LuPX4F4b

1[2016-03-22 19:07:30] <o11c> Ogre: there are a distressing number of people who think rape is okay.
2[2016-03-22 19:08:30] <o11c> child rape even
3[2016-03-22 19:08:46] <o11c> and I'm not talking about statuatory, but actually physically forced
4[2016-03-22 19:14:08] <Ogre> those aren't people.
5[2016-03-22 19:14:13] <Ogre> they're ferals
6[2016-03-22 19:14:28] <AnotherLurker> Sharp?
7[2016-03-22 19:14:47] <AnotherLurker> o11c...that's a very generalized statement...
8[2016-03-22 19:15:12] <Ogre> well, tyo be fair, a number -larger than zero- would be distressing.
9[2016-03-22 19:15:16] <AnotherLurker> I am pretty sure the people who think 'rape is okay' are also lumped with "Socipathic" and "mentally unstable".
10[2016-03-22 19:19:32] <AnotherLurker> also Ogre, what's SHARP
11[2016-03-22 19:19:33] <AnotherLurker> ?
12[2016-03-22 19:19:42] <Ogre> google.
13[2016-03-22 19:19:47] <Ogre> I wouldn't want to spoil it for you
14[2016-03-22 19:20:04] <AnotherLurker> am mostly getting japanese companies
15[2016-03-22 19:20:43] <Ogre> add 'DoD' or military
16[2016-03-22 19:21:28] <AnotherLurker> OH
17[2016-03-22 19:21:31] <AnotherLurker> ...
18[2016-03-22 19:25:30] <Blackknight64> AnotherLurker: eight or so hours of my life every six or so months that I will never, ever, get back
19[2016-03-22 19:25:46] <AnotherLurker> Blackknight64, we get this sorta shit too
20[2016-03-22 19:25:59] <AnotherLurker> except its permeated in practically every history or 'cultural' presentation we get
21[2016-03-22 19:26:05] <Blackknight64> Quite simply: a class that could be summed up as such: "Don't rape people."
22[2016-03-22 19:26:12] <AnotherLurker> Sounds simmiliar to
23[2016-03-22 19:26:18] <AnotherLurker> "don't enslave and rape aboriginals"
24[2016-03-22 19:26:26] <AnotherLurker> also gotta add in 
25[2016-03-22 19:26:30] <AnotherLurker> "YOUR FAULT, ALL YOUR FAULT"
26[2016-03-22 19:26:32] <AnotherLurker> x20
27[2016-03-22 19:26:37] <Blackknight64> Yep
28[2016-03-22 19:26:43] <Blackknight64> Except it's not, but whatever
29[2016-03-22 19:26:46] <AnotherLurker> even tho half the class is from all over the place
30[2016-03-22 19:26:46] <AnotherLurker> lol
31[2016-03-22 19:27:00] <Blackknight64> Sins of the father or some bullshit
32[2016-03-22 19:27:00] * ctwelve is now known as Max_Findale
33[2016-03-22 19:27:04] <o11c> Ogre: dehumanizing them is a huge mistake
34[2016-03-22 19:27:09] <Ogre> hm?
35[2016-03-22 19:27:14] <AnotherLurker> Sins of the father don't reflect on the deeds of the son
36[2016-03-22 19:27:15] <AnotherLurker> imo
37[2016-03-22 19:27:16] <Ogre> oh, no. I'm not dehumanizing them.
38[2016-03-22 19:27:22] <Ogre> they're doing it to themselves.
39[2016-03-22 19:27:34] <o11c> that's not how it works
40[2016-03-22 19:27:40] <Ogre> It most certainly is.
41[2016-03-22 19:27:42] <Blackknight64> Yes, yes it is.tl
42[2016-03-22 19:27:42] * DeScreamsAtCustomerSupport is now known as DeShowerd
43[2016-03-22 19:27:44] <AnotherLurker> o11c, I mean they've done a goood job of dehumaniing many themselves
44[2016-03-22 19:27:50] <AnotherLurker> there's a point where you stop caring.
45[2016-03-22 19:27:51] <Ogre> And I never said they weren't still -human-.
46[2016-03-22 19:27:51] <Blackknight64> That is most precisely how it works
47[2016-03-22 19:27:51] * DeShowerd is now known as DeShowers
48[2016-03-22 19:27:56] <Ogre> just that they're not people.
49[2016-03-22 19:27:56] * Max_Findale is now known as ctwelve
50[2016-03-22 19:27:57] <AnotherLurker> Now, dunno bout y'all, for my family that was in 1967
51[2016-03-22 19:28:00] <o11c> hitler was both a human and a person
52[2016-03-22 19:28:04] <AnotherLurker> Yes
53[2016-03-22 19:28:06] <AnotherLurker> he was
54[2016-03-22 19:28:17] <AnotherLurker> the difference? He dehumanized many people
55[2016-03-22 19:28:19] <AnotherLurker> in turn he was dehumanized
56[2016-03-22 19:28:20] <o11c> did you know he killed his dog before his suicide?
57[2016-03-22 19:28:22] <AnotherLurker> shit sorta happens
58[2016-03-22 19:28:23] — ctwelve notes the early and violent application of Godwin
59[2016-03-22 19:28:27] <AnotherLurker> yes
60[2016-03-22 19:28:30] <Ogre> mmm... by my yardstick, no, he is/was not a person.
61[2016-03-22 19:28:31] <AnotherLurker> ctwelve, its kinda funny
62[2016-03-22 19:28:33] <o11c> but he was still human
63[2016-03-22 19:28:36] <Ogre> sure.
64[2016-03-22 19:28:36] <o11c> still a person
65[2016-03-22 19:28:37] <AnotherLurker> No No, Ogre
66[2016-03-22 19:28:39] <Blackknight64> Here's the thing
67[2016-03-22 19:28:40] <AnotherLurker> To me he was a person
68[2016-03-22 19:28:41] <Ogre> -everyone- is a human.
69[2016-03-22 19:28:48] <AnotherLurker> but only in the sense that he rose to power like a human could
70[2016-03-22 19:28:51] <Blackknight64> I may have loved my dog before he went rabid
71[2016-03-22 19:29:01] <Ogre> ^^^^^
72[2016-03-22 19:29:03] <Blackknight64> But when he went rabid he had to be put down
73[2016-03-22 19:29:07] <o11c> pretending that everyone one of us isn't susceptable to the same feelings, capable of the same choices, is a huge mistake
74[2016-03-22 19:29:15] <Blackknight64> No, dude
75[2016-03-22 19:29:16] <AnotherLurker> Never said they werent
76[2016-03-22 19:29:19] <AnotherLurker> neither did Ogre
77[2016-03-22 19:29:24] <o11c> oh, I don't disagree that we should have put him down
78[2016-03-22 19:29:25] <AnotherLurker> Dehumanizing =/= incompetant
79[2016-03-22 19:29:33] <Ogre> But now that he's rabid, he's not a 'beloved member of the family'... he's a rabid dog that needs to be put down.
80[2016-03-22 19:29:35] <o11c> but even criminals have rights
81[2016-03-22 19:29:40] <Ogre> or, as I put it, a 'feral'
82[2016-03-22 19:29:47] <AnotherLurker> Yes, but criminnals =/= hitler
83[2016-03-22 19:29:49] <Ogre> of course criminals have rights.
84[2016-03-22 19:29:51] <o11c> Guantanamo Bay is a terrible blight on us
85[2016-03-22 19:29:55] <o11c> AnotherLurker: wrong
86[2016-03-22 19:29:56] <AnotherLurker> nor do criminals = rabid dogs
87[2016-03-22 19:29:56] <Ogre> pfffft.
88[2016-03-22 19:29:59] <Blackknight64> ....
89[2016-03-22 19:30:02] <AnotherLurker> ..
90[2016-03-22 19:30:03] — ctwelve .........
91[2016-03-22 19:30:05] <AnotherLurker> I'm sorry?
92[2016-03-22 19:30:08] <Blackknight64> I'mma stop you right there.
93[2016-03-22 19:30:10] <AnotherLurker> No no
94[2016-03-22 19:30:12] <AnotherLurker> I wanna hear
95[2016-03-22 19:30:12] <Ogre> averrage weight gain in gitmo, 20 pounds.
96[2016-03-22 19:30:14] <AnotherLurker> the justification.
97[2016-03-22 19:30:15] <o11c> Hitler is just another Criminal
98[2016-03-22 19:30:23] <AnotherLurker> Everything he did was legal in his country
99[2016-03-22 19:30:25] <AnotherLurker> he's not a criminal
100[2016-03-22 19:30:25] <o11c> in particular, one who was at war
101[2016-03-22 19:30:28] <AnotherLurker> Evil, twisted, yes
102[2016-03-22 19:30:30] <Ogre> average weight -loss- in gen pop... 20 -or more-
103[2016-03-22 19:30:30] <AnotherLurker> criminal?
104[2016-03-22 19:30:31] <AnotherLurker> no.
105[2016-03-22 19:30:39] <o11c> which does affect relations with criminals
106[2016-03-22 19:30:46] <AnotherLurker> I say this as a jew with shitloads of family who died in the holocaust.
107[2016-03-22 19:30:54] <Ogre> gitmo - cable, access to religious materiels, catered religious food.
108[2016-03-22 19:30:59] <o11c> genocide is still a crime
109[2016-03-22 19:31:02] <AnotherLurker> Yes
110[2016-03-22 19:31:02] <AnotherLurker> It is
111[2016-03-22 19:31:11] <AnotherLurker> Internationally. But during a war spanning the globe?
112[2016-03-22 19:31:16] <o11c> Ogre: oh, and torture of course, since human rights don't apply off of US soil
113[2016-03-22 19:31:19] <AnotherLurker> No way to enforce international law without the use of a bullet and bomb
114[2016-03-22 19:31:28] <o11c> AnotherLurker: I do agree with that
115[2016-03-22 19:31:30] <Ogre> american genpop - no cable, no TV, no religious materiels unless it's something the warden approves of, and the food... jesus, the food is a crime in itself.
116[2016-03-22 19:31:38] <o11c> but he was still human, still a person, still had rights
117[2016-03-22 19:31:46] <Blackknight64> Okay.
118[2016-03-22 19:31:47] <Ogre> torture is a dangerous tool. 
119[2016-03-22 19:31:51] <Blackknight64> You win
120[2016-03-22 19:31:58] <Blackknight64> Enjoy o11c
121[2016-03-22 19:32:24] <o11c> because the moment you view him as *less* than human, you become just as bad as he was
122[2016-03-22 19:32:32] <Blackknight64> Naw dude
123[2016-03-22 19:32:32] <AnotherLurker> ?
124[2016-03-22 19:32:44] <Ogre> sorry, you're wrong.
125[2016-03-22 19:32:46] <AnotherLurker> Why o11c , isn't that -victim blaming-
126[2016-03-22 19:32:48] <Blackknight64> Switching back to compy.
127[2016-03-22 19:32:55] <Blackknight> Okay.
128[2016-03-22 19:32:56] <Blackknight> So.
129[2016-03-22 19:33:00] <Blackknight> Logical fallacy here.
130[2016-03-22 19:33:27] <Blackknight> My not caring whether or not he is a 'person' or a 'human' does not equate to the crimes committed
131[2016-03-22 19:33:30] <Blackknight> So.
132[2016-03-22 19:33:58] — Ogre cedes the Conch to Blackknight
133[2016-03-22 19:34:11] — Blackknight takes the conch, and proceeds.
134[2016-03-22 19:34:22] <Blackknight> Continuing on.
135[2016-03-22 19:34:39] <Blackknight> I could care less whether or not he was a 'nice guy' to the people in his life
136[2016-03-22 19:34:46] <Blackknight> or his justifications for his actions.
137[2016-03-22 19:34:57] <Blackknight> At the end of the day, he has broken with societal contract
138[2016-03-22 19:35:10] <Blackknight> and, going back to the rabid dog analogy
139[2016-03-22 19:35:25] <Blackknight> He must be removed for the health of the society and the population
140[2016-03-22 19:35:31] <Blackknight> Because a rabid dog will bite
141[2016-03-22 19:35:34] <Blackknight> and will transmit that shit.
142[2016-03-22 19:35:36] <Blackknight> So.
143[2016-03-22 19:35:48] <Blackknight> If you want to tell me that "I'm just as bad as he is"
144[2016-03-22 19:35:49] <Blackknight> proceed
145[2016-03-22 19:36:01] <Blackknight> because you're fundamentally flawed
146[2016-03-22 19:36:11] <ctwelve> Well.
147[2016-03-22 19:36:13] <Blackknight> And we cannot continue this conversation in any civil manner.
148[2016-03-22 19:36:16] <AnotherLurker> I don't see hitler as human, I see him as a broken man who-masqueraded as human to endear himself into power to then abuse said power (which in itself still warns about tyrants who seek power). 
149[2016-03-22 19:36:40] <ctwelve> I just watched o11c accuse AnotherLurker---A JEW whose family escaped the shoah---get told up on how he should feel about Hitler
150[2016-03-22 19:36:45] <ctwelve> that's a new one on me
151[2016-03-22 19:36:48] <AnotherLurker> "escaped"
152[2016-03-22 19:36:58] <AnotherLurker> 3/5 dead and lost everything. yep.
153[2016-03-22 19:37:05] <ctwelve> You're here.
154[2016-03-22 19:37:11] <AnotherLurker> Yes, but all of my family went to the camps.
155[2016-03-22 19:37:15] <ctwelve> In the circumstances, pretty good.
156[2016-03-22 19:37:17] — Blackknight brohugs AnotherLurker
157[2016-03-22 19:37:20] <AnotherLurker> My grandpa just survived going through auschwitz, he was lucky.
158[2016-03-22 19:37:31] <AnotherLurker> His 10 other siblings? Not so much.
159[2016-03-22 19:37:38] <AnotherLurker> anyway, please carry on ctwelve, sorry.
160[2016-03-22 19:37:48] <ctwelve> No no, there's nothing to say.
161[2016-03-22 19:37:51] <ctwelve> Here's the deal
162[2016-03-22 19:38:03] <ctwelve> Hitler wasn't a criminal. A criminal retains his humanity.
163[2016-03-22 19:38:06] <Ogre> I apologize for breaking in, but we do seem to lack a standard labelling ssytem for our conversation. I mean one thing when I say 'human' and AnotherLurker  cmeans something quite different. Perhaps we could briefly hammer out a standard?
164[2016-03-22 19:38:09] <ctwelve> There are things you do where you /forfeit/ that.
165[2016-03-22 19:38:29] <ctwelve> Well, don't distinguish between human and person
166[2016-03-22 19:38:32] <ctwelve> a person has humanity
167[2016-03-22 19:38:35] <ctwelve> until they forfeit it
168[2016-03-22 19:38:38] <ctwelve> it's hard to do that
169[2016-03-22 19:38:39] <AnotherLurker> that works.
170[2016-03-22 19:38:42] <ctwelve> but Hitler...he managed.
171[2016-03-22 19:39:17] <ctwelve> Stalin managed. Lenin...I'm not sure. I frankly do not know enough about how involved he was in the violence.
172[2016-03-22 19:39:31] <ctwelve> It's hard to cut through the propaganda, counter-propaganda, agitprop and otherwise
173[2016-03-22 19:39:50] <ctwelve> Mao certainly managed. By bodycount he's killed more people than any other human to ever live
174[2016-03-22 19:39:56] <Ogre> Pol Pot. Mao, The entire Nork Ruling family..
175[2016-03-22 19:40:17] <ctwelve> Robespierre managed it. His death toll wasn't nearly so high, but he advocated Terror in order to create a  Virtuous Society
176[2016-03-22 19:40:26] <Ogre> The japanese high command.. (unit 731, motherfuckers)
177[2016-03-22 19:40:40] <ctwelve> fundamentally, the like is reached when one is /totally okay/ with treating human beings as chattel
178[2016-03-22 19:40:43] <ctwelve> line*
179[2016-03-22 19:40:47] <AnotherLurker> Ogre, who got off scot free AFAIK
180[2016-03-22 19:40:58] <Ogre> wait, what?
181[2016-03-22 19:40:59] <o11c> I dispute that forfeiting humanity is possible. Committing crimes worthy of death, sure.
182[2016-03-22 19:41:04] <Ogre> hey,  I was -never- indicted.
183[2016-03-22 19:41:16] <o11c> Hitler did what he did because he saw Jews as less than human
184[2016-03-22 19:41:17] <AnotherLurker> Ogre, they were offered immunity if they gave up the 'medical reasearch' they aquired a la the nazis
185[2016-03-22 19:41:19] <ctwelve> that's because you've never actually had tea with evil, o11c 
186[2016-03-22 19:41:27] <o11c> evil is still human
187[2016-03-22 19:41:35] <Ogre> no, it's not.
188[2016-03-22 19:41:41] <o11c> lions aren't human, viruses aren't human
189[2016-03-22 19:41:51] <ctwelve> Well, you're either arguing over semantics, or trolling, or genuinely broke.
190[2016-03-22 19:41:54] <ctwelve> I don't know which of the three.
191[2016-03-22 19:42:00] <AnotherLurker> (though they got what was comming to them later). Turns out unit 731 [unlike the nazis to an extent] didn't have any valuable research info and it was all for the lulz
192[2016-03-22 19:42:08] <Ogre> allow me to clarify. everyone is biologically 'human'. But once you cross certain lines, you are no longer 'people'...
193[2016-03-22 19:42:15] <o11c> semantics matter here
194[2016-03-22 19:42:23] <ctwelve> okay.
195[2016-03-22 19:42:28] * Channel mode set to +m by ctwelve
196[2016-03-22 19:42:34] <ctwelve> I'm gonna tell a little story.
197[2016-03-22 19:42:41] <ctwelve> I'm not gonna say much.
198[2016-03-22 19:42:45] <ctwelve> But here's the deal.
199[2016-03-22 19:43:02] <ctwelve> I know what evil is, because I have sat across from a table with it.
200[2016-03-22 19:43:04] <ctwelve> Had tea with it.
201[2016-03-22 19:43:07] <ctwelve> shared laughs with it.
202[2016-03-22 19:43:30] <ctwelve> As we talked about the enemies he had "addressed" and the information he had to sell
203[2016-03-22 19:43:39] <ctwelve> and by 'he' I mean 'a goodly number of people'
204[2016-03-22 19:43:50] <ctwelve> There....there is a line, that can be crossed.
205[2016-03-22 19:44:01] <ctwelve> It's hard to say exactly where this line /is/
206[2016-03-22 19:44:17] <ctwelve> I can only say that, once you have /seen/ that line, you know it.
207[2016-03-22 19:44:29] <ctwelve> That line, once crossed, is like an event horizion
208[2016-03-22 19:44:35] <ctwelve> the person that crosses it is no longer human.
209[2016-03-22 19:44:39] <ctwelve> What do I mean?
210[2016-03-22 19:45:05] ⇐ Ogre quit (~matthew@Swift-5E97E81C.alamobb.net): Ping timeout
211[2016-03-22 19:45:05] <ctwelve> I mean: this person is so divorced with the social, biological, psychological and other aspects of the human condition that they are /not one of us/ anymore
212[2016-03-22 19:45:13] <ctwelve> You may doubt this is true.
213[2016-03-22 19:45:25] <ctwelve> That is only because you have never seen it up close and personal.
214[2016-03-22 19:45:36] <ctwelve> So, I'm gonna pull out of this, now.
215[2016-03-22 19:45:56] ⇐ CWSmith quit (~Chris@Swift-FC802576.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com): Ping timeout
216[2016-03-22 19:46:06] <ctwelve> But...be careful. Some of us here have Seen the Elephant and we really, truly cannot abide this kind of...naivety.
217[2016-03-22 19:46:13] * Channel mode set to -m by ctwelve
218[2016-03-22 19:46:17] <o11c> ctwelve: I have only one question for you then: were the Nuremburg trials a mistake?
219[2016-03-22 19:46:21] <AnotherLurker> ...
220[2016-03-22 19:46:25] <o11c> should we have just slaughtered them all without a trial?
221[2016-03-22 19:46:26] <AnotherLurker> I am going to walk away for two minutes.
222[2016-03-22 19:46:31] <ctwelve> yes.
223[2016-03-22 19:46:34] <ctwelve> yes we should have.
224[2016-03-22 19:46:36] <AnotherLurker> We did
225[2016-03-22 19:46:37] <AnotherLurker> Heheh
226[2016-03-22 19:46:38] <AnotherLurker> We did man.
227[2016-03-22 19:46:47] <AnotherLurker> Look up "Operation Wrath of god"
228[2016-03-22 19:46:47] <ctwelve> The trials were only useful as a means to determine /who was guilty/
229[2016-03-22 19:46:53] <o11c> that is a very dangerous attitude if you care about civilization
230[2016-03-22 19:47:03] <ctwelve> no, it really isn't.
231[2016-03-22 19:47:11] <ctwelve> It is the attitude necessary to /preserve/ it.
232[2016-03-22 19:47:20] <o11c> there is a distressing trend today of viewing a *lot* of people as less than human, so it doesn't matter if they are subject to mob justtice
233[2016-03-22 19:47:23] <ctwelve> Because the world is a very evil place, and men are evil.
234[2016-03-22 19:47:37] <ctwelve> And you're conflating two entirely different impulses.
235[2016-03-22 19:47:45] <ctwelve> both can be violent, absolutely.
236[2016-03-22 19:47:47] <o11c> no, you're failing to conflate
237[2016-03-22 19:47:58] <o11c> or failing to see the sameness
238[2016-03-22 19:48:04] <Blackknight> No.
239[2016-03-22 19:48:08] <Blackknight> Different animals, dude.
240[2016-03-22 19:48:12] <o11c> obviously when *you* decide someone is less than human, you're right?
241[2016-03-22 19:48:26] <ctwelve> Depends. What did he do?
242[2016-03-22 19:48:28] <o11c> and somehow, law is not enough to punish them?
243[2016-03-22 19:48:39] <ctwelve> And when the evil is the law?
244[2016-03-22 19:48:40] <ctwelve> What then?
245[2016-03-22 19:49:02] <ctwelve> When the man you must punish heads an army, what court can legitimately try him?
246[2016-03-22 19:49:03] <o11c> then produce a new law by consensus, and then judge by that
247[2016-03-22 19:49:14] <ctwelve> Under what jurisdiction?
248[2016-03-22 19:49:19] <ctwelve> A hitler occurs.
249[2016-03-22 19:49:21] <o11c> we do have a constitional right to declare war
250[2016-03-22 19:49:22] <ctwelve> I am another nation.
251[2016-03-22 19:49:33] <ctwelve> And that is...not trial, nor court.
252[2016-03-22 19:49:35] <ctwelve> That is license to destroy.
253[2016-03-22 19:49:43] <o11c> it is a form of trial
254[2016-03-22 19:49:49] → Ogre joined (~matthew@Swift-5E97E81C.alamobb.net)
255[2016-03-22 19:49:50] <o11c> and it is still subject to laws
256[2016-03-22 19:50:01] <ctwelve> in what way is it a trial?
257[2016-03-22 19:50:03] <Ogre> crap, I missed the good stuff.
258[2016-03-22 19:50:09] <ctwelve> Okay, let me explore this
259[2016-03-22 19:50:21] <ctwelve> A trial is held by a court, with jurisdiction, which seeks to apply law.
260[2016-03-22 19:50:23] <o11c> the key part is "it is still subject to laws"
261[2016-03-22 19:50:26] <AnotherLurker> Blackknight, do you have th pastbin feature?
262[2016-03-22 19:50:33] <Blackknight> Not handy.
263[2016-03-22 19:50:41] <ctwelve> So, okay.
264[2016-03-22 19:50:46] <ctwelve> By what /law/ could we try this hitler?
265[2016-03-22 19:50:48] <ctwelve> Seriously.
266[2016-03-22 19:51:02] <o11c> at least following US laws would work
267[2016-03-22 19:51:02] <ctwelve> I want to hear your Originalist construction for this
268[2016-03-22 19:51:07] <ctwelve> how?
269[2016-03-22 19:51:12] <ctwelve> Hitler was not under our jurisdiction
270[2016-03-22 19:51:17] <o11c> he committed murder, that's against our law
271[2016-03-22 19:51:23] <ctwelve> IN THE US
272[2016-03-22 19:51:32] <ctwelve> Bringing him to trial under US law /would be illegal/
273[2016-03-22 19:51:46] <ctwelve> Not only that it would be /unconstitutional/ as well
274[2016-03-22 19:52:08] <ctwelve> I do not think you actually understand law, or how it (does not) apply here
275[2016-03-22 19:52:22] <ctwelve> There is absolutely no law that can be applied to Hitler, except his own.
276[2016-03-22 19:52:39] <ctwelve> Because belligerence /transgresses/ law
277[2016-03-22 19:52:42] <ctwelve> not violates law
278[2016-03-22 19:52:44] <o11c> the laws of the countries of his victims must apply
279[2016-03-22 19:52:46] <ctwelve> it /transgresses it/
280[2016-03-22 19:52:49] <ctwelve> No, they DO NOT.
281[2016-03-22 19:52:54] <AnotherLurker> o11c, which one
282[2016-03-22 19:52:58] <AnotherLurker> you are talking many many countries
283[2016-03-22 19:53:05] <ctwelve> because, firstly, those countries cease to exist when he invaded
284[2016-03-22 19:53:08] <o11c> AnotherLurker: true, so any one is enough to convict
285[2016-03-22 19:53:13] <ctwelve> secondly, who can claim jurisdiction?
286[2016-03-22 19:53:18] <ctwelve> And, here's the bit you do not seem to get
287[2016-03-22 19:53:23] <ctwelve> Who enforces it?
288[2016-03-22 19:53:28] <ctwelve> Now. Take that last element
289[2016-03-22 19:53:31] <ctwelve> and apply it viciously.
290[2016-03-22 19:53:36] <ctwelve> You arrive at "might makes right"
291[2016-03-22 19:53:49] <ctwelve> because, and this is critical, there is absolutely no other way to enact /justice/ on Hitler
292[2016-03-22 19:54:03] <ctwelve> Nuremberg wasn't even a lawful court, and all parties knew it
293[2016-03-22 19:54:20] <ctwelve> It was an agreement, enacted forcefully against the German Transitional Authority by the allies
294[2016-03-22 19:54:31] <o11c> there was precedent though
295[2016-03-22 19:54:41] <ctwelve> that said, essentially, "We're gonna kill these fuckers ,but we will deliberate somewhat publicly."
296[2016-03-22 19:54:48] <o11c> even though the *modern* Geneva conventions came after the war, there were others
297[2016-03-22 19:54:57] <ctwelve> Oh, jesus.
298[2016-03-22 19:55:05] <ctwelve> You think like law is binding and magical, don't you?
299[2016-03-22 19:55:18] <ctwelve> Hitler was /signatory/ to those laws
300[2016-03-22 19:55:19] <ctwelve> didn't stop him
301[2016-03-22 19:55:33] <ctwelve> nor did questions of law when we went like a mower /through the Nazis/
302[2016-03-22 19:55:52] <ctwelve> nor, in fact, when we did the "trials" of the regime
303[2016-03-22 19:55:55] <o11c> ugh ... the state of war *does* exist
304[2016-03-22 19:55:56] <ctwelve> the outcomes there were pre-determined
305[2016-03-22 19:56:04] <ctwelve> and it is lawless
306[2016-03-22 19:56:11] <ctwelve> when we declare war, we are not agreeing to be bound by law
307[2016-03-22 19:56:19] <ctwelve> we are stating, for our own purposes, that we will crush our enemies
308[2016-03-22 19:56:32] <ctwelve> Laws at this scale only matter so much as the consequences matter
309[2016-03-22 19:56:46] <o11c> some of those tried at Nuremberg were acquitted though
310[2016-03-22 19:56:51] <ctwelve> law /in a nation/ is distinct from /promises between nation-states/
311[2016-03-22 19:57:00] <ctwelve> which means 'nothing at all'
312[2016-03-22 19:57:10] <ctwelve> because then Israel /quite lawfully/ assassinated a number of htem
313[2016-03-22 19:57:11] <Blackknight> o11c
314[2016-03-22 19:57:13] * DeShowers is now known as Dejers
315[2016-03-22 19:57:13] <Blackknight> Honest question
316[2016-03-22 19:57:13] <AnotherLurker> yep
317[2016-03-22 19:57:17] <Blackknight> What is your background?
318[2016-03-22 19:57:34] ⇐ Dejers quit (uid66662@Swift-924D26F5.richmond.irccloud.com): Quit: werk
319[2016-03-22 19:57:36] <o11c> American, not sure what else you want
320[2016-03-22 19:57:53] <o11c> my main point is gitmo for this argument though
321[2016-03-22 19:57:56] <Blackknight> Educational background, profession, general location within America
322[2016-03-22 19:58:10] <Blackknight> age
323[2016-03-22 19:58:13] <o11c> college graduate, CS, Washington State
324[2016-03-22 19:58:51] <ctwelve> Honestly, the CS bit I knew.
325[2016-03-22 19:58:58] <o11c> so my coming-of-age was during Afghanistan and Iraq
326[2016-03-22 19:59:19] <o11c> I see the justification for the first, though not the second, but even there
327[2016-03-22 19:59:27] <ctwelve> So was mine. I was there.
328[2016-03-22 19:59:30] <o11c> at Gitmo, we're holding unaccused people without trial
329[2016-03-22 19:59:39] <ctwelve> And for good reason.
330[2016-03-22 19:59:42] <Blackknight> ^
331[2016-03-22 19:59:43] <o11c> that's not how the US is supposed to work
332[2016-03-22 19:59:48] <o11c> there can be no good reason
333[2016-03-22 19:59:49] <Ogre> wait, 'stan and iraq covers a long damn period.
334[2016-03-22 19:59:53] <Blackknight> Yes, yes there can.
335[2016-03-22 19:59:54] <o11c> if they are guilty, accuse them
336[2016-03-22 20:00:01] <ctwelve> Of what? Waging war?
337[2016-03-22 20:00:04] <ctwelve> That isn't a crime.
338[2016-03-22 20:00:06] <o11c> if not, release them
339[2016-03-22 20:00:06] <Blackknight> First, if you really want to get into the Geneva and Hague conventions
340[2016-03-22 20:00:11] <ctwelve> Okay.
341[2016-03-22 20:00:11] <ctwelve> stop
342[2016-03-22 20:00:13] <ctwelve> this is mine.
343[2016-03-22 20:00:17] <ctwelve> Here's the deal o11c.
344[2016-03-22 20:00:18] <Blackknight> Right on!
345[2016-03-22 20:00:27] <ctwelve> They are being held as unlawful combatants, by your own argument.
346[2016-03-22 20:00:32] <ctwelve> the reason is this
347[2016-03-22 20:00:40] <ctwelve> Under the laws of war, they are belligerants
348[2016-03-22 20:00:43] <ctwelve> that's unquestionable.
349[2016-03-22 20:00:47] <ctwelve> Except...of whom?
350[2016-03-22 20:00:59] <ctwelve> We cannot assign their belligerence to a nation
351[2016-03-22 20:01:17] <ctwelve> nor can we call them criminal, because their actions, in a theatre we're engaged in, /are perfectly lawful/
352[2016-03-22 20:01:25] <ctwelve> Now, here's the kicker.
353[2016-03-22 20:01:41] <ctwelve> Legally speaking they /have absolutely no rights whatsoever/ because their homes have forsaken them
354[2016-03-22 20:01:43] <ctwelve> every last one of them
355[2016-03-22 20:01:50] <ctwelve> by rights, we can summarily execute them
356[2016-03-22 20:01:54] <ctwelve> We have chosen not to.
357[2016-03-22 20:01:58] <o11c> they still have human rights
358[2016-03-22 20:01:59] <ctwelve> This is for a number of complex reasons
359[2016-03-22 20:02:16] <o11c> and I see an awful lot of "oops, they never actually did anything bad"
360[2016-03-22 20:02:22] * thePatchyGames is now known as thePatchyBeard
361[2016-03-22 20:02:27] <ctwelve> That's because you're biased, and don't actually know anything about the subject
362[2016-03-22 20:02:31] <ctwelve> and that's by design
363[2016-03-22 20:02:38] <ctwelve> You /can't be told/ what is going on
364[2016-03-22 20:02:47] <Blackknight> ^^^^
365[2016-03-22 20:02:47] <ctwelve> because it's sensitive to things I am forbidden to speak of
366[2016-03-22 20:02:49] <o11c> US laws still prevent US citizens from doing things to *any* human
367[2016-03-22 20:02:58] <o11c> ctwelve: then democracy is dead
368[2016-03-22 20:03:03] <ctwelve> ...no, no they don't.
369[2016-03-22 20:03:06] <Blackknight> Democracy never existed.
370[2016-03-22 20:03:10] <ctwelve> We are not, and never have been a democracy.
371[2016-03-22 20:03:17] <ctwelve> We are a representative republic
372[2016-03-22 20:03:24] <ctwelve> and the distinction is stone-cold critical
373[2016-03-22 20:03:27] <CreatureCoby> india is a democracy
374[2016-03-22 20:03:36] <ctwelve> but, regardless.
375[2016-03-22 20:03:49] <ctwelve> You're looking for logic and perfection in an area where you simply can't compute, o11c
376[2016-03-22 20:03:52] <ctwelve> and honestly?
377[2016-03-22 20:03:59] <ctwelve> It makes me happy you /can't/ understand.
378[2016-03-22 20:04:08] <ctwelve> because that means you've never /seen/ what we're talking about.
379[2016-03-22 20:04:12] <o11c> I'm expecting a statement like "laws don't matter, survival is more important"
380[2016-03-22 20:04:38] <ctwelve> But it worries me, too, because you represent a huge chunk of people that are so disconnected from base reality that they simply blue-screen when it shows up
381[2016-03-22 20:04:42] <ctwelve> this is one of those times
382[2016-03-22 20:04:48] <ctwelve> So, let's consider the options
383[2016-03-22 20:04:51] <ctwelve> 1) we try them
384[2016-03-22 20:05:00] <ctwelve> Okay. Leaving aside all the circus, they all get acquitted
385[2016-03-22 20:05:06] <o11c> it's because we get *told* we're all supposed to follows equal laws
386[2016-03-22 20:05:11] <o11c> but apparently some people are more equal than others
387[2016-03-22 20:05:18] <Blackknight> Just listen.
388[2016-03-22 20:05:26] <Ogre> ok, I'm out. later peeps.
389[2016-03-22 20:05:32] ← Ogre left (~matthew@Swift-5E97E81C.alamobb.net)
390[2016-03-22 20:05:38] <ctwelve> There is absolutely no law at all we can convict any of these guys under
391[2016-03-22 20:05:54] <ctwelve> 2) we execute them. Well, a little late for that now. They had the bad luck of not getting killed in battle.
392[2016-03-22 20:06:08] <ctwelve> 3) we turn them loose. That has already resulted in death, and more terrorism.
393[2016-03-22 20:06:27] <ctwelve> 3a) we /know/ beyond any shadow of a doubt that releasing these guys is dangerous.
394[2016-03-22 20:06:32] <ctwelve> So...what do we do?
395[2016-03-22 20:06:46] <o11c> if you /know/ that, then there is something to convict for
396[2016-03-22 20:06:46] <ctwelve> If we keep them, they're POWs in a war that will never end, but critically, /this is their own fault/
397[2016-03-22 20:06:52] <ctwelve> NO THERE IS NOT
398[2016-03-22 20:07:04] <ctwelve> To commit a crime in the US, you must be in jurisdiction
399[2016-03-22 20:07:04] — Blackknight sighs.
400[2016-03-22 20:07:11] → CWSmith joined (~Chris@Swift-FC802576.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com)
401[2016-03-22 20:07:18] <ctwelve> you cannot be under US jurisdiction in /Afghanistan/
402[2016-03-22 20:07:23] ⇐ CWSmith quit (~Chris@Swift-FC802576.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com): Quit: Leaving
403[2016-03-22 20:07:32] <ctwelve> Or wherever the fuck we picked up the idiot
404[2016-03-22 20:07:58] <ctwelve> I am gonna say: respectfully, and with absolutely no hint of insult...you are /profoundly/ ignorant of law, especially international law.
405[2016-03-22 20:08:29] <ctwelve> I really do not have the time to lay it all out for you and you've already demonstrated /repeatedly/ a total unwillingness to listen, and in fact a massive lack of tact
406[2016-03-22 20:08:38] <ctwelve> by, amongst other things, implicating the views of AnotherLurker 
407[2016-03-22 20:08:41] <ctwelve> I am done trying to help you.
408[2016-03-22 20:08:49] <ctwelve> because I do not think you can be helped.
409[2016-03-22 20:09:46] <o11c> sigh
410[2016-03-22 20:11:41] <o11c> I'm reading more details of Geneva
411[2016-03-22 20:12:04] <o11c> and whether lawful POW or unlawful combatant, there are still rights that apply
412[2016-03-22 20:12:16] <o11c> like "no torture"
413[2016-03-22 20:12:26] <Blackknight> Okay, so we should've shot them in the head and called it good.
414[2016-03-22 20:12:27] <Blackknight> Got it.
415[2016-03-22 20:12:54] <o11c> and, aha! Geneva defers to the "law of the detaining state"
416[2016-03-22 20:13:08] <o11c> so the ctwelve is wrong about them being out of jurisdiction
417[2016-03-22 20:13:16] → Ogre joined (~matthew@Swift-5E97E81C.alamobb.net)
418[2016-03-22 20:13:34] <TheAncientOne|slice_of_pi> he isn't.
419[2016-03-22 20:13:39] <TheAncientOne|slice_of_pi> and you're not getting the distinction.
420[2016-03-22 20:13:39] <Blackknight> ^
421[2016-03-22 20:13:56] <o11c> Every person in enemy hands must be either a prisoner of war and, as such, be covered by the Third Convention; or a civilian covered by the Fourth Convention. Furthermore, "There is no intermediate status; nobody in enemy hands can be outside the law"
422[2016-03-22 20:14:22] <TheAncientOne|slice_of_pi> you've already been told why that isn't the case
423[2016-03-22 20:14:30] <TheAncientOne|slice_of_pi> continuing to argue the point is ...well...pointless
424[2016-03-22 20:15:02] ⇐ CreatureCoby quit (uid76249@Swift-89928430.ealing.irccloud.com): Quit: nap nap time
425[2016-03-22 20:15:32] <Blackknight> The thing you're forgetting?
426[2016-03-22 20:15:42] <o11c> ?
427[2016-03-22 20:15:54] <Blackknight> Geneva only applies between two sovereign state actors.
428[2016-03-22 20:16:01] <Blackknight> And signatories, at that.
429[2016-03-22 20:16:38] <o11c> sovereign perhaps, signatories no.
430[2016-03-22 20:16:42] <Blackknight> By the very fact that their home countries *don't want them*
431[2016-03-22 20:16:49] <TheAncientOne|slice_of_pi> you're looking for shades of black and white in a subject that is inherently grey...a zebra in a horse pasture, if you will.
432[2016-03-22 20:17:02] <Blackknight> ...stealing that, slice of pi
433[2016-03-22 20:17:05] <TheAncientOne|slice_of_pi> geneva doesn't cover those that haven't signed it
434[2016-03-22 20:17:13] <TheAncientOne|slice_of_pi> that's kind of how treaties work.
435[2016-03-22 20:17:29] <TheAncientOne|slice_of_pi> welcome to it
436[2016-03-22 20:17:31] <TheAncientOne|slice_of_pi> :)
437[2016-03-22 20:17:45] <o11c> TheAncientOne|slice_of_pi: the US is still bound to it, for *all* prisoners
438[2016-03-22 20:17:57] <Ogre> except that it's not.
439[2016-03-22 20:18:01] <Blackknight> ^
440[2016-03-22 20:18:08] <o11c> blackknight: Geneva 3 applies even to non-nation-state militants
441[2016-03-22 20:18:10] <TheAncientOne|slice_of_pi> prisoners, yes.
442[2016-03-22 20:18:19] <Ogre> I think that the moon is made of penguins.
443[2016-03-22 20:18:23] <TheAncientOne|slice_of_pi> they aren't prisoners.
444[2016-03-22 20:18:32] ⇐ CrBananoss quit (uid95801@Swift-2859756D.richmond.irccloud.com): Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
445[2016-03-22 20:18:36] <o11c> Geneva 4 is the only one that requires sovereign states
446[2016-03-22 20:18:45] <TheAncientOne|slice_of_pi> there are legal definitions that govern these concepts...your disagreement with that fact is moot.
447[2016-03-22 20:18:53] <o11c> TheAncientOne|slice_of_pi: so they're free to go wherever they wish?
448[2016-03-22 20:18:58] <TheAncientOne|slice_of_pi> No.
449[2016-03-22 20:19:03] <TheAncientOne|slice_of_pi> obviously not.
450[2016-03-22 20:19:06] <Ogre> and then... I'm gonna go squeeze some ice cream out of a cactus.
451[2016-03-22 20:19:17] <Ogre> also, the geneva convention is a pineapple.
452[2016-03-22 20:19:18] <o11c> requote "nobody in enemy hands can be outside the law"
453[2016-03-22 20:19:18] <TheAncientOne|slice_of_pi> but they are not prisoners of war, because no state of war exists.
454[2016-03-22 20:19:27] <o11c> POW is Article 4
455[2016-03-22 20:19:38] <TheAncientOne|slice_of_pi> war cannot exist when there is only one state acting.  QED
456[2016-03-22 20:19:38] <o11c> if that doesn't apply (which I *will* grant), then Article 3 applies
457[2016-03-22 20:19:52] <o11c> if only one state acts, *only* Article 3 applies
458[2016-03-22 20:19:57] <Ogre> a POW is a meat popsicle!
459[2016-03-22 20:20:02] <o11c> unless they choose to also have other articles
460[2016-03-22 20:20:06] <TheAncientOne|slice_of_pi> civilians are by definition noncombatants.
461[2016-03-22 20:20:12] <o11c> wrong
462[2016-03-22 20:20:29] <ctwelve> lolno
463[2016-03-22 20:20:34] <ctwelve> that's not even remotely true.
464[2016-03-22 20:20:50] <TheAncientOne|slice_of_pi> ok, granted it's an oversimplification....my bad.
465[2016-03-22 20:20:53] <o11c> Article 3 *explicitly* covers people like in Gitmo
466[2016-03-22 20:20:55] <Ogre> no, no.. civilians are octopuses, made of ham.
467[2016-03-22 20:21:01] <o11c> whether you call them "civilian" or not
468[2016-03-22 20:21:16] <Ogre> Gitmo is a flavor of soda.
469[2016-03-22 20:21:33] <TheAncientOne|slice_of_pi> my point is....these guys are neither fish nor foul.  they cannot be treated as one, because they aren't that thing, and they can't be the other, because treating them that way would require their release...which isn't a tenable option.
470[2016-03-22 20:21:55] <o11c> TheAncientOne|slice_of_pi: Geneva *explicitly* says they must be one or the other
471[2016-03-22 20:22:10] <o11c> you're saying convenience trumps law
472[2016-03-22 20:22:10] <Blackknight> Yeah, that doesn't really work for a variety of reasons.
473[2016-03-22 20:22:10] <TheAncientOne|slice_of_pi> Geneva is moot.
474[2016-03-22 20:22:47] <ctwelve> okay. Analogy time.
475[2016-03-22 20:23:01] <ctwelve> I release into your yard a Ravenous Bug Bladder Beast
476[2016-03-22 20:23:07] <ctwelve> It wants nothing more than to devour you.
477[2016-03-22 20:23:12] <ctwelve> You go to shoot it
478[2016-03-22 20:23:22] <ctwelve> Except! you miss, and wound it. Now you are in a pickle
479[2016-03-22 20:23:45] <o11c> according to article 3, you have the right to try them for that
480[2016-03-22 20:23:53] <TheAncientOne|slice_of_pi> They cannot be treated under either of those two options, because doing so carries with it additional baggage that isn't appropriate - if they're prisoners of war then there would have to be a sponsoring government with whom negotiations can be held.  Ergo, they are not prisoners of war.  They can't be treated as noncombatants because they patently are not
481[2016-03-22 20:23:53] <TheAncientOne|slice_of_pi> noncombatants.  There isn't anyone to release them to that wants them.
482[2016-03-22 20:23:55] <ctwelve> Okay. never mind.
483[2016-03-22 20:24:15] <TheAncientOne|slice_of_pi> And they cannot be tried because the law *does not apply to them* due to their own choices of affiliation.
484[2016-03-22 20:24:19] <o11c> TheAncientOne|slice_of_pi: article 3 does not apply only to noncombatants, but to *anyone* not covered by Article 4
485[2016-03-22 20:24:35] <ctwelve> your novel legal theory is novel, but wrong.
486[2016-03-22 20:24:38] <ctwelve> and there's no arguing that.
487[2016-03-22 20:24:44] <ctwelve> Like, there's no wiggle room at all here.
488[2016-03-22 20:24:52] <o11c> quoting Geneva is novel?
489[2016-03-22 20:25:00] <ctwelve> Because amongst other things, we're not signature to /all/ of Geneva
490[2016-03-22 20:25:12] <ctwelve> You need to pay attention to the bits we /are/ signatory to
491[2016-03-22 20:25:16] <TheAncientOne|slice_of_pi> no, it's using pancake batter to try to make bacon.
492[2016-03-22 20:25:21] <TheAncientOne|slice_of_pi> not novel
493[2016-03-22 20:25:24] <ctwelve> Because those /and only those/ bits apply
494[2016-03-22 20:25:24] <TheAncientOne|slice_of_pi> but unwise nonetheless
495[2016-03-22 20:25:43] <TheAncientOne|slice_of_pi> and, ultimately, unproductive
496[2016-03-22 20:25:56] <ctwelve> Okay.
497[2016-03-22 20:25:59] <ctwelve> So a lesson in cognition
498[2016-03-22 20:26:04] <ctwelve> Let's take a big step back.
499[2016-03-22 20:26:21] <ctwelve> I have harped on repeatedly that rationality is the least effective mode of cognition in the human mind
500[2016-03-22 20:26:34] <ctwelve> identity and analogy/worldview are much more effective
501[2016-03-22 20:26:35] <AnotherLurker> This is difficult to follow this late at night, gnight y'all
502[2016-03-22 20:26:39] ← AnotherLurker left (~qwebirc@Swift-6930D874.dsl.bell.ca)
503[2016-03-22 20:27:00] <ctwelve> Thing is? You're arguing a point by reasons when none of you agree on any of the framework.
504[2016-03-22 20:27:04] <TheAncientOne|slice_of_pi> ctwelve i need a metaphor for that
505[2016-03-22 20:27:06] <TheAncientOne|slice_of_pi> :)
506[2016-03-22 20:27:07] <ctwelve> You don't see the problem in anything like the same thing
507[2016-03-22 20:27:13] <ctwelve> And that's bad
508[2016-03-22 20:27:16] <o11c> ctwelve: do you have a list of which parts we are and are not signatory to?
509[2016-03-22 20:27:24] <ctwelve> I do not have one on-hand
510[2016-03-22 20:27:34] <Ogre> google should have that.
511[2016-03-22 20:27:39] <ctwelve> but the relevant parts are generally anything before gulf war 1
512[2016-03-22 20:27:39] <TheAncientOne|slice_of_pi> time to go tuck the boy in.  later all.
513[2016-03-22 20:27:43] <o11c> it's failing me
514[2016-03-22 20:27:43] <TheAncientOne|slice_of_pi> *poof*'
515[2016-03-22 20:27:49] — Ogre puts down the jester's scepter for a bit.
516[2016-03-22 20:28:18] <ctwelve> regardless, your worldview is not gonna align, and I can't make it align, and most of all? You /already have a decision/ about this and are simply arguing the point.
517[2016-03-22 20:28:21] <ctwelve> Everyone here does.
518[2016-03-22 20:28:25] <ctwelve> There is no persuasion gonna happen
519[2016-03-22 20:28:31] <thePatchyBeard> [holy shit this has gone to hell]
520[2016-03-22 20:28:48] <ctwelve> you've made up your mind, long ago, and is resonates deeply with your identities. Namely, who you think you are and who you think /we should be/
521[2016-03-22 20:28:50] <o11c> I can't find any evidence of the US *not* signing any part of the Geneva conventions
522[2016-03-22 20:29:13] <o11c> yes
523[2016-03-22 20:29:15] <ctwelve> Because it's a massive, sprawling thing, that's been amended many times, and there are private side deals all arouynd
524[2016-03-22 20:29:27] <ctwelve> And that's a problem because it means this is a pointless argument.
525[2016-03-22 20:29:32] <o11c> I think I will treat all homo sapiens as human, regardless of evil.
526[2016-03-22 20:29:41] <Ogre> https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8&client=ubuntu#q=what+parts+of+the+geneva+convention+are+the+US+not+signatory+to%3F
527[2016-03-22 20:29:42] <ctwelve> I am not going to dissuade you from this path without changing who you are
528[2016-03-22 20:29:43] <Waffle> [ Google ] - www.google.com
529[2016-03-22 20:30:00] <ctwelve> and that's too bad, because reality may eventually do the work for me. I hope it does not.
530[2016-03-22 20:30:37] <o11c> Ogre: not finding anything
531[2016-03-22 20:30:42] <o11c> only "US signed it"
532[2016-03-22 20:31:04] <Ogre> can I point something out to you?
533[2016-03-22 20:31:04] <o11c> all 4 articles and all 3 supplementary protocols (though the last fairly recently)
534[2016-03-22 20:31:28] ⇐ ctwelve quit (sid54852@Swift-CAC17BA5.irccloud.com): Quit: Man, it is way past my bed time
535[2016-03-22 20:31:29] <o11c> go ahead
536[2016-03-22 20:32:09] <thePatchyBeard> I find it kind of ironic that you are arguing about the geneva convention with people who, on a professional, were personally affected by the geneva convention.
537[2016-03-22 20:32:19] <Ogre> you can call a ham samwich a fish, but it won't make it one.
538[2016-03-22 20:32:53] <Ogre> there are at least 3 people in this channel who have intimate knowledge of gitmo, most of which cannot be shared. Do you think we'd spend the whole evening lying to you?
539[2016-03-22 20:33:01] <o11c> thePatchyBeard: my distressing observation is that there are a lot of military people who believe the law doesn't apply to their deeds
540[2016-03-22 20:33:11] <o11c> and that is *scary*
541[2016-03-22 20:33:13] <Ogre> BECAUSE IT DOESN"T
542[2016-03-22 20:33:21] <o11c> if we can't rely on our military, what can we rely on?
543[2016-03-22 20:33:46] <o11c> what we have is a group of armed people who do *not* defer to *any* authority, not even that of the people or their elected representatives
544[2016-03-22 20:33:53] <Ogre> ...
545[2016-03-22 20:33:58] <Ogre> seriously?
546[2016-03-22 20:33:58] <o11c> in any other country we would call that a Military Junta
547[2016-03-22 20:34:06] <o11c> how is it not?
548[2016-03-22 20:34:09] <Ogre> ok, nevermind, you're insane. I'm out.
549[2016-03-22 20:34:11] <Kralizec> Wait, hold on.
550[2016-03-22 20:34:12] <Kralizec> Hold on.
551[2016-03-22 20:34:18] <Kralizec> What?
552[2016-03-22 20:34:31] <thePatchyBeard> o11c: It is my distressing observation that you are on one hand arguing that humans always maintain humanity and on the other saying our military will ignore rules to inflict violence.
553[2016-03-22 20:34:33] <Ogre> now, how the hell do I get ignore to work on this thing?
554[2016-03-22 20:34:52] — Ogre has only put one other person on /ignore in his whole life.
555[2016-03-22 20:34:56] <o11c> thePatchyBeard: humanity doesn't imply goodness or restraint
556[2016-03-22 20:35:12] <Kralizec> o11c you can't possibly be serious.
557[2016-03-22 20:35:17] <thePatchyBeard> and respect gone
558[2016-03-22 20:35:20] <o11c> about what part?
559[2016-03-22 20:35:23] <thePatchyBeard> {poof}
560[2016-03-22 20:35:41] <Kralizec> Well, the military part.
561[2016-03-22 20:35:48] <o11c> the fact that we signed Geneva but aren't follwoing it?
562[2016-03-22 20:35:49] <Ogre> Kralizec,  he's spent the entire night arguing against c12, BK, self, ancient one, and.. well.. everyone. 
563[2016-03-22 20:35:53] <Kralizec> I know.
564[2016-03-22 20:36:01] <Blackknight64> Ogre: /ignore username
565[2016-03-22 20:36:07] <Ogre> awesome, thanks.
566[2016-03-22 20:36:08] <o11c> Kralizec: what *is* the military subject to, then?
567[2016-03-22 20:36:09] <Kralizec> But the idea that the fucking US military is, in fact, a junta, is...
568[2016-03-22 20:36:13] <thePatchyBeard> o11c: You are actively dehumanizing an entire group of people, you need to step away before you go any deeper.
569[2016-03-22 20:36:13] <Kralizec> Well.
570[2016-03-22 20:36:21] <Kralizec> I shall refrain.
571[2016-03-22 20:36:21] <o11c> because that's the scary thing
572[2016-03-22 20:36:32] <o11c> thePatchyBeard: I actively call them all human
573[2016-03-22 20:36:39] <thePatchyBeard> ...
574[2016-03-22 20:36:50] <thePatchyBeard> I tried, you all saw it.
575[2016-03-22 20:37:11] <o11c> I'm just asking: if they aren't subject to law, what are the subject to?
576[2016-03-22 20:37:23] <o11c> oh sure, there are plenty of good people in the military
577[2016-03-22 20:37:28] <Kralizec> Who's law?
578[2016-03-22 20:37:33] <Kralizec> Civilian law?
579[2016-03-22 20:37:34] <o11c> Geneva, perhaps?
580[2016-03-22 20:37:37] <Blackknight64> o11c: bit of background for you.  Ogre and ctwelve are vets.  I'm still currently serving.  My MOS is Military Police.
581[2016-03-22 20:37:45] <Kralizec> Dude.
582[2016-03-22 20:37:53] <o11c> Blackknight64: aware of that
583[2016-03-22 20:37:58] <Blackknight64> So.
584[2016-03-22 20:38:04] <Kralizec> There was just this whole big conversation about how the US did not apply to certian aspects of the Geneva convention.
585[2016-03-22 20:38:11] <Ogre> so some of us object to being called murderers.
586[2016-03-22 20:38:15] <o11c> a conversation without any proof?
587[2016-03-22 20:38:22] <o11c> Ogre: I have called no one a murderer
588[2016-03-22 20:38:27] <o11c> I have been very careful about that
589[2016-03-22 20:38:43] <Ogre> why would you -need- to be careful about that, hmmmm?
590[2016-03-22 20:38:46] <Blackknight64> Equivocation to being a lawless military junta on the other hand...
591[2016-03-22 20:39:01] <o11c> *prove* the difference, please!
592[2016-03-22 20:39:02] <thePatchyBeard> You are just saying that the military is willing to ignore law to enact violence
593[2016-03-22 20:39:06] <o11c> I do want reassurance!
594[2016-03-22 20:39:32] <Kralizec> No, nobody here has to prove it.
595[2016-03-22 20:39:39] — Blackknight64 directs o11c to the US Constitution and 10USC.
596[2016-03-22 20:39:45] <thePatchyBeard> Reassurance will come with a good night's sleep and time to process all this.
597[2016-03-22 20:39:48] <Kralizec> In fact, the Burden of Proof lies upon you, o11c. 
598[2016-03-22 20:40:12] <o11c> Blackknight64: didn't we just agree that the military is not following Geneva, which is a treaty we lawfully entered?
599[2016-03-22 20:40:13] <Kralizec> As you, in fact, are making the assertions that, amongst others, the US Military is a Junta.
600[2016-03-22 20:41:01] <o11c> I did not assert it, I asked, "how is it not?"
601[2016-03-22 20:41:03] <Ogre> what's one of the defining traits of a juntu?
602[2016-03-22 20:41:10] <Ogre> violence against the public.
603[2016-03-22 20:41:12] <Blackknight> o11c: did you miss the part where these guys aren't actually fucking party to Geneva and nobody who is is willing to claim them, and we can't try them because there's not a fucking law on the books that actually applies to them because they're not US citizens, and they have done HEINOUS SHIT BECUASE YOU DON'T FUCKING GO TO GITMO WITHOUT BEING A HEINOUS PIECE OF SHIT
604[2016-03-22 20:41:15] <Ogre> specifically, murder.
605[2016-03-22 20:41:16] <o11c> Ogre: being subject to no other law
606[2016-03-22 20:41:31] <o11c> blackknight: that's what 3 vs 4 is about
607[2016-03-22 20:41:37] <Blackknight> oh for fuck's sake
608[2016-03-22 20:41:38] <Blackknight> I'm out
609[2016-03-22 20:41:40] ← Blackknight left (Blackknigh@Swift-80FC18A3.pool.dsl.bbtel.com)
610[2016-03-22 20:41:55] <o11c> has no one but me actually *looked* at Geneva?
611[2016-03-22 20:42:06] <Ogre> yes, we have.
612[2016-03-22 20:42:18] <o11c> Ogre: Junta does not require violence, only rule.
613[2016-03-22 20:42:22] <Ogre> some of us actually had to know how it works, you know, for our -job-.
614[2016-03-22 20:42:27] <Ogre> also, fucking bullshit.
615[2016-03-22 20:43:13] <o11c> so, do you acknowledge that there are 2 *separate* categories of people covered by Geneva?
616[2016-03-22 20:43:24] ← Blackknight64 left (uid88188@Swift-85DC3201.charlton.irccloud.com)
617[2016-03-22 20:43:37] <Ogre> oh, I don't get nearly that fancy.
618[2016-03-22 20:44:20] <Ogre> humor me for a moment.
619[2016-03-22 20:44:31] <Ogre> you're a CS major, right?
620[2016-03-22 20:44:42] <Ogre> programming, yes?
621[2016-03-22 20:45:00] <Ogre> I'll assume that you are.
622[2016-03-22 20:45:25] <Ogre> now, let's say that I told you with a straight face, that computers ran on latin incantations and happy thoughts.
623[2016-03-22 20:45:36] <thePatchyBeard> I'm going to say this one last time before /leave, o11c, you need to step back and integrate what was said before you lose more than you are willing.  This has gone from friendly debate to actively insulting large portions of people's lives.  I'm going to leave you in this locked room with Ogre now, have fun.
624[2016-03-22 20:45:38] <Ogre> And I continued, in the face of -everything-, to insist this.
625[2016-03-22 20:45:39] ← thePatchyBeard left (uid70105@Swift-DD9B028F.highgate.irccloud.com)
626[2016-03-22 20:46:10] <Ogre> at what point would you throw up your hands, and decide that I was either completely barking insane, or intentionally fucking with y ou?
627[2016-03-22 20:46:25] <Ogre> remember, I've been insisting this for -hours-.
628[2016-03-22 20:46:27] <o11c> Ogre: you're slightly missing my point
629[2016-03-22 20:46:35] <Ogre> no, I'm standing right the fuck on it.
630[2016-03-22 20:46:40] <o11c> my point is: "either the US military is subject to law, or it is not"
631[2016-03-22 20:47:11] <o11c> upholding the constitution means upholding Geneva, unless it conflicts
632[2016-03-22 20:47:17] <Ogre> and  you continue to imply some really nasty shit, while playing rope-a-dope with definitions, while, basically, lying out of  your ass.
633[2016-03-22 20:47:23] <Ogre> I could give two fucks about geneva.
634[2016-03-22 20:47:36] <o11c> so, you could give two fucks about the Constitution
635[2016-03-22 20:47:39] <Ogre> now, about those computers running on latin incantaions.
636[2016-03-22 20:47:40] <o11c> and *that* is what scares me
637[2016-03-22 20:48:04] <Ogre> see, this is why people think you're either insane, or trolling, o11c .
638[2016-03-22 20:48:13] <o11c> why?
639[2016-03-22 20:48:27] <o11c> Did you, or did you not, swear an oath to uphold the Constitution?
640[2016-03-22 20:48:31] <Kralizec> I think it's also worthy to note that the Military has an entirely different court system and laws.
641[2016-03-22 20:48:46] <Ogre> hey, fuck you, you''ve been running this convo for hours, it's my turn.
642[2016-03-22 20:48:47] <o11c> Kralizec: I, and Geneva, acknowledge that.
643[2016-03-22 20:48:55] <Ogre> answer -my- goddamn questions.
644[2016-03-22 20:49:11] <o11c> what question, specifically?
645[2016-03-22 20:49:25] <o11c> the one about latin?
646[2016-03-22 20:49:27] <Ogre> If I came to you, and gibbered complete and utter bullshit about computer science for hours, at what point would you assuming I was either insane, or trolling?
647[2016-03-22 20:49:45] <o11c> well, I would think of Blub at first
648[2016-03-22 20:50:09] <o11c> then I would try hard to see if I could find any pattern
649[2016-03-22 20:50:23] <Ogre> because this is -exactly- what you are doing, talking about gitmo, the military, and the constitution. To quote Inego Montoya, "you keep using those words, I do not think they mean what you think they mean"
650[2016-03-22 20:50:27] <o11c> if there was, I would assume I did not yet have the knowledge to understand it, and so ignore it.
651[2016-03-22 20:50:34] <Ogre> no, now  you're evading.
652[2016-03-22 20:50:40] <o11c> Ogre: I have presented every step of my logic.
653[2016-03-22 20:51:00] <Ogre> Logic is just a way to be wrong with confidence.
654[2016-03-22 20:51:05] <Ogre> and, holy shit, are you wrong.
655[2016-03-22 20:51:08] <o11c> Constitution -> right to sign treaties -> Geneva -> POW or unlawful combatant
656[2016-03-22 20:51:15] <o11c> holy shit
657[2016-03-22 20:51:17] <Ogre> wrong on all levels.
658[2016-03-22 20:51:21] <o11c> you just attacked logic itself
659[2016-03-22 20:51:25] <Ogre> ypu
660[2016-03-22 20:51:34] <o11c> *now* I know there is no point at all in staying here
661[2016-03-22 20:52:08] <o11c> Kralizec: if you have anything to say, feel free to PM
662[2016-03-22 20:52:10] <Ogre> You can be logical, precise, and utterly wrong.
663[2016-03-22 20:52:23] <o11c> Ogre: only if your premises are flawed
664[2016-03-22 20:52:34] <Ogre> DING!
665[2016-03-22 20:52:39] <Ogre> WE HAVE A FUCKING WINNER!
666[2016-03-22 20:52:46] <o11c> which is why I asked the question "which of these premises is valid, and which is flawed?"
667[2016-03-22 20:52:54] <Ogre> and everyone has told you.
668[2016-03-22 20:53:00] <o11c> either the military is subject to the constitution, or it is not
669[2016-03-22 20:53:15] <Ogre> and you rammed your goddamn fingers in your ears and screamed LALALALALALALA ICANTHEARYOU
670[2016-03-22 20:53:24] <o11c> so where is the flaw?
671[2016-03-22 20:53:34] <Ogre> god, where do I start.
672[2016-03-22 20:53:52] <Ogre> ok, clean slate. -everything- you've posted on this subject is effectively wrong.
673[2016-03-22 20:54:04] <Ogre> all of it.
674[2016-03-22 20:54:06] <o11c> okay, clean slate, ignore everyhing *anyone* has posted
675[2016-03-22 20:54:19] <Ogre> well, ok, technically you spelled the names right, but I digress.
676[2016-03-22 20:54:38] <Ogre> now. what is your foundational question?
677[2016-03-22 20:54:59] <o11c> One question: is the US military subject to the Constitution, or not?
678[2016-03-22 20:55:11] <o11c> subject to === under the power of
679[2016-03-22 20:55:12] <Ogre> Yes, absolutely.
680[2016-03-22 20:55:20] <Ogre> next question.
681[2016-03-22 20:55:23] <Ogre> and yes, all of it.
682[2016-03-22 20:55:27] <o11c> then, does Congress have the right to enter treaties?
683[2016-03-22 20:55:38] <Ogre> Yes, but with provisions.
684[2016-03-22 20:55:57] <o11c> okay, rephrase
685[2016-03-22 20:56:36] <o11c> according to the Constitution, does Congress have the right to sign terms (which may include both a common portion and some per-nation addendum)?
686[2016-03-22 20:56:49] <Ogre> yes, but with provisions.
687[2016-03-22 20:57:11] <Ogre> please note, explaining those provisions would be -several- college level courses, which I am -not- qualified to explain.
688[2016-03-22 20:57:13] <o11c> asuming those terms are compatible with the constition, I mean
689[2016-03-22 20:57:23] <o11c> what other provisions can there be?
690[2016-03-22 20:57:26] <Ogre> again, 'yes, but with provisions'
691[2016-03-22 20:57:36] <o11c> so there is our disagreement
692[2016-03-22 20:57:36] <Ogre> "please note, explaining those provisions would be -several- college level courses, which I am -not- qualified to explain."
693[2016-03-22 20:57:48] <o11c> I hold that it is *not* that complicated
694[2016-03-22 20:57:54] <Ogre> so, proceed to your next question.
695[2016-03-22 20:58:08] <o11c> there is no point unless those provisions are explained, sorry
696[2016-03-22 20:58:20] <Ogre> ah, see. this is where the 'troll' part comes in.
697[2016-03-22 20:58:27] <Ogre> or possibly insanity.
698[2016-03-22 20:58:37] <o11c> my next question would be "is the military required to follow Geneva, as signed by the US"?
699[2016-03-22 20:58:58] <o11c> but you're the one blocking progress by failing to explain
700[2016-03-22 20:59:06] <o11c> (whether intentional or from inability)
701[2016-03-22 20:59:20] <Ogre> "the military is required to follow the geneva convention components to which the US is a signatory"
702[2016-03-22 20:59:33] <o11c> okay, so you acknowledge that, then
703[2016-03-22 20:59:37] <Ogre> now, there's something huge here you're missing.
704[2016-03-22 20:59:39] <Ogre> but go on.
705[2016-03-22 21:00:06] <Ogre> for example, unlawful combatants are, by law, supposed to be -executed-.
706[2016-03-22 21:00:09] <o11c> from what I can tell, the US has signed *all* of the Geneva convention, and the only per-nation addendum I can find is the right to use the death penalty
707[2016-03-22 21:00:36] <Ogre> that we -dont- is purely a convenience on our part, because dead terrorists don't tell us anything.
708[2016-03-22 21:00:37] <o11c> it's possible that I'm not finding everything, but if you wish to argue from what I can't find, please find it for me
709[2016-03-22 21:00:54] ⇐ Kralizec quit (uid54746@Swift-B8D5AA11.charlton.irccloud.com): Quit: sleeep
710[2016-03-22 21:00:57] <Ogre> humor me for a moment. You're familiar with the 4th amendment?
711[2016-03-22 21:01:23] <o11c> yes
712[2016-03-22 21:01:52] <Ogre> and how often do various parts of the US government wipe their asses with it?
713[2016-03-22 21:01:56] <o11c> basically the only weasel word in it is "unreasonable"
714[2016-03-22 21:02:05] <o11c> very often, which is somewhat distressing
715[2016-03-22 21:02:11] <Ogre> uh uh.
716[2016-03-22 21:02:13] <Ogre> here's the problem
717[2016-03-22 21:02:26] <Ogre>  you have 'theory' which is all the stuff you've been saying.
718[2016-03-22 21:02:43] <Ogre> then you have over here. 'reality' or 'practice' where, well the real world happens.
719[2016-03-22 21:03:05] <o11c> so, you're saying, you swore an oath to uphold the constitution, but didn't mean it in practice?
720[2016-03-22 21:03:10] <Ogre> There are people who make a life's work out of studying...
721[2016-03-22 21:03:19] <Ogre> motherfucker, you're starting to get on my nerves.
722[2016-03-22 21:03:41] <o11c> I just want some reassurance, but I'm not finding any.
723[2016-03-22 21:03:54] <Ogre> no, you're being intentionally insulting.
724[2016-03-22 21:04:23] <o11c> prove me wrong, please
725[2016-03-22 21:04:29] <Ogre> that, or you've got one of the worst cases of aspergers I've ever seen.
726[2016-03-22 21:04:36] <Ogre> yeah, you're being intentionally insulting.
727[2016-03-22 21:04:39] <o11c> possibly true, but still
728[2016-03-22 21:04:49] <o11c> er, to the aspergers thing
729[2016-03-22 21:04:52] <Ogre> there isn't any.
730[2016-03-22 21:05:09] <Ogre> The NSA is watching  your house.
731[2016-03-22 21:05:15] <o11c> well, that lack of reassurance is what scares me
732[2016-03-22 21:05:16] <Ogre> They've tapped your phones.
733[2016-03-22 21:05:26] <Ogre> they're coming for you, quick, burn your computer.
734[2016-03-22 21:05:27] <o11c> I wanted to live in a civilized world.
735[2016-03-22 21:05:46] <o11c> I wanted to live in a world where, as a community, we could rise above our ancestors.
736[2016-03-22 21:05:53] <o11c> I suppose it was a foolish hope.
737[2016-03-22 21:05:54] <Ogre> stop
738[2016-03-22 21:05:55] <Ogre> no.
739[2016-03-22 21:06:00] <Ogre>  you don't get to preach.
740[2016-03-22 21:06:21] <Ogre> nobody's listening, except for people who are building an active dislike for you.
741[2016-03-22 21:06:36] <Ogre> and the more you run your piehole doing this shit, the less people like you.
742[2016-03-22 21:06:53] <o11c> I suppose it's not smart to piss off people who aren't subject to the law.
743[2016-03-22 21:07:14] <Ogre> small words time.
744[2016-03-22 21:07:16] <o11c> But there have always been ways I'm not smart.
745[2016-03-22 21:07:21] <Ogre> You. Are. Being. An. Asshole.
746[2016-03-22 21:07:25] <Ogre> Stop.
747[2016-03-22 21:07:28] <Ogre> there.
748[2016-03-22 21:07:32] <Ogre> is this clear enough?
749[2016-03-22 21:07:57] <o11c> I suppose I can stop what I'm doing, but I never got anything like what I wanted, only what I feared.
750[2016-03-22 21:08:06] <LordFuzzy> Ok I think it's well past time to shelf this
751[2016-03-22 21:08:11] <Ogre> yeah, I'm out.
752[2016-03-22 21:08:18] <o11c> okay, I will be silent
753[2016-03-22 21:08:45] ← Ogre left (~matthew@Swift-5E97E81C.alamobb.net)
754[2016-03-22 21:10:05] <LordFuzzy> It's not be silent. I honestly could give a fuck about what anyone discusses here. It's when people stop being civil that's the problem
755[2016-03-22 21:11:01] <o11c> sigh, "civil" is one of those words that nobody can define
756[2016-03-22 21:13:12] <LordFuzzy> You are just looking for someone to argue with aren't you?
757[2016-03-22 21:14:27] <o11c> that's not my intent, but ... whatever
758[2016-03-22 21:15:26] <o11c> I always desire that everything be clearly defined, even when it's impossible.
759[2016-03-22 21:15:57] <LordFuzzy> I can understand that. 
760[2016-03-22 21:27:45] <Voychek> bro, the issue, i think, is that you guys don't mesh well in a debate style. you pick eachother's nerves in an unprofessional way. off hand insults at everyone who doesn't share your view? calling someone an asshole outright? HFYpolitics is NOT that place.
761[2016-03-22 21:31:43] <o11c> I was *trying* to avoid insults and merely make statements
762[2016-03-22 21:33:17] <o11c> if I have failed, feel free to PM me with details.