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1compilation of forum posts I've found that go along with what we'll be using in a general guideline sort of sense. we'll talk it over and decide what to change before the character creation process is over:
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3Well, we Green Sun Prince fans have all read Chapters One and Two.
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5They suck. But for slightly different reasons.
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7Or rather, Chapter Two sucks because of Chapter One-written mostly as is, it could just imply "Bad Ass", which is what a Demonic Demigod should be.
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10Me, I would still say a Green Sun Prince's personality changes for the passionate and the self-assured-much like their supra-divine masters, an Infernal has a very clear vision of what the world should be. That isn't to say they're selfish, just autocratic about their ideals.
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12Also, Lilum is not an "honor" or a "figure of worship"-she's a threat. "If you don't do what we want, we'll turn you into something useful as well," whispers the undertext of the ceremony to the horrified neophyte. "This is the fate of all traitors". It's usually at that point that the Green Sun Prince realizes he has made a mistake. 
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14Tone the 90s era whitewolf edgelord schlock down, we get enough of that nonsense from the underworld
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16write it less like a villain only splat
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18Tone the body horror down-- because the infernals are not about turning into something horrible, but inhuman. Lillun may be gibberingly insane, but it's because she's seen things no human can, or should see (or should they, the GSP's show no fear), and she's very close to a third circle demon in personal power. She's cassandra and the oracle who whispers things that sometimes evn teh Yozi's can't quite understand, prophecies and warnings of dire, or wondrful, events. 
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20The first and most important thing about the book is that Manual: Infernals is about the Infernal Exalted. You would think this would be obvious, but the existing Manual flubbed it by being way too much about the Yozis. The whole Infernal experience, in fact, has been focused around the Yozis, without actually providing anything like sufficient details on what interacting with a Yozi is like.
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22The ideal MoEP:I should be about the Exalted, more specifically the Green Sun Princes, and therefore, it would talk about the Primordials as individuals only in the most general terms. Cecelyne, the Endless Desert, would appear as one of the splats with a two-page spread giving the tale of her history and the powers that derive from her, but as a legend told by demons and remembered by the Exalted. Her Charmset would give details on her nature, but in the past tense as part of a fragmented story in the Charm text among a magical desert princess, noble and strong, who, if you read between the lines a bit, was kind of an evil bitch.
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24The GSP experience, it should be made clear, is primarily with a Yozi's demons, who are the titan's eyes and hands in almost all practical matters. The awareness of the Yozis proper becomes a localized phenomenon only in the most vital circumstances. This means that the first chapter should be primarily about their experiences as the rock stars of Hell, born from those brought low, raised up by the power of a stolen Exaltation, worshipped by demons and buoyed by their anxious prayers. No matter what a Green Sun Prince chooses to do with his power, he will easily find as many demons as he wants to rally behind him, eager to do his will in hopes of a better life (or just to get their revenge on the universe).
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26Except for the removal of most of the talk about Yozis, which can be replaced with Third Circle Demons, and the fixing of the obviously awful mechanical problems, the chapter on akuma can mostly remain the same.
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28Character Creation and Traits, chapters three and four, have traditionally been a horrible sloppy waste of wordcount. All the wasted words that have been in every book should be excised, and replaced with a mechanical glut of tasty Backgrounds and options for infernal manses, demon familiars, and that sort of thing, using modern wordcount-squeezing technology.
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30Chapter five, of course, is Charms. Charms are fine; I mean, I would probably reduce the focus on the Ebon Dragon's Total Evilness to make his Charms more useful to non-jackass character concepts, maybe add an entire branch of sneaky shadow charms, but I suppose those could be in BWC or similar supplement.
31Speaking of supplements, I would also like to see Szoreny and Isodoros Charms, as they were also mentioned as reclaimation Yozi; not just Kimbery, Szoreny even got his own Act of Villainy when she didn't, cutting his charms for wordcount was bullshit, especially since they didn't make a return in BWC.  
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33Chapter six is helltech. Helltech was popular enough I can see quite a lot of 3ed's artifact evocations in it.  Helltech can stay with minor adjustments.
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35Chapter seven is the chapter nobody reads.  I feel it should explain not only how to play an Infernal, but provide advice on how they can be used as npcs in other splat's games, almost but not quite certainly as a villain. Also it should talk a bit more about the relationship between Infernals and Solars and how their thematic roles are both similar and different.
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37[quote]EDIT: To put it another way, saying "Yozi escape has to be a viable goal for Infernal loyalists" is like saying "Making everything better by frying Terrestrials with giant golden mirrors has to be a viable goal for Solars."[/quote]
38Why shouldn't it be? One of my campaigns ended up with the PC's successfully genociding the entire dragon blooded host, as well as any humans with more than a drop of DB potential blood in them. It's not a nice guy goal, but exalted are not always nice guys.
39
40More importantly, freeing the Yozis' is a viable goal for a campaign and the exalted specialize in doing the impossible, so a book should have at least some commentary on what that might imply for the course of the campaign, just as it should have discussions of the other route-- Infernals happily jerking their "masters" around by dangling the possibility of something they know to be impossible just out of reach. 
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42
43It makes a handy villain plot, and 'rehabilitate and release' has a very interesting first step. 
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45
46[quote]It's problematic because 'free the Cthulhoid beasties that want to rampage across the world, gibbering with delight' has largely been done to death as a plot element, really.
47Dump the reclamation. Dump the new characterisation of the Ebon Dragon. Either dump the bride or drop some hints about her identity which do not point to the empress. Definitely dump the "metal!" "theme". Probably dump the GSPs entirely and make the book entirely about Akuma -- Exalts who chose to be remade by the Yozi and in doing so lost the ability to actively go against their own motivation (that's apparently all "no free will" means in Exalted), something no one ever does anyway. Dump the iconic characters whatever. 
48The fact it is a handy villain plot is why it sucks.
49Let me put it this way: "Free the Yozis" is something anyone with two braincells to rub together will come up with. It is the obvious plot, and thus, as the obvipos plot everyone already know how to run it. They've run it in a thousand systems in a thousand setting already. They've seen the movie, watched the TV shows and read the books. Everyone knows how the "eldritch horrors are trying to/have succeeded in breaking free" plot goes.
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51If you absolutely must have shit taste, keep the Infernals change a single thing about them and cascade from there: remove the whole "they learn Primordial Charms and eventually become Primordials" thing. Infernals should no more become Malfeas than Solars become the Unconquered Sun at Essence 10. You can keep the creepy/cool transhumanism vibe, I just see nothing that "You can turn into the Ebon Dragon!" brings to the table that isn't also brought by "You can learn Charms that work on Ebon Dragon principles."
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53You say I shouldn't be in this thread if I hate Infernals so much? No, I like Infernals, which is to say Akuma. The GSPs are like Akuma only less interesting as far as I'm concerned.
54The Infernal thematics should be about betrayal, not failure (who thought that was a good idea?). Similarly the idea of the Reclamation is dull as all hell as many other people have already pointed out. The purpose of the Inferbels should be something other than freeing the Yozi, and the most reasonable suggestion I've seen is that they should have been Created to punish the gods. [/quote]
55No Offense, but soooooo glad your not involved with project. You hate Infernals fine, but none of your suggestions are constructive or cool at all. 
56So tell me, once you've dumped everything that the fans of the book liked that wasn't the Charms (and really, you'd ALSO need to cut into the Charms chapter to achieve some of your stated goals), what the hell do you have left that's worth publishing?
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58
59And if you want to play it? "Being vampires bemoaning their dark fate" has also been done to death-- doesn't mean its not a viable mode of play, or for that matter: running a game based on "killing people and taking their stuff." Exalted should have very, very few things that are outright impossible. given that one of the definitions of solar tier exalts is that they do the impossible.
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61Besides, tey Yozi's may be crazy, but they aren't stupid-- most infernals will be selected from those gorup sthat might at first figure their is no difference-- if you're a slave in Cherak or that place where everyone is drugged, or for that matter are chosen as the guild is dragging you to get soul eaten, it's very easy to figure that the reclamation isn't such a bad thing-- or for that matter it is, but let the self satisfied people who laughed as your village was destroyed see how life is when its happening to them.
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63Alternately, it's possible to decide, quite rationally, that fixing the Yozi's, remaking them back into the primordial s, might be the best idea for the survival of creation-- a quest akin to fixing the great curse (how do you do it? First you find a couch big enough for Malfeas to lay down on, and then y9ou find a really, REALLY good shrink...)
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65But cutting out possiblities, especially in a game that has no meta plot beyond the starting point, is a bad idea. I liked ROTSE-- some didn't, but that's fine because the book, like the possibility of the Yozi escaping is no more set then the Autocthonians coming back, or the Silver Prince launching his invasion fleet, etc etc. It's one of teh 1000 dooms that just stars the infernals. 
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68Infernal Exalts are, to me, two things:
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70-Rock stars of hell. Semi-literally, in many cases. Crank the METAL! up. 
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72-The inverse of Abyssals. Abyssals show evil as a horrible, tragic existence that eats your soul and leaves you wishing you'd never chosen this. Being a GSP, to me, is about evil being fucking awesome. This is the real root of the acts of villainy as character motivation, to me. Why would you do this more than you possibly have to? Because being the over-the-top villain kicks ass and if your hated foe escapes, so much the better so you can lay him low again when you next meet!
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74
75I'll probably add more as I think of it. But the big thing is to embrace the METAL!, because it's a cool flavor that not a lot of things bring to Exalted.  &^%$ toning it down, you need to PLAY UP the much derided "acts of villainy", turning them into melodramatic villains. 
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78Scrap the whole physical of Lillun from chapter 1, I'd say I'd make Infernal Exaltations seek out hosts based on the nature of the Yozis who have claimed the Shards; Solar Exaltations seek out those like unti aspects of the Unconquered Sun, Lunar Exaltations seek out those like unto aspects of Luna, Sidereal Exaltations seek out those like unto aspects of the Five Maidens.
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80Slayer Exaltations seek out the angry, the proud, the strong, the suffering, the cast down... and born rulers; though Malfeas wishes they didn't, he cannot deny his nature to the Exaltations.
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82(not-Zenith) Exaltations seek out the oath-bound, the prophets, the despots.
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84Scourge Exaltations seek out the tormented, the outcast, the enlightened and the silent.0
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86(not-Twilight) Exaltations seek out seekers of order, believers in hierarchy, those able to follow orders into any atrocity, and those with a vision for a better world.
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88Fiend Exaltations seek out those who have an enemy. In this regard, they are the most flexible.
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90
91Add more categories as you come up with them, naturally. Of course, they are Exaltations, so they go to those who would use their power.
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93
94Heavily deemphesize the 'failed Solars' angle. Try 'people who the Sun would not have granted power, but the Yozis will'.
95Yet these are not necessarily bad people. 
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97Then have Hell be welcoming. Strange, but welcoming. The Infernals are treated as something like a Second Circle Demon, added souls (of sorts) grafted on to the Reclamation Architects. They are worshipped by the first circle demons, spoken to as peers (young ones, but still peers) by the Second Circle Demons, seen as something like nieces and nephews by the Third Circle and occasionally given the time of day by the Yozis.
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99That's within the Reclamation hierarchy. Outside it, things are... interesting. 'Filthy abominations, spawned of the vile murdering upstart bastards who trapped us in here' is a very non-controversial attitude to take. Still, the Architects have enough clout that it mostly only manifests as halfhearted deniable assassination attempts and murders, or simple indifference. 
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101We are not the game police, if you want the Yozi to escape run that plot.
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104[quote] the writers should not waste an inch of wordcount on that plot. Instead every single setting element and and piece of ST advice should be about how to tell interesting stories about Malfeas, the Yozi, the Demons and the Infernals without focusing on the great escape plan. At most all you need is a sidebar saying "We are not the game police, if you want the Yozi to escape run that plot. There are many media sources you can draw upon for inspiration for your story."[/quote]
105This makes about as much sense as providing no word count on Solars doing glorious heroic deeds or Abyssals suffering for what they have become.
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107Yes, it's the "obvious" plot ; show how the hell it works in THIS setting. Just because it's been done before doesn't mean you have to leave it out; indeed, the fact that it's been done a thousand times means it's clearly a resonant theme that you SHOULDN'T ignore!
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109There's also the point that not everyone buying exalted will be grognards-- in fact we should rather hope they aren't. Now you don't need to spend page after page on it-- a single full page sidebar could likely cpatures all the themes, but you should at least touch on it. 
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111I agree about Infernals being supposed to be about the fictional super awesome amazing romantic moustache-twirling evil, alternatively the anti-heroes with dark pasts and really fucked-up powers who are on a search for redemption for a devil's deal they never would have taken if they'd only but known(although I feel that exact thing is a much crappier fit. weeping atonement is practically the abyssal's sole theme and we shouldn't try to steal it.  Infernals are more about faust wanting to keep the money and his soul and screw the devil out of a fair barign, especially since out devils are far more trapped in hell than his was). There's totally room for both. The question is one of whether your character stops worrying and learns to love the bomb, so to speak. Where Abyssals are real evil, Infernals are imaginary evil. This is a change of flavour: it means that it is one of the Neverborn who was the Primordial of not just being evil, but also a dick, while the Ebon Dragon then becomes the kind of villainy that goes in for evil laughs and sweeping grandstanding Ming the Merciless evil for evil's sake, and then abducting the Scarlet Empress actually makes one iota of sense.
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113You do want some description of the physicality of the Yozis' prison in there, and something about the vastness and alienness of the landscape, and yet how full it is. You definitely want Infernal as metal star, complete with groupies, trashed hotel rooms, gigs (well, things to do) and The Contract, and The Manager. You definitely want peaceful contact with an Infernal who's going "You know what? Fuck the Yozis and their plan. I took their so-called 'deal', sure. But what I'm going to do is, take them for all they're worth and leave them to twist. After all." (*ting*) "I'm Exalted."
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115Evil's enemies do not have to be good guys. The playing up of selfishness and internecine conflict lets you play Infernals who aren't fundamentally about their dread masters and their war, renegade Infernals who are completely uninterested in all this theological crap and just want to rule as much of the world as can conveniently be arranged.
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117And having the Yozis being as distant in their prison as Gaia is in Creation or the Neverborn are in the Underworld would kind of make sense. You need to convey a sense of scale, that when you(r Infernal NPCs) meet the Solars you can go 'Your master isn't in the same league as mine: he isn't even in the same game' and mean it.
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119I perhaps agree about having in large print: "For the Yozis to escape their prison is impossible." But then in smaller print there should be "The Exalted were created to do the impossible." A theme of my current campaign is about how the Solars can do not just the physically impossible but the logically impossible, like create a stone too heavy to lift and then lift it anyway, because the laws of physics are for quitters. I'd almost just leave it at that, no canon ways it's possible, like Abyssal redemption (should be).
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121I would also like a great deal about Infernals as antagonists in other games. Actually having 'this splat as NPC antagonist' in the GM section of every splatbook would be nice. 
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123You need the yozi charms thing so you can have the "I start a conspiracy of gsp forging yozi-redeeming charms, and while we're going along with the reclaimation we drag our feet until they're ready for it.  This is the best plan for creation's survival" the two usurpations each diminished creation to the tiniest fraction of what it was and killed off nearly all the intelegient races in the process. This is not an unreasonable goal for "heroic" gsp, any more than being a cauldronist trying to tear down creation so the other wyld-shapers have no choice but to get behind his plan to shape a better world from scratch is invalid for an 'anti-villainous?' solar
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125I honestly think of three to fourish (depending on how you differentiate a couple of the options) good general options for Infernals. By which I mean the Infernal Exalted, the Green Sun Princes, not the silly soul-selling akuma whom the Yozis use as hand-puppets. Almost all of them are interesting to a certain extent, to me, and this factors into how I'd rewrite Infernals if it were left into my hands. And if I could stop being lazy long enough to do it. All of them tie into 'you can be a villain if you want' and '... but you're still a person who had the potential for a Solar Exaltation, so nothing stops you from being a hero, either.'
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1271. Devil-Tiger. Honestly, I can see this being a very popular path for an Infernal, and it's the straightforward 'redemption' plot that serves as 'crazy villain who wishes to be EVEN WORSE than the cthuloid beasties they serve!' too, if you like. But there's nothing really wrong with becoming Bob, Titan of Hugs and Cute Puppies and it's a way to throw a curveball into the decline of Creation; what happens when you get a new set of Primordials who can sympathize with the human experience and have the ability to treat Creation as a fixer-upper?
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1292. Independence. Even without Devil-Tigerdom, an Infernal can still raise essence swiftly enough to overcome the lifespan problem if they're driven; the Yozis are hoping to keep them on task long enough to distract them. Even the Ebon Dragon's charms are not inherently evil. They're antagonistic, but nothing says you can't choose, say, slavers to be what you antagonize, walk into a slave market, and cut loose with Golden Years Turned Black. Others are more straightforward; you can just help people out with Cecylene's charmset and never call in your markers, or use those markers in ways that help other people. Become a magnificent conspiracy of kindness, if you wish.  But works just as well if you want to be anything else.  Screw my so called masters, I'm taking the power and running. I don't care who lytek is let alone that you want me to kill him I wanna be the world's greatest swordsman and my limit management is lenient enough I can just monologue while I do it.
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1313. Loyalist with their own ideas. This is the 'fix the Yozis by making new charms/learn (Yozi) Cosmic Principle and be a BETTER version of your patron' option. Much harder, more unlikely, but difficulty makes for an interesting story.
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1334. Blindly loyal Loyalist. This is the 'straightforward' option that the book as-is falls down in presenting it as the default, when I suspect most Infernals wouldn't fall in this category longer than the very earliest part of their careers, at best. They shouldn't be totally absent - some people really do just want to see the world burn - but the single biggest change I would make is clearly present this group as wrong, not getting what their Exaltation is all about. It's something an Infernal should be within their first few years and then they decide 'screw this!'. The Yozis don't mind Infernals dying on missions so long as it advances their agenda for this reason, and this should be made explicit in the Storyteller section of a theoretical revised book. (It's also a great reason for an Infernal to quit being a loyalist when they figure this out.)
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135I realize few are going to agree with me, but:
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137Infernals as mini/proto-Yozi never made sense to me.  I feel like we could drop that line in it's entirity and tighten up the rest. It doesn't even make an appearance until Broken Winged Crane anyway, and is by far among the cringiest things in Exalted what with the people who get attached to it. Have you been to Sufficient Velocity lately?
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139Oh, and please stop making the Yozi so boringly human; they had their 3rd Circles as monkey-scaled intermediaries from day one, the rest of them can remain all alien and inhuman force of corrupted nature, thank you very much. 
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141betrayal, whether of others or feeling betrayed by the world yourself, is a better fit than failure I feel, but it is also much more narrow. Maybe that can be one of the yozi's "things" as mentioned above with a different selection process for each caste, or possibly even for each favored yozi instead. that way you can keep the failed solar thing too, just as somebody else's/
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143I think they should be called an "Akuma", not a "Green Sun Prince", because it's a much better name, and has been used for Infernal Exalted throughout the line. "Green Sun Prince" doesn't even make much sense, since only one of their castes has anything to do with the Green Sun at all.  If you must keep the other splats who sold their <strike>soul</strike> "free will" which is apparently just removing their ability to act against their motivation? you can pick a new name for <i>them</i>.    GSP can stay on as a title, Lawgivers for Solars or Prince of the Earth for Terrestrials, but I like Warlock better for Infernals anyway.
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145[quote][quote]prince of the earth for terrestrials[/quote]
146that isn't a title for terrestrial exalts, their title is "the dragonblooded".  prince of the earth is generic for all the gods's exalted.[/quote]
147Well it should be DB only, that makes the most sense by far.  And while I'm off topic anyway, yellow and white jade should switch colors, white as non-elemental and yellow for earth.
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149[quote]I love the charms but not their fluff.  Why corrupt solars but replace their charms?  That makes no sense!  I can see the Yozi corrupting Solar essences into something Ligier-themed or otherwise corrupted, and they would use a variant Solar charmset much like Abyssals. A type of Exalt that actually fields Yozi charms would have to be created, by the Yozi, from scratch. Which they can't do because Tolkien said evil can not be creative wait what?
150I get they were hard to make, it took Autobot "the primordial of crafts" to do it...single handedly. The Yozi may have been delibrately broken and twisted but they also made the world, all of them working together would surely be able to make an exalt themselves now that they've had the chance to study a few. Make THAT the gsp infernals.  
151So, dump the existing Infernals (or maybe keep corrupted green Solars around as animatronic honor guard), have the Yozi make Exaltations of their own, and plan a reclamation that is ironically similar to the way the Incarna got around their geas back then.
152[/quote]
153It's more that part of the surrender oaths prevent the Yozis from making Exalts. It's nothing to do with the nature of evil or the Yozis- it's an externally imposed constraint.   I for one feel the fluff is salvagable. This thread is just about rewriting chapter 1 to keep our goal managable, and I was thinking a partial rewrite at that.  We can think of doing more after we have something at least passably functional.  This feels extreme to me though.
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155Between posts like this and that guy who won't stop SCREAMING about "Akuma are da only tru infernalzz!!!!  Throw out the book and spend the engergy on Solars!", I hate the RPG player logic of "throw the baby out with the bathwater". It stinks of fan entitlement to me and that is toxic to setting design. 
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157[quote]I'd be tempted to throw out the current GPS origin story out completely and have them be the result of mad first age Solar experiments. Solar sorcery could be expanded to include an option to turn yourself into an Infernal which them carries on to the next incarnation. The shards would have been in the Jade Prison along with all the rest.
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159Result: all the transhuman wierdness you could possible want, without the perfuctionary ritual of Flipping Off the Yozis. The yozis might try to convince the newly released Infernals in the vague hope that their various mental transformations will make them sympathetic to the demon's plight, but that'd be the extent of their connection. [/quote]
160No.
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162I think I'd basically leave most of it as it is, but trimming out a lot of the more tasteless and juvenile bits.  Like the wasp dick. Why. Just...why? Were the writers 14?  14 and cringy as fuck?
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164[quote]This makes about as much sense as providing no word count on Solars doing glorious heroic deeds or Abyssals suffering for what they have become.
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166Yes, it's the "obvious" plot ; show how the hell it works in THIS setting. Just because it's been done before doesn't mean you have to leave it out; indeed, the fact that it's been done a thousand times means it's clearly a resonant theme that you SHOULDN'T ignore![/quote]
167
168I agree wholeheartedly. I don't like the idea of obvious plot considerations being bad solely by their being obvious. For me the quality is found in how you execute that plot, not the simplicity of what the plot is based around. And really any plot about getting the Yozis out of their prison is probably not going to err on the side of being simplistic.
169
170After all take a look at part of the reason why Infernals so quickly supplanted Abyssals as the popular marque "bad guy" Exalted in the game among fans. At least part of it was because the flexibility of what you could do with GSP's storywise highlighted so many of the flaws with the characterization of Abyssals. Combined with the mechanical presentation it quickly started to bring to the forefront the ways in which Abyssals had been painted into a corner thematically and mechanically.
171
172First, take out the funky squick done for the sake of squick. The group Yozis gang bang stuff,etc. I think body horror can have it's place in the sun in the kitchen sink world of Exalted but the execution of it in the book was widely panned. And while this extends to beyond the 1st chapter I think you address the issue I still think exists for Sidereals. The books really need to go more in depths of what the day to day existence of a GSP is like. Talk more about how the "rock stars of Hell" plays out, in particularly what it means in both Malfeas AND among the hidden Yozis cults in Creation. Wordcount would require probably another book to really go in depth what I've wanted to see stuff on how the nature of GSPs in the sense of the charms they use being Primordial Charms feels when used in Creation. So much time has passed that the average mortal hasn't much of a clue about the Primordials but I expect the nature of their Charms is going to egender a lot of reaction from those things in Creation that DO remember like spirits.
173
174Finally I don't see failure as the over arching theme of GSPs. I think a lot of that idea comes from the way that the book simply highlighted something that wasn't brought up a lot prior to the name. Namely all the heroic mortals who don't have everything work out to have that golden moment where they do get an Exaltation. It's always been there but nothing really focused on it until then. It has it's part for GSPs but for every GSP whose moment of failure will define ever part of their future, you have another who used his newfound power to "deal" with that time in the character prelude and it doesn't much inform their future actions. 
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176The iconics are ... problematic. They match the themes (shallow as they are) of the fluff not the thematics of the charms, and as such don't work very well to show off the potential for cool infernal characters (and to be honest Bondage-Nun is just embarrassing)
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178[quote]Personally I like acts of villainy, but I totally get why lots of people wouldn't[/quote]
179Fuck yeah, AOV FTW!  MWAHAHAHAAA
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181[quote]MWAHAHAHAAA[/quote]
182I have saved the orphans, trapped the slavers in a fiendishly clever deathtrap, and married my childhood sweeheart!  AND THERES NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT! twirls moustache.  end scene, cheesy heroic infernal out.
183[quote]the iconics are ... problematic.[/quote]
184And their histories are odd as well, with a very spotty attention giving to the heroic failure theme (Manosque Cyan doesn't seem to have a failure at all, and the writers seem to be divided on whether "I lost everything because the world is unfair" qualifies as failure in this context.  Although since the failure's point is to push you into "taking the deal" I say go for it, those are the ones who're most likely to become loyalists anyway.
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186Hmmm. Pip, just pointing something out here, ok? If anything in this post comes across as insulting, bear in mind that I'm aiming for flippancy, and to point out that your views are not, in any way, universal.
187
188There is someone who holds literally opposite views to you on the Infernals thing. Me.
189
190I quite literally look at everything you propose to do with Infernals and respond with "What? Why do you want to strip out the fun parts of the game, and focus on the rubbish bits?"
191
192Akuma, cooler than Green Sun Princes? When this thread is done, can you and me go see your dealer, because he clearly has some spectacular shit.
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195Akuma, the ones who sell themselves body and soul to the Yozis, who get stripped down and remade and given more power in exchange for their agency? Because, bear in mind, what you think of as an Akuma's "relative" free will is not that at all. Akuma don't have a Motivation. They only have an Urge, one imposed by their remaker. Some Akuma get to make suggestions for their own Urge. That's it. Akuma are in no way free. Abyssals have way more ability to act with freedom than Akuma.
196
197Besides which, Akuma are largely defined by being those who already had power, and who sold that power for the illusion of more. I'm not interested in playing a Solar who made the conscious decision "Yeah, being a golden sun king demi-god is awesome, but what I really want to do is sell myself to the broken Primordials for even more power, regardless of the consequences." Man, fuck that.
198
199Green Sun Princes, the way they're written, are way more fun. Here are the things which GSP's bring to the table that Akuma don't:
200
201They are newly born Exalts. They don't bear a history of power. This is important for an excellent reason: Green Sun Princes can look every Creation born Exalt in the eye and tell them to answer for their shit. Creation's societies are incredibly fucked up and evil. 90% of the population are either effective slaves, or openly enslaved. Now, the Reclamation is not the answer to this, but that's not the point. The Yozis will of course be lying to their Exalts, but among the lies will be the truth, and that truth is not flattering to the Exalts. The GSP's can look the Dragon Bloods and Sidereals and Lunars and Solars in the eye and say "I exist because you have failed to protect Creation, and to protect the humans who worship you." An Akuma can't do that.
202
203It also allows you to tell fun stories about the shit you can achieve with your second chance. Remember, every GSP is someone who had the chops to Exalt as a Solar, but who failed at the critical moment. The important part of that sentence is the first part.
204
205Akuma still have access to their original Charm set. Fuck that noise. Fuck it with a rake. A big pointy one. Green Sun Princes don't use Exalted Charms at all. They get to directly draw on the tainted powers of the Primordials, which forces them to approach challenges from a different angle than Skill and Attribute based Exalted, i.e. everyone else.
206
207And Finally, the theme of failure is interesting, not because it serves the whole "Rar! Evil Exalts!" bullshit of the first chapter, but because it allows you to have a good, long look at the morality of Creation. In a Christian universe, failing to achieve something epic, and quite possibly being tortured or exiled for it because you live in such a fucked up society, and then being offered power by a demon is a moral choice, where the correct answer is to deny the demon, die righteously and be judged by God.
208Guess what doesn't exist in Creation? There is Devil that is enemy of all, demons aren't "always chaotic evil", honestly there is no Hell, well not the same one anyway.  Exalted has Tartarus, a brutal jailhouse culture consisting of entire races of alien beings. There is no Heaven. There is no God who oversees every human soul. There is no inherent morality. In Creation, taking the demon's offer, even if it were a 'real' demon, is objectively a better choice for you, because there is no inherent reward for self denying virtue in Creation. Not for mortals, anyway.  Although I admit this last one is more down to personal taste in settings.  
209I mean those stories can exist too, but Infernals are NOT the splat to tell them. That would be Abyssals.
210
211Green Sun Princes, the stories you can tell with them, and the themes they carry, are awesome, provided you cut out all the stupid juvenile rapey bullshit of the first chapter or so. 
212__________________
213[quote]god[/quote]
214I ... I don't know what to say here. Why are you contrasting Creation with Christianity? What does Christianity have to do with anything? 
215_________________
216[quote]There is no inherent morality. In Creation, taking the demon's offer, even if it were a 'real' demon, is objectively a better choice[/quote]
217Making a deal with a demon to get power is, indeed, an objectively better thing for the Exalt, and a horrible thing to do because of how you're betraying other people. It's the same deal which Abyssals and Akuma make: betrayal for power. Thematically that's really interesting -- I don't see how requiring an element of failure beforehand make that betrayal more interesting, when its the betrayal not the failure which is interesting.
218______________
219I would certainly agree that Infernals could stand to remove the Faustian bargain element, given that Abyssals already have it, and unlike Infernals, they're actually doing something with it. 
220______________
221In European Christian mythology as popularly understood today, selling your soul to the devil is considered evil because it makes you the devil's slave and dooms you to hurt others in the here and now and burn in hell in the hereafter. In Exalted, selling your soul to the Yozis is consistently portrayed as one of the most stupid things you can do, as you become an urge-bound slave. These are, in fact, the exact same thing.
222
223Green Sun Princes don't make a deal with the devil - the devil gives them superpowers for free in exchange for a non-binding promise of aid which the GSP is expect to reneage on potentially within days at not consequence to themself. This doesn't have anything to do with your weird boner against Christian morality. 
224__________________________________
225I find the elements of becoming a Green Sun Prince interesting because it allows you to take a character who is judged by both themselves and their culture to have failed, and then allows them to return. Green Sun Princes are interesting because they are, in some ways, like Abyssals in that they are the losers, but fundamentally different. Green Sun Princes are not crippled by Creation, like Abyssals are. They aren't stripped down and rebuilt into sock puppets, like the Akuma are. They are free Exalts, loosed on Creation with powers no-one has seen in use for over ten thousand years, and some of the most interesting stories that you can tell with them directly come from the fact that they are mortals who were driven to failure and bitterness by Creation.
226
227The Abyssal answer to Creation's problems is to kill everything. The Akuma answer to Creation's problems is whatever answer the Yozi who owns them wants them to have. The Green Sun answer to Creation's problems could be almost anything, and it's almost certainly going to be more shaped to a mortal viewpoint than that of a Solar. 
228
229In a way, Green Sun Princes are the only Exalts who can directly see the path their life would have gone without Exaltation, and who are then free to act with that knowledge.
230From a certain point of view, Green Sun Princes are more alien than Solars. From a different point of view, they are more likely to actually understand mortals than a Solar is, because what a Solar had to do to become what they are is win gloriously, whereas the GSP had to fail, and endure the lot of a mortal in Creation, before being gifted the chance to change everything.
231
232Rand Brittain, you said that you couldn't see what the connections between the iconic Infernals were, or how they related to failure, particularly in the case of Manosque Cyan. Well, Cyan was interesting because that was Ebby D being a jerk, but here's what four out of the five of them have in common: they are mortals who were victimised by Exalts. 
233______________________________________
234[quote] Green Sun Princes can look every Creation born Exalt in the eye and tell them to answer for their shit. [/quote]
235Another way to look at it is that Infernals remember more of their first age lives than the average Solar or Abyssal. Having a different charmset doesn't meaningfully seperate them from Solars as far as responsibility for the state of Creation goes.   Not like those other Solars are any more connected to that stuff because of the color of their anima.
236
237I do find it amusing how for all they spew about past lives, it's the gsp not solars who have the most legitimate claim to still being that person...afterall, sometimes they get better and the past life goes back in it's box until they make the mistake of poking at it for power again.
238________________________
239[quote]At least J Random Solar didn't sell out all existence to the enemies of everyone he has ever cared about or loved.[/quote]
240This isn't actually one of the required elements of the Infernal Exaltation. It is a required element of Abyssal Exaltation, which is why Infernals probably shouldn't use the bargain element, since they're really only using the trappings of the Faustian agreement and not the substance of it. 
241________________
242[quote]only using the trappings of the Faustian agreement and not the substance of it. [/quote] I mean, they don't have anything as inane as Resonance but they do have Urges; those Urges are explicitly designed by the Yozi to help them fuck over Creation and the PC explicitly has no control over that Urge. Further, a lot of their Charms are going to make Creation worse off in ways that Abyssal Charms are only implied to. Charms like Holy Land Affliction, Sun-Salted Fields and Constructive Convergence of Principles are inherently destructive to Creation in a way most Abyssal Charms are, in fact, not.
243___________________________________
244[quote]urges[/quote]I still feel the bargin thing is unnecessary, it misleads people about what it is to be an Infernal and steps on Abyssal toes.  Comeon man, it's not like Abyssals get many cool themes in the first place, just  let them have this. Let them have <i>one</i>.
245
246[quote]inherently destructive to Creation in a way most Abyssal Charms are, in fact, not.[/quote]
247I'd say that's more due to holes in the Abyssal Charm-set than anything else.  Maybe ifthey weren't married to the "solars but emo and shittier, just you know, to make solars look more awesome by comparison, and also to give you a dark mirror to fight(that you can still reliably win against)."
248_____________
249[quote]Charms like Holy Land Affliction, Sun-Salted Fields and Constructive Convergence of Principles are inherently destructive to Creation in a way most Abyssal Charms are, in fact, not.[/quote]
250They kind of aren't. Holy Land Affliction and Constructive Convergence of Principles both turn the Wyld into Creation—they certainly don't destroy it, even if they make it a bit odd.
251
252I'll grant you Sun-Salted Fields, but it's a weapon Charm—Rain of Doom is destructive, too. 
253__________________
254[quote]Yeah, I'm sure it's been brought up numerous times before, but I really don't see what I get out of GSPs that I don't have with Abyssals if I want 'evil Exalted.' [/quote]
255FUCKING LOL
256
257if anything, it's abyssals who could be entirely dropped from the setting and never be missed.   Except possibly as an antagonist splat that provides unambigious chances for the infernal to play hero.
258__________
259I wrote this up quite a while back, I think pretty shortly after getting Infernals.
260
261-
262
263Lillun is just a teenaged girl. She’s perpetually nine months pregnant with the Shards of Infernal Exaltation, but other than that, she’s physically normal and healthy.
264
265She’s quite excited about the upcoming Wedding and Reclamation. This is not because she’s been turned into some mind-controlled slave of the Yozis. It’s not because she’s too young or too innocent to understand where she is, what the Reclamation will mean for Creation, or what role she plays in it, either. On the contrary, she understands exactly what’s going on.
266
267She understands because when she first arrived in Malfeas, the Shadow of All Things came to her, and he told her the truth. {Do you know why you’re here, little girl? I’m afraid it’s because your mother doesn’t love you enough. You broke the rules for the last time, and she finally decided you were too much trouble to bother keeping around anymore. She hated you so much she didn’t care what happened to you at all – she was willing to sell you to Hell if it meant getting a little more power for herself. She always did care about her job more than she cared about you, anyway.
268
269Don’t cry, child. I know it hurts. I’m afraid the pain never quite goes away. But I’m here to tell you a secret: you’re not alone. My siblings and I, we know what it’s like to be betrayed by the ones who had a sacred duty to take care of you. We know what it’s like to be trapped here forever in this city of brass and nightmares, locked away from the green hills and the blue sky and the warmth of the golden sun.
270
271But it’s not so bad as you think. What’s the good of a world where such horrible things happen to a child like you, anyway? Why would you want the love of a woman who could be so monstrous as to do this to her own daughter?
272
273You can’t leave, any more than we can. I’m sorry, but those are the terms of the contract that brought you here, and even I can’t break it. I’ll do all that I can to make your stay as pleasant as it can be, though. I can’t give you your home or your family or your world back, but all the comforts Hell has to offer are yours.
274
275Price? Who could ask any price of a child who’s suffered as you have? What I’m offering is only the least you deserve, for what you’ve already gone through. Anyone decent would do the same.
276
277Now, once you’ve had some time to adjust, there is a favor you could do for me, if you wanted. You see, I want the same thing you want – to break out of this prison, go back to Creation, and punish it for what it did to us. And I think I finally know how to do that. You could be a part of it, if you’re willing to help. You’re the Blood of the Dragons, you know; you were meant to be a hero. It would be a dreadful waste if you allowed yourself to remain a victim instead.
278
279But all we have to offer is yours, no strings attached, whatever you choose. We’ll never force you into it; we’re not monsters like your mother, to use you as a mere tool for our own selfish plans. It’s up to you. }
280
281the Lllun from chapter 1 is an illusion, maybe a costume. Something created just so Eddy could show Lilun him showing her mother so she could see the red bitch give no fucks.
282
283She isn’t an akuma. There’s plenty of speculation in Malfeas about whether that’s because she has some special role to play in the Reclamation. But part of the reason, at least, is that the Dragon wanted his Bride to know beyond any doubt that her daughter was acting of her own free will when the time came for their family reunion. Lillun visits her mother often, these days, and she always leaves smiling. At long last, she’s finally able to take her revenge on the person who damned her. And soon she’ll be able to punish the whole world that allowed such things to happen to the innocent child she once was.
284
285
286You will know betrayal, as we did.
287________________________
288[quote]snip[/quote]
289I prefer to keep Lillun relatively horrifying, because the Yozis are insane, horrifying broken creatures with (mostly) no regard for humanity as anything other than tools or potential threats. If they can make Lillun more useful to their cause by turning her into a cosmic horror why would they do anything different? It should serve to demonstrate to Infernals the type of creatures their throwing in with if they don't go rogue.
290
291That said, I would definitely get rid of the setting elements that imply all Infernals are made to partake in the abuse. PCs should never be forced by plot to be knowingly complicit in any atrocities prior to character generation. 
292I'd also probably play up the oracle/mad-prophet angle someone suggested earlier in this thread. Lillun is no longer all that human, but for all her insanity she has power to match any Infernal Exalt, a certain level of Broken-Winged-Crane derived wisdom that even the Yozis themselves lack, and in her more lucid moments probably has an agenda to work. (It's never come up in my games and probably never will as none of the games I have planned are likely to go in that direction, but I have this vague idea that there's at least one coven of Infernals and a Yozi working behind the others backs on a covert scheme that is both something truly big and at odds with the reclamation.) 
293__________
294I'd change their circle name to not be "coven"  
295___________
296keep the conventicle or whatever the place the allthing is held relatively tame and welcoming. with hell's more oppressive or horrifying elements kept to the periphery to be interoduced to hell's chosen as they are felt ready for it, ease them into team evil. (and as such one can imagine competetion among demons as to who gets to live there to be cutthroat indeed)
297this is also where the infernal's townhouse filled with hookers and blow is located.
298things the infernal will need should be kept near at hand, a market district type setup and several forges and other crafting stations should be on the outskirts.  around the outermost edges of that district the shops get weirder and weirder until you wander out into full on disturbing hellish wares.
299
300the yozi shouldn't be stupid.(the gangrape scene is right out)0
301________________
302they shouldn't use literal primordial charms. that stealth-buffs solars by saying their charms are on a comparable level.  this I feel led directly to the late edition inkmonkies madness.
303_____________________________________
304[quote]they shouldn't use literal primordial charms[/quote]
305They need to in order to pull off the "fix the yozi" path, I like that plotline too much to let it go. It makes an entire new faction of Infernals to play aroud with.  Longshot idealists, possibly doomed to failure since for every one of them trying to teach malfeas empathy theres some other asshole slayer teaching him to revel in the kill where originally malfeas mostly squashed people because they were tiny more than out of directed malice.
306___________
307God, I wish Neph hadn't decided to include a new type of mini-infernal in the Player's Guide to tide Exalted fans over until it came time to publish the real ones.
308
309Because that was the thinking involved. Akuma were never, ever, ever meant to be the real Infernals. Not by anyone involved. 
310
311That seems pretty clear way back in 1st Edition the very first time the 50 Solar Exalations were brought up. No way where they going to let that plot hook go unused. 
312________________
313We can cut the akuma chapter just as easily as we can cut Abyssals. Reduce it down to a few pages on how to make them and a general design philosophy, the rest could have been in the directions"Malfeas book if we ever actually needed it. I mean WHY WOULD YOU EVER PLAY AN AKUMA? Heck, the current rules do their best to make akuma playable, but they're still infinitely less interesting, to me, than free-willed Exalts that have been given access to charms of the Primordials. All that you need in the fluff is reasons for the Infernals to be free-willed, and for all the flaws the current fluff actually does that pretty well. 
314______________________________
315Cleverly.
316
317Better Off Ted references notwithstanding:
318* Lillun is still as messed up as possible, but the GSPs do not treat her state as "okay", except for the most sociopathic screw-the-rules-I-have-NUCLEAR-FIRE ones. Anyone suggesting solving a dispute with a Lillun-raping contest is likely to wind up eating a Nimbus Flare from someone whose failure was balking at a chance to save his younger sister from slavers. Indeed, most of them only see Lillun once - and that's with a very heavy crystal fire barrier between them and her, since one of their first GSPs reacted to seeing her by leaping in with his brand new daiklave and trying for a mercy kill.
319* The Chrysalis Grotesque does three things to your mind: nothing, zip and squat.
320* While we're at it, cut most of the stuff about rape. It's not "edgy", it's juvenile.
321* Emphasise that Infernals are not "Evil [TM]". They can be jerks, but so can Solars.  That said, I enjoy the dabbling in "Campy evil[TM](big c little e intentional)" especially in GTY games, but there should be a somewhat more serious re-interpration of the Acts as an option in chapter 7 for grittier games.
322* The overriding theme is not "these are bad guys who do bad things at the request of psychotic titans", but "these psychotic titans have no idea what they're doing and they just handed you the keys to a Bugatti Veyron powered by radioactive fire and epic, plus AC/DC and Dragonforce CD collections". 
323___________
324To the extent that failure is a thing which Infernal Exaltations tend to seek, I think it needs to be emphasized that they don't seek those whose failure is likely to be repeated. Rather, it's those who are driven by a single great failure, and will thus seize and use their power with dedication and fervor. From the Yozi perspective, this is valuable because it means their servants will not balk or hesitate. From the player's perspective, this is valuable because it encourages them to be uncompromising, but not necessarily evil. The key drive of the Infernal should be "Never again." 
325________________
326Honestly, if I wanted to make infernals a bit more playable and less lol raep I'd make these changes:
327
328- The demon doesn't change you much physically, basically the equivalent of a lunar tell at best. New infernals can easily pass for human.
329- The demon is nothing more then a voice in your head that aids with charm training and keeps prodding you to use your abilities, but doesn't try to color how you use them. Mortals are explicitly told they are being given a gift by those who would see creation returned to it's former glories. They are also told that using this gift will aid creation.
330- You don't end up in Malfeas straight off. In fact some infernals may never end up in malfeas at all, it just depends on what route of power they take. Some fluff indicating that if they do make it to malfeas they are given rock start style treatment.
331- Add a set of charms that specifically deal with summoning demons that's cheap to take, maybe some sort of buffing
332- Slightly worse unintended consequence effects in the charm tree, for instance more emphasis on aoe damage with green sun nimbus, or some mass umi in SWLiHN's trees that eats free will etc.
333
334Basically, at the start of the game you'd end up playing sort of solar variant with a different charm set. It's only as the character starts to get more powerful that they get the creeping realization that your abilities are having negative effects as the land around you becomes infested with the useful demons you keep summoning, green sun sickness eats at the populace, and the people in the governments institutions you control start to break down into mindless drones etc.
335
336Then make a chapter that makes it clear that the yozi don't have any actual power over their shards, beyond getting them back when a bearer dies. And that they don't think they need it. The point of the infernals is not to become the new generals of hell. Instead, just by the nature of their charm set infernals slowly warp the world around them to something more in line with their patrons, and thus the yozi reason that if enough mortals are given power they will eventually bring hell to creation entirely through their own free willed actions. Everything else is basically just an act to keep the infernal happy and using his abilities to the fullest extent.
337
338I think this creates a more interesting dynamic for infernals. Unlike abysals they don't have the fear of their bosses pulling the plug on them and unlike the neverborn the yozi don't kill every stray kitten in ten mile radius every time you don't follow the one true plan to dump creation into the abyss. Unlike solars who flip out and go OOC to do horrible things due to an uncontrollable mechanic, it's entirely your willing choice to continue using your abilities with full knowledge of the consequences and how much you limit yourself if you try to avoid those consequences.
339________
340[quote]the yozi don't have any actual power over their shards, beyond getting them back when a bearer dies. And that they don't think they need it. The point of the infernals is not to become the new generals of hell. Instead, just by the nature of their charm set infernals slowly warp the world around them to something more in line with their patrons, and thus the yozi reason that if enough mortals are given power they will eventually bring hell to creation entirely through their own free willed actions.[/quote]
341I like it, I just also feel I should point out that is the explaination given for why the neverborn don't really care if an Abyssal goes rogue, but the Deathlord who does.  That said that could /easily/ be cut from the abyssals book and transplanted here.  It works better here than it is serving the abyssals anyway.  Iirc the devil in marvel comics does the same thing, that's why it's so easy for spawn and ghostrider to rip him off, the deals have intentional holes so clever heroes can "steal" hellfire and unwittingly do his true bidding, it may also have been linked to some kind of power embezzeling scheme through which he launders and hoards hellfire for some kind of power play against his boss the real devil, I donno it's been awhile since I read them.
342__________________
343I would suggest that we drop the rapey-ness entirely. It's not edgy or interesting its bad writing and nor particularly useful in anyway. So I say drop it entirely.
344
345Lillun shouldn't be defined at all. She should be a rumor among the the Green Sun Princes. Shes one of the many secrets that the Yozi keep hidden from their servants. Some of the Princes have an inkling of what she is and where but no one really knows. Set it up as one of the story hooks for campaign, find Lillun, and see what has happened to her. Present options for what she could be and how shes being kept. A little girl imprisoned in crystal ice that never melts holding the Prince's exaltations. Maybe shes the bloated monster described in the book. Maybe she lives in a mansion hidden deep in Malfeas living a pleasant life under the care of demons and corrupted dragonblooded for no apparent reason. I think it would be a fun and totally strange moment to find out that for reason Malfeas took pity on the child and has strange unknowable plan for her future. I'm sure some of you creative writers could dream up strange plots involving the child.
346
347The next thing is that I love the rock star elements of the Princes. I think that should be played up. I also think there seriously needs to be more thought given to how do the Princes form groups. How do such different beings come together and find common cause.
348
349I do love the idea that the Yozi really don't have a clue exactly what they have made and what will happen. They are trying something anything to escape. If there is a plan it shouldn't be the reclamation as written. It should be they are trying to spawn a new race of Primordials. New beings allied to them and they hope will free them when they ascend. Is it a utterly insane plan, sure, but what's the worst that could happen?
350
351Edit: I also like the idea that Princes are defined by failure. That should be played up. I see the Solar's theme being excellence, Lunar's being survival, Abyssal's theme seems to be loss and melancholia... Failure makes fertile ground for a new exalt. 
352______________
353I dunno...I prefer the idea that the new race of Primordials comes right the hell out of nowhere and smacks the Yozis in the face, maybe kicks them in the nuts for good measure. Mainly because there are dozens of RPGs and even some aspects of Infernals (see also: akuma, Cecelyne charms) where humans get screwed over by making a deal with demons...I like the Infernals being the inversion, where demons get screwed over by making a deal with a human. 
354______________________
355I can see the appeal of that. I like the converse they thought the new Primordials would be their allies but there is no certainty that this would happen. Write it so at the last moment the demons get screwed over by their one time servants if you want. 
356________________
357Both could make interesting games. In fact, yours kind of reminds me of some things I've heard about Changeling: the Lost, minus the PTSD and psychological torture. 
358__________________