P58Yt4fn

1
2voksul - Today at 3:16 PM
3So, we're gonna just try to figure out what exactly the original issue was and reach an amicable conclusion in regards to the issue, okay?
4
5Guy - Today at 3:16 PM
6okay
7
8voksul - Today at 3:16 PM
9The best way to go about this, I think, is to have you guys explain your issue (as civily as possible) now, and we'll try to reach a conclusion that appeals to all parties.
10
11TheHibikiHD - Today at 3:16 PM
12Ok z-z
13
14voksul - Today at 3:17 PM
15Also, Biki, as a girl, probably understands not wanting to fuck up your nails you just did, so I'll just be transcribing what Em says if you don't mind.
16(unedited)
17
18TheHibikiHD - Today at 3:17 PM
19What
20Oooh
21
22voksul - Today at 3:18 PM
23Em just did her nails and says "wet nails make for bad and slow typing."
24
25TheHibikiHD - Today at 3:18 PM
26I'm  tired so I'm slow
27
28voksul - Today at 3:18 PM
29It's fine.
30but when you're ready try to find a, uh, dignified way of explaining the problem you had earlier this morning that caused the whole argument in the first place.
31
32Guy - Today at 3:20 PM
33first i wanna say that, uh, i think the.. how you call it, bond or trust in the moderation of the chat is kind of broken for me and biki
34and i don't think that is gonna change any time soon
35
36voksul - Today at 3:20 PM
37The reason why there's moderation is because of issues we've had in the past.
38
39Guy - Today at 3:20 PM
40we're both feeling extremely disappointed and quite frankly.. unwanted here
41i'm just tellin you how we feel.
42
43voksul - Today at 3:21 PM
44I understand.
45
46TheHibikiHD - Today at 3:21 PM
47Yea..
48
49voksul - Today at 3:21 PM
50We love and appreciate you guys.
51
52Guy - Today at 3:21 PM
53i dont need to beg to be able to talk to my friends, to be able to bring up my side of the story, to defend myself
54
55voksul - Today at 3:21 PM
56The reason why I muted you was because the argument was getting very aggressive and when I don't invoke mod stuff, we end up with half the chat leaving and hating eachother.
57
58Guy - Today at 3:22 PM
59and it feels awfully like if i ever dare bring up anything that's on my mind i'll be muted.
60And what ended up happening? Other than the fact that many people in the chat are now even more hesistant about talking
61
62voksul - Today at 3:22 PM
63The issue, again, isn't that you brought up an issue, rather that you brought it up in an aggressive way.
64But before we even get to that
65
66Guy - Today at 3:23 PM
67I understand that but you need to understand that the way you handled this issue has been, in my opinion, very disrespectful, wrong, demeaning, condescending and counter-effective.
68
69voksul - Today at 3:23 PM
70we need to address the issue that started this entire thing in the first place, which I'm not entirely sure is because it was muddled in a sea of personal attacks.
71
72Guy - Today at 3:24 PM
73You can't seperate the two issues because i don't know what of my words now will get me muted again and if you'll ever try to listen, you need to understand that something has been broken.
74and we can't just move on and drop the matter.
75
76voksul - Today at 3:24 PM
77Good: "I feel like Emily is a bit moody and self-concerned." Bad: "Anime is an obnoxious bitch."
78
79Guy - Today at 3:26 PM
80Do you know how unbelievably humiliating it is to see people talk about you to your face, see people say things about you that aren't true and having to rely on another person who i didnt want to bring up to this in the first place but she was the only one who was willing to stand up for me and see her lose her mind and i can't do anything because i can't talk? and knowing that the one that's keeping you from talking is supposed to be a friend?
81
82voksul - Today at 3:26 PM
83Again, and I cannot stress this enough, you weren't muted for bringing up an issue with a chat member.
84
85Guy - Today at 3:26 PM
86Again, you say that, and you need to understand that it doesn't matter. at the end of the day, i raised my voice and you didn't let me express myself.
87i had problems with your behavior and instead of trying to manage the situation, you silenced the situation.
88That's not how it's supposed to run.
89
90voksul - Today at 3:27 PM
91The intention was to not silence it permanently, but it let you calm down enough to actually pontificate what your conflict is.
92Because as you were in chat, you were lashing out with pointed attacks and being incredibly disruptive.
93
94Guy - Today at 3:28 PM
95nonetheless it was extremely humiliating.
96and i disagree that my behavior was as out of line as you describe it, i think youre making a huge exaggeration.
97
98voksul - Today at 3:28 PM
99I apologize for that, but it was needed.
100We're not really going to be able to achieve any reasonable discussion if we can't disentangle the initial issue and the conflict over muting.
101
102Guy - Today at 3:30 PM
103again, you may apologize and i respect that, but it's hard to regain trust. we're both feeling extremely humiliated.
104okay, biki do you have anything to add
105
106voksul - Today at 3:32 PM
107The entire point of mediating the initial problem here is to prove to you that it's possible to have an intelligent and productive discussion about the issues without resorting to direct conflict.
108Em says she's not really entirely sure what the initial problem was, too.
109
110TheHibikiHD - Today at 3:37 PM
111Back..sorry i dont feel so very good..but yea it was very sad that guy had to be muted. And that I think this chat should be able to finish talking about what they feel. Cuz it is very humiliating to be muted. And it breaks the trust even more..and im not the person to argue nor discuss.. but i had enough so I broke v-v
112
113voksul - Today at 3:37 PM
114I understand that muting isn't pleasant, but it's to avoid further escalation while we deal with the issue not in front of the children.
115Again, we have to talk about what caused this issue to escalate, because by the time I muted you you were hurling abuse in general chat.
116
117Guy - Today at 3:38 PM
118it doesnt make it a viable solution for the future.
119it only made things worse and as i said, broke the trust between the chat and the mods.
120
121voksul - Today at 3:39 PM
122Then what is? We used to have no formal mod structure and what happened was that every time there was an argument, literally 50% of the Discord left and had to be reinvited.
123I muted you because you refused to agree to have a calm discussion at that point.
124But seriously.
125
126Guy - Today at 3:39 PM
127people are still pissed off, youre just silencing the problem.
128
129voksul - Today at 3:39 PM
130We need.
131Okay.
132
133Guy - Today at 3:40 PM
134In fact I agreed to have a calm discussion about a 50 times, you just refused to let me discuss it.
135It just reinforces the fact that some people in this chat are more important than others
136
137voksul - Today at 3:40 PM
138Are we talking about post-or-pre mute trying to discuss your issue with Emily?
139
140Guy - Today at 3:41 PM
141Which is already why some people have left the chat and some people are now a lot more quieter.
142post.
143
144voksul - Today at 3:42 PM
145Forgive me if I wasn't entirely confident you woudn't continue to lash out when you were likening me to a dictator while pleading to be unmuted.
146
147Guy - Today at 3:42 PM
148if you don't think that you've dealt this in a completely wrong way then frankly, nothing is gonna change.
149Because you were absolutely acting like some sort of a tyrant over this chat, deciding who gets to talk and who doesn't, who gets to be in the group and who doesn't.
150for the purpose of keeping things mellow? the things weren't mellow at any point.
151
152voksul - Today at 3:44 PM
153This isn't 4chan and I don't want the Discord to end up a shithole like 4chan. Most communities on the internet are moderated because sometimes conflicts escalate and sometimes there are problems. 
154The entire point is that there is a way to have an intelligent, mature and productive conversation about your problems with some of the peopel on this chat.
155
156TheHibikiHD - Today at 3:44 PM
157Brb..dad needs help..
158
159voksul - Today at 3:44 PM
160That's fine.
161
162Guy - Today at 3:45 PM
163this isn't a "community" this is a bunch of friends.
164The way to not having an intelligent, mature and productive conversation is to mute people.
165
166voksul - Today at 3:45 PM
167It's okay to have issues with people in this chat. It's okay to want those issues addressed. But the way to go about it is not getting into a screaming match in general chat.
168
169Guy - Today at 3:45 PM
170you need to realize that. and you need to realize that right now you've effectively made this chat a hierechy system
171where some people are more important than the others and if you open your mute, you might get punished.
172Doesn't matter if your intentions were good or bad, that's what you effectively created and you don't even seem very remorseful over it.
173
174voksul - Today at 3:47 PM
175Guy, if like, for whatever reason, Snake or Keir or Em were attacking someone and would not calm down, I would mute them for a period too.
176
177Guy - Today at 3:47 PM
178I don't believe that, to be honest.
179And again, you're highly, highly misconstructing the stuff i did and said.
180
181voksul - Today at 3:48 PM
182The mods are people I trust not to be brash about kicking or muting.
183
184Guy - Today at 3:48 PM
185I wasn't going around attacking everyone in my sight, i was having a heated conversation with emily a conversation which she took absolute part in.
186
187voksul - Today at 3:48 PM
188in
189general
190chat.
191If you wanted
192
193Guy - Today at 3:48 PM
194Doesn't mean i should be muted for it.
195
196voksul - Today at 3:49 PM
197you could have asked me, or Snake, or Keir and we would have brought you together and we could figure out what exactly the problem is
198which again, you won't tell me.
199but instead you fought in front of everyone and made Grizzly leave.
200
201Guy - Today at 3:49 PM
202You can argue about it, but at the end of the day i'm telling you what you de-facto created with.
203No, grizzly left because of you.
204
205voksul - Today at 3:50 PM
206I don't think you're ready to have an actual conversation about this issue to be completely frank because you refuse to actually talk about the matter at hand.
207
208Guy - Today at 3:51 PM
209No, I just bring up an issue that I find to be more important
210And you don't actually address
211You just keep shifting the blame on to me.
212Muting did not solve everything, aggreviated everyone in chat, reinfornced the notion that some people in the chat have control over the others and made sure that people in the future will not talk about issues that bother them. and caused someone to leave.
213
214voksul - Today at 3:52 PM
215I did. Metaphor time. It's like you're discussing Occupy Wallstreet-style issues, but then argue about global warming.
216These are independent issues and I've explained to you why moderators are necessary and not more important to you.
217
218Guy - Today at 3:53 PM
219All of that was created by your decision to mute, a decision that you're not exactly showing any remorse for.
220You can argue and argue and argue and keep arguing, voks, but again you're completely ignoring what you effectivelly created.
221I'm sure you meant well.
222
223TheHibikiHD - Today at 3:53 PM
224Back
225
226Guy - Today at 3:54 PM
227and see that's exactly the reason why no one will feel welcome to discuss their problems with you
228look how stubborn you get..
229Someone tells you that your decision did a lot of bad things and youre still arguing for it.
230
231voksul - Today at 3:54 PM
232I've had (or attempted to have) an intelligent conversation about why moderators are necessary.
233
234Guy - Today at 3:55 PM
235So now you're insinuating that I am not intelligent?
236
237TheHibikiHD - Today at 3:55 PM
238Guy is talking about an issue rn. One issue at a time..
239
240Guy - Today at 3:55 PM
241I am trying to talk about an issue that he's refusing to listen to like he has all day long.
242
243voksul - Today at 3:55 PM
244Here is why I'm so bitchy about talking about the original issue.
245Look, here is entire stance summed up.
246
247Guy - Today at 3:56 PM
248Voks you are still refusing to listen to a word I am saying
249And that's the core of the problem.
250
251voksul - Today at 3:56 PM
252I've directly addressed everything you've said.
253
254Guy - Today at 3:56 PM
255all day long i've been talking to you and you refused to listen to me.
256No, no you haven't.
257You're refusing to listen to me.
258
259TheHibikiHD - Today at 3:57 PM
260Like I said one issue at a time and guy wants to talk about ^that issue
261
262voksul - Today at 3:58 PM
263If we talk about the original issue, hopefully we can have a calm conversation about what exactly caused you to act abusive and disruptive in general chat. This will prove that it's possible to solve these issues without getting into a huge argument and having people feel unwanted and leave.
264
265Guy - Today at 3:58 PM
266But the original issue is 20% of the story. I am much more aggreviated about the way you handled this issue.
267
268TheHibikiHD - Today at 3:58 PM
269^true
270
271Guy - Today at 3:58 PM
272The core of all of this is the way you and emily handled what happened after.
273if you listened to me you'd know that..
274
275voksul - Today at 3:58 PM
276I've explained, repeatedly, why the mods and mutes exist.
277I did.
278You think that muting insinuates a power structure that makes you and other non-moderators sub-class people.
279
280Guy - Today at 3:59 PM
281I know, I know, as to create order in the chat. But no order has been created. You've created a rift in the chat.
282
283voksul - Today at 3:59 PM
284No, you have, my friend.
285
286Guy - Today at 3:59 PM
287It's not something "I think". it's something that you've created and you need to solve.
288You seem to be throwing it in the "whatever, get over it" drawer.
289
290Guy - Today at 4:00 PM
291But no, You've disrespected a large number of people in this chat and shown them that you have control over whether or not they get to speak.
292
293voksul - Today at 4:00 PM
294But I've explained why it does not and that if you feel that way it's unavoidable but ultimately the best scenario given the circumstances.
295
296Guy - Today at 4:00 PM
297What if you started to talk in a way that i deemed abusive? Would I be able to mute you?
298It's absolutely not the best scenario given the circumstances.
299
300voksul - Today at 4:01 PM
301You'd be able to tell one of the mods to. The moderators are the people I trust not to be willy-nilly with powers.
302
303Guy - Today at 4:01 PM
304and if you don't understand that you mustn't resort to the ridiculous methods of punishments then
305we don't really have much to talk here
306
307voksul - Today at 4:02 PM
308Guy, I hope you realize that you're being entirely unreasonable.
309
310Guy - Today at 4:02 PM
311not really, no, to be honest.
312I think you're the one being entirely unreasonable.
313
314voksul - Today at 4:03 PM
315I've addressed each one of your points, but they aren't satisfactory to you because they aren't what you want to hear.
316
317Guy - Today at 4:03 PM
318no group of friends will ever work when someone gets to decide when others can't talk.
319
320voksul - Today at 4:03 PM
321Instead of explaining why my counterpoints aren't valid, you disregard them entirely.
322
323Guy - Today at 4:03 PM
324Sorry, it will never work. I don't know how you work with your friends, but I am telling you it will never work.
325
326voksul - Today at 4:03 PM
327We're not all friends. We're overlapping friend groups.
328I'm not friends with everyone in this chat.
329But I am not abusive to anyone in this chat.
330
331Guy - Today at 4:03 PM
332i have in fact explained to you wholeheartedly why your counterpoints are not even addressing my points.
333Yes you are.
334Muting someone in chat and talking shit about them to their face is the definition of being abusive.
335It's, quite literally, abusing your power.
336but again, there's really no need to get upset.
337
338voksul - Today at 4:05 PM
339I didn't talk shit to your face. You were not at that point in time at all willing to have a conversation with the involved parties without resorting to personal attacks and screaming at them.
340And it seems like you still aren't entirely willing to.
341
342Guy - Today at 4:05 PM
343As i've said in the beginning of this conversation, me and biki are feeling betrayed, disappointed and unwanted in the chat, and in the context of this conversation, you're still proving us exactly why we should still feel that
344
345voksul - Today at 4:06 PM
346Again, you were not muted for having a problem with someone in chat.
347
348Guy - Today at 4:06 PM
349Voks. Not every time someone disagrees with you that means they're unwilling to have a conversation with you.
350Stop accusing me of things that are simply untrue.
351
352voksul - Today at 4:06 PM
353I'm losing my temper, and that's a difficult thing to make me do.
354I was woken up at 8:00 AM this morning and I saw you all-caps screaming at Em in the general chat.
355That is not okay.
356
357Guy - Today at 4:07 PM
358sounds to me like you're not willing to have a civil conversation.
359
360TheHibikiHD - Today at 4:07 PM
361It's true. The chat is like. You can't talk about what you feel without being "scared" of getting muted. And it's like guy says. Getting decided on who can or can't talk. That's not how it works..it's wrong.. that's also why I probably won't be talking in that chat anymore
362
363voksul - Today at 4:08 PM
364Biki, me or the other mods will not mute you unless you're being abusive in general chat.
365
366Guy - Today at 4:08 PM
367Me and biki are here if you wanna listen to our points since you're clearly not listening to them right now.
368
369voksul - Today at 4:08 PM
370Like, literally, if you had brought up this issue to me directly
371instead of getting into a shitfling match in general chat, you wouldn't be muted.
372
373Guy - Today at 4:09 PM
374one that emily started mind you.
375
376voksul - Today at 4:09 PM
377I'll directly copy and paste what I typed out for the rules.
378Please note that this means that no matter how legitimate your problem with someone is (unless they're like, livestreaming themselves kicking puppies), you are incriminating yourself if you voice  your issues within the Discord. You are breaking the rules if you publicly voice your qualms in front of everyone. Again, if it is a big issue, then you should ask the mods to mediate or deal with the problem.
379It doesn't matter who started it.
380
381TheHibikiHD - Today at 4:10 PM
382I've said my stuff..im not discussing with someone that's this stubborn..sorry but i dont have the energy for it..
383
384voksul - Today at 4:11 PM
385You have to be kidding me.
386You have not explained why my counterpoints are invalid.
387You've simply called me stubborn for not agreeing with you.
388Moderators exist because the fact of the matter is that we aren't all friends. But we should treat eachother like friends.
389but that doesn't always happen.
390
391TheHibikiHD - Today at 4:14 PM
392No idc if you agree or not with me .-. All I want is for you and guy to talk everything out. When he's happy abut it. Then I am. That's all
393
394voksul - Today at 4:14 PM
395and when that doesn't happen, if someone doesn't step in, the entire chat gets swallowed up and five or six people leave because they're offended.
396
397Guy - Today at 4:14 PM
398Because a. you're highly exaggerating the level of "abuse" i've done in chat, I honestly have not said anything extremely out of line like you're suggesting.
399and b. You're failing to understand the pandora's box you've opened. You say now "oh, but it's only going to be used in extreme cases" you're opening a manhole where a mod has the power over anyone in chat, where they're even allowed to mute someone for any reason whatsoever, where a group of friends is monitored in a way a public forum or chat would be, and it's not how it should be. Your refusal to let me back to this chat showed extreme carelessness, disrespect and humiliated members of this chat greatly and you're still to have taken any responsibility over it.
400i rather 5 or 6 people leaving than one person getting shunned out of even presenting his case.
401
402voksul - Today at 4:14 PM
403Now you're being obtuse.
404
405Guy - Today at 4:15 PM
406At the top of everything, everyone needs to have the right to defend themselves for crying out loud.
407Okay voksul, again, when you feel like you wanna have, how you call it, "civil discussion"
408
409voksul - Today at 4:15 PM
410The mute wasn't permanent, the mute was to prevent you from saying more incendiary shit and give you time to calm down.
411
412Guy - Today at 4:15 PM
413and you dont result to insulting
414which you are doing right now, by the way.
415then talk to us.
416
417voksul - Today at 4:16 PM
418Again, the problem isn't you having a problem.
419it.
420is.
421because
422you
423lashed
424out
425in
426fucking
427general.
428All you had to do was come talk to me.
429All you had to was ask for me to bring you and Em together and have a talk as a group before you started screaming in general chat.
430But you didn't.
431Guy - Today at 4:17 PM
432I didn't, you're right, i made a mistake.
433
434voksul - Today at 4:17 PM
435And that's the entire reason why you were muted.
436
437Guy - Today at 4:17 PM
438Shouldn't have "lashed out" and maybe I should have aired my grievences in a private manner rather than public.
439
440voksul - Today at 4:17 PM
441You won't be muted for having problems, you'll be muted for attacking people IN FRONT OF EVERYONE.
442Yes.
443
444Guy - Today at 4:18 PM
445But it does not justify muting.
446It did not solve anything and it only created more problems.
447
448voksul - Today at 4:18 PM
449It absolutely does.
450
451TheHibikiHD - Today at 4:18 PM
452Guy is my best friend. When he gets mad. I get mad.(if he gets hurt. I get furious.) If he's happy I am happy. So yea and if he asks me for help I'll try as best as I can. But i can only do so much before I'm done(edited)
453
454Guy - Today at 4:18 PM
455Problems that you refuse to acknowledge
456It does not justify muting.
457thank you btw biki 😦 ❤
458
459voksul - Today at 4:19 PM
460I even warned you I was going to mute you and you continued to be abusive.
461
462Guy - Today at 4:19 PM
463because i didnt think you'd actually do something so disrespectful.
464every single person in chat i talked to about it said they were shocked you actually muted me.
465
466voksul - Today at 4:19 PM
467because they've only heard you tell your side of the argument.
468
469Guy - Today at 4:20 PM
470And then you muted me so they only hear your side of the argument.
471
472voksul - Today at 4:20 PM
473and neither Boo nor Biki seem wholy committed to your point for any other reason other than that they're friends with you.
474
475Guy - Today at 4:20 PM
476how do you know? you don't know what they told me privately.
477
478voksul - Today at 4:20 PM
479Again, the mute wasn't to suppress your argument, it was to prevent you from being further disruptive at that point in time.
480
481Guy - Today at 4:21 PM
482Now you're being disrespectful again.
483
484TheHibikiHD - Today at 4:21 PM
485I do agree with guy
486
487Guy - Today at 4:21 PM
488Again you're trying to disregard the problem by saying "oh no one is even agreeing with you, there is no problem".
489Listen, at the end of the day if that's how you wanna run this server
490it's your decision dude.
491Ain't nothing I can do about it and I am not gonna raise my voice about it.
492
493voksul - Today at 4:21 PM
494I literally told you that as soon as you were willing to calm down and actually address your issue (which you still aren't, evidently, given that you refuse to even mention it) in a calm and reasonable manner outside of general chat
495I'd unmute you.
496
497Guy - Today at 4:22 PM
498But i've told you how me and biki and grizzly and amin and boot and many other people are now feeling about your behaviour and how you run this chat.
499
500voksul - Today at 4:22 PM
501But I can't exactly trust you to be reasonable when you were just yelling in all caps in general chat and comparing me to a dictator while pleading to be unmuted.
502
503Guy - Today at 4:23 PM
504you're not gonna convince me that it was the right idea
505And you're not regaining my trust or biki's trust
506we're still feeling like it's now a lot more risky to talk in the chat, like there are a group of people who have more value in the chat
507and your words won't change it because you still say that you will continue the muting policy.
508
509voksul - Today at 4:24 PM
510and I've explained to you why that feeling is unfounded.
511
512Guy - Today at 4:24 PM
513So yea, that's just the reality.
514Doesn't matter why YOU feel like it's unfounded.
515It's not gonna change a damn thing.
516You're being unreasonably stubborn.
517
518voksul - Today at 4:25 PM
519No, I'm not. You've yet to explain to me why my responses to your problems are wrong; they're just not what you wanted to hear so you ignore them.
520
521Guy - Today at 4:26 PM
522They're wrong to us because we still feel like we want to be treated equally within a group of people we count as friends
523
524voksul - Today at 4:26 PM
525It does not matter if you feel like there's a hypothetical power structure oppressing you; the fact of the matter is that there isn't.
526
527Guy - Today at 4:26 PM
528because your responses are only reinforncing the notion that you view yourself as more important in this chat and getting to decide who talks and who doesnt talk
529did you just unironically say "It doesn't matter if you feel hurt or offended, fact of the matter is youre not so get over it?"
530See, that's why I am 100% sure you're not listening to me.
531
532voksul - Today at 4:28 PM
533No, the fact of the matter is that the thing you're getting hurt or offended over doesn't exist as you imagine it.
534
535Guy - Today at 4:28 PM
536http://d278sointswlfn.cloudfront.net/8bac559e2df6b54d609f9d63d5e6a03a%2F565x0xwidth%2F75%2Fhttp%2Fblog.uloop.com%2Fuloop%2Fr%3D305%2Fjpg%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F06%2FLouis-1-450x195.jpg
537
538voksul - Today at 4:28 PM
539I understand that you feel hurt.
540
541Guy - Today at 4:28 PM
542No, you don't.
543You don't understand voks.
544
545voksul - Today at 4:28 PM
546I apologize that my actions may have caused you to feel hurt.
547
548Guy - Today at 4:29 PM
549You don't get to decide that there is no power structure to US
550you don't get to decide that the decision to mute is logical and not disrespectful to US
551maybe it is to you
552maybe you feel like there's no power structure
553But we don't share that feeling.
554
555voksul - Today at 4:29 PM
556You're actually making me angry.
557Should you have to apologize and drop your argument because you've made me feel hurt?
558
559Guy - Today at 4:30 PM
560I don't think you're in a position to have a civil discussion voksul.
561How about we continue this some other time since clearly, you're too angry to have a discussion
562annd you may lash out at any given moment
563and none of us want that
564
565voksul - Today at 4:30 PM
566You have to be kidding me.
567
568Guy - Today at 4:31 PM
569Listen, it's all good. Me and biki are going to continue feeling what we're feeling and you're gonna do nothing about it and continue to shit all over the way you feel
570and it's fine. glad we talked
571
572voksul - Today at 4:31 PM
573There is no power structure as you imagine it in the real world.(edited)
574
575Guy - Today at 4:31 PM
576Trust me we will not bring anything wrong up in the general chat, it'll be civility 101
577
578voksul - Today at 4:31 PM
579Biki's already stated that she's on your side no matter how silly it is.
580
581Guy - Today at 4:31 PM
582Ah yes, my opinions and thoughts are silly
583Thank you voksul that's not disrespectful at all
584^-^
585
586voksul - Today at 4:32 PM
587That's not what that meant and you know it.
588
589Guy - Today at 4:32 PM
590Or maybe you don't understand the concept of
591people feeling differently about things than you
592
593voksul - Today at 4:32 PM
594You feel oppressed by an imagined power structure. The power structure you think is oppressing you does not exist.
595But you feel like it's oppressing you. I can do nothing about that until you realize that there is no power structure.
596
597Guy - Today at 4:33 PM
598You just described the official motto of a tyranny, voksul.
599In an unbelievably demeaning, ironic and laughably comical way, you just described the official motto of a tyranny.
600"You feel opressed, but the power structure you think is oppressing you does not exist".
601
602voksul - Today at 4:34 PM
603I just facedesked. That isn't what tyranny is. Tyranny involves an oppressive ruler that actually, you know, exists.
604
605Guy - Today at 4:35 PM
606And yet it always tries to convince those it's oppressing that it does not exist
607Funny how that works, huh
608
609voksul - Today at 4:36 PM
610I've explained to you why it's imagined.
611
612Guy - Today at 4:36 PM
613Voksul, baby, beauty, hunny, love-nugget. I am tired of this conversation. Clearly you're angry and not able to have a civil conversation at this point in time.
614You need a few hours to calm down
615Go watch youtube perhaps?
616
617voksul - Today at 4:37 PM
618The moderators are not better than you, they are just people I personally trust and hung out with before inviting the greater portion of the people that now frequent this Discord.
619You may think they're better than you, but they aren't.
620They can be punished too if they act out of line.
621But to you, the fact that you feel like a power dynamic exists is more important than the fact taht no such power dynamic exists.
622
623Guy - Today at 4:38 PM
624But you still refuse to understand that by giving them the ability to punish people you've put them in a more special position than anyone else in the chat, a position that includes censorship if they don't like it.
625
626voksul - Today at 4:38 PM
627You are acting like a child, and it's becoming obnoxious. Immature callbacks win you no respect.
628dude
629if they censor anything
630Guy - Today at 4:38 PM
631No, I am just using the same exact words you're using.
632
633voksul - Today at 4:38 PM
634I'd remove their ability to mod.
635
636Guy - Today at 4:39 PM
637Voks, let's just put it this way.
638
639voksul - Today at 4:39 PM
640the only thing they're censoring is you being an incorrigible jerk in front of everyone.
641You are absolutely, positively crazy if you are actually convinced your viewpoint has any basis in fact.
642
643Guy - Today at 4:39 PM
644We're all good. The chat's good, no one's gonna bring anything up. But me and biki have umendable brokable bonds with you
645that you for some reason think you can fix by calling us crazy
646which is.. an interesting theory to say the least, but sure(edited)
647And that's just how it's gonna stay apparently
648So be it
649
650voksul - Today at 4:40 PM
651Then there's nothing I can do about it, and will have to live with it.
652
653Guy - Today at 4:40 PM
654As long as nobody is bringing it up, nothing's wrong
655
656voksul - Today at 4:40 PM
657I'm sorry you feel that way.
658because nothing I say will convince you otherwise.
659
660Guy - Today at 4:41 PM
661Right voks, blame me, I don't really mind.
662
663voksul - Today at 4:43 PM
664I've explained (repeatedly, I might add) why I don't think your perspective is reasonable. Instead of refuting these points, you simply say that you will judge me for not kneeling to the objections I've already addressed a dozen times at this point.
665That is where we stand right now.
666
667Guy - Today at 4:44 PM
668in your mind, i suppose. picture is kinda different from where i'm standing.
669
670voksul - Today at 4:45 PM
671I understand that you feel victimized,  but you haven't been able to argue that hat feeling of victimization is at all justified in reality.
672
673Guy - Today at 4:45 PM
674i have argued that
675you just refused my arguments
676which is fine, i suppose.
677i don't really mind
678can we wrap this up?
679
680voksul - Today at 4:46 PM
681No, I provided a counterargument to those points.
682
683Guy - Today at 4:46 PM
684my head seriously hurts
685
686voksul - Today at 4:46 PM
687a counterargument which you summarily reject.
688
689Guy - Today at 4:46 PM
690and i refuted those arguments in a fashion that's unsatisfory to you
691because i disagree with your counter arguments and their truthfulness
692
693voksul - Today at 4:46 PM
694it's unsatisfactory to reality, my friend.
695
696Guy - Today at 4:47 PM
697can we wrap this up? we'll never reach an agreement
698If you think how you see things is the ultimate reality then so be it, my friend
699.
700voksul - Today at 4:47 PM
701Like, I understand that you feel victimized but I've explained OVER AND OVER AND OVER again why the mechanisms of that victimization don't really exist.
702to which you've responded(edited)
703"Yeah, but it still feels like it does."
704and I can do nothing about that.
705
706Guy - Today at 4:48 PM
707they don't exist in your mind.
708They do exist in my mind and a lot of other people's mind.
709there IS no ultimate reality to compare to on this matter because it's all a matter of perspective
710
711voksul - Today at 4:48 PM
712and my perspective, as far as I can tell by the fact that you cannot explain why I'm wrong, more closely aligns with reality than yours.
713Are you fucking kidding me?
714
715Guy - Today at 4:49 PM
716a hierarchy is an abstract concept voksul.
717
718voksul - Today at 4:49 PM
719REALITY is the ultimate reality.
720
721Guy - Today at 4:49 PM
722you perceive something to not be a hierarchy and i perceive it to be a heirarchy.
723it's not numbers ot a table ot a window
724it's a fucking concept.
725
726voksul - Today at 4:49 PM
727Abstractness doesn't mean it doesn't have to have grounds in reality.
728
729Guy - Today at 4:50 PM
730and in my opinion it has grounds in reality, grounds which you don't think make it into a hierarchy
731guess what, neither of us are "right"
732stop trying to impose the way you view the world on other people.
733
734voksul - Today at 4:50 PM
735And your opinion is not based at all in the reality that is the REAL FUCKING WORLD.
736
737Guy - Today at 4:51 PM
738and i deem it is sbased in the reality of the real fucking world.
739Also, you're getting abusive there with your all caps and profanities.
740you don't wanna upset the mods, i heard they're trigger-happy.
741
742voksul - Today at 4:52 PM
743I apologize that from your perspective I've victimized you or created a system of victimization that offends you. But from the perspective of an omniscient, unbiased observer, your perspective is almost entirely unjustified.
744I can't do anything about your feelings if the stuf causing your feelings doesn't exist as you imagine them to.
745
746Guy - Today at 4:52 PM
747which omniscient unbiased observer? i don't see any.
748all i see is a person yelling at me that i am wrong.
749voks, seriously
750let's just stop.
751okay, please remove this channel
752i'm gonna stop typing in this channel