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1Dean (BetKing Admin), [23/05/2019 at 8:29:51 PM]:
2Will wait until a few investors join before posting or until people start discussing
3
4Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:03:41 AM]:
5hi dean. i read through your email and want to start the conversation here. my tldr; is that: site is not going very well but still can make annually $680k profit. but you think it's not worth the time and you want to close it down. I personally either want compensation if you decide to close it or you keep it running until we have our initial investment back. otherwise it's a clear scam. I understand perfectly how it is to try and build software and then not get many clients but still even if it generates profit you need to keep it up or reimbursh investors.
6
7Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:06:47 AM]:
8"but still can make annually $680k profit"
9expected based on the previous 3 months profit yes. But that is split 50/50 with bankroll investors and the buyback pools to buy back tokens with.
10also, 1/3 of the profit came from 1 player, who has stopped playing. We can't hope that we get one highroller every few months, it's not sustainable and not guaranteed.
11this weeks traffic is already very poor compared to what we were seeing and that is a concern.
12
13Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:07:42 AM]:
14it may be a concert but during the ICO you never said that you need an X amount of profit to run the website. What is the cutoff limit that you are personally not interested in running it?
15
16Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:09:17 AM]:
17" I personally either want compensation if you decide to close it or you keep it running until we have our initial investment back. "
18there would be no compensation if closed. The business raised funds, used them to try and grow and see a return, we didn't see a return and the site pretty much died. Zero profit in a year. What we did with new platform was one last attempt idea to try and turn it round, which looked like it was working, but it's still quite a fragile situation.
19If it's the same by end of the year then it's pretty safe to assume that the business failed and failed businesses don't stay open.
20
21Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:09:45 AM]:
22that was stated in the document I emailed and also pointed out that we should discuss that
23
24Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:10:19 AM]:
25failed businesses don't generate $680k profit. What is the current rate of expenses? if the software is done then maintenance would not be expensive for sure
26
27Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:10:34 AM]:
28we haven't generated 680k profit though have we
29
30Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:11:05 AM]:
31what are exactly the money that you have left and what are the running costs?
32
33Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:11:31 AM]:
34let's say we are in silicon valley. there are many companies/startups that are running for years without profit. the ones that do have profit they just don't close down, otherwise the SEC intervenes.
35
36Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:11:53 AM]:
37so how are the reserves and i didn't read anywhere about running costs. i am a dev so server costs cannot be high.
38
39Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:12:20 AM]:
40again, as explained, there are no funds of the initial ico left and the running costs currntly, now that we have had to let go of all stuff,s top all marketing etc is only around £1000 a month
41
42Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:13:07 AM]:
43this is far different than a silicone valley business with vc money and contacts and no one bought shares in a company remember so the SEC has nothing to be concerned with here
44
45Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:13:45 AM]:
46so you know how much a server can cost and the extra stuff like cloudflare/github etc etc, that's only about 1000 a month depending on traffic, tests etc
47
48Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:14:20 AM]:
49yes 1k is reasonable burn rate
50
51Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:14:42 AM]:
52but if there are projected profits for the year you can't just close withou any compensation
53
54Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:14:58 AM]:
55just because $100k is not enough for you personally because you are a rich bitcoiner.. i hope you understand this
56
57Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:15:05 AM]:
58there are some responsibilities
59
60Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:15:15 AM]:
61if you are negative in profit then yes.
62
63Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:15:24 AM]:
64The point of this group was to figure out how we proceed to actually make sure all investors get their money back (I'm not looking to get the $1 million i put in personally as the biggest investor) and not for people to make demands of payments. Anyone who is doing that will be removed
65
66Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:16:04 AM]:
67I don't think kicking people out would make your business better.
68
69Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:16:31 AM]:
70yes but that is only based on the new launch, if we look at the year before that the projected profit would have been closer to zero, so as I said it's a critical turning point, we want to at least keep it going how it has been in the past few months or improve it and we need help to do so. we need steady traffic mainly from smaller depositing players, not relying on a highroller every few months
71
72Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:17:56 AM]:
73well I hope you can keep traffic coming and I trust you will not close a business turning profit. Noone invests in companies that would close down because the profit is not high enough. It is a given when investors invest that if the company can generate any kind of profit it doesn't shut down
74
75Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:17:58 AM]:
76I just told you I lost $1 million here. 
77It's not about what I feel is enough, but we all have to realise there is oportunity cost here. If the site was making $100 a year should I work for the rest of my life running it and give you the $100 a year? Or is it smarter to move on to something else and try and make money there, which if was successful then we could work a way out for BKB investors to get compensation
78
79Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:18:46 AM]:
80what happens if we make $1000 from now until december? stay open?
81
82Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:20:01 AM]:
83no that doesn't cover expenses. that's why I was asking what is "your" number? if you make $100k? is that ok?
84
85Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:20:11 AM]:
86how do you decide on this?
87
88Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:20:22 AM]:
89it actually would, it's why this group is already doesn't have all bkb investors in it. There isn't any point in inviting people who are going to waste time and not provide anything productive for us to go on
90
91Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:20:53 AM]:
92I've wasted a lot of time already on people like that and I don't intend to keep doing it
93
94Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:21:27 AM]:
95I'm not looking to decide. It's open for discussion with everyone here.
96
97Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:21:40 AM]:
98I don't think anybody will sit here and understand that if I make valid points you kick me out and that's ok.
99
100Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:22:10 AM]:
101I never said I was going to kick you out
102
103Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:22:38 AM]:
104yes exactly and this is my input. you need to decide on a number that can keep the site up. obviously it needs to cover expenses but if it's larger than X you can't just shut it down and we lose everything.
105
106CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 1:22:50 AM]:
107Maybe it would help as a starting point to talk about a risk appetite to keeping it going
108
109CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 1:23:34 AM]:
110To me there are optimisations available to make the business more profitable but let's get a sense of scale
111
112Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:25:02 AM]:
113Well there is the time cost too remember. If the site were to cover all expenses of what keeps it up, server etc, and it makes $100 on top of that. Then it's not going to recover anything for anyone and it still takes time of answering support and processing tx etc. So that would clearly show that it isn't worth it.
114
115Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:25:41 AM]:
116If after all expenses we were able to use $100,000 a year to buy back tokens and it's not taking much time to do so then obviously it's better to leave it open
117
118Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:26:22 AM]:
119but we have contradicting interests here. obviously for us even buying back $20k/year is more beneficial than shutting down and getting 0
120
121Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:26:33 AM]:
122If hat 100k a year means me spending 14 hours a day on it then maybe not, becauce that still takes 20 years to just break even for everyone and that to me is a massive waste of opportunity where we could be looking to do something that can recover faster than 20 years
123
124Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:27:26 AM]:
125in investing in anything you have to take in to consideration the risk. 20K a years is too little and it would in fact be closed and everyone would have to accept that that was the risk and move on
126
127Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:27:35 AM]:
128and taking some years of work to give money back to investors if you burnt through $5M of funds really does sound the ethical way to go
129
130Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:27:50 AM]:
131not 100 years though
132
133Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:28:01 AM]:
134and working for free for 100 years
135
136Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:28:09 AM]:
137so the problem is that you here define what is the risk and what you are willing to sacrifice either we get something or 0. you have the knife and you have the mellon as we say.
138
139Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:28:25 AM]:
140it's not for free. we gave you $5M ..
141
142Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:28:41 AM]:
143This isn't getting us anywhere though is it?
144
145Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:29:05 AM]:
146This is you basically saying I need to work for free for the rest of my life for you and that's that
147
148Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:29:17 AM]:
149no matter how much profit the business is making
150
151Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:29:40 AM]:
152I am basically saying that even if there is little profit you need to keep the site up to repay us. You can also shut it down *while* it is profitable but this is borderline scam
153
154Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:30:54 AM]:
155I also didn't say I was looking to shut it down today, far from it, I said we need to give it a reasonable time and see what we think is the right move based on the profit by then. So waiting until Jan 2020 and seeing where we are then is reasonable.
156
157CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 1:31:19 AM (24/05/19, 1:31:40 AM)]:
158My view is slightly different.  It needs to have a meaningful profit, enough to support some staff (wash its face).  which to me is 200k+ at least for the next rolling 12 months
159
160Darren G, [24/05/2019 at 1:31:19 AM]:
161Aris, I'm not sure you're actually contributing anything useful here.
162
163CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 1:32:16 AM]:
164Getting the business to a fundamentally profitable place within 12 months is a foundation for the future
165
166CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 1:32:31 AM]:
167It also means Dean can draw a salary to support himself
168
169CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 1:32:38 AM]:
170And keep it going
171
172Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:33:49 AM]:
173@Aris, as the email said, this email only went to people who had bought at least 50,000 BKB (I won;t say how much anyone actually bought, that's up to them) so you can't claim anyone here is not an investor
174
175CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 1:34:13 AM]:
176This
177
178Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:34:46 AM]:
179the risk is when you invest in unprofitable businesses. I am trying to set a threshold of what is the minimum profit that we consider the business profitable and it should stay open. there is no such number now that leaves dear Dean say effectively "hey I am not working for less than $200k per year guys sorry" which is just not enough for me. Numbers.
180
181Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:34:47 AM]:
182so $5000 roughly minimum investment. It helps keep out people that would likely be wasting our time or not fully understand the situation or have no real expertise to help. I also excluded some people I knew would just be negative and cause us to waste time.
183
184Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:35:27 AM]:
185yes @DeanBK but you only know if there are people here that are your fiends. nobody can verify who is an investor but you. as I said, you have all the cards (or dices) :)
186
187CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 1:36:16 AM]:
188This starting point is a waste of time
189
190CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 1:36:34 AM]:
191Not everything is a sham
192
193Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:36:39 AM (24/05/19, 1:36:46 AM)]:
194well now you are being paranoid
195
196Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:36:57 AM]:
197there's no one in this group right now that I have ever even met
198
199CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 1:37:08 AM]:
200Aris what is your minimum?
201
202Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:37:39 AM]:
203I don't know CCN, it doesn't depend on me. If I have gotten $5M and my site was profitable I would run it indefinately to repay back probably.
204
205CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 1:37:53 AM]:
206He doesn't have £5m anymore
207
208CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 1:38:07 AM]:
209It's gone
210
211Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:38:48 AM]:
212I know. So if I have burnt through a lot of money but still the business was a little bit profitable I wouldn't shut it down. Just because I would feel very obliged to pay back investors after I failed to make a good business.
213
214CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 1:39:13 AM]:
215OK so what's a little bit profit
216
217CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 1:39:15 AM]:
218To you
219
220Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:40:08 AM]:
221does it matter? Dean should come up with a number. that's what I am saying from the beggining. did you read?
222
223Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:40:10 AM]:
224but it was not profitable for a year and a half almost, it's only made some in past few months but it's not a guarntee giving the current situation that that means it will stay making that or be a realistic projection of profit to come over the next years. Hence why the group was created so that we can discuss practical ways of trying to make sure it does
225
226Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:40:52 AM]:
227Btw why did you stop tthe sports betting? it was there right? i pretty much remember wanting to bet on boxing matches but i think i didn't
228
229Darren G, [24/05/2019 at 1:41:06 AM]:
230the reasons why are in the document
231
232Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:41:11 AM]:
233^
234
235Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:41:14 AM]:
236or formula 1. the software is very easy to make and you can just copy paste bwin odds and take even a bit more % out of it
237
238Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:41:39 AM]:
239yea dice will never cut it to a very profitable business. and that's not what we invested in. it was a sports betting poker etc site
240
241Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:42:11 AM]:
242"what we" are you sure? It was dice alone that made the site 7400 bitcoin, not sports
243
244Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:42:31 AM]:
245"the software is very easy to make" want to help make it and we can add it to the site if that's the case?
246
247Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:42:56 AM]:
248well since i didn't burn through ico money, i would help if i get paid. and no it's not the same
249
250Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:43:06 AM]:
251"copy paste bwin odds and take even a bit more % out of it" maybe that's where I went wrong, the first time I tried that I used william hills odds. The second time I used pinnacles
252
253Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:43:27 AM]:
254the 3rd time I used a 3rd party provider. all 3 times we lost to sharp players
255
256Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:43:32 AM]:
257well they need to be updated too. i know a lot about sport odds btw
258
259Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:43:59 AM]:
260we were updating them every minute or less
261
262Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:44:02 AM]:
263you need to have some algo that updates or limits the funds so non of the 3 outcomes gets overloaded
264
265Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:44:32 AM]:
266or you can get the market avg. i still to this date have code on my pc that is gathering football sports odds from 5-10 different sites
267
268Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:44:35 AM]:
269like a crawler
270
271Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:45:48 AM]:
272"Soon after launch we will add sports betting, more casino games, poker games and tournaments and native mobile apps." this is from the ICO ann
273
274Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:45:56 AM]:
275i said in the doc and email that I am not expecting anyone here to work for free. Though general advice/direction and voting for free would be appreciated. If you feel you would be able to help create a profitable sports book software for us you can email me your cv and we can review it
276
277Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:46:39 AM]:
278reviewing the CV of investors in case a failing startup wants to hire them it's quite funny :)
279
280CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 1:47:35 AM]:
281Aris suggest you take a break
282
283CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 1:47:46 AM]:
284You are coming across as emotional and angry
285
286CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 1:47:55 AM]:
287Which isn't going to lead us anywhere
288
289Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:48:10 AM]:
290yes I will.although im probably the only one with startup experience and sports bettting odds and rational but good luck. i'll check back in a few months to see if we are still at 0.
291
292CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 1:49:04 AM]:
293I'll be back later but  I think as a starting point Dean it'd be helpful what want to see by year end to keep it going
294
295CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 1:49:19 AM]:
296Appreciate $100 profit doesn't cut it
297
298CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 1:49:22 AM]:
299So what does?
300
301Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:50:45 AM]:
302removed aris, clearly not going to be any benefit to us
303
304Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:55:32 AM]:
305Well I'm more thinking of time here than anything.
306If the site is making $100k a year (as in, we can use $100k to buy back tokens from investors) and it requires very little work (minimal support, topping up wallets now and again) then yes that would imo still be better than closing. It wouldn't really get back everyones initial investment though.
307
308If it was the same but I had to work 14 hours every day on it and all that work still wasn't getting us any more profit and I wasn't being paid then I don't think it is good to stay open. Because to me, with at least dev and crypto experience and a number of ideas ouside gambling, that it would be better to work on something else that may see a much bigger return for the time invested and if it was something successful then there may be possibilities of compensating initial BKB holders that way.
309
310The aim here though is to discuss options and come up with a plan or strategy on the next steps to take so that we actually have a chance of seeing more profit on BetKing and not really thinking of closing anyway
311
312CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 2:04:42 AM]:
313OK thats a helpful perspective
314
315Nicola, [24/05/2019 at 3:24:37 AM (24/05/19, 3:25:07 AM)]:
316Hi Dean. Thanks for the transparency and for giving it another try. I'll toss here my thoughts (that are mainly inspired by another dice website: just-dice):
317- Bitcoin is currently showing volatility and people are interested. So I'd be optimistic on the possibility for betking to recover.
318- I think that whales are quite important for dice websites, so everything on these websites should entice them to play, allowing them to high-roll and feel the vibe. At the same time they give a lot of advertising.
319- I believe the less choices, the better. Ideally just three options to spend money and enjoy time on the website. But maybe only one with Bitcoin.
320
321Nicola, [24/05/2019 at 3:28:46 AM]:
322That said, I feel we miss some key info:
323- how the competition is making it? Primedice? Bitdice?
324- What are the channels leading people to play on the website? Twitter? Ads? Word of mouth?
325- What does the public want? Are Chinese people playing?
326
327Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 3:34:27 AM]:
328" I think that whales are quite important for dice websites," yes but we can't rely on them just randomly coming. We need steady traffic and ways to at least find and attract whales.
329
330Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 3:35:11 AM]:
331"- how the competition is making it? Primedice? Bitdice?"
332i don't know. I feel I've tried everything at this point. I don't see any real differences and there's not really anything on any other site that we haven't done before. Keep in mind we were the biggest dice site for 2 years after just dice closed.
333
334Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 3:35:42 AM]:
335"What are the channels leading people to play on the website? Twitter? Ads? Word of mouth?"
336as far as I can see we cant do paid ads on twitter, facebook, google because we dont have a licence, though still some other sites get around this somehow
337
338Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 3:36:02 AM]:
339"What does the public want?" wish I know, they don't exactly express much opinion
340
341Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 3:36:33 AM]:
342I can post screenshots from google analytics, you can see from that how terrible traffic is
343
344traffic stats by channel since feb 14th
345
346traffic stats by channel for past week
347
348traffic stats by referrinf sites since feb 14th
349
350traffic stats by referrinf sites since past week
351
352Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 3:41:31 AM]:
353so 3-400 visits per day, very low for any website really
354
355Nicola, [24/05/2019 at 3:43:25 AM]:
356I know we're saying opposite things. My point is, *when* they come, they should find an attractive environment that keeps them playing. Usually, high rolling, but also "personal praising" or VIP-feeling. Doesn't need to be necessarily sycophants, but just acknowledging them. It's a bit like those monetizing models for apps, where it's free-to-play, but when you start being lured in the game, they give thousands of options for spending your money.
357
358Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 3:43:56 AM]:
359yeah agree with that
360
361by country since feb 14th
362
363Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 3:57:20 AM]:
364I don't mind giving access to analytics data if anyone here specialises in seo/marketing
365
366Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 3:57:54 AM]:
367i'm only familiar with basically what is in the screenshots and to me it just shows small traffic and refferrals that don't convert to depositing players
368
369Nicola, [24/05/2019 at 4:31:39 AM]:
370Thanks for all this data. Not sure if Indonesia and Nigeria could be new markets. I will try to think to some easy and practical idea and I will follow the discussion here. I wish I had some useful contacts that help, but I don't.
371
372Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 4:32:25 AM]:
373nigeria will mainly be because a new-ish site got the name betking.com and started running a fiat sportsbook there
374
375Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 4:32:50 AM]:
376indonesia are usually made up of people looking for faucet to get free btc, not really depositing players often
377
378Nicola, [24/05/2019 at 4:40:18 AM]:
379Another thing. Please try to not over-stress over this Dean. Apparently you worked a lot, you tried many things and also, possibly, you may feel the responsibility for what wasn't working. However, too much of stress is not productive, it's actually harmful. Just ignore those "scam allegations", they are worth as much as the paper they're written on. On the other side, if you think you did some mistake, well, that's part of the game, and not repeating those is basically the only thing you can achieve (and many people actually never do).
380
381Nicola, [24/05/2019 at 4:41:43 AM]:
382If you were a poker player, you surely know how tilt is bad and how much reviewing yourself is important. Just that. But then, when you play, you need to be continuously open-minded.
383
384Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 4:43:30 AM]:
385thanks, i have let the stress get to me a lot more than I should
386
387Garnett, [24/05/2019 at 4:51:48 AM]:
388Hey Dean, just had a chance to review the doc and catch up. 
389
390Thanks for taking the time to bring us together to discuss. It’s a tough spot and there are hard calls to make. Your lawyers make a good case for shutting down and I appreciate that you’re considering alternatives first. 
391
392I’m happy to share my personal views and opinions, but I have no market data or analytics to back them up. I’m also happy to provide my business insight fwiw.
393
394Garnett, [24/05/2019 at 4:55:04 AM]:
395Personal opinions - Being stateside, I can tell you that with increased scrutiny over IRS, SEC and other regulatory oversight, there are a lot of folks that appear to be taking less risks. The more folks learn that bitcoin is not anonymous, the less risky they seem. 
396
397It is illegal to gamble online in many/most areas of the US (last time I checked) and as such any USA player would be less likely to use the site. I suspect an account-less, anonymous service would give all players that value privacy some peace of mind. Perhaps with monero or zcash, etc
398
399Garnett, [24/05/2019 at 4:57:40 AM]:
400From a business perspective, the first thing I would do personally is to seek out a market partner to survey your suspected target market and just straight up ask them “where/why do you play?”.  A good partner could help with the right questions and rewards. A lot of times, it’s as simple as asking... but that’s not easy when you can’t get in front of your customers to ask
401
402Garnett, [24/05/2019 at 4:58:51 AM]:
403I know a some guys that run a specialized/boutique firm that markets fantasy sports. I can reach out to them as well for some feedback/insight
404
405Garnett, [24/05/2019 at 5:00:11 AM]:
406Also, not promoting anything shady here. Just bringing this perspective up as a potential customer. Perhaps there are other customers that can legally gamble online but do not choose to do so since they cannot maintain privacy on chain
407
408Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 5:01:07 AM]:
409thanks for that. Agree on the US part. We actually block US ip's from depositing/playing
410
411Michael m, [24/05/2019 at 5:01:30 AM]:
412Can u unblock them or there legal issue with that
413
414Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 5:02:07 AM]:
415in the doc when i mention building a network of sites, an advantage there is we can try new things and the first protorype I started working on doesn't have accounts or signup, just login url like we had in 2014 like just-dice.com has. Though you can add username/password if you like
416
417Garnett, [24/05/2019 at 5:02:32 AM]:
418If you run on-chain/dapp, it will be hard to maintain that type of geofilter. But I get the reason for doing it
419
420Garnett, [24/05/2019 at 5:04:24 AM]:
421Even something as simple as letting users buy bkb with anon coins could help with the privacy side, so long as no kyc is needed. I would assume the privacy advocates would already be using aliases and vpns. But bitcoin is super traceable
422
423Michael m, [24/05/2019 at 5:04:27 AM]:
424I understand wanting to leave business behind if no profit made or not enough but my one gripe is 6 months seems to little of a time to judge when you already said in your briefing that  1/3rd of the profit was from 1 player, which shows how much variance a 6 month window could have
425
426Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 5:04:32 AM]:
427I block US because they didn;t (not sure if still same) allow people to gamble online. Almost all sites block US.
428I block UK too because you need a licence from UKGC to allow players from UK. I can't advertise specifically here either.
429
430Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 5:05:23 AM]:
431yes but we've been open since september 2017 and only just got that. If we were still making that in 6 months then yeah that would be alright, but what if we make nothing from now until then?
432
433Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 5:06:05 AM]:
434is there anything illegal about players betting on on chain dapps? there's no way to know where the players bet from and I wouldn't be processing the bets myself on any servers
435
436Garnett, [24/05/2019 at 5:07:25 AM]:
437If it isn’t owned and controlled by a company or individual, then it’s a huge grey area in the states. IE, if it’s open source and nobody claims responsibility for the project. Lots of uncertainty so far though since we don’t have legal precedent yet
438
439Garnett, [24/05/2019 at 5:07:50 AM]:
440If a company controls it, then it’s fair game for legal death
441
442Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 5:08:07 AM]:
443and just in case there was any confusion, the network of sites idea didn't specifically mean on chain, they could still be off chain like bet king
444
445Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 5:08:54 AM]:
446i think that's a problem with eos on chain, my understanding could be way off, but it seems that even though it's on chain it's still the companies server that is processing bets? Bitcoin/eth on chain don't have that problem
447
448Garnett, [24/05/2019 at 5:09:39 AM]:
449If, for instance, someone were to grab some open source on chain betting/oracle code and spin up a contract on chain that uses BKB without consulting you, getting permission, paying fees... then there’s eff all you can do about it
450
451Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 5:10:38 AM]:
452that's true
453
454Michael m, [24/05/2019 at 5:11:31 AM]:
455Bitcoin talk mess needs to be cleared out or fought with, That is where a good portion of former business was lost, when the trolls and haters took over and hurt reputation. Couple ways we can about it, do nothing and let it continue, have investors fight back with more good words than haters can say bad, or Dean you try and answer all their stupid questions without flipping out :).   Also another idea is if you were ok with It Dean I could run my own sportsbook through betking and have threads on forums, where I settle with people via betking tip function
456
457Garnett, [24/05/2019 at 5:12:01 AM (24/05/19, 5:12:25 AM)]:
458I guess it depends on what BKB is being used for. If it isn’t integrated into the operation of a casino and instead was just being used as a financial-like instrument (like Maker/DAI) then you would be fine running that dApp as a company
459
460Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 5:15:16 AM]:
461"Dean you try and answer all their stupid questions without flipping out"
462I did though, many many times. It just gets drowned out because they bury my posts with another 20 shit posts and then misquote things i said. Every single concern raised has been asnwered more than once by me
463
464Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 5:15:45 AM]:
465"I could run my own sportsbook through betking and have threads on forums, where I settle with people via betking tip function"
466certainly feel free to try it. I'm not sure what downside there is?
467
468Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 5:16:47 AM]:
469well, it's BKT now, and the point of it is to get fee discounts on the platform, reward players with it, allow bets with it and we also use profit to buy it back
470
471Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 5:17:11 AM]:
472it would be good to find other uses for to drive demand for it though so more people, not just site profit, buy it
473
474John Deer, [24/05/2019 at 5:17:53 AM]:
475Hey,
476
477just going to get caught up on this thread and then i'll join in on the discussion
478
479Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 5:18:04 AM]:
480hey, no problem
481
482Garnett, [24/05/2019 at 5:20:00 AM (24/05/19, 5:20:12 AM)]:
483Other options here would be to sell the business which will be hard considering financials and brand damage re:bitcoin talk. Also partnering/merging with other platforms might be attractive. Most of the degens I know are looking for more and more in-depth... degenery. I keep hearing about HRXO and I suspect there are others that might be getting traction.
484
485Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 5:20:13 AM]:
486btw, unrelated to betking but this is just the sort of thing I was meaning with lost oportunity cost:
487http://slither.io/ very simple multiplayer snake like game, makes $100,000 a day
488Insane, just via ads and merch on a free to play site.
489Obviously there's marketing and stuff but the actual game is so easy to do something like that.
490Thought about something like surviv.io (a 2d battle royal game like PUBG). That makes a lt on ads too. Be good to mix that sort of thing with crypto
491
492Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 5:22:37 AM]:
493partnering/merging. In the doc I mention looking to licence software to other sites, think playtech but in btc space. Though they are obviously leagues ahead of what we can offer.
494I messaged about 200 exchanges and other btc casinos (who didn't have dice) but got very few replies. It's a shame because even taking 10% commissioin on profit would add up huge with only a few clients
495
496Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 5:38:48 AM]:
497"Other options here would be to sell the business which will be hard considering financials and brand damage"
498i tried to sell years ago when we had a real good rep and were making money. I didn't really have any contacts though and it was just forum posts and an ad on site
499
500CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 5:50:21 AM]:
501The bitcointalk thread is x really good point I had lost site of
502
503John Deer, [24/05/2019 at 7:41:17 AM]:
504First off, Dean, I appreciate you putting this group together along with the the recovery plan. This probably would have been a good idea before the EOS token launch. 
505
506I think we have a few problems:
507
508With the new token model there was some form of what I would call dilution. The conversion rate from BKB to BKT should have been much higher. There was no real market for the token and you were able to buy it up or bet mine it very cheaply. I'm not sure on exact numbers but I think I had around $40k worth of bkb left after selling in a couple of buybacks and I think I was able to purchase or bet mine an equivalent amount of BKT for less than $1k.
509
510John Deer, [24/05/2019 at 7:41:49 AM]:
511It is going to be hard to get help from BKB investors for this reason.
512
513John Deer, [24/05/2019 at 7:43:54 AM]:
514I think there has been some reputational damage from the bitcointalk forum and from disgruntled past investors. I recently saw a thread on twitter from a high profile poker player. I also don't think this Nigerian Betking.com site is doing us any favors.
515
516John Deer, [24/05/2019 at 7:49:20 AM]:
517I really don't know what separates some of these high volume sites from us. I think BetKing has a nice clean look and functionality. Maybe these forum posts are really dragging it down.
518
519John Deer, [24/05/2019 at 7:50:21 AM]:
520I did have a forum post in the works that I wanted to cover investment returns from BetKing but hadn't gotten around to posting it because I was waiting for a day when we were showing large buybacks but that hasn't been the case for the last week or two.
521
522Darren G, [24/05/2019 at 7:51:03 AM]:
523I was hoping to get a lot of the investment back through investing in the bankroll. 
524I can't see the value in the current BKT model (that doesn't mean there isn't, I just can't see it). I could see lots of value in the dividend model but I guess you changed that because of potential legal implications?
525
526John Deer, [24/05/2019 at 7:51:20 AM]:
527In hopes that it would attract more investors to generate a bankroll that could take high roller action
528
529Darren G, [24/05/2019 at 7:52:32 AM]:
530I like the idea of licensing out to exchanges, it's quite a great idea actually but how you go about doing it, I don't know
531
532John Deer, [24/05/2019 at 7:54:31 AM]:
533Licensing out seems like a great idea, I also think the concept of bet mining was also very clever
534
535John Deer, [24/05/2019 at 7:56:21 AM]:
536Anything you can tell us about that one high roller we did have? Country of origin or did you look into his activity on the blockchain or anything like that?
537
538Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 7:59:58 AM]:
539So this is the post https://twitter.com/MikeMcDonald89/status/1130435205465026560
540
541Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 8:00:32 AM]:
542Thats he head of the group looking to sue. Obviously they figured after 5 months they had no case otherwise they wouldnt post that
543
544Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 8:13:57 AM]:
545exactly the sort of shit we don't need
546
547Darren G, [24/05/2019 at 8:16:00 AM]:
548A lot of people made dumb decisions during the last crypto boom, me included. Not many are willing to take responsibility.
549
550Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 8:18:04 AM]:
55144k followers and being in poker scene too that is gonna reach a large audience that know me personally too. Worse is, he's ignored me for 5 months, due to lawyers advice, so has not kept up with the changes and never once offered any input or advice on it and I did post about the airdrop/new token a lot before we done it
552
553Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 8:40:41 AM]:
554"This probably would have been a good idea before the EOS token launch. "
555i messaged everyone before that new token launch warning and asking for feedback.
556
557Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 8:42:32 AM]:
558"With the new token model there was some form of what I would call dilution."
559i don't see it that way really. There are more of the new token, but there's only 12.8% in circulation, 25%+ will be burned in august and the rest are promotion.
560Sending tokens to 2-300,000 eos accounts with a link to site on them, what other way was there to try and reach that amount of people? A lot of those tokens went to dormant accounts that will never move them I imagine too.
561Also, now you might think you have less, but less of something is better than more of absolutely nothing
562
563Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 8:43:57 AM]:
564"It is going to be hard to get help from BKB investors for this reason." from a certain type of investor and I want to week out all the people like MIke McDonald anyway. If anyone is just going to be negative or try and ruin reputation and fuck things up for other investors then I have no interest in their opinion
565
566Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 8:46:51 AM]:
567As I stated I could just say fuck it and close the site and we all lose and have to move on. My lawyer told me to do this exact thing. There is no legal obligation here to buy any tokens back.
568But you know I don't want that. But cunts like Mike and his group make it very easy to think that way.
569
570Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 8:47:17 AM]:
571This group was to discuss how we can actually recover the funds not to complain
572
573Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 8:48:03 AM]:
574I'm off before I do something I regret. Feel free to discuss, leave feedback etc.
575
576John Deer, [24/05/2019 at 8:48:28 AM]:
577I guess what I meant by that is that maybe they were too easy to mine or buy early on. I'm not trying to be overly critical just some things I thought were posing us a problem.
578
579Michael m, [24/05/2019 at 8:56:11 AM]:
580Time can repair reputation, and there is ways to get players that if we work together we can achieve. For example investment profit has been nice, maybe someone writes a detailed write up ( someone who has profited good amount: Larger investor) put it on steemit and update it over time, some people can reach out to other players on other sites ( this method has been effective for getting a few small players, and a few investors) not everyone reads bitcointalk or knows other dice sites so when the hear about a new one they do check it sometimes
581
582Michael m, [24/05/2019 at 8:58:41 AM]:
583The reddit threeads you had Dean was there a reason you gave up on updating that
584
585Darren G, [24/05/2019 at 9:07:25 AM]:
586Not everything is going to be positive and since that negative dude this morning got kicked off, it's been a hell of a lot more positive. The honest truth is that there may not be a solution. 
587It might just be a case of carrying on for a bit as the performance has got better and see if that carries on or can be sustained with a light touch by you and if not then time to move on.
588I don't expect you to prostrate yourself like that dude did this morning.
589Hopefully we can find a way to get a return but maybe we can't.
590
591Darren G, [24/05/2019 at 9:09:55 AM]:
592I do believe in and trust you, I wouldn't have most of my crypto wealth tied up in your bankroll hoping to make back some of the many losses I made by making a lot of bad decisions in 2017. (I'm not saying this was a bad decision but the amount I put in compared to what I had, was)
593
594Garnett, [24/05/2019 at 9:10:49 AM (24/05/19, 9:11:00 AM)]:
595Yeah, I agree. It’s not an easy topic but I suspect we are all rational here. I also suspect there’s a lot of personal collateral damage right now for you @DeanBK via the Twitter post. 
596
597Best to let things cool off and brainstorm for a bit. Let jackasses be jackasses and remember that emotional business is like emotional gambling.  That shit will blow over. Don’t take the bait, because that’s exactly what that shit is.
598
599Garnett, [24/05/2019 at 9:14:21 AM]:
600Most of the syndicate groups I was in have turned into chum filled shark tanks for lawyers looking to sue the shit out of any failed ICO with a bank account left standing. 
601
602I’m all for legal action against intentional fraud, but startups traditionally have a greater than 95% failure rate. No amount of lawsuits will change the nature of that. Some folks just can’t stomach the losses
603
604Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 9:19:19 AM]:
605"That shit will blow over" not sure it will with the amount of people. And it harms any success of any future project I do that has my name on it even if bk were to close.
606
607Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 9:20:01 AM]:
608think of the licensing part now, cold emails didnt work so i thought going to events etc might, now it's quite easy to see my name and site name being accused as a scam so doubt even meeting in person would help
609
610Garnett, [24/05/2019 at 9:20:44 AM]:
611It’s certainly possible. BK just needs to be successful in the end and payout big to investors and bankrollers. People can’t say shit against success
612
613Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 9:21:34 AM]:
614that's true, and that's what I was hoping for when we started seeing this new profit coming in. But hard to imagine it continuing to right now. Maybe just worked up a bit tbh
615
616Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 9:22:07 AM]:
617Maybe the network of sites idea would be good to pursue and make them all anon/not linked to betking
618
619Garnett, [24/05/2019 at 9:22:37 AM]:
620From a business point of view, I don’t see exchanges jumping on board. Especially exchanges trying to be legit. But I suspect there are groups that would white label.
621
622Garnett, [24/05/2019 at 9:23:01 AM]:
623I think the micro-site type approach could be decent market research as well. You’ll see what sticks
624
625Nicola, [24/05/2019 at 9:23:27 AM]:
626Am I the only one seeing these scam allegations as an opportunity for some free advertising? I mean guys, come on, who sane of mind would think Dean's behaviour is a scam? Quite the opposite. A scam has a precise name in this space: 404 not found :)
627
628@DeanBK your behaviour reflects that of the responsible persons running a business, but crypto is 99% marketing, 1% business. If those groups talk about you, there *must* be a way to turn it to your advantage.
629
630Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 9:23:58 AM]:
631there were a couple that said about regulation actually. We had one about to setup but then backed out at last minute which was frustrating
632
633Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 9:25:24 AM]:
634i've said before. If I was a scammer I must be the absolute worse one. Sticking around this whole time and trying to make people money back doesn't sound like any scammer I've heard of
635
636CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 9:28:33 AM]:
637We can't do anything about those guys
638
639CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 9:28:41 AM]:
640Suggest we focus on moving forward
641
642Garnett, [24/05/2019 at 9:29:25 AM]:
643Success is the best revenge
644
645CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 9:29:29 AM]:
646I don't want to comment to much until I've properly read the pdf
647
648Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 9:31:33 AM]:
649agree, but I would like to wait until everyone has a chance to read the pdf and we get more investors in here before committing to anything. Once we all agree on some route to take we can better plan it and come up with a reasonable time to work on it etc
650
651CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 9:31:47 AM]:
652Agreed
653
654CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 9:32:00 AM]:
655More reasonable than some of my work colleagues right now
656
657Garnett, [24/05/2019 at 9:33:11 AM]:
658Yeah, I think it’s good to give it some time to simmer.
659
660Darren G, [24/05/2019 at 9:43:17 AM]:
661It's a positive move you've made Dean, who knows where it will go but I appreciate the honesty
662
663David, [24/05/2019 at 12:45:06 PM]:
664Ok, I've caught up on everything and read the PDF. Here's my thoughts.
665
666David, [24/05/2019 at 12:46:23 PM]:
6671. Please keep the site running at least until the May 2020 halving. The site does well during big crypto run-ups past 10K BTC, and we haven't had one of those in ages. When it happens, you might be surprised how people throw their money around.
668
669David, [24/05/2019 at 12:48:00 PM]:
6702. It is unfortunate that the UK and US must be blocked. When we made the 7400 BTC during the last boom, were the US and UK blocked then? Considering that we must block the US and a lot of the discussion on Bitcoin Talk would be US based, perhaps there is not a lot of point on continuing to focus on Bitcoin Talk. Maybe Chinese forums would be a better idea?
671
672David, [24/05/2019 at 12:49:16 PM]:
6733. Along those lines, some translations into Chinese (Mandarin) of the site would be definitely worth a try. I also like the idea of doing the translations and then getting a few SEO's going like "chinese litecoin gambling" or "chinese bitcoin gambling" etc. Hopefully one of them sticks.
674
675Patrick, [24/05/2019 at 12:49:38 PM]:
676I'll second that. Keeping it the site running for years for limited profit and high maintenance from Dean seems unsustainable, but I would like to see it given a bit more of a chance for players to be attracted organically.
677
678David, [24/05/2019 at 12:50:27 PM]:
6794. I love the idea of the 1000 bets a second. It means that the folks who gamble with 1 satoshi at a time to test out some theory end up going through their funds much faster, and are more likely to start chasing losses, which is what we want. Simplicity is good too. I don't like the idea of a sports book, sounds like a great way to get played. The mathematical games seem more successful.
680
681David, [24/05/2019 at 12:51:59 PM]:
6825. Finally, a left field idea that would need some work, but I don't think exists anywhere yet. Dean, you mentioned about video games where people can gamble against each other? If you could somehow get a popular video game or stripped down variant running on the site, and allow players to wager against each other (with a percentage cut going to BetKing from the winner), that could be very successful. People love to back themselves on video games and don't have anywhere to bet against another person online that I know of.
683
684David, [24/05/2019 at 12:58:48 PM]:
6856. The final thing I would say is that this needs to be a multi pronged approach. whatever you do, at least a few ideas must be attempted, because only one of them is going to work, and you don't know which one.
686
687Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 5:28:37 PM]:
688I maye be totally wrong but I feel that the price of btc increasing is bad for us. I mean when we were making $3.5-4 million before BTC price was between $400-600, people seemed to part with it easy. We relaunched when btc was ~$4400, it doesn't look to me like people want to spend it. Though maybe it's just many other factors on BK
689
690Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 5:31:37 PM]:
691UK has always been blocked, US since ICO. Agree, BTCTalk is also a dying forum. New people to crypto don't go there and many people left and use reddit/telegram/twitter and whatever else now. I should ignore it, but it can be hard (or was at first) since it is very personal and there's a lot of people on there who think it's fine to try and dox people so it was pretty easy to check it frequently.
692Now that it's went for so long and my rep is quite bad across the board it seems I don't really care much to check/argue now, there's not much more that can be said
693
694Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 5:33:26 PM]:
695fwiw, we had a chinese translated version before the new token launched, i didn't see any icrease in chinese players (doesn't mean there was not). Hard to try and focus on any meaningful stat when everything is basicaly 0.
696However we didn't do any specific chinese marketing or find chinese forums etc so we could do that
697
698Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 5:35:08 PM]:
699It's very unsustainable. The amount you have lost, the amount I have lost, my rep, my health tbh etc it's not going to work me scraping by paying token holders back $20k a year. There's too much to recover, too much oportunity cost and much more healthier environments to work in
700
701Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 5:36:24 PM]:
702yes ideas like this are good. something we are not doing or have not tried. I think things like this may be better on fresh domain/brand though. Doesn't mean we can't share the profit
703
704Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 5:40:41 PM]:
705with currently only my time as a resource and no funds then they also need to be chosen in some order. Like try x, that could take 2 months to do, test it for 2 months, move to next thing etc (times just made up there).
706If we did think of something that was a big effort then we need to seriously consider that we need new investment. If we need extra devs, if we need design work, marketing etc. Not saying all you guys have to put anything in but we'd have to find it somewhere.
707It can be done in other ways too. We could have a fund that is m/n multisig wallet with a few investors having keys and we all make agreements on where/when to spend etc. I don't want any new investment coming in and me just left to use it without advice or direction, seen what happens if that's the case.
708
709Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 5:51:25 PM]:
710The kind of money that slither.io and surviv.io or zombsroyale.io make is very appealing though.
711If you look at any of these games they are very simple, no fancy graphics (no expensive designers needed).
712They make up to $100,000 a day with free to play and ads.
713
714I've been thinking maybe you could add BTC to a game i could make like that to help gain audience.
715Say you had the battleroyale style game. You could get BTC every time you kill another player. It would have to be faucet style amounts we are talking here but it would attract an initial audience from say indonesia looking to faucet farm.
716
717You could then have pay to enter tournaments, like poker, for btc.
718So in game there's a tournament you enter fo x btc, we keep some rake, then winner takes all rest. 
719So many in game purchase options too.
720
721I guess btc could be like a way of limiting the audience though, not sure. I mean some may be put off because they don't know what it is or think they need btc to play and in app purchase/pay to play stuff obviously has far more volume with just regular credit cards.
722But giving away $ in game seems more hassle than giving away btc
723
724Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 7:56:19 PM]:
725there's also maybe an option of removing that new token if no one thinks it has any potential. We can't go back to the old token and obviously not that buyback model they had. But I don't think some new token would be any good if we got rid of bkt. We could change the rules/economics of it, it's not like many people bought it, it was free in airdrop.
726or maybe just bkb holders get a "debt token" only on site and we do 50/40/10 of profit to bankrollers, tokens, site.
727i think token holders making money back on investment should see that as making money back and remove some debt tokens if that's the case.
728we could have the 40% be in a queue to pay back this group first.
729problem is that it only recovers initial investment, it gets no actual return after that and maybe the bkt token is good to have with bet mining etc
730
731just thinking of ideas :)
732
733Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 7:57:28 PM]:
734and open to any
735
736Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 7:59:22 PM]:
737not sure what that would mean for the people who have bkt on site though, bkb holders could just have it confiscated? players have it as some on site only reward?
738
739Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 8:01:44 PM]:
740right now there is 650mm bkt on site (bankroll, balances, in orders)
741bkb holders swapped 455mm, so there's 195mm tokens either earned in bet mining or promos or deposited from airdrop
742
743Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 8:03:21 PM]:
744the debt could be locked in $ and the 40% share distributed direct to accounts. no need for exchange. Or maybe best to keep exchange if people want to still trade? not sure. Feel i'm just babbling now :)
745
746CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 8:27:02 PM]:
747I hear what you are saying.   To me if we can get profit flowing back we can fix all ills and if we can't the rest is a bit mixed
748
749Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 8:45:42 PM]:
750if we could get all investors on same page and agree there's no scamming then work on how to publically clear up that image (statement plus investor feedbakc/posts etc) then maybe it would mean profit starts flowing. But not sure that willl happen
751
752CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 8:46:29 PM]:
753Yes it's not a bad way to look at it
754
755CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 8:46:46 PM]:
756It would help us take back thr bitcointalk  and twitter etc
757
758Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 8:50:24 PM]:
759yeah, but we'd probably need the other investors lie mike etc to agree to it to for it to have full effect?
760
761CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 9:01:57 PM]:
762A reasonable person would be interested in a way to get their money back.  Especially if all it required was them to be quiet for 9 months
763
764CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 9:02:05 PM]:
765To see if it worked
766
767CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 9:03:12 PM]:
768Albeit you obviously can't garuntee anything because they are lawyered up but an invitation to see the benefit for them if they don't sabotage seems like an attractive proposition
769
770Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 9:06:30 PM]:
771we'd have to have a solid plan voted on first as to what we should do though i think before anyone changed their stance
772
773Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 9:09:36 PM]:
774In summary the main things we haven't tried are 
775- on chain dapps (like eosbet has)
776- betting exchange
777- licence/white label software services
778
779any of the above could be under a different brand
780
781- network of sites with different domains/seo/marketing strategy in different languages and currencies
782
783or something totally different to betking e.g. games (not gambling), the bitsafe app i've been working on, any other ideas put forward.
784
785and/or changing the token, how it works, or removing it and having accounts have a debt balance
786
787Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 9:10:04 PM]:
788i don't know how to bring players to the current produtc at all as proven
789
790Nicola, [24/05/2019 at 9:19:09 PM]:
791I'd definitely need the ideas to be divided into two: the almost immediately doable by-tomorrow-evening, and those that compete for being what you believe could work. But the latter can be no more than... one, do you agree?
792
793Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 9:21:00 PM]:
794still the biggest problem is no matter what we build, we need people to know about it. Just adding things isn't helping (look at roulette/crash traffic).
795
796Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 9:21:33 PM]:
797and so far it seems we don't have anyone in the group with marketing expertise so not sure we're going to be able to come up with a solid plan there yet
798
799Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 9:22:21 PM]:
800i thought the airdrop would have worked for example, maybe a professional doing research, even on a basic level, would know that wouldn't work or that it was poorly executed
801
802Nicola, [24/05/2019 at 9:29:43 PM]:
803Agree, that's the biggest problem. Advertising is not my expertise, so I cannot help much, but Twitter looks like the platform of choice for crypto-people. Also, as @GarnettG was saying, maybe someone identifying the kind of public. I'm not sure how much you feel these people (like Mike) barking "scam" are annoying or dangerous. From my perspective they aren't, as they represent whining people looking for attention, but depending on how much serious you are (and you look like) you may suffer this kind of dissing.
804
805CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 9:42:15 PM]:
806My friend in marketing has been too busy to offer any service but I'll see if she can recommend someone to come up with a competent plan
807
808Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 9:50:38 PM]:
809should any of those other guys be added here if they swap bkb to bkt? or too much liability?
810I mean there's some people in here that haven't spoke yet, who knows if they are relaying info back to them anyway
811
812Thomas Pagano, [25/05/2019 at 1:10:11 AM]:
813As one of those people who haven't spoke yet... I don't know enough about the product/marketing side of things to suggest something you haven't already tried. But I am appreciative of all the transparency and brainstorming.
814
815David, [25/05/2019 at 1:20:37 AM]:
816One more idea
817
818David, [25/05/2019 at 1:21:06 AM]:
819How about a survey, with a bounty for filling it out, that goes to all existing betking members
820
821David, [25/05/2019 at 1:21:34 AM]:
822Something decent line 0.001 BTC or 0.0001 BTC or whatever as the bounty for filling it out
823
824David, [25/05/2019 at 1:21:55 AM]:
825And simply ask where they originally found out about betking, where they first heard about betking
826
827David, [25/05/2019 at 1:22:14 AM]:
828Get your trends from that, perhaps something stands out and you can work on that
829
830David, [25/05/2019 at 1:23:26 AM]:
831I don’t mind the % make whole plan you suggested, but it would need to be denoted in BTC, not in fiat, as far as I’m concerned. I want to be made whole in BTC
832
833Dean (BetKing Admin), [25/05/2019 at 1:24:25 AM]:
834the original ico was a $ investment
835
836Dean (BetKing Admin), [25/05/2019 at 2:11:51 AM]:
837What if btx reached 1mm each. You cant expect to recover the btc then
838
839Dean (BetKing Admin), [25/05/2019 at 2:12:40 AM]:
840Maybe if things move fast we can recover almost thr same before the price shoots up too much but have to be realistic at this stage. Easier to recover the $ value
841
842Patrick, [25/05/2019 at 5:38:25 AM]:
843I'm not understanding the fixation on recovering initial investment here. This is basically changing strategy at the table so that you don't have a losing session, right? This seems like not the right mindset. Maybe it's not that important, but I think we should be focusing on ideas that give a high probability of a reasonable return based on the current bkt value rather than getting stuck on what we started with. That gives us a shot at sustainable profit. I don't see how the initial investment amount matters aside from reputation concerns.
844
845Dean (BetKing Admin), [25/05/2019 at 7:33:46 PM]:
846wagered/profit stats per week for each currency, notice that the past two weeks has seen quite a decline in volume
847
848Dean (BetKing Admin), [25/05/2019 at 7:36:20 PM]:
849in total about $6000 profit in past 2 weeks all combined (at current prices) which splits 50/50 with bankroll investors and token buy back pools
850
851Dean (BetKing Admin), [25/05/2019 at 7:39:06 PM (25/05/19, 7:40:25 PM)]:
852to me that shows a pretty dire state to be in. weeks 11 and 12 were basically 1 player making most of the volume and profit in btc/eth. Though the past 2 weeks and weeks 8-9 do seem similar (before and after highroller) but still looks like a downward trend
853
854Dean (BetKing Admin), [25/05/2019 at 7:41:58 PM]:
855The price of BKT is dropping a lot, it was being sold for 5 or 6 sats on bk exchange, now it's been 2 to 3 sats. On newdex.io it has dropped from about 0.00006 eos to 0.0000126 eos
856
857Dean (BetKing Admin), [25/05/2019 at 7:55:46 PM]:
858The highroller still logs in. He is a chancer. He emailed on first loss claiming it wasn't his money and that his boss would kill him for loss. He's banned from chat because he starts arguments with everyone and claims it's all rigged. His connection cut out once when the auto bet mode was on so the bets stopped. He claims that made him lose 1 btc and keeps emailing demanding a refund :) obviosuly we don't do refunds and that didn't make him lose at all, different if it actually bet for him when he didn't want to but it actually stopped the betting
859
860Dean (BetKing Admin), [25/05/2019 at 7:57:53 PM]:
861actually he just deposited 0.4 btc and is playing noow
862
863Dean (BetKing Admin), [25/05/2019 at 7:59:23 PM]:
864with bkt, he invested the btc
865
866Nicola, [25/05/2019 at 8:12:15 PM]:
867I agree on this.
868
869Nicola, [25/05/2019 at 8:12:49 PM]:
870Whining highrollers ?
871
872David, [25/05/2019 at 9:15:28 PM]:
873I want to be made whole for financial reasons, not reputation reasons. That said, I don’t want to get in the way and I understand that we can be profitable from the point we are at now. I can be patient too.
874
875Dean (BetKing Admin), [25/05/2019 at 9:27:10 PM]:
876$3k a week, and declining, isn't going to make anyone whole again. (13 years)
877We've burned through all funds and I've tried everything I can think of to bring players and it doesn't seem to be working.
878Hence why this group was created. We need as much help as possible from investors or others.
879I don't have the motivation now to work on BetKing when everything I try every day fails.
880I'm currently not working on BetKing until investors put forward a solid plan because I'm not picking something that's bound to fail again and make no one any money.
881It will probably take a few weeks or a month for everyone who got the emails to join here and everyone to settle on the next path. I'll be doing non BK things in the mean time and maybe it trickles in $3k a week still or we get lucky and some highroller returns.
882
883Patrick, [26/05/2019 at 6:13:00 AM]:
884My question is why does anything we try need to make everyone whole again? Imo we should be doing anything that has a good chance of making a return worth the risk and the work that's put in (just by Dean at this point). I think Dean taking a break isn't a bad idea, as that limits the effective burn rate or maintenance cost of the site in terms of human capital, which it seems is the major cost at this point. If you can keep it on autopilot as much as possible, and it starts to bring in a bit more, that seems more sustainable. A new project seems like a good idea, but I don't understand why we're focusing on that project or idea making a specific amount rather than just being profitable. Our invested funds are either gone or represented in the development of betking so far, so trying to make back the original investment seems very arbitrary and counterproductive.
885
886KingGD, [26/05/2019 at 11:22:28 AM]:
887I peronally think
8881. BKT price -- When we have exchange BKT/BTC , price cannot go up because BKT was airdropped(*Free). Lots of holders who get BKT from Airdrop, they have willing to sell sell BKT whenever price goes up. : They use BKT for only sell instead of using game.
889So I dont know why exchange is needed at this time. Lomg term Holder has patient..can wait little more. 
890 
891I think making structure of 'price still goes up system' is better. This way is like that Betking did. I think BKB token strcutrue itsef was good. (Price was guaranted and goes up only , Holder can get 10% buyback for what they opt-in)
892Though this way, BKT holder can get profit, not making price go down. - Even though it also painful for original BKB holder, its right way.
893
894KingGD, [26/05/2019 at 11:46:15 AM]:
8952. Marketing - How we can invite a new user without  not enogh marketing cost. What is costless way? I think to make a new airdrop token to play a game is most effective. It should erc20 to spread most lots of users easily. But one important thing is new token price should be very low compare to BKT token. Through this way we can get a new user , not nagative affecting BKB. (ex. new 'BKT play' token price is 0.1% of BKT price). New token is only used for a game and exchange with BKT proportionally. 1000BKT Play token = 1 BKT )
896And in a mean time, additonally make a bounty program and give rewarded new token to whom post about Betking site or follow twitter, telegram. Inviting friends what else..)
897
898KingGD, [26/05/2019 at 12:00:26 PM]:
8993. (Future) Exchange - How we can use this? I think making Betking site as a platform is good way like current IEO trend, listing a new token from projects and developers. To help listing their token, they need to buy some BKT token, and it should be burned. And also listed a new token can be played for a game. That means naturally Betking can get a lots of new userefrom the token user's community. 
900
901I think one strong point of Betking is alreay it alreay has  structured system for exchange and deposit/withdraw system.
902
903Michael m, [26/05/2019 at 4:08:16 PM]:
9043) is a interesting idea, lots of communities want some utility from their tokens, they find out they can gamble it or invest it might catch on
905
906Michael m, [26/05/2019 at 4:35:41 PM]:
907also agree with auto pilot mode with minimal effort, the trolls and negativety will subside
908
909Dean (BetKing Admin), [26/05/2019 at 6:40:35 PM]:
910thanks @King_GD for the ideas. Will think about those while deciding next steps
911
912Dean (BetKing Admin), [26/05/2019 at 6:50:46 PM]:
913should the investor from the group that were seeking legal action be sent the doc and group link?
914
915Dean (BetKing Admin), [26/05/2019 at 6:59:05 PM]:
916on one hand  it feels like they should since they still hold tokens. But I feel it's too big a risk. Not too bothered that they use anything against me legally as they don't have a case anyway. But if they post on twitet things like that about me/bbk and we discuss/announce new sites/projects, what's to stop them posting about the new thing too, damaging that's chance of success
917
918Dean (BetKing Admin), [26/05/2019 at 7:07:28 PM]:
919could maybe send doc but not link?
920
921Dean (BetKing Admin), [26/05/2019 at 8:09:37 PM]:
922regarding 3. above about exchange, would making exchange on a new brand/domain not be better for that? Fresh start but also doens't have bet in the name which might be bad for exchanges
923
924Dean (BetKing Admin), [26/05/2019 at 8:20:56 PM]:
925we would also need thousads of traders already before people would choose to launch an ieo with us instead of binance
926
927Dean (BetKing Admin), [27/05/2019 at 12:48:18 AM]:
928in case you missed from the public group chat
929all investments that had 25x leverage have been auto divested, you can reinvest at up to 10x now
930
931Dean (BetKing Admin), [27/05/2019 at 8:14:50 PM]:
932Some new volume this weekend with EOS and some BTC. In total site made about $4.5k
933
934Dean (BetKing Admin), [27/05/2019 at 8:15:20 PM]:
935Would be interested to hear peoples opinion on what we should do with buy back strategy now and what to do about token(s)
936
937CCN CCN, [27/05/2019 at 11:04:25 PM]:
938i'd convert it all to btc (the buyback currency) then keep it in the secure, savings account earning 6% interest
939
940CCN CCN, [27/05/2019 at 11:04:31 PM]:
941until we have a clear way forward
942
943CCN CCN, [27/05/2019 at 11:04:55 PM]:
944Blockfi account
945
946Dean (BetKing Admin), [27/05/2019 at 11:17:09 PM]:
947maximum return would be $14k in a year (25 btc max for 6.2% apy) if I'm calculating right and if we used the curent buy back pool we are talking 6.2% apy on like $2000 or something. Not sure that is worth it is it?
948
949Dean (BetKing Admin), [27/05/2019 at 11:17:55 PM]:
950plus 3rd party risk and i think they convert the btc to $
951
952CCN CCN, [27/05/2019 at 11:52:02 PM]:
953$ funding is cheaper than 6.2%.  Would be surprised if they were doing that.  Counterparty risk exists and it's a risk appetite question, I think it is limited in this instance, personally.   It's also a good way to test the offering with limited $$$ before doing anything else.  Optimising treasury is a good way to turn a business profitable.
954
955Peter, [28/05/2019 at 7:21:12 AM (28/05/19, 7:22:58 AM)]:
956Hi - I just joined at Dean's invite. I have read the pdf. I have 30+ years experience in tech marketing and sales. I haven't read all the discussion above but will try skim through it. My main comment is that this business needs to be run as a business and not via a set of chat forums (with no disrespect to anyone here). I think Dean should 1) invest a little (can be just $1-2K) on some business consulting and as input all the above can be included + his report/pdf. 2) keep this group as idea generator and sounding board but stick to the plan the consultant recommends 3) hire 2 or 3 people for sales/marketing/biz dev/finance with some bkt vesting program so they don't just dump but rather have incentive to get the value up to the point that most investors *don't* just want all their money back but instead stick around for bigger payoff. 4) then Dean is CEO of "startup" with small team, instead of him trying to do it all himself. Main goal is to grow the revenue and value of the business, which would be reflected in the price of bkt.
957
958Peter, [28/05/2019 at 7:22:22 AM]:
959PS - I'm an investor too, from BK ICO days.
960
961Dean (BetKing Admin), [28/05/2019 at 7:42:29 AM]:
9621) where would I find anyone to do that?
9633) same, this site wasn't run on own since ico, it was marketing staff and marketing agencies that cause the most damage as noted in the pdf. 
964also, very unlikely to get someone to work for some token that they would be hoping to raise in price.
965the difference here is everyone in this group already has money invested and has an interest in the price going up so they don't lose money
966I know some people have a lot of money and took a risk and have written it off already so won't be willing to put any time or anything in but some still could
967
968Peter, [28/05/2019 at 7:51:11 AM]:
9691 - there's management consultants all over. Maybe there's some that know blockchain. I just hired a consultant for an ecommerce business I own and will know if I can recommend they guy to you in a few weeks.
970
971Peter, [28/05/2019 at 7:54:20 AM]:
9723 - you need a team with shared beliefs and incentives. I don't think you need a lot of people. Treat it like a startup. Maybe just find 1 person to help you share the load and free up some of your time to work *on* the business instead of *in* the business. Until you have a plan just use this group in the meantime. I think having a clear plan is the first step.
973
974Dean (BetKing Admin), [28/05/2019 at 10:22:06 PM]:
975I'm still wondering what people thought of this idea, as far as I can see there was one for and one against.
976
977Removing BKT and BKB altogether. There is no tokens at all. No exchange, no bet mining, no rewards in tokens.
978We burn all them (that are in BK possession).
979
980We then have original ICO investors have a "debt" balance in account which is set to the amount of $ invested in the ICO.
981
982Then when we take profit from bankroll investor commission we distribute it to players debt balances instead of to buy back pools. 
983So you might have a balance that says "debt: $10,000, BTC: 0.5"
984Where BTC is the amount of btc been shared from commission to you.
985
986Then when you withdraw the BTC from BK we take current conversion rate and decrease the debt figure. So in the example above if you withdraw when BTC is $8000 the debt would go to $6000. If BTC was $12000 the debt would go to $4000 etc.
987
988On top of that we could add the following:
9891) Profit made back from bankroll investing would also reduce the debt (at time of withdraw as in above example).
9902) Profit made from selling tokens that were mined (before we make this change) would also reduce the debt balance. This would take into consideration losses while playing though too.
991
992Overall I think that this would see initial investors get a return faster as we wouldn't be buying up tokens from people who can bet with +EV (lose $100 and sell tokens for $110 etc).
993We wouldn't be buying tokens that were sent in airdrops or any extra in promotions.
994The site can become profitable faster too.
995
996Bet mining has saw people play to mine tokens but I'm not sure if it's an overall positive thing with the current price of the tokens. People are playing almost +ev or even +ev at times. That might be a net negative for the site overall. Or maybe removing token does actually cause a huge drop in players.
997Making the changes might even be good PR as people could say they feel the situation was resolved, or being resolved
998Thoughts?
999
1000Graham, [28/05/2019 at 10:27:55 PM]:
1001Dean can you elaborate: in this case is it possible for an investor's btc balance to become larger in $ terms than the initial debt balance?
1002Dean (BetKing Admin), [28/05/2019 at 10:29:54 PM]:
1003so if you were getting a share of profit and left it for a year and you had debt of $10k but btc worth say $20k? Then I guess that is an actual return on investment. I'm not sure how likely this scenario would be to occur in the short term though
1004
1005Graham, [28/05/2019 at 10:33:46 PM]:
1006The main issue is making the site more attractive for bankroll investors and punters, that's the core of all of this, rearranging the deck chairs isn't going to bring more punters. The exchange is a great feature and dice sites have one, they also have bet mining etc. How about a dark and light theme, light themes keep people more alert
1007
1008Graham, [28/05/2019 at 10:35:37 PM]:
1009I could see there was value for bankrolling at 25x leverage with 50% commission, but now with 10x it is no value compared to yolo dice with 10x leverage and 35% commission, bk should be on par value
1010
1011Dean (BetKing Admin), [28/05/2019 at 10:36:18 PM]:
1012well....
1013
1014Dean (BetKing Admin), [28/05/2019 at 10:36:52 PM]:
1015"The main issue is making the site more attractive for bankroll investors "
1016we are not attracting any because commission is too high and they need to buy BKT to get lower commission. No one likes to part with money before investing....
1017
1018Dean (BetKing Admin), [28/05/2019 at 10:37:49 PM]:
1019"The exchange is a great feature and dice sites have one,"
1020very few dice sites have one and ours has no function other than for the site to buy tokens on, no one else is really buying, there's no real volume meaning we should keep exchange
1021
1022Dean (BetKing Admin), [28/05/2019 at 10:38:21 PM]:
1023"How about a dark and light theme, light themes keep people more alert"
1024those are small things that are not related to what is being discussed. Having dark theme isn't going to make us $2mm, the site is already dark too
1025
1026Dean (BetKing Admin), [28/05/2019 at 10:39:24 PM]:
1027"I could see there was value for bankrolling at 25x leverage with 50% commission, but now with 10x it is no value compared to yolo dice with 10x leverage and 35% commission, bk should be on par value"
1028most investors said they didn't like 25x, it's too risky since everyone is doing it. All current investors don't pay 50% commission because 99% of them have bkt and pay 25% of the commission with that, so the get it lower than yolo
1029
1030Graham, [28/05/2019 at 10:44:28 PM]:
1031Unless like myself want to hold bkt, paying with bkt is essentially dumping them for nothing.  Also maybe a tiered buyback/commission, so you can earn something at least, on days below a threshold, you keep, on other days with more profit.
1032
1033Dean (BetKing Admin), [28/05/2019 at 10:44:55 PM]:
1034and this is just for token changes, we can still do all the other feature ideas mention on top of that be it network of sites, new games etc. But I'm just wondering if the token stuff is harming us or making it more difficult for people to get money back
1035
1036Dean (BetKing Admin), [28/05/2019 at 10:45:21 PM]:
1037yes but people are doing it because they feel they have already lost everything
1038
1039Graham, [28/05/2019 at 10:50:13 PM]:
1040How about instead of a full exchange you have a token swap between the main tokens price pegged to binance (or another) with a exchange commission for bk, so a punter can remain on the site if they want to punt with another token.
1041
1042Graham, [28/05/2019 at 10:52:00 PM]:
1043I don't think it is a dead loss, it only is if you shit it down, there have been a couple of large punters in the last month, that's far better than its previous recent history, it's still growing, just slowly
1044
1045Graham, [28/05/2019 at 10:52:14 PM]:
1046Shut*
1047
1048Dean (BetKing Admin), [28/05/2019 at 10:53:10 PM]:
1049yeah true
1050
1051Dean (BetKing Admin), [28/05/2019 at 10:55:08 PM]:
1052I still think that the idea of a debt balance might be better than the current token model though. I would like to hear more people's feedback. I made the changed to launch bkt almost on own as only 1 or 2 people gave feedback on the idea (positive feedback) and then I have people unhappy when they didn't bother to give input.
1053This change to me feels like it could be best for everyone and "resolve" the situation
1054
1055Darren G, [28/05/2019 at 11:01:49 PM]:
1056If you remove the token, what will happen to the commission rate? Will it stay at 50%
1057
1058Dean (BetKing Admin), [28/05/2019 at 11:02:07 PM]:
1059I think we would need to lower it to remain competitive
1060
1061Dean (BetKing Admin), [28/05/2019 at 11:02:28 PM]:
1062maybe down to 35% like yolodice. I'm not sure what rates are like on other sites at the moment
1063
1064Darren G, [28/05/2019 at 11:02:45 PM]:
1065does 35% actually mean you will make more money?
1066
1067Dean (BetKing Admin), [28/05/2019 at 11:02:56 PM]:
1068yeah....
1069
1070Darren G, [28/05/2019 at 11:02:57 PM]:
1071or BK rather
1072
1073Dean (BetKing Admin), [28/05/2019 at 11:03:22 PM]:
1074i was going to say how it makes you get a return faster.
1075
1076Dean (BetKing Admin), [28/05/2019 at 11:03:41 PM]:
1077BK doesn;t make any money at the moment, we've made 0 since launching the new token in feb
1078
1079Dean (BetKing Admin), [28/05/2019 at 11:04:46 PM]:
1080but even with lower commission you would see a return faster as there would be funds going directly to your debt balance each day/week or whatever. Instead of us having to keep buying new mined tokens and getting through airdrop dumps etc
1081
1082Dean (BetKing Admin), [28/05/2019 at 11:05:30 PM]:
1083even if it was something like 65% bankroll, 25% to debt balance, 10% to site everyone would still see a return faster i think
1084
1085Graham, [28/05/2019 at 11:19:04 PM]:
1086You've already burned 1/5 of all bkt in circulation, if issuance of new tokens was ceased, it wouldn't be long before the price would be pushed up through buybacks to make it worth selling some of yours. The site only needs to grow about 4-5 x more profitable to start giving you a reasonable return, it is happening slowly and it won't take 13 years.
1087
1088Nicola, [28/05/2019 at 11:22:54 PM]:
1089If the need of investors is real (and I think it is), it should be lowered to 10%
1090
1091Dean (BetKing Admin), [28/05/2019 at 11:37:47 PM]:
1092remember the whole point of the new token was to try and bring thousands of new players from the EOS community, like EOSBet and sites like that claim to have. That didn't happen.
1093
1094John Deer, [29/05/2019 at 1:23:56 AM]:
1095this would have been my only concern in changing the model but if they were already investors then it seems alright
1096
1097Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 5:27:48 AM]:
1098i think u will make people unhappy and fuel more fire for the trolls if u get rid of bkt
1099
1100Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 9:02:32 AM]:
1101The idea of a debt balance seems very bad for investors. What you're proposing if I understand correctly (I probably don't) is capping the return that an investor could make if the site is eventually more successful at the amount that they invested initially. That wouldn't change the probability of success. It would only take away from returns for investors if the site did succeed.
1102
1103Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 9:05:26 AM]:
1104This makes me think you wouldn't be capping returns at initial investment, but that makes me wonder what would really be different about this model besides airdropped people being cut out and betmining being removed.
1105
1106Darren G, [29/05/2019 at 9:06:00 AM]:
1107What returns do you think we’re likely to make at the moment?
1108
1109Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 9:06:04 AM]:
1110I think simpler is better, and this seems like it would be a simpler model, but it's also a major change to the platform, which introduces a different kind of complexity.
1111
1112Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 9:06:30 AM]:
1113Are you asking me?
1114
1115Darren G, [29/05/2019 at 9:06:59 AM]:
1116Yeah, at the moment the returns are likely to be 0
1117
1118Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 9:07:02 AM]:
1119I think the odds of investors making more than original investment anytime soon are very low
1120
1121Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 9:07:21 AM]:
1122but I also don't see how capping returns would make success more likely
1123
1124Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 9:07:48 AM]:
1125Hopefully that's not part of the plan. I don't think it really makes sense and doesn't seem like something Dean would do.
1126
1127Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 9:07:54 AM]:
1128I think I misunderstood
1129
1130Darren G, [29/05/2019 at 9:08:20 AM]:
1131I might have also, it’s a valid question
1132
1133Peter, [29/05/2019 at 9:29:29 AM]:
1134I have an issue with airdrops, bounties, and mining  - seems to make things more complicated and bring people that don't really contribute to the value of the site or token. Airdrops and bounties particularly are criteria for me to not invest in a project. I think moving to a simpler model where there's value-added gaming, and promotion of the winners (like casinos do), would make it simpler and easer to focus. With more focus there would be more growth and more returns for investors. Not sure about the debt idea as I don't see it attracting more gamblers = more income.
1135
1136Thomas, [29/05/2019 at 9:35:41 AM]:
1137Im mostly just reading to learn something but I agree with last few points. Seems to make most sense to me also.
1138
1139Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 9:39:22 AM]:
1140The idea might need tweaked, or even scrapped. But the point is that I think it makes initial BKB ICO investors their investment back sooner. It's not really anything for players to be concerned with. Though I do think removing tokens and exchange and getting the site to be the same as pre ico probably makes it simpler for gamblers and bankroll investors even if behind the scenes some accounts have an extra "debt" balance
1141
1142Peter, [29/05/2019 at 9:44:26 AM]:
1143How would we handle the original investors that have since sold their bkt (was converted from bkb investment) and now have less (sold some) or more (bought more)? I guess it would have to be converted back somehow and then the question is what pair and price to use?
1144
1145Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 9:45:44 AM]:
1146there would be very few people i imagine. If they sold then that's their choice to do so imo.
1147
1148Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 9:47:35 AM]:
1149so this would be based on current bkt balances * buyback price when bkt was created?
1150
1151Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 9:47:42 AM]:
1152would also be easy to know how much they made from selling bkt and then reduce debt amount by that amount
1153
1154Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 9:48:36 AM]:
1155I don't think that idea makes sense
1156
1157Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 9:48:42 AM]:
1158no, it would be based on original ICO $ invested, plus any extra BKB that you might have bought on hitbtc etc
1159
1160Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 9:48:57 AM]:
1161investors that didn't sell took much more risk of failure
1162
1163Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 9:49:13 AM]:
1164I'm not sure where the confusion is....
1165
1166Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 9:49:33 AM]:
1167so bkb balance at time of airdrop?
1168
1169Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 9:49:56 AM]:
1170how do you know how much bkb people bought?
1171
1172Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 9:51:08 AM]:
1173If you used this model, you would basically be taking away all profits made from those of us that took a large risk by investing in bkt in bankroll as well
1174
1175Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 9:51:50 AM]:
1176If someone invested $10,000 in the ICO then they would have $10,000 in their debt balance. Only people who still had BKB (didn't sell in Buy backs on old site)
1177That figure gets reduced if
11781) you converted bkb to bkt and sold bkt
11792) you have invested in the bankroll and made a profit that way
11803) you have bought/mined bkt and sold at profit
1181
1182All the info is info we have so it's not hard to work out exactly how much $ someone is still down from original investment to now
1183
1184Darren G, [29/05/2019 at 9:54:52 AM]:
1185Is 2 related to investing in the BKT bankroll?
1186
1187Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 9:55:04 AM]:
1188yes
1189
1190Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 9:55:06 AM]:
1191no
1192
1193Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 9:55:08 AM]:
1194sorry
1195
1196Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 9:55:22 AM]:
1197I still don't understand what happens when someone's profit exceeds their initial investment. I think that's the most important thing here.
1198
1199Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 9:55:23 AM]:
1200like if you invested btc in the btc bankroll
1201
1202Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 9:55:44 AM]:
1203What does investing in the btc bankroll have to do with investment in the token?
1204
1205Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 9:56:29 AM]:
1206But it would be a very unlikley scenario. That could only happen if someone doesn't withdrew the funds from their debt balance for a long time and btc goes up a lot
1207
1208Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 9:56:41 AM]:
1209because you still made money back from the site
1210
1211Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 9:57:37 AM]:
1212the profit from investing in the btc bankroll is compensation for taking on risk to enable higher max bets
1213
1214Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 9:57:49 AM]:
1215that is a completely separate investment
1216
1217Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 9:58:15 AM]:
1218doesn't matter. You still made profit on the site and so it's not like you are down overall of the whole $ invested
1219
1220Darren G, [29/05/2019 at 9:58:49 AM]:
1221Let’s say you don’t have anything in the bankroll. How does the debt balance get paid down?
1222
1223Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 9:59:16 AM]:
1224a % of bankroll commission gets distibuted to debt balances
1225
1226Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 9:59:40 AM]:
1227but if people have lost anything investing in btc bankroll are you going to add to their debt?
1228
1229Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 9:59:48 AM]:
1230no
1231
1232Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:00:08 AM]:
1233So you're penalizing one side of the EV equation
1234
1235Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:00:16 AM]:
1236nope
1237
1238Darren G, [29/05/2019 at 10:00:42 AM]:
1239And I think there’s a hole there. It then becomes more worthwhile to have my balances invested elsewhere and let the commission slot pay down the debt balance
1240
1241Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:00:52 AM]:
1242also who's lost in bankroll investing? the sites had no volume for a year and half so no winners and the bankroll has more profit than ev right now so i'm sure anyone invested must be in profit
1243
1244Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:01:22 AM]:
1245What is the purpose of the debt balance?
1246
1247Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:01:38 AM]:
1248yeah. You can do that. But then you might not see return of initial investment as fast and I'm sure that's the goal here
1249
1250
1251Darren G, [29/05/2019 at 10:02:09 AM]:
1252True. My balance is invested here rather than at Yolo for a reason
1253
1254Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:02:33 AM]:
1255you said yourself you were trying to make the initial investment back by investing in the bankroll
1256
1257Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:02:50 AM]:
1258And I think it's also a bit more fair to me too
1259
1260Darren G, [29/05/2019 at 10:02:58 AM]:
1261Yes, and to help. But that is a hole in the plan
1262
1263Darren G, [29/05/2019 at 10:03:17 AM]:
1264I’m not saying I’m going to do it, but others will
1265
1266Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:03:43 AM]:
1267If we are not going to close and just eat the loss then I would rather that I wasn't working for 100 years to make everyone whole again :)
1268
1269Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:04:20 AM]:
1270so i think it's fair that if you invested 10k but have made 3k since that its alright to have 7k to try and make back now
1271
1272Darren G, [29/05/2019 at 10:04:21 AM]:
1273I do appreciate the efforts
1274
1275Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:04:35 AM]:
1276no matter who it all happened
1277
1278Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:04:37 AM]:
1279what happens when you make back the 7k?
1280
1281Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:05:01 AM]:
1282Is that the end of your share of profit from betking commissions?
1283
1284Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:05:01 AM]:
1285then you don't receieve any funds from the commission, but you can still invest in bankroll
1286
1287Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:05:17 AM]:
1288How can you think that's fair?
1289
1290Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:05:25 AM]:
1291how is it not?
1292
1293Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:05:44 AM]:
1294All this does is cap the returns possible for investors
1295
1296Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:05:54 AM]:
1297Everyone would be paid off in whole at the same time most likely, because it would be distrbuted by how much you have in balance
1298
1299Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:06:07 AM]:
1300we are not looking for returns. We are looking to recover loss
1301
1302Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 10:06:32 AM]:
1303whats happening with the Bkt I bought and bet mined for?
1304
1305Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:06:33 AM]:
1306We're looking to make returns
1307
1308Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:06:57 AM]:
1309How does this do anything except take away from the amount investors can make in the case of success?
1310
1311Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:07:30 AM]:
1312what success? if it's successful then we get the original funds back. I don't seeing it being a success where we can get 2x initial funds
1313
1314Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:07:40 AM]:
1315and the moment everyone is made whole again I would close the site
1316
1317Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:07:50 AM]:
1318so i wouldn't benefit from it
1319
1320Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:07:56 AM]:
1321It's improbable, but that is where investors make all profit
1322
1323Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:08:15 AM]:
1324it's not like i'm trying to remove investors so i profit. I'm looking to make it so everyone gets made whole asap and then we can move on
1325
1326Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:09:02 AM]:
1327well none of this is decided on yet. This is me putting out an idea
1328
1329Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:09:13 AM]:
1330That doesn't change the math
1331
1332Darren G, [29/05/2019 at 10:12:47 AM]:
1333I’m not sure how that would work. no one would sell as it’s not the price they want
1334
1335Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 10:13:17 AM]:
1336they currently buying and selling now
1337
1338Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:13:20 AM]:
1339preserve everyone's stake in profits without capping them arbitrarily and remove token price issues
1340
1341Darren G, [29/05/2019 at 10:13:48 AM]:
1342Only Dean is buying, bettors are selling, not investors
1343
1344Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:13:54 AM]:
1345there's also still the fact that there is bet mining and promos, and bkt on external exchanges etc. It's easy to block the airdrop tokens but we'd need to sort something out with exchanges
1346
1347Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 10:13:58 AM]:
1348I bought some
1349
1350Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:14:01 AM]:
1351just lock in everyone's share of commission based on tokens held and distribute commission directly
1352
1353Darren G, [29/05/2019 at 10:14:22 AM]:
1354Then I take back what I said
1355
1356Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:15:37 AM]:
1357yes but you are buying at 1 to 2 sats knowing that i am buying at 5,6 or 7 sats and more in future. It's not really like people are buying and selling continuously at a reasonable price. Especially keeping in mind that most people here won't sell below 20 sats or whatever the price needs to be. SO it's just site profit being wasted imo
1358
1359Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:16:11 AM]:
1360that's why i've not even really been doing buybacsks the past week. I think it's a waste right now
1361
1362Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 10:16:19 AM]:
1363I bought some at 5 sat and 4 sats and also bought some essentially mining when I would not have done if there was no incentive
1364
1365Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:17:07 AM]:
1366and if we make the changes i proposed then the profit you made from that would be taken into account to set your debt balance so it's not a waste
1367
1368Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:18:10 AM]:
1369how does buying bkt count toward debt balance and profiting from btc bankroll count against it?
1370
1371Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:18:14 AM]:
1372This makes no sense to me
1373
1374Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 10:18:43 AM]:
1375bankroll investment was more risk on top of the risk they already had
1376
1377Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:18:52 AM]:
1378exactly
1379
1380Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:18:58 AM]:
1381any profit you have made on the platform in any way whatsover (except betting obv) would count as some return. So that means you have made something since initial investment. so not as much to recover
1382
1383Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:19:09 AM]:
1384it's irrelevant though.
1385
1386Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 10:19:25 AM]:
1387but it wasnt profit from initial investment it was profit from another investment
1388
1389Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:19:27 AM]:
1390For what reason is it irrelevant?
1391
1392Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:19:30 AM]:
1393I mean it's best to keep the site open right?
1394
1395CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:19:51 AM]:
1396We're only getting our back if the site is sustainable and profitable
1397
1398CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:20:08 AM]:
1399* investment back
1400
1401Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:20:16 AM]:
1402so you're talking about subsidizing the site using profits from btc bankroll investors
1403
1404Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:20:20 AM]:
1405let's just be clear
1406
1407CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:20:33 AM]:
1408In which case their is profit in the site to share in an ongoing basis
1409
1410Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:20:50 AM]:
1411no
1412
1413Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:20:52 AM]:
1414how does this add to profit?
1415
1416Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 10:21:04 AM]:
1417The profit that bankroll investors made was not profit from initial investment it was profit from intirely another investment they made
1418
1419Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:21:14 AM]:
1420Michael is correct
1421
1422Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:21:16 AM]:
1423It was on the site though
1424
1425Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:21:41 AM]:
1426Why does that matter?
1427
1428Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:22:06 AM]:
1429I would never have invested in the br if I knew you would even consider doing this.
1430
1431Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 10:22:19 AM]:
1432We risked losing our entire investment and even according to you it was considered risky to have 25x when a few max bets could wipe people out
1433
1434CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:22:29 AM]:
1435This idea kills the site imo
1436
1437Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:22:42 AM]:
1438but you didn't lose
1439
1440Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:22:44 AM]:
1441no mitigation of risk in case of loss, and you're now taking from profit after we've won
1442
1443Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 10:22:54 AM]:
1444thats irrelivant
1445
1446Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:22:56 AM]:
1447if we had lost, you wouldn't have reimbursed us
1448
1449Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:23:13 AM]:
1450i'm taking nothing. my god is this for real? Is no one actually listening or am I typing in a different language?
1451
1452Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:23:45 AM]:
1453obviously I don't mean from your personal account Dean
1454
1455Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:24:02 AM]:
1456If we had lost, we would not have been reimbursed by betking
1457
1458Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:24:18 AM]:
1459Because we've already spoke and realised that there's a very real option that the site closes with no one making anything back. In the pdf it says december as that date. 
1460So if we are going to go to the effort of trying to save it, then making sure that we recover the initial funds NO MATTER HOW, seems very fair and reasonable to me
1461
1462Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:24:36 AM]:
1463you are thinking about this totally wrong
1464
1465Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:24:45 AM]:
1466I don't understand why this needs to be an inequitable adjustment
1467
1468Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:25:24 AM]:
1469I don't see how
1470
1471Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 10:25:46 AM]:
1472Don't believe that's true, you can't just elimate extra risk we took because we didn't lose it's ridiculous. That profit was not from our initial investment it was from another investment.
1473
1474Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:25:49 AM]:
1475If a change needs to be made, that's what needs to happen
1476
1477Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:25:50 AM]:
1478ok so you think I should do everything to try and recover ~$2mm from a failed business, which might be impossible btw, but while doing that it's ok for everyone else to make another few hundred k on top but I still need to get you 2mm?
1479
1480Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 10:26:25 AM]:
1481no your thinking about the site wrong
1482
1483Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:26:27 AM]:
1484because if that's the case then you make it really unmotivating for me to put another second in to this
1485
1486CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:26:32 AM]:
1487The only way we make our investment back is if there is a sustainable profitable site.  If that is not a goal then we are going to achieve nothing.     If there is no commitment to that aim then I don't see how this works.
1488
1489Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:26:37 AM]:
1490but it doesn't need to be a change that favors certain investors over others based on how successful they have been investing in br
1491
1492Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 10:26:48 AM]:
1493making investors hole should not be the goal running a profitable gambling site is the goal
1494
1495CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:26:54 AM]:
1496This
1497
1498Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:27:07 AM]:
1499i beg to differ, here's why....
1500
1501CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:27:11 AM]:
1502Everyone needs to win in a business.  You need to win and us too
1503
1504Darren G, [29/05/2019 at 10:27:12 AM]:
1505But that is probably unlikely
1506
1507Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:27:14 AM]:
1508this
1509
1510Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:27:19 AM]:
1511the site could be profitable and make $20k a year, happy with that?
1512
1513Darren G, [29/05/2019 at 10:27:29 AM]:
1514I don’t agree
1515
1516CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:27:34 AM]:
1517I feel like we go round in this circle so many times
1518
1519CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:27:50 AM]:
1520It's a waste of time
1521
1522CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:27:57 AM]:
1523No one is talking about 20k a year
1524
1525Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:28:02 AM]:
1526Dean can you explain to me how the debt balance idea makes profit more likely?
1527
1528Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:28:12 AM]:
1529what does it add?
1530
1531Darren G, [29/05/2019 at 10:28:12 AM]:
1532Sometimes it’s best to acknowledge it isn’t going to work and move on, Dean is doing us a favour here by trying to make us whole before he moves on
1533
1534CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:28:30 AM]:
1535And that only happens if the site becomes really profitable
1536
1537CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:28:38 AM]:
1538At which point there is money for us all to make
1539
1540CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:28:58 AM]:
1541We're not making 2m on scraps
1542
1543CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:29:12 AM]:
1544If the point is make the 2m and close a profitable site then it's a waste of time
1545
1546CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:29:17 AM]:
1547That mentality is broken
1548
1549Darren G, [29/05/2019 at 10:29:25 AM]:
1550Those are good points
1551
1552Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:30:10 AM]:
1553exactly this
1554
1555Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:30:10 AM]:
1556I feel like everyone is well aware that the site failed and was on its last legs, My only goal was to make sure investors didn't lose money investing in me. Then it's started to turn around but no guarantee that it will remain like that (hence why everyone was brought here to discuss) and i still think the goal should be to make people get as much as the original investment back as possible, preferably all. I don't see any real way we make more than that given the current outlook
1557
1558CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:30:46 AM]:
1559To me the goal is make a profitable site
1560
1561Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:30:56 AM]:
1562But how does the debt balance increase revenue?
1563
1564Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:31:05 AM]:
1565I explained above
1566
1567Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:31:19 AM]:
1568about 10-15 mins ago maybe
1569
1570Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:31:46 AM]:
1571You explained that you thought it would give investors more consistent payouts
1572
1573Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:31:49 AM]:
1574is it a waste of time? What if it takes 2-4 years to make 2mm, you want to leave it open 8 years?
1575
1576CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:32:01 AM]:
1577To make 2mm more?
1578
1579CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:32:04 AM]:
1580Yeah totally
1581
1582CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:32:07 AM]:
1583That's a lot of money
1584
1585CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:32:38 AM]:
1586To make 4mm more?  Yeah absolutely
1587
1588Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:32:49 AM]:
1589You're saying that any reorganization would be to prevent failure of betking or get back to reasonable profit level
1590
1591Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:32:52 AM]:
1592well maybe i'll be in a better frame of mind about the whole thing if that is looking likely but right now I don't see me running the site 8 years from now. It's been 6
1593
1594Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 10:33:32 AM]:
1595u cant auto pilot?
1596
1597Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:33:59 AM]:
1598I feel like that's an issue to address at that time based on results and options that we may not have now
1599
1600Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:34:04 AM]:
1601like selling the site
1602
1603Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:34:06 AM]:
1604etc
1605
1606Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:34:09 AM]:
1607no, that was all part of the other proposals, you know the stuff players care for, features, games etc, all ideas in the pdf. This that I am discussing now is only about making BKB investors get their return faster and that happens if they get a bigger share of the profit that the site is currently making or will make.
1608As said, how much of the 170k we made in past few months have you seen?
1609
1610CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:34:28 AM]:
1611None that's true
1612
1613Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:35:08 AM]:
1614Which is because of depressed token price right?
1615
1616Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:35:17 AM]:
1617no
1618
1619Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:35:27 AM]:
1620?
1621
1622Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:35:58 AM]:
1623token price was the intended means for investors to make the extra profit on commission wasn't it?
1624
1625Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:36:17 AM]:
1626players can mine new tokens with +ev betting and new tokens are being mined faster than we can burn them, it will take a long time before bkb investors start seeing any of the profit with that, then add th fact all the tokens in airdrop and other promos
1627
1628Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:36:32 AM]:
1629exactly
1630
1631CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:36:37 AM]:
1632But it's hard to get incentivised about trying to help here if the aim is to just close something that is built profitblably       We're all trying a long shot, and some of the incentive has to be success.   If the point is if we succeed and everuonr gets paid out you want out then I'm sure we can get people to run it.  Shit I will take it off your hands.
1633
1634Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:37:24 AM]:
1635true
1636
1637Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:37:32 AM]:
1638yeah so direct buybacks make more sense
1639
1640Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:37:36 AM]:
1641I'll definitely agree to that
1642
1643Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:38:02 AM]:
1644but that's a separate issue from a limit on the profit investors can make right?
1645
1646Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:38:11 AM]:
1647but as said the goal for me is to get people their money back, that is the only thought of mine right now and that requires a profitable business. We're not making 2mm on profits of 3k a week or whatever. And that 2mm could take a long long time
1648
1649CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:38:34 AM]:
1650Wouldn't it be simpler just to make it a profit share based on who is still invested.  That way everyone gets $$$ including Dean
1651
1652Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:38:35 AM]:
1653maybe i wouldn't close, sell could be an option, but regardless the main convern is getting the initial funds asap
1654
1655CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:38:55 AM]:
1656And that helps move away from this bet mining thing
1657
1658Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:38:56 AM]:
1659I suggested this about 5 min ago
1660
1661Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:39:21 AM]:
1662what way do you mean?
1663
1664CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:39:54 AM]:
1665So if the point is to pay everyone back then if it's profit share at split of investment everyone gets paid back the same % as we go.  Including you
1666
1667CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:40:10 AM]:
1668It's just simple
1669
1670CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:40:12 AM]:
1671It's direct
1672
1673Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:40:27 AM]:
1674that's what i said though
1675
1676Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:40:43 AM]:
1677without a cap on potential returns
1678
1679Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:40:47 AM]:
1680that's the difference
1681
1682Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:40:59 AM]:
1683if someone loses 1 btc it is split say 65, 25, 10 between bankroll investors, bkb investors, site
1684
1685CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:41:42 AM]:
1686Without the cap on returns it helps keep the incentive for everyone to pitch in.   It covers both the situation if we make little or we make a lot
1687
1688CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:41:51 AM]:
1689It also gets you some money
1690
1691CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:41:55 AM]:
1692So you're not working for free
1693
1694Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:42:12 AM]:
1695and more direct and consistent returns for investors
1696
1697Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:42:22 AM]:
1698" it helps keep the incentive for everyone to pitch in. " for some reason i imagined everyone already had plenty incentive to pitch in
1699
1700CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:42:51 AM]:
1701https://t.me/c/1185068964/551
1702
1703CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:42:56 AM]:
1704That's my thoughts on that
1705
1706Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:43:02 AM]:
1707It would be difficult to quantify the difference if there's a cap or not
1708
1709Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:43:08 AM]:
1710but it's more the principal of the change
1711
1712Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:43:22 AM]:
1713there's doesn't need to be a cap
1714
1715Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:43:48 AM]:
1716I just assumed most people would want to just get the return and move on anyway since it probably still takes a long time.
1717
1718CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:44:00 AM]:
1719If that's what happens the. That's what happens
1720
1721CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:44:07 AM]:
1722But I'm still a believer we can make it big
1723
1724CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:44:12 AM]:
1725Maybe I'm a dreamer
1726
1727CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:44:14 AM]:
1728It's a good site
1729
1730Graham, [29/05/2019 at 10:44:15 AM]:
1731How about instead of a debt balance, get rid of bkt and put most of the profits if not all into other highly speculative crypto tokens, one may pay off 100x - we entered a speculative investment with betking, how about we all double down?
1732
1733Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:44:17 AM]:
1734and even if there is no cap I think the debt balance is the best way to do it until that is cleared
1735
1736CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:44:17 AM]:
1737It works wel
1738
1739Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 10:44:38 AM]:
1740No Graham lol
1741
1742Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:44:49 AM]:
1743That seems like unnecessary risk in a domain that we probably know nothing about
1744
1745Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:45:01 AM]:
1746agree, I'd lose more money doing that lol
1747
1748Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:45:07 AM]:
1749agree with patrick^
1750
1751Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:45:31 AM]:
1752also
1753
1754CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:45:33 AM]:
1755You can keep a debt balance check running if you want.  But it would be ideal to set a structure where we all win or lose together
1756
1757Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:45:34 AM]:
1758double down with what lol
1759
1760CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:45:47 AM]:
1761And that's what the lack of a cap does even if we never reach it
1762
1763Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:46:14 AM]:
1764yeah maybe debt balance is just a superficial counter for investors' benefit
1765
1766Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:46:22 AM]:
1767but idk why that would be necessary
1768
1769Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:46:33 AM]:
1770I think we all know how much we're down lol
1771
1772Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:47:35 AM]:
1773you would be surprised lol
1774
1775Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:48:15 AM]:
1776I appreciate you all being capable of rational debate even when we're all kinda frustrated and disagree
1777
1778Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:48:27 AM]:
1779I think this is helpful for everyone
1780
1781Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:48:47 AM]:
1782not sure I am lol
1783
1784Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:49:00 AM]:
1785I think we can all agree that something needs to change though
1786
1787Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:49:14 AM]:
1788and it's not as simple as just saying "add blackjack" or whatever
1789
1790CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:49:18 AM]:
1791This is my line of thinking.  If the point that Dean wants to leave is everyone is paid back - that I can understand.    But at that point a caretaker running the site, making us all a bit of money every year - if it is profitable - seems sensible to me.
1792
1793Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:49:42 AM]:
1794I'd be happy to sell or pass on in that case I think
1795
1796CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:49:46 AM]:
1797With a profit share - even if we never meet the debt cap we're all still winning
1798
1799Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:50:00 AM]:
1800agree 100%
1801
1802CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:50:07 AM]:
1803if in 2 years its - its stuck on 200k a year, hiring someone on 60k to keep it going means money in all our pockets
1804
1805Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:50:14 AM]:
1806but then you need buyer to agree to keep those terms and that makes it extremely unlikely to sell
1807
1808Graham, [29/05/2019 at 10:50:29 AM]:
1809Agree with ccn
1810
1811Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 10:50:32 AM]:
1812ill run it for less than 60k
1813
1814CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:50:50 AM]:
1815Selling it is hard - hiring caretakers probably less so
1816
1817CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:51:00 AM]:
1818It's not a 0 risk move, but its better than nothing
1819
1820Graham, [29/05/2019 at 10:51:16 AM]:
1821We could do shift work lol
1822
1823CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:51:18 AM]:
1824but to me that's the end goal, build something that is worthwhile
1825
1826CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:51:40 AM]:
1827if we get it to a place where its not all on dean, cause we can hire 1 - 2 staff then everyone wins
1828
1829Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:51:50 AM]:
1830I think we need to seriously consider removing the tokens though or making some big changes to it. Open to all ideas
1831
1832Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:51:50 AM]:
1833I think we need to seriously consider removing the tokens though or making some big changes to it. Open to all ideas
1834
1835CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:52:02 AM]:
1836Dean keeps paying back investors including himself, and we all make some money back
1837
1838CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:52:05 AM]:
1839Yes agree
1840
1841CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:52:09 AM]:
1842the +ev bet mining hurts
1843
1844CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:52:36 AM]:
1845If the profit structure was changes so more of the profit went to the ICO investors, instead of the bet miners I could live with that
1846
1847Peter, [29/05/2019 at 10:52:52 AM]:
1848I like the "share" idea. We should  be able to buy or sell our shares. Seems simple.
1849
1850Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:52:52 AM]:
1851If we keep profit sharing, I think it's pretty essential to have some way of selling shares
1852
1853CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:53:12 AM]:
1854I wouldn't go that formal, in buying'selling shares
1855
1856CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:53:17 AM]:
1857it gets complicated..
1858
1859Peter, [29/05/2019 at 10:53:26 AM]:
1860Lol same thought.
1861
1862Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 10:53:30 AM]:
1863give 48 hour notice to investors that offsite bkt will be elimated, lock the exchange, then find out everyones share including the bkt seems fair
1864
1865Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:53:40 AM]:
1866That's what tokens are for basically, and we already have basic exchange functionality
1867
1868CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:53:54 AM]:
1869this makes sense
1870
1871Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:54:01 AM]:
1872maybe more than 48, but yeah
1873
1874Graham, [29/05/2019 at 10:54:03 AM]:
1875Dean, you want to remove token and convert to a debt balance, if that mean keeping the site open do it, things can continually be adjusted, they have been so far. I don't think it should be zero sum though
1876
1877Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:54:15 AM]:
1878it would be better if it was just something behind scenese where your account gets marked as x% based on bkb or whatever, but get rid of the tokens and exchange.
1879That way players and new investors dont need to care or know about it and also any weird legal grey areas get removed
1880
1881CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:54:30 AM]:
1882this makes sense
1883
1884Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 10:54:45 AM]:
1885ok so lock all the bkt and come up the share everyone has, and u can remove the bkt
1886
1887Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 10:55:04 AM]:
1888then just do the buy backs dirently to share
1889
1890Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 10:55:11 AM]:
1891in the background
1892
1893Peter, [29/05/2019 at 10:55:40 AM]:
1894And no way to exit. All or nothing. Like a private co.
1895
1896Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:55:40 AM]:
1897That seems fair and definitely a good first step
1898
1899Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:55:47 AM]:
1900It just seems inflexible
1901
1902Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:55:58 AM]:
1903but yeah
1904
1905CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:55:59 AM]:
1906we can always introduce a token that is a profit share later
1907
1908Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:56:00 AM]:
1909what do you mean no way to exit?
1910
1911CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:56:02 AM]:
1912but for now BKT is an issue
1913
1914CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:56:08 AM]:
1915so removing it is positive
1916
1917Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:56:11 AM]:
1918no way to sell shares
1919
1920Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:56:16 AM]:
1921also people who have not swapped to bkt are an issue
1922
1923Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 10:56:50 AM]:
1924force swap them, and make them a account that funds go to
1925
1926Peter, [29/05/2019 at 10:56:59 AM]:
1927Can't sell shares. But... can sell your betking account i guess.
1928
1929Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:57:07 AM]:
1930ah right, i mean technically you could sell account or get in touch for me to do whatever changes but yeah it would be best if there was no real buy/sell going on
1931
1932Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:57:20 AM]:
1933maybe force swap and still burn if nobody claims them at the date you previously specified for swap?
1934
1935CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:57:24 AM]:
1936i think for a while no buying/selling makes sense
1937
1938CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:57:33 AM]:
1939we need to rebuild betking before anything else
1940
1941Peter, [29/05/2019 at 10:57:55 AM]:
1942Yeah no marketplace. That's ok w/ me. Private deals only.
1943
1944Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:58:22 AM]:
1945also one benefit of no token and a "private share" setup would be in future it could be much easier to sell and we woul be able to distribute some of that profit to people inistead of me keeping it all lol
1946
1947Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 11:00:10 AM]:
1948Yeah there would be alot to figure out with a sale, but it seems like it would be simpler this way
1949
1950CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:01:51 AM]:
1951so i'm all for that
1952
1953Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 11:01:57 AM]:
1954we need to think about the PR of any changes though and how to get the word out to a) not look toally stupid, b) not have people call another scam c) preferably as many investors as possible showing support publically that it's not a scam?
1955
1956CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:02:08 AM]:
1957i also agree with the suggestion to pseudo swap the BKB hold outs and let them claim later
1958
1959CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:02:22 AM]:
1960if we start drafting a bitcointalk thread
1961
1962CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:02:24 AM]:
1963and proof it here
1964
1965CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:02:31 AM]:
1966we can all be ready to support it when its launched
1967
1968Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 11:02:35 AM]:
1969cool
1970
1971Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 11:02:41 AM]:
1972yep
1973
1974CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:03:00 AM]:
1975Some people will want to sell out of BKT, so may be worth having some really low bids in
1976
1977Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 11:03:16 AM]:
1978whats happening with the bkt tho did we come to a solution?
1979
1980Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 11:03:16 AM]:
1981well, I need to go to bed. Feel free to continue discussion and leaving ideas if any. Will catch up tomorrow
1982
1983CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:03:19 AM]:
1984night night
1985
1986CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:03:21 AM]:
1987peace
1988
1989CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:03:32 AM]:
1990Get rid of it I think.  From the sounds of it most people are
1991
1992CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:03:40 AM]:
1993who own BKT are investors here
1994
1995CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:04:01 AM]:
1996so moving form BKT to private shares has little material effect from a token sidde
1997
1998Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 11:05:04 AM]:
1999Yeah But get rid of it as in the bkt count toward share even if mined or bought
2000
2001CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:05:36 AM]:
2002I agree needs to be thought carefully
2003
2004CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:05:57 AM]:
2005I would probably do the profit share for the ICO investors - in the share they were ICo investors.  & Everything else gets bought out at market price now
2006
2007CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:06:25 AM]:
2008i have more BKT than when i started, but i think share in how much is owed to ICo investors has to be the base
2009
2010CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:06:46 AM]:
2011unless someone here put a material amoutn of money into buying BKT - in which case that needs to be sorted
2012
2013CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:07:24 AM]:
2014but i think we need to understand who exactly has the BKT tokens outside of us - and if its material
2015
2016Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 11:07:30 AM]:
2017there are smaller players who played for just bkt
2018
2019Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 11:08:01 AM]:
2020I also bought millions and mined millions and I believe VG and others did the same
2021
2022CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:08:45 AM (29/05/19, 11:09:36 AM)]:
2023I think a structure was floated above, something to the extent   BankRoll Investors/ICo Holders/Outstanding BKT holders - each paid a share
2024
2025CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:09:00 AM]:
2026and we get rid of the BKT mining going forward
2027
2028Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 11:10:08 AM]:
2029I believe the plan was split based on current bkt holdings
2030
2031Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 11:10:16 AM]:
2032isn't that the only thing that makes sense?
2033
2034CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:10:20 AM]:
2035not really
2036
2037CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:10:30 AM]:
2038if the aim is to pay back ICO holders
2039
2040CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:10:38 AM]:
2041then people who bought it for nothing, get paid back the same
2042
2043CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:10:42 AM]:
2044doesn't work
2045
2046Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 11:11:00 AM]:
2047The people that took on additional risk
2048
2049Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 11:11:25 AM]:
2050otherwise you're talking about wiping mistakes made by investors that sold
2051
2052CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:11:34 AM]:
2053wiping mistakes?
2054
2055CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:11:46 AM]:
2056i'm thinking about the extra BKT that got airdropped and dumped on exchange
2057
2058Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 11:12:17 AM]:
2059Locking offsite bkt giving 48 hour notice and finding out everyone % seems most fair, and we get rid of all the airdrop people
2060
2061Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 11:12:30 AM]:
2062I think it would be very bad pr to exclude token holders that didn't invest in ico
2063
2064Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 11:12:42 AM]:
2065yeah agree with michael
2066
2067CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:13:22 AM]:
2068if the profit share is substantively distorted by those who bought on site rather than in ICO
2069
2070CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:13:32 AM]:
2071whats the point
2072
2073CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:13:58 AM]:
2074there has to be a balance point
2075
2076Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 11:14:19 AM]:
2077people that bought or mined bkt took risk of future profits, just excluding them would not fly well imo
2078
2079Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 11:14:33 AM]:
2080The point is those who hold tokens are the investors
2081
2082Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 11:14:50 AM]:
2083the fact that they got a better deal because betking wasn't doing well isn't relevant
2084
2085CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:15:07 AM]:
2086the aim is first and foremost to pay back ICO holders
2087
2088CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:15:11 AM]:
2089that's why Dean is keeping this going
2090
2091Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 11:15:15 AM]:
2092anyone that sold thought the money was worth more than their stake in the company
2093
2094Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 11:15:51 AM]:
2095That seems very arbitrary
2096
2097Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 11:15:51 AM]:
2098and I still think we have a issue with elimtating the previous profit investors made, believe it is unfair ro take it back, since had we lost we had not been paid back and it was more investment that generated that profit
2099
2100CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:16:02 AM]:
2101i agree with that
2102
2103CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:16:07 AM]:
2104bankroll profit =/= any other profit
2105
2106CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:17:37 AM]:
2107Profit Share = 50% Bankroll/35% Remaining BKB ICo Investors my %/15% Buyback outstanding BKT
2108
2109CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:17:58 AM]:
2110that's my suggestion
2111
2112CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:18:27 AM]:
2113The BKT people keep getting what they've been promised to date
2114
2115CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:18:33 AM]:
2116BKB people start getting paid back
2117
2118CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:18:39 AM]:
2119Bankroll people keep getting their $$$
2120
2121Peter, [29/05/2019 at 11:18:53 AM]:
2122All btk holders should be treated the same and in proportion to their holdings. If we even have 99% treated the same there will be a shitstorm from the 1% - even if they were airdroppers or bounty hunters. I think there should be an announcement made, then allow people to buy and sell on the exchange their bkt - it will stabilize based on transparent info provided, and then make the move back to % share based on bkt holdings. Formula for profit share needs to be agreed on.
2123
2124CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:19:07 AM]:
2125i've no itnerest in helping BKT investors who bout for 1/10000 of what i put in
2126
2127CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:19:14 AM]:
2128they can come in here and make this succesfful instead
2129
2130Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 11:19:21 AM]:
2131this
2132
2133Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 11:19:54 AM]:
2134it's not about whether we want them to profit
2135
2136CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:19:55 AM]:
2137You realise you're talking about a site that should for all intents and purposs be shut down?
2138
2139CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:20:10 AM]:
2140and the onlyu reason its not is that Dean wants to pay back BKB ICO investors
2141
2142Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 11:20:21 AM]:
2143it's about betking paying it's debts and avoiding more scam allegations
2144
2145CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:20:27 AM]:
2146if we're just going ot enrich those who chanced on BKT, only, then shut it down
2147
2148CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:20:38 AM]:
2149i'm not here for them
2150
2151Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 11:20:40 AM]:
2152it's a pr issue
2153
2154Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 11:20:45 AM]:
2155yeah but you can try and payback ico investors while screw over the other people who thought they were investing as well
2156
2157Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 11:20:46 AM]:
2158not about the money
2159
2160CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:20:54 AM]:
2161then don't screw anyone
2162
2163CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:20:59 AM]:
2164without +ev betting BKT value will rise
2165
2166CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:21:02 AM]:
2167it can still be bought back
2168
2169CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:21:13 AM]:
2170BKB people can gt some of the debt paid back directly, quicker
2171
2172Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 11:21:44 AM]:
2173seems more complicated, but may actually be better for pr
2174
2175CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:21:49 AM (29/05/19, 11:22:16 AM)]:
2176if the only solution we have  to offer is, pay out all the BKT people, then we are never seeing a cent
2177
2178CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:21:57 AM]:
2179and that sucks for all of us
2180
2181CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:22:40 AM]:
2182if you guys think its unworkable then i'm out of ideas tbqh
2183
2184Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 11:22:47 AM]:
2185I'm just saying it's essentially just clawing back equity
2186
2187CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:22:59 AM]:
2188i think you are right
2189
2190CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:23:03 AM]:
2191we need to buy back the outstanding BKT
2192
2193Peter, [29/05/2019 at 11:23:13 AM]:
2194There are no such people as "bkb" people and "bkt" people. It's a continuum. Let's look at the numbers: what % bkt held by people who never invested in bkb? Is it 5% or 85% or what?
2195
2196CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:23:24 AM]:
2197ok lets ge tthat number
2198
2199CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:23:32 AM]:
2200we need to understand the distortion
2201
2202CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:23:38 AM]:
2203if its small who cares
2204
2205Peter, [29/05/2019 at 11:24:28 AM]:
2206...right. except they need to still feel they are being treated fairly so that we don't get the bad pr.
2207
2208CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:24:35 AM]:
2209as in if its small
2210
2211CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:24:37 AM]:
2212give them the %
2213
2214CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:25:08 AM]:
2215do the straight conversion, as you're suggesting
2216
2217Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 11:25:22 AM]:
2218conversion of what?
2219
2220CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:25:25 AM]:
2221to profit share
2222
2223Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 11:25:36 AM]:
2224but if the number is bigger, it's more of an issue not to pay out bkt holders
2225
2226Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 11:25:38 AM]:
2227the 50/35/15?
2228
2229CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:25:59 AM]:
2230so the initial suggestion you guys are for - is to convert all bkt to profit share in propostion
2231
2232CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:26:29 AM]:
2233if the distortion is small, from bkb to bkt, to new investors.  Then just doing that for ease of process works
2234
2235CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:26:36 AM]:
2236right?
2237
2238CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:26:48 AM]:
2239or is this not what you propose?
2240
2241Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 11:26:52 AM]:
2242but if the difference is big, it's more of a pr issue right
2243
2244CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:27:07 AM]:
2245if its big, i reccomend the 50/35/15 approach
2246
2247Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 11:27:11 AM]:
2248maybe people won't pay attention
2249
2250CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:27:16 AM]:
2251without the +ev bet mining
2252
2253CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:27:20 AM]:
2254it'll get boought up quick
2255
2256Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 11:27:32 AM]:
2257maybe we can meet in middle and dilute them by half and keep it 50/50  bankroll investors/investors
2258
2259CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:27:44 AM]:
2260could do
2261
2262CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:27:48 AM]:
2263like i got extra BKT as well
2264
2265CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:27:50 AM]:
2266liek you guys
2267
2268CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:28:02 AM]:
2269but i'm trying to see if we can make it work from PR angle
2270
2271CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:28:08 AM]:
2272while getting to the aim
2273
2274Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 11:28:37 AM]:
2275Paying out bkt holders instead of bkb holders would definitely not be in my interest
2276
2277Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 11:28:46 AM]:
2278I just don't see how anything else makes sense
2279
2280CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:29:30 AM]:
2281so looking at the site
2282
2283CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:29:38 AM]:
2284excluding the airrop (675m tokens)
2285
2286Peter, [29/05/2019 at 11:29:43 AM]:
2287Let's get the objective numbers from Dean and then make a plan that makes sense so it's as fair as possible and turns everyone into supporters. Even some non-ico airdrop dumpers who forgot to sell.
2288
2289Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 11:29:48 AM]:
2290Dilute them by half it should seem fair since they were accumulated early before we got many halvings in so it shoudnt hurt pr much
2291
2292CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:29:50 AM]:
2293there are approx 260m tokens, out there
2294
2295CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:30:02 AM]:
2296while 450m BKB token holders to BKT
2297
2298CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:30:21 AM]:
2299so the dilution at minimum for BKB holders would be 33% - and more depending on airdrop
2300
2301Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 11:30:23 AM]:
2302there probably only about 500million bkt on site
2303
2304
2305CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:30:41 AM]:
2306https://betking.io/token
2307
2308CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:30:47 AM]:
2309just looking here, for the figures
2310
2311CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:31:49 AM]:
231233% dilution is livable i think
2313
2314Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 11:32:33 AM]:
2315Lol that's a lot
2316
2317CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:32:37 AM]:
2318if we use the 50% suggestion 17.5% is better?
2319
2320CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:33:22 AM]:
2321or continue to buy them out, as we do now, on the market
2322
2323Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 11:33:35 AM]:
2324I think it's very unlikely that very many airdropped bkt would make it back to the site in time for conversion to private shares though
2325
2326CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:33:52 AM]:
2327i'm just looking at the bet mined outstanding
2328
2329CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:34:00 AM]:
2330432m betmined
2331
2332CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:34:03 AM]:
2333233 bought back
2334
2335Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 11:34:06 AM]:
2336oh jesus
2337
2338CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:34:08 AM]:
2339that's 200 there - all earned on site
2340
2341Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 11:34:30 AM]:
2342some were sold offsite that were onsite
2343
2344Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 11:34:39 AM]:
2345probably more than came from offsite to onsite
2346
2347CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:34:58 AM]:
2348peoople who actually bought the tokens
2349
2350CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:35:05 AM]:
2351are gonna be the most enraged
2352
2353CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:35:14 AM]:
2354if they get squeezed out by a short window
2355
2356Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 11:35:22 AM]:
2357agree
2358
2359CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:35:35 AM]:
2360I don't have any better suggestions right now, so i'll summarise where we got to then sleep :)
2361
2362Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 11:35:36 AM]:
2363I would be enraged
2364
2365Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 11:36:11 AM]:
2366its probably only a few people and we can give notice, as someone said I doubt many airdropped tokens will get wind
2367
2368CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:36:46 AM (29/05/19, 11:38:08 AM)]:
2369Option 1)  Stop distributing BKT , buy back with 15% of profit, 35% to BKB holdouts, 50% to Bankroll
2370Option 2) Short window (2 days - 1 week) for on site transfer - dilute BKT holdings by 1/2 for profit share token
2371Option 3)???
2372
2373CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:37:01 AM]:
2374i'll let others hopefully get further than me
2375
2376Peter, [29/05/2019 at 11:38:24 AM]:
2377Not so much if we turn it into an opportunity to join in the profit sharing. Like I said, make an anouncement and let the dumpers meet the buyers.
2378
2379CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:38:33 AM]:
2380true
2381
2382CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:38:39 AM]:
2383good night folks catch you soon
2384
2385Redx, [29/05/2019 at 5:29:54 PM]:
2386Are we going to allow bkb holders who swaped to bkt to swap back?
2387
2388CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 6:15:29 PM]:
2389Yeah
2390
2391Graham, [29/05/2019 at 7:57:09 PM]:
2392Well I must have it muddled, but I spent btc for more bkt
2393
2394Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 7:57:21 PM]:
2395ok
2396
2397David, [29/05/2019 at 8:21:20 PM]:
2398Can someone explain to me what bet mining is?
2399
2400Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 8:22:40 PM]:
240130% of all BKT is locked. It is released when players bet using btc, eth, ltc, eos.
2402For every $ you bet you were getting 100 BKT. The reward halves every 150,000,000 released.
2403So currently the reward is 25 bkt per $1 bet
2404
2405Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 8:22:58 PM]:
2406it was to encourage betting with "real" money
2407
2408Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 8:24:13 PM]:
2409which it has done but there seems to be two types of player. Those playing with btc etc to win btc and don't care for the bkt.
2410Those who specifically bet to "mine" bkt because they can sell it for more than they lose.
2411e.g. maybe you lose $100 betting to the house edge but you can sell BKT for $110. This is a waste imo
2412
2413Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 8:26:30 PM]:
2414if you look at the betking exchange right now, there's 6mm being sold for 6 sats, 7 sats and 8 sats. At each price level there is a BKB investor who is selling 5mm BKT at each level. They got this BKT by bet mining. They wouldn't be making a loss on their bets after selling that but also essentially get more of the buyback pool from "legit" players losing and keeps us constantly buying up mined tokens at a low price
2415
2416Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 8:27:15 PM]:
2417most of the order book is actually made up of BKB holders who have gained more by bet mining or in promos like the daily leaderboard. It's not full of normal players who deposit btc to play
2418
2419Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 8:29:19 PM]:
2420also for people saying about "they risked x to get bkt or btc from investing" it still doesn't matter imo. It's in the past and you never lost.
2421
2422Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 8:34:16 PM]:
2423will get complete stats by end of the day for
24241) how much bkt is on site by non bkb holders
24252) how much bkt was earned by each person from bet mining or promos, what it cost them and if they are net +ve or not
24263) how much was bought on exchange (can also track buys on newdex) and how much was sold and what net profit is
24274) how much bkt is in airdropped accounts that still hasn't moved
24285) how much is on external exchanges
24296) how much profit bkb holders have made by investing in the bankroll
24307) How much BKB has not been swapped and how much is on site vs off
24318) price of each crypto on 4th september after ico and bkb price then
2432
2433Any others? Think this would give us enough info on what route to go
2434
2435Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 8:36:39 PM]:
2436We could probably do things in steps
24371) alert the external exchanges that we are decommissioning the token in x days and they should stop deposits and remove it
24382) warn that we are stopping deposits of it
24393) stop deposits of bkt
24404) remove bet mining (maybe do this first)
24415) remove the daily leaderboard
24426) warn that we are removing the buyback pools (as we will change to splitting commission to bankrollers, bkb/bkt holders, site
2443
2444Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 8:38:41 PM]:
2445this was the price of crypto on 4th september when we finalised at end of ico
2446
2447Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 8:39:11 PM]:
2448btc: 4596.8, eth: 351.21, ltc:78.51
2449
2450Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 9:25:05 PM]:
2451Should we just announce now that we will stop bet mining on say Friday?
2452
2453Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 9:27:01 PM (29/05/19, 9:27:07 PM)]:
2454remove both bet mining and the daily leaderboard (lb could be replaced with a non bkt one in future)
2455
2456Nicola, [29/05/2019 at 9:57:55 PM]:
2457Can you recap the main points of what'll done?
2458
2459Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:28:28 PM]:
2460There's 670 accounts (not individuals as some are owned by same person) who have BKT balance on BetKing that don't have a BKB balance and didn't swap BKB.
2461This totals 69.5 million BKT
2462
2463Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:37:24 PM]:
2464from breif check it looks like at least 5% of that is owned by bkb investors who have bkb offsite.
2465the rest have either recieved in bet mining + leaderboard, affiliate earnings or airdrop
2466
2467Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:39:11 PM]:
2468quite weird to see someone with a buy order of 69 million too lol, that is not me
2469
2470Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:41:11 PM]:
2471537mm BKT on site held by people who have bkb or swapped bkb for bkt
2472
2473Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:53:02 PM]:
2474while checking here there's only been 470 accounts that have bet on site since feb, a lot will be multiaccounts too, pretty small number of players
2475
2476Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 11:34:19 PM]:
2477ok can everyone vote over the next 24 hours on first step to stop bet mining?
2478we can do either
24791) bet mining will stop on x date 
24802) bet mining will stop when x tokens mined, next logical one would be 450mm as that would have been next halving of the reward.
2481we can say that all those tokens reserved for mining will be burned on that date too.
2482
2483this seems the least disasterous changed from a pr standpoint and we could give it a week or two to see how volume is after mining stops?
2484
2485Graham, [29/05/2019 at 11:37:45 PM]:
2486?2
2487
2488John Deer, [29/05/2019 at 11:39:36 PM]:
2489#2
2490
2491Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 11:40:22 PM]:
2492there was also an option of not removong bet miing that i forgot to list
2493
2494Graham, [29/05/2019 at 11:43:19 PM]:
2495Still #2
2496
2497CCN CCN, [30/05/2019 at 12:06:41 AM]:
24981
2499
2500KingGD, [30/05/2019 at 1:30:25 AM]:
2501I want to vote#1 actually as soon as possible, however #2 looks more reasonable to users.
2502
2503David, [30/05/2019 at 1:51:10 AM]:
25041
2505
2506Peter, [30/05/2019 at 2:15:48 AM]:
25071 with an explanation that shows benefits of the decision. No casino gives such a +ev game. It's a free atm for anyone smart enough to automate and rapidly cash out, driving price down to minimum.
2508
2509Dean (BetKing Admin), [30/05/2019 at 3:25:33 AM]:
2510ok so, 2 vote to cancel on next halving, 4 vote for cancel on a date, i assume asap.No one against removing bet mining.
2511I'd vote for removing it aap too.
2512anyone else? i think we can do it as early as friday or sat
2513
2514Dean (BetKing Admin), [30/05/2019 at 3:35:52 AM]:
2515just got a message from the guys at Chintai exchange looking to claim BKT for their users from the airdrop.
2516looking at the accounts there's some people who have 50,000 to 100k eos and one account that has 300,000 eos.
2517we were doing 3.2 BKT per eos in the accounts (up to a max of 250,000 eos).
2518
2519be alright i them getting the tokens meant they would play on site with their eos but probably unlikely
2520
2521Dean (BetKing Admin), [30/05/2019 at 3:38:45 AM]:
25221699283 eos in total in their accounts so about 5.6mm BKT that would be distributed.
2523doesn't sound too much, worth a try?
2524
2525Dean (BetKing Admin), [30/05/2019 at 3:42:13 AM]:
2526risking 5.4mm extra bkt tokens that we can buy back cheap to make up to $11mm in eos? ?
2527
2528CCN CCN, [30/05/2019 at 3:43:07 AM]:
2529I'd just say we don't give tokens to exchange accounts
2530
2531CCN CCN, [30/05/2019 at 3:43:31 AM]:
2532If other eos people didn't play
2533
2534CCN CCN, [30/05/2019 at 3:43:36 AM]:
2535Not sure why these guys would
2536
2537Dean (BetKing Admin), [30/05/2019 at 3:47:16 AM]:
2538i had contacted them initially, back in feb. It's been a hassle for them to try and work out the amount in accounts apparently and just got back with amounts today. But I did say we probbaly can't. but if we drop and it brings noting and we remove the token then no real harm anyway? At worse we could buy them back for 1 satoshi each or less maybe, 0.054 btc
2539
2540Dean (BetKing Admin), [30/05/2019 at 3:53:07 AM]:
2541and these guys would get more of a notification as they would get told by exchange too
2542
2543Dean (BetKing Admin), [30/05/2019 at 4:07:57 AM (30/05/19, 4:46:29 AM)]:
2544even the guy at the exchange thinks it's best to not give out the tokens ?
2545
2546Peter, [30/05/2019 at 6:00:16 AM]:
2547You announced it with no reason why or benefit. So far no big reaction in tg group. Even 1 guy interested in investing lol. Surprising.
2548
2549Dean (BetKing Admin), [30/05/2019 at 6:02:43 AM]:
2550there was a small sell on our exchange and on newdex
2551
2552Peter, [30/05/2019 at 6:09:40 AM]:
2553...and the one guy in the tg chat wondering how we make money when people lose their bets. Unreal. We need more players like that.
2554
2555Dean (BetKing Admin), [30/05/2019 at 8:27:53 PM]:
2556So first step done then. Bet mining will be removed on Sturday.
2557Do we wait a week or more before deciding anything else to do with token to see how bet volume is after removing it or do we still move to removing tokens totally as discussed?
2558
2559Dean (BetKing Admin), [30/05/2019 at 8:29:11 PM]:
2560As a side note, there's still a few people who haven't swapped their BKB yet. I gave a deadling of august 19th. Should I try contacting them all again or wait until we decide what's next? I made it clear that no one will be able to deposit or swap BKB for BKT after august, they will lose initial investment if they don't
2561
2562CCN CCN, [30/05/2019 at 8:43:44 PM]:
2563The main issue is resolved imo.  Happy to wait and see what happens with bet volume first
2564
2565Dean (BetKing Admin), [30/05/2019 at 9:34:23 PM]:
2566well there's still the profit distribution issue.
2567
2568Dean (BetKing Admin), [30/05/2019 at 9:34:53 PM]:
2569If we are going to burn the tokens reserved for bet mining and now not distributing to exchanged (just turned down chintai) should we just burn the airdrop reserves too this weekend?
2570
2571Dean (BetKing Admin), [30/05/2019 at 9:35:39 PM]:
2572that would burn 48% of all tokens
2573
2574Graham, [30/05/2019 at 9:39:09 PM]:
2575Yes, may as well.