LQE9QhJa

1 
2jerry05/04/2019
3here it is, @camyosh
4the "more productive environment"
5 
6camyosh05/04/2019
7ah, hello!
8 
9tangledThespian05/04/2019
10Heyo, this is easier than all of us huddling around Jerry in mod chat while he tells us stuff. XD
11 
12jerry05/04/2019
13the mouse can only squeak so loud.
14 
15Mercy05/04/2019
16The lot of us sat around the phone while Jerry talks on it and we all watch with :o faces.
17 
18camyosh05/04/2019
19lol, very understandable
20so i would like to ask my question again if thats alright
21to your knowledge, and if you're even allowed to tell me, has anyone on the rpgstuck team ever got into contact with what pumpkin?
22 
23tangledThespian05/04/2019
24Go for it I'm skimming at work.
25 
26Mercy05/04/2019
27Speaking for myself only, dunno about the others, Saturday nights tend to be slow here, I don't know.
28 
29jerry05/04/2019
30no, but they are aware we exist
31 
32camyosh05/04/2019
33interesting, would you be able to go into further detail?
34 
35Mercy05/04/2019
36I'm just hoping they've heard of us somewhen. We've been around a while.
37Well. Actually no, I rescind that. I dunno much about this, I'll let someone else that knows more step in.
38 
39tangledThespian05/04/2019
40Kinda can't, in respect to the person who did have some contact with them. He asked us to keep it very unofficial and not spread it around.
41 
42camyosh05/04/2019
43understandable! Thank you for disclosing even that
44Now for my actual proposition, I believe that it would be best to talk with whoever is "In charge" of rpgstuck directly mostly in respect to their personal decisions on the matter
45but i would still like to discuss this with you all as well
46 
47tangledThespian05/04/2019
48That's why we brought you here. There's seven of us modding the server, and over time we've found we strike a pretty great balance when we work on administrative tasks together. Some of us have more strengths or experience in different niches but.. Team efforts for the win.
49 
50camyosh05/04/2019
51Please don't share this around, as I would rather not have this become a public debacle, but I have been very much considering looking into the possibility of working with what pumpkin to create an official homestuck trpg or have tablestuck officially "somethinged" and advertised through what pumpkin much in the same way they did with the "Aspect" zine.
52endorsed is not the correct term i dont believe
53this isn't something that I have pursued yet, but I hope to in the future
54 
55tangledThespian05/04/2019
56What were you planning to bring them, exactly?
57 
58camyosh05/04/2019
59do you mean what pumpkin or who i wish to make the proposition too?
60 
61tangledThespian05/04/2019
62Either or. I meant what were you thinking of bringing to What Pumpkin, but who works as well.
63
64camyosh05/04/2019
65Well, just from my limited audience of 2k subscribers on youtube, the tablestuck discord has over 2000 members, i've doubled in subscribers, and the patreon has made $500
66I believe that this shows that there is definite interest in the game, and that it could be worth it for what pumpkin to work with me on this.
67and again, this is just my own limited audience.
68 
69tangledThespian05/04/2019
70Well sure this is true, but what of the content? Is the plan to say 'I think a tabletop game is viable?'
71Will you show them tablestuck?
72 
73camyosh05/04/2019
74yes i plan on doing so
75 
76Mercy05/04/2019
77I think I know what you're aiming for with this. Where do we come into play in this?
78Like, what would our role in this be?
79 
80camyosh05/04/2019
81well rpgstuck has been worked on for much longer than tablestuck
82and while i have MANY plans for tablestuck
83i believe it would be beneficial to work together to create the best possible trpg that we can
84there are a lot of things about this that, once again, i believe should be discussed confidentially
85but thats basically my idea
86 
87tangledThespian05/04/2019
88Of course, though I do gotta be honest and say I can't give you an answer straight away. For one, half the mod team's asleep.
89 
90camyosh05/04/2019
91completely understandable
92 
93Mercy05/04/2019
94We'd need details. Which, ah, you wanted to talk to the one in charge. And what they said, half the team's asleep. The one that's in charge ain't awake right now, unfortunately.
95 
96camyosh05/04/2019
97yes of course, i dont expect an "Answer" right now, especially since theres more i feel needs to be discussed before any kind of decision is made
98also we have to remember, theres a VERY good chance what pumpkin wont be interested
99 
100tangledThespian05/04/2019
101Very possible. I would guess the main initial obstacle would be the whole.. Welp, monetization thing. We've had the discussion several times over the years, and the answer always comes to us not being comfortable accepting funds for what is essentially a fan project and a system hack. It feels weird, and we've always been worried about how it'd pan out if/when the powers that be were aware we existed. Part of why we were happy to get even indirect word WP knew of us-there wasn't a cease and desist letter.
102But in the meantime I'd love to talk shop and petty 'oh god who woulda thought building a system would be so hard?' stuff while other mods get in.
103 
104camyosh05/04/2019
105mhm, i understand your concerns about monetization, the only reason I went through with the patreon thing was because the patreon is based on donation to not the product but the creator
106 
107Mercy05/04/2019
108I'll keep myself to not having an opinion yet, then. There needs to be a ton of details worked out, even if there's a good chance WP isn't interested.
109 
110tangledThespian05/04/2019
111What kinda system would it be, you think? Assuming anything presented would need to be built entirely from scratch.
112 
113camyosh05/04/2019
114not necessarily
115 
116Mercy05/04/2019
117Hard to say. There's a lot of variables. The dice affect a lot of things. You got your d100s with the likes of CoC and the 40k rpgs. You got dice poker with Cthulhutech and such. The d6s with like... Weaverdice is the only one that comes to mind but that's half-baked. And then there's the likes of Genisys which uses custom dice.
118 
119camyosh05/04/2019
120i think we can build up from what I have for tablestuck so far, making changes of course
121however my main concern is if we build from rpgstuck, that brings in many legal concerns from wizards and i dont think that would be good for WP
122Cause I intentionally built Tablestuck to be completely disconnected from DnD
123There isn't even a mention of DnD in the guides and all trademarked vocabulary has been changed
124 
125tangledThespian05/04/2019
126Really? But the mechanics of 5e are really evident? Also if you wanted a full divorce, why go d20?
127 
128camyosh05/04/2019
129But from what I remembered when looking into rpgstuck, it is explicitly mentioned that it is based on the DnD 5e system
130I actually planned to go d10, but was convinced otherwise
131 
132Mercy05/05/2019
133Speaking from a mechanical perspective instead of legal, words can be changed. They have been and will continue to be as the necessity arises.
134 
135becks05/05/2019
136The actual copyrighted stuff is mostly in terms yes
137We've slowly built out from the bare bones of 5e
138With our actual personal class system and weapons and such
139 
140camyosh05/05/2019
141yes understandable, but i believe that tablestuck is safer due to it never having any legal ties to dnd, while rpgstuck has an objectively more questionable history with it
142 
143tangledThespian05/05/2019
144It is based from 5e here, but we did so purposefully. We wanted the association to the system.
145 
146camyosh05/05/2019
147Understandable! I don't mean to insult your decision in any way shape or form
148 
149becks05/05/2019
150Tablestuck is pretty clearly based on dnd at the core of it, it's easy to see with any familiarity with ttrpgs
151 
152tangledThespian05/05/2019
1535e is so universally regarded as user/newbie friendly, d&d is well known. Starting from that common base made the jump to us seem appealing.
154 
155Mercy05/05/2019
156The OGL has some protections for these, though in-depth we'd need to consult with a lawyer.
157I only know financial and immigration lawyers, myself, so can't help there.
158 
159becks05/05/2019
160Tablestuck also has some extremely obvious system problems that I wouldn't be interested in solving again
161 
162camyosh05/05/2019
163Yes of course, its still in its first phase of development
164 
165tangledThespian05/05/2019
166Legality isn't much of an issue for us, since rpgstuck was never meant to wade into those territories. If we absolutely had to, I suppose we could change the names of things like you did, but.. I dunno, there's a chance to start fresh.
167 
168becks05/05/2019
169Also, hi, I'm the boss lady
170 
171camyosh05/05/2019
172hello! Very nice to meet you
173 
174tangledThespian05/05/2019
175Merc, we've discussed going for like a d6 base system before, right?
176 
177Mercy05/05/2019
178We've entertained the idea, though implementing it seriously would be difficult. Fourth Gate does the d6 better than we do, but radically different.
179Also yeah, there's plenty of d20 systems. Hold on, lemme find you a list.
180 
181camyosh05/05/2019
182I don't believe having a d20 system is any cause for concern
183I'm pretty sure the pathfinder system is fairly solid evidence that there won't be problems there
184 
185Mercy05/05/2019
186Then yeah, just change the names around. The numbers are what matters.
187 
188tangledThespian05/05/2019
189It's not, but you mentioned you were trying to avoid association. That strikes me as the quickest, easiest way to divorce yourself.
190 
191camyosh05/05/2019
192Either way, the whole point is to build a system that WP wants to use
193 
194tangledThespian05/05/2019
195What did you have in mind with d10s, if you don't mind my curiosity?
196 
197camyosh05/05/2019
198Or at least the beginnings of one
199I'm sure they want a hand in every step of development
200 
201becks05/05/2019
202Im pretty sure the day what pumpkin decides they want a ttrpg they'll hire a team to make it themselves from scratch
203 
204Mercy05/05/2019
205If they did, they'd need someone that knows how tabletops work. Can't even begin to count the number of people who went into things thinking it'd work like a video game.
206 
207becks05/05/2019
208They know about us and likely all the other sizable versions of homestuck games
209 
210tangledThespian05/05/2019
211Yeah, I imagine if you want to play ball convincing them to cut you in, you would need to show them a product to sell that they won't need to build.
212 
213Mercy05/05/2019
214In which case, they'd either go for professionals, and I mean like, "worked on 3.5e, 4e, and 5e dnd" professional, or they'd do what she said and recruit from in-house, so to speak.
215The former means we're all shut out, and all that comes with it, the latter... uh, I hope they don't like, take like, people from here, from Skrub, from that Chunyuu's conversion, the Gamma World one, etc, and mash everyone together. That'd be a nightmare.
216 
217tangledThespian05/05/2019
218Or beautiful chaos.
219 
220becks05/05/2019
221There would be blood lol
222 
223Mercy05/05/2019
224But in any case, this is presupposing WP knows what they want, specifically.
225....uh, what were we on before this point?
226 
227tangledThespian05/05/2019
228Becks I'm hosting a tournament and pitting you against Saint blood is suitable as a currency of chaos in my book.
229
230becks05/05/2019
231:dagger:
232 
233tangledThespian05/05/2019
234I think talking about a system base die?
235 
236Mercy05/05/2019
237No, beyond that. Those are mechanical details. But ones to be worked out if we have the go-ahead for it, not before. Or well no, not beyond that, before that, rather.
238 
239tangledThespian05/05/2019
240Word soup, Merc dear.
241 
242Mercy05/05/2019
243Becks is the boss lady in charge. She does the administration. I'm concerned with the actual mechanical meat of the thing. #devlife
244 
245tangledThespian05/05/2019
246#devs4life
247 
248camyosh05/05/2019
249Once again, I think it would be beneficial to work together on this to make the best possible product for people to enjoy
250 
251tangledThespian05/05/2019
252Vamp wails in the background.
253 
254camyosh05/05/2019
255I really don't care all that much what name gets slapped onto the title
256 
257Mercy05/05/2019
258Okay. So let's talk meat. What would you propose on the way of this workign together?
259 
260camyosh05/05/2019
261This entire tangent came from the question of whether or not we need to build it ENTIRELY from scratch
262which we've established that we don't NEED to do
263 
264Mercy05/05/2019
265Alright then, yes, let's move past that for now, hypotheticals will remain such until it's time to do the do. Becks, you still here? You're the boss lady, he wanted to talk with you, I think?
266 
267camyosh05/05/2019
268But I have many plans for tablestuck that isn't currently in the manuals, as they are just the result of me turning a system i made a few years ago into an actual written document in the short time i had before 4/13 so its of course a bit rushed and incomplete
269 
270becks05/05/2019
271Yes im still here
272 
273tangledThespian05/05/2019
274Oh, I was just enjoying talking about base systems..
275 
276camyosh05/05/2019
277but I believe that your experience and recognition of possible pitfalls as well as some of the creative mechanics that are in rpgstuck could very much benefit our "ultimate game"
278cause like what you guys did with making use of the player houses
279that shits baller af
280 
281becks05/05/2019
282The campaigns?
283Oh wait
284I was reading bane plane backlog
285 
286Mercy05/05/2019
287So how would this work, specifically? I'll speak for myself and not the entire team on this particular point, generalities have to be fleshed out at some point. They gotta get done.
288 
289camyosh05/05/2019
290Well do you have any specific questions about it you'd like to ask?
291 
292Mercy05/05/2019
293Hypothetical, let's say we agree. Half the team still asleep, or they would've chimed in by now. What's the first thing done on either end? Who gets talking to, what gets changed, where does development head or start and along what lines, what happens to both servers, and so on and so forth.
294 
295camyosh05/05/2019
296Well one thing that I think is important to address
297I'm not entirely sure how you guys work on rpgstuck, but I think you have a fairly large team right?
298 
299becks05/05/2019
300We have about 6 people that regularly contribute
301 
302camyosh05/05/2019
303The more people that are working on it means the less likely WP is going to want to care about it
304 
305Mercy05/05/2019
306I'd say less. It varies.
307 
308camyosh05/05/2019
309we'll need to limit the development team
310 
311Mercy05/05/2019
312Minimum, I could see it going with only three people. But that's if we need to, cause hell if we want that.
313 
314becks05/05/2019
315The extras reign in the main workers
316Makes it easier to bounce ideas and bring im their own useful perspectives
317Our team could be pared down a little but not by much to maintain the same level of quality
318 
319camyosh05/05/2019
320the larger the team, the more ways WP would have to split the revenue
321personally I would also like a large team
322but thats something we gotta put past them
323 
324becks05/05/2019
325This isn't exactly a large team, honestly
326 
327Mercy05/05/2019
328That'd be dubious. If only cause the system currently has contributions from all over. I could see why they'd want a smaller team, but that'd come with a whole new set of issues. But anyway, enough on that topic. Let's get to the elephant in the room.
329You have your own visions for tablestuck. We have our own visions for rpgstuck. How're we gonna reconcile?
330 
331camyosh05/05/2019
332Well I assume that our main goal is to replicate SBURB as accurately as possible, while keeping it fun
333And if that's a shared goal we have, we can make decisions based on that
334
335Mercy05/05/2019
336That's the goal of all systems. But there are different philosophies involved in getting there. Let's... let's start from a small step. What tabletops've you played personally? Or DMed.
337Easier to discern what we're thinking if we know what we've played.
338 
339camyosh05/05/2019
340However I disagree that we should go by vote, as we have more people coming from Rpgstuck than from Tablestuck, any Rpgstuck decision would most likely win out in any given vote
341 
342becks05/05/2019
343Ok we weren't on that subject yet
344 
345camyosh05/05/2019
346I've personally played a lot of DnD, and a little bit of pathfinder
347 
348Mercy05/05/2019
349Which is why I chose not to go that route. Start small. I'll admit, I'm not as into the depths of the homestuck fandom that I know all the big names of this place. Perused some of your videos. Ah, that. Okay then. Right, played some DnD, a bit of Call of Cthulhu, and a bit of the 40k rpgs. And Weaverdice, but good god. You think rpgstuck 0e or current tablestuck is incomplete, that system's literally the shell of a system only held by the fact that it's based on a good setting.
350Alright then, so we have leanings towards DnD. The d20s, which is fair enough, a lot of people play DnD, it'd be easiest for people to pick up.
351Did you like DnD or PF better?
352 
353camyosh05/05/2019
354I prefer DnD
355 
356Mercy05/05/2019
357Or no, lemme be more specific. Which did you think had the better design?
358 
359camyosh05/05/2019
360Personally I think 5e is best in terms of design
361 
362Mercy05/05/2019
363....lemme refine again. Which has the design that you think would be more fun/accessible? ...which is prolly still gonna be DnD. If anyone says Pathfinder is easy to get into I'm going to roast them like it's 1600s London.
364 
365camyosh05/05/2019
366yeah still 5e
367 
368Mercy05/05/2019
369Okay. 5e it is. Renamed advantage to favour, should've seen that coming. What aspects do you think tablestuck needs fleshing out? You said it's incomplete. Don't need to go into any details yet, what parts are you lookign to flesh out?
370 
371camyosh05/05/2019
372I definitely want to explore more unique systems, cause like you mentioned with the advantage/favour, some of it is just a reskin of 5e
373I also still need to finish the DM's guide and fill it with as much information on how to play SBURB as possible
374I'm currently working on a list of powers for all 144 classpects, and figuring out how to rebalance and revamp the MB system to accommodate
375I'm planning on fleshing out the alchemy tier and prototype tier systems further
376I'm going to write "Doc scratch's guide for everything" which will include rules for Troll races, lord/muse sessions, and more miscellaneous stuff
377 
378Mercy05/05/2019
379Alright, well, let's delve into that, because ultimately, if nothing else works out, at least you'll have gotten a chance to elucidate what you want and will have a chance to vocalize it and think on it. 
380
381These unique systems. To what end would they be for? What do you want the system to accomplish? The classpects. The alchemy tiers. The prototypings. Alright, that's a start. Which do you think would take center stage? Like, see it from a player's perspective. Which will they go for first? Do you want them to use the classpects the most, or skills, or weapons. Alchemy. Etc.
382 
383camyosh05/05/2019
384I'm actually programming a discord bot to track grist, hp, and the players sylladex
385 
386Mercy05/05/2019
387Hmm. What is it, from experience, players are... some of them couldn't pour water out of a boot if the instructions were on the heel. And that's before the myriad of technical problems that might result from any of a hundred angles.
388Wait, you mean like for the DM to know what to give and the like? That would be more doable.
389 
390camyosh05/05/2019
391The player will most immediately need to confront the prototyping system
392 
393becks05/05/2019
394So before they go through character creation?
395 
396camyosh05/05/2019
397Of the things merc listed i mean
398and Yes its made to help the DM keep track of things but of course the players will be able to make use of it as well so they can know what items they have available on a whim
399 
400Mercy05/05/2019
401Prototypings (and alchemy, in experience they tend to go hand in hand) tends to be difficult to systemise fully. You have to be able to do some Overseer Project level amounts of categorization for that, that might be too unwieldy based on what you're thinking.
402Err, depending on, that is.
403 
404camyosh05/05/2019
405Well I've got a system made to quantify prototyping bonuses
406Basically depending on how powerful the DM deems a prototyping would be, they would give it a tier rating
407Then when making encounters, the DM would takpick about 4 of the prototypings (if there is more than 4) and then add the tier ratings together to get a value that they could then match up to the corresponding stat block on the underling's stat table
408 
409Mercy05/05/2019
410Ah. Yeah, reading through that part of your docs now, trying to get a feel for it.
411 
412camyosh05/05/2019
413It's a bit incomplete still, I want to finish writing it out but I honestly haven't gotten the time with my job and all this
414I also am going to need to make the entire book a pdf file to be able to fit the stat tables for each underling
415cause Google doc tables just dont cut it
416 
417Mercy05/05/2019
418Ah. Yeah, can feel that. Got school and a job myself too. What is it, this may be too punishing to the player that— wait no, more pertinent topic. You'll wanna get a feel for what people actually do in a given session. What a dev intends and what the player does are wildly different more often than not.
419Also, would suggest google sheets. Excel's a powerful tool for numbers-based stuff.
420 
421camyosh05/05/2019
422Yes I've actually considered just writing an entire "Monster manual" in google sheets
423 
424Mercy05/05/2019
425So basically, DM keeps track of PR, then whenever someone fights something the DM picks the monster they want, then chooses the statline (out of many) that has the closest PR?
426 
427camyosh05/05/2019
428Also @becks I think that the character sheet I designed is user friendly enough that character creation is pretty usable for now as is, and theres more things that need to take priority first
429sorry for taking so long to respond on that
430 
431Mercy05/05/2019
432Also, not a consideration. You'll need a monster manual. The players have all these abilities and powers and shenanigan-causing hoopla. They need something to use it against. And this is just combat-wise, to speak nothing of the myriad ways to do non-combat.
433 
434camyosh05/05/2019
435so what im imagining, is that each underling page will include a stat table
436 
437Mercy05/05/2019
438It's what you'd want the powers to be balanced around, after all. Or against each other, but... no, realistically both ways.
439 
440camyosh05/05/2019
441each line of the stat table will be assigned a number representing the PR
442from like -10 to +20
443as people could potentially prototype things that give a negative bonus to the underlings
444and each line would have what the stats would be for an underling of that PR
445so the DM would just pick what prototypes a given imp would have
446add the pr together
447lets say the prototypes are +1, +1, -1, +3
448thats a total pr of 4
449so he would use the stats on the 4th line of the stat table
450
451Mercy05/05/2019
452This might be disadvantageous to players that enter later than earlier. What would help them keep pace with this?
453 
454camyosh05/05/2019
455This is a disadvantage that exists in canon sburb as far as im aware, except we don't really see any troll underlings with more than 4 prototypes
456So I believe the best balancing, is that while it gets more difficult for each new player, the difficulty doesn't really increase past the 4th player to enter
457Cause then while its more difficult, its still very much winnable
458 
459Mercy05/05/2019
460There's the Black King to consider. Dude definitely showed the results of all twelve. But anyway, I can't comment on this too deeply unless I see the statlines myself. I'm not versed on how tablestuck's numerical progression goes.
461Anyway, right, the monster manual. How intricate do you expect it to be?
462 
463camyosh05/05/2019
464Yes im going to need to balance the black king a lot, but it should be a fight that requires all or most of the players to win
465Well I believe a short description of each underling, the aforementioned scaling stat table, as well as some fun art should suffice
466then with the denizens it would get much more detailed
467 
468tangledThespian05/05/2019
469Well sure, but we all already know that straight transcribing canon sburb cannot happen, and some stylistic choices must be made for the sake of player enjoyment. You do this with your classpect assignments, we do it in other ways like removing scaling starting grist.
470Also apologizes, been held up at work, been following quietly.
471 
472Mercy05/05/2019
473Looking at the monsters. What do they do, exactly? Besides attack. I ask how intricate you envision things because things like range, resources, damage types, etc, can come into play.
474 
475tangledThespian05/05/2019
476Doncha hate coworkers that gripe for hours about the work ethic of others, then leaving you with their incomplete work?
477 
478camyosh05/05/2019
479Well I'm actually planning on simplifying the battle mechanics to be more close to how we see strife happen in Homestuck, so no matter what all participating characters are in range of eachother and ranged weapons would get their own set of advantages and disadvantages
480Honestly I believe tablestuck strife mechanics are the biggest difference between tablestuck and dnd
481An underling in combat would have access to the same kinds of actions that a player has to make it more interesting and dynamic
482and outside of combat the DM can feel free to roleplay the underlings and their various shenanigans
483 
484tangledThespian05/05/2019
485Huh. How do you intend to compensate for the imbalances that range provides to a combat?
486 
487Mercy05/05/2019
488Hmm. This might be the first roadblock then. DnD's traditionally been a combat simulator. Narrowing it down to just "roll dice and hit" foregoes a lot of nuance that can appear in a roleplay. At the very least you'd need to account for how to simplify al those situations, and that's before I assume classpects and what they offer come into play. Strifes may not be as simplified as you prefer with those.
489 
490tangledThespian05/05/2019
491Maybe I'm not understanding what you mean by more dynamic? Sorry.
492 
493camyosh05/05/2019
494In tablestuck strife a ranged weapon has the added bonus of having a high consistent damage rather than a damage that can fluxuate with melee weapons, but a lower chance to actually land the hit
495Cause I designed the strife to be as you would see strife in an S page in homestuck
496 
497tangledThespian05/05/2019
498Well yes, but that's not the only difference between a ranged or melee combatant, isn't it?
499 
500camyosh05/05/2019
501I'm considering having the ranged combatant also be harder to hit as well, but then with the added bonus of a high static damage it then becomes objectively better than any other type of weapon
502The issue with just taking DND range I find is that the combatant is then basically completely untouchable as long as they move away after shooting
503and considering that underlings very rarely have weapons, it begs the question
504why use anything other than a gun>
505 
506becks05/05/2019
507There are underlings with ranged attacks, that's within your power to give then
508 
509Mercy05/05/2019
510Have you taken a look at our monster manual here? Some of the answers may be in there. Also, the old kiting method is what is expected. That'll be a hell of a dissonance to get over, when ranged attack underlings exist.
511Granted, I've already rewritten the MM.... five times by now? Always more nuance to be discovered, and more ways of being a threat.
512 
513camyosh05/05/2019
514Are there ranged underlings? I don't remember any of them having any ranged abilities
515Which ones?
516and no I haven't gotten a chance to read through it yet unfortunately
517 
518Mercy05/05/2019
519Whichever underlings we said have them. One of the first inconsistencies I noticed when I first got my hands on the MM, way too many melee monsters. Not enough ranged. Ran into the problem you described, shoot and scoot took care of the vast majority of them.
520 
521becks05/05/2019
522Canon, sburb isn't a fun game
523 
524camyosh05/05/2019
525Yeah, thats why with my system I came to the conclusion to just follow what happens in actual homestuck and keep everyone in range of eachother unless they abscond, and then give ranged weapons different sets of advantages and disadvantages
526 
527Mercy05/05/2019
528So what does a combat even look like in this system? The player attacks, maybe uses a classpect ability, and the monsters just attack back? Getting..... ah, bit of a generalization, but JRPG vibes from this.
529 
530becks05/05/2019
531That's cuz homestuck combats are based on stuff like final fantasy
532 
533camyosh05/05/2019
534Yes I actually tried to make it similar to that
535 
536becks05/05/2019
537This really doesn't seem like itd translate well
538 
539camyosh05/05/2019
540In strife a combatant has 4 kinds of actions they can take
541 
542Mercy05/05/2019
543Oh boy. Lights flickered. Thunderstorm outside. If I disconnect, assume mother nature took me back.
544 
545camyosh05/05/2019
546Assail, aggrieve, abjure, abscond\
547 
548becks05/05/2019
549The grind for grist would get exceptionally tedious
550 
551camyosh05/05/2019
552An Assail is a full out attack, and on a hit the damage output would be a weapon's SD + BD
553 
554Mercy05/05/2019
555To be fair, it's a bit tedious here too. Planning to revamp that next edition myself.
556 
557becks05/05/2019
558Because the combat in jrpgs is well known for being tedious between bosses
559 
560tangledThespian05/05/2019
561Sure, but isn't the main appeal of tabletop gaming that you aren't constrained to what a program can do? Four buttons for battle sounds like a videogame, not a dice game.
562 
563camyosh05/05/2019
564An Aggrieve is an Attack action with a sub action, the downside to getting the extra sub action being that damage dealt is only SD and not BD
565An Abjure is a Defensive action with a sub action, in which the character gets to make some kind of contest roll against the opponents attack roll rather than just their AC
566 
567Mercy05/05/2019
568Loosely translated to us, it works out something like attack + Drive Through, attack + minor action, Dodge/Brace + minor action, and an Abscond + minor action, the last of which we don't have an equivalent for.
569 
570camyosh05/05/2019
571While its much more mechanical, theres not really an in combat action i can think of in DnD that couldn't be catagorized into one of these 4 action types
572 
573Mercy05/05/2019
574How does Stealth work here?
575 
576camyosh05/05/2019
577For combat that would be the Ambush system, which is fairly similar to dnd's surprise system
578 
579Mercy05/05/2019
580And reentering it? Not seeing an equivalent for Hide. Or Help, but Help is easy to throw in.
581 
582camyosh05/05/2019
583Outside of combat that would be just an agility contest against their intellect
584I think that a hide would be an abscond unless they use some kind of void power
585
586Mercy05/05/2019
587There's a lot of abstraction happening here, and not all of it's being reasonably covered by how strifes work in HS canon vs how they'd work on a tabletop. Extreme range, hit and run, grappling, not to mention the dearth of... what is it, what does a given monster bring to the table besides a different stat distribution from another monster?
588 
589tangledThespian05/05/2019
590How would battlefield control tactics work?
591I'm not biased by my favorite kinds of tabletop builds at all, nope.
592 
593Mercy05/05/2019
594My immediate concern isn't even that, but... where is the room for, how do I word it. I can see why it'd be dynamic on the player's end. Where is the dynamism on the other end?
595 
596camyosh05/05/2019
597Well the difference in each underling id think comes from what prototypings the dm assigns to each one
598cause different things can change the game besides stat bonuses
599like if you prototype the imp with a canon for whatever reason, the imp would work on ranged rules rather than melee rules
600but not every imp in the battle will have the same prototypings
601 
602Mercy05/05/2019
603What would be the end result of these different prototypings? How far do they go? As is, it's sounding like all a given monster does despite prototypings is roll to hit, then damage if hit.
604 
605camyosh05/05/2019
606and im not entirely sure what you mean by battlefield control tactics?
607well depending on the prototypes, an imp could get advantage on blocks, be harder to hit, be easier to hit, or even get an extra attack
608 
609becks05/05/2019
610Drawing agro, AOE, forceful movement, terrain manipulation etc etc right @tangledThespian ?
611 
612Mercy05/05/2019
613And what changes because of that? What tactics would the player have at their disposal to counter this that their current method wouldn't? How does this change how the player needs to go about their actions?
614 
615camyosh05/05/2019
616i suppose in dangerous terrain that could still be pretty useful
617like on daves planet he could be able to knock imps off the gears and shit
618except the downside to that is he doesnt get the grist
619@Mercy Well lets say if the imp were to get an extra attack, id go about this by aggrieving rather than assailing to guard as a sub-action to help make it less likely that i would get hit by both attacks
620but there plenty of different ways that a player could adapt their strategy to work around this obstacle
621 
622Mercy05/05/2019
623The numbers may disagree based on how damage scales (if attacking recklessly despite whatever's thrown at you is mathematically the best option, then something's gone wrong. This isn't even dependent on dev goals, it's numbers-based), but well yeah, what else? I think this may depend on the full range of sub-actions available to the player.
624 
625tangledThespian05/05/2019
626Becks you know me so well bb.
627 
628becks05/05/2019
629U no it
630 
631camyosh05/05/2019
632@Mercy heres what is listed for sub actions in the manual
633This SUB ACTION would typically be to GUARD, which makes any STRIKING ACTION CHECK made against you UNFAVOURABLE until the next turn. If a STRIKE is already FAVOURABLE, then GUARDING just makes it a regular STRIKE.
634
635Other SUB ACTIONS could include: CAPTCHALOGUING an ARTIFACT, RETRIEVING an ARTIFACT, EQUIPPING a different WEAPON, MOVING a short distance, and taking any regular action at the DM’s discretion (if this requires the character to make an ACTION CHECK, it is UNFAVOURABLE). Other SUB ACTIONS may be available depending on a character’s CLASSPECT. A character decides if they want to take their ATTACK or SUB ACTION first.
636 
637Mercy05/05/2019
638The moving a short distance may be an issue if range doesn't matter quite so much. Other than that, this is... still fairly bare bones. It's geared towards attacking as the only goal. Which, if you're going this way, should inform how you design classpects.
639When you design their abilities, everything should be weighed with "why would they use X instead of just another attack?"
640 
641camyosh05/05/2019
642Very true, however not every classpect ability would necessarily be geared towards combat
643 
644Mercy05/05/2019
645Then the combat-oriented ones, at least. Also, just guarding and blocking. A lot's riding on the classpect movesets to spice up combat, cause otherwise this is just back and forth rolling to hit, for the most part. The actions alone, you can either attack fully, attack while guarding, or attack while switching to another weapon or something.
646 
647becks05/05/2019
648Well it's after 1 here so I'm off to bed, I'll catch up on this tomorrow
649 
650camyosh05/05/2019
651Yeah I think ill also head to bed
652But thank you all so much for the constructive criticism!!!
653 
654Mercy05/05/2019
655Ah. Well, I'll be here for a bit longer, still have studies to attend to. What is it, the rest of the team will react as they get up and log on, they'll input their feedback as they see it. I suspect we'll be in here for the time being.
656 
657camyosh05/05/2019
658I really appreciate it and will take it into consideration when working on the game
659 
660Mercy05/05/2019
661Right. We'll see you around.
662 
663tangledThespian05/05/2019
664I'm around a bit as well. Night owling being what it is, I'm just entering the calmer portion of my day. I'll be around to answer questions as I can.
665 
666Matilda~05/05/2019
667https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Game_License
668Open Game License
669The Open Game License (OGL) is a public copyright license that may be used by tabletop role-playing game developers to grant permission to modify, copy, and redistribute some of the content designed for their games, notably game mechanics. However, they must share-alike copie...
670Copying DnD is zero issue
671At least from a legal perspective
672And you can't copyright game mechanics
673Hi, I'm Matilda
674I wrote the original 2e
675Since then, I've written a ton of other rpgs
676
677Matilda~05/07/2019
678@camyosh
679 
680camyosh05/07/2019
681Oh! Hello, nice to meet you
682 
683Matilda~05/07/2019
684wb
685 
686camyosh05/07/2019
687That's good to know, but I definitely think we should take something like this past a lawyer of some kind first just in case
688 
689Matilda~05/07/2019
690this stuff has been around for 20 years
691we are in the clear lol
692 
693camyosh05/07/2019
694True but theres more than just copying mechanics, as an example I know that wizards has a trademark on most of its terminology, thus spawning the entire game master/dungeon master stuff you see with most games
695 
696Mercy05/07/2019
697Theoretically, if the intent is to take this to WP at some point, we could leave the legal side of things to them, no?
698 
699camyosh05/07/2019
700Yes that's what I'd personally think would be besty
701 
702Matilda~05/07/2019
703yeah, wizards get angry when people use DM
704I keep telling these nerds that, but they have yet to change lol
705 
706camyosh05/07/2019
707Thats why I use "Douche Magician" rather than "Dungeon Master" lol
708 
709Matilda~05/07/2019
710game master works just fine
711 
712camyosh05/07/2019
713Of course thats why its so widely used
714I just think Douche Magician is funny
715and feels in theme with a homestuck game
716 
717Mercy05/07/2019
718Might be issues marketing-wise, but words are words, that can be rewritten. In any case. Hmm. Lots of backlog on this channel now.
719 
720camyosh05/07/2019
721Either way we don't need to worry about which system we decide to build off of if any at all rn
722 
723Mercy05/07/2019
724Okay right, it was working together. Let's talk people. Who do you got working with you right now?
725 
726camyosh05/07/2019
727Well the entire game was written by me alone
728Although I did get advice from a few personal friends as well as my girlfriend
729But the system itself was entirely handcrafted by me over the last few years, so we shouldn't have any issue with people claiming that they aren't being credited and want a portion of any profits on my end
730 
731becks05/07/2019
732no one here would  be in the least concerned about profits
733we're interested in making a good game, not turning a profit
734 
735camyosh05/07/2019
736Oh of course! I didn't mean to imply otherwise
737 
738Mercy05/07/2019
739Not thinking profits, thinking brain meat. We need people who're competent. It's not even about not turning a profit, we can't do anything if we don't have people we can both work with and can hold up their own.
740 
741camyosh05/07/2019
742I'm just saying that there won't be any issues on my end if what pumpkin picks this up
743 
744Mercy05/07/2019
745I suppose time is also a factor. I don't exactly know what sort of employment expectations WP has.
746 
747camyosh05/07/2019
748Of course and I have some people in mind that would be very good on that team
749I'll make sure if I bring anyone in on this that they'll be competent with their speed beforehand
750 
751Mercy05/07/2019
752That may be another issue to be worked over. I mentioned before if WP brought one or two devs from each and every homebrew HS thing, it'd be a massacre. Frankly speaking, you barely know us, we barely know you, friction can be a thing since I don't expect either side knows the other enough to gauge if we can work together.
753 
754becks05/07/2019
755yeah before we got to down to a team that actually works for us, there was a lot of in fighting and catty behavior for a while
756 
757Matilda~05/07/2019
758lots of it
759 
760camyosh05/07/2019
761Of course I took that into account, and I highly suggest we don't take from any more places than we already have
762 
763becks05/07/2019
764it delayed production significantly, made things a toxic work environment, and made the game just generally a bad game
765there was a period of time i spent every day crying over this damn game
766 
767Mercy05/07/2019
768We wouldn't be bringing anyone new. But we do have a fair few people. That, and a lot of stuff gets leaked to the DM chat anyhow.
769 
770Papa Saint's Chop Shop05/07/2019
771Catty behaviour is an understatement.
772 
773camyosh05/07/2019
774I do however believe that you guys would be very beneficial to a project like this, and I thought it was only right to come to you and at least try to include you in on this if not for anything but my own personal respect for what you've done with RPGstuck
775 
776Mercy05/07/2019
777As you can tell, they've.... had bad experiences with it.
778 
779camyosh05/07/2019
780Understandable, I'd recommend that we pick people that we include on this project very sparingly and with thought
781I'm completely willing to not bring anyone else in on my end if I need be
782I'd prefer to have at least my girlfriend involved personally but if that cant happen i understand
783 
784Mercy05/07/2019
785Experience tells that we need someone if only to tell if something actually works in practice. Disconnect between RAW and RAI never shrunk from the AD&D days. In any case, hmm. Right, how to word this. And also considering bringing in other devs in here that aren't mods, for the purpose of... fitting all the needs, so to speak. You made the entirety of the Tablestuck docs. What would you say you excel at, specifically? And I'll let the other dev/mods here chime in as they're available too.
786 
787camyosh05/07/2019
788Hmmm well personally I think the primary aspect I excel at would be is in general setting up the mechanics of the system and organizing production. Before I even started writing the tablestuck handbook I basically the entire engine worked out in my head and I had planned out how many different guidebooks I needed and exactly what would be in each guidebook in what order, and what order I would work on everything as well as planning out the future editions of the games and what updates I would make for each edition in the future.
789I think that having all this in mind beforehand really helped me make decisions about what to change and include and I ran into very little problems while making what I have so far
790 
791Mercy05/07/2019
792None of the non-mod devs have responded so far, and also I should ask, know you asked to keep it to just the mods, are you okay with them also coming in? Since they're the devs, so they'd be the ones that'd actually be working on this.
793 
794Matilda~05/07/2019
795have you written any other system beyond tablestuck? out of curiosity
796 
797camyosh05/07/2019
798I've written out another system but I plan to keep it private until much later down my career when I can ensure its success
799
800Matilda~05/07/2019
801so two systems
802 
803camyosh05/07/2019
804And @Mercy I'm not sure personally as I don't want to have anyone disappointed if any decision is made to not include them
805yes two systems
806 
807Matilda~05/07/2019
808cool
809that's more than most people write
810 
811Mercy05/07/2019
812We've pared down the dev team a lot. If they're disappointed, that's their problem. Also cause currently we only have one guy that's on to actually talk anyway.
813 
814camyosh05/07/2019
815Alright well i mean i guess that would be ok
816 
817Mercy05/07/2019
818I'm checking to see if they're actually free at all, would be better if they read the backlog instead of having to explain it all again. Also, as for my own. I'm one half of the part of the team that runs the numbers, probabilities, and such to see if the mechanics are balanced/progressive/what have you. I'm also functionally the lead dev on this by dint of I come up with the roadmaps, take charge on what the team works on next, and usually the one to physically type up/format the bulk of the documentation. Also proficient with spreadsheets.
819 
820Matilda~05/07/2019
821actually, another question
822do you have any finished systems?
823some sort of finished product?
824 
825camyosh05/07/2019
826that second one i was talking about is "finished", but I'm sure down the road as I come back to it I'll make changes cause everything can be improved
827 
828Matilda~05/07/2019
829so nothing finished you can show
830 
831camyosh05/07/2019
832No not really
833 
834Matilda~05/07/2019
835I see
836 
837Mercy05/07/2019
838You said you asked your personal friends and the like when you were working on this. What did you ask them for? I don't expect anyone to be able to do it all. I'm not that great with flavor. Or well, outside very certain types of flavor. Or thinking from a powergamer's perspective.
839 
840camyosh05/07/2019
841Well with my GF, I read the whole thing back to her as I did it so she could tell me if she noticed anything that could be improved
842and with my friends I mostly just asked them what they would prefer when deciding some things for the system\
843Just so I could get input on what the actual players wanted and not just what I thought would be best
844 
845Matilda~05/07/2019
846Makes sense, feedback is important
847Still, the prospect of potentially working with someone in a serious project when they have zero projects finished is a bit daunting
848So, I have a bit of a solution in mind
849A 200 word rpg.
850I've written them in the past, and it's one of my favorite formats
851The idea is that the entire system, including setting, rules, and instructions, shall take up no more than 200 words
852Together
853They seldom take more than an afternoon to write
854And you'll have a finished product extremely quickly
855 
856camyosh05/07/2019
857Alright well I'm currently busy with tablestuck stuff right now as its my first priority, but once I get some free time I'd be happy to get that done
858 
859Matilda~05/07/2019
860If nothing else, it is also a fantastic exercise in rpg writing.
861 
862camyosh05/07/2019
863Very true and I'll definitely do it, but at the moment I've got to deal with setting up that 144 player session
864 
865Matilda~05/07/2019
866Of course
867 
868tangledThespian05/07/2019
869Helloo, night shift checking in late as usual. I don't know if I speak for everyone here, but I think one of the biggest points of confusion/hesitation for me is that I don't quite think I see the details of the plan here? I get 'work together to present a system to WP,' but that's not a plan, it's a wishlist. XD
870Can I get any clarification on that end? I like to know what I'm signing on for, generally. Call me fussy if you will.
871 
872Papa Saint's Chop Shop05/08/2019
873Good evening Cam, haven't properly introduced myself. Saint here, Mechanic contributor and Moderator. i'd also like an answer on my co-moderator TT here, as some clarification would do all of us some good.
874
875tangledThespian05/08/2019
876(Is it even evening where you are now, Saint?)
877 
878becks05/08/2019
879He's est
880 
881tangledThespian05/08/2019
882I swear his times always seemed skewed from mine.