, was just going through the source.  Seemed like a semi-novel approach...
1600[hodlmyballs 67d] Raiblocks breaks the first rule of thermodynamics
1601[hodlmyballs 67d] The first law, also known as Law of Conservation of Energy, states that energy cannot be created or destroyed in an isolated system.
1602[hodlmyballs 67d] If you're moving something you need to spend energy, Can't just create it out of nothing  on one end and say no fees
1603[hodlmyballs 67d] magic, pump my coin mofos
1604[hodlmyballs 67d] If people are staking, ,they're getting fees imo
1605[hodlmyballs 67d] so the white paper is self contradictory
1606[knopik 67d] The "fee" and/or "consumption of energy" can be captured by something other than the coin protocol. Just like you don't spend anyting to send an email via SMTP or do a Google search via TCP/IP protocols, the coin itself doesn't necessarily need to capture the transaction cost.
1607[bramcohen 67d] No need to go into detail debunking what they're saying. They're claiming every pipe dream feature anybody could want without any real technical talent. It's just bullshit.
1608[bramcohen 67d] DAGs don't do much to make make blockchains better and create a lot of complexity and problems. It's weird that people have been latching on to such an uninteresting thing as a panacea
1609[rustymonk 67d] I had a chance to read through a Burstcoin's new white paper. Basically, a word salad: they want to implement Lightning Network, zk-Snarks, and, wait for it, DAG Tangle... As far as I understand, Chia's purpose is to be a currency, and be good at it, no bullshit. Cohesive consensus algorithm, farming, smart transactions. It's gonna be much easier to explain to laymen, imo, which will help the usability issue. So, cheers, guys, as a member of a community, I'll support this project any time
1610[ninjasoup 67d] Was hoping someone would look through Burst's new white paper and try to make sense of it
1611[takasugi 67d] I feel so dumb reading through this chat 😂
1612[takasugi 67d] I got to read up more into all the finer details
1613[drillith 67d] been a while since i have been in here, wanting to keep my interest here, any new (month old) developments?
1614[rustymonk 67d] Well, 0,5% inflation certainly would't hurt.. Could incentivise farmers to release their Chia coins into the market, thus increasing adoption
1615[lvcivs 67d] What you are designing sounds more like a commodity then, something like "electronic gold". That may have some use, but it will be ill-suited as a currency for everyday payments.
1616This could be fixed by making Chia slightly inflationary, as I said.
1617Quantitative easing is the name of an asset purchase program launched by some major central banks in recent years with the purpose of lowering interest rates. It is not the same thing as inflation (although it may cause some inflation in the long term). Anyway, it is not relevant for the question of whether a new coin should be designed to be inflationary or not.
1618[rustymonk 67d] Well, 0,5%!i(MISSING)nflation certainly would't hurt.. Could incentivise farmers to release their Chia coins into the market, thus increasing adoption
1619[zmeyc 67d] @bramcohen Have you done some research about possibility of proof-of-time implementation that doesn't require some trusted party (PoT servers) to issue proof challenges? I can see how time servers could use some kind of RSA timelock challenge (for example), but it would be awesome if it would be possible to invent some algo that doesn't need extra entities
1620[bramcohen 67d] @lvcivs the thing getting in the way of Bitcoin for everyday payments is scaling, which is addressed by lightning network, which we will most definitely be supporting
1621[bramcohen 67d] @zmeyc There's a not yet published result which allows for proofs of time which don't require any third party interaction. Right now they require a single trusted setup with a 1-of-n requirement
1622[azamat 67d] Why to choose Chia? Simply please
1623[azamat 67d] Over other less costly crypto currencies
1624[tangtd666 67d] When will we be able to get Chia?
1625[hodlmyballs 67d] I don't think anyone can judge if Chia is costly or not because it does not exist yet
1626[hodlmyballs 67d] and the costiliness of a good is a function of the utility of the good and the deman and scarcity of that god
1627[hodlmyballs 67d] Q2 2018 is when the crowd sale will begin
1628[hodlmyballs 67d] Geezus Ripple pumped hard
1629[bramcohen 67d] Good grief the new burst whitepaper is bullshit
1630[drillith 66d] explain why it is BS?
1631[bramcohen 66d] BS is sort of a default. The onus is on writing to prove that they aren't word salad
1632[bramcohen 66d] Slightly more specifically, the gesturing towards lightning on burst is uninteresting: of course you can do lightning on burst. And the authors seem to profoundly miss the point of lightning with the idea that each tangle has its own separate lightning network. But where it really goes off the rails is talking about tangles. The central idea seems to be that you can scale better if instead of full nodes validating everything you have people making some transactions validate other transactions and everybody trusts the system as a whole sort of works. This has all manner of attac
1633ks where somone sneaks in an invalid transaction either because they want the transaction or because they wish to reveal it later and thereby invalidate a huge chunk of the blockchain. This is a fundamentally weakened threat model and convincing anybody that they should trust it is a tall order. Also basing it on IOTA is, ahem, not confidence inspiring. To their credit they do say that they're switching from iota's hash function because it's (a) been broken and (b) the iota authors said they made it vulnerable on purpose. Maybe that would have been a good point to abandon all ideas from iota c
1634ompletely
1635[nurazhar 66d] hi bram, will the ICO accept litecoin?
1636[bramcohen 66d] @nurazhar That hasn't been decided yet
1637[deon61 66d] 1) When can I buy a coin? 2) How many coins will be issued? 3) In what currencies can I buy coins?
1638Option 2: part pre mine, part farming %
1639Option 3: farming %
1640Option 4: Legal ICO type method
1641Option 5: Legal ICO type method & farming %
1642Option etc etc etc
1643[nurazhar 66d] Vote for
1644Option 1: pre mine
1645Option 2: part pre mine, part farming %!
1646(MISSING)Option 3: farming %!
1647(MISSING)Option 4: Legal ICO type method
1648Option 5: Legal ICO type method & farming %!
1649(MISSING)Option etc etc etc
1650Option 3
1651[nurazhar 66d] @deon61 you have to read a bit - it's not even started
1652[nurazhar 66d] why 3? incentivies decentralization and participation/robustness
1653[nurazhar 66d] after reading FAQ = option 2 if this even matter
1654[bramcohen 66d] I don't appreciate people coming in trying to hold polls as if I'm required to do what they say
1655[hodlmyballs 66d] Yep, this isn't a democracy
1656[t3hpwn 66d] I thought that guy posting the pole was an engineer or part of the dev team, glad Bram came in and cleared that up. Let's stay patient and wait for an official update from the Chia team.
1657[hodlmyballs 66d] He's a wanker that just joined
1658[cyptogeek 66d] @hodlmyballs please be good natured. We all want Chia to succeed but anamosity towards others could put off many investors into Chia. We want the network effect as everyone benefits.
1659[cyptogeek 66d] @bramcohen I think many including myself can get a little over excited about your innovative ideas and can't help but try and butt thrir own ideas in. This should be celebrated as it bounces ideas and creates momentum. I think @nurazhar English is limited,  but I don't think he means to be bossy. He's just giving his point if view. Input and excitement around Chia should be encouraged imo as it leads to a more welcoming and supportive community. It is your innovation and genius that steers this ship and I think this is why Chia will succeed no matter the polls
1660[bramcohen 65d] Community input is quite welcome. People acting like they're in charge is not
1661[hodlmyballs 65d] I must admit I have a perverse need to see Ripple, bitcoin, and eth dethroned
1662[hodlmyballs 65d] :)
1663[hodlmyballs 65d] Ripple as number 2 is pretty ridiculous
1664[bramcohen 65d] Yeah it shows how nuts the market is
1665[hodlmyballs 65d] I never bought it because it wasn't moving and I figured because it had such a high amount in circulation, nothing would happen
1666[hodlmyballs 65d] but all the crazy koreans bought it probably because it was under a dollar XD
1667[hodlmyballs 65d] and they started a self fullfilling prophecy
1668[username401 65d] So appearently now in the US started in 2018 every cryptocoin exchange is a taxable event.  So if you exchange bitcoin for ripple you can be taxed on that exchange.  Could be problematic if your day trading crypto coins.  Coins held for longer than 1 year are subject to capital gains tax.    Has anyone heard about this yet?  Will this cause problems if you want to buy your daily coffee with crypto currency?
1669[hodlmyballs 65d] As far as I know crypto is treated as property according to the IRS
1670[hodlmyballs 65d] so it is a taxable event when you change it to fiat
1671[hodlmyballs 65d] that counts as selling property
1672[hodlmyballs 65d] The work the IRS would have to do to track all those wallets would be ridiculous
1673[hodlmyballs 65d] There are like over 200 coins traded daily
1674[username401 65d]   The rules have changed.  Starting in 2018 crypto is taxable even if it isn't exchanged for fiat currency.  A crypto to crypto trade should be taxed according to the new rules.  Honestly don't believe it would be difficult to keep track of "most" transactions.  New software can be made to track everything automaticaly. What I'm worried about is if these new rules somehow make it difficult or impossible to use crypto currencies for simple purchases, like buying coffee.
1675[hodlmyballs 65d] ^That doesn't make any sense. When you buy something with bitcoin you don't exchange it for fiat, the vendor does
1676[hodlmyballs 65d] So even if this 2018 rule is true, you're not the one exchanging the currency for fiat. the vendor is
1677[hodlmyballs 65d] you're just moving it
1678[lemonforest 65d] It is true. I posted about it somewhere not long ago about the same time Back of America was awarded a patent for atomic swaps. Standby...
1679[lemonforest 65d] Maybe I just mentioned it to the boss. Can't seem to find it but here's some patent shenanigans as a consolation. https://www.coindesk.com/bank-of-america-outlines-cryptocurrency-exchange-system-in-patent-award/
1680[lemonforest 65d] Hn link. Is worded with reference to the btc and eth. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15978456
1681[hodlmyballs 65d] I don't think they can enforce that
1682[hodlmyballs 65d] Logistically speaking. But whatever, I don't really care
1683[igny 65d] Hi all! In order to help as a farmer, how many storage (aprox) do you think I should have? I understand that an external hard drive would be better... Also, should the hard drive be completely dedicated to farming? Thanks ;)
1684[igny 65d] another question: I have a mac. Will farming be possible (when testing the network) be possible with mac, or just with Linux, for instance...?
1685[igny 65d] *Ok just a question about Ripple. If  I understand well, as it is so centralized and the company behind controls the ripple supply (which is so massive) at any moment they can generate much more ripples, thus devaluating the coin? Putting its value back to 0.1 dollars, for instance?
1686[igny 65d] -but if the company behind ripple devaluates the value of the coin that would discourage investors...
1687[igny 65d] *you see I’m new to the crypto world, but willing to understand it ;)
1688[username401 65d] Hi Igny I believe the developers mentioned a lower end of 100gb or maybe 1tb not sure.  The more space you have dedicated to Chia the better your odds of actually winning chia coin.  Im confident enough to say that your harddrive doesn't need to be 100% dedicated to farming.  Not sure what OS chia farming programs will launch with.
1689[username401 65d] Hi Igny I believe the developers mentioned a lower end of 100gb or maybe 1tb not sure.  The more space you have dedicated to Chia the better your odds of actually winning chia coin.  Im confident enough to say that your harddrive doesn't need to be 100%!d(MISSING)edicated to farming.  Not sure what OS chia farming programs will launch with.
1690[username401 65d] Currently Chia is scheduled to begin just a test network 6 months from now, so were still a ways away here.  I'm not sure how much influence the developers have over the currency after the release it, but I believe they said they didn't want to change anything after launch.  I don't think they could or would devalue Chia.  I don't see that as being  advantagouse for anyone.
1691[0_vortex 65d] so how can we get involved with this ?
1692[cyptogeek 65d] @0_vortex this depends on your skill level and resources. Late 2018 testing is needed so participation is appreciated. If there is a page of the Chia site that needs changing you can do a pull request on GitHub.
1693[7amoodiya 65d] @cyptogeek will there be a step-by-step method in setting up of the network on one's computer to help contribute to the participation of the test..Im asking on behalf of the noobs (myself included those who lack the skill )really love to get involved with developing community, this has garnered so much interest from my side
1694[bramcohen 65d] @7amoodiya The idea is to make it as brainless as possible. There will be a few modes of operation, the simplest being to allocate a file and use it, but that takes up disk space exclusively. There will be other approaches which use disk space in the background so you can't even tell it's being utilized
1695[bramcohen 65d] There don't appear to be channel topics on keybase at this time
1696[7amoodiya 65d] @bramcohen I see (hope it works on my i5 laptop), hoping for when the development stage have reached the testing phase by then a page dedicating to the set up would be helpful if that doesn't cause trouble or more work for you guys... hopefully we might have a channel at keybase by that time :)
1697[cyptogeek 65d] @7amoodiya That'd be great. @bramcohen do you think a Youtube channel might be worth setting up for Chia? I'm a dab hand at creating video tutorials and one of the popular apps on the playstore has linked to one of my video demonstration  tutorials on their home page. It could be an amalgamation of your interviews, release information, tutorials etc.
1698[bramcohen 65d] @cyptogeek It seems like we should eventually have a youtube channel and a subreddit, but we're mostly heads down on development right now and reddit and youtube comment sections aren't exactly bright shining examples of social media
1699[cyptogeek 65d] I was just thinking exposure and adoption from an official Youtube page that you own, rather than sporadic videos from unofficial pages. Disabling comments would be good as I agree about the general stupidity and shilling in these forums. Completely understand that development is number one priority at the moment.
1700[igny 65d] thanks username401 :)
1701[dreddwolf 65d] @bramcohen When you do the first ICO do you already have a plan on how to market this. What forms of payment are going to be accepted from day 1? I'm guessing you will already have a wallet just for Chia. Two features I couldn't beg more for is simplified purchasing and security checks.
1702[cyptogeek 65d] @dreddwolf it won't be an ICO, but a proper regulated purchasing system. This funding choice has not been finalised yet. Dependant on the funding method it maybe out of Bram's hands what verification method or payment method is required.
1703[nurazhar 65d] i thought crytogeek was part of chia's team sorry
1704[igny 65d] I just saw the FAQs in the website. Should have checked that before asking.
1705[cyptogeek 65d] @nurazhar just a misunderstanding mate.  Just trying to do my bit to support Chia. The team is @bramcohen and @ryan_singer . Although I think if everyone tries their bit we can all help in some way.
1706[bramcohen 65d] The other people on the team are @richardkiss and @alexwice
1707[knopik 65d] @bramcohen Hard to seperate the signal from the noise given how much nonsense whitepapers there are nowadays. Curious if there are any whitepapers you think are worthy of reading? Or maybe more broadly if there are any particular thought leaders worth reading/following? thanks!
1708[bramcohen 65d] @knopik Zcash has been doing some good technology work. Andrew Miller has come up with some interesting smart transaction stuff. Lots of good work comingo ut of Lightning Network. The vast majority of new blockchains are just bullshit
1709[hodlmyballs 65d] Can't believe Raiblocks is number 19 on coinmarketcap
1710[hodlmyballs 65d] almost 20 bucks a coin
1711[ninjasoup 65d] Entirely on two small-name exchanges
1712[ninjasoup 65d] Should be interesting to see what happens to it when it actually goes somewhere else
1713[hodlmyballs 65d] good chance it will fomo, also good chance it will crash
1714[hodlmyballs 65d] because the oldies will take profit
1715[bramcohen 64d] Apparently internationalization is working https://twitter.com/GaetanDeMunter/status/947481880533839872
1716[dkackman 64d] 😊
1717[t3hpwn 64d] Happy New Year Chia
1718[bramcohen 64d] These articles should be on the news page but aren't: http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/bittorrent-inventor-holds-key-greener-less-centralised-cryptocurrency-mining-1647724
1719[bramcohen 64d] http://www.ibtimes.com/bitcoin-veteran-bittorrent-creator-makes-eco-friendly-cryptocurrency-2612826
1720[bramcohen 64d] Also the front page is formatted a little funny when full screened on my computer now
1721[ryan_singer 64d] Happy New Year everyone!
1722[bramcohen 64d] We in California are always wishing a happy new year after it's already finished for everybody else
1723[ryan_singer 64d] Lol
1724[cyptogeek 64d] Love the news page. Front page needs formating so that it looks better on desktop. Mobile looks good. Maybe put the (capital letter for Green) "green money for a digital world" on one row at the top. Smaller text under the first row rather than having two columns. Maybe make tge images hover so that a snippet of information for the heart, network and security otherwise replace with something a little more specific to Chia
1725[cyptogeek 64d] Put the images in context or remove them imo. Filecoin is a good example. I know specifics are not complete, but could a graphic artist produce images for what @bramcohen has produced so far. Hard drive that resembles a farm crop, similar coins coming out, seeds being farmed etc
1726[cyptogeek 64d] Quick bodge up, but you get what I mean. Maybe use the farming, proofs and seeding images seperately. Providing additiional info on click. Just an idea. Ignore if it's not relevant
1727[dkackman 64d] Layout issue looks like mine from moving text into translation file. I'll push a fix
1728[cyptogeek 64d] @bramcohen What do you think of Charlie Lee stepping back in order to improve decentralization and do you think founders having a hands off stance when the coin is established is a necessity to accomplish non conflict of interest?
1729[knopik 64d] @cryptogeek why would ownership bet a conflict? Ownership typically aligns interests; that’s what executives typically get rewarded with restricted stock units that vest over time. Maybe a similar time element should be involved in crypto space to remove incentive for founders to “pump and dump”, which can be argued is what Charlie Lee did!
1730[cyptogeek 64d] @knopik I agree completely with you. My main confusion is though, would a founder staying and influencing the coin via Twitter,  interviews etc (after large scale adoption and established market cap) lead to centralization as Charlie Lee portrays or not? People talk about needing skin in the game, but this is another conversation all together. Just wondering if founders influence leads to centralization?
1731[zapu 64d] he could have stepped away or kept it low, without dumping all his coins
1732[zapu 64d] for me it was a message that the price/value is inflated and he wanted to cash out. but I'm just a casual spectator
1733[knopik 64d] @cryptogeek good point. I think some of that centralization is psychological stemming from social proof by society ascribing more value to views of the creator (think Charlie Lee, Buterin). But ultimately I think over time ideas should sink or swim on their own merits, rather than on the stature of the names behind those ideas.
1734[zapu 64d] "Satoshi Vision" is still haunting technical discussions though
1735[knopik 64d] sure, but that’s not necessarily in and of itself a bad thing. There still is meritocracy and the open market can “vote” on winning ideas by adopting them or, conversely, sticking with incumbent solutions...or both for that matter, as different schools of thought aren’t necessarily mutually exclusive
1736[mreden82 64d] hi all I'm still new to cryprocurrency but fimiliar with bittorrent and I am excited to get in on the ground of Chia, I'm just not exactly sure on how this will work
1737[mreden82 64d] How can I help to invest in this
1738[mreden82 64d] will this be a minable coin?
1739[usern4me401 64d] Mreden82, it will be "farmable" yes.  They prefer to use the term farming over mining because chia is uses much less electricity thus better for the environment.
1740[usern4me401 64d] https://chia.network/faq/
1741[beanieguyy 64d] So, this could be a dumb question because I'm a noob. The only mining experience I have was trying the one-click miner for Vertcoin. In farming for Chia, will this only be possible with internal hard drives?
1742[usern4me401 64d] Currently it's believed that external harddrives will work too, as far as I know, but it's possible that tape drives will be to slow to work.  This is based off my experiance with Burst coin.
1743[usern4me401 64d] Keep in mind I don't work on the Chia project.  I've just been following it for a while.
1744[ezredd 64d] Happy new year everyone! Sorry for the stupid remark but on the website all the references to "next year" should be updated to "this year" or "2018"!!
1745[cyptogeek 64d] @ezredd Good call. Happy new year
1746[siddygups 63d] hi all!
1747[siddygups 63d] I have been following chia for a little while now but are there any hard dates for release?  I haven't seen any updates in a while.
1748[ryan_singer 63d] No hard dates to announce yet. We're still hoping for a public sale in Q2 and a Network launch near year end, but those dates remain subject to change.
1749[hodlmyballs 63d] I'm looking forward this project. I predict a chain death for bitcoin. There are like five hardforks for bitcoin scheduled
1750[hodlmyballs 63d] and a plethora of shitcoins that will launch of course
1751[cyptogeek 63d] @hodlmyballs when Lightning network is released many alt coins will be phased out to the garbage heap as their benefits are superceded by the performance of the sidechains.
1752[reedallred 63d] @bramcohen Do you have a public number of how much you will be raising for the seed round?
1753[bramcohen 63d] @reedallred The seed round is already closed
1754[reedallred 63d] Is it public?
1755[bramcohen 63d] no
1756[reedallred 63d] :+1:
1757[ninjasoup 63d] How many devs do you guys have working with you right now, or are you still overall in the hiring phase?
1758[miiirek 63d] Happy New Year. Can't wait to test Chia
1759[cyptogeek 63d] The team is an awsome bunch of brains. @bramcohen  , @ryan_singer  , @richardkiss and @alexwice
1760[cyptogeek 63d] Positions can be applied for via the Jobs section https://chia.network/#jobs
1761[miiirek 63d] Would you like Polish translation for the Chia website? I can help
1762[cyptogeek 63d] @miirek Please check out the Chia github.
1763[ryan_singer 63d] @ashadle just joined Chia as our Director of Ops; she's also a web dev so y'all will see her active on the github :-)
1764[qball 63d] Was the seeding round successful? As in, enough raised to bring Chia to fruition. Just curious
1765[ryan_singer 63d] The seed round should get announced soon; we raised enough to get us to the public offering while still doing core dev work.
1766[zapu 63d] Congratulations!
1767[qball 63d] Yes, congrats - good to know
1768[cyptogeek 63d] Fantastic. Well done guys!
1769[cyptogeek 63d] Could you add the team to your home page? @ashadle addition comment will get lost in the keybase stream.
1770[ryan_singer 63d] @cyptogeek : Good idea.
1771[alfonsopereze 62d] Congrats guys!
1772[hodlmyballs 62d] Gonna save some my pennies
1773[hodlmyballs 62d] Thanks for not making another shitcoin with a stupid white paper :) It means a lot
1774[hodlmyballs 62d] I'll keep spreading the Chia gospel and spreading FUD about Iota and Eos and Raiblocks
1775[roypd 62d] Exciting news. Congrats!
1776[rukuiza 62d] :wave:
1777[rukuiza 62d] Hi there, i am looking for potential cooperation with chia. Our startup project (provoco.me) will use video streaming and storage. Please get in touch
1778[usern4me401 62d] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJzLsyJmu9E  It looks like pretty much all Intel processors have a hardware based bug that requires a major operating system rewrite to fix, and that the fix will slow down your intel based computer.  Sounds like an extremely serious security issue.   Heads up...
1779[bramcohen 62d] @usern4me401 Thankfully that one doesn't involve any remote exploits
1780[hodlmyballs 62d] Do you guys predict a crypto crash soon?
1781[hodlmyballs 62d] I feel weird seeing ripple as number 2 lol
1782[bramcohen 62d] It sure seems like that there will be a crash, but predicting bubble pops is always a fool's errand
1783[psutter 62d] bitcoin, crashing since 2010 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbZ8zDpX2Mg
1784[hodlmyballs 62d] nice
1785[psutter 62d] the internet crash of 2000 was great. all the tourists went home, and the big fortunes were created later
1786[psutter 62d] the most important lesson of the 2000 crash, is that the late 1990s were filled with confident stories about how the Internet would change everything. but Facebook didnt happen until 2004, Uber didnt happen until 2010, etc. Crypto could follow the same pattern. Most of the actual traction and adoption may come well after a major crash.
1787[psutter 62d] (netting it out - when the big crash comes, thats exactly the moment to keep heads-down, and keep developing)
1788[bramcohen 62d] That's my plan
1789[bramcohen 62d] I started BitTorrent in 2001
1790[hodlmyballs 62d] You've convinced me to invest 25% of my stack in Chia
1791[hodlmyballs 62d] good post psutter
1792[hodlmyballs 62d] You've convinced me to invest 25%!o(MISSING)f my stack in Chia
1793[hodlmyballs 62d] well you among other things and people
1794[hodlmyballs 62d] I would say Chia and Maidsafe are the most interesting projects out there
1795[psutter 62d] yes - Chia is about solving long-term problems, based on as much battle-proven code as possible. Less glitz/glam than some of the others, but solid foundations
1796[psutter 62d] one big difference with the dotcom bubble - nobody ever hoped that Pets.com could crash so that they could buy more
1797[knopik 62d] @psutter I agree. To put a finer point on it you are describing a classical hype cycle:
1798[knopik 62d] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hype_cycle
1799[knopik 62d] @bramcohen I’ve always wondered if “BitTorrent” was the basis for the “BitCoin” name.
1800[bramcohen 62d] @knopik I dunno, ask Satoshi
1801[hodlmyballs 61d] Some people in discord are saying Bit Gold was the precursor to bitcoin but apparently Szabo never launched the coin in 1998
1802[hodlmyballs 61d] Apparently he didn't want a centralized authority to fix the double spending problem
1803[hodlmyballs 61d] When attempting to design transactions with a digital coin, you run into the "double-spending problem." Once data have been created, reproducing them is a simple matter of copying and pasting. Most digital currencies solve the problem by relinquishing some control to a central authority, which keeps track of each account’s balance. This was an unacceptable solution for Szabo. "I was trying to mimic as closely as possible in cyberspace the security and trust characteristics of gold, and chief among those is that it doesn’t depend on a trusted central authority," he said.[11]
1804[hodlmyballs 61d] http://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/software/bitcoin-the-cryptoanarchists-answer-to-cash
1805[curiousg 61d] @bramcohen: Re last comment - I think @knopik  thought he was asking Satoshi :)
1806[knopik 61d] @curiousg pretty much! Bittorrent was quite a remarkable  and transformative invention. Kinda amazing to be able to converse wtih Bram if you think about.
1807[bramcohen 61d] Did an update to MerkleSets today. Improved the crypto a bit and cleaned it up some https://github.com/bramcohen/MerkleSet
1808[saitouyosuke 61d] hi , I joined here now. waiting ICO infomation. cheers
1809[hodlmyballs 61d] Q2 2018
1810[rukuiza 61d] Chia vs Sia? https://sia.tech
1811[zapu 61d] chia is not file storage, chia merely "seeds" your free disk space with data that makes finding blocks more likely
1812[zapu 61d] but it's not any data, you will not be taking someone elses data to store and get money for it
1813[rukuiza 61d] not sure i understand
1814[nurazhar 61d] chia use hardisk to "mine" not cpu/gpu/asic
1815[nurazhar 61d] it is trying to fix bitcoin centralization problem due to mining
1816[nurazhar 61d] and almost all other coins, not sure if there will be farming pool
1817[nurazhar 61d] i dont understand how using hardisk can generate hashes/AES to secure the network
1818[nurazhar 61d] though
1819[namyamai 61d] Can we collaborate with sia to farm using other people's hard drives :D
1820[usern4me401 61d] Nurazhar, there is actually already a coin that does just that.  Burstcoin:
1821[usern4me401 61d] namyamai I believe that the file transfer rate would be to slow, but I could be wrong.
1822[rukuiza 61d] Sia is already working project
1823[rukuiza 61d] Chia is still under development
1824[rukuiza 61d] their idea is the same
1825[rukuiza 61d] as far as i understand
1826[ohanesian 61d] @rukuiza Sia is building decentralized cloud storage. Chia is just using empty disk space as a means for blockchain security. There's no cloud storage element to Chia.
1827[nurazhar 61d] well tech alone doesnt determine the "success" or adoption of a project
1828[cyptogeek 61d] @namyamai The two crypto's do completely different things. It's like asking why can't Bitcoin and Ethereum combine. They both do different things. One is a currency, the other is for smart contracts. Sidechains allow for Bitcoin to carry out smart contracts, but the benefit of Chia is that it is incredibly decentralized as anyone with a harddrive can be part of a network. The problem  with hosting based crypto's is that good bandwidth is required, meaning if you don't have great bandwidth you cannot be part of tge network. This would lead to centralization
1829[lemonforest 61d] I think maybe what @namyamai was asking and @rukuiza was trying to address is currently only a speculative yes and no answer; Sia claims that 1TB storage would cost around $2 monthly, siadrive looks like it mounts like a network drive (such that it doesn't use local storage to access much like KBFS/SMB/Samba/NFS and not like Dropbox/OneDrive[file on-demand still uses local storage]) -- so I think it comes down to _Will chia use file-level or block-level seeding_. current state of dev and/or released info doesn't tell us how chia will utilize storage space without consuming st
1830orage space.
1831That said, the last I read(techcrunch), full lauch is still slated for end of 2018 (at least a year away from mainnet stable release) and all of this _what if this/that_ makes my heart break for how I see it confusing people so if this is even more confusing, my heart aches for what I've done to you too. stick to chia.network/faq :)
1832[namyamai 61d] Thank you guys for the clarification . I'm off to study about block-level vs file-level. Nfs vs San as far as I know before diving in.
1833[ohanesian 61d] @bramcohen @richardkiss I'd like to fix the responsive issues on the Chia website. Can I refactor the whole site so that it uses Bootstrap? It would clean up the code a lot, provide a better responsive design, and make it more maintainable.
1834[memorysaver 61d] Hey guys, I’ll help to look into the Chia Chinese translation. I wish I can contribute this community at least by this way.
1835[bramcohen 61d] @ohanesian We'll likely accept a pull request for that if it merges cleanly, is just a refactor, and doesn't break translations
1836[ashadle 61d] @memorysaver that sounds awesome!
1837[thomasalvord 61d] @ryan_singer I'm assuming the anticipated Q2 public sale will be for accredited investors only? If so, is there a list interested parties can get on, or would it be open to any accredited investor in the public?
1838[ryan_singer 61d] @thomasalvord it's our hope that the public sale will be open to the public more broadly. We'll post the details to the announcement list as soon as they are ready, and I'll be available to discuss them here.
1839[thomasalvord 61d] Sounds good. Thanks.
1840[tangtd666 61d] I looked deeper into sia vs chia. It doesn't seem that sia coins need to be mined or farmed. The total amount of sia coins were offered when initiated. Also Sia blockchain is based on cloud storage and chia will also be based off hard drive straoge. What else major am I missing between the two? Thanks. Sorry for some dumb questions since I am kind of a newbie in crypto.
1841[hodlmyballs 61d] Sia is a cloud storage platform
1842[hodlmyballs 61d] Chia is a cryptocurrency
1843[hodlmyballs 61d] Sia uses hard drive storage to store users information. So if you "farm Sia" essentially you are getting paid in Sia to give storage space to random people to store their porn, documents, photos on your hard drive
1844[hodlmyballs 61d] Chia uses hard drive space to sign and verify transactions similar to bitcoin except bitcoin uses more electricity than the entire country of denmark with proof of work consensus, aka mining
1845[hodlmyballs 61d] Chia will not use this method
1846[cyptogeek 61d] @hodlmyballs and to add, as Bitcoin  adoption grows the amount of electricity wastage will become an even greater problem.
1847[hodlmyballs 61d] BTC dominance is at its lowest in years now lol
1848[hodlmyballs 61d] Noobs are buying anything under a dollar
1849[hodlmyballs 61d] even if there is like 50 billion in circulation
1850[zapu 61d] dominance is at its lowest? I don't understand
1851[cyptogeek 61d] Btc dominance is 35%, that's a massive shrinkage
1852[cyptogeek 61d] @zapu btc market cap has reduced
1853[cyptogeek 61d] Btc dominance is 35%!,(MISSING) that's a massive shrinkage
1854[zapu 61d] does this even mean anything? there are more players in the field and more people are trying to buy in
1855[cyptogeek 61d] Have you heard about Atomic swaps between ltc and btc being only months away. Looking forward to Chia being added to the swaps
1856[zapu 61d] more than there have ever been, couple years ago no one cared about crypto at all
1857[zapu 61d] oh I need to read about these swaps
1858[zapu 61d] I've heard about this a while ago but never found time to learn about that
1859[cyptogeek 61d] Atomic swaps Bypasses exchanges and all the regulations that surround them
1860[tangtd666 61d] Atomic swaps means that LTC will take over BTC?
1861[cyptogeek 61d] @tangtd666 till Chia enters. Then LTC will be replaced by less wasteful crypto
1862[cyptogeek 61d] But I agree. LTC will replace BTC in the short term I think. The fees alone will be incentive enough
1863[zapu 61d] why? why would you make these predictions?
1864[cyptogeek 61d] LTC to BTC atomic swaps will mean you can send money cheaply. If you want to send your BTC somewhere and you can send it using LTC with much cheaper fees. It's a no brainer. Depends on the amount of security you need. Buying a car I'd probably stock to BTC for the additiondl security snd do it onchain.
1865[hodlmyballs 61d] BTC dominance means that more people are buying alt coins
1866[hodlmyballs 61d] so bitcoin adoption is shrinking not growing
1867[hodlmyballs 61d] crypto adoption is growing, just not bitcoin
1868[cyptogeek 61d] @hodlmyballs very true. Shame people are putting it into rubbish coins.
1869[hodlmyballs 61d] yeah if I bought ripple two months ago I'd have 100kusd lol
1870[hodlmyballs 61d] but I didn't think it would rise because the accountant in me said, how the hell would this rise, there are like 30 billion in circ and a ton in escrow?
1871[hodlmyballs 61d] but the markets are not rational
1872[clemens1992 61d] When will chia be launched abd where will it be accessable on binance?
1873[hodlmyballs 61d] Chia is still in devlopment, so the devs say the end of 2018 for the official launch
1874[cyptogeek 61d] @clemens1992 You'll be able to buy Q2 this year. Sign up to announcements for precice launch date
1875[ashadle 61d] @clemens1992 We're hoping for a public sale in Q2 and a Network launch near year end, but those dates remain subject to change.  You can join the annoucements group here https://groups.google.com/a/chia.network/forum/#!forum/announce
1876[tangtd666 61d] I can't wait to get some chia.
1877[namyamai 60d] Any idea if people in New York will be able to participate in the public sale ?
1878[ryan_singer 60d] I hope so!
1879[ryan_singer 60d] We'll annnounce the specifics once the lawyers and regulators have signed off
1880[hodlmyballs 60d] I don't see why not
1881[hodlmyballs 60d] I'm in New York and I can buy crypto
1882[nickolauswithak 60d] @ryan_singer Do you know what exchanges chia will drop on?
1883[ryan_singer 60d] @nickolauswithak no clue. Hopefully the good ones
1884[nickolauswithak 60d] @ryan_singer In your expertise, what would you consider the good ones ☺
1885[ryan_singer 60d] @nickolauswithak NASDAQ  😉
1886[nickolauswithak 60d] Oh damn 😂😂
1887[hodlmyballs 60d] Bittrex is what I use to buy alt coins
1888[hodlmyballs 60d] They are like the only exchange for alts that can operate legally wtih New York State residents
1889[nickolauswithak 60d] Oh really i heard bittrex isnt accepting new members right now
1890[ryan_singer 60d] I'm hoping that we'll be able to work with the more liquid exchanges like GDAX and Gemini
1891[nickolauswithak 60d] Thats really cool!!
1892[ryan_singer 60d] I'm a big fan of Gemini's end of day auctions for BTC and ETH
1893[ryan_singer 60d] https://gemini.com/auction-data/
1894[the_umich_hodler 60d] hi @bramcohen  i just graduated from Stuy last semester!!!!
1895[bramcohen 60d] Go peglegs!
1896[7amoodiya 60d] Gdax does not exchange internationally
1897That's one of my concerns when cryptos are launched
1898I would really hope I'll be able to access chia from outside the US and European boundaries
1899[7amoodiya 60d] If there is an exchange that supports international trading then wouldn't it be more beneficial to work with them?
1900[keeganead 60d] Seems like most exchanges really leave something to be desired. Overly complicated. Or regulated.  wesellcrypto was great but even they were undersupplied.
1901[7amoodiya 60d] And the fees for international exchange  is alot
1902[namyamai 60d] @ryan_singer what would be required to be listed on a exchange like OTCM, NYSE  or NASDAQ. :D
1903[ryan_singer 60d] @namyamai ; I'm working on it. I'll let you know.
1904[brianzisk 60d]
1905[debek 60d] @ryan_singer Can You give Us signal about market before presale starting? Because probably we will need register and verification first.
1906[harangutang 60d] @ryan_singer regarding exchanges, how about Goldman Sachs? https://techcrunch.com/2017/12/21/goldman-bitcoin-crypto-trading/
1907[ezredd 60d] GS is not an exchange...
1908[larremy 60d] It's too premature to think about listing on an exchange. Shouldn't the focus be on delivering a working product and rasing capitial via an ICO/SAFT or private placements?
1909[ryan_singer 60d] We'll announce everything here as soon as the details are ready to announce.
1910[harangutang 60d] @ezredd I wonder if that’s a service they would provide and what their entry means for crypto. It’s interesting to see GS getting involved.
1911[hodlmyballs 60d] GS provides crypto trading to their private clients not the public
1912[hodlmyballs 60d] So chances are these are only corporate accounts or high net worth individuals
1913[ezredd 60d] GS is currently a broker/dealer for crypto
1914[ezredd 60d] @hodlmyballs is that something you know or something you guess ?
1915[ryan_singer 60d] GS has announced that they will now provide crypto dealing for existing clients. Generally, though, they'll only accept clients with large (over $25m) amounts to manage.
1916[hodlmyballs 60d] ezredd Goldman Sachs doesn't even have a retail banking division. They don't care about our pennies.
1917[ryan_singer 60d] https://www.marcus.com/us/en
1918[ryan_singer 60d] GS's retail banking division
1919[hodlmyballs 60d] I guess yeah that counts, But it's just personal loans and savings accounts. When I think retail I think home mortgages, checking accounts, credit cards
1920[cyptogeek 60d] I know ICO's are under regulatory scrutinty, but they are a great way of maximising investors. I have my fingers crossed Chia creates a loyal community of investors by encouraging accessible investment. The broader the investors, the greater the long term following and exposure.
1921[ohanesian 60d] @ashadle Did you roll back my Bootstrap pull request on the Chia site? Anything I should fix?
1922[ashadle 60d] @ohanesian yeah I reverted the changes because it changed the padding between elements and sections when the site wasn't responsive
1923[nickolauswithak 60d] I wonder how many coins are going to be released when chia goes on the market
1924[coder472 59d] Yeah
1925[windowsnt 59d] probably an integer number. I hope that narrows it down by an infinite amount.
1926[ryan_singer 59d] lol
1927We'll announce as soon as the lawyers and regulators have signed off on a plan
1928[ryan_singer 59d] I can confirm that the amount released may or may not be an integer number. It will almost definitely be more than zero
1929[nickolauswithak 59d] Sweet cant wait!!
1930[windowsnt 59d] ryan, does this crypto currency use succinct data structures?
1931[ryan_singer 59d] technical questions are better addressed to @bramcohen
1932[windowsnt 59d] @bramcohen What he said^
1933[bramcohen 59d] The blockchain format will be better designed than Bitcoin :-P
1934[windowsnt 59d] Yay!
1935[tangtd666 59d] I am thinking of sellinig my house for Chia. What do you guys think?
1936[windowsnt 59d] How'd you even get a house in the first place?
1937[tangtd666 59d] I only said it because I don't even have a house. You got me.
1938[windowsnt 59d] Need a roommate? I know a guy who needs one
1939[tangtd666 59d] I got plenty on the street. I know it is sad.
1940[windowsnt 59d] :(
1941[memorysaver 59d] Hey guys, I am working on the Chinese translation now. It should be available in day or two.
1942[memorysaver 59d] However, I don't quite understand the following explanation in FAQ part.
1943"There will likely be a minimum allocation size of 100 GB or 1 TB or so. It isn't so much to enforce a minimum as to require a minimum amount of wall clock time to pass before an allocation can be done so attackers can't repeatedly generate and try new allocations instead of doing a single lookup."
1944[memorysaver 59d] It sounds like minimum allocation is not important for some reason due to no matter how small the allocation is, the attackers have no chance to complete an attack without lookup the proof of space ?
1945[memorysaver 59d] I am sorry that I don't quite undertand the technique behind the scene to translate this. Is anyone can help me to have a better understanding ?
1946[cyptogeek 59d] @memorysaver I agree this is a little complex and could do with explanation to simplify. A minimum wallclock time is required to pass before an allocation (allocation what?).Why is a single allocation advantageous. If @bramcohen can clarify this section I'll update the FAQ
1947[memorysaver 59d] I think that FAQ is quite important for crypto investor, I just want to ensure I can make the translation well to deliver the message !
1948[memorysaver 59d] My suggestion is to leave some complex part in English, and I'll keep following your updates.
1949[cyptogeek 59d] @memorysaver I completely agree with you. I think what we're doing is making the technology transparent by answering all the common questions in a accessable way. I, like you want to see Chia succeed and I see our contributions taking some of the pressures off the team so they can get on with advancing the Chia project.
1950[memorysaver 59d] you ebt
1951[psutter 59d] memorysaver -  the allocation is pregenerated in advance, and during farming, a lookup is performed within the generated data to check for a new coin. (I BELIEVE THAT) if the allocation were very small, it could be generated at lookup time, eliminating the need to store the data at all, which would break chia
1952[psutter 59d] even in the english faq, might expand on this more, it's an interesting point (and I am only inferring the explanation)
1953[lemonforest 59d] ^This @psutter comment [*speculation*].  •Pre-caching/seeding vs compute all the time every node project goal [reduce network power consumption].  •Min alloc may also prevent use of multiple compressed virtual disk images for hw that doesn't really exist and/or gather enough hw signature info to prevent seed/fdisk/rinse/repeat [anti-cheat].
1954[hoffmang 59d] To become relevant to Chia after launch - https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2394024
1955[cyptogeek 59d] Thanks @psutter and @lemonforest . I'll wait for @bramcohen's confirmation of your points and if he has any additional details to add before I add to FAQ.
1956[bramcohen 59d] Yes @psutter is correct. The concern is about being able to generate proofs on an as-needed basis, which would got back to using electricity as the bottleneck. With larger plots it takes a while to generate the proofs, so there's no point because by the time you finish the on-demand plot generation someone else will already by well into their subsequent proof of time
1957[bramcohen 59d] 'wall clock time' means real time passing, at a rate of one second per second
1958[cyptogeek 59d] Thanks @bramcohen "someone else will already be well into their subsequent proof of time" so what you're saying here is that if the plot is not large enough, seeding and farming can occur too quickly allowing plots to be rewritten on the same hard drive before the next proof of time. So therefore using an analogy: Someone can spend their money (space) on the lottery tickets (seeds) so that they have a chance of winning a Chia payout. If the space used for seeding is too small it allows the person partaking in the lottery (farming) to wait for results (payout), then put their ha
1959nds back into the cashiers register, taking back the money (space) spent and buying another set of tickets (reseeding the same space) to take part in the next lottery game?
1960[bramcohen 59d] @cyptogeek Yeah they can re-plot over and over again and keep getting more chances to win if the time to plot is too short. In the extrema a plot of size one is just another hash function for a PoW
1961[cyptogeek 59d] Great. Thanks @bramcohen
1962[hoffmang 59d] It has been a long time since I used source control, but pull request for FAQ clean up submitted...
1963[psutter 59d] speaking of proof of time, could netwok latency be used for proof of time? @bramcohen
1964[bramcohen 58d] No network latency doesn't generate any proof which can be verified later
1965[psutter 58d] i thought maybe using a calculcation among global nodes, based on private keys somehow...
1966[psutter 58d] it would be like a glacially slow computer
1967[psutter 58d] even a 100usec delay on a LAN is less compute intensive than a loop, and of course many nodes would be 100ms apart
1968[lemonforest 58d] Depending on the logged resolution, I'd have only guessed it to be useful for entropy. Maybe some years in the future, when it actually works like we expect more frequently, entangled qubits could be outside actor verifiable.
1969[memorysaver 58d] @psutter @bramcohen @cyptogeek thanks for all of your clarification.
1970[izel 58d] @bramcohen what Chia's roadmap look like, any tips when chia will be released ?
1971[7amoodiya 58d] @izel have a look at faq chia.network/faq
1972[ecoin 58d] Hi all, the Proof ot Time thing seems to be the real deal here, I've read that there is a paper soon to be published, but I am curious at this point if it will solve the problem with Rivest Puzzles that you have to trust that the party that generates the challenge does not disclose the solution or the factors used in its generation, that are anyway needed for fast verification once the puzzle is solved. If so, It will be a big breakthrough in that field, if not you will have a lot of trouble to come with a solid decentralized solution for the PoT generation.
1973[sukima 58d] I just need to know when to start farming so I can avoid another missed oppertunity like I did with Bitcoin.
1974[cyptogeek 58d] Sign up to announcements, buy in is Q2 this year. Chia should be available to buy and farm late part of 2018
1975[nurazhar 58d] hopefully chia doesn't turn out to be "tezos"
1976[sukima 58d] Or BCH were the lead guy turns out to be a complete jerk and lies
1977[cyptogeek 58d] ICO regulations are hitting Tezos hard for securities fraud. This fund raising is a minfield. I'm sure the Chia team are looking at all the options and will choose the best option to keep both regulators and investors happy.
1978[roveminder 57d] Hello everyone, Chia is really promise. I have yet to get my head around the proof of time.. Thank you @bramcohen for trying to do better with what is given.
1979[cyptogeek 57d] Proof of time prevents a Genesis attack where the blockchain is restored to a time in the past, thereby removing all trace of Chia transactions after this time. This is why Burstcoin fails against this potential hack
1980[kaeteker 57d] Why hasn't burstcoin been busted yet? Not worth it?
1981[roveminder 57d] Thank you @cyptogeek
1982[roveminder 57d] I still need to understand the whole technical part.
1983[cyptogeek 57d] I think it's a theoretical possibility.  A bit like Bitcoin's 51% attack. Would you trust something knowing there was a chance of a Genesis attack. I wouldn't.
1984[usern4me401 57d] But we still have burst coin?  I keep hearing about this genesis attack, but still haven't seen burst coin fail because of a genesis attack.
1985[cyptogeek 57d] I think it's a theoretical possibility.  A bit like Bitcoin's 51%!a(MISSING)ttack. Would you trust something knowing there was a chance of a Genesis attack. I wouldn't.
1986[hoffmang 57d] It's likely that the reward to attacking Burstcoin is too low. The goal of course here is to have a network of high value worth a genesis attack
1987[bramcohen 57d] @ecoin The known construction has a one-time trusted setup which can be done multiparty where you only need to trust one of the participants. We're planning on doing it right with multiple implementations, lots of participants, and extending it over multiple sessions
1988[cyptogeek 57d] Will this be made transparent as to number and details of participants so as calm any FUD.  I guess the more participants, the less risk.
1989[bramcohen 57d] The idea is to be as open and transparent as possible
1990[bramcohen 57d] Not sure what you're proposing. We're going to be doing a setup ceremony for the proof of time prior to network launch
1991[cyptogeek 57d] Just an idea for funding. Would it be possible to premine the equivalent of Bitcoin ( calling it Chia), then when POT has been developed, hard fork the busted POS version for the POST version or hardfork a compatible coin over to Chia. It would be like an ICO except there would be no regulatory issues to deal with. Therefore those with the fundraising version of Chia get hardforked to the POST version?
1992[cyptogeek 57d] I mean to raise money Q2 this year, rather than having to worry about a regulated ICO, could you not launch a temporary workaround. A fork of Bitcoin that is called Chia that gets hardforked at the end of this year when POST version of Chia is ready.
1993[cyptogeek 57d] You've gone through every option I'm sure. This idea is probably a bit silly. Just thought I'd verbalise it anyway
1994[zapu 57d] I think this adds tons of complexity and not sure what the benefit it, but interesting idea nonetheless
1995[zapu 57d] as an ICO before the coin is ready
1996[cyptogeek 57d] @zapu It's not an ICO if investors are buying a real coin. It's an investment that has a planned hardfork. So initially it's just a copy of Bitcoin, but allows investors to buy up as many as many as they want. Initial chia offering finds it's own market value, bam....millions to get Chia to POST moon
1997[cyptogeek 57d] The only hurdle is 1. Bram using his genius to deliver something that can be hardforked to the a POST version of Chia
1998 2. Exchanges that will accept Initial Chia coins. This will take some PR and marketing. Exchanges are already crumbling under the current weight. (Maybe create your own exchange? to accept just Ethereum, Litecoin and Bitcoin in exchange of Chia) Possibly run this from outside the US (to a pro crypto country).
1999[keeganead 57d] Is there a comparison of energy usage of chia, or proof of space, to something like processing credit card transactions?
2000[cyptogeek 57d] @keeganead Thats like comparing the energy usage of one EPOS machine linked to a singular bank  to millions of banks owned by millions of people. Theoretically you are the holder of your own money with cryptocurrency, so you hold the keys to your own digital bank. I don't see how the two can be reasonably compared.
2001[keeganead 57d] Watt-hours per transaction, probably.
2002[cyptogeek 57d] Centralized singular transaction compared to a decentralized singular transaction. What do you include in this calculation? The fuel used to heat the bank, the energy to run the bank servers. I just don't think the two can be compared.
2003[thomasalvord 56d] @bramcohen
20041. From your perspective, what is the likelihood of lightening network coming to fruition as planned/hoped?
20052. Do you view Chia more as a store of value, or currency, or both?
2006[ryan_singer 56d] I'm not @bramcohen , but I'll take a stab:
20071. We are working closely with the Lightning Labs team, and hope to support Lightning Network on Chia at launch. We are confident this is achievable.
20082. We hope that people see value in Chia transactionally every day
2009[ryan_singer 56d] https://twitter.com/FortWorth_SEC/status/950397035714371584
2010[bramcohen 56d] @cyptogeek Current plans are for returns from the presale to be written into the genesis block and not particularly tradeable up until that point
2011[hoffmang 56d] lol @ryan_singer 's link
2012[ryan_singer 56d] :sunglasses:
2013[7amoodiya 56d] The other topic would be the wallet that can store chia
2014Maybe a chia wallet would be made by the creators themselves
2015[hoffmang 56d] Chia will be close enough to bitcoin that running a node or farming will look very similar to bitcoin core from a software and sysadmin point of view (except for the storage allocation of course)
2016[ryan_singer 56d] 👍
2017[dreddwolf 56d] How does chia differ from digibyte?
2018[hoffmang 56d] It looks like DigiByte decided to mash together multiple GPU/CPU PoW schemes which means it would still consume large amounts electricity and drive towards ASICs should it scale up
2019[bunchofatoms 56d] will people from Europe be able to buy Chia in the Q2 public sale?
2020[poson 56d] Hi
2021[7amoodiya 56d] @bunchofatoms I think it will be done internationally you can ryansinger for more info
2022[nurazhar 56d] if i understand correctly bitcoin is gold chia wants to be US dollar or maybe CHF (7 presidents - decentralized)
2023[nurazhar 56d] so i guess chia price does not suppose to go up
2024[nurazhar 56d] unless fiat money loose value
2025[debek 56d] I think that it is impossoble to said how much will cost Chia. Peoples on markets determine price of coin so Chia can cost even 100$
2026[debek 56d] Or 5$ :)
2027[honohanf 56d] Hey guys, Software Engineer from Ireland here. Very interested in the project. Is it going to ICO or will it be fairly farmable from Day 0?
2028[lvcivs 56d] A critical vulnerability was found in the Electrum wallet, users should upgrade to 3.0.5 asap. more info: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2702103.0
2029[cyptogeek 56d] @honohanf It will be a regulated fund raise Q2 this year. No standard ICO . I don't know what fund raising options Chia team will choose. Farmable late 2018 when Chia is launched. Check out FAQ for more info https://chia.network/faq/
2030[cyptogeek 56d] @lvcivs with Electrum and CPU problems you need a hardware wallet for definite
2031[cyptogeek 56d] @nurazhar price will be determined by the market. If you've checked top 10 on  coinmarketcap.com there's inflated prices all over the place. Crazy. Who knows how much Chia could be. Could be cents or dollars. Noone can predict with certainty.
2032[cyptogeek 56d] @bramcohen I read somewhere to get a coin say Chia on Ledger Nano it costs between $50k -$100k. Would this be something that you'd want to sort out for launch date, or would you prefer to wait for market pressures to push Ledger adoption?
2033[igny 56d] Hi all, I don't understand 100% the difference between ICO and a regulated fund raise. I mean, I understand that in an ICO the price of the coin would be pre-fixed, but in the case of a regulated fund raise, what would happen? Will the coins be offered by the chia team and people interested will make offers to buy them, and so the one that offers more money, will be able to buy the coin? Once the coins are in circulation, I can understand the dynamics of selling/buying and how the price evolves, but not at the first stage..
2034[ryan_singer 56d] We know the ledger guys, and we'll be very interested in working with them once our BLS wallet code is production-ready
2035[igny 56d] Hi all, I don't understand 100%!t(MISSING)he difference between ICO and a regulated fund raise. I mean, I understand that in an ICO the price of the coin would be pre-fixed, but in the case of a regulated fund raise, what would happen? Will the coins be offered by the chia team and people interested will make offers to buy them, and so the one that offers more money, will be able to buy the coin? Once the coins are in circulation, I can understand the dynamics of selling/buying and how the price evolves, but not at the first stage..
2036[honohanf 56d] @ryan_singer Are you working for chia? If so can you tell me why chia would be working with Lightning Networks?
2037[ryan_singer 56d] I'm a co-founder of Chia. We intend to support lightning on Chia at Network launch.
2038[dreddwolf 56d] @hoffmang What will be the max supply of coins for chia?
2039[hoffmang 56d] my understanding is that there will be a fixed amount of coins issued to miners each year. So each year the coins issued as a percent of the total continues to fall
2040[ryan_singer 56d] @dreddwolf we'll announce the details when we announce the fundraise
2041[aae 56d] interesting
2042[aae 56d] those coins would be issued depending on how much space was provided over the period of time it was provided
2043[aae 56d] ?
2044[aae 56d] so, 2TB for 2 days, vs 4TB for 1 day?
2045[dreddwolf 56d] @ryan_singer Understood thanks for the quick response.
2046[hoffmang 56d] more like each block has a win of X coins to the winning miner and X coins are thus issued every ten minutes every year
2047[hoffmang 56d] your space as a percent of the total space would work like your hash rate as a percentage of the total hashrate in bitcoin today
2048[cyptogeek 56d] @aae Q: How will Chia farming difficulty adjust?
2049A: Like Bitcoin, difficulty will dynamically adjust to keep block time regular. As a result, as farming competition goes up, you can expect rewards from a particular disk to go down. We do not expect farming to have a high enough expected value to be worth purchasing drives in order to farm.
2050[cyptogeek 56d] https://chia.network/faq/
2051[aae 56d] yea, that doesn't answer the question, really
2052[aae 56d] but i suppose we'll have to await details
2053[cyptogeek 56d] @aae it is a bit vague. It would be great to know if there is going to be a max supply. How many will be available during fund raise, what type of fund raise, can you buy it with crypto, etc. But some cards are being held close to chest, others are still being worked out. Frustrating as it is.
2054[bramcohen 56d] Chia work difficulty adjustments work in the same way as they do in Bitcoin. The details are subtle, but not secret
2055[reedallred 56d] What about transaction fees, will it get crazy like bitcoin does?
2056[cyptogeek 56d] @bramcohen is working tightly with the lightning team and will alleviate scale and fees using this sidechain
2057[reedallred 56d] Gotcha
2058[cyptogeek 56d] Plus no profit hungry miners pushing up fees.
2059[reedallred 56d] Do we know when the lightinig team will try and implement their tech on bitcoin....Or is that stuff still up for debate in the community?
2060[cyptogeek 56d] End of February
2061[reedallred 56d] That would be sweet!
2062[cyptogeek 56d] See here https://twitter.com/SatoshiLite/status/949086660377034752?s=17
2063[cyptogeek 56d] Keybase is annoying. It removed by bit about Atomic Swaps. For anyone who didn't catch it
2064[cyptogeek 56d] BTC and LTC atomic swaps coming in "in a few months". If Chia utilises this on launch there is no need to worry about bottlenecks trying to buy Chia from exchanges. Looking forward to this.
2065[bramcohen 56d] @cyptogeek Lightning isn't a side-chain. All channels are on chain
2066[cyptogeek 56d] But it's not on the Bitcoin chain from what I've read about it
2067[reedallred 56d] I always thought it was off chain.
2068[reedallred 56d] That's cool!
2069[cyptogeek 56d] I guess it's got a chain of it's own. I answered my own question
2070[cyptogeek 56d] I hear Lightning network being referred to as a sidechain frequently on crypto articles. That's what has confused me. But I guess it's a sidechain of Bitcoin or whatever coin uses it. But it's not a sidechain if referring to it directly
2071[reedallred 56d] As a side note. I would really like to start to learn how to program blockchain, as a dev I am really interested in it. Anyone have any good recourses to get started on blockchain?
2072[cyptogeek 56d] https://twitter.com/i/web/status/938827250685812736 | @AriDavidPaul @davidodoswell @Bullitoss @roasbeef Those recommendations were both from me. cryptobook.us is a great… twitter.com/i/web/status/938827250685812736
2073[cyptogeek 56d] From @bramcohen's twitter
2074[reedallred 56d] Gold my friend! And thanks for tweeting that info out @bramcohen ! :wink:
2075[cyptogeek 56d] The great thing about Chia being developed to work with Lightning network is that there is less to modify later. It's compatible from the get go, plus @bramcohen has time to observe it in action and if there are any, bugs or improvements, resolve them before Chia launch.
2076[stark 55d] @cyptogeek Lightning isn't a blockchain itself, that's the point 🙃
2077[stark 55d] It's also not a sidechain
2078[stark 55d] And Charlie/Lopp's tweet is nonsense
2079[stark 55d] They were talking about cross-chain swaps and we're the only ones building it right now, definitely not production ready in a few months
2080[stark 55d] Lopp is great but was misled
2081[cyptogeek 55d] Thanks for clarification @stark . Oh well fingers crossed for Chia launch at the end of the year to tie in with some of these awsome LN features.
2082[usern4me401 55d] Has LN been successful?  Are we seeing more and more people using LN instead of directly transacting with the blockchain?  Is it possible to find out how many transactions have taken place on the LN?
2083[cyptogeek 55d] There has been transactions on LN, but it's not ready for the public yet.
2084[ricoc47 55d] Looking forward to the launch. From Seattle and would like to part of the community to launch Chia.
2085[stark 55d] We see seeing more and more users testing LN and it's awesome!
2086[lorenzobenevento 55d] Hi everyone, I was wondering why don't make this cryptos not only the greenest but also the only one really usefull. Because cryptos until now are just something astract, you can't buy with cryptos. What about doing it? What's the main problem?
2087[lorenzobenevento 55d] Because for sure there is one if none has alredy did it! Ahahahah!
2088[thomasalvord 55d] @lorenzobenevento Chia plans to make it useful for transacting by having it be compatible with the lightening network. If you are unfamiliar with the lightening network, there is material online you can find about it.
2089[lorenzobenevento 55d] Okay, I will look for it for sure! Thanks for the info, but I'm talking about stuff like buying on Amazon with Cryptos (or maybe with the equivalent in euro if not directly in cryptos). It is just an example obviously!
2090[stark 55d] It's Lightning. ;)
2091[stark 55d] No e.
2092[nurazhar 55d] you heard of purse.io?
2093[nurazhar 55d] @lorenzobenevento
2094[ryan_singer 55d] Purse is great. Hopefully they support Chia after launch!
2095[lorenzobenevento 55d] No I don't, I'll have to look for those stuff tomorrow!
2096[dreddwolf 54d] @lorenzobenevento First you'll need to have a steady coin. The swing bitcoin has scares retailers at the moment. You wouldn't want to sell your car for a coin that could have a $5000 loss in one day. That's would be hard to manage. That's why you see a difference in supply of coins with altcoins. This is where we have to find a max supply that will be steady valued and easy to use. If you buy a soda with bitcoin it would look like this 0.000074. That's hard to keep track of. Let's say you have too much supply. Well now buying a soda could look like this 11000.00. That's why ret
2097ailers are holding back. We're headed in the right direction we're just not there yet.
2098[stark 54d] That's why people are starting to adopt bits in bitcoin. :)
2099[rustymonk 54d] Completely off-topic, I just wanted to thank @bramcohen for happy childhood memories (BitTorrent).. I say this on behalf of my friends too ^_^
2100[nurazhar 54d] Hopefully chia core team won't do silly thing like charlie in order to make it more decentralized
2101[nurazhar 54d] https://medium.com/@bitfinexed/coinbase-insider-trading-litecoin-edition-be64ead3facc
2102[cyptogeek 54d] @nurazhar that's debatable. Does it make a coin more decentralized to lead but not own? Are your choices more about the functionality rather than profitability if you are not incentivised by profits? I don't know the answer
2103[cyptogeek 54d] So glad Chia team chose Keybase over Telegram. Looks like with the ICO they're bringing in a two tier service. Paid and non paid. See Chia's ahead of the game already
2104[cyptogeek 54d] Monero guy talks about @bramcohen and talks how Chia may not be as robust
2105[cyptogeek 54d] https://youtu.be/Geiwb63nMYw
2106[cyptogeek 54d] 8mins 30 sec in
2107[udonis 54d] Have spent the last few days reading about the PoS algorithim, and really interested in contributing to the network
2108[udonis 54d] love what you're doing @bramcohen
2109[cyptogeek 54d] Funny how fluffy pony went on to say nothing of why it was not robust. Just a dig without context.
2110[tangtd666 54d] There are probably more differences between Burst coin and Chia. One of the major differences is probably the "proof of time component" as stated in the Chia FAQ ((https://chia.network/faq/). How easy is it for Burst development team to add that component? Thanks.
2111[cyptogeek 54d] @tangtd666 The question is who do you think will pull this all off better. The guy @bramcohen who invented it and has been able to develop it into Chia or some coin that couldn't find it's arse from it's elbow
2112[bramcohen 54d] @cyptogeek It's fair to say that it's still being worked on. His point was that cryptocurrencies can't just say 'oh we're switching to proof of space' and do it. The tech needs to be baked a bit more. We're actively baking it right now.
2113[reedallred 54d] :bread:
2114[reedallred 54d] Or maybe :doughnut:
2115[alexwice 54d] California is known to be a hotbed for baking.  :joy:
2116[curiousg 53d] @bramcohen - One thing I didn't see discussed much- what is the future-forking strategy for Chia? How hard will it be to do hard/soft forks, who would initiate those forks, and what would need to be updated (nodes/disks/other) when forks happen [especially hard forks]? FAQ says "The goal is to make hard forks effectively impossible, so governance will come from user choice and bitcoin-like decentralized incentives.", but software is software, i.e., soft and hard forks are eventually needed (e.g., bitcoin could have benefited from hard forks for EDA changes, trans per block count
2117, etc etc, which core is understandably reluctant to do due to hard fork risks)... Will chia hard forks indeed be disallowed?
2118[frankrbruno 53d] Hello!!! I made it finally haha
2119[frankrbruno 53d] Nice to meet everybody
2120[frankrbruno 53d] @copenhagen_bram @ashadle @richardkiss @ryan_singer  if there is anything I can do to help please say the word. I would really love an opportunity to help you guys out.
2121[ashadle 53d] @frankrbruno if you're a developer we're always looking for foreign langue translations on the website or help fixing exisiting issues.  You can check out the "contribute" section on the website at https://chia.network/
2122[frankrbruno 53d] I have met a lot of people in the space and I love new tech blockchains. This is why I am interested so much in Chia.
2123[frankrbruno 53d] Ive just started learning how to program but its an avenue im looking into. I just graduated with a a bachelors in business management and supervision. I work for Qtum I moderate their reddit, forum, and chats.
2124[frankrbruno 53d] I just got into blockchain in March
2125[frankrbruno 53d] but I wanted to finish my business degree before I took on programming...
2126[frankrbruno 53d] sorry for the poor spelling lol
2127[frankrbruno 53d] new keyboard need to get use to it
2128[frankrbruno 53d] I live in Florida I was actually stationed in California for 3 years what an awesome place
2129[frankrbruno 53d] I do have a couple questions about chia...
2130[frankrbruno 53d] first question what will be the chia token abbreviation?
2131[frankrbruno 53d] Proof of space...
2132[frankrbruno 53d] should I like be gathering up as many hard drives I can find so I can mine the Chia token?
2133[frankrbruno 53d] is that how the proof of space will work? the more space you have the more chia you will be able to mine?
2134[frankrbruno 53d] Also you guys going to let the USA participate in the crowdsale?
2135[ryan_singer 53d] We very much hope that our public sale is open to all american adults
2136[bramcohen 53d] @frankrbruno Yes proofs of space involve hard drives, exactly like it sounds
2137[bramcohen 53d] @frankrbruno So far we mostly abbreviate 'Chia' to four letters, as 'Chia'
2138[frankrbruno 53d] thats awesome
2139[frankrbruno 53d] OK so ill start collecting them haha
2140[frankrbruno 53d] Do you have any work for a non-programmer?
2141[frankrbruno 53d] I dont mind working for coins
2142[bramcohen 53d] @curiousg A surprising number of things can be done with soft forks, and most of the claims that a hard fork for increasing Bitcoin's blocksize limit would be a good thing are, to put it bluntly, bullshit. We're doing a bunch of subtle and involved things which can only be done with a hard fork to make future smart transactions work better but those are subtle and not what you'd expect
2143[frankrbruno 53d] Will chia enable smart contracts as well?
2144[hoffmang 53d] Yes
2145[frankrbruno 53d] Awesome!
2146[frankrbruno 53d] Very excited for this project!
2147[nurazhar 53d] smart contract with loop?
2148[nurazhar 53d] https://blockstream.com/2017/10/30/simplicity.html
2149[leonidshamis 53d] Hi, I cannot recall if someone already asked in the past about different HDDs with regards to speed of plotting and farming - such things like SMR drives, USB 3.0 external drives, etc. I expect that internal SATA HDDs shouldn't have any limitations, and I'm interested to know about SMR/Archive drives and external drives connected via USB 3.0. Thank you.
2150[cyptogeek 53d] As long as the drives can be read, they can be seeded. There will be negligible benefit in having faster read times via ssd or usb 3.0 over 2.
2151[poson 53d] Can non-Americans buy the Chias in Q2 of 2018?
2152[poson 53d] By the way I think I can contribute translations in Chinese if possible
2153[kwalton 53d] Is there anywhere I can see the roadmap, would like to know when coins will be purchasable/mineable
2154[bluetonic 53d] Helloo all
2155[bluetonic 53d] very interesting technology
2156[kwalton 53d] Yeah very interesting, take a look at burstcoin they have a working coin and miner, you should check it out if you're interested in Chia to get a rough idea of how it works
2157[cyptogeek 53d] @kwalton check out https://chia.network/faq/
2158[kwalton 53d] @cryptogeek thanks, been waiting for that page to be filled out, definitely gives more info on the coin
2159[kwalton 53d] Actually, just found a bug on android for the FAQ site, not at a pc right now so can't add an official issue on github but basically the FAQ page doesn't load when manually navigated to either using the URL or site navigation but just now clicking the link you just sent me it works fine
2160Using an Honor 9 EMUI 5.1 Android 7.0
2161[ashadle 53d] @kwalton thank you for pointing out that bug. If you haven’t added it as an issue yet, we’ll go ahead and add it. Thank you!
2162[thomasalvord 53d] @poson It's not determined who will be able to participate in the purchase of Chia in Q2 of 2018. The Chia team is working with their lawyers on this. Their hope/goal is to make it available to all people, but that is still to be determined.
2163[bluetonic 53d] @kwalton
2164I saw the burstcoin, it seems that the mining process is simple, but the harddrive's preparation takes a long time, from the point of view of the miners
2165[bluetonic 53d]
2166if I still have a chance to send a message to Mr. Bram Cohen, I want to thank him for BitTorent, a software that made my life much easier, so THANK YOU.
2167I would personally be interested in participating in the beta version of the chia network if there is such a thing, I have 2 harddisks of 8Tb each that I do not use :)
2168[bramcohen 52d] @nurazhar We'll likely be supporting simplicity in the future. Not immediately out of the gate though
2169[bramcohen 52d] @bluetonic You're welcome
2170[nurazhar 52d] yes thank you for bittorrent and today not in indonesia folks still share files on diskettes
2171[nurazhar 52d] now*
2172[nurazhar 52d] download files takes weeks
2173[cyptogeek 52d] @bramcohen I realise you are going to have dedicated proof of time servers. To nip in the bud any concerns over the initial key generation, could there be a backup proof of time solution.  Potential FUD: network is extremely busy or that a few bad actors could return block to genesis. Possible solution could be that if  there are any difficulties a more decentralized backup time server(s) /or nodes could confirm the time generated by the centralized time servers,  and if the time checked by 51% of decentralized nodes does not match that of the centralized servers a new centrali
2174zed server replaces the bad actor(s). Decentralisation is what makes cryptocurrency so powerful.  Any centralization takes the power away and allows shills or uneducated to shun Chia based on attack possibilities, regardless of how miniscule the potential
2175[cyptogeek 52d] Will farming fees be algorithmicly selected, hard coded into the wallet or chosen by the community. The great thing about Chia is the cost is not linked to electricity burned so no need for massive fees. The speed will be 10 minutes max as there is no incentive for farmers to prioritise processing higer fee transactions. Taking Lightning network out of the equasion, would the Chia network be faster and cheaper than BTC as standard no matter how busy?
2176[cyptogeek 52d] @bramcohen I realise you are going to have dedicated proof of time servers. To nip in the bud any concerns over the initial key generation, could there be a backup proof of time solution.  Potential FUD: network is extremely busy or that a few bad actors could return block to genesis. Possible solution could be that if  there are any difficulties a more decentralized backup time server(s) /or nodes could confirm the time generated by the centralized time servers,  and if the time checked by 51%!o(MISSING)f decentralized nodes does not match that of the centralized servers a new
2177 centralized server replaces the bad actor(s). Decentralisation is what makes cryptocurrency so powerful.  Any centralization takes the power away and allows shills or uneducated to shun Chia based on attack possibilities, regardless of how miniscule the potential
2178[frogger 52d] @leonidshamis SMR/Archive drives are useful. I just got finished setting some up. The trick is to first plot to a fast drive and then transfer the entire plot file over to the SMR drive, as they are good at accepting big files but not a bunch of small data. I used 100GB chunks. SPLOTTER is a good tool for this. Read speed is about 15 seconds for an 8TB drive when mining.
2179[stark 52d] @bramcohen see this? https://twitter.com/hugohanoi/status/951762596255838209
2180[stark 52d] HD space could be substituted in for POW energy.
2181[cyptogeek 52d] @stark true @hugohanoi fails to mention POST . POST would throw his argument as requiring energy to secure the network. @bramcohen has proven wasteful energy is not necessary to secure the network
2182[stark 52d] Well let's see. ;)
2183[stark 52d] I'm arguing it's more akin to POW because it's tied to a real world resource, in his framework.
2184[hoffmang 52d] It's fundamental to sybil attack resistance that you have to prove you've done something that's not free and resists you being a sole majority. This is the least wasteful idea so far.
2185[bluetonic 52d] I did a burstcoin test and what is really interesting is that the difficulty increases and falls by more than 100% in a relatively short time, and sometimes two blocks won consecutively by the same wallet address, something smells possible exploit
2186[bluetonic 52d] related to the way you can farm chia, from my point of view is a good thing that you can only farm chia with hard-drives prepared for chia and if you want to farm another harddisk coin, well the preparation of harddisks will take a long time what makes you loyal to a coin
2187[bluetonic 52d] I did a burstcoin test and what is really interesting is that the difficulty increases and falls by more than 100%!i(MISSING)n a relatively short time, and sometimes two blocks won consecutively by the same wallet address, something smells possible exploit
2188[hoffmang 52d] Re: SMR drives, I'm seeing bare regular HDD at a low of about $20/Tb shipped and taxed. Is there anything materially lower? Interestingly low speed drives are more than adequate (e.g. 5400 RPM)
2189[frogger 52d] $20/TB is about average market price. You can find as low as $17/TB pretty often though if you like deal hunting.
2190[leonidshamis 52d] @frogger “15 seconds for an 8TB drive when mining“ is pretty fast. Is if for internal SATA/SAS or for external USB 3.0?
2191[frogger 52d] internal sata, optimized plots, i7 4790k CPU, seagate barracuda 8TB(realizing this might not be an SMR drive now. I had assumed it was until I shucked it. Can't actually find any information about this model)
2192[psutter 52d] @bramcohen if the proof-of-time interval is only a second, could proof-of-time be randomly distributed on ordinary nodes, rather than running on dedicated proof of time nodes?
2193I realize this seems immaterial technically, but given the level of baseless FUD that goes around, people might get the idea that the proof of time servers are a centralized resource, and presume that Chia is centralized. Seems that a rare one-second CPU burst on any given node seems de minimis, and wouldn't affect the eco-perception of Chia (if that's what it would be)
2194[bramcohen 52d] No the reason that it runs on dedicated nodes is that it's faster on hardware. The only way you get guarantees is if it's running on the fastest hardware available
2195[bramcohen 52d] And one-second intervals would be orphan city
2196[zmeyc 52d] @bramcohen As I understood PoT servers will compete with each other PoW-style? If so, how it will prevent them from sharing answer with PoS miner nodes chosen by them? If there will be many PoT servers to overcome this, won't this become PoW competition again? (i.e. large miners with ASICs trying to become chosen PoT server to share answer with their PoS miners). Plus all normal nodes will have to solve the time puzzle by doing CPU-intensive work. Or is my understanding not correct?
2197[bluetonic 52d] @bramcohen
2198Do you know what this is all about?
2199just what I learned about a new fork from bitcoin but the surprise is Proof of capacity mining: bitcoinore.org
2200[bramcohen 52d] @zmeyc The competition among several to solve the PoT is only a few dozen tops, the amount of CPU there is miniscule by comparison. Normal nodes only have to verify the PoT result, which is a very cheap operation to do
2201[bramcohen 52d] @bluetonic it would be unsurprising if someone is already attacking burstcoin. It's cheesecloth
2202[zmeyc 52d] so it's the other way around - normal nodes give challenge and PoT nodes try to solve it?
2203[bramcohen 52d] Using 'proof of capacity' is a giveaway that the person saying it doesn't know what they're talking about. It doesn't appear in any serious literature
2204[bramcohen 52d] @zmeyc Yes farmers make proofs of space which result in challenges which are solved by proof of time servers
2205[zmeyc 52d] thank you for explaining! very interesting approach.
2206[cyptogeek 51d] @bramcohen If a time server were to fail, you'd have one of several dozen take over as time server. To build up tolerance  (especially) when Chia gets to Visa amounts of transactions how could users of the network be sure a bad actor(s) are not hosting these servers. If the government were to take down these time servers, would this coordinated attack destroy Chia,?
2207[ryan_singer 51d] @cyptogeek any CPU can run the verifiable delay function, it's simply that some will be clocked faster than others
2208[cyptogeek 51d] What decides the nodes to be time servers? Is it a centralised decision or is it selected randomly by an algorithm. Centralised decisions on who should serve POT is an attack possibility no?
2209[bramcohen 51d] @cyptogeek anyone who wants to runs a time server. They're volunteers
2210[psutter 51d] @bramcohen ah, thanks much for the explanation. i must have misunderstoof about the intervals.
2211[psutter 51d] how long will the intervals be?
2212[ryan_singer 51d] Probably similar to the 10min blocks in Bitcoin. If they are too short there are a lot of orphan blocks
2213[bramcohen 51d] If it isn't 10 minutes it will probably be 5 minutes. We aren't going crazy with changing the numbers
2214[psutter 51d] thanks, so its the block time. i misread some earlier comments
2215[frankrbruno 51d] @guys any word on making this legal for USA to  participate?
2216[reedallred 51d] Since Chia wont need a lot of processing power, would it be possible to use a rasbarry pi that's connected to a hard drive to farm?
2217[usern4me401 51d] The harddrive itself may need some external power, but I don't see why not.
2218[psutter 51d] is code development happening in a public repo?
2219[dreddwolf 51d] @stark Just watched your presentation at the 2017 Blockstack Summit. That was one of the best presentations I’ve seen. Now I have a better understanding of Lightning.
2220[nurazhar 51d] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PcR4HWJnkY or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnHRnlrO6bQ (i have limited bandwidth hehe)
2221[stark 51d] Awesome, thanks @dreddwolf!
2222[cyptogeek 51d] Just an idea: A few dozen POT servers are randomly (algorithmically) selected from the volunteers. But with an exception:
2223These dedicated servers are changed every x blocks so as to vastly reduce the possibility  of a single point of attack (x 24) then becomes
2224Each block takes ten minutes, so there are six blocks per hour, 24 hours per day (6 x 24 =144)
2225144 x 24(servers) = 3456 possible servers, therefore reducing possible point of attack by 3452 times less likely
2226[psutter 51d] @cryptogeek since the PoT algorithm creates a proof of a computation that requires time, an attack should be impratical. i am interested to see how the system will adapt to processor improvements over time
2227[cyptogeek 51d] @psutter when I mention attack I am talking about the dedicated servers being dismantled by the government authorities, as just one example. Once Chia exceeds all expectations and becomes (fingers crossed) the go to currency, what prevents a government from forcing these timeservers to turn off. This in essence makes it centralized and although you're probably correct in that acttack example, a physical turn off swith is also possible unless the POT servers are decentralized in some way
2228[cyptogeek 51d] If Bitcoin core team are sent to prison, Bitcoin will live on. Therefore there is little incentive to lock up developers as it will solve nothing. If Chia can be forced to switch off time servers, and this is at all possible, this hereby lies my concern about centralization of POT servers. That pressure can close down Chia
2229[nurazhar 51d] @cryptogeek you know people are running iota nodes voluntarily without incentives or linux iso seedboxes some are here because of ideology
2230[nurazhar 51d] cos their government are so corrupt
2231[nurazhar 51d] not saying iota is not a scam or anything
2232[psutter 50d] @cryptogeek yes always worth considering the worst case scenario. maybe the time server will be a flag on the ordinary node, and if no PoT is available it could kick in at random on other nodes. anyway, im sure bram has it handled
2233[bramcohen 50d] @cyptogeek No need to 'select' PoT servers, it's done by anyone who wants to, and the fastest one 'wins' but doesn't get rewarded for it, at least not directly
2234[bramcohen 50d] @psutter The number of iterations of the PoT is subject to the work difficulty factor and normal Bitcoin-style readjustments
2235[psutter 50d] thanks
2236[psutter 50d] @bramcohen is the seeding algorithm designed to be GPU-resistant? or could a GPU be used to seed a large farm?
2237[nurazhar 50d] anyway i found out chia means sharing in vietnam
2238[cyptogeek 50d] @nurazhar that's fantastic. Not just a beverage, but a meaningful movement
2239[tosho 50d] isn't Chai , not Chia
2240[cyptogeek 50d] @tosho thanks for correction
2241[cyptogeek 50d] @bramcohen thanks. So fastest dedicated server wins. I'm sure you've already worked out how to decentralize these dedicated servers in a way that is robust enough to withstand both physical attacks, bad actors and digital attack. Really looking forward to the journal now
2242[kitano 49d] @nurazhar chia in Vietnamese means distribute or divide
2243[usern4me401 49d] So it looks like bitcoinore is going to beat chia to release, but what crypto currency is better?  What advantages does Chia have over bitcoinore?  Is bitcoinore another flashinthepan crypto?
2244[cyptogeek 49d] @usern4me401 Looks like it's a burstcoin replica with Zero knowledge proofs planned in the future.  Missing the POT so is "busted" and open to return to genesis attack.
2245[cyptogeek 49d] @kitano distribute is a great meaning for what will be a currency
2246[poson 49d] good day
2247[viktorfaktor147 49d] How many coins will chia coins have (max supply)?
2248[gmtaylor 49d] @bramcohen will presale include credit card payments?  and will canada be included?
2249[namyamai 49d] If you go on chia homepage then click faq, I do not see the FAQs
2250[ashadle 49d] @namyamai I see it on my end, what type of device and operating system are you on?
2251[namyamai 49d] Hmm I am on Windows. Let me clear my cache.  I remember you mentioned you fixed it before
2252[david_blocksauce 49d] just joined here; im glad yall are using keybase over tele
2253[ryan_singer 49d] @david_blocksauce yeah, keybase is a much better fit for our needs.
2254[juggleypaul 48d] Very quiet on here!
2255[hodlmyballs 48d] Bought b2x and then found out the coin doesn't have a fully fledged network so I panic bought back into bitcoin at a 20% loss
2256[hodlmyballs 48d] made the worse trade of my life
2257[hodlmyballs 48d] Bought b2x and then found out the coin doesn't have a fully fledged network so I panic bought back into bitcoin at a 20%!l(MISSING)oss
2258[zapu 48d] that chain is stuck, isn't it? because of that bug?
2259[hodlmyballs 48d] I guess yea, now I'm waiting for my bitcoin withdrawal to post on this shitty website in Armenia
2260[cyptogeek 48d] Hi @bramcohen . Your Wiki needs updating to include Chia. Top of Google  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bram_Cohen ranking and it doesn't include Chia
2261[bramcohen 48d] Technically I'm not supposed to edit my own page. Feel free to make additions, it's a wiki :-)
2262[cyptogeek 48d] @bramcohen I don't know why they've included your name in the Google bug announcement without making it clear you don't work there anymore https://torrentfreak.com/bittorrent-client-transmission-suffers-remote-takeover-vulnerability-180116/ but I think updating the Wiki rectifies any association with Bittorrent now
2263[cyptogeek 48d] I'll get on and update the Wiki
2264[cyptogeek 48d] I know it could do with improving but I've updated it with Chia at least
2265[cyptogeek 48d] Please improve this please Chia community as it is a late night edit and I'm too tired to do anymore
2266[cyptogeek 48d] It's the top of Google so investors will be checking this out. Could do with updating whole team if anyone else gets time
2267[tibbers 47d] When will Chia start ICO
2268[tibbers 47d] @bramcohen
2269[ryan_singer 47d] Hi @tibbers ; We are currently working on plans to offer Chia to the public. We're hoping that will happen in Q2; but it depends on lawyers and regulators
2270[tibbers 47d] ok, chinese people will support you guys billions money:grin:
2271[ryan_singer 47d] Wikipedia correction: Bram and I started Chia Network Inc. together, and the company was founded in August 2017
2272[hoffmang 47d] I think we may have gently collided on those edits.
2273[ryan_singer 47d] I'm just dropping that here, I haven't edited
2274[hoffmang 47d] I can tell it's been a while since I last edited wikipedia... Can't find the edit history. There appears to have been a large reversion and now there are just a couple of additional facts around Chia that I added...
2275[hoffmang 47d] There it is. I added a source to my edits so it's better-ish
2276[detailyang 47d] @ryan_singer glad to know Q2 will start ICO:)
2277[cyptogeek 47d] @hoffmang Thanks for improved version. Looks lots better :-)
2278[hoffmang 47d] It’s only a little improved. After those edits sit a little we will add some more Chia content
2279[cyptogeek 47d] @hoffmang Could do with adding the Chia section back though. It's a sales section that could bring in interested parties
2280[cyptogeek 47d] Chia section is missing
2281[cyptogeek 47d] It's also missing the bit at the top
2282[cyptogeek 47d] The last section needs to be more brief but I think it should be there all the same
2283[cyptogeek 47d] I don't know how to bring old content back without replacing your improvement here
2284[cyptogeek 47d] Just got a message to say it was removed due to missing citation
2285[cyptogeek 47d] Anybody have an idea of what I can use as a citation?  It comes up with errors when I add sites such as techcrunch etc
2286[nurazhar 47d] https://chia.network/#aboutus
2287[nurazhar 47d]  Our CEO, Bram Cohen, famously invented BitTorrent: the first modern decentralized network protocol and one of the inspirations for the Bitcoin protocol.
2288[cyptogeek 47d] @nurazhar It's quite obvious the way torrents are decentralized file sharing. It would have been great if Satoshi Nakamoto had given credit to Bram for independently creating one of the most innovative internet tools to date in his white paper. Anyone with common sense can see how BitTorrent was a foundation for decentralisation in sharing a file rather than, the later developed blockchain
2289[cyptogeek 47d] Would not surprise me if @bramcohen was Satoshi Nakamoto
2290[hoffmang 47d] @cryptogeek - I'm going to let my changes linger for a couple of days and then add back something nearly similar to the Chia section
2291[viktorfaktor147 47d] Hi @ryan_singer, will it be possible to use a wallet for Chia coins when you will offer Chia to the public, or will we have to use an cryptocurrency exchange to keep coins "safe"?
2292[cyptogeek 47d] @viktorfaktor147 Chia Network team have a strong relationship with Ledger so definately expect this to be the first hardware wallet. By the time Chia is out there will hopefully be atomic swaps, so you won't need an exchange as much (fingers crossed). It's up to the exchange though.
2293[nurazhar 47d] satoshi is an australian from brisbane :D
2294also most koreans uses bittorrent protocol so i wont worry about marketing, get the tech right first
2295[nurazhar 47d] what's the rush my mobile network is still on 3G + intermittent
2296[viktorfaktor147 47d] @cyptogeek  Ok. Thanks for info.
2297[tangtd666 47d] @cyptogeek Does that mean it is better for us to get Ledger to get ready for Chia launch? Thanks.
2298[cyptogeek 47d] @richard_singer would be able to advise best as I have not been informed of a preference,  just that the Chia team have a good relationship with the Ledger guys. This sounds like better version than the Trezor anyway as Ledger are normally first to support a new crypto. I'm sure the Chia launch will include a software wallet you can install on your desktop.
2299[cyptogeek 47d] What I'd like to know @ryan_singer is if it's worth buying up liads of Ethereum while it's cheaper to take part in your ICO or will you categorically not be using the Ethereum platform?
2300[ryan_singer 47d] We're hoping to be able to accept USD, BTC and ETH. As for wallets, work is underway to develop a wallet, and we are talking to hardware wallets about how best to build compatibility.
2301[tangtd666 47d] @ryan_singer Will we be able to buy them through bittrex?
2302[ryan_singer 47d] Not sure yet about which exchanges and when. We'll announce when we can
2303[dalook 47d] Thanks for the info 😀
2304[cyptogeek 47d] @ryan_singer Would be nice to add Litecoin to the buy in crypto. Litecoin's reducing fees to  allow for fees less than a cent from next week so may encourage more spenders to part with LTC. I'm not expecting Chia network  to accept every crypto but it would be great to maximise investment from crypto that is being used
2305[ryan_singer 47d] @cyptogeek I hear you. LTC isn't that hard if we're already doing BTC
2306[dreddwolf 46d] The best wallet I’ve used is the Neo wallet. It’s so easy to set up and starts flawlessly 90% of the time. It also has a great UI for using the ledger for transfer. I’m pretty sure the City of Zion helped develop it.
2307[tangtd666 47d] @ryan_singer Thanks a lot for the info.
2308[dreddwolf 46d] The best wallet I’ve used is the Neo wallet. It’s so easy to set up and starts flawlessly 90%!o(MISSING)f the time. It also has a great UI for using the ledger for transfer. I’m pretty sure the City of Zion helped develop it.
2309[cyptogeek 46d] @ryan_singer Thanks for the reply.
2310[nurazhar 46d] https://www.bitcoinsuisse.ch/
2311[nurazhar 46d] @ryan_singer so you guys plan to accept wire transfer USD? via bitcoinsuisse?
2312[gmtaylor 46d] @ryan_singer will credit card payment be an option?
2313[welfarerelax 46d] I’ve done some simple calculations of the energy consumption, of course it’s difficult to make estimations since some of the parameters are really difficult to know. I think even in the worst case, i.e. Chia requires some special hardware that can only be used to farm Chia and nothing else. It turns out to be a lot better than existing PoW alternatives. I’ve now gone over to worry about botnets. Is it a big concern?
2314[monteiro 46d] Do you have an ETA for Chia? Sorry if this was already answered.
2315[zapu 46d] > Q: When will Chia launch?
2316> A: Chia plans to sale in Q2 and launch by end of 2018, but this is not set in stone and is dependent on development.
2317[monteiro 46d] Thanks zapu
2318[zapu 46d] you're welcome!
2319[monteiro 46d] So the ICO will come somewhere in 2Q18, that's very good news
2320[hoffmang 46d] The funny thing about botnets is that they would be pretty inobtrusive if implemented with any thought
2321[hoffmang 46d] @ashadle  Can you reject my pull request (44) so I can submit it per FAQ item?
2322[cyptogeek 46d] @monteiro please check out the FAQ https://chia.network/faq/
2323[ashadle 46d] @hoffmang Yep! I just closed it.
2324[hoffmang 46d] Gracias
2325[hodlmyballs 46d] Make the ICO late Q2 so I can save my pennies :)
2326[hoffmang 45d] ok, whitepaper or white paper? Google argues for the latter by about 5.9X results
2327Peter Todd (@peterktodd) <a href="https://twitter.com/peterktodd/status/953988150828843008?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 18, 2018</a>
2328[cyptogeek 45d] @hoffmang I'd stick to Bitcoin's reference to Whitepaper https://github.com/saivann/bitcoinwhitepaper
2329@bramcohen do you think miners stealing lightning network coins is a high enough possibility in order to require more
2330Peter Todd (@peterktodd) <a href="https://twitter.com/peterktodd/status/953988150828843008?ref_src=twsrc%!E(MISSING)tfw">January 18, 2018</a>
2331In most circumstances Lightning punishments have a high probability of success.<br><br>But not all: a majority of miners _can_ censor Lightning punishment transactions, and thus steal funds. We should not underestimate that risk
2332[hoffmang 45d] Unfortunately team Satoshi just called it a "paper" Note that various authoritative Bitcoin sources seem to lean "white paper" - still looking. May need  a Bram decision :joy:
2333[stark 45d] @cyptogeek luckily once we have Schnorr they can be indistinguishable
2334[stark 45d] Miners can censor other txs too...
2335[hoffmang 45d] Twitter poll on "white paper" - https://twitter.com/hoffmang/status/954779532367572992
2336[cyptogeek 45d] Thanks @stark another reason why Chia needs to exist. Too much 'miner power' figuratively and metaphorically speaking.
2337[frankrbruno 43d] Hello all how are things going?
2338[poson 43d] I want to buy lots of chias
2339[7amoodiya 43d] With credit card support and international buying hopefully
2340[menkent 42d] Hi
2341[menkent 42d] Is this the chia network chat?
2342[menkent 42d] I think yes
2343[menkent 42d] I'm a little confused with this lot of news
2344[menkent 42d] Any of us know what is planning to do Bram Cohen?
2345[menkent 42d] He tells it won't be so benefit generating that it doesn't go to make interesting buy hdd
2346[menkent 42d] I think if he plans to get anything better than bitcoin, better than ethereum and better than burst I think people will buy hdd
2347[menkent 42d] What do you think about that I have said?
2348[cyptogeek 42d] @menkent check out the FAQ https://chia.network/faq/ .
2349[menkent 42d] I have read it a lot of times
2350[menkent 42d] Bram Cohen plans anything big as bittorrent protocol or not?
2351[menkent 42d] Now I have five hdd mining burst, but it sucks
2352[menkent 42d] I need anything really better than that
2353[frogger 42d] The only reason I could think it wouldn't be profitable is if the pre mine is extremely high to the point where farming doesn't generate a large share of the circulating supply. Otherwise if almost all the chia is produced by farming, saying buying drives wouldn't be profitable is like saying this currency is going to fail
2354[menkent 42d] I absolutely agree with you frogger
2355[nurazhar 42d] bram has a poem that read... the revolution will not be monetized
2356[nurazhar 42d] so... i dont know.. maybe this project is not about making money
2357[nurazhar 42d] nonetheless will support bcos torrent helped me
2358[frogger 42d] lol this project is literally about making money
2359[nurazhar 42d] https://youtu.be/zZaB4hM8SQ4
2360[nurazhar 42d] i guess you're right that why BTC doesn't want to make fees lower
2361[cyptogeek 42d] @menkent @frogger The farming award will adjust difficulty dependant on number of farmers. As HDD's increase the network, the difficulty will increase. I can imagine difficulty will be high at the beginning to prevent farming too much supply. Bram said that the farming difficulty will produce a similar supply to that of Bitcoin.
2362[cyptogeek 42d] @frogger It's about money. Replacing  FIAT
2363[menkent 42d] Well, Bitcoin is capitalized at the markets as a big american enterprise, so I supose we could do money with this
2364[menkent 42d] Well
2365[menkent 42d] FIAT is supporte by confidence in its value
2366[menkent 42d] But they are not relative to nothing (gold, platinum or similar?
2367[nurazhar 42d] i dont know if bittorrent.com makes money
2368[menkent 42d] Euros banknotes are only cotton pieces
2369[menkent 42d] bitllets
2370[nurazhar 42d] look at this project it gives you 100 free money daily
2371[nurazhar 42d] https://www.swiftdemand.com/
2372[menkent 42d] I think it could be a way of getting people information but I have registered
2373[frogger 42d] I understand the talking point of "buying hard drives wont be profitable" because who wants to be the guy on record saying "this will be profitable!" when it might not be, I just haven't seen a logical argument as to why that would be true
2374[cyptogeek 42d] @nurazhar bittorrent could have made money but Bram had a not so great person managing the project.  The best entrepreneur's learn from previous mistakes
2375[nurazhar 42d] he could've just do botnets
2376[nurazhar 42d] if he wants
2377[nurazhar 42d] so..
2378[nurazhar 42d] i mean if he is for the money
2379[nurazhar 42d] look at dan larimer
2380[nurazhar 42d] https://steemit.com/@dan/transfers
2381[nurazhar 42d] he doesnt need to do EOS
2382[menkent 42d] Well, I have five hdd now waiting for chia
2383[cyptogeek 42d] EOS is a big ICO making EOS guys lots of money. It doesn't need blockchain. It could have run the equivalent of DAPS from a centralized non blockchain server. It wants to do an Ethereum thing. I bought some before reading aboutv it properly.
2384[menkent 42d] I think a token whose name is so similar to steam is really that smoke
2385[menkent 42d] There is an influencer dragqueen that has created his own crypto
2386[menkent 42d] I think there are now 1500 cryptos aprox. and only between five or ten are elegibles as inversion
2387[menkent 42d] Most of cryptos are only scams to make money with the ico
2388[menkent 42d] There is not a project
2389[menkent 42d] There is no use for the token
2390[menkent 42d] And the FMI wants to regulate this
2391[cyptogeek 42d] Steemit is a good idea if it was properly decentralized, but it's slow to use. I like the model that pays users, but it's got big manipulation by a few large holders. Paying mates lots for crappy posts.
2392[menkent 42d] This regulation will make icos and tokens less atractive
2393[cyptogeek 42d] There's still room for a replacement to Youtube and Facebook, but it's not here yet
2394[cyptogeek 42d] @menkent I agree most ICO's are scams. Many don't need to raise money, they could just launch.
2395[nurazhar 42d] try yours.com
2396[nurazhar 42d] i mean yours.org
2397[nurazhar 42d] use bitcoin same as steemit
2398[nurazhar 42d] dont know i dont have eos but eos is up there top 10
2399[nurazhar 42d] everything was a scam too
2400[nurazhar 42d] ethereum was a scam too
2401[nurazhar 42d] i dont know which one is a scam, i just follow what feels right
2402[nurazhar 42d] everyone said xrp was a scam i sold and regret
2403[nurazhar 42d] ;P
2404[cyptogeek 42d] @nurazhar seems like the browser that pays content creators https://www.cnet.com/news/brave-browser-begins-million-dollar-token-giveaway/
2405[cyptogeek 42d] I like the theory of Steemit.com where it doesn't cost you any real FIAT. You get awarded for content without splashing out your own cash. Youtube are censoring some great crypto publishers. Something better than Dtube will replace Youtube eventually
2406[menkent 42d] I'm sorry but I'm spanish
2407[menkent 42d] My english level is bad enough compared with yours
2408[menkent 42d] I understand you but it costs to me
2409[menkent 42d] Please use plain english words
2410[cyptogeek 42d] @menkent Youtube are censoring good publishers to please advertisers. Another cryptocurrency based alternative will take Youtube's place, but we're not seeing a good replacement yet.
2411[cyptogeek 42d] Censoring (I mean de monetizing)
2412[menkent 42d] I understand cyptogeek
2413[menkent 42d] You mean that the enterprises that pay announces censor certain material.
2414[poson 42d] I think Theta will be the next big thing to replace Youtube
2415[nickolauswithak 42d] @poson what is theta
2416[menkent 42d] What is theta poson¿
2417[menkent 42d] ?
2418[poson 42d] Just visit www.thetatoken.org
2419[cyptogeek 42d] @poson .This sounds like an ICO'd version of BitTorrent.
2420[cyptogeek 42d] @bramcohen based on you founding the tech behind sharing files. Do you think a platform where Chia can be used to pay, or donate to content creators could work alongside a video sharing technology. Basically, would you ever consider founding a video platform where Chia could be the underlying currency paying for creators and hosters? With you being the founder of these protocols it just seems a natural platform to use Chia as the currency to fund a Steemit  like service. It would be great to see Chia being used for (but not limited to ) tipping, especially since Youtube are d
2421monetizing good contributors.
2422[bramcohen 42d] We're doing some further separation  beyond what segwit does for general cleanup and better smart contract support
2423[quynh 42d] @bramcohen Will smart contract be on Chia roadmap? Or is it something for another project or team to build on the Chia blockchain?
2424[bramcohen 42d] @quynh We're looking to have better support for known smart transactions. This bit is specifically for lotteries. Also doing BLS signatures for better aggregation (although trying to upstream that into Bitcoin as well)
2425[quynh 42d] gotcha, thanks!
2426[bramcohen 42d] https://arxiv.org/abs/1612.05390
2427[quynh 42d] Nice link. Didn't aware of Zero-Collateral protocol until now :)
2428[cyptogeek 42d] @bramcohen so your improvement shows that all that of tge diagram is for Bob''s transaction, as Alice's transaction is the "old transaction" (input 0)?
2429[bramcohen 42d] @cyptogeek It's further separation within the transaction data into 'transaction' and 'witness info'
2430[juannofear 41d] Hooola
2431[cyptogeek 41d] Welcome @juannofear
2432[psutter 41d] @nurazhar THANKS FOR POSTING THE POEM! I found a transcribed link, this poem is 100% sheer awesome https://gist.github.com/FredericJacobs/1614f8eb741532c3f2cb
2433[juannofear 41d] Thanks
2434[psutter 41d] @nurazhar THANKS FOR POSTING THE POEM! I found a transcribed link, this poem is 100%!s(MISSING)heer awesome https://gist.github.com/FredericJacobs/1614f8eb741532c3f2cb
2435[culv3r 41d] So just checking in after a bit of time, Nice to see that the team is abstracting data for what I can assume to be performance increases. I was looking at some of the articles posted and it's all interesting work that is (scarily?) becoming understandable. We just got past Shannon's definition of perfect security so in understanding that and heading into SKES I'm definitely starting to make more sense of things as it relates to cryptographical proof and what is going into these ideas.
2436[culv3r 41d] Considering that most people want mathematical proof that crypto coins are secure and the fact that AES is still only considered 'secure' by cryptanalysis and not mathematical proof makes the undertaking all the more impressive.
2437[batlantis 40d] how much (millions or billions) chias will exist? The total supply ammount? anyone knows ?? the faq only says
2438[batlantis 40d] "g rewards and they won't have halving so the amount of coins in circulation increases without bound at the fixed rate of annual mining but the proportion of coins (grains?) minted (grown?) each year perpetually goes down as a percentage of the total coins in existence."
2439[smga3000 40d] I was at a blockchain conference yesterday and telling everyone about Chia
2440[ryan_singer 40d] 👍
2441[menkent 40d] It will be an inflationary coin, a delfacionary coin or a neutral coin?
2442[menkent 40d] deflacionary sorry
2443[hoffmang 40d] On day one there will be some pre mined coins as outlined in the FAQ. All the numbers I’m going to use are only for illustration. Let’s say Chia adopts the original bitcoin reward of 50 coins and 10 minute blocks. That means that every year there would be 2628000 new coins every year into the future.
2444[hoffmang 40d] So in year 10 the number of coins would increase by a little less than 7.7% (due to the existence of an as yet undetermined amount of pre mine)
2445[hoffmang 40d] Now Chia May adopt 5 minute Block times and 25 coins per reward but that’s the same ultimate result. Note that I have no specific insight here - just relating what Ryan and Bram have discussed in general terms
2446[hoffmang 40d] In year 15 the amount of coins would increase by less than 6.7% and that number would continue to fall over time and will be easily calculated once mainnet is launched.
2447[hoffmang 40d] So in year 10 the number of coins would increase by a little less than 7.7%!((MISSING)due to the existence of an as yet undetermined amount of pre mine)
2448[hoffmang 40d] In year 15 the amount of coins would increase by less than 6.7%!a(MISSING)nd that number would continue to fall over time and will be easily calculated once mainnet is launched.
2449[hoffmang 40d] So the best way to put it is that it’s an initial inflationary currency that continually slows its rate of inflation as a percent of all coins available.
2450[menkent 40d] If I have understood inflationary with tendence to less inflation, haven't I?
2451[ryan_singer 40d] total issuance per block is unchanged; but that means that inflation per year as a percentage goes down every year. It's intended as an easily predictable and stable rate
2452[cyptogeek 40d] That was a really good example @hoffmang, thanks. Does anyone know why an inflationary supply was chosen over a fixed supply like Bitcoin? Is it to limit price, to prevent the price not increasing too high like that of Bitcoin?
2453[bramcohen 40d] @cyptogeek It's because relying entirely on transaction fees for security can be sketchy if those fees get too low or too uneven. Since there should be little wastage from keeping flat farming rewards, there's no urgent need to completely eliminate theme
2454[shirokuma 40d] will there be a minimum purchase amount when the first chia go on sale?
2455[cyptogeek 40d] Thanks @bramcohen
2456[xpuctu4 40d] And what payment methods will be accepted?
2457Bank transfer for more than $100k?
2458[ryan_singer 40d] We're currently evaluating accepting USD, BTC, ETH. We've had interest in litecoin, but we're concerned that markets aren't deep enough to unload them.
2459[ryan_singer 40d] The goal is for the minimum purchase to be as low as possible. I'd love for people to participate with small amounts
2460[ryan_singer 40d] These are all tentative plans. Not final until lawyers and regulators sign off
2461[ryan_singer 40d] We won't accept them into the FAQ until we're ready to announce the final plans.
2462[gmtaylor 40d] how will the sale work will you first need a wallet?
2463[ryan_singer 40d] We'll see. It'll be well advertised in advance
2464[menkent 40d] Is there anybody able to translate this into spanish "It's because relying entirely on transaction fees for security can be sketchy if those fees get too low or too uneven. Since there should be little wastage from keeping flat farming rewards, there's no urgent need to completely eliminate theme"?
2465[menkent 40d] I'm unable to understand this
2466[menkent 40d] I have try baylon translation but it is a bizarre translation
2467[menkent 40d] Google translator another bizarre translation
2468[cyptogeek 40d] @menkent So at the moment when Bitcoin gets up to it's maximum supply, miners will only be incentivised to mine blocks if they collect a fee (miners are notoriously greedy and without going off topic, just look at Bitcoin's face off between Bitcoin core and miners). So without a fee miners will not secure the network through mining.
2469Chia incentivises continued farming as the payout for farming new coins is continuous, thus farmers continue to secure the network. Even with minimal increases in coins per year, the negligible cost of farming means that incentive to farm will continue.
2470Chia's method of incrntivising farmers through block reward rather than fees, mean that farmers can't skew the network with rediculous fees. This also means that transactions with Chia will be Free as you won't have to pay a fee to a miner
2471[menkent 40d] Thank you so much for the effort cyptogeek. If I have understood it the fees will be ridicoulous and they will be inexpensive not as in bitcoin actually but in chia the payout for farming will be continous. Not as with bitcoin or ethereum
2472[bramcohen 40d] Chia will have transaction fees as well! But the farming rewards will continue as an adjunct. Hopefully the fixed rewards become lower than the transaction fees because transactions are valuable enough to warrant that
2473[cyptogeek 40d] @menkent Not sure about Ethereum, but correct in what you say about Bitcoin. Thanks for the clarification @bramcohen.  Just updated the fee bit
2474[menkent 40d] I think you are entering in contradiction, not?
2475[menkent 40d] Bram, what about the ICO? (Prizes, number of coins, and so on?
2476[cyptogeek 40d] @menkent @ryan singer just said those details will be transparent and available nearer the time of the ICO fund raise in Q2 this year
2477[menkent 40d] Q2 means second period of four months?
2478[ryan_singer 40d] We're shooting for June at this point, but it's still up in the air
2479[menkent 40d] June?
2480[menkent 40d] Will you accept € or USD dollars?
2481[ryan_singer 40d] It's not fully decided yet, but we will almost definitely accept USD
2482[menkent 40d] Of, really good
2483[menkent 40d] Not to cryptocurrencies please
2484[menkent 40d] FIAT money the better, I think
2485[juggleypaul 40d] Will farming be relatively simple (or well documented) to set up? Is the minimum spec required going to be quite low? And will pool farming be an option?
2486[ryan_singer 40d] We're hoping to also accept bitcoin and ether
2487[menkent 40d] ok
2488[ryan_singer 40d] Farming will be very user-friendly to set up, the most important spec is how much free hard disk space, and no, pools will not be available
2489[menkent 40d] I think USD is the best option for general people not inside cryptos till now
2490[ryan_singer 40d] Agree
2491[juggleypaul 40d] Thanks.
2492[gmtaylor 40d] I am willing to invest in chia but have not held anyother cripto ... thanks
2493[menkent 40d] Ryan, software will be similar to BURST as user-friendly?
2494[menkent 40d] Burst wallet 0..3.9.3 I think
2495[ryan_singer 40d] I haven't used burst
2496[menkent 40d] I think it it easy
2497[menkent 40d] is
2498[menkent 40d] But the project sucks
2499[menkent 40d] There is not a real application for the token more far than casinos online
2500[menkent 40d] You can exchange it into bitcoin but a very low rates
2501[menkent 40d] at
2502[menkent 40d] My typewriter is not really good
2503[menkent 40d] I need to go to sleep
2504[menkent 40d] It is near ten o'clock of the night here in Spain
2505[menkent 40d] Have a nice day
2506[xpuctu4 40d] I am already working on chia pool mining.
2507I am thinking of modular client-server where the modules will be currency-specific.
2508For example the chia module will use bram's code for disk reading.
2509[menkent 40d] Chia pool mining wont be supported have said Bram, if I'm not confused
2510[cyptogeek 40d] @menkent @xpuctu4 The reward is low due to the low resources required to farm. The farming is so decentralized that pool mining would be pointless with Chia
2511[gmtaylor 40d] with the rewards being low does that mean that chi will be hard to get long term?
2512[gmtaylor 40d] will this be good or bad for currency movement?
2513[cyptogeek 40d] @gmtaylor Cost to farm is negligible so incentive is there to farm, even though the chances of payout are lower
2514[ryan_singer 40d] We're working on non-outsourceability. The idea is that it's easy for a participant to send their partials to the pool, but cheat them when they actually find blocks. The goal is to make sure that enough participants cheat pools to make sure they are never profitable.
2515[menkent 40d] This technical english level is really difficult to me. I can understand 20% of the message
2516[ryan_singer 40d] Pools are a huge part of why bitcoin mining is terrible, and we're going to work hard making sure they fail in Chia.
2517[menkent 40d] This technical english level is really difficult to me. I can understand 20%!o(MISSING)f the message
2518[bramcohen 39d] Info of interest to making proof of time servers: how to overclock https://paulstamatiou.com/building-a-windows-10-lightroom-photo-editing-pc/
2519[bramcohen 39d] We're assuming that there will be hardware accelerated proofs of time, but this is a halfway measure
2520[hoffmang 39d] From earlier - that shows the percentage growth of Chia coins over 50 years with a "pulled outta my behind" pre mine number of 2.5M. At the end of year 50, the annual increase in coins from mining rewards is 2.00%
2521[bramcohen 39d] :popcorn: https://amp.reddit.com/r/siacoin/comments/7s2whr/whats_going_on_a_nonpartisan_explanation_of_the/?__twitter_impression=true
2522[hoffmang 39d] From earlier - that shows the percentage growth of Chia coins over 50 years with a "pulled outta my behind" pre mine number of 2.5M. At the end of year 50, the annual increase in coins from mining rewards is 2.00%!
2523(MISSING)[hoffmang 39d] (5 minute blocks of 25 coins rewarded)
2524[hoffmang 39d] (5 minute blocks of 25 coins rewarded)
2525[ryan_singer 39d] I'd like to reiterate that decisions about prefarm and farming rewards are not final yet and @hoffmang is demonstrating the concept and not the final numbers or ratio.
2526[hoffmang 39d] ^^^^That
2527[psutter 39d] around when can we expect to see the seeing algorithms, etc?
2528[ryan_singer 39d] @richardkiss is already working on seeding prototypes. We'll release them when were ready. No announced timeline yet.
2529[psutter 39d] ok. do we know yet if the seeding algorothm will be i/o bound or compute bound?
2530[psutter 39d] i get the impression that it wiill require multiple sequential passes through the disk, and i would guess, its mostly i/o bound?
2531[menkent 39d] Hi
2532[menkent 39d] all guys
2533[menkent 39d] How many passes to read a disk to prove a hash?
2534[cyptogeek 39d] Is the software for farming likely to be available on Windows before Linux distribution?
2535[onefuji 39d] A $ 600 million NEM was stolen from a Japanese exchanger:scream: (coincheck.com).
2536[menkent 39d] Security of exchangers seems really bad
2537[rustymonk 39d] dEx's gonna change the game.. Atomic swaps too
2538[menkent 39d] What are atomic swaps rustymonk?
2539[tosho 39d] swaping atoms and sh*t :)
2540[frankrbruno 39d] @bramcohen @ashadle  @ryan_singer
2541Couple questions
25421. Is there a limit to how many terabytes one can have hooked up to one computer to mine chia?
25432. Does it matter what type of external hard drive we use to mine Chia?
25443. Let's say I have 10 different external hard drives that I want to use to mine chia, drive a,b,c -j... Would I run the blockchain on each hard drive, or is there a way to combine all of the hard drives into 1 farming drive?
2545I'm very interested in the mining side of this blockchain and trying to get a head start on setting up. Any more information would be great...
2546[menkent 39d] Hi frankbruno
2547[frankrbruno 39d] Hello
2548[menkent 39d] Knowing a little bit ideas from Bram Cohen I think he will do a version running under a distro of linux running on a raspberry 2 or 3 , an usb 3.0 extender and external hard disks
2549[menkent 39d] If you prefer windows 10 then sure there will be a version of the software with a perfect gui and self-explanatory of his function and  capabilities
2550[cyptogeek 39d] Atomic swaps on the lightning network explained. Good video https://youtu.be/v2Gz6d-xaVU
2551[cyptogeek 39d] @menkent where did you find out about preferred distro. Just wondering what I've missed
2552[hoffmang 39d] @frankrbruno 1. There is unlikely to be a limit (think NAS, etc) 2. Your drive/storage medium will need to be able to look up a proof in a pretty short amount of wall clock time - most any drive will be plenty fast but some more esoteric storage might be too slow - there is talk of tapes in the scrollback here. 3. There should be no limitation of spanning drives though exact support style and timing isn't set yet
2553[batlantis 39d]
2554[menkent 38d] hoffmang 4minutes to read the disks, as burst for example?
2555[kodo 38d] chia looks pretty cool
2556[hoffmang 38d] @menkent I’ve only read about burst and have not installed it so caveat emptor. My sense is that in average production after launch on the Chia network your well optimized for seek storage is going to have to be able to answer in under 30 seconds to be viable as a farmer
2557[menkent 38d] Under 30 seconds
2558[menkent 38d] ????
2559[menkent 38d] What kind of hard drive could be read in 30 seconds?
2560[welfarerelax 38d] Yes, it's kind of the whole point of proof-of-storage that it's a quick, not calculation intensive process(ie doesn't burn electricity).  You get a challenge and the information is already sorted from the seeding process so you just do a fast look up and return the answer. You want to make it so that reseeding is not viable either(burns electricity).  This is my understanding of it at least, and i think thats how Chia will work.
2561[kodo 38d] i wonder how proof of space works under the hood. storage is just a device. couldn't I make my own virtual device that lied about available storage?
2562[kodo 38d] TIL https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graph_pebbling
2563[welfarerelax 38d] Yeah you could, there is a space-time trade-off for inverting these functions. There is some mathematical tricks involved. It turns out that these trade-offs only apply if you're function can be evaluated quickly in forward direction. In the case of practical applications it turns out to be enough to be evaluated forward in quasilinear time. The evaluation forward is part of the seeding process i guess. So if you have a construction like this, you would need actual storage, you sort of shift the trade-off so that it's not meaningful to try with time(doing calculations whic
2564burn electricity). Of course better if the team explained, i've only read some parts of their paper. The link: https://eprint.iacr.org/2017/893
2565[aae 38d] @kodo my understanding is that it'll read the proof off the drives every so often
2566[aae 38d] gotta seed the drive first w/ some cryptographically secure value, then it'll randomly read it for proof
2567[andreidutu 38d] Hello guys, im new here!
2568[ashadle 38d] @andreidutu welcome!
2569[bikersharks 38d] Hi. Just been back through the messages. All seems really exciting. Hopefully we can all help make this a great success for all of us 👍
2570[kodo 37d] it seems like they are keeping block times the same length as bitcoin. I wonder why that is? Do longer block times provide better security or something?
2571[kodo 37d] intuitively it seems like you would want shorter block times so you could have more confirmations in a given duration
2572[ninjasoup 37d] They've said 5 minute block times are a potential too
2573[menkent 37d] I think one minute per block is easy to achieve
2574[ryan_singer 37d] Longer block times reduce the orphan block rate. Litecoin, for example, has a much higher rate of orphan blocks than bitcoin.
2575[ryan_singer 37d] As a result, you would need more confirmations to trust a litecoin block than a bitcoin one, negating any time savings.
2576[menkent 37d] one minute to read the disks looking for chia seeds I mean
2577[cyptogeek 37d] So I don't think the 10% chance of orphan blocks is a problem.
2578[cyptogeek 37d] If the transaction is included in a block (but then the block gets orphaned), the transaction will likely be included in another block soon. You would probably accept a couple of confirmations if you were selling coffee. You'd probably wait a little longer if you were buying a car.
2579[cyptogeek 37d] So I don't think the 10%!c(MISSING)hance of orphan blocks is a problem.
2580[cyptogeek 37d] But if Chia can erradicate orphan blocks altogether while using Lightning network to make transactions super fast, it doesn't matter the size of the blocks
2581[usern4me401 37d] Is it even possible for a crypto to eliminate orphan blocks?
2582[cyptogeek 37d] @usern4me401 good question. With a time server for referal for each block, it would be interesting if Chia could eradicate orphan blocks
2583[cyptogeek 37d] Saying that; As it's not costing much electricity to farm, the odd orphan block doesn't matter
2584[bramcohen 37d] Rolling up discussion a bit: What you need to farm Chia is to *seek* in a few seconds, not read the whole damn drive
2585[bramcohen 37d] We're probably going with a 5 minute average block time, and about half size blocks
2586[bramcohen 37d] Chia's orphan rate will be roughly comparable to Bitcoin's, plus a caveat about takeovers happening. This will be explained extensively in an upcoming paper
2587[jmd3924 37d] Nice, looking forward to the paper! Everything about this project seems very interesting. I'd be happy to contribute copyediting/proofreading via GitHub or any other means if you're interested (I did PR #60). Let me know if I can be of help. Thanks!
2588[michel_ 37d] Likewise folks
2589[michel_ 37d] Do let me know if I could be of helpl with the project
2590[menkent 37d] I can try to translate from plain english to spanish with help of one of my sisters.
2591[menkent 37d] If you want of course
2592[zoshe 36d] Here’s some fun info on time http://leapsecond.com/FOSDEM15/tvb-2015-Precise-Time-Hacking.pdf
2593[menkent 36d] hahahahahaha
2594[menkent 36d] Really good zoshe
2595[cyptogeek 36d] Contributions can be done by doing a pull request on GitHub https://github.com/Chia-Network/website
2596[zoshe 36d] @menkent it’s weak, but did you get the pun..
2597[cyptogeek 36d] What do you guys think? If Tether collapses when it's confimed that these tokens are made up from thin air and are not backed by real dollars; will Bitcoin increase in value or decrease. Some say that it will increase as everyone with stakes in tether will be desperately trying to exchange it for real currency, while other news say it will knock 80% off BTC / USD value. Just wanted to get your take on it.
2598[menkent 36d] Weak? I think it is funny
2599[psutter 36d] @cryptogeek If Tether is real the risk is small, and if tether is fake, the sooner it collapses the better. Don't be so optimistic though. Of course we would love to see BTC collapse by 99%, it would be like the greatest holiday sale ever. But it's hard to predict these things
2600[cyptogeek 36d] What do you guys think? If Tether collapses when it's confimed that these tokens are made up from thin air and are not backed by real dollars; will Bitcoin increase in value or decrease. Some say that it will increase as everyone with stakes in tether will be desperately trying to exchange it for real currency, while other news say it will knock 80%!o(MISSING)ff BTC / USD value. Just wanted to get your take on it.
2601[psutter 36d] @cryptogeek If Tether is real the risk is small, and if tether is fake, the sooner it collapses the better. Don't be so optimistic though. Of course we would love to see BTC collapse by 99%!,(MISSING) it would be like the greatest holiday sale ever. But it's hard to predict these things
2602[psutter 36d] @bramcohen what do you think of Sylvio Micali's Algorand? https://arxiv.org/pdf/1607.01341.pdf
2603[bramcohen 36d] I haven't been following the latest in proofs of stake. Supposedly the latest stuff is better than the stuff which came before. That doesn't mean it's great as far as what it can accomplish for real deployed systems
2604[bramcohen 36d] @cyptogeek I'm holding on to tethers for the upside potential
2605[psutter 36d] We're reading the paper now. It looks interesting. And yes of course, it's not a design for a currency or any financial purpose, just consensus.
2606[cyptogeek 36d] @bramcohen Took me a while. Lol
2607[psutter 36d] @cyptogeek i was just curious to get bram's opinion on Algorand, which isn't a currency anyway, just a consensus method.  although i think bitcoin assumes 51% of miners are honest?
2608[cyptogeek 36d] @psutter I don't understand how the paper has concluded that 2/3 users are honest. Looks as though  to justify it's robustness against attack.
2609[psutter 36d] @cyptogeek i was just curious to get bram's opinion on Algorand, which isn't a currency anyway, just a consensus method.  although i think bitcoin assumes 51%!o(MISSING)f miners are honest?
2610personally im more eager to see the chia paper, seeding algorithm, etc when its ready
2611[hoffmang 35d] One additional reason to keep block times a bit higher is so that Mars doesn't constantly fall further behind in the future...
2612[ryan_singer 35d] @hoffmang how many light minutes to mars?
2613[hoffmang 35d] 3.1 ish
2614[ryan_singer 35d] 5min blocks not bad, 10min blocks better, for that use case...
2615[hoffmang 35d] I think 5 min blocks may be better as your theoretical TX include is about 8 minutes worst case. You're not going to farm on Mars but you certainly can Lightning while watching from 3 minutes ago
2616[lemonforest 35d] And what, 30 second delay in rebroadcast a few times and hope for enough variation in send errors to guess it correct? Personally, I'd be like that guy saying beach kills autistic parasites and make absolutely no sense by saying that the best way to link the space between Earth and Mars is with fiber linked token ring from the space elevators we're supposed to have by now.
2617[hoffmang 35d] I think the reason SpaceX plans to deploy about 4000 LEO satellites for internet access is as much about Mars as it is about Earth revenue
2618[lemonforest 35d] Crap. I was hoping to lasso the sun.
2619[lemonforest 35d] That'd still be putting a lot of faith of network infrastructure in the hands of a select few though, no? I get that we just work with what we've got though.
2620[curiousg 35d] Will future changes to block times require a hard fork (ie., will not be allowed)?
2621[menkent 35d] To ryan singer
2622[menkent 35d] If seeding of chia is well done, time between blocks maybe of one minute. I have four disks mining burst and usually it takes less than a minute to check the nonces.
2623[usern4me401 35d] Wouldn't that depend on the size of the disk and the speed ie 7200RPM versus 5400RPM.. also rather or not it's a solid state drive or a traditional platter drive?  I would suspect a 10 terabyte platter drive would take more than a minute to check all the nonces.
2624[gmtaylor 35d] will a seagate 8tb usb 3.0 drive work well?
2625[gmtaylor 35d] https://www.bestbuy.ca/en-ca/product/seagate-seagate-backup-plus-hub-8tb-3-5-usb-3-0-external-desktop-hard-drive-stel8000100-stel8000100/10453010.aspx
2626[ryan_singer 35d] Time to seed is related to drive read and write speeds. Time between blocks is mostly about bandwidth and Network speed.
2627[gmtaylor 35d] thanks
2628[menkent 35d] I think the best option are 8TB hdd 7200 Rpm with cages icybox. It is the best option GB/USD. And hubs usb 3.0. I get 5 disks of 8TB read in about 35 seconds with burst. And it really suckss.
2629[gmtaylor 35d] how well do you think 24 8 tb drives would do ?
2630[menkent 35d] The link of bestbuy is really good. One or two hubs usb 3.0 and 7 or 14 of these externals drives have to work really well
2631[menkent 35d] 24?
2632[menkent 35d] Do you have 24 hdd?
2633[menkent 35d] of 8 TB
2634[gmtaylor 35d] im considering to use 24 hhd of 8gb
2635[menkent 35d] External HDD or in Icybox cages?
2636[menkent 35d] Wow
2637[gmtaylor 35d] external hhd
2638[menkent 35d] With usb 3.0 hubs?
2639[gmtaylor 35d] with 4 hubs yes
2640[menkent 35d] Well, I think with burst at the beginning It would be an amazing mining rig
2641[menkent 35d] I think it would do really well with Chia
2642[menkent 35d] But one thing that matters
2643[menkent 35d] Don't seed all HDD with Chia
2644[menkent 35d] You need an space about 5-10% to save data when nonces are being proved.
2645[gmtaylor 35d] whay is that
2646[menkent 35d] You need an space about 5-10%!t(MISSING)o save data when nonces are being proved.
2647[menkent 35d] Maybe 5% is enough
2648[menkent 35d] At least is as works with burst
2649[menkent 35d] Maybe 5%!i(MISSING)s enough
2650[happehbunneh 35d] would it be better to get many hard drives with low storage or few drives with high sotrage?
2651[menkent 35d] The best option prize/capacity is for 8 TB disks now
2652[menkent 35d] 10 TB too expensive
2653[menkent 35d] few drives with high storage
2654[happehbunneh 35d] lawl im a student
2655[menkent 35d] But I'm talking about burst
2656[menkent 35d] Maybe Bram Cohen or Ryan Singer could tell anyting about this
2657[menkent 35d] We need to wait for their words
2658[happehbunneh 35d] alright, but the most profitable set up...?
2659[menkent 35d] But, I think HDD will need a few free space to buffer the calculus
2660[happehbunneh 35d] from your estimates
2661[ryan_singer 35d] You can seed entire disks. Your filesystem will overwrite proofs with storage as needed.
2662[menkent 35d] ok Ryan
2663[menkent 35d] Best than with burst
2664[happehbunneh 35d] slightly confused...
2665[menkent 35d] An Icybox with space for ten hdd 3'5" and 8 TB would be really interesting I think happehbunneh
2666[happehbunneh 35d] cheers man
2667[menkent 35d] thanks
2668[menkent 35d] cheers
2669[menkent 35d] Excuse me for my english
2670[menkent 35d] I'm spaniard
2671[menkent 35d] And spaniards don't talk english
2672[menkent 35d] Maybe I'm the exception
2673[menkent 35d] By the way
2674[happehbunneh 35d] no worries mate, i dont expect everybody to have perfect english, and tbh i had no problem understanding you so nothing to apologise for
2675[menkent 35d] I'm music producer
2676[menkent 35d] My songs are in Spotify
2677[menkent 35d] You can look for Vicente Balaguer Gómez
2678[menkent 35d] Listen my songs and if you like any please buy it
2679[menkent 35d] They are really cheap
2680[menkent 35d] I think 4 or 5 cents of euro each one
2681[happehbunneh 35d] im a student about to go into uni
2682[happehbunneh 35d] need the money XD
2683[happehbunneh 35d] XD ill think about it bro
2684[happehbunneh 35d] hdd or ssd?
2685[menkent 35d] HDD
2686[menkent 35d] SSD too expensive and too small
2687[gmtaylor 35d] also i beleve the physical search of the spinning disk plays a part in the look up
2688[bramcohen 35d] Chia proofs of space will typically take a few milliseconds, it's just a lookup on the storage media. Burst has a bunch of bullshit thrown in because it's random crap thrown together rather than being based on actual analysis
2689[gmtaylor 35d] beautiful
2690[bramcohen 35d] This is... special https://twitter.com/uacomment/status/958278925851004928
2691[leonidshamis 35d] This is what happens when mining can be done with ASICs - Siacoin's difficulty rose x10 due to ASIC - https://siastats.info/mining.html
2692[zapu 35d] they were going to fork it to ban asics but they didn't, right?
2693[bramcohen 35d] They considered it and decided not to
2694[menkent 34d] @bramcohen, You have said what I'm being saying during days. Burst sucks and the staff. Th staff think they are the master of the universe. Bad dessign of the token. Very low capital flow. Really a shit. Your economic dessign if I understood is lightly inflationary at the beginning to get neutral with the lapse of time. That is a good aproach in an economic dessign of a coin in my opinion. I have 10 subjects of Economics Science by UNED here in Spain. UNED is the hardest university in Spain. There are no teachers. I got a nine in economic theory of first course, and another nin
2695in Political Economie of second course. I think nine is the same as low A in EEUU. I know a little of what I'm talking.
2696[psutter 34d] @hoffmang ESA says mars roundtrip time is 8min to 48min depending on relative orbit position (4 to 24 min one-way) http://blogs.esa.int/mex/2012/08/05/time-delay-between-mars-and-earth/). But hey, they can use their own cryptocurrency as far as I'm concerned
2697[hoffmang 34d] That's divide by two if you're listening to the ledger
2698[hoffmang 34d] Well, even that's confusingly worded. I only got an excerpt of this (where I pulled the 3.1 min from) but the whole thing says one way's above 10 min - https://www.space.com/24701-how-long-does-it-take-to-get-to-mars.html
2699[michealhe 34d] In each round of the lottery, if no one get the winning lottery, what will happen? will the chain pause？
2700[menkent 34d] @michealhe This is not a lottery, If it is a little bit similar to burst, you have to seed your hdd with Chia and to mine in a mining pool. The rewards are distributed in a proportional way between all members of the pool when a hash of Chia is discovered.
2701[aae 34d] weren't they designing it to be anti-mining pool?
2702[menkent 34d] Really?
2703[menkent 34d] With burst you need a mining pool. not with chia?
2704[usern4me401 34d] I've read earlier that they plan on preventing pool mining.  How they plan to do this?  They didn't say....
2705[menkent 34d] Then I don't realize the way of mining Chia
2706[usern4me401 34d] None of us truely know how mining chia will work.  This currency hasn't even been minted yet.  There still fleshing out the details.
2707[menkent 34d] Fees in BTC transactions are enormous
2708[menkent 34d] Make the coin unusefull
2709[hoffmang 34d] "Lottery" is an over simplification. Closest to the right answer wins the block and in fact the top 2-3 proofs will get distributed to the network after which the time servers pick the best proof. One of the design goals is to stop pool mining but that's not to be confused with pooling drives and other space you have available directly to you. Bram promises more soon above
2710[happehbunneh 34d] Why do you want to stop pool mining?
2711[ryan_singer 34d] The idea that the big bitcoin pools can 51% attack bitcoin is a design flaw
2712[ryan_singer 34d] To promote decentralization of farming. The goal is that each seperate farmer runs their own full node
2713[ryan_singer 34d] The idea that the big bitcoin pools can 51%!a(MISSING)ttack bitcoin is a design flaw
2714[happehbunneh 34d] but aren't pools more commercially viable?
2715[ryan_singer 34d] They are for bitcoin. It's our goal to make them not more financially viable for chia
2716[ryan_singer 34d] if we can make it so that pools lose money, we've done it right.
2717[happehbunneh 34d] so how do expect one to profit from mining chia?
2718[ryan_singer 34d] by farming only with their own drives; and not pooling with other people
2719[ryan_singer 34d] the same way people profited from mining bitcoin before there were mining pools
2720[happehbunneh 34d] personally, one of the worries i have is that so many people will start mining with such powerful rigs that it will leave others unable to make a profit
2721[happehbunneh 34d] but that may be because I dont fully understand
2722[ryan_singer 34d] powerful rigs won't help Chia farming. Only more hard disk space
2723[happehbunneh 34d] yeah sorry, thats what i meant by more powerful rigs
2724[ryan_singer 34d] the most profitable farmer will be the one that had a lot of hard drives already sitting around in their garage
2725[happehbunneh 34d] ah sweet, thanks!
2726[happehbunneh 34d] and oone last question, are you planning to release some 'seeds' into the market initially before allowing people to mine?
2727[ryan_singer 34d] We hope so! We're working with lawyers and regulators to find a way to do a legal and broadly accessible public offering. Stay tuned!
2728[happehbunneh 34d] will do, thanks again!
2729[qball 34d] Will the farming be limited to a particular operating system?
2730[ryan_singer 34d] No; we hope to support farming on linux, windows and osx
2731[qball 34d] Thx for the speedy response...I need some new drives anyway so the timing may work out well to pick some up
2732[ryan_singer 34d] https://twitter.com/alistairmilne/status/958812682030854145
2733[bramcohen 34d] This is the response to people repatedly telling me that Burst's Dymaxion is the shit: https://twitter.com/bramcohen/status/958807521241829376
2734[cyptogeek 34d] Really enjoyed this querky piece on Chia. Not too serious, but says it all. https://story.californiasunday.com/bitcoins-inconvenient-truth?utm_content=buffer50aa5&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
2735[qball 34d] Good article
2736[qball 34d] Gives us a day in the life picture of what’s going on behind the scenes
2737[bramcohen 33d] We've hired a few more people since then. The office hours discussions are fairly intense
2738[ryan_singer 33d] Also, I've joined full time, which is different than the picture they paint of me
2739[7amoodiya 33d] Awesome interview👍 it gives us a good insight on what the developers are working on and their vision😊
2740[ricoc47 33d] @ryan_singer Could you run at Raid 0 on a an external hot swap to get more speed?
2741[hoffmang 33d] @ricor47 There are going to be a whole lot of zany configurations. For example you will want to treat a real RAID with empty space as RAID 0 underneath and just let the RAID 5/4/whathaveyou controller slowly overwrite the underlying drives' seeds
2742[nurazhar 33d] > the most profitable farmer will be the one that had a lot of hard drives already sitting around in their garage
2743isn't it the same, just replace ASIC/GPU with HDD... eventually it will be centralized maybe to USA (seagate western digital USA)
2744[hoffmang 33d] the economics of disk space at scale is very different. Businesses of all stripes buy 3-5X the space they need every 3-5 years. Most sits idle in the first 2-4 years. That's going to be a very big and very diverse group of storage owners holding down the value of buying more drives
2745[michealhe 33d] @menkent Thank you.
2746[feduby 33d] Will there be any way to farm without storing the blockchain so older, smaller drives can be used? I'm guessing this falls under pooling so the answer will be no.
2747[usern4me401 33d] From what I read a couple months ago was that smaller drives can be used BUT they will just have a proportionally smaller chance to farm a chia coin.
2748[usern4me401 33d] But ya, if they somehow prevent pooling then individuals or corporations with massive amounts of harddrive space will end up recieving the vast vast majority of chia coins.  I believe that this will inturn create more centralization, not less... But we'll see what happens when the time comes.
2749[hoffmang 33d] One should not confuse the farming process with the size of the blockchain. One could run a full node of Chia without farming and just store the blockchain - exactly like Bitcoin today
2750[feduby 33d] i meant the other way around, if you don't have enough space left to store the blockchain but want to farm. It's not a significant problem at all. Just wondering.
2751(MISSING)
2752[frogger 33d] @menket i think you wouldn't be actually searching the whole drive, just the parts that could contain an answer to the current problem. Something like .02%
2753[hoffmang 33d] There is no reason one couldn't adapt node software to that use case (keep a pruned chain to mine on top of) but dunno if that would be supported in the offical software soon
2754[frogger 33d] @menket i think you wouldn't be actually searching the whole drive, just the parts that could contain an answer to the current problem. Something like .02%!
2755(MISSING)[frogger 33d] oops @menkent
2756[frogger 33d] oops @menkent
2757[psutter 32d] @cyptogeek  great article thanks for posting
2758[psutter 32d] @ryan_singer i understand the ideas to make pools less viable, but what's being done to make botnets less viable? given that "legit" downloads (aka crapware) and non-legit downloads (malware) can be purchased for low fees, especially for code that doesn't show ads (asked around, you know, for a friend). Botnets could pretend to be zillions of users and store each farmed token in a separate address...
2759[psutter 32d] @ryan_singer botnet conquesting could be an attack vector, since botnets could figure out each others seed ecnryption
2760[psutter 32d] im sure bram has figured this out, i havent thats for sure
2761[ryan_singer 32d] @psutter any ideas? Botnets are bad. It's a topic Bram and team are thinking about.
2762[psutter 32d] unfortunately, all my ideas so far are how to make a botnet look like a bunch of regular folks
2763[psutter 32d] thats why i was asking about the seeding algorithm (wether its compute, seek, or transfer intensive, etc), since maybe thats the way to break it.
2764[psutter 32d] my only idea, is if the minimum extent is larger than what can be hidden inside a random disk drive, AND if the seeding algorithm makes it impractical to spread the minimum extent across differetn nodes
2765[psutter 32d] i presume that a botnet would take the seeding code, and use it to write into container files, instead of hiding it in unallocated space as chai itself will
2766[psutter 32d]  chia
2767[psutter 32d] another idea - an effective promotion to get everyone setup as chia miners. have you seen the "DARPA Red Balloon Challenge"? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DARPA_Network_Challenge
2768[psutter 32d] DARPA created a contest with a $40,000 prize, to locate 10 baloons, in random cities in the US. The winning team used a cascading reward: $2000 was paid to the person who found the baloon, $1000 to the person that found them, $500 to the person that found that person, and so on. So the max payout for each baloon was just less that $4000
2769Interestingly, most of the intermediate participants were in India, calling relatives in the US to look out the window
2770Maybe a similar promotion could be used to get EVERYONE to sign up for Chia farming. INcluding, if a company preinstalls a farmed miner, maybe they get a percentage of the farmed chia for having referred the actual farmer
2771[psutter 32d] could be easier to detect and block farms if there's alread software running everywhere
2772[psutter 32d] (these ideas are weak but theyr're all i have)
2773[psutter 32d] Hmm, under the Red Balloon scheme, Bram would be the referrer for the entire Bittorrent network..
2774[psutter 32d] Maybe 1/2 is too big of a bounty, maybe its 1/4 or 1/8 at each stage. Anyway, a scheme for the legitimate network to get big fast is one way to go on the offense against potential botnets
2775[bramcohen 32d] If a botnet wants to farm using empty space, they can do that. It won't do any noticeable damage to the infected computer unless it's also trying to farm. If the botnet is willing to delete files to farm on them, they're risking far greater chance of legal repurcussions and are more likely to just apply ransomware
2776[bramcohen 32d] This explains why some sock puppets suddenly spammed me about Burst yesterday https://www.reddit.com/r/burstcoin/comments/7u70j1/bram_cohen_hyping_himself_on_his_quest_to_build/
2777[dalook 32d] Haha sock puppets 😂
2778[menkent 32d] Don't worry @bramcohen . I'm with my HDD in burst today and it sucks. There's not an economic desin of the token. The amount of tokens is ridicolous. It only serves to change to BTC to play in casinos online. It is really a shit.
2779[rustymonk 32d] I heard Chia team will support BTC's Lightning Network, which I think is cool. Hopefully, Chia will have neceesary technology such as n-lock time, etc, to implement something similar to LN on Chia mainnet straight off the bat.
2780[hoffmang 32d] @rustymonk that’s the plan
2781[ryan_singer 32d] @rustymonk Chiascript will have all of the bitcoinscript functionality from launch. Our goal is to support lightning at launch. @bramcohen is spending a lot of time on this topic right now
2782[bramcohen 32d] Technically we're removing some functionality because we're nuking secp signatures in favor of reverse BLS
2783[bramcohen 32d] Also technically removing checklocktimeverify in favor of checklocktimeverifyanddrop
2784[hodlmyballs 31d] Bram have you thought of partnering with bitconnect? @bramcohen
2785[hodlmyballs 31d] :thinking_face:
2786[bramcohen 31d] Haha
2787[ryan_singer 31d] Lol
2788[uberfly 31d] at least letting the bitconnect guy promote Chia
2789[uberfly 31d] still would be one hell of an advertisement
2790[dalook 31d] It still amazes me the value that bitconnect got to and how many people got tricked by them 😬
2791[cyptogeek 31d] @uberfly I wouldn't trust anything those Bitconnect guys are pushing.
2792[larremy 31d] @bramcohen @ryan_singer Is the Chia team looking to get guidance for your ICO from the SEC/CFTC during the US Senate hearing around Crypto/ICOs? https://www.banking.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/hearings?ID=D8EC44B1-F141-4778-A042-584E0F3B9D39
2793[smga3000 31d] I had an experience a couple days ago that I thought I'd share, because it illustrates just how corrupt most of the entire crypto information flow is in this space. https://medium.com/@ProgRockRec/how-much-can-you-trust-best-of-lists-b6308d6e22df
2794[menkent 31d] What a lot of shit in this world smga3000
2795[smga3000 31d] yep, it's ridiculous, I have a ton of stories, but this one was so blatent, I had to put it up
2796[feduby 31d] @smga3000 How much can we trust you for not noticing that's an obvious scam email impersonating cointelegraph? ;)
2797[feduby 31d] you can bet even chia will have some copycat website feeding off careless investors if/when they do an ico.
2798[smga3000 30d] thank you @feduby - I had thought the URL seemed weird, but the site is pulling a real time feed from the actual cointelegraph. Thing is, I have emails from them and coindesk and similar from months ago, asking for money, so it seemed realistic. bloody hell.
2799[bramcohen 30d] At Chia lately we've had exciting discussions about improvements to Chia script, reworking how transactions happen to make more sense, and lots of details about space and time proofs
2800[dalook 30d] @bramcohen Thank you for the Chia update, did you also pick sides for Pats vs Eagles tomorrow?  😀
2801[bramcohen 30d] There's a sports game tomorrow?
2802[dalook 30d] Vegas Knights vs Washington Capitals starts in around 11 hours also 😂
2803[menkent 30d] Sports games? I hate soccer and bullfighting and I'm Spanish.
2804[menkent 30d] I hate soccer because when I was a child my father saws absolutely all soccer games they put in tv. I hate bullfighting because in an objective way the bull has no chances in front of a man.
2805[djpandemic 30d] @bramcohen I'd be more worried about botnets being able to leverage some type of 51% attack or something of that nature.
2806[cyptogeek 30d] Looks like this journalist for cointelegraph is mistaking @BitcoinBram for @bramcohen :-)
2807[djpandemic 30d] @bramcohen I'd be more worried about botnets being able to leverage some type of 51%!a(MISSING)ttack or something of that nature.
2808[cyptogeek 30d] This guy https://youtu.be/kS0AQlS7F7k seems to think the massive btc selloff is due to insider info on changes that regulators (sec/ cftc) are going to make on Tuesday. Will be listening to find out what they're going to do about ICO'S. @bramcohen @ryan_singer If SEC is going to come down heavy on crypto would you consider moving to a more welcoming crypto country for 6 months, till your funding is complete?
2809[ryan_singer 30d] We're in active conversation with the regulators. As soon as we have something to announce on that front, we'll post it on the mailing list and here.
2810[bramcohen 30d] We aren't moving
2811[cyptogeek 30d] @bramcohen @ryan_singer Thanks. I wouldn't move either Bram. Just wanted a clue as to strategy.
2812[bramcohen 30d] On the one hand, me telling a grad student that his analysis of Bitcoin is profoundly wrong is punching down. On the other hand, the claim that Bitcoin's security is inversely proportional to both block time and block size is so completely wrong it's hard to know where to begin
2813[jnagelcozero 29d] Would chia network be a good fit for storing smart meter data? I'm keen to run an energy efficiency + demand response program via blockchain. Ethereum and most other networks would be antithetical due to energy consumption of transactions.
2814[jnagelcozero 29d] Not sure how querying would work on chia - we'd need to be able to retrieve data from a certain date range (e.g. feb 17 - june 17)
2815[bramcohen 29d] @jnagelcozero Chia's data structures will be similar to Bitcoin's
2816[rem 29d] I heard you guys were looking at using BLS aggregate signatures.. true?
2817[rem 29d] The technology is immature, but the theory seems sound for pairing based cryptography.
2818[rem 29d] just scrolled back and read you're using reverse BLS.. do you have a writeup about that anywhere?  I don't understand what the 'reverse' means in this context
2819[rem 29d] @bramcohen are you using the PBC library or something else for your BLS signatures ?
2820[bramcohen 29d] @rem We're currently using Relic just to get something up and running. We might switch to some other library in the future. We're using BLS12-381 with the two curves swapped around so that our keys are smaller than our signatures, since that's what's best when signatures are aggregated across whole blocks, hence 'reverse'
2821[bramcohen 29d] Dan Boneh is an advisor and helping out with getting the BLS signature stuff right. We're ditching ECDSA completely in favor of aggregatable signatures and have an OP_BLSAGGREGATE which doesn't take a signature but instead dumps the pubkey and thing to be signed into an aggregate to be signed by the key which spans the entire block
2822[rem 29d] @bramcohen Wow! that's great.  I'm really excited to see aggregate BLS used in practice.
2823[rem 29d] We're looking for a blockchain to support a mesh incentive project and sounds like Chia might be it.
2824[bramcohen 29d] @rem We've looked into schnorr and not having the option to always aggregate is just a nightmare
2825[rem 29d] The big advantage for us is the non-interactive nature of the aggregation
2826[bramcohen 29d] Yeah that's my interest as well, just on principle. It turns out it starts getting some immediate benefits like shrinking blocks a lot
2827[bramcohen 29d] Also have unique signatures which is important for our protocol
2828[rem 29d] Ya, I can see how that helps with block size growth.  Some of the stuff Andy Polestra has been talking about with Mimblewimble is really exciting.
2829[rem 29d] I assume same can be done with BLS, probably more
2830[bramcohen 29d] Yeah I assume. It's funny we had to swap the curves around. That was an intentional design decision assuming signatures are widely distributed once and then used to sign lots of stuff, when in cryptocurrencies they're typically distributed once and then used to distribute exactly one thing but that gets aggregated
2831[rem 29d] One worry I had is if you could factor out one of the signatures from the aggregate and still get a valid signature (just verifying with one less message)
2832[bramcohen 29d] It's possible to remove a signature from the aggregate but you also have to remove the corresponding signed message and pubkey at the same time
2833[rem 29d] Ya, that makes sense.  But you'd need to know the signature right?
2834[rem 29d] If that wasn't public, would expect that would be as hard as creating the signature without knowing the private key
2835[bramcohen 29d] Yeah you need to know the signature, pubkey, and message signed. I should probably stop making claims at this point because I don't know the math intimately, @alexwice is the one implementing this stuff
2836[rem 29d] Sure, I really only understand at the most superficial level myself actually.
2837[bramcohen 29d] I think the one big limit on aggregated signatures is that you can't sign multiple things in an aggregate with the same key
2838[rem 29d] Ah, that is interesting.
2839[bramcohen 29d] We're probably going to handle that by rejecting any transactions from the mempool which have a key duplicate to one that's in there already, regardless of fees. This is a purely defensive maneuver trying to keep the complexity of logic under control. If someone has headaches as a result of reusing keys that's their own damn fault
2840[rem 29d] Ha, that doesn't effect what I'm working on.  We have mesh nodes communicating at equiv of 2400 baud.  The savings from aggregated signatures is huge in that context.
2841[rem 29d] But only one signature per node is a feature
2842[rem 29d] But at the end of the chain, we want to record the tx on a blockchain.
2843[bramcohen 29d] Well you'll probably want to use the reverse version as well because that saves you almost half
2844[rem 29d] That's pretty amazing - since already it was only 2x the bit security right?
2845[rem 29d] I thought Boneh said that you couldn't do better than that though
2846[rem 29d] Maybe he's figured it out with the reverse.
2847[bramcohen 29d] BLS12-381 is supposed to get you 128 bits of security, analyzing it conservatively. The reverse version has identical security properties
2848[rem 29d] Any pointers on where I can read up on this reverse construction for aggregate BLS ?
2849[alexwice 29d] @rem There is not much difference, everything is the exact same as regular BLS
2850[rem 29d] Thanks @alexwice .  I am still new to this but eager to try it out.
2851[rem 29d] My application would be a one-to-many transaction where the payer signs, and each payee signs to claim a unit of the payment.
2852[rem 29d] I think it could be done with normal bitcoin script so should be expessible in Chia.
2853[rem 29d] Using a sort of anyone-can-spend construct
2854[bramcohen 29d] We'll do a writeup of reverse BLS in the future. Haven't done one yet because this is new as of last week and we have a long list of other things which need writing up as well. Including core parts of our protocol which need to be submitted for academic publication
2855[rem 29d] Looking forward to reading and kudos for spending so much time on the core crypto for this project.
2856[bramcohen 29d] Reworking the basic stuff has been a lot of fun. I'll likely be done with Chiascript soon though and sad when it's done
2857[frankrbruno 29d] @bramcohen is chia making its own algorithms? When the script is complete does that mean you will have running test net shortly after?
2858[bramcohen 29d] All the proofs of space and time is of necessity new. The signature stuff we we're just discussing is only a slight tweak to an existing standard. Chia script will be closely based on Bitcoin script
2859[frankrbruno 29d] @bramcohen also how long do you think you will run a test net before launching the main net. That is if you're planning to run a test net.
2860[bramcohen 29d] Definitely running a testnet. Timing to be decided
2861[wanty00 29d] First time I come back here since maybe 2 months, where are we now ?
2862[zapu 29d] chia team is still busy working on the tech, nothing major happened yet
2863[leonidshamis 29d] Not sure if anyone has posted this before - here is an interesting article asking whether "...it is possible that @bramcohen is Satoshi Nakamoto" - https://markessien.com/who-i-think-satoshi-nakamoto-is/
2864[cyptogeek 29d] @wanty00 You'll have to wait till nearer June before you see any action. Just waiting for the funding details to arrive. By the way. The Chia team is growing. A few more people have joined the team
2865[cyptogeek 29d] @leonidshamis although Bram would deny it he is either Satoshi or he just had a massive influence on Satoshi's work. Either way I think the Bram is amazing. He'll be known as the Einstein of our time.
2866[brambones 28d] Is this to be an open source project eventually?
2867[zapu 28d] chia? it has to be, right? is there any closed source coin out there?
2868[brambones 28d] No but I haven't read it anywhere
2869[hoffmang 28d] I'm pretty confident that Bram isn't Satoshi, though he and I share a suspicion of who it at least partially was.
2870[hoffmang 28d] @brambones The FAQ states that this will be fully open source under Apache License but may roll out a little slowly until mainnet it launched. At that time it will be fully open source
2871[hoffmang 28d] And I hesitated to say this but from his absolutely correct keyboard to you: https://twitter.com/bramcohen/status/960666100026486785
2872[jayeli 28d] How is chia being funded currently?
2873[hoffmang 28d] A seed round mentioned here https://techcrunch.com/2017/11/08/chia-network-cryptocurrency/ and in the FAQ at "Q: How is Chia going to be funded?"
2874[menkent 28d] @hoffmang I have put the article in my facebook and my twitter
2875[bunchofatoms 28d] @hoffmang Hal Finney?
2876[gmtaylor 28d] with all the government regulation talk and changes at the moment ... does this not set the stage for a new movement and for cripto to evolve around regulation and become more stable and legitimate.
2877[menkent 28d] @gmtaylor  regulation of governments only wants to give transparency to crypto users. To garant that money is not used to finance DAESH or similar. I think @bramcohen is thinking about it, and he will do something to be loyal to goverments. Ah, boys, pay your taxes of you get with cryptos.
2878[gmtaylor 28d] i see thanks
2879[gmtaylor 28d] How does a test net work?
2880[hoffmang 28d] @bunchofatoms there are lots of little and large things that point to Hal. I worked with him at PGP Inc 1.0 and he fits as part of a small group. Very much his coding style (in many not so good ways)
2881[ivandeex 28d] @hoffmang Very much what, like or dislike?
2882[hoffmang 28d] Hal was a genius but he was a bit of an electrical engineer from an era where saving every bit mattered. As such he often chooses strange data structures to save a byte or even a couple bits which makes his protocols and code more difficult to parse and write. That in turn makes it easier to introduce bugs.
2883[tylerdmace 28d] What about the theory of Hal + Nick working in tandem under the psuedonym?
2884[cyptogeek 28d] Watched the old codgers at the senate say they're going to come down hard on ICO'S just made me chuckle at the empire trying to reign back elitest control ha ha ha https://www.banking.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/2018/2/virtual-currencies-the-oversight-role-of-the-u-s-securities-and-exchange-commission-and-the-u-s-commodity-futures-trading-commission
2885[hoffmang 28d] @tylerdmace I'm certain it wasn't Hal alone and Nick does make tons of sense. It still feels like there was one more person based on writing styles.
2886[zapu 28d] I'm surprised that the original author has never "slipped" and used wrong ssh key, sent from wrong email etc. or anything like that
2887[zapu 28d] when you try to conceal your identity, you have to be lucky all the time. people who want to uncover you only need to be lucky once
2888[hoffmang 28d] Hal died of ALS in August of 2014
2889[7amoodiya 27d] @hoffmang I read about him, his body has been in the cryogenic lab ever since I think
2890[hoffmang 27d] Yes
2891[menkent 27d] I'm lost in translation. Who is Hal? What is ALS?
2892[7amoodiya 27d] @menkent Hal was involved I think with satoshi nakamoto and was the first Bitcoin recipient, ALS is well remember the trend Ice bucket challenge which was to raise awareness for ALS
2893[7amoodiya 27d] Amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS), also known as motor neurone disease (MND) and Lou Gehrig's disease, is a specific disease which causes the death of neurons controlling voluntary muscles. ... ALS is characterized by stiff muscles, muscle twitching, and gradually worsening weakness due to muscles decreasing in size.
2894Source wiki
2895[hoffmang 27d] https://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/31/business/hal-finney-cryptographer-and-bitcoin-pioneer-dies-at-58.html
2896[menkent 27d] Thank you so much foor the answer @7amoodiya
2897[menkent 27d] Wow, dead at 58, only ten years more than me
2898[menkent 27d] What a pity!!!!
2899[leonidshamis 27d] @hoffmang Thank you for the information and references about Hal Finney & Nick Szabo. I've spent some time today reading about both (and also about Craig Steven Wright, as far as the desire to find out who the real Satoshi Nakamoto is concerned) - both are incredible. Very interesting.
2900[7amoodiya 27d] @menkent no probs mate:)
2901[calebsmith 27d] @bramcohen when will your eurocrypt paper be on eprint?
2902[bramcohen 27d] @calebsmith Not sure since I didn't do the writing, I'm pesting my coauthor about that because people are asking
2903[calebsmith 27d] is there any chance you could send me a copy?
2904[bramcohen 27d] Not yet, haven't gotten signoff from coauthor. Just sent a reminder mail to him with explanation that multiple people are pestering me for a copy
2905[calebsmith 27d] Ah, I understand. Thanks!
2906[calebsmith 26d] are there any repositories I could contribute to?
2907[bramcohen 26d] @calebsmith Right now we don't have any code available. We are accepting pull requests for our web site though
2908[quynh 26d] Will there be a roadmap for Chia when ICO? Would love to know what you guys have in mind. Is the project aiming to replace bitcoin with better/greener tech and quicker pace of innovation? or just another greener coin?
2909[cyptogeek 26d] @quynh please check out https://chia.network/faq/ regarding what the coins aims are etc
2910[quynh 26d] I got this part "Our goal is to to prevent wasting massive amounts of electricity to secure a blockchain and lessen (e.g. ASIC-powered mining) centralisation." but what after that?
2911[calebsmith 26d] what is your specific question?
2912[gmtaylor 26d] if you want to know if chia will replace bitcoin. no one knows that answer the future is not predictable
2913[bunchofatoms 25d] what about proof-of-stake? why would proof-of-space/time be a better solution?
2914[hoffmang 25d] Proof of stake is an idea that proof of work was created to improve upon. It has all sorts of subtle and painful failure modes not to mention it's somewhat inherent abiliyt to lead to centralization. We hope the FAQ outlines why proof of space and time is better than PoW however
2915[menkent 25d] I have a question for Bram or anybody of  the team. Would be the people involved in a transaction anonimous or not? Ithink if not anonimous the coin will be easilly accepted for the EEUU and other countries because it will not be used to pay criminal organitzacions  or evade tax.
2916[hoffmang 25d] this coin will have the exact same anonymity and privacy as Bitcoin does today
2917[menkent 25d] @hoffmang I think not anonymity would be better for the adoption of the coin for governments all around the globe
2918[hoffmang 25d] I was being a bit... cute? Bitcoin isn't very anonymous at all right now
2919[cyptogeek 25d] Confidential transactions will be available on Bitcoin in the not so far future. This will help malleability. I don't know if Chia will be adopting this, but I don't see why not as it would bring Chia one step closer to resembling traditional cash.
2920[ninjasoup 25d] Oh wow main site looks a lot better now
2921[rem 25d] it seems like if Bram is exploring aggregate signatures for the initial version that CT and other anonymity methods will be easier to implement then in (current) bitcoin..
2922[rustymonk 25d] @menkent Hi! Chia will have Lightning Network right from the start, which will provide some sort of adjustable privacy (hopping through routes).. And whatever anonymous solution Bitcoin comes up with, will be easy to implement as well
2923[crewshin 25d] Hey everyone. Just wanted to say hi and introduce myself.
2924[bramcohen 25d] Hi crewshin!
2925[calebsmith 25d] hello!
2926[cyptogeek 25d] Welcome @calebsmith
2927[jmd3924 25d] Website redesign looks nice @ashadle - when did that go live?
2928[ashadle 25d] @jmd3924 thank you! It went live yesterday evening
2929[udonis 25d] agreed - really digging the redesign
2930[udonis 25d] love those icon @ashadle
2931[ashadle 25d] Cool thank you guys!
2932[zapu 24d] BTW @ashadle your keybase facebook proof seems to be broken, if you deleted your facebook or hidden it and not plan to restore you might want to remove the proof as well
2933[ashadle 24d] @zapu cool thank you for letting me know
2934[cyptogeek 24d] @ashadle This looks very high end. Nice work on the site. I notice format is good, but not perfect on all mobile devices. The main image and a few of the tables are not responsive and require scrolling of the page. But overall 10 times better visually.
2935[ashadle 24d] @cryptogeek yeah it definitely still needs a few updates on mobile. That should get updated sometime early next week
2936[ardana_1234 24d] So when can we expect an ICO for Chia
2937[7amoodiya 24d] @ardana_1234 ICO Q2 of this year June probably refer to https://chia.network/faq/
2938Nothing set in stone still under development according to the developers
2939[psutter 23d] This talk at BPASE 2018 is super helpful https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqxkO7C-cyk  much easier to follow (for me) than the paper
2940[mopey0905 23d] Also wanted to say great work on the website!
2941[ashadle 23d] @mopey0905 thank you!
2942[poson 23d] chia.net is a great name
2943[grich 23d] Yes, it looks great. I must say I am extremely excited for this project in general! =)
2944[frankrbruno 23d] You guys going to let USA participate in this ICO or what?
2945[bramcohen 23d] @frankrbruno The goal is to make the public sale as open as possible. We're still working on details and will announce later
2946[frankrbruno 23d] It would be great if you guys went out of the way to make it legal for USA citizens I know it may cost more, but it would be worth it. I dont see why it is so hard, because everything I read in the news it seems USA is welcoming crypto.
2947[frankrbruno 23d] Ok it's just very depressing all these icos are closed to usa
2948[bramcohen 23d] As part of the work on chiascript, I'm making a toolchain for bitcoin script. It's going to have a bit-thon compiler and decompiler (bit-thon is basically pretty-printed bitcoin script in a python style notation) and a bit86 compiler and interpreter, bit86 is basically chiascript
2949[culv3r 23d] Unfortunately, Cryptocurrencies are akin to Medical/Recreational Marijuana in that they are a new idea to explore in which the foundations haven't yet been laid out in a concrete fashion. And when already standing legislation comes up against new ideas, the interpretation of those laws against new ideas can often lead to pushback.
2950[culv3r 23d] @bramcohen Is there any reference for the compilers you listed? Seems that google hasn't made them easy to find.
2951[bramcohen 23d] @culv3r They're my new inventions, hence the lack of google juice, happy to answer questions about them though
2952[rem 22d] as you will natively support aggregate signatures, would chiascript support the concept of a one-to-many payment? I'm looking for something where each message signed is either unlocking an input UTXO or specifying an amount+output address.
2953[rem 22d] inputs are pay-to-any  and the outputs+amounts are specific 'any'
2954[menkent 22d] A question for all team of developers. Do you plan Chia will be the new bitcoin or ethereum?
2955[culv3r 22d] @bramcohen I know that Bitcoin Script is akin to "Assembly for Transactions" with OpCodes and corresponding data, so I suppose the question I'd have would be regarding what the toolchain does in regards to Chia? It seems like you're working on a way to transpile Bitcoin Script maybe?
2956[calebsmith 22d] Why are you opting for bls signatures over schnorr?
2957[galo19 22d] how fast will transactions be?
2958[calebsmith 22d] I'd imagine it will be similar to that of bitcoin
2959[jmd3924 22d] I think Bram said in here they're shooting for 5-10 min block times.
2960[brianzisk 21d] SF Cryptocurrency Devs Presents : A Deep Dive into Chia Script and Signatures
2961James Prestwich, of Chia Network, introduces us to radical rework of scripting language for Chia Script with BLS Signatures.
2962https://youtu.be/Og52VDU-pjc
2963[psutter 21d] @rustymonk is there a lightning spec for cross-currency transactions? current source for lnd is hardcoded to realm 0, and the sample code for the LTC/BTC demo looked like a hack
2964[psutter 21d] (not necessarily a hack, just doesnt seem to be adopted into the main code)
2965[psutter 21d] @brianzisk thats a great video. very accessible description of proof of space starting at 50:30, and of course from the start, the description of scripting language improvements is both informative and hilarious
2966[psutter 21d] @calebsmith James explains the choice of BLS in the video Brian posted
2967[bramcohen 21d] @rem We'll allow each input signature to specify a set of inputs and outputs which must be included
2968[cyptogeek 21d] Just watching this interview with Dan Larimer https://youtu.be/o7HQlcl-LlQ . He says every large system will be on a blockchain as it's more decentralized  (1:17mins) yet EOS is centralized. Each time I hear a developer say, "well it may not be decentralized, but Bitcoin isn't completely decentralized. Look how centralized mining is", it just enforces my belief that @bramcohen is coming at this task with a refreshingly independent and new approach rather than saying comparing a flawed system with a flawed system.
2969[davision 21d] Hello everyone!
2970[cyptogeek 21d] Hi @davision
2971[cyptogeek 21d] @ryan_singer How are you going to market sub amounts of Chia. Litecoin are using Lites and photons in the wallet, Bitcoin were considering Bits. To get over the mindset of users wanting a whole of something, giving a name to sub amounts may encourage more adoption as people won't mind paying for a fractional amount 0.1 ( Ground) 0.01 (Mill) are an example of getting adoption through a naming convention from the start. The problem Litecoin and Bitcoin have is creating a name convention after the market has adopted it's historical non naming convenient. The horse has already bo
2972ed. Would be great to get the marketing done right so recognition of sub amounts is a given. Especially if Chia wallet launches with the naming established from the start.
2973[cyptogeek 21d] The idea for sub amounts.
2974[cyptogeek 21d] Thinking refined is mill or milled, ground is less refined but not whole
2975[rustymonk 21d] Hmm, maybe 1 chia grain > 1 milli grain> 1 micro grain, or something like that? @cyptogeek
2976[cyptogeek 21d] @rustymonk that sounds much better
2977[cyptogeek 21d] Actually, probably best if the first letter is different for short reference.  I own 1 C, 1 G or 1 M.
2978[cyptogeek 21d] Or 1C (Chia), 1 gC ( ground Chia) or 1 mC ( Milli Chia)
2979[cyptogeek 21d] This is genius
2980Ç1.25g (I like the latin for C)
2981[cyptogeek 21d] The bit below the C looks like a root or a leaf
2982[rustymonk 21d] I like this kind of symbolism^^ haha
2983[rustymonk 21d] And this "Ç"  is literally pronounced as [ch] in Turkish
2984[rustymonk 21d] Çia
2985[rustymonk 21d] lol
2986[cyptogeek 21d] @rustymonk Now you've just made it sound too perfect. I hope @bramcohen takes this on, as for brand recognition it's spot on.
2987[cyptogeek 21d] My quick bodge
2988[7amoodiya 21d] @cyptogeek that's actually a very cool currency symbol I might say 😎
2989[7amoodiya 21d] I like how you show where it derived from too
2990[calebsmith 21d] @frdwrd  what is the additional security assumption made for bls signatures? You mentioned that Peter Wuille would have a problem with it?
2991[curiousg 21d] @bramcohen - this popped on my radar today. Are you guys in touch with the MIT group? I was not aware of this initiative. https://www.marketwatch.com/story/mit-led-team-is-aiming-to-build-a-better-cryptocurrency-2018-02-13
2992[nl9999 21d] burst
2993[gmtaylor 21d] https://github.com/burst-team/burstcoin/blob/master/MIT-license.txt
2994[curiousg 21d] interesting. ty.
2995[cyptogeek 21d] @curiousg looks like tradecoin is a trust based system where a central bodies carry out the auditing process. Tge whole ideological reason for Bitcoin in the first place was to decentralise power. A trustless system prevents a Tether situation.
2996[frdwrd 21d] @calebsmith you basically have to assume that pairing has the properties we think it does (formalized as assuming a Gap Diffie Hellman group exists).
2997[frdwrd 21d] A Gap Diffie Hellman group is one where CDH is hard, and DDH is easy. We make DDH easy via the pairing.
2998[frdwrd 21d] I don't mean to say Pieter would have a problem with it, just that he would point out the additional assumption compared to Schnorr or ECDSA.
2999[frdwrd 21d] Also, here's Pieter talking about BLS: https://twitter.com/pwuille/status/949023999350231041
3000[calebsmith 21d] Schnorr also requires additional assumptions that nobody seems to discuss
3001[frdwrd 21d] AFAIK Schnorr is provably secure under the same assumptions as ECDSA (which is not provably secure)
3002[calebsmith 21d] http://www.cs.cornell.edu/~rafael/papers/schnorr.pdf
3003[calebsmith 21d] that is true for passive adversaries
3004[calebsmith 21d] but not active
3005[calebsmith 21d] the one-more discrete log problem cannot come from standard assumptions
3006[calebsmith 21d] also, bilinear maps seem fairly promising from the theoretical crypto side
3007[frdwrd 21d] I know BLS better than Schnorr. Can't really comment on one-more discrete logs. I think most bitcoin engineers discount serial attacks, because key re-use is already bad hygiene. Bilinear maps are really interesting.
3008[calebsmith 21d] I don't find either assumption is too bothersome, but I think Pieter  may have a misunderstanding of the assumptions surrounding Schnorr
3009[calebsmith 21d] I enjoyed your talk btw, and please let me know when you start developing for chia script, I would love to help implement lightning and atomic swap functionality
3010[frdwrd 21d] More likely I've just poorly represented his position :)
3011[bramcohen 21d] BLS is definitely slower. We're making some tradeoffs
3012[jayeli 20d] Where are we with Chia? What’s going on nowadays. Have not checked in for a while?
3013[jayeli 20d] What can the community do now?
3014[cyptogeek 20d] @jayeli you could help keep the github up to date by doing pull requests.
3015[cyptogeek 20d] The github is for the website. So latest news, FAQ etc
3016[galo19 20d] why the amount of coins in circulation increase without bound? why this model?
3017[cyptogeek 20d] @galo19 Chia does not have miners that charge large fees for processing transactions. With minimal inflation farmers will receive Chia reward for seeding Chia forever and it will be based on a lottery payout rather than with miners asking for rediculous fees. You need a little inflation so that farmers are rewarded by processing transactions into blocks. This incentivises farmers forever and removes the reliance on astronomical miner fees that you have with Bitcoin.
3018[cyptogeek 20d] Even though the inflation is minimal it's still incentive enough for farmers using space that's idle anyway to be rewarded by the additional Chia blocks.
3019[cyptogeek 20d]
3020I may have explained this in a round about way, but Chia farmers will always be rewarded to farm blocks as inflation will produce the additional block reward to make farming (processing transactions) worthwhile
3021[usern4me401 20d] What do you guys think about the upcoming burstcoin forks?  https://www.burstcoin.ist/2018/01/03/the-burst-core-roadmap-for-2018/  And since burstcoin is supposed to be open source, why haven't we've seen 100's of burstcoin clones, like we see with bitcoin?
3022[bramcohen 20d] Burstcoin's market cap is very small, so there isn't much incentive for people to mess with it. The whole ecosystem around it is toxic and their underlying primitves are busted so developers don't want to deal with it
3023[bramcohen 20d] I'm giving a talk today about grinding and rewriting attacks and how we're dealing with them http://web.stanford.edu/class/ee380/Abstracts/180214.html
3024[gutschy 20d] cryptogeek. to give chia an inflation and make them endless makes them weak against bitcoin, on the other hand is this big aspect of the oestereichischen Schule. But I had hoped to achieve the same value gains with chia as with Bitcoin, without the disadvantages of high transaction fees and energy costs. Sorry for my poor English, greetings from Germany.
3025[bramcohen 20d] Paper is up https://eprint.iacr.org/2018/183
3026[bramcohen 20d] @gutschy We're hoping to keep transaction fees low using Lightning, which we'll support well out of the gate
3027[gutschy 20d] Thank you for your answer, I am honored, but is not a main argument for Bitcoin that he is finally and therefore has no inflation. The farmer has an incentive to farm is an argument, but can not be solved otherwise.
3028[gutschy 20d] I think Google translation is sometimes garbage.
3029[menkent 20d] @gutschy Google translation is pure garbage
3030[menkent 20d] burst sucks!!!!
3031[cyptogeek 20d] @gutschy from my understanding the inflation rate will be very close to zero so will not create excessive supply in of itself, so you will end up with a similar supply to Bitcoin's. So in the same time frame you should end up with a similar amount to Bitcoin, but block award will be regulated to prevent all blocks being farmed too early
3032[menkent 20d] I saw the graphic of inflation rate and I think chia is begining with a low inflation first to becoma neutral in mid term range.
3033[bramcohen 20d] We were running numbers on the inflation rate the other day and have a draft but aren't sharing it quite yet. There are likely to be three halvings and no more. The goals are to make the rewards reasonable year 1 while not being so high after 20 years that if we hit M1/gold that we screw up the storage market
3034[hoffmang 20d] to put it in perspective - annual worldwide population growth is about 1.09% (and falling slowly) Chia's inflation rate is going to be 1/4 of that and falling too so Chia per person will be deflating for a while (like 100 years and that's only because population growth may stop)
3035[hoffmang 20d] Chia's inflation rate over time will move asymptotically down to a fixed small rate every year that everyone will know and be able to calculate indefinitely. Bram has mentioned earlier that there are some security related reasons to not fully abandon farmer rewards as bitcoin does today. I'd say that the desire to have very small inflation is driven by keeping farming incentives well aligned and not a desire to inflate
3036[hoffmang 20d] to put it in perspective - annual worldwide population growth is about 1.09%!((MISSING)and falling slowly) Chia's inflation rate is going to be 1/4 of that and falling too so Chia per person will be deflating for a while (like 100 years and that's only because population growth may stop)
3037[culv3r 20d] I think it's ultimately a smart move. When you place a hard bound on the currency, how do you account for issues such as the Parity Contract issues that locked up hundreds of thousands of coins or other similar issues with bitcoin? And what if, over time more issues such as that occur. How does the system determine an unrecoverable asset vs. one in cold storage, etc.. So I think the idea of having an asympotically tightly bounded growth rate is more beneficial and directly addresses the previous issues I mentioned.
3038[rustymonk 19d] Inflation within reason could be beneficial. Yearly 0.25% is within margin of error and could cover the lost coins.
3039[psutter 20d] @bramcohen hope you can post a video of the talk
3040[rustymonk 19d] Inflation within reason could be beneficial. Yearly 0.25%!i(MISSING)s within margin of error and could cover the lost coins.
3041[cyptogeek 19d] With Lightning being utilised by Chia out of the gate, this will mean that the Chia supply will be smaller than Bitcoin’s. The amount of Chia being farmed is dependant on how many transactions exist within the lightning network before being pushed into a block. If you have thousands or millions of transactions before the last lightning transaction is committed to a Chia block wouldn't this mean that reward would need to be high to incentivise farming to continue. Wouldn't this high reward have the knock on effect of having Chia on chain transactions cost too much. There is a
3042adeoff and between having minimal fees on the Lightning network and having either unfavourable Chia fees or unfavourable farming reward.
3043@bramcohen as these variables are out of your control due to the Lightning network being a seperate entity, do you think the farming fees will grow to the $30 fees we seen from Bitcoin to incentivise farmers or would you consider the low and infrequent award to farmers to be acceptable?
3044[frogger 19d] "The amount of Chia being farmed is dependant on how many transactions exist within the lightning network before being commited into a Chia block."
3045@cyptogeek Could you explain this?
3046[cyptogeek 19d] Last question regarding the centralized time servers.  What's to stop a future ISP's with super fast internet speeds and money to spend on suped up time servers from taking all the traffic, then at the same time pulling the power?That would mean that time records vanish. Unless do you have a backup where periodically nodes have the ability to jump in at any time and become time server based on the most recent time? I suppose the time server would need to be pinged frequently to check if live?
3047[cyptogeek 19d] @frogger Using Lightning network only the first and last transactions are commited to the  Chia Block Chain. Every transaction inbetween the first and last transaction are carried out on the Lightning network (Could be thousands or millions of transactions). This could possibly mean that for every million transactions, farmers will only have to process two transactions.
3048[frogger 19d] okay yes but this doesn't affect the base block rewards which are typically most of any miner's rewards. Are you referring to a case in which transaction fees have somehow grown larger than block rewards (mass adoption / exponential reward halving)?
3049[frogger 19d] Also, in regards to time servers. My understanding is that Proof of Time will be a decentralized service, like block farming, so that in-between each Proof of Space block there is a PoT solution added to the chain by whoever solves it first. It may appear centralized because it would be less probabilistic, meaning the fastest computers should always have the fastest solutions, but that if that computer ever went down, the second fastest would just solve and commit it a little slower and everything would continue as planned.
3050[cyptogeek 19d] @frogger So what if this powerful entity were to host all the time servers and attack by back dating the time so that recent transactions are lost?
3051[cyptogeek 19d] @frogger I am talking about the fact that farmers will be left with less incentive to farm as Lightning Network could mean that farmers rewards are infrequent as only two transactions out of millions or billions of Lightning network transactions are commited requiring any work from farmers to commit these infrequent transactions to blocks.
3052[frogger 19d] I don't think a time server keeps track of what time it is like time.google.com.  It solves a solution that takes time to calculate, proving that time was dedicated.
3053[frogger 19d] and number of transactions isn't related to number of blocks. You can solve a block and not include any transactions in it.
3054[cyptogeek 19d] @frogger Don't you think that having large quantities of transactions in a sort of cache will weaken the security of Chia. It seems like a large reliance on a sort of Cache. Chia Blockchain based commits seem more favourable imo.
3055[frogger 19d] Idk but I assume lightning network will be entirely voluntary, so that if you need to use it you'll be able to but otherwise you'll be able to broadcast transactions on the blockchain as usual. It will be there for people who prefer or need it, or should Chia grow to a point where its necessary
3056[cyptogeek 19d] Thanks for the feedback @frogger
3057[frogger 19d] no problem. Again, thats all only from my understanding so I'd be happy for a team member to clarify anything I'm mistaken about
3058[rustymonk 19d] I think the market will sort itself out. some people are comfortable with keeping funds on LN, some will use onchain transactions exclusively. Some will keep their main funds in a safe hardwallet, with a small amount of coins in LN for daily transactions. Don't forget about other layers on top of the main chain, like MAST protocols for smart contracts. settling of these contracts will require onchain transactions.
3059[rustymonk 19d] Bitcoin is not just internet money, it's a global trustless consensus mechanism, super bookie.. and Chia could become a better Bitcoin, so..
3060[frankrbruno 19d] Hello all getting closer to Q2 exciting times!!
3061[7amoodiya 19d] Is it near the end of Q2 or beginning of Q2 which would be in June I assume?
3062[cyptogeek 19d] @7amoodiya end of June
3063[7amoodiya 19d] @cyptogeek Oh alright thanks dude😊
3064[hoffmang 19d] There seems to be some confusion above so let me see if I can address it. There will be fixed farming rewards for every block. Those will have a couple of halvings over multiple years but will then settle at a constant number of coins rewarded for each block.
3065[hoffmang 19d] Lightning doesn't have anything to do with mining rewards. It could keep fees lower but due to ongoing mining rewards fees aren't required to keep folks farming
3066[hoffmang 19d] Proofs of time are really proofs of elapsed time. It is a calculation that is not parallelizeable and takes a lot of wall clock time to complete and is adjustable in work factor, but is really quick to confirm by everyone else. A proof of time starts with the hash of the winning proof of space as it's input.
3067[hoffmang 19d] The whole point of the proofs of time is that even if time proof servers get faster there is no way to go back and start a new chain from the genesis block and catch up to the head because you have to dedicate so much wall clock time to creating the elapsed time proofs
3068[hoffmang 19d] And on the inflation front the mining rewards in say year 16 of the network are probably going to be 0.25% to the point above
3069[hoffmang 19d] All of the above subject to minor changes or slight innacuracies
3070[hoffmang 19d] And on the inflation front the mining rewards in say year 16 of the network are probably going to be 0.25%!t(MISSING)o the point above
3071[jp79 19d] Thanks @hoffmang!
3072[bramcohen 19d] @hoffmang We also need to run numbers on how many grains are in 1 Chia and how many bits we allocate for representing amounts everywhere
3073[hoffmang 19d] Funny you mention that as I was just thinking about it. Will put something together
3074[cyptogeek 19d] Thanks @hoffmang, wow that was nicely articulated.
3075[cyptogeek 18d] @hoffmang @bramcohen 1 Chia = 1000 grains fits well with the crypto value. 1 Chia =  100 grains makes it easier for newcomers who have a tied in association to cents in a dollar. But what happens  in 20 years when 1000th of a Chia is worth alot. It's a difficult dicision. What about adding an additional name for a 1000th of a Chia, like a Mill. Moving the naming goalposts later may proove difficult so deciding on a convention before launch is great for marketing. Good luck guys
3076[ninjasoup 18d] Or just have a higher payout quantity per block at the start to make 1 chia less valuable premptively
3077[hoffmang 18d] http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/bitmain-out-bushes-asic-ethereum-miner-1661657 (@bramcohen is quoted towards the end.)
3078[hoffmang 18d] also the move to .net is new hotness
3079[hoffmang 18d] https://chia.net
3080[psutter 18d] Great to see the paper out
3081[psutter 18d] @cyptogeek you can always go to micrograins if you need to
3082[psutter 18d] @bramcohen more bits
3083[cyptogeek 18d] @psutter Very true. I suppose it'll be the equivalent of for example the European bank releasing a new €500 note. €500 always existed but a note of that value is only released when required. At the initial stages anything more than 3 decimal places would not be worth much. When a 1000th of a Chia is worth alot you could do a soft fork (via a Chia improvement proposal "CIP") add a micro grain denomination to the wallet.
3084[culv3r 18d] As with most everything, it sounds like benefits vs. costs :)
3085[bramcohen 17d] @hoffmang My back of the envelope math is mostly that if one calibrates it so that the total amount of rewards in the next 100 years will be 2^64 then if the market cap hits $1 quadrillion the minimum unit size will be a thousandth of a penny. That seems to be plenty of room
3086[hoffmang 17d] That’s plenty of room. All we still need to do is decide on the naming break points
3087[frankrbruno 17d] Hello all just checking in and catching up!! CANT WAIT for this blockchain to arise!! Any word on time frame for the testnet?
3088[7amoodiya 17d] @hoffmang just a weird question but there is no relation in the inflation and calculation with interest ? Like interest is not accounted  or not even existing in crypto? Like I know it's a dumb question but I just want to clarify that
3089[hoffmang 17d]  Correct. The inflation on the Chia network after inception is only caused by the new coins created each block to reward the winning farmer. The network does not pay interest and one does not earn interest for HODLing Chia
3090[7amoodiya 17d] @hoffmang thanks for clarifying that really appreciated😊
3091[lmanners 17d] I remember Bram saying that a goal for chia is to avoid the need for hard forks. To that end, what's the initial (final?) block size going to be?
3092[cyptogeek 17d] @lmanners 5 minute block times, so I don't know what this translates to in block size. Possibly double the size of Bitcoin's.
3093[gutschy 17d] How I have to prepair to get chia in the publick sail? I mean, how I can buy it in the pre-sale. Sorry for my English.
3094[gutschy 17d] Will there be 21.000.000 chia coins like Bitcoins or will there every year coming new ones like Ether?
3095[cyptogeek 17d] @gutschy Public sale in June. No fixed supply. Minimal inflation every year producing more Chia
3096[gutschy 17d] @cryptogeek, thanks for the info.
3097[bramcohen 17d] I did a talk the other day explaining how proofs of space and time go together: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Zlcgt8FVz4
3098[frankrbruno 17d] @bramcohen  whoa whoa whoa... Proof of Stake decentralized centralized.. One can argue that point coming from the Qtum stand point who has over 3300 nodes across the world at the moment. Qtum even has one in space also working its way to  over 50k nodes. I feel this is the most decentralized blockchain out there so far.  Now I view Chia as new tech just like Qtum was when they started this is why I am so interested in Chia...
3099[frankrbruno 16d] I just think it would be better talkingabout how great chia is than talking about how bad other proofs are.
3100[raj7 16d] Is there going to be a pre-sale for Chia?
3101[cyptogeek 16d] @raj7 end of June. Subscribe to announcements for updates
3102[pmfl 16d] Will you have private sale?
3103[cyptogeek 16d] @pmfl No, it will be a transparent public sale in June
3104[frankrbruno 16d] Where is the link to the announcements
3105[hoffmang 15d] The specific numbers will be released closer to the ICO but, just like bitcoin there will Be inflation at first that falls over the first 15 years to about 0.25% per year and that keeps falling slowly. It will be very easy to know how many coins will exist in e.g. 40 years.
3106[gutschy 16d] How many chia-coins will be farmed in the first year, in the second and in the third, will this rate be constant. Cause I have problems with this part of the concept. The only reason for success of Bitcoin is, cause is limited to 21 Millions. Yes, there is the meaning of some people that money have to be inflation, cause it is money, that have to flow in circulation and don't stuck in wallets or a safe. The problem of my point of view is, is there a minimal inflation, who guarantee that is stable for the rest of my lifetime, more or less 40 years. I hope my question is not dump
3107[hoffmang 15d] The specific numbers will be released closer to the ICO but, just like bitcoin there will Be inflation at first that falls over the first 15 years to about 0.25%!p(MISSING)er year and that keeps falling slowly. It will be very easy to know how many coins will exist in e.g. 40 years.
3108[hoffmang 15d] The problem with fiat inflation is that you can’t solidly determine how many fiat will exist in 50 years because of politics. Here you’ll know almost exactly (like plus or minus 20 coins because strange things happen) how many coins exist on any day in the future
3109[menkent 15d] Hi. To the team of developers. Are you talking with exchanges to them to have Chia token in their coins?
3110[menkent 15d] Thanks.
3111[ninjasoup 15d] Is there a reason to even have a halving? I can understand why you would do it for something like Bitcoin where you would want to adapt the ecosystem to having less and less new coins over time leading eventually to no rewards in the end, but why with something with a constant payout per block?
3112[bramcohen 15d] @ninjasoup there are slightly different requirements early and later. Early on there's more concern about whether the rewards might be too low based on the market cap, later there's more concern that the rewards might be too high. Basically the expectation is that the market cap goes up over time, so the relative importance of the low and high end changes
3113[ninjasoup 15d] Gotcha, thanks
3114[gutschy 15d] @hoffmang , thanks for the explanation. When I first heard about chia, my hope was: "Year, Bitcoin without energy problems and lightning support, this is the answer!!!" But a crypto currenzy with a constant pay out??? Why does it look so similar to Fiat Money? This only works with partners and these partners needs a bunch of money. Could it be a good idea to make a chia fork called chia-gold? Chia coins with a limitation to 21 Millions coins. Bad idea, don"t know?
3115[hoffmang 15d] Ultimately Chia is open source but I personally think that concern about a fixed number of new coins is over blown. Further we all know how blockchains with rewards work. Fees only is a future experiment that hasn’t been done yet.
3116[curiousg 14d] Sorry is someone already asked this before: Are there recommended setups for mining machines? If I wanted to get some motherboard and set up a rig for Chia, should I just follow the instructions for mining burst? I'd like to set up a standalone rig to experiment with mining Chia as soon as mining becomes available.
3117[deltathumb 14d] is the bandwith a critical/important factor to run a node?
3118[hoffmang 14d] One doesn't mine, one farms and the critical component is unused disk/storage space. Anything that can do a read/lookup as fast as a 10 year old hard drive is good enough for storage. The network usage is really low if you're not running a full node when farming, but comparable to BTC today if you are farming and storing a full node too
3119[deltathumb 14d] ok, cause i got some dedicated servers with unused space at the VIX in Vienna with 100 MBit uplinks wich i will use for farming. Is that enough to run a full node? I'm running two BTC full nodes too, so how is it possible to run a full node at CHIA? Do i need to hold some CHIA tokens?
3120[bramcohen 14d] The cost of running a Chia full node will be comparable to a Bitcoin full node. The costs of farming will be an initial setup and essentially nothing after that
3121[deltathumb 14d] Ok, thanks for the info :)
3122[hoffmang 14d] If you aren't running a full node I'm betting you could run the farm from a 56k modem and have bandwith left over.
3123[mdoan 14d] @bramcohen Is there timeline/roadmap of the development?
3124[zapu 14d] there are some *rough* dates here: https://chia.net/faq/index.html
3125[oldcryptogeek 14d] Interesting concept
3126[gutschy 14d] @hoffmang, I do not want to be rude but so far as I know are XRP and Ether coins  with big companys behind them and constant pay. Bitcoin cares of it self by the community, because it is in the interest of the community to work with a good product. Proof of time and proof of space are great features, maybe Bitcoin will adapt them, but ok, it doesn't look so.
3127[cyptogeek 14d] @gutschy With the whole debacle to Segwit it will be impossible to get such a significant change over to POST. Basically your asking the big hands (miners) to give up their businesses and their not so small investment into mining hardware. This won't happen.
3128[cyptogeek 14d] @gutschy Bitcoin started off with no Marketing. I have more faith in Chia as it puts decentralisation before miners. This makes it more difficult for large companies to take over and centralize (e.g. XRP). For companies to profit, they  have to invest in Chia the asset rather than the typical profiteering from fees. Goodbye to Abhorrent fee generated income gained from large mining units, hello to anyone with a hard drive being a beneficiary.
3129Large companies want all the pie, Chia shares the pie. Profits will still be made by early adopters, so expect only the most sophisticated forward looking corporations to invest. Once launched, expect Chia to be a large player.
3130Marketing will be done to Chia rather than the other way round: Chia won't need to promote it's benefits, the users will.
3131[frankrbruno 14d] Hello all hope all is well
3132[moeadham 14d] Chia is one of the only projects in this space that I am genuinely excited about. I really want to help make this a reality. Are you guys looking for team members?
3133[jmd3924 14d] https://chia.net/#jobs @moeadham
3134[calebsmith 14d] the atomic swaps with aggregated signatures is a clever idea
3135[ashadle 13d] Like our new Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/Chia-Net-324129071326652/?pnref=lhc  and follow us on Twitter @ChiaNetworkInc
3136[hoffmang 13d] https://twitter.com/ChiaNetworkInc  for the lazy
3137[poson 13d] Why not set up a Telegram group for Chia?
3138[rustymonk 13d] Too much spam on Telegram, maybe closer to public sale? I like our community here ^_^
3139[7amoodiya 13d] Keybas3 is waay better
3140[gutschy 13d] @cyptogeek hope you are right, yes segwik was a long story. Chia has the makings of a big deal. And I hope I will be able to attend the pre-sale, but I still think that limiting the coin is the better idea. Thanks for your detailed answer. :+1:
3141[cyptogeek 13d] @gutschy By using limited inflation you change the balance of power from miners dictating fees to secure network to a more fair alignment of everyone with a hard drive securing the network. Users are being incentivised by the new block rewards ( new coins). The paradigm shift of power to users is worth the limited inflation to secure the network and make it more decentralized. It's taken me a while to realise that this tradeoff  of no fixed supply means a more valuable coin, so IMO decentralization benefits will outperform  the loss caused by limited inflation.
3142[cyptogeek 13d] @ashadle header needs adjustment to fit. Love the new marketing approach. Any chance of sorting out a Youtube channel for later when you want to produce publicity material.
3143[rustymonk 13d] Do you think it will be easy to prevent botnets on Chia Network?
3144[zapu 13d] what do you mean?
3145[usern4me401 13d] For example, someone launches some sort of malware that takes maybe 1% of victims harddrive space so those individual victims probably wouldn't notice, but when spread to enough computers ends up making the botnet creator a lot of chia coin.
3146[zapu 13d] what kind of bots do you have in mind?
3147[usern4me401 13d] For example, someone launches some sort of malware that takes maybe 1%!o(MISSING)f victims harddrive space so those individual victims probably wouldn't notice, but when spread to enough computers ends up making the botnet creator a lot of chia coin.
3148[rustymonk 13d] ^ Yes, that explanation is correct ^
3149[cyptogeek 13d] I guess it depends on what the Chia team decide to be a minimum hard disk space requirement. If it's 100GB minimum a botnet would be noticeable or vastly reduced with farmers with smaller storage space
3150[zapu 13d] or imagine the js malware
3151[zapu 13d] trying to allocate 100GB buffer :)
3152[hoffmang 13d] There will be a minimum that's sizeable like that. I don't think anyone can truly make a network not capable of being malware farmed, but over the long haul stealing unused drive space seems like such a smaller user inconvenience compared to stealing CPU
3153[vvh42 13d] I concur
3154[lmanners 13d] @cryptogeek I think clever malware can simply hook the disk at a lower level than the OS file system and fill all empty space for farming, allowing OS to overwrite as it needs space. Funnily, this might not be noticeable to a user if implemented 'correctly'.
3155[lmanners 13d] Of course all malware is bad since it didn't ask for permission, but on the malware scale it wouldn't be anywhere near as annoying as CPU mining like @hoffmang said.
3156[rustymonk 12d] Agree. CPU mining is worse. And 100GB requirement would make this malware much more noticable.
3157[tomiscw 12d] I remember trying CPU mining with Monero. It works in that I was at least getting something back, but the computer did still takes a hit even at the lowest setting that I often let it sit idle when I was busy.
3158[gutschy 12d] @@cyptogeek I see your point but the benefit of inflation does not outweigh the disadvantages. The problem with the miners is eliminated by the farmers, or not? What will Bitcoin Miner vs. Chia Farmer be like? 1 to 1000, 1 to 100000 or 1 to 1 million. In addition, the Farming yield may be linked to the Chia price or not. Why not farm half a chia or one tenth chia. The differences between low inflation and continuous payout and coin limitation are not so huge. My fears remain that somebody will someday double the constant payout for the year. And that was it then.
3159[gutschy 12d] Could I get the githup link for the website, please? Will only correct 2 details on the German site.
3160[cyptogeek 12d] @gutschy the only way people's fears such as inflation are resolved are if the inflation rate is set at fixed amounts and are set in stone. Bram does not want a hardfork. From memory @bramcohen has discussed this recently with @hoffmang so it looks like a decision will be made in advance of the ICO. The only way Chia could increase the inflation rate would be via hardfork. Bram has said the inflation rate will be close to 0. But I agree with you that the rates of inflation need to be predefined and not open to abuse later on, although I trust Bram Cohen, we don't want the sam
3161Bitcoin shenanigans happening with this coin so if we can cancel out as many potential risks as possible from the start it will ease investors worries
3162[gutschy 12d] @cyptogeek thanks for your answer and you are right.Pretty shure in the team around are all highly professional. So can't wait to start with chia. :grinning:
3163[usern4me401 12d] Looks like cryptos are taking a beating today on Poloniex.  Maybe I'll be able to buy a graphics card again!
3164[qball 12d] I don’t remember if I saw this asked previously - do we need to have a wallet set up to purchase Chia?
3165[hoffmang 12d] You will likely not need a wallet set up for the initial sale
3166[7amoodiya 12d] @hoffmang  how can we store it and transfer to a different wallet ?
3167[hoffmang 12d] All will be revealed
3168[7amoodiya 12d] Awaiting patiently 😉
3169[ecoin 11d] @cyptogeek @gutschy I think it would be nice to have something like Monero's model (~1% inflation in the midterm), not excessive, and useful as an incentive to keep the network secure, and also account for some lost coins, with the latter not technically needed but useful if you want to keep some money supply statibility in the long term. It is also important to keep big farming pools out of the model to try to avoid future unexpected perverse incentives and the formation of monopoly market structures.
3170[brambones 11d] A wallet on what chain?
3171[ecoin 11d] @cyptogeek @gutschy I think it would be nice to have something like Monero's model (~1%!i(MISSING)nflation in the midterm), not excessive, and useful as an incentive to keep the network secure, and also account for some lost coins, with the latter not technically needed but useful if you want to keep some money supply statibility in the long term. It is also important to keep big farming pools out of the model to try to avoid future unexpected perverse incentives and the formation of monopoly market structures.
3172[cyptogeek 11d] @ecoin I completely agree.  Looks like the Chia team do too as they are pursuing a similar inflation rate that you suggest. There will be little incentive to join farming pools and this is being worked into the design as @ryan_singer suggested a few weeks ago
3173[zapu 11d] FYI @ashadle there is also another way to join open team: via team's landing page on keybase.io website https://keybase.io/team/chia_network.public
3174as an alternative of using command line described on chia.net website
3175[zapu 11d] if you are logged in on keybase.io you can join using a link on team's page
3176[jasonh 11d] Was there going to a test version?
3177[ashadle 10d] @zapu awesome, thank you! I’ll update the website
3178[ashadle 10d] @datdraggy what device are you on?
3179[vladmir 10d] is chia based on ERC-20?
3180[datdraggy 10d] @ashadle  LG G6 Android 7 Chrome
3181[cyptogeek 10d] @vladmir No, you will be able to buy with USD, ETH or BTC
3182[raj7 9d] How is inflation going to work in Chia?
3183[raj7 9d] inelastic currency supply and an inability to control illicit financial flows is one of the problems with abstract currencies today and im excited to know the details of Chia's economic model.
3184[menkent 9d] @raj7  I think I have read there will be a low inflation first to became 0 and the coin will be more untraceable than bitcoin.
3185[usern4me401 9d] @Vladmir no, this is not based on ERC-20.
3186[raj7 9d] @menkent @cyptogeek how is the inflation rate going to be decided? is there a centralized institution that does it?
3187[menkent 9d] @raj7 No. Who decides it is Bram and his experts in economics science.
3188[galo19 9d] will chia transactions be fast? like fast as XRP?
3189[raj7 9d] @menkent so bascially its centralized if they decide it. hmm.
3190[cyptogeek 9d] @galo19 5 minute block times. But lightning network will make it instantaneous
3191[cyptogeek 9d] @raj7 I don't think @bramcohen  will whimsically decide inflation rates. It will most likely be well planned in advance and made transparent from the start. @bramcohen doesn't want hardforks so a set in stone inflation rate will be most likely
3192to put it in perspective - annual worldwide population growth is about 1.09% (and falling slowly) Chia's inflation rate is going to be 1/4 of that and falling too so Chia per person will be deflating for a while (like 100 years and that's only because population growth may stop)
3193[menkent 9d] Chia's inflation rate over time will move asymptotically down to a fixed small rate every year that everyone will know and be able to calculate indefinitely. Bram has mentioned earlier that there are some security related reasons to not fully abandon farmer rewards as bitcoin does today. I'd say that the desire to have very small inflation is driven by keeping farming incentives well aligned and not a desire to inflate
3194
3195to put it in perspective - annual worldwide population growth is about 1.09%!((MISSING)and falling slowly) Chia's inflation rate is going to be 1/4 of that and falling too so Chia per person will be deflating for a while (like 100 years and that's only because population growth may stop)
3196[menkent 9d] Said by @hoffmang
3197[menkent 9d] A lot of days ago
3198[bramcohen 9d] We at Chia just had our company offsite. Lots of going over technical stuff unconference style
3199[cyptogeek 8d] @bramcohen Do you have any crumbs to share? Any exciting ideas or gems you and the team are brewing up?
3200[bramcohen 8d] Mostly it's more technical color on the same stuff: new consensus algorithm, bls signatures, precursors,  cleaned up transactions and chiascript with merkleization. Will have some more concrete details on the vdf soon though and will have an implementation contest
3201[bramcohen 8d] Going to try to 'upstream' a bunch of the chiascript features into a new scripting language for Bitcoin. We'll see how that goes. Also going to try to upstream bls and precursors. Not holding my breath there
3202[tommytp1 8d] anybody konw how to join the CHIA pre sale？
3203[tommytp1 8d] how to join the ico?
3204[psutter 8d] @bramcohen what do you think of simpliciity?
3205[ryan_singer 8d] Hi @tommytp1 there won't be a ICO. We're working with counsel and regulators on a path to a legitimate public offering in the US. Msg me privately if you'd like to talk about it.
3206[hoffmang 8d] But to quote Three Amigos, "ees like an ICO."
3207[ryan_singer 8d] Lol
3208[psutter 8d] @bramcohen never mind - just got the notes about Simplicity  from the faq. enjoy fc18
3209[psutter 8d] @hoffmang the new compliance hotness is to restrict to accredited investors and avoid the ICO label afaik (a sober direction)
3210[hoffmang 8d] indeed but of course our goal is to not restrict to accredited hence a little of the duality. Plus there is some marketing value to calling ti a "kind of ICO"
3211[cyptogeek 8d] So will the offering be open to outside the US still?
3212[ryan_singer 8d] @cyptogeek : We hope to take investors from anywhere that can invest in US companies. That usually means anywhere not on the OFAC list
3213[cyptogeek 8d] Fantastic. Got me sweating there. Phew
3214[critjo 7d] @ryan_singer glad to hear it won’t be ICO & looking forward to investing properly.  Chia team’s creditability has gone up a few pts.  Thanks for clarifying.
3215[cyptogeek 7d] @ryan_singer so does that mean you will only be able to invest with USD or is Bitcoin still on the table? As a UK citezen would you be requiring a signup process to a brokerage firm?
3216[rustymonk 7d] @cyptogeek, I think the team mentioned BTC, USD, LTC as options
3217[rustymonk 7d] What do you mean by "signup process to a brokerage firm"?
3218[cyptogeek 7d] @rustymonk Yes but it looks like Chia are avoiding potential backlash that the US regulators will be enforcing. In the not to far future US law enforcement will be coming down hard on ICO'S. It makes sense that an ICO will not be used to fund Chia development. The alternative is a stock purchase where you can buy from a brockerage firm. If so, I'd want to register and verify identification early so that I'm prepared to buy nearer the time.
3219[cyptogeek 7d] And will this brockerage firm accept BTC?
3220[rustymonk 7d] It's all rather tricky, @cyptogeek , isn't it? Elastos (ELA) used crowdsale model in January. As far as I understand US citizens were allowed to participate, like everyone else. It was a rather smooth crowdsale, with good KYC and no rush. Only Chinese residents were not allowed
3221[7amoodiya 7d] @rustymonk is it only in the US that applies these regulations  or does it also applies for internationally?
3222@cyptogeek brokerage firm? Going down that route would mean stock and I've never dealt with that. I hope it won't complicate things further.
3223[gmtaylor 7d] @ashadle this page has some isseues in chrome https://chia.net/news/index.html#bitcoinexchange
3224[ashadle 7d] Thanks @gmtaylor I created an issue on github https://github.com/Chia-Network/website/issues/126
3225[kitano 6d] I would like to study how to program new apps on top of chia network
3226[kitano 6d] will there be any document regarding the programming capablity of chia?
3227[rustymonk 6d] @kitano As far as I understand, anything that could work on top of Bitcoin could be applied to Chia in the future. Plus, Bram and co are working on a script for Chia-specific smart transactions. So, my advice would be to study Bitcoin open source projects for now
3228[hoffmang 6d] Development on top of Lightning should port extremely easily to Chia if not just working. Bram mentioned that there will be some documentation coming on Chia script that is a much improved Bitcoin script also
3229[poson 5d] Chia chia chia chia chia
3230[poson 5d] Can’t wait to farm chias
3231[mdoan 5d] @bramcohen will chia do some marketing at some point?
3232[mdoan 5d] @brambones will there be any type of smart contracts running inside the network?
3233[cyptogeek 5d] @mdoan Chia have launched a twitter and Facebook page. I personally think at this stage it's only worthwhile posting stuff when Chia has something to say. Momentum will build closer to public sale
3234[cyptogeek 5d] Raiblocks aka Nano has been pumped at being the next Bitcoin. A few respectable developers have come out to say how good it is. So its caught my ear. Are they wrong? Is this something that comes close to Chia or is Chia going to beat it through better decentralisation?
3235[feduby 5d] raiblocks is not much like bitcoin or chia, it is more comparable to iota and surged due to everyone realising iota is shit. it does seem quite good but is, as are most of these dag coins i think, more vulnerable to certain attacks. They're at least quite open about this as you can see here: https://github.com/nanocurrency/raiblocks/wiki/Attacks
3236[cyptogeek 5d] @feduby thanks. Seems as though many problems haven't even been properly tested so it's too early to say whether the defences will work under larger traffic.
3237[mdoan 5d] @cyptogeek are you working for chia?
3238[cyptogeek 5d] @mdoan No, just an enthusiast
3239[cryptocrv 5d] hi, joined a while ago but took me a while to read the whole discussion. i would like to be part of it - shall i go and apply for a job via chia.net?
3240[hoffmang 5d] yes
3241[critjo 5d] @hoffmang will chia eventually be looking to fill remote roles other than developers?  My focus is Finance & id rather work for a company that’s shaping the future.
3242[hoffmang 5d] Too early to say on the other department fronts
3243[cyptogeek 4d] @critjo From what I gather. The main priority is developers. Preferably local to Chia HQ, but remote working is not out of the question.
3244[hoffmang 4d] Developers have large location flexibility
3245[helloblockchain 4d] hello I am the admin of  RChain chinese community
3246[helloblockchain 4d] I am Andy Li
3247[bramcohen 4d] Hi Andy
3248[bramcohen 4d] @cryptocrv Please do apply on the web site
3249[bramcohen 4d] I got a great idea for how to do nonoutsourceability the other day. We'll likely be using bullet proofs
3250[bramcohen 4d] Graftroot is definitely a great idea and we're going to be going with that
3251[ajari 3d] Hello :)
3252[lvcivs 3d] Will the Chia testnet be up before the coin sale in summer?
3253[cyptogeek 3d] @Ivcivs The sale's sole reason is to raise money for development. So there will be nothing functioning beforehand
3254[frankrbruno 2d] Whad I miss anything good??
3255[frankrbruno 2d] They have been working me like a slave at work so I haven't checked in for a while
3256[cyptogeek 2d] @frankrbruno The Chia team has some additional members and @bramcohen and team have been hard at work on BLS signatures etc. The Chia website is now on Github, so if there is something you want to change on the Chia.net website you can do a pull request.
3257[frankrbruno 2d] @oldcryptogeek cryptogtha is for the info...
3258[frankrbruno 2d] No dates yet? Any ICO news... scrolled up quite a bit and read about something concerning the ICO but it was a little confusing...
3259[frankrbruno 2d] Has the market cap been announced yet?
3260[cyptogeek 2d] No cap, near zero inflation. Public sale end of June. It's not an ICO as you have to go through KYC plus other limitations. So if your able to buy US stocks from your country of residence, you'll be fine.
3261[psutter 2d] no market cap announced yet either
3262[michealhe 21h] Can I use paypal to buy chia？
3263[hoffmang 15h]   The market cap has not been announced.
3264[jmd3924 4h] I thought market cap == circulating token supply * price per token. So how can one announce or decide what a market cap is? Or am I using a different definition of 'market cap'?
3265[zapu 4h] I guess if it's an ICO and you decide price for each coin and how much coin you are going to sell, you get the "market cap"
3266[jmd3924 4h] Ah, that makes sense in the case of an ICO. Thanks.[zapu 4h] but chia is not ICO