DeJYyRLB

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15TLP Flashback #13: "Why No Progress Will Ever Be Made In Psychiatry"
16
17This!
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19A Different Kind of Book Request
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21Ha! I'm reading Dreamland right now and had the same result. Very good, but very long. I got it for Christmas last year and have to finish it before the holidays or I'll get crucified at the dinner table!
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23I didn't care for Elephant in the Brain. Too many neuroscience pop books out there. I guess I prefer metaphor of psychoanalysis over science - brain books just aren't my style.
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25A Different Kind of Book Request
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27Games People Play by Eric Berne is a classic in the psychology field. I also recommend The Denial of Death by Ernest Becker.
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29?
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31A political book I have recommended here before is The Great Debate which reviews the correspondence of Thomas Paine and Edmund Berke regarding the original split of modern "Right" and "Left", by Yuval Levin.
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33?
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3512 Young People on Why They Probably Won?t Vote
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37Thanks. Happy holloween!
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3912 Young People on Why They Probably Won?t Vote
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41By the way, why does it take four people to write this article?
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43?
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45Generally find New Yorkers entertainment tastes to center on validating the belief that it is important and cool to be in New York. Their eponymous magazines I expect to be mostly back-clappery. NYMag's demo likes to see themselves as progressive and socially conscientious - as I infer from the naked pictures of Lindsay Lohan in the February 25th, 2008 edition (safe for all gender masturbation on valentines day since the readers have no committed relationships (except with their collective ego ideal, as embodied by NYMAG).
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47?
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49Sidenote - the average age of magazine readers is now 45 - which is why NYmag calls the subjects "young people" instead of just people. They aren't actually young, in the historical context. For christ sake - one of them was 29, two 28 - with an average age of 24.8333333333(etc.). Also, old people call people "young people" to make old people feel like ordinary people.
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51?
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53And finally, projective identification of disillusionment onto the young (or any generation) can be bait to both identify with (and feel young/relevant) or judge and reject (and feel superior), but most often both. You know - hip and superior, kind of like New Yorkers.
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55?
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57Heaven forbid you conclude that your time in the sun is behind you and the future belongs to others.
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59?
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61Thankfully it seems the young aren't interested in the future - so it still belongs to the reader. And luckily your age group spends the most money so the ads, and by extension the articles, are still for you.
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63?
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65?
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67What trick is being played here?
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69Did you hear the one about the guy who finally saw reality so clearly that he was successfully able to ignore it?
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71The NPC meme is a reminder that you're not the protagonist of the movie
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73This. Scrutiny should be taboo. I like my defense like I like my sweatpants - big and cozy.
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75Why is love all about overcoming other people?
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77Overcoming makes love appeal to the ego in the same that fears of abandonment or being overwhelmed relate the love-object to the ego.
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79How to not grow up to become a narcissistic adult?
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81My general advice is to find people you admire and cultivate their motivations. Not their behavior, words, or appearance. Why do you think they are doing what they are doing? If you can't find anyone you admire whether it be by jealousy, suspicion, or an intellectual belief that justifies general negativity toward others (which may include the belief that other people are narcissistic) then you should consider therapy or meditation to explore these feelings.
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83?
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85Even if you think other people's motivations are self serving (at least partially so) or are about their self image, part of the task is to become comfortable with this reality instead of denying it.
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87TLP articles writing themselves these days
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89Thanks! I hope you enjoy it!
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91TLP articles writing themselves these days
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93Pretty much spot on. Teachers are the worst, right after everyone else.
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95TLP articles writing themselves these days
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97We never should have let teachers pretend to be responsible for our children so that we could pretend they were ok and we were good. The teachers are threatening to stop playing along with this game.
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99?
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101Yes. At first it was about society. You cared about children because you cared about citizenship or at least posterity. Then it used to be think about the children themselves - as in there used to have to be children present. You cared about teachers because you cared about children and we projected good qualities upon teachers. Then it became being a teacher was hard work because (the kids were bad, the parents were bad, the government was mean). Now being a teacher (in America) I infer is an implication that our priorities are off. People are getting snippy at teachers because they are scolding us as adults.
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103?
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105Being a teacher is an easy job almost anyone can do. The reason this is hard to talk about is that the same is true for almost every job including that of the reader. Being a good teacher is a hard job almost nobody can do, which mutatis mutandis is also true for the reader - where we generally know in our heart that we're not doing our best in life and it is easy to project incompetence, sloth and entitlement upon others when we actually all share in these qualities.
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107?
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109Or perhaps the terminal decline in prosperity is finally hitting home. This is a good book about how you will die:
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111?
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113https://www.amazon.com/Rise-Fall-American-Growth-Princeton/dp/153661825X
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115?
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117?
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119August 2018 Miscellaneous Thread
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121It's just a guess - but I'd say that near the heart of why you feel alienated is that approaching life conceptually is too distant from direct experience. Even if you enjoy intellectualizing, as I do (I find it stimulating and enjoyable) you may try setting it aside for a while
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123Sort of like: If you didn't know shit about psychology, how then would you live?
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125Or maybe - don't invest any energy in explaining the events of your life with psychology, instead invest energy in experiencing and expressing these events directly.
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127At some level it is more alive to say "my ex was such a pain in my ass" than to say "she was personality disordered" and will make you more relatable to the average Joe.
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129Instead of explaining problems, have problems, and talk about what it's like to have problems, rather than why you think you have them and what is to be done about them. That process, engaged in over a period of time, will lead you home.
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131August 2018 Miscellaneous Thread
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133On the past/present/future issue: If you consider that your previously mentioned focus on a possible future relationship is a flight from the present, or a putting into the future the good life, what would you experience now if you knew that this was a fantasy?
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135On the issue of relationships in general: Consider for a moment that relationships don't actually exist. When you are away from others, on your own, you only represent other people when they are not in your presence. The way you represent them tells you much about you - as in what qualities do you put into them that you share/don't share with them?
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137The same can be said of imagining what a future relationship may do for you, such as the fantasy of being loved completely. This is a problem for people in that ordinarily we project the quality of being valuable onto other people, to experience it as a reflection.
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139In this sense the problem you are facing is that neither relationships, other people, nor yourself are really what the ego drives us to act like they are.
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141A final thought on anxious PD women, of whom I have dated many in the past: For me in retrospect it was because I identified with their pain and convinced myself that they were "wild and free" in a way I felt too inhibited to be. They in turn thought I was confident and self possessed in a way they felt too overwhelmed to be.
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143In reality I could have been more expressive. Also, it was not true that they were free - they were compulsively acting out. I was trapped, they were running. These projections just aren't how people really are. It's appealing to think so largely because they are frightened and in pain.
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145The flip-side is focusing on an inability to enjoy oneself and working through shame. If you take that path for enough in willingness to gratify your ego you will discover who you really are, one way or another.
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147It's nice to keep an open mind in these issues - which too much reading and too many concepts will interfere with. When you're an expert, there are very few possibilities. When you are a beginner there are many.
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149August 2018 Miscellaneous Thread
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151Thought of one more thing: On the problem with concepts/intellectualizing - another way to think about it is that concepts can take you further away from the experience of your life.
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153Focus on what it is like to have this situation. Is it hard? Is it annoying? Is it comforting? Frustrating?
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155In buddhism they would say something like "the raft is for crossing the river, not for carrying around." To you I'd say psychological concepts are for talking psychology, not for living. But I'd only say it because I wish someone would have told me that when I was 26.
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157As an example of this, being around someone who you label a narcissist who is going on and on about themselves may take you away from your experience of feeling annoyed, ignored, or something. This can in turn point toward a more sincere desire to feel appreciated, present, and whatnot.
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159This is particularly important for those of us on the less emotionally expressive or more intellectual side of things. The analyst Gedo who wrote the book on schizoid issues once confessed a suspicion that most analysts including himself who went on and on about theory were acting out a schizoid issue.
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161August 2018 Miscellaneous Thread
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163Thanks for taking the time to reply. You have a lot of insight especially for a 26 year old. You're entering a time where a lot of people these days start to take their relationships more seriously and confront issues they previously had brushed aside.
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165There are at least two paths out of this. One is the path of strengthening the ego so you can enjoy expressing yourself in these situations where you are afraid of escalating conflict. The idea here is that if you need something there is only one solution: to get it. If you don't get it consciously you'll get it unconsciously - so might as well do it on purpose.
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167The other path I know of is to dis-identify with the ego, call it the spiritual path. To go down this path your ideas of the self, others, relationships and the mind will have to change.
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169You don't seem particularly obsessed with the past, or preoccupied with the future. You may be more in your head / relating to your life through concepts than you are aware of.
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171When you say you are "projecting fear, envy, disgust" do you mean that you believe other people have these feelings toward you? Or is it more like you think you are radiating these qualities in a way others pick up on, which accounts for their behavior toward you?
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173Last question - do you consider yourself in touch with your emotions? In other words besides the confrontation you are avoiding can you express other feelings, as in show people how you're feeling?
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175Thanks again - the general factor shared by both meditation route and therapy route is to fully experience any feelings you are avoiding. A novel/weird author who helped with a body work approach was Peter Levine and Healing Trauma. I was/am a very intellectual guy (but it was/is an ego defense) and had trouble feeling any emotions. Turned out it was largely because I found them overwhelming. Getting out of my head and away from concepts was eventually helpful.
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177August 2018 Miscellaneous Thread
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179Thank you!
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181I might have some specific advice if you could tell me more about these issues. My main two cents are: Try talk therapy and meditation - focus on how these things (jealousy, commitment) are a problem for you - i.e. fear, anger, pain.
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183More specifically I might add to pay attention to any beliefs you have about other people. Anything which seems like a justification for believing that other people are bad, mean, dangerous is probably a projection.
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185Internal monologue, self-talk, "inner speech" -- is this phenomenon culture-specific? Does its prevalence tell us something about the way we live?
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187One response to those who deny having an "inner monologue" is that they are so identified with it that they can't distinguish it from their stream of consciousness. Others have mentalized in images more. This is especially true of people who have early life trauma experiences that were never "processed" as in discussed with others.
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189?
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191A great many people are not comfortable looking inward and accurately reporting what they see. This is the biggest understatement I have ever made, which is to say I don't think people lack an inner monologue - I think they lack awareness.
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193?
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195To your concluding questions this is at the heart of being human. For instance the introjection of inner monologues that are persecutory, which don't seem like oneself, which seem like specific other people, are all part of this phenomena.
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197August 2018 Miscellaneous Thread
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199Thank you!
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201August 2018 Miscellaneous Thread
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203Thank you!
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205August 2018 Miscellaneous Thread
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207I just got engaged!
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209Healthy balance of "blame" on mental illness?
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211Blame as a "causal" statement vs. blame as a moral judgement need to be differentiated. This is the process of accepting that one is projecting, now, in the present - and acting out the impact of the past.
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213What "causes" a persons mentally ill behavior is often times their need to keep it together by avoiding excessive shame and anxiety.
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215Telling someone that they should suffer and stop taking it out on others is unfortunately...refusing to accept suffering and taking it out on someone else.
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217Where to start on the topic of narcissism?
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219I recently posted this list:
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221Gershen Kaufman: The Psychology of Shame. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0826166725/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_bibl_vppi_i2 Also available free download online. This book applies the affect theory of Silvin Tomkins to shame. I'm reading it right now and looooooooove it!
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223Kristen Dombek: The Selfishness of Others. Excellent essay style reader on narcissism vs perceived (projected) narcissism - perfect for TLP fans.
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225Charles Derber: The Pursuit of Attention: Ego and Power in Everyday Life. Awesome book on conversational "everyday" narcissism and the social factors behind it.
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227I'd add blogger Joseph Burgo of after psychotherapy.com: http://www.afterpsychotherapy.com/
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229Beyond these there are more complicated authors: Apfelbaum, Girard, Kohout, and others which we've discussed at length over the years.
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231I think Kaufman is the easiest to understand in a non metaphorical manner - affect is relatively objective.
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233My quick summary for my personal experience of working through narcissism which happens to be what I lean toward in viewing others: It's worth considering what you are projecting on narcissists. The answer is generally hostility and agency, because they are projecting hostility and passivity. If you weren't projecting your agency, narcissists wouldn't be a problem for you. The reason most people can't see this is they are rightly concerned with the escalation of hostility. This is all concealed by shame transactions - which represent ego defenses related to social boundaries and conceal reality. The way to get over this is to learn how to be hostile without acting hostility out - which means you have to own the fact that you are a person capable of rage and hatred (in response to terror) without blaming anybody else for it. In this case you are blaming narcissists and conspiring to mutually avoid terror and is the most primal transference experience. It is the hardest to work through because hostility is related to the projection of terror and approaching it brings up traumatic fear of further abuse. If you have had traumatic experiences with character disordered people this is for you. If you have a passing conflict with an annoying self-absorbed person, focus on projecting responsibility upon them. I.E. treat them with the assumption that they will take responsibility for themselves. They are usually hiding behind something - like beliefs about work, religion, sexual/gender relations, politics, etc.
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235We want to shame narcissists because we are afraid of confronting them. We are afraid of confronting them if we have insecurities about our own hostility. This is often hidden in passive aggressive personality strucutres among people who are obsessed with the idea that the world is full of difficult narcissists who we conspire to blame our problems on.
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237It ain't real folks. The recreational belief in a narcissism epidemic is a defense against the realization that one is passive aggressive and terrified of hostility.
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239July 2018 Miscellaneous Thread
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241Yeah - you'll definitely benefit from some distance if you want to zoom in and work on the lingering impact of these relationships. I.E. it's tough enough to separate the past from the present in isolation, nearly impossible when you're in the middle of it.
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243Did anybody ever find Alone's book on porn?
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245Glad you got a chuckle out of it!
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247It's all going to hell ain't it?
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249Another point here: When there isn't enough to go around, someone must be marginalized. Wherever you find a finite supply of something, even if it is just "attention" or time, you will find shame, marginalization and violence/abuse of some kind.
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251It's all going to hell ain't it?
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253Thanks for the summary. I'd like to read it. I think we have the bizarre position of being born with unconditional self love into an environment of conditional acceptance. Hijinks ensue.
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255July 2018 Miscellaneous Thread
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257I identify with a lot of what you said. There may be a time and a place for confrontation - if for no other reason than the expressive value (i.e. you'd feel good saying it).
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259She seems to be managing her feelings through you.
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261There's this mental exercise you might try to get back in touch with some core parts of yourself. If you imagine this feeling of not being protected, possibly abandoned, what else comes up? There may be anger, disappointment (like loss of someone you loved), but you might also notice something if you think about "what kind of protective response from a trusted adult would I have wanted?" Or "If adult me could travel back in time, what would I have done/wanted to do?"
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263That positive impulse to protect yourself from abuse is a feeling that when you find it will help you protect yourself and guide you in the present. Whatever part of you it is which would have protected a younger you is a part of your self to value and trust.
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265Hope that helps!
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267It's all going to hell ain't it?
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269I'd have to do the therapist thing and say "What does narcissism mean to you?"
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271I don't think there is any way to get through life without being shamed or shaming others (unless you have a serious unrelated cognitive disorder which is much worse).
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273In my opinion the way to the good life or out of either narcissism or its varients is working through shame - learning to feel and express it. This can help begin to restore the core emotional self - i.e. you are in touch with your core values and act accordingly as opposed to being ruled by your fears and insecurities and living your defenses.
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275What one does with ones life doesn't matter nearly as much as why one does it, in terms of feeling like your life is worthwhile. This is where I significantly differ from the "fake it till you make it" or "just get moving" crowd.
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277Did anybody ever find Alone's book on porn?
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279I think he is now Chuck Tingle: https://www.amazon.com/Space-Raptor-Invasion-Chuck-Tingle-ebook/dp/B00S4B95RQ
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281Letter to a Red-Piller, by Pseudo-TLP
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283If love is conditional then the conditions for its existence can be explored - that which weakens or restores can be made clear.
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285Whether its parents or intimate relationships I think "they never loved me" or "I never loved him/her" is easier to figure out than sometimes being loved and sometimes not.
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287It's all going to hell ain't it?
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289I had not - sounds interesting. What did you take from it?
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291It's all going to hell ain't it?
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293That class of people in the past was very small, because surplus was very little. This isn't a particularly deep claim - just sort of an observation. The vast majority of people in the historical past (post agriculture, not hunter gatherers) were "acted upon" rather than acting upon others. Fossil fuels more than anything else created surplus of food, transportation, energy and time to the extent that it is almost indistinguishable from magic.
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295It's all going to hell ain't it?
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297Very. Remember - narcissism is how people act when times are good. We act much worse when the going gets tough - which is why I never understand the bemoaning. Read this and see if life were any better before: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B071W7JCKW/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1
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299I think the modern issue which has changed is that shame finally became visible because there started to be a few people who didn't have awful lives.
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301Letter to a Red-Piller, by Pseudo-TLP
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303I was thinking of your comment and wanted to add something. Tell me what you think of this: It's good news that love is conditional because that means broken relationships can be repaired. If love is conceptualized as being "unconditional" I think it leaves people who feel the lack of love convincing` themselves that they never really loved in the first place, or that they were never loved.
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305step two after shattering your expensive television
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307Regarding the OP or your last post?
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309For the OP, for instance, the news has always been bullshit since the purpose of culture is to define boundaries which hold terror at bay.
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311For instance, empathetic discussion of tragedies hides from ourselves the fact that within each of us is the potential for homicide.
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313After all - all the murder we collectively do is SOOOOO important to protect this great, compassionate and wonderful civilization of ours. And it would be so much better if it just weren't for (red/blue) team.
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315Once you "unplug" from culture the thing to do is to cope with your real self or go mad alone. Psychologizing culture or cultivating a posture of outsider-moral-superiority are defenses, not against change, but against terror.
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317step two after shattering your expensive television
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319Girard had a thesis where he says people don't desire objects directly, rather they imitate mimetically the desires of others. This in his mind is how we learn socially. To Psychoanalysis this may be akin to Introjection. But what they missed is that the "unconscious adoption of beliefs and attitudes" is actually an emotional experience at it's core of empathy/attunement - copying how other people are feeling unconsciously.
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321However this creates what he calls a "mimetic crisis" whereby children compete with their parents and peers, and adults compete with their mentors who eventually become rivals since what we want is not the object but the psychologically position of the people we are imitating.
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323I had a couple essays on this in the waybackmachine. I think one was a reply to the hotel concierge about being attractive.
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325A way understand oedipal anxiety in this context is that a young boy does not necessarily want his mother. Instead he thinks mother is important because of how his father pays attention to mother, and the affect displayed by father toward her. The son has anxiety about imitating his father in his actions toward mother. This anxiety is enhanced often times by both mother and father working to thwart the child's efforts to precociously act adult. The anxiety comes from the parents, who project their own fears onto the child. Part of the problem is that mom/dad don't always consciously know how they are feeling and it is eerie to have a child start impersonating your social and emotional role.
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327step two after shattering your expensive television
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329I should have been clearer. I mean anxiety in the sense of Girard - anxiety that by simulation we come into conflict.
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331Where do you see the anxiety function in the scenario?
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333step two after shattering your expensive television
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335I think some of the anxiety about "simulation" comes from the fact that humans are mimetic. We are other people. Even your "authentic" case of building a house IRL instead of in minecraft is ignoring the fact the (1) The house we build are imitations, (2) The materials we use are mass produced commodities, (3) the things we fill the house with our commercial products, (4) the techniques of construction were learned by copying others, etc.
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337What if the thing we want most in life in our heart of hearts is to imitate other people and feel close to them, and yet not be trapped by them?
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339step two after shattering your expensive television
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341How about "Once more...with feeling!"
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343https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apzXGEbZht0
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345The Rise and Fall of the American Suburb: Tracking the Evolution of the Nuclear Family
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347Thanks for this. I enjoyed it.
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349step two after shattering your expensive television
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351I guess it depends on the bad feeling. A kind of low-grade anxiety is associated with shame and the maintenance of boundaries - perhaps the need for excessive reassurance. A general pattern of contempt is associated with us/them superior/inferior type thinking and is motivated as a solution to inferiority feelings.
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353There is definitely a "do something" bias. I think some underlying causes of that are (1) difficulty relaxing, (2) difficulty experiencing joy without being disrupted by negativity, (3) a bias toward excitement and surprise as stimulation, (4) struggles with boredom.
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355Being "kept informed" does have the function of reminding one of the self in relationship within, outside of, above, or below the culture portrayed in the media source. Being outside culture can be informative, but ultimately crazy-making.
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357I think the best we can hope for is being deeply ensconced in a culture and being relatively comfortable in our own skin (having represented the safety of our culture).
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359Imagine being in a small tribe and not being interested in "staying informed" about the local gossip. Staying tuned in is part of staying safe, even if this knowledge produces anxiety.
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361step two after shattering your expensive television
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363Well one could consider the difference between what is "real" vs what is "true." Conversations on truth tend to delve into emotions and value judgements - or worse, metaphysical claims that lie about the source of ones feelings.
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365I'm with Silvin Tomkins in that what people really want is to increase excitement and joy, reduce anger and despair, remove obstructions in the expression of either, and to cultivate the power to do these three things above.
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367Media propaganda has two purposes: One is to sell stuff, the other is to manipulate the anxiety and shame which comprise social boundaries.
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369To not need the media or its substitutes (cough cough...youtube) to define the boundaries of identity is to be relatively free from anxiety and the need to express contempt.
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371Unfortunately this path will lead one to conclude that people like TV because it makes them feel better, helps them avoid feeling bad, and gives them a sense of agency in that one can control the stimuli one receives.
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373Letter to a Red-Piller, by Pseudo-TLP
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375You know you've made a friend when you can parse down your communication to the minimum. I'm only blabbering on because I don't know the emoji for an emotionally significant nod of gratitude and recognition.
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377Weird ethical quandary
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379Makes perfect sense to me. The revenge wouldn't quite fit unless you could recreate the originary scene in my view, since the issue to repair is not your relationship with your mother, but your relationship with yourself.
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381Whatever she did in this instance threw you out of whack with yourself and I think the ability to not let that be done to you again would be very helpful. It would have to happen in the face of (a) you wanting to feel understood by someone significant who (b) was treating you with contempt.
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383Squaring up your hash with Mom is one thing. The above will square you away with yourself. Good luck!
384
385Letter to a Red-Piller, by Pseudo-TLP
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387The reason the feeling of love is conditional is that we all have limits. One's therapist can only take so much verbal abuse or intrusiveness before they are no longer able to do what they are trying to do - which is generally making you feel unconditional positive regard.
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389Just my two cents. I think it's worth noting the longing this produces.
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391Weird ethical quandary
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393Think about that moment when your authentic feelings were met with your mothers sneer (contempt). There was something you wanted but weren't getting, and it was met with an oppositional force. Can you remember what you wanted?
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395It sounds like you have internalized the part of your mother's personality, it has contaminated some part of you, and you apply it to yourself and the world at large.
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397You could learn to dis-identify with this part of yourself, a topic which might best be explored in therapy.
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399We have limited availability to help online. I ordinarily wouldn't risk saying something so direct - but I promise you my internet friend, this part of your personality isn't you. What really is you is that part of you which would have helped 14 year old NotGonnaCooment in the face maternal contempt.
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401Excellent series of articles on shame.
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403Thank you - I'm not familiar with these films. It's interesting to note that the actual consequences of "shamelessness" is constant conflict with society in that people will be constantly trying to shame you because you are making them afraid.
404
405Letter to a Red-Piller, by Pseudo-TLP
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407You betcha. I think one of the harsh truths of life is that love is conditional. To realize that can lead one to tread lightly.
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409Letter to a Red-Piller, by Pseudo-TLP
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411I was responding to your description of him as "enthusiastic" more closely related to this topic, not his life in general. Now I see your distinction. I hear you have never tried to shame him for his life as you say - but I wonder how this letter to him fits into that?
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413Maybe something is missing. Like how do you feel about this: Are you afraid for him? Are you trying to protect him from future shame (regret and time poorly spent?)? I totally get that, but might recommend an apology of sorts at the end of this like "I realize the irony of crapping on something you're excited about in the hopes of a brighter future, but..."
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415Generally our friends are hoping that we are OK with who they are right now.
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417Coincidentally you may find that "encouraging" your friend by validating his interests and acknowledging the positives may do more to spur him on to further study than poking holes. This is obviously advice I have trouble following myself, so your mileage may vary.
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419Letter to a Red-Piller, by Pseudo-TLP
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421It's all good - I was excessive, too - and could have tried harder to understand your central points.
422
423It's probably too big of a topic - but you say you "rebuked" the object of your friends attachment (red pill) but not your friend. This a high-concept area of philosophy and psychology. You're clearly making a distinction which I did not see at first. For what it's worth I don't think the distinction is meaningful between criticizing your friend and criticizing something he's interested in as presented in his own words. As presented in your account he was excited and you did not affirm him - i.e. you are not happy for him because of your negative feelings toward red pill. I see now it was more complicated than that - but this point is still worth thinking about. The distinction between what we do and what are is good in theory (philosophy) but poor in practice (psychology). This is so because what you "are" is experienced in the moment as how you feel, and it is stored long terms as memories. So in a nutshell you "are" a messy combination of what you really want to be and how other people have treated you. If you're trying to affect a change in what he is "doing" the perception is that you are not accepting who he "is" since the reason he is doing what he is doing is because of who he is. So either you are out of touch with his true desires or you are a perceived enemy, piling on more external demands and pressures. The truth is that most people have so much self hatred they will easily internalize the shame process, and then do nothing, since they don't really think they deserve to enjoy themselves.
424
425I was wrong, I apologize. I should have asked for more details before jumping on the war path and assuming the worst.
426
427As one who intellectualizes I relate. I've also come to realize I tend to be a snob or an intellectual bully around people who have what I consider to be a naive self-satisfaction about the subject matter. It is a personal flaw. My only suggestion would be try to convey your feelings of enjoyment and excitement about concepts, rather than conveying the intellectualized cognitive concepts that the books are right, good, or superior.
428
429After all, if our ideas don't make our lives better, what good is our advocacy of them?
430
431Letter to a Red-Piller, by Pseudo-TLP
432
433Yeah, if I were a betting man, OP got triggered by his friends "enthusiasm", engaged in an excessive/grandiose criticism which left him with some anxiety, and he went to the web to try to alleviate it. It remains to be seen whether he will accept that his friend didn't deserve such treatment or will he retreat into narcissism. He's obviously a smart guy so I hope he doesn't take it too personally. I'm pretty sympathetic to his annoyance in reality - just think it should be processed internally instead of taken out on others.
434
435Letter to a Red-Piller, by Pseudo-TLP
436
437To be fair I did get pretty intrusive. It's not comfortable but I don't really think his friend deserved this. I also don't think he really believes it, as an aside, which is why he posted it on the internet in the voice of another (TLP). Life is funny. Around and around we go.
438
439Letter to a Red-Piller, by Pseudo-TLP
440
441One aspect of the good life you may want to focus on is that life is as good as it can be in the absence of excessive amounts of shame, guilt and fear.
442
443When we are tempted to shame someone who is enjoying themselves, like your friend in this example, I think we should consider what's really happening, vis-a-vis the good life.
444
445Letter to a Red-Piller, by Pseudo-TLP
446
447I can see you have nothing but contempt for me. I'm happy I said what I did, and I'd say it again. You got a couple of good zingers in at me in your reply - which I have upvoted accordingly. These criticisms hit close to home but nevertheless I don't think your friend deserves the message you are presenting.
448
449To recap: You think your "friend" needs your help to become an adult - this was how you have explained your motivation. To do this you have, in your words, "rebuked" him and admonished him along a quest which represents your values about literature. You then broadcast this to the internet.
450
451You shamed your friend and have attempted to shame me. It's ok - it happens all the time. I'm doing it right now. Just try to dial it down a little bit and you'll be a lot happier. You deserve to be happy, so does your friend - even if he never reads the western cannon for himself.
452
453The Western Cannon is indeed a body of literature. But it is also an object upon which people project their identity. It's the latter which seems so much more important in this particular conversation. Like you can't allow your friend to identify with the same object as you - or something like that.
454
455Letter to a Red-Piller, by Pseudo-TLP
456
457Thanks for saying that. I'm glad you found it helpful.
458
459Letter to a Red-Piller, by Pseudo-TLP
460
461The only way to become intellectually free is to engage, understand, and challenge the works of the Western Tradition.
462
463That might be a first step, but it is not the path of wisdom. This is akin to the teenager who rejects the values of their parents and thinks they have found the truth. You have to discover the formation of boundaries in general. I.E. the truths of resentment are no more real than the apparently arbitrary values of the parents.
464
465I think it is worthwhile questioning whether people really want to be free and what that means. I think they want to be free of excessive anxiety and shame. In psychoanalysis freedom is usually equated with spontaneity without loss of the adult ego. I.E. you can cross the street without being anxious but also without forgetting to look both ways.
466
467The phenomena of "unyoking" is both an internal and external phenomena. A typical red-piller for instance assumes that a social justice warrior is engaging in projective identification (escaping their low self esteem by projecting hostility onto white men, for instance). These projections are introjected by "Soy Boys" who over identify with the criticizer. (The blue pill crowd tends to believe that white men really are contemptuous and that the low self esteem and consequent resentment of their cohort is the direct result of the same.) Both of these positions are true to some extent - which is to say that we are seeing a relationship.
468
469The "red pill" moment comes when one first throws off these shackles and decides on a new relationship toward the negative stimulus. The process the Blue Pill crowd is using, projective identification, is a shame process - attempting to transmit anxiety and counter attune to the pain of said process (feel bad and like it!). Contempt is one defense against this - after all doesn't it feel great to be unafriad of something you see others are afraid of?
470
471Creating groups is at least partially a pattern of managing collective shame and anxiety - a necessary and salubrious psychic function. That it is done on Youtube instead of IRL makes the comment section a poor substitute for the face of the other and could be seen as incompletely analyzed anxiety in that some are still struggling with exposure of the self in the face of counter-attunement - that which makes one feel unsafe. The long term solution is to internalize the external - but you always need the external. One's ability to not need validation relies on the ability to remember past validation. Needing too much externalization is mostly about having internalized bad memories as part of the self. I.E. you can't shake it.
472
473This message that people have to achieve stuff before they get to feel good is toxic and is a big part of the shame/narcissism epidemic. People who feel good accomplish more without struggle. People who are over shamed/given too many boundaries wind up stuck with shame and anxiety they can't overcome. This used to happen to Christians, now it happens to liberals - the new moral perfectionism.
474
475You mentioned your friend was enthusiastic about the movement. Sometimes in the face of enthusiasm one can tend to intellectualize. Not that there is anything wrong with that. I certainly fall prey.
476
477Anyway I interpret that your friends enthusiasm annoyed you. The contrary point to "Read more" is philosopher Richard Rodericks observation "Life is short and books are very long." If you're not employed in the humanities reading lots of books is probably a defense, or a strategy of anxiety maintenance. Take it from me - I read a hundred books on psychoanalysis because I was uncomfortable being myself - whatever that means.
478
479Psychoanalysts used to only write books to eachother because they knew appealing to the public was masturbation. These days we are skeptical and realize their solution was a circle jerk. Given this possibility one must be left contemplating "If we're all just standing around with our dicks in our hands, why am I having such a hard time figuring out what to do?"
480
481I personally think people have moral panic at the destruction of boundaries not because of fear of consequences but because they would be left having to account for their own terror and hatred without appeal to culture.
482
483Constantly writing something but never quite finishing anything: When does it start to become masturbation?
484
485The question is indicative of masochism - as if inviting an absent father to either look with approval on one's work or to criticize and then heal the relationship.
486
487Excellent series of articles on shame.
488
489...Of particular interest in this series is Parke's relation of anxiety in the shame transaction. This explains the relationship of terror in narcissistic issues.
490
491Namely parent observe child violating boundary and feels anxious. Parent interrupts child with overwhelming projection of anxiety. Child feels overwhelmed. In the ordinary case parent comforts child and teaches. In the creation of narcissism the parent does not comfort the child or does not attune to their distress - partially because the anxiety transaction threatens the parents own false self.
492
493Excellent series of articles on shame.
494
495Thanks for saying that. Payin' it forward!
496
497Excellent series of articles on shame.
498
499Hi there. I let my blog lapse. Having a website without monetizing it is surprisingly expensive. Plus I had said most of what I wanted to say about psychology.
500
501You can still find it on the "wayback machine." I'm pretty proud of my article on Meg Jay and also the Jockey commercial "Buying underwear is not spiritual growth."
502
503Excellent series of articles on shame.
504
505Yeah, I was hoping for part 3 with more clinical and personal interventions. Will let you know if he has anything as I peruse his blog. But as always it seems to be the general advice is "the only way out is through" i.e. learn to experience shame consciously and express it in the presence of a TRUSTED other (i.e. you need someone in your life, at least once, who isn't so triggered by their own shame to reinforce yours).
506
507Excellent series of articles on shame.
508
509I found this series of articles on shame when reading a review of Gershen Kaufman's "The Psychology of SHame."
510
511Excellent read - very objective, non-metaphorical, and really helps modernize some of Kaufman's concepts.
512
513What does "confronting shame directly" means exactly?
514
515It means experiencing it fully - leaving nothing left. Expressing the full impact of it to another person.
516
517What if narcissism is a bandaid for terror?
518
519One thought on this issue is that parent's generally don't empathize with terror, which makes it hard for children to process and is a genesis of shame, along with the terror underneath it - leading to narcissistic phenomena (the denial of actual emotional reality of the personality and attempts to stimulate validation of an idealized false self).
520
521Terror comes first, superego formation, in most interpretations. Some extreme folks who project a lot onto infants don't think so (Edmund Bergler, for instance).
522
523What if narcissism is a bandaid for terror?
524
525I think this is a bandaid that needs to be torn off slowly by facing shame. Gradually rebuilding real self in therapy while discussing sources of shame is a reliable method. It's hard to just "do it" because you are rebuilding an emotional world, not just one of behavior.
526
527What if narcissism is a bandaid for terror?
528
529It is. It's a bandaid for death of the self.
530
531After reading TLP 2meirl4meirl and the likes appear in completely different light.
532
533One could say defenses never really go away - the just become more naturally integrated into character. Adler pointed out that "narcissism" fully integrated into character merely makes one competitive in the ordinary sense of the term - trying to excel at one of societies activities, partitioned into one part of your life, not spilling into friendships and family too much.
534
535Are there any books representative of this community?
536
537No, sorry. I let it lapse. Cost of a non-monetized website is pretty high. I thought about doing a patreon or something but I've said most of what I have to say about psychology anyway.
538
539I do recommend this guy from http://www.afterpsychotherapy.com/ - he knows his stuff, with less snark and snap of course.
540
541July 2018 Miscellaneous Thread
542
543Thanks for saying that - glad to see you and the gang are still here.
544
545July 2018 Miscellaneous Thread
546
547It's interesting that you aren't picking up on an emotional tone from her. Could be the "repetition" angle which can be understood as a need to stir the pot, for excitement if nothing else. Try telling her "Why don't we all go camping and really settle some hash instead?" and see what she says.
548
549July 2018 Miscellaneous Thread
550
551I'm with you on the guilt. Young mom probably blamed dad and now old mom is ashamed of that. However, she doesn't know this is the problem.
552
553I wonder if they patched it up would she credit the son, herself, the father?
554
555How many adults ever tell the divorced father (equivalent role) that "I never should have blamed you for this" and the kid "I never should have burdened you with my problems."
556
557If she's trying to manage her shame she will just wind up dumping it on the son - who probably takes it, but with resentment.
558
559July 2018 Miscellaneous Thread
560
561Whenever people bring up drinking alcohol I like to say "I LOVE drinking!!!" Nobody ever says that besides me, but it seems like all we ever do. Huh?
562
563Never fails to get a laugh, mainly because we're up to our necks in shame.
564
565July 2018 Miscellaneous Thread
566
567I always liked "Find someone you admire and mimic their motivations."
568
569If you don't admire anyone or can't vibe with their motivations then you need therapy - and this preceding sentence is the issue you should talk about.
570
571July 2018 Miscellaneous Thread
572
573Rights are institutional facts. They exist as a common belief - i.e. a distortion of reality. This is why you can't really feel something other people don't want you to feel to their face without being punished or branded a sociopath.
574
575Existentially you are free, but practically you are a slave.
576
577July 2018 Miscellaneous Thread
578
579How can I be a 1+upper? What he said?
580
581July 2018 Miscellaneous Thread
582
583Then why do you feel so unentitled to do so, like you're always warding off shame or guilt, running from something?
584
585Just kidding man.
586
587July 2018 Miscellaneous Thread
588
589There are lots of possibilities. She could feel bad and hopes that your actions would relieve her of this. She may be trying to resolve guilt about her role in the divorce. What do you think it is?
590
591Are there any books representative of this community?
592
593The singularity has arrived and all I have to show for it is this autocorrect bot.
594
595Are there any books representative of this community?
596
597I was refering to Rene Girard. He has a theory of literature which spun into a whole theory of psychology. In short - desire is always mediated through another person by the process of imitation. Lots of stuff on youtube and the web about him if you're interested.
598
599Are there any books representative of this community?
600
601You betcha! I've added blogger Joseph Burgo to the list. He understands shame and is a bit of an outsider in his stance toward shame in psychotherapy.
602
603Are there any books representative of this community?
604
605Hi there. I've recommended a number of books on shame and narcissism and was literraly just logging in today to add another to the list:
606
607Gershen Kaufman: The Psychology of Shame. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0826166725/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_bibl_vppi_i2 Also available free download online. This book applies the affect theory of Silvin Tomkins to shame. I'm reading it right now and looooooooove it!
608
609Kristen Dombek: The Selfishness of Others. Excellent essay style reader on narcissism vs perceived (projected) narcissism - perfect for TLP fans.
610
611Charles Derber: The Pursuit of Attention: Ego and Power in Everyday Life. Awesome book on conversational "everyday" narcissism and the social factors behind it.
612
613I'd add blogger Joseph Burgo of after psychotherapy.com: http://www.afterpsychotherapy.com/
614
615Beyond these there are more complicated authors: Apfelbaum, Girard, Kohout, and others which we've discussed at length over the years.
616
617I think Kaufman is the easiest to understand in a non metaphorical manner - affect is relatively objective.
618
619The Nine Games Human Play.
620
621Thanks, found it interesting. Was expecting something in terms of Eric Berne's Games, but found his take interesting. I wonder if he has thought through the implications of some basics like motivations general to all games, why/how certain games are chosen over others.
622
623America is a nation of narcissists, according to two new studies
624
625Articles which are directing negative attention toward others are an example of the authors psychological defenses in action, and are one reason why traditional analysts did not write material for the public - an excellent reason we should be skeptical of articles about psychology directed for the purpose of attracting attention. This must of course take into account that one of my reasons for writing this comment is to attract positive attention to myself. The question remains to the listener whether sufficient value is provided to merit attention - and is a fact or norma of the group involved.
626
627An easy way to milk this system is to blame popular groups and attract the attention of other groups who share the bias. I think an important question is whether or not there is anything more than this happening. I am convinced there is more to life than this in personal relationships, and remain skeptical that anything other than this can dominate the activities of large groups and institutions in society.
628
629If you are watching, it's for you, political version.
630
631It always comes full circle, doesn't it? Fighting to the death as the highest form of intimacy? Our rivals and models are one.
632
633If you are watching, it's for you, political version.
634
635The human capacity to claim the moral high ground, which is of course claimed by sacrificing an innocent third party, is embedded into the utter depths of our collective psyche.
636
637Truth!
638
639If you are watching, it's for you, political version.
640
641Nice quote. Personally when people come at me with sentimentality I like to threaten to "eat them during the apocalypse" when their irrationality brings on the good old ultraviolence.
642
643"Just remember, I will find and eat you during the apocalypse."
644
645Harper Lee's To Kill a Mockingbird Sucks
646
647I gotcha - but consider this: Even at the time the book did not purport to be a historical account. Rather, as a work of "realistic" fiction the book takes something and uses it for a purpose in the same way psychologically we take past events and use them for a purpose in the present - that purpose is almost always the aggrandizement or protection of the ego.
648
649Harper Lee's To Kill a Mockingbird Sucks
650
651Ha! I ignored the style comment. It's easy to latch on to style when you don't like the message. One of TLP's hooks which I think is valuable is that a verbose/strident writing style is sort of a narcissistic display, and can have good effects when discussing a phenomenological subject (i.e. the discussion is intended to be experiential or evocative).
652
653But yes this style of writing either creates an "idealization transference" (wanting to feel close to the wise and wordy author) or tends to create a dismissive/devaluing reaction when challenging the narcissism of others. These reactions and intentions have little to do with the subject matter since we are usually just using topics to draw attention to the self.
654
655Harper Lee's To Kill a Mockingbird Sucks
656
657Thanks for the comment! Liked the "...in this case it makes a really big deal what the majority actually is..."
658
659Harper Lee's To Kill a Mockingbird Sucks
660
661I don't think the character, were he a real person and his actions real, deserves sympathy. The entire point is answering the question "why is this book so popular?" now, in the present, not necessarily when it was written in the 1960's. Sorry that wasn't clear.
662
663Obviously if this were a true story things would be different and a real Mr. Ewell wouldn't have my sympathy. But the fact is it is fictional - bizarrely fictional - and the weird distortions are extremely popular. This is what I'm trying to account for.
664
665Harper Lee's To Kill a Mockingbird Sucks
666
667We'll have to part ways on that one. Explaining the story as relating to religion leaves you having to explain the appeal and function of religion. Radley is set up to stand in for the readers' superego - that which has made the reader feel (1) good about themselves despite (2) thinking Ewell deserved to die, in that the whole trial and courtroom scene are a bizarre (the sexual lives of the Ewell's) inclusion into the rest of the story which is more comparable to an episode of scooby-doo.
668
669Thanks for your comments. I haven't considered the article in over a year and the book in longer. You're obviously very familiar with the text so your challenges are well taken and I'd have to read it again to give better responses.
670
671Harper Lee's To Kill a Mockingbird Sucks
672
673My thesis was stated as
674
675The key to the article: The perspective which is portrayed as rare is actually the norm, feeding the narcissism of the reader and concealing the shadow which allows the story to work.
676
677Harper Lee's To Kill a Mockingbird Sucks
678
679Your analysis is certainly the common one. However, the book is "most cited as making a difference in people's life, second only to the bible." I think that makes it worth some scrutiny below the surface - which is exactly why the surface "coming of age story" should be ignored. Whatever a "coming of age story" means - for instance a justification to adults of their ego defenses.
680
681Atticus Finch as a role model of someone standing on their own ideals despite a background of wide opposition is an appealing character precisely because people are prone to blame the world for their failures yet nevertheless feel superior because they have good intentions and are on the right moral team.
682
683The bizarre sexual motivations of Mayella Ewell, rape-victim cum sex crazed frame artist and entrapper of poor virtuous Tom Robinson, obviously stands out.
684
685Of course my criticism is only one take, out of many things going on in the book. Where I come from the point of literary analysis is to look at the margins, what's excluded, the background rather than the surface.
686
687A psychoanalytic critique is not a book report where one is trying to summarize the main idea. The reason is that the main idea is a defense.
688
689Blogs/writings like TLP?
690
691Probably nowhere but the comments section here.
692
693Harper Lee's To Kill a Mockingbird Sucks
694
695Weird - I posted the full text above, minus formatting.
696
697Blogs/writings like TLP?
698
699https://web.archive.org/web/20170428221633/http://theblondbeast.com:80/
700
701Blogs/writings like TLP?
702
703Check out the way-back-machine. I was most proud of "Buying Underwear is not Spiritual Growth", my criticism of To Kill a Mockingbird, and my criticism of Dr. Meg Jay's The Defining Decade. https://web.archive.org/web/20170428221633/http://theblondbeast.com:80/
704
705Blogs/writings like TLP?
706
707I let my blog lapse. It was expensive and I had never monetized it.
708
709Bourdain: The normies will ask how could someone so well off want to die
710
711Yeah, I agree. I think biological systems, including human society, are self-organizing systems responding to a myria of factors that just sort of play out - i.e. nobody is behind this directly though there are many influencing factors.
712
713Conversationally it's hard to talk about anything without some simplifications such as "globalization happened because of XYZ."
714
715Bourdain: The normies will ask how could someone so well off want to die
716
717Reality TV has done bizarre things to the concepts of Reality and TV.
718
719I return to my hypothesis that after the cold-war neoliberal politics had to embrace globalism and anti-hate values as a defense against the anxiety of nuclear war.
720
721The logic of hating others leads people back to the logic of the holocaust and the threat of nuclear war.
722
723Remember the logic of "they got what they deserved." In the return of the repressed, it's all coming back. It's worth remembering what it was like to have "enemies" - those whom you are glad to see defeated.
724
725Faking it....
726
727Find someone you admire and try to emulate their motivations. If you don't actually admire anyone, or you project narcissistic motivations onto everybody, then go to psychoanalysis.
728
729"The Times piece brought to its conclusion a dialectic that has increasingly consumed the news media in the age of Twitter. A narrative generated on social media is fed back into the ?mainstream? press, and then in turn... appears to confirm the pre-existing narrative." Meta-news by Tablet
730
731Agreed. While the Tytler Theory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Fraser_Tytler,_Lord_Woodhouselee) may be a little moralistic I maintain a loosely cyclical theory of history.
732
733Whether rule "by the people" works or not depends on who the people are. I mean this in the broadest historical context possible. Who are the people? I think neoliberals "are" the people who enjoy the spoils of fossil-fueled industrial civilization, think they are morally responsible for physical abundance, and evidence this fact by passing out plastic goodies and dining on corn-syrup.
734
735"The Times piece brought to its conclusion a dialectic that has increasingly consumed the news media in the age of Twitter. A narrative generated on social media is fed back into the ?mainstream? press, and then in turn... appears to confirm the pre-existing narrative." Meta-news by Tablet
736
737Thanks for the share! Love the article, but sometimes I wonder if there were ever really any moderates - or it just seemed that way at the time because there were a lot of commonly held institutional facts - and common institutions.
738
739Our institutions now seem to consist of two political parties and online comment threads - and that's not quite enough.
740
741An inverted world: Starbucks and the development of civilization
742
743Gotcha -
744
745So the final part of Heraclitus is that "...for it is not the same river and he is not the same man..." in this context seems to be a claim that either (a) a specific claim that this time its different, or (b) a general claim that history is not a good prediction for future events.
746
747Regarding N I do no purport to defend the eternal recurrence as literally true, and was just using the phrase as a metaphor which could be understood as "Things tend to repeat themselves, for instance..."
748
749The subject of whether the rise and fall of current empires are related to past such collapses or whether we live in structurally different times is too much for today, so I'll leave it at thanks for the reply!
750
751An inverted world: Starbucks and the development of civilization
752
753Ha! I guess I had better avoid metaphors.
754
755An inverted world: Starbucks and the development of civilization
756
757Slogans aside, my use of the phrase introduced the claim "Empires rise and fall, peoples come and go." The slogan was obviously not submitted as evidence, but rather to introduce the main point of my post.
758
759Given that all past empires have gone away, I think that probably the American Empire will go away.
760
761A weaker claim would be that the empire already is going away and the normative statement that if one is not prepared to accept this one should plan accordingly.
762
763I stand by the above and don't see anything remotely objectionable about it. That being said I don't understand what you mean by "you can never cross the same river twice." How does this relate to the topic or my comment?
764
765An inverted world: Starbucks and the development of civilization
766
767Nice piece. I think the shift from "virtue signaling" to "aggressive posturing" is upon us, which reveals that this was all a defense against anxiety about out-group violence.
768
769Other peoples are nice to visit, and they are welcome to visit here, but they can't stay and the ones who are here have to go away - or else. There, that's aggression signaling.
770
771Time is a flat circle, and history keeps on truckin'. Empires rise and fall, peoples come and go. If you're not prepared to embrace this, you should plan accordingly for violence.
772
773Either path represents letting go to the flows of history - either through attachment or object loss.
774
775TLP Flashback #3: "Is The Cult Of Self-Esteem Ruining Our Kids?"
776
777Some of my thoughts: Baby boomers suck because they were the first generation which by and large never accomplished anything. They treat their children in a way which justifies their own existential position, much like we all do.
778
779Narcissism is a problem of not feeling entitled and making others stand-in for your superego which is itself a symptom of not feeling entitled. Not feeling entitled is related to never accomplishing anything. "Grandiose" behavior is the return of the repressed - a symptom of not feeling entitled.
780
781But what alone never adequately gets to is that feeling entitled is circular since it points back to society and the expectations of others as in conflict with existential entitlement (i.e. without respect of culture you deserve neither everything nor nothing)
782
783Favorite point is looking at behavior in terms of how we make the world safe for ourselves in terms of anxiety.
784
785"WE ARE ALL VERY ANXIOUS" The reaction formation of anxiety
786
787We've reached an impasse. I'll leave it at that.
788
789"WE ARE ALL VERY ANXIOUS" The reaction formation of anxiety
790
791The numbers are symbols replicated from a set. The symbols refer to referents. Replicating the symbol does not replicate the referant any more than you declaring a prisoner guilty, or pronouncing a couple man or wife, or declaring war on Russian on behalf of the United States are the same as judges or congress speaking the same words.
792
793You're not being empirical because you are rejecting sensory information which imparts knowledge - such as the observation that the usage of symbols function from relative social roles and the phenomena of authority.
794
795The bank did not give your numbers equality - they gave credence to what your numbers represented.
796
797"WE ARE ALL VERY ANXIOUS" The reaction formation of anxiety
798
799To pay someone means to instruct a bank to initiate an accounting function and change numbers up and down. That action is objective and a material reality. You say it's not.
800
801Not quite. I say that I can do it just as well as anyone else can.
802
803Your ability to type is not in question. Neither is whether or not you are employed at the bank - in which case your changing numbers by fiat would still be illegal. The issue in question is relational - as in the owner of the account directs an authorized representative of the bank to make the change. These are social functions governed by normative values, (owner...authorized) and are relative to the institutions. Yet it is also functional, in that you cannot materially access the accounts of the people in question (unless you are a hacker). It's not a matter of whether you can adjust numbers, it's whether you have the authority to do so on his banks computer, which you do not - other than to instruct your bank to initiate this activity.
804
805That you can type numbers here doesn't mean that others think they are just as good. Now if you say your authority is just as good as anybody else's, or you don't care what other people think, we can wrap this up - because the whole argument is little more than a "fuck you" word game.
806
807"WE ARE ALL VERY ANXIOUS" The reaction formation of anxiety
808
809You did not jettison social reality, you just placed yourself outside it. You're discounting psychological states from your definition of material reality, among other things.
810
811It's empirically true that there is indeed water in beer. Yet if I ask you if there is water in the fridge and there are only cans of beer to drink you would be behaving in bad faith to tell me yes, given that you know I meant a bottle or glass of drinking water. But this is also only really so because I say so, and I think other people say so too.
812
813To pay someone means to instruct a bank to initiate an accounting function and change numbers up and down. That action is objective and a material reality. You say it's not.
814
815The difference between a high self esteem activity and a low conscientiousness activity is relative, and recursive, to how you see yourself in relation to others and your identity in comparison to various institutional facts - such as what is good or bad, and what you ought to do.
816
817You and I do not see your position in society the same way in this regard. Institutional facts are true or false by comparison to the institutional behaviors in the Aristotelian sense of comparative truth. That an obligation isn't real like a turnip since you can't compare their size and shape is a category error.
818
819I would also argue that if empiricism is true and all knowledge can be derived from sense experience that you are discounting proprioception and emotional affects in your theory of material truth. It's possible for someone to discount other peoples emotional sensory experiences (like feelings of obligation). It's also possible to be physically unable to attune to these stimuli. Neither of these have anything to do with empiricism and self esteem - but would represent a lack of knowledge, not some new epiphany.
820
821"WE ARE ALL VERY ANXIOUS" The reaction formation of anxiety
822
823Nah, you violated the shared meaning of "pay." Instructing a bank to change your points is objective and material, even if the poor sap couldn't articulate it. We're not on the same page here.
824
825"WE ARE ALL VERY ANXIOUS" The reaction formation of anxiety
826
827I think this based on a study of linguistics, including first and foremost the book I sent a link to. Also based on direct observation of reality you can observe that money symbols are used to refer to social realities - such as entitlements and obligations, words which describe relationships between people which are ultimately related psychological states of mind.
828
829I don't know the details of your interaction, but by speaking the words "I agree to pay money" you have undertaken an obligation to pay money. In the modern context to "pay money" generally means you agree to instruct your bank to reduce the balance of your account and increase the accounting of another. What you have "given" is the instruction.
830
831https://mythfighter.com/2014/02/08/are-federal-taxes-destroyed-upon-receipt-the-shorter-and-longer-answers/
832
833I would however say the definition of promising as above can be looked at as a normative statement which means saying "I agree to pay money" should mean you have entered an obligation.
834
835The extreme position in language would be that there isn't a conflict between is/ought. Even "is" is normative - in that it insists on what words should be limited to refer.
836
837"WE ARE ALL VERY ANXIOUS" The reaction formation of anxiety
838
839They refer to an institutional fact, as described by John Searle
840
841http://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803100005359
842
843http://epistemh.pbworks.com/f/6.+The+Construction+of+Social+Reality+(SCAN).pdf
844
845You could say a norm or also I would accept superstition.
846
847"WE ARE ALL VERY ANXIOUS" The reaction formation of anxiety
848
849Those symbols refer to something - they are not the thing itself. Is that what this is about?
850
851"WE ARE ALL VERY ANXIOUS" The reaction formation of anxiety
852
853What did the contract say you would provide? Did it say money?
854
855"WE ARE ALL VERY ANXIOUS" The reaction formation of anxiety
856
857Money is an institutional fact, it doesn't exist outside of cultural institutions - your strategy is good, but it amounts to a word game.
858
859Dollar bills represent money, as do ones and zeros. Money is an entitlement, a claim. You can't put that in a wheelbarrow as you have introduced a category error.
860
861"WE ARE ALL VERY ANXIOUS" The reaction formation of anxiety
862
863You method denies facts - institutional facts, which are non physical - such as points in baseball. https://mythfighter.com/2011/06/20/why-a-dollar-bill-is-not-a-dollar-and-other-economic-craziness/
864
865What position did you win?
866
867"WE ARE ALL VERY ANXIOUS" The reaction formation of anxiety
868
869Good luck!
870
871https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6d5VxcgIo10
872
873Hotel Concierge's "Shame & Society" Summarized in 3031 words.
874
875Good summary. But I'm not sure we can give up shame without giving up idealization and heroism - which means encountering nihilism and the ultimate meaninglessness of life.
876
877"WE ARE ALL VERY ANXIOUS" The reaction formation of anxiety
878
879Not exactly. You write them an IOU of GOVERNMENT currency, not your own currency. They create this currency digitally based on the authority of the government. They borrow 10% of the amount of your loan from the FED - in government IOU's which they have been authorized by the government to issue. It is all pretend until someone throws you in jail for not playing along.
880
881The unique thing about government IOU's is that it is the only thing the government will accept in payment of taxes, at the threat of violence, and in payment for bonds. It's also the only thing the government is willing to remunerate people with. The government does not "have" special powers, it enforces special privileges with violence. These are practical powers - and I think we mystify because it is more comfortable than being a slave.
882
883Just call it a point, not a dollar. The government is the scorekeeper through force and acceptance.
884
885You're welcome to try this out in the same way the people who refuse to pay taxes or hassle cops who pull them over about "driving vs traveling" can. I think the internet disguises how poorly these things tend to work out.
886
887The bank can take your house - becuase it isn't really your house. It's not the banks house either. It isn't anybodies house, or anybodies anything, outside the context of facts relative to the institutions of our society.
888
889"WE ARE ALL VERY ANXIOUS" The reaction formation of anxiety
890
891I don't understand your first two sentences.
892
893HSBC is a member bank of the federal reserve and is allowed to "borrow" discounted funds. I.E. the government says so.
894
895You actually can write someone an I.O.U and make your own money. It's just hard to get anyone to accept it since you don't have a practical monopoly on violence. You could also start your own bank or savings and loan.
896
897I had a friend who started a bank in an MMORPG. He actually made it his full time job for a while (exchanging into RL money). He was written up in a big banking/financial journal for his acumen.
898
899The "special powers" in question are a psychological phenomena. They only exist in peoples heads, but they do indeed exist - that's what I mean by an institutional fact. As in "In baseball, three strikes and you're out."
900
901But you're right, the "special powers" vanish when questioned. If the player who struck "out" pretended not to understand what that means (Put down the bat, walk off the field, sit down and let someone else play.). The ordinary case is one of compliance to the superego (representation internally of culture) which creates the illusion of power in the other.
902
903"WE ARE ALL VERY ANXIOUS" The reaction formation of anxiety
904
905Yeah, I follow you but think her argument is a little dissembling. Like if you ask for an apology and someone pretends to not know what an apology is...
906
907Do you want me to say the words? What's a word, a sound, you want me to make a sound? To contract my vocal muscles and pass air through them while forming my lips a certain way? Or do you want me to mean it? What do you mean by "mean it" that I have an emotion? A tonus of my nervous system with accompanying signaling facial contortions, and making sounds at the same time? Sounds pretty complicated, not sure I can pull that off!"
908
909You can do this with just about anything interpersonal - there is no "there" there, in human interactions. All communication refers to a background of linguistic assumptions about a shared network of meanings.
910
911Like the question "Is there any water in the fridge?" If you answer yes, and mean that the orange juice contains 90% water yet there is not a pitcher of water, you are technically correct but are responding in what one would generally assume is bad faith.
912
913"WE ARE ALL VERY ANXIOUS" The reaction formation of anxiety
914
915Huh? I don't follow. What exists outside consensus? A dollar bill or a digital character as tokens refer to some institutional fact - that the bearer has entitlement to spend a dollar.
916
917What the bank did is they added points digitally to your account. Then before close of business they will resolve their required "reserves" by borrowing from the FED - who will add digital points to their account. The "points" exist as datum, but refer to something like a shared belief - but there is actually nothing there other than the proclamation that this activity is legitimate, as enforced by the government.
918
919"WE ARE ALL VERY ANXIOUS" The reaction formation of anxiety
920
921We're splitting hairs, but on the same page. The banks make loans, the loans require reserves, the banks borrow the reserves from the FED, the FED funds these reserves by selling bonds, the treasury pays the interest to the FED and the FED returns the payments to the Treasury.
922
923Other than that, I totally agree with you. People feel existentially un-entitled (anxious, guilty, what have you).
924
925Money is a referant - when you say "we owe them numbers" you point out that the referant refers to an institutional fact that doesn't really exist outside of consensus.
926
927"WE ARE ALL VERY ANXIOUS" The reaction formation of anxiety
928
929They are special - in that ultimately they are defenders of the system which allows them to kill you. The government prints all the money and will kill you if you do the same, or lock you in a box. They let banks loan it into existence, for some reason - like to lie about having a free market. They want you to consent to the system.
930
931If you pay taxes the Treasury deposits them in a TT&L account. The treasury then pays the Fed to "service the debt." These payments become the FED's "profit" which by law is - you guessed it- returned to the treasury where it never leaves. When new money is needed, the FED prints new bonds. The original money was destroyed.
932
933Money is circulated to enslave of us into work, on behalf of the government.
934
935I'm being a little exagerated here, not implying a conspiracy. It's just an "elusive obvious."
936
937"WE ARE ALL VERY ANXIOUS" The reaction formation of anxiety
938
939Sounds pretty golden - I think she dissembles on linguistics (not understanding the difference between a referent and the object) in some of her arguments, but the technique is great. Will have to try it the next time someone wants something from me.
940
941"WE ARE ALL VERY ANXIOUS" The reaction formation of anxiety
942
943Could you elaborate on this? Is this from Croft?
944
945Yes, the implication is that I work to pay my mortgage. If I robbed a bank instead and said "WTF? If I didn't rob the bank then the mortgage company was going to send a man with a gun to steal my house! If I resisted him, he would kill me and then they would steal all my things! Get them, their the bad guys!"
946
947"WE ARE ALL VERY ANXIOUS" The reaction formation of anxiety
948
949Just scanned a summary. Very funny - will have to come back her stuff. It is definitely a shifting view about relationships and identity which she is implying.
950
951I've said before the debtor/creditor relationship (master/slave) seems to be the fundamental ontological experience for humans. Maybe back to Eric Berne's Critical Parent / Victim Child ego states?
952
953"WE ARE ALL VERY ANXIOUS" The reaction formation of anxiety
954
955That's the one!
956
957"WE ARE ALL VERY ANXIOUS" The reaction formation of anxiety
958
959Yeah Graeber has some problems especially with the later portions of the book - but he is more accessible than a lot of this stuff.
960
961Your point about the cosmic/terror issue is well taken. I think for many people this is what drives consumption in the modern world, which can lead to debt. Realistically in the historical context people get into debt out of necessity based on cultural ownership structures. No judgement, just saying one way social class structures are maintained is through the financial system.
962
963"WE ARE ALL VERY ANXIOUS" The reaction formation of anxiety
964
965This is one of the issues which has led me to see shame as a conflict/violence avoidance behavior. Nietzsche discussed this in terms of guilt - but I think shame is more accurate here and guilt is best reserved for object loss, a longer conversation.
966
967If you've already read Debt by Graeber I recommend you check out Making of the Indebeted Man by Lazaretto. Also the work of Michael Hudson, Warren Mosler, and Randal Wray.
968
969"WE ARE ALL VERY ANXIOUS" The reaction formation of anxiety
970
971Financialization post-capitalism has turned us into debt slaves. I liked the public-secret idea. We're anxious slaves for money and only blame each other.
972
973A discussion of Girard
974
975Thanks for the share, it's a rangy post. I wryly submit that Rene Girards chief problem is that he seems to not realize that Christianity scapegoated the Jews, which undermines his theological solution and leaves me as mostly a nihilist.
976
977Why are we offended when someone behaves-as-if something bad about us is true?
978
979I don't think we're having the same conversation, so I'll leave it at that.
980
981Why are we offended when someone behaves-as-if something bad about us is true?
982
983Try eye-balling a bull when you walk through the pasture and tell me if you think we're not mutually keyed into the attention of others.
984
985Is Narcissism-Awareness relevant to everybody?
986
987No, I think not.
988
989Why are we offended when someone behaves-as-if something bad about us is true?
990
991Because we want it to! We want to feel like we are part of something bigger than ourselves. It's our own desire which makes us "walk into the punch" so to speak. Our momentum has us going in the wrong direction. You either care about what other people think or you don't.
992
993Two partial approaches seem to be: (1) Existential acceptance and the cultivation of mindfulness meaning that you are holding this issue in mind most of the time. The second approach is to surround yourself with an in group community which accepts you based on shared values, and which defines the actions of the out group as bad, explaining your reaction as being the fault of the bad behavior of the other.
994
995I do not believe it is really possible to not care what others think about us. Most people engage in reciprocal disapproval - as in they hate the haters.
996
997It would be a terrible survival disadvantage to not be receptive to the fact that others are focusing negative intentions on you, similar to the inability to feel physical pain would make you prone to life threatening injuries.
998
999Why are we offended when someone behaves-as-if something bad about us is true?
1000
1001Because we want to feel significant - i.e. as a positive or superior part of something, and it is dangerous and threatening to become viewed as a negative part of something.
1002
1003Negative attention precedes violence - so we like positive attention or being ignored, and are very keyed into negative attention.
1004
1005Is Narcissism-Awareness relevant to everybody?
1006
1007I don't think so. I think cutting directly to shame is more accurate in our modern context of understanding psychoanalysis. Namely that shame is an interpersonal function of the superego, not an institutional fact.
1008
1009Is Narcissism-Awareness relevant to everybody?
1010
1011Agreed.
1012
1013Is depression curable?
1014
1015This!
1016
1017How Violent Video Games Might Be Screwing With Your Brain
1018
1019I think this is backwards. Video games are attractive because men have violent impulses. All our entertainment has tended to be violent, even the bible.
1020
1021Do romance novels make women vain? Emma Bovary anybody?
1022
1023I think we like fantasies because obstacles are difficult to overcome - chief among them are interpersonal conflict and personal ambivalence.
1024
1025Zuckerberg in DC exposes how little our governments understand where humanity is heading
1026
1027Hear, hear!
1028
1029Moral Grandstanding
1030
1031There's a lot to respond to here. I think I'll leave most of it for future conversations since I can't really choose where to dig in.
1032
1033Perhaps you'd be entertained by a point I've made elsewhere: I think western civilization has turned on itself since we're just as vicious as ever, yet we understand nuclear war will result if we actually develop a coherent culture and return to the historical pattern of directing our rage at out-groups of foreigners. This has been the fundamental unconscious share zeitgeist of the baby boomers since WWII - the haulocaust, and the implication of the mushroom cloud.
1034
1035The spectacle, including the internet, at this stage of the game reveals, but does not create, insanity. Since our efforts to defer violence and resolution are a desperate stall tactic of extend-and-pretend.
1036
1037Moral Grandstanding
1038
1039What do you mean by "the structure of Christ" and who are the "reactionary technocrats" you refer to?
1040
1041I also mistrust love of neighbor. It seems to me that in the 21st century people simply pick new neighbors to justify scapegoating their current ones.
1042
1043Moral Grandstanding
1044
1045If it's not too much to ask, I'd love it if you could break down what you're saying into more bite-sized chunks and I'd be happy to discuss at great length.
1046
1047It's hard not to be "reactionary" because generally people understand their motivations as coming from outside of themselves. And to a large extent, they do - in so far as our inner objects and sense of self originate outside the self. In this sense I don't believe there is any possible "structural" solution, because I don't believe there are any "structural" problems. I merely have (personal) problems with the structure, or not.
1048
1049In answer to your first question: I don't think there are any impartial positions but generally resentment is understood to imply a power differential. The flipside is contempt (down the food chain).
1050
1051From there on in your message I don't fully understand you. I think you are claiming that your dislike of the current political sphere is justified because our rulers have "personality disorders."
1052
1053For what it's worth I analyze moral issues from the perspective of balancing two contradictory human values: Reciprocity and meritocracy. There will never be a resolution of these conflicts.
1054
1055Feminism, in your final paragraph, is different than mobile games in that the former specifically aims to upset culture as they see it and overturn peoples sense of who-deserves-what in a narrative of victims and perpetrators. This is moral talk. Mobile gaming does not seem to match.
1056
1057Dystopia now [xpost]
1058
1059I don't generally discuss these issues here at great length as it is a bit off topic - but I can highly recommend the work of Charles Hall and Gail Tverberg to capture some of my concerns about industrial civilization. Her blog ourfiniteworld.com is one of few places on the internet I comment.
1060
1061Certainly for those who have the means to do so I would recommend living somewhere with a low population density and abundant natural resources. However I have no crystal ball and can't predict the future. "Dark times ahead" may turn out to mean a continuing decline of peripheral rural areas and concentration of wealth in urban cores. This would mean people should flock to cities, ostensibly.
1062
1063I think some degree of preparedness and self reliance is advisable, enjoyable, and can be satisfying to be more antonymous. This should be balanced of course with living the life you have with a minimum of regrets - as your own personal apocalypse may strike any day.
1064
1065I'd hate to be the guy who has a heart attack on the threshold of his bunker, and in many ways I think we rise and fall together and there is no real way to opt out of civilization and its destiny.
1066
1067Moral Grandstanding
1068
1069My mistake - I can recommend Gans' blog over his written books. The latter are extremely dense: http://anthropoetics.ucla.edu/category/views/
1070
1071Dystopia now [xpost]
1072
1073Let's hope! I always said I'm a big fan of anything interesting happening.
1074
1075Dystopia now [xpost]
1076
1077Thankfully we will soon be out of cheap oil, at which point industrial civilization stops forever. Enjoy it while it lasts.
1078
1079Moral Grandstanding
1080
1081Thanks for writing Katy - but I am having a little trouble following. Moral "emotivism" isn't a dig - it's a metaethical theory which I thought was implied by your example.
1082
1083I definitely think resentment would survive a foucouldian analysis and Girard is the epitome of this line of thinking. The problem with the anti-scapegoating issue of course is that The New Testament scapegoats the Jews, while the old testament scapegoated the pagans and Girard does not adequately deal with these problems in his transcendance. I recommend further reading of Eric Gans who based his anthropology on Girardian analysis.
1084
1085I look forward to exploring your political ideas in other posts and will withhold further comments on some of the broad issues you raise.
1086
1087April 2018 Miscellaneous Thread
1088
1089I mean lost in comparison to prior generations and I essentially agree with your most recent comment.
1090
1091And the best consolation I can offer people was the prior sense of existential entitlement was just an illusion anyway, encouraging them to feel as entitled as anyone in history with a sense of radical freedom. However, the fact remains that it is "institutional facts" appeal to the beliefs of a hero system in a common culture, which really does it. So radical freedom isn't as strong as ordinary religious irrationality in terms of providing a sense of meaning.
1092
1093April 2018 Miscellaneous Thread
1094
1095Generally I think the "kids these days" Roderick is talking about have lost the sense of existential justification for the things they care about. As during the rest of his self under siege it is the meaning of different roles and goals have been undermined, largely by the postmodern perspective or less controversially by the comparative nature of seeing so many different perspectives.
1096
1097I see the depressive existential position as being stuck in not feeling entitled to ones own meanings and significations.
1098
1099Moral Grandstanding
1100
1101Glad you're feeling better.
1102
1103I agree that everyday racism is banal - which is why I think the real problem with the "race conversation" is that speakers are constantly trying to make it more important, as opposed to less important. i.e. ramping up the moral discourse. It's always deepers, darker, more intersectional, more insidious at every turn.
1104
1105You'd have to tell me more about what you mean by "libidinal froth." This wold kind of be akin to moral "emotivism." I would say your response provides a safe space / holding environment / non judgmental response that would provide relief if you assume (as I often do) that repression is manifested in exaggeration. i.e. something mildly racist causes an outburst because it is suppressed and then acted out. All this is assuming he doesn't actually mean "I don't like asians." There is something about moral talk where people tend to represent that they really mean what they say.
1106
1107Moral Grandstanding
1108
1109It's only a passive-aggressive analysis if you assume I am saying the speaker shouldn't be proud about his resentments. People are often proud of their resentments (or contempts).
1110
1111It gets us into trouble when a speaker implies a good (or ill) which contradicts the listeners meta-ethical system. I see this as the case because I think (whatever else morality might be) it functions as a way of binding individuals and communities together, yet at the same time always creates a discount (an outgroup). There is considerable anxiety about not being part of the outgroup, about being discounted - or weighed in the scales of our objects and found wanting. Some of this is real, and some of it is a superego function.
1112
1113Generally I dislike moral grandstanding. The ethical behavior I like is when people take the weight of their morality on their own shoulders. As in, in your example - if your roommate said "I think Asians are bad drivers" and followed up with "I don't care that you think I'm racist." And if you would have said "I think racism is bad and by saying what you did you have lost respect in my eyes."
1114
1115Of course it is difficult to make a life with such talk. Which is part of the implication of the psychoanalytic view of civilization and in my eyes the limits of moral talk.
1116
1117The "third perspective" you reference exists only as an institutional fact. Call it a shared belief. As in "in baseball, three strikes and you're out." Much moral talk tries to control the center of this third part perspective, instead of dealing with the 1st person perspective. Skip the 3rd as much as possible - yet remember language itself is recursive and always implies more.
1118
1119April 2018 Miscellaneous Thread
1120
1121The one consolation I have to offer is that the things you kids care about are exactly as significant as anything ever devised by man - as important as the existence of being itself. Go forth and live accordingly.
1122
1123I also doubt I will make it to 90, but am preparing for a career as a post-apocalyptic warlord in the hopes of offering the grandkids a kingdom.
1124
1125April 2018 Miscellaneous Thread
1126
1127I started making beer.
1128
1129April 2018 Miscellaneous Thread
1130
1131I'm a druid.
1132
1133April 2018 Miscellaneous Thread
1134
1135They would both say one cannot decide so. It's about the shared meaning of your actions in-situ - about psychologically being part of something larger than yourself.
1136
1137April 2018 Miscellaneous Thread
1138
1139I linked this one. Love Rick Roderick. The life of the Philistine - the ordinary man who throws himself into cutlure, has been destroyed. Mostly by progressive cultural revolutionaries of various stripes - who are mostly doing the same thing - throwing themselves into a "menaingful" progressive cultural hero system, and willing individual surrender to consumerism.
1140
1141My grandparents said the same thing in their 90's. But then they said the most important thing was to go to Church and have faith in the Lord.
1142
1143Moral Grandstanding
1144
1145Good points. Personally I don't think moral talk has much value. Your question is astute about "is there anything but moral grandstanding?" And someone who is nihilistic like myself is prone to be skeptical.
1146
1147I would offer that one possible exception which is "truth-telling" or Foucault's parrhesia. So this entails some risk in the face of the listener/audience. This could be a disclosure that you do not value something which others care about, or that you do not condemn something others look down upon - conversely that you care about things other people dislike. And these truths would be absent any claim that your morals make you superior.
1148
1149For instance, I don't value world peace. All things being equal I'd prefer a world with more adventure even if safety were sacrificed. I prefer the wild west to a totalitarian utopia. So when people wax on about world peace I like to point that out. I guess there is still some vanity here because it makes me feel courageous in some sense to say these things in the face of opposition - but that's more about how I see myself (courageous) than how others see me (immoral).
1150
1151It seems to me that any belief in objective moral values makes differentiation about moral grandstanding or virtue signaling incoherent. Something like "moral grandstanding is bad because the morals in question are the wrong ones." Or at the least locks one into a patteren of ramping up rhetoric with dissenters.
1152
1153Moral Grandstanding
1154
1155Yep - we're on the same page. The experience of separating the object representation (inner phenomena) from the real person generally shows people how little they have been paying attention to others and is a sort of sobering freedom, which both allows more appreciation of the-person-themselves and more freedom from internal persecutory representations.
1156
1157Moral Grandstanding
1158
1159I would contend the negative state is fundamentally fear of object loss - or more closely to what you say (harm toward an object) that solubrious nature of the inner representation of an object has been damaged and experienced as a guilt state. My sense is that the reason we make these object relations is as part of a motivational system to avoid existential anxiety. So the normal guilt reaction does not cause some new state, but represents retreat into an unwanted one - you could call this regression.
1160
1161So if the child internally represents the absent mother (as a primary object) in order to feel comfort when she is gone, then guilt inducing states (such as hatred toward the mother) cause damage to the internal object. In other words it reveals the illusion of object representation and opens one to existential dread. Relationships to our objects are a way to feel safe, and to feel a part of something larger than oneself.
1162
1163I would say that, whatever else maturity means, one thing it means is that an individual can deal with partial objects - or can see whole people - knowing all persons, including the self, have both good/bad and are neither fundamentally good/bad. And yes I think guilt in this sense can be mature remorse - since the object is not dehumanized as being all bad one can separate the consequence on the object from the consequence of the self object transference.
1164
1165Sorry for the jargon. And the emphasis. I do go on and on sometimes.
1166
1167Moral Grandstanding
1168
1169I agree that vanity is almost universal - but you've gone a little afield off the topic. Private verbalizations or overheard conversations are very different than when one intentionally speaks so as to be heard. I also agree that the listener cannot immediately understand what language fully means to the speaker. And furthermore I agree that people experience affective sequences such as guilt-about-anger, or shame-about-exhibitionism (See Silvin Tomkins) which gives a fuller picture of individual psycho-dynamics and the relative position of the superego to the ego. Moral grandstanding may be pride-about-resentment in some cases, for instance.
1170
1171Sorry to hear you have a cold. Get well soon.
1172
1173Moral Grandstanding
1174
1175Nope, that's what I meant. There has been much conflict over this topic since Freud. I think "authentic" guilt is fear of object loss - thrown into the anxiety of being cut off from the objects. But most of the guilt people experience is fear of punishment - even if only by the superego - which represents past punitive relationships.
1176
1177Moral Grandstanding
1178
1179What specifically do you disagree with? I'm not following you. If you think there is an important distinction between "moral grandstanding" and ordinary "venting" or "ranting" please say so. I've cut a pretty clear line. I don't see how you intend to use these terms. If I'm venting or ranting I'm not necessarily saying the source of my discomfiture is a moral issue. I.E. Complaining about traffic might still be to boost my sense of self importance in order to signal for soothing and support, but it in no way necessarily implies moral stakes - as in "other drivers are baddies and shouldn't be obstructing me."
1180
1181Moral Grandstanding
1182
1183Within the first linked article click on the term "problems" to go to an article which criticizes the term, which I also agree with. I prefer moral grandstanding - which specifically means that a person is accused or suspected of using public moral talk in part out of vanity (i.e. wanting to be seen as good).
1184
1185Read the linked article and let me know what you think. It's important to distinguish authentic moral discourse from moral grandstanding. I am beginning to think that the only way to do so is by testing for humility - i.e. the speaker does not believe their position makes them better than other people. This however entails an objection to the concept of moral realism which I don't think many have considered. Specifically - if anyone who disagress with you is assumed to be "grandstanding" it may just be that you disagree with them. I rest my laurels on the humility argument.
1186
1187https://www.adamsmith.org/blog/stop-saying-virtue-signalling
1188
1189I am a sort of moral nihilist (actually a moral institutionalist, which is obscure). So I think most moral talk is grandstanding - unless it passes the humility test - and is best viewed as group boundary defining talk.
1190
1191Moral Grandstanding
1192
1193Then again, some distinguish fear of punishment (guilt) from remorse.
1194
1195Moral Grandstanding
1196
1197I think so. My personal sense is that moral humility would mean admitting that your moral views do not make you a better person than others. In some way this is different than righteousness. So humility is primarily about low levels of vanity.
1198
1199Moral Grandstanding
1200
1201Moral grandstanding is differentiated from moral talk in that part of the motive of the grandstander is vanity. Moral talk in general is distinguished from venting/ranting in that the latter may not include any claim of morality (goodness/wrongness etc.) but may simply be about annoyances where the speaker makes no moral claim.
1202
1203Moral Grandstanding
1204
1205I searched for the author - it also seemed like from the blog post it was part of a larger work which set me on the trail.
1206
1207Moral Grandstanding
1208
1209Glad you enjoyed
1210
1211How does this sub feel about ... (the answer will SHOCK you)
1212
1213Try this 1 old weird trick TLP uses to keep up with guys half his age...
1214
1215Decent opportunity to watch NPD in facial expressions and dialectic
1216
1217So in the old days a psychoanalyst might say to one of your pictured narcissists as a naming interpretation "You want to control me - to make validate your feelings about your gender." This interprets their underlying motivation as hostility, from which they would hide and feel guilty - the projection is then to say the other person is being mean and making you have these feelings.
1218
1219An analyst working in the modern era who understands the superego and shame might say: "You feel ashamed of wanting my validation - and that I wouldn't take your need seriously - so you are blaming me for not giving it to you." You could then say "Why would you do this blaming of me? I think you want me to feel ashamed, like you do now, so that ultimately you can feel more connected to me and understood."
1220
1221Of course, all of the above might just shame the person, particularly if it makes them feel too exposed, which is generally why analysts interpret defenses instead of interpreting the ego, for many years, until people are strong enough to take it. Or the analyst may feel too exposed.
1222
1223Which is to say that people want to, need to, and have to hide from each other and that denial and repression are part of this.
1224
1225Or not - your mileage may vary. How much shame should a person own, all things considered, would you say?
1226
1227Decent opportunity to watch NPD in facial expressions and dialectic
1228
1229I don't think you can tell this much specifics from facial expressions and found your aside about certain politicians and media figures to be poorly supported - not withstanding the work of Paul Eckman. It's easy to use belief in microexpressions to validate one's own sense of mindreading. That aside - I liked one of your points a lot which is at the heart of the issue - I paraphrase to generalize:
1230
1231"We think our problems will not exist if they are ignored by other people."
1232
1233Which reflects our desire for other people to see us the way we want see ourselves. Unfortunately we usually want others to lie about how they see us so that we can ignore we are lying about how we see ourselves.
1234
1235This is why the transgender issue will not go away. I don't believe she is a man and I am deeply skeptical anyone else does either. And even if they pay lip service to this what does it mean to believe someone is a man, other than to project upon them, or conspire with their signaling a need for mirroring their narcissism back at them?
1236
1237Our projections do not make reality. They are intended to distort it in service of our ego. The problem underneath, the worm at the core, is that being a man or a woman doesn't mean very much at all existentially, and these problems persist because we want them to mean much more than they do.
1238
1239I believe it was Adam Phillips who said: "It's a shame their are only two sexes since we want them to mean so very much."
1240
1241"Is psychiatry a religion?" - Journal of Medicine - What do y'all think of this?
1242
1243Is a more honest way to phrase it as "Whatever?"
1244
1245"Is psychiatry a religion?" - Journal of Medicine - What do y'all think of this?
1246
1247In a sense, yes. Becker has a good section on this in Denial of Death. It's a topic which has been worked over by the anti-psychiatry movement as well. The problematic thing about talking in these kinds of metaphors is dealing with what do you think a religion is?
1248
1249Deconstructing Jordan Peterson
1250
1251I don't see your point. Are you saying that he is immature for sharing this tweet - which appears to have been made by someone else? Are you saying something more than "I think he is over reacting?"
1252
1253Deconstructing Jordan Peterson
1254
1255I was a younger man - I'm a square these days.
1256
1257Deconstructing Jordan Peterson
1258
1259Got it - I meant my statement to apply to most people - but not all. I'm prone to agree with your diagnosis of the SJW phenomena and most sub-cultures since the hippie days. I personally am a gracefully aging 2nd wave punk rocker who learned a lot from being drawn to and then turning away from such things in the 90's.
1260
1261Deconstructing Jordan Peterson
1262
1263I like Jordan Peterson and thinks he has good advice. I don't know enough about Jung to provide deep criticisms. But I think it is always best to start relatively close to the surface (i.e. practical advice) rather than delving into depth psychology - which takes a long time and might make you worse before you get better.
1264
1265JP to me seems like a clearly mature person - which is very important for young men in selecting role models. He's not just acting out defenses and intellectualism. He demonstrates how to constructively take criticism and abuse without reciprocating or escalating which is very important these days.
1266
1267The one thing I've heard is that he is soft on corporal punishment (i.e. go ahead and spank your kids). I'd have to consider his reasoning at length and this may just be hearsay. In general I don't think you should hit children for things you wouldn't hit an adult for and in general should not dominate children.
1268
1269Deconstructing Jordan Peterson
1270
1271Which statement are you referring to?
1272
1273Deconstructing Jordan Peterson
1274
1275Haha - I wish I had enough confidence in humanity to believe people could pull off conspiracies to the extent many think.
1276
1277February 2018 Miscellaneous Thread
1278
1279The short version of my position is that sexual attraction is primarily psychological - and should not be swept up in narratives of "evolutionary" explanation. This is an area that would probably take therapy to explore in depth, so I'll leave it.
1280
1281Another way to look at the issue is that everyone is anxious. Ordinarily people are either in denial about it and convince themselves they don't want things bounded by their anxiety, or they are ashamed of being anxious. The best way to address anxiety is to do things which would make you more comfortable.
1282
1283I just got off an elevator. It's always a little tense in elevators. I noticed the guy on the elevator had a shopping bag. I said "Do a little shopping during lunch, eh?" He said "Yeah, it's nice to just be able to call up and pick up a gift." I said "Oh yeah, that automatic giftwrapping - that's good cuz I can't wrap a present to save my life."
1284
1285The reason I said these things was so that I wold feel more comfortable. The next time I see this guy I might say "How'd the gift go over?"
1286
1287One reason people make friends is so that they feel less anxious around strangers - no shame in that.
1288
1289So in this way of looking at it the problem is not "reaction seeking" the problem is shame about reaction seeking.
1290
1291It does make sense you have no sense of self. Our sense of self is made up of our relationship to other people. Build more relationships, have more sense of self.
1292
1293February 2018 Miscellaneous Thread
1294
1295I have to go back to the beginning. If you believe girls won't like you then why do you like girls? I wouldn't like someone who I believed wouldn't like me, is what I'm trying to say.
1296
1297You said you felt like you were being overbearing or push to say Hi in two circumstances. I took this to mean that you didn't feel entitled to just say hello to someone for your own reasons, like without some external justification. I'm just saying most people don't actually feel so self important that they think others have no right to say hello.
1298
1299What might make you feel more entitled to do what you want?
1300
1301Deconstructing Jordan Peterson
1302
1303Yes, the ideas are linked. People who present themselves as "victims" are in denial of their existential freedom, and are generally in denial of how much they are constantly goading/prodding/bothering the people they claim are persecuting them. This is different than people who are being purposefully scapegoated by others.
1304
1305They are afraid to face shame, hostility and their own hypocrisy. Here is an example -global warming: Notice first of all your emotional reaction to this topic and any thoughts it makes you have about me and what I might believe about the issue, what it means about my politics, what it means about loyalty and disloyalty and whether you think I'm an honest and good person.
1306
1307Global warming is not a fact. It's not the category of thing which could be called a fact. There ARE facts about global warming - such as (I'm making this up) a report issued by NOAA states that global ocean surface temperatures are rising, etc. The existence of the report is a fact. Truth is a different category. What best EXPLAINS the existence of this fact: A motivated conspiracy? Massive idealistic self delusion? Or the truth of a theory about carbon in the atmosphere. All this is neither here nor there if someone is willing to say I don't care if the facts mean the world is warming, I'm still buying an SUV and you can fuck right off with your judgement. or something like that. This is usually a good response since most people concerned about global warming still own cars (just smaller), fly on airplanes, use air conditioning and a host of other things. Congratulations asshole, I use 12 barrles of oil a year and you use 9. Ascend to the right hand of god.
1308
1309I happen to believe in global warming. What I don't believe is that we're going to do anything about it. And I also believe that few people actually care enough to stop participating lustfully in the fossil fuel economy. They generally just want to dominate, judge and control each other and avoid guilt and shame in the eyes of others.
1310
1311I don't think the author is a bad guy, or a narcissist. I just think he hasn't demonstrated accurate knowledge in order to make his opinions something larger than they are.
1312February 2018 Miscellaneous Thread
1313
1314Why would you like someone who you believe won't like you - I presume no matter what you do or say. Do you really like someone who you believe wouldn't like you? Why do you think anybody likes anybody else?
1315
1316The historical answer for this would be that you are projecting your sense of self-loathing onto others (keep in mind this is perfectly natural for people to do - not just something I'm accusing you of, I do it too.).
1317
1318While I don't recommend the whole book, Jordan Peterson has two bits of wisdom: Instead of "loving yourself" treat yourself like someone who you are responsible for taking care of. An additional point, instead of comparing yourself with an imaginary theory of who you could be or who you want to be compare yourself with who you were yesterday. This allows every day to be one on the right path.
1319
1320People are vain. I'm vain - you're vain - girls are vain. I don't know you, but I do know dating. Some girls won't like you because of the way you look, dress, act or what social class you are from. They do this for their own vanity - i.e. in service of their ego. We all do this to some extent. Your options are to comply with the often arbitrary demands of vanity (get a haircut and get a real job) or to give up vanity and focus on finding someone who likes you the way you are.
1321
1322In general you are being over deferential - which throughout most of history has been the way people were expected to behave. What entitled them to "go say hi" was a social rule which had to be orchestrated.
1323
1324When you approach someone from a place of "I'm not entitled to talk to you" you are doing projective identification because most people don't feel too important to be talked to. So you are putting the existential meaning of your action upon them. What they are rejecting is the fact that they don't feel like the hot holy center of the universe most usually - and very rarely are they actually being purposefully sadistics - abusing the unearned power you are giving them.
1325
1326Deconstructing Jordan Peterson
1327
1328The fewer words you have begun to use, the more I see your powers blossom!
1329
1330Deconstructing Jordan Peterson
1331
1332The biggest mistake in this conclusion is that post-modern philosophy does not necessarily lead to cultural-marxism. This is not the case for Richard Rority, neither is it the case for me.
1333
1334You might say "All cultural marxists are postmodernists" but it's not true that "all post-modernists are cultural marxists."
1335
1336Deconstructing Jordan Peterson
1337
1338This article is really bad, sorry. Richard Rority, for starters - is not exemplary of post-modernism. He is a self described "Romantic Bourgeouis Liberal" who has more in common with Edmund Burke than he does with Thomas Paine. That should be enough to label this as "worthless" to readers of this site, but if you need more:
1339
1340The article contains (1) a long discussion of Richard Rority, who by the authors own admission he does not understand. Little effort is made to evaluate Roritiy's politics in general beyond some relevant selections about his predictions (vs recommendations) for the future. The intention of inserting Rority is to rhetorically make the point "not all post-modernists" and also to blur the lines between the fact value distinction. which is really at the crux of this articles problem and with most peoples brains when it comes to life.
1341
1342(2) The author goes on to make a decent point that the conservative reaction to Cultural Marxism makes many of the same mistakes as the latter, namely blaming mysterious metaphysical powers/cabals of conspirators for their problems as opposed to the more factual description that times are changing - and a personal ownership of values. The fact/value distinction has a problem with Truth vs truth - in that facts don't MEAN anything in the absence of whether people CARE about them.
1343
1344(3) The article identifies problems with those who apply Nietzsche. People do have problems with Nietzsche because they are afraid. What Nietzsche missed is how hard it is to fight for power directly - and how much people rely on emotional manipulation in order to achieve power He underestimated how much the Christian ethic of the Victim has permeated Western Civilization. In my estimation this will be its ultimate downfall.
1345
1346Denial and avoidance of responsibility are the very core of the human experience.
1347
1348(4) The author makes a sloppy transition to claim that the American right is more illustrative of the behavior of "making one's own truth and rejecting universal values." There are facts, and people either VALUE or DEVALUE these facts. There are no universal values - this is a fact, a description of reality - in my reading of Nietzsche.
1349
1350People ignore facts when they are too cowardly to acknowledge that they don't care about what YOU think the facts MEAN.
1351
1352The author continues onward to a poor application of Baudrillard. If you really want to go down the rabbit hole - *The authors article is a simulacrum of a high-concept blog which calls on philosophy, psychology and criticial theory to appear as if he is saying something more profound than "I DON'T LIKE XYZ." This might seem to harsh but keep in mind I think it is very difficult to do more in life than say "I like/don't like xyz." In fact that is the crux of the argument - *are we really doing anything other than that? Why would one care either way?
1353
1354In conclusion I like Jordan Peterson. However, I also have no problem with postmodernism and think is has important knowledge to offer. I can't beat this enough that you can't talk about truth without talking about the fact/value distinction and shame. i.e. we all have facts we don't care about and are ashamed to own our values.
1355
1356Narcissism connoisseurs, disciples of the self: I would like own distilled version of TLP's take on narcissism
1357
1358In seriousnless though, I recommend the following book as the best survey of the history of the concept of narcissism accessible to those who do not want to study graduate level psychoanalysis - The Selfishness of Others - An Essay on the Fear of Narcissism.
1359
1360https://www.amazon.com/Selfishness-Others-Essay-Fear-Narcissism/dp/0865478236
1361
1362The problem with the narcissism discourse is that everyone is narcissistic. The fear or obsession with the narcissism of others is connected with the denial of one's own narcissism. The reason this is a problem is what Freud called the return of the repressed. What this means is that if you don't acknowledge the presence of something in yourself (e.g. narcissism) you will repress it and it will return in an exaggerated, over the top way.
1363
1364The result of repression (based on shame) is symptomatic over-expression.
1365
1366However, TLP could never fully square this circle and ended in a mood of often melancholy acceptance, with the admonition to commit to practical action in the face of these contradictions. Your mileage may vary.
1367
1368Narcissism connoisseurs, disciples of the self: I would like own distilled version of TLP's take on narcissism
1369
1370Stop thinking about other people and start thinking about other people.
1371
1372Learned Helplessness
1373
1374Yes. This is largely what the "anal" period of child development is about - as bodily functions come into contact withe the awareness of the developing ego. The orgasm does indeed often disrupt the continuation of ego signification in psycho-sexual problems. See the work of Apfelbaum.
1375
1376I would add this is complicated because ones external world is mapped in the nervous system and experienced physically in the body - but this is a later development, one which gets filtered through the adult ego when things go well - or is experienced as mental health problems for one who experiences problems along the way.
1377
1378The big O can mean closeness, triumph, failure - all sorts of things.
1379
1380Learned Helplessness
1381
1382It's a bodily function. What it signifies is a psychological function.
1383
1384What does it mean to be an adult ?
1385
1386Bingo. Peasants may not be radically free - but they get to enjoy the pleasures of being a peasant and also enjoy the resentments of their common class without doubt. They need not feel burdened by the belief that they should have been a Noble had they really applied themselves. They may be unduly deferential and genuflecting, but the upside is that (a) radical freedom wouldn't make much difference anyway, and (b) they get to project a lot onto the King.
1387
1388What does it mean to be an adult ?
1389
1390The "devil's choice" means two alternatives that both seem bad. Damned if you do damned if you don't...
1391
1392One reason people seem "narcissistic" or immature is that these days they seem to hang on to self-esteem driven goals well into adulthood. Pursuit of the goal "I have to live the most amazing life possible" is clearly going to run into troubles of narcissism. However, setting aside this goal takes some admission of mortality and limitations. How can one accept limitations without resentment?
1393
1394Adler thinks the answer is to view the tasks of life (friends, work, family) as being a responsibility - not motivated by desire but by a sense of responsibility. In other words you get your significance by willingly throwing yourself into culture.
1395
1396This is very problematic in a time when the culture is to deny culture - i.e. the cultural norm is to view things as choices based on selfhood rather than metaphysical responsibilities.
1397
1398What does it mean to be an adult ?
1399
1400Yep - the upside of life being meaningless is that life is meaningless.
1401
1402What does it mean to be an adult ?
1403
1404Adulthood is "eating your cake." Adolescence is "having your cake." People who are struggling with ambivalence either have too little courage or too much narcissism to stop "having your cake and eating it, too."
1405
1406In other words it is largely about foreclosing some possibilities and instead enjoy the satisfactions, and accept the suffering, associated with real commitments - ones which can't be undone.
1407
1408This always sounds censorious, of course, because it is. And there is some real loss to cope with.
1409
1410How do you balance the realities of radical freedom and inevitable death and decay? It was easier when we weren't free - then we didn't have to accept responsibility for the devils choice between "giving up on our goals of highest possible achievement" on the one hand and "narcissism" on the other.
1411
1412Adler's solution was to throw oneself willingly into the illusions of culture. I.E. embrace a job and family as if it is your metaphysical responsibility as a human...which works, but of course is also absurdly delusional.
1413
1414Unfortunately it looks to me like one of the most important things for healthy psychology is to avoid responsibility and pass off some of the burdens of freedom onto the outside world. This is how we feel part of something larger than ourselves. But it is ultimately absurd.
1415
1416"The Enigma of Reason" is an interesting read.
1417
1418Leave it to cognitive science to tell us things that psychoanalysis has known for 100 years and has been suppressed by denial and technological narcissism.
1419
1420February 2018 Miscellaneous Thread
1421
1422Oh, well that one is easy. Embrace the values of those men who are valued by the women he claims to care about.
1423
1424There is plenty of obvious advice out there in the world, which generally requires seeing someone in person - from "stand up straight" to "you have bad breath." But this is the deep end of the internet here.
1425
1426Learned Helplessness
1427
1428Yeah, I seem to recall we took a few laps on hypnosis and NLP over the years. I mainly encountered Erickson through Bandler and hypnosis through, oddly enough, an interest in stage magic.
1429
1430I think the implications of transference and motivational factors make it exceedingly difficult to even talk about hypnosis intelligibly so I will say no more.
1431
1432Learned Helplessness
1433
1434I'd agree with that. My view on hypnosis is that it is effective because many/most/all (take your pick) of us have a deep longing to avoid freedom and submit.
1435
1436Learned Helplessness
1437
1438I doubt they could on purpose in full consciousness of the process. But this is what explains everything from imaginary friends, transitional objects, and is also related to various paraphelias and obsessions.
1439
1440Learned Helplessness
1441
1442Because that which makes things seem metaphysical is an inter-psychic material phenomenon created by the representation of external objects internally, as maintained by transference.
1443
1444Another way to say this is that significance is an emotional relationship between a subject and an object, not something which exists in the lack of a subject. A wedding ring is significant to someone. A ring forgotten on the bottom of the sea is not. So a better way to speak would be that a ring gets it's significane from someone - but the illusion is that the feeling comes from the ring itself. How silly would it be to say: Honey, you mean the world from me!
1445
1446This is ordinary until the persistant illusions of transference can be worked through and you can see "whole objects" or you can see "the thing itself" separate from past projections of transference. People talk about authentic or object-love at this stage of development but to get there you have to give up a great deal, which is why freedom is frightening. Because your past network of meanings have to collapse to be freed from the past.
1447
1448Learned Helplessness
1449
1450Another way to come out from this space is to accept that what we care about as individuals is exactly as important as anything anyone has ever cared about.
1451
1452Learned Helplessness
1453
1454Freedom is such an enormous burden because significance is an illusion, the loss of which leaves one alone and terrified.
1455
1456Last man - Wikipedia: "The last men are tired of life, take no risks, and seek only comfort and security."
1457
1458You could say libido is the "warm fuzzies" at it's most basic level. It's the awareness of bodily fullness and expansiveness sensed in the nervous system.
1459
1460February 2018 Miscellaneous Thread
1461
1462Another way to say this is the classic Kleinien depressive position: If this theory is true, the OP is using projective identification: He is projecting his self esteem into someone else (his representation of the girl), so that he can receive it back - mixed in some way with their coping strategy - and identify with this response without realizing it's an entirely internal phenomena. Depending on his response this is either the girls kindness, or her narcissism with which he is identifying. If he has strong negative feelings towards them it is their narcissism, if he maintains loving idealization it's probably their kindness.
1463
1464Last man - Wikipedia: "The last men are tired of life, take no risks, and seek only comfort and security."
1465
1466You bet! Thanks for your dilligence. It's one of those issues that I think I'd have to invest so much time in to understand that I admit I can be dismissive of. Found another good article from skeptic, too: https://www.skeptic.com/reading_room/artificial-intelligence-gone-awry/
1467
1468This at least help me understand I'm mainly speaking about robotics more so than some other branches.
1469
1470Last man - Wikipedia: "The last men are tired of life, take no risks, and seek only comfort and security."
1471
1472While there are some interesting ideas here I think there are enough real and present problems which will almost assuredly will destroy us I have to leave this on my "not concerned" list. I remained much more concerned about the diminishing marginal returns of tech than I am about the potential for exponential threats - especially given the largely failed 50 year history of AI research.
1473
1474Is this post ironically narcissistic?
1475
1476I'm just trying to discover the truth of the two options:
1477
1478So the first part I'd characterize as "reactivity" which does exist as a motivation - but it is still fused to culture even if apparently opposed to it.
1479
1480I don't understand the second part. I'm not saying what one should do - I'm saying that the alternatives are limited and that apparent novel solutions ultimately return to the same two alternatives.
1481
1482Is this post ironically narcissistic?
1483
1484Yes - but part of what I'm trying to get at is that you would do so (create your own illusions) for some reason or from some motivation. And in my original set of options I feel I have given the two alternatives - with the exception of narcissism which I think also refers back to the Other/culture in order to avoid despair.
1485
1486Last man - Wikipedia: "The last men are tired of life, take no risks, and seek only comfort and security."
1487
1488Generally I hope you're right but unfortunately believe your rejoinders are flawed. People have more faith in technology which has not been invented than they ever had in God.
1489
1490Most technology uses energy, rather than provides access to net energy or increases in efficiency. And all technology represents reliance on increased levels of complexity, which tends to lead to collapse (Tainter, Collapse of Complex Societies).
1491
1492We can grow new trees on tree farms so long as we're looking at the planet as a resource to despoil only for our use. And tree usage has reduced since we have not increased our use of biomass for heating - instead we burn coal, oil and natural gas. But tree farms don't make the same natural habitat for other biomass which is going extinct at an alarming rate.
1493
1494Solving the "food issue" simply creates a "population issue." We have degraded and eroded our topsoil (https://www.amazon.com/Topsoil-Civilization-Vernon-Gill-Carter/dp/0806111070) , killed off innumerable beneficial insects, and developed a reliance on chemical fertilizers which are produced by the combustion of natural gas, a resource base which is degrading in quality.
1495
1496There is plenty of oil, but it is increasingly hard to access and expensive to refine - meaning it is only economically viable at very high prices or very low interest rates - prices which will collapse the economy - and interest rates which, well...here we are.
1497
1498Is this post ironically narcissistic?
1499
1500What reason?
1501
1502February 2018 Miscellaneous Thread
1503
1504Which question do you mean - "...why I equate their ability to choose with their willingness to reject me..."?
1505
1506I'd like to hear him answer that question. But if I had to venture a highly educated guess it would be that he is trying to hide something from himself by psychologically displacing it into his representation of other people.
1507
1508Last man - Wikipedia: "The last men are tired of life, take no risks, and seek only comfort and security."
1509
1510The impact of advanced software in general is different than whether AI is possible. In your final paragraph we begin to drift apart in what we're each referring to as intelligence. Certainly advanced computing will continue to replace jobs - but a fear on the order of an "AI" becoming sentient and deciding to Nuke humanity seems to me to stand strongly as theoretically impossible and an absurd thing to worry about.
1511
1512Is this post ironically narcissistic?
1513
1514Mainly because most people don't feel entitled to do so without appeal to some 3rd party authority, due in large part to the function of the superego as it represents the internalization of culture.
1515
1516Is this post ironically narcissistic?
1517
1518The question of "what obligation if any does one person have to take into account possible impacts on others" can be viewed as (a) a question about culture, (b) a question about authenticity, or (c) a question about the "personality trait" of agreeableness.
1519
1520Said another way - when you fully embrace the insights of psychoanalysis you will realize that relationships are profoundly different than the everyday way we think and talk about them. After a period of struggle with the knowledge it can leave you with a sense of peace or perhaps moderation.
1521
1522I've enjoyed Mark's writing in the past. He has undertaken his own long term depth therapy. He does not, however, understand the super-ego, and misses a great deal about the unconscious in his advice. He is wrapped up in the illusion of authenticity.
1523
1524That's forgivable in my mind because one's choices are to submit to culture and engage in illusions, or to stand outside of culture and experience despair. His illusions are helpful ones.
1525
1526Eric Berne and Claude Steiner, along with Heidegger, would say we never leave a transnational approach except for brief moments of intimacy.
1527
1528All that said I can recommend Mark to the general reading public.
1529
1530Last man - Wikipedia: "The last men are tired of life, take no risks, and seek only comfort and security."
1531
1532I do not. Solar energy has many problems. See the work of Euan Mearns (http://euanmearns.com/) or Gail Tverberg (https://ourfiniteworld.com/)
1533
1534The net energy of extra-terrestrial resource gathering seems impossibly unlikely because you have to subtract all the energy and resources used to acquire whatever you are gathering.
1535
1536A simple way to understand this is that while a lion can eat a mouse it cannot switch to a diet of mice. This is because the calories expended to catch a mouse is more than the calories obtained from eating the mouse.
1537
1538Last man - Wikipedia: "The last men are tired of life, take no risks, and seek only comfort and security."
1539
1540The key argument is that computers cannot "promise," a form of linguistic speech acts. See Serle's How To Do Things With Words or Ayer related to the larger question of "what is communication?" This of course is related to whether computers can care, or have motivations, and as a result model or represent the motivations of others and rightfully be called a mind.
1541
1542All that said "AI" will obviously continue and achieve some interesting things so long as the economy holds together.
1543
1544It's a good thing we have social justice hysteria because...
1545
1546...What he said!...
1547
1548Last man - Wikipedia: "The last men are tired of life, take no risks, and seek only comfort and security."
1549
1550I guess it would be appreciating the full story - like loving someone without ignoring the fact the they will someday die, or that you yourself will have to go - take it easy on the things we do to ignore this, and double down on the things we would do nevertheless.
1551
1552How much will an argument about how to load the dishwasher matter in this context? And nevertheless it's so hard not to fight about...
1553
1554It's a good thing we have social justice hysteria because...
1555
1556It's double plus good that we have {not bad} because I say so.
1557
1558Last man - Wikipedia: "The last men are tired of life, take no risks, and seek only comfort and security."
1559
1560It's largely about the "fact/value" distinction. It's surprisingly hard to describe without characterizing, given that we care about what we're looking at.
1561
1562So this is part of Feud's "Primary Process" whereby the human makes an internal representation of an external concept, which is also "fused" with libido. In other word we represent, and care, about the external world internally.
1563
1564These internal representations can be shared to correspond and be recognized by others who share the same. This is a "meme" and it is also why things seem "metaphysical" even though I maintain they are material.
1565
1566Everyone knows we distort reality - what's not so obvious is that we do it in service of the ego to avoid feelings of insignificance and the fear of death.
1567
1568February 2018 Miscellaneous Thread
1569
1570Of course girls will date you - no matter what. They may not be the girls you want, which is where I suggest you invest your time. It's not that they reject you it may be that they are choosing other guys. What do you think about these others you imagine?
1571
1572It may be that the girls who would choose you make you feel insignificant. Would you date someone who weighs 600 pounds, is disabled and hordes cats?
1573
1574Last man - Wikipedia: "The last men are tired of life, take no risks, and seek only comfort and security."
1575
1576I think artificial intelligence is a fantasy and have never worried about it. See "Understanding Computers and Cognition" by Fernando Flores for my position.
1577
1578I think the economy runs on energy and resources, and you can't have infinite growth on a finite planet. Our extraordinary post WWII period of peace is based on 2 things: An ever expanding gloabal economy and mutually assured destruction. Take away the first part and you're left with the second.
1579
1580I think we'll have an economic disaster follwed by problems with resources (energy, water and food) and then who knows.
1581
1582Last man - Wikipedia: "The last men are tired of life, take no risks, and seek only comfort and security."
1583
1584I was inferring from the OP, not my idea. My "long answer" would be that western civilization does not exist, nor has it ever, except as an institutional fact or a meme if you must...and would be very long.
1585
1586My short answer is that western civilization refers to emotional attachment to white-anglo-saxon-protestant-capitalist-post-enlightenment-pre-post-modern cultural centrality.
1587
1588Last man - Wikipedia: "The last men are tired of life, take no risks, and seek only comfort and security."
1589
1590A double answer - I think the will to truth can lead to nihilism. But I don't think belief in progress is comparable to the will to truth.
1591
1592The belief in progress specifically is that history is on an upward trend from here to the stars with man at the center of it - that the future will be an easier one full of more and better products. Man - the conqueror of nature shall bestride the stars.
1593
1594It's a good thing we have social justice hysteria because...
1595
1596It's a good thing we have Emmanuel Goldstein and the Resistance, otherwise the Party and Big Brother would have us in a real pickle. Someday the Resistance will grow to a point that future generations will be free to act, in ways I of course am not.
1597
1598....Because then squares would have to go back to hating hippies, and admit in doing so that we ourselves were "the man?"
1599
1600...It's a good thing we have social justice warriors otherwise I'd have trouble accounting for these nagging feelings of insignificance and couldn't find someone to look down on in compensatory self aggrandizement...
1601
1602...It's a good thing we have social justice warriors otherwise I wouldn't have an explanation for why life isn't better and all my suggestions for solving the worlds problems don't produce any results...
1603
1604The "shadow government" is a typing pool, more similar to the waiting room in Betelgeuse than a board meeting of the Vampyre Families.
1605
1606...It's a good thing the shadow government exists, otherwise I'd realize that everything is explainable by ordinary incompentence and my wishful longings for liberation are self-serving fantasies or moral righteousness and projections of malice and awe onto a cabal of imaginary secret masters - free mason pedophile necromancer lizards who have traversed time and space through vile blood magic to account for my feelings of slavery and impotence...
1607
1608February 2018 Miscellaneous Thread
1609
1610You may also like an article I wrote on a related subject: http://theblondbeast.com/tag/hotel-concierge/
1611
1612Last man - Wikipedia: "The last men are tired of life, take no risks, and seek only comfort and security."
1613
1614I think political activities are secondary. The end of meaningful growth and progress are at hand and I think it will all unwind. The biggest blow will be to people's faith in "progress" as a religious substitute. Personally I think the world is sleepwalking into a nightmare that can only be explained by psychoanalysis and the basic repression of the fear of death, and all those things we do to avoid it.
1615
1616Last man - Wikipedia: "The last men are tired of life, take no risks, and seek only comfort and security."
1617
1618Sadly, go forth and die in whatever manner you deem appropriate.
1619
1620In all seriousness, amidst the death of culture, or contemplating one's own death I think it is important to ask Why do you care that western civilization is over? However you answer this question - go forth and appreciate these things more fully.
1621
1622Civilizations rise and fall. While it can be very frightening to contemplate these things, you have come to the deep end of the internet for answers and have stumbled upon the last oracles of existential despair.
1623
1624I believe human beings are not viable for continued existence past the end of the century. On good days it helps to remember the art of wabi-sabi: Nothing is finished, nothing is perfect, and nothing lasts.
1625
1626Anything besides stoic appreciation is probably a manic defense against fear and insignificance. Nevertheless if life is without external meaning, then the meaning of your life is exactly as important as any other - go live as if the things you care about are as important as the existence of being itself.
1627
1628February 2018 Miscellaneous Thread
1629
1630Sure - so the "PUA" narrative is often sold with the idea that it's a problem to romantically idealize a potential partner. My opinion is that many who entered this line of thinking switched this behavior to imagining an idealized self.
1631
1632Yes, your quote is excellent. What PUA's are blind to is that people in general like you for their own reasons, it has nothing to do with you and can never "touch" your core - it's only another object to hang a transference on.
1633
1634Sorry if that's jargon laden. Another way to say it is that ordinarily Person A wants person B to like him because of what it means to person A. Unfortunately, person B only ever likes person A because of what it means to person B.
1635
1636This should be obvious, because it's fundamental, but it is the hardest thing to hold onto in the world. Girls don't like you because of who you are. They like you because of what you mean to them. The requisite of a mature person is to realize this and let them have it without being invalidated by doing so - and perhaps to still hold on to the equal importance of your meanings - best kept to something larger than the relationship. A tall order.
1637
1638February 2018 Miscellaneous Thread
1639
1640Just don't substitute "oneitis" for her, for "oneitis" for yourself. i.e. your sexual adventures don't define you any more than a relationship with a magical special someone. I met many of the greats in the industry and this problem lead to their well documented existential crisis. They basically swapped their causa sui projects like indiana jones switching sand for treasure - only to pickup more sand. Now, they have largely substituted this project for old fashioned moralities and political ends - which is probably better, but will most likely end in violence.
1641
1642February 2018 Miscellaneous Thread
1643
1644There is a good part on this in Denial of Death - it starts with letting go of the narcissistic body project. Covers menopausal depression, middle age and mid-life crisis. Basically it's better to realize your body will betray your ego sooner rather than later, embrace this as an experience common to all humans, and try to find some solidarity in this fact.
1645
1646February 2018 Miscellaneous Thread
1647
1648Thanks for doing that - I downloaded them before his death and hoard them!
1649
1650Looking for the TLP article where he links/references Freud's "Creative Writers and Day-Dreaming"
1651
1652If you're interested in the subject you may like Otto Rank on Art and the Artist, or Edmund Bergler on Writer's Block. I don't know about the TLP article - but thought Freud was off on the issue of creativity.
1653
16545,000 years of debt? Aufheben's critical review of David Graeber's book.
1655
1656Banks did fail, and continue to fail all the time: https://www.fdic.gov/bank/individual/failed/banklist.html
1657
1658To say their is no risk isn't true. I don't understand what you mean when you say:
1659
1660this means that everyone elses debts get watered down in value at that point, but increased in the future.
1661
1662Debts can be paid as long as prosperity is increasing - which it isn't. That's the condition for the possibility of the existence of the debt economy. A good recent quote from an article I read this morning summarizes exactly why debt fails based on the underlying economy in my view:
1663
1664"To understand this, we need to recognize that debt only works when prosperity is growing. For A to borrow from B today, and at a future date repay both capital and interest, A?s income must have increased over that period. Without that growth, debt cannot be repaid." https://surplusenergyeconomics.wordpress.com/
1665
1666I think the breaking point of debt growth will come before the income streams can't be repaid. It will come when it is obvious to creditors that the debt will not be repaid - which is an issue of confidence, rather than mathematics or physics.
1667
1668Now, I happen to believe this is already obvious - and unfortunately from an investment standpoint have underestimated the credulity of others, or perhaps am wrong about all of the above!
1669
16705,000 years of debt? Aufheben's critical review of David Graeber's book.
1671
1672Until 2008 they were generally "accepting risk" in return for lending money. Since at least the bailouts it's been clear that you are correct in that all counterparty risk has been shifted onto the citizenry - or onto world markets depending on how you look at it.
1673
1674The economy can grow so long as there are the energy and resources available to support its growth.
1675
1676My perspective is well captured by Tim Morgan: https://ftalphaville-cdn.ft.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Perfect-Storm-LR.pdf
1677
1678Where to Start?
1679
1680Life is short and books are very long. Sadly, I recommend reading "Readers" collections of select work. Also, watch this: http://rickroderick.org/
1681
1682In particular - the Self Under Siege.
1683
16845,000 years of debt? Aufheben's critical review of David Graeber's book.
1685
1686I enjoyed Debt and have cited it many times. I think Graeber's "diagnosis" is stronger than his "recommended treatment" as is my feeling about most radical politics.
1687
1688I found the review a bit hard to follow. I often have this problem with marxist and libertarian (let alone Aufheben the Libertarian-Marxist) as they often slide between normative and objective descriptions - i.e. explaining vs. moralizing.
1689
1690I'd still recommend Debt - and anyone who is interested in the moral argument, The Immorality of Promising.
1691
1692I've said before that the victim/victimizer - debtor/creditor - master/slave perception is one of the fundamental ontological experiences of being human - but it is of course a distortion designed to reduce anxiety.
1693
1694note to self
1695
1696Thank you for this.
1697
1698Twitter Discussion of TLP
1699
1700What is problematic is this:
1701
1702To a narcissist, whose self image is a mask he tries to convince others is true, love is impossible because the other person is in love with the mask, not the authentic self
1703
1704To some extent all of us try to get people to buy into our persona. The alternative is to try to be authentic, and realize that other people are usually trying to ignore, bypass,coopt or avoid you in service of their ego - which is why, ultimately, we do it.
1705
1706The difference between the ordinary version and the "narcissistic" version is that the narcissist can't admit we're all doing this to some degree and defends against the absurdity of this position with a death grip.
1707
1708What do I do about a weak self?
1709
1710Love to hear what you come up with. For me I tend to think of the little things in life, and how ordinarily I discount these and tend to feel like a worthwhile life has to be - well, grandiose.
1711
1712The tide is turning: even Slate magazine is outraged about the phony outrage about 'Lady Doritos'
1713
1714I think so. Basically I think some people cultivate an anti-entitlement persona to increase superiority feelings. They then go around telling people, like children, that they are not entitled to things which the others feel entitled - creating confusion of the superego.
1715
1716"reverse narcissism" as a form of asceticism. The key is they are giving up something solubrious and ordinary - entitlement to the ordinary enjoyments of ones culture.
1717
1718Other psychiatry blogs?
1719
1720Glad you enjoyed! It's an awesome series for those with an interest in the subject!
1721
1722Deep Fake Thoughts
1723
1724I'm not sure about intimacy. I think celebrities have an obvious place of apparent undue significance. A taboo gesture of tearing down significance is obvious, as would be the desire of celebrities and anxious others to shore up significance. A shared sense of significance is what helps culture serve to hold back anxiety and chaos - which is also why the perversions have always been an impotent attempt at rebellion.
1725
1726When you think about it after all - resenting Emma Watson and imagining her defiled is a pretty pathetic acting out of powerlessness.
1727
1728It's all very individual however. Your take certainly applies to many individuals simply seeking to escape reality in a fantasy - as people throughout time have all always needed.
1729
1730What do I do about a weak self?
1731
1732Thanks for sharing - I've had a lot of these concerns myself and I don't have much to offer over the internet. I would not pretend these issues are easy.
1733
1734The solution I mentioned is the short road. The long road is of course embracing some existential bitter pills and working through them. For instance - it doesn't matter what you do. Whatever you choose to do with your life won't really matter to anyone else but you, and certainly not in the way it matters to you. There is no guarantee that even the best of accomplishments will do any good in the long run- I think here of Norman Borlaug and the Green Revolution which fed billions, only to overpopulate the planet. (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0307961699/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER)
1735
1736One way you can find what really matters to you is to deeply contemplate the question why do I care that my life is empty and meaningless and I will someday die?
1737
1738I think you'll find that "guiding priciples" are much more about culture than focusing on "what do I care about?"
1739
1740The hard part about this is it takes some maturity to admit that a lot of what we care about is hard to swallow - which is where shame enters the picture. It helps to understand how other peoples anxieties and fears propel much of their behavior - this includes the "narcissism" epidemic.
1741
1742The tide is turning: even Slate magazine is outraged about the phony outrage about 'Lady Doritos'
1743
1744Yep, human - all to human! The most common way we maintain our self-esteem is by finding someone to look down on. One important question is: What prevents someone from feeling entitled to do this consciously?
1745
1746The tide is turning: even Slate magazine is outraged about the phony outrage about 'Lady Doritos'
1747
1748Instead of outrage about outrage I recommend a stance of transparent indifference: I'm not upset that you're complaining, I just don't care whether what you're saying is true or not.
1749
1750The problem is that indifference cannot be marketed.
1751
1752Any resources for navigating a schizoid personality complex (my own, that is)?
1753
1754Had one other thought -
1755
1756Since this forum likes narcissism so much a way to understand the schizoid corollary is that **The schizoids "exaggerated inner world" or private life is to them what the narcissist's "exagerated public persona", or public life is to them.
1757
1758Any resources for navigating a schizoid personality complex (my own, that is)?
1759
1760Guntrip is excellent for understanding. A few things about the Schizoid position: It's not uncommon for people to understand this about themselves and it is also not uncommon for the same people to avoid doing anything about it. Often times their condition is ego-syntonic, meaning it "seems to fit" and they aren't really interested in changing. I.E. their problems are problems for other people, not them. Or they relate to their problems as secondary - for example they can't maintain relationships but claim this doesn't bother them, and maintain instead that they are only interested in sexual aspects of relationships, or that they can't hold down a job - and don't connect these to the relational things missing in both case.
1761
1762For people who are prone to isolate I think therapy is very important - much more so than for people who typically easily gravitate toward therapy. Not because you are going to get advice you can't find on your own, but because you can explore a relationship and take risks you might not ordinarily take - like telling the truth of the present moment.
1763
1764I don't particularly believe in diagnostic labels but have shared a sense of dealing with schizoid issues in my life.
1765
1766Your quest to overcome schizoid issues has to be conducted with other people involved, one way or another. Otherwise it will probably manifest as a defense - more trying to make it on one's own - there is always another book to read and the intellectualizing itself becomes a schizoid defense.
1767
1768I believe Guntrip said this about the Psychoanalytical community who he attributed schizoid characteristics to - setting up an unnecessarily aloof and cold body of intellectual work as a barrier between people.
1769
1770What do I do about a weak self?
1771
1772The best I've been able to come up with, without getting into jargon, is "Find someone you admire and try to emulate their motivations" not simply their actions or results, but try to care about the same things.
1773
1774If you find that you don't actually admire any other people then some form of therapy is probably in order. But for most people the problem on the surface is that they can't actually sincerely follow the example of other people they admire because of shame.
1775
1776The self is much more like tiny pieces of other significant people in our lives than it is about something which actually comes from within. Focus on developing significant positive admiration of other people and thinking about what your life would look like if you cultivated what moves them.
1777
1778Other psychiatry blogs?
1779
1780I like this guy: http://www.afterpsychotherapy.com/
1781
1782And this guy: https://melbournelacanian.wordpress.com/2014/02/04/the-founding-of-cbt-and-becks-foundational-errors-a-critique-of-cbt-as-ideology-part-2/
1783
1784Not as sassy, but they'll learn ya something!
1785
1786Hollywood Narcissism: I have the right to put myself out there, collect the megabux and only receive the kind of feedback that I want to hear. An interesting video examining the consequences of Natalie Portman's desires. Yes, it's narcissism as described by TLP.
1787
1788Thanks for saying all that. I think it is loneliness to a degree, but as with most things in life this can be bittersweet.
1789
1790Hollywood Narcissism: I have the right to put myself out there, collect the megabux and only receive the kind of feedback that I want to hear. An interesting video examining the consequences of Natalie Portman's desires. Yes, it's narcissism as described by TLP.
1791
1792I thought the video was pretty good actually. I think people can benefit their understanding of "narcissism" by generally replacing the term with "vanity" so long as one understands how all encompassing and arbitrary human vanity is. For instance, my reactions to this video need to incorporate my understanding that at least some of my self esteem comes from posting comments on the internet. That's pretty vain when I stop to think about it.
1793
1794What does the truth seeker want to be true?
1795
1796That by identifying with an imaginary "third party perspective" one can identify with the metaphysical and transcendent feeling of being more than a subjectivity. They used to call this the reality ego in the old days.
1797
1798I'm deeply skeptical on this issue and generally do not think people want to deal with reality much at all - outside of focusing on one part of it and elevating its significance.
1799
1800We Are Not Alone.
1801
1802Yes, well, we are and we aren't - alone that is. It's kind of like the duality of life...
1803
1804Wherever you turn psychologically you will find others - even the way we understand and experience ourselves is forever connected to other people.
1805
1806Yet, at the same time, existentially - we enter and leave this world alone and nobody can ever full understand us or share our experiences.
1807
1808Shifting between these perspectives often looks like either extreme "enmeshment" one side and extreme "isolation" on the other. It's nice to remember that it is perfectly natural to float between wanting more connection and wanting more independance. The people who feel most comfortable with these paradoxes don't take a great deal of responsibility for it and tend to hang their hat on the dominant culture. Those who see the arbitrariness of some of these things often are a little "neurotic" about it.
1809
1810I'm literally shaking. This can't be happening.
1811
1812NARCOIN - IT's only limited by the size of your ego. Wait...that already always has described the economy...
1813
1814?I did everything you said and I?m still alone? - Jezebel
1815
1816Isn't the [man/girl] feeling like a 'good person' contingent upon if they identify as a good person themselves? In these examples maybe that was self-evident/ assumed, but that's worth nothing (unless it is wrong).
1817
1818It's probably not contingent on "identifying as a good person" however since I'd be most likely to assume that the reason they are externalizing their locus of control is to avoid or undo the fact that they feel like a bad person. This is all to say, of course, that the problem is there are ultimately no good or bad people.
1819
1820It depends on a great deal. But that is a problem with trying to simplify psychology. Ultimately the activity I described can be viewed as either (a) absurd, or (b) absolutely normal and unworthy of comment.
1821
1822TLP makes a point akin to "radical freedom." While true on the surface what is left out is that the reason people are not radically free is existential terror for which there is no solution. In one way of looking at it, the "gain" is avoidance of anxiety.
1823
1824It's all to say that people's "ordinary" everyday way of relating to each other is absurd when viewed from an existential perspective. Not to say that this is the only perspective from which to do it - only that things like "projection" and "narcissism" are much more central and intractable to human experience than the popular audience usually accepts. The popular audience usually uses concepts as moralizing buzzwords to build up self esteem. Which is also pretty ordinary...and around it goes.
1825
1826I'm literally shaking. This can't be happening.
1827
1828On the one hand it seems like "narcissistic rage." On the other, given that fantasies about money are an ordinary thing people use to make their lives feel meaningful and their is a good chance his mom was actually in some way avoiding his anger (perhaps bypassing it), it's pretty natural. The sense of "shocked at loosing it" might be a way of saying he feels bad about having done it - or it might be the sense of losing control over whatever the anger may be a defense against - such as shame, or dispair.
1829
1830Paradigm Shift, From Narcissism to Altruism
1831
1832You may also reread the section from Escape from Evil called "Money the New Universal Immortality Ideology."
1833
1834Paradigm Shift, From Narcissism to Altruism
1835
1836By this metaphor I mean that people are largely superstitious about what produces prosperity and engage in magical thinking about repeating past activities in order to make the good times return again. Said another way, people superficially look to repeat past activities to produce future events not understanding underlying mechanisms.
1837
1838I'd add also that politics/economics aside optimism about capitalism functions psychologically to provide a quasi-religious world view in which the future is full of more and better stuff, which I think can rightly be called techno-cornucopianism.
1839
1840People in general think that past times of prosperity, say post WWII american economic growth, were due to some simplistic factor - such as a specific tax or labor policy. They then think that by repeating some element of a past time period they can recreate those conditions and often times elevate political folk heroes who claim they can bring back prosperity.
1841
1842In actuality the economy is a complex adaptive system, and prosperity is about energy and resources per capita qua goods and services - not about money, which is a symbol which only represents claims on goods and services, and thus only represents energy as processed by labor and technology. So changing monetary policy has limited capacity to change reality since you are only changing the way you represent reality, or changing the way you represent obligations and entitlements in the social arena.
1843
1844Regardless of policies put in place, past economic scenarios were the result of a complex mix of demographics, energy, technology and resources. There is no guarantee that anything like past events can be replicated in the future and deliver similar levels of prosperity.
1845
1846The UK is out of North Sea Oil, for instance. And North Sea Oil is gone forever. Repeating the policies of the Thatcher ministry may have other effects on the economy, but they will not create North Sea Oil or the physical impact that cheap to extract resources have on the economy.
1847
1848As another example, the impact on prosperity of the industrial revolution, the chemical revolution, the green revolution in agriculture, and the introduction of the computer were one time events. There is no guarantee whatsoever that these situations were not "low hanging fruit" on a tree of limited physical possibilities. There is strong evidence that technology itself is subject to diminishing marginal returns, similar to Marx's statement on the consequences of over-production leading to decreasing returns on capital (Tainter). I.E. economic growth under capitalism will sputter to a hault and collapse. None of this is to say that we shouldn't have embraced it and continue to enjoy it while it lasts - only to say I think we should be sober about the limited nature of human potential given my belief that industrial civilization will, well, go away forever.
1849
1850Paradigm Shift, From Narcissism to Altruism
1851
1852And by the way - in the mood of good humor I do consider socialism a death cult. I also consider capitalism a "cargo cult!"
1853
1854Why The Men Were Silent At The Golden Globes (For Good Reason)
1855
1856In sorting through these thorny issues I find it helpful to remember that there is no such thing as a good person, and everyone is vulnerable to the desire for a degree of superiority, domination and control. Some men apparently use sex this way. It also appears women use victim-hood and moral authority to the same effect.
1857
1858You just can never leave the fact that if victims of any kind need so much special protection, maybe they really are inferior.
1859
1860Paradigm Shift, From Narcissism to Altruism
1861
1862I think your knowledge of Becker, and your ability to succinctly articulate his body of work, is noteworthy and I appreciate it.
1863
1864I do agree with you that capitalism, by virtue of making goods infinitely interchangeable (mass production), reduces rivalry over objects. In an article I wrote that the effect of the sign value of commodities is that "One no longer covets your neighbors Ox. Instead you both covet the identity of the guy with the hot wife in the Ox commercial before you both bought Oxen and now both spend your time thinking about how each other are vain to do such a silly thing."
1865
1866I haven't put it in these terms before but I think what capitalism does, said most succinctly, is destroys culture by making it metaphysical through commoditization and marketing.
1867
1868A point I've made before is that in the classic story of Jesus, for instance, was the fact that he was mocked by being made to wear purple - in that it made it obvious he was not a king. No peasant would have wanted to wear a purple cloak around in that everyone would know the lie and it would produce humiliation. Now under capitalism people's relationships to objects have changed in that a poor person may still want (enter equivalent sign for wealth) and would wear them with pride.
1869
1870It's a different relationship to objects. We get a lot of our "meaning" or anxiety avoidance, through objects, these days. The pedestrian criticism of this is that it's a shame we're not getting our meaning through relationships. But then again, relationships were always thinly veiled psychosis to begin with.
1871
1872Paradigm Shift, From Narcissism to Altruism
1873
1874I'm with you 100% up until about 37 minutes with the exception of the distinction we've already discussed about transference. Here are a few comments to start a dialogue. I'd love to continue this in another thread some time.
1875
1876While I am sympathetic to your case for capitalism you make too large of a jump from the psychology/sociology and the political. The key areas ignored are energy and resources, theories of value and the roles of labor and ownership.
1877
1878I'd challenge you to elaborate on the role of objects (cultural artificats) in the world of meaning/death anxiety avoidance. How are "objects" contrasted to "resources" in systems of ownership. What role does labor play in creating objects from resources? How does technology and exogenous energy (fossil fuel burning) change the cultural role of labor and at what cost/benefits? What is "ownership" psychologically - is it just a rigid taboo to avoid violence, or is it actually metaphysical?
1879
1880Some authors who I think are extremely important in this area which would help connect the dots are: Eric Gans, Rene Girard, Charles Hall (Energy and the Wealth of Nations) and Andreas Malm (Fossil Capitalism). You may also want to add Baudrillard to that list for the psychology of objects in capitalism. (Ignore the global warming bit from Malm - not related to our conversation)
1881
1882Capitalism has to be taken back at the very least to the invention of the steam engine and the private ownership of coal resources - not merely jumping in at 21st century Western Civilization - an empire of fossil fuel dominion - to parse out what we owe to our cultural ideas about ownership vs what we owe to having lots of energy resources at hand.
1883
1884The biological imperative of all living organisms is to consume positive net energy. This means that energy must be absorbed into the organism in excess of that which is expended whether through photosynthetic, thermal or consumptive processes.
1885
1886As a provocative rejoinder I would say that capitalism is the best way to consume the most resources the fastest because it maximizes the tragedy of the commons. I say this as a fan of capitalism (in that I enjoy it's benefits) and one who will be sad to see it go (as one who is deeply concerned about the implications of near future resource depletion).
1887
1888Person on Reddit thinks 1984 is about how free speech is a 'privilege' not a right.
1889
1890Close - it's more emotional than how one "defines" it. You could say it this way. If a person does not feel entitled to take actions which are fairly ordinary they are suffering from super ego effects. If a person feels relatively entitled to a wide range of actions and experiences their life as primarily doing what they want to do they probably have a pretty healthy ego. Finally - a person who does extremely "anti-cultural" things (like criminality) is often times demonstrating a super-ego effect - namely symptomatic over-expression.
1891
1892Paradigm Shift, From Narcissism to Altruism
1893
1894Got it, yeah that's not exactly it. So I'm no animal behaviorist but submission is different than sublimation and has biological cues - from how high up a dog can pee on a tree (indicating height and strength) to other sensory cues.
1895
1896Humans do get submissive, but idolization among humans I think is better understood psychologically through things like the "idealization transference" whereby someone (classically a child) expands the sense of their own ego by identification with an idealized caregiver. e.g. - Father is big and strong, and by my love of father I associate in his strength and power, feeling a measure of it in my self.
1897
1898Paradigm Shift, From Narcissism to Altruism
1899
1900I will watch the video - looking forward to it. I would have to point out that other pack animals do not experience "transference" so we may be using this word differently and not share the same conceptual framework. Animals have instincts - they don't symbolize external objects through internal representations and then deploy these symbols in other situations (transference).
1901
1902The criticism of Freud's instinct theory in my opinion is important for three reasons: 1. It is what his principal detractors of Rank, Adler and Jung most accurately identified as problematic with his view. 2. It has been repeated in a new form by evolutionary psychologists, and especially in common sense existentialist explanations of the human condition. (i.e. "women are like that") 3. Freud had a radical departure from his early instinct driven psychology after 1923 and his discovery of the "superego" which radically changed his psychoanalysis, a distinction missed by most people who discuss Freud.
1903
1904The original theoretical opposite of Narcissism was object love. Compassion is more of a derivative of empathy - best exemplified in the conflict between Kernberg and Kohout on whether empathy is critically important or a dangerous indulgence.
1905
1906Paradigm Shift, From Narcissism to Altruism
1907
1908I did not realize you were the author of the video itself. Sorry for the double dipping. I'll post comments at both locations since we have it going already. If you post followup videos I'll keep the comments in one place.
1909
1910Paradigm Shift, From Narcissism to Altruism
1911
1912Your explanation of the issue of the guru is accurate from Becker. But this is part of his broader critique of whether or not you can escape the transference or whether you just run from it and/or explain it away. Kohut explored this as does Apfelbaum. To Kohut, the question was whether their is anything beyond the self-object relationship. To Apfelbaum, discomfort with transference could itself be a superego effect. There is nothing beyond the transference you could say, only whether you relate to it with entitlement (to your projections) or shame.
1913
1914When you say "...meditation...are proven to increase well being..." I think you are rushing past the crux of the issue. To instruct someone do an activity and scan their brain at various times and question them about their happiness short cuts all the insights of psychoanalysis such as (1) what does it mean to them to be participating in a study, (2) what role does science and medicine in general play in their explanatory view of the world, (3) what do the participants believe about buddhism/meditation/mindfulness etc.
1915
1916The depth of these issues cannot be stressed enough. As an aside, consider the simple matter of a food study. Someone who embraces a "healthy" diet, for instance, may report positive feelings which show up on brain scans based on the fact the feel "healthy", by which they mean "like a good and superior person" rather than anything having to do with the function of their organs (the definition of health).
1917
1918Paradigm Shift, From Narcissism to Altruism
1919
1920The first part is excellent. Well articulated connection of guilt/anxiety and the recursive projection of authority. Brilliant summary of classical issues of narcissism and denial, formation of the self through negation.
1921
1922I don't accept the second part. I think Becker adequately dealt with eastern wisdom in denial of death. Meditation is a fantasy about transference, in these terms. I don't think you can actually get to compassion without working through the personal implications of "the old system." This is much like the hope of shortcutting psychotherapy, or shortcutting the process of being a Monk. However, I acknowledge that the behavior (meditating) might make you feel better. This guy has inspired me to reconsider some of these issues, however, and will look to hear more. I left a comment for him on his video.
1923
1924Two adjuncts I wold recommend are Generative Anthropology: http://anthropoetics.ucla.edu/gaintro/ - This relates the points mentioned by Rank about language with Rene Girard's theory of mediated desire.
1925
1926And second, Varki & Brower 2013: https://un-denial.com/denial-2/book/, on the evolution of consciousness and denial
1927
1928Person on Reddit thinks 1984 is about how free speech is a 'privilege' not a right.
1929
1930This is precisely why I think Ego Analysis is important, focusing on the sense of "entitlement" which is inherently relational between the subject and environment. Entitlement itself is of course a feeling.
1931
1932What most people can't grok is that a persons understanding of their freedom comprises the superego.
1933
1934I would dovetail the existentialists into this because it is the dread of separation which makes the superego so strong and makes it look like "fear of freedom."
1935
1936?I did everything you said and I?m still alone? - Jezebel
1937
1938Sure thing - a man likes a girl who is anxious because by taking care of the girls anxiety he gets to feel like a good person.
1939
1940Or a girl likes a man who is irritable, because she gets to take responsibility for solving some of his angst, and also feels like a good person.
1941
1942These are minor pathologies in that you are dealing with projections and whatnot, however when truly stripped away you are left with two people who are either (a)radically isolated, or (b) perhaps joined by something more than a fantasy about the relationship - such as a mutual shared commitment to a religion, a role within a local community, or other shared relationships to third parties like family and children.
1943
1944?I did everything you said and I?m still alone? - Jezebel
1945
1946It's kind of a pithy way of describing some of the tenets of psychoanalysis. To elaborate slightly...
1947
1948Projection is ordinary. Person A projects at person B, hoping to ultimately validate something about person A by the response of person B. However, person B, not wanting to be an obejct of someone elses ego and guarding against the terror of existential anxiety, constructs a character or personality which protects the ego of person B and helps maintain a certain sense of separateness - of a robust and real self that is so different and separate from person A.
1949
1950Sadly, this robust and real self, being so cut off by defenses of character from the rest of the world, is actually quite vulnerable and fragile given that it is imaginary and propped up through external feed back. Person B is dimly aware of this and defends against it all the more - even desperately projecting his anxieties back onto person A, with the hope of shoring up his ego with salubrious validation.
1951
1952All of this happens without A or B acknowledging it, of course. Because to face up to it consciously is shocking, in that this is all anybody is doing or can do and it seems absurd when you realize what you are hanging your self esteem on.
1953
1954So to say it another way, ordinarily person A likes person B when something about person B's character reflects back to person A something which validates person A's attempt to keep his shit together.
1955
1956The more desperately one runs from this fact, the more neurotic or narcissistic they will become. Accepting it deeply yields no escape - but does open the potential for solidarity, spontaneity, and the courage which comes from facing the givens of life head on.
1957
1958?I did everything you said and I?m still alone? - Jezebel
1959
1960The Denial of Death by Ernest Becker for the first point. For the second, I guess it's just my related assertion.
1961
1962Buying Underwear Is Not Spiritual Growth ? The Blond Beast
1963
1964You could say it is "gratifying an infantile desire for attention and exuberance" but that sounds awfully superego to me.
1965
1966At the deep end of the pool I would say there is nothing "wrong" with this gratification. The only issue is that the reason an adult pursues this gratification is to avoid reality - e.g. the anxieties of isolation and the fear of death.
1967
1968Buying Underwear Is Not Spiritual Growth ? The Blond Beast
1969
1970Bingo again.
1971
1972Buying Underwear Is Not Spiritual Growth ? The Blond Beast
1973
1974Preciseley - the fantasy is that the object is desired. What is hidden is that object desires are mediated through relationships with other people. In this case, playing fast and loose with the hidden gaze of the director and the real gaze of the viewer. Objects are significant by virtue of a relationship. Marketing functions to hide this fact and try to substitute the superego as a relationship.
1975
1976Buying Underwear Is Not Spiritual Growth ? The Blond Beast
1977
1978As the author, I have to answer that no, I do not think it is possible.
1979
1980#metoo vs. #romance? | Zero Squared Podcasts
1981
1982Exellent analysis and application. Given that many people who gave up on God and culture look to relationships to provide (as opposed to demonstrate?) meaning to their lives have great difficulty with the psychoanalytic truths about the limits of relationships. Said another way "What exactly are you doing when you're having a relationship with someone?"
1983
1984?I did everything you said and I?m still alone? - Jezebel
1985
1986Love that. Was reading Becker recently and he pointed out that personality and character are everyday psychosis in that they are constructed in order to stand between people and the facts of life. One fact of life germane to this article is that people ordinarily like you for what you do (or more specifically, represent symbolically) to them. Ordinarily people do not like you for what your ego means to you yourself.
1987
1988My interpretation of what it means to be lied to, by yourself
1989
1990One factor I suggest you consider is that this is a motivated process. As in, reality is distorted in service of the ego. The perspective position (which I claim is relative) is whether reality is distorted to protect the ego from real existential shocks, or whether reality is distorted to aggrandize the ego at the expense of its objects.
1991
1992The realm of meaning is largely symbolic - by which I mean it takes recourse to representing past meanings and the inferred meanings of other people.
1993
1994The most plausible explanation for why TLP lost the stomach for blogging
1995
1996I think most prominently he faced professional criticism for being a medical professional with an incindiary, iconoclastic blog. My answer (b) has always been that he realized he was writing the blog for his own narcissism and came to the inevitable conclusion that he should lighten up.
1997
1998As a vote AGAINST same-sex-marriage: I, Caitaln Joye Nash -- Daughter of Davis Son of Joseph -- Disown my Birth Parent "Micheal" for the crimes of... He/She/It will know FiveEver.
1999
2000I'd be more concerned about the fact that he seems to already be getting your life. I'm not always clear when you're being metaphorical .
2001
2002Discussion request: Western Women (I'm Eastern)
2003
2004Cultures have seemingly always killed some children. I wonder what to make of that?
2005
2006Prolegomena to Feminism as the Dogma of 1950s Republicanism
2007
2008It's a shame their are only two sexes - we want them to mean so very much.
2009
2010I would credit you this much: a gendered victimary movement with protests of mistreatment and requests for help has to incorporate raging denial of the fact that if you need so much help and protection, perhaps you really are the weaker sex?
2011
2012At any rate, the modern climate of word-processing on computers in offices as the barometer of all occupations has made the historical blip of labor equality seem more enduring than it is. These things will go away and be revealed, in my opinion, as class pretensions, not gender ones.
2013
2014Lighten up on inauthentic people. The one thing people can't tolerate is freedom.
2015
2016Ernest Becker's Denial of Death Reconsidered
2017
2018I'm less concerned with whether you like my response or not and am more concerned with what you think I don't understand about Alice Miller and what that has to do with the OP. Do you mind saying more about that and leaving off the part about your intuitions about me?
2019
2020Ernest Becker's Denial of Death Reconsidered
2021
2022Bernard Apfelbaum had a good review of Alice Miller. His point is that the childhood is a microcosm of how we all treat each other all the time. In this way trauma is a too-close experience or reality which pops one outside the comfortable repression of culture.
2023
2024Nonbinary people could have gone two ways
2025
2026Not really a choice, per say. It's a question of what the underlying basic motivation for humans is. Freud was criticized for being too hung up on "instincts" which ironically is what the geneticists have returned to.
2027
2028I think what's most important to people is a personal, partially conscious, quest toward personal significance - toward having a symbolic relationship in the world of their culture - of which all sexualities are a part.
2029
2030I am comfortable with people disagreeing. I think the nature of reality is that it hides from you in comfortable common culture.
2031
2032Ernest Becker's Denial of Death Reconsidered
2033
2034How did you apply McLuhan, if I may ask?
2035
2036Ernest Becker's Denial of Death Reconsidered
2037
2038Funny I had the same situation. It sat on my book shelf for a long time. Maybe a little bit of not wanting to look at the situation.
2039
2040Define: Post Modernism. Please.
2041
2042I'd say largely it's a fight to unmake meanings - a mimetic crisis.
2043
2044Political economy of millennials: not every kid-bond matures
2045
2046We've left it up to people to create their own lives by destroying collective meaning. Unfortunately for millennials this is an impossible task, and the reason we did it is so that we could feel like heroes. We haven't left them with much to destroy, so look out.
2047
2048Female objectification and 2 non-solutions: demand the imaginary other person stop or ask the imaginary Master to do something
2049
2050The male gaze stuff as a world-view is a defense against terror - the knowledge that all anyone tends to do is objectify people and or fit themselves into others projections.
2051
2052The belief serves to protect against the dread one feels when that really sinks in - and the insignificance.
2053
2054Nonbinary people could have gone two ways
2055
2056I maintain sexual and gender orientation are primarily about the ontological significance of ones life experience and have little to nothing to do with genetics. So we all could have gone both ways.
2057
2058Adam Phillips once said: It's a shame their are only two genders. We want them to mean so very much.
2059
2060What does BPD look like outside of the "abused woman in a relationship" archetype?
2061
2062It looks like someone rapidly shifting very intense projections at you. Boxing you in with assumptions that you are alternately a persecutor and a savior.
2063
2064Keep in mind everyone does the underlying behavior to some degree. Only the magnitude, rapidity of shifting, and life consequences qualify it as a "disorder."
2065
2066Should a person self-develop a value code?
2067
2068I'm not sure sublimation applies to my comment. A good example of this context would be someone who was "bullied." Instead of shrinking back depressively, feeling as if one who was a victim who was not protected by others, to connect with how important such protection is. Instead of running from conflict, or reacting against it - to demonstrate a mature desire to encourage others who are being bullied and protect them from undue torment. Now, if you viewed repressed anger as being underneath the depression then you could view this activity as sublimating your rage into a mature desire to help.
2069
2070The Void.
2071
2072I think Buadrillard is great reading in this area - anything about the simulacra. Was it him perhaps?
2073
2074His classical example might be that adult videos purport to represent ideal sexual relations. Then viewers represent these videos. However, the con is that the idealized sexual relations never exist in the first place. Related to the procession of language representations in schizophrenia - eventually you are only referring to referring. This can be a window into any phenomena. Reality, as an open system, cannot ultimately be represented.
2075
2076ELI5: The use of ?memes? and ?mimetic? in the context of this sub and others in its orbit
2077
2078That's a good point given your broad usage of a meme and I hadn't thought of that direct connection before. Worth some thought!
2079
2080Also agree it's hard to keep the construct of a meme separate from a "belief" or "idea" or whatnot.
2081
2082Should a person self-develop a value code?
2083
2084Sure thing - what I am referring to is how one takes a persons actions at face value vs. trying to account for their motivations. These days we tend to do that psychologically. In times past, we would explain peoples actions religiously.
2085
2086Often times people claim to take others at face value, but in reality are dismissing understanding their actions. An example would be if a person seems rude to not worry about their perspective and claim So-and-so is just an asshole. This is a pretty shallow, but very common way of dismissing a deeper understanding of human motivation. You could call it a genetic error in philosophy, dismissive labeling in psychology, or whatever.
2087
2088My position is that it is kind of know-nothing to say that people's actions automatically reflect what they really want to be doing, all things considered. Most noteworthy actions take place against a background of conflicting motivations - of having to overcome something. Eating a pizza could represent overcoming guilt about a felt need to maintain a healthy diet. Abstaining from the pizza could be overcoming a sense of hunger. Or either could be experienced as a failure! A failure to let loose! A failure to maintain a goal!
2089
2090My personal take is that this is usually shame and/or guilt which keeps people from doing what they otherwise would - and ultimately causes problems such as resentment and acting out where people compulsively overreact and find their behavior hard to understand.
2091
2092Regarding your last question: I think "relating to oneself better" reflects a core value when it's almost as if you are relating to another person - your future self, let's say, which allows you to act in your best long term interests. e.g. winning an argument may not be something you want to live with if being right is something you can't live with.
2093
2094Acting in your long term interests is different than protecting ones ego in the present - which tends to lead to a miserable life.
2095
2096Another example might be: Someone in an argument who is out of touch with their core values may blow up in rage and insults to protect their ego. If the same person were less sensitive they may experience the same desire to leave the conversation - but if they are not ashamed of having to do this, they don't have to blame the other person and could do so in a way that safeguards the relationship. As in "I'm having a hard time with this conversation and need some time to think about it. Would you mind if we talk about this later?" The key is they wouldn't experience this as some kind of defeat, abuse or humiliation.
2097
2098But in general I have trouble with the idea of relating to oneself. I think the self is comprised of relationships to others (representations of past relationships). So this makes relating to oneself an imaginary exercise of comparison to past and present relationships with real or imagined other people.
2099
2100Should a person self-develop a value code?
2101
2102The difference in my estimation is a good life is one you care about. The bad life is one in which you don't actually live in line with what you care about, and all the derivative ways that can manifest. On the surface, this requires dismissing a great many possible objections - such as "what if you care about dominating other people?"
2103
2104But I think such objections deserve to be dismissed - answering why that is the case is a much longer conversation.
2105
2106Should a person self-develop a value code?
2107
2108Yes! It's metaphysical thinking - like "values" are free floating. I like focusing on "what do you care about?" Metaphysical values lead to ego concepts, not a better life for you and others.
2109
2110Should a person self-develop a value code?
2111
2112Yes! Many defensive character issues can be seen as valuing (caring about) protecting oneself. Which usually leads to considering if there was someone who failed to protect you in the past, and the shame of not having been protected.
2113
2114Get around the shame and one can better protect oneself, and protect others.
2115
2116Should a person self-develop a value code?
2117
2118I think it is important to acknowledge the inner experience of the hurt - which especially for men is often feeling devalued. There is no one size solution for this, but the general approach you're targeting would be to acknowledge this feeling as your own rather than someone else doing it to you.
2119
2120Look at it this way - in these situations someone has drawn your attention to an unpleasant fact about yourself such as the fact that you are not really sure in your heart of hearts of your value. Part of your job is to see that, and the other part is to control your attention and refocus on those things that truly are where you hang your hat on what makes your life worth living - such as the fact that you care about other people and want to improve your relationship.
2121
2122What ultimately results in developing a thicker skin (not being easily frustrated or hurt) is to work through this process of proving to yourself you can refocus and maintain your core values.
2123
2124Other people are difficult - and they are never going to stop being that way. If you're ever going to confront someone you can either have a power struggle or confront them from the standpoint of core values.
2125
2126The difference between an "inner" conflict and "outer" conflict is not always as clear as it seems. Try to have "outer" conflicts with real people, motivated by "inner" values - rather than "inner" conflicts motivated by "outer" or imagined values.
2127
2128Hope it helps.
2129
2130Should a person self-develop a value code?
2131
2132Yes - developing onese core values is everything. I think that underneath surface virtues you'll find a common value shared by (sorry for the normative) healthy/mature people. For instance, why does simplicity matter?
2133
2134I think you'll find it is ultimately an expression of caring. When you're gone, do you want people to remember you were simple, or ultimately, that you cared about them?
2135
2136Without this orientation I think it is hard to distiguish derivative values (like hard work) from core values - like improving the world, connecting with others, protecting those you care about, and appreciate beauty. All of these are related to ones ability to care, or to value, people and institutions in your life. Working hard only matters as a value if you are improving the world or the lives of others in this perspective.
2137
2138Most psychological problems involve damage to this capacity - which leave one either devaluing life and people, or running away from deeper contact and focusing on surface ego issues.
2139
2140Slave-like malice at the core of radical feminist opposition to sex dolls
2141
2142Thanks! I think it emphasizes the myriad ways one cooperates with powers one would complain about - by giving them your time, money, attention - i.e. anything you're willing to burn calories on.
2143
2144Which is why I think individual action is the most important factor to focus on.
2145
2146Slave-like malice at the core of radical feminist opposition to sex dolls
2147
2148Yes! I've come to land strongly on the side of the super-ego being the most important part of the psyche.
2149
2150Slave-like malice at the core of radical feminist opposition to sex dolls
2151
2152Yes, it gets very difficult to deal with pathology of the person vs existing in a nexus with society (or even a family structure). This conundrum is best stepped outside of, rather than addressed - given the tendency to perpetuate the dynamics of the system by validating the experience of the web of relationships.
2153
2154On a tangent - I often argue with people who are too into Foucault about what they mean by Power. Baudrillard's masterful "forget Foucault" advance the point that everyone is obsessed with power because it doesn't exist.
2155
2156Personally, I define power from it's double entendre - "the ability to do work." Power in the social context is the ability to get other people to do things for you, in my working definition.
2157
2158Slave-like malice at the core of radical feminist opposition to sex dolls
2159
2160Women are the patriarchy
2161
2162Love it!
2163
2164Slave-like malice at the core of radical feminist opposition to sex dolls
2165
2166An excellent explication of Deleuze contra Nietzsche and projection. It's a hard position to admit for it represents collapse of the resentful persons whole ontology. I've said before that the emotional perception of master/slave ideology is the fundamental ontological position of most people. It represents a kind of enlightenment to achieve freedom from it - and those who never experienced life that way can't quite understand it.
2167
2168ELI5: The use of ?memes? and ?mimetic? in the context of this sub and others in its orbit
2169
2170The difference is this:
2171
2172Memes refer to a type of institutional fact or knowledge (Ayer, Serle) which can be communicated in a population almost like genetics (Dawkins). There is a lot more in media to say about this.
2173
2174Mimetic/mimisis refers to the human function of imitating other people. It's used in large part to discuss the formulation of identity. (Girard)
2175
2176The two actually have relatively little to do with each other.
2177
2178Hate is the New Sex
2179
2180I'd recommend Energy and the Wealth of Nations. https://www.amazon.com/Energy-Wealth-Nations-Understanding-Biophysical/dp/1441993975
2181
2182You can also find an understanding of his work on youtube. Basically the claim is that energy is the real basis of the economy - with all the implications you'd imagine for oil, environment and geopolitics.
2183
2184Also, ourfiniteworld.com is a frequent read for me.
2185
2186Hate is the New Sex
2187
2188This is pretty much it for regular participation.
2189
2190Hate is the New Sex
2191
2192Awesome! Reading a modern lovecraftian novel right now, how serendipitous.
2193
2194Help me make sure I follow you: Could your usage of "enjoy" be equated to the Transactional Analysis (Eric Berne) concept of a negative stroke to the ego? I.E. the ego needs attention/validation/stimulation and any stimulation will do? The bad reflection is better than the dark mirror, sort of thing?
2195
2196I'm hip to this usage, I just tend to cringe because the "they enjoy it" line of reasoning is usually trotted out as justification for judgement (and hiding ones own judgement) which is bastardized in the public concept of psychoanalysis and really isn't what most of the greats intended.
2197
2198This conflict arises at the heart of having sympathy for the suffering vs simply explaining or justifying negative countertransference.
2199
2200i.e. The analyst finding himself bored or frustrated (ignored) in the presence of a narcissistic patient must always deal with the complexity of his own narcissism (wanting to feel competent and helpful, for example) to get to the bottom of these issues.
2201
2202It's a mark of psychological maturity to realize that one generally dislikes "narcissists" because they challenge ones own narcissism, IMHO, but that is an unpopular view among the anti-narc corner of the web. I of course think they are just mad at me because I have challenged their narcissism. And around we go...
2203
2204The concept that people just shouldn't be narcissistic is in my mind hugely problematic. I rather prefer: people like to feel important, which can mean many things, so how can we go about it more effectively?
2205
2206The Truth Will Not Be Googled
2207
2208Nice one!
2209
2210Hate is the New Sex
2211
2212Thanks for saying that - if you see anything you think would be of interest to this group let me know and I'd be happy to tackle it!
2213
2214Hate is the New Sex
2215
2216I think it generally hides based on the fact that people surround themselves most with those who share the same resentments such that it just seems like the truth. It's easy to be around someone with different interests, but can be challenging to be around someone with different hatreds.
2217
2218Father denounces racist son who attended Charlottesville rally
2219
2220Loving everyone works if you have either (1) a basket of loaves and fishes with the magical multiplying power of Jesus, or (2) enlessly expanding economic growth thanks to the exploitation of high energy return fossil fuel resources.
2221
2222In short - only to the extent that competition can be mitigated by abundance. If the pie is getting bigger, we can all get along. If Jesus only had 12 loaves and fishes with no magic - the story would have ended differently. It was a good story - that the spirit of charity itself can produce what seem like miracles within a community of like-minded believers
2223
2224We don't have either, anymore, and the hatred will be like as has never been seen before.
2225
2226Hate is the New Sex
2227
2228Haha - I used to like him. Then he started caring about virtue signaling instead of bad-assery signaling like he did in the 70's-90's. Too bad the death of steroids reduced his testosterone.
2229
2230But, yes, disavowing ones negative affects (hate/contempt) and blaming them on others is the basic equation of virtue signaling.
2231
2232I say just come out and say it - if you think you're better than someone else and have contempt for them let your freak flag fly. Not everybody has to like you - and it doesn't mean they are morally bad if they hate you and everything you represent. They may just have conflicting interests.
2233
2234Hate is the New Sex
2235
2236Have you considered the Apfelbaum material I've presented earlier, or Kohut? The basic idea goes like this (1) Repression leads to compulsion, and symptomatic over-expression, (2) narcissism (as most often defined) is the symptomatic over-expression of self in response to the repressive effect of shame.
2237
2238You have to tackle a few problems here: First, most simply, do you really believe a person is enjoying their narcissism? If yes, you have to ask yourself who really has the problem - and it is most likely to be ordinary moralizing and projection on the viewers part. Second, narcissism has been so broadly defined that it hardly means anything (See Dombek's The Selfishness of Others). Finally, the discourse is completely muddled by confused notions of self and other - since these constructs are experienced by individuals as a feeling about a relationship.
2239
2240So something like "self envy" to me is nonsensical because the "self" can only be understood/experienced by an individual as a mimetic comparison to others.
2241
2242Hope that helps start a conversation!
2243
2244Hate is the New Sex
2245
2246Thanks! I kind of ran out of steam / said everything I had to say about psychology. There are also now a lot of voices in the youtube world covering the kind of topics I was talking about from different angles. These days I'm reading a lot about energy and the economy, so I may blog about that. Running a website is also expensive, moreso than I realized for someone who has no intent to monetize. So I may let it lapse or find a free platform.
2247
2248Hate is the New Sex
2249
2250I'd contrast it from other forms of negativity based on "ill will" hostility or bad intentions, such as the wish for harm to befall someone - even if it is only temporary or fleeting. This gets to the core of the psychology defense against hatred - it's not that I'm hateful, it's that they deserve it.
2251
2252The latter may or may not be true, but the logic exists to avoid admitting responsibility for hatred.
2253
2254Hate is the New Sex
2255
2256It's about Nietzsche, not Hitler.
2257
2258Monthly Miscellaneous Thread
2259
2260Check out Steve Stosney. He's the only pop psych guy worth reading in my opinion. I think he understands the unconscious and can describe what to do about it in relationships in a very simple way.
2261
2262Monthly Miscellaneous Thread
2263
2264Haha - last year I just froze pasta sauce, this year I'm going to try canning. Not only am I ready for the apocalypse of my own projections, but I also like pickles.
2265
2266Monthly Miscellaneous Thread
2267
2268It's harvest time in the garden. Tomatoes coming out of my ears! Been busy! Hope you are all well.
2269
2270Novel Recommendations
2271
2272I have not - would you recommend them? What's the tone (funny/dark, etc?)
2273
2274Novel Recommendations
2275
2276Confederacy of Dunces. Journey to the End of the Night by Celine. Always like Catch 22.
2277
2278Anyone remember the name of that silicon Valley satire blog?
2279
2280Silicon valley satire blog? Facebook?
2281
2282Kidding/not kidding.
2283
2284Thought this was a decent read
2285
2286Life will be meaningful again when we need beauty to cope with the challenges of the day. The vanities and ennui once reserved for nobility has become the domain of the entirety of western civilization, living on the tide of cheap energy - the technological equivalent of fossil slaves.
2287
2288For every $1 you spend, this is the equivalent to 1 coffee cup of oil burned somewhere in the world. Everyone's job description is to send emails. The only thing a career represents is what will be the subject of your emails?
2289
2290I've met plenty of mason laborers who had drug addictions and beat their wives, but I've never met one who was ironic or wrapped in ennui.
2291
2292'The victimocracy has repudiated intellectual freedom and cultural constraints while chafing at economic freedom; the new right, meanwhile, repudiates non-discrimination, seeing it as a battering ram aimed at demolishing the rest of the civilized order.' | Some Hidden Infrastructures of Civilization
2293
2294I've long said that discrimination is part of the natural continuum of the cognitive dyad of preference/bias. Here is one example from about a year ago.
2295
2296http://theblondbeast.com/tag/projectinclude-org/
2297
2298You could just feel free to make your own case about what you think is wrong with discrimination instead of the "what happened to you?" angle.
2299
2300'The victimocracy has repudiated intellectual freedom and cultural constraints while chafing at economic freedom; the new right, meanwhile, repudiates non-discrimination, seeing it as a battering ram aimed at demolishing the rest of the civilized order.' | Some Hidden Infrastructures of Civilization
2301
2302I predict little on this one - rather I claim that the average standard of living is already in a state of terminal decline - basically that technological innovation has hit the point of diminishing marginal returns - full stop, end of story.
2303
2304Having contempt against most freeloaders is different than having contempt against anyone who isn't a worker bee. You seem to imply that most of the people who are not contributing to society can be categorized as crippled veterans and the victims of maiming accidents. I'd also include among the free loaders many of the very rich - celebrities, politicians, etc. in addition to the usual bugbears of EBT card holders. My point amounts to little more than the claim that I'd prefer a shame based society over a victim culture.
2305
2306Your accusations paint my generally strong point with a pretty broad brush. Abundance has little to do with culture and everything to do with thermodynamics. Regardless of the level of technology of a society there is always the question of what percentage of the population must produce net positive contribution and what percentage of free loaders (including the very rich) it can tolerate.
2307
2308Hotel Concierge - The Tower
2309
2310Thank you for this summary.
2311
2312'The victimocracy has repudiated intellectual freedom and cultural constraints while chafing at economic freedom; the new right, meanwhile, repudiates non-discrimination, seeing it as a battering ram aimed at demolishing the rest of the civilized order.' | Some Hidden Infrastructures of Civilization
2313
2314I realize the importance of lithium, I just think it's way too limited to rise to the importance.
2315
2316I can't remember the details - but the sad truth is that something like if Tesla took over 1% of auto sales (or any electric car) that would use 100% of the annual production of lithium.
2317
2318someone posted this and promptly deleted their account. what the hell?
2319
2320I'd argue the primacy of other-obsession is based on the fact that psychologically speaking, the other exists before the self, earlier in development so your sense of the latter (the self) is based first and foremost on the impressions of the other.
2321
2322Thanks for the compliment - I haven't had much to write about these days. It's not a monetized project, so I've taken it very much as the spirit moves me.
2323
2324someone posted this and promptly deleted their account. what the hell?
2325
2326The conditions for the possibility of widespread Narcissism with accompanying individualism and consumerism are the exploitation of energy resources as a substitute for human labor.
2327
2328What the author could add is the Girardian perspective - the weak sense of self comes from obsession with others, which has been fanned to it's pitch in the pre-internet age.
2329
2330It's actually going away now as packaged marketing figures are supplanted by sought after self made internet celebrities.
2331
2332It's a pull-market, not push-advertising now - products as patrons of celebrities, not corporate brand art.
2333
2334With this, narcissism will die and be reborn again in full on identity tribalism - which is where it always hid before.
2335
2336What should you do when you meet a Narcissist? Run?
2337
2338Created by your projections of other people, or other people's projections of you?
2339
2340In the past, not the present. The "grandiose" self is created in part out of projections and projective identificatoin, and reactions against the same. i.e. it didn't spring up out of nowhere, but from relationships.
2341
2342Isn't that their MO? Aren't they always trying to get others to accept their version of reality?
2343
2344In a way yes, but aren't we all at times? The most generous way to think about it is that narcissist are doing something compulsively (too hard, too much, too insistantly) that "healthy" people do more gently and flexibly.
2345
2346What should you do when you meet a Narcissist? Run?
2347
2348My biggest issue is that I don't think can express criticism without a severe overreaction or total dismissal.
2349
2350Fear of reprisal is best dealt with by understanding their behavior as a defense mechanism against overwhelming shame. But your reaction is perfectly normal - just be careful how many peolple you're labeling irredeemably narcissistic. If it is more than 1 or 2 people in your life then your belief about narcissists is your own issue to deal with.
2351
2352While you can't "fix" other people, understanding the problem will at least let you deal with them without despair - i.e. you can make things a little better, which we have to learn is enough.
2353
2354'The victimocracy has repudiated intellectual freedom and cultural constraints while chafing at economic freedom; the new right, meanwhile, repudiates non-discrimination, seeing it as a battering ram aimed at demolishing the rest of the civilized order.' | Some Hidden Infrastructures of Civilization
2355
2356One and the same. Our cultural obsession with this particular tragedy - vs others which have been historically worse - is a demonstration of the victimocracy. Victim thinking turns everything in our modern world into a metaphor of nazis and Jews, masters and slaves.
2357
2358Infatuation
2359
2360Lately I've been recommending Steve Stosny - he's more of a pop guy than I'd ordinarily recommend, but his work is immediately actionable.
2361
2362Basically the way to fix emotional problems is to start acting based on what's most important to you, your core values, rather than acting based on your feelings in the moment.
2363
2364Your core values will have something to do with improving the world or the lives of other people, and very little to do with neediness or stroking ones ego.
2365
2366It's easier said than done, but basically stop responding to the world the way it is/seems and start acting to make it just a tiny bit more like the way you truly wish it were.
2367
2368Infatuation
2369
2370Mature love becomes more about you acting out your most important values.
2371
2372There are a lot of ways to talk about this, but the most meaningful in my experience has been the idea that it is not their perceived identity which means anything about you (i.e. you are awesome because they are awesome and like you) but rather your treatment of them which means something about you (i.e. you are kind to them and this kindness constitutes your goodness).
2373
2374So generally, an obsession reveals the presence of a weak sense of self and a low level of ethical cultivation i.e. maturity. But don't be too hard on yourself - it means you're trying to learn and grow by working through some lesson in the obsession.
2375
2376'The victimocracy has repudiated intellectual freedom and cultural constraints while chafing at economic freedom; the new right, meanwhile, repudiates non-discrimination, seeing it as a battering ram aimed at demolishing the rest of the civilized order.' | Some Hidden Infrastructures of Civilization
2377
2378Wherever there is civilization, there are victims, therefore your claim that (if I'm understanding) victimhood is anti-civilizational is based on a mystique, not reality.
2379
2380If by mystique you mean the victimary has a reciprocal relationship with firstness, then yes I agree. But this balance or tension between two moral principles which bind the center to the periphery is nevertheless real - it's the fundamental ontological position of being mapped large on society.
2381
2382i.e. it's consciousness as language referring to the other.
2383
2384'The victimocracy has repudiated intellectual freedom and cultural constraints while chafing at economic freedom; the new right, meanwhile, repudiates non-discrimination, seeing it as a battering ram aimed at demolishing the rest of the civilized order.' | Some Hidden Infrastructures of Civilization
2385
2386Exactly! That's why the antithesis articulated by GA is so important - the victimary is inherently discivilizational. Equality is how the inferior bring down the strong, fairness is how the indolent swindle the energetic, and freedom is how duty is sloughed off.
2387
2388What should you do when you meet a Narcissist? Run?
2389
2390Very nice!
2391
2392One key in the ego analysis would be that whatever we call false self is also created in part by the projections of other people. So it was created together, not ex nihilo by some naughty little narcissist - just like we are always cocreating reality.
2393
2394Narcissists seem like they are not co-creating reality, like they want all the marbles.
2395
2396'The victimocracy has repudiated intellectual freedom and cultural constraints while chafing at economic freedom; the new right, meanwhile, repudiates non-discrimination, seeing it as a battering ram aimed at demolishing the rest of the civilized order.' | Some Hidden Infrastructures of Civilization
2397
2398I think it will be over when it can't be sustained anymore. Peak economy will equal peak victimocracy. Without abundant cheap energy to hoover up natural resources nobody will suffer fools, free-riders and the falsely entitled.
2399
2400Women never "achieved" anything through feminism. Technology allowed them to enter the workplace at the same time the economy demanded it. And technology will force them out at the same time it no longer needs them.
2401
2402Technology has let us turn first fire, then coal, and finally oil into people. Now it's thorium or bust. I call bust.
2403
2404'The victimocracy has repudiated intellectual freedom and cultural constraints while chafing at economic freedom; the new right, meanwhile, repudiates non-discrimination, seeing it as a battering ram aimed at demolishing the rest of the civilized order.' | Some Hidden Infrastructures of Civilization
2405
2406Couldn't agree more. Glad the GAblog is still kicking strong. There is nothing worse than the victimocracy and contempt is the good and proper treatment of the same.
2407
2408For the record, there is nothing wrong with discrimination - only a charlatan would tell you otherwise.
2409
2410What should you do when you meet a Narcissist? Run?
2411
2412It depends on what your problem with narcissists is:
2413
2414Do they make you feel ignored? Critical? Do you express criticism at them? What keeps you from doing it? - guilt?
2415
2416All 3 options can ultimately be an ego defense of your own. Running because you can't handle conflict? Fighting to dominate to avoid feeling overwhelmed or manipulated? Helping the insecure person so you don't feel bad, or get to feel good?
2417
2418It all becomes incoherent without understanding why you are doing what you are doing.
2419
2420You can actually do either #1, 2 or 3 as long as you do it as an expression of your deepest values. All that aside I say:
2421
24221 - Not going to help unless you can do it assertively and articulate why you need to go in a way that doesn't rely on a victim/victimizer narrative.
24232 - Fighting is about protecting other people and things you care about, not your ego. Fighting to protect your ego is not going to help.
24243 - Given that you can't help someone who needs help, I think the most important response is how does that sobering fact motivate you to act? - given the limits of ones own capacity?
2425I avoid narcissistic strangers because I can't help them, fight threatening narcissists because I can't help them, and try to be kind to narcissists who are close to me because I can't help them.
2426
2427The Story of Randy Stair, 24 year old who killed 3 and then himself in a grocery store | "Yeah I know your thinking I could've gotten help, but the truth is, that wouldn't be me. Me being on medication, sitting in therapy, no, that alters who you are, that's not me. Never would be."
2428
2429Love Mr. Meteoker
2430
2431Jordan Peterson - YouTube?s New Father Figure
2432
2433This!
2434
2435Has corporate brand marketing of products co-opted identity politics or has identity politics co-opted capitalist market forces?
2436
2437Interesting take - not sure about "allowed to exist." Do you mean this literally as in TPTB are behind this with agency, or is it a metaphor?
2438
2439I think that marketing creates the sense of a metaphysical story or culture that one can live into - much like identity groups. The ascriptive qualities exist in reality (like blackness) but what these mean gets confused with platonic objects (as if blackness itself exists beyond any particular black person) and itself means something.
2440
2441I don't want to clean my apartment. How do you solve this problem?
2442
2443Sure thing - good talking with you.
2444
2445Has corporate brand marketing of products co-opted identity politics or has identity politics co-opted capitalist market forces?
2446
2447Line of the day: "The political version of disposable income." That's gold! I'm going to use that, credit to you of course.
2448
2449Pretty compelling angle - people were always narcissists - things just used to be more important.
2450
2451I don't want to clean my apartment. How do you solve this problem?
2452
2453I think he makes a powerful case that everyones values are pretty similar in general character - who and what you care about (or why you don't).
2454
2455Has corporate brand marketing of products co-opted identity politics or has identity politics co-opted capitalist market forces?
2456
2457There are a few good Baudrillard readers, but also many PDF's available on line. I believe The Mirror of Production and The Political Economy of the Sign are on point here. Also specifically Part II of The Consumer Society - Myths and Structures.
2458
2459Many of these are free through University websites - not pirated. But I can't help beyond that since it's been a long time since I found them.
2460
2461Has corporate brand marketing of products co-opted identity politics or has identity politics co-opted capitalist market forces?
2462
2463Buadrillard has some excellent content on the producer/consumer deconstruction in his post-marxist writings.
2464
2465Being objectified ain't what you think it is...
2466
2467Sounds good! Looking forward to speaking with you as always!
2468
2469Being objectified ain't what you think it is...
2470
2471That's fair - but I'd rejoinder that a "relationship" like "society" are metaphysical, and exist in your head. They refer to inner objects, not real ones.
2472
2473e.g. Tetsugakusei is real, and the blond beast is real but the blond beasts relationship to Tetsugakusei exists in theblondbeast's head and nowhere else, while Tetsugakusei's relationship to theblondbeast exists in Tetsugakusei's head and nowhere else. However, both Tetsugakusei and theblondbeast share belief in a metaphysical internal object called the relationship which exists as shared language or an institutional fact in Searl's linguistics. Not sure where Lacaan would land on those claims.
2474
2475So the self is not displaced - rather it is best understood as a referant to others.
2476
2477I.E. the self is that part of us which is being toward others.
2478
2479Being objectified ain't what you think it is...
2480
2481I still remain unclear generally unclear whether Lacaan was saying anything. How is this any different than:
2482
2483The phallus derives a sense of mysterious importance by being referred to directly and indirectly, qua taboo. Metaphorically, in the same way - this relationship happens to other people and things, like women, and the same feelings can be repeated from the original situation - causing confusion between the present and the past?
2484
2485And, most importantly - the object is not the source of desire. The object acquires it's power (as stimulus) from the desire of others - which is why it seems like a mystery and why objects never satisfy.
2486
2487Desire, and everything which follows, is conditioned primarily from motivated attention. Does this lead to understanding narcissism as people who struggle with accepting that they want and need your attention?
2488
2489I wish this subreddit was poor with content -- when it was bad it was Bad. Now it's just "eh". Not Eh. eh. Are you OK? (I couldn't pick between this cover, or a Stevie Wonder song.) Be interesting even if irreverent.
2490
2491As far as I'm concerned, it's easy to wax philosophical when nothing is going on. Either (a) we're living in increasingly interesting times, or (b) I'm feeling increasingly interested in our times.
2492
2493For instance - why wring ones hands about an increasingly polarized polity? Why not rejoice that finally, your enemies have at last revealed themselves!
2494
2495As an aside, worth another marketing post - **Has corporate brand marketing of products co-opted identity politics or has identity politics co-opted capitalist market forces? Discuss among yourselves.
2496
2497I'll make a new thread.
2498
2499Consider one's control, creation of TTFSO.
2500
2501So part of life is trying to be a stimulus to make good things happen in your environment, and also trying to avoid stimuli that make bad things happen. This is mainly because your sense of what things mean seems out of your control, i.e. it seems like truth exists - which it does - and it seems like you can communicate about it directly - which you can't.
2502
2503Controlling others is a substitute for controlling yourself, by which I specifically mean protecting the ego from the shocks of shame, guilt, terror and despair.
2504
2505The solution is to control what things mean to you, which is not a change in thinking it is a change in caring.
2506
2507I don't want to clean my apartment. How do you solve this problem?
2508
2509First, sorry for the mistake on AFHV comparison. I'd correct that to say that AFHV is not charecteristic of the art of our time - you're missing a general characterization which is pretty strong about the level of complexity of an art form - like saying "because we have cartoons in the funny paper, our art isn't that different from midieval 2 dimensional church paintings which lack perspective."
2510
2511I see what you mean, but don't think you've made a very strong point. The reason I think this is you are creating equivalencies which I don't think are equivalent at all.
2512
2513By and large I agree with your point here:
2514
2515I suppose my point is that even if our culture is "less violent", it doesn't mean that our psychology has become less violent, merely that our society has redirected our violent impulses, and they still find an out occasionally.
2516
2517But you're not distinguishing between violent action and the repression of violent impulses in order to substantiate "people are as violent as ever" and as such are missing Apfelbaum's point. I think you've minimized the importance of this line of thinking in order to support your claim that people are the same as ever.
2518
2519I don't want to clean my apartment. How do you solve this problem?
2520
2521Not sure what you're talking about - the point he is making seems self evidently true to me with a fairly superficial knowledge of history and comparative anthropology. Take your first quoted section, for example - it's obviously true that people in the west are less comfortable with real violence than at any point in recorded history. You seem to strongly disagree - but your comparisons are not accurate. The public torture of Damiens the Regicide, for instance, cannot be compared to "football in the groin" of Americas funniest home videos.
2522
2523I don't want to clean my apartment. How do you solve this problem?
2524
2525I don't ordinarily recommend people who have been on Oprah, but I think Steven Stosney gets the unconscious and can express it in the only immediately actionable format I can think of. Check out his articles and videos and let me know what you think.
2526
2527In this instance you may find, for instance, that you care about beauty as a core value. Exploring that thinking, including any feelings which come up which make you want to reject the importance of beauty, amounts to exploring the defenses which protecting against psychological pain.
2528
2529I.E. these things get deep quickly because a failure to motivate to clean your room may reveal a resignation which is a defense against a hopelessness about the meaning of your life. The good news is that by working through these issues you can find that ordinary life activities can become very meaningful and your life can really improve drastically.
2530
2531"a sort of zen of detachment that comes with realizing that you are part of a very specific group of people who think the slow boil of Europe into a cauldron of tribal conflict is a bad idea, and that we should not become distraught... when racinated minorities attack a de-racinated majority."
2532
2533Do you distinguish between "attachment" and "caring" or "concern?" The good life seems to me one you'd have to appreciate while you're living it - caring about your life, country and culture seems to flow naturally from that orientation. If you think your life is worth living - wanting your lifestyle to survive and prosper comes from these motivations.
2534
2535I don't want to clean my apartment. How do you solve this problem?
2536
2537Another way of translating Apfelbaum's object relations point is to say in order to feel motivated you have to connect the action to your values.
2538
2539The question of "why do you care if your room is clean or not?" and the feelings which arise around that are what there is to work through. As silly as it may seem, ultimately you will connect this to why you care about being alive.
2540
2541A Generation of Sociopaths review - how Trump and other Baby Boomers ruined the world
2542
2543What did you consider ironic about my comment?
2544
2545A Generation of Sociopaths review - how Trump and other Baby Boomers ruined the world
2546
2547You've got it brother - it's that old blessing/curse thing: "May you live in interesting times."
2548
2549I may be wrong, but I'm not confused. I think it at least can be said that we will live through interesting times - like history making, not like new iphone making.
2550
2551As an afterthought - by lower standard of living I don't mean worse lives. Like you I think it can get more meaningful, but lower standard of living means less income/energy use available.
2552
2553A Generation of Sociopaths review - how Trump and other Baby Boomers ruined the world
2554
2555Interesting - looks like we're closer than it first appeared. Thanks for the repartee.
2556
2557One reason I'm skeptical about our potential for a better future (or our ability to make anything on purpose, let alone a utopia) is my understanding of energy as fundamentally underpinning value.
2558
2559You can print as much paper as you want, but there is only so much energy to go around. And ultimately any activity which does not produce a net energy return on investment is going to fail. You can't work a three day week for the same reason you can't retire - nobody can produce that much surplus value (energy) during their lifetime. It's only possible based on skimming off the value of other people. This works fine under two scenarios: (1) A growing population, (2) an increasing consumption of resources.
2560
2561It doesn't even matter if we make robots. Robots would make it worse because technology consumes energy, it does not produce it.
2562
2563We can craft all the narratives we want - I just think the future will have a lower standard of living on average whether we like it or not, and there is nothing to be done about it. Try to be comfortable, and above all, enjoy yourself, it's later than you think.
2564
2565Personally I'd rather have Star Trek future - see the stars, colonize the universe. But I bet you lunch it's never gonna happen - science fiction will prove to be mostly fiction. Technology will be the biggest disappointment since the death of God.
2566
2567A Generation of Sociopaths review - how Trump and other Baby Boomers ruined the world
2568
2569I think your debt-thing also plays into this. Why should anyone owe debt to anybody?Yeah, in the short term there might be some fairness-issues involved, but in the long-term you should or must have a vision of a society that somehow does away with this concept, except maybe as a very mutual, egalitarian thing or the special case of older people getting a decent, yet humble retirement if they need/want it.
2570
2571For starters, we're never retiring. It existed for two, maybe three generations, it is a huge scam and it will be gone forever by the time you'll need it.
2572
2573In terms of debt, well, ultimately you don't have to repay it. You don't have to keep your promises, either, and you don't have to follow through on what you said you were going to do. Three books you could consider on the subject are Debt: The first 5000 years by David Graeber, The Geneology of Morals, and The Making of the Indebted Man by Lazaretto. I might add to that The Immorality of Promising. The first three are available as free downloads with a little searching on the web.
2574
2575As a short term solution, and this is a little off track, I think the world will need a debt jubilee. Steven Keen has some interesting information on this, as does Graeber.
2576
2577I agree there are many perversions and much fraud in the current money system - but no, I have no desire for a world without debt/money etc. though it has and can take many forms as you'll see if you consider Graeber.
2578
2579I must also confess that any notion of a "peaceful" world or some utopia strikes me as boring. I realize many people seem to be inspired by a fantasy kindergarten of the future where everyone gets along and is nice to each other and the government plays the role of school teacher, distributing snacks and making sure nobody has anything to cry about. In addition to thinking it's impossible - I don't want it. I don't think other people do, either. But whether I am right about that or not - I will accept responsibility for the fact that I don't care and won't pretend to. It's all on my shoulders and I make no recourse to evidence or evolution of anything like that.
2580
2581So yes, a safe world with lots of crafted equality accomplished through central planning and redistribution sounds, well, boring - even if it's possible, I think its a contemptible idea and I think people should oppose it aesthetically if for no other reason.
2582
2583Thanks for your longer exposition on how you see things. I'm still having trouble following you so I don't have anything else to add.
2584
2585..............Enough with the Narcissism.
2586
2587I think it will hold up as long as "the spice keeps flowing." By which I mean as long as the current insurance healthcare system holds up.
2588
2589Another way to say this is It will last until we can't afford to spend lots of money to fail.
2590
2591A Generation of Sociopaths review - how Trump and other Baby Boomers ruined the world
2592
2593I'm not saying you should never take from some and give to others. But you should feel bad about doing so, not good.
2594
2595The idea of societal fairness or goodness=narcissism+entitlement?
2596
2597Your question implies a tautology. If you define an outcome of equality as good, then of course it can't be bad. You have to think about what you are willing to do in order to achieve your desired outcome. That's ethical thinking.
2598
2599The word "stealing" was rhetorical. The point I was trying to make is that I don't think we should continue down the path of affording healthcare through expansions of insurance because this has indebted the nation.
2600
2601I don't quite follow your sense of morality or indignation about the modern condition. Could you try and state your position and questions more specifically? I'd be happy to answer any questions.
2602
2603In regards to what I think we should do about healthcare, I endorse the plan of Karl Deninger which focuses on lowering healthcare costs and eliminating fraud rather than expanding access to insurance.
2604
2605But back to the OP not to get too off track: Part of the boomer logic was "we spent too much money" and part of the quoted solution is "we should be spending more money." My point is that there isn't any money. Whether you want to give your children health insurance or not doesn't matter because you are already giving them debt. If you give somebody something along with a bill for it, you are not giving them a gift. You are forcing them to pay for it in the future. By which I mean we should only have those social programs which don't pass debt to future generations, meaning only spend what you can afford in the present.
2606
2607I don't go for the "harsh mother nature" thing. I also don't fall for the boo-hooing of those who think that there are no consequences to resorting to using the government to provide charity by means of acquiring debt. People can do this if they want to, but I won't let it slide by that they are being good. They are not. Their intention is to help reduce present suffering but in doing so they are causing other problems. At best this is self interested, for which I don't necessarily fault them.
2608
2609Transformation of the hysteric into the borderline
2610
2611It would have to be awfully frustrating to try and be crazy only to have everyone co-opt your performance as grist for their mill. Then again - since you know this will happen, isn't the show for them after all? Nothing left to do but rub feces on the wall, record punk rock music, or cut yourself.
2612
2613The highest form of rebellion is to have faith - which of course means to feel entitled to live your fantasy, notwithstanding reality.
2614
2615A Generation of Sociopaths review - how Trump and other Baby Boomers ruined the world
2616
2617A couple things: (1) That boomers were exceptional, even if exceptionally bad. (2) Relatedly, they had the capacity to have done better than they did. (3) Somehow the bizarre point that free healthcare is not more the same stupid shit that got us into the problem.
2618
2619Whatever they try to do will be doubling down.
2620
2621Give your money to your children, then move in with them and help them raise the grandkids. Everything which keeps you from doing that is the problem, for which they are free to make amends.
2622
2623Interestingly, he has a similar take as I do on the impact of the cold war on boomers.
2624
2625The point on healthcare can't be stressed enough. It's based entirely on the logic that its Ok to steal from people because there is so much wealth. It's all gone now - everything of value has been spoken of save the dirt - which is washing rapidly out to sea.
2626
2627It's not a generation of sociopaths (i.e. people who don't think Kimme's son is a sad story). It's a generation of narcissists (i.e. people who simultaneously want you to validate their goodness while they beggar you and your children to pay for their ego.)
2628
2629Re "leave me, stop it"
2630
2631Thanks for saying that.
2632
2633Re "leave me, stop it"
2634
2635Here's a metaphorical way of looking at it - people who hear voices need company. Try to tune into other people, remembering that paranoia is a projection of fear, and you'll see people are willing to tune into you - even if you're feeling chaotic. These moments are what heal.
2636
2637Denninger's Healthcare Fix and Mental Illness
2638
2639The supply of physicians is only loosely related to the increase in cost and volume. See this infamous chart on the relative increase of administrators vs physicians. https://fee.org/articles/the-chart-that-could-undo-the-us-healthcare-system/
2640
2641Denninger's Healthcare Fix and Mental Illness
2642
2643Yes, thanks for the post. I'm not saying his proposal is easy, but it does seem to address the problem.
2644
2645Denninger's Healthcare Fix and Mental Illness
2646
2647I'll bring freeze dried bourbon.
2648
2649Denninger's Healthcare Fix and Mental Illness
2650
2651Yes, I think this double bind amounts to being mad about being poorer in a very complicated way compared to previous generations. Nevertheless, they are paying a higher tax of sorts by the increasing cost of insurance - if one concedes that the price is rising (compared to other countries) on account of policy decisions.
2652
2653One problem with the cost nexus is that the profits on insurance companies are limited. So the only way they can make more money is for the volume of healthcare spending to increase. This is the overlap between insurance interests and pharma/medicine interests. Sometimes it seems to me like a gigantic potlatch of wealth destruction.
2654
2655Denninger's Healthcare Fix and Mental Illness
2656
2657It is a little dismal. I don't think we'll do anything, either, besides push the problem around a little. Healthcare will collapse the economy long before we get around to trying something else.
2658
2659Denninger's Healthcare Fix and Mental Illness
2660
2661In answer to your first question, yes - it is problematic to assign healthcare costs to the healthy which is why the interests of insurers need to be separated from the interests of medicine/pharma - otherwise you're left with a racket of expanding healthcare consumption by placing the cost primarily on healthy people.
2662
2663The issue of billing insurance instead of charging prices is intimately related to the problem and the accusation of fraud - in that negotiated payment bargaining by insurers would have to be removed as well. Prices would have to be published and charged fairly to anyone making payment - be they cash or an insurer.
2664
2665Denninger's Healthcare Fix and Mental Illness
2666
2667First reply:
2668
2669Here is a decent slate history o of health care from a different bias angle: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/chatterbox/2007/03/a_short_history_of_health_care.html
2670
2671The origin of health insurance I think has to consider the war time origin of employer provided benefits in an environment of wage controls. It began as a scam of sorts, an end-around to compete for labor. (Notwithstanding previous heath insurance provided through fraternal organizations and whatnot.)
2672
2673Why this lead to relative price explosion is a more complicated story. I think there are at least three primary factors involved that get confused. The first is that markets want to assign healthcare costs to sick people. The second is that medicine/pharma wants the general consumption of healthcare to rise. The third is that insurers want mass participation by healthy people in the insurance pool.
2674
2675Personally, I think the 2nd is the biggest problem - wanting the consumption of healthcare services to rise. This is very different from wanting the health of the population to improve, and is the most important reason in my opinion to decouple for-profit health care from government subsidies.
2676
2677And what we have is neither market driven nor socialized medicine - but a monopolistic racket/make-work program for administrators.
2678
2679But to get to specific questions and be less rhetorical: Do you object to the first point - that all healthcare providers must post public prices for their services, allowing consumers to compare prices?
2680
2681Denninger's Healthcare Fix and Mental Illness
2682
2683Thank you! I will have to consider it at length.
2684
2685Denninger's Healthcare Fix and Mental Illness
2686
2687I'd love to hear more of your critique. I'm pessimistic, too - but as a non expert in the issue I found his proposal pretty compelling (his minimizing short term problems notwithstanding).
2688
2689In which ways isn't this experience my fault?
2690
2691Basically someone else in your early history made you doubt yourself. This doubt - originally caused by the invalidation of others - in the present feels like part of you.
2692
2693In which ways isn't this experience my fault?
2694
2695One place I'd start is distinguishing objective amoral cause/effect thinking from moral thinking which attempts to account for feelings.
2696
2697For instance, if one feels humiliated after being fired from a job - there is one way of thinking which accounts for the termination, and one way which accounts for the humiliation.
2698
2699But it all gets mushed up in a gestalt.
2700
2701The question implies the implicit problem of ego analysis not feeling entitled to ones experience.
2702
2703So, to be a total shit, I have to challenge the form of the question. The problem itself implied by the question is a lack of entitlement.
2704
2705Anyone asking the question doesn't feel entitled to their actual experience of reality - which in my parlance means they have internalized the rejecting superego of others.
2706
2707Denninger's Healthcare Fix and Mental Illness
2708
2709Sorry! I suck at computers: https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=231949
2710
2711"Blending together a scrambled cocktail of good old Russophobia, Bob Woodward, and a particularly suspenseful episode of Homeland, liberals in the United States have seemingly regressed into a decalescent state of collective melancholia." - The Baffler
2712
2713they are so politically correct that their villains need to be white
2714
2715This!
2716
2717What's the grandios self?
2718
2719This is a pretty extreme example. Kohut's use of "grandiose self" is not truly intended to be pejorative or judgemental - i.e. it refers to almost everyone, definitely most people who are suffering, and isn't directly related to ethical failings on their part.
2720
2721But yes, the most common reason for domestic violence and child abuse is that the partner or child makes the "abuser" feel like a failure. But this is not always a contradiction of a grandiose self - it may be a much more realistic position - as in the person really is failing at something important to them, which is much more akin to your example - in which the ability to buy presents is out of touch with reality, but the desire is not.
2722
2723What's the grandios self?
2724
2725It's a defensive posture or a way you'd like to see yourself which is inauthentic - and here's the important part - because it's designed to make you feel immune to the things you are actually suffering from.
2726
2727It was part of Kohout's early work about development. Basically a grandiose self is a defense against a more realistic yet dreadful sense of powerlessness and vulnerability (i.e. kids are defenseless without their parents, hate this, and desperately want to be otherwise). When things go well people move through disillusionment toward a more realistic, yet free, sense of themselves. When it goes poorly (i.e. no help to cope with disillusionment or active interference) some part of a persons personality never moves through disillusionment on on to more realistic and enjoyable goals.
2728
2729The "dating crisis" is just a demographic issue not a crisis of female psychology.
2730
2731You're right I agree that attraction in certain contexts can be problematized. I think it's important however that when one attributes ones desire to anything beyond "I want X" with a throw away "I want X because evolutionary psychology" or "women want alpha males because evolution" you're probably disavowing agency - like "women don't want me because I'm not alpha" or more basically "I don't feel like I deserve the women I want."
2732
2733Only getting to the last one let's you figure out what's really going on with you.
2734
2735The "dating crisis" is just a demographic issue not a crisis of female psychology.
2736
2737Can you unpack ideals vs goals or desires vs values for me? An ideal like "having a hot wife" is very different from "being a good husband."
2738
2739The "dating crisis" is just a demographic issue not a crisis of female psychology.
2740
2741Yes - because most things we feel bad about we project upon others. It's not simply "Hey - they are acting in their best interests - nothing wrong with that." It's always something more - like they are being inconsiderate or worse, swept along like a genetic robot by evolution.
2742
2743Calling people selfish isn't selfish - it's dismissive - which is what other peoples selfishness feels like.
2744
2745God
2746
2747The answer might not be what you're looking for, but you'll know. Another way to say that is that the doubt implied by the question will disappear and be replaced by your actions feeling full of personal meaning and purpose.
2748
2749You'll also know because at first most of your actions will be met with the resistance of your superego or the felt expectations of others.
2750
2751How to get there depends on where you are. Most men who struggle with this seem to me to be too distant from understanding their motivations. Don't think about "feelings" and "sensitivity." Think about motivation and meaning.
2752
2753This is personal, but I happen to think everyone's core values are pretty similar - it's just the surface values which get weird. For instance - having a value like "wanting your kids to remain chaste" is really only good because it's about protecting them. It's about getting in touch with core goodness.
2754
2755One way to think about it is to think about what you'd really regret on your death bed. Would you really regret, for example, never seeing the pyramids? Or would you be likely to regret something like not having had better relationships with the people you care about - maybe, say, that they never really knew how important they were to you?
2756
2757There are many ways to the goal - most of which represent working through blame and resentment, but also forgiving oneself/others simultaneously - the two always come together.
2758
2759The "dating crisis" is just a demographic issue not a crisis of female psychology.
2760
2761Great point!
2762
2763The "dating crisis" is just a demographic issue not a crisis of female psychology.
2764
2765Most people paint "hypergamy" as selfishness. How about women feel guilty about having contempt for a man who can't protect them?
2766
2767I.E. For men its important to have an attractive partner because in part you can't deal with feeling bad about not being attracted to your partner? Covering these things is a manic-defense and a much too convenient appeal to very poorly thought out evolutionary psychology.
2768
2769It's easier to appreciate your partner when they give you something to work with.
2770
2771The "dating crisis" is just a demographic issue not a crisis of female psychology.
2772
2773Best response!
2774
2775I would rejoinder I no longer accept TLP's "rage bait" instead it is "contempt bait" as in a justification to hide guilt.
2776
2777After all, MRA's explain being bad to women as a justification based on women's bad behavior. Women explain feminism based on an appeal to men's bad behavior. Perhaps a rejoinder to maturity is "Are you going to let a girls difficult attitude be an excuse to be bad to women?"
2778
2779I don't think adults can really truly believe "He/she started it!" in their heart of hearts, so need constant validation for these world views.
2780
2781In terms of social mobility I think you're spot on - the missing piece is the fact that after God, there is no ethical force opposing resentment. The century of isms (racism, sexism) is about the justification of resentment. It always ends in slaughter, by the way.
2782
2783I'll take the "under" on your over-under of 30 years. I wish I was younger, it will be quite a show - and I'll hate to be old in hard times.
2784
2785God
2786
2787In short, yes. I went looking for much less than I needed, realized what truly mattered, and found my way back to my fellow man. Opened me back up to spirituality in general - connecting with a sense of fundamental worthiness mixed with what you could call original sin or deep negativity/resentment/strife. It parallels the best of evangelical Christianity. While I remain undecided about what I believe the "truth" is in life - I am certainly culturally Christian and have a renewed appreciation for Christianity and some buddhism.
2788
2789God
2790
2791Yes. Get in touch with your core values and whatever it means to feel spiritual will start to show up. Dogma aside, the impact of successful therapy is identical to spiritual salvation.
2792
2793Life can be immensely meaningful in a way that does not rely on dogma and superstition. And as awful as it may sound to cynics, you just have to follow your heart. If that sparks dismissive feelings - there is nothing else to talk about other than those dismissive feelings.
2794
2795Discourse this
2796
2797Great share!
2798
2799Art will be uplifting again once life becomes sufficiently hard that we can't make it through the day without beauty. Until then we will remain alone on pleasure island.
2800
2801Hotel Concierge: The Subprime Directive
2802
2803You're probably right about about the war machine, but I think the tech will be disappointing. I'm of the opinion that futurism of any kind is going to fail and be a bigger impact on mass psyche than the death of God - because at least it didn't seem like god was about our own vanity. The failure of technology will be an ultimate humbling of human potential.
2804
2805You know, like if it's true that nobody is ever going to the stars - that sinking in...gonna be tough. It keeps a lot of people going and lets them ignore a lot of problems - health problems, inequality problems, lack of meaning in their life problems...
2806
2807I could be wrong, but I'm dying to find out.
2808
2809Hotel Concierge: The Subprime Directive
2810
2811You're welcome! My pleasure. I mean more along the lines of a moderate "dropping out." Not in the 70's sense of communal farms, but in the personal sense of "not wanting an i-pad" in the TLP parlance.
2812
2813Hotel Concierge: The Subprime Directive
2814
2815I don't have much more than speculation here but a few things:
2816
2817I think a combination of energy crisis and debt crisis will yield a very different future than most people think - neither Star Trek nor Mad Max - but something more like everything getting slightly worse from now on.
2818I think the new christianity is already arising among those faiths who have either never adopted global-multiculturalism or have now turned away from it. How the evangelical/missionary movement handles this will be a curious thing to see.
2819As energy costs increase after the credit system collapses, I predict there will be an enormous move towards lower levels of technology.
2820I believe that whoever God is, or whatever that experience is, is still within every one of us. A reorienting of values away from materialism I believe is still right around the corner
2821In regards to your last point I think my relevancy is confined to those few people here and in my life who I talk to - but those are the ones I care about anyway, so I'm fine with that.
2822
2823I don't mean any of this pessimistically, either. I'm not talking about the end of the world, but big changes. As hard as the downfall of the Roman empire was for the citizens, keep in mind the middle ages remains one of our favorite realms of fantasy. Hidden in every fear of collapse is a deep yearning for change. Thus I say with John Michael Greer: Collapse now and avoid the rush.
2824
2825Circumcision is Child Abuse
2826
2827I also think this is a classic example of semantic pragmatism in action. The only people I've met who care about this issue are people with that curious taste for literalism. I think the topic's very 1+1=2ness is what stands out. People are obsessed with babies lacking consent.
2828
2829Bingo again! You have some very astute comments on this. You correctly identify that extravagant rhetoric conceals shallow thinking.
2830
2831Circumcision is Child Abuse
2832
2833I think you'll find the people involved are more likely prone to an obsessive idea of trauma than the rest of the population.
2834
2835Bingo!
2836
2837Circumcision is Child Abuse
2838
2839I don't want to play a game with you, and your continued suspicion and accusations have made this an unpleasant conversation. This will be my last response.
2840
2841It's not a non-sequitur, unless you mean that as an insult, not a description. The title of the post is "Circumcision is Child Abuse." The gravaman of the linked article is "Circumcision is Child Abuse." If you don't think a reasonable way to respond to that is to disagree (circumcision is not child abuse)and provide an example of a related activity (female "circumcision") which I consider to be child abuse, followed by a contrast with male circumcision (which I don't consider to be child abuse) for the purpose of pointing out differences between abusive and non abusive actions then I hope you understand we have nothing further to talk about on the issue.
2842
2843Circumcision is Child Abuse
2844
2845My original post introduced FGM as a contrast to circumcision in support of my point that the latter shouldn't be called abuse - a much less strident and rhetorical term than terms like "torture" used by the author of the article.
2846
2847Another user then challenged this point, claiming equivalency. I responded to him at which point you challenged me about my responses to him. I answered you, and you quoted from my answer, but at this point we were talking more about a side bar conversation with another poster than the article. If I am misunderstanding you, please help me out because I don't understand what you're looking for.
2848
2849And no - I'm not Jewish. What else would you like to know?
2850
2851Circumcision is Child Abuse
2852
2853I'd like you to tone down your accusations please. The quoted text arose based on comments in the thread about the issue, and is not specifically attributed to the author and the article. What do you want my opinion about that I haven't already answered?
2854
2855I think people worried about male circumcision are probably over-reacting but remain open. I think people who equate it to female genital mutilation (which is not everyone, and is not the authors of the quoted articles point) are poorly informed or disingenuous. I think the article was hyperbolic and of low value, primarily for this reason.
2856
2857Hotel Concierge: The Subprime Directive
2858
2859(1) Yes. Christianity best exists apart from the world, and falls apart when it obtains hegemony. See the downfall of the holy-roman-empire and the downfall the WASPy anglo-amercian empire to which we front row seats. The reason is that the gospel experience is one of transcending resentment/scapegoating. Christianity has historically been effective at battling materialism. Buddhism and hinduism also have, but they bulwark western capitalism since they are not western. (2) I actually think, from Girard, that Christianity is unique in its treatment of resentment based on the role of the scapegoat. Buddhism accomplishes something similar along a different path. I don't think secular third places can do it because the raison d'etre of metaphysical beliefs is to create community solidarity. (3) Yep. Christianity is best understood this way! This is why the true thread of Christianity is about being apart from the world.
2860
2861Circumcision is Child Abuse
2862
2863I don't really have one. I've never thought about it until other people bring it up with passion. I think parents in this regard should do what fits their culture. I'm circumcised, have no resentment about being so, and am suspicious of the claims of the anti-circumcision movement. I'd probably have male children circumcised if I have them. If you're a WASP, that is.
2864
2865This is all about male circumcision, which I see no evidence of having a negative impact later in life. This is completely opposite of female circumcision which does demonstrable harm.
2866
2867All this being said, I have no objection to parents who abstain. Pesonally I know being uncircumsized would have been worse for me. Getting picked on and feeling different, etc. "Because everyone else is doing it" isn't a great reason.
2868
2869My biggest problem with the issue is conflating male and female circumcision. That I think is either poorly thought out or disingenuous.
2870
2871Hotel Concierge: The Subprime Directive
2872
2873I've been rethinking shame recently. There seems to me to be a very different primitive kind of shame (not wanting to be seen) which I understand as a precursor to developing a sense of ones own value/values. But there is also a kind of shame that is based on a more normal adult desire to be valuable to your world. I'd distinguish the latter from guilt in that it isn't necessarily directly hurting anyone - just failing a sort of masculine drive.
2874
2875I think shame in the guilt/resenment cluster could come from the gravity of how pervasive this pattern can be for someone. Shame hides the fact that many people waste their lives on this all consuming character defense construct.
2876
2877Hotel Concierge: The Subprime Directive
2878
2879I think legitimate resentment is what you refer to - the hatred of the weak for the strong. The problem is that people almost always are much less powerless than they feel and act.
2880
2881So generally it is not the other that prevents us from doing what we want it is our own sense of guilt. The projection of this guilt onto the hated other is what hides the process.
2882
2883The kid in your example could have snuck out, for instance - as millions of kids have always done. Or they could have just gone anyway and had a direct power struggle with their parent.
2884
2885Circumcision is Child Abuse
2886
2887I think you are dismissing intent too quickly. That point aside, the outcome is also different.
2888
2889Hotel Concierge: The Subprime Directive
2890
2891Yes, absolutely. You can have a relationship where one party is angry, but over the long run you don't see one where only one party is resentful. Sad as it may seem to reference him, Gottman has done some compelling research on this.
2892
2893Hotel Concierge: The Subprime Directive
2894
2895The specific thing I'm talking about is blaming people for a secondary phenomena, not a primary.
2896
2897A for-instance would be: Girlfriend criticizes you, you wind up resenting her. The long version of that is: Girlfriend criticizes you, this makes you feel ashamed (since there is always some truth behind these things), you get angry, suppress it because you feel guilty, and wind up resenting (blaming) her for making you feel guilty.
2898
2899The fact of the matter is the guilt is yours - because you love her and don't want to hurt her. The proper blame (causal explanation) is that she did, indeed, devalue you by her criticism.
2900
2901It probably wasn't her intention to do so, she just did it unconsciously to protect her ego.
2902
2903Beyond the affect I totally agree with you. I'm with those thinkers who believe that contempt/anger/resentment represents a social spectrum of shame. Contempt is down the food chain, anger among equals, and resentment up. Just perception by the beholder, of course.
2904
2905Ever hear this: "Well you're entitled to your opinion"
2906
2907Generally people "pretend" to have rational conversations when in reality they are having emotional conversations. When things get too personal for comfort, you wind up with a "You're entitled to your own opinion."
2908
2909If someone says that to you it either means (1) you're being an asshole and they can't deal with you, or (2) you've hit a sore spot and they are being too vulnerable. In either case, if you want to keep the conversation going you probably have to focus on being less threatening (e.g. respectful, calm or open).
2910
2911Hotel Concierge: The Subprime Directive
2912
2913Yes, the appropriate use for negative affect is protecting other people you care about, followed by your physical safety. But people consistently conflate defending life and lib with defending the go.
2914
2915What do you mean by rejected guilt? Did you mean projected? I would agree that resentment is a primary strategy in repressing guilt if that is the case.
2916
2917Where you find resentment, there you will find guilt. (Of the genuine remorse variety, not the fear of punishment variety.)
2918
2919Everyone who finally stops blaming their parents realizes on some level they have been too hard on them - and the impact of that realization produces remorse for a wasted life and a relationship which took two people to ruin, but only one to improve.
2920
2921Parents abuse their kids for youtube money
2922
2923Makes sense!
2924
2925Parents abuse their kids for youtube money
2926
2927Why can't the parents see that the hitting just hurts the kid more?
2928
2929They do, but the kid deserved it based on the guilt projection.
2930
2931Do the parents feel bad because their kid is crying or because they are bad parents?
2932
2933This can go all sorts of ways. My experience is that they usually feel depressed which is the result of the repression of the more obvious emotions.
2934
2935What they see in their child is badness - their own lack of value.
2936
2937Hotel Concierge: The Subprime Directive
2938
2939It's a feedback loop. If you have someone you are 5% apart from and you discount/devalue their perspective they are very unlikely to come closer to yours - because they are in the same situation. The response you get from them is not based on the reality of your difference (5%) but this plus the discount.
2940
2941We still disagree, but now you're also an asshole.
2942
2943Specifically, the ego defenses of person A (discounting/devaluing) triggers the ego defenses of person B. Once this happens both parties are now responding primarily to ego defenses. Cooperation requires at least one person who can maintain a good attitude in the face of being devalued (or narcissistic discounting if you'd prefer).
2944
2945Parents abuse their kids for youtube money
2946
2947Write that letter to CPS though - if for no other reason than to prove you care. We could setup a petition, at least to youtube?
2948
2949Hotel Concierge: The Subprime Directive
2950
2951The ego is "needy", the superego is how you relate to said needs - which may be to feel like a failure, or to feel "fed up" (angry? blaming?) as a defense against feeling like a failure, to the extent anger makes you feel temporarily powerful by virtue of having hormones coursing through your veins. Usually a depressive collapse follows when cortisol takes over.
2952
2953So, the reason you feel "needy" (which sounds like a put-down) is the effect of your superego.
2954
2955Someone with a positive superego who wants his girlfriends attention will tell an animated story about something positive which happened during his day - relating to his needs as desires to share and connect. And, no, this can't be faked - it has to be worked through.
2956
2957Hotel Concierge: The Subprime Directive
2958
2959Haha - just the ordinary guilt of writing off half of your countrymen as irredeemable.
2960
2961Hotel Concierge: The Subprime Directive
2962
2963Haha! I resemble that remark.
2964
2965Parents abuse their kids for youtube money
2966
2967I don't know. Seems to me like that could go both ways. Shaming the parents won't work, they will double down. It has to be a credible threat.
2968
2969Unfortunately the #1 thing which leads to parents beating their children is that the children won't stop crying - because the crying makes the parents feel bad and they project guilt on the kid. Life is rough.
2970
2971Hotel Concierge: The Subprime Directive
2972
2973This is just a guess but - What looks on the surface like anxiety isn't really her core vulnerability/anxiety which is probably being abandoned. So you could say being overtly needy is a defense against a more core anxiety - abondonment/deprivation/isolation.
2974
2975This strategy is less likely to provoke direct shame than it is to gradually make the partner feel fed up and like a failure.
2976
2977You could say the corollary to this is the guy who overtly feels like a looser. Women are more open with this because they are more used to receiving reassurance.
2978
2979Circumcision is Child Abuse
2980
2981I try to reserve terms like "abuse" to very narrow definitions - like purposeful harm or gross negligence. I think this is close, but is a different case than the female mutilation. The former is primarily a cultural body modification, the latter is actually intended for the purpose of reducing or illuminating sexual pleasure.
2982
2983Hotel Concierge: The Subprime Directive
2984
2985So a few corrections: He married his wife because her defense against anxiety is to blame/criticize him. This is already the role his superego has in his life. - making him feel like a naughty little boy who isn't good enough. Being punished in this way alienates him from the desire to call his wife and make her feel better - because it feels like he is already constantly being punished and is therefore compelled to a small fuck you, I'm not calling!* The wife accurately picks up the meaning of his gesture, and actually does punish him by implying he was bad to do what he did. The key is that it was the wife's goal to preserve her ego, not hurt his, but she was willing to hurt his in order to preserve hers. It is also the case that it was the husbands goal to defend his ego, not make his wife feel anxious, but he was willing to do so in order to defend himself. Concidentally, the only way out is to make caring for your partners core vulnerability (her anxiety or his shame) more important than defending your ego. To both the husband and the wife it looks as if their partner is a monster - and there is some truth to both of their perspectives. But this truth is superficially based on their actions of devaluing eachother - which makes them feel small - as a defense against the fact that their partner seems like a malicious and all powerful evil deity, i.e. confused with their superego.
2986
2987This relates to THC's point in that these cycles of mutual blaming are real and tend to spiral into violence or divorce for individuals and scapegoating and war in society.
2988
2989Hotel Concierge: The Subprime Directive
2990
2991So in THC's example the Liberals have contempt for the Trump voters, and the latter resent the former. Ordinarily people would feel some guilt about disparaging the character of someone who merely has different interests than them - so to avoid said guilt you make your opponent guilty of something in your mind. This guilt is projected guilt.
2992
2993As in Trump voters aren't merely your less fortunate countrymen whom deserve your loyalty and support - they are racist/sexist/homophobic. Liberals aren't simply your more fortunate countrymen whose understanding and support you need and desire - they are capricious, treasonous monsters.
2994
2995Hotel Concierge: The Subprime Directive
2996
2997I'll give you the short version and feel free to inquire for more detail. (Related reading: Christopher Bollas The Transformational Object, anything by Baudrillard.). THC has not made nor connected the following points, so consider them primarily mine. But I'll put the most important part first, which is the answer to the mystery question I quoted: The reason resentment promotes the growth of the resented object is that resentment devalues the ego of other people, and nothing seems more important to immature people than the defense of the ego.
2998
2999Psychological boundaries are maintained to a large degree by the emotion of contempt (See Julia Kristeva, Powers of Horror). These are the boundaries between "us" and "them."
3000
3001Among mature people, conscious awareness of this fact can tend to produce guilt, which moderates the response and allows cooperation rather than dismissal.
3002
3003Relative expressions of this emotion occur as resentment (up the shame ladder) anger (among equals) or contempt (down the shame ladder).
3004
3005Capitalism, by virtue of producing interchangeable goods, has co-opted the psychological tendency for humans to identify their ego with objects.
3006
3007One function of capitalism, the need for growth, leads to the promotion of ever expanding niches for products. This requires the creation of ever-expanding identities based on peoples desire for transformational experiences related to objects. (Buying the car means you've arrived, etc.).
3008
3009The proliferation of brands coincides with the proliferation of identities in local communities which were in previous generations more outward looking. I.E. Resentment is best saved for foreigners or stable class strata - and becomes chaotic, disorganizing and alienating when directed at your community more directly.
3010
3011The reason resentment promotes the growth of the resented object is that resentment devalues the ego of other people, and nothing seems more important to immature people than the defense of the ego.
3012
3013To a large extent, Christianity (and some budhism) is the only religion which ever broke the resentment trap (See Rene Girard). With the decline in Christianity we have seen an increase in secular religions of the isms (SJW morality projects). These religions represent **a return to archaic scapegoating and resentment).
3014
3015So to answer your three questions: (1) Capitalism is effecting all people to some degree, most people to a high degree. (2) I would probably accept that it may be impossible to tell if it is increasing, but it's object/target is changing from more stable historical forms. This feeling of movement is what makes it seem like increase. I.E. Few catholics resent protestants anymore - but many more people resent straight white men in their own communities than ever before. (3) In this reading it would be relative to the previous assortment of social boundaries.
3016
3017Baby Dove #RealMoms | The great thing about being a single mom is that there's no one there to tell you you're wrong.
3018
3019The thing you are missing is that mama bears defend their young, but these mama humans defend their ego. The child is not under threat, the ego is under threat, because the mama is using the child as an object of the ego.
3020
3021Hotel Concierge: The Subprime Directive
3022
3023It's essentially blame. An example might be a man comes home late for dinner and his wife is upset he didn't call. He gets resentful and blames her for being a controling shrew. In reality, however, he know he could have called and he only justifies his not calling by appeal to the claim that she is a controlling shrew. That's projection. If he actually said this until he made her feel awful, that would be projective identification - if he succeeded in forcing her to feel guilty for "overreacting."
3024
3025Hotel Concierge: The Subprime Directive
3026
3027Liked it! I'll solve his main mystery:
3028
3029As of late, this blog?s essays have been obsessed with a particular theme: how, in a capitalist society, defining yourself against something perversely encourages that something to exist.
3030
3031Defining yourself against something is resentment which by and large is the disavowal and projection of guilt through devaluing others. This sword cuts two ways: First, it separates the native populace into brand groups. Second, it reduces the need for psychological tension between nation states, reducing hot-war in favor of cold war and 4gw never ending culture war.
3032
3033Baby Dove #RealMoms | The great thing about being a single mom is that there's no one there to tell you you're wrong.
3034
3035Because they are weak advice of any kind implies devaluation and the mothers lack a stable sense of value. Only psychologically mature people can ask for and/or accept advice.
3036
3037Yes, people are generally defensive. The value problem with this commercial and the culture of authenticity is that it validates/justifies a character weakness.
3038
3039It's important to be yourself - but as a mother, their is at least one thing more important: Your family.
3040
3041The thing about roles which we are missing is that roles give you something to value other than your ego/feelings.
3042
3043People tell you what to do because they are trying to help. If it seems like everyone is trying to control you, like these mothers, it's because you are immature and a little bit crazy - or a lot a bit in the case of the cross-dresser.
3044
3045Baby Dove #RealMoms | The great thing about being a single mom is that there's no one there to tell you you're wrong.
3046
3047If I ever watch another Dove commercial I will have to swear off bathing forever.
3048
3049Being a mom qua role not biology is about nurturing your child. While there is more than one way to do this, it has nothing to do with Mom's ego.
3050
3051Every one feels so disrespected because of the lack of roles in society. Not that roles are good - they are just a crutch, like manners, to help avoid offending people.
3052
3053The entitlement generation in a nutshell is the result of validating people's resentment.
3054
3055Parents abuse their kids for youtube money
3056
3057Yep. In my view violence and/or anger is not wrong - it's proper place is to protect people who can't protect themselves.
3058
3059Parents abuse their kids for youtube money
3060
3061The key problem is that it is very difficult to protect children from their parents without making the situation worse in some other way.
3062
3063I think the decision to separate children from their parents, no matter how bad those parents are, is a difficult one. It's easy to say this should be done when I have no responsibility for providing for said children.
3064
3065The best thing you could do is beat the hell out of the guy on camera. Then tell him if he ever makes his children cry again, you'll be back. If you're not willing to do that, then it is probably best to not do anything. Then tell him "Or is it just a prank brah?"
3066
3067Posturing aside, it would certainly be laudable to contact local child protective services with your concern. Just remember that being separated from abusive parents does not necessarily make your life better. Which is why it is such a tough decision.
3068
3069Parents abuse their kids for youtube money
3070
3071This is abuse. To make it real clear, the way life is supposed to work is this: Kids signal distress = parents feel distress = parents care about childs distress = child feels cared about and therefore better = child values parent = parent feels valuable, and therefore less distress.
3072
3073These people are horrible, like most - so I don't know that we should do anything with this information other than use a sense of sympathy for the kids to make you be nicer.
3074
3075'Seriously, The Guy Has A Point' (Fearless Girl vs. Charging Bull)
3076
3077You nailed it in your follow up. Remove the bull and you know everything you need to know about feminism and the entire psychology of resentment.
3078
3079You?re Angry: A Basic Ego Analysis Example
3080
3081I wonder if this fits your experience: Does your anger actually mean you resent people for making you feel guilty?
3082
3083I mean, it's obvious to me you feel guilty about being angry - which is why you're not expressing it. Which means it's obvious to me that at some level you care about the people you're angry at. I wonder if it's obvious to them in these conversations that you are a caring person for whom your relationship is more important than your right to be angry?
3084
3085You?re Angry: A Basic Ego Analysis Example
3086
3087Haha - thanks. I haven't had much inspiration recently. The world has been pretty interesting without having to scratch too deeply!
3088
3089You?re Angry: A Basic Ego Analysis Example
3090
3091To become comfortable with anger you first have to become comfortable with discomfort about anger. This is probably either guilt or shame or both. I think you should explore what you mean by "I'm afraid I'll explode." If you can get to the point of being angry at someone without devaluing them (contept/resentment) you're in the sweet spot. Think of the goal as being angry with an equal not resenting someone powerful or having contempt for someone worthless.
3092
3093The strong and beautiful eyes and their tame wild are an effigy to burn and...
3094
3095I meant when I found Bukowski it felt like I found a writer who had alsways understood me. This was of course more than 16 years ago in my early 20's. I was depressed at the time. Still enjoy him, but relate to poetry differently now.
3096
3097The strong and beautiful eyes and their tame wild are an effigy to burn and...
3098
3099Don't read too much Bukowski. He'll convince you love is worth it, and yet, not possible. My favorite poet, and perhaps author -for all the wrong reasons.
3100
3101His voice was always the voice in my head.
3102
3103Ed Sheeran Has a Toxic Masculinity Problem - Plenty to Dissect Here, very Interested in the Community's Thoughts
3104
3105It would be tough conversationally. You might try two things: (1) Ask her if her attitude toward Ed reflects her deepest values. (2) Ask her if she thinks her attitude toward Ed is permissible for everyone, or just because Ed is a jerk. Steer her toward the problem that her ethical behavior is nothing more than "he started it" because she is implying she can be mean because he was mean.
3106
3107Ed Sheeran Has a Toxic Masculinity Problem - Plenty to Dissect Here, very Interested in the Community's Thoughts
3108
3109I would assert - not claim to know - that it is an example of repressed guilt. By this I mean that the outcome of repression is symptomatic overexpression, in this case - she says exaggeratedly negative things because she needs to validate her negativity - which she would otherwise be left feeling bad about. As in "geez, I'm being awfully hard on this guy."
3110
3111Ed Sheeran Has a Toxic Masculinity Problem - Plenty to Dissect Here, very Interested in the Community's Thoughts
3112
3113What she describes is how men get angry to avoid shame when they are devalued by women. What she misses is how women devalue men in order avoid their own insecurities - such as feeling guilty for being bad to men in general and instead projecting guilt onto men in general.
3114
3115The Moral Failure of the MBA Elite
3116
3117The key is that by resenting them for this, we permit ourselves to be unethical.
3118
3119Why is weakness a virtue?
3120
3121You got it!
3122
3123The Moral Failure of the MBA Elite
3124
3125Favorite idea from the article: We have absolved responsibility to legal authorities and experts.
3126
3127Why is weakness a virtue?
3128
3129It's comparative. The way psychological strength (ego strength) works is that the perception of power struggles is relative to others. This mean when you are strong, setting your ego needs aside does not feel like submission and you are no longer concerned with winning but making decisions in your long term best interest.
3130
3131Ego conflicts with others are largely about trying to control them in order to control an inner state.
3132
3133In my experience while it is true that some powerful/wealthy individuals achieve and maintain their position by malice, the vast majority are the most helpful, generous and secure people I know.
3134
3135People who refuse to believe this are generally either mired in unethical behavior or not particularly successful.
3136
3137Basically, **you cannot be productive and therefore valuable if you are spending all your time protecting your ego.
3138
3139Not guilt Mr. Brooks, Shame.
3140
3141Well I'm definitely relating the two - as in I do claim you have meta feelings - feelings about feelings. That's not conflating them. The relationship between an emotion and a situation could be described as "motivation." You can have conflicting motivations. Part of what I'm saying is that reconciling conflicting motivations makes you more comfortable, more effective, and results in a more meaningful life.
3142
3143The thing about interpersonal resentment is that you wind up blaming someone for something they did not do, while at the same time letting them avoid awareness of something they really did do.
3144
3145Hotel Concierge | Modern Romance | "So, what is romance supposed to look like? According to Hollywood: love is someone who makes it so you never have to talk to anyone else."
3146
3147For #1 you made a value judgement about what they are saying and then told me what they are not doing (applying their conclusions to themselves). Would it be safe to paraphrase you as saying "What bugs me about the intelligentsia is that they don't apply their conclusions to themselves?" If that is accurate, please let me know what conclusions you are talking about.
3148
3149(2) For # 2 are you saying this (#1) bothers you because you care about authenticity. Is that accurate?
3150
3151Hotel Concierge | Modern Romance | "So, what is romance supposed to look like? According to Hollywood: love is someone who makes it so you never have to talk to anyone else."
3152
3153I appreciate how much time you must have spent with that answer but I'm sorry to say I still don't understand you. I don't mean to be criticial, but I'm wondering if you could tell me in plain terms in no more than two sentences (1) what you think academics are doing which bothers you, and (2) how do you account for being bothered by what they are doing.
3154
3155Not guilt Mr. Brooks, Shame.
3156
3157I think the best way to talk about it is in terms of "potential." So I would agree that most people who have ever lived have not reached their potential for enjoying their life. For instance - not only have most men throughout history not realized that women don't "make them feel anxious" but quite the contrary believed that women were using witchcraft to make their heart race, etc.
3158
3159Whether "accepting" things or not makes your life better depends on what you mean by accepting. I don't think I can answer that question in this format.
3160
3161But the headline is: People who are suffering psychologically have the potential to improve - by which I mean enjoy living a better life. By the latter I specifically mean two things: (1) Less shame and guilt, (2) More in line with their values.
3162
3163This is normative, but I am comfortable with this in the sense that I think it would be pedantic to criticize the above as some sort of oppressive value judgement. People who don't want to feel better don't explore psychology, and to that extent I will leave them to their own devices.
3164
3165Everyone begins life with certain (primitive, immature, distorted, mistaken or whatever) emotional patterns - such as blaming other people or denial. From that extent it is true that these emotions like resentment are part of the human experience. However, people have the potential as adults to move beyond this, and lead a life virtually devoid of resentment and certain other forms of negativity. This life is much much better than the alternative.
3166
3167Not guilt Mr. Brooks, Shame.
3168
3169I'd say that feeling like you have failed to live up to your values (shame) is also a mature emotion. Otherwise no objection.
3170
3171Not guilt Mr. Brooks, Shame.
3172
3173Not so sure. When discussing guilt and shame you have to keep two things in mind: (1) Guilt as fear of punishment is different than guilt as in remorse for hurting someone you care about, and (2) Shame in terms of fear of rejection is different than shame as feeling like a failure.
3174
3175The former both indicate a core problem of psychological immaturity. The latter both indicate ordinary adult states to be embraced and tolerated.
3176
3177Hotel Concierge | Modern Romance | "So, what is romance supposed to look like? According to Hollywood: love is someone who makes it so you never have to talk to anyone else."
3178
3179I still don't understand what you mean about dissonance. Do you not realize that many people consciously enjoy doing battle in the realm of ideas - which means promoting their ideas and devaluing those of others?
3180
3181Hotel Concierge | Modern Romance | "So, what is romance supposed to look like? According to Hollywood: love is someone who makes it so you never have to talk to anyone else."
3182
3183Well, first you'd have to convince me that other people are experiencing dissonance. I see no evidence of that. There is a good case to be made that academics have created a sort of echo chamber and this could be called a dissonance avoidance strategy, but this contradicts your claim that they are experiencing cognitive dissonance.
3184
3185Hotel Concierge | Modern Romance | "So, what is romance supposed to look like? According to Hollywood: love is someone who makes it so you never have to talk to anyone else."
3186
3187What is the cognitive dissonance you believe academics are experiencing: Specifically - what is the desired situation, what is the dissonant information, and what is the defensive behavior which wards it off?
3188
3189Hotel Concierge | Modern Romance | "So, what is romance supposed to look like? According to Hollywood: love is someone who makes it so you never have to talk to anyone else."
3190
3191But that's not their identity, it's an explanation which is part of your identity. By this I mean their behavior does not mean to them what it means to you.
3192
3193Their identity is what they would express in their own words.
3194
3195Hotel Concierge | Modern Romance | "So, what is romance supposed to look like? According to Hollywood: love is someone who makes it so you never have to talk to anyone else."
3196
3197In terms of your general point I agree that (1) many people do indeed want to participate in building and advancing their culture, (2) it's true that those first to the discourse try to protect their territory - which is analogous to how people protect property (3) people often resent those who maintain such positions, more so as their claims to centrality of importance become weaker.
3198
3199But what in your mind distinguishes this process from ordinary resentment?
3200
3201Hotel Concierge | Modern Romance | "So, what is romance supposed to look like? According to Hollywood: love is someone who makes it so you never have to talk to anyone else."
3202
3203I understand your general objection, but this frustrating process is important because you are tackling philosophy. I'll try not to be pedantic.
3204
3205Hotel Concierge | Modern Romance | "So, what is romance supposed to look like? According to Hollywood: love is someone who makes it so you never have to talk to anyone else."
3206
3207Could you elaborate? What do you consider enlightenment values, and what do you mean by self-imposed immaturity?
3208
3209I do think people's emotional worlds can seem very tangled, and that untangling them is deeply spiritual - a liberation like being born again. But the crux is that I think this has almost nothing to do with geopolitics or academia.
3210
3211Hotel Concierge | Modern Romance | "So, what is romance supposed to look like? According to Hollywood: love is someone who makes it so you never have to talk to anyone else."
3212
3213I guess this is part of the problem we're having. You're critiquing academia and using a variety of technical terms in an esoteric way unique to you - and I'm getting caught up in that. So the more you can put it in your own words it would really help me.
3214
3215Hotel Concierge | Modern Romance | "So, what is romance supposed to look like? According to Hollywood: love is someone who makes it so you never have to talk to anyone else."
3216
3217Could you start by telling me what you mean by humanism? Does this mean what the German philosophers meant when referring to early reformation era catholics (such as Petrarch) who developed a renewed interest in the classics - or something else?
3218
3219I'll respond to more later, but want to make sure I'm not going down a false trail.
3220
3221Hotel Concierge | Modern Romance | "So, what is romance supposed to look like? According to Hollywood: love is someone who makes it so you never have to talk to anyone else."
3222
3223Being reactive to other peoples standards is a subtle form of devaluing or resentment. I don't mean this to criticize you in any way - I just think you could focus even more on your own standards and values without any recourse to disparaging "capitalism."
3224
3225I can't go so far as to say all social emotion is about craving validation. It seems this way since so many people have weak egos and psychological problems. People can develop to not need much validation from others. Their social motivations then become to help others and provide value to people they care about. The validation in this case is providing to themselves that they are kind and helpful, and this is not easily devalued or swayed by the responses of others.
3226
3227An example of this behavior: A weak person gives a compliment which isn't received well and reacts with upset - since it was after all an attempt at getting validation. A moderately mature person might have this same reaction but quietly resent the other person and devalue them, feeling superior as a defense against this reaction. But a mature person wouldn't be offended by this behavior - since they would have been sincere in their desire to help the other person and thus clearly see that the defensive persons response was based on their own shame and feelings of inferiority - which would probably inspire sympathy.
3228
3229Rachel Dolezal says she is more stigmatized than transgender people
3230
3231Thank you!
3232
3233Hotel Concierge | Modern Romance | "So, what is romance supposed to look like? According to Hollywood: love is someone who makes it so you never have to talk to anyone else."
3234
3235I'd have to disagree. You cannot choose whose validations matter to you. You either care about the other person or you don't. Now, you can work around/suppress yoru reaction - but that's doing cartwheels to avoid reality. Growing up means being secure enough to care for and about other people, rather than caring primarily about yourself as seen through their reactions.
3236
3237I do agree most people are "addicted" to validation. I see it as being stuck along ones journey rather than a moral failing. Ultimately not needing validation requires being able to maintain a sense of your own value despite other peoples defensiveness. Other people tend to make you feel devalued, which triggers people.
3238
3239My only question on blaming the state or whatever is whether or not you use the belief (the state is bad) to justify any actions on your part or inactions on your part that you wouldn't be able to justify if the state were ok?
3240
3241For instance, a French revolutionary justifying beheading nobles because nobles are evil is probably using resentment to project guilt and justify execution. Someone who is simply, say voting for their candidate because they see it in the long term best interest of their family doesn't have to demonize the opposition.
3242
3243Hotel Concierge | Modern Romance | "So, what is romance supposed to look like? According to Hollywood: love is someone who makes it so you never have to talk to anyone else."
3244
3245Sure thing - let me know what you think.
3246
3247Hotel Concierge | Modern Romance | "So, what is romance supposed to look like? According to Hollywood: love is someone who makes it so you never have to talk to anyone else."
3248
3249Maybe the easiest way to say it is that at one level of psychological maturity it seems like guilt and shame are inflicted upon us by others. At a higher level, these emotions are revealed as our internal motivations to follow our values. So in immaturity, it can feel like submission to act in our own best interest. But mature people come to enjoy taking care of others more than anything else in the world. The difference is how needy you are. If you're not needy, you can love giving more than anything - because it makes your life meaningful. If you're too needy - generally the most common solution is withdrawl and negativity - i.e. resent the world for not being good enough.
3250
3251Hotel Concierge | Modern Romance | "So, what is romance supposed to look like? According to Hollywood: love is someone who makes it so you never have to talk to anyone else."
3252
3253I don't often recommend pop psychologists but recently stumbled on Steven Stosney. He has some youtube stuff, a blog, and a few books. He is the best pop psychiatrist who can apply some of this stuff without unnecessary depth. He explains intersubjectivity between men and women so simply, it's quite good.
3254
3255Hotel Concierge | Modern Romance | "So, what is romance supposed to look like? According to Hollywood: love is someone who makes it so you never have to talk to anyone else."
3256
3257When you get it - it's not sacrificial. Living in line with your values is the most meaningful way to live.
3258
3259No matter how bad the world may be one should always be careful what you use that belief for - does it justify a posture toward life? No matter how bad it is, I think living a good life can be as simple as making life a little bit better and easier, at least for those around you.
3260
3261Life just gets better when you prove to yourself that you care and are trying to help.
3262
3263Rachel Dolezal says she is more stigmatized than transgender people
3264
3265Totally called this! http://theblondbeast.com/psychology/rachel-dolezal-is-blacker-than-bruce-jenner-is-female/
3266
3267How many of you depend on a substance?
3268
3269I'm a 35 y/o man. Got into fasting for convenience and exploring my feelings / spirituality. It's amazing how much even food medicates.
3270
3271You're right - people do go crazy when you tell them about fasting. This is mostly because people are totally out of control with their own eating and have to project some problem onto you. Tell someone sometimes I don't eat for days and I'm totally fine with it - plus I'm in better shape than you athletically. Mind blown!
3272
3273Beyond that I'm also motivated by not buying new larger pants - so find it necessary to diet once in a while.
3274
3275Hotel Concierge | Modern Romance | "So, what is romance supposed to look like? According to Hollywood: love is someone who makes it so you never have to talk to anyone else."
3276
3277Love is hard in the present because your partner is always there - ruining it for you.
3278
3279Just kidding. In seriousness though - lost in translation is awesome - but both movies are based on a fantasy of love, which is fine, because every generation has needed something like this. Nothing to see here except why we now criticize it.
3280
3281Mature (object) love is mostly about your values, not your feelings and as such means sacrifice - giving things up which are less important for what is most important. What hollywood really can't see, which is a fantasy of the viewers and the actors, is that fame/dreams are more important than relationships. This is of course a defense against the fact that relationships are harder.
3282
3283How many of you depend on a substance?
3284
3285Less and less year by year. But yes - in my 20's especially. Fasting was what finally showed me how much I regulate my mood with stuff.
3286
3287Are Baby Boomers A ?Generation Of Sociopaths??
3288
3289I think so - what do you mean?
3290
3291The classics?
3292
3293Nope - it's not a pre-req. He gives a pretty good summary. As a matter of fact, Girard will help you appreciate literature more. Though he might ruin pulp trashy fiction for you forever. Beware!
3294
3295The classics?
3296
3297I got this one and didn't find it too difficult: https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://t3.gstatic.com/images%3Fq%3Dtbn:ANd9GcSdwoeueU2WvsgMHlpOK_49zRW-IL0l1tMM85v3HVkxq0-SL4hJ&imgrefurl=http://books.google.com/books/about/Deceit_Desire_and_the_Novel.html%3Fid%3D6yKxgXln1-kC%26source%3Dkp_cover&h=602&w=373&tbnid=204BJgY-ELnN7M:&tbnh=160&tbnw=99&usg=__R9yW73DaqbOqs_InklSJPNjdDP8=&vet=10ahUKEwiwq8uX4IHTAhUH0IMKHXvoCt0Q_B0IZzAK..i&docid=FErbYoge78ap8M&itg=1&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiwq8uX4IHTAhUH0IMKHXvoCt0Q_B0IZzAK#h=602&imgrc=204BJgY-ELnN7M:&tbnh=160&tbnw=99&vet=10ahUKEwiwq8uX4IHTAhUH0IMKHXvoCt0Q_B0IZzAK..i&w=373
3298
3299I also watched a few youtube videos while I was working through it. Hope that helps.
3300
3301The classics?
3302
3303I recommend reading Don Quixote, Proust, Red and the Black and The Underground Man. Then read Rene Girard's Deceit Desire and the Novel, who traces the secret of desire and narcissism as revealed through classic literature.
3304
3305Is mindfulness bad for you?
3306
3307Great comment! Thanks!
3308
3309Why mind invents defenses against change?
3310
3311I recommend you read what Bernard Apfelbaum has to say about Masters and Johnsons sex therapy approach, how people misunderstand it and why.
3312
3313Why mind invents defenses against change?
3314
3315What if I said it's the pain which prevents people from maturing? To me the hallmarks of maturity are (1) being able to act in your own long term best interest, (2) being able to maintain positive relationships, and (3) being reliably constructive.
3316
3317Why mind invents defenses against change?
3318
3319Also, based on this and your comment of having a sheltered, blessed life you may consider that possibly some of your theory is based on having a relatively positive superego - if it feels like your mind is a safe place, relating to your ego like you have a good friend listening to you all the time.
3320
3321Not sure if it fits but there is a great book called Faces In the Clouds which explores how Freud and a few other had their theories shaped by the key issues of their life. Makes sense to me. Also by disclosure I have clearly seen this gravity or pull in my intellectual journey. No change in thinking has happened without a change in feeling or improvement in my attitude toward others.
3322
3323Why mind invents defenses against change?
3324
3325So the ego always has an explanation for why the captain is doing what he is doing. This explanation is either ego-syntonic (as in the person is congruent with their emotional world) or it is a defensiive/incongruous explanation. The conscious awareness of this explanation is part of the ego.
3326
3327Your understanding of the ego sounds more cognitive, which I infer from you describing it as directing, detecting and problem solving.
3328
3329What is the organ grinder in your example? Are you splitting off the emotional/motivational part of the ego? What mental structure in the psychoanalytical heuristic would you ascribe that to?
3330
3331To help clarify - Apfelbaum refers to interpreting from the side of the ego understanding that people are in a courtroom with their superego. He defines this as synonymous with any coherent definition of "neutrality" and does not accept interpreting on behalf of "reality."
3332
3333We focus on the Ego because the Ego is the part of the organism which is suffering. When it doesn't look this way, the observer has been fooled by defense mechanisms to side with the superego. Unfortunately, the superego is what they are generally suffering from, and they think that it's you - which, once you've been fooled, it now is.
3334
3335Why mind invents defenses against change?
3336
3337Thanks for sharing - the conversation has been a real pleasure on my part.
3338
3339Did I use ego correctly in my metaphor?
3340
3341I think you could even go a little deeper. It has something to do with attention - of which there are no less than 6 theories to explain, and also motivation. Consciousness is some combination of the two which is why caring is so fundamental to Heidegger et. al.
3342
3343So the ego has to be things within ones direct attention (like the headlamp) which also includes fantasies about your social self, but also things within ones indirect attention or preconscious. If you shoot firearms, you could think of this like the gun site vs the target. You look at the gunsite but see the target in the back ground. This latter category includes things you're not looking at (with conscious or unconscious motivation to distort) but know are in the darkness - and also what you make both of these things mean - which could be how you understand or explain the purpose of your behavior - what you are and are not looking at.
3344
3345So often times the ego is not directing attention to the external world, but rather to ego objects or internalized representations of people and things. This also includes a representation of other peoples motivations (remember the two things: attention and motivation or meaning). The superego is the representation or the memory of other peoples motivations and is at the core of problems between understanding self/other and healing or strengthening the ego - which means looking at everything and coming to terms with what it means to you.
3346
3347So the ego is not just psychological phenomena or fantasies about who you are but also includes awareness of bodily sensations, memories, etc. So the "body ego" or physical sensations you understand is part of the ego, while the ID is part of your nervous system you don't get. An example would be someone who thinks they have chronic pain when the actually are depressed and are experiencing the adrenal fatigue of constant resentment and can't focus on these bodily sensations because they represent anger and this understanding threatens the ego. In this case the "belief" that I have (bogus illness) is an ego defense - not for everyone, but in the case of hypocondriasis.
3348
3349To heal negative superego effects is to resolve for yourself that your memory of other peoples motivations is a way to explain your experience and once addressed is experienced as part of you, after the pain and loneliness of separation are addressed, if they are addressed, which is probably never fully accomplished.
3350
3351The Ego/Id/Superego concept is mostly a heuriistic - not necessarily describing three eternally distinct and really existing mental structures. It's a metaphor to understand conscious experience of ones body and sensations.
3352
3353Is mindfulness bad for you?
3354
3355My answer would be: If your mindfulness leads to you making other peoples lives better (i.e. being less reactive and acting with more kindness) then mindfulness is good for you.
3356
3357If it simply leads to you being out of touch or not caring under the guise of "detachment" you are on the wrong track.
3358
3359Why mind invents defenses against change?
3360
3361I hear you and I'm with you more now. Let me try my perspective a different way. The narrative of responsibility is usually used to justify blame, it's also the way people's own self-hatred operates.
3362
3363So what I'm trying to get at is those things which are "ego-syntonic" which means those behaviors that you would affirm as in "yep, this is me." The problem with telling people they are making unconscious choices is that they hear it as you're telling me that really underneath it all I'm not who I think I am, who I want to be, and that I'm a bad guy. Whis is precisely what they are already telling themselves via the superego and the problem behavior, like being irresponsible, is a defense against the superego effects. It is doubly complicated when therapists actually believe these things, as many do - becoming superego figures as opposed to underneath it all you can't be who you really want to be at the moment, haven't always been in the past, feel awful about it, and totally disconnect from yourself and others. Maybe it's just a perspective, it sometimes sounds like seeing the glass as half full or half empty, but I think it is more phenomenological. In the moment - you either see the person in the other chair as fundamentally ok or not. The most common breakdown in this process has been schizoid intellectualization and devaluation of patients.
3364
3365Why mind invents defenses against change?
3366
3367We may be missing each other then. To get back to the point of departure I think to consider something a choice one has to be conscious of the alternatives. If one really believes in the unconscious then one need to really believe in can't. e.g. someone can't tell the truth because they feel too guilty - as opposed to finding something wrong with them in the present for not admitting their guilt. This is a very fine line and I am not advocating for validating peoples resentment or projections.
3368
3369Let's say TLP is right, and the generational pathology is narcissism -- isn't that terrifying?
3370
3371Well the problem is that once one accepts there are narcissists and I'm justified to treat them poorly and its their fault one will start acting poorly to people based on this theory. And I think one might feel bad about it because most people are decent. In order to not feel bad about it, they use psychology as a way to intellectualize this away.
3372
3373Why mind invents defenses against change?
3374
3375I have a background in coaching and management where I have found this effective, as well as my own therapeutic journey.
3376
3377I've probably been too hard on NVC, thanks again for the conversation.
3378
3379Why mind invents defenses against change?
3380
3381On this we agree!
3382
3383Why mind invents defenses against change?
3384
3385Go with that. You're onto it. I promise you there is gold beneath this.
3386
3387Why mind invents defenses against change?
3388
3389I can't respond to all the points you brought up, so if I miss something which was important to you just ask again. The two I focused in on:
3390
3391Your prison example. This fails to distinguish protecting yourself from physical harm vs. defending your ego against shame and guilt. When the two seem to be of similar importance it is a big problem for the person in this situation - which is usually how people wind up in prison i.e. people kill other people because they make them feel bad.
3392Rescue is an exaggeration and isn't a legitimate reason to reject the point. When is being kind to somebody weakness akin to rescuing? You don't have to marry and live with every angry stranger in the bar, putting your needs forever aside. Again, for strangers if you really don't care about someone, it's not a big deal. I'd still maintain you'd feel stronger and better about your life if you can be kind to difficult people. Not easy.
3393But in close relationships its important to see the vulnerability underneath peoples difficult behavior or else your life will devolve into "she started it!" You have to learn how to be kind to others without feeling like its an act of submission. To do this requires you to be strong enough not to feel devalued by other peoples defensive or immature behavior - as in you can't live like because she didn't ask the right way, I won't give her what she wants.
3394
3395Why mind invents defenses against change?
3396
3397Much better to approach someone with some empathy and lead them to say "I feel responsible but at the same time like I wasnt in control, I want to stop it happening again but it hurts to admit I might be to blame". Let the cognitive dissonance sit there for all to see, unabashed, and then be accepted by the therapist and also by the client.
3398
3399Yes, it's great if you can lead someone to say that. But the problem is that if you try to get there in a way which increases shame and guilt, by telling them how you think they are responsible, is going to increase not decrease their defenses. This is the cause of the negative therapeutic reaction which often makes people worse.
3400
3401Why mind invents defenses against change?
3402
3403This may be for you to answer. But if it is unconscious guilt you experience yourself as valuable because you loved someone. By interrupting your caring feelings for others, you lose touch with the best part of yourself. That's one way to look at the loss.
3404
3405Why mind invents defenses against change?
3406
3407No worries - I often don't like my first knee jerk response.
3408
3409Why mind invents defenses against change?
3410
3411No no no - you don't reveal it because it doesn't exist. The believ that this exists is unconscious guilt. I am most definitely not agreeing with you. The belief that people are really making bad unconscious choices is a defense against the guilt one would feel for blaming someone, which happens when someone has been baited into siding with someones superego.
3412
3413I agree people have the potential for making the unconscious concious - in the same way you have the potential for bench pressing 300 pounds. But it would be bizarre for me to characterize your inability to bench press 300 pounds as the result of unconscious choices for which you are responsible. The accurate way to describe this is you cannot bench 300 pounds.
3414
3415I don't know where you're going with "ego in a skin suit" but I do not mean ego in the budhist sense. This is important. Ego includes most parts of conscious experience - not just what you might call narcissistic ego needs.
3416
3417Why mind invents defenses against change?
3418
3419Well, yes, that's true - but it depends. Validating someones resentment is probably the worst thing you can do to someone since it destroys their ethical core values. These things are all moralizing though and are likely to trigger defenses.
3420
3421I think its better to talk about caring, not responsibility. This helps people separate guilt (object love and the loss of love) from fear of punishment.
3422
3423Why mind invents defenses against change?
3424
3425What would you like me to respond to specifically?
3426
3427Why mind invents defenses against change?
3428
3429You might need a little help from a sensitive listener but basically it would involve (1) realizing you've been too hard on other people according to your standards of how you want to treat people and experiencing those feelings. Hopefully you can show them to someone - like a significant other - but probably not to the parents the first time. It's about proving to yourself that you care, by remembering how much the loss hurt.
3430
3431Let's say TLP is right, and the generational pathology is narcissism -- isn't that terrifying?
3432
3433What if we just dislike narcissists because they are dishonest?
3434
3435Well, because its not true. If they are "dishonest" how does that make you feel?
3436
3437For one, narcissists aren't "insane" and having such a derogatory attitude will definitely make other people act narcissistically towards you. For two, if there is anything like ethics in existance just because someone else is a dick doesn't mean we get to be a dick to them. This whole conversation is about justifying ones own negativity by blaming others - which I say is about avoiding guilt.
3438
3439It's fine to be angry and aggressive in life. But the right place for these emotions is in protecting people we love from true harm (physical or trauma). This is not to be confused with protecting your ego.
3440
3441Why mind invents defenses against change?
3442
3443We have a big disagreement here - happy to talk about it though. Feminism, like resenting women or MRA stuff - is an excuse for treating the opposite sex poorly - an activity which one would ordinarily feel bad about, and then repress this guilt by blaming it on others.
3444
3445Why would you tell a woman who you think is testing you to fuck off? Why not just ask her "Are you trying to test me?" and perhaps "Are you willing to stop?" Being triggered by you own shame is not a justification to insult someone unless the depth of ones ethics are limited to "she started it!"
3446
3447The best pick up artist I ever met simply asked rude women "Do you not want to talk to me?" In a sincere voice. Way more powerful.
3448
3449The "because her man is weak" line of reasoning is shame. Because the man feels this way, he feels like he has to be a jerk - rather be a jerk than a wuss after all.
3450
3451The woman is not trying to make a weak man feel more inadequate this is only what it looks like to WEAK MEN. Strong men realize she is trying to make herself feel less anxious.
3452
3453Men who have little shame don't feel like they are being tested and they think men who are obsessed with being tested are weird. This is because they assume they don't need to pass any tests and can see this behavior as being motivated by female insecurity.
3454
3455Why mind invents defenses against change?
3456
3457The first need on the list is acceptance. In the act of saying "I need acceptance" not only are you making yourself the subject of the conversation but you are also implying that your partner may not be accepting you. By doing so you are explicitly making yourself the center of attention and not tuning in to whatever it is which is preventing them from attuning to you.
3458
3459All of this is fine, I have no problem with doing this. But the key to whether or not it is effective is whether you care about why your partner is doing what they are doing in the moment or not. That's the important part, not the words - whether you actually can have these conversations with kindness. Otherwise the patter is a form of avoidance and manipulation.
3460
3461In Apfelbaum's lingo this kind of partner reliance is an important skill because the deeper possibility of self reliance (not needing acceptance from others because you deeply accept yourself, in this case) is extremely unreliable and an impossibly high goal for most people. The reason it is impossibly high is that we are unconsciously triggered by other people's ego states and defenses.
3462
3463I don't think it's accurate to call any unconscious process a choice so I don't accept your second rejoinder. That's the whole point of delving into the unconscious - to take something on autopilot, reveal it to the light of day, and work through it until it is conscious. This is the most important thing to understand about psychoanalysis: You DO NOT reveal that people are secretly making dishonest private choices. This assumption is why people resist opening up in the first place. They already think they are doing this, which is why they have repressed guilt!!! Only then do you have the ability to do something we might call a choice, though even that is slippery, but part of a longer conversation. This is the problem behind the negative therapeutic reaction holding someone "responsible" for a reaction they can't control is damaging. This is why, for instance, yelling at your dog when he barks at the mailman reinforces the behavior instead of extinguishing it. Figuring out who is responsible is usually a precursor to figuring out who to blame.
3464
3465Furthermore, realizing how other people are triggering you - such as an anxious girlfriend making you feel ashamed - is required in order for you not to blame her, but to change your reaction to wanting to help her feel less anxious - an action which would alleviate ones shame. The unconscious process which isn't understood is that you feel ashamed because she is anxious. The bizarre logic of describing the situation as "you feel ashamed because you unconsciously choose to" is not helpful, and will probably encourage the guy to feel worse - like there is something unconsciously wrong with him - as opposed to helping him understand the relationship better and connect the dots to how his negative reaction reflects a positive quality about him.
3466
3467Now you may be using the term "responsible" in a different way. I don't like the word because it implies moralization. It also fits into an ideology in which people do not take responsibility for how they effect other people - hiding their lack of kindness and criticism inside the logic that other people are responsible for their reactions.
3468
3469The ethic of responsibility is just not helpful. What is helpful is for people to understand how they are actually effecting each other. The way we effect each other is that we are the stimulus, the cause, for eachothers emotional states. It is at great length and with much work that some people can rise above this. We should not take the highest level of possible functioning and misapply it to the common situation.
3470
3471Why mind invents defenses against change?
3472
3473On the first point: I do not believe in needs, as in "I need the dishes put away after dinner" or "I need you to listen to me." This ignores reality, in that you are trying to control the environment to control an inner state - such as trying not to feel anxious, disempowered or devalued.
3474
3475On the second point: They are not put into us on purpose. An anxious woman who makes a man feel inadequate is not trying to make him feel inadequate, she is trying to not feel anxious. Whether the man feels ashamed or is moved to comfort her depends on whether his motivation to avoid shame is greater than his motivation to help support.
3476
3477So in the latter example the irony is that what allows the man not to blame the woman (make her responsible for his feelings) results in him being willing and interested in helping to reassure her (take responsibility for her feelings).
3478
3479So I'm very far from Marshall on #1, and relatively close with some definitional problems on #2. The word "responsible" can have a basic causal connotation or a blame connotation. Other people are a stimulus which causes our response, but they acquire the properties of being a stimulus with a great deal of our help.
3480
3481And no, the man in the example does not "choose" kindness over shame. Emotional reactivity is first and foremost unconscious.
3482
3483NVC focuses on patter, which does not matter. You have to go to intention. NVC comes naturally from an emotional state of not wanting to hurt someone. He has it backwards - gotta get to the state first and nothing else matters. It's optimistic to hope you can focus on the language, since this is easier to teach to groups and sell in books. It's a noble hope.
3484
3485Why mind invents defenses against change?
3486
3487Would you describe this self-focused anger as self-hatred or self-loathing of some kind?
3488
3489Read this and tell me what you think. It's the best article on the subject I've encountered in a long time.
3490
3491http://www.yorku.ca/dcarveth/guilt.html
3492
3493There is a difference between telling someone you feel guilty and showing someone you feel guilty (i.e. a display of emotional remorse and an attempt to make restitution of some kind). If I knew my display of guilt would be rejected, that would probably produce shame - and require letting go my expectations of support from the relationship. This kind of self-blame can be a substitute for other-blame in that way.
3494
3495Why mind invents defenses against change?
3496
3497Would it help you feel less angry or guilty if there response assured you it was not malice on their part, but incompetence? i.e. it's not that they don't want to be better, but they can't?
3498
3499Why mind invents defenses against change?
3500
3501It's the hardest thing in the world man - to go from wanting people to care, to caring about them instead. But worth it.
3502
3503Why mind invents defenses against change?
3504
3505Does the fact that they are devaluing and ignoring you make you feel less guilty about being angry? It may be that shame is taking over at that point. They are preserving their egos at your expense.
3506
3507Why mind invents defenses against change?
3508
3509You gotta try and go all the way down, if possible. Usually what prevents this is getting wrapped up in ego defenses about the "truth" or superiority.
3510
3511For instance, being thrifty is only about a core value if it relates to protecting your family - or not being a burden on other people. If you're being thrifty to save up for a bender it's not going to be as meaningful.
3512
3513It's not easy - but in terms of keeping your values intact I think we tend to get down on ourselves if we wind up treating people poorly (put them down to make ourselves feel better) or wind up being destructive (withdraw, hide, attack, etc.).
3514
3515Why mind invents defenses against change?
3516
3517That is certainly one step closer to reality and is an excellent therapeutic goal along the lines of Apfelbaum. Further down the rabbit hole is getting to the position where you don't feel hurt by their defensese in the first place because you see it is motivated by their suffering/weakness/immaturity and are moved to respond with kindness to take care of them - not to protect your insecure ego.
3518
3519However, this latter is a tall order for most people who are struggling, outside the context of loooooong term depth therapy and tons of motivation. Apfelbaum's position that by getting to the first position you create the opportunity for the relationship itself to become therapeutic.
3520
3521i.e. If you feel guilty about being angry with your girlfriend and can talk about it in a way that lets her know that you are mad at her (claim she is causing your anger) but that you feel guilty about it (wish you were not angry) because you care about her, then you have the chance of not making her so defensive or at least feeling connected to the full picture of your experience. Her response to this will either make you (A) Less angry and thus less guilty if she is positive, or (B) More sure that you were right to be angry, and therefore less guilty/conflicted. It doesn't solve the issue, per say, it solves your inhibition/conflict with your experience of the conflict and lets the truth emerge.
3522
3523Why mind invents defenses against change?
3524
3525Here's something to consider: If your "living up to ideals" seems unattainable they may not be your ideals.
3526
3527I don't often recommend people who have been on Oprah but Steven Stosney has an excellent and very simple way of understanding these issues if you check him out on youtube. It's an easier way of thinking about it besides slogging through the concepts of "ego ideal" and "object love." I've found his work very simple on this key point.
3528
3529Basically I'd agree with him that core values amount to being kind and constructive. Essentially caring about the people around you and improving their lives. The ability to do this depends on (1) ones ego strength/self esteem/etc., and (2) relatedly, the ability to not feel devalued by other peoples defense mechanisms.
3530
3531Generally, being "guilted" or "shamed" by others is the result of feeling devalued by their defensiveness - blame, resentment, projection, etc. - and the ensuing repression of our responses to this (pain, anger) which causes guilt and shame. The problem is that we then blame them for the GUILT, not for the PAIN, and the ANGER, not the SHAME.*
3532
3533This is how repression becomes a barrier to ones ability to love - and as a result of that a serious inability to feel like ones life is meaningful or that you are fundamentally on the right path in life.
3534
3535Hope that helps.
3536
3537Why mind invents defenses against change?
3538
3539Yep, you got it. I think people mistakenly hear "defense against change" and think that the solution is to "just do it" or "fake it till you make it" which is a huge problem for people who are suffering from going through the motions in life - outside of the context of a therapeutic relationship which will explore the underlying emotional issues this leads to ego-fueled surface behavior.
3540
3541Why mind invents defenses against change?
3542
3543Yeah, see, you gotta get to the bottom of ego attachments to determine if they are values or related to defense mechanisms.
3544
3545Relentlessly accumulating capital is only important if something else more fundamental is important - now this answer could be "crushing your enemies" which we'd have to dig into, or it could be something like "protecting your family" which is getting pretty close to something fundamental.
3546
3547People are not like computers, I think we've tussled this one out before. The best book on this subject is Understanding Computers and Cognition by Fernando Flores. Humans care which computers do not.
3548
3549Guilt and shame are not "put into us" by others. It's true that criticism and blame can trigger these feelings - and that's the real nexus - this process.
3550
3551Why mind invents defenses against change?
3552
3553What is valuable to you - or said another way, what is your theory of value?
3554
3555Why mind invents defenses against change?
3556
3557The problem I have with "defense against change" is that it confuses a change in behavior, which most people are erroneously thinking about, from a change in ego state.
3558
3559It's the change in ego state (motivation) that enables a change in behavior - or allows for no change in behavior but a change in meaning.
3560
3561People defend against a change to their ego state because guilt and shme change your life forever when consciously experienced and connected to your actions.
3562
3563Let's say TLP is right, and the generational pathology is narcissism -- isn't that terrifying?
3564
3565Thanks - I don't know much about Lacan so I can't answer this question very well. From how you describe it above it seems to make sense to me.
3566
3567Why mind invents defenses against change?
3568
3569You don't think so?
3570
3571Why mind invents defenses against change?
3572
3573I'd suggest one way you can measure your own good life is by how much time you spent following your core values.
3574
3575Sometimes other people do try to devalue you with blame and criticism (guilt and shame) but mostly the personal experience of the painful sensation of guilt and shame is our own response to not following our deepest values.
3576
3577You don't have to be unscrupulous to be successful. All you need to do is be consistently constructive and also act in your own long term self interest.
3578
3579I don't mean this as a criticism of you in any way, I just want to challenge what seems like an extension of your outlook as I infer it: If one really believes the world is not worth ones constructive help, I am sure the problem is not with the world.
3580
3581Let's say TLP is right, and the generational pathology is narcissism -- isn't that terrifying?
3582
3583The term "alone" I believe referred to the experience of the narcissist. I believe it is from Dostoevsky and his portrait of the underground man "I am Alone and THEY are EVERYONE!"
3584
3585In my read this lonely paranoia represents an anxiety disorder about the selfishness of others. It happens to people who are experiencing the pain of being disconnected.
3586
3587I think the stronger one gets psychologically the more one experiences compassion for people in this situation rather than fear or judgement. The reason narcissists make you feel bad is because they make you feel like a narcissist. The reason one can't see this is resentment - blaming our reaction on them and hiding the fact that in the moment I am too weak.
3588
3589The world looks like a bunch of jerks because we keep responding to jerks like jerks. If I am afraid of being kind to apparent narcissists, or feel entitled to treat them unkindly because they deserve it - the problem with the world is me.
3590
3591Why mind invents defenses against change?
3592
3593"Defense against change" is TLP lingo, intended I believe to create a sense of responsibility in readers. Or perhaps to trigger shame, which hopefully makes the reader identify that feeling.
3594
3595However, if we're being less rhetorical people do not in reality defend against change. They defend against "shocks to the ego" which are generally patterns of guilt and shame with associated physical and mental discomforts.
3596
3597The most pernicious and poorly understood defense is resentment. The reason it is poorly understood is that most people who are interested in psychology are interested in it because of their defensive resentment - i.e. they know they are not being kind to other people and are studying psychology in order to avoid guilt and shame.
3598
3599It shows up in ideas of moralizing surround change and growth rather than kindness - as if people should just change and stop being so resistant and lazy or entitled.
3600
3601Even the word "growth" is kind of bad - like something you should do or are bad for not growing. How about what keeps people from enjoying their lives and reaching their highest potential?
3602
3603Are Baby Boomers A ?Generation Of Sociopaths??
3604
3605I think underneath it all the boomers are unconsciously guilty. Nobody really believes they deserve a pension becasue...they don't. You're not going to feel like you are living a good life unless you spend it being kind to those you care about and creating value of some kind. When society started going into debt, knowingly impoverishing future generations, they condemned themselves to future punishment which they then repressed. The greatest generation were naive in order to cope with the violence all around them. This is why they fell victim to noble lies from unscrupulous politicians. I trust they would feel remorse if they realized this - and they would try to help.
3606
3607Are Baby Boomers A ?Generation Of Sociopaths??
3608
3609I think underneath it all the boomers are unconsciously guilty. Nobody really believes they deserve a pension becasue...they don't. You're not going to feel like you are living a good life unless you spend it being kind to those you care about and creating value of some kind. When society started going into debt, knowingly impoverishing future generations, they condemned themselves to future punishment which they then repressed.
3610
3611The greatest generation were naive in order to cope with the violence all around them. This is why they fell victim to noble lies from unscrupulous politicians.
3612
3613I trust they would feel remorse if they realized this - and they would try to help.
3614
3615Bad Things That Could Happen?
3616
3617Oh, it's the same companyy!
3618
3619Bad Things That Could Happen?
3620
3621Reminds me of Don't Hug Me I'm Scared:
3622
3623https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9C_HReR_McQ
3624
3625Hotel Concierge: Who Framed Lena Dunham?
3626
3627You understand me precisely. The projective identification you talk about is, underneath it all, a desperate and misguided attempt at connection.
3628
3629Tomato Tomahto, Bollas Ballas?
3630
3631Edward Teach was a pseudonym, that is the name of Blackbeard the Pirate.
3632
3633Talking to yourself
3634
3635A good short newer easy book on the subject is Ego and the Pursuit of Attention.
3636
3637But basically - everyone his a psychological need for attention. Without it, it's very difficult to maintain your sanity and almost impossible to live a good life. Without it, you are trapped in your own head and lose/don't develop a sense of who you are.
3638
3639Look at it this way. Part of your "ego" is formed by being a stimulus which causes a response in your environment. Much of communication is trying to cause a response in your environment which makes you feel better (like providing value to others and feeling good, or being kind and seeing it touch people).
3640
3641People who are struggling often try to control for a specific type of feedback - as in trying to push people to see them as confident, cool, or powerful. This "narcissistic" control of attention is a defensive posture, because people don't actually feel how they are acting and are trying to shore up their insecurities.
3642
3643This is contrasted with ordinary attention (wanting people to see how you actually are so as to feel more connected and understand eachother better) and attention giving (showing people you care and are paying attention for them).
3644
3645Learning HOW to want(?)
3646
3647You betcha - if you'd like some very accessible info on this perspective check out Steven Stosny. I don't agree with him on everything, but on this issue he is spot on and completely free of psychoanalytical jargon.
3648
3649Hotel Concierge: Who Framed Lena Dunham?
3650
3651Yeah, it gets a little weird with third party perspectives. Because you and me criticising a third party is still you and me connecting. Can definitely be a safe way of exploring someone elses psyche, too - with the guard up a little.
3652
3653Hotel Concierge: Who Framed Lena Dunham?
3654
3655Yes, i think so. Two of the most difficult psychodynamic concepts to wrap ones head around are (1) depressive anxiety, and (2) the manic defense.
3656
3657Looked at in certain contexts, for example, the manic defense can be deployed to dismiss a great much of what looks like ordinary enjoyment.
3658
3659But certainly arriving at this position (resoliving good/bad part objects) is right on - and I think Kohut further developed the effect this has on the sense of self which accompanies these object relationships.
3660
3661Klein, however used Freud's earlier conception from Mourning and Melancolia, which he later significantly revised in The Ego and the Id (as I discuss here: http://theblondbeast.com/uncategorized/30-is-the-old-20-a-criticism-of-dr-meg-jays-defining-decade/)
3662
3663Hotel Concierge: Who Framed Lena Dunham?
3664
3665Close - I think living well is the best offense. Total war is still the best revenge - crushing your enemies, seeing them driven before you and hearing the lamentation of the women. ;)
3666
3667HOWEVER in everyday life I believe most of what initially seems like we need to revenge is actually misunderstood. When you're a strong mature person you can see that most of other people's ordinary actions (within the rule of law) is motivated by insecurities - and it no longer feels like you need revenge because your ego doesn't get triggered in the first place.
3668
3669The place for "revenge" or using negativity in life I think is best relegated to protecting people and things you care about. That is pretty broad.
3670
3671Hotel Concierge: Who Framed Lena Dunham?
3672
3673Thanks for the response. I think an excellent question to consider is - "why, all psychodynamic knowledge aside, does it still seem so hard to enjoy oneself?" (Like Peterson, for instance.)
3674
3675The most obvious answer is "them! They are making me feel so critical!"
3676
3677I do have to admit, while I found critiquing Dunham/THC a bit cathartic I wouldn't claim it was deeply satisfying - as in it wasn't a demonstration of my highest values and the more I think about it I'm not entirely comfortable with being critical.
3678
3679It's in that way that I think ones own guilt - in this case mine about not being more kind- leads me to being critical.
3680
3681In terms of "responsibility" ethics, this smacks of blame and is confusing from Peterson and Solomon. I know they mean well - but I think the right ego-analytical way of talking about the same emotion is in terms of caring about your life. Don't tell people they aren't being responsible, ask them if they care about their life. There are many compensations for not doing so - such as denigrating the given world in the case of the SJW foils of Peterson.
3682
3683Ultimately, many people who are suffering do not authentically care about their life and can't act in their own long term interests.
3684
3685Hotel Concierge: Who Framed Lena Dunham?
3686
3687Thanks for saying that!
3688
3689Hotel Concierge: Who Framed Lena Dunham?
3690
3691That example is a little difficult since the kid is the one who threw the ball. He might laugh because his Dad is making a funny noise and he cannot identify that this signals pain.
3692
3693Hotel Concierge: Who Framed Lena Dunham?
3694
3695Could you try saying that again - I'm a little confused.
3696
3697Hotel Concierge: Who Framed Lena Dunham?
3698
3699Personally I find the metaemotion conversation of Gottman, et. al. to be explaining something psychoanalysts already knew in a worse way.
3700
3701The general resistance to this line of thinking I attribute with Apfelbaum to how vulnerable it makes the therapist to feeling bad. It can't be underestimated that whole schools of psychological thinking represent defensive postures.
3702
3703Interesting book on a related angle of the subject is Faces In A Cloud. https://www.amazon.com/Faces-Cloud-Intersubjectivity-Personality-Theory/dp/0765702002
3704
3705Talking to yourself
3706
3707I think I see what you are saying - there can be other reasons people talk to themselves, for sure. But even something like giving oneself a pep talk, beating oneself up, etc. seem to me to have something to do with a certain stimulation of the ego which is akin to fantasizing about a kind of attention you'd get from someone else.
3708
3709Hotel Concierge: Who Framed Lena Dunham?
3710
3711Thanks for saying that!
3712
3713Talking to yourself
3714
3715Maybe this helps:
3716
3717Psychodynamic thinking - i.e. you have "parts" of your self like the ego and superego, etc.
3718
3719The superego is the "precipitate of abandoned object cathexes" i.e. the emotional impact of past relationships. So that part of you which observes the other part of you is the emotional memory of past relationships - usually relationship problems.
3720
3721Talking to yourself usually involves a fantasy about the emotional tone of a real or imagined listener - which in my understanding of the question is a part of yourself.
3722
3723So, one way out of a depressive monologue might be to realize that the kind of attention your really want is a sympathetic listener. What prevents this realization is generally self hatred - you could say that you don't believe you would give this attention to someone else therefore don't deserve it.
3724
3725The idea clicked for me after reading Ego and The Pursuit of Attention - good book, highly recommended.
3726
3727I think "It sounded better in my head" is a slightly embarrassed response to people not giving you the sort of attention you were hoping for - misunderstanding or more often than not resisting you with their own defenses if they are not actively trying to attune to your feelings.
3728
3729Hotel Concierge: Who Framed Lena Dunham?
3730
3731Bingo! Serious deep troubles often come from identifying with defensive parts of ones personality - you could say THE genesis of character disorders. One thing this means is that people in this situation tend to convince others of the same thing.
3732
3733Hotel Concierge: Who Framed Lena Dunham?
3734
3735Yeah, there are definitely actions which aren't defences. Call them "ego syntonic" or just identify things people do which they enjoy without any evidence of inhibition, compulsion, etc. Kind of a state of emotional flow.
3736
3737I was half kidding about my writing. Used true than it is now, but thanks for saying what you did.
3738
3739Hotel Concierge: Who Framed Lena Dunham?
3740
3741Golden - the object can't be perfect, but you nevertheless can start caring for the object instead of trying to control, punish, avoid, dominate or change other people.
3742
3743A fundamental "good enough" or OK'ness in self and others.
3744
3745Talking to yourself
3746
3747I think it's a substitute for an unmet relationship need. It's a kind of fantasy about the type of attention you want.
3748
3749Hotel Concierge: Who Framed Lena Dunham?
3750
3751Haha - you got it! Which is exactly why I am symptomatically too critical.
3752
3753From that perspective when I stop to consider, I was reading the article with the intention of criticising, finding fault and sounding smart in order to draw attention to myself as a function of my ego and its defenses.
3754
3755The fun never ends - no matter how much you want to make it stop!
3756
3757Hotel Concierge: Who Framed Lena Dunham?
3758
3759Precisely!!!
3760
3761Hotel Concierge: Who Framed Lena Dunham?
3762
3763Let's not confuse what we mean by a "psychological defense" as in defense mechanism of the ego, which is what I'm talking about, with a physical strategy or tactic - which is how you are using the word defense.
3764
3765You are correct it is painful to attune to a chaotic person - which is why people refuse to do so, which is why they feel guilty about it, and therefore blame the difficult person for the guilt blowing right past the fact that they have never dealt with the truth - that the difficult person is responsible for the **pain, not the guilt and they thus project the guilt through blame/shame.
3766
3767This is important to understand the difference between protecting life/limb/property and protecting the ego.
3768
3769If one resents Lena Dunham for being a jerk it is pretty far fetched to justify lashing out at her as protecting the community. It's an exaggeration of the risk of her behavior. The same is true for most difficult people, and it also remains true that the reason difficult people resort to violence is because they feel disrespected by others. So the strategy doesn't hold up either way you slice it, but the impulse makes sense.
3770
3771This is precisely why there are so many people who look like narcissists - because everyone responds to them like a narcissist because of an anxious phobia about being overwhelmed - which is an inability to resist projective identification.
3772
3773Hotel Concierge: Who Framed Lena Dunham?
3774
3775Right - so the affect of disgust/contempt/dismell is a defense against the introjection of emotional stimuli from other people which would shock the ego.
3776
3777You are right it is normal - but that doesn't mean it provides insight or the opportunity to change the dynamic. Which for strangers is fine, but not in long terms social relations.
3778
3779Generally the contempt is a reaction to projective identification. For instance, if one of your cluster B's is trying to "put shame into you" the contempt response doubles down on them instead of a compassionate response which might help them relieve shame (without embracing the projection). The problem here is that it leaves the cluster B with more shame, a conditioned response, and a leaves both people with a lack of insight about what is happening.
3780
3781The "doubling down" causes guilt. What suppresses the guilt is the resentment which accompanies the idea "they deserve it."
3782
3783The difference between a practical defense and an ego defense is that the latter is not in our own best interests, but it seems like the most important thing in the world.
3784
3785Hotel Concierge: Who Framed Lena Dunham?
3786
3787There is a difference between happenstance befalling somebody and the feeling of deserved suffering. The subjective feeling of deserving is at the heart of the issue - which keeps us from realizing it is our aggression, not abstract and projected onto society or metaphysicial morals somewhere in the ether.
3788
3789What do you mean by masochism and empathy? These are technical terms as well so help me understand how you're using them.
3790
3791Hotel Concierge: Who Framed Lena Dunham?
3792
3793It depends on what you mean by "people who are cluster B."
3794
3795The idea of a "diagnosis" ignores the fact that what we are explaining when you call someone a narcissist, for example, is how to explain our reaction to them. People who are pleasant to be around require no explanation.
3796
3797We have to be careful not to create a tautology "Isn't it simply true that good people dislike unlikeable people?"
3798
3799Freud's guilt theories were all about how people felt about their hatred.
3800
3801Hotel Concierge: Who Framed Lena Dunham?
3802
3803One important thing people misunderstand about schadenfreude is that it is relief when something bad happens to others instead of to us. Not just that something bad happens... Another important component is that it feels like they deserve it.
3804
3805In the case of tabloids THC misses the fact that reading about how horrible Lena Dunham is allows people to avoid guilt and shame. This is the point of resentment/scapegoating. In order to resent Lena Dunham, one probably feels some degree of guilt (as opposed to merely having pity for her). After all, everyone knows at some level how stupid it is to look down on others to feel better about oneself.
3806
3807Furthermore, it's entirely possible that people like Lena Dunham do embarrassing things because people are looking down on them - in other words they sense a sea change and compulsively do something stupid to break the tension.
3808
3809You know this is all true because THC, like TLP concludes that people are expressing their real cruelty and hostility through contempt - as opposed to trying to free themselves from guilt. The reason they do this is because we blame them for it and won't let them free.
3810
3811In the same way, the way Lena Dunham feels around Odell Beckhem goes like this: First, she can't really admit she wants positive attention, which is why she was dressed as she was. Second, she thinks her feelings of self hatred come from other people - like Beckhem. This shames her. Since she thinks it comes from Beckhem, not herself, she broadcasts it in public - which brings the reaction she is suppressing (return of the repressed).
3812
3813This is all for Dunham to avoid feeling guilty for judging Odell, which is to say just like the tabloids are for the reader to avoid feeling guilty about judging Dunham.
3814
3815We look for things to hate so we can avoid feeling guilty. It is the projection of guilt, the destruction of the object - as a magical gesture to transform a self-state. This process is concealed by shame.
3816
3817It's worth noting Odell probably didn't feel entirely comfortable with his dismissal (if it indeed happened psychologically for him). People who really feel comfortable with contempt act like school kids - laughing and pointing at fatties, and having a good time doing it.
3818
3819Love is just a relationship that hasn't died out
3820
3821It's a bit of a confusing metaphor. Love is not a verb. It is an emotion which signals the presence of motivations to perform actions with respect to the object of our affection. These actions will fall broadly into the categories of: Improve, protect, connect, appreciate.
3822
3823Thoughts about CBT?
3824
3825My pleasure!
3826
3827Learning HOW to want(?)
3828
3829The answer is whether you feel guilty or not and this depends ones level of ego development. If you are not mature, you experience guilt as coming from other people.
3830
3831You might be responsible for something which others blame you for but still not feel guilty if what you did was in line with your highest values.
3832
3833Rant 2
3834
3835I think I understand you better, thanks. A point to consider:
3836
3837It seems to me that a critiuqe of french thinkers (if we mean critical theory) is that they take every freeing realization of relativism that could help one transcend the ego and conclude therefore marxism. It hasn't seemed to help anyone realize that the impulse for utopia, based on a criticism of the present system, is an ego function born from resentment - blaming the current system, rather than oneself, for the feelings one has to the given system.
3838
3839Learning HOW to want(?)
3840
3841I think self hatred reflects guilt avoidance. This is technical in that the effect of repression is symptomatic over-expression.
3842
3843So the symptom (self-hatred) is the consequence of repressing more ordinary guilt.
3844
3845http://www.yorku.ca/dcarveth/guilt.html
3846
3847Ordiary guilt could sort of simply look like you are not living up to your highest standards - perhaps treating people poorly and blaming others for your resentment.
3848
3849Rant 2
3850
3851I look forward to reading round three. Thanks for the repartee. For the record, not a fan of most of academia - that part of your correspondence I take no issue with. It's just some of the other notions you connect this with do I find strong objections.
3852
3853Rant 2
3854
3855now we have instead this social darwinistic free-for-all.
3856
3857I think this characterization is excessive. The ratio between opportunities and competition is pretty good - and western civilization can't be characterized as a ruthless struggle for domination in civic life.
3858
3859People do pick prestigious roles, but also balance these choices based on their inhibitions. So you have motive forces - like desire, which generally exist in a field of constricting forces such as shame and guilt. People with poorly developed mental health think that shame and guilt are put into them by others, making it impossible for them to succeed and resulting in resentment.
3860
3861Rant 2
3862
3863Seeing everything through the lens of power dynamics is generally the result of a psychological attitude. People who aren't stuck in this situation can make their life better every day, and do so, because they are focused on creating value and being helpful.
3864
3865It's true that the master/slave dynamic is perhaps the fundamental ontological experience of human beings. But the most important psychological truths are those which have revealed to us that this dynamic is a feeling the shackles of which can be thrown.
3866
3867Certain things feel like surrender which are not - this feeling is a good indication of an ego defense in action.
3868
3869Rant 2
3870
3871Along another most basic idea its just that in its most basic structure our society is not that different from that of classical aristocracy.
3872
3873I have to keep going back to some of your basic characterizations. In what way does our society resemble classical aristocracy? I don't see this. The hallmarks of aristocracy were hereditary landed wealth. Most wealthy people (80% of millionaires in america) are first generation wealth.
3874
3875As of 2004 59% of the Forbes 400 did not inherit their wealth and 5% were completely self made - meaning they battled severe adversity like Oprah who came from trauma or, dare I invoke his name, George Soros who survived trauma.
3876
3877Rant 2
3878
3879Could you define the "current distorted view" of psychology/philosophy for me and distinguish it from what you consider the "more rational view."
3880
3881I'm not saying this to insult your opinion - I'm just having a hard time following you. Maybe we could take it one step at a time. It seems to me you start here:
3882
3883We are living in a specific point in history, the endtail of classical french enlightenment. You could say people are thought in school to strongly identify with ideals that were developed for and by an aristocracy, but without the possibility of actuallizing that identity. A break-down of the master slave-dialectic.
3884
3885The ideals of the French enlightenment to which I think you are referring are not aristocratic but are bourgeois. It has never been easier for the "proletariat," if that term has any meaning, to become part of the bourgeoisie.
3886
3887Here is an article comparing the overlap and the differences of the values of the aristocratic classes and bourgeois classes of English and French 18th century persons. Which values are you referring to in the section of your response which I quote?
3888
3889http://www.wright.edu/~christopher.oldstone-moore/aristoessay.htm
3890
3891Living a "good life" would seem to be accomplished by living one in which you are lead by your deepest values. Unless one thinks that humanity's deepest values are mammon and power it seems to me that I'm pretty safe in assuming class differences today are an excuse for, not a cause of - suffering.
3892
3893Learning HOW to want(?)
3894
3895I'm not sure I follow the question - perhaps because flowers are pretty and they smell nice? Or perhaps as a reminder that -despite our tendency to doubt whether others are thinking about us or not - it's nice to be reminded that someone is thinking about you?
3896
3897Don't get me wrong, there are occasionally reasons to resent women - I just don't think this is one of them.
3898
3899Rant 2
3900
3901I may have missed the key note of your OP, sorry about that, if you could highlight the most important part to you I'd love to respond to that.
3902
3903One of the key issues I want to focus on is your claim that psychological phenomena are not best understood/addressed in the context of the individual - but rather are a result primarily of the individuals real position in society.
3904
3905Now, I don't want to put words in your mouth - so if you could help me rephrase the above into something short and sweet that reflects your claim before we go too far along that would be great.
3906
3907My main point is that I don't agree with that idea, as I inferred it from you, - and I think much of the rest of your conversation relies upon it.
3908
3909Learning HOW to want(?)
3910
3911Yes, and some like to know you care. One way you can show someone you care is by doing something that is important to them - willingly - because it is important to them.
3912
3913Learning HOW to want(?)
3914
3915Perhaps a less metaphorical way of thinking about this is learning how to change what you mean instead of focusing on changing what you say or think, or even do.
3916
3917An example would be that last year you bought your girlfriend flowers because "blah blah social expectation" and secretly resented doing it and feeling controlled, but THIS year you bought her flowers because you wanted to make her happy.
3918
3919It's learning to "self regulate" or change your motivation. There is a subtle but crucial difference between this and simply repressing how you feel.
3920
3921The process would involve paying attention to emotional consequences that one is currently trying to ignore - like guilt and shame. For people who are struggling with guilt and shame these feelings feel like punishment from others, society or oneself. However, to reach ones potential its necessary to learn that the guilt and shame, like all emotions, represent a motivation to action.
3922
3923The result of learning how to want would be to realize shame is a signal to make oneself useful, productive or valuable and guilt is a signal to care for others.
3924
3925It is difficult because I don't just mean "act" caring, I mean to feel the emotion of caring - which if you don't is one of the hardest things to do.
3926
3927Rant 2
3928
3929I hear ya. The world can look like a mess, but it can also be beautiful. Life is either ice cream with occasional shit or shit with a little ice cream.
3930
3931I'm not saying the solution is to "change what you think." If you don't like the fact that the world is the way it is one has to change what one means by not liking the wolrd.
3932
3933As in - is a negative view of the world (a) a call for compassion and solidarity amidst distress, (b) a justification for suppressing the motivating force of shame and guilt to do something about it, (c) something else?
3934
3935Now, do you really mean what you say when you say that
3936
3937"Meritocracy" is just a most obvious evolution from feudalism. The basic gap exists on: There are people who are in control and feel good about themselves, and there are people who are not in control and feel bad about themselves. That's about it. The fact that there are whole fields who treat this like some giant mystery, just further drives home the picture.
3938
3939I believe that privilege theory is a defense against shame for not supporting your community.
3940
3941You are certainly not alone in your conclusions. Anti-Oedipus most famously made this kind of argument. You may want to consider some of the conversations about that book.
3942
3943That one feels bad about oneself in comparison to others does not mean that these bad feelings are inflicted as a punishment by bad other people. Emotions are motivating forces, which by historical underclasses are suppressed. They are being suppressed in order to avoid the pain of inferiority feelings. If you don't feel inferior, you don't act inferior, and you make your life better every day - no matter where you start from.
3944
3945Now here's the kicker: The way the underclass suppresses inferiority feelings is by projecting a devaluing attitude on people who appear or are better off.
3946
3947There are many reasons people start poor, but the reason they stay poor if they don't like being that way is that are repressing feelings of inferiority.
3948
3949The way you capture the process of psychology is an example of ID analysis at work. The expectation of being bullied and guilted by therapy is sometimes accurate, but is also often an effect of the super ego. To answer your ending question if a therapist enjoys their job and finds it meaningful I would imagine they could learn to find other work meaningful, too.
3950
3951Deep therapy can be very emotionally challenging to deliver. Some leave the field and enjoy other work much more.
3952
3953Your kids should not be the most important people in the family
3954
3955You're right though - I hadn't thought of that angle. Instead of being hungry for stimulation from other humans we are cracked out on stimulation and resent those who try to turn our attention.
3956
3957Your kids should not be the most important people in the family
3958
3959The reason everyone looks like a narcissist is because everyone responds to apparent narcissism with narcissism. It's a double bind. A more interesting question is what changed about our judgmental response to others which makes it look like this generation is worse than others in the past?
3960
3961Thoughts about CBT?
3962
3963I don't know about "properly," but for most people in therapy they don't really "know what they mean." By this I mean the function of repression is that it makes you doubt yourself based on the role of shame and guilt.
3964
3965I think the goal for a therapist should be to help people explore what they mean by having a unique conversation in which they get to investigate their shame/guilt without having it reinforced.
3966
3967Tomato Tomahto, Bollas Ballas?
3968
3969It's real confusing - Christopher Ballas is purportedly TLP. However, there is another famous psychoanalyst named Christopher Bollas. The later is equally brilliant, more clinical, and incredibly worth reading. I recommend "The Transformational Object."
3970
3971Not the same person - relatively far apart in theoretical orientation, too.
3972
3973Thoughts about CBT?
3974
3975Think of it this way: It does no good to change what a person says, or even what they "think" if you don't address what they mean. CBT is mostly the delusion that these are the same thing, a self-deception which is motivated by a desire to avoid emotional reality.
3976
3977Your kids should not be the most important people in the family
3978
3979I think that quite frankly modern people suffer from having too many stimulating demands on their attention. It isn't about time - it's about attention.
3980
3981One's sense of self is attuned by the attention of others. What looks like entitlement is generally a compulsive response to the anxious need to control others attention. Which is legitimate, because other people are more distracted than ever.
3982
3983The four double-binds that psych-iatry/ology/otherapy/etc use to trick patients into accepting the form of their questioning, thus to be lead to their desired conclusions whilst using the power of the system to make it literally impossible for patients to argue the form of the questioning itself.
3984
3985I always liked Apfelbaum's take which is to "see a patients symptoms as a window into the human experience."
3986
3987He gave an example of a schizophrenic who thought he was infecting other people. His recommended way of looking at this is perhaps as an exaggerated form of the ordinary sense that you're bad to be around.
3988
3989Two Attitudes in Psychiatry (From SSC)
3990
3991Good article. I see from the About section that Scott is a psychiatrist. Do you happen to know if he underwent a long-term therapy of his own? His discomfort with the unconscious evidenced by his closing admissions makes me wonder if he had his own long term depth therapy to work through those anxieties.
3992
3993Good read.
3994
3995"In other words, fire is caused by smoke?" -- the Berkeley Barb interview with Apfelbaum
3996
3997Yes and know, it's more complicated than that. Freud's original idea was that interpretations are designed to bypass the ego and make something unconscious become conscious. This is the interpretation of defenses. Apfelbaum's position is that the benchmark for a therapeutic interpretation is whether or not it feels good or reduces tension.
3998
3999His most classic example about this is passive aggression. Most people hear that and assume the goal is to deal with the aggression. Sometimes even the patient thinks this is the problem - most other people do. Very often the problem is the passivity. By this we mean passive aggression becomes a compulsion/problem because excessive guilt/shame about being agrressive causes the person to repress it. This repression is the causal factor in the behavior manifesting in an exaggerated and poorly controlled compulsive way.
4000
4001So to early Freud, the "insight" was people admitting something nasty about themselves. To late Freud and Apfelbaum, the insight is for people to become aware of how guilt and shame are crippling their enjoyment of life.
4002
4003Victimary Passion ? Chronicles of Love and Resentment
4004
4005I don't know about advocacy, I'll probably have to go back to Gans. He's more descriptive to me.
4006
4007There have always been slave revolts when too few people control too much, and I don't suspect this will change regardless of the dominant values narrative. In the past this was to redistribute the land, this time it will be to cancel the debts.
4008
4009Regardless of how unfair a persons lot in life is the most relevant advice is almost always to work harder and be more disciplined.
4010
4011Beyond that I'm not enough of a Gans expert to answer quickly. I'd love to take this conversation down the research path and learn with you though - so let me know what you turn up!
4012
4013Victimary Passion ? Chronicles of Love and Resentment
4014
4015Seeing firstness from the domination standpoint is colored by resentment to the victimary. The ethical value of firstness is that people who offer value as mimetic role-models have the advantage(priviledge) of being closer to the origniary center.
4016
4017So you have the periphery (not center) position + admiration for pure "firstness" morality. But you also have the periphery + resentment (lack)
4018
4019Gans has a good youtube lecture on Derrida somewhere which touches on Pierce's quote - but this looks more like differentiation rather than firstness.
4020
4021Victimary Passion ? Chronicles of Love and Resentment
4022
4023I don't know of any example in the chronicles, no. But in regards to the final question I think he would reject the form of the question as I did - or perhaps personalize it. A brief summary can be found here:
4024
4025http://anthropoetics.ucla.edu/Gaintro/
4026
4027I'll quote:
4028
4029Economics and Politics
4030The most significant implications of the originary hypothesis in the domain of social organization are the distinctions between morality and ethics and between the central cultural and the eccentric economic spheres of the social order.
4031
4032All humans have in common the moral model constituted by the originary event. The equalitarian intuition expressed by the Declaration of Independence?s ?all men are created equal? is modeled on the symmetry of the participants? exchange of linguistic signs around the central object. The universal moral model contrasts with the historically specific ethics of given social orders, whose contingency reflects the obligation to deal with the exchange of (scarce) things as opposed to (indefinitely reproducible) signs. Economic activity, the production of objects of potential practical value, takes place away from the ritual center of society; the return of these objects to the center for communal evaluation is the originary model of the marketplace.
4033
4034The originary foundation of ethics in morality, as understood within the Judaeo-Christian tradition, reaches its highest development in the Gospel utopia of the Kingdom of God, where the moral model itself serves as an ethic. In the Christian West, the free market emerges as the historical adaptation of the moral model to the exchange of things; each individual freely brings his goods for evaluation to the market, where prices are fixed by mutual agreement. As a means of mitigating the generalized resentment that results from the tension between equality of moral and legal status and inequality of economic means, the liberal-democratic system of government supplements the economic market with a political marketplace that reaffirms the moral model by giving each citizen a ?voice? or vote in the political process by means of which individual and group resentments are negotiated.
4035
4036You are *never* doing what you want.
4037
4038Here I'd reference McLuhan's "violence as quest for identity" and James Gilligan again.
4039
4040I'd ask you to break down how "loneliness" is different from an "outsider" perspective. The latter seems to ring to me, but may involve an obsession with rather than a longing for other people.
4041
4042My research points to being disrespected/shamed is the most common route to violence, which is related to loneliness.
4043
4044Victimary Passion ? Chronicles of Love and Resentment
4045
4046That's sort of what a culture is, isn't it?
4047
4048"In other words, fire is caused by smoke?" -- the Berkeley Barb interview with Apfelbaum
4049
4050Yep!
4051
4052The anti-psychiatry movement was based on a strawman.
4053
4054You are *never* doing what you want.
4055
4056Generally the belief that people are "always doing what they really want to* is for the listener, to justify their own criticisms of the speaker.
4057
4058"In other words, fire is caused by smoke?" -- the Berkeley Barb interview with Apfelbaum
4059
4060The general approach is to offer interpretations (in the psychoanalytical sense) from the side of the ego. This is a bit technical, but ordinarily therapists make the mistake of hearing things from the side of the superego or perhaps strengthening defenses.
4061
4062He has a technical article about this from the 70's (?) called "Ego Analysis and the Relativity of Defense." For more vernacular discussion check out his website for "Analyzing, not Psychoanalyzing" or his associate Dan Wile's shorter essay on his website.
4063
4064Also, Apfelbaum on "How to be and Instant Ego Analyst" for the surface level. I've highlighted the clearest one:
4065
4066      HOW TO BE AN INSTANT EGO ANALYST *
4067Instead of saying, "Mary is covering a lot of anger," say, "Mary is unable to be (comfortably/satisfyingly/enjoyably) angry."
4068Instead of saying, "If Jack really felt guilty about what he did he?d make amends," say, "Jack may feel so guilty he can?t make amends."
4069Instead of saying, "Jill sees all men as like her father," say, "Jill has been sensitized to all the ways men are like her father."
4070Instead of saying, "Fred is passive-aggressive," meaning that he is really being hostile but denying it or acting innocent, say the same thing, but mean that Fred suffers from being too passive and unable to be directly hostile. *5. Instead of saying, "Jimmy Swaggart?s having sex with a prostitute is an example of sexuality breaking through repression," say, "Jimmy Swaggart?s having sex with a prostitute is an example of repression," meaning that repression typically results in symptomatic (uncontrolled) over-expression. *
4071Instead of saying, "Jane is too dependent," say, "Jane is unable to be effectively dependent."
4072Instead of saying, "George is narcissistic," say, "George is doing a poor job of impressing people, which is why we see him as narcissistic."
4073When Frank says, "Well, I only act the way I do with Helen because she treats me the way she does," say, "I?m sure you are right, and so would she be if she said the same thing."
4074If Henry acts like he has a victim mentality, you lose your chance to be an ego analyst if you tell him that there are no victims, only people avoiding responsibility. You can be an instant ego analyst if you realize that your impulse to tell him that reflects his inability to be convincing about his plight, meaning that he is already secretly condemning himself for acting like a victim. *see also Becoming a Spokesperson Bernard Apfelbaum, PhD
4075Victimary Passion ? Chronicles of Love and Resentment
4076
4077He's not much into should. In our thinking should would mean "whale-toe feels his resentments are justified." I think a less extreme way of saying this may be "When would victimary resentments against the free market be understandable to reasonable people?" As in, when could we say people who deny resentment are being unreasonable. I think it's pretty reasonable that if 8 people have as much as 3.6 billion other people it seems reasonable to expect that no matter how wonderful these 8 people are there will be some reasonable expectation of resentment.
4078
4079Victimary Passion ? Chronicles of Love and Resentment
4080
4081I believe elsewhere in the Chronicles he mentions a point I've repeated: Markets are great in that they create substitute goods which helps people avoid direct competition (I don't need to covet your shoes if I can go buy the same pair - it's about the shoes now, not you and me.) He's also mentioned that markets tend to favor "firstness." Not sure if he has squared the circle on this one, but markets also tend to exaggerate firstness, in a way that increases resentment, in my view.
4082
4083There is also the matter that every solution creates new problems. Given that most forms of caste have been done away with the nice part is that you don't have as many forms of resentment. however, the downside is that everyone is now in competition with everybody.
4084
4085A thousand years ago if you were born a peasant you would die a peasant. You only worried about competing with peasants and could safely blame all your problems on the nobles. These days, if you're born a peasant in some way people expect you to bootstrap your way to nobility. While this is of course possible and a wonderful freedom, I ask you in the year of our lord 2016 how many peasants will really die lords? This freedom, ironically, creates resentment, it does not reduce it.
4086
4087Victimary Passion ? Chronicles of Love and Resentment
4088
4089Here is some good related work on economics from this lineage of thinking: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eusHpPO0fI
4090
4091i'll come back to this later, but the most important part of economics Gans et al would criticize is the subjective theory of value (Jevons,Walrus,Menger) which in light of GA is clearly a self-serving psychological delusion to hide the role of one's "mediator" in the process of desire.
4092
4093Gans general direction forward is to restore a balance of "firstness" and "reciprocity." These are two equally valid moral principals in constant, irresolvable tension which will never, ever be solved. His diagnosis, which I agree with, is simply that the "victimary" perspective has become overbalanced.
4094
4095You are *never* doing what you want.
4096
4097I have deep and abiding love of TLP, but the first blog post I wrote highlights a deep and abiding difference of analytical framework: http://theblondbeast.com/uncategorized/the-last-psychiatrist-is-an-id-analyist-disguised-as-a-self-psychologist/
4098
4099In this example, the client was being self critical. TLP, like most "Id" analysts takes this as a sort of con, an unconscious trick where someone is trying to squeeze validation from them.
4100
4101People hardly ever do what they want.
4102
4103Of course, this distinction also depends on a sort of tautological definition of "want" but without going down that rabbit hole what we mean by this in psychoanalyses I think should be what we want, but for our feelings about other people.
4104
4105Even, nay especially, violent criminals are deeply focused on other people when they commit violent crimes. Just not in the way we are used to.
4106
4107TLP means "really, everything is a defense except what you do - you naughty little narcissists you."
4108
4109TLP was a psychiatrist, but as far as I know or can tell he was not accredited to practice psychoanalysis. He had education and personal interest in it as a psychiatrist, but that is different than having been trained in one of the institutes.
4110
4111It doesn't occur to most people that if someone is hiding the fact that they want your concern and approval that instead of guilting them into admitting this con you could instead help them feel more entitled and confident in doing so. Only when you do this do you realize that they were already feeling guilty about what they were unconsciously doing - which is why they were hiding it in the first place.
4112
4113"In other words, fire is caused by smoke?" -- the Berkeley Barb interview with Apfelbaum
4114
4115"...the only people for me are the mad ones, the ones who are mad to live, mad to talk, mad to be saved, desirous of everything at the same time, the ones who never yawn or say a commonplace thing, but burn, burn, burn like fabulous yellow roman candles exploding like spiders across the stars and in the middle you see the blue centerlight pop and everybody goes "Awww!"
4116
4117Notwithstanding Alone's criticism of On The Road I'd point out that it seems obvious to this reader that neither Dean nor Sal really enjoyed themselves. This fact was lost on most readers.
4118
4119"In other words, fire is caused by smoke?" -- the Berkeley Barb interview with Apfelbaum
4120
4121Haha! That's how people typically try to solve it. Maybe we have so much apparent "narcissism" because we have too much information about other people? They aren't sacred mysteries.
4122
4123Critique of psychoanalytic notions of "healthy narcissism," "primary narcissism," and narcissism as a continuous spectrum.
4124
4125Bingo! It's a catch all for people who are struggling with individuality/selfhood, which means relationships, which means almost everyone.
4126
4127Thoughts about CBT?
4128
4129thank you much - let me know what you think of the linked material once you digest it
4130
4131Thoughts about CBT?
4132
4133I generally put REBT in the same camp and think it's a disaster, though I like Ellis better personally. I think he's a hoot. Generally CBT and REBT take control of therapy sessions and I believe, push people into submission.
4134
4135See it in action: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odnoF8V3g6g.
4136
4137I share Apfelbaum's view of CBT if I'm not being so polemical: https://egoanalysisessays.wordpress.com/2016/09/21/ego-analysis-as-a-deeper-form-of-cognitive-therapy/
4138
4139Critique of psychoanalytic notions of "healthy narcissism," "primary narcissism," and narcissism as a continuous spectrum.
4140
4141Yeah, I get that but my point was that his conclusion is valid within a language box he made about the definition of narcissism and that he should abandon the definition, such as "likes attention" instead of abandoning the conclusion.
4142
4143Communal relationships are difficult because every group creates a morality - by which I mean things we guilt/shame eachother for, which then becomes part of our superego, which we then repress.
4144
4145So at work for instance - the morality of an office may be to work hard. This obviously effects employess who now will hide any feelings of laziness and distraction since not working hard is unacceptable, a moral violation of the culture. They will further beat themselves up about not working hard, finding themselves distracted by facebook and reddit all day. When they do engage with their coworkers and management it will be phony attempts to allay their fears of punishment and guilt about violating the moral expectation of the group. Everyone thus looks dishonest, vain, focused on external perceptions - and extremely narcissistic.
4146
4147On a similar vein a corporate or religious culture of diversity creates a morality of inclusiveness, which causes people to suppress their judgmental attitutdes should they arise - this leads eventually to scapegoating someone else and not realizing you are scapegoating. My obvious claim here would be straight white men.
4148
4149Someone who is not thinking analytically would look at both these situations with common sense moralizing and say "Well, of course people should work hard and be inclusive, and if you're not you are being bad."
4150
4151All of life is contained in what is missing from the previous sentence.
4152
4153"In other words, fire is caused by smoke?" -- the Berkeley Barb interview with Apfelbaum
4154
4155The most important part of the article is this:
4156
4157The trouble with focusing on Jill?s feeling guilty because she wants to screw is that it bypasses what is so obvious we find it hard to see, her guilt about not wanting to screw Jack.
4158
4159If she didn't feel bad about not wanting to screw Jack she never would have come to therapy in the first place.
4160
4161Quite brilliant! Glad the admin is posting new content!!!
4162
4163And there?s the bind. If she?s not free to be turned off, she?s not free to be turned on. It?s like she?s got this big responsibility to come through. Maybe to help us all to hang on to our fantasy that sex is beautiful.
4164
4165It's like Bateson's double bind is underneath everything.
4166
4167The most important thing about ego-analysis:
4168
4169When you?re guilty about an impulse, you still act on it, but in a half-assed way.
4170
4171And don't forget!
4172
4173It?s based on the idea that if you didn?t want to do a thing, you wouldn?t do it, that people always do what they want. That?s an unassailable half-truth. The other half of the truth is that people never do what they want.
4174
4175Security commentator John Coan on NPR mentioned that the greatest terrorist threat is internet users who "self associate" with terrorist ideals for psychological and behavioral reasons.
4176
4177I hear it as wishful thinking that there is a solution to preventing terrorism when an enemy lives in your midst.
4178
4179Critique of psychoanalytic notions of "healthy narcissism," "primary narcissism," and narcissism as a continuous spectrum.
4180
4181All-in-all a good read, but one that doesn't deal with some of the tensions of the narcissistic conversation. I'm definitely of the school of thinking that if someone develops a strong ego at least they won't be a problem for themselves.
4182
4183It's just never precisely clear what an "adequate" level of self esteem is, from the authors concluding paragraph. My point at this juncture is that the whole conversation is inherently comparative to others and involves a subjective phenomenological mimetic impression, because the self is a representation of the organism in comparison to others.
4184
4185Other than that I think "group narcissism" or any of its derivatives describes what happens everywhere there is a breakdown in communal relationships - which is almost everywhere all the time.
4186
4187The author's conclusions about the ubiquity of narcissism in my mind show that he should abandon his definition of narcissism, not the conclusion that it is ubiquitous.
4188
4189Thoughts about CBT?
4190
4191Part of the important criticism I have with CBT is what they mean by "thought pattern" and how this relates to propositional phrases people verbally speak. I don't think they understand either of these things accurately.
4192
4193The real question is not why are there so few elite female lawyers, the real question is why are there any men at all willing to work and only work for 100 hours every week: Jordan Peterson explains 'Female Totalitarianism' and other white hot psychological issues
4194
4195Well made point. Just reminded me of a favorite quote by Afred Adler - about how often times the biggest tragedy in life is taking too many precautions.
4196
4197This may not apply to extreme situations of life/death/career loss - but I think its good advice nonetheless.
4198
4199The real question is not why are there so few elite female lawyers, the real question is why are there any men at all willing to work and only work for 100 hours every week: Jordan Peterson explains 'Female Totalitarianism' and other white hot psychological issues
4200
4201Favorite line "You can suffer the consequences of having a voice or the consequences of not having a voice."
4202
4203Does anyone here read Marginal Revolution regularly? Thoughts on Tyler Cowen's new book "The Complacent Class" welcomed.
4204
4205It's hard when part of your job is not to have an identity around your clients (to be fair this is an exaggeration). Psychologists deal with this by unconsciously convincing themselves they have discovered something new that they need to write a book about.
4206
4207So yes, your office is part of your identity you get to project. For those looking for a therapist, a good touchstone is whether they have a copy of Psychology Today in the foyer. If they do - run.
4208
4209Advice for therapists entails all the contradictions of psychology itself. For instance: Don't dress slovenly, people are paying you for a professional service. But don't dress in a suit and tie, this might intimidate lower socio-economic classes. But you shouldn't be solving these problems for other people - just be aware of them, but don't obsess about them, and if you do, remember it's natural - but you don't have to fit in with others, even though this desire is perfectly normal, wait didn't I just say that?
4210
4211The real question is not why are there so few elite female lawyers, the real question is why are there any men at all willing to work and only work for 100 hours every week: Jordan Peterson explains 'Female Totalitarianism' and other white hot psychological issues
4212
4213Simply the best!
4214
4215I'm a little less biologically based in my thinking than Peterson, but I think its an unnecessary argument anyway.
4216
4217Does anyone here read Marginal Revolution regularly? Thoughts on Tyler Cowen's new book "The Complacent Class" welcomed.
4218
4219They are the cultural heroes of the salaried class - basically anybody who has a tv show about their job (Lawyers, Doctors, Silicon valley).
4220
4221Does anyone here read Marginal Revolution regularly? Thoughts on Tyler Cowen's new book "The Complacent Class" welcomed.
4222
4223I don't read it regularly. Cowen's thesis in Complacent Class sounds compelling. Some of the reviews hit on the most obvious, if hasty, objections - such as change being neutral and the object of change providing the motive force - in addition to the question of opportunity. If you get it I'd like to know more.
4224
4225It brought to mind John Michael Greers take on class. He says, and I agree, that the proper way to understand class is by where people get there money: Is it wellfare, hourly wages, salary, or investment returns/bonus. These are the modern class lines. From his standpoint I think the salaried class takes bigger moves than the wage class, regardless of relative compensation - partially due to a paucity of opportunity and partly because of a default option of becoming part of the wellfare class.
4226
4227Class is not about income, it's about identity. Making $40,000 a year as a public defender puts you in a different class than making $90,000 a year as a union welder. These people tend to think they are different kinds of people. This nexus is where people's true motivations lie. It was never about the money.
4228
4229Thoughts about CBT?
4230
4231Yep, misunderstood you - and now get you. Thanks!
4232
4233Thoughts about CBT?
4234
4235Thanks for the share - did you take his advice? I would offer that what helps people survive extreme situations might be different than what is helpful other places in life. It's worth considering that the beliefs which help people survive slavery, the holocaust (Viktor Frankel) and other extreme events might be a defense, instead of an answer.
4236
4237Betrayal
4238
4239Ha!
4240
4241Fascist = I don't like you, and nothing more.
4242
4243Thanks for this excellent bit of knowledge. It's new to me and I'm eager to dig in.
4244
4245Thoughts about CBT?
4246
4247Cheers, it's all good. CBT is very appealing for a number of reasons. For one, it can be proceduralized. The article points out a few more. Let me know what you think once you considered it. And I understand, it is long - so I have some obligation to summarize/highlight if you have questions.
4248
4249I do think there are applications for CBT, especially for short term interventions. But for people working on making big explorations into their personality I think it's a bad bet. For those who can't do analysis (5 days a week), I think something in the broad humanist or "client centered therapy" is probably a good bet for once a week long term therapy.
4250
4251Betrayal
4252
4253I miss the classical age.
4254
4255Thoughts about CBT?
4256
4257How would you apply your example to the therapeutic process?
4258
4259What you say on the surface is pretty unobjectionable, but the fact that the default assumption is that what should be important to one in life is to be successful and fit in is clearly part of the problem. It's addressed at greater length in the article.
4260
4261Thoughts about CBT?
4262
4263The author contends (part 3? maybe) that an "empathic" practitioner not running by the book is more at risk of being coercive, given that what they are doing is less obviously confrontational - like being love bombed. I'm prone to agree.
4264
4265Thoughts about CBT?
4266
4267Do you mean us of CBT texts, or do you mean a practitioner would have to incorporate a sort of "close reading" to apply CBT methods - or something else?
4268
4269Thoughts about CBT?
4270
4271Yep, the idea explored in the article later is that the CBT practitioner functions as a "stand-in" for your superego,which unfortunately they don't acknowledge exists - and thus is part of the problem.
4272
4273Thoughts about CBT?
4274
4275I take it back - this was my favorite quote:
4276
4277it is not for nothing that one of the few philosophers the CBT have read is Epictetus, their poster-boy, who was, after all, a slave.
4278
4279Thoughts about CBT?
4280
4281Hate it. I think it is a great tragedy in our understanding and treatment of the human mind and considered it subtly concealed coercion.
4282
4283The fact you raised this concern to the therapist is excellent, and bodes very well for the ultimate success or your therapeutic journey (vs hiding or stifling these sorts of experiences).
4284
4285To understand this you have to understand that a "question" as a linguistic speech act is a directive. Anyone should be annoyed by being around someone who is just waiting for them to say something irrational.
4286
4287Unless it is the only modality your insurance will support, I'd suggest you look elsewhere.
4288
4289The best, and very long, criticism I have found is here: https://melbournelacanian.wordpress.com/2014/02/03/a-critique-of-cbt-as-ideology-part-1/
4290
4291It's part of a five part series on the history, conceptual, and methodological flaws of CBT. Part two is my favorite, and this is my favorite issue:
4292
4293One obviously shoddy assumption is the notion that CBT is an intervention into ?cognition?. It manifestly is not, but rather, is an intervention into language, into discourse. A psychologist has no more seen or handled a patient?s ?cognition? than performed an exorcism of a demon. CBT is a regimen of language coaching ? the distorted thinker must take his or her narrative, his subjective understanding of events, with all of its associations, slips, digressions, and fantastical elements, and reduce this into a series of refutable propositions. Indeed, patients are coached through ?homework? to express themselves in this way, to perform this act of subjective self-mutilation at the level of discourse. Banter, daydreams and the like ? these are irrelevant to CBT. Yet if one accepts that one is dealing with language, and not with ?cognition?, then it follows that the patient?s utterances are not mere statements of fact, refutable or otherwise, but an attempt at intersubjective dialogue. Language is always an exchange, and the act of exchange (much like gift-giving in Levi-Strauss) can be far more important than the specific thing exchanged. Moreover, whatever is being exchanged may have psychic resonances and implications far beyond the obvious. Nevertheless, CBT methodically ignores this complexity, choosing instead to first reduce the patient?s speech, then to brutally interpret along normative lines. It?s worth remembering here that, even for those most trained in thinking ? say, philosophers and logicians, for instance ? there is considerable dispute about what constitutes ?good? thinking (and good living, for that matter). In CBT, such considerations are excluded ? the clinician is an expert in thinking (which is to say, a coach of a certain kind of speaking) even though he or she may never have read or understood a word of philosophy. It is akin to morbidly obese smokers taking over the dietetics and personal training industries. It may sound far-fetched to outsiders, but in psychology, this is standard practice.
4294
4295Now, as to the last part - most therapists will not give you advice, certainly early in therapy, unless it's an obvious issue or one of great risk/legality.
4296
4297On the plus side, i do recommend the book "feeling good" by David Burns to friends who are experiencing hard times and can't/won't go into therapy and whom I don't personally want to tussle with over their deeper emotions.
4298
4299Betrayal
4300
4301Ideally you'd be able to work through the damage this betrayal did to your relationship in an honest way - including not only loss of trust, but if this produced personal humiliation.
4302
4303If this is not possible, such as an extreme betrayal where repair of the relationship is not desired then dealing with loss is appropriate. This would involve talking to another close friend or therapist about the experience and how it made the betrayed feel. Anger, grief, loss of trust, any impact on thoughts about other relationships ("I guess I'll never trust anyone again").
4304
4305Hope it helps.
4306
4307Fascist = I don't like you, and nothing more.
4308
4309Thank you! This is an excellent and well thought out source. Eco is definitely the finest thinker in this vein of analysis on this subject. However, most of the qualities he notes are personal emotional qualities rather than political positions.
4310
4311That being said - I'd still stand by my general point that typically the term is used as an insult, not a description and furthermore that Eco misses the biggest defining factor.
4312
4313It seems clear to me that fascism's most important quality is that it is inherently statist.
4314
4315It would be fun to compose a list describing which qualities fit with each main current ideology, which are shared, and which don't apply. It's like fascism bingo!
4316
4317Furthermore, I think it behooves people who care to use the term fascist objectively to consult the key points of the fascist manifesto, considering what these seem to resemble:
4318
4319The Manifesto of the Fascist Struggle, published in The People of Italy on June 6, 1919.
4320
4321Italians! Here is the program of a genuinely Italian movement. It is revolutionary because it is anti-dogmatic, strongly innovative and against prejudice.
4322
4323For the political problem: We demand:
4324
4325a) Universal suffrage polled on a regional basis, with proportional representation and voting and electoral office eligibility for women.
4326
4327b) A minimum age for the voting electorate of 18 years; that for the office holders at 25 years.
4328
4329c) The abolition of the Senate.
4330
4331d) The convocation of a National Assembly for a three-years duration, for which its primary responsibility will be to form a constitution of the State.
4332
4333e) The formation of a National Council of experts for labor, for industy, for transportation, for the public health, for communications, etc. Selections to be made from the collective professionals or of tradesmen with legislative powers, and elected directly to a General Commission with ministerial powers.
4334
4335For the social problems: We demand:
4336
4337a) The quick enactment of a law of the State that sanctions an eight-hour workday for all workers.
4338
4339b) A minimum wage.
4340
4341c) The participation of workers? representatives in the functions of industry commissions.
4342
4343d) To show the same confidence in the labor unions (that prove to be technically and morally worthy) as is given to industry executives or public servants.
4344
4345e) The rapid and complete systemization of the railways and of all the transport industries.
4346
4347f) A necessary modification of the insurance laws to invalidate the minimum retirement age; we propose to lower it from 65 to 55 years of age.
4348
4349For the military problem: We demand:
4350
4351a) The institution of a national militia with a short period of service for training and exclusively defensive responsibilities.
4352
4353b) The nationalization of all the arms and explosives factories.
4354
4355c) A national policy intended to peacefully further the Italian national culture in the world.
4356
4357For the financial problem: We demand:
4358
4359a) A strong progressive tax on capital that will truly expropriate a portion of all wealth.
4360
4361b) The seizure of all the possessions of the religious congregations and the abolition of all the bishoprics, which constitute an enormous liability on the Nation and on the privileges of the poor.
4362
4363c) The revision of all military contracts and the seizure of 85 percent of the profits therein.
4364
4365Fascist = I don't like you, and nothing more.
4366
4367I think one way to clear this up is to ask oneself the question: "What emotion is the speaker conveying when they say fascism? Do they look genuinely afraid, or is it clear they are expressing contempt, or something else?"
4368
4369Fascist = I don't like you, and nothing more.
4370
4371Characterizations such as right-wing and authoritarian are equally problematic. What about centrist, populist, or liberty-based? I doubt anyone using the characterization "strongman" actually means it as a compliment, as something desirable.
4372
4373I general, my reason for this post is to point out that people are not interested in understanding reality, they are interested in characterizing it to advertise their ego. and that this is not unique to our times.
4374
4375Fascist = I don't like you, and nothing more.
4376
4377I think here we'd be back to Apfelbaum's problem with understanding - in that it threatens most people's ability to maintain their own perspective to actually understand others.
4378
4379Fascist = I don't like you, and nothing more.
4380
4381I'll take it!
4382
4383Fascist = I don't like you, and nothing more.
4384
4385I hear you, but I wonder if that isn't just what your opposition always looks like if you refuse to understand them? As in - they only have to use force if I intend to resist them. And of course, whether things look incoherent or not may be about things, or it may be about my unwillingness to understand.
4386
4387Fascist = I don't like you, and nothing more.
4388
4389It was as true in 1944 as it is now. Mostly people are being rhetorical and think they are being rational - whatever that means. It seems to me rationality is a language game when applied to human action. What do you think?
4390
4391Therapy Experience Associated with Negative Changes in Personality
4392
4393The "negative therapeutic effect" mentioned in old school analysis is best understood as the guilt/shame produced by the method of therapy to certain clients.
4394
4395Certainly CBT can be experienced as confrontational as well. In the short run it may just damage peoples defenses.
4396
4397I think short term therapy is only good for criticial interventions. Otherwise therapy should proceed as developing a relationship, with all the difficulty that entails, and then exploring the weird things that come up as a result.
4398
4399Do you all think Guy Debord was a black pill nihilist?
4400
4401Well put!
4402
4403Nonviolent communication
4404
4405Ok, that makes sense. I take laps with people on this because I use a more narrow view of thinking vs background mental activities. I often get lost in the language - there are no less than six working theories of what "attention" is, for example.
4406
4407Do you all think Guy Debord was a black pill nihilist?
4408
4409Not that I am aware of. I think Spleen and Nostalgia looks very promising and it is on my reading list.
4410
4411Nonviolent communication
4412
4413Does this mean you consider, for example, my perception of the visual field and auditory stimulus as "thought?" Is thought synonymous with neural activity in this usage?
4414
4415citizen therapists trumpism manifesto
4416
4417Haha - I'm about to buy that URL, write a manifesto, and charge $200 annual membership. L. Ron Hubbard, eat your heart out.
4418
4419citizen therapists trumpism manifesto
4420
4421Good thoughts. It's hard to find a path out of cynicism and disillusionment. Here's hoping we can find something more emotionally satisfying in the post modern world.
4422
4423citizen therapists trumpism manifesto
4424
4425Haha - cheers!
4426
4427citizen therapists trumpism manifesto
4428
4429Yep, in many ways I think people could learn a lot from the Donald in terms of being plain spoken and not worrying overmuch about approval.
4430
4431But I admit this is advice which is easy to misconstrue.
4432
4433Then we're in a trap, after all. Since nobody can ever seem to decide whether we should take responsibility about other peoples feelings or not when we speak.
4434
4435citizen therapists trumpism manifesto
4436
4437It's just jargon for awoken, among people who believe they have shed a delusion or come to some new level of consciousness. If my skepticism is not already clear, let me clarify - i'm skeptical of people who think they have a greater level of emotional clarity than their peers.
4438
4439Becoming "red pilled" or "blue pilled" to me usually looks like people latching on to (1) a new community of relationships, and (2) new defenses of their ego.
4440
4441Then again, I'm brown pilled. Brown is for bourbon.
4442
4443citizen therapists trumpism manifesto
4444
4445Well said! It must always return to a serious and patient presence. Most therapists who are not psychoanalysts don't spend nearly enough time in their own therapy and thus come up with bad ideas like this. I think politics are ultimately about loyalties - people and things we care about. As such they are not amenable to truth.
4446
4447citizen therapists trumpism manifesto
4448
4449I like that line!
4450
4451citizen therapists trumpism manifesto
4452
4453Church! This is no more appropriate than a Make Therapy Great Again website featuring an FAQ called "Help, my shrink is divorced Jew!"
4454
4455citizen therapists trumpism manifesto
4456
4457Especially when getting "woke" is a process of having an important authority figure validate your defenses.
4458
4459citizen therapists trumpism manifesto
4460
4461So many people I don't like organized into one neat and tidy list. I think this is misguided and will make their practice of therapy less valuable to their clients. As such I consider it unprofessional.
4462
4463That aside, why can so many people not understand that many(if not most) of their countrymen disagree with their values? Like, yes, really - without resorting to inventing new motivations and about whole swathes of the population?
4464
4465These things seem new only to those who have actively been ignoring their countrymen for decades. The response? Continue to bypass and actively ignore your countrymen!
4466
4467Any therapist who would commiserate with their clients about politics does not understand the mind and should be driven from the field.
4468
4469Oh lordie! Check out their FAQ:
4470
4471This is a paid site! Suckers!
4472Dissembling on the definition of politics.
4473Misuse the definition of "phobia" in xenophobia, also let slide that minority patients are assumed to have unique mental states based on the color of their skin.
4474If therapists want to help "Heal the nation," whatever the hell that means, they should encourage their clients to believe that "Your opposition does what they do for the exact same reasons you are doing what you do." It wouldn't end the fight, but it would end the whining.
4475
4476Do you all think Guy Debord was a black pill nihilist?
4477
4478Substance use is a classical way to avoid emotional pain - which is mostly about spoiled relationships or the developmental legacy derived from them.
4479
4480Thanks for the timeline correction. My statement should be edited to refer to the general transition of early socialist and communist movements in the classic sense which eventually gave rise to the Frankfurt school and post class based intersectional social justice movements.
4481
4482What if a collapse happened and nobody noticed?
4483
4484I do think we are living in a time of great transformation in a historical cycle (Tainter, Toynbee, Spengler, etc.), but I predict a slow change, much like Kunstler's Long Emergency or John Michael Greer's Long Descent.
4485
4486Thanks for the link.
4487
4488Do you all think Guy Debord was a black pill nihilist?
4489
4490Yes, I do. I feel much the same about Ernest Becker and the Denial of Death.
4491
4492Just because we are destined to die does not mean we aren't also using this information to stoke unconscious fantasies which themselves cause or suffering.
4493
4494To DeBord or any Marxist would point out that most people have lived in abject unequal poverty and it has always seemed to have relatively little to do with people living meaningful lives. Most really poor people I've met are much happier than Marxists - and most of their observations seem to me that whether true or not are being used to defensively maintain a hostile posture toward others.
4495
4496You often see the same with obsessions about theory. I think it was Gedo who pointed this out about psychoanalysis (a depressive schezoid obsession) which justifies intellectualism and emotional distance. The same is true of an obsession with narcissists "Oh yes, I'm defensive and withdrawn because of how narcissistic everyone is!"
4497
4498Some evidence for this would be DeBord's intense drinking - which is the classic substitute for bad relationships. I think much of what developed in the Paris left should be interpreted as dissilusionment after the failure of the student revolts, and people getting very weird with new criticial theories which amount to destroying/undermining/twisting culture. Call it intellectual spite.
4499
4500Nonviolent communication
4501
4502Probably what you could call differentiation/discrimination/identification which is attending to something which becomes a foreground against a background. If you mean thought more specifically as in verbal mentalization I'd have to change my answer. I have trouble distinguishing "thinking" clearly from other mental processes. For instance, I think the mimetic primary process is more fundamental, but preverbal. This involves impersonating the emotive tone of other people and making inner representations (symbols and accompanying body patterns of the tonus of the nervous system).
4503
4504Nonviolent communication
4505
4506That definitely helped, thanks. I think we have some different models of what "thought's" are. I would say the wellspring of language generation is motivated imitation and I don't think that thoughts ordinarily have structural causes.
4507
4508I think transactionalism or complex adaptive systems are much better ways to understand emergent phenomena.
4509
4510I'm new. I need some explanations.
4511
4512I didn't quite follow your example. It's a little more like if your dad is proud of you at first you only experience this in his presence, then you learn to "remember" that your dad is proud of you, then you have some ability to be proud of yourself - which is based nevertheless on your relationship with your father, given that part of yourself is based on your representation (memory) of your father.
4513
4514In your question you may be going deeper than you have to. Ordinarily you can identify what is going on pretty easily if someone is experiencing an emotional affect, of which they are only a few. However, projections usually are about motivations - stories of why people are doing certain things. But the meaning of emotions is very socialized. For instance it may be obvious that someone is crying - it might not be obvious that they feel physical pain vs sadness or remorse or something else.
4515
4516A great read on ego, worship, and overall subjective nature. I'm especially interested in any counterarguments to his claims.
4517
4518I think integrating all parts of your personality will lead to living the fullest life. Integrating requires learning how to express which is thwarted by suppression. So yes, while I understand that in general there are situational reasons to suppress emotions there is a much bigger reason not to censor yourself or others.
4519
4520A great read on ego, worship, and overall subjective nature. I'm especially interested in any counterarguments to his claims.
4521
4522The biggest problem I have with the notion of "choosing how you see situations" is that the vast majority of people cannot distinguish this from suppressing/avoiding parts of their personality.
4523
4524This becomes clear if you consider that someone who is enjoying themselves in life would never go to work on their psyche to begin with.
4525
4526You can't really choose to relax or freely choose to express anger unless you already have the option of enjoying being angry. Everything less than that is just a fancy way of suppressing a part of yourself.
4527
4528All that being said, an excellent read.
4529
4530I'm new. I need some explanations.
4531
4532Sure, so Swazye the organism qua physical object really does exist. I also represent Swazye's ego within my own mind - even when Swazye is absent. This representation of mine is what would be called an object of my ego.
4533
4534The objects of ones ego form parts of one's psyche. It's therefore literally true that we base parts of ourselves on others, and I like to rhetorically say that the self is made up of other people. In that ultimately, a small part of who I experience myself to be is based on Swaayze.
4535
4536More literally, this is based on my representation of Swaayze. Generally, when people get into trouble it would look like me distorting to myself my representation of Swaayze. When people go into deep therapy they begin to explore why they are doing this on purpose. One common answer is that there is something about me I'd like to hide from myself, and a clever way to do it is to make it about Swaayze.
4537
4538Nonviolent communication
4539
4540What I am about to write might sound pretty wacky but the topic is very difficult to describe. The concept of religious redemption, which you seem to be excluding as a non-starter, is the acknowledgment of a kind of radical psychological responsibility. Every experience we have is shaped by previous experiences in a never ending chain that is implied by the principle of sufficient reason. One way of thinking about free-association and its benefits is to consider the development of the capacity to move freely through remembered associative chains and their logically determined structure without fallaciously resorting to blaming them on an external cause. If you can develop the capacity to feel that subjectivity is causally walled of from everything and everyone then you can learn to recognize the cause of specific experiences as the symbolic structure of memory and meaning.
4541
4542Could you try stating this another way? Sorry to say I couldn't follow.
4543
4544Nonviolent communication
4545
4546"Sadly, the Christian ethic of individualism which did so much has brought with it an obsessive guilty self focus - a tendancy to think that because one is responsible for some problems one is responsible for all problems, with an accompanying disinclination to accept that there are some problems we are not going to try to solve." I agree that the Christian worldview entails radical responsibility. But that responsibility for our thoughts and experiences is different from political responsibility for the activity of the world which we only experience through symbolically mediated concepts.
4547
4548Here I am referring primarily to the evangelical spirit. It is a very different thread than individualism brought on by the protestant reformation.
4549
4550Here is a question: If someone could not projectively identify what would the see as the source of a thought?
4551
4552I'm not sure I follow. I think human thought is inherently mimetic, to the extent that consciousness is sort of a relationship to other people.
4553
4554I'm new. I need some explanations.
4555
4556It seems to me that people have always made more promises than they really were going to keep. The scheizy thing was deciding to keep track.
4557
4558I'm a bit of an outsider in economics in that I view energy as the basic unit of economic importance.
4559
4560I'm new. I need some explanations.
4561
4562Yes, he is seeking recognition based on the desire to be heard/seen/noticed saying "good morning." That doesn't mean it is all/only seeking recognition. He may be trying to ease subconscious anxiety or any manner of things.
4563
4564The desire to "brighten someones day" includes at least the component of wanting to validate ones own sense of goodness.
4565
4566I think one's conscious sense of self ultimately is derived from other people so, no, I believe the other always comes before the self consciously. But that is a very long story and it requires distinguishing the "self" or ego from the "organism."
4567
4568I'm new. I need some explanations.
4569
4570Yes, everything you say on the internet is designed, more technically, to stroke your ego, even in anonymity. One way to interpret this is that there are kinds of attention we don't want everybody to know about. And no, recognition doesn't require intimate knowledge of a persons total personality, just a momentary stimulus/response into the human environment were something you say or do provides feedback to oneself - for better or worse.
4571
4572I'm new. I need some explanations.
4573
4574Doesn't all this assume one merely seems condescending, as opposed to the probability that one actually does feel dismissive? In which case the truth is that one really is condescending, and is trying to hide this fact so as to be more persuasive or avoid conflict.
4575
4576If one is actually fascinated, impressed or titillated by what someone else is saying I doubt they run the risk of appearing condescending.
4577
4578I'm new. I need some explanations.
4579
4580Welcome! If you can accept that everything you say in public is about receiving some kind of recognition or attention, I recommend imagining what kind of attention you anticipate or want when trying to work through these kind of issues.
4581
4582Beyond that, I think it's important to consider whether one actually does feel dismissive/condescending when one appears dismissive/condescending.
4583
4584Nonviolent communication
4585
4586The problem I was referring to is the inverse. This is unfortunately the successful not being able to shame the underclass into performing better. As in "don't get pregnant, finish high school and get a job!" This is so because part of the payoff of being the underclass is punishing your betters with your resentment, foot dragging, etc.
4587
4588About the best you can do is treat people like an equal - which often means refusing to accept their victim status - letting them know not so subtly that you believe they can do better. That's a very hard thing to do - have faith in people - without merely criticizing or yelling at them.
4589
4590Unfortunately people wrapped up in shame and projection will interpret neutral behavior as shame provoking - which is why large numbers of people have to use the same intervention, for instance in changing a family system.
4591
4592Nonviolent communication
4593
4594Well I think you have some valid criticisms here and you're right I haven't considered it as fully as I could. But I've also made some substantive criticisms about the underpinning of the NVC philosophy, and notwithstanding these I'm not really that motivated to look further - so thus the dismissiveness - not reflecting on you or your comments.
4595
4596In regards to your specific claim about me not watching it - I've provided quotes from the video, the NVC wiki, and some other online errata about NVC, so no I'm not shooting from the hip here.
4597
4598If I have to summarize my good/bad for NVC: I think learning to talk about ones needs in this kind of way is a very good thing. However, my belief about the human psyche makes this inherently problematic depending on ones level of unconscious guilt/shame. Furthermore, I believe NVC discounts psychological reality with the ideology that underlying human action is a fundamental base of compassion.
4599
4600These kind of discussions ultimately start sounding whether you think people are fundamentally good or evil, but that is not what I am saying. I think it is much more complicated, and I think that people who focus too much on spoken language content ignore the more important role of the unconscious and confuses what is meant by needs vs motivations.
4601
4602Finally, given your strong vote of confidence I promise to reconsider NVC at greater length in the future. Perhaps we can talk about it again some day. But for now I'd be speaking out of my ass to go into greater detail so let's leave it aside for now.
4603
4604La La Land?s inevitable Oscars win is a disaster for Hollywood ? and for us
4605
4606Now I'm excited to see it - thanks!
4607
4608Nonviolent communication
4609
4610The short answer to your question is that I think it is phenomenological and learned unconsciously based on the pattern with which others treat you - namely as a subject at least some of the time, rather than an object in the psychoanalytic sense. Since we all have the tendency to objectify others, individualism has to exist in a culture because it requires more than one person to happen. I would say it requires a plurality. But the original roots of individualism seem to me to be Christianity and the notion of a personal relationship to God, not only a class-based orientation.
4611
4612In my historical understanding there is a certain kind of self-consciousness which seems to have started with Petrarch and his peers(http://www.arcaneknowledge.org/histschol/renaissance.htm). This represented the early humanists turning backward toward Rome to emulate the classics in contrast to the monks. Monks were as likely to use Latinate literature to forecast the weather by flipping it randomly open than they were to understand it and see it as relevant to their daily lives.
4613
4614In the 1500's at the end of the protestant reformation, this modern self took on a greater role. By the 16th century the German solution was that each state/village could choose to be protestant or Catholic - and dissenters could self export. (you could even look at the neurotic suffering of Luther as a man who relied on a transcendental "personal relationship with God" to justify/entitle him to oppose and stand apart from his class. This is the ecstasy of heretics.)
4615
4616This notion of oneself as most importantly more than a member of a class seems to be a theme of western civilization that traces back directly to this time, a tension best expressed by the 18th century in the American and French revolutions - which also illustrate the need to balance the role of the individual. This is also directly related to the Christian concept of sin which creates an inward focus (as opposed to previous motivators, such as performative sacrifice or destroying opposing factions, and ritual purity).
4617
4618Ironically, in post modernism, the victimary is regressing to seeing oneself as primarily a member of a class in terms of race, gender, etc. This represents to me, the swirling 'round the drain of Western Civilization - and hides the problem that being an individual is hard, and works out better for some than others, and gives little satisfaction to resentment, the historical succor of the underclass. It's a hard thing to do, but essentially towing this line of the left in my assessment is embracing a projective identification which does not help anybody.
4619
4620As a tangent of probable incendiary nature: Unfortunately, we don't help by treating members of victimary descriptive qualities as primarily members of the same group. This includes acknowledging that they are entitled to special group status. Sadly, the Christian ethic of individualism which did so much has brought with it an obsessive guilty self focus - a tendancy to think that because one is responsible for some problems one is responsible for all problems, with an accompanying disinclination to accept that there are some problems we are not going to try to solve.
4621
4622Christianity is not well suited to being the majority, as the decline into decadence of the Holy Roman Empire I hope makes clear. Unfortunately I predict a similar conclusion.
4623
4624La La Land?s inevitable Oscars win is a disaster for Hollywood ? and for us
4625
4626Thanks for that clarification - I didn't get that from the promos. Makes me more interested in seeing it - plus, look at the costumes!
4627
4628La La Land?s inevitable Oscars win is a disaster for Hollywood ? and for us
4629
4630It's true that people also grow and need to shed a relationship, in essence the not too comfortable sense of outgrowing relationships. But usually when this works out well someone has a realization that they had been behaving immaturely or unhealthily as in they realize they were enmeshed and learn to be more independent. This usually creates a sense of sympathy with the person being left.
4631
4632The Narcissism of Fishes
4633
4634So true! If you can't see your own, you can't see others and so you when you think you see others - chances are you're looking at your own.
4635
4636Nonviolent communication
4637
4638I'm not quite sure, it's a current area of study. What I do know is that Girard traced the role of scapegoating in pre-Christian societies (Violence and the Scapegoat) and that tribalism tends to scapegoat other tribes in the same way a tribe scapegoats individuals.
4639
4640I don't know anyway out of this. Girard thought it was the transcendental, which is part of why he thinks the greatest books have shitty endings - like inexplicable deathbed conversions.
4641
4642Individualism as a transcendental experience is fraught with difficulties because I think it is actually relatively rare and difficult for someone to become a mature, interdependent individual.
4643
4644Nonviolent communication
4645
4646but you can want for humanity, you can want to make the world more beautiful, you can act in a way that feels virtuous in the knowlege that the net effect of virtuous action will be in the direction of getting everyone everything.
4647
4648I don't think you can want something concrete for humanity without ignoring a significant amount of reality - such as the fact that most of humanity does not have the same interests as you, or as each other. It's hard for me to imagine even wanting something like "for everyone to achieve their interests" because their interests are in opposition. It seems to amount to a desire to change what most other people want into something that looks like what I want, and NVC does that by assuming it knows what people really want underneath their difficult behavior.
4649
4650Nonviolent communication
4651
4652"i want this for everyone" and then finally "i want everything for everyone".
4653
4654We definitely part ways here. I don't believe you can want something for someone with whom you do not have a relationship. I don't think the words used in the sentence refer to reality, I think they disguise it. It's very hard to talk about this issue without getting personal. I think that "wanting something for someone else" is hogwash, and is a way of validating ones sense of goodness. Then again this obviously points fingers at me that I may be trying to validate my toughness, tenacity or seriousness or braininess.
4655
4656La La Land?s inevitable Oscars win is a disaster for Hollywood ? and for us
4657
4658I haven't seen it but I think the dynamic is:
4659
4660Movies play to people's desire for something in life, besides relationships, to provide them with satisfaction. The reason they want this is that their relationships suck. People resist these realizations because of the hopelessness which may result from realizing that making relationships better is very difficult for those who have bad ones. More difficult, it seems, than achieving your wildest dreams of success.
4661
4662Nonviolent communication
4663
4664Yep! Hardest thing in the world to shame someone up the food chain.
4665
4666Nonviolent communication
4667
4668Those are actual quotes, and or references to the wiki. I also have a friend who is very into his work, upon which I base much of my ire - but yes all that being said I am being dismissive of his oeuvre.
4669
4670I don't think religion is a bad thing, in the words of Princess Bride I just don't think it's what I think they think it is.
4671
4672Calling something a "need" vs a "motivation" is a clever bit of rhetoric used by humanists to imply that you are entitled, and can feel more secure, about your motivations. I rejoinder that I've seen no reason - other than guilt/shame/fear, that one is less entitled to "negative" emotions, unless we get our entitlement from other people - which isn't saying much.
4673
4674At the end of the day I think Nonviolent Communication is an excellent way to lead ones personal relationships, but it is extremely complicated by unconscious shame and guilt which ordinarily prevent people from identifying how they actually feel.
4675
4676Nonviolent communication
4677
4678It's a good question but I'd rejoinder with what makes you think there is a solution? I'm not at all convinced.
4679
4680People create huge problems for their community when they start behaving as if everyone can share the same interests.
4681
4682Stefan and Dr. Peterson covered this ground a little bit in their recent discussion on youtube. Pretty interesting how Peterson seems to resolve the tension of the two possibilities you imagine. Can't find the time signature at the moment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcEJr8h_yGM
4683
4684Because you're right - if people have to get tribal to have a meaningful life, and tribalism leads to conflict, is there any hope? I think many in western civ have lost hope, and essentially are surrendering/betraying their tribe so as to avoid conflict - a point I've made here before about post WWII unconscious fear of violence.
4685
4686Personally I recommend tribalism, and think the tribe which organizes around the idea of the individual is the best we can do.
4687
4688I would also add that most people who are opposed to "tribalism" have no idea how "tribal" they are acting. This includes spiritual/pop-psych gurus who are leading communities of people into a tribal atmosphere around a belief system.
4689
4690Nonviolent communication
4691
4692I interpret Marshall Rosenberg as a religious belief system. Nonviolent Communication assumes that people only resort to violence if they don't see more effective ways to meet needs.
4693
4694I interpret needs as the object of motivations. One thing which obviously motivates people is a sense of social hierarchy.
4695
4696His work is extremely important for personal relationships but I maintain is worse than useless - as in dangerous and naive - when applied to the world, unless it serves as a personal system of morality.
4697
4698Good guy, well worth considering - just realize when you've crossed into the territory of religion - as in you have some system you think can change the world and bring about peace and harmony.
4699
4700"It's a violent act to imply that others make you feel the way you do." says Marshall. I maintain that the belief that nobody can make you feel bad is one of the dumbest things to ever come out of the psychological community. And if you want to prove them wrong, just tell them That is the dumbest thing to ever come out of a persons mouth and you'll see the truth very clearly, they will feel ashamed or defensive depending on their ego strength.
4701
4702https://web.archive.org/web/20160408013327/http://bapfelbaumphd.com/No_One_Can.html
4703
4704https://egoanalysisessays.wordpress.com/2016/09/02/on-entitlement-to-feelings/
4705
4706"The Paradox of Child Happiness" Religion is a Confidence Trick update: Sunday, February 5, 2017... No, 2017 is not a typo.
4707
4708As Apfelbaum pointed out in his review of Alice Miller, how parents treat children (and how religion influences people) is a microcosm of how we generally treat each other all the time. My objection to the OP, much like Alice Miller, or anyone who thinks family/religion or whatever is the problem is the fact that these institutions don't create anything new in this regard. There is nothing to undo - this is how people can be. But they can also be another way, as can families, as can churches (as groups of people, not metaphysical institutions).
4709
4710Psychotherapy with a Narcissistic Patient Using Kohut's Self Psychology Mode
4711
4712Yep, absolutely. Real world problems (outside of TLP's forensic population) are much more like this guy. He could be any buddy you know - rough around the edges, a little bit of a dick, and totally unable to solve major relationship problems in order to live a minimally satisfying life.
4713
4714Empathy for the Devil
4715
4716You betcha! Bernard Apfelbaum has a great essay on "Entitlement to Feelings" to which I owe this line of thinking.
4717
4718Narcissism and WW3
4719
4720You're welcome - thanks for saying that. All I care to share is that I'm a business owner - but in the past I did have a gig in the broader sector of "coaching." Beyond that I've had a lifelong interest in psychology, and my own experiences in talk therapy.
4721
4722Psychotherapy with a Narcissistic Patient Using Kohut's Self Psychology Mode
4723
4724This is an excellent article. It's a perfect case study for understanding the life and challenges of pretty everyday narcissism. Thank you for sharing.
4725
4726The tension between self development and social justice.
4727
4728No harm done here, we're good!
4729
4730I do read the chronicles and have made it through a good chunk of the archive. I bought his book on the origins of language but sadly it has languished on my shelf. It seems like a challenging read.
4731
4732Narcissism and WW3
4733
4734I hear you - consider Alfred Adler on the masculine protest for some interesting shit.
4735
4736However, firstness and reciprocity are objective anhtropologically. You can find them even within homogeneous gender groups and organizations. But yes, in cultures in general the issues to get wrapped up in gender wars. As you say -"get mapped to." Very good way of phrasing it. I'll have to remember that - credit you!
4737
4738Narcissism and WW3
4739
4740Not necessarily. There are many things which cause lack of empathy - autism, drug usage, etc.
4741
4742These days I reserve "narcissism" to specifically refer to the process of manipulating other people into validating a false view of oneself in order to avoid more painful realizations.
4743
4744Acting without empathy is merely (a) taking action without consideration of other peoples feeling (ordinary insensitivity), or (b) acting with a mistaken belief about other people's motivations (ordinary misunderstandings).
4745
4746You may be referring to the more serious problem of unconsciously distorting other peoples motivations so as to justify ones own otherwise unethical behavior. This persistent habit is definitely more traditionally narcissistic.
4747
4748Narcissism and WW3
4749
4750Here's an illustration that makes it easier to understand:
4751
4752Picture the caveman who invented the spear. By giving this invention to his people he helps everyone. As a result he is lauded as a sort of hero. Firstness is the feeling that he deserves his social position because of the wonderful thing he did.
4753
4754Reciprocity would say - yes, come on now. The spear thing was great, we threw him that party after all and we tell all our sons about it. But that doesn't mean he gets the best cut of meat forever, or that his children get to be god-kings over us. After all, John invented that pot, and look here while you assholes were out hunting I made this wheel things.
4755
4756Firstness is about idealization and emulation. Reciprocity is about community and solidarity. Both are important for a vibrant (growing) and secure (avoiding catastrophe) society.
4757
4758Empathy for the Devil
4759
4760In ego analysis sympathy is more about validating/accepting someone's perspective vs understanding it.
4761
4762People fear that if they understand they will loose their own sense of validation like the right to judge an evil doer. As a result they defend against understanding to hide their insecurity.
4763
4764Secure people feel very entitled to their perspective - not meaning they have to blabber and convince others about it. Rather they can hold it lightly, as in it is so secure it takes no effort to maintain. This is why people who are overdoing it are generally hiding insecurity. Trying to convince others in order to convince themselves.
4765
4766The tension between self development and social justice.
4767
4768Looking forward to it! Glad to know others who are considering his work since I have nobody to talk about it with!
4769
4770What is an indication that someone is using another as a prop for their movie?
4771
4772Try to focus less on other people and more on yourself. The easiest way to think about this is making the conscious choice to reveal your true feelings. The difficult part is understanding your true feelings, since most people are wrapped up in being defensive based on guilt and shame. So that means being able to talk about guilt and shame.
4773
4774A for instance could look like - "When you come home from work and want to vent about your day I shut down and don't want to listen. I just feel ignored when I can't participate actively in the conversation and I start to get resentful. Then I wind up feeling guilty about and just tuning out even more. Up until now I've blamed you for this, but the truth is I need more of your attention and I want to spend less time passively listening."
4775
4776This is opposed to You talk to much and it's pissing me off.
4777
4778It is relative because in the old school people might say to get to the bottom of your feelings. In ego-analysis the anger vs whatever is more about how you feel about feeling angry. If you like feeling and expressing the anger, then there is a good chance it is good to express it. If it bothers you to express anger, then the authentic thing to say is to talk about the guilt/shame, rather than the anger. The anger, in this situation, is a distraction so that nobody has to see the shame.
4779
4780It doesn't go that way all the time. It depends on what part of the emotional situation the individuals ego vibes with.
4781
4782Empathy for the Devil
4783
4784If I follow you correctly I think the issue is that most people mistake empathy with sympathy rather than understanding (and sharing emotional tone).
4785
4786I think the "best avoided" is that we don't want to connect to people who do somethign we disapprove of. This is how contempt/disgust works.
4787
4788What is an indication that someone is using another as a prop for their movie?
4789
4790You get the strong sense they want you to validate something that is incongruous with reality.
4791
4792e.g. Someone is insistently pushing you to recognize how awesome their life is going, yet you have the eerie sense that they are miserable.
4793
4794The key, however, is your response to this. If you are a secure person, you will realize how insecure they are and take steps to make the relationship more authentic (if you want to). If you are not secure, you will feel like (a) they are a bad person for doing what they are doing, and (b) you are a put-upon victim who has no power to correct the situation.
4795
4796Unless you are dealing with seriously disturbed people (whom you should be able to count on one hand among the worst people you've met in life) there is always a great deal we can do to make relationships better. if we want to.
4797
4798The tension between self development and social justice.
4799
4800Eric Gans contrasts two basic human morals: Firstness and reciprocity. You are distinguishing them here perfectly. Unfortunately they are always in tension.
4801
4802Firstness says - The strong and successful are good and deserve positive attention as role models for everybody else. Reciprocity says - Everyone is essentially equal and should be treated fairly.
4803
4804I hope it's clear prima facie that both of these things are true and also can't be perfectly resolved, but only balanced in a somewhat arbitrary manner.
4805
4806Interesting Peter Thiele is a huge Rene Girard fan, who he credits with his investment decisions. Girard is also the inspiration for Gans anhropology. Small world!
4807
4808http://www.businessinsider.com/peter-thiel-on-rene-girards-influence-2014-11 http://anthropoetics.ucla.edu/
4809
4810Empathy for the Devil
4811
4812Haha - maybe you're right. Haven't had the heart to read Kernberg - life is short and books are long, etc. - but I will definitely follow up on this list!
4813
4814Empathy for the Devil
4815
4816As the theory goes, anxious people have been conditioned by the intermittent response of caregivers (you know, Skinner, rats, buttons - sometimes they get the cheese and sometimes they get nothing). This is different than someone who was more strictly deprived, abandoned or abused. As such it's the most common attachment problem.
4817
4818They often have: (1) Identify strongly with beliefs in true love, (2) Have conscious negative beliefs about themselves not being good enough, etc., which preserve positive views of others (3) Conscious beliefs that there partner or close connections are making them feel insecure as a projection (4)
4819
4820Finally, they often have what looks like a hyperactive social life to hide their need for validation. They are always doing something, never any one thing deeply and never alone but don't really enjoy themselves, and defensively maintain this by being busy, harried, worn out, spread thin.
4821
4822Empathy for the Devil
4823
4824Awesome! You've nailed exactly what I was trying to say. Thanks!
4825
4826Narcissism and WW3
4827
4828My answer on this one is rather long. It traces the anthropology of scapegoating from Rene Girard to Eric Gans (you can check out his blog here http://anthropoetics.ucla.edu/).
4829
4830Gans and I believe that there are two fundamental moral principles: Firstness and reciprocity. Firstness essentially means giving credit where credit is due - that people who provide value deserve recognition. Reciprocity is essentially the idea that people expect fair/equal/just comparable treatment. The problem with society is that these are in irresolvable eternal tension.
4831
4832So yes, to your point these things have been around forever. In Gans view, and mine, we are living in an era where where the see-saw has shifted strongly towards the victimary side, the "reciprocity" side. This leads me to expect, and pine for, a return to a more balanced moral world which gives credit where credit is due and promotes the values of productive members of society.
4833
4834This is all part of a cyclical view of history. I do not think there is an end destination, unless you take my desire to try and stay more centrally balanced between these two forces as a destination.
4835
4836I am aware that center will not hold and that there will be no final solution. Everything I say about this issue could be understood as I think we're out of balance in this case leaning toward isims. My hope is that we can balance out without first going to the extreme, which will create an extreme backlash instead of a gentle sway of the cycle of history.
4837
4838The problem is that people go to extremes on purpose, the irony is that they do it because everyone wants the same thing. Ultimately the victimary is fighting for moral firstness and what they need to do is become more ethical and give positive credit to people who are being more productive. Which unfortunately means embracing the values of their purported persecutors.
4839
4840Narcissism and WW3
4841
4842Yep, good inference! I didn't want to focus on that but you did see what I meant.
4843
4844Empathy for the Devil
4845
4846To the first question: How is more important than why because most extraordinary action is about overcoming something. Why billy stole the cookie is a misdirection - how he stole the cookie is that billy overcame his fear of punishment which tells you more about your relationship with Billy than the idea that billy is greedy and doesn't respect you. The latter is all about you ("why") and not about Billy.
4847
4848On your second question: Yes, inhibition is mostly the superego - which is loosely the representation of other people in your mind, or more precisely the emotional impact of past significant relationships.*
4849
4850Empathy for the Devil
4851
4852You're on the right track. If, let's say, one is constantly subtly trying to impress someone in their life (which usually doesn't work very well anyway). A growthful improvement would be to say *I'm sorry I brag and try to impress people. The truth is I'm insecure. I don't like this about myself and I'm trying to work on it, but the truth is I really appreciate your support. I'm sorry I act superior, because the truth is I feel inadequate and really need your encouragement."
4853
4854It doesn't actually take thousands of reps once someone can really get to the point of telling the truth. Do it with one or two people in your life and it can make a huge change. The beauty about narcissistic issues is that you really can have transformative emotional experiences that make big quick changes. These changes are just desperately defended against. But it can all change very quickly.
4855
4856Empathy for the Devil
4857
4858I've had a few girlfriends who had been "diagnosed" as manic depressive and some who had been "accused" of being borderline. Honestly I don't understand the condition very well and would love to know more if you have some recommendations.
4859
4860Empathy for the Devil
4861
4862Sure thing let me know how deep into theory you want me to go but here's the starters - everyone needs some attention, to be known, to be able to express themselves in a context which accepts them, etc. which you could loosely call "validation." Anxious people need what seems like an excessive amount of this, even to very stable people.
4863
4864Stable, secure, mature or whatever you want to say "healthy" people got enough of these needs met when they were growing up that they are flexible about getting them as an adult. They still need it, but not as desperately, and are relatively able to ask for what they need instead of being pushy.
4865
4866On the other hand, avoidant people have dealt with not getting the attention/validation they needed by suppressing awareness. They often have developed whole parts of their personality around being independent, being strong, not liking needy people, etc. They consciously identify with these attitudes and affirm these values.
4867
4868This is called being "ego-syntonic" in that it rings true to the person about themself. However, they have the hardest time in therapy admitting that a large part of their personality is built around a defense mechanism. They often cannot connect the dots that they are suffering from deep loneliness, a lack of trusting relationships, and a disconnection from their feelings since they consciously think everything I just said is stupid, weak, needy bullshit.
4869
4870Empathy for the Devil
4871
4872Those who, like myself, date BPD's (or simply anxiously attached women in less serious cases) tend to be avoidant themselves. It's hard to empathize because anxious people are suffering from what avoidant people have suppressed in order to overcome.
4873
4874Narcissism and WW3
4875
4876Welcome!
4877
4878Narcissists can't understand other people. The reason this is so has to do with the difference between "narcissistic supply" and ordinary "validation."
4879
4880In "validation" person A shows person B how he is feeling, sees the real effect of this disclosure on another person, and has the beneficial result of feeling more secure, understood, or in touch with himself and reality AND person B as a result of telling the truth.
4881
4882In "narcissistic supply", one puts forth an insincere display designed to get a specific controlled response. This response, if successful, helps person A support an unrealistic connection to reality, and if unsuccessful produces a defensive reaction.
4883
4884Long story short - narcissism prevents understanding (empathizing with) other people, and therefore is part of justifying a variety of actions which can be considered scapegoating.
4885
4886Fascism qua nationalism dehumanized other nations. Marxism qua classism dehumanized whole economic sectors of the population. Narcissims qua (grab bag of victimary intersectional identity groups) dehumanizes large sectors of ordinary people.
4887
4888Incels
4889
4890On a related note I recommend the article called Empathy for the Devil - why it is so challenging to understand evil: http://www.fernieroad.ca/a/PAPERS/empathy%20for%20the%20devil%20-%202011.pdf
4891
4892Don't ask why people did it, ask how in terms of what do people overcome in order to do what they do?
4893
4894The cannibalistic couple
4895
4896You nailed it - sometimes it is hard to determine who is responding to who, and people who are really suffering get it backwards on purpose.
4897
4898There is a guy out there called Lichtenberg who has a psychoanalytic theory called "motivational systems theory." Anyway, the gist of it is that our fundamental emotional affects (those unmistakable body language and physical things that accompany emotions) are a pre-verbal language which is always talking to each other when in company.
4899
4900An intersubjective experience is as simple as:
4901
4902Being moved to forgive someone when you see how they really feel remorse and deeply want your reassurance.
4903Expressing your love for someone, seeing that it touches them, and feeling good about your relationship as a result.
4904Expressing anger at someone who is ignoring you, seeing that this gets their attention (in that they were ignoring you), and seeing that they really sit up and listen.
4905Admiring someone for a quality they have which you want to emulate, seeing that they appreciate the attention, and also seeing that they want you to have the same thing, too - and are not threatened by being idealized.
4906I guess its what you could call a truly satisfying 360 degree emotional experience.
4907
4908The cannibalistic couple
4909
4910I do not think you can be truly self sufficient, no. Hermits are generally crazy, even monks who do long term meditation do so in a social context of relationships.
4911
4912You may consider the possibility that the loss of idealizing your parents and the loss of their validation of your goodness (you say perfection) is a big disappointment that is worth acknowledging.
4913
4914Sometimes you have to remember how much you cared in order to rekindle the belief that you can care again, just as deeply.
4915
4916The cannibalistic couple
4917
4918More exactly I would say it is what your parents represented for you, or the lack there of. What Z learned in therapy was those missing parts of his psyche that were never developed because of his relationship with his mother. In a sense it is what you say - learning his mother was cunt let him realize what he was missing, which he then got from Kohut and other relationships.
4919
4920Realizing isn't all of it - there is still work to be done, but you learn you can do that work in other relationships.
4921
4922The cannibalistic couple
4923
4924I'm not sure I follow you but what I was trying to say is that individualism as an affirmed value (ego syntonic - as in yes, that's me) can prevent people from acknowledging their needs for intersubjective experiences - i.e. very close relationships with other people. Not the other way around. A value like "I prefer to be self sufficient and don't like it when others depend too much on me" can be a barrier for some sectors of the therapeutic population.
4925
4926The cannibalistic couple
4927
4928Me too! I think barriers today are (1) of course still the time and money of long, deep therapy, (2) The modern metaphysically confused notion of the authentic self (which I would call the "secular soul" fallacy). I would say there is an individualism in the zeitgeist which works against people admitting their deep connections to others.
4929
4930Drop the shame and guilt!
4931
4932You're welcome!
4933
4934Drop the shame and guilt!
4935
4936I'd think the analyzed individual probably has less need for "defenses" and more of a clear sense of their own motivation.
4937
4938Freud had a disagreement of sorts with Alfred Adler, a psychiatrist of the early Vienna school regarding the importance of a one person psychology based on guilt vs a more intersubjective psychology based on shame. It has a lot to do with his 1923 introduction of the superego.
4939
4940In Freud guilt was a bit hard to separate from it's main forms: Fear of punishment, damage to or loss of something you care about, etc. Shame on the other hand is primarily about the desire to be loved, accepted and secure.
4941
4942so basically Freud reduced things to more fundamental drives whereas Adler saw things much more in terms of relative comparisons to real other people.
4943
4944I think Freud did great work but also had many famous conflicts. These include Adler, Jung, and others. To me Kohut was the first to launch an impressive new phase of analysis. I do not find CBT and Beck/Ellis to be persuasive criticisms of psychoanalysis.
4945
4946Drop the shame and guilt!
4947
4948The thing about ego-analysis is the relativity of defense. Ordinary psychoanalysis tends to have a "layering" model - as in something inauthentic on the surface is covering up something genuine underneath, etc.
4949
4950Ego analysis doesn't necessaryily abide by that. An example may be:
4951
4952Old school: Therapist asks John about his relationship to his mother. John is dismissive "Yeah, she was pretty bad, but it didn't bother me that much." Therapist concludes that perhaps the defense (dismiss the impact of having a bad mother) is covering an authentic truth (John is actually hurt and suffering about his mother). Or perhaps (John is hiding his anger because he'd feel guilty since he really wants to hurt his mother).
4953Ego analysis: The therapist may conclude that the issue is not necessarily that John has real hurt underneath, but perhaps from the standpoint of John's ego he does not feel entitled to be angry at his mother.
4954It's a way of interpreting closer to the surface - a level which is often missed due to the effort to "go deep."
4955
4956When ego defenses match your environment well, then one is highly likely to identify with the defenses. A perfect example are religious beliefs which serve a function in a culture, so yep you're right.
4957
4958Ego analysis begs the question of whether the idea of "defense" is all that it is cracked up to be. The key difference is viewing shame as the prime mover rather than guilt in Freud's case.
4959
4960Drop the shame and guilt!
4961
4962It's people who can experience more-or-less the full range of their experiences in life without shutting off, shutting out, or shutting down some significant part of their awareness or expression.
4963
4964Yes - people who are well adapted can enjoy the therapeutic effects of good relationships.
4965
4966I'm not sure I understand your last sentence - could you tell me more?
4967
4968The cannibalistic couple
4969
4970Testify!
4971
4972The cannibalistic couple
4973
4974If you're used to psychoanalysis you could try The Restoration of The Self. You might try downloading a PDF of The Two Analyses of Mr. Z to test your understanding first: https://static1.squarespace.com/static/53a32531e4b091cafcdb9985/t/5560b562e4b06c953d5cc71e/1432401250442/Kohut-H.-The-Two-Analyses-of-Mr.-Z-vol.60-1979.pdf
4975
4976For more approachable try the web searches as there are some good summaries out there.
4977
4978Drop the shame and guilt!
4979
4980Easier said than done, my friend. I think to get through it you really have to find a person you care about who doesn't blame you for what you feel guilty for and doesn't look down on you for your shame. On top of that you have to realize that this is what you want from them first - otherwise it will occur to you as if they are trying to make you feel better for their own reasons.
4981
4982And it's not just them saying it. You have to see it in there eyes, hear it in their voice, feel it in their touch when they see you for who you really are. You have to want it first.
4983
4984Nothing else will do.
4985
4986That being said - for most people who will never undergo long term depth therapy - it is better to strengthen a defense than tear one down. Which is what self help and happy hour are for.
4987
4988Which reminds me, it's scotch o'clock.
4989
4990Final word - enjoying yourself, as I often say, is about relaxation+excitement. If either of those are absent you are dealing with a *manic defense.*
4991
4992Most peoples suffering either amounts to an inability to get excited (like depression or deactivating defenses) or an inability to relax/abide with their excitement (like inhibitions such as guilt/shame/anxiety).
4993
4994Those who can truly enjoy themselves don't wind up in therapy.
4995
4996The cannibalistic couple
4997
4998Absolutely!
4999
5000The cannibalistic couple
5001
5002Probably Dombek's new book The Selfishness of Others makes this point most poetically. I seem to recall a section about masks being something we put on each other more than ourselves.
5003
5004I think the fundamental question of the insecure in this context is "Who can help me hide?" as opposed to "who can I relax/open up/let down my guard around?"
5005
5006The cannibalistic couple
5007
5008Agreed. My point is mostly about how the lay audience tries to use these concepts at the levels below clinical. What insecure people can't see is that the "insistantly visible self" is weak and insecure - a simulacrum of strength which requires the borderline to uphold the illusion.
5009
5010In bowlby's theory the borderline would probably be a more severe "disorganized" type - which could sort of be all over the place - either anxious or avoidant, changing, and very reactive to others with little consistency.
5011
5012It's been a useful new theory for me recently. I think one of the hardest things a person can have to admit is that they have an dismissive avoidant attachment issue. Often times I think these folks have identified with the defenses very strongly.
5013
5014The cannibalistic couple
5015
5016Bingo! It maintains a stable, but unpleasant, relationship (or object relationship, or whatnot). Depending on the degree of the problem this can go on forever. Usually the anxious one will explode with "protest behavior" (which avoidant people see as narcissistic rage) or the avoidant one will really withdraw (which anxious people see as cold, punitive and abandoning).
5017
5018The cannibalistic couple
5019
5020The everyman's version of narc/borderline is the pairing of anxious/avoidant attachment. They both see the other person as being selfish and uncanny.
5021
5022The cannibalistic couple
5023
5024Everyone does this to some extent. It depends on how, generically, "secure" people are. Secure people go about getting their needs met relatively directly - whether they have many or few. Insecure people either anxiously demand/control attention, or else deny they have needs and desperately try to prove it.
5025
5026One way to think about this is Kohut's "self object" concept. People create and maintain their sense of self through relationships with other people. If this process doesn't complete then people are desperately trying to "get" rather than generously trying to "give" the needed reassurance. It's hard to switch over if you don't really believe people will give freely. If you are in a relationship with an insecure person they probably won't. A secure person can, however, clobber them over the head and help them grow up.
5027
5028It looks like saying things like I need you to pay attention right now. without being critical or shameful. Here is the key - in order to say this without being weird you have to (1) believe you actually deserve what you are asking for, and (2) see that the reason the other person is not paying attention is about their own insecurities and not about you.
5029
5030Otherwise pop-psych BS scripts are just more criticism and manipulation.
5031
5032Personally favorite/personally relevant non fiction work?
5033
5034It presents what to me and many readers is a revolutionary and simple way of understanding human desire. World changing.
5035
5036The Hate that Dare Not Speak its Name
5037
5038While I can't really take your thought experiment seriously (by which I mean I would dismiss anyone who claimed to think that suffering was ideal as having a mental problem and not really accept that he believed what he were saying) I do concede that there are times when compromise is impossible. It's like the "utility monster" in philosophy.
5039
5040Which is why there is war - which I like, and intend to win. However, this does sober me to the fact that compromise is important in that I"m sure there are plenty of others who feel the same way.
5041
5042I don't fault anyone per say for fighting for what they want. The annoying part is the rhetoric of the moral high ground which seeks to deny the reality of conflicting interests. I'm fine with conflicting interests because it yields authentic compromise or an honorable fight.
5043
5044Audi thinks pretty blonde girls with rich supportive dads are oppressed #DriveProgress
5045
5046I hear ya, but I don't think there are as many solutions as most people do. Their are only outcomes - which mean some advantages and some risks. I go nuts when people can't acknowledge risk - the flipside of claiming ones ideas are better for everybody.
5047
5048Audi thinks pretty blonde girls with rich supportive dads are oppressed #DriveProgress
5049
5050It's an insult to the father - in that he is not a "real" man. This is of course metaphorical. More literally I'm saying this is the result of the father having an inferiority complex with respect to women. He thinks he can help a daughter reach her full potential, but not so with a son. One he holds back, the other he boosts - and both are about his own weakness which is why he can't let them be people.
5051
5052I of course am extrapolating the general content of the commercial - but that's the gist of my position on feminist fathers.
5053
5054Audi thinks pretty blonde girls with rich supportive dads are oppressed #DriveProgress
5055
5056Haha. The answer to the rest of your question is that while I share much in common with the alt-right I am more prone to see class conflict, and view identitarian struggles as a distraction.
5057
5058Personally favorite/personally relevant non fiction work?
5059
5060Deceit, Desire and the Novel, by Rene Girard.
5061
5062The Real Message Behind Audi's Super Bowl Ad Isn't Exactly An Uplifting One
5063
5064I think he means in the sense that the daughter is functioning to the father as a self object. His desire is for her to reflect (mirror/validate/prove, etc.) his goodness - which is supported in this case by his vacuous class values. You know this because nothing would piss her dad off more than her dating a man who thought he was a coward. Maybe marrying an enlisted man with a tats who raises his voice to her. Ironically - at least this guy wants her as opposed to wants to be wanted.
5065
5066The Real Message Behind Audi's Super Bowl Ad Isn't Exactly An Uplifting One
5067
5068Loved it! The reason virtue signaling is evil is because it makes values about status, rather than the other way around. The fathers values are anathema to success. You have to work hard because everyone is competing with you, and the exact amount everyone pays everyone else is as little as possible.
5069
5070Audi thinks pretty blonde girls with rich supportive dads are oppressed #DriveProgress
5071
5072Cuck - by which I meant weak.
5073
5074Audi thinks pretty blonde girls with rich supportive dads are oppressed #DriveProgress
5075
5076I think more things have become political in recent years due to the rise of identity politics, fueled by changing demographics and increasing identity insecurity.
5077
5078These issues fade into the background in a homogeneous culture where everyone around you is very similar.
5079
5080Audi thinks pretty blonde girls with rich supportive dads are oppressed #DriveProgress
5081
5082Thanks for the reply!
5083
5084Audi thinks pretty blonde girls with rich supportive dads are oppressed #DriveProgress
5085
5086Big fan of Eric Berne - I'm with you. Definitely "I'm trying to be reasonable" or some version of that is a bait I am vulnerable to. Gotta give up the gimmic of needing to appear reasonable, I suppose. But enough about me - we have other people to blame for our problems so lets get back to that!
5087
5088Audi thinks pretty blonde girls with rich supportive dads are oppressed #DriveProgress
5089
5090Yes!
5091
5092Audi thinks pretty blonde girls with rich supportive dads are oppressed #DriveProgress
5093
5094Can you tell me a little more about that - feel free to PM if we start hijacking the thread. Can you expand on the distinctions you're trying to draw between personal relationships vs public life and the identity of the semiotic terms you use?
5095
5096Trying to learn Lacan - thanks for taking the time.
5097
5098Audi thinks pretty blonde girls with rich supportive dads are oppressed #DriveProgress
5099
5100You bet! Thanks for posting this. It popped up on my youtube today and I was chomping at the bit to talk about it!
5101
5102Audi thinks pretty blonde girls with rich supportive dads are oppressed #DriveProgress
5103
5104That is delightful!
5105
5106Audi thinks pretty blonde girls with rich supportive dads are oppressed #DriveProgress
5107
5108I'll take your suggestion if you do the same. If you want to enjoy a repartee I need you to try and be clearer because I'm having a hard time understanding what you mean. I apologize if I'm interpreting your comments as being more negative and confrontational than you intend them to be - but that is what's going on here on my end so I could use your help to clear this up.
5109
5110What do you mean by "try harder" in this context? It's a weird admonition to give.
5111
5112If it wasn't about the use of the word cuck as you now say, you are essentially repeating an exhortation to dance. Which I'm happy to do if you whistle a tune.
5113
5114Audi thinks pretty blonde girls with rich supportive dads are oppressed #DriveProgress
5115
5116Well - what I mean is that when someone is doing what people like to call "branding" they trying to stimulate validation through an object relationship. I would credit that over-reliance on this to maintain self esteem would be evidence of insecurity.
5117
5118But like in any relationship I have to wonder: To point out insecurity? To attack the tenuous connection? To help hide it? Who would do these things, and why? What is it that people have to say which they can't say on their own when they are "branding"?
5119
5120Audi thinks pretty blonde girls with rich supportive dads are oppressed #DriveProgress
5121
5122The issue of pay itself is a red herring, whether you believe it is true or not. Audi is providing the viewer with the opportunity to validate their sense of goodness by purchasing an Audi, or at least acknowledging that Audi is good for endorsing the values espoused in the commercial - for sharing a value which the viewer ostensibly holds for themselves.
5123
5124The relationship this mirrors is a bid for validation of goodness (virtue signaling), in that fathers want their daughters to validate the fathers goodness, as opposed to being willing to validate their daughters goodness. For example, if the daughter happens to believe men and women aren't the same and that she wants to get married young and have children. This is problematic because fathers should want validation from their wives - who have already left them for a man who doesn't care about gender - or from institutions such as Uncle Sam, the Church, or even their male friends. NOT Audi and NOT his daughter.
5125
5126Audi, however, is not good for doing these things. Obviously nobody thinks women should get less pay for equal work whether you think this actually happens in reality or not. Audi is bad for doing this because it creates false, feckless sense or moral superiority to an enemy who doesn't really exist. Now, excuse me, I'm going to go key an Audi...
5127
5128If your daughter wants a new Audi, which she shouldn't, her father would have to tell her she needs to work really really hard because buying a new Audi is a frivolous waste of money, which most people buy to compensate for something - oh yeah - like a father who thinks you need his help to boost your self esteem, because after all you're just a girl.
5129
5130The Dad doesn't even realize he isn't taking his daughter seriously as a person, which is the problem with the world. At least chauvinists realize they are feeling superior when they feel superior, not like this guy.
5131
5132Audi thinks pretty blonde girls with rich supportive dads are oppressed #DriveProgress
5133
5134I have changed the word to "feckless" which reflects my intended usage and prevents reader misunderstanding.
5135
5136Audi thinks pretty blonde girls with rich supportive dads are oppressed #DriveProgress
5137
5138I have changed the word to "feckless" which reflects my intended usage and prevents reader misunderstanding.
5139
5140Audi thinks pretty blonde girls with rich supportive dads are oppressed #DriveProgress
5141
5142Do you mean as the individual desire to "brand" or the reflexive hyper-vigilant stance of TLP fans to anything that looks like branding? Or something else...
5143
5144Incidentally, my intended usage of the word is as "coward" or "feckless", which while it is jargon definitely predated it's usage in political circles.
5145
5146We will never stamp out "branding" nor should we. Idealizing transference and twinship needs are a central part of everyone's psyche from the cradle to the grave - and people who meet these needs are happier and healthier than those who don't. For people who are sensitive to it I'd ordinarily recommend diving in and enjoying the show.
5147
5148Maybe we should make this a subject of its own post! I think branding only looks strange in the presence of a fractured cultural background. Failure to do it effectively also reflects the anxiety and shame of an insecure existential position within a culture.
5149
5150Audi thinks pretty blonde girls with rich supportive dads are oppressed #DriveProgress
5151
5152Haha - maybe you're right. Then again, maybe objectivity has always been a cheap charade to hide what you care about from the slings and arrows of others.
5153
5154Audi thinks pretty blonde girls with rich supportive dads are oppressed #DriveProgress
5155
5156Hated it. The reason feckless dudes can't help their sons become men but they can help their daughters become men is that despite how much they rightly hate themselves, they still need to think SOMEBODY wants to be like them, even if it's their daughters.
5157
5158You can't help your son compete, but you can help your daughter feel entitled.
5159
5160Exiting the Vampire Castle
5161
5162Group scapegoating with accompanying inferior legal status (defacto or de jure), protected with force or the threat of force, and the key is that the "oppressed" generally have to be innocent of what they are specifically being accused of - though not entirely innocent of other vices, as no group is.
5163
5164Exiting the Vampire Castle
5165
5166Always like his work, thanks for sharing. I think class conflict is closer to reality than vicitmary conflict (racism, sexism, etc.). However, marxism still concealed the problem that primarily class identification is about shame more than oppression. Generally nobody is holding you down as much as you are holding yourself down. No matter how oppressive the society their have always been ways to better yourself - exceptions to every rule. That's why their are "social rules" after all.
5167
5168How many of us have interest in neo reactionary views?
5169
5170Let me know what you find. It seems to me their are two broad moral principles: firstness and reciprocity. Firstness is basically giving credit where credit is due, and reciprocity speaks to fairness, solidarity and equality. Sadly the two are in tension with each other in an ever shifting balance which looks to me to be arbitrary at best or capricious at worse.
5171
5172Proposed entry for the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Sixth Edition (2026): Narciphobia
5173
5174...and Thanks, by the way. If you follow Bowlby and attachment you'll note that the threatened response of anxiously attached people is "protest behavior" which looks to insecure avoidants like "narcissistic rage." The threat behavior of avoidants looks like "withdrawl" which to insecure people attribute "cold, compassionless abandonment."
5175
5176So the key to narcissism is that insecure people cannot see the insecurity of other people, and their behavior looks like selfishness, which helps you hide your insecurity. Secure human beings are more capable of distinguishing insecurity because they have had to experience their own in order to become secure. They are not without needs, they are just well aware of them and can pursue their satisfaction more directly.
5177
5178Proposed entry for the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Sixth Edition (2026): Narciphobia
5179
5180I probably interpreted your use of "suppressing" too narrowly. I meant that because guilt is difficult to hold, therapists often have to push people to being aware of it and focus on it. So tolerating guilt feelings (being able to know you feel guilty about leaving the conversation and doing it anyway) may be more useful for a clinical population than everyday ordinary suppressing, which I took to mean limiting or avoiding awareness of it in order to take action which otherwise may be inhibited by guilt.
5181
5182Proposed entry for the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Sixth Edition (2026): Narciphobia
5183
5184Dombek sites advice given to women who have been "victims of narcissistic abuse" to literally run away at the first sign of other peoples narcissism. Unfortunately, people leaving randomly in the middle of a conversation reflects a great deal of narcissism - which is why I no longer value the concept except in its extreme application to personality disorders.
5185
5186My thought is that avoidant personalities and anxious personalities both see eachothers behavior as selfish and thus narcissistic - which explains why the definition of narcissism is made incoherent by opposing criteria.
5187
5188Your final point is extremely good for anyone who is not a therapist. The ability to tolerate guilt is essential. If people assume that "if I will feel guilty, it means I shouldn't take action" they are likely to deny (suppress, or what have you) the knowledge of their guilt.
5189
5190In the wake of children transitioning as a way for their parents to virtue signal "Couple Reveals Child's Gender Five Years Too Late" is sadly far more relevant now than before (link is to a YouTube video titled Transgender, Autism & Intellectual Authoritarianism)
5191
5192Would "validate their sense of goodness" work? That's how I usually mean the phrase.
5193
5194In the wake of children transitioning as a way for their parents to virtue signal "Couple Reveals Child's Gender Five Years Too Late" is sadly far more relevant now than before (link is to a YouTube video titled Transgender, Autism & Intellectual Authoritarianism)
5195
5196Thanks for saying that!
5197
5198In the wake of children transitioning as a way for their parents to virtue signal "Couple Reveals Child's Gender Five Years Too Late" is sadly far more relevant now than before (link is to a YouTube video titled Transgender, Autism & Intellectual Authoritarianism)
5199
5200We?re having a problem noticing the difference between accepting people (not creating a social underclass or restricting access to the common goods of life) and accepting what people claim about reality. The reason we are having this problem is that people use truth claims to hide their feelings, protecting themselves from blows to their ego.
5201
5202I think what separates those who successfully work through gender and identify issues of all stripes is an ability to understand and express their life in terms of a desire. For trans folks this looks like I want to live my life as a ___. This is much easier for other people in society to deal with, most of whom are reasonably satisfied letting you do you, than arguing with them about reality. None of this "I really am..." or "I've always been..." thing
5203
5204Act the way you want to, don't blame your gender. The only good feminists are turning in their graves every time a gender activist speaks.
5205
5206Gender shame issues are ubiquitous in mental health, and unfortunately those who don't resolve the shame wind up stuck with projective identification (making other people feel the way you do so you don't have to). The narrative of living your life as a victim accomplishes this reversal. So trans people are subjecting the rest of the world, in general, to projective identification. Which is not healthy, because what people experiencing projective identification need to realize is how they actually feel (ashmaed) which let's them correct that fact - for instance, like Blair White has learned, people generally leave you alone or even want to screw you if you don't blame them for all your problems.
5207
5208Given the almost universal struggle with gender issues as part of development I would caution for cool heads to prevail. What seems like a novel solution to the childhood ego does not represent that we have miraculously entered a progressive phase of human history where a previously voiceless portion of the population can finally shake off the shackles of cruel oppression.
5209
5210So to recap: While I do believe it can be an authentic desire to live ones life as the other gender, and that doing so can produce satisfaction, it is an important decision for adults to make for themselves and I consider administering hormone therapy to be a violation of medical ethics. I am aware of, and accept the risks this entails. Beyond this - parents harm their children all the time while trying to do good. This will be no exception - for both those who decide to abstain or proceed. What I do know is that I would resent any tax revenue which goes toward this narrative.
5211
5212I am also very suspicious, in general, as I have noted here and quoted from above: http://theblondbeast.com/psychology/psychoanalysis/the-problem-with-bruce-jenner/
5213
5214The thing that changes your experience of yourself in a positive way is not hormones or surgeries, but changed relationships to other people. In this sense the most important healing experience is the ability to live your life the way you want, which requires other people to cooperate. The easiest way to get that is to show them how much you need it, not convince them of how much you deserve it. You can always find someone to help make you happy if you let them. But to do that you have to give up control.
5215
5216The new paradigm of authentic dishonesty: 'ritualistically nonritualistic'
5217
5218RIP Dr. A - a great point. So much of "mental health" talk jumps right to "solving a problem" instead of dealing first with the pressure we feel to have to solve it. Dr. A identified the problematic meta-feelings (like shame about anxiety - as opposed to ordinary anxiety which simply motivates someone to seek reassurance from those around them for example).
5219
5220With the prevalence of self help and child rearing books it may be fair to say that "psychological thinking" is contaminating the superego.
5221
5222Proposed entry for the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Sixth Edition (2026): Narciphobia
5223
5224No - it's a short book, book length essay I guess you'd call it.
5225
5226How many of us have interest in neo reactionary views?
5227
5228Well maybe we just have a different model of the mind here, but one's superego is the felt sense (to the ego) that someone is watching you, along with the emotional sense of what that means to you - so I don't follow you when you say
5229
5230The superego is watching someone else burn their hand and then avoiding the stove.
5231
5232Your position would only make sense of one who is totally identified with the superego, instead of the ordinary case (with the exception of severe pathology) of being identified with the ego and experiencing the superego as somewhat foreign.
5233
5234It's nice if someone else tells you to avoid the stove, but you don't need a third party in this example.
5235
5236I'm going to make this my last post in this conversation. Thanks for the time.
5237
5238How many of us have interest in neo reactionary views?
5239
5240That's not the way the superego works. The fire is ordinary memory, a function of the ego or preconscious. The superego is an emotional memory of relationship experiences "the precipitate of abandoned object cathexes" which is Freud jargon for "the lasting impact of past relationships.
5241
5242How many of us have interest in neo reactionary views?
5243
5244I confused your response with another user who was responding to the same thread, thus lying, which was his example. I agree with most of what you say here.
5245
5246How many of us have interest in neo reactionary views?
5247
5248There only has to be a general strand over time. As long as it is generally ue that lies lead to worse outcomes its going to be generally true that lying is a bad idea. This can soon become a moral.
5249
5250But these only exist in the minds of individuals so effected. Nothing has "become a moral" unless a moral is just a kind of pattern.
5251
5252The difference is in how the rule is transmitted. i.e. by parents in superego formation.
5253
5254Can you explain your understanding of how this works?
5255
5256It seems like you're saying ordinary behavior is about learning whereas moral behavior is about learning+ the parental superego. What does the superego add other than feeling loved or shamed by an important other?
5257
5258How many of us have interest in neo reactionary views?
5259
5260There need be no imaginary 3rd party. Just a repeated experience of lying = shunning = worse outcomes.
5261
5262Yes but not everybody has the same experiences, so this relegates morals to learned behavior, which is fine by me, but it certainly isn't objective in your description. This is a subjective experience of having something happen. Not lying to avoid punishment is at best practical and doesn't particularly have anything to do with right and wrong. But it would still be based on fear, an emotion. There is no moral rule created here beyond an individual.
5263
5264Yes, that is what i said. A moral can exist without any particualr feeling and be broken without any particular feeling.
5265
5266Then how do you distinguish moral behavior (people punish you if you lie and punishment hurts) from ordinary behavior (fire is hot and it hurts if you touch it)? The former is sociopathic, but possible. Or would you say that "don't touch fire because it is hot" is a moral statement?
5267
5268How many of us have interest in neo reactionary views?
5269
5270Her's an example from another commenter:
5271
5272If John lies to Sally, Sally won't trust John because John lied to her.
5273
5274Introducing "morality" gets us to:
5275
5276If John lies to Sally, Sally won't trust John because John is immoral.
5277
5278If Sally experiences the problem as a loss of trust in John, it is sad. If Sally experiences the problem as John being immoral, meaning that John is bad, she is likely to indulge in feelings of animosity, disgust, shaming, shunning - justifying the same because, after all, John did something bad.
5279
5280The second case is closer to projective identification - trying to make someone feel as bad as you do, than it is to healing a breach of trust or protecting oneself.
5281
5282It's problematic for two reasons: First, if we assume the reason lying to Sally was a problem is that it hurt Sally then really hurting Sally should be the issue. Returning negativity to John at best transfers the hurt back to him - but this time hurting John was justified because, morality.
5283
5284The second big problem is that in the real world generally people like John lie to people like Sally because they already struggle with issues of shame and debasement. I admit this is a secondary issues not likely to be solved by society.
5285
5286Morality in these cases doesn't add anything good to the world, unless you believe in the expressive function of punishment.
5287
5288How many of us have interest in neo reactionary views?
5289
5290Yes, in the sense that objectivity creates an imaginary third party perspective presumably shareable by all or almost all people. Unfortunately it usually denies the reality of the motivations and thinking of the people involved in such actual subjective experiences.
5291
5292If you lie to me I can't trust you and therefore will shun you. This means you stop lying. over time it create a moral.
5293
5294Yes, but you shun because you can't trust me you do not do it because lying is wrong. In more complicated cases the problem I am describing is when people justify their subjective experience (being guarded) metaphysically (lying is immoral). When the latter case obtains shit gets weird.
5295
5296The second and bigger problem with your theory is that it has not created an absolute moral. People lie, differently in different places for different reasons. The best this gets us to is a cultural description of common behavior.
5297
5298Proposed entry for the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Sixth Edition (2026): Narciphobia
5299
5300Sorry I don't follow - which statement?
5301
5302How many of us have interest in neo reactionary views?
5303
5304But this is just behavior. There is nothing moral about learning how the world works. Your example of morality is a third party judgement about behavior. Which people have called God, a conscience or a superego depending on your perspective. It seems like it is someone else, which is why people think it's absolute, but it's not, it's you.
5305
5306Nietzsche covered this ground extensively in the genealogy of morals, what he had to say about guilt and debt, etc, guilt being a sort of memory of pain and fear of punishment.
5307
5308Most people use "morality" to justify judging others because they are uncomfortable with their own contempt and hostility, in my opinion.
5309
5310How many of us have interest in neo reactionary views?
5311
5312Is that what you think it is? That sounds like a description of cultural behavior. Plenty of things have worked well over time, for a time, until they don't work for someone else who doesn't like them.
5313
5314Muslim women draping their faces has worked well with them for a long period of time. It's certainly part of their morality of "modesty."
5315
5316I don't think talking about absolute morals gets us anywhere. I think muslims should knock it off.
5317
5318All that moral philosophy accomplishes is avoiding personal responsibility, which if anything is immoral.
5319
5320Proposed entry for the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Sixth Edition (2026): Narciphobia
5321
5322If you read the book, you'd get it, but I see how it could look in this context. In the beginning of the book she quotes the DSM about narcissism, then talks at great length about some of the problems of perspective with the diagnosis. She self diagnosis herself according to her joke about being phobic of other people's selfishness and part of the book is about her being less paranoid about her "bad boyfriend."
5323
5324I got a chuckle out of it when I got to the end.
5325
5326Proposed entry for the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Sixth Edition (2026): Narciphobia
5327
5328The quote in the OP is from the end of her book, and is intended to be humorous.
5329
5330She agrees with your take on r.raisedbynarcissists and writes extensively about the internet mania on the subject. Check it out! It's short, entertaining, extremely well researched and challenging.
5331
5332Proposed entry for the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Sixth Edition (2026): Narciphobia
5333
5334Dombek points out that we should be suspicious of "narcissism" because it is used to explain completely contradictory behaviors - such as both dominating from conversations and running away from them. Avoidant people think anxious people are narcissistic (constantly wanting attention) and anxious people think avoidant people are narcissistic (cold and aloof). People use the concept of narcissism to explain why they themselves feel uncomfortable with the perceived selfishness of others.
5335
5336Proposed entry for the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Sixth Edition (2026): Narciphobia
5337
5338That's what her entire book is about, I can't recommend it highly enough. It's the best layman's survey on the history of narcissism and its contradictions I have ever read.
5339
5340Proposed entry for the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Sixth Edition (2026): Narciphobia
5341
5342Dombek's book is the best I have ever read about narcissism and it has my highest possible recommendation. The only one who I think has explored this issue more thoroughly is perhaps Bernard Apfelbaum or Heinz Kohout. This long essay by Dombek, however, is extremely accessible and relatively low on jargon. Everyone interested in narcissism should read it and give it serious thought about what their commitment to this concept of narcissism is doing for them in their life.
5343
5344It's important to remember the OP is a joke. I've long said tongue in cheek that belief in a narcissism epidemic is a symptom of an anxiety disorder. This book is not far off, and if you're resistant to that possibility one should think carefully.
5345
5346Lots of interesting thoughts on Trump's "lying" here in the comment section.
5347
5348I didn't hide anything - I gave you what you asked for and more, and also gave some explanation as to why I did what I did - in that in the TLP sub reddit I generally approach questions differently than in an ordinary conversation.
5349
5350I think this might be more direct answer to your question: Someone who likes their job and loses their job will probably feel worse off with respect to their job. And, no, this does not mean they are absolutely worse off, all things considered. But yes, I do think they are worse off.
5351
5352I do acknowledge that many people are feeling insecure these days, particularly since the election. But there is an important difference between empathy or sympathy and over-identifying with other peoples perspectives. I would not, for instance, fall prey to guilt if - say - an SJW college professor of gender studies lost funding. I would be happy they lost their job, but not happy that they were suffering, if they were suffering...too much, well - maybe a little.
5353
5354How many of us have interest in neo reactionary views?
5355
5356Well, because moral feelings are still feelings, that's why. And people feel differently, for instance. If you believe in metaphysics of morality or God then we disagree. I would agree with you that you can still talk about absolute morality.
5357
5358A good example would be beating children. I think it's wrong, by which I mean I have contempt for the practice, among other sentiments. I also don't care if that isn't absolutely true. You might think this makes my position weaker when arguing with people about it, but quite the opposite. I don't get derailed by extraneous details and other peoples defenses because I'm clear it's my psyche against theirs and I intend to win with no excuses. It has nothing to do with "absolute morals," it's about what is important to two different people. I'm clear anyone defending this practice is trying to avoid the guilt and shame I know they have about it and my mission is to make them feel that.
5359
5360Claiming something is absolutely right or wrong just let's the judge take themselves out of the equation.
5361
5362How many of us have interest in neo reactionary views?
5363
5364Yep, good point!
5365
5366Can anyone who also feels this is viscerally abhorrent explain why?
5367
5368I assumed /u/wakawakalame was writing for impact, based on his Bukowskian prose. Unlike TLP I think identity matters a great deal and this reflects the difference between a "narcissism epidemic" and an "epidemic of anxiety about the selfishness of others."
5369
5370How many of us have interest in neo reactionary views?
5371
5372If Jessie were being "gratuitous" as I'm using it he would either have not become a meth dealer in the first place or would have done so in a way he enjoyed. Most of his behavrior in the show was driven by (1) his poor relationship with his parents, and (2) his unrequited need for a figure to look up to, Mr. White, who he then enacted an idealization/devaluation transformation with over the course of his character arch. His problems were with attachment and happened long before the curtain opened on breaking bad.
5373
5374Jessie's cure would have been for him to come to terms that he was misbehaving in order to get attention - in this case negative attention.
5375
5376Wanting money is generally wanting what money represents - in this case it was pleasure and opportunities and people looking up to you. Jessie used his money to bring people into his life (friends, women) but ultimately didn't get the closeness he was looking for because it was never about the money in the first place.
5377
5378What keeps people from getting involved in pleasurable but illegal activities is generally the fact that they are already getting what they need in their life.
5379
5380But my comments were mostly related to a self-conscious position in post modern history. I.E. even though you know politics may just be about virtue signaling in a process that is part of a cycle, being able to enjoy your position in the cycle self consciously. It looks like being Ok with not going down in history.
5381
5382How many of us have interest in neo reactionary views?
5383
5384I think morality should be understood as moral feelings. People, including myself, objectively have moral feelings and many have conflicting moral feelings. This often results in conflicts people would describe as immoral.
5385
5386I think the path toward objective moral values is understanding psychology. You can account for, in general, what brings people to do the things almost everyone finds morally reprehensible.
5387
5388Most of what drives ordinary individuals to turn their back on their community and become a problem to safety or happiness has to do with attachment, the superego, resentment, etc. So I am not worried about abandoning the idea that morals are metaphysical. The process of moral feelings can still be well understood.
5389
5390Most of our life is just feelings, including our morality. But that's a good thing because you can then enjoy very strong feelings - which are what make life worth living anyway.
5391
5392Can anyone who also feels this is viscerally abhorrent explain why?
5393
5394Do you believe that the people you call narcissists really want to feel shame?
5395
5396Lots of interesting thoughts on Trump's "lying" here in the comment section.
5397
5398Well the first on mostly represents my answer. What do you think I dodged? I gave you a lot man.
5399
5400How many of us have interest in neo reactionary views?
5401
5402Couldn't find the article I was thinking of but here is a related one: Journal of World Anthropology: Occasional Papers: Volume III, Number 1 97 Civilization, Transformation and Collapse Kurt D. Springs, M. Litt, University at Buffalo
5403
5404What I meant by my phrase can be broken down:
5405
5406Many in the post-modern have a depressive perspective like "we know too much about history/whatever to really sink our teeth into life."
5407This doesn't matter in the in the psychoanalytic view or in the Nietzschean perspective where the justification for actions is a lie that covers desire.
5408The solution is to enjoy living gratuitously - as in to enjoy actions without justification beyond your will.
5409Adults are ordinarily inhibited from such action by the superego or less often by the direct actions of others.
5410Learning to deal with the inhibitions of the superego is part of moving through shame.
5411"Was Alone a narcissist?" Is a question that past post history reveals is alarmingly frequent.
5412
5413Yep.
5414
5415How many of us have interest in neo reactionary views?
5416
5417I'm familiar with Bataille's "Accursed Share" but nothing beyond that.
5418
5419How many of us have interest in neo reactionary views?
5420
5421Yep. Unfortunately neo-reactionary views have been a central feature of culture since at least the 1500's when the protestant reformation introduced a focus on a sort of primitive Christianity.
5422
5423I account for this tendency in myself and others as a distaste for people who are constantly putting their own new stink on things in life.
5424
5425Unfortunately this of course is a defense against my own desire to do the same - as one can clearly see Luther and Calvin and their cohort did - inventing something new under the guise of returning to the past.
5426
5427As a final layer to the cake - Hegel and Toynbee and the rest of the cyclical historians would point out that none of this is new.
5428
5429The challenge of post modernism is how to enjoy it gratuitously given the knowledge of unoriginality, and the solution is working through shame.
5430
5431"Was Alone a narcissist?" Is a question that past post history reveals is alarmingly frequent.
5432
5433My answer is that everyone and nobody is a narcissist. Alone didn't realize he wanted a special kind of attention, and so got it indirectly through the internet until he got in trouble for it (as he suspected he would). God bless him for it.
5434
5435Can I get an angel shot?
5436
5437Given my exposition on "direct profit" please tell me who directly profits from killing in your example.
5438
5439You have criticized me at least three times for the way I'm writing to you. I've asked you before what do you want to know that I am not telling you, and you still have the option of answering that question. Otherwise please just come right out and tell me what you think I don't actually mean.
5440
5441You imagine that we go to war and millions of people die...and no one profits from it?
5442
5443Yes and no - only because you are directly linking (someone dying) with (someone profiting) without paying adequate attention to all the details between these two points which totally define the meaning of entire scenario as I explained in my example about selling weapons to the police.
5444
5445Can anyone who also feels this is viscerally abhorrent explain why?
5446
5447The concept of Narcissistic Supply is a heuristic - a sort of metaphor for understanding and distinguishing one phenomena from another introduced by Otto Fenichel in 1938, a man who is the originator of the psychoanalytic model which represents my world view, Ego Analysis. This term has been used extensively, and in my opinion incorrectly, by an internet figure named Sam Vankin who sees narcissism everywhere to the significant confusion of anyone interested in psychoanalysis.
5448
5449Your mother doesn't tell you to quit dressing like a whore because seeing your naughty bits makes her envious of your youth (or maybe she does). She does it because it's considered disrespectful to whore for attention in public.
5450
5451Personally, I think you need to finish that sentence. Your full thought needs to expose the subject and object of the sentence. Is it mother, or someone else, who considers "whoring for attention" disrespectful (to whom?).
5452
5453My mother once commented on a young woman dressed like a whore. She was a girl less than 10 years old with a jean skirt above her knees and a sleeveless tank top, skipping hand in hand with her happy parents in an airport. My response to her was "Jesus, she's ten years old!" How would you apply your understanding of narcissism to this real situation which I think is similar - but to be fair not identical - to your hypothetical one?
5454
5455It's perfectly fine to say "I don't like it when other people are trying hard to get attention" by the way. It's a sentiment I can totally relate to.
5456
5457Lots of interesting thoughts on Trump's "lying" here in the comment section.
5458
5459I'll give you several answers. This is the TLP subreddit after all:
5460
5461Personal emotional response: Neither of them are rational or justified. Things are going to be great. Look at how good they are already. And besides, things were really bad before.
5462
5463Playing along and pretending to be objective: If one accepts that it is rational to be afraid about possible future events of indeterminate probability then yes, both are rational fears. I would respond it's only rational if it demonstrates proportionality. I don't think the concept of "justified" can meaningfully be applied. In it's strict sense this can only be applied after the fact based on what actually happens and you can then assess whether the fear was legit or not. In its loose sense I understand it to be about feelings. This brings me to:
5464
5465Reject the premise I have not yet seen any reason to believe anybody is afraid. People who are afraid either (a) seek distance and run away, or (b) seek reassurance and comfort. A response of "feeling insecure" seems more accurate, but shames them because they think it makes them look weak. Most people seem to be feeling resentful. I interpret their claims of being afraid as a defensive way to blame Trump. In other words, to make him look bad for being a mean dangerous bully. In this sense, I do not take the question you asked seriously, but I don't say that to be offensive. I hope the willingness to respond at this length convinces you of that.
5466
5467Psychoanalytical: Hell, it's the TLP reddit. These are all rhetorical questions, I'm not asking you to actually justify any of this, I had fun writing my responses I wonder why you are asking me this question instead of just telling me what you think? Did you want to know what I think? What did you intend to do with that information? Were you hoping for a certain response? Did you get it? How did these 4 different responses effect the way you are representing me as a conversational partner or your experience of this conversation?
5468
5469Can anyone who also feels this is viscerally abhorrent explain why?
5470
5471The author is trying to steel her audience against shame.
5472
5473On this much we can at least partially agree. I think it is probably more accurate that she is trying to do this for herself by signaling for validation of her thoughts - which is perfectly ordinary.
5474
5475As for the rest, I get your case, but there is much we don't know. We don't have enough information to differentiate what is her superego vs what is an accurate response to real events in her environment. This is very complicated because the superego is formed by response to her environment.
5476
5477What I do not accept is the concept of narcissistic supply. Everyone needs validation. Some people are ashamed about getting it directly (for example, by confronting someone close to you strongly who is criticizing you about your millennia habits) and therefore get it less directly, such as by writing posts like she did.
5478
5479The reason they do this is because people shame them for trying to get validation. The reason these others do that is their own narcissism. The way they hide this knowledge from themselves is by blaming the person who wants validation for being narcissistic.
5480
5481Can I get an angel shot?
5482
5483You're not being accurate about the use of direct vs indirect. You introduced the term "directly related" which is different. But what you are not acknowledging is that the way you are using these terms is objectively false. I don't think we can get much further in this discussion without being clear about this kind of thing.
5484
5485For instance as a related example: Arms manufacturers sell weapons to police departments who both sometimes use guns to kill suspects and also use the threat of deadly force to enforce traffic laws. The arms manufacturer profits directly from the sale of guns. Whether the police kill suspects or enforce traffic tickets has no direct relationship to the profit made on the sale of a gun. It's false to say the arms manufacturer profits directly from killing suspects. It is even more glaringly false to say there is a direct relationship between profit and killing suspects. An example of this would be if the arms manufacturer got a bonus for every suspect killed by the police. That is what a direct relationship means. Now there may be an argument to make about an indirect relationship between killing suspects and profit made by arms manufacturers - but that requires a lot more thought and nuance than you have so far been willing to give this issue. But we really can't proceed without you admitting nobody ordinarily profits directly, or as a direct relationship, from the act of killing in warfare. Because it is obviously false.
5486
5487If I may try to paraphrase you and Saisarat: I get the message loud and clear that you don't like soldiers and think they are bad. You also assert this reflects more than your feelings, and is true in a broad sense - therefore justifying your derogatory attitude toward them.
5488
5489As long as you know what I am saying is that I do not acknowledge what you are saying is either true or good, you understand me.
5490
5491Can anyone who also feels this is viscerally abhorrent explain why?
5492
5493Their judgement of what? Adults? This doesn't need to be accounted for unless you think the author is lying about having experienced this.
5494
5495Where do you get starving Africans and homeless people from? Are you implying they should ordinarily feel guilty about these things? This is your judgement. I don't feel guilty when I see homeless people or starving Africans. I feel grateful for what I have. Sometimes I'm generous, usually I'm not, usually I'm sympathetic, sometimes I'm not. But never guilty - I didn't do anything to them and we have no relationship.
5496
5497Now, you would be accurate that the author does claim that adults are angry. This could be a projection of the authors anger - but I think the authors problem is that they can't actually express their anger in real life in a satisfactory way. I would also accept that the reason the author can't simply tell the haters "I'm angry that you're criticizing something I enjoy" is probably due to shame - in that they don't really feel entitled to be so bold to adults in person. But this is not an externalization in that many people, like you have demonstrated, do indeed think they are vapid - which causes their shame.
5498
5499I think the most accurate way to understand this article is as an ordinary complaint, with a bit of exaggeration, presented in a quasi-poetic tone to convey some feelings that the author can't work through in their current relationships.
5500
5501The interesting part is why people hate it.
5502
5503Can I get an angel shot?
5504
5505Does someone profit from their killing? Yes.
5506
5507This is objectively not true. You have distorted reality to justify your feelings. For instance, arms producers profit from the sale of arms. You've asserted or at least implied a direct causal and or ethical relationship when in reality profit is only indirectly related to "killing." Expanding the causal chain weakens your case. For example, arms companies still profit from the sale of arms in times of peace.
5508
5509Do they profit from their killing? No.
5510
5511There are two problems with this. First, soldiers are compensated for their service. So you could say this is profiting from their killing, but only if you again misconstrue the connection between cause and effect. American military personnel are not paid based on whether they kill or not, most never do, and those who do are following rules of engagement which ordinarily involves force-on-force interactions, collateral damage, and various categories of mistakes and crimes governed by international law. Also, if you extend the illustration a bit many soldiers profit in other ways from their service such as pride, future job skills, etc. I've said many here, obviously there are noteworthy exceptions.
5512
5513Do war mongerers profit from death? Yes.
5514
5515Warmongering represents a pejorative which assumes the correctness of the position your are arguing for and I am disagreeing with. I don't accept it's accurate, and for the sake of discussion I see no reason to even credit that "warmongerers" exist without you establishing what you mean by that. In general, using the term "warmongerer" and assuming it refers to reality is directing attention away from the fact that this simply reflects your feelings and judgments as an individual. And again, finally, whoever you're referring to does not directly profit from death and you'd have to make a better causal argument about indirect responsibility to establish this. If anything, the "military industrial complex" profits more from cold war and injuries than death. They make more money the less effective and less deadly combat is because it takes longer and is more expensive to kill fewer people in warfare.
5516
5517Do soldiers kill because of propaganda? Yes. War propaganda is a very real thing.
5518
5519I would accept that probably some soldier somewhere has killed only because of information that could be characterized rightly as propaganda. But that's a very weak case of what I understand you two are trying to say. What do you mean - only because of propaganda? Mostly because of propaganda? Some? All? Enough? These are important questions I believe you guys are sweeping under the rug to try and make a weak argument look stronger than it is. What about partial propaganda? For instance -someone who believes propoganda but is a coward, yet overcomes his cowardice because of his love for his country or desire to make someone he cares about proud? Or, hell, his love of adventure!
5520
5521Do soldiers kill because of society wide childhood trauma? I would wager that they do
5522
5523This last point has the same problems as the issues above. I'm very open to the impact of childhood trauma on violence in adulthood but find it an outrageous exaggeration to expand this to include an almost universal human phenomena - war.
5524
5525It's really not very complicated. People have conflicting interests and this often escalates to violence. Not everyone who participates in this feels guilty about it. Whether you think they should or not is all about you, not about them.
5526
5527Sub's collective feelings re: trump
5528
5529Thanks for the elaboration. To return to our original point of departure. You asked:
5530
5531Is there nothing interesting outside The Spectacle?
5532
5533Yes, of course. One example would be personal matter. The most obvious reason to me that persons don't focus on these events in public discussion is that they are aware strangers don't care and it is disappointing to be reminded of this fact when sharing the same in conversation.
5534
5535Your next question was:
5536
5537You sit here waiting for the barbarians..why not go out and meet them?
5538
5539I'm still not clear if you are referring to me, if you're making this claim as a generality about all or some sub-set of society, or if you're trying to be persuasive with your rhetoric. In general what you are discussing is reminiscent of the inhibiting effect of the superego and resulting passivity. Was your intention to persuasively convince me through this metaphor that in some way I am guilty of this behavior? If so, what does it have to do with my comment?
5540
5541Finally,
5542
5543Can't you be interesting instead?
5544
5545I think I'm interesting. I also think other people find me interesting. I like to validate these beliefs about myself and this is one reason I spend time on this sub, for instance. Everyone has these needs, and the more comfortable you are with the fact that you need to connect with your fellow man in a variety of ways the more so you can (a) enjoy it, and do it with some entertaining pizzazz, and (b) try to provide some value along the way by creating informative or interesting experiences for others.
5546
5547In general I'd say you underestimate how important it is to care about and identify with world events as either (1) an ordinary passive function of mental health, and (2) a necessary precursor to meaningful action.
5548
5549Question about narcissism
5550
5551There is a good book that just came out which was recently discussed on this sub. It's called the selfishness of others. I got it at someone's recommendation and read it in a day - it's that good. I recommend you give it a read. It's a short one and really explores this issue very deeply in an exciting low-jargon format.
5552
5553http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/26114379-the-selfishness-of-others
5554
5555The Hate that Dare Not Speak its Name
5556
5557Thanks for saying that.
5558
5559Who is the least narcissistic historical figure and why?
5560
5561Edmund Burke.
5562
5563His moderate politics proved a personal consistency of values which found him as friends and enemies with the same people on similar issues (the difference between the American and French revolutions). He represented a balance between the value of tradition, the needs of the present, and our responsibility to the future. He stressed the value of compromise and making gradual reform to existing relationships over the radical politics of revolution.
5564
5565He had secure attachments to his own objects (Religion, The monarchy, Britain) but also could acknowledge real flaws and support efforts at reform, rather than promoting destruction of the objects themselves or resorting to revolutionary fantasies of utopia.
5566
5567That's my vote. Good book on the subject is "The Great Debate" by Yuval Levine. Here's a youtube lecture: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-hJV12RB8w&t=2325s
5568
5569The Hate that Dare Not Speak its Name
5570
5571You bet!
5572
5573I think bigotry is a defense against the loss of ones important values and in this sense it doesn't bother me.
5574
5575If I want to avoid other peoples bigotry it's upon me to make adjustments - or try to overpower them. Thus to answer your question resisting outsiders doesn't bother me at all.
5576
5577One of the main points JMG makes about Berkian conservativism is that nobody every gets everything they want when you are trying to get along. I'd say the only sane approach to this is that we can't have no immigration and we can't have unchecked immigration. The left on this issue is trying to take all the marbles by not being willing to say no to anybody, and are covering up their lack of cooperation by claiming the moral high ground.
5578
5579I'd say alcohol represents a better historical example of cooperation. We're not going to have prohibition but we're also not going to allow public drunkenness and drunk motoring. The compromise in the middle is often arbitrary, but the point to me is to identify the party that is not even trying to compromise on the key issue. It is this behavior which escalates opposition and creates inflexible counter-reactions. It's also in this sense why I distrust morality to begin with. I find most morality to be a way to deny reciprocity and exchange.
5580
5581Sub's collective feelings re: trump
5582
5583I can tell you don't like how I'm answering your questions. What do you want to know that I haven't told you?
5584
5585It's also possible I just don't understand your original question. I'd like to know in your original question to my post: (1) What do you assert is a spectacle, and what does this characterization mean to you? (2) In your second sentence you are comparing something about the current situation to waiting for barbarians. Please elaborate in what way you think that comparison is relevant to my comments. (3) Please connect the dots for me - what point are you trying to make between being interested in world events vs being interesting, and how does it relate to my response to the OP?
5586
5587If you're stating your questions rhetorically I'd like you to just go ahead and tell me what you think instead of criticizing answers you don't like.
5588
5589Can I get an angel shot?
5590
5591Well, we obviously disagree and I'll leave you both to it.
5592
5593Can anyone who also feels this is viscerally abhorrent explain why?
5594
5595I think you have introduced guilt into the writer's point to account for your judgemental feelings in the same way Freud introduced guilt into psychoanalysis.
5596
5597they feel guilty for being so vapid.
5598
5599In this way it can be said that their shame (against which the quote rallies) could have an external source - namely the accurate knowledge that other people think they are vapid. It also has an accurate source of resentment - namely that other people nevertheless may actually be participating in the same activities they decry.
5600
5601The superego doesn't always reflect reality, and rarely reflects it completely. Ego analysis gives you the opportunity to focus on either (a) the ways the superego does reflect reality, or (b) the ways it doesn't. The important thing I like to stress is how this choice relates to the ego (the other mental structure) of the individual in question. Generally my operating framework is that our impulse to correct people is a response of our resentment to the fact that the other is trying to avoid shame which we punitively think they actually deserve.
5602
5603Sub's collective feelings re: trump
5604
5605Good question, but a little more personal than I care to share here. I'll say at least that I think caring usually precedes meaningful action.
5606
5607Can I get an angel shot?
5608
5609Ok - Saiserat thinks his feelings about soldiers reflect reality. I think they reflect Saiserat. I think the best way to explore that is by exploring Saserat's thoughts about other people's motivations.
5610
5611/r/Watches poster buys his holy grail, a family heirloom
5612
5613What do you mean by connect and how do you think one person "does it" to another?
5614
5615All this is very hypothetical. The guy buying the watch could be father of the year in addition to being obsessed with watches and having a fantasy about his child.
5616
5617Question about narcissism
5618
5619No. That's the cure to other people's problem. The cure to the narcissists problem is to get what he needs, so that one can enjoy caring about other people's problems.
5620
5621Lots of interesting thoughts on Trump's "lying" here in the comment section.
5622
5623It depends. I have trouble with the concept of "justification." No, for most. Yes, for some.
5624
5625Some individuals have rational fears. An example would be a citizen who has relatives who are illegal immigrants or who intends to harbor relatives who previously planned to illegally immigrate to the US. That's rational, but I would argue it is not entirely justified - in that the intention itself is the problem.
5626
5627Can anyone who also feels this is viscerally abhorrent explain why?
5628
5629I think you're being too cut and dry - which is fine, you may be right. I don't know. We won't solve that with competing generalizations. But in terms of the OP's question (content/reaction to content) how would you apply your claims about society (adults and young people) to the original question?
5630
5631/r/Watches poster buys his holy grail, a family heirloom
5632
5633That depends on how easy you think it is to connect with people. You're at least partially right. Someone substituting with a watch is probably having trouble admitting how worthless they feel, how hard it is for them to express love and support, and how sensitive they are to disappointment.
5634
5635/r/Watches poster buys his holy grail, a family heirloom
5636
5637It might help the rage to understand that people's relationships to objects still represent or stand in for relationships to other people. This is why the market has so successfully replace the function of most relationships.
5638
5639It's not great, but it make me a little less judgmental to think how hard it is for people to admit they want to be admired, remembered, and pass on things of meaning to others.
5640
5641The problem with marketing and objects is that it has contributed to people's sense that they can't do this without buying something - you know, like they have nothing to offer on their own. Which anyone prone to shame (Read: has not gotten their needs met) is very susceptible to believing.
5642
5643Can anyone who also feels this is viscerally abhorrent explain why?
5644
5645Agreed. My comment was identifying with the perspective of the article writer, contra the perspective of the OP.
5646
5647A less rhetorical way to state the truth claim of the article may be something like Adults today, more so than in the past, are looking backward toward youth for models of behavior and identification. This creates psychological pressure on young people that is novel compared to previous generations.
5648
5649Now, I'm not sure this is actually absolutely true, all things considered. But it's worth considering when you're trying to understand your response to something like the OP to consider both the most entitled rhetorical way of saying something and also the most objective.
5650
5651What's distracting about the quote is that the writer is using elevated terms to rally around generational trappings. I think what it distracts the reader from is the underlying alienation the author is trying to overcome by writing.
5652
5653That's my full take.
5654
5655Question about narcissism
5656
5657I think you have difficulty making and enjoying close relationships, have trouble with the perceived selfishness of others, and are critical of that in yourself.
5658
5659Cosplay or reality?
5660
5661I guess neither. I think one way to understand apocalyptic fear is as a defense (detachment/avoidant) against being fully invested in the current world.
5662
5663I think people actually care relatively little about our techno-fueled world, thus apocalypse.
5664
5665Cosplay or reality?
5666
5667I do. He runs an excellent blog called thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com. He is indeed an arch-druid, yet a moderate Burkian conservative nonetheless. You could check out his interviews on youtube for a quick summary.
5668
5669One of his main points is that people see the future as either (a) exponential technical salvation from here to star trek, or (b) total collapse. His point is that almost anything else is more likely than the two extremes. His prediction, along with James Howard Kunstler and me - is for things to get generally harder and shittier from and economic standpoint with some brief discontinuities of better/worse in areas. He wrote a book of the name Collapse Now and avoid the rush which is a good anthology. But everything he does is right up my alley.
5670
5671Famous evolutionary psychologist calls out the "fake, delusional and obnoxious" hysteria of the anti-Trumpists
5672
5673Haha, that's great! May you have a long and satisfying career!
5674
5675Yeah, it's politics, but TLP was a huge influence
5676
5677Not the same, no, better than ever!
5678
5679Cosplay or reality?
5680
5681As John Michael Greer would say - Collapse now and beat the rush.
5682
5683Lots of interesting thoughts on Trump's "lying" here in the comment section.
5684
5685What did you find interesting about the comments?
5686
5687Famous evolutionary psychologist calls out the "fake, delusional and obnoxious" hysteria of the anti-Trumpists
5688
5689Another response: You should only empathize if they're paying you or you enjoy it. Otherwise try to take care of yourself and stay away from difficult people. I have no desire to listen to people go on and on about blaming their problems on others without compensation, even though I know it's part of what they need. Beware of unilaterally helping difficult people as I predict you will find you are not helping them at all, but are playing a role in their life.
5690
5691Famous evolutionary psychologist calls out the "fake, delusional and obnoxious" hysteria of the anti-Trumpists
5692
5693Who? Ill with what?
5694
5695Famous evolutionary psychologist calls out the "fake, delusional and obnoxious" hysteria of the anti-Trumpists
5696
5697If I credit you that people always minimize/objectify/dehuminize their opponents into productions/characters/consumable identity products, that's fine. But I don't think this is done "to" anyone in the grand scheme. We do it ourselves. Winning the narrative and characterizing the opposition is part of what is required to be confident enough to take action despite opposition.
5698
5699Empathy is good on the individual level but it falls apart writ large. I always liked the quote Empathy is a weakness your enemies do not share.
5700
5701Famous evolutionary psychologist calls out the "fake, delusional and obnoxious" hysteria of the anti-Trumpists
5702
5703Yep - on an individual (one on one) level I'd generally understand it as a defensive posture against envy toward winners and guilt about previous behavior toward the opposition.
5704
5705Sub's collective feelings re: trump
5706
5707Only in a very obtuse manner. People do have real motivations, which are the inverse perspective of needs. Language can represent (signal) these real experiences. In response to your question I think that people who are accurately representing their motivations (or needs) should not be thought of as signaling if you mean that in terms of pretending of having a different motivation in favor of social prestige (virtue signaling to some).
5708
5709As for the second question both libertarians and commies take this strategy - that you have to use subterfuge to woo the masses. I think that the best test is live a desirable life based on your principals and the rest would sort itself out. If your values don't lead to a life which interests other people it really doesn't matter what else you think - you won't inspire anyone. It's always easy to inspire resentment since you never have to test it.
5710
5711Sub's collective feelings re: trump
5712
5713In this context I'd refer to the tendency to think you know what other people want or should want, which can be described as narcissistic. The assumption that all the peoples of the world want to or need to be wrapped up in global neoliberalism is the point of connection I'm alluding to.
5714
5715Famous evolutionary psychologist calls out the "fake, delusional and obnoxious" hysteria of the anti-Trumpists
5716
5717I thought it was pretty funny. I don't think one has to empathize with people all the time. And even if you do - depending on how you define empathy - how does one empathize with resentment without trying to insert your own interpretation of an underlying vulnerability?
5718
5719Famous evolutionary psychologist calls out the "fake, delusional and obnoxious" hysteria of the anti-Trumpists
5720
5721I'm not so sure this goes further than it feels good to win when you identify with the winning group, and that the latter are consolidating their solidarity. Did you have another answer to your question?
5722
5723Famous evolutionary psychologist calls out the "fake, delusional and obnoxious" hysteria of the anti-Trumpists
5724
5725Yes - it's nice that feminists finally got some exercise. Hooah!
5726
5727Sub's collective feelings re: trump
5728
5729I wouldn't worry about "shamelessness" for someone who obviously wants to liked. You have to worry about shamelessness in people who don't actually care. The dictatorial spirit is different than the populist one.
5730
5731Can anyone who also feels this is viscerally abhorrent explain why?
5732
5733That's more accurate, thanks. I think parents used to be pleased with the idea that their children would be better than they themselves were. Now I think that threatens parents. TLP had that point somewhere about asian parents.
5734
5735Good parents like good leaders can check their own ego to boost the moral of others.
5736
5737Sub's collective feelings re: trump
5738
5739Another great point. I love telling people "I like Trump's personality" and seeing them writhe.
5740
5741Sub's collective feelings re: trump
5742
5743Thanks for the response - I hardly believe in narcissism anymore. Generally when I write about it I'm concerned with perceived narcissism or an obsession with the selfishness and vanity of others. I try to see the world in terms of interests and loyalties.
5744
5745In this sense criticism is about doing battle, not revealing truth.
5746
5747What might answer the gist of your question could be: As far as narcissism is concerned in politics I'm quick to trust people who are openly vain and self interested so long as they are aware enough to extend this right to others and are capable of resolving conflicts of interest through negotiation. I only trust people who pretend not to want power and resources as a moral gesture who ask to be left alone as opposed to having opinions about my power(freedom) and resources.
5748
5749Can anyone who also feels this is viscerally abhorrent explain why?
5750
5751Marketing. Adults used to compete against their neighbors. They did this by trying to raise the best children.
5752
5753That's an exaggeration of course, but you get the point.
5754
5755Can anyone who also feels this is viscerally abhorrent explain why?
5756
5757Western adults compete against their children. Your dad was supposed to hate your music. Now he's trying to one up you with his playlist. Plus he's spending your inheritance on tickets to Coachella.
5758
5759You used to fight for identity with your kid brother who was copying your style, now its your mom.
5760
5761Sub's collective feelings re: trump
5762
5763Bingo - I'd extend that to much of our modern landscape. Do you want good intentions and bad deeds or unpopular opinions?
5764
5765Sub's collective feelings re: trump
5766
5767Then what comes after global neoliberalism, which you could say is the denial and projection of narcissism?
5768
5769Sub's collective feelings re: trump
5770
5771My pleasure!
5772
5773Sub's collective feelings re: trump
5774
5775I always thought that was chinese - now I know!
5776
5777Sub's collective feelings re: trump
5778
5779I voted for Trump, the first time I voted in my life. I'm prepared to be disappointed but enjoyed participating. It was one of my goals for the year to get involved in politics no matter what and put aside my previous cynicism about politics. It was worth it.
5780
5781All that aside I don't think the office of the President is as important as broad underlying issues such as: Energy, demographic shift, and the role of technology.
5782
5783Finally, I hope 2017 is real weird. I'm a fan of anything interesting happening.
5784
5785Can I get an angel shot?
5786
5787Well, I see your criticism about the way things are, I just don't accept that there is indeed a problem. We have no agreement there. Problems imply solutions. I think life is more of a predicament. Problems can be solved, predicaments just have results.
5788
5789Can I get an angel shot?
5790
5791No thanks. You can try asking them. And if you think you know why they do what they do better than they do - go ahead and tell them.
5792
5793Can I get an angel shot?
5794
5795By c'est la vie I meant that your values and your sons could of course be different, as were mine and my parents.
5796
5797Is it harder to think that your son would be drafted, or that he would want to enlist?
5798
5799I'm clear that the upper class can be sociopathic - just like the rest of us, only with more opportunity among other things.
5800
5801The lives of soldiers mean a great deal to many people - certainly more than the lives of most other people.
5802
5803Can I get an angel shot?
5804
5805I have no idea what you mean, but enjoyed the metaphor.
5806
5807Been coming back here, three, four years
5808
5809Kind of like 50 shades of grey without the moral high ground.
5810
5811Anyone have this problem (My own Narcissistic trait)
5812
5813The best pickup artist in the world once told me that people quote the simpsons in order to create an in-group sense which makes them feel more comfortable, and it alienates other people - especially chicks.
5814
5815Everything people do in public is for attention. I usually don't want to give it, so no judgement here. But it can be valuable to consider why - as in this situation perhaps this guy is a loser who you don't want to be seen as having a connection with. or something like that.
5816
5817Can I get an angel shot?
5818
5819C'est la vie my friend. One of my biggest regrets in my life at this stage is not joining the military while I still could - my parents opposed it, among other reasons. Of course, I also felt completely differently at other points in life - marching with my punk rock anarchist cohorts against and for various causes as a teen and 20 something.
5820
5821For me one of the biggest barriers to wanting children is really coming to terms with the fact that their life doesn't have anything to do with mine the way I'd like it to.
5822
5823And with that in mind I'm sure the military would have disappointed me the way the same way my punk rock involvement did. These days I have the conviction that while our attachments may be arbitrary, we do indeed have to defend them to lead a good life.
5824
5825Thank you for the personal discussion. I'm enjoying it and it's making me reflect.
5826
5827Anyone have this problem (My own Narcissistic trait)
5828
5829Bingo. Everyone copies other people, and it's also natural to feel like they shouldn't. Those who feel one shouldn't copy others are copying someone who treated them this way. It's usually a parent who rejects their child for copying either mother or father - or a sibling who resents the younger for copying them.
5830
5831Can I get an angel shot?
5832
5833I answered your first question but don't want to jump right into a second. I'm not sure if you don't agree with the general argument or are asking for one specific example for the general claim I made.
5834
5835Does anyone have examples of psychologists studying healthy people?
5836
5837I don't have any good examples and this has been a problem. In my opinion it is made worse by the cognitivists and behavioralists who simply encourage modeling behavior. You'd have to model motivations.
5838
5839Can I get an angel shot?
5840
5841The endless struggle is that women's interests seem to be of central interest to women and they therefore want such issues to be of more central importance to others. The same historically goes for men, and everyone else for that matter.
5842
5843The positive solution is for those who provide the most value to others to get more prominent attention so they can be role models to others. The negative solution is to manipulate the attention you want from others - either by sheer force, or as today by being a victim.
5844
5845Can I get an angel shot?
5846
5847That's fair. I'd rejoinder that it also means you don't get to be responsible for their joy. I wonder how many people who have had lives of some considerable suffering are nevertheless glad for it. But that's about me, not about you.
5848
5849Can I get an angel shot?
5850
5851I wrote the below but then realized on closer scrutiny you answered my question at the end - women objectify their daughters. I've included the original post for the hell of it.
5852
5853Nice post but could you tell me more about what you mean by things like
5854
5855...robbing agency from the individual female and taking away the responsibility ...
5856
5857I'm struck by you ascribing agency to some third party and wonder if you mean this metaphorically or literally. Are you asserting a direct conspiracy of sorts or are you describing the spirit of our times?
5858
5859I don't tend to believe in conspiracies not because I don't think people want to conspire, but because I think people in whole are incompetent and bad at keeping secrets in groups.
5860
5861In terms of the spirit of our age I'd ask What is the process by which broad social phenomena effect individual psychology?
5862
5863Loosely I answer that question for myself by two points, one from Hegel and one from Rene Girard:
5864
5865To Girard, people want what other people want because other people want it. Motivation is conditioned unconsciously through imitation.
5866Incorporating the Hegelians dialectic (what Girard would call a mimetic crisis), people continue down this path until some point at which they create their own opposition - an opportunity for the antithesis to their motivation to flourish.
5867I don't think there is any escape for those who are aware of this besides (1) transcending desire, or (2) participating gratuitously as in, yes, this all is happening and I wouldn't have it any other way. Nietzsche's I will it thus!
5868
5869As in - if you realize that love is a process of attachment to people who stroke your ego - so what? What keeps one from enjoying the ride?
5870
5871Can I get an angel shot?
5872
5873I guess it depends on what you mean by taking it seriously. It doesn't bother me overmuch in my personal life. But people are indeed ruining each others lives with these struggles.
5874
5875I agree that some version of this has and always will exist. My diagnosis is that this is magnified in the absence of other historical struggles which in the west are now reduced. For example: Overt class struggle, open conflict between opposing homogeneous ethnic groups, etc.
5876
5877Can I get an angel shot?
5878
5879So true!
5880
5881Can I get an angel shot?
5882
5883It's an attention economy. Bad attention on men, white people, straight people - in that order. Good attention on everyone else. Distort reality to match and presto - you have achieved the metaphysical illusion that you are at the hot holy center of the universe...which helps keep the horror at bay for a bit.
5884
5885I just hope we run out of oil soon. Then at least we can get back to laborers, conquerors and charlatans. Fingers crossed history won't suffer fools forever.
5886
5887The threat of the Bomb
5888
5889Yep, there you go. In this instance it would be the cultural values of neo-liberalism cum progressive globalism. "We're all on a patch toward multi-cultural techno star trek future."
5890
5891The threat of the Bomb
5892
5893I don't think so. If you think of anything or have related source material, let me know.
5894
5895Why can't I be what I want to be?
5896
5897What needs to be done?
5898
5899You don't know what needs to be done. Neither do I. And I assume, neither does the OP.
5900
5901Why can't I be what I want to be?
5902
5903Well, you're right I suppose - not sympathetic but not intended to be unsympathetic. I think it's very relevant to figure out what just happened, if anything. Like a breakup, missed opportunity, conflict, or other life event.
5904
5905The Purpose of Friendship?
5906
5907In jest - It seems friends are about boosting your ego - relationships are about bringing it back down again.
5908
5909Why can't I be what I want to be?
5910
5911I suggest you begin with "Why did you post this question now?"
5912
5913Do you enjoy your suffering? Understanding defense against change
5914
5915Take an example like hoarding. Watch the show hoarders. On the surface it looks like the person has an OCD type behavioral problem. But it's always the case that underneath it all is some past or present relationship problem - like loss, or family system issues.
5916
5917While you can sometimes change a behavior, what usually offers lasting changes accompanied by insight is understanding what the weird behavoir is for in your life. In this case, it's usually about keeping people away.
5918
5919Do you enjoy your suffering? Understanding defense against change
5920
5921I didn't say you should do that. It's a part of you. Different mental functions represent very different things. Understanding that all aspects of your conscious internal dialogue are indeed "you" in the strict sense that these thoughts are not the voice of god, mind control, or alien implantation is indeed important. But that isn't about the unconscious.
5922
5923Do you enjoy your suffering? Understanding defense against change
5924
5925Also curious if you're a fan of Milton Erickson, Bateson and hypnosis what your model of "how hypnosis works" squares with what you mean "everything in your mind is you."
5926
5927Do you enjoy your suffering? Understanding defense against change
5928
5929I don't know if we can get any farther in this discussion if we can't be clear that your use of the term software as applied to the brain is a metaphor. Richard Bandler and others in the NLP and CBT ilk rely on the acceptance of this kind of appealing simplification as a trojan horse for a variety of other conclusions about what is happening.
5930
5931You have expanded "thinking" to cover so much that your original proposition is a tautology or banality.
5932
5933I have read The Structure of Magic and various other of Bandler's books and would say he is so obsessed with linguistics that he often misses the fact that words are not things - they are symbols which refer to things. Finding out what language refers to, how those representations are distorted, and most importantly, what is motivating the individual to misrepresent these relationships.
5934
5935The one plus I give NLP is that the original linguistic approach of Structure of Magic is very useful in ascertaining what people don't want to talk or think about. After that Bandler went totally off the deep end.
5936
5937Bandler took the best parts of his theory from Gregory Bateson, author of the excellent book "Steps toward an ecology of mind." Either way - Tony Robbins stole it much the way Wayne Dyer stole from Albert Ellis. At least Dyer got sued.
5938
5939Much like with other cliche's such as "nobody can make you have a feeling" I think some of the simple concepts are more exhortations toward responsibility than descriptions of reality. In our case if we were to try and reconcile "Everything in you mind is you" with "Everything in your mind is about other people" we'd have to insert "Everything about you is also about other people." A proposition I'd generally agree with, though it is an exaggeration.
5940
5941This would be reflected by the therapeutic tendency for people who take more responsibility for their lives to become less inwardly focused and more focused on others - or "object oriented."
5942
5943The threat of the Bomb
5944
5945I think I was the one who speculated on that. My reasoning was that post WWII fear of conflict on the international level created a personalized feeling among boomers that certain kinds of hostility and forms of pride had to be suppressed in themselves and their children in order to hide their own fears.
5946
5947I applied it to why all political arguments seem to run directly to nazis/the holocaust. It's like an unconscious phobia people can't seem to shake - like we're convinced anything other than a utopia of global progressivism is going to inevitably lead to holocaust. And the solution, among other things, is to ignore significant portions of reality to try and suppress pride among the powerful and indulge the resentment of the weak.
5948
5949It's like an anxious mother interfering in the lives of her children - protecting the younger by suppressing the older one.
5950
5951Mostly speculation, but I like it.
5952
5953Do you enjoy your suffering? Understanding defense against change
5954
5955I think we've both gotten a little metaphorical, but we might just disagree. The brain certainly does not run on software, you'd have to tell me what you meant by that metaphor. I'd also disagree that you have to think about something before you do anything - unless you are expanding thinking to include unconscious processes. It's often bizarre to hear CBT's deny the unconscious and then talk about "hidden assumptions."
5956
5957When speaking of "you" we'd have to differentiate. You as a complete physical entity from what psychoanalysts call "ego" in order to separate "self" from ones representation of the self - which happens in the mind. May self with a small "s" vs Self with big "S."
5958
5959I don't know what you mean in your third point
5960
5961Which can be done backwards by changing the representations.
5962
5963My headline for this whole disagreement can be applied to your last statement:
5964
5965How you think of it it matters. Realising its yours and therefore changable is very useful.
5966
5967I find this aspect of CBT, NLP etc objectionable. Changing the way you think (or feel) about something as a solution to a problem is very different from changing relationships and solving problems. Definitely useful - but also important to remember that everything which is ours was once someone elses. Unless one believes in a soul, that is.
5968
5969Do you enjoy your suffering? Understanding defense against change
5970
5971It depends on whether you take fantasy seriously or not. Relationships to people and objects are fantasies (motivated representations) - but they are also the most important thing, and comprise the sense of self. You can't even have a concept about being tall, or smart, without thinking about other people.
5972
5973So no, not literally inside your head. You only represent other minds. But given that the mind is only representation in this conversation, I'd nevertheless rejoinder that it is changes in relationships which are ultimately trans-formative for the problems which bring most people to therapy.
5974
5975And finally, since your concept of yourself if we say is in the mind instead of comprising your mind - this is no more real than your representation of other people minds. So it seems like it's either both or neither.
5976
5977Power
5978
5979Got it, yes, there is no absolute relationship between a person and an object. The relationship exists in people's minds and property is a civil right, not a natural one - unless you argue that this process i just described is natural, which anthropologically is dubious.
5980
5981Do you enjoy your suffering? Understanding defense against change
5982
5983I can't agree with you on this one. The mind is almost entirely other people - our sense of how we compare and contrast to others, what we want from them, what we make of their attention, etc.
5984
5985The second part gets symantic and it depends on what you think you are doing when you are changing your thoughts.
5986
5987Power
5988
5989I think I largely agree with you. The original idea was that people had to have a strong enough Ego to handle the uncomfortable truths of psychoanalysis. They called failures due to the negative therapeutic response and invented personality disorders to explain why people couldn't handle their interpretations. You are also correct that it wasn't really until much later that shame came to the forefront as the problem in this situation. Yet the challenge persists how can person A help person B to feel less inferior to person A without dominating person B and undercutting the whole process.
5990
5991I'm Ok with "hurting" people. "Hurt" generally means a blow to the ego. I admit I'm not sure whether entirely for me or them or somewhere in between and I try to be Ok with that ambiguity.
5992
5993This is a difference in Apfelbaum's ego analysis. Traditionally analysts wanted to get people to the somewhat somber and serious "depressive" position. They discounted much of what people say and do as a "manic defense." While it might be truer to see the world from this place, Apfelbaum convinced me that it is (a) faster and cheaper, given the commitment to a long analysis, (b) more enjoyable to help people feel more entitled to their perspective.
5994
5995Being entitled has a bit of a bad connotation these days. Think of it more as in you are so relaxed about what you are doing (such as telling someone you're upset with them) that you can do it without any defensiveness caused by self doubt. His theory being that what makes things look "immature" or "excessive" or "grandiose" is that people are pushing too hard in order to ignore their own internal negativity.
5996
5997Power
5998
5999Could you elaborate - I'd be interested at the connection.
6000
6001Power
6002
6003Haha - good one!
6004
6005Power
6006
6007It's only a conflict based upon the expanded definition of power you provided. Acting on an object (without the possibility of resistance) is not the same as acting on another actor.
6008
6009A fish cannot meaningfully resist being stamped on when out of water. Even a human hostage upon pain of death has a margin of ability to refuse compliance.
6010
6011Another way to talk about power is that the desire for power among humans is the desire for people to submit to you - which gives the illusion that something about your essence causes them to act, as opposed to something arbitrary about the role you occupy in the minds of others (such as those who would enforce your desires).
6012
6013Power
6014
6015You are right about that - but let's not extend the ability to act so far that we lose the distinction. Beyond sheer physical ability, power among men is about what other people let you do.
6016
6017Power
6018
6019How do you reconcile the fact that power is primarily given to you by others? It's a mask that they help you wear.
6020
6021We'd think a peasant was mad if he thought he were the king. Another perspective is that t's equally mad for the king to think he really is the king - as opposed to playing that role for others. Those who "abuse" power generally struggle with this illusion, and have to commit attrocities to try and hide this from themselves. Their power isn't about them at all, it's about their relative location in a web of other people's minds.
6022
6023Makeup for men!
6024
6025I always thought "divide" was more appropriate than "enrage" as used by Alone. Creating a brand/market involves dividing people so that they can identify with products/brands.
6026
6027How to find a decent therapist?
6028
6029You're welcome and I think you see the value of this kind of conversation. Seems to me you have a hunger for more authentic communication, and I'm not sure but if I ventured a guess it might be inhibited by something such as an unconscious sense that you have to be civil or not seem excessive or something like that. Is that close?
6030
6031I've started up my own little website to share my thoughts. The title and format are a nod to The Last Psychiatrist. The depth and factual foundation of Alone's posts is really inspiring to me.
6032
6033My pleasure - thanks for joining and sticking with the conversation!
6034
6035I've started up my own little website to share my thoughts. The title and format are a nod to The Last Psychiatrist. The depth and factual foundation of Alone's posts is really inspiring to me.
6036
60371 You take a descriptive quality (whiteness) and ascribe a mental state to the holders. You then discount their perspective with the following:
6038If you are in the majority, in many ways society is like a shoe that has been tailored to fit you. Then if someone else wants a shoe that fits them, maybe they can't wear your shoe. That doesn't make them entitled. It's an issue of lacking self awareness. The fish can forget that it's floating in water if it's never been out of that water.
6039
6040The majority can indeed understand other peoples perspective. Their problem, if I may venture a guess, is with people whose perspective it is to blame them for their problems, and conceal that fact in an ideology of victimhood through group affiliations. Most people reject this perspective, they do no misunderstand it, and it certainly isn't for lack of awareness since I would assert America is saturated with this message.
6041
6042As a final point of rebuttal your speech example does not hold. The case of the white people speaking is an idiom. The use of axe vs ask is one of vernacular. These are not the same thing. If you doubt that vernacular is a fair predictor, not a form of prejudice, check out Pygmalion, or My Fair Lady. It is a very solid predictor of socioeconomic background and one could fairly assume anyone who says it probably has a low level of education. It is definitely a good predictor which gives no evidence of prejudice. Prejudice means judging before experience, not after direct experience. Your example is probably best described as simply being critical. I don't think we're going to stop people from being critical and I'd say its none of my business what other people want to be critical of. People like to freely associate with others of similar background - which generally means similar educational and income levels. One of the reasons they do this is to avoid criticism or the unpleasantness of not liking how critical they feel when around very different people.
6043
60442 I mistook some of my tenses here and instead of responding to your examples which I think would make us talk past each other let me phrase it differently:
6045Replace
6046
6047If you are part of a group and you want people to see your group positively you have to support other peoples interests. Plain and simple, if you're focused primarily on your groups self interests other people won't like you - nor should they. You've decided to ignore them and make them your enemies
6048
6049With If you choose to align yourself with a group which pursues the interests of group members through its group activities, you as an individual will make individual enemies within other interest groups by virtue of your group affiliation unless your group makes broad efforts to support and ally yourself with others.
6050
6051Jean Claude Guillebaud (1999) - The Tyranny of Pleasure
6052
6053On the issue of losing the fusion connection with the mother and the effect on later life people are not clear whether this connection was real (and therefore something to be mourned if lost) or imaginary in the first place.
6054
6055So depending on the perspective someone who feels lonely in the bedroom may either (a) be picking up on a sad reality, or (b) may be a victim of irrational expectations for closeness which is a reflection of a fantasy.
6056
6057So the loss is either the loss of a real relationship, or a process of disillusionment about a fantasy relationship. What complicates the language used in this conversation is that in some schools of thought relationships are fantasies - not as in they don't exist - but as in they are emotionally motivated distortions or reality.
6058
6059Do you enjoy your suffering? Understanding defense against change
6060
6061...this means that you feel guilt or shame over wanting your own problems and refuse yourself sympathy for not not wanting the problems.
6062
6063Exactly. Your ability to take yourself seriously (feel like you deserve forgiveness or compassion) is directly tied to your feelings about others.
6064
6065I've started up my own little website to share my thoughts. The title and format are a nod to The Last Psychiatrist. The depth and factual foundation of Alone's posts is really inspiring to me.
6066
6067They're both great - just edited mine not to refer to a part which wasn't there anymore so as not to confuse anybody.
6068
6069I've started up my own little website to share my thoughts. The title and format are a nod to The Last Psychiatrist. The depth and factual foundation of Alone's posts is really inspiring to me.
6070
6071It's mainly victimary groups which think other people believe these steriotypes. To think your enemies believe "all" of a group are a certain way is a psychological defense. It's projecting splitting (breaking the world into harsh categories of good/bad) onto your enemy. The reason you do this is to hide that you yourself are doing it, so you can marginalize the opposition. Enter the hatred of "cisgendered white people." Lucky for the victimary groups, white-anglo-saxon-protestants have an unconscious need for punishment which boggles the imagination.
6072
6073I've started up my own little website to share my thoughts. The title and format are a nod to The Last Psychiatrist. The depth and factual foundation of Alone's posts is really inspiring to me.
6074
6075There is a difference between "I want to fuck dudes" and "I am part of the LGBT community" in the same way there is a difference between "I am black" and "I'm part of the African American Community."
6076
6077The first in each of these comparisons is a fact, the second is an identification with an interest group.
6078
6079Identifying oneself as part of a group is always going to result in you not being treated as an individual. To outsiders, they reject your group identifications - and "one of the good ones" tends to mean "they're on my side" or at least that they are not part of a group which is opposing their interests.
6080
6081I think it's a misguided expectation to publicly identify yourself as part of an interest group and then be surprised when other groups you oppose (and are prejudiced against) treat you as a member of a group rather than an individual.
6082
6083So, for instance, if one identifies oneself as part of a group that is dedicated to defending the "African American Community" this tends to mean defending all black people, or minimizing negative attention on any given black person. It can't possibly mean "giving equal credit where credit is due" because if that was the case there would be no need for a group. The defense for this kind of thing is always downplaying negatives with the excuse that you are a victim which is incredibly annoying to anyone outside your interest group. Anyone who acts like this should expect to be lumped together as a mass - because that's exactly how they themselves are acting.
6084
6085Black people aren't all criminals. They're also not all victims who blame other people. White people aren't all racists, they also don't all assume they have unearned moral prvilideges based on the lack of one uncivil prejudice. Give up both and anybody can be one of the good ones - the good people, that is.
6086
6087If you are part of a group and you want people to see your group positively you have to support other peoples interests. Plain and simple, if you're focused primarily on your groups self interests other people won't like you - nor should they. You've decided to ignore them and make them your enemies, and - get this - the excuse of victims is that they don't have to play nice since ALL of their group has been hurt, usually by EVERYONE else.
6088
6089Victims as individuals do really exist. Victimary class interests are unethical and other people don't like "marginalized groups" because their group interests, not their individual ascriptive qualities, are toxic bullshit to the interests of the community at large.
6090
6091Truth
6092
6093You got it. You'll never truthify something without risk, because you have to fight opposition to the death - metaphorically.
6094
6095Truth
6096
6097In general I agree with your main thesis is that progress is an illusion best understood as whoever is pushing for progress simply meaning "I like these changes" which can either be understood as "I like what we're creating" or I like destroying what we're replacing.
6098
6099But I think we've talked about my response to your simplification to sex and money or violence before. Not sure if you're being hyperbolic or literal and I'm not trying to say life is about puppies and rainbows - but I think the case for their being more motivations including positive attachment, status, etc.
6100
6101Truth
6102
6103Jealous on the beer - I've had at least one too few! Happy to clarify anything.
6104
6105Truth
6106
6107When you say
6108
6109...progress is mode(sic) through an increasing degree of consensus
6110
6111I think it is problematic. Talking about truth in the 21st century begs a linguistic consideration. You're discussing the creation of an "institutional fact" (Searle, http://ontology.buffalo.edu/FARBER/atria.html). This is a bit of language which is shared but only claims to refer or represent something in reality, it is not real itself, it is only a shared symbol.
6112
6113The key for psychoanalysis is that this language may or may not accurately refer to reality. It may only refer to another symbol, or even only to itself. People distort reality on purpose and the reason they do this is to stroke their ego - for better or worse. When they do it together they are constructing whatever it is we mean by "social constructs." People who realize this forget they are at the same time part of a new social construct. This could be the "antithesis" of the Hegelian dialectic.
6114
6115As a contrary point of view I'd offer that consensus is usually intended to boost a collective self esteem or keep people from infighting , and "progress" is equally about attacking and destroying consensus, revealing the motivated distortions it conceals.
6116
6117If everything in society at large is about the action of interest groups (Bentley, https://isistatic.org/journal-archive/pr/13_01/hale.pdf), then progress may only be possible in those spheres where the truth (institutioanl facts) of one group can be tested to the death against other views.
6118
6119If being wrong won't kill your enemies (at least metaphorically), I doubt the truth will be found any time soon. One man's progress is another mans decline into decadence.
6120
6121Do you enjoy your suffering? Understanding defense against change
6122
6123I think "stimulating" is clearer than "enjoy." Much in the sense that "bad attention" is better than "no attention." People don't defend against change - though that's a catchy slogan. They defend against blows to the ego, by which I mean loss of attachments. The hard part about this is that any attachment, even a painful one (like being attached to being a loser), is better than none - because the empty ego is one of abject horror.
6124
6125This article is a little tough in that it focuses on guilt, Freud's stumbling block, rather than shame. This is based on Freud's commitment to the individual psyche. Including shame perspectives let's one peer into the issue a little deeper "Do people really want their problems, or do they feel un-entitled to live otherwise - as if the world and their own self hatred (superego/negative self talk/wounded inner children, critical parent, stinking thinking, maladaptive patterns) won't let them?
6126
6127The flipside of the intersubjective school of psychoanalysis - including Apfelbaum's Ego Analysis is that if you believe people really want their problems, then you are justified in ignoring them and refusing them sympathy. It justifies your resentment, disdain and criticism. And, oddly enough, reinforces self hatred and masochism.
6128
6129The Selfishness of Others by Kristin Dombek
6130
6131In the case anxiety about narcissism (the selfishness of others) can loosely be connected to the uncanny nature of representing other peoples minds - which always sort of seem absent or too present, to borrow your words. One thing people don't spend enough time thinking about is "what makes other peoples presence enjoyable to me, and conversely, what would make my presence enjoyable to others?"
6132
6133The Selfishness of Others by Kristin Dombek
6134
6135Not yet! It's now on the list thanks to your solid recommendation in the OP.
6136
6137The Selfishness of Others by Kristin Dombek
6138
6139Just finished it. Highest possible recommendation. Thanks again - everyone on this site should read this book.
6140
6141The Selfishness of Others by Kristin Dombek
6142
6143Well, my personal answer is the fear of apocalypse post World War II. But that's a very long story.
6144
6145The Selfishness of Others by Kristin Dombek
6146
6147Wow - thanks for sharing this. I have long said that the belief in a narcissism epidemic is a symptom of an anxiety disorder and I can't wait to read this book. Thanks again.
6148
6149How to find a decent therapist?
6150
6151You're welcome. Since you hadn't discussed your conflicts or disappointments with your previous therapists I give you my highest possible recommendation to do so in the future. I predict this will be more important than your choice of therapist. It will bring up issues such as guilt about offending other people, shame about not being able to get your point accross, defensiveness and hostility about having different world views, depression about rallying around your point of view, etc.
6152
6153How to find a decent therapist?
6154
6155I'd first ask what should be an obvious question followed by a less obvious one: First - have you discussed these criticisms (being too nice) with your therapists - do you see it as a criticism or is it a desire (to be seen and treated like you can handle more)? Second question: What makes you think you need to be challenged, or that you'd enjoy that more than someone who is nice?
6156
6157I don't have a one size answer for your final questions. Some therapists are afraid of making you defensive, or don't believe they should. Others might see your behavior, from what little you have said, as someone who unconsciously thinks they deserve a scolding and who are nicely refusing to participate. Talk about these issues and your speculations about them and you'll get to the bottom of it.
6158
6159How to find a decent therapist?
6160
6161I recommend you consider a few broad practical issues. (1) Insurance/cost. If you have any financial limitations consider group therapy. You can get a lot of practical value out of this at a much lower cost. (2) Do you want/need an MD psychiatrist who can prescribe medication. If you would rather work without medication, which I recommend, MD's will tend to be more expensive and busier unless they are psychoanalysts who don't work in a hospital. Which brings me to (3) Most analysts will expect a long term commitment to meet several times a week. This is incredibly beneficial to those who can do so. If you really can't or aren't interested in this and want to meet only once a week you can still look for a psychodynamic therapist who doesn't do "analysis" but applies psychoanalytic theories.
6162
6163The best way to answer this question is that your process of choosing a therapist is part of your therapy and I would recommend you keep this in mind. Most people discover they picked their therapist in part for a weird reason - such as they thought they could dominate them, or they seemed like they wouldn't be critical/thought they could slip one past them. Or they seemed "nice" and secretly hoped to be treated with kid gloves and not put on the spot.
6164
6165The big key to me is that the largest part of therapy will eventually manifest as what is happening between you and the therapist in the room. It's important to pick someone who thinks that is an appropriate and important subject of your conversation.
6166
6167You may try reaching out to Dan Wile, a colleague of Apfelbaum's who is an author and has a website, to see if he can recommend anyone in your area. He is located in Oakland.
6168
6169You can also ask if a psychoanalyticallly oriented therapist is aware of and open to the intersubjective school of thought. This is an important distinction about what people think is really happening in the present.
6170
6171In the end it is your journey and whatever disagreements, paranoia's or upsets you have about your therapist are an important part of the process. So in some ways you could say "bad is good" and another school of thought is to let your unconscious be your guide. Choose with your gut, and then learn why you did that.
6172
6173Discuss: The TLP School of Critique
6174
6175When a "thesis" or idea is pushed it creates it's "antithesis" by reaction . The antithesis becomes the new thesis. In psychology and TLP this generally is applied broadly to defenses. In other words what someone is campaigning for (their thesis) often covers the fact that it is creating it's own antithesis.
6176
6177Year versus the life time
6178
6179True - I'd probably say most people are doing the labor of someone else's work.
6180
6181Year versus the life time
6182
6183I'm not so sure about that. Most primitive societies I've studied in anthropology seemed obsessed with status and hierarchy. Big Man cultures, etc. I don't think one can generalize to human nature, but it definitely isn't uncommon.
6184
6185Year versus the life time
6186
6187I recommend to those struggling with this issue to consider Hannah Arendt on the difference between labor and work.
6188
6189https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Human_Condition_(book)#III_-_Labor
6190
6191Labor, like sweeping the floor, is the activity that is never ending which preserves our life. Work is something which produces a durable object - be it tangible or otherwise. People want to work and in the knowledge worker economy I think their hunger goes a bit feral.
6192
6193Year versus the life time
6194
6195I'm with you and Hannah Arendt on this one. She makes a great distinction between labor and work. Gonna post it to the OP too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Human_Condition_(book)#III_-_Labor
6196
6197Labor, like sweeping the floor, is the activity that is never ending which preserves our life. Work is something which produces a durable object - be it tangible or otherwise. People want to work and in the knowledge worker economy I think their hunger goes a bit feral.
6198
6199Our very own whale_toe gets lionized by the bluepill subreddit: a thought or two
6200
6201Thanks whale_toe. I had to scratch my head at the thread a few times before I thought I had anything to add. Have a happy new year, by the way.
6202
6203Our very own whale_toe gets lionized by the bluepill subreddit: a thought or two
6204
6205Truth is a fickle ally who everyone wants to recruit. Those who can't talk about relationships in terms of what they individually want are telling you more about themselves than they are about the world. If you want a traditional relationship, you can have one. If you want an unfettered life, you can have one. Your psychological strength is mostly about how strongly you can stand up for what you want in the face of people who are hiding what they want - usually behind arguments about the truth.
6206
6207Symbolic Power and Responsibility
6208
6209That's a good point. But I think Christian theology distinguished behavior among the faithful and authority within the Church vs. Christians relationship to authorities "of the world." The ultimate view being for Christians to understand that all authority comes from God - which among the faithful should have one effect (humility), and within the world another (give unto ceaser, etc.) understanding that worldly authorities were not part of the church. I think the secular lesson could be that one should view authority roles among ones family and intimate community of friends lightly and with grace, yet not expect this same gentle spirit in life at large among non intimate companions.
6210
6211Thanks everyone. -- Resilience?
6212
6213Yeah, you're right. My point was stated rhetorically too strongly. If you extend the definition of new information to mean the output of processing or synthesizing you're definitely right. I would possibly rejoinder for sake of discussion that this is more about our relationship to or feelings about or understanding of previous information. An example might be visualization in phobia extinction, such as imagining a spider crawling on your skin. It's true there is some good evidence on the effect of visualization and response reduction (disgust, terror, etc.) titration but I think this is about desensitizing the response to a previous stimulus - processing past information. A fun question to challenge the behaviorists is always "from where does a stimulus acquire it's power to trigger a response?"
6214
6215Thanks everyone. -- Resilience?
6216
6217I think self as other is probably best described as a fantasy about relationships, which I characterize as a substitute or compensation. This could be adequate, I suppose. I'd say it can't truly substitute because other people can respond to you in a way that you don't imagine. It's for the same reason I think we can say humans can have "relationships" with dogs, but not with trees. The latter would rightly be suspect because dogs can respond to you and provide you with information. A tree cannot. You cannot ultimately provide yourself with new information about yourself.
6218
6219Thanks everyone. -- Resilience?
6220
6221I think that you could say the "self" represents the other the way a word represents an object - by the same process of internalized symbolic representation. To this extent if ones self represents one other person in particular you could at least metaphorically say that the other person can be the self. Not sure if that's what you meant with your speculation.
6222
6223Symbolic Power and Responsibility
6224
6225I think symbolic power is just a more obvious example of how all relationships are symbolic. The responsibility comes from knowing that since you are an object of someone else's ego, take care of them in that capacity since damaging your role in their life constitutes at the very least a disruption to their psyche. This is why all individuation from parents involves some form of conflict, guilt, or at least loss.
6226
6227Of course, problem is, the authority figure ultimately has these same needs and tendencies and experiences a melancholia or a manic defense (call it narcissism if you must) against the same if he cannot find other stable objects (peers, mentors, personal relationships outside the profession).
6228
6229Finally - in the moment, much conflict comes from people wanting to control the symbolic meaning in the moment - who is the subject and who is the object of attention and what does that attention mean.
6230
6231It's always an important moment in therapy when (for most) a patient realizes nobody ever told him he wasn't allowed to ask questions or challenge interpretations. This kind of problem is actually much more therapeutically difficult than someone who is overtly challenging. At least the latter is probably aware they are challenging or resisting, even if not why. The former will resist in some other way, not realize they are doing it, and certainly be further away from the motivation. Unfortunately - people wrapped up in the illusion of symbolic power ("Dr. Knows best") play into therapists ego and own narcissistic needs and its tough not to collude. Indeed some schools of thought such as traditional psychoanalysis insist on it as a fundamental assumption of the interaction.
6232
6233Then again, maybe we have to go our own way and people need different things. One Adlerian joked that he had a patient for years who left because he didn't wear glasses. The patient just always thought of smart Doctors as wearing glasses. Got a doc with specs and soon completed therapy. How far down the rabbit hole does one need to go, why, and to what end? Perhaps a veil of ignorance about some of our motivations is salubrious to the good life.
6234
6235Thanks everyone. -- Resilience?
6236
6237Bingo. I think the ability to repair damaged relationships with other people is where hope/faith that you yourself can recover/change/grow is ordinarily learned.
6238
6239Thanks everyone. -- Resilience?
6240
6241They need at least one resilient other person who is responsive to them. i.e. Someone around whom they can have the experience that would otherwise produce trauma. If you know what you're going through is too much for other people in your life to handle (as in handle with dignity and caring rather than avoidance, minimization and control), it will be too hard for you to handle.
6242
6243Book review of a dystopian novel: 'Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 5th ed.'
6244
6245Well said.
6246
6247Does TLP believe that contemporary art functions as anything other than propaganda?
6248
6249Why, yes, actually. Perfect example.
6250
6251Does TLP believe that contemporary art functions as anything other than propaganda?
6252
6253If we go bladerunner future for sure. I predict we'll go the other way: Smaller, more local, lower energy, lower tech. Maybe I should substitute "hope" for "predict."
6254
6255Jean Claude Guillebaud (1999) - The Tyranny of Pleasure
6256
6257I think that's fair to say. Depending on your framework for understanding the mind this is either (a) tragic or (b) on the other hand if you feel it's tragic it reflects the unmourned losses of childhood - expecting some kind of unrealistic connection.
6258
6259Jean Claude Guillebaud (1999) - The Tyranny of Pleasure
6260
6261Generally in sex people who are acting out are not paying attention to their partner. You can either (a) learn to enjoy playing along, or (b) be more assertive to the point where you are satisfied they are being responsive to you and not bypassing/ignoring your presence.
6262
6263Many people can't tolerate having two egos in the room - especially the bedroom.
6264
6265Jean Claude Guillebaud (1999) - The Tyranny of Pleasure
6266
6267Great post - thanks for the share. Baudrillard in discussing pornography noted that the progression of simulacra works like
6268
6269(1) People assume that pornography refers to the potential for superior sex.
6270
6271(2) People model their sexual behavior to refer to pornography.
6272
6273(3) The function of pornography as simulacra is therefore to hide the fact from ourselves that "ideal sex" doesn't really exist and the ego's involvement in this endeavor is to compare with real or imagined others.
6274
6275Apfelbaum would conclude with "Yeah, but still. What keeps you from enjoying it - or enjoying refusing it? Why does this quandry look like a form of torture?" Why do we spend most of our lives torturing ourselves and others?
6276
6277His typical answer is guilt and shame. For those book worms out there this debate centers on whether you believe the manic defense is real or not (i.e. whether someone is running away from something or toward something is either absolute or relative.). A more neutral approach might be the ego wants stimulation, and any stimulation will do. The reliability of getting the stimulation we need in decreasing reliability seems to be (1) hurting ourselves, (2) convincing others to hurt us, (3) convincing others to delight us, (4) enjoying ourselves.
6278
6279Does TLP believe that contemporary art functions as anything other than propaganda?
6280
6281It wouldn't surprise me, but propaganda might be a bit strong. If you follow that (1) modern culture is consumer culture, consumerism. (2) Modern art reflects modern culture. (3) Art reflects cosumerism.
6282
6283The best art would be one that subtly reveals the fact that art is designed to hide the fact that art is about branding/consumerism and do it non-cynically.
6284
6285I'm still missing something that I can't find...
6286
6287That sounds different than how you first described them. If you enjoy your fantasies what makes you think you have to stop having them? I just don't agree that you have to do anything with your life that you're not doing right now, assuming you're not hurting anyone, breaking laws, and that you are enjoying yourself.
6288
6289Two possible psychoanalytical interpretations:
6290
6291You are using these issues to draw attention toward yourself. It doesn't seem like what you really want is attention because it's hidden beneath the fact that you are talking about painful or seemingly undesirable issues.
6292
6293The more you can admit what you want is attention, the more you can go get it in a desirable way - as opposed to living a life that is a thinly veiled invitation for a father figure to yell at you to get your shit together.
6294
6295Here's the second possibility:
6296
6297Generally, drawing aggression toward the self is a bait-and-switch for hostility which is more honestly directed toward someone else. The self-aggression helps preserve a connection with this person. You're getting something out of passive hostility. In this interaction right here what you are getting out of it is attention, people trying to help, the ability to downplay such help, etc. etc. Who do you hate that you still have a dishonestly close relationship with?
6298
6299And of course, the bonus 3rd interpretation:
6300
6301I wonder why you wrote this original post when you did? Think about what made you do it right now at this time in your life - not last week or tomorrow. If you can answer this question you'll know a lot more about yourself than the content of the original post itself.
6302
6303From Agents to Objects: Sexist Attitudes and Neural Responses to Sexualized Targets
6304
6305Good one!
6306
6307I'm still missing something that I can't find...
6308
6309Find someone you admire and emulate their ethics and motivations.
6310
6311If you can't find someone you admire, go to therapy and talk about what's happening for you in the present moment, including your thoughts and feelings about your therapist.
6312
6313Fantasies are about attention. First, why can't you enjoy your fantasies? Instead, you use them to draw negative attention to yourself from people on the internet. Second - since you want attention anyway, best admit that fact and go about trying to get it directly from real people in your life. Tell them what's up and see what they say.
6314
6315Once you get more realistic attention in your real world relationships, your fantasies and "narcissism" will disappear.
6316
6317Heady audio recordings for your holiday listening pleasure.
6318
6319Thanks for this, by the way.
6320
6321If Alone is still alive, his fingers must have hurt bad to write something on the election campaign.
6322
6323I'm not sure. He rarely wrote about truly mainstream issues. I don't know about his logic, but the reason I don't write about headlines and psychology on my blog is that (1) Mainstream issues are saturated with coverage already, (2) Psychological insight is easier to impart when you aren't dealing with something so close to people's ego.
6324
6325In other words, people are highly invested in things like their politics, religion, etc. It's easier to demonstrate / get through to people by talking about smaller issues which don't immediately trigger their defenses to defcon 1.
6326
6327It's hard to get people to realize most of their political beliefs are about virtue signaling and emotional loyalties. Much easier to show them they hate/love a commercial because it challenges/strokes their ego, respectively.
6328
6329Derick Almena On Oakland Fire That Killed 36: 'I'm Not Going To Answer These Questions?
6330
6331Yeesh. It's a natural place to be defensive at a moment like this, to be in denial even. He wouldn't be on TV if he didn't want attention. But what he asked for was not sincere forgiveness, but to be acknowledged for good intentions.
6332
6333A saner person would have released a statement offering condolences to the victims families amidst this tragedy. A sane and good person would have also probably said "...and I am committed to cooperating with the investigation."
6334
6335I think we have here a loon who likes to be known as generous and big hearted.
6336
6337He'd gladly offer himself up for punishment, as long as we all agreed he was a great guy for doing so - and assure him he hadn't done anything wrong.
6338
6339From Agents to Objects: Sexist Attitudes and Neural Responses to Sexualized Targets
6340
6341Not so sure about this.
6342
6343The gravamen of the article in my mind (word recall surface level procedure aside) is that objectification is correlated with similar brain activity to dehumanization. This is the (false) point the study-scrappers and science bloggers will pick up on. "Don't objectify your partner, it's dehumanizing!" Strikes me as neuromania (a neologism referring to an obsession with explaining phenomena by appeal to fMRI's).
6344
6345Either way you slice it, whether you want to acquire or to destroy another ego, each solution requires conquest. The empathic process and the attribution of agency are better associated with idealization and identification.
6346
6347Stay away from cognitive neuroscience. It's full of robots who think they are people. You can tell because they think you're a robot - don't worry it's not your fault, it's your brain - see look at this fMRI...
6348
6349The term "Hostile Sexism" comes from earlier work by one of the authors. She is quoting a tool she came up with herself and building upon further work. Ambivalent Sexism Theory (Glick & Fiske, 1996)
6350
6351It teaches one other awesome message: it doesn't actually matter what I do, only what people think of me.
6352
6353I don't think there is a resolution to the contradiction. An appeal to roles, while ordinary and common, shifts personal responsibility to a concept which is poorly defined, fluid, and as often as not used on purpose as a bludgeon for the very things the article is opposing (criticism, contempt, defensiveness and stonewalling).
6354
6355It teaches one other awesome message: it doesn't actually matter what I do, only what people think of me.
6356
6357Favorite part: "In truth, you want them to do something only because you want them to-- which is fine. So say it that way: "Put that down." That's it. Teach them they have to do what you say because you said it, period."
6358
6359This kind of article inspired me to blog. Taking something trite from pop-psych like Gottman's "four horsemen" model and adding a bit of profundity to it - to show how much we all are always contemptuous, dismissive, defensive and critical.
6360
6361What Gottman definitely misses and TLP possibly misses is the inherent contradictions in the given admonitions. For example, the example of "teach them to do what you say because you said it, period" could be indistinguishable from stonewalling - being unwilling to discuss something or provide reasons for it.
6362
6363Now of course there are caveats, don't go there you're too smart for that, like the fact that the final example was about a four year old while the stonewalling advice was evidently about an adolescent or teen.
6364
6365Who are you? Im Ramsay, of course.
6366
6367There is a difference between expressing ones feelings about some event and describing the mental process which is happening when one considers such an event.
6368
6369I think you're still hearing ego as bad, which I am not saying.
6370
6371The ego is most certainly that part of the human personality which remembers, plans, considers, etc. Imagination can be either conscious or unconscious, but in your illustration this is also definitely an ego function.
6372
6373Who are you? Im Ramsay, of course.
6374
6375The ego is classically viewed as that part of the mind which coordinates your motivational systems ("unconscious") with reality and other people. The more fully someone has realized their psychological potential the more they are consciously aware of their motivations and are able to make constructive choices to satisfy them.
6376
6377The ego also contains internal representations of external objects (people, things, etc.). Emotional experiences with these external objects provide exciting stimulation and healthful support to the psyche (help you become a person and keep your shit together) and are represented internally to maintain a sense of consistency in the absence of the thing itself.
6378
6379An ego object is something you have invested attention and emotional energy in which creates a part of your sense of self, fixed in a web of connections to people, places, things and ideas from the outside world which are represented in your mind.
6380
6381You can't empathize with people you don't know since they are absent and empathy involves identifying how someone is actually feeling in your presence. You can gin up emotions by imagining someone in a given situation, but this is a purely solipsistic exercise about your ego, not about their ego - which you are not experiencing or responding to since you can't because it is not there in your presence. Now of course since everyone has the same basic emotional material to work with we can make a great many accurate imaginary predictions and these do indeed allow us help each other out.
6382
6383Principles of universal love are great - but don't mistake caring about the principle (as in having a principle which means something about you) for caring about the individual (which means experiencing with your senses and being moved by what you see and hear). When people conflate the two they start making bad decisions for other people to tickle their ego attachment to the principle.
6384
6385I guess I'd just say when we talk about morals we are first and foremost talking about moral sentiments. These are feelings about other people. The question "how should people feel about each other?" seems to me an obvious distraction from the more basic question "How do people actually feel about each other?" and "what exactly do we mean when say we have a feeling about somebody else?"
6386
6387Who are you? Im Ramsay, of course.
6388
6389It depends on what you mean by Ego, I suppose. I do not mean this in the Buddhist or spiritual way. I mean this in the psychoanalytical way, which is different. In rejoinder to your rebuttal "humanity" is a concept. To be rigorous it is a metaphysical "set." The set of all humans. It cannot be an object of attachment because it is not an object. It represents objects. At best, you can be attached to the concept, which is a linguistic object, a sign. I don't disagree that very spiritual and awake people have an expansive sense of universality, or whatnot. but what they care about is the concept, not the person, because they don't know the person. That doesn't meant the concept is bad, or that one shouldn't be attached to it. It is quite ordinary and essential to be attached to transcendental concepts. But they go wrong as often as they go well.
6390
6391My position is that, in reality, people generally switch between arguments of "it's for the common good" versus "it's the right thing to do" very fluidly. And they do it for their own reasons, and their own reasons are about their ego.
6392
6393Saying all this is no justification for anything. For instance, that I don't care about the price of tea in china does not mean that I therefore think it's OK to bomb china. The "other side of the hand" in Buddhist terms here would similarly mean that one can't really hate someone you don't know, either. Hate is a form of caring. Not care as in love, but care as in interest/attention/attachment.
6394
6395People can't "care" (love) a person they have never met anymore than they can "hate" a person they haven't met. But they sure can project.
6396
6397Who are you? Im Ramsay, of course.
6398
6399I do love philosophy, it's just that applied philosophy tends to assume, in my opinion, that people are different than they are. It becomes a way to avoid reality instead of analyzing it.
6400
6401I wish I could answer your question more directly and I don't mean to dissemble, but it's complicated. For example, sometimes people don't put their money where their mouth is because of (to use the popular vernacular) low self esteem. In my school of thougnt, Ego Analysis, you'd call this "not feeling entitled to your experience." For instance, most people know and would agree that giving a lot of positive recognition is both beneficial for others and also makes you a more powerful and respected person in the business world - leave notes on people's desks, write thank you notes, etc. Yet almost nobody does it. Why? Well, it either seems like (a) they don't really deserve it, or (b) they wouldn't really take you seriously anyway. I think people just don't take themselves seriously.
6402
6403Not taking these simple actions isn't a compensation, it's an avoidance of conflicting feelings of shame and guilt which counterpoise the desires to contribute and be significant.
6404
6405So I would say it depends: Sometimes people don't actually care, but often times they don't feel like their concern would matter to anyone. In the latter case I suppose you could say virtue signaling is a sort of compensation for low self esteem. After all, if you just did it and felt awesome about it you could enjoy sharing it, or not, as the situation called for.
6406
6407?Power Posing? Co-author: ?I Do Not Believe That ?Power Pose? Effects Are Real?
6408
6409People shouldn't try to be confident. If you want that, it means you want to hide your insecurities. Instead you should target enjoying yourself, which completely kills the need to self monitor and act.
6410
6411Enjoy yourself. It's later than you think.
6412
6413Who are you? Im Ramsay, of course.
6414
6415Well, I don't know if I can answer your question philisophically, but it seems to me that people use different moral positions such as utilitarianism or universalism at different times to serve their own purposes. I said what I said because in some way I suspected that Saiserit was demonstrating a sort of Chomskian point that America is a f'd up place that uses my tax dollars to torture people and in some way I'm responsible for that. I don't much believe anybody who says they care about vicarious responsibility.
6416
6417For instance, in the environmentalist movement: Anyone who isn't purchasing wasy less than they can afford and consuming much less energy than is convenient, in my book, doesn't really care about environmental issues - all claims to truth about what is really going on aside.
6418
6419I feel more effective as a person if I limit the things I claim to care about to those things I'm willing to do something about. To matter is only ever to matter to someone. Yes, you can learn to matter to yourself, but that's neither here nor there. Everyone has an ego. And every ego has objects of attachment which are very important to it. To claim that someone I've never met is one of those objects is poppycock. What those who trot out these arguments are doing is actually attacking an existing object of my ego (in the Chomskian case, my filial love of my country). Just like a bad mother-in-law belittling her daughter. There is nothing to say. You could try saying "I love her (or my country) despite it's flaws." They will only say "Aha! You admit it/she is flawed!"
6420
6421The best answer is simply "I like my country." Or "I love my wife."
6422
6423There is nothing wrong with helping strangers, there is nothing virtuous about virtue signaling, and anyone who actually cares about other people can easily use 100% of their time and energy on their immediate friends, family, community and perhaps one project/career in life. If anyone has a lot of time left for hand-wringing I'd be suspicious. Most causes are compensations for a lack of effectiveness at being constructive elsewhere in life.
6424
6425We're all virtue signaling nonstop and we can't help it
6426
6427You got it. Sometimes I'm amazed how disappointing it is when my favorite restaurant is out of the sandwich I go there for. Trite, but that's life. Freud's primary process means we represent an object and that representation can become more emotionally charged than the thing itself.
6428
6429It's the toughest thing in the world in these social situations to answer how hard you really tried - or whether you're playing a game called "boo-hoo - look how hard i tried."
6430
6431The key is to expect resistance. If you're going to change, you're going to encounter resistance. And you will have to push and push until you demonstrate you have the stronger psyche. Then congratulations - lesser people will spend the rest of their lives screwing with you to test your mettle.
6432
6433"The truth hurts, that's how you know it's true" -- I need your opinion
6434
6435...and don't forget, if nothing else, remember that the more defensive people are the more it means something about them, not about you, unless your intention is to make them the negative subject of a conversation.
6436
6437"The truth hurts, that's how you know it's true" -- I need your opinion
6438
6439This can be very confusing. If "trusting your gut" is not enough for you, ask yourself if he lets the conversation be positively about you and your interests when you are together. Does he encourage, or at least allow, you to express your perspective? If he doesn't allow you to be the positive center of attention, I suggest being more assertive.
6440
6441The key to this is to expect resistance. That's what throws most people off. expect to take three laps on any point of assertiveness. (i.e. Yes! No! Yes! No! Yes!!!!) Resistance shows you are pushing on their psyche and are close to a change in the relationship.
6442
6443These things you are imagining or obsessing about are unconscious fantasies about attention - usually negative attention. Consider them a substitute for the positive recognition you really want (e.g. you are your own person and would like others to recognize you for who you are.)
6444
6445When you start imagining a negative reaction this is a precursor to acting in a way which anticipates and then causes the reaction you are imagining. Imagine excitedly sharing something, then excitedly share it, if the listener doesn't pay attention - you can say
6446
6447"Hey, I'm excited about this and was hoping for a little more enthusiasm!"
6448
6449or
6450
6451"Listen to me, I'm excited about this!"
6452
6453or even
6454
6455"I can't tell if you're distracted or ignoring me, but I was hoping you'd pay attention."
6456
6457"The truth hurts, that's how you know it's true" -- I need your opinion
6458
6459You bet. Your dad wants you to respond to him. You want your dad to respond to you. It's an ordinary desire. Gotta be assertive enough to do it. If you do it a few times your relationship will change for ever.
6460
6461We're all virtue signaling nonstop and we can't help it
6462
6463Expectation is a kind of tension we seek to resolve. If you expect people to not enjoy your company it isn't just an "irrational belief." It's a motivated fantasy.
6464
6465Who are you? Im Ramsay, of course.
6466
6467I don't struggle mutch with vicarious responsibility, nor do I pretend to care overmuch about people I haven't met and have no relationship with.
6468
6469Who are you? Im Ramsay, of course.
6470
6471This would have been even better had it been narrated with a brady-bunch television split screen phone call scene.
6472
6473"The truth hurts, that's how you know it's true" -- I need your opinion
6474
6475Thanks for saying that - at least I know you read it!
6476
6477We're all virtue signaling nonstop and we can't help it
6478
6479That's not true. Some people vice-signal. Others desperately need you to know how little they care about your opinion and will take every opportunity to show you that. ;) That's the hard part to admit which prevents change.
6480
6481You need recognition of your ego to maintain sanity, let alone happiness. Growth is to do it more directly - like telling someone its good to see them, becuase it is good to see them, and you hope they see that you mean it, and that it reaches them.
6482
6483Is the concept of "social skills" ruining our ability to socialize?
6484
6485Yeah, it annoys me. The temptation hides the customer from the incite that he is doing what he is doing on purpose to get negative attention. "But no, I really want positive attention!" No - you want attention, period, and will settle for what you can get. And negative attention + an ebook is still cheaper.
6486
6487In the event you ever find yourself in a similar situation... here is what to tell the shrink:
6488
6489Great thanksgiving find. Listen to it every year, but this time around would have forgotten without your share. Thanks!
6490
64912008 predictions: "more protectionism, not less"? "Internet control"? "rise of nation-state", "clearer division between American and 'illegal immigrant'"?
6492
6493Yeah Graber and I have different politics but I think most of Debt is sound. He doesn't delve as much into anarchism and does a good job of portraying a few fundamental blindspots people have about their relationship to money and debt.
6494
6495It would be hard to imagine holding your head high at a cocktail party and saying: "Oh, I don't pay my mortgage any more. I have not intent to." It obviously invalidates a great deal of other peoples sense of importance. This is the curse of the sociopath. They can cut right through the bullshit, but they cut out the feeling - other than a kind of cynical, aggressive dominance. Sure you can pretend to be a doctor when you're not, but you can't really pretend to enjoy carrying on the family tradition of being doctors if you didn't actually go to med school...and killed your family.
6496
6497James Howard Kunstler fantasizes that the next crash will happen when an internet meme spreads to not pay your student loans on a given day.
6498
64992008 predictions: "more protectionism, not less"? "Internet control"? "rise of nation-state", "clearer division between American and 'illegal immigrant'"?
6500
6501I'd mostly agree with you. My recommended reading on this is Nietzsche's expose of guilt in the geneology of morals, David Graber's Debt - The First 5000 years, and Lazaretto's Making of the Endebted Man.
6502
6503All are available as free, legal PDF download online.
6504
6505"The truth hurts, that's how you know it's true" -- I need your opinion
6506
6507You're right, it could be a form of recognition not about status (it could be negative recognition). We don't know how the dad feels about putting down his son. Maybe he hates himself for how compulsively he judges other people? Maybe he secretly resents his son for being more hip and expressive, for rejecting his own style as a model, and is desperately hungry for some attention in a family system that otherwise denies his attempts to initiate his point of view unless he is being negative.
6508
6509What is objectively true, in my read, is that the father dissed his son to get validation about his perspective, which he was also hiding. ("I don't like my sons haircut and resent the kind of attention seeking it represents." Or maybe even the truth is that the father wants more attention to and hates himself for being jealous of his son.)
6510
6511Hell, the son may have gotten the haircut in order to get negative attention from his father - especially if he knew his dad wouldn't like it. Young people asserting their ego in new ways threatens their parents more than parents would like to admit. Particularly because parents are pretending they don't need ego support from their children.
6512
6513Pedantically, I would answer your question: Why is their miscommunication in the first place? with the response that people don't want to communicate - they want recognition of their ego - which they will have trouble getting if they can't do it in a straightforward way, relatively unclouded by superego effects. There is this big mystery in CBT about why people distort reality. I think the answer is quite simple: People distort reality to show you their ego.
6514
6515Ego-analysis takes the ego's position as relative, not absolute or fixed, and you try to interpret from the side of the ego - rather than making yourself a superego figure or thinking you can interpret from the side of "reality" per say. This is key, becuase the ego is why people are distorting reality in the first place. If you don't get that you will tend to ignore the ego message right in front of you - which the other probably lured you into doing by saying something so obviously distorted as to not escape notice.
6516
6517So this would mean not interpreting the OP's text as his attempts to hide his anger at his father, or to avoid the joy of sexually humiliating him by being a more attractive contemporary man (both which sound awfully bad, and are likely to be taken by the superego as criticisms - which they may actually be, and were probably the intended result of post the post, and the original problem) and instead interpret from the side of the weak ego - the ego that couldn't say "Hey! I'm listening jerk-wad. I like my haircut just fine, thank you very much." - the kind of ego that could convince his father an apology and reparations were merited. I.E. The OP is not sure he is entitled to his perspective of the experience and is checking with us. Which we again circle back to the superego which tempts people to say such a behavrior is weak, irrational or defensive - meaning you should just be ashamed of yourself for doing it and probably will hide the fact that you're doing it.
6518
6519"The truth hurts, that's how you know it's true" -- I need your opinion
6520
6521I think what you're saying makes sense and agree that it is not necessarily the case that all arguments devlove. Quite the contrary - I'd say peoples inability to tell the truth from their own perspective is the limitation.
6522
6523Back to the OP, a father who subtly puts down his own children to make himself look better has a mountain to climb to truly change this. If the son is focused on accomplishing this goal for his father he is bypassing the much more obvious solution of getting his dad to knock it off by being the more powerful ego in the room. His father may or may not ever change - it would be a heroic feat to change this quality about himself through long term growth or spiritual transformation. The only reason not make your dad sit up and take notice of how he effects you is guilt and shame.
6524
6525If narcissism is a response to shame, then what is everyone so ashamed of?
6526
6527I think it has always been a problem. The modern solution has been to take mimetic competition and turn it metaphysical through reproducible quasi-identical products. Also, in the past most cultures had a variety of institutional roles which promised at least some attention vs todays idividualism.
6528
65292008 predictions: "more protectionism, not less"? "Internet control"? "rise of nation-state", "clearer division between American and 'illegal immigrant'"?
6530
6531Like a jubilee or default?
6532
6533"The truth hurts, that's how you know it's true" -- I need your opinion
6534
6535Of course it hurts. It's perfectly normal to be hurt this way, and it's perfectly normal to think you shouldn't be so easily offended - the latter part is why people never get past this. Your Dad was either joking or being a dick - either way putting his ego ahead of yours.
6536
6537We all want recognition - which should not be misconstrued with validation. You could say we want to notice that people see us as we are. When people tell us they don't like what they see, it is a blow to the ego - a form of negative recognition.
6538
6539Realize that people do this to see their own ego recognized. It's unfortunate but, its up to the person with the strongest psyche to decide how the game ends. You can turn it into a game and say jokingly, if you can manage humor, "You're just jealous because I still have hair!" or something like that. Expect resistance, it means you're winning.
6540
6541Optionally, you can always go the high route: "I can see you don't like my hair cut. I still like it anyway." Anyone who doesn't shut up after that is up to something fishy because of their own problems. Shut that shit down or at least enjoy being the stronger person in silence.
6542
65432008 predictions: "more protectionism, not less"? "Internet control"? "rise of nation-state", "clearer division between American and 'illegal immigrant'"?
6544
6545My one criticism: The hoarding of bullion is not analogous to accumulating wealth. The new version is the ability to accumulate debt. Nations which can convincingly hold the most debt will be the most "powerful." Money itself is debt (unless you view gold as a commodity, long story).
6546
6547This is all to say that I disagree with the inflationary prediction of TLP and many others. I am a deflationist. My reasoning is that underlying the economy is the productivity of our energy resources, which is decreasing its marginal utility.
6548
6549Otherwise, spot on.
6550
6551Are you a feminist? What do you think of feminism?
6552
6553See, that's the ticket. The concept of the patriarchy is a metaphysical construct which obscures the rather ordinary act of blaming men. Not only does it prevent direct conflict (which you'd have to win or lose - I'll let you guess how that would go) but it elevates an ordinary grievance to the status of a moral crusade.
6554
6555Are you a feminist? What do you think of feminism?
6556
6557A delightful way to live!
6558
6559Are you a feminist? What do you think of feminism?
6560
6561I can't speak about individual cases but in general everyone has insecurities at some point - given that humans are aware of the objective fact as children that they are smaller, weaker, and psychologically less resilient than older children and adults. It's currently fashionable to pretend you don't have inferiority feelings at all ages - and many people adopt this strategy early. The most popular way to hide them is to blame them on someone else. If you want what someone else has but can't quite rally to go for it directly, one generally compensates with useless or counterproductive behavior.
6562
6563I do like being a man.
6564
6565Are you a feminist? What do you think of feminism?
6566
6567If you take away the fancy rhetoric of privilege theory you have bold faced scapegoating. Few feminists can reach the point of intellectual honesty to say "I blame men for my problems." This conceals from themselves the obvious fact that they feel inferior to men and they hide this fact with blaming, controlling behavior.
6568
6569Some interesting questions to ask purported feminists include: (1) Do you blame men for your problems? (2) Do you like being a woman?
6570
6571When listening to a youtube feminist, lets say, always remember: While men are the cognitive topic of conversation, the woman speaking is the subject of attention. What is she using the attention of the listener for?
6572
6573If narcissism is a response to shame, then what is everyone so ashamed of?
6574
6575The desire to be loved and to be the positive center of other people's attention.
6576
6577Introvert or narcissist?
6578
6579Damn, guys - thanks! I appreciate your encouragement, and I'm trying to find a way to pay it forward in life - whether that means a career change or a side project.
6580
6581Introvert or narcissist?
6582
6583Thanks for saying that. I may just go the literary route at this point in life. It's that or gorilla psychological warfare!
6584
6585"It's You"
6586
6587Good point, but what if I enjoy crushing my enemies and seeing them driven before me, to quote noted philosopher Conan The Barbarian?
6588
6589Introvert or narcissist?
6590
6591It depends on how you use attention. Normal people use it to stroke their ego. Narcissists try to control other peoples attention to conform with a distorted (grandiose or rigid or whatever) ego ideal.
6592
6593For those who are acting like they don't want attention one has to ask "How hard have they tried to get me to notice that they don't want attention?" Avoiding is different than not caring. Nobody who didn't care would be writing, reading or surfing for articles about being an introvert - they would be enjoying whatever interests captured their fancy.
6594
6595Either way - contemplating the quesiton "Am I an introvert or a narcissist?" is objectively an act of self focused attention. Self-focused attention is a substitute for ego-recognition from others. If you find yourself doing a lot of it, it means you need to go tell people what they hell is going on and take in their response. Then let them do the same. Spend more time doing this and your life will get better.
6596
6597"It's You"
6598
6599Alright, I'll take the bait!
6600
6601It's a language trap. I'm not saying you shouldn't blame people. I think it's useful to know what's going on when you do. When you know what's going on it's easier to take stronger steps than blaming, such as confronting.
6602
6603"It's You"
6604
6605That's at the heart of it, yes, but it's about the process by which we judge things are ok or not. People have a sense that somehow "I won't abide with genital mutilation" somehow makes you less entitled to take action than "Genital mutilation is wrong." I say quite the opposite, it is much, much stronger. Agreeing something is wrong - metaphysical claims aside - helps people manage their anxiety about not feeling entitled to directly oppose others through strength of will and disguises impotence and lack of activity.
6606
6607"It's You"
6608
6609Well, we'd have to be rigorous about what you mean by a problem and not equivocate.
6610
6611Designing a structural steel member to span a given gap with a given load is a procedure. Distracting oneself on facebook all day such that the procedure is not completed within the deadline and then lying about having too much work to do is a problem. I would suggest that the negative attention / scolding this results in is the intended goal of an unproductive need for recognition. Furthermore, the belief in ADD is a way to exploit recognition and to be deployed as an additional quest for attention. Furthermore, the ones who invented the concept of ADD and set aside previous means of explanation did it in order to rearrange the explanatory word salad of reality and at least in part gain recognition by use of their concept.
6612
6613I would suggest the biggest project opportunity in your life is that the people around you are not even trying to solve problems. They are creating problems in order to exploit attention.
6614
6615If you want a life with fewer problems, addressing this issue is the task at hand.
6616
6617"It's You"
6618
6619I am assuming a lot, yes, and I'm doing it to make a point. I don't know why she did what she did. Hell, I don't even know THAT she did what she says she did. All I know is that she was saying what she was saying which meant she wanted recognition - someone to listen and respond. My assertion is that she is pretending to us and at least in part to herself that this isn't what she wants.
6620
6621Three sources I recommend you consider include: Alfred Adler's work on the inferiority complex and negative attention; Eric Berne's concept of negative strokes; and Edmund Bergler's concept of Psychic Masochism. You could check out the work of Peter Michaelson for a modern take on the latter. I acknowledge it is a stretch, but I do indeed mean what I said. In this view "quirks of personal history" must be distinguished from Sartre's factitcity in order to see how the ego distorts reality in order to identify itself.
6622
6623I'm not saying there aren't problems. I am saying problems are for something - they are for recognition of the self in the presence of real and imagined others.
6624
6625There is a deep conviction in most peoples hearts that if they finally told the truth, nobody would listen. And it's true, they wouldn't - because they want what you want, which is for other people to recognize them.
6626
6627"It's You"
6628
6629Culture being Ok is different than one being Ok with culture. I'm not Ok with culture at all, but that's all about me, and I intend to change it by defeating others, not by "solving problems." The world, as a whole, is the way it is on purpose with some ignorance and folly sprinkled in. Go forth and crush your enemies. They are adults - they can handle it.
6630
6631"It's You"
6632
6633I think he means it more radically: Like, you don't have problems, you do problems. Your problems are you and you have them in order to draw attention to yourself. People like problems like dogs like bones - in order to gnaw on them. This perspective requires admitting that people, including oneself, like negative attention. Seeing yourself badly is not as bad as not seeing yourself.
6634
6635Amy Schumer fucked the cabbie on purpose for negative attention. Then she told her mom for more attention, then she told the story for more attention, and she'll do what's next for more attention. Unless she can admit she did it all on purpose to get attention. This is Nietzche's radical view of the eternal return. All of my life was on purpose "I will it thus."
6636
6637"What can I do about my problem" is your problem. Contemplating your "problem" is a fantasy about an ideal state of affairs for the self. http://theblondbeast.com/psychology/how-do-i-really-feel-the-worst-question-ever/
6638
6639Your anti-Trump Facebook post, in 5 acts
6640
6641She's trying to generate a response in her environment which provides recognition of her ego, which has been shocked by damage to one of her objects - namely, her constallation of emotions about her political identifications.
6642
6643This is a perfectly ordinary process. The only thing which is odd is that she would do it in a public format where one would expect negative feedback instead of support. This would lead me to conclude she is also trying to generate negative reactions which validate her hatred of the right.
6644
6645She is like a wounded lover - one who blames you for damaging their ego.
6646
6647How does our personal sense of power relate to our conception of the world at large?
6648
6649Your conception of the world at large is the work of your ego, by which you expand your sense of self through your identifications. In this case liberals have overidentified with their politics - largely because they have already destroyed everything else such as their families, churches and communities.
6650
6651That last part was about my ego, of course.
6652
6653"It's You"
6654
6655Consider your reaction to the following:
6656
6657Your problem isn't TLP, it is your ego attachment to complaining about culture, or your attachment to feeling good about not blaming people, or something like that. Culture is fine the way it is, as is the entire world. Really.
6658
6659"As part of the penalty, she accepted a reprimand and pledged not to give more online psychological advice."
6660
6661Hear, hear!
6662
6663"As part of the penalty, she accepted a reprimand and pledged not to give more online psychological advice."
6664
6665In my opinion public mental health gurus fall into the trap of not giving qualifications/disclaimers in order to express their ego. They want their advice to mean something about them. Any distortion, exaggeration or exclusion or reality is a sign which points to desired recognition of the ego.
6666
6667Your anti-Trump Facebook post, in 5 acts
6668
6669There is a difference between a narcissistic injury and an ordinary shock to the ego.
6670
6671The latter involves damage to one of the egos objects. In this case that would be simply when some self esteem is lost by having your side lose.
6672
6673A narcissistic injury is one which exposes the gap between an ego-ideal (grandiose self) and a realistic sense of one self. In this case the ego-ideal of the left seems to be moral righteousness or perfectionism. The blow from the right has been not only discounting that ego-ideal, but also invalidating the response. Those who are labeled "cucks" still play into the notion of a morally perfect ego ideal and therefore don't invalidate it. They just argue about who is morally perfect, which becomes a kind of game. Most of the alt right does not care if their opponents think they are bad, which is the appropriate response when someone is playing a game of "who's perfect, you or me?" "Fuck - you. Nobody's perfect, but especially you."
6674
6675The solution to an ordinary "blow to the ego" is to repair the damaged object (find a way to live with the loss and focus on the positive) or find a new object of attachment (change). Their is no solution to a narcissistic injury other than "undoing" or destroying the offender - or endless repetition of the same. Doubling down.
6676
6677If you ever want to send a narcissist through the roof tell them the way you're handling this makes you look really bad right now.
6678
6679Your anti-Trump Facebook post, in 5 acts
6680
6681It's hard to tell whether we believe something because it is true or we use facts for the benefit of our ego.
6682
6683Act 1: Your political affiliation is an object of your ego. You deploy it in life to draw positive attention to yourself and differ negative attention toward others. You mistake these experiences for reality.* Act 2: A new state of affairs obtains which contradicts the distortions by which you draw attention to yourself, cutting off a valuable source of self esteem. Shock to the ego produces collapse to a reduced level of functioning. Act 3: Resume distorting the new normal to your previous ends. Act 4: Return to the well, hoping once more for the validation you had lost. Act 5:
6684
6685As far as objectivity is concerned, I think society will thrive so long as those members who are most constructive get positive recognition and serve as good examples, while those who are useless or destructive receive negative attention and serve as bad examples. It will decline when this virtuous cycle is perverted. It's always a problem when people expect unearned recognition, and it's also a problem when people receive unearned recognition. To some extent this reflects a balance between not one, but two ethical norms: Firstness and reciprocity.
6686
6687The Curse of Identity
6688
6689You're right, it is a rhetorical exaggeration. You could say stimulation from other peoples attention is one of (a very few) general forms of stimulation of the ego. Others include fantasy (which is generally about being the subject of some form of attention, or is a fantasy about one's objects, which replicates the effect of real attention), and transformational substances from food to crack which profoundly regulate the way one feels.
6690
6691Broadly speaking - yes. Adequate attention from other people is required in order to form a realistic concept of oneself. When you have other peoples attention you have two general options: (1) Attempt to control and distort their reactions to you in order to validate and conform with a distorted fantasy of who you are, or (2) Tell them the truth and see what happens. Option number two is how people become healthy...assuming they're not in the presence of a narcissist...who is ignoring them...and thereby distorting the information they are receiving about themselves...which then distorts their ability to identify what the hell is going on and makes it hard for them to tell the truth about it and get better.
6692
6693"As part of the penalty, she accepted a reprimand and pledged not to give more online psychological advice."
6694
6695Sure thing. Facts do exist, but what people do with facts is use them as objects of the ego. People distort reality in order to draw attention to their ego. It is not an accident, they do it on purpose. Pretending that they are simply mistaken on a point of fact ignores their motivations, and also likely conceals the motivations of anyone stimulated to correct them and make them see the light, unless they respond by identifying what is actually happening.
6696
6697"The ball is on the table" might describe a state of affairs. "The ball is on the fucking table again!" purports to do so, but draws attention to the fact that the speaker has something to say about it. To respond "it doesn't mean anything that the ball is on the table" might look rational, but seems to me like (at best) a motivated attempt to down-regulate your conversational partners feelings. It also isn't that rational at all, since its a language trap. The response above acknowledges the existence of something we'll call "what it means to you that the ball is on the table" since the rebuttal does not make any sense (refer to reality) unless it exists (some meaning for the ball on the table). So the apparently rational statement is clearly a lie - a motivated distortion of reality.
6698
6699How about: "I can see that you're distressed about the ball being on the table again" approaches rationality and keeps the attentional focus mostly where it began. But this still ignores the fact that the speaker had some motivation in saying what they said that you are not addressing.
6700
6701If your relationships are anything like mine, the truth might be something like "You're distressed about the ball being on the table again. I'd like you to notice that I like the ball on the table, which may be hard for you to hear, and until now I haven't been honest about my desire to put the ball on the table."
6702
6703Even this might not cut it. The truth is probably that I'm aware the issue of the ball being on the table is a power struggle initiated by insecure people. She pretends not to be controlling me by wanting the ball off the table (and therefore managing her sense of inferiority) and I pretend not to notice (and cultivate a fictional sense of moral superiority and having been persecuted)...all about something so stoooopidly irrational. I mean can you believe this chick, just LOOOOOK at how CRAYZZY she is! You know, unlike you and me - nudge nudge - the sane and rational, superior ones. Chicks, man. Chicks...Am I right? Eh?
6704
6705The Curse of Identity
6706
6707Well, that's possible. I do not think people are motivated by making a marginal impact, the term the author uses. I assume most of those who do are using Freud's primary process (partial satisfaction from the representation of an object of desire, rather than the object itself) which you could just call delayed gratification.
6708
6709My solution is in a way to deny the problem. Take the OP's authorship example. I don't think someone who wants to talk about being an author in order to get attention has a problem with not writing. He has a problem with thinking he can't get the attention he needs without some excuse like being an author. Help him make the changes to get the ongoing attention he needs just as-is in the context of his relationships, achieving the object of his desire, at which point he is free to pursue constructive activities, or simply enjoy chewing the fat.
6710
6711It's true in a way that people shouldn't milk "author attention" because it is dishonest or ingenuine. Our critical judgement is distracted by the lie that people like this need us to believe they really intend to be an author. What it distracts us from is their desperate, shameful need for attention. They are lying because they don't feel entitled to ordinary attention, which is also why they will never write a book. Try telling one of these people "I think you're great whether you ever write a book or not" and you will immediately see how un-entitled they feel to have your appreciation. You'll make them see their shame and see that they are already beating themselves up about not being good enough, which is exactly why we are tempted to say they don't deserve what they are asking for in the moment - our attention.
6712
6713You are correct that I read articles like this looking for problems and inconsistencies rather than with the assumption that they contain valuable tips to improve my life. I don't always read this way, but on this site and on these subject matters it is my motivation to try and spot things that bother me and then point them out. I do enjoy it, but also try to provide some value and entertainment in doing so. I like to think it's a fair trade.
6714
6715"As part of the penalty, she accepted a reprimand and pledged not to give more online psychological advice."
6716
6717Big fan of Stefan Molyneux (her husband) to this day - but when I read his (their?) self-help book I was reminded that intellectualizing is an ego defense and I think he overestimates the power of rationality to be a good guide in close personal relationships.
6718
6719His written advice sounds good, but can easily be misapplied. As I remember it from years ago it went something like:
6720
6721If you have a friend or family member who makes you cringe every time they call you - try talking about it in an open way that tells the truth such as:
6722
6723"I don't know why I get sad when I see your number come up." And see what they do. If they turn to helping you and try to reach out, good, if not - they are probably a negative influence in your life and you should trust your gut.
6724
6725This has at least two problems: First, it ignores the fact that everyone has the right to be assertive about what they need in their relationships. People applying this advice might have a significant deficit in assertiveness and may be trying to control or judge other peoples communication style. Second, people who have not been in long term therapy may be massively unclear about how they are saying what they are saying (magic words that don't hide how you actually feel, which may be different than what you say). Saying you are sad is not the same as showing someone how you feel - having the emotion of sadness in their presence which entails vulnerability. If you sound defensive or hostile in saying such things (which is hard not to do, and harder to judge yourself) then it is probably the case that other people are responding to your hostility - in which case their defensiveness or hostility in return makes perfect sense.
6726
6727Anyway, headline is: People who overestimate the power of rationality in close relationships are usually ignoring something, in my opinion. I had a close friend who applied this in his family. It seemed to me he walked his mother into a trap in order to unload on her without guilt feelings by baiting her into a trap which he could then ignore responsibility for laying. I couldn't tell him that of course because the reason he told me was to get my help suppressing his doubt. Is it bar time yet - cuz I need a drink?
6728
6729Still a big fan of Stefan - but in my book he underestimates how much of his worldview is emotional in nature, and his psychological recommendations are evidence I'd point to in this regard. Of course I can make these kind of sweeping remarks about a stranger since I'm not bound by a legal code of ethics. If you want to disown your parents, do so, but if you need to rely on an ebook to deal with your doubts you may want to check with a professional councilor and talk it through first, in person.
6730
6731The Curse of Identity
6732
6733It's complicated. This is swinging in a slightly different direction. Wanting a specific result is different than the general desire for recognition. A lot of people who need a specific response are using that specific response to undo something they are trying to hide to themselves. The most obvious examples are someone who intimidates other people actually feels inferior. Those who simply enjoy intimidating other people don't have a problem with the behavior. They may have other problems, and other people have problems with them, but they are not miserable about intimidating people. I would suggest that nobody wants to work. They want to use work to gain recognition. The more comfortable one is with that the greater the likelihood you can pursue constructive goals with energy.
6734
6735The way this would go is that the desire to dominate or impress women is a reaction against feelings of shame or inferiority. Shame itself is the suppression of the desire to be loved, accepted and taken care of, and dealing with that frees one up to have a new kind of relationship - like actually having fun talking to women and enjoying the way you are together. Trust me - guys who like women and have fun around them have no need for game.
6736
6737The Curse of Identity
6738
6739On the first part, the author is largely aware of attention and the curse of the ego but he is still hiding his motivations through the language of cognitive theory. People do this all over the place and I agree with labeling this behavior as "neuromania." TED talkers are infamous for this - explaining things with MRI's. The other plague of our age is evolutionary psychology.
6740
6741The way the author hides his ego is by using fancy ideas, just like psychoanalysts. There is nothing wrong with that. It can be fun, and language is largely metaphors anyway. But he is indeed doing it and I don't think he is aware of it, because he attributes it to his brain.
6742
6743All of that stuff may be true and real, but the question is what you are using facts for in the moment.
6744
6745I largely agree with your second paragraph but it is a little complex to differentiate the ego as referred to in modern day culture from the self from other metaphors about experience. It is reflective of people who see themselves as divided into parts as opposed to being whole. There are other options for structuring ones time as you note. Berne identifies intimacy, playing games, withdrawl (or enrapture of focused attention on a stimulus or fantasy), etc. It's a little complicated because what Freud referred to as ego includes ones experience of ones body, or what we'd describe today as neurological stimuli you can physically attend to - not merely thoughts and imagination. Indeed experiencing these as distinct processes is evidence of ones level of integration. In this way fantasies are stimulation of the ego, television is stimulation of the ego, drinking alcohol is stimulation of the ego.
6746
6747If you like the mindfulness angle you may enjoy A.H. Almass:
6748
6749The Ego is First and Foremost a Body Ego The ego is first and foremost a body-ego, in the sense that the self-demarcations that form in our consciousness during infancy are based on our sensory experience of our bodies as distinct from other objects. The delusion is taking these body-boundaries to define and limit our sense of who and what we are. On the physical level it is true that each of us has physical boundaries and that this body is separate from that body, but on the level of consciousness these boundaries are permeable. The edges of our bodies do not define where we end and others begin, although if we have this conviction it will feel that way. When we recognize that this experience is a delusion, we see that the ego boundaries we have used to define ourselves are only mental constructs. We realize that we have been holding onto an image of our bodies in order to define ourselves as entities. Facets of Unity, p. 104
6750
6751The author of the OP sees his brain and various functions as distinct from other parts of his personality and accounts for this with novel theories. My assertion is that it is indicative of a certain stage of development of the ego. But then again, as we say in the midwest, whatcha gonna do?
6752
6753The Curse of Identity
6754
6755I don't think you want to escape your desire. If you did, then you wouldn't have your desire. I think people who can't admit they want recognition wind up suppressing it and drawing negative attention to themselves in compulsive ways. If you want recognition and are comfortable with that fact you can go about getting it in constructive ways such as being helpful, entertaining, or pleasant to be around. The way to escape desire is to have the object of your desire. Then you have the object (recognition) and you don't have the desire (lack of recognition). I suspect you are talking about running from the object of your desire, which has the effect of increasing desire.
6756
6757The Curse of Identity
6758
6759I think the one thing missing is that the author thinks there is some escape from the fact that everything we do is designed in part to elicit some form of recognition from our environment. There is no escape except the transcendental. If you accept this as a fact you are left with Nietzsche's conclusion that it is a fraud or Girard's conclusion that this proves God exists, since original sin obviously does.
6760
6761The author falls prey to the assumption of the original psychoanalysts: Given that I know people are trying to stroke their ego with everything they do, I am smart enough to escape, and my response to their behavior has nothing to do with my own disavowed desire, it is of course about them. Gedo, the original great student of the Schizoid condition (the corollary path of narcissism to interested readers here) concluded that many psychoanalysts responded to their newfound awareness by stimulating their ego through introverted narcissistic withdrawal and the fabrication of elaborate reality distorting theories used to compete with each other for status and recognition, and to deny the present moment relationship with their patients.
6762
6763They had not escaped. Identity can be a blessing once you admit what you want and go about getting it more directly.
6764
6765Look also to the conflict between Gedo and Kohut, Freud and Jung, and see if you think you can escape. http://human-nature.com/books/gedo.html
6766
6767The question remains: If you know where you are why would you want to leave?
6768
6769Two books for further reading: Irving Goffman's Presentation of The Self in Everyday Life, and Stigma: Notes on The Management of Spoiled Identity.
6770
6771Identity is only a curse if it's spoiled. I wonder how it gets spoiled?
6772
6773A brief aside on memory
6774
6775An interesting exercise for understanding narrative voice is to consider the question: "Into what kind of listening attention does the voice of the narrator make sense?"
6776
6777As an author, it's useful to consider what kind of relationship this written one is a substitute or a representation of. That's how you understand what relationship you are creating for your readers and in this way how literature can transform.
6778
6779As a reader, it's useful to consider negative reactions as a result of something happening in this (all be it largely imaginary) relationship. What happens to you when you don't want to give someone the response they are looking for?
6780
6781Poetry, and romantic prose, can be seen as a kind of solipsistic experience of the authors emotional world - a kind of emotional world we're being invited to inhabit - much like a parent abiding the inner world of a beloved child.
6782
6783Thus, why you could say of Proust - every word he wrote was (metaphorically) whispered to his mother - and why some have such trouble with his voice.
6784
6785Jordan Peterson's appears to be experiencing an emerging psychosis. See it well it happens.
6786
6787Solidarity from me to Jordan Peterson. I recommend you email his employer with your support.
6788
6789Thoughts on practiced religion/philosophy?
6790
6791I don't know that I have great examples, but just read a book I'd recommend called The Fractured Republic by Yuval Levin which comes to the same conclusion. Personally I think it will be a local backlash against globalization and the internet of everything. Think local organic food production, artisan products, etc. It will become cool to not have a cell phone.
6792
6793Testing. Testing. One, two three? Please respond.
6794
6795thanks for the encouragement!
6796
6797Thoughts on practiced religion/philosophy?
6798
6799The difficult part is what you mean by "genuine." While it is painful to put that word in quotes, most philosophies - including psychological systems, primarily reflect the psychology of those who come up with them. (See Faces in The Clouds for a comparison of psychological systems).
6800
6801For individuals narcissism can be curbed through more realistic and accepting (as opposed to distorting and idealizing) attention. For society I think the options are new types of local institutions or a sudden reduction in our level of technological stimulation - the latter of which creates the distractions which reduce attention to each other.
6802
6803What is the link between narcissism and a cuckolding kink?
6804
6805It shows most clearly that men in this situation have desire for the woman mediated through the role of another. The cuck is using the situation to draw negative attention to himself, while at the same time idolizing a role model who perpetuates his inferiority feelings.
6806
6807http://theblondbeast.com/psychology/psychoanalysis/sexual-envy-a-response-to-the-hotel-concierge/
6808
6809This doesn't appear to have been shared before. Some may find it interesting.
6810
6811I think in general that if one can admit that what they want is recognition and that is at least part of what people spend their time doing then one is in a better situation to assess what is going on with others.
6812
6813In analysis this essentially means that the analyst is not to try and get attention (as much as possible) from the client. Therefore whatever the client does can ultimately be understood as a choice (or habit) about the kind of attention they are drawing to themselves in everyday life.
6814
6815This doesn't appear to have been shared before. Some may find it interesting.
6816
6817That's quite a claim. Would you elaborate? Not everyone experiences them the same, and I have every reason to believe the opposite is also true.
6818
6819This doesn't appear to have been shared before. Some may find it interesting.
6820
6821Oh - and neuromania/darwinitis/statistiphilia are just joke words.
6822
6823Darwinitis - ignoring motivations by explaining things in terms of evolution.
6824Neuromania - ignoring motivations by explaining things in terms of MRI's and neuroscience Statistophilia - ignoring motivations by explaining things in terms of econometrics or dubious statistics
6825
6826The first two I got from professor Raymond Tallis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5baL9oh430
6827
6828This doesn't appear to have been shared before. Some may find it interesting.
6829
6830The reason I try to reframe it is that by understanding our reaction to people who are behaving narcissistically we have a window into their experience - one which almost everyone shuts immediately with their own narcissistic defense which is to shame them for doing it.
6831
6832By and large I agree with you - but consider this: You wouldn't think someone was a narcissist if you enjoyed what they were doing. I'm saying that our own dislike for what they are doing (exasperation, frustration, boredom, feeling ignored, being resentful etc.) is a window into their soul.
6833
6834Also consider that without fail narcissists hate other narcissists and their reason is that the person wants to be the center of attention and doesn't deserve it and this is part of their problem.
6835
6836If someone is enjoying themselves and being exuberant and successful with their behavior and this bothers us - the problem is probably us.
6837
6838This doesn't appear to have been shared before. Some may find it interesting.
6839
6840You're right that the literature can't make up its mind. Since Adler first pointed out the Inferiority/Superiority complex dynamic in his opposition and split from Freud in the original Vienna school this has continued to be a problem. My explanation is that Freud didn't understand shame before he conceptualized the superego in 1923 - after which he spent the rest of his life running from Nazi's and dying of cancer.
6841
6842Much like the existence of the unconscious, which by its very nature if it exists would naturally hide and be invisible, narcissism is a concept which is fraught with conceptual difficulties.
6843
6844This doesn't appear to have been shared before. Some may find it interesting.
6845
6846There's the rub. This is the exact nexus of the problem of understanding the condition.
6847
6848Their problem is they need way more than the average person(...)
6849
6850That's not their problem, that's your problem with their problem.
6851
6852(...)and the wear themselves and everyone around them out by constantly working to extract it.
6853
6854There may be some truth to that, in which case it means that they can't see the impact of their behavior on others, but it could also be a justification for not wanting to give it to someone. They wouldn't have to "extract" it if the recipients want to give it. What are they doing that people don't want to pay attention to them? Trying to hard? Not being subtle? Unaware that they are being desperate, pushy and controlling?
6855
6856There is a difference between being around someone who is good at getting positive attention (they are engaging and charasmatic, riviting story tellers, etc.) and someone who is shit at getting attention and clumsily, constantly failing to do so, and blaming you for it.
6857
6858This doesn't appear to have been shared before. Some may find it interesting.
6859
6860Thanks for the share, but I'd say these three things are the true devils that haunt the world: Darwinitis, Neuromania, and Statistiphilia. All are more prevalent and harmful than anything you'd call malignant narcissism.
6861
6862People can't explain what's in front of them because they are not trying. They are trying to use what is in front of them to draw recognition as a feedback stimulus from their environment which comprises a homeostatic sense of self- and that is all - including this very comment.
6863
6864The trick is to do it in a way which is hopefully, mostly, and usually helpful - and occasionally interesting, entertaining or exciting. And never forget - enjoy yourself, it's later than you think.
6865
6866The author on page 2 cannot see this because he cannot see himself. In his introduction he contrasts between "narcissistic" behavior and "ordinary" behavior. I think his definition is designed to preserve his self image based on defending the assumption that narcissists are doing something bad instead of doing something badly. He describes it as parasitic. This belief is designed to help him hide from himself and others, and to account for his discomfort with his blaming these narcissists for his negative reactions to them. Yes, narcissists are difficult, like playing basketball with someone who keeps missing the pass and blaming you for the throw - or is that the other way around?
6867
6868Narcissists are trying unsuccessfully to do something others are better at: Draw positive attention to the self. What they don't realize is that they are succeeding at and settling for negative attention which they themselves are creating based on their unacknowledged sense of inferiority. Their sense of inferiority comes from the fact that they can't enjoy doing what it seems to them like other people do so naturally. What keeps it hidden is other peoples denial of the fact that this is what they themselves are doing. The reason they deny it is their own unacknowledged shame...I wonder what happens next?
6869
6870Testing. Testing. One, two three? Please respond.
6871
6872Haha - the funny thing is I'm not sure the "they" know what they are doing. Probably something clever or intuitive marketers stumble into as much as anything I'd characterize as purposefully manipulative. Sometimes I wouldn't be surprised if it was instinct or the result of testing as much as expert knowledge. Hard to do more than speculate on the motivations of the person who is hiding. The game is always: How do I direct positive attention toward my product or brand without asking for it?
6873
6874Testing. Testing. One, two three? Please respond.
6875
6876Good answer!
6877
6878Testing. Testing. One, two three? Please respond.
6879
6880Feel free to PM in the future instead of posting a thread. I posted a new article yesterday, thanks for asking. It's about a Jockey commercial which popped up while I was scouring zerohedge for doomer chow. Hope you enjoy.
6881
6882What are the differences between men and women?
6883
6884This one is related: https://egoanalysisessays.wordpress.com/2016/09/09/on-the-capacity-to-feel-unempathic/
6885
6886He has a technical article from the 70's called "Ego Analysis and the Relativity of Defense" which lays it out in theoretical precision, but I'd read his general articles to get a sense of his vibe.
6887
6888What would you want the next generation to know?
6889
6890Less.
6891
6892Just kidding. If there are two things I could pass on they would be: How to be more resilient in a world of decreasing productivity and a conscious awareness of how unconscious shame shapes most peoples actions. I guess I view both as freedom. I think it's unlikely we can help the next generation be better off economically than we are today, so hopefully we could give them something else - like not needing to be.
6893
6894The Attention Economy - Controlling Our Choices
6895
6896You may like a new book coming out by Dmitri Orlov called unwinding the technosphere. He has some interesting applications of Ted Kaczynski-esque anti-technology / sociology of technology stuff. I'm eagerly awaiting its release.
6897
6898What are the differences between men and women?
6899
6900Good question. The assumption that one just shouldn't use a defense (i.e. bad, weak, wrong, chidlish) is an effect of shame. It's a legitimate therapeutic tactic to strengthen peoples defenses. This is a lot of what short term therapy is typically about - since most people have neither the time, money, or fortitude for long term depth therapy.
6901
6902A defense is at least in part avoiding negative attention (in fancy speak, a shock to the ego). It's unrealistic to assume that we can be immune from the stimulus of negative attention from people we care about. This was apfelbaum's point - why not teach people to enjoy their defenses?
6903
6904"...refugees are largely walk-on actors in Britain?s own moral psychodramas, not individuals in themselves" You?re so vain you think this refugee crisis is about you
6905
6906Tou-che'. The last bit was about me. Haha - have a good weekend.