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1<greg__> im tempted to kill people when im driving w/o any alcohol :p
2<Tjowers> Howdily doodly neighbors (simpsons)! Just moved in setting up archlinux right now, gonna need lots of help :)
3<Tjowers> Right when it boots what should I do
4<homerj> stupid Flanders
5<grawlinson> correction
6<grawlinson> stupid _sexy_ Flanders
7<jamespharvey20> Tjowers: "it boots" meaning the ISO or your install?
8<Tjowers> As in it's running archlinux on the machine
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10<Tjowers> Im at the CLI
11<homerj> start installing stuff
12<jamespharvey20> ... from an ISO that you downloaded, or off a hard drive you installed to?
13<Tjowers> I read I have some configgin to do
14<Tjowers> Flash
15<homerj> so you have it installed, and made a user
16<Tjowers> An iso
17<Scimmia> Tjowers: all covered in the wiki
18<jamespharvey20> Tjowers: ok, then follow https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Installation_guide
19<phrik> Title: Installation guide - ArchWiki (at wiki.archlinux.org)
20<Tjowers> Need a bit of time on the particularities of the taxonomical distinctions
21<homerj> yeah, if you get stuck on that, we can help, but I mean, that install guide is tried and true
22<homerj> and explains stuff better than anyone can in an irc channel
23<Tjowers> Sweet beans
24<mkxone> can confirm
25<fkl> an/quit
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27<mkxone> but be sure you'll probably resinstall at least 2 times if you don't think thru your partitioning scheme now
28<mkxone> or use lvm
29<homerj> if I had to make one change to the install wiki, it would be after it explain something, it would be like the old linux module configs
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31<Tjowers> UUID or blkid
32<Tjowers> Probs uuid
33<homerj> "if you have no idea what you just read, do this"
34<Scimmia> the "do this" being install Ubuntu?
35<mkxone> if you have no idea what you just read google manjaroo
36<mkxone> or that Scimmia xD
37<Tjowers> Lmao, I was using debian, which is at least one level more difficult than ubuntu
38<homerj> na, just like for things like file systems, "if you don't know what file system you want, choose ext4"
39<homerj> and "if you don't know what bootloader to pick, choose grub"
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41<Scimmia> If you don't know anything about filesystems, is Arch really a good choice?
42<mkxone> Tjowers, if you're on a desktop and you have multiple drives.. root partition + home partition is probably very suboptimal
43<homerj> sure
44<homerj> you know, once you actually get a distro installed
45<homerj> all are about the same more or less
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47<homerj> some command to update a package list, some command to update, etc.
48<mkxone> right, once you installed arch everything is much clearer
49<homerj> there's obviously some fundamental differences between them obviously, but for the most part, it's all the same software under the hood
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51<Tjowers> Most file systems, like all of them, are a modified b-tree with 4 levels, 4 page-directory pointers to page tables that point to page-table-entries and around those lines
52<Scimmia> I can't imagine choosing Arch with no idea how I want to set it up. That's one of the major points of Arch, it's set up for power users who know how they want to set their system up
53<Tjowers> Something like that
54<mkxone> and you stop thinking about distris at all, the only question left is "should i move to gentoo?"
55<Tjowers> Not too complicated
56<Tjowers> But very specific details are sometimes hard to find
57<Tjowers> Like the other day I just needed to know my caches set-associativity took me an hour to find the info for that, that's just one little thing
58<homerj> like everyone says one of the reasons to install Arch is if you like to tinker, I have like because I DON'T want to tinker
59<homerj> I went though, set something up, it's done
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61<Tjowers> I want it to be bare minimum
62<Scimmia> Arch really isn't that minimal
63<homerj> packages may update, but it's not like an Ubuntu or RedHat with a major version number increase where they rearranged all the deckchairs and turns into a real pain in the arse in updating
64<Tjowers> It's pretty small
65<Scimmia> packages tend to be configured with a lot of options enabled and packages aren't split into dev files vs libs, etc
66<Tjowers> It was like 200 mb
67<mkxone> minimalist partitioning scheme is root + home * swap for BIOS and boot + root + home + swap for UEFI 
68<homerj> I never understood the whole -dev package thing
69<Scimmia> 200M doesn't sound right at all
70<homerj> it's a few headers
71<Tjowers> Ah yeah so my reason for wiping debian and starting from scratch was to stop using package managers
72<homerj> do you really need to have a new package for it?
73<Tjowers> Well not entirely
74<mkxone> pacman is not a package manager. it's THE package manager
75<Scimmia> homerj: occasionally static libs as well, but I agree for the most part
76<Tjowers> You're right 600mb
77<Tjowers> 653.3 mb
78<jamespharvey20> I do think it would be worth the installation wiki could mention at partitioning stage if you're going to use grub and GPT, but boot using legacy bios mode instead of UEFI, make a 1MB partition.  It would be a bit out of place, but it is a little comical when people get all the way to bootloader and find out they need it.
79<homerj> Scimmia, when HD space was a premium, and you only had like 1G of space
80<Scimmia> Tjowers: the ISO? That isn't the same as the installed system
81<homerj> yeah, split things out
82<homerj> now? meh
83<Tjowers> The iso was
84<Tjowers> It wasn't compressed
85<Tjowers> And I doubt it was making any calls to the internet for packages
86<jamespharvey20> an actual minimal working install with only part of core is going to be more like 1.4g
87<Scimmia> Tjowers: there are no packages on the install ISO. Everything that gets installed to the actual system gets downloaded
88<mkxone> i'll just throw in: USE LVM! it's the best thing since sliced bread,
89<jamespharvey20> (and that's after clearing the package cache)
90<homerj> what's funny about a lot of people that do minimal installs, go "ok, this is installed, but I need this that and the other thing"
91<Tjowers> Ok well, this is pretty shitty if it's 1.4 gb 
92<homerj> and you're at 1.4g anyways
93<Tjowers> Not bad for a few hundred megabytes
94<Scimmia> base is 1.1G installed
95<Tjowers> Perhaps I've made a grand mistake
96<mkxone> nnahh
97<mkxone> you're fine
98<Tjowers> Which OS out there is like truly minimum
99<Scimmia> void is pretty small
100<homerj> there's nothing that's in base that you don't really need for some reason or another
101<homerj> on an actual system anyways
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104<Scimmia> oh, there's plenty in base that you don't need
105<Scimmia> how many people really need jfs utilities?
106<Tjowers> Does the raw linux kernel come with an iso
107<homerj> 94
108<Tjowers> Is there a pure linux iso
109<mkxone> lol
110<Scimmia> Tjowers: that's not how linux works
111<homerj> if you really want to waste like a week
112<Tjowers> Seems like it doesn't work at all
113<homerj> read up on "linux from scratch"
114<mkxone> i think what you want Tjowers is base + xorg + gnome
115<Tjowers> So the linux source code on torvalds github can't be "compiled" to a bootable iso
116<mkxone> its just a kernel
117<Scimmia> Tjowers: and what would it boot to?
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119<jamespharvey20> Tjowers: you could get pretty close to that, but you wouldn't be able to do anything with it at all
120<Tjowers> gcc linux.c -arch=amd
121<homerj> ./a.out
122<mkxone> linux is not an operating system
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124<Tjowers> Yeah it's code
125<jamespharvey20> there'd be no filesystem, no tty, no starting daemons, no networking, no giving input, etc..
126<grawlinson> emacs is an operating sytem
127<mkxone> it's a kernel
128<grawlinson> s/sytem/system
129<Tjowers> CreateFileSystem()
130<homerj> Tjowers, a system that gets to a basic shell prompt from a linux kernel
131<homerj> is about 50 projects that have really no connection to each other
132<homerj> I pulled that number 50 directly out of my arse, but it's quite more than a few
133<ponyrider> doesnt linux kernel have filesystems in it?
134<Tjowers> So you need to have a device driver write to the disk device
135<homerj> no
136<Tjowers> Then a fs-driver that organizes disk io requests and creates an interface between driver and users
137<homerj> the driver just knows how to write 1's and 0's in a way that a file system wants
138<jamespharvey20> ponyrider: it has the kernel side of the common ones in it, but nothing to tell it do use any of those functions or let user interact with them
139* mkxone makes some salty & sweet popcorn - this is entertaining
140<ponyrider> i see
141<homerj> and with file systems, there's like 4 layers or redirection going on
142<homerj> if not more
143<Tjowers> Yeah 4 levels
144<Tjowers> Some have three
145<mkxone> add some lvm it's good
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147<homerj> well, I mean, even at the HD layer itself
148<homerj> it's like ram
149<homerj> kernel says "I want what's at 0x03943856
150<homerj> and the mmu is all "no you don't, you really what what's here"
151<mkxone> ram: indeed
152<Tjowers> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Page_table#Multilevel_page_table the HD layer has a driver out there easy
153<phrik> Title: Page table - Wikipedia (at en.wikipedia.org)
154<mkxone> hdd: ...
155<mkxone> hdd: ...
156<mkxone> hdd: let me spin up first
157<Tjowers> I'm not interested in creating a distribution 
158<Tjowers> I just wanna set this ish up
159<Scimmia> so do it
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161<Tjowers> O
162<mkxone> pacstrap /mnt base
163<Elodin> Does anybody know if we can already get cpu temperature from new ryzen 3000 series in linux?
164<homerj> like the actual HD lies about where things are to the kernel a lot of the time
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166<homerj> because the HD maker generally has some sort of optimization going on
167<mkxone> Elodin, check this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtEmvoPS4WE
168<homerj> you see that with a lot of computer stuff, the HD interfaces generally lie
169<phrik> Title: Ryzen 3000 & Radeon "Navi" 5700XT -- Ready for Linux? - YouTube (at www.youtube.com)
170<lolok> i used to laugh at rms with his gnu/linux thing, i thought people understood that linux was unusable on its own, but now i know why hes the MIT grad and im a bum in a basement...
171<mkxone> the gnu/linux thing is real
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173<mkxone> clearly proven again
174<homerj> audio hardware "yeah, I can do that file format directly" then you send it that file format and it really doesn't but has hardware to try and convert it and all that comes out of the speakers is "herp a derpy derp derp"
175<Tjowers> What does it mean to download a mirror?
176<Tjowers> Like a copy of source
177<mkxone> sauce on mirror
178<mkxone> add some sgettis
179<Elodin> mkxone: too late man =/
180<Scimmia> Tjowers: you don't download a mirror. You download *from* a mirror
181<homerj> then a good linux driver will say "yeah, the hardware says it can do this, but it's full of crap"
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183<Tjowers> So a preexisting already setup archlinux, you borrow their setup
184<Scimmia> no
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186<Tjowers> So you download source code that doesn't exist in your copy of archlinux but exists in their copy of archlinux
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188<mkxone> so you're saying
189<mkxone> lobsters
190<Scimmia> Arch isn't source based, it's a binary distro
191<Scimmia> and the packages have nothing to do with existing in a copy of arch
192<Tjowers> Yeah it's already compiled, what I mean is you basically download a package preset of source
193<jamespharvey20> you download pre-compiled binaries and other files (config) that are extracted to your system, that are made by trusted users and put in arch's repository, and those packages are copied onto the mirrors
194<Scimmia> Tjowers: you might want to stick with Debian
195<mkxone> base is agroup of packages your definatly need to make an operating system
196 Scimmia SCHAPiE SchneeSchwarz schuppentier scivola scp1 scrumplex Scuttle 
197 Scimmia SCHAPiE SchneeSchwarz schuppentier scivola scp1 scrumplex Scuttle 
198<mkxone> Scimmia, probably
199<Tjowers> I might switch back if this thing sucks, I'll give it a try first
200<jamespharvey20> mkxone: close... but base is an artificially selected group of packages because no one can agree on what is 'definitely needed'
201<jamespharvey20> !give Tjowers as
202<phrik> Tjowers: Arch Sucks™
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204<jamespharvey20> mkxone: in the end, it's the group of packages assumed to be installed on all systems.
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206<Scimmia> mkxone: as I pointed out before, how many people need JFS utilities
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208<mkxone> jamespharvey20, thank you 
209<mkxone> Scimmia, well.. you're kind of right
210<mkxone> luckily i dont decide what needs to go in base
211<mkxone> it would be an eistantial crisis
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214<Scimmia> I would love if I could just decide, I'd cut out 1/3 of it or so
215<mkxone> sometimes developers need some pragmatism
216<Tjowers> How do I set ip interface UP
217<mkxone> man ip
218<Scimmia> all covered in the wiki
219<mkxone> ip link help
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222<mkxone> if there's a dhcp server on your network the archiso should be connected right after login
223<Scimmia> assuming wired connection with working drivers on the ISO
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226<Tjowers> I set the interface to UP it still says DOWN
227<Tjowers> I have a dhcp router, does this come with DHCP client
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229<Scimmia> yes, dhcpcd is autostarted on the ISO and will set the interface up itself
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231<Tjowers> Cant resolve host
232<Tjowers> How do I make sure that daemon started
233<mkxone> did you set time and date?
234<mkxone> timedatectl set-ntp true
235<mkxone> dnssec error probably
236<mkxone> ops nevermind
237<Scimmia> LOL, ntp with no connection?
238<mkxone> yah i was thrown back to that issue i had when instaling archlinux-arm on my rpi0
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240<Tjowers> Yeah can't ping router, think interface isn't being brought up
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243<Scimmia> Tjowers: wired?
244<Tjowers> Wifi
245<Scimmia> well no shit it isn't connected
246<Tjowers> I have an eth cable
247<mkxone> haha
248<mkxone> wifi-menu
249<Scimmia> you haven't connected it
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253<mkxone> or create /etc/wpa_supplicant/whatever.conf
254<Tjowers> Debian was able to connect without ethernet
255<Tjowers> Problem is probably device driver 
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257<Scimmia> Arch is, too. You just have to do it
258<Scimmia> and yet again, all covered in the wik
259<Scimmia> wiki
260<Tjowers> Not really
261<Scimmia> Tjowers: just give up
262<Tjowers> It said ip link and that's it
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264<mkxone> he doesn't want it 
265<Tjowers> I will write a C program querying the netlink socket in the kernel if I have to
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267<Tjowers> The command line tools dont work
268<Scimmia> Tjowers: right after ip link, it says "Connect to the network. Plug in the Ethernet cable or connect to the wireless LAN."
269<Scimmia> with links
270<Tjowers> Don't spit out errors when they don't work either
271<Scimmia> READ or don't bother
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273<mkxone> dude you need to read outside the blue boxes
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275<Tjowers> Ah called it, was device driver in the next part of the doc
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277<Tjowers> I mean I guess that's obvious
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279<mkxone> you seems very keen on action, just turn it down a bit and maybe read a paragraph ahead before you press enter
280<mkxone> take your time
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