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106:46] Mordragon-Wolfe: I'm going to start creating solar systems for my planets, After I figure out all the orbits I'm going to  need a good way to display them all. Anyone know of any resources that might help?
2[06:49] Axiem: So
3[06:49] Axiem: If you want simple, Universe Sandbox 2 is reasonable
4[06:49] Axiem: But
5[06:49] Axiem: So, what I did was found a nice Python library called rebound
6[06:50] Axiem: And ended up kiiiinda writing out a whole simulation of my solar system
7[06:50] Axiem: Including outputting animation and stuff like that
8[06:50] Axiem:
9nzara-big.mp4
102.41 MB
11[06:51] Axiem: (Though, I'm actually in the middle of a rebuild of the solar system for...reasons...so that's innaccurate for the current incarnation, and I'm not sure if I'll do the simulation stuff this time around)
12[06:51] Mordragon-Wolfe: I would use US2 to test all the orbits but I was thinking like something resembling a poster, like the kinds NASA hands of to school.
13[06:52] Axiem: Oh, you're talking more on the graphical design side?
14[06:54] Mordragon-Wolfe: Yeah, also, I used US2 to make solar system for Canesia a while back. But after putting Earth in the orbit of Canesia and setting the right luminosity of my sun, Earth totally froze over. I followed the instructions from the videos perfectly so I'm not sure what happened.
15[06:55] Axiem: I honestly have no real experience with US2. I pretty much hopped right into using Rebound to simulate stuff, because it also allowed me to do things like simulate the long-term stability of things (viz. I ran simulations over millions of years and checked that things weren't too far out of whack). It possible it wasn't doing something right around greenhouse or something like that
16[06:56] Axiem: I personally am not bothering too much with temperature checking; I intentionally set Mto's orbit and the star's luminosity such that for its tropical year and rotation rate, it receives the same amount of sunlight as Earth does, if that makes sense?
17[06:56] Axiem: And I'm just handwaving the difference there
18[06:57] Axiem: But beyond that sort of thing, I really don't know. I also don't know how much I trust US2's simulation of things, to be honest. But that's just me
19[06:57] Mordragon-Wolfe: Well, US2 doesn't let you create objects from scratch, they give you a selection of existing things and you modify those, maybe that has something to do with it.
20[06:58] Axiem: As for the graphical design side, sadly, I can't really help you. I know how to write programs for a bunch of stuff, but put me in front of a graphics program and I paralyze with knowing nothing about how to do anything in it. I can't draw worth anything
21[06:58] Axiem: Other people might have suggestions, though
22[06:58] Mordragon-Wolfe: Considering how politicized climate science is, I'm not sure I believe everything I hear about it.(edited)
23[06:59] Axiem: To be fair, the politicization of climate science is a relatively recent phenomenon, as I understand it
24[06:59] Axiem: It was a shift that happened (in America) sometime in the 80's
25[07:00] Nahualli: What really irks me, and disappoints me as the greatest failing of our race, is that all of our science is hyper-political
26[07:01] Nahualli: Our best bastions for independent research happens at colleges and universities, because after that you sell yourself out to the highest bidder most of the time, except when it comes to like, physics and astronomy.
27[07:02] Mordragon-Wolfe: Not necessarily, depends on the college too.
28[07:04] Mordragon-Wolfe: I heard recently something that when like this, "Today global warming is accepted science by a majority of scientists, but 1000 years ago the majority of scientists said the Earth was flat."(edited)
29[07:05] Mordragon-Wolfe: Meaning science is based on facts, not opinions.(edited)
30[07:05] Mordragon-Wolfe: (Damn you iPad for changing everything I type.)
31[07:06] Mordragon-Wolfe: In the 70s one of the covers of Newsweek said the next Ice Age was coming.
32[07:06] Axiem: > 1000 years ago the majority of scientists said the Earth was flat.
33This is blatantly untrue
34[07:07] Mordragon-Wolfe: The Greeks knew the Earth was round, yeah.
35[07:07] Nahualli: Verily
36[07:07] Axiem: Scholars have known the Earth was round since...I think it was 200 BC, when Eratosthenes (spelling?) actually figured out the radius to something like 10%
37[07:08] Nahualli: Something to do with obelisks and shadows, yeah?
38[07:08] Nahualli: I forget the exact experiment he did
39[07:08] Mordragon-Wolfe: Me too, but I know what you are talking about.(edited)
40[07:09] Nahualli: But yeah, while science is based on facts, a lot of corps pay well to rephrase those facts, censor, and falsify them.
41[07:09] Axiem: And the whole thing with Columbus is that Columbus was an idiot who thought the Earth was half the size that everyone else did, and he used shoddy math to convince the royals of Spain to fun him
42[07:09] Mordragon-Wolfe: corps and governments.
43[07:10] Axiem: Also, I've never actually seen the supposed "global freezing" cover of Newsweek, and snopes can't find it either: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/time-magazine-cover-global-cooling/
44Snopes.com
45FACT CHECK: Is This Time Magazine Cover About “Global Cooling”?
46Despite all their bluster, climate denial blogs still do not appear to understand the difference between weather and climate.
47
48[07:10] Mordragon-Wolfe: I don't trust Snopes.
49[07:11] Axiem: Also somewhere along the line I've seen a newspaper thing from the 1930's of someone pointing out we're putting more CO2 in the atmosphere, which will have the long-term impact of warming the planet
50[07:11] Axiem: (though I can't find it now)
51[07:12] Mordragon-Wolfe: Well, the way I see it, if the sun gets hotter as it ages, then there is not a damn thing we can do about it.
52[07:12] Axiem: Do you trust Scientific American? https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/for-its-40th-birthday-let-s-retire-newsweek-s-global-cooling-story/
53Scientific American Blog Network
54For Its 40th Birthday, Let's Retire Newsweek's Global Cooling Story
55Last month, Senator Ted Cruz matter-of-factly told an interviewer that he just happened to glance at a four-decade-old article from Newsweek that very morning.
56
57[07:12] Axiem: Is the sun actually getting hotter, though? I was under the impression that it went in cycles
58[07:13] Mordragon-Wolfe: Eventually it will become a red giant.
59[07:13] Axiem: (SA actually has a picture of the article and notes that it was not, in fact, a front-page thing—and also that it was very much against even the scientific consensus at the time)
60[07:14] Axiem: That doesn't answer my question :stuck_out_tongue:
61[07:15] Mordragon-Wolfe: I judge articles on a case-by-case basis.
62[07:15] Nahualli: It won't be a giant for millennia and then some though
63[07:16] Mordragon-Wolfe: But yes, the sun goes though cycles of being warmer and cooler.
64[07:16] Nahualli: The most immediate concerns are: -human-caused global warming
65- magnetic pole reversal
66- sun activity spike cycle (CMEs, etc.)
67[07:16] Nahualli: In terms of the sun and heat
68[07:17] Axiem: For me a lot of it comes down to, when I was really digging into this stuff back in high school, I read a lot on various sides, and paid attention to the predictions made on both sides
69[07:17] Mordragon-Wolfe: The only climate change I believe in is spring, summer, autumn, and winter.
70[07:17] Axiem: Which basically came down to "the Earth will not continue getting warmer" or "the Earth will continue getting warmer"
71[07:18] Axiem: And what I've noticed is that one side consistently has had its predictions come true (namely, that the Earth has been getting hotter)
72[07:18] Mordragon-Wolfe: I've seen the contrary.
73[07:18] Axiem: And it's amusing to me that now all the people that a decade and a half ago were, as I recall, claiming the Earth would not get hotter are now saying "well yeah, Earth is getting hotter, but it's not our fault!"
74[07:19] Mordragon-Wolfe: Well, both sides of the argument can't be right.
75[07:19] Axiem: @Nahualli Is a magnetic pole reversal actually a real issue, though? As in, is it actually likely to occur soon?
76[07:19] Mordragon-Wolfe: If it happens we wouldn't notice anything except our compasses pointing "south"
77[07:20] Axiem: That we keep breaking heat records again and again around the world is sufficient evidence for me that the Earth is getting hotter
78[07:21] Mordragon-Wolfe: We've only been keeping records for 100 years, that's nothing compared to the age of the Earth.(edited)
79[07:21] Axiem: Irrelevant?
80[07:21] Axiem: Hotter relative to the 20th century is still hotter.
81[07:22] Mordragon-Wolfe: Wasn't it hotter when the dinosaur roamed the Earth?
82[07:22] Axiem: Yes, and there was more CO2 in the atmosphere, as I understand it. And?
83[07:22] Mordragon-Wolfe: Yet life existed and flourished.
84[07:22] Axiem: That doesn't contradict the basic premise that the Earth is getting hotter
85[07:22] Mordragon-Wolfe: We just have to adapt.
86[07:23] Axiem: No one is claiming life can't exist and flourish in a hotter Earth?
87[07:23] Mordragon-Wolfe: So it's getting hotter (or cooler) it's not going to be the end of the world.
88[07:23] Axiem: (Though they are pointing out that the rate of change of temperature in terms of getting hotter does actually matter in terms of evolutionary adaptability impact)
89[07:23] Axiem: That's a very different sort of argument than was being made earlier
90[07:25] Nahualli: Wasn't it more Oxygen? Not CO2?
91[07:25] Axiem: That same sort of rhetorical slide is the thing I've noticed constantly happening in the group of people who generally argue against climate change science, and it's that sort of rhetorical slide that makes me much more skeptical of them
92[07:25] Mordragon-Wolfe: In the beginning, there was no O2 until algae started converting CO2
93[07:26] Nahualli: Bugs were massive back then due to higher oxygen content in the air, allowing for more Oxygen to cycle thru bloodstreams in insects as they only breathe through the gap in their chitin
94[07:26] Nahualli: Bugs were massive back then due to higher oxygen content in the air, allowing for more Oxygen to cycle thru bloodstreams in insects as they only breathe through the gap in their chitin
95[07:26] Nahualli: Sorry, internet did a weird
96[07:26] Axiem: "The earth isn't warming up." "Actually it is, and here's evidence" "It's not caused by humans" "Actually, it's pretty hard to claim that because evidence" "Well, it doesn't matter that the earth is warming up because it's happened before"
97[07:27] Axiem: I've seen that over and over and over again, and as someone with a philosophy degree (albeit a minor), I find it exhausting
98[07:28] Mordragon-Wolfe: When I was in school we were all told pollution was bad, as I got older the same people changed it to global warming, then they changed it to climate change.(edited)
99[07:29] Axiem: The shift from "global warming" to "climate change" was, as I understand it, to point out that the effects of human-added CO2 on the atmosphere affected more than just the average global temperature (e.g. the acidity of the ocean)
100[07:29] Axiem: As for pollution/global warming, those aren't the same thing?
101[07:29] Nahualli: @Axiem also about mag reversal, idk, honestly. There was a bit of scare over it a while ago, and it died down. Afaik, we're "overdue" for a pole reversal, and it would be highly inconvenient for electronic equipment for a while, and I believe some plate interactions
102[07:30] Axiem: @Nahualli Oh, I know it would be an issue for electronics. I'm just not up on how likely we actually think it is to happen
103[07:30] Mordragon-Wolfe: Well, the media is always trying to scare us about something.
104[07:30] Mordragon-Wolfe: ...good for ratings.
105[07:31] Mordragon-Wolfe: I remember in 2012 the History Channel keep saying how the Mayans predicted the end of the world was here.
106[07:32] Axiem: > History Channel
107Well, yes, there's your problem. They abandoned any pretense of factual reporting years before that
108[07:32] Mordragon-Wolfe: I stopped watching them after that.
109[07:32] Axiem: Though the media's reporting on things is relatively orthogonal to their veracity
110[07:33] Mordragon-Wolfe:
111
112[07:33] Axiem: (Also, I learned all this stuff because I skipped the typical popular media and actually went to the sources)
113[07:34] Axiem: (Like, the scientific papers where they lay out the evidence for anthropogenic climate change are pretty impressive, as I recall, though it's been something like a decade since I've read them)
114[07:34] Nahualli: Yo realtalk though, Ancient Aliens was lit
115[07:35] Nahualli: Fun to watch and learned about some actual cool mysteries even if the "answers" were dubious at best
116[07:35] Axiem: That's being generous :stuck_out_tongue:
117[07:39] Mordragon-Wolfe: Well, we always hear about the polar ice caps are shrinking, so I decided to look up actual satellite pictures of the ice caps over time. What I found was that the pictures they use where ordered in a way to make it seem like the ice was melting but in reality, they were showing the caps during different months, The winter ones were shown first so they looked bigger, then the summer months to show them smaller.
118[07:40] Axiem: Interesting. I've never seen that in any of the animations I've encountered
119[07:42] Nahualli: Sounds about right
120[07:42] Axiem: e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlzE8z0D5Tk(edited)
121YouTube
122NASA Video
123Greenland Ice Mass Loss: Jan. 2004 - June 2014
124
125[07:42] Mordragon-Wolfe: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/environment/globalwarming/11395516/The-fiddling-with-temperature-data-is-the-biggest-science-scandal-ever.html
126Telegraph.co.uk
127The fiddling with temperature data is the biggest science scandal ever
128New data shows that the “vanishing” of polar ice is not the result of runaway global warming
129
130[07:43] Axiem: I don't trust Mr. Booker to accurately report on science
131[07:43] Mordragon-Wolfe: Isn't that the real problem in our world today, no one trust anyone anymore.
132[07:43] Axiem: Isn't he among the people who actually subscribes to "intelligent design"?
133[07:44] Mordragon-Wolfe: I don't see anything wrong with intelligent design.
134[07:44] Axiem: Aside from it being a total crock and absolute pseudoscience?
135[07:44] Axiem: If it's even close to that
136[07:44] Axiem: It's basically just creationism dressed up in sophistry
137[07:45] Mordragon-Wolfe: Well, I can only speak for myself, I believe God crested the universe, but science tells us what happens after the "Let there be Light" part.(edited)
138[07:46] Mordragon-Wolfe: aka the Big Bang
139[07:46] Nahualli: I'm just saying
140[07:47] Nahualli: If a big green Buddha showed up and told me "ayy lemme prob that booty, also it's your boy, Jesus" I wouldn't be entirely surprised
141[07:48] Mordragon-Wolfe: There is a big difference between Buddha and Our Blessed Lord.
142[07:48] Axiem: I don't know that it's at all reasonable to take a poem that belonged to a particular culture at a particular time and clearly intended to describe reality metaphorically, and to ascribe its word choices to the Big Bang
143[07:48] Nahualli: Oh no I know, I'm just making a joke of a semi-serious view
144[07:48] Mordragon-Wolfe: Well, Genesis is not a science textbook, never was intended to be.
145[07:49] Nahualli: I think what Wolfe means is that Genesis would be an interpretation of the big bang
146[07:49] Nahualli: and we gained that knowledge through God, yes?
147[07:50] Axiem: I'm saying that a lot of what I've read in Hebrew scholarship indicates that calling it an interpretation of the big bang would be a gross misrepresentation of what Bereshit is supposed to be
148[07:50] Mordragon-Wolfe: We're inching our way towards Theology now, which I could talk about for hour, literally, but it's past my bedtime, so...
149[07:50] Nahualli: Night broo
150[07:50] Mordragon-Wolfe: Haha.
151[07:51] Axiem: It's also well past my bedtime, which is gonna suuuuck for going to church tomorrow
152[07:51] Axiem: But I'll be fine :smiley:
153[07:51] Axiem: I'll just like, take a nap in the afternoon or something
154[07:51] Nahualli: But yeah, I was raised Baptist/Catholic from different sides of my parents. I'm now in some twilight realm of "figuring it all out"
155[07:54] Mordragon-Wolfe: I was raised traditional and liberal Catholic but each parent, judging by how I was treated by each, I now gravitate towards the more traditional form.
156[07:55] Nahualli: My main focus is just "if you're a good person, the big man will tell you what's up after the curtain has closed on your show"
157[07:55] Nahualli: No amount of penance via Hail Mary's will get you there
158[07:56] Axiem: You should read C. S. Lewis' The Great Divorce :smile:
159[07:56] Mordragon-Wolfe: I have, my priest gave it to me as a penance once after Confession.
160[07:57] Axiem: He actually gave you a Protestant book on theology? :stuck_out_tongue:
161[07:57] Nahualli: I also disagree heavily with the whole "you must acknowledge Jesus to get into heaven" thing, because that essentially amounts to gatekeeping and echoes the contradictions to acceptance that things like Hadiths did to the Qaran
162[07:57] Axiem: (And one that advances a...controversial...view at that)
163[07:57] Mordragon-Wolfe: My priest is definitely one of the good ones. I'm really pissed off at the bishops right after hearing the news.(edited)
164[07:58] Nahualli: To understand one's on point, sometimes you must understand your opposition?
165[07:58] Axiem: I'm more surprised that it would be assigned as penance
166[07:58] Axiem: I'm not surprised that a priest would be familiar with it. Lewis is a big name in theology
167[07:58] Nahualli: I could see that being his reasoning. It's a good idea, I mean. Pushing nothing but your own ideal's propoganda is hardly a mode for constructive thought
168[07:58] Axiem: Especially modern theology
169[07:59] Axiem: Isn't the Catholic Church the organization that coined the word "propaganda"? :stuck_out_tongue: :stuck_out_tongue:
170
171[08:02] Axiem: It did, and I got that question right on HQ too :smile:
172[08:03] Nahualli: Anything more recent than that though?
173[08:03] Mordragon-Wolfe: https://www.ewtn.com/frspitzersuniverse/index.asp
174Fr. Spitzer's Universe | Eternal Word Television Network, Global C...
175Professor Robert George speaks with 2016 presidential candidates on moral issues.
176[08:03] Mordragon-Wolfe: Him.
177[08:04] Axiem: http://www.vaticanobservatory.va/content/specolavaticana/en.html
178Home Page Vatican Observatory
179[08:04] Axiem: There might be a couple at the Vatican Observatory
180[08:04] Mordragon-Wolfe: Big Bang theory was the idea of a Catholic priest, but he called it the Cosmic Egg theory.
181[08:04] Axiem: I wouldn't be surprised to also find a number of them as curators/experts among their vaults and museum
182[08:05] Nahualli: Aye, that's pretty cool
183[08:05] Nahualli: My mom was never science-oriented so I wasn't aware
184[08:06] Nahualli: She's smart, does a lot of tech stuff and is a well-thought person, but she just never cared for scientific pursuits
185[08:06] Mordragon-Wolfe: If you're easily offended, don't watch this... https://youtu.be/W5q4u1nE6tI
186YouTube
187MILO
188MILO: Catholics Are Right About Everything
189
190[08:06] Nahualli: My favorite topic over a glass of wine is trying to explain evolution to her bc it gets her so livid
191[08:07] Nahualli: In like a super casual way, I just do it for friendly jabs lol
192[08:07] Axiem: Uh, yeah, Milo is...let's just politely say one of the worst sources for any information you could find.
193[08:07] Nahualli: Exceedingly :joy:
194[08:07] Axiem: He is so extremely bad-faith actor
195[08:08] Mordragon-Wolfe: Actually, he's not that bad if you actually listen to him and not what the media says about him.
196[08:08] Axiem: I have listened to him. He's full of shit.
197[08:08] Nahualli: He's got a few points here and there, and the media can make him a chew toy, but man he goes a bit off the rails sometimes.
198[08:09] Mordragon-Wolfe: I love Milo.
199[08:10] Nahualli: It's not a bad idea to listen and take something from viewpoints like his though. Just as long as you don't take it all for gospel. He gets a following for a reason, not always a good one, but if you're ever adhering to everything someone else says, I like to say you're doing it wrong. I'm a rebel at heart tho ;p
200[08:11] Mordragon-Wolfe: Well, I know he's not everyone's cup of tea.(edited)
201[08:11] Mordragon-Wolfe: ...but he is one of the most lied about people in the media.
202[08:12] Axiem: I find that statement exceedingly suspect
203[08:12] Nahualli: That can be said for lots of people, sadly.
204
205Also, idk how he is now, but he used to fight the media and pissing contests like that always reflect poorly on the victims of them.
206[08:13] Nahualli: So like, he'd get super ironic and say "I'm doing this because it's what you WANT me to, and I'm only being ironic about it"
207[08:13] Mordragon-Wolfe: I bought his book Dangerous, it's fabulous.
208[08:13] Nahualli: I'll have to check it out sometime
209[08:14] Mordragon-Wolfe: I wish I have gotten the audiobook.
210[08:14] Nahualli: Audiobooks are an absolute godsend
211[08:14] Axiem: Or you could not support a toxic fascist?
212[08:14] Mordragon-Wolfe: He's not a fascist.
213[08:15] Axiem: He just hangs around with them?
214[08:15] Mordragon-Wolfe: Um, no he doesn't.
215[08:15] Axiem: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/06/milo-yiannopolous-sang-karaoke-nazi-saluting-audience/
216The Telegraph
217Milo Yiannopoulos 'sang karaoke to Nazi-saluting audience'
218Milo Yiannopoulos, the right-wing writer and activist, was filmed singing karaoke to American white nationalists throwing Hitler salutes.
219
220[08:16] Nahualli: Extreme right wing iirc, I dropped out of a lot of political spheres bc I got tired of untying my panties every night :joy:
221[08:16] Nahualli: I'm willing to be that vid is "for teh memes xd"
222[08:16] Mordragon-Wolfe: Yeah, he has talked about that incident, this is another example of how the media lies about him.
223[08:16] Nahualli: *bet
224[08:17] Nahualli: Oh God it's all coming back to me
225[08:17] Nahualli: Mmm good ol kekistan and the story of how ironic meme4channing got taken seriously on both sides bc they shitposted so hard
226[08:18] Mordragon-Wolfe: Even the headline is wrong, he's not alt-right.
227[08:18] Axiem: Except he is?
228[08:18] Axiem: I mean, he wrote for Breitbart
229[08:19] Mordragon-Wolfe: Breitbart is not alt-right, it's conservative.
230[08:19] Nahualli: wew lad
231
232This topic is a super-loaded one bc of things like this
233[08:19] Nahualli: It's been called both
234[08:19] Axiem: That's a pretty condemnatory insult for conservatives
235[08:20] Axiem: Equating them with such white supremacist trash as Breitbart
236[08:20] Nahualli: White supremacist?
237[08:20] Nahualli: Wait, why are we calling it that
238[08:21] Axiem: Because they are?
239[08:21] Nahualli: Nah, link
240[08:21] Nahualli: Because this is a topic that demands accusations like that
241[08:21] Axiem: https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/josephbernstein/heres-how-breitbart-and-milo-smuggled-white-nationalism
242BuzzFeed News
243Here's How Breitbart And Milo Smuggled Nazi and White Nationalist ...
244A cache of documents obtained by BuzzFeed News reveals the truth about Steve Bannon’s alt-right “killing machine.”
245
246[08:22] Nahualli: The Alt-Right was supposed to be a meme that got taken too far, and people ended up legitmately following it because they believed an ironic sense of dark humor that is supposed to be relegated to anonymous, close circles, should be an open way of life.
247[08:22] Nahualli: >buzzfeed
248[08:22] Mordragon-Wolfe: https://youtu.be/_9CJ-9QA-3w
249YouTube
250MILO
251Florida Professor Calls MILO a White Nationalist With Amazing Results
252
253[08:23] Mordragon-Wolfe: @Axiem you should what this.
254[08:23] Axiem: https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2016/04/28/breitbartcom-becoming-media-arm-alt-right
255Southern Poverty Law Center
256Is Breitbart.com Becoming the Media Arm of the 'Alt-Right'?
257Since its founding in 2007, Breitbart News Network has grown to become one of the most popular news outlets on the right.
258
259[08:24] Nahualli: This'll be an interesting history for people to come back to :joy:
260[08:25] Mordragon-Wolfe: SPLC is not a reliable source.
261[08:25] Mordragon-Wolfe: ...is alt-left.
262[08:25] Axiem: https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounders/milo-yiannopoulos-five-things-to-know
263Anti-Defamation League
264Milo Yiannopoulos: Five Things to Know
265Five things to know about Milo Yiannopoulos, a controversial right-wing media personality and provocateur.
266
267[08:26] Axiem: https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-lists/10-most-despicable-stories-breitbart-published-under-bannon-115278/
268Rolling Stone
269Rolling Stone
27010 Most Despicable Stories Breitbart Published Under Bannon
271Until he joined Trump’s team, Steve Bannon ran a news site that stoked hatred of everyone from women on birth control to President Obama
272
273[08:27] Mordragon-Wolfe: @Axiem, calm down dude.
274[08:27] Axiem: What makes you think I'm a dude?
275[08:27] Nahualli: Nah he's just posting links, that's probably all we need though
276[08:27] Mordragon-Wolfe: 50/50
277[08:28] Mordragon-Wolfe: Had to pick one.
278[08:28] Nahualli: We should probs wrap the topic up soon ish of move it to something
279
280And most anonymous pronouns usually default to masculine
281[08:29] Axiem: Though in defense of buzzfeed: https://www.cjr.org/watchdog/buzzfeed-milo-bannon-right-wing.php
282Columbia Journalism Review
283The beat reporter behind BuzzFeed’s blockbuster alt-right invest...
284Joseph Bernstein’s deep investigation of the inner workings of the alt-right, published October 5, was a groundbreaking look at how former Breitbart figurehead Milo Yiannopoulos, with the help of Steve Bannon, imported white nationalist and neo-Nazi ideas into mainstream po...
285
286[08:32] Mordragon-Wolfe: Milo is not alt-right. No matter how many times you say he is alt-right, he isn't.(edited)
287[08:33] Axiem: I mean, if you're willing to ignore all evidence, then okay, sure. :shrug::skin-tone-2:‍♀️
288[08:33] Axiem: Or have twisty definitions for alt-right
289[08:33] Axiem: Which is an admittedly a pretty amorphous term
290[08:34] Mordragon-Wolfe: His husband is a black man, how can he be a white supremacist,(edited)
291[08:34] Axiem: "There were slaves who once freed asked to be slaves again. How can slavery be bad?"
292[08:35] Nahualli: Ooo okay, so interesting thought more on-topic: how could we create a character or political diaspora of sorts in our world like this?
293[08:35] Axiem: (And yes, there were slaves who asked to become slaves again once freed)
294[08:36] Axiem: (It was used in the rhetoric from the pro-slavery south in defense of slavery, saying it can't be so bad because of those people!)
295[08:36] Mordragon-Wolfe: I have looked at the evidence, Milo is not alt-right, not a white supremacist.
296[08:36] Nahualli: Is there a way we can agreeably break down the aspects and ways a person is viewed to mimic real-world icons of debate?
297[08:36] Axiem: i.e. "Person with a clear track record of X has done thing that is not entirely consistent with X. How can he be X?" is a bad argument
298[08:37] Axiem: I have also looked at the evidence, and if Milo is not alt-right or a white supremacist, then he needs to stop spending so much time hanging out with them
299[08:37] Nahualli: Because like, imagine being able to have this kinda discussion, but being able to step back and go "issa game/book and it's all good". That seems like a good way to make an evocative and interesting world yeah?
300[08:38] Nahualli: It's get people emotionally and intellectually invested in a world and the elements therein
301[08:38] Nahualli: *it'd
302[08:38] Mordragon-Wolfe: Axiem, have you ever not done something and been falsely accused of doing it and no matter how many times you deny it, no one believes you?
303[08:39] Axiem: The thing is, it's rarely "just a book" or whatever. The things we read and the stories we tell matter, and affect us
304[08:40] Mordragon-Wolfe: What if those stories are written by people that have an agenda to discredit someone?
305[08:40] Axiem: I have an agenda to discredit Nazis and people who espouse Nazi views
306[08:40] Axiem: Because Nazis are FUCKING EVIL
307[08:40] Mordragon-Wolfe: Milo is not a Nazi.
308[08:40] Axiem: I didn't say he was
309[08:41] Axiem: I'm pointing out that your argument is bad.
310[08:41] Mordragon-Wolfe: And I'm pointing out that your sources are wrong.
311[08:41] Nahualli: Well yes, but there's a level of suspension you can have in the context of a fictional world that you don't get in real life. Aum Shinrikyo would be badass in a manga, but is terrifying in real life.
312[08:42] Nahualli: In a fictional setting, we'd get to decide who a "Milo-like" actually is, and then could design all of the true and false documents around him and play with how that turns out
313[08:43] Mordragon-Wolfe: If what you say about Milo were true, I would have nothing to do with him, but I've listened and read enough by him to know he is not who people say he is.
314[08:43] Axiem: So, you're saying that Milo did not, in fact, write for Breitbart?
315[08:43] Nahualli: Because as we've noticed, although there's hella information available to us in our current age, a bulk of it has varying degrees of bias and reliability, and it's often or basically impossible to find anything not at least tinted or reflected in different ways.
316[08:44] Mordragon-Wolfe: All media outlets have bias, some are more honest about it than others.
317[08:44] Axiem: And I've listened and read enough by him to know that he very much is enmeshed in the alt-right
318[08:44] Mordragon-Wolfe: Breitbart is defiantly right leaning and they don't hide it.
319[08:44] Mordragon-Wolfe: That doesn't make them alt right.
320[08:44] Axiem: "leaning" is a fucking understatement
321[08:45] Mordragon-Wolfe: What about CNN?
322[08:45] Mordragon-Wolfe: Super left leaning.
323[08:45] Axiem: HAHAH no.
324[08:45] Mordragon-Wolfe: CNN is least watched cable news station for a reason.
325[08:46] Axiem: Popularity is irrelevant to truth or political affiliation
326[08:46] Nahualli: From what I noticed a while back, Alt-Right is usually not a self-imposed title, so we could say he falls under the general umbrella of what comes to mind when people say "Alt-Right"
327[08:46] Nahualli: I don't think he would campaign under that label though.
328[08:47] Axiem: I mean, historically white supremacists haven't campaigned under the label of white supremacist, but they were still white supremacists(edited)
329[08:47] Axiem: (Though these days, there's an unnerving number of people running for office who are open about it)
330[08:47] Nahualli: This is true
331[08:48] Mordragon-Wolfe: What about black supremacists?
332[08:48] Nahualli: Black Panthers, uhh
333[08:48] Nahualli: I can't remember names
334[08:48] Mordragon-Wolfe: Not just them.
335[08:48] Nahualli: There's a few in history with agendas
336[08:49] Nahualli: But I'm blanking on my old history classes back in highschool
337[08:49] Axiem: There are orders of magnitude fewer black supremacists than white supremacists, and they also have nowhere near the level of materiel or institutional support that white supremacists have
338[08:49] Axiem: Though uh, whataboutism is also pretty bad arguing rhetoric
339[08:50] Mordragon-Wolfe: So how many of each would you estimate exist in the the US now?
340[08:51] Axiem: So, here's an Ipsos poll: http://www.centerforpolitics.org/crystalball/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/2017-Reuters-UVA-Ipsos-Race-Poll-9-11-2017.pdf
341[08:52] Nahualli: Publically representing? Whites, definitely
342[08:52] Nahualli: At least in formal areas
343[08:52] Axiem: Oh sure
344[08:52] Axiem: Polls have issues
345[08:52] Axiem: Don't get me wrong
346[08:52] Nahualli: But minorities, especially African descent on social media have had a troubling amount of the same idealogy
347[08:53] Axiem: Even the ones that aren't Russian troll accounts?
348[08:53] Mordragon-Wolfe: I think there are waaaay more Chinese trolls.
349[08:54] Axiem: The thing about "how many people support white supremacy" sorts of questions is that white supremacy is tied up historically with institutions and culture in the United States. To a certain extent, supporting the status quo is supporting white supremacy
350[08:54] Axiem: But there are a lot of people who support structurally racist institutions etc. who would themselves claim not to be racist / white supremacist
351[08:54] Axiem: And it's not always clear if it's that they're lying to the pollster, lying to themselves, or simply ignorant of the structural racism that exists
352[08:55] Nahualli: Usually it's ignorance
353[08:55] Mordragon-Wolfe: I don't care what color a person's skin is, I play World of Warcraft, they could have green, blue, or purple, skin, I don't care.(edited)
354[08:55] Nahualli: And then lying to yourself follows acknowledgement of inconvenient truths
355[08:57] Mordragon-Wolfe: I just don't understand how after everything that happened in the civil rights movement, BLM wants to return to segregation.(edited)
356[08:57] Nahualli: Yeah i think most people don't really care about skin color. But some do, and the ones that care are usually louder than the ones that don't.
357
358For example, say we're all sitting in a garden, happy, when someone shows up screaming "oh, you're letting LILACS IN THIS GARDEN?" We'd all be confused, right? We wouldn't have thought to defend the lilacs until opposition came up.
359[08:58] Axiem: Mmm, I don't know if it's as low as that. People might say or think they don't really care about skin color, but does that actually bear out in the evidence?
360[08:59] Nahualli: And then suddenly it turns out this Lilac-ist is running the paper mill upwind of you, and we have to enact lilac protection laws, which makes other flowers feel unprotected, or something like that
361[09:00] Rotaretilbo: oh no, this looks suspiciously like political discourse
362[09:00] Axiem: For example, if we take a black musician and have what she plays rated by a panel who can see her, and then have what she plays rated by a panel who can't see her; and then do the same thing with a white musician; then we should see similar scores, right?
363[09:00] Axiem: I wonder if anyone's done that sort of experiment before...
364[09:00] Nahualli: @Rotaretilbo just a bit lol
365[09:00] Mordragon-Wolfe: Maybe you should, Axiem.
366[09:01] Rotaretilbo: let's all just agree that if we put everyone in camps, no one will be left to oppress anyone
367[09:01] Nahualli: Shit u right
368[09:01] Rotaretilbo: violence is the solution, we're just not applying it broadly enough
369[09:01] Mordragon-Wolfe: I forget who said that,
370[09:01] Nahualli: Also, stereotypes and predispositions are societally inherent because humans are super good at recognizing patterns, so we're kinda screwed by our own blessings
371[09:02] Axiem: Ah, that experiment was done for sexism, not racism, my bad: http://gap.hks.harvard.edu/orchestrating-impartiality-impact-“blind”-auditions-female-musicians
372Gender Action Portal
373Orchestrating Impartiality: The Impact of “Blind” Auditions on...
374“Blind” orchestra auditions reduce sex-biased hiring and increase the number of female musicians.
375
376[09:02] Nahualli: That ends up baking into how we think we ourselves should be because of innate desires to group and belong
377[09:02] Axiem: The resume experiment's been done for racism, though, as I recall
378[09:03] Axiem: But that's a more tenuous connection vis-à-vis someone's skin color
379[09:04] Rotaretilbo: politics is just depressing, because I look at the political systems in the United States, and I think to myself "we could maybe fix this one system, if it weren't for the fact that these other five systems are also broken, and we can't fix any of them unless these other eight systems weren't also broken, etc"
380[09:04] Nahualli: We'd have to take accents and etc into account
381[09:04] Axiem: Uh
382[09:04] Axiem: Accents don't come into play on musical auditions?
383[09:04] Nahualli: @Rotaretilbo yeah, that sounds about right
384[09:04] Rotaretilbo: I mean, they could if you're doing vocals
385[09:05] Nahualli: Hey now, have you ever TRIED to sing reggae?!
386[09:05] Axiem: That they've done the experiment for sex differences leads me to believe that it wasn't vocals
387[09:05] Rotaretilbo: but basically, half our political systems were built with glaring flaws in them that we just didn't notice, and by the time they were recognized they'd been utilized to make themselves internally perpetual
388[09:05] Rotaretilbo: like gerrymandering
389[09:05] Axiem: But yeah, it could come into play with vocals. Maybe? I don't know singer training all that well
390[09:05] Rotaretilbo: or there was some kind of negative feedback loop where a bad situation was never properly addressed and just spiraled out of control and is now totally unfixable
391[09:06] Rotaretilbo: like the prison system
392[09:06] Axiem: @Rotaretilbo It doesn't help that there's a contingent of people who decry any attempt to change it, because they believe that it was perfect when it popped out of the founders' heads like Athena from the forehead of Jove
393[09:06] Slorany: > Accents don't come into play on musical auditions?
394They can
395[09:06] Axiem: (Even though it didn't, actually, pop out of the founders' heads like that)
396[09:06] Slorany: They often do actually
397[09:07] Axiem: H...how does an accent affect how you play the violin?
398[09:07] Slorany: Not that much for like poprock stuff
399[09:07] Slorany: It doesn't then
400[09:07] Slorany: But you know that singing is music?
401[09:07] Nahualli: The Prison-Industrial complex is one of the massive scourges on the US. It's horrible
402[09:07] Axiem: Yes, and I already addressed that
403[09:07] Rotaretilbo: yes, it certainly doesn't help that some people want to protect it as it was written, even though we already amended it countless times in ways I think a lot of people rather like, and even though those same people are often engaged in actively revising the intentions of some of that content, a la the 2nd amendment being about individual gun ownership
404[09:07] Slorany: Ah my bad I hadn't backread everything
405[09:08] Axiem: The experiment I dug up did it for sex differences in hiring for orchestras
406[09:08] Mordragon-Wolfe: It's all my fault, I brought up Milo, and triggered Axiem. I'm sorry.
407[09:08] Slorany: Ooooh THAT experiment
408[09:08] Rotaretilbo: I mean, it doesn't seem like anyone's getting toxic, so it's probs fine
409[09:09] Nahualli: Yeah I was scared but glad it didn't get out of hand :grin:
410[09:09] Slorany: AFAIK that experiment, while well done, did not have a very significant sample size did it
411[09:09] Axiem: Oh, sure
412[09:09] Axiem: But I was talking about it because I had thought it was done on basis of race
413[09:21] Axiem: It made the news here?
414[09:21] Slorany: I mean I usually go with "whatever US cops do is probably a bit garbage"
415[09:22] Rotaretilbo: but did it make national headlines?
416[09:22] Slorany: Cause it does seem to be that way. 
417
418And no I had never heard it
419[09:22] Axiem: That particular set of arrests? I dunno
420[09:22] Nahualli: You wouldn't be wrong about 40% of the time
421[09:22] Slorany: Oh you didn't day international
422[09:22] Slorany: Mb
423[09:22] Rotaretilbo: because you'd think 30 people being denied basic rights, as a major violation, would be newsworthy
424[09:22] Nahualli: In mundane things the police are fine, but they really need better training under heavy stress.
425[09:22] Axiem: The police were regularly doing that sort of shit for a while
426[09:22] Axiem: Yeah, you'd think.
427[09:23] Rotaretilbo: I can see that making local and probably state-wide, but at the national level, it's not flashy enough
428[09:23] Mordragon-Wolfe: I stopped watching the news, I figure if it's important I'll eventually find out, what did we do in the days before 24-hour cable news?
429[09:23] Rotaretilbo: no one died
430[09:23] Axiem: I have another friend who barely missed being kettled in his own neighborhood
431[09:23] Rotaretilbo: and by the same token, you can have a police shooting that is totally by the books, and that will make national headlines
432[09:23] Rotaretilbo: because someone died
433[09:23] Axiem: While he was walking out to dinner
434[09:23] Rotaretilbo: because that gets ratings
435[09:23] Slorany: > In mundane things the police are fine, 
436I've heard the opposite actually. That in some neighbourhoods they really weren't cops who fit in and therefore it creates a hostile climate
437[09:24] Axiem: Yeahhhh the police were not fine in Ferguson
438[09:24] Axiem: That was part of what fed into the whole thing
439[09:24] Nahualli: @Slorany those are the powertrip cops. Exception, not the rule. It does go to show that people need to be emotionally/morally screened better before becoming the law though.
440[09:24] Slorany: Ah fair
441[09:25] Slorany: But yeah I've never understood how short the training is in the us
442[09:25] Nahualli: It isn't an "all-cop stereotype", but it's one of the better know flavor of cop that'll pull you over.
443[09:25] Rotaretilbo: part of it is the demand: we really need cops, so we can't afford to screen them or train them as thoroughly
444[09:25] Mordragon-Wolfe: It depends on where they are stationed I think.
445[09:25] Rotaretilbo: part of the negative feedback loop I mentioned
446[09:25] Axiem: Some of it is that people don't want to pay tax money, so police are underfunded, especially in regards to training, as I understand it
447[09:25] Nahualli: Or they could be peachy like mine and just run the plates and check every latino
448[09:26] Rotaretilbo: crime got worse, which can partly be tied back to police behavior decades ago, and so police behavior is getting worse as a result, which is just going to make crime worse
449[09:26] Slorany: But Axiem... Taxes are theft!
450[09:26] Slorany: :p
451[09:26] Axiem: Some of it is also that police as a general rule assume they're dealing with an armed person (because of the 2nd Amendment), so they're quicker to jump to lethal force out of self-preservation
452[09:26] Mordragon-Wolfe: We pay enough in taxes, government waisted a lot of it.
453[09:26] Axiem: @Slorany That argument is bullshit.
454[09:26] Nahualli: salt and police intensifies
455[09:26] Slorany: I'm aware
456[09:26] Axiem: Good
457[09:27] Slorany: "I want the government to guarantee my rights without funding" essentially
458[09:27] Rotaretilbo: I mean, as a country founded on the principle of refusing to pay taxes fairly owed, it's not surprising that we have trouble handling and paying taxes :stuck_out_tongue:
459[09:27] Nahualli: Oh if why this is a thing, but I notice policemen tend to do racial favoritism more sometimes
460[09:27] Axiem: It's an open question whether the taxes were "fairly" owed :stuck_out_tongue:
461[09:27] Rotaretilbo: eh, I feel like it's only open because we've been telling ourselves they weren't fair for so long
462[09:28] Nahualli: I think it's tied to stress. Minority cops can do it less than white-ish cops depending on where they grew up so it might be an impulse thing
463[09:28] Slorany: Yeah but those people are often the same as those claiming they have a guaranteed rights to own guns in my experience.
464So they want a right to be protected but not pay taxes to the organisation protecting it.
465[09:28] Axiem: Mmm, there was a bit of bullshit going on there in terms of how Britain was treating its colonies
466[09:28] Rotaretilbo: the colonists started a war with the French that cost the English dearly, and had been refusing to pay taxes on tea up to this point and had also refused representation in parliament, so the British lowered taxes on tea and cracked down on smuggling
467[09:28] Rotaretilbo: and the colonists flipped their shit
468[09:28] Axiem: The whole idea of colonies was to send people to a place to extract wealth and send it all back to the home country
469[09:29] Slorany: Well yeah colonies weren't the best I think we all know that :p
470[09:29] Axiem: But yes, Britain did also have a point about the French–Indian war :smile:
471[09:30] Rotaretilbo: it's no surprise that our first government was so utterly disasterous that it was on the brink of collapse when we scrapped it and tried again
472[09:30] Axiem: And the southern colonies were also afraid that Britain was going to free the slaves in America, so they weren't exactly happy with that idea
473[09:30] Rotaretilbo: states will voluntarily pay taxes to a federal body with no power; what an idiotic notion
474[09:30] Axiem: (Though this was probably a rumor spread by northern colonies to try to convince the south to join the revolution)
475[09:31] Axiem: The Articles of Confederation were quite...interesting, yah :smile:
476[09:31] Rotaretilbo: it's a miracle we won the war
477[09:31] Nahualli: Hella
478[09:31] Axiem: We didn't win; we simply didn't lose
479[09:31] Rotaretilbo: when the colonial army basically had to be funded by a handful of wealthy benefactors
480[09:31] Nahualli: Even more correct lol
481[09:32] Mordragon-Wolfe: At least our Founders were smart enough to include a mechanism in the Constitution to eventually end slavery.
482[09:32] Rotaretilbo: because after the threat of the British had diminished, the "voluntary" tax payments died out
483[09:32] Nahualli: Britan's Vietnam
484[09:32] Axiem: We cheated with the French, and so then Britain was fighting with France and with Spain
485[09:32] Nahualli: *Britain
486[09:32] Nahualli: I'm ashamed my phone didn't autocorrect that tbh
487[09:32] Axiem: The Founders had no intention of ending slavery
488[09:33] Mordragon-Wolfe: I swear my iPhone and iPad do it on purpose.
489[09:33] Rotaretilbo: there were probably two or three points where we stood to have no standing army in the colonies at all to oppose British takeover, because the states were already reneging on their agreements
490[09:33] Mordragon-Wolfe: Actually they did.
491[09:33] Axiem: There were some of them who thought it was plausible, sure
492[09:33] Rotaretilbo: the Founders were a fairly diverse group, ideologically speaking, so I wouldn't be surprised if a few had
493[09:34] Axiem: Also fair. There probably was an abolitionist at the table
494[09:34] Axiem: But on the whole, they benefitted too much from slavery to want to get rid of it
495[09:34] Nahualli: I think one of the strongest points the Founders had was their willingness to concede some changes to a later time
496[09:34] Axiem: The Amendment thing was a good idea in general, but it wasn't some trap to stop slavery. It was a realization that they were fallible
497[09:34] Nahualli: They understand the need for a time and place for things, and that some must come after others.
498[09:35] Rotaretilbo: I assume you're referring to the trap of the House of Reps
499[09:35] Axiem: No
500[09:35] Slorany: That's when I can't participate anymore cause I don't know the founding fathers all that well :p
501[09:35] Rotaretilbo: by making it based on population, it got southern representatives to argue that slaves counted as people
502[09:35] Mordragon-Wolfe: A lot people criticize them for owning slaves, but what they fail to understand, it was illegal to free your slave until you died. Many of the founders wrote it into their wills that their slaves were to be freed.
503[09:35] Axiem: Uh, that's going to need some cites
504[09:36] Rotaretilbo: mine or Wolf's?
505[09:36] Nahualli: That's pretty sweet if true
506[09:36] Axiem: The claim that it was illegal to free slaves
507[09:36] Rotaretilbo: good, because I'm way too lazy to cite sources right now :stuck_out_tongue:
508[09:36] Axiem: I'm aware of the three-fifths compromise and why it happened :stuck_out_tongue:
509[09:37] Rotaretilbo: beyond pointing to the video series I watched about the Articles of Confederation and later the Constitution
510[09:37] Nahualli: But also, sometimes slaves were better off with their owners, and this could be true for a few generations. Problem was, then one person was bad and we see the flaws of how the slave can't back out of being a family member, in a sense
511[09:38] Mordragon-Wolfe: PragerU has a lot of videos on these topics, well researched and cited. Unfortunately they have been the target of censorship recently.
512[09:38] Axiem: Here's what I can dig up of Virginia law in 1782:
513[T]hose persons who are disposed to emancipate their slaves may be empowered so to do, and the same hath been judged expedient under certain restrictions: Be it therefore enacted, That it shall hereafter be lawful for any person, by his or her last will and testament, or by any other instrument in writing, under his or her hand and seal, attested and proved in the county court by two witnesses, or acknowledged by the party in the court of the county where he or she resides to emancipate and set free, his or her slaves, or any of them, who shall thereupon be entirely and fully discharged from the performance of any contract entered into during servitude, and enjoy as full freedom as if they had been particularly named and freed by this act.
514
515Which uh...doesn't jive
516[09:38] Rotaretilbo: ehh....
517[09:38] Axiem: PragerU is a known propaganda outlet that makes up facts
518[09:38] Rotaretilbo: PragerU is not the source I'd want to go to
519[09:39] Rotaretilbo: as an institution that cries about censorship by a private institution trying to make money while also arguing that private institutions should be allowed to do what is necessary to make money
520[09:43] Slorany: "this is something that was written and here is the proof"
521vs
522"some people who've made mistakes before and are known for repeatedly doing so say that isn't the case"(edited)
523[09:44] Mordragon-Wolfe: Redactions are made all the time but no one ever sees them.
524[09:44] Slorany: at least link the source instead of simply saying it exists :p
525[09:44] Nahualli: Just right now it looks like either it was untrue, or there was something extra in their case that prevented the normal law from being followed fully.
526[09:44] Nahualli: So everything's fine if you've got a link to the proof
527[09:44] Slorany: The thing with "burden of proof" is that it also has "proof" in it(edited)
528[09:45] Axiem: It's not a question of "like". It's a question of "does this organization regularly deliberately misrepresent history?" and for PragerU, the answer is "yes"
529[09:45] Mordragon-Wolfe: Also have to consider unwritten laws too. That is another topic can be consider.
530[09:45] Nahualli: In any case, at least give us the proof from PragerU and have us find evidence to the contrary
531[09:46] Mordragon-Wolfe: Honestly, I feel like even if I did give proof, Axiem wouldn't believe it.
532[09:46] Axiem: I believe proof that is actual evidence
533[09:46] Axiem: From a reputable source
534[09:47] Rotaretilbo: alright
535[09:47] Rotaretilbo: so I'm looking into the law
536[09:47] Mordragon-Wolfe: Like Rolling Stone Magazine?
537[09:47] Rotaretilbo: the whole thing seems to come from this book that claims that Jefferson couldn't free his slaves upon his death
538[09:47] Rotaretilbo: because the law changed to prohibit it
539[09:47] Rotaretilbo: and then quotes the law Wolf mentioned
540[09:47] Rotaretilbo: but it quotes it incompletely
541[09:47] Nahualli: now THIS is podracing
542[09:47] Mordragon-Wolfe: lol
543[09:47] Rotaretilbo: Wolf's quote appears to be complete
544[09:48] Rotaretilbo: but basically, Jefferson could have freed his slaves under that law, but did not
545[09:48] Mordragon-Wolfe: Washington freed his slaves.(edited)
546[09:48] Rotaretilbo: Washington does appear to have freed his slaves upon death
547[09:48] Rotaretilbo: but could presumably have freed them sooner, though I'm too lazy to research further
548[09:48] Axiem: He could have
549[09:49] Axiem: And I'm not disputing that some people freed slaves upon their deaths
550[09:49] Slorany: Didn't Jefferson say somethin to the effect of "if I could win this war without freeing an slaves I' do it"?
551[09:49] Slorany: I seem to recall that
552[09:49] Axiem: That's not what I would consider much of a vote in their favor though
553[09:49] Slorany: or was it Washington
554[09:49] Mordragon-Wolfe: Anyway, my comments on PragerU were general, not necessary in relation to this topic.
555[09:49] Axiem: "Oh hey, I'm doing this horrifically evil thing! I could stop doing it now, but it's so good for me, I'm not going to! But sure, whatever, after I'm dead, I guess"
556[09:49] Rotaretilbo: I believe you're thinking of a quote often attributed to Lincoln regarding the Civil War, Slor
557👍
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559[09:50] Slorany: Ah perhaps
560[09:50] Rotaretilbo: the quote is "If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that."(edited)
561[09:50] Slorany: yes it does seem like it, I'm googling at the speed of fingers on a keyboard
562[09:50] Slorany: my bad, not relevant here
563[09:51] Axiem: Washington also put out an ad for capturing his runaway slaves: http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_vault/2015/07/10/george_washington_and_slavery_1761_newspaper_ad_seeking_four_fugitive_slaves.html
564Slate Magazine
565George Washington’s 1761 Ad Seeking Four Fugitive Slaves
566George Washington placed this ad, seeking four fugitives, in the Maryland Gazette, on August 20, 1761. At this point in time, Washington, who had been ...
567
568[09:51] Mordragon-Wolfe: Oh shit, it's almost 4 AM here.
569[09:51] Rotaretilbo: it is mildly relevant insofar as most of that stuff I typed is often redacted
570[09:51] Slorany: That said I did stumble upon this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson_and_slavery wich might contain several sources relevant to this discussion
571[09:51] Axiem: (Yes, it's slate, which is on the left in terms of bias, but the pic is legit)
572[09:52] Rotaretilbo: though I think we're somewhat off topic
573[09:52] Nahualli: I forget they made their S's wrong
574[09:52] Rotaretilbo: we were discussing the founders building mechanisms into the Constitution and surrounding systems to eventually lead to abolition
575[09:53] Axiem:
576Jefferson freed five slaves in his will, all males of the Hemings family. Those were his two natural sons
577
578
579Wait, so you're telling me that this man kept his own sons as slaves?
580😂
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582[09:53] Nahualli: I will always read English from the revolutionary era with a lisp because of that godforsaken s
583[09:53] Mordragon-Wolfe: Okay guys and gals and attack helicopters, I got to go to bed, I hope none of you hate me because I started this whole discussion.
584[09:54] Nahualli: Nah u good man, peace out
585[09:54] Axiem: Like, the idea of even remotely doing that sort of thing to my own children is just...stomach-curdling
586[09:54] Axiem: How vile of a person must you be to keep your own children as slaves?
587[09:55] Rotaretilbo: my normal social circle has an out-and-out alt-right "gas the kikes, put the gays to the chair, and firing squad the furries" and a person I'd describe as on the cusp of being regressive left in it, so I'm pretty desensitizes to political opinions at this point
588[09:55] Nahualli: Moreover, how do you even reach that conclusion
589[09:55] Rotaretilbo: I keep weird company
590[09:55] Axiem: How do I reach the conclusion that he kept his sons as slaves? Or that it's vile to do so?
591[09:55] Rotaretilbo: one of them is an anarcho-libertarian too
592[09:55] Nahualli: Oh yeah my humor is pretty gallows given the right atmosphere, but I literally worked at Starbucks for two years so I've ligthened up a bit
593[09:56] Rotaretilbo: thing get really interesting when politics comes up
594[09:56] Nahualli: I got crucified for using soyboy as a minor joke
595[09:56] Mordragon-Wolfe: I worked 11 weeks for Starbucks.
596[09:56] AsmodeanUnderscore: I'm gonna take a guess that he fucked one of his female slaves and it's talking about the illegitimate children from there
597[09:56] Rotaretilbo: I worked like 3 months for Circle K, which technically serves coffee
598[09:56] AsmodeanUnderscore: I don't see it happening without that
599[09:57] Nahualli: That makes a lot of sense
600[09:57] Nahualli: Mild related
601[09:57] Axiem: Er, yes. The general historical consensus is that Sally Hemings is the mother of a number of Jefferson's children
602[09:58] Nahualli: Didn't Franklin have orgies while doing diplomatic meetings with the French?(edited)
603[09:58] AsmodeanUnderscore: At the same time?
604[09:58] Mordragon-Wolfe: When in Paris....
605[09:58] AsmodeanUnderscore: pelvic thrusts So yeah about the grain shipments
606😂
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608[09:58] Nahualli: It's the French aristocracy in 1700s, probably
609[09:59] Rotaretilbo: honestly, one of the only things I liked about Assassin's Creed 3 was making the revolutionaries the Templar
610[09:59] Nahualli: Big dick Benjamin won us the war bois
611[09:59] Nahualli: Wait wait wait
612[09:59] Rotaretilbo: it was all downhill from there, but that twist towards the beginning made me happy, because I'm so tired of the dressed up "history" we get fed about the revolution here
613[09:59] Nahualli: So this is what Trump was planning with those strippers
614[10:00] Nahualli: it all makes sense now
615[10:00] Mordragon-Wolfe: If you learn history from Assassins Creed, you're going to have a bad time (insert meme picture)
616[10:00] Rotaretilbo: it's less about learning and more about non-educational media tending to reinforce a narrative that is largely misleading
617[10:00] AsmodeanUnderscore: Sorry I just read the rest of the chat messages
618[10:00] AsmodeanUnderscore: PragerU??
619[10:01] Rotaretilbo: that is a thing that got brought up, yes
620[10:01] Nahualli: Those are in fact, letters that form a word
621[10:01] AsmodeanUnderscore: A pretty shitty word
622[10:01] Axiem: Anyways. It's much too late, so I'm also going to head to bed
623[10:01] AsmodeanUnderscore: They're not even a real University
624[10:03] Mordragon-Wolfe: All I'm going to say is watch/read everything for yourself, be aware of bias, (including your own), don't believe every negative thing you hear about people, and make up your own mind. Trust, but verify. Good night everyone. :wolf::heart:️
625👍
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627[10:07] AsmodeanUnderscore: I've watched enough PragerU to verify it's trash so :shrug:
628[10:11] Axiem: I don't believe every negative thing I hear about Nazis, but they're still evil :shrug::skin-tone-2:‍♀️
629[10:11] Axiem: Anyways, yes. Sleep.
630[10:11] Axiem: G'night y'all
631[10:12] Axiem: Don't descend into fascism while I'm slumbering
632😂
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634[10:17] Nahualli: Well that was fun
635[10:17] Nahualli: I'mma hit the hay too
636[10:17] Rotaretilbo: alright, so we have about 6 hours to descend into fascism
637[10:17] Nahualli: BUYS WHEELBARROWS OF BREAD
638[10:18] Nahualli: boutta go jetskiing whilst having swimmer's ear, because good decisions are for the weak
639[10:19] Nahualli: And I need me my daily dose of vitamin fun
640
641But first, my more important dose of boneless-death
642[10:20] Nahualli: :zzz: :ghost: :zzz:
643[15:42] Axiem: Six hours? I was up an hour ago :stuck_out_tongue:
644[17:43] Mordragon-Wolfe: @AsmodeanUnderscore I’d be very interested in learning how you came to that conclusion that PragerU is garbage. @Axiem I like to consider myself a person dedicated to truth, logic, reason, and facts. If you can prove to me that you are correct and I am wrong about Milo, Breitbart, PragerU, (what else did we discuss?) using only primary sources (their own words, not what other people say about them), I will disavow and no long follow them. Both of you feel free to private message me your evidence (that way the channel stays on-topic).(edited)
645[17:55] Axiem: Having spent a stint reading through the people on flat-earth forums who also claimed to want to be paragons of rationality, I’d rather spare myself the goalpost shifting and bad-faith arguing that inevitably results. I have better things to do with my time
646[17:55] Axiem: (Also, disproving someone who spouts inaccurate facts using only their own words is rather impossible. I would by necessity have to cite historians to refute PragerU’s nonsense)
647[17:56] Mordragon-Wolfe: Show me where in their videos they get their facts wrong. Just because you don’t agree with them politically doesn’t mean they are wrong.(edited)
648[17:59] Axiem: It’s not a political thing. It’s a fundamental issue of them lying
649[17:59] Mordragon-Wolfe: They are not lying.
650[17:59] Slorany: You keep that strawman going my man
651[18:00] Slorany: It's a good one
652[18:00] Axiem: Here is an example of a historian debunking one of their videos: https://mobile.twitter.com/kevinmkruse/status/996386257109508096?lang=en
653[18:01] velvetsanity: you mentioned breitbart.  show me anything breitbart has said that doesn't support a right-wing anti-democrat agenda
654[18:02] Mordragon-Wolfe: Breitbart doesn’t claim to be unbiased.
655[18:03] Slorany: but that's besides the point though
656[18:03] Mordragon-Wolfe: @Axiem I noticed the clip the historian posted is only 50 seconds, not the entire 5 minute video.
657[18:04] Slorany: That is indeed a fact.
658[18:04] Slorany: Did you also notice he posted the full vid below?
659[18:04] Slorany:
660
661[18:04] Mordragon-Wolfe: Perhaps one should watch the entire video and see what was being left out.
662[18:05] Mordragon-Wolfe: I’ve watched that video many times.
663[18:05] Slorany: okay?
664[18:06] Mordragon-Wolfe: What fact in the video are we disputing ?
665[18:07] Slorany: I'm not disputing anything, i'm pointing out that you're constantly movin the goalposts, and it's happenin so freaking fast I'm dizzy from it