C1fsXW5b

1<Manos> how old are you again? 22?
21:58:39 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Here, have an article from a Bernie sanders supporter https://34justice.com/2015/12/19/why-i-reject-lesser-of-two-evils-ism/amp/
31:58:40 AM <+gonzobot> CloudBot - https://git.io/CloudBot Title: Why I Reject Lesser-of-Two-Evils-ism – 34justice
41:59:04 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh How is my age is relevant?
51:59:06 AM -is
61:59:22 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho It's relevant in the same way that "Ok Boomer" is
71:59:25 AM (i.e. not at all)
81:59:41 AM <Manos> Your inexperience living through multiple party's presidencies could explain a lot.
92:00:00 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh My inexperience? Lmao
102:00:12 AM ThatOneRoadie Thank you!
112:00:21 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho You know, I've never directly observed antarctica
122:00:35 AM I've never lived there, or seen it live, or even flown near it
132:00:38 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh So you don’t really have an argument so you revert to questioning my opinions based on my age lol
142:00:39 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Yet I know it exists.
152:00:43 AM <Manos> If you've only been paying attentikn since Obama then yes, you have a very limited frame of reference for the distinctions between parties.
162:00:44 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Antarctica is cool
172:00:58 AM Manos Read the article, thanks
182:01:10 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Similarly, although I may be under 30, I know the differences between the parties through recorded history
192:01:54 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Have you read about opposing points against the lesser of two arguments at all?
202:02:02 AM <Manos> Do you reject notions ThatOneRoadie like "economies fare better under democrats" and "democrats better provide for workers and the evironment?"
212:02:42 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh ThatOneRoadie I see a lot of differences as minuscule, for show and nowhere near as important as their similarities!
222:03:03 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho well, the premise is flawed
232:03:05 AM <Manos> Hah, this article is exactly the kind of attitude that saddled us with Trump. Thanks rwaeh 
242:03:29 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh I’m 22, I majored in history and took political science courses. I may not know anywhere near everything but I’m not stupid and I do read
252:03:53 AM So you ignored the points he was making to go towards the flawed argument of voting third party or abstaining led to trump lmao
262:04:00 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Certainly the economy may temporarily fare better under republicans in the short-term, but national debt explodes and the economy would've been better had republicans fulfilled campaign promises.
272:04:07 AM https://zfacts.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/US-National-Debt-GDP-graph.png
282:04:11 AM as one example
292:04:23 AM <Manos> I'm still reading rwaeh but that was my initial thought
302:04:35 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Arguably the economy has done *well*, but it could have done better.
312:04:47 AM <Manos> Everything would better if everyone fulfilled their campaign promises.
322:05:14 AM has trickle down ever worked as an economic system?
332:05:21 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Should I get articles on how blaming third party voters or abstains is ALSO wrong!?
342:05:23 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Well, that's a wide-reaching statement that has far-reaching consequences
352:05:32 AM <ihavepancakes> republicans economic model is boom and bust
362:06:04 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho More correctly: Had Republicans properly balanced their budgets as promised, there would have been a point where GDP outpaced National debt. i.e. the National debt could have reached 0.
372:06:17 AM <Manos> The answer is no, trickle down hasn't worked except for the very top pf the pyramid, like all ponzi schemes.
382:06:19 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho which would've exploded the economy practically overnight.
392:06:30 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Shall I get more articles, Manos?
402:06:48 AM Why didn’t you think about reading about this stuff
412:07:04 AM <ihavepancakes> dont read
422:07:15 AM <Manos> rwaeh, to what end, to justify your non-participation or to justify how that non-participation can burden a nation with somebody like Trump as president?
432:08:00 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Do you dispute that articles points? Y/N
442:08:10 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Republican economic principles dictate that a responsible party come along some years later (usually, coincidentally I'm sure, 8 years later) and clean up their mess of a deficit.
452:08:25 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Ok, is it time for me to find articles stating that you are also wrong in regards to that?
462:08:33 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho https://thefederalist.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Da5yz7IWkAA-gt8.jpg
472:09:03 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Literally making me research shit to disprove your obviously wrong arguments
482:09:32 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Also, arguably, the economy does do better, year-over-year, under democrats.
492:10:03 AM IIRC the numbers are something like +2.5% GDP Growth (on average) under Republicans since Reagan, and +4.9% under Democrats
502:10:04 AM <Manos> Are there specific points you want me to take away from it rwaeh? All the reasons for disliking HRC and the DNC are valid, but still don't address that the alternative was far worse even still.
512:10:25 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Did you not read its comments on the argument?
522:11:19 AM <Manos> > 
53those who disagree can continue to accuse people like me of “helping the GOP” in the 2016 election by pointing out that the Democrats have extreme flaws and don’t always deserve our support.  But it would be a lot fairer of them to acknowledge that millions upon millions of people have suffered at the hands of lesser-of-two-evils candidates over the years, that an open commitment to support a lesser-of-two-evils candidate robs voters of barga
542:11:19 AM ining power, and that the Democratic Party has brought voter discontent upon itself.
552:11:37 AM Just like you, it bloviates without suggesting any viable alternative.
562:11:51 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh ._.
572:12:27 AM <Manos> I'm open to a better system. You come up with a way to make it happen and you got my attention.
582:12:28 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh That is literally damn fucking problem
592:12:38 AM Why don’t you fucking get it
602:12:50 AM Shut
612:12:52 AM Shit
622:12:53 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Oi
632:12:55 AM <Manos> Why don't you get that we have what we have here and now?
642:13:37 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Literally been advocating with resistance against the system to create an alternative but nooo
652:13:46 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho This sums it up well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFgUjiwamCs
662:13:46 AM <+gonzobot> CloudBot - https://git.io/CloudBot (ThatOneRoadie) Bowl of shit - length 8s - 6 likes, 0 dislikes (100.0%) - 1,441 views - Dennis A Fletcher on 2015.03.29
672:13:52 AM <Manos> Non-participation is not resistance.
682:14:01 AM It's literally the laziest move possible.
692:14:14 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh You’ll just continue to vote in the binary system and perpetuate it with justifications full of fallacies
702:14:20 AM It isn’t lazy
712:14:22 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho I've always been of the opinion that if you don't vote, you don't get to complain about the resulting 4 years
722:14:29 AM (or 2 years, in the case of house seats)
732:14:49 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh ThatOneRoadie Shall I get an argument about how that is wrong?
742:14:59 AM Get an article*
752:15:19 AM <Manos> I can vote for the extremist candidates, I can vote on measures that drive policy leftward, I can subtly influence the flow through my vote. Your non-vote means even less than that.
762:15:20 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Lots of spicy arguments tonight that have been disproven long ago lol
772:15:23 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho I mean, get an article all you want, but if you don't vote out of protest, you're literally not getting a say in the matter
782:15:35 AM That's how representative democracy works
792:15:43 AM vote for who best represents you
802:16:00 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh But is voting out of protest NOT showing discontent and disapproval of the system?
812:16:09 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho No, it's showing that you don't care about the results
822:16:13 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Not voting*
832:16:32 AM Even when the results and government shows that they don’t care about you?
842:16:35 AM <Manos> Write in a candidate who does support your convictions.
852:16:45 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh None of the candidates do
862:16:45 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho You aren't saying "Nobody cares about me" when you don't vote
872:16:47 AM quite the opposite
882:16:53 AM You are saying, with a lack of a vote, that "I don't care that I'm not represented"
892:17:16 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Or is it saying that I’ve never been represented in the first place so why bother?
902:17:21 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho It's like screaming into the void, except with higher taxes and fatalism.
912:17:29 AM → cheers joined (user@user/cheers)
922:17:51 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh It’s like showing discontent and disapproval of the system by not legitimising
932:18:05 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho If you don't like any of the candidates, then run.
942:18:05 AM <Manos> And accomplishes nothing.
952:18:38 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Even if you don't win, your voice gets out and there might, as you point out, be other voters just waiting for someone like you to run for something
962:18:40 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Wow, that will totally do something
972:18:49 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Better than silence
982:18:54 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh As if the voices aren’t already out there?
992:19:01 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Well then vote for them you nincompoop
1002:19:05 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Voting doesn’t work
1012:19:18 AM I meant the voices are out there but not as politicians
1022:19:25 AM <Manos> start with local government. There's probably a number of positions that aren't even contested, you could slip right in to one.
1032:19:30 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho So convince them to run
1042:19:32 AM And also that
1052:19:40 AM the number of times I've seen a single name in a ballot
1062:19:55 AM <Manos> right? Every election too
1072:19:56 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho especially for important-but-unassuming positions like, for example, city councilor
1082:20:05 AM those are the people that get shit done
1092:20:33 AM <Manos> sub-controller for the 3rd district, west side
1102:20:59 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Yep, sounds like a shit job
1112:21:07 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Leftists don’t win seats in the state and federal government so your arguments are pretty moot
1122:21:15 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho surprise, they decide what businesses go where, how road money gets spent, and represent their little districts
1132:21:45 AM Huh, as I recall, my little area just voted 3 leftists into the city council, and 2 into controllers
1142:21:54 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh With leftists in select local governments positions in certain areas
1152:22:09 AM ^
1162:22:18 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho The mayor was a dead-heat race (I think less than 500 votes decided it) but IIRC the mid-right leaning candidate won (the Mayoral position here is non-partisan and doesn't carry much power)
1172:22:21 AM <Manos> yeah the times are a'changing rwaeh. Looks at the freshmen(women) in the House.
1182:22:36 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh They aren’t leftists
1192:22:45 AM They are soc Dems
1202:22:49 AM <Manos> They are by yankee standards
1212:22:57 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Which isn’t leftist
1222:23:14 AM <Manos> They're certainly closer to your spectrum than the bulk of the DNC or Reps.
1232:23:17 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho and I love the argument of "No third parties ever win federal votes" as an independent actively sits in the US House of Representatives
1242:23:20 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Time to stop going by americentric standards
1252:23:41 AM ThatOneRoadie Please lost all of the independents
1262:23:46 AM <Manos> Why rwaeh, we are talking about an american election with american voters, all of whom have americentric standards
1272:23:48 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh List
1282:23:58 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho In the house, Justin Amash of Michigan's 3rd
1292:24:06 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Ok, so one person
1302:24:18 AM Bernie and the other old guy in the debate
1312:24:22 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho In the Senate, Angus King of Maine and Bernie Sanders of Vermont.
1322:24:23 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Senate
1332:24:29 AM <Manos> He did say an independent
1342:24:53 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho and before you say "oh so three total whoop de fuck"
1352:24:57 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh So three people do not dispute the overall point that third party/independents generally get voted in
1362:25:02 AM <Manos> lol
1372:25:10 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho the current senate is 53/45/2.
1382:25:13 AM Those two matter.
1392:25:16 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh The independents themselves latch onto a party that it aligns to
1402:25:51 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Again, yes, that's how representative democracy works
1412:25:56 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Manos A big argument with the changing of the US is for it to align its spectrums to the international level
1422:25:56 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho you elect who you think best suits you.
1432:26:13 AM They go work with the other 99 or 434 electees to try to make and pass the bills that would best serve you
1442:26:26 AM ideally, regardless of party, because they give a shit about you
1452:26:31 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Hmm, checks the approval rating of congress
1462:26:36 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho but, y'know, politics is a team sport, rah rah rah
1472:26:43 AM Those stats are inherently flawed
1482:26:52 AM Nobody ever approves of congress
1492:26:55 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh *Sees how effective calling your representative is*
1502:26:57 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho but ask someone about their senator?
1512:27:03 AM Approval ratings through the roof
1522:27:08 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh *Looks at his they are lobbied*
1532:27:11 AM How*
1542:27:18 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho "Oh, it's not my senator that's the problem"
1552:27:19 AM etc etc
1562:27:30 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh ? Do any candidates align with me?
1572:27:36 AM <Manos> rwaeh, I would be tickled pink if the poles aligned with the rest of the western nations, but having a goal isn't the same as having a plan.
1582:27:44 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho and I'm not kidding when I say I've called my senator and seen minds made and minds changed
1592:27:58 AM I got flown to DC for STEAM stuff back in 2012ish
1602:28:05 AM because I bothered to call and write
1612:28:08 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh You’ve dismissed the plans because it doesn’t meet with your definitions lol
1622:28:19 AM lmaoo
1632:28:33 AM Do you know how many people call and write to just be IGNORED??
1642:28:33 AM ⇐ Jesus_1337 quit (JesusCreati@irc-hl1.3n3.dd6cic.IP) Ping timeout: 121 seconds
1652:28:41 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Get real
1662:28:47 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho oh, there's the fatalism again
1672:28:54 AM <Manos> Inaction is only a plan for the lazy.
1682:29:00 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho funny enough, I got to see the process my house rep and state senators used
1692:29:03 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Inaction? Nah
1702:29:16 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho every phone call and letter/e-mail went to a staffer (or, occasionally, the rep themselves)
1712:29:28 AM <Manos> I get it. I wake up plenty of days and think "My plan today is to do nothing." But you know what I get accomplished on those days? Nothin'/
1722:29:29 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho the staffers would put together a report for the representative.
1732:29:34 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Just voting and doing nothing else seems lazy, does it not?
1742:29:40 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho based on how many constituents called or wrote about something
1752:29:53 AM <Manos> less lazy than not even voting rwaeh 
1762:29:58 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho The old saying is "The Squeaky Wheel gets the Grease"
1772:30:07 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh It is still lazy
1782:30:10 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho and lobbyists can squeak with a lot of money
1792:30:23 AM but still, if a thousand people in someone's constituency call, they know something's fucky
1802:30:44 AM and if they get a USPS Letter bag full of opinions, you can be sure they'll take notice
1812:30:44 AM <Manos> now rwaeh is bothsidesing differences in laziness. it's like a disease.
1822:30:55 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Not every rep or senator reacts the same way
1832:30:59 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Sure
1842:31:02 AM Most do
1852:31:44 AM There's always exceptions to the rule, but for the most part, my House Rep (D) and both senators (R, D) all used the same process and saw similar reports every morning
1862:31:55 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Because not voting (a form of protest) which a lot of time comes with activism is much lazier than imputing a vote that doesn’t really matter at the end of the day and do nothing after.
1872:32:04 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho and they'd get a quick "final" report relevant to a particular bill when they went to the floor to vote
1882:32:14 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Inputing*
1892:32:15 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho which, it's worth noting, changed John McCain's mind.
1902:32:51 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh John McCain held his views on majority of things til the day he died
1912:32:56 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho The people who claim that not voting is a protest are probably the same people that claim not having kids is a protest when they don't even have a partner.
1922:32:59 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Stubbornly
1932:33:24 AM Wow, false equivalencies and discrediting a form of protest
1942:33:26 AM Great
1952:33:31 AM <Manos> You haven't suggested activism at any point when I've asked rwaeh, only non-participation, which is indeed the laziest move a person could take and calling it a form of protest is as helpful as me "protesting" a bad call during a sportsball broadcast.
1962:33:40 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Fatalism is not a protest.
1972:33:52 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Did you not clearly read what I said
1982:34:11 AM Not voting is a form of protest
1992:34:39 AM <%UKDivided> Anonymous rwaeh: though it also looks a lot like apathy
2002:34:42 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Sure, but you don't get to complain when the guy you didn't want to win, wins.
2012:34:49 AM <Manos> Yes you've mentioned that several times now. And I've mentioned that it';s a useless form of protest, even more useless than casting a nearly-useless vote.
2022:34:58 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho "I didn't want Trump to win"
2032:35:01 AM Cool, did you vote?
2042:35:01 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh UKDivided I care about things, I just don’t think that voting works
2052:35:04 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho "No"
2062:35:05 AM Why not?
2072:35:13 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Actually you do get to complain but ok
2082:35:16 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho "I feel that not voting is a protest against the binary system"
2092:35:31 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh You are saying that I have to vote to complain about how a government is?
2102:35:34 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Cool. Why didn't you vote for a candidate that promoted an instant-runoff system or ranked voting?
2112:35:40 AM "Because there were none"
2122:35:46 AM Bullshit, there are plenty.
2132:35:49 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Even if I STILL live under it?
2142:35:52 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho "Because there were none in my area"
2152:35:57 AM Bullshit, go run for office.
2162:36:03 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Are you assuming things
2172:36:05 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Even if you lose, you get a megaphone for 6 months
2182:36:17 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh That is not true at all but go off
2192:36:27 AM <%UKDivided> Anonymous ThatOneRoadie: it also denies the possibility of gradual change. Sure you might not like *that* candidate, but you embolden others if they see that candidate's direction win
2202:36:45 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho If Republicans get to be single-issue voters on Gun control or Abortion, go be a single-issue voter on Ranked-Choice Voting.
2212:36:45 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh https://medium.com/@angryblackhomo/if-you-dont-vote-you-can-t-complain-well-actually-35a1ddc70696
2222:36:48 AM <+gonzobot> CloudBot - https://git.io/CloudBot Title: “If You Don’t Vote, You Can’t Complain”…well, actually…
2232:37:06 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Because if you don't vote, you're promoting the inevitable violent overthrow of the government.
2242:37:10 AM <Manos> Eventually that magical unicorn third party candidate will get that 3% or whatever it is they need to qualify for actual funding the next election.
2252:37:30 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Violent overthrow of the government sounds like fun
2262:37:44 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Better vote republican so you can keep your guns then
2272:37:46 AM <Manos> At least its proactive!
2282:37:50 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho You'll need `em
2292:38:12 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh I don’t own any guns
2302:38:14 AM :3
2312:38:19 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Ooh, can I link opinion pieces on medium too?
2322:38:22 AM those are always fun
2332:38:54 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh I’ve literally said that the US republic should fall many times
2342:39:02 AM Wow, is someone mad?
2352:39:13 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho The advantage of the US Republic is that you have the opportunity to peacefully overthrow it
2362:39:17 AM every 2, 4, and 6 years.
2372:39:27 AM <Manos> What's funny is he is linking to these things all written ahead of the 2016 election like they aren't terrible to read in hindsight of Trump's "victory."
2382:39:51 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh That is incorrect when the institutions are still there
2392:40:08 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho The institutions are written to be changeable
2402:40:12 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh I haven’t found any recent articles
2412:40:19 AM The arguments are still relevant
2422:40:22 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Don't like the current Judicial System? Vote in a new executive branch
2432:40:36 AM Don't like the current executive branch? Vote in a new house or senate or both.
2442:40:41 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Yessss because voting it someone will actually make systemic change
2452:40:49 AM You’ve got me there
2462:40:53 AM I’ll start voting now!
2472:41:00 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Don't like the way the government is operating? Vote your state houses and senates, propose a constitutional amendment.
2482:41:12 AM If you don't vote, there will be no change
2492:41:25 AM Yes, even if your candidate has no shot in hell of winning
2502:41:48 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh The history of each election cycle where no systemic change occurs is totally irrelevant. New people, sane arguments, same parties? Maybe they won’t lie this time!
2512:41:52 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho yes, even if the person who most closely represents your views doesn't represent all of your views.
2522:41:58 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Irrelevant now!*
2532:42:14 AM Have you not been reading my arguments? Voting doesn’t work
2542:42:16 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho I like that argument in the face of a party being systematically impeached.
2552:42:26 AM Due to a vote. 
2562:42:28 AM in 2018.
2572:42:31 AM <Manos> This has been fun, you're good times rwaeh. <3 Gotta be up in 5 hours tho, ciao.
2582:42:39 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Oh, the stupid blue wave?
2592:42:52 AM Bye Manos. Great wasting my time with you
2602:42:54 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho I didn't like how the executive was operating.
2612:43:09 AM I voted for the person who represented my views in the house
2622:43:17 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Nancy Pelosi, the great clapper if change
2632:43:20 AM Of
2642:43:25 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho surprise, turns out a bunch of people didn't like it, and they ousted the current representative
2652:43:32 AM and surprise, that happened a bunch, everywhere.
2662:43:38 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Time to clap and meme your way to change
2672:43:57 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Worked for Trump in 2016.
2682:44:06 AM He got two Supreme Court justices out of it
2692:44:06 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh You’re obviously ignoring my points but ok
2702:44:41 AM Do you know how those ineffective politicians came to be? They used the argument that they would be different and make change.
2712:44:52 AM Guess what happened to them?
2722:44:56 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho well, if you make some salient points that aren't fatalism for the sake of fatalism, maybe I'll listen to them
2732:45:14 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh I’ve made my points. You just disagree and are stuck in your ways.
2742:45:34 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho ....They got Sent to the house, became the majority party, changed the speaker of the house, then got nominated to the House Intelligence Committee, and are writing articles of impeachment as we speak?
2752:45:37 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh You just continue to believe the lies politicians spit at you to gain votes
2762:46:00 AM Ohhh, the same party that doesn’t barely do shit when they are in power?
2772:46:21 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Hrm, seems they balanced the budget and passed some kind of healthcare act last time they were in power
2782:46:27 AM and grew the GDP 4.4%
2792:46:28 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Wow!! Impeaching trump in the house while not doing anything to change the system that creates people like trump?
2802:46:38 AM So cool
2812:46:58 AM Claps for the Democratic Party doing the below bare minimum
2822:47:10 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Hah, and you whine about us memeing our way forward
2832:47:10 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Three cheers for the Democratic party
2842:47:31 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho as for ignoring points and refusing to change, do you want to be the pot, or the kettle here?
2852:47:36 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh They are the way to destroy the rRpublicans
2862:47:47 AM Which points are being ignored?
2872:47:59 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Voting enacts change.
2882:48:05 AM this is demonstrably true
2892:48:06 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh That the Democratic Party does below the bare minimum?
2902:48:18 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho You might not like the degree of change, or the speed
2912:48:19 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Voting does not enact change
2922:48:26 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho but voting demonstrably enacts changes.
2932:48:38 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh On a systemic level? Nope
2942:48:45 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho It's an irrefutable fact that voting for something results in a change
2952:49:00 AM Maybe not immediately. Maybe not *this* election. Or even the next one.
2962:49:04 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh It is an irrefutable fact that voting doesn’t bring systemic change
2972:49:17 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho You know, as I recall, we used to own people in this country.
2982:49:24 AM Under the current system of government, even.
2992:49:34 AM You could buy and sell them on a market for such people.
3002:49:35 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Slavery is still legal as a punishment for crime
3012:49:38 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Look, change.
3022:49:50 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Slavery is still legal as a punishment for crime
3032:49:56 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho * In some states.
3042:50:04 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh On the federal level :)
3052:50:08 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho again
3062:50:10 AM * In some states
3072:50:16 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Says it right in the amendment
3082:50:17 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho if you can copy/paste, so can I
3092:50:32 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Still legal on the federal level
3102:50:42 AM Still filled with systemic racism
3112:50:47 AM Still xenophobic
3122:50:48 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Educate yourself, there have been laws passed since the thirteenth amendment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_States
3132:50:48 AM <+gonzobot> CloudBot - https://git.io/CloudBot Title: Penal labor in the United States - Wikipedia
3142:51:35 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh It is literally still used in prisons but please continue
3152:51:56 AM I will continue to use it as a point until it is banned on all levels
3162:52:20 AM Everywhere
3172:52:31 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Sure, but that doesn't make your point right
3182:52:36 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh It does
3192:52:47 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Slavery is illegal *except in a particular series of edge cases
3202:52:52 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Slavery is still a LEGAL method on US soil
3212:53:01 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Speech is free *Except in a particular series of edge cases
3222:53:10 AM You have the right to bear arms *Except in a particular series of edge cases
3232:53:16 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Slavery slavery slavery
3242:53:35 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho You have the right to be secure against unreasonable search and seizure *Except in a particular series of edge cases
3252:53:43 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Let’s see...the us sos till systemically destroying indigenous peoples...uhhh
3262:53:45 AM What else
3272:53:53 AM Is still*
3282:53:56 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho You have the right to refuse to quarter soldiers in your house *Except in a particular series of edge cases
3292:54:00 AM seeing a theme here?
3302:54:14 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Seeing the them that it should be legal at all
3312:54:20 AM Shouldn’t*
3322:54:30 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho You have the right to not be a witness against yourself *Except in a particular series of edge cases
3332:54:38 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Congratulations
3342:54:42 AM → Nightingale joined (J@user/Nightingale)
3352:54:59 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Totally destroys my point of slavery still being legal on us soil
3362:55:08 AM You’ve got me there
3372:55:08 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho You have the right to a public trial without unnecessary delay, the right to a lawyer, the right to an impartial jury, and the right to know who your accusers are and the nature of the charges and evidence against you.
3382:55:11 AM wait for it
3392:55:15 AM *Except in a particular series of edge cases
3402:55:22 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh You’re totally destroying me
3412:55:31 AM Do it some more
3422:55:33 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho And yes
3432:55:38 AM you have the right to not be enslaved *Except in a particular series of edge cases
3442:55:48 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh You’ve totally got me
3452:56:04 AM I surrender to the slavery police
3462:56:16 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho You know what the difference is between Slavery and Prison Labor?
3472:56:21 AM Slaves never committed a crime.
3482:56:37 AM They were never found guilty of offenses by a jury of their peers
3492:56:41 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Penal labour is a form of slavery
3502:56:51 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho and they were never sentenced to their work as a punishment for something they did
3512:56:59 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Actually they were guilty for being born and black
3522:57:08 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho they just existed. and their existence as a workforce was enough for them to be made slaves.
3532:57:08 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh According to slavery
3542:57:14 AM Slavers
3552:57:21 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Wow, who's doing false equivalences now.
3562:57:29 AM They were never found guilty of offenses by a jury of their peers
3572:57:33 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Their existence in the eyes of them are guilty
3582:57:35 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Did that one woosh over your head
3592:57:44 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Implying that the court system is fair?
3602:57:50 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Here, let me bring it down a bit for you
3612:57:52 AM They were never found guilty of offenses by a jury of their peers
3622:57:57 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Implying that slavery wasn’t a legal institution?
3632:58:01 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho It was
3642:58:07 AM you know how it isn't anymore?
3652:58:11 AM Voters.
3662:58:25 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh The government declared them to be guilty by allowing slavery
3672:58:31 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho They were never found guilty of offenses by a jury of their peers
3682:58:53 AM Try to weasel around it all you want.
3692:58:55 AM They were never found guilty of offenses by a jury of their peers.
3702:59:07 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Or, let’s see a proclamation that made it partially illegal while still upholding the oppressive system
3712:59:52 AM Ah, yes because the court system is fair and that the was applied to people that were determined to be 3/5ths, yes?
3723:00:04 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Funny that you cite that
3733:00:15 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Funny, huh
3743:00:20 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho A) That's not a court system thing
3753:00:21 AM like, at all
3763:00:43 AM You know what that was for? Counting people.
3773:00:46 AM Why?
3783:00:48 AM House seats
3793:00:58 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Ah, yes because court juries were never stacked full of white people to find black people guinty
3803:01:01 AM Guilty
3813:01:07 AM Or court judges
3823:01:12 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho No no no, let's go back to the first point
3833:01:24 AM The people were never determined to be 3/5ths in a court.
3843:01:32 AM in fact
3853:01:33 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Yes, house seats are based on population
3863:01:36 AM Your point?
3873:01:42 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho I want you to go read the three-fifths compromise
3883:01:57 AM and tell me where it says Three Fifths of slaves
3893:02:08 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh I want you to not deny how black People were treated in the court systems and still are
3903:02:13 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Or three-fifths of black people
3913:02:15 AM I'll wait
3923:02:34 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Stop going through your de jure shit and look more into de facto
3933:02:41 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Oh, there's no doubt that black people are treated unfairly in the court system, as are pretty much all minorities, but that's not the point you made
3943:03:03 AM and, as a point of fact: Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons. 
3953:03:05 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh You’ve totally got me there! What is written in the law automatically means that it is uphold!
3963:03:07 AM Here we go
3973:03:08 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho all other Persons.
3983:03:16 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Mr. law man is on the move
3993:03:33 AM Upheld*
4003:03:42 AM Totally getting me
4013:03:51 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Oh, and look at that, we repealed that with the 14th amendment
4023:04:00 AM ⇐ metalman quit (uid286708@user/Aye)
4033:04:10 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho You know who originally got counted for representation before the three-fifths compromise?
4043:04:19 AM White Male Landowners.
4053:04:22 AM that's it
4063:04:38 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Like most things, of course
4073:04:53 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Surprise, it was changed due to voters not liking it.
4083:05:14 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh White male landowners are one of the first things in most things
4093:05:19 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Ipso facto, voting causes systematic change in government.
4103:05:49 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Woooow something that happened so long ago accurately represents the environment today
4113:05:57 AM You’ve got me
4123:06:44 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho https://i.imgur.com/9KXQJ52.gif
4133:06:56 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh It isn’t a goalpost move at all
4143:07:15 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Goalposts: Voting doesn't cause change
4153:07:17 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh There are totally different factors and the United States was in a totally different place than it is today
4163:07:21 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Goal: Voting demonstrably causes change
4173:07:35 AM New Goalposts: Voting doesn't cause change in today's modern world
4183:07:48 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Because the environment back then is the same as today, yes?
4193:08:27 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho How so? The house and senate are roughly the same.
4203:08:29 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh A time where only white men was able to vote seems like a prime example of the democracy that should be promoted, yes?
4213:08:35 AM Were*
4223:08:35 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho The US Constitution, at its core, is the same
4233:08:42 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh ._.
4243:09:02 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho The idea of "Don't like it, vote" is why slavery is (Yes, mostly) illegal.
4253:09:07 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Because the 1800s is the same as the 1900s/2000s
4263:09:20 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho and why White Male Landowners aren't the only people represented in government anymore
4273:09:24 AM and why people age 18 get to vote
4283:09:29 AM and why women get to vote
4293:09:32 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh *Separates 1900s and 2000s*
4303:09:32 AM → pifon joined (pifon@user/pifon)
4313:10:00 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Women’s suffrage cane about mostly through pressure from protesting
4323:10:01 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Constitution was the same in 1778 as it is today
4333:10:07 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Same with the civil rights acts
4343:10:22 AM Both in itself didn’t go far evough
4353:10:37 AM ⇐ girlsandpeace quit (girlsandpea@user/girlsandpeace) Quit: Connection closed
4363:10:50 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Seeing that the women’s suffrage only first granted voting rights for white women
4373:11:22 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Hmm
4383:11:27 AM *re-reads 19th amendment*
4393:11:29 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh A lot of your examples cane with pressure through non-voting means....
4403:11:33 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Think you've got that backwards, buddy
4413:11:36 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Came*
4423:11:55 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho 15th amendment, 1870: The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude. 
4433:12:17 AM 19th amendment, 1920: The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex.
4443:12:33 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Well, the movement literally was led by and for white women so :)
4453:12:38 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho >
446Seeing that the women’s suffrage only first granted voting rights for white women
4473:12:59 AM A basic reading of the amendments to the United States Constitution determined that was a lie.
4483:13:35 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Again? Just because something is stated in an amendment doesn’t mean that it is upheld
4493:13:36 AM Hmmm
4503:13:38 AM Ummm
4513:13:57 AM The women’s suffrage movement being led and for white women isn’t a lie but ok
4523:14:01 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Ooh, section 2 of both amendments: Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.[
4533:14:05 AM → girlsandpeace joined (girlsandpea@user/girlsandpeace)
4543:14:22 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho >
455the women’s suffrage only first granted voting rights for white women
4563:14:36 AM False, voting rights were granted for all Citizens, regardless of sex, at the same time.
4573:14:43 AM 4 Pinocchios.
4583:14:50 AM — rwaeh ignores all of the barriers set up to stop black women and others
4593:15:13 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh There we go with ignoring the systemic barriers that stop the amendments from being fully upheld
4603:15:21 AM <M2SSDtoo> M2SSD Poll taxes and such? 
4613:16:10 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Oh hey, those are illegal too
4623:16:10 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Meant to say it was led and for white women instead of the other message lol
4633:16:14 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho and were enforced as such
4643:16:31 AM <M2SSDtoo> M2SSD Or more like dogs and water hoses? They were granted the rights
4653:16:33 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Aftermaths of those policies still exist today against non-white people but continue
4663:17:06 AM <M2SSDtoo> M2SSD They close a lot of polling locations
4673:17:23 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh HURR DURR it didn’t happen because it was enshrined in federal law durr hurr
4683:17:25 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho https://i.imgur.com/9KXQJ52.gif
4693:17:40 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh You keep on saying that but ok
4703:17:45 AM <M2SSDtoo> M2SSD But technically black men were given the right to vote by the emancipation proclamation
4713:17:58 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho HURR DURR It didn't happen because some racists cunts at a few polling stations used dogs and fire hoses.
4723:18:03 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Because it being technically illegal stopped things from happening
4733:18:12 AM You’re fighting the good fight with this nonsense
4743:18:13 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho You know, it rolls both ways
4753:18:24 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh M2SSDtoo Which of course wasn’t upheld in a lot of ways
4763:18:34 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho How is it I can legally own a particular kind of gun in my home state, but not in california
4773:18:40 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Life
4783:18:40 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho I'm federally guaranteed the right to bear arms
4793:18:56 AM or more correctly, the right to keep and bear arms.
4803:19:22 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Oh, look: https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/06/04/how-racism-almost-killed-womens-right-vote/
4813:19:23 AM <+gonzobot> CloudBot - https://git.io/CloudBot Title: How racism almost killed women’s right to vote - The Washington Post
4823:19:26 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Wait wrong one
4833:19:28 AM Wait
4843:19:33 AM <M2SSDtoo> M2SSD Yeah, they struggled to practice the right to vote that was given to them for short Century
4853:20:05 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Explain to me why the women’s suffrage took two amendments, not just one ;)?
4863:20:10 AM Hmmmmm
4873:20:21 AM Educate me oh wise and powerful one
4883:20:39 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Show me the second amendment prohibiting the denial of the right to vote based on sex please.
4893:20:42 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Shit whack
4903:20:49 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho hey, namecalling will get you booted.
4913:20:53 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh What
4923:20:53 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho especially shit like that
4933:21:08 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Which message lol
4943:21:13 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho "shit whack"
4953:21:22 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Shit whack was towards the amendment stuff
4963:21:28 AM Not  name calling
4973:21:53 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho You know, I thought the 20th amendment changed the date on which the offices of POTUS and VPOTUS began
4983:21:59 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Let’s not forget the voting rights acts!! HVe you forgot about them?
4993:22:06 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho I didn't realize the 20th amendment was "No really y'all, women get to vote, cut that shit out"
5003:22:16 AM Show me the second amendment prohibiting the denial of the right to vote based on sex please.
5013:22:24 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh What
5023:22:36 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho >
503Explain to me why the women’s suffrage took two amendments, not just one
5043:22:37 AM Show me the second amendment prohibiting the denial of the right to vote based on sex please.
5053:22:46 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Not one said denial
5063:22:49 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho I can't explain something that doesn't exist.
5073:23:11 AM You do know the Equal Rights Amendment never passed, right?
5083:23:54 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Just read the article
5093:24:09 AM No one mentioned the equal rights amendment
5103:24:16 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho >
511Explain to me why the women’s suffrage took two amendments, not just one
5123:24:28 AM Explain to me why you believe it took two amendments
5133:24:50 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Are you going to read the article that I linked into connection to it or not
5143:24:55 AM In*
5153:25:20 AM Took the 15th and 19th amendment and civil rights acts for encompass it all together
5163:25:24 AM To*
5173:25:34 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho That's how government works, yes.
5183:25:44 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh It is 3:21, I don’t know why I’m still arguing with you
5193:25:46 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho But that's not two amendments to get women to vote.
5203:25:55 AM Because you just can't go to sleep while being wrong.
5213:26:08 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh The point is that the AMENDMENTS were not fully upheld and required acts to support it
5223:26:13 AM I’m not wrong at all :)))
5233:26:18 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho That's how the amendments worked
5243:26:29 AM → Naxh joined (AndChat3352@user/Naxh)
5253:26:36 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh ._.
5263:26:38 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.
5273:26:51 AM States didn't want to obey the amendments
5283:27:01 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Your damn arguments earlier was blabbing about what the amendments said while I said that they weren’t upheld in reality
5293:27:03 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho the amendments didn't specify a punishment for failure to obey
5303:27:12 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh >\>
5313:27:15 AM >_>
5323:27:24 AM Telling me that I’m moving the goalposts
5333:27:35 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Congress then followed through and passed the appropriate legislation, which specified a punishment to enforce it
5343:27:47 AM The goalpost was "Voting demonstrably causes change"
5353:28:05 AM Worth noting, Women's suffrage was largely passed by representatives voted in by women in 11 states.
5363:28:12 AM in those 11 states, women could vote.
5373:28:29 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh You are referencing events from a different time, especially when people weren’t as pacified
5383:28:48 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho You asked me to demonstrate that voting causes change.
5393:28:51 AM I have done so.
5403:28:59 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh You solely use them to point to voting creating change when all of your examples had a lot of protesting/rioting etc to force for it
5413:29:04 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho The last constitutional amendment was passed in 1992.
5423:29:34 AM it is worth noting, that amendment was proposed in 1789.
5433:29:35 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Using examples that aren’t sole attributed to voting? Great points to use
5443:29:44 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho (Making it a 202 year old amendment)
5453:29:46 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Solely
5463:29:58 AM You’ve totally got an argument
5473:30:28 AM Let’s ignore all of the pressure from the people protesting and making a push for systemic change that forced the system to do something
5483:30:35 AM No, no, it’s only voting!
5493:30:49 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho There's a method in place for passing an amendment to the constitution that has (as yet) never been used, that bypasses the federal house of representative
5503:30:56 AM representatives* and congress
5513:31:02 AM I'll give you three guesses as to how it works.
5523:31:05 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh You’ve got me with your points that ignore people protesting :)
5533:31:26 AM I don’t give a rat’s booty
5543:31:31 AM Your points are crap
5553:31:46 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Oooh, pounding the table instead of the facts
5563:31:47 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Your examples are faulty to your point
5573:32:21 AM And you know it
5583:33:13 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho You can attack me all you want
5593:33:32 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh I’m attacking your points
5603:33:34 AM Which are faulty
5613:33:49 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho I have demonstrated your point as false.
5623:33:54 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh You have not
5633:34:13 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho On that, we can disagree, and obviously you always will. That's just how fatalism works.
5643:34:35 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh The examples that you’ve provided are not solely attributed to voting as they came about after massive protests, violence and other forms of pressure, not through voting
5653:35:08 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho How were those representatives that changed the laws and rules elected, I wonder.
5663:35:14 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Most in a time where the white man was the sole dominant voting figure which other groups were disenfranchised
5673:35:16 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Perhaps by some method of ballot counting
5683:35:39 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Yes, yes because a lot of them were elected with the sole duty of making those changes
5693:35:41 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Perhaps a fear of a large number of ballots going the other way caused them to pass some particular act or law
5703:35:51 AM That's how representative democracy works
5713:36:00 AM You ask your guy or gal to pass a law
5723:36:05 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Or is it because they were PRESSURED into doing it through the protests, violence, civil war -‘s many others
5733:36:11 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho if they don't, you vote for someone more aligned with your views
5743:36:13 AM that's also pressure
5753:36:16 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh ._.
5763:36:24 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho just as much pressure as petitioning the government
5773:36:27 AM or peaceful protest
5783:36:29 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Again, your examples are not solely attributed to voting
5793:36:31 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho or free speech
5803:36:40 AM or even lobbying
5813:37:14 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Seeing that a lot of the same people who passed the laws didn’t do so when being elected until pressured through different means
5823:37:21 AM Your points are faulty and therefore rejected
5833:37:59 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho If you base everything on "They didn't immediately pass a law they said they would as soon as they walked in the door", then I have some bad news for you about how your view of representative democracy differs from... well, the real world.
5843:38:04 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Also ignoring a lot of the different time periods but please continue
5853:38:13 AM That isn’t my point ar all.
5863:38:14 AM At
5873:38:25 AM A lot to most weren’t elected to pass those specific laws
5883:38:34 AM <ihavepancakes> sometimes they pass gas 
5893:38:38 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh In regards to a lot of your examples
5903:38:50 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho and a lot to most were elected to pass those laws
5913:38:55 AM among other laws
5923:39:06 AM they most represented the views of the constituents who elected them
5933:39:09 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh They had to be pressured through non-voting means
5943:39:11 AM AHAHAHA
5953:39:15 AM Ahahahahahaahahahhaa
5963:39:16 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho incorrect.
5973:39:40 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Saying that people in congress representing the views of the constituents is sweet
5983:39:43 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho They were pressured through multiple means, including protest, the threat of unseating, petitions, and mail
5993:40:02 AM Yes, that's less correct today because partisan politics cause huge political divides
6003:40:16 AM but regardless of your somehow perfect view of congress, that's how it works
6013:40:17 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Oh, no pressure to make slavery partially illegal, no pressure to grant  women’s right? No pressure to create the civil rights acts?
6023:40:39 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho The people vote for the representatives who they feel most closely represent their views
6033:40:44 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh It’s like you are generalising each example
6043:40:46 AM Do they?
6053:40:50 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho and yes, today that means "I want my guns, I'm voting republican"
6063:40:51 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Everyone has that option?
6073:40:54 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Yep
6083:40:58 AM Everyone has that option
6093:41:13 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Were there no voting restrictions during the times for a lot of your examples?
6103:41:19 AM That is not true
6113:41:33 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Okay, let's clarify it then.
6123:41:35 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh I don’t know what sort of numpty world you’re in lmao
6133:41:39 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho The people who can vote, vote for the representatives who they feel most closely represent their views
6143:41:49 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Ok...there we go....
6153:41:51 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho if you want me to be pedantic about it
6163:41:57 AM both sentences mean the same thing.
6173:42:05 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh It is more than just pedantic
6183:42:08 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho By definition, the people who can't vote, don't.
6193:42:20 AM The people who can vote, vote for the representatives who they feel most closely represent their views
6203:42:21 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Women couldn’t vote in representatives to give them rights
6213:42:26 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho actually, they could
6223:42:28 AM in 11 states
6233:42:31 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Slaves couldn’t vote in people to free them
6243:42:33 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho per your article linked above
6253:42:39 AM actually they could, in northern states.
6263:43:21 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Black people couldn’t vote in a lot of places for representatives to give them the civil rights acts
6273:43:32 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Neither could women, but now you're moving the goalposts.
6283:43:47 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh No, I’m pointing the flaws in your points
6293:43:59 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho No, I'm pointing out the flaws in yours.
6303:44:00 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh All about representation when it wasn’t offered to all
6313:44:08 AM ⇐ Heirlung quit (Heirlung@irc-vdi.5ct.pakce7.IP) Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in
6323:44:12 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho In a number of states, and sometimes in the majority of them, women could vote before the 19th amendment
6333:44:22 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Blabs about voting during times where voting was oppressed
6343:44:24 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho and "all other people" could vote before the 15rh
6353:44:26 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Much democracy
6363:44:26 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho th*
6373:44:28 AM Goalpostws
6383:44:30 AM Goalposts*
6393:44:42 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Oh, yes because no barriers were put in place
6403:44:46 AM No literacy tests?
6413:44:48 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho https://i.imgur.com/9KXQJ52.gif
6423:44:49 AM → Heirlung joined (Heirlung@irc-vdi.5ct.pakce7.IP)
6433:45:07 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh You are just generalising each example
6443:45:28 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Yes, but those were already illegal. Punishments were defined for doing such things in the following laws enacted by congress
6453:45:29 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Nope, the goalposts are still in the same place. You are having an illusion.
6463:45:39 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho you'll note that the CRA doesn't actually make anything illegal
6473:45:45 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Just because it was de jure illegal doesn’t mean that it didn’t happen
6483:45:50 AM Because IT DID
6493:45:56 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Well yeah, of course it did
6503:45:59 AM Jim Crow laws were a thing
6513:46:00 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh ._.
6523:46:06 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho But that's not your point
6533:46:10 AM Nor was it mine
6543:46:22 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh It is
6553:46:25 AM But continue
6563:46:26 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho It isn't
6573:46:27 AM but continue
6583:46:27 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Part of it
6593:46:30 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho It isn't
6603:46:30 AM but continue
6613:46:35 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Nope, it is
6623:46:36 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho It isn't
6633:46:36 AM but continue
6643:46:54 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Literally using it against your voting examples but ok
6653:47:00 AM Your examples are trash
6663:47:17 AM It was mostly non-voting means that forced the change :)
6673:47:38 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Your entire argument is flawed, and you're using the no true scotsman fallacy to pick around my examples that I'm giving you as statements of a flawed argument.
6683:47:41 AM But that's fine.
6693:47:42 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh It’s not like the politicians didn’t resist enacting a lot of those things
6703:47:49 AM Hmmm
6713:47:54 AM Democracy for all
6723:48:08 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho If you want to generalize "Protests happened therefore voting doesn't matter", that's fine
6733:48:20 AM Inherently wrong and arguably dangerous to our democracy.
6743:48:26 AM But you're entitled to an opinion
6753:48:37 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh No, it’s that voting in people generally didn’t do anything UNTIL there were protests that forced the change
6763:48:56 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho "voting doesn't matter unless there's follow-up action"?
6773:49:10 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh It was the protests, the violence and other things that made the change
6783:49:30 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho "other things" including voting and the threat of being removed from office by said voters.
6793:49:44 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Seeing that protests today aren’t doing anything to force change shows how pacified the population has become compared to the strength of the state
6803:50:00 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho So vote more
6813:50:04 AM apply other forms of pressure
6823:50:09 AM Write your congresspersons.
6833:50:30 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Ah, yes because most of the politicians would have been removed for not ending that form of slavery or granting women’s rights
6843:50:38 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Yeah, they were
6853:50:42 AM we fought a whole war about it.
6863:50:51 AM somewhere around 1864.
6873:51:00 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh You put a grand emphasis on voting when it shows that you are generally wrong
6883:51:12 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Voting demonstrably affects change.
6893:51:21 AM correction
6903:51:27 AM Voting Demonstrably effects change.
6913:51:36 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Nope
6923:51:39 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Yep.
6933:51:42 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Nope nope
6943:51:47 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Yep Yep.
6953:52:51 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh You are totally wrong and you should stop putting an emphasis on voting when it was non-voting means that did the work :)
6963:53:15 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho That argument is inherently flawed and is dangerous to democracy when misrepresented as you have.
6973:53:46 AM Ergo, you are factually, demonstrably, dangerously incorrect.
6983:54:15 AM It's like saying "The climate was going to change anyways, humans didn't do anything to change it"
6993:54:16 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh The danger to democracy in a system that inhibited it for so many different communities? Oh the horror
7003:54:45 AM How dare I put an emphasis on the success of non-voting means that pushed for change
7013:54:54 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho That statement is true, the climate was going to change anyways.
7023:55:06 AM it has, for centuries
7033:55:19 AM not like this though. https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/earth_temperature_timeline.png 
7043:55:54 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh I’m gong now
7053:55:56 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Voting Effects Change.
7063:55:58 AM Have a good night.
7073:55:59 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Nope
7083:56:02 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Yep.
7093:56:05 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh I disagree :)
7103:56:10 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho You're entitled to being wrong.
7113:57:04 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh You are wrong and you know it.
7123:57:23 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Oh, I've been wrong about plenty of things, but not that.
7133:57:27 AM Get to sleep
7143:58:06 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Hmm, let’s see. JFK elected on a platform of civil rights acts then became reluctant to do it until his administration was forced to due to black communities protesting! Look at that
7153:58:13 AM Hmmm
7163:58:47 AM Let’s see what else could be chosen....women’s suffrage being forced because of their protesting everywhere, including outside of the White House?
7173:59:16 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Well, that's a bit disingenuous
7183:59:37 AM The 19th amendment was created, ratified, and passed far before JFK Was elected
7193:59:56 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Really comes down to you believing what a politician says when elected if they were to say it on their platform. A politician MAY say they would support it on the platform to gain votes as part of virtues signaling then not do anything until forced to through other means.
7204:00:06 AM What? JFK was referring to the civil rights acts etc
7214:00:14 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho and, point of fact, the civil rights act was passed in 1960
7224:00:20 AM JFK took office in 61
7234:00:51 AM and, another point of fact, federalized the national guard to enforce said act
7244:01:00 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh There were more than one civil rights act
7254:01:34 AM 1964 based on what JFK started
7264:01:46 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Well yeah, 1960 addresses your point though
7274:01:48 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh With LBJ continuing it after getting pressured by the black communjty
7284:02:06 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho 1960 introduced penalties for anyone who obstructed someone's attempt to register to vote. It was designed to deal with discriminatory laws and practices in the segregated South, by which blacks and Mexican Texans had been effectively disfranchised since the late 19th and start of the 20th century.
7294:02:20 AM 1964 got rid of Jim Crow laws
7304:02:24 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh I was referring to the other acts too
7314:02:25 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho which had nothing to do with voting
7324:02:43 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh When it came to rights to the black community
7334:02:48 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho well, correction, had nothing to do with the act of voting
7344:03:07 AM 1964 did implement penalties for, as you mentioned, poll taxes and literacy tests
7354:03:40 AM and, worth noting, JFK Wrote it in 63 and it got filibustered in the senate until he got shot in the head
7364:03:53 AM after which it passed 73-27
7374:04:09 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Just a general statement that it took months-voting pressure to enact laws to benefit the community, not voting as the politicians would USE it in the platform to get elected and not uphold their promises
7384:04:30 AM → KOR_Solidarity joined (zergrager@irc-ur3.71h.u4cbp6.IP)
7394:04:54 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh So it does come down to whether the politician actually believed in what they said and put it in action which therefore goes to the point that voting in itself does not automatically lead to change
7404:05:20 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Well, it's worth looking at who filibustered it
7414:05:43 AM and that would be the representative from Virginia, whose voters would've voted him out (and did, 4 years later) had he not.
7424:05:47 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Definitely silly to attribute those examples to solely voting when they came about after being pressured through non-voting means 
7434:06:36 AM Was him being removed solely based on his filibuster Y/N
7444:06:38 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Definitely silly to attribute those examples to just protest pressure when they came about after being pressured through constituent action and voting means
7454:06:53 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh You’re just being silly
7464:07:05 AM Shall I go on to your next example
7474:07:25 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Nah, you should probably go to bed.
7484:07:33 AM You'll make less a fool of yourself that way.
7494:07:54 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh I haven’t made a fool out of myself
7504:08:08 AM I didn’t listen examples as solely due to voting as change when they obviously didn’t lol
7514:08:16 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho and yes, he was removed based on the CRA passing. Smith was defeated in the 1966 primary by a considerably more liberal Democrat, State Delegate George Rawlings, Jr.
7524:09:00 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Including when discussing things like civil rights and women’s suffrage, they would link it to protests etc as the biggest factors to achieve it, not voting
7534:09:49 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Well, if you believe that not voting makes your opinion valid, then maybe I believe that not protesting makes my opinion valid.
7544:10:22 AM There's no protest that totally aligns with my views
7554:10:29 AM ergo I don't protest as a form of protest.
7564:10:56 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh You should just look at this from another perspective as I’ve bet that you haven’t really read into the reasonings behind it
7574:11:00 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Anyways, it's like 4 AM, get to bed
7584:11:06 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh I’ve definitely wasted my time with you
7594:11:10 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho likewise.
7604:11:13 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Wish that I could get it back
7614:11:24 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Keep insulting, by all means.
7624:11:50 AM If you can't pound the facts, I'll be happy to let you pound the table or attack me.
7634:12:16 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Literally never heard a history class reference voting in representatives as a main part to achieve your examples
7644:12:34 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Perhaps you should've had better history classes.
7654:12:51 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh I can’t even find anything specifically about voting being a main aspect of achieving these goals?
7664:13:12 AM Do you have any of your sources on you or any direction that I can take
7674:14:28 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1958_United_States_elections
7684:14:28 AM <+gonzobot> CloudBot - https://git.io/CloudBot Title: 1958 United States elections - Wikipedia
7694:14:46 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Here, I can highlight it for you so you can get to sleep a little sooner.
7704:14:59 AM The ranks of liberal Democrats swelled as the Republican Party suffered several losses in the Northeast and the West. The election contributed to a weakening of the conservative coalition and those opposed to the civil rights movement, allowing for the eventual passage of the Great Society and the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
7714:15:18 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh That doesn’t specifically mention which candidates had that platform nor does that prove that the candidates were to uphold their campaign promises
7724:15:19 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Popular vote margin	Democratic +12.4%
7734:15:19 AM Net seat change	Democratic +49
7744:15:34 AM https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_coalition
7754:15:34 AM <+gonzobot> CloudBot - https://git.io/CloudBot Title: Conservative coalition - Wikipedia
7764:15:42 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh I understand that part as I’ve read about it but still
7774:15:58 AM Campaigning on it still doesn’t automatically mean that they would do it
7784:16:07 AM You seem to have that assumption
7794:16:29 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Well yeah, that's how politicans work
7804:16:41 AM You know how you can tell a politician is lying? They're breathing.
7814:17:06 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh ._.
7824:17:37 AM <Matthew> .grab ThatOneRoadie 
7834:17:38 AM <+gonzobot> CloudBot - https://git.io/CloudBot (Matthew) the operation succeeded.
7844:17:46 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho The republicans campaigned in the late 50's on Conservatism, and "bringing back the country to 1933"
7854:18:10 AM Democrats campaigned on reforms like the Great Society (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Society) and the Civil Rights Acts
7864:18:11 AM <+gonzobot> CloudBot - https://git.io/CloudBot Title: Great Society - Wikipedia
7874:18:17 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho surprise, Democrats won in a landslide vote
7884:18:29 AM because of those votes, action was taken and change was effected.
7894:18:30 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh So, your argument of voting makes change in the air as you can’t prove that they would have upheld their campaign promises without the great pressure from the affected groups
7904:18:47 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho It's not up to me to prove a negative
7914:18:54 AM Because of the voters, change was effected.
7924:19:06 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh You can’t prove that
7934:19:09 AM :)
7944:19:12 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Actually I can
7954:19:18 AM These congresspeople were voted into office.
7964:19:24 AM They effected change.
7974:19:31 AM Ergo, voters effected change.
7984:20:10 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh You cannot prove that they would have done it without the pressure from the protests
7994:20:17 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho You cannot prove they wouldn't have.
8004:20:28 AM It's not on me to prove a negative.
8014:20:40 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh The history of politicians lying to get into power
8024:20:42 AM Hmmm
8034:20:42 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho and, more correctly
8044:20:56 AM I cannot prove that they wouldn't have done it without pressure from the protests.
8054:21:07 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh You are trying to be sly but it isn’t working
8064:21:19 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho You cannot prove that they would have done it without pressure from the protests.
8074:21:23 AM It works both ways
8084:21:55 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Politicians have a history of lying to get into power then ignoring the promises
8094:22:02 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho I have facts that demonstrate voters ousted republicans who wouldn't, in a landslide loss for the incumbent party, and the resulting members of congress passed laws that they said they would./
8104:22:12 AM You need to disprove those, not the other way around.
8114:22:47 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh You have no facts that the politicians would have upheld their promises to enact the laws without the protests
8124:22:52 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho I mean...
8134:22:53 AM I do
8144:22:57 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Nope
8154:23:02 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho They passed laws that they said they would pass
8164:23:08 AM ipso facto, they upheld their promises.
8174:23:30 AM It is correct to say that "I cannot prove that, had the protests not happened, these laws would not have passed"
8184:23:36 AM however, that's not what I'm saying happened
8194:23:48 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh You also put an emphasis on voting when a lot of times people protested into of voting
8204:23:51 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho and regardless, the onus would be on you to prove that, not me.
8214:23:57 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Instead*
8224:24:11 AM You are making the claim that voting effects change
8234:24:17 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho I can, and have, shown you that "Had voters done nothing, the protests would have fallen on deaf ears, and these laws would not have passed"
8244:24:23 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh You need to prove it yourself
8254:24:27 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Ipso Facto, voting effected change.
8264:24:31 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh No
8274:24:36 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Yep
8284:24:45 AM Go to bed.
8294:24:45 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh You are totally wrong :)
8304:25:02 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho That I may be, but I'm less wrong than you
8314:25:24 AM and if you truly believe that this has been a waste of your time and you haven't learned anything, then you weren't going to learn anything to begin with.
8324:25:34 AM But I don't think this was a waste of time.
8334:25:51 AM In fact, I'm glad to have had this discussion. Thanks for your time.
8344:26:10 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Ah, yes. You are the teacher and I am the dummy
8354:26:13 AM <%UKDivided> Anonymous are you two still at it?
8364:26:20 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Of course
8374:26:48 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Nonsense, I went into this discussion with an open mind, and my opinions have shifted.
8384:27:03 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Obviously not
8394:27:12 AM <%UKDivided> Anonymous ThatOneRoadie: give up rwaeh has a terminal case of "vanguard of the revolution"
8404:27:26 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho It is wrong of me to say "If you don't vote, you get no opinion".
8414:27:30 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh How is that relevant
8424:27:43 AM It is because it isn’t true
8434:27:43 AM <Matthew> I should look up how much difference there is in policy changes after an election in relation to the amount of parties up for voting
8444:27:51 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho I'll instead say "If you don't vote, your opinion won't be counted"
8454:28:01 AM ooh, that'd be interesting data
8464:28:19 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh Voting isn’t the only method to voice opinions but ok
8474:28:23 AM <Matthew> US has a primarily 2 party system, whereas my country (netherlands) has an abundance of them
8484:28:32 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh You think that all you like
8494:28:36 AM <%UKDivided> Anonymous Matthew: hard to say, you'd struggle to have a control condition.
8504:28:44 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho You are correct. Arguably, it is a more effective method to effect change.
8514:28:50 AM <Matthew> That's fairly true
8524:28:55 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho If you want to voice an opinion, start a petition.
8534:29:01 AM if you want to change something, vote.
8544:29:35 AM <Matthew> At the end of the day all you can achieve with non-voting actions is change the opinion/policy of the ruling members/party correct?
8554:30:07 AM <%UKDivided> Anonymous or other voters
8564:30:08 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho And if the party is determined and set in their course, non-voting actions will not effect change.
8574:30:25 AM <Matthew> I've been looking into politics more recently, primarily non domestic cause domestic always carries personal opinion
8584:32:33 AM — rwaeh sigh
8594:32:36 AM ⇐ girlsandpeace quit (girlsandpea@user/girlsandpeace) Quit: Connection closed
8604:32:38 AM <ThatOneRoadie> Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Go to bed.
8614:32:51 AM <rwaeh> Rwaeh No