ATzAFrPn

1Vyalia Eg'erre [11:12 PM]
2But summary was (insofar I have listened)
3- Corp and mining taxes
4- Looking at unblueing/unbluetraling people due to being sick of ocean of blues
5- Recommendation for people to go on alpha talwar roams
6- Recommendation for people to join FC team/lead roams
7- Purging of 2.5k members
8- Super SRP and capital SRP increase on the way
9- People need to stop being patronizing in comms, serious issue
10- Muninn doctrine
11- DEQC and BOLD departures
12Also around 2 hrs of bacon sandwich eating, as mentioned
13
14Alexis Finch [11:14 PM]
15:heart:
16
17Vyalia Eg'erre [11:14 PM]
18Theres more one sec
19Also talked about:
20- Triple staging and urging to fill all stagings with required doctrines
21- Repopulation of impass and the re-establishment of no-context zone
22- CSM voting list (not just nullsec bloc candidates)
23- SF on back burner, but drop them when they try anything funny
24- Come to IRL stuff
25- Run dojo classes and alpha talwars, money is given. LOTS of money. Lots of topics.
26- Promotion of Ewar, logi and support in fleets
27- Respect new players and get them on comms/slack
28I'm only 80 minutes in. Good podcast type material
29
30Vyalia Eg'erre [11:24 PM]
31- Bring more tackle
32- Stay classy; don't be unthinkingly offensive, homophobic or racist
33- Get ready for crazy summer deployment; don't invest in a tonne of krabbing stuff because you'll want isk for this
34- More AUTZ caps and activity, be careful for SF in AUTZ if in catch or north impass
35
36Tian Khamez [11:58 PM]
37Ty for the summary
38
39Vyalia Eg'erre [12:06 AM]
40-Mum calls
41-Computer crashes
42-Failure to kick people
43-Hatred for wigs
44-Australia isnt that bad (weird since he lives in NZ)
45-PSC had a mascot hat?
46-Rule 1: No politics/religion/economics talk
47-Purging of slack being investigated
48-AT Team recruitment
49-Old friend shows up
50-Cagali not leading AT team lead to PL collapse
51-Australian way of life with sick days
52-Socky Mcfawker has always had eyes, and is too busy playing other games to talk to us assholes, but hes says we needs to be in fleets, and be killing things, and fighting stuff and doing all that other good stuff. Boring stuff, sitting around and complaining about stuff, is boring - is bad shit, and bad shit aint even interesting to bad shit experts. Ok, goodbye
53-Matias is a dude
54-The Fapstar keepstar was actually named after the first Brave pilot to be KIA in war, Fapstar.
55-Don't recruit in rookie systems or in their vicinity, against EULA.
56-Cagali knows how to undock
57-Be in standing fleet when flying around new eden
58-Incredible is putting up an N-CREL keepstar
59-Choose male amarrian character to make sock pupper character in Eve (has hood)
60-3-UCBF contains Brave's first keepstar and was renamed after CJ's son.
61
62Meha Taredi [12:06 AM]
63Taxes are good \â—‹/
64
65Vyalia Eg'erre [12:06 AM]
66And that concludes the ENTIRE damn sota
67Taxes are indeed good
68
69Meha Taredi [12:07 AM]
70Bluetruals are good /â—‹\
71
72Vyalia Eg'erre [12:07 AM]
73Better than blues
74*Complete Sota Summary:*
75- Corp and anom mining taxes being investigated
76- Looking at unblueing/unbluetraling people due to being sick of ocean of blues
77- Recommendation for people to go on alpha talwar roams
78- Recommendation for people to join FC team/lead roams
79- Purging of 2.5k members
80- Super SRP and capital SRP increase on the way
81- People need to stop being patronizing in comms, serious issue
82- Muninn doctrine
83- DEQC and BOLD departures
84- Triple staging and urging to fill all stagings with required doctrines
85- Repopulation of impass and the re-establishment of no-context zone
86- CSM voting list (not just nullsec bloc candidates)
87- SF on back burner, but drop them when they try anything funny
88- Come to IRL stuff
89- Run dojo classes and alpha talwars, money is given. LOTS of money. Lots of topics.
90- Promotion of Ewar, logi and support in fleets
91- Respect new players and get them on comms/slack
92-Rule 1: No politics/religion/economics talk
93-Purging of slack being investigated
94-AT Team recruitment
95-The Fapstar keepstar was actually named after the first Brave pilot to be KIA in war, Fapstar.
96-Don't recruit in rookie systems or in their vicinity, against EULA.
97-Be in standing fleet when flying around new eden
98-Incredible is putting up an N-CREL keepstar
99-3-UCBF contains Brave's first keepstar and was renamed after CJ's son.
100
101Bisness Pirates [12:20 AM]
102>- Purging of 2.5k members
103Well, thank god I'm picking a good moment to start being active again :rolling_on_the_floor_laughing:
104>-Matias is a dude
105I was wondering why he is was being called she by several people in #lobby \
106Seems I wasn't crazy for once
107
108Bisness Pirates [12:28 AM]
109I've started listening
110And Cagali just screamed FUUUUUCK for no reason
111
112Bisness Pirates [12:37 AM]
113You missed the possible summer deployment!(that's clearly never going to happen :kappa:) (edited) 
114
115Jay Dellacorte [1:00 AM]
116Catch vs Impass war!!
117lets purge the krabs
118
119Alexis Finch [1:01 AM]
120Would go badly for catch
121
122Stars Storm [1:02 AM]
123Nah. Catch people can PVP
124
125Alexis Finch [1:02 AM]
126The 50 man battleship fleets catch safes up for, impass eats for breakfast
127
128Jay Dellacorte [1:02 AM]
129At least us catch people will get some juicy dread and carrier KMs :))
130
131Jana Halley [1:02 AM]
132Nah, impass dies when there are single neutrals in a system, that might possibly maybe drop something
133
134Jay Dellacorte [1:04 AM]
135Alexis I seen you type :see_no_evil:
136:congaroto:
137
138Alexis Finch [1:04 AM]
139Tis just a comma I left in the bar
140
141Jay Dellacorte [1:04 AM]
142:laughing:
143
144Alexis Finch [1:04 AM]
145Here, see the full message I had preloaded
146
147Fomol Grosstraktor [1:05 AM]
148Impass kills frat supers :kappa:
149
150Alexis Finch [1:05 AM]
151,a
152
153Jay Dellacorte [1:05 AM]
154With the help of catch :monkey_face:
155and test
156
157Alexis Finch [1:06 AM]
158It does. https://zkillboard.com/kill/76720696/ :nokappa:
159zkillboard.com
160Hel | Solo Brutor | Killmail
161Solo Brutor (Origin.) lost their Hel in 442-CS (Impass). Final Blow by Tyrell Cesaille (Brave Newbies Inc.) flying in a Hel. Total Value: 15,504,086,212.44 ISK
162
163Jay Dellacorte [1:07 AM]
164http://prntscr.com/np9449
165Lightshot
166Screenshot
167Captured with Lightshot
168
169Fomol Grosstraktor [1:07 AM]
170Purging the krabs would do wonders to our taxes
171
172Jay Dellacorte [1:07 AM]
173With catch newbies!!!
174You SRP your own ships hahaha
175
176Alexis Finch [1:09 AM]
177^~^
178At the end of the day, we say "catch this", "impass that", we're all brave. The regions are two sides of the same coin.
179
180Fomol Grosstraktor [1:10 AM]
181Doesnt the grr krabs mentality stem from people in catch not being able to kill things that pass through because of numbers anyways :sunbert:
182
183Jay Dellacorte [1:10 AM]
184But, but.. Wheres the fun in that?
185
186Fomol Grosstraktor [1:10 AM]
187Now feythabolis people on the other hand :kappa:
188
189Jay Dellacorte [1:11 AM]
190They exist? :hear_no_evil:
191
192Fomol Grosstraktor [1:11 AM]
193Im not sure if its still w4rp mining there tho
194
195Jay Dellacorte [1:11 AM]
196Ive been there a bunch of times, only seen space tumbleweed lol
197
198Alha'zred [1:12 AM]
199:heart: :letter-s: :letter-o: :letter-t: :letter-a: :heart:  (great stuff to wake up to :sota: )
200
201Fomol Grosstraktor [1:12 AM]
202I did ADMs there a couple of times but dunno, i dont do anomalies vOv
203
204Jay Dellacorte [1:13 AM]
205That was my reason for being there too lol ADM
206
207Fomol Grosstraktor [1:15 AM]
208Its nice to do a tour whenever you get some new space too
209
210Ignacius Kh'orlan [1:17 AM]
211Tbh take all of catch, abandon impass and feyth and there will be no grr impass mentality towards krabs :kappa:
212
213Jay Dellacorte [1:18 AM]
214impass is so safe for crabbing tho
215for VNIs at least haha
216
217Fomol Grosstraktor [1:18 AM]
218Grr west catch
219
220Jay Dellacorte [1:18 AM]
221I went on a straight month afk ratting without dying once
222
223Ignacius Kh'orlan [1:18 AM]
224Catch has better ticks though :crab:
225
226Alexis Finch [1:20 AM]
227:hyperkrabbing:
228
229Bisness Pirates [1:20 AM]
230Yeah, but in catch you die
231The krabs in impass are great and should be treasured
232
233Ignacius Kh'orlan [1:21 AM]
234U don't die in catch if u protecc
235
236Garad Martar [1:21 AM]
237I still think brave should abandon catch and go all in on impass
238
239Jay Dellacorte [1:21 AM]
240Then we would be so far away from our Simple farmer friends :disappointed:
241
242Garad Martar [1:22 AM]
243All the better :P
244
245Bisness Pirates [1:22 AM]
246tbf, that is a solution I would like. If legacy as a whole abandoned catch
247
248Ignacius Kh'orlan [1:22 AM]
249But impass has crap rats, crap explo and far away from any high/lowsec
250
251Bisness Pirates [1:22 AM]
252And turn Catch into hell
253
254Alexis Finch [1:22 AM]
255Impass standing
256She protecc :cyno:
257She attacc :ragnarok:
258But most importantly
259She have your bacc :brave:
260
261Garad Martar [1:23 AM]
262I think I lost brain cells from that
263
264Alexis Finch [1:23 AM]
265<3
266
267Garad Martar [1:23 AM]
268<3
269
270Jay Dellacorte [1:23 AM]
271get a room pls, this is not the place :loveparroto:
272
273Garad Martar [1:24 AM]
274Thing is. The argument for both regions used to be the catch roaming content. I.e content in catch. Content denial in impass
275The roaming content no longer exists
276Sf are a pain in the ass. And not fun to fight
277So just consolidate to impass
278
279Jana Halley [1:24 AM]
280There is less content, but it still exists
281
282Ignacius Kh'orlan [1:25 AM]
283But the potential of catch
284
285Jay Dellacorte [1:25 AM]
286I love doing catch explo, made 500mil in the last 2 hours
287
288Ignacius Kh'orlan [1:25 AM]
289What was that command for that mittens quote again
290
291Garad Martar [1:25 AM]
292I Unrealised potential =0
293
294Jana Halley [1:26 AM]
295also, if they don't go to Catch, they go to Impass. By having space in Catch it prevents actual annoying fleets from coming to impass
296Also, while Catchs skybox is bad, the one in Impass is terrible
297
298Alexis Finch [1:27 AM]
299Catch players are meat shields for impass, prove me wrong :kappa:
300
301Jana Halley [1:27 AM]
302The Jewel of Nullsec!
303
304Slackbot [1:27 AM]
305http://i.imgur.com/UcVIB1U.gif
306
307Jana Halley [1:28 AM]
308Impass are crabbers that are too afraid to fight an even fight, prove me wrong
309
310Alexis Finch [1:28 AM]
311I can show you 10 videos of impass players running combat drops into fleets that'd make catch cry :P
312
313Garad Martar [1:29 AM]
314Plot twist. Catch is impass and Visa versa
315You doof
316
317Alexis Finch [1:29 AM]
318Le gasp
319
320Jana Halley [1:29 AM]
321Still not an even fight. :wink:
322
323Alexis Finch [1:30 AM]
324An even fight is one you didn't prepare for
325
326Jay Dellacorte [1:30 AM]
327also we dont have dread or carrier drops in catch, apart from mike but he usually welps them lol
328
329Jana Halley [1:30 AM]
330An even fight is a fun one for both parties
331
332Jay Dellacorte [1:30 AM]
333like yday he dropped solo on 4basi and 20 bcs
334
335Alexis Finch [1:30 AM]
336XD
337
338Jay Dellacorte [1:31 AM]
339pretty sure u can guess how that went down lol
340
341Garad Martar [1:34 AM]
342I mean. Impass came to catch and lost 4 rorqs
343
344Alexis Finch [1:34 AM]
345Thats just henry, he knew he messed up
346
347Jay Dellacorte [1:35 AM]
348about a week ago they dropped on his freighter too
349but we saved him that time
350
351Alexis Finch [1:35 AM]
352Killed a few polarized bombers too
353
354Garad Martar [1:35 AM]
355And then he lost 2 more rorqs. Poor bastard
356
357Alexis Finch [1:35 AM]
358Aye
359
360Jay Dellacorte [1:39 AM]
361Thats why i didnt bother training rorq alts
362one stupid mistake and you can be set back for days (edited) 
363
364Jana Halley [1:58 AM]
365Anyways, my suggestion for Mining taxes would be:
366Set the % tax rate so that with tax + reprocessing fee the overall amount paid is 10%. That would make it fair to the people paying isk on their ratting. Adjust moon ores to the same rate and regular ores on moons get a 1% discount to encourage mining those and spreading the mining activity over more systems , improving our overall ADM situation.
367
368Stars Storm [2:07 AM]
369Tax Krabs at 50% they make more toons, content goes up we get more ISK. Win/Win
370
371Adrian Atruin [2:18 AM]
372Tax explo
373
374Ignacius Kh'orlan [2:22 AM]
375:nokappa:: no tax mining or explo or stuff, tax sell contracts with standard market tax
376stop that tax evasion
377and easier than taxing 1000 different things I imagine, as it affects all areas
378
379Jana Halley [2:30 AM]
380Contracts are going to be a lot harder than just pulling the mining ledger
381
382Alha'zred [2:35 AM]
383Tax Slack :pogchamp:
384
385Alha'zred [2:36 AM]
386(inb4: some people just want to watch the world burn!)
387
388Jana Halley [2:37 AM]
389And while I don't disagree on taxing explo, the alliance also has no maintenance costs for people doing explo. Mining and ratting upgrades cost maintenance, and so do structures that are carriers and Rorqs can dock at
390
391Alha'zred [2:40 AM]
392Exploration should not be taxed: there's no cost at all for the Alliance about it.
393Mining and Ratting do incur certain degrees of costs (upgrades, the save fleets, infrastructure) and while unpopular, I can see the argument for some form of taxing to help out the Alliance coffers. I feel like the argument that we are big enough to have to behave like the big alliances do (when it comes to ISK balance) is a fair one, and it makes sense as long as stuff is re-invested in SRP, and other stuff for the Alliance as a whole. Unpopular, but fair policies aren't a bad thing.
394
395Berend Antollare [2:45 AM]
396I mean costs to the alliance in that case aren't a real argument then, right?
397You might not explicitly need it but many people tether on citadels during explo
398Owning the sov/having allies where you can explo costs ISK to maintain
399I'm not saying we should tax explorers BTW and as discussed somewhere before I'd be against mining taxes for newbros (edited) 
400
401Adrian Atruin [2:47 AM]
402> Exploration should not be taxed: there's no cost at all for the Alliance about it.
403Yeah, but at the same time, as a nearly pure-explo person, I do take from the alliance (SRP) while not directly giving any money into the alliance.
404(barring donations ofc) (edited) 
405
406Berend Antollare [2:48 AM]
407And if the argument is we should make the alliance a bit less poor then the explorers shouldn't be excluded
408
409Jana Halley [2:48 AM]
410Yes, but that cost is the same for all activities. Mining and ratting need extra upgrades that explo does not (unless we suddenly start installing the survey things and limiting explo to our systems)
411I'd give ratting and mining taxes (and the costs that are already there for reprocessing and manufacturing) a higher priority than for example explo and looting
412
413Fomol Grosstraktor [2:51 AM]
414Do we need a 50 man tax department
415It needs to have an overcomplicated structure to maximize paperwork
416
417Jana Halley [2:52 AM]
418Core already has access to all of this, we'd only need something that actually uses all of that data
419
420Berend Antollare [3:04 AM]
421Idk, I'm all for taxing corps and high level mining. Which would probably cost me ISK as well. But as I said before I'm against taxing mining newbros
422
423Ignacius Kh'orlan [3:05 AM]
424sell rorqual mining permits :kappa:
425
426Berend Antollare [3:05 AM]
427Too much manual effort needed
428
429Bisness Pirates [3:05 AM]
430?
431FC what is programming
432FC what is ESI?
433
434Berend Antollare [3:06 AM]
435How would you grant a permit?
436
437Bisness Pirates [3:06 AM]
438Oh, permits you meant?
439I thought you meant decide between whom to tax.
440
441Berend Antollare [3:06 AM]
442How long is the permit valid? If I go AFK for a week, do I get my ISK back?
443
444Bisness Pirates [3:06 AM]
445Which is just setting a condition when sending out the taxes
446
447Berend Antollare [3:07 AM]
448If I need to go AFK due to emergency, do I get ISK back
449If I only mined 1 rock, do I get my ISK back?
450
451Bisness Pirates [3:07 AM]
452Well, yeah, Igancius was clearly joking.
453Just do an income tax.
454(mining income*)
455
456Berend Antollare [3:08 AM]
457Taxing would be way simpler but again to exclude newbros we'd need to agree on a threshold
458
459Bisness Pirates [3:08 AM]
460If you want to be super fancy you can do a progressive one so that newbros don't get hit
461
462Hoshi [3:08 AM]
463Each rock requires a different permit .)
464
465Bisness Pirates [3:08 AM]
466Or just say:
467You don't have to pay until you owe us X million in taxes for the first time
468
469Berend Antollare [3:08 AM]
470Also, since moons are already taxed would you be excluded to avoid double taxation?
471
472Bisness Pirates [3:09 AM]
473I would assume that would be avoided yeah
474And that it extends to regular ore
475But it might be taxed at different rates
476Like, what could for example be done is that Dark Ochre which no one likes to mine is taxed less than that juicy Arkanor
477
478Adrian Atruin [3:10 AM]
479> But as I said before I'm against taxing mining newbros
480Sounds like a no-tax threshold
481
482Bisness Pirates [3:10 AM]
483And _should_ be trivially to implement once you're taxing mining income anyway
484Tax treshold or progressive(though that runs into issues like should ratting count? Should market isk count? etc)
485And also, I think it might be a good idea to do what I just said and tax different ores differently to "equalize" the belts a bit to avoid cherry picking.
486
487Berend Antollare [3:13 AM]
488Linking the mining tax system to the moon taxing system would be some hassle but not impossible
489
490Bisness Pirates [3:13 AM]
491Like let's say 1 m3 arkanor is worth 1.3 m3 dark ochre, tax arkanor for like 20% and arkanor to 0%
492
493Jana Halley [3:13 AM]
494But why would we have a tax exempt status for newbros that mine but not those that rat?
495
496Bisness Pirates [3:13 AM]
497If that is a hassle :reeeintensifies: whoever wrote it
498Berend Antollare
499Linking the mining tax system to the moon taxing system would be some hassle but not impossible
500Posted in #criticise-cagaliToday at 3:13 AMView message
501
502Berend Antollare [3:13 AM]
503Cause as Aernir mentioned, we'd be the only newbro group who does
504
505Bisness Pirates [3:13 AM]
506Because the only hassle should be telling everyone to require to give us the mining ledgers
507That as well yeah
508Jana Halley
509But why would we have a tax exempt status for newbros that mine but not those that rat?
510Posted in #criticise-cagaliToday at 3:13 AMView message
511
512Jana Halley [3:14 AM]
513Core already gets the mining ledgers
514
515Bisness Pirates [3:14 AM]
516Though it's something more top down which makes it more of a hassle instead of it being immediately taken from your wallet.
517
518Berend Antollare [3:14 AM]
519@bisnesspirate we already have that but you would need to cross out double, you can only find the system not the location where someone mined and what they mined
520
521Bisness Pirates [3:15 AM]
522If it does? Then assuming that there won't be performance issues setting it up should be super easy.
523Jana Halley
524Core already gets the mining ledgers
525Posted in #criticise-cagaliToday at 3:14 AMView message
526
527Berend Antollare [3:15 AM]
528So you would need to check the personal mining ledger against the moon mining ledger
529Which is not that difficult but will take some implementation
530
531Bisness Pirates [3:16 AM]
532Nah, you just stop using the moon mining ledger
533Only check the personal
534no need to shift through that as well
535
536Berend Antollare [3:16 AM]
537Hm, interesting idea
538
539Bisness Pirates [3:16 AM]
540Like, unless CCP is retarded, which they often are, I assume the moon mining ledgers and personal ones are in exactly the same format
541So it would just be a matter changing where they point to..
542
543Berend Antollare [3:17 AM]
544Also @jana_halley should we then also tax BHD?
545
546Bisness Pirates [3:17 AM]
547BHD?
548
549Berend Antollare [3:17 AM]
550Brave Hole Divers, null Brave members krabbing in WHs
551
552Bisness Pirates [3:18 AM]
553aaaah
554
555Jana Halley [3:18 AM]
556As I said, I'm fine with taxing everyone, including explorers etc. I just think that the ones relying on expensive sov infrastructure should be looked at first
557
558Bisness Pirates [3:18 AM]
559I mean, if possible I would be for it :stuck_out_tongue:
560
561Berend Antollare [3:18 AM]
562BHD uses/benefits from upgraded infrastructure
563
564Bisness Pirates [3:19 AM]
565Or just require everyone's wallet and assets and start demanding income and asset taxes! MUHAHAHA!
566
567Jana Halley [3:19 AM]
568The upgrades they would be using are not active currently
569
570Berend Antollare [3:19 AM]
571They are still installed
572But as I said, idk what the 'most fair' implementation would be. I am in favour of making Brave less poor so we can do some more cool stuff
573Super/cap SRP and incentives. Deployment. Better regular SRP
574
575Jana Halley [3:21 AM]
576Yes, but not being active and being paid for, opposite to the six systems running mining upgrades V
577
578Bisness Pirates [3:21 AM]
579The most fair would be going full big brothers and pull assets and income from all characters, parse that shit and calculate income and asset tax
580and go full Real World with tax breaks, higher taxes for specific things, etc
581
582Berend Antollare [3:22 AM]
583I mean, to a certain extend you could then say rorqs should pay for their own SRP
584
585Adrian Atruin [3:22 AM]
586(I mean, BHD is a dead sig anyway)
587
588Berend Antollare [3:22 AM]
589We don't do that for good reason
590
591Jana Halley [3:23 AM]
592No, but I don't see why a newbro in a vexor should pay for cap SRP for a Rorq drop if the Rorq doesn't pay
593
594Berend Antollare [3:23 AM]
595So the tendency to say they mine/rat a lot which costs ISK in upgrades isn't completely 'fair' either imo
596
597Bisness Pirates [3:23 AM]
598Well
599In the end you somehow do pay for your own SRP
600Because of the taxes
601
602Berend Antollare [3:24 AM]
603I mean, as Jana said, not really
604
605Bisness Pirates [3:24 AM]
606It's just that you don't get the blow all at once
607
608Jana Halley [3:24 AM]
609A Rorq miner that only mines anoms currently does not pay any taxes
610
611Berend Antollare [3:24 AM]
612You can mine, sell the ore through contracts and never pay taxes
613
614Bisness Pirates [3:25 AM]
615And that little bit that the newbro gets for the Cap SRP fund done by his ratting does benefit him by creating a stronger brave.
616The alliance having money to spend is a benefit to everyone
617
618Jana Halley [3:27 AM]
619I still think it's unfair that a newbro earning 10m an hour in a Vexor has to pay more taxes than someone multiboxing six Rorqs
620
621Bisness Pirates [3:27 AM]
622Oh yeah definitely
623But I'm completely in favour of starting to tax mining :stuck_out_tongue:
624
625Jana Halley [3:28 AM]
626And I think it's more important to figure out how to tax those ISK printers than five dudes that hop into a womhole once a month
627
628Berend Antollare [3:29 AM]
629But then again, why should the Vexor pay and the Venture not?
630
631Bisness Pirates [3:30 AM]
632There is the argument to be made that because of how the mining tax would work it would hurt more because the taxes are all due at the same time
633Instead of being taking from your paycheck like ratting taxes
634So you definitely have to be careful with that
635
636Jana Halley [3:31 AM]
637I agree with that, just a flat tax rate for anyone. Progressive tax brackets are nice, but considering that ratting taxes are an automatic flat system that I don't see us getting rid off, make it fair for everyone
638Eh, that works with moon mining already
639
640Bisness Pirates [3:31 AM]
641technically flat taxes are the least fair type of taxes because they hit the poor disproportionally more than the rich.
642But I'm more saying, just be careful about it :stuck_out_tongue:
643Also, it's a flat tax for ratting because you can't do a progressive one.
644
645Berend Antollare [3:32 AM]
646And I'd be against Venture tax cause as mentioned before we'd be the only newbro alliance doing that
647
648Bisness Pirates [3:33 AM]
649For mining since the infrastructure would be all brave side anyway so a progressive system would be possible without too much coding.
650
651Berend Antollare [3:33 AM]
652And if I don't sell the ore immediately but build stuff with it, I pay repro taxes, build taxes and market taxes
653
654Jana Halley [3:33 AM]
655It's fair bewteen ratters and miners, compared to taxing the vexor 10% and the venture 1%
656
657Berend Antollare [3:33 AM]
658How would you account for that?
659
660Bisness Pirates [3:34 AM]
661You would assume every ore is being refined, build with and then sold internally
662
663Jana Halley [3:34 AM]
664As I mentioned in the original post, I'd put the tax rate on mining so that tax + reprocessing fee = 10% of value
665
666Bisness Pirates [3:35 AM]
667So you pick an overall tax rate for that chain, let's say the same as ratting taxes and move some sliders around on where to tax so that you don't hit one group too much
668Like, with the infrastructure in place you can do a lot of cool shit with changing tax rates to incentivize different things (edited) 
669From progressive tax to taxing different ore at different rates to avoid cherry picking.
670It would also be awesome if CCP gave more sliders to play around for that
671Like set a tax for specific items on the market
672
673Meha Taredi [4:47 AM]
674Poor blue doughnut looks distraught after the SOTA.
675img_20190516_134306.jpg 
676
677
678Jellel Hakkim [5:26 AM]
679Sov battles being described as “weaponized boredom” is absolutely perfect. Great name for our next structure bash fleet.
680
681Garad Martar [5:55 AM]
682To be honest, and I know this is a controversial opinion. But I'd be taxing both ratting and mining at 20% of all profits
683If there's a feasible way to do it XD
684Now i accept that numbers like that are probably totally unfeasible (edited) 
685But if you want Supercap SRP and stuff. That's the kind of compromise you need to make
686
687Indybro/Wang Cavin-Guang [5:57 AM]
688Just start renting some pipe systems :sun: rent tax and ratting tax
689
690Meha Taredi [6:00 AM]
691Meh if you can get 1 super you probably need less help getting a second one than a guy ratting in a VNI would need that 10 percent difference. Actions in a newbie corp should be aimed towards improving player retention and super pilots should already be well retained compared to newer pilots struggling to make ISK.
692
693Bisness Pirates [6:01 AM]
694Yeah, while super SRP is nice things like more newbie focused programs, creating activities like deployments or even better normal cap SRP is more important.
695
696Meha Taredi [6:02 AM]
697Im sure the money will go both ways.
69820% is a bit much tho. Like not even Ottoman Turkey levied more than 10% of production. It was actually called a 'tenther' or 'desyatuk' in bg.
699
700Bisness Pirates [6:07 AM]
701Eeeh, most countries do nowadays :stuck_out_tongue:
702
703Meha Taredi [6:08 AM]
704A newbies income in eVE is much more comparable to old timey subsistence farming than present day paychecks since almost everything that's earned goes towards necessities like skills doctrines etc. While very little is left over for frivolous spending.
705
706Bisness Pirates [6:08 AM]
707just the average world wide corporate tax is above 20% :stuck_out_tongue:
708
709Meha Taredi [6:08 AM]
710Yeah but see above :P
711
712Bisness Pirates [6:08 AM]
713Posted at the same time :stuck_out_tongue:
714
715Meha Taredi [6:09 AM]
716I was expecting that argument.
717
718Bisness Pirates [6:09 AM]
719Though that's why I would say that the best way to do it is a progressive tax system.
720Like, in a lot of countries here the poor also spend most of their money on necessities and have little left for frivolous spending.
721The solution is to tax them less and give them subsidies
722
723Meha Taredi [6:10 AM]
724Yeah but if you overdo it people will switch income streams to something untaxable like station trading on alts.
725
726Jellel Hakkim [6:10 AM]
727^^^
728
729Bisness Pirates [6:10 AM]
730Definitely don't do over do it yeah
731
732Jellel Hakkim [6:11 AM]
733I know this is a no politics zone but progressive taxes work as follows: the wealthy figure out how to avoid them, the poor pay nothing, and the middle gets squeezed. Please don’t kick me.
734
735Bisness Pirates [6:12 AM]
736Don't worry, I doubt Cagali is going to be harsh on us for drawing paralels to the real world when discussing the announcement of more taxes :stuck_out_tongue:
737
738Cagali Cagali [6:12 AM]
739100% tax for any dissenters
740
741Jinx De'Caire [6:12 AM]
742image.png 
743
744CAGALI IS TOO POPULAR, MAKES THE REST OF DOJO LOOK BAD
745
746Jellel Hakkim [6:13 AM]
747I’m all for it! Count me in!
748
749Bisness Pirates [6:13 AM]
750200% tax for those who agree with it btw
751
752Jellel Hakkim [6:13 AM]
753I object! This is terrible!
754
755Sir Trekkypj [6:14 AM]
756Can loyalists get a rebate?
757
758Jellel Hakkim [6:15 AM]
759Being real for a second - after a four year break with this game, Brave has been the reason I’ve stayed engaged after coming back. You dudes are fantastic. Taught me all the new things, made this fun again. Tax me whatever, TBH.
760YOU CAN’T TAX LOVE :slightly_smiling_face:
761
762Bisness Pirates [6:17 AM]
763Also that isn't actually anything that has to do with a tax system being progressive, a progressive tax system is just:
764First X amount you pay Y taxes on it
765Next A amount you pay B taxes on it
766Anything above that you pay P taxes on it.
767Jellel Hakkim
768I know this is a no politics zone but progressive taxes work as follows: the wealthy figure out how to avoid them, the poor pay nothing, and the middle gets squeezed. Please don’t kick me.
769Posted in #criticise-cagaliToday at 6:11 AMView message
770and add in as many tax brackets as you want.
771The rest of the real world aspects related to that can be talked about in #danger-irl-politics through projecting you mind onto that white screen and getting irrationally mad.
772
773Jellel Hakkim [6:19 AM]
774Lol
775
776Bisness Pirates [6:21 AM]
777But to summarise all the tax talk for those who don't want to scroll up and read whatever ungodly amount of  comments we made on it
778
779Meha Taredi [6:23 AM]
780We all become pirates and take what we need by force. Then cagali takes what the alliance needs from us with slightly more force.
781
782Bisness Pirates [6:24 AM]
783tl;dr:
784Concerns regarding newbros getting overtaxed
785Concerns of being taxed double if you mind yourself, then make the stuff and then again also sell it on the market.
786If the mining tax should maybe be progressive to fix the newbro concerns.
787How you could play with taxes to encourage things like people not cherry picking when mining.
788
789Meha Taredi [6:25 AM]
790If you tax initial producers secondary producers get taxed by the product increasing in price. You can't have VAT in EVE that'd inflate prices too much IMO.
791
792Bisness Pirates [6:26 AM]
793We do tax them though
794There is an indy tax
795It's pretty small though
796And then there is the market tax
797So well, we have VAT
798It's lower than the VAT we have on essentials here in the netherlands, but it's still a couple % in eve.
799
800Indybro/Wang Cavin-Guang [6:31 AM]
801Also, raise science taxes. LSky had a group dedicated to this, science taxes are either 1% or 3%. At 1%, a titan copy costs 22m, and for a bpc that sells for like 100x that, science taxes should be atleast 10%
802even though the alliance doesn't get most of it
803if you're increasing small drips, it'll help
804and its a quick fix, no programming, no nothing
805
806Koffee Break [6:32 AM]
807^ science and refining are two things that have built in gradients to scaling that are ez moves for tax
808
809Indybro/Wang Cavin-Guang [6:32 AM]
810@lskynlx you need to remake your tax group
811
812Koffee Break [6:32 AM]
813Frankly I don't think anyone should look at mining except Metric and give him time to think of another brilliancy because he's really damn good at that
814
815Metric Candy [6:33 AM]
816:heart:
817
818Indybro/Wang Cavin-Guang [6:33 AM]
819how much do brave clone bays cost?
820
821Bisness Pirates [6:33 AM]
822There is not much brilliancy needed for taxing mining though :stuck_out_tongue:
823
824Indybro/Wang Cavin-Guang [6:33 AM]
825wow
826rude
827
828Bisness Pirates [6:33 AM]
829Just programming work that is already done for the moon mining tax
830
831Koffee Break [6:35 AM]
832The other big one is the GE- market, which volume is kinda decided on how many fun fleets are going out of there, before alliance super subsidy or srp is prioritized I think it's worth revisiting paying FCs, they drive so much more than just content
833
834Bisness Pirates [6:35 AM]
835The hard part is setting the tax rate :stuck_out_tongue:
836Paying FCs is one of those things that doesn't help too much tbqh
837
838Koffee Break [6:35 AM]
839Exactly, just let that beautiful mind stare at it for a bit he'll nail it :D
840
841Bisness Pirates [6:35 AM]
842Because you etiher like it or you don't.
843Though I'm sure any of the FCs won't mind some extra ISK :stuck_out_tongue:
844
845Indybro/Wang Cavin-Guang [6:36 AM]
846plot how much tax revenue is made through GE against how many fun fleets are called :woke: and then pay FCs something less than that
847
848Koffee Break [6:37 AM]
849I don't mean bribing for fleets, more that if one really wanted to only FC (never talked to him about it but think of WTF) and was newer/poorer in game, it could be an option.
850
851Bisness Pirates [6:37 AM]
852Though this is how I think the mining tax rate should be pretty much set:
853Assume you would sell it immediately on the GE- and then just make the ore tax so that you're taxed 10%(or whatever other number)
854Then the refining tax you set in such a way that the extra ISK you gain from refining is also taxed at a total of 10% through the refining tax + market tax.
855And same for the manufacturing tax.
856I propose paying more than that :kappa:
857Indybro/Wang Cavin-Guang
858plot how much tax revenue is made through GE against how many fun fleets are called :woke: and then pay FCs something less than that
859Posted in #criticise-cagaliToday at 6:36 AMView message
860
861Indybro/Wang Cavin-Guang [6:38 AM]
862Bisness doesn't get paid anything
863
864Jana Halley [6:38 AM]
865Currently the Dojo pays FCs for their first three fleets to encourage new FCs. 200, 100, 50m
866
867Bisness Pirates [6:39 AM]
868Yeah, encouraging people to try FCing out is better ISK spent.
869Mostly because some ISK isn't going to keep people FCing
870Unless it's really ridicilious
871
872Swakhammer [6:42 AM]
873If an anom tax is going to happen, how will it be implemented? A bill each week like the moon tax? if that is the case will there be a place we can see up to date taxes owed like the moon tax?
874
875Bisness Pirates [6:43 AM]
876I would assume exactly like the moon taxes
877and I would assume that the moon tax just turns into the regular mining tax with maybe moongoo just having a different rate.
878(or the same, idk, that's all up to cagali to decide, you can do a lot of fancy things with it)
879
880Swakhammer [6:50 AM]
881Hmmm I need to build up a tax nest egg.
882
883LSky NLX [7:00 AM]
884@Indybro Wang Cavin-Guang no you
885
886Indybro/Wang Cavin-Guang [7:00 AM]
887:reeesun:
888
889Effeckted ShadowLord [7:13 AM]
890@Who how was it FCing in December. How many times did I hear you say you had to go crab to replace fc boats.
891
892Bisness Pirates [7:18 AM]
893? Was FC SRP and the FC hangar removed or something?
894
895Effeckted ShadowLord [7:26 AM]
896Srp =/= replacement price of a ship in brave space. In addition if your are consistently FCing things that's time you're giving up to krab and increase personal wealth. So FCs should be doing it for community service?
897
898Bisness Pirates [7:40 AM]
899hmm, while I can't quickly find my old SRP requests because new SRP website from what I can remember the SRP covered pretty much the full ship even in Brave space(because I think they often didn't bother with insurance though I might be remembering wrong)
900And my point is more that ISK isn't going to be a driving factor for pretty much all FCs.
901Think of it like becoming a teacher, you don't become it for the money, you become it because you want to teach people.
902
903Effeckted ShadowLord [7:41 AM]
904It shouldn't be a driving factor but they should be compensated reasonably for their time and service.
905
906Effeckted ShadowLord [7:41 AM]
907We also pay teachers
908Meagerly but that's for politics
909I can tell you specifically that basi srp doesn't cover the full fit in brave space.
910
911Bisness Pirates [7:43 AM]
912The payment through SRP is already quite a bit of available payment because it means you don't need to rebuy ships(unlike with food in the real world).
913Basi SRP =/= FC SRP
914
915Effeckted ShadowLord [7:43 AM]
916Dictors are 70m cost closet to 100m
917Onyxs are 330m
918We see a pattern?
919
920Bisness Pirates [7:43 AM]
921Like FC SRP back then was just straight up 100% zkill value.
922
9235ilent 5hift [7:43 AM]
924T2 Logi SRP is pretty horrendous currently
925
926Pak Feury [7:44 AM]
927You shouldn't tax someone more because they make more. Everyone contributes their 10% share off what they make (except belt miners who dont pay taxes, and danger zone with 6% tax rate)
928
929Bisness Pirates [7:44 AM]
930And I'm not 100% sure if insurance was factored in or not but I don't think so(though that didn't matter for things like DNIs and commandships anyway)
931
932Nistam Kanjus [7:44 AM]
933Wait. Danger zone is a tax haven?
934
935AlmafuerteUK [7:44 AM]
936In fairness the SRP is based on zKill values, would be far worse if it was based on the i game values :wink:
937
938Nistam Kanjus [7:44 AM]
939Can we... not do that?
940
941Yukiko Kami [7:44 AM]
942rorqs taxed 90%
943
944Bisness Pirates [7:44 AM]
945>You shouldn't tax someone more because they make more. Everyone contributes their 10% share off what they make (except belt miners who dont pay taxes, and danger zone with 6% tax rate)
946
947Why not? Like for example 10% of what a newbie makes matters for them a lot more than 10% of what Rorq miner makes
948
949Yukiko Kami [7:44 AM]
950everyone else 10
951
952Bisness Pirates [7:45 AM]
953And keep it to in EVE
954
955Nistam Kanjus [7:45 AM]
956I remember taxes being forced on corps at 10%. Why is danger zone any different?
957
9585ilent 5hift [7:45 AM]
959I second Yukiko
960
961Bisness Pirates [7:45 AM]
962before this channel actually turns into #danger-irl-politics :stuck_out_tongue:
963
964Yukiko Kami [7:45 AM]
965wait DZ has 6%
966:boot:
967
968AlmafuerteUK [7:45 AM]
969Delete Rorquals
970Problem solved
971
972Bisness Pirates [7:45 AM]
973No, more rorquals and more taxes
974
975Yukiko Kami [7:45 AM]
976I hope 90% tax solves that on our end
977
9785ilent 5hift [7:45 AM]
979DEQC was forced to change their tax rate from 5% corp :angry:
980
981Bisness Pirates [7:45 AM]
982Then when all our rorq pilots leave delete them
983
984AlmafuerteUK [7:46 AM]
985We were a tax haven apparently
986
987Nistam Kanjus [7:46 AM]
988Exactly @5ilent 5hift. Fair taxes for everyone.
989
990Bisness Pirates [7:46 AM]
991Seems we finally figured out why they left
9925ilent 5hift
993DEQC was forced to change their tax rate from 5% corp :angry:
994Posted in #criticise-cagaliToday at 7:45 AMView message
995
996AlmafuerteUK [7:46 AM]
997It’s not our fault the other corps couldn’t compete ;)
998
999Bisness Pirates [7:46 AM]
1000:kappa:
1001Also I prefer using :italy: to kick people
1002why do we not have an :italy: emote!
1003I need a good boot damnit!
1004
1005AlmafuerteUK [7:47 AM]
1006Ask Xenuria to campaign on your behalf
1007
1008Chagrin Case [7:47 AM]
1009:mussolini:
1010@bisnesspirate
1011
1012Bisness Pirates [7:47 AM]
1013Why do we have that emote?
1014
1015Chagrin Case [7:47 AM]
1016Because I like it
1017:mussolini:
1018
10195ilent 5hift [7:48 AM]
1020(Psst, you can add your own emotes :5ilent:)
1021
1022Bisness Pirates [7:48 AM]
1023I know
1024
1025Stars Storm [7:48 AM]
1026:nom:
1027
1028Bisness Pirates [7:48 AM]
1029But I don't have a good italy emote lying around :stuck_out_tongue:
1030
10315ilent 5hift [7:48 AM]
1032To Google! :grin:
1033
1034AlmafuerteUK [7:48 AM]
1035Have you tried google?
1036It’s great
1037
10385ilent 5hift [7:49 AM]
1039:ban-stamp1::ban-stamp2:
1040
1041Bisness Pirates [7:49 AM]
1042https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/331/288/371.png
1043https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/331/288/371.png
1044I'm just getting that
1045
10465ilent 5hift [7:49 AM]
1047I mean
1048
1049Bisness Pirates [7:49 AM]
1050and lots of italian flags
1051
1052Stars Storm [7:50 AM]
1053:it:
1054
10555ilent 5hift [7:50 AM]
1056https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41mGWIRNs8L._SY450_.jpg
1057https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41mGWIRNs8L._SY450_.jpg
1058
1059Pak Feury [8:00 AM]
1060replied to a thread:
1061
1062A super Ratter pays 30mil in taxes an hour, a carrier 15mil an hour, a VNI 5mil. No one's money is worth more than someone else's, newbie or not.View newer replies
1063I only know DZ was at 6% because I was looking and thouht about joining to evade taxes...
1064
1065AlmafuerteUK [8:12 AM]
1066@bisnesspirate when will you be taking a fleet out next?
1067
1068Garad Martar [8:14 AM]
1069He doesn't do fleets. Only memes
1070
1071AlmafuerteUK [8:15 AM]
1072So why is he arguing against compensating FCs for their talent & time?
1073It’s an investment in your people
1074
1075Bisness Pirates [8:18 AM]
1076Probably when I've settled in properly again. Trying to figure out what goes in what staging and if I should import or just buy from the market, etc.
1077AlmafuerteUK
1078@bisnesspirate when will you be taking a fleet out next?
1079Posted in #criticise-cagaliToday at 8:12 AMView message
1080To the person you're taxing it does matter. 5 million is going to be a lot more for the guy ratting in a VNI than the 30m for the super pilot.
1081Pak Feury
1082A super Ratter pays 30mil in taxes an hour, a carrier 15mil an hour, a VNI 5mil. No one's money is worth more than someone else's, newbie or not.
1083From a thread in #criticise-cagaliToday at 8:00 AMView reply
1084
1085Garad Martar [8:19 AM]
1086Because its criticise cagali. Bring up a serious point: meme, raise an issue:meme, actually want to discuss something:meme
1087
1088Bisness Pirates [8:19 AM]
1089I'm arguing against paying FCs because I don't see much gain for it.
1090
1091Garad Martar [8:19 AM]
1092More FC's would be one gain
1093
1094Bisness Pirates [8:19 AM]
1095Except that I doubt it would increase the FC count in the long run.
1096A nice example would be the dojo classes Jinx and Cagali have been paying for people to run them for ages but it didn't really create more of them after the initial burst for some ISK(and that burst was even just an extra class or two)
1097
1098Garad Martar [8:21 AM]
1099Are you serious?
1100FC'ing in an alliance of this size isn't fun for most people
1101
1102AlmafuerteUK [8:22 AM]
1103Essentially: “it doesn’t benefit me, so I’m against it”
1104
1105Garad Martar [8:22 AM]
1106It takes an incentive
1107
1108AlmafuerteUK [8:22 AM]
1109If you value your time at 0, that’s up to you
1110
1111Jinx De'Caire [8:23 AM]
1112Bisness we have more classes last year then ever before :)
1113
1114AlmafuerteUK [8:23 AM]
1115Don’t assume the same for everyone else
1116@jinxdecaire with the mic drop
1117
1118Bisness Pirates [8:23 AM]
1119Except it would the moment I start FCing again? Like I literally just subbed again today. Gimme some time before I start FCing again.
1120AlmafuerteUK
1121Essentially: “it doesn’t benefit me, so I’m against it”
1122Posted in #criticise-cagaliToday at 8:22 AMView message
1123
1124Garad Martar [8:23 AM]
1125It's not about that business
1126Jesus christ I heard the whistling noise as that went over your head
1127
1128AlmafuerteUK [8:24 AM]
1129You said you don’t think FCs should be paid, so I guess you could refuse the payment, or donate it to dojo in that case
1130
1131Garad Martar [8:24 AM]
1132His point is - you don't need the payment, hence it wouldn't benefit you
1133
1134Bisness Pirates [8:24 AM]
1135Huh, didn't notice that too much tbqh, I can remember there being more back in catch 1.0 days but we were also a lot bigger then. Just wondering how many of those people bothered to request for the ISK(mostly because I know I have not bothered to collect that reward in the past :stuck_out_tongue: )
1136Jinx De'Caire
1137Bisness we have more classes last year then ever before :)
1138Posted in #criticise-cagaliToday at 8:23 AMView message
1139
1140Avend Avalhar [8:25 AM]
1141Paying FCs should be secondary to getting the FCs the tools and resources to be successful.
1142
1143And I would also rank paying FCs behind measures to increase fleet participation and fleet doctrine strength.
1144
1145Bisness Pirates [8:25 AM]
1146No? My main point is that paying FCs wouldn't bring much, if any, increase in fleets at all.
1147And that that money could be better spend elsewhere.
1148
1149AlmafuerteUK [8:25 AM]
1150But it would improve things, even at least a little yes?
1151
1152Avend Avalhar [8:25 AM]
1153U might argue paying FCs would improve some of those areas and u may be correct
1154
1155AlmafuerteUK [8:25 AM]
1156So why would you not want any improvement at all?
1157
1158Jinx De'Caire [8:25 AM]
1159Bisness I paid out every class :)
1160
1161Garad Martar [8:25 AM]
1162Where's your conviction in that coming from. What's your evidence to support your stance bisness
1163
1164Bisness Pirates [8:25 AM]
1165I doubt it tbqh.
1166AlmafuerteUK
1167But it would improve things, even at least a little yes?
1168Posted in #criticise-cagaliToday at 8:25 AMView message
1169
1170
1171Avend Avalhar [8:25 AM]
1172But must ppl run fleets bc they have fun
1173Key to everything is to have fun.
1174If you love what you do you will never work a day in your life.
1175
1176Garad Martar [8:26 AM]
1177I can give you evidence to the contrary - goons pay their fc's. And they have a lot of fc's and fleets.
1178
1179Bisness Pirates [8:26 AM]
1180hmm, k, good to know that that finally picked up. Though I know there were definitely periods where Cagali went like: WHY IS NO ON LEADING CLASSES I HAVE BEEN OFFERING THIS ISK FOR LIKE 3 MONTHS NOW.
1181Jinx De'Caire
1182Bisness I paid out every class :)
1183Posted in #criticise-cagaliToday at 8:25 AMView message
1184
1185Garad Martar [8:26 AM]
1186So what's your supporting evidence
1187
1188Bisness Pirates [8:26 AM]
1189Goons are gigantic
1190
1191Garad Martar [8:26 AM]
1192You've offered nothing but "it wont work"
1193
1194Bisness Pirates [8:26 AM]
1195We used to have a lot of active FCs when we were gigantic as well
1196
1197AlmafuerteUK [8:26 AM]
1198So is brave
1199Just shy of 10k members until yesterday
1200
1201Card Bross [8:27 AM]
1202Maybe just let the member of brave who actually play figure out what they want to do. DEQC pilots arguing with slack warriors is kinda pointless
1203
1204Koffee Break [8:27 AM]
1205ah man card got me there
1206
1207Garad Martar [8:27 AM]
1208Yeah. I'm not gonna stop arguing. Because here or not I genuinely care about the success of brave
1209
1210Bisness Pirates [8:28 AM]
1211Goons got 7 times as many people actively participating in PVP according to zkill
1212
1213AlmafuerteUK [8:29 AM]
1214Wherever you draw the line is just semantics
1215Brave is a large entity in new Eden
1216
1217Garad Martar [8:30 AM]
1218Instead of picking holes in my evidence, which by the way is the only that's been offered here. Can you give anything to support your claim that "it wouldn't work"
1219Or should we all listen to bisness because he says so
1220Long story short. I think it's worth a try. If it doesn't work. Stop it. But why not try it
1221
1222Bisness Pirates [8:31 AM]
1223I'm saying it's logical for Goons to have 7 times as many FCs as Brave, and 7 times as many members in fleet.
1224
1225Garad Martar [8:31 AM]
1226Point...missed
1227
1228Bisness Pirates [8:32 AM]
1229So if you're looking at that I would argue that paying your FCs doesn't even make that much a difference.
1230
1231Card Bross [8:32 AM]
1232Brave isn't about that subcap life anymore. It's all rorqs and supers
1233
1234Garad Martar [8:33 AM]
1235No, and it might not cost you that much either. But yknow what. Itll make your fc's feel valued
1236
1237Bisness Pirates [8:33 AM]
1238The again, my main point with FCing is that the biggest reason people don't do it is because they don't enjoy it and rather do something else. ISK isn't going to do a lot to get those people to FC.
1239
1240AlmafuerteUK [8:33 AM]
1241If it makes any difference to improve things it’s worth doing
1242
1243Jinx De'Caire [8:33 AM]
1244How much deqc grumbling is there in here :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:
1245
1246AlmafuerteUK [8:33 AM]
1247We might be leaving, but we still care
1248
1249Bisness Pirates [8:34 AM]
1250Yes, but could the ISK be better spent elsewhere? I would say yes
1251AlmafuerteUK
1252If it makes any difference to improve things it’s worth doing
1253Posted in #criticise-cagaliToday at 8:33 AMView message
1254
1255Garad Martar [8:34 AM]
1256There are people in this alliance who led fleets for months. Daily fleets. Got no appreciation or recognition and then stopped doing it. You've lost FC's that way.
1257
1258AlmafuerteUK [8:34 AM]
1259Apparently more than some people who are staying by the looks of it
1260
1261Koffee Break [8:34 AM]
1262:shakesfistatcloud:
1263
1264Bisness Pirates [8:34 AM]
1265Pay ISK for people to try out FCing like Jinx is.
1266Make sure that FCs can just grab a ship from the FC hangar.
1267
1268Garad Martar [8:34 AM]
1269None of us are advocating stopping doing that
1270
1271Bisness Pirates [8:34 AM]
1272Make it so that they can give out ships without a problem.
1273
1274AlmafuerteUK [8:35 AM]
1275Dojo doesn’t have a funding problem
1276
1277Effeckted ShadowLord [8:35 AM]
1278OK so there time is still free? So it's sill a communtity service?
1279
1280Garad Martar [8:35 AM]
1281Above all those. Pay decent logistics SRP
1282
1283Effeckted ShadowLord [8:35 AM]
1284Lol you guys are silly. Gaslight yourselves and wonder why things happen the way they do. @cagali that sota was a hot mess, I expected more with 18 months to prepare but something tells me that was reactionary rather than planned. So long and thanks for all fish
1285
1286AlmafuerteUK [8:35 AM]
1287Jinx has confirmed this many times over
1288
1289Bisness Pirates [8:35 AM]
1290Make it so that you could for example go on a deployment that's fully funded by the alliance.
1291Yeah, but Dojo ain't going to be paying the salary of all the FCs
1292
1293AlmafuerteUK [8:36 AM]
1294So why bring up the dojo FC program?
1295
1296Bisness Pirates [8:36 AM]
1297Because that is something I DO think works.
1298
1299AlmafuerteUK [8:36 AM]
1300If it’s irrelevant?
1301
1302Bisness Pirates [8:36 AM]
1303And as way of money better spent
1304
1305AlmafuerteUK [8:36 AM]
1306The money is already being spent...
1307You’re about to increase income through tax reforms
1308
1309Card Bross [8:38 AM]
1310Alpha talwars is a great program, but if that's the only fc engagement tool, what is the point of having your omega, doctrine trained characters in Brave? Just unsub and fly with alpha wing for free
1311
1312AlmafuerteUK [8:38 AM]
1313So from a fiscal perspective, the isk is there to pay FCs
1314
1315Card Bross [8:38 AM]
1316Brave needs additional fleet encouragement tools also
1317
1318Garad Martar [8:39 AM]
1319Brave needs more FC's. All of your other points about where to spend isk are valid bisness. I don't disagree. But FC's need to feel actively valued. Paying them even a nominal amount helps them to feel like they are
1320
1321Jana Halley [8:39 AM]
1322Just as a slight note to that, the Dojo is being funded from donations and because we currently have a good amount of money. That might stay that way, or it might change, but if we ever run into financial problems, I'd assume paying FCs would be one of the first things to go.
1323It's nice that we currently have the isk to encourage new people FCing, but that shouldn't cover for the alliance encouraging FCs
1324
1325Garad Martar [8:40 AM]
1326And you lose nothing by trying it for a period
1327
1328Bisness Pirates [8:40 AM]
1329Is there truly? Because I really doubt that we have enough ISK lying around to pay FCs for every fleet and that we couldn't spend it on something else. We _might_ after that increased tax. But I don't have enough insight into finances right now. But I do know that there're many things Cagali would like to do but there isn't the money for (like increasing SRP)
1330AlmafuerteUK
1331So from a fiscal perspective, the isk is there to pay FCs
1332Posted in #criticise-cagaliToday at 8:38 AMView message
1333
1334Garad Martar [8:41 AM]
1335He's gonna hate me using him as an example. Look at Jonthedonut. Used to lead daily ansiblex save fleets. Stopped because no recognition or appreciation. He's a good FC damnit.
1336
1337Ignacius Kh'orlan [8:42 AM]
1338( Dojo is spending money for education of alliance members, not for paying Brave Military as a side note )
1339
1340Gerold Cadelanne [8:42 AM]
1341<3 John
1342
1343Garad Martar [8:42 AM]
1344^^ I agree with the dojo argument thing. It can't be used as a defence because it might not always be there
1345
1346Koffee Break [8:42 AM]
1347John Quixote*
1348
1349Gerold Cadelanne [8:43 AM]
1350I mean I've gotten very small compensation for doing content in deqc, not that I expected but nor needed it
1351
1352AlmafuerteUK [8:43 AM]
1353Yep
1354
1355Gerold Cadelanne [8:43 AM]
1356But that meant deqc leadership noticed me and my efforts
1357
1358AlmafuerteUK [8:43 AM]
1359Even DEQC pay their FCs
1360
1361Garad Martar [8:43 AM]
1362It's the morale impact that matters
1363It always has been
1364
1365Gerold Cadelanne [8:43 AM]
1366I became driven to make daddy lugs proud because he put faith in me
1367
1368Atoll Penshar [8:43 AM]
1369This channel for the past 3-4 months has been primarily DEQC members, who really really care about the health of BRAVE, arguing into a hostile chasm. We care so much, we continue to argue even after our departure is set. People want an answer to why DEQC is leaving, I can't give you one, every person makes a personal choice, but that is why I'm leaving. :disappointed:
1370
1371AlmafuerteUK [8:45 AM]
1372Pretty much
1373
1374Gerold Cadelanne [8:45 AM]
1375I agree with that, I've played mostly in brave my eve career, on and off, but brave is stagnating. And I don't want that to happen. I want standing fleet to blot out the grid with atron that are shit fit and have a good laugh whether or not we get dunked
1376
1377Koffee Break [8:45 AM]
1378We're like Darla and Brave is the fish in finding nemo
1379I have so much love to give
1380
1381AlmafuerteUK [8:45 AM]
1382And the net result so far has been me receiving complaints about DEQC “shitting up Slack” (edited) 
1383
1384Bisness Pirates [8:45 AM]
1385That is true, but I still doubt it would matter for most in the long run. FCing sucks a lot of the time and you gotta love it.
1386Garad Martar
1387It's the morale impact that matters
1388Posted in #criticise-cagaliToday at 8:43 AMView message
1389
1390Garad Martar [8:46 AM]
1391I can say something similar. I'm leaving because lug says so. But I care a lot about the people in brave. I think its ideals are something rare and there are a hell of a lot of good people here. But the resistance to forward progress by brave's middle management  is staggering.
1392And the hostility towards new ideas engenders a defensive response
1393
1394Bisness Pirates [8:47 AM]
1395I just want to mention that some of these new ideas aren't new.
1396Like paying FCs in Brave is a discussion that has been had before many a time
1397
1398Garad Martar [8:47 AM]
1399Fine not new, different. Also fuck your semantics
1400
1401Bisness Pirates [8:47 AM]
1402If not in here, then in the FC channels or command
1403
1404Indybro/Wang Cavin-Guang [8:48 AM]
1405But old ideas need to be revisited. A few months ago, the idea of mining anoms was out of the question or wasn't a favored approached to help alliance finances, now look.
1406
1407Bisness Pirates [8:48 AM]
1408That is true
1409
1410Gerold Cadelanne [8:49 AM]
1411Yeah, there was a lot of flak when someone in deqc suggested anom taxes
1412Now this
1413:tinfoil:
1414
1415Bisness Pirates [8:50 AM]
1416I mean, I've mining taxes being suggested here several times before. Though I would say there wasn't too much flak. Though that might just because this channel cares waaaaaay too much sometime and doesn't mind paying taxes too much.
1417
1418Gerold Cadelanne [8:50 AM]
1419There was
1420
1421Bisness Pirates [8:50 AM]
1422since mining ledgers*
1423
1424Gerold Cadelanne [8:50 AM]
1425It was a total shitstorm
1426I member
1427
1428Bisness Pirates [8:50 AM]
1429hmmm, didn't notice it being bad on slack.
1430Definitely divided
1431
1432Indybro/Wang Cavin-Guang [8:50 AM]
1433it was bad
1434
1435Bisness Pirates [8:51 AM]
1436But like, I've seen worse.
1437But maybe my tolerance for that is just higher.
1438
1439Ignacius Kh'orlan [8:51 AM]
1440I think the main issue is Brave is poor for some reason
1441And because we have no insight to Braves wallet we can't really propose helpful things
1442
1443Bisness Pirates [8:51 AM]
1444Yeah, we aren't the richest around to my understanding
1445
1446Gerold Cadelanne [8:52 AM]
1447Honestly, taxing rorqs
1448
1449Garad Martar [8:52 AM]
1450Because brave doesn't tax enough, it's great for individual player freedom and wealth. But awful for the alliance as a whole.
1451
1452Gerold Cadelanne [8:52 AM]
1453As they cost a lot for srp with saves
1454
1455Bisness Pirates [8:52 AM]
1456Though alliance wise the biggest difference is that Brave doesn't really tax corporations like other alliances do
1457Aside from BNI, their CEO is a filthy thief who then donates it to the alliance sometimes
1458
1459Jana Halley [8:53 AM]
1460Corps are also relatively free what they can do with their money. Ratting taxes go to the corps, not Brave as an alliance, only the market and reprocessing money + moon mining taxes
1461
1462Bisness Pirates [8:53 AM]
1463^
1464From what I can remember at least how it was a year ago in goons(and I doubt it has changed for them),
1465All corps there had a baseline tax of 10% and that always went to the alliance and any on top of that the corp could keep
1466
1467Garad Martar [8:54 AM]
1468Honestly. Ask all rorq pilots to pay a flat 1b per rorq per month into the alliance coffers. If they don't pay. No saves. 1b per 30 days is minuscule compared to what rorqs make. Do it for supers too
1469
1470Meha Taredi [8:55 AM]
1471Lol no
1472
1473Garad Martar [8:55 AM]
1474Why not
1475
1476Gerold Cadelanne [8:55 AM]
1477It's worth a shot
1478
1479Meha Taredi [8:55 AM]
1480Cuz no
1481
1482Bisness Pirates [8:55 AM]
1483Just tax, like that's easier.
1484
1485Indybro/Wang Cavin-Guang [8:55 AM]
1486Zansha has 15% tax, and we're happy to pay the 5% to the alliance, but the alliance didn't want it
1487
1488Garad Martar [8:55 AM]
1489Dafuq?
1490
1491Bisness Pirates [8:55 AM]
1492And saves people from having to not save rorqs.
1493
1494Gerold Cadelanne [8:55 AM]
1495Meha, why though?
1496
1497Meha Taredi [8:55 AM]
1498I don't make 10bil a month in the rorq to justify a 1bil tax for example
1499
1500Bisness Pirates [8:55 AM]
1501^
1502
1503Ignacius Kh'orlan [8:55 AM]
1504My main question would be, how can other alliances like goons afford better srp and paying fcs and dropping keepstars everyday and how do they differ in isk making from Brave
1505
1506Bisness Pirates [8:56 AM]
1507Like, if you only mine a couple hours a month why mine at all if you gotta pay a 1b flat tax?
1508
1509Garad Martar [8:56 AM]
1510They tax effectively
1511
1512Bisness Pirates [8:56 AM]
1513Just put in a % tax of the ore mined.
1514
1515Gerold Cadelanne [8:56 AM]
1516Realistically, more renters and better taxing
1517
1518Patrick Gisre [8:56 AM]
1519replied to a thread:
1520because not all supers are used for ratting and not all rorqs go out every day or even week.
1521
1522Garad Martar [8:56 AM]
1523Its a poor idea. Sure. It is however the only one I've seen offered today
1524
1525Bisness Pirates [8:56 AM]
1526@Ignacius Kh'orlan The biggest difference is they tax corporations.
1527
1528Meha Taredi [8:56 AM]
1529A 10% tax on mining/ratting is fair
1530
1531Bisness Pirates [8:56 AM]
1532^that is the main idea being offered here
1533
1534Meha Taredi [8:57 AM]
1535Don't forget that the ore/tics builds/buys ships too
1536
1537Warren Morris [8:57 AM]
1538Yeah tax super pilots who risk there 20 bil isk ship to save folks makes perfect sense
1539
1540Bisness Pirates [8:57 AM]
1541And hell, I've also suggested making that fully progressive.
1542We already tax super pilots
1543
1544Garad Martar [8:57 AM]
1545I meant ratting supers you daft bastard. And ofc the idea wouldn't work. I just got you thinking about it
1546
1547Meha Taredi [8:57 AM]
1548Not me cuz i dont rat lol
1549
1550Bisness Pirates [8:57 AM]
1551it's called the standard ratting tax
1552
1553Garad Martar [8:57 AM]
1554That's all I was trying to do
1555
1556Meha Taredi [8:57 AM]
1557I found a loophole
1558
1559Warren Morris [8:58 AM]
1560oh man you know me so well im the biggest daft bastard you will meet XD
1561
1562Indybro/Wang Cavin-Guang [8:58 AM]
1563@Ignacius Kh'orlan Goons have people who work with Goon money to make more goons money.
1564Imagine for example if the buybacks were an alliance level initiative (perhaps with some incentive for the people running them). We would have a lot more money.
1565Goons set up buy orders for things like ore and moon ore, and then certain individuals are tasked with using that to produce ships/doctrines/whatever and seed it on market, or Jita *for the alliance* meaning: all the profit goes to the alliance
1566
1567Jana Halley [8:58 AM]
1568They risk their 20b ship to save 10b ships, but that's beside the point. But yeah, ratting is already taxed and has never been a problem.
1569
1570Meha Taredi [8:58 AM]
1571Well next time get us thinking about something that has a chance to wirk whydontcha :D
1572
1573Bisness Pirates [8:58 AM]
1574That as well
1575Goons got investments all over the place
1576
1577Indybro/Wang Cavin-Guang [8:59 AM]
1578Goons have `active leadership` (not mittani) and they actually have people who delegate roles and so on
1579
1580Bisness Pirates [8:59 AM]
1581Yeah, goons are amazingly organized
1582
1583Garad Martar [8:59 AM]
1584And honestly I think rorqs and ratting supers should  be on a 15% tax due to the srp cost of saves. But that's just me. When I was super ratting I'd have happily given 50% of my income to the alliance warchest if it was spent effectively.
1585
1586Bisness Pirates [9:00 AM]
1587Just the regular 10% tax that is there for ratting and extending it to anomalies seems fine to me as a start.
1588
1589Meha Taredi [9:00 AM]
1590We don't actually l9se that much in rorq saves and rorqs pay a higher absolute value in a 10% world cuz they mine 500% more than a covetor for example.
1591
1592Bisness Pirates [9:00 AM]
1593And like I said, if you want to be fancy you can start do a progressive system.
1594
1595Indybro/Wang Cavin-Guang [9:00 AM]
1596Like Aryth, he produces T2 out of his ass, and there's so much of it in Jita. For example, you can produce JFs profitably using jita price, but if you're getting them for sub jita prices (buying moon ore in null) and then selling in jita, you're making big bank.
1597And its not just JFs, all sorts of T2 ships he's producing.
1598And that's before all the market manipulation stuff
1599
1600Ignacius Kh'orlan [9:00 AM]
1601Next question would be does leadership know how similar entities make isk and does Brave have any chance making money in a similar ways
1602
1603Indybro/Wang Cavin-Guang [9:00 AM]
1604If leadership doesn't let other people also set up and help, then no
1605
1606Meha Taredi [9:01 AM]
1607Literally why percents for taxes are a good idea. Cuz it automatically means you get more of people who earn more and cost more in upkeep
1608
1609Bisness Pirates [9:02 AM]
1610It's why pretty much everyone uses a % tax + progressive system :stuck_out_tongue: And I'm pretty sure that would be the case for EVE as well if there was an easy way to do that for ratting.
1611
1612Darkworlds Shaishi [9:02 AM]
1613So, my two pennies worth: Brave is a wonderful idea and the purpose of providing a learning environment for newbros is great. However, the sheer defensiveness of some people when new ideas are suggested or people playing devil's advocate for the sake of goodness knows what, or memeing on sensible suggestions derails serious discussions that could prevent Brave from stagnating or from improving the things it currently offers (paying FCs, SRP etc). Reading this channel is equivalent to banging your head against the wall. I understand that a lot of us do not have all the information and sometimes ideas are not possible. But rather than a "That idea is a good one, however we can't implement it because of 'xyz'" often the response is a meme or deflected. I have honestly loved my time in Brave and want Brave to be the best it can. I can't see why a 10% mining tax across the board isn't fair. The rorq pilots will pay more isk overall but this will be the same percentage as the newbros, however that is proportionate and fair (in my opinion).
1614
1615Bisness Pirates [9:02 AM]
1616(for mining taxes that would be as easy as setting up the distribution)
1617
1618Darkworlds Shaishi [9:02 AM]
1619Also TL:DR sorry for the wall of text
1620
1621
1622Zavrik Allele [9:04 AM]
1623SRP for supers -> more supers -> more super taxes -> C2 = spacerich^2
1624
1625Garad Martar [9:04 AM]
1626Honestly the Corp taxes cover taxing super ratting. You just need to ask member corps to contribute a portion of their taxes per month
1627
1628Meha Taredi [9:05 AM]
1629If you're offering a 1b flat tax on rorqs you deserve to feel like you're banging your head against a wall.
1630
1631Garad Martar [9:05 AM]
1632Same feeling as talking to you then.
1633
1634Darkworlds Shaishi [9:05 AM]
1635I wasn't @meha_taredi 10% is what I think is fair (same as ratting tax)
1636
1637Meha Taredi [9:05 AM]
1638There's no reason to single out any one moneymaking thing.
1639
1640Patrick Gisre [9:06 AM]
1641corp taxes isn´t discussed as much because noone here thinks they can´t be implement or would hurt brave in the long run.
1642
1643Meha Taredi [9:06 AM]
1644People make both pennies and billions in the same activity based on many different things.
1645
1646Garad Martar [9:07 AM]
1647I also think that indybro's comment regarding alliance owned buybacks is pretty damn good. I've no idea where the isk from the buyback or alvatis goes but there's a load of profit that goes into there regularly
1648
1649Indybro/Wang Cavin-Guang [9:07 AM]
1650it goes into their pockets
1651
1652Meha Taredi [9:07 AM]
1653I think everyone agrees that 10% is fine.
1654
1655Indybro/Wang Cavin-Guang [9:07 AM]
1656they're private groups
1657(unless they're making voluntary donations to the alliance, but that's on them)
1658
1659Ignacius Kh'orlan [9:07 AM]
1660more :communism:
1661
1662Garad Martar [9:07 AM]
1663In that case shut em both down and run an alliance owned one.
1664
1665Ignacius Kh'orlan [9:08 AM]
1666make brave rich again
1667
1668Adrian Atruin [9:08 AM]
1669AFAIK they sometimes do donations
1670
1671Indybro/Wang Cavin-Guang [9:08 AM]
1672A lot of these problems can be fixed by having a more centralized leadership system rather than 'no rules, be classy', goons are a prime example, test too probably but idk abot test
1673
1674Jana Halley [9:08 AM]
1675Buybacks are also a shitton of work, if they earn that money, they deserve it
1676
1677Patrick Gisre [9:08 AM]
1678anom mining is also already taxed, weather it is taxed from the wallet of the miner itself or those that refine that ore doesn´t really matter to the end result. so to say that miners have been tax evading isn´t fair nor accurate. thats called indirect taxing and is done RL with many consumer taxes.
1679
1680Meha Taredi [9:09 AM]
1681I don't trust altruism to cover expenses people tend to do their good deed for the week or month and it keeps them warm inside.
1682
1683Garad Martar [9:09 AM]
1684Holy shit I agree with meha
1685
1686Darkworlds Shaishi [9:10 AM]
1687Anom mining is not taxed, activities that may relate to that are taxed
1688
1689Garad Martar [9:10 AM]
1690Well that's a surprise
1691
1692Meha Taredi [9:10 AM]
1693:D
1694
1695Darkworlds Shaishi [9:11 AM]
1696@Patrick Gisre also those activities that are taxed are used by people who don;t rorq mine as well
1697
1698Nistam Kanjus [9:11 AM]
1699grr. Taxes at 100% now
1700
1701Sir Trekkypj [9:11 AM]
1702Nobody likes the taxman. But there has to be a certain level to properly fund the alliance. We're not the group we were two years ago where a few big donations and some crowdfunding for structures plus some baling twine and duct-tape sufficed.
1703
1704Garad Martar [9:11 AM]
1705I don't know if taxes will even be enough
1706
1707Indybro/Wang Cavin-Guang [9:12 AM]
1708its a start
1709
1710Garad Martar [9:12 AM]
1711Oh I don't disagree
1712
1713Indybro/Wang Cavin-Guang [9:12 AM]
1714tax some more
1715see where it goes
1716tax more or work out other avenues
1717
1718Sir Trekkypj [9:12 AM]
1719if we're going to have proper facilities and programs for our folk we have to have a stable revenue base.
1720
1721Darkworlds Shaishi [9:12 AM]
1722^^^
1723
1724Card Bross [9:12 AM]
1725The Brave "if you want infrastructure, buy your own infrastructure" policy is really, really awful
1726
1727Sir Trekkypj [9:12 AM]
1728We can't do a property tax (which is what municipalities do irl)
1729
1730Garad Martar [9:12 AM]
1731Just. Things like buybacks, marketplace stuff etc. Kinda need to be looked at too
1732
1733Sir Trekkypj [9:13 AM]
1734so we have to tax services and consumption
1735
1736Nistam Kanjus [9:13 AM]
1737Make an official procurement service where half of the profits go to the alliance :kappa:
1738
1739Indybro/Wang Cavin-Guang [9:13 AM]
1740Go for it
1741
1742Card Bross [9:13 AM]
1743The alliance should be collecting income to pay for infrastructure, not relying on altruistic members to buy forts/upgrades
1744
1745Garad Martar [9:13 AM]
1746^^
1747
1748Sir Trekkypj [9:13 AM]
1749TBH I am fine paying taxes so long as it's across the board and fairly distributed
1750and not excessive
1751
1752Garad Martar [9:14 AM]
1753Also broadcast4reps should really have come down by now :P surely we could use a fort somewhere else
1754
1755Indybro/Wang Cavin-Guang [9:14 AM]
1756i think b4r should stay
1757
1758Garad Martar [9:14 AM]
1759Tear down soya factory?
1760
1761Jana Halley [9:14 AM]
1762B4R is there more for sentimental than for strategic reasons
1763
1764Nistam Kanjus [9:14 AM]
1765Yes. Broadcast for reps should stay
1766
1767Garad Martar [9:15 AM]
1768Yknow what. I'm not even going to fix that autoccorect
1769
1770Sir Trekkypj [9:15 AM]
1771lol
1772
1773Garad Martar [9:15 AM]
1774Its soya factory forever for me now
1775
1776Dill vanPickle [9:15 AM]
1777when you take part in an alliance than you will have to pay your fair share for the benefits of an alliance. pretty simple in my opinion
1778
1779Meha Taredi [9:15 AM]
1780Sota factory has a faction bonus to market fuel costs
1781
1782Jana Halley [9:15 AM]
1783First fort we anchored in Catch. Well, second one, the first died just after anchoring
1784
1785Meha Taredi [9:15 AM]
1786That's why the market is there
1787
1788Dill vanPickle [9:15 AM]
1789i would even pay taxes doing explo
1790
1791Meha Taredi [9:15 AM]
1792That's why its called Marginalis :D (edited) 
1793
1794Bisness Pirates [9:16 AM]
1795For corps it's understandable though since they don't pay corp taxes.
1796Card Bross
1797The Brave "if you want infrastructure, buy your own infrastructure" policy is really, really awful
1798Posted in #criticise-cagaliToday at 9:12 AMView message
1799
1800Sir Trekkypj [9:17 AM]
1801Current discussion is because Brave has hit the mature stage of an alliance. What worked as brash, hard-charging youngsters is not working now. Brave has titans!
1802
1803Bisness Pirates [9:17 AM]
1804SOTA Factory is also more sentimental for quite a lot more people since that is the station that many of us have lived in for ages.
1805
1806Sir Trekkypj [9:18 AM]
1807We're not all running around flying eagles and atrons and not giving a crap about if we die in a fire
1808Some of us still are, but many of us have become older, more cautious and seek stability
1809we like certainty, and unfortunately the current meta is amplifying this
1810also, we play with bigger space toys now
1811
1812Yukiko Kami [9:19 AM]
1813disruption! :fire:
1814every system needs disruption to evolve and proof itself
1815
1816Sir Trekkypj [9:20 AM]
1817We have not had to fight or move or evac in how long?
1818
1819Yukiko Kami [9:20 AM]
1820too long
1821
1822Jana Halley [9:20 AM]
1823Evac? Two years
1824
1825Meha Taredi [9:20 AM]
18262.5 years
1827
1828Sir Trekkypj [9:20 AM]
1829I kid you not, I'm sorely tempted to order an Orca from Dunk\
1830
1831Indybro/Wang Cavin-Guang [9:21 AM]
1832*Activate Protocol YUKIKOUP*
1833
1834Jana Halley [9:21 AM]
1835I joined Brave, evaced twoce in two months and haven't had to since then
1836
1837Sir Trekkypj [9:21 AM]
1838The fact that I can build my own is beside the  point lol
1839I joined tail end of our time in DO6
1840
1841Meha Taredi [9:21 AM]
1842I joined shortly before we went to FW
1843
1844Jana Halley [9:22 AM]
1845Dito, just in time to attack two PL astras and then more to Cloud Ring
1846
1847Sir Trekkypj [9:22 AM]
1848yep
1849i lost my viator trying to move my stuff down lol
1850
1851Jana Halley [9:23 AM]
1852I had just bought my first cruiser and it died to a bubble camp :disappointed:
1853
1854Sir Trekkypj [9:23 AM]
1855and to be honest, when PL were making CR a nightmare it was still more fun than recent times
1856
1857Jana Halley [9:23 AM]
1858I didn't even notice that. EUTZ was fine
1859
1860Meha Taredi [9:24 AM]
1861Cloud Ring was pretty bad and DO6 was awful
1862
1863Sir Trekkypj [9:24 AM]
1864i agree, but it wasn't DULL
1865
1866Meha Taredi [9:24 AM]
1867The positive was the infinite content
1868But crabbing was near impossible
1869
1870Bisness Pirates [9:25 AM]
1871I just want Catch to turn into that.
1872And let the krabs krab in Impass
1873
1874Meha Taredi [9:25 AM]
1875Infra people must have been in literal hell
1876Catch was that for the first months
1877But we can't expect content will always come to us
1878
1879Sir Trekkypj [9:26 AM]
1880yeah Catch was fine for a while, we had regular content and that was fun
1881
1882Yukiko Kami [9:26 AM]
1883> a nightmare it was still more fun than recent times
1884that
1885tl;dr; set the world on fire
1886
1887Meha Taredi [9:26 AM]
1888I remember Business would FC corms almost every evening@
1889
1890Indybro/Wang Cavin-Guang [9:27 AM]
1891move back to fw
1892become what fedup was to fw
1893
1894Garad Martar [9:28 AM]
1895I suppose I should say what I came on to say before I got drawn into an argument.
1896I'm out, uninstalling slack for the remainder of my time here. @cagali thanks for my time in brave.  Hope the alliance prospers and grows. There are so many good people here that I wish all the best to. Hope you get to go in the direction you want. I'll roam the odd solo dread to catch every now and again :) cya.
1897
1898Sir Trekkypj [9:28 AM]
1899My suggestion: find a new home that is not right on top of our blue friends
1900
1901Meha Taredi [9:28 AM]
1902I go to fw and shoot at everyone
1903Much better
1904
1905Sir Trekkypj [9:29 AM]
1906We can be safe and stagnate, or we can go take a risk and have fun dying in a dumpsterfire
1907
1908Indybro/Wang Cavin-Guang [9:29 AM]
1909move back to rahadalon
1910
1911Yukiko Kami [9:29 AM]
1912@greywarden90 :spock-hand: have fun where you are going
1913
1914Meha Taredi [9:29 AM]
1915Joining fw is a mistake with the current mechanics (edited) 
1916
1917Bisness Pirates [9:29 AM]
1918Fights in corms are amazing
1919There were definitely some great fights we had in FW
1920That siege of that unimportant system next to our staging, that was great.
1921I don't think we ever ended up getting it did we?
1922
1923Sir Trekkypj [9:30 AM]
1924Part of the problem is that we started off not caring about the meta game and now we're in it up to our necks
1925
1926Berend Antollare [9:30 AM]
1927Ok, couple of things. Just because they stood out to me.
19281. @greywarden90 so you want to pay FCs to feel valued? How about the rest of the people who voluntarily work for Brave?
19292. I'm fully aware that I might sometimes come across as 'devils advocate' but at least for me that's only to see if people have thought their ideas through. I never intent/intended to discourage people from trying/doing things with their idea.
19303. I'm all for a 10% tax to see how we could use that ISK, imo it should be progressive but either way ok
1931
1932Jana Halley [9:30 AM]
19337o @greywarden90
1934
1935Sir Trekkypj [9:30 AM]
1936@greywarden90 good luck
1937
1938Bisness Pirates [9:31 AM]
1939I would love to just have some holiday home for Brave literally next to Horde
1940
1941Berend Antollare [9:31 AM]
1942Also 7o @greywarden90, enjoyed having you around. Hope you some day fly with me again
1943
1944Garad Martar [9:31 AM]
1945Respond to berend or go xD
1946
1947Sir Trekkypj [9:31 AM]
1948lol
1949
1950Bisness Pirates [9:31 AM]
1951Like alpha talwars but for everyone.
1952
1953Indybro/Wang Cavin-Guang [9:31 AM]
1954Go
1955
1956Bisness Pirates [9:32 AM]
1957So I can't respond to the other things going on in this channel like the feeling that those nightmare times felt a lot more fun for quite a lot of people?
1958
1959Garad Martar [9:32 AM]
1960Ok. I'll say one thing. I've always advocated for the morale impact. It's something I've said repeatedly. Yes I would also say anyone who volunteers a service should  e compensated. From IT to hauling to station management. All of it. @berendantollare
1961
1962Bisness Pirates [9:33 AM]
1963And the comment about maybe moving to somewhere less blue
1964
1965Adrian Atruin [9:33 AM]
19667o @greywarden90
1967(But installing slack, whyyyy)
1968
1969Garad Martar [9:34 AM]
19707o all. Out for real this time :P
1971
1972cDiddy Orti [9:34 AM]
19737o!
1974
1975Sir Trekkypj [9:34 AM]
1976i mean, we don't have to leave catch or impass. But might be fun to have a few systems away from our core territory where we can pick fights and basically experiment
1977
1978Bisness Pirates [9:35 AM]
1979Where would we go in catch or impass though?
1980
1981Sir Trekkypj [9:35 AM]
1982like a colony
1983
1984Bisness Pirates [9:35 AM]
1985Because we're quite a bit surrounded by blues.
1986
1987Sir Trekkypj [9:35 AM]
1988yep
1989
1990Jana Halley [9:35 AM]
1991NPC null does that job quite well
1992
1993Bisness Pirates [9:35 AM]
1994Yeah, but then you're in NPC null :stuck_out_tongue:
1995And stain is icky.
1996
1997Yukiko Kami [9:35 AM]
1998no, inertia will drag us down
1999just some colony won't cut it
2000
2001Darkworlds Shaishi [9:35 AM]
2002Ok
2003
2004Sir Trekkypj [9:35 AM]
2005lol
2006
2007Darkworlds Shaishi [9:35 AM]
2008Issues/Solutions (Some of these may already be in place)
2009•    SRP does not cover the cost of the ships/lack of funds for SRP
2010o    Increase taxation – Implement a fair tax that covers all mining and ratting (possibly explo) that will increase income.
2011o    Request a portion of taxes from corps that are a part of Brave Collective
2012o    Introduce a Brave Buyback that directly profits the alliance.
2013
2014•    FC’s becoming burnt out due to lack of FC’s
2015o    Offer incentives for being an FC
2016o    Provide FC ships or full SRP for all FCs
2017o    Provide training for FCs
2018
2019•    Lack of content
2020o    Diplo’s push for unblueing current blues who are effective bluetrals – These entities can be re-blued for certain ops/fleets (Or a simple follow broadcasts etc from FCs)
2021o    In particular places like Tenerifis and Immensea which we border should be good areas for content.
2022o    Again incentives for FCs for roaming or even non-FCs taking out random roams.
2023
2024Bisness Pirates [9:36 AM]
2025>o    Provide FC ships or full SRP for all FCs
2026Did this change? Like legit curious. Because I used to welp DNIs from the FC hangar all the time
2027
2028Darkworlds Shaishi [9:36 AM]
2029See the bit in brackets
2030
2031Bisness Pirates [9:37 AM]
2032And when it was my own fill out the SRP form
2033Mostly just mentioning it because I thought it was well known.
2034And there _should_ be a lot of help once you're inside the FC team with getting better.
2035But I'm not sure how well the training FC program has been managed ever since I went AFK
2036
2037Darkworlds Shaishi [9:38 AM]
2038I was an FC
2039I had backseat help
2040
2041Bisness Pirates [9:38 AM]
2042I know, that's why I'm confused that you were mentioning things that _should_ already be in place :stuck_out_tongue:
2043
2044Darkworlds Shaishi [9:38 AM]
2045and knew the fundamentals
2046but for others I don;t know
2047
2048Berend Antollare [9:40 AM]
2049@Darkworlds Shaishi first point 100 % agreed on all solutions. Second, I feel we are already trying/doing that but response keeps being lackluster. Third, point 1 agreed. point 2 don't see that happening since they aren't really bluetrals but more blue. point 3 see my response to second issue
2050As Jinx/Jana/... already mentioned, we pay new FCs, we pay their backseat, we pay for member ships
2051We just setup a paid 'training FC' program for the Alpha Talwars
2052
2053Yukiko Kami [9:42 AM]
2054I still see FCs payed last from all volunteers. They actually get to play the game and command a horde of space nerds around, so that is kind of a perk, which most other space jobs don't have. So when all the other hidden heros are payed, then I am happy to have FCs payed as well
2055
2056Darkworlds Shaishi [9:42 AM]
2057@yukiko_kami Definately
2058
2059Bisness Pirates [9:42 AM]
2060Yeah, with how niche FCing is it's still something a decent amount of people can find fun
2061Unlike let's say installing this iHub in this system
2062(or well, more iHub upgrade)
2063
2064Sir Trekkypj [9:44 AM]
2065i wish we used the forums more for this sort of discussion. Some really good ideas floating round
2066
2067Yukiko Kami [9:44 AM]
2068ACK
2069
2070Meha Taredi [9:44 AM]
2071<triggered
2072
2073Yukiko Kami [9:44 AM]
2074F O R U M S
2075
2076Sir Trekkypj [9:44 AM]
2077:reeeintensifies:
2078lol
2079
2080Bisness Pirates [9:45 AM]
2081R E D D I T
2082
2083Meha Taredi [9:45 AM]
2084we had a period at work where people would reply ack to emails like absolute robots
2085
2086Sir Trekkypj [9:45 AM]
2087O H  G O D   W H A T   H A V E  I  D O N E ?
2088It's a shame slack eats our message history tho :disappointed:
2089
2090Ignacius Kh'orlan [9:47 AM]
2091Forums are cool
2092
2093Bisness Pirates [9:47 AM]
2094Just gotta remember everything everyone ever says in here
2095
2096Ignacius Kh'orlan [9:47 AM]
2097I they are used by a lot of people
2098
2099Bisness Pirates [9:47 AM]
2100:kappa:
2101
2102Sir Trekkypj [9:47 AM]
2103By the way I blame Cagali for not having bread when he made his SOTA
2104his timing meant no TOAST for me
2105it's his fault for springing it on me without warning
2106:stuck_out_tongue:
2107A SOTA without toast is a very poor experience :sun:
2108
2109Ignacius Kh'orlan [9:49 AM]
2110at least he had a sandwich
2111
2112Sir Trekkypj [9:50 AM]
2113:drooling_face: a breakfast roll, looked like
2114god I miss those
2115
2116
2117Darkworlds Shaishi [9:55 AM]
2118Also: Brave would really benefit from having pre staged doctrine ships fit up on contract for a reasonable price
2119both in stagings and in GE
2120None of this fit it up from Market
2121
2122Stars Storm [9:55 AM]
2123He had a freaking bacon and egg brekky roll WITH TOMATO SAUCE INSTEAD OF BARBECUE. it was absolute heresy of the highest order
2124
2125Sir Trekkypj [9:56 AM]
2126wat!
2127though Chef brown sauce is also acceptable
2128http://www.foodireland.com/mm5/Products/581302_149x311.jpg
2129http://www.foodireland.com/mm5/Products/581302_149x311.jpg
2130tomato sauce however is completely heretical
2131
2132Bisness Pirates [9:59 AM]
2133Tomato sauce has its uses
2134
2135Stars Storm [9:59 AM]
2136For sure. Tomato sauce is for peasants and people without tastebuds
2137
2138Jellel Hakkim [9:59 AM]
2139I fit up doctrine ships on the regular for L-5, they move faster than one importer can keep up with.
2140
2141Bisness Pirates [9:59 AM]
2142Though not on something like bacon
2143
2144Darkworlds Shaishi [9:59 AM]
2145@Jellel Hakkim Thats awesome
2146
2147Bisness Pirates [10:00 AM]
2148L-5 is the only place I haven't been yet today. Need to check out that market and see how easy it is to stock :stuck_out_tongue:
2149
2150Jellel Hakkim [10:00 AM]
2151TL;DR - margins are great, but movement is slllloooowwwww
2152Slow since Frat war died
2153when the war jumped off it was raining isk
2154
2155Bisness Pirates [10:01 AM]
2156To be expected tbqh
2157
2158Jellel Hakkim [10:01 AM]
2159yep
2160
2161Bisness Pirates [10:01 AM]
2162Yeah, that's most of the time the case.
2163Just a tip, the moment you feel the deployment is coming up start freeing up some ISK.
2164
2165Jellel Hakkim [10:01 AM]
2166I’ve had more success fitting up test doctrines and putting them up in 08-
2167Nightmares :cash:
2168Ishtars
2169Lotta bombers
2170
2171Darkworlds Shaishi [10:02 AM]
2172@Jellel Hakkim you stock GE contracts as well?
2173Or do they not move enough?
2174
2175Stars Storm [10:03 AM]
2176I can pump out 80000 of our t1 doctrine hulls and nagalfar hulls every day in GE but I can't do the fittings. :rip: so I leave them on market.
2177
2178Jellel Hakkim [10:03 AM]
2179Last time was several months ago, I put up 10 doctrine shield fit Sabres, only 7 sold in 90 days, and I was like, meh
2180Priced to move, cost + 20%
2181max probes included etc (edited) 
2182
2183Darkworlds Shaishi [10:04 AM]
2184yeah sabres are a niche product in GE
2185caracals/ferox/bombers i would imagine would move quicker
2186but less isk
2187maybe less ferox
2188
2189Bisness Pirates [10:04 AM]
2190Note that the market also generally sells better. We haven't really had the doctrines up for contract enough to stock fleets like we used to back in the day.
2191
2192Jellel Hakkim [10:04 AM]
2193Until people scream that there aren’t any, so I wanted to make sure we didn’t failfleet cuz no sabres.
2194I moved them to L-5 and sold out in two days
2195
2196Bisness Pirates [10:05 AM]
2197Like on the market they sell a couple a day on average and some days 10+
2198
2199Jellel Hakkim [10:06 AM]
2200I think it was more like, man do I appreciate being able to just pull a fit shit off contract, I should fit up a bunch. But our members aren’t “trained” to look at contracts first.
2201
2202Bisness Pirates [10:06 AM]
2203Oh it's definitely nice
2204However the quick buy function on fittings killed a lot of that
2205and to me that is more convenient
2206just load up the exact fit you need and hit buy.
2207
2208Jellel Hakkim [10:07 AM]
2209Another Brave “tax” idea: Take corp dollars, fit up a ton of doc ships, put them up at a 30% markup, save everyone time, make isk, make more fun
2210Yes but doctrine ships still make sense for contract - flashform Harpies in PZMA for example. No time to fit a ship, no time to deal with Mod X being out of stock
2211Probably not enough volume to make a meaningful contribution to corp wealth but sign me up for keeping doctrine ships up on contract in GE and PZMA
2212
2213LSky NLX [10:13 AM]
2214All these messages...
2215Where's everyone with their feedback before a corp leaves?
2216
2217Koffee Break [10:13 AM]
2218brave's weird chaotic open market might be one of the only places in null other than PH staging and 1DQ that's actually capable of fitting all kinds of arbitrary stuff even w/o open contracts.  Circle of production dies out when we get oversupplied from producing and not enough fleets are rolling out, and i know I've paid super ratters' worth of taxes in the good days stocking stuff that moves when we're really active in Catch.  That's kind of why i'm bullish on paying FCs, i understand other spacework and how incredibly unrewarding most of it is, but FC-ing is this big wheel-greasing exercise that makes everything else come together.
2219lol this channel's been DEQC criticizing brave long before the move out was announced :smile:
2220
2221Bisness Pirates [10:14 AM]
2222super ratters worth of taxes? Fucking casual
2223
2224Koffee Break [10:14 AM]
2225possessive plural!  a lot of taxes! :smile:
2226
2227Bisness Pirates [10:15 AM]
2228I probably paid a super worth of taxes amassing and spending and amassing and spending my wealth
2229And I would probably be able to afford one if I now put all my money together to get one :stuck_out_tongue:
2230The market taxes are harsh :disappointed:
2231
2232Koffee Break [10:16 AM]
2233try moving to pure blind suddenly i'm rich idk what to do
2234
2235Indybro/Wang Cavin-Guang [10:16 AM]
2236i've paid 0.5b in market taxes to brave (3%) currently in May
2237
2238Koffee Break [10:17 AM]
2239but the taxes on the market are good, there's a ton of velocity in there.  TEST does the contracts/space communism thing, we got this anarchy here that is a non-trivial amount of money when it's clicking along, I don't think i'm wrong in that even not seeing the books.
2240
2241Jellel Hakkim [10:17 AM]
2242I agree though with Koffee in the FC grease comment. Bump up market tax .5% and start an FC fund
2243
2244Bisness Pirates [10:18 AM]
2245Or about 17b throughput
2246
2247Koffee Break [10:18 AM]
2248hell i'd do that in a heartbeat ^.  Take the extra velocity any day there's tons of money made in the GE market even with the high taxes.
2249
2250Jellel Hakkim [10:18 AM]
2251:thinking_face:run it up the chain
2252
2253Berend Antollare [10:19 AM]
2254@koffee_break criticism enough, action very little :wink:
2255
2256Berend Antollare [10:20 AM]
2257Increased market tax just leads to more expensive products
2258
2259Jellel Hakkim [10:20 AM]
2260I’ll FC my first alpha tal fleet next week and the 200M isn’t the whole reason but it was enough to say yeah this is worth not running my JF for a day and I might actually enjoy it
2261Yes but it could also lead to more velocity
2262
2263Berend Antollare [10:21 AM]
2264^ see incentive working
2265
2266Jellel Hakkim [10:21 AM]
2267Volume>Tax rate
2268
2269Berend Antollare [10:21 AM]
2270What velocity?
2271
2272Jellel Hakkim [10:21 AM]
2273Item turnover
2274Sell more make more
2275
2276Indybro/Wang Cavin-Guang [10:21 AM]
2277ISK VELOCITY ZOOOOOOM
2278
2279Jellel Hakkim [10:21 AM]
2280Demand comes from more fleets
2281
2282Koffee Break [10:21 AM]
2283it works for the picks&shovels small things in GE, like cruiser guns that are upmarked 30% anyway, the taxes is kinda immaterial and that's most of what keeps the ge market clicking.
2284
2285Jellel Hakkim [10:22 AM]
2286Supply side economics at its best
2287
2288Berend Antollare [10:22 AM]
2289Sell to who? If the stuff gets more expensive people run low on ISK faster and buy less
2290
2291Jellel Hakkim [10:22 AM]
2292SRP + engaged new FC blood = mor hulls sell
2293
2294Koffee Break [10:23 AM]
2295it's not really tangibly more expensive, the taxes we have for the high margin/high volume things doesn't really impact the price so much
2296
2297Berend Antollare [10:23 AM]
2298SRP needs to go up cause more expensive so more ISK needed and you've just spend your tax increase
2299
2300Koffee Break [10:24 AM]
2301eeeh, we're talking .5% on a market that's already too highly taxed to do reaaal efficient arbitrage and stuff on, I don't think any of the dudes who stock the market would argue that's reasonable considering what actually moves in ge
2302
2303Jellel Hakkim [10:24 AM]
2304I’m half inspired to build a business model
2305
2306Indybro/Wang Cavin-Guang [10:24 AM]
2307Market tax is fine how it is
2308
2309Berend Antollare [10:24 AM]
2310Just to mention, I'm not against increasing market tax. I'm just trying to figure out how you'd make this work without spending your winnings twice in costs
2311
2312Indybro/Wang Cavin-Guang [10:25 AM]
2313Increasing tax will get a backlash.
2314Dropping it won't increase sales.
2315
2316Berend Antollare [10:25 AM]
2317Should make my title 'Playing devils advocate'
2318
2319Koffee Break [10:25 AM]
2320lololol, fair
2321
2322Vyalia Eg'erre [10:25 AM]
2323Yes
2324
2325Indybro/Wang Cavin-Guang [10:25 AM]
2326purge berend
2327
2328Berend Antollare [10:26 AM]
2329@Vyalia Eg'erre :kissing_heart:
2330
2331Vyalia Eg'erre [10:26 AM]
2332:heart:
2333
2334Koffee Break [10:26 AM]
2335still.  fcs getting paid/more fleets/more market taxes/more alliance money is apparently the soapbox i've chosen to stand on today
2336
2337Vyalia Eg'erre [10:26 AM]
2338Love you rly bb
2339
2340Berend Antollare [10:27 AM]
2341@koffee_break more SRP needed to be paid out?
2342
2343Koffee Break [10:27 AM]
2344hell yeah!
2345
2346LSky NLX [10:27 AM]
2347tax slack messages
2348
2349Berend Antollare [10:27 AM]
2350So gaining money once (taxes), spending twice (FC payout, SRP)
2351
2352Jellel Hakkim [10:28 AM]
2353Ok now I’m definitely going to build a model.
2354
2355Koffee Break [10:28 AM]
2356just from having gone over the srp stuff before, 1 stratop welp is as expensive as like 5 fun fleets srp-wise.
2357
2358Berend Antollare [10:29 AM]
2359So you'd 'tax' the fleet member, gotcha
2360
2361Koffee Break [10:29 AM]
2362exactly.  who's happy he's not up in the middle of the night shooting a bridge or chinese input broadcasters :smile:
2363
2364Berend Antollare [10:29 AM]
2365@Jellel Hakkim if you need an investment, lemme know
2366
2367Jellel Hakkim [10:30 AM]
2368Fun has value. People are clamoring for more action. People will pay a little more for things if it means more stuff to do
2369
2370Darkworlds Shaishi [10:30 AM]
2371Unblue Test? More content? :stuck_out_tongue:
2372
2373Berend Antollare [10:30 AM]
2374Until they run out of cash
2375
2376LSky NLX [10:31 AM]
2377I ask this, who puts the most strain on fun? Tax them
2378Tax diplos
2379
2380Aernir Ridley [10:31 AM]
2381`+875 Unread Messages`
2382
2383What the ever living fuck people XD
2384
2385Berend Antollare [10:31 AM]
2386Tbh I'd unblue XiX and FI.RE before TEST
2387
2388Darkworlds Shaishi [10:31 AM]
2389I was joking @berendantollare
2390kinda
2391:stuck_out_tongue:
2392
2393Berend Antollare [10:31 AM]
2394:wink:
2395
2396Darkworlds Shaishi [10:31 AM]
2397Yeah XiX and FI.RE were temp blues
2398that turned into permenant blues
2399
2400Jellel Hakkim [10:31 AM]
2401well the SOTA produced more engagement. Mission accomplished?
2402
2403Catherine Andedare [10:32 AM]
2404@adog Leadership talking gets people talking. All channels have been super active the last few days.
2405
2406Berend Antollare [10:32 AM]
2407Well, permanent blues is relative, right?
2408
2409Darkworlds Shaishi [10:32 AM]
2410Everything is relative
2411
2412Aernir Ridley [10:32 AM]
2413Alright so where are we in the tax discussion atm?
2414
2415Darkworlds Shaishi [10:32 AM]
2416I vote (my non-exsitant vote) for 10% across mining/ratting
2417
2418Catherine Andedare [10:32 AM]
2419Most talk has been about spending money rather than earning it tbh
2420
2421Berend Antollare [10:32 AM]
2422@Catherine Andedare tbf the only extra leadership thing we've had over the last few days was the SOTA today
2423
2424Catherine Andedare [10:33 AM]
2425Berend, that'
2426
2427Koffee Break [10:33 AM]
2428uh, grr rorqs, and pay fcs
2429
2430Darkworlds Shaishi [10:33 AM]
2431^^^
2432
2433Berend Antollare [10:33 AM]
2434So that 'extra' engagement from the rest of leadership is always there
2435
2436Catherine Andedare [10:33 AM]
2437s true, the DEQC departure certainly added a ton as well
2438
2439Koffee Break [10:33 AM]
2440some of it well founded, some of it sperg, most of it's entertaining
2441
2442Berend Antollare [10:33 AM]
2443Lol
2444
2445Darkworlds Shaishi [10:33 AM]
2446image.png 
2447
2448
2449Jellel Hakkim [10:34 AM]
2450lol I was just screen shotting that
2451
2452AlmafuerteUK [10:34 AM]
2453@adog some people seem to have the opinion that "All taxation is theft"
2454
2455Catherine Andedare [10:35 AM]
2456Well, taxation is theft. Sometimes you just have to let it happen though.
2457
2458LSky NLX [10:35 AM]
2459That sentiment was also present when a tax on corporation ratting income was floated (edited) 
2460
2461Darkworlds Shaishi [10:35 AM]
2462What? Taxation isn;t theft
2463
2464Indybro/Wang Cavin-Guang [10:36 AM]
2465If you think taxation is theft, you're not offshoring hard enough
2466
2467Darkworlds Shaishi [10:36 AM]
2468^^^
2469
2470Aernir Ridley [10:38 AM]
2471So I'm pretty sure I've said my piece 10 times over about mining taxes, so here's an idea for an overarching system:
2472
2473Up corp level tax minimum to 12.5%
2474Set a corp tax to alliance of 2.5%
2475Up market tax to 5%
2476Up reprocessing tax to 3-5% (this will be a big one, it's currently at 1%)
2477
2478On mining tax, as I've said I've said my piece, I don't like it.
2479On industry taxes, not only are they not standard but in many places they're obscenely high (up to 50% of the cost index)
2480
2481LSky NLX [10:38 AM]
2482Whats high about the 50%?
2483Seriously
2484
2485AlmafuerteUK [10:38 AM]
2486you're against mining taxes?
2487
2488LSky NLX [10:38 AM]
2489And yes, mining taxes are bad
2490
2491Darkworlds Shaishi [10:38 AM]
2492Surely mining taxes are the fairest way
2493
2494LSky NLX [10:38 AM]
2495It doesnt work
2496
2497AlmafuerteUK [10:38 AM]
2498ok
2499
2500Aernir Ridley [10:38 AM]
2501Yes for reasons already discussed
2502
2503Darkworlds Shaishi [10:38 AM]
2504Why doesn;t it work?
2505
2506LSky NLX [10:38 AM]
2507Its not feasible
2508Technically
2509
2510AlmafuerteUK [10:39 AM]
2511no mining taxes, but in exchange no rorqual saves
2512
2513Darkworlds Shaishi [10:39 AM]
2514@lskynlx why not?
2515
2516AlmafuerteUK [10:39 AM]
2517or if there are the rorq that is being saved pays the SRP bill
2518
2519Meha Taredi [10:39 AM]
2520reee didn't we already agree on mining taxes
2521
2522LSky NLX [10:39 AM]
2523Because it requires everyone to give their full api access to the alliance
2524
2525Aernir Ridley [10:39 AM]
2526I had a very long conversation elsewhere and an essay posted to C 2 about it
2527
2528Indybro/Wang Cavin-Guang [10:39 AM]
2529Rorqs should already have their APIs in core. And if not then you make them
2530
2531DefaultGuy Redshirt [10:39 AM]
2532Market tax to 0%, Corp level ratting to 5%, reprocessing tax to 1%, athanor rental tax to 0%, moon mining tax to 50%
2533
2534AlmafuerteUK [10:39 AM]
2535if you don't trust the alliance, leave
2536simple
2537
2538Darkworlds Shaishi [10:39 AM]
2539@lskynlx why not use the mining ledger that is used for moon mining at the moment?
2540
2541DefaultGuy Redshirt [10:39 AM]
2542$$$ forever
2543
2544LSky NLX [10:39 AM]
2545we investigated this when we introduced moon taxes
2546
2547Aernir Ridley [10:40 AM]
2548Mining ledger only works on moons
2549
2550LSky NLX [10:40 AM]
2551@Darkworlds Shaishi because that doesnt cover normal mining
2552
2553Darkworlds Shaishi [10:40 AM]
2554ahhhh
2555
2556DefaultGuy Redshirt [10:40 AM]
2557yep, and only moons are isk/hr
2558
2559Darkworlds Shaishi [10:40 AM]
2560So why not full api then?
2561
2562AlmafuerteUK [10:40 AM]
2563well if it's the case people want to hide their ill-gotten gains
2564no more rorq saves
2565
2566Meha Taredi [10:40 AM]
2567reeeeeeee
2568
2569AlmafuerteUK [10:40 AM]
2570natural selection will resolve the problem for you
2571
2572LSky NLX [10:40 AM]
2573It basically because too much administrative work
2574
2575Meha Taredi [10:40 AM]
2576this convo sounds completely derailed
2577
2578Aernir Ridley [10:40 AM]
2579Alma it's not about the rorqs, it's about the PR nightmare
2580
2581Darkworlds Shaishi [10:41 AM]
2582PR?
2583
2584LSky NLX [10:41 AM]
2585You need people to enforce mining taxes, thats not fun
2586
2587Meha Taredi [10:41 AM]
2588also lol at ill-gotten 100mil/h
2589
2590AlmafuerteUK [10:41 AM]
2591how is it a PR nightmare?
2592
2593
2594Aernir Ridley [10:41 AM]
2595Sigh, guess we're getting back into this, let me repost my essay, just a sec
2596
2597Darkworlds Shaishi [10:41 AM]
2598Meha when your multiboxing rorqs thats up to 600-1.2 per hour
2599if you have 6-12 rorqs that is
2600
2601Aernir Ridley [10:42 AM]
2602I've a few concerns with taxing anoms. The main one is the PR issue; ignoring the fact that Reddit will probably have a field day over it, mining tax outside of moons is not something that's standard in this game. People coming from highsec have never experienced it, and maybe even more importantly people coming from other alliances have never experienced it. It's a check against us on the comparison table with other alliances, especially newbro focused ones.
2603
2604Moon taxes were entirely justified and made a lot of sense, they used to be a significant source of revenue for the alliance, and they're something that normal players didn't have access to previously. A renting model with tax was perfect to fill both those voids. Here though, we're taking something which people could historically do for free, and adding not just a price tag, but effectively a bill that people have to manually pay at the end of the week.
2605
2606My other big problem is the effect it could have on industrialists. Ratting, contract, and market taxes are taken automatically and directly out of profits, and moon ore can be reasonably expected to be sold. With Anom Ore on the other hand, there's no reasonable guarantee that it's being sold even once it's been reprocessed and built into something. This especially hits people who want to build capitals or supers from scratch, as there's a good chance they're not making liquid isk while they're trying to scrounge together the materials needed to build these ships. On this front, the combination of Reprocessing, Industry, and Market/Contract taxes are already more than enough to bring them in line with other forms of taxation, and those should be looked at before something like this is even considered.
2607
2608LSky NLX [10:42 AM]
2609Normal mining taxes are desired, yes, but currently not feasible relatively easily with the tools CCP has given us
2610
2611LSky NLX [10:42 AM]
2612Otherwise, we would have them already
2613Its not as simple as, get everyone's API
2614it goes further, because you need to formally establish whose account/character belongs to who
2615its a lot of work
2616
2617Darkworlds Shaishi [10:43 AM]
2618I understand, I thought the mining ledger covered all mining
2619
2620LSky NLX [10:43 AM]
2621We dont have enough volunteer IT people to make that happen
2622It does, but only personal mining ledgers
2623Ledgers from athanors work, because they cover everyone
2624If there would have been a system-wide ihub ledger
2625then it would work
2626
2627Davidkaa Smith [10:44 AM]
2628wait, you can volunteer to be an IT people?
2629
2630Indybro/Wang Cavin-Guang [10:44 AM]
2631Yes
2632
2633LSky NLX [10:44 AM]
2634#coders-corner
2635
2636Indybro/Wang Cavin-Guang [10:44 AM]
2637#code-core
2638
2639LSky NLX [10:44 AM]
2640that too
2641
2642Davidkaa Smith [10:45 AM]
2643I assumed IT systems are where only the Chones Ones are allowed due to trust things
2644
2645LSky NLX [10:45 AM]
2646If anything, IT people should be paid before FCs
2647IT people make annoying work easy
2648
2649Indybro/Wang Cavin-Guang [10:45 AM]
2650There's a difference between helping develop it stuff and being the person to deploy them.
2651So anyone can help code
2652
2653Berend Antollare [10:46 AM]
2654^ and then have Yuki or Rang deploy
2655
2656Davidkaa Smith [10:46 AM]
2657man, I wanted to help in coding, but I always assumed I wouldn't be trusted
2658well, anyway, that ship has sailed :smile:
2659
2660LSky NLX [10:46 AM]
2661Also, Im not a fan of messing with market taxes
2662theyre already high
2663
2664Bisness Pirates [10:46 AM]
2665That's only the corp ledgers. The personal ledger is everywhere.
2666Aernir Ridley
2667Mining ledger only works on moons
2668Posted in #criticise-cagaliToday at 10:40 AMView message
2669
2670LSky NLX [10:47 AM]
2671perhaps some people are overlooking the fact that 3% isnt a 3% tax on profit, its a 3% tax on the total value
2672the margin for an item can be 15-20%
2673but 3% suddenly matters a lot
2674
2675Bisness Pirates [10:47 AM]
2676I mean, it should be as simple as getting all the APIs right? Since we already go through the moonledger for moon taxes right?
2677
2678Aernir Ridley [10:47 AM]
2679Alright, what about reprocessing tax?
2680
2681LSky NLX [10:47 AM]
268212% or 15% margin is a sizeable difference
2683
2684Rangvaldr [10:48 AM]
2685^ and then have Yuki ~or Rang~ deploy
2686
2687FTFY
2688Berend Antollare
2689^ and then have Yuki or Rang deploy
2690Posted in #criticise-cagaliToday at 10:46 AMView message
2691
2692Indybro/Wang Cavin-Guang [10:48 AM]
2693Once again, science tax. That could be 50% and no one would bat an eye.
2694
2695LSky NLX [10:48 AM]
2696@bisnesspirate thats not simple
2697Yes, but science tax makes no impact
2698
2699Bisness Pirates [10:48 AM]
2700Why not? Just because of the amount of ledgers?
2701
2702LSky NLX [10:48 AM]
2703if youre trying to generate alliance isk, then this wont help
2704
2705Bisness Pirates [10:49 AM]
2706Because I would assume you would just have to replace all the moon ledgers with all the personal ledgers.
2707
2708Aernir Ridley [10:49 AM]
2709And by the way if you want to get taxes on people who just mine and sell to a buyback, the simple option would be to tax buybacks (yes I know they'll lower their rates), or setup an alliance buyback with the tax built in.
2710
2711Indybro/Wang Cavin-Guang [10:49 AM]
2712Only problem is finding people to run the alliance buyback, with or without incentive
2713
2714Aernir Ridley [10:49 AM]
2715The lower rate people get is the 'tax' in the first option.
2716
2717LSky NLX [10:50 AM]
2718the problem with these ideas is that there are no ready-made mechanisms to levy these taxes in game
2719the moment thats not there, it becomes very hard to make this work
2720this is why all the taxes in place are based on in game systems
2721
2722Berend Antollare [10:50 AM]
2723Why would I sell for a lower rate? That means you'd have to kick buybacks (edited) 
2724
2725Aernir Ridley [10:50 AM]
2726What do you mean?
2727(Berend)
2728
2729LSky NLX [10:51 AM]
2730a buyback tax is also easily avoided
2731
2732Berend Antollare [10:51 AM]
2733As you said, buybacks will lower their rates if they get taxed. So the alliance rates would be lower than the other buybacks
2734
2735LSky NLX [10:51 AM]
2736unless youre going to monitor everyone's outgoing contracts, which wont happen, and even then you can duck it
2737
2738Aernir Ridley [10:51 AM]
2739No I was suggesting one or the other, not both.
2740
2741Meha Taredi [10:52 AM]
2742vote for Dunk so he can push CCP to make APIs for the mining ledger
2743
2744Berend Antollare [10:52 AM]
2745Already there
2746
2747LSky NLX [10:52 AM]
2748a system mining ledger would be helpful
2749
2750Aernir Ridley [10:52 AM]
2751We have mining ledger APIs already
2752
2753LSky NLX [10:52 AM]
2754this solves a lot of issues
2755
2756Berend Antollare [10:52 AM]
2757You can already pull someone's personal mining ledger, we just don't have that endpoint in our APIs
2758
2759LSky NLX [10:53 AM]
2760say with level 4 mining upgrade, you get a system ledger, then itd be great
2761
2762Aernir Ridley [10:54 AM]
2763Adding it to core wouldn't be difficult, but with the way ESI functions you'd have to be on the ball with people re-authing all the time.
2764
2765Vyalia Eg'erre [10:54 AM]
2766Proposal for mining taxes. Convert rorq group to mandatory for all rorq pilots in alliance. Tax all rorq pilots whi now have their ESI and mains logged
2767
2768Berend Antollare [10:54 AM]
2769Plus everyone needs to re-auth :wink:
2770
2771Vyalia Eg'erre [10:54 AM]
2772No newbro is harmed
2773
2774Berend Antollare [10:54 AM]
2775^ I'm with Vyalia on that one
2776
2777Vyalia Eg'erre [10:54 AM]
2778Not many people need to re auth
2779Promotes smart rorqual flying and intel
2780
2781Berend Antollare [10:55 AM]
2782How would we enforce though?
2783
2784Bisness Pirates [10:55 AM]
2785I rather have everyone taxed personally.
2786Enforce is easy
2787pay up or kick
2788how well that would go over
2789\o/
2790
2791Berend Antollare [10:55 AM]
2792I'd hate to turn into REQ with their kicking/AWOXing
2793
2794Nistam Kanjus [10:55 AM]
2795idk. I've heard that people in brave are supposed to be free to do on what they do with their toys.
2796
2797Forcing people to have their toys docked doesn't seem brave (edited) 
2798
2799Vyalia Eg'erre [10:55 AM]
2800I would really hope we get a compliance titan but tbh the best option would be what we do with moon tax
2801
2802Fomol Grosstraktor [10:56 AM]
2803the best way to increase alliance income is to bash the deqc poco on planet 3 in 4-mpsj and replace it with a regular 4% bpos poco (edited) 
2804
2805Aernir Ridley [10:56 AM]
2806A compliance titan will never happen
2807It goes against our most core beliefs
2808
2809LSky NLX [10:56 AM]
2810the easiest is just to force a specific tax rate on ratting taxes per corp, and making corps pay a small percentage of that
2811fewest parties
2812
2813Swakhammer [10:56 AM]
2814Anytime you make something manatory a little piece of Brave dies
2815
2816LSky NLX [10:56 AM]
2817easiest to control
2818
2819Bisness Pirates [10:56 AM]
2820I would rather tax everyone than to force everyone to join a group(even if you should be in it anyway)
2821
2822Berend Antollare [10:56 AM]
2823Yeah, taxing corps seems like too much of a no-brainer
2824
2825Aernir Ridley [10:56 AM]
2826^^^^
2827
2828Meha Taredi [10:57 AM]
2829yup
2830
2831Vyalia Eg'erre [10:57 AM]
2832+1
2833
2834Aernir Ridley [10:57 AM]
2835Corp taxes I'm honestly amazed aren't already a thing
2836
2837Bisness Pirates [10:57 AM]
2838Yeah, I still find it weird that we just haven't been taxing corps.
2839
2840Vyalia Eg'erre [10:57 AM]
2841Likewise
2842
2843LSky NLX [10:57 AM]
2844its been raised before
2845
2846Berend Antollare [10:57 AM]
2847@bisnesspirate Yup but as discussed you'd need to re-auth everyone on every character which will lead to issues and again, how would you enforce?
2848
2849Vyalia Eg'erre [10:57 AM]
2850But @adog thoughts on rorq idea
2851
2852LSky NLX [10:57 AM]
2853convincing people who want taxes to be raised is far easier than convincing CEOs
2854
2855Bisness Pirates [10:57 AM]
2856:boot:
2857
2858Meha Taredi [10:58 AM]
2859whats the problem with auth
2860
2861Bisness Pirates [10:58 AM]
2862But it's less than ideal yeah
2863
2864Meha Taredi [10:58 AM]
2865i thought the api problem is that the personal mining ledger is not accessible via API
2866
2867LSky NLX [10:58 AM]
2868its a lot of work
2869
2870Aernir Ridley [10:58 AM]
2871I could support a _small_ rorq tax in that method, but it doesn't eliminate the PR concern
2872
2873LSky NLX [10:58 AM]
2874thats the problem
2875
2876Sir Trekkypj [10:58 AM]
2877tbh enforcing auth for anyone who is in cap or rorq groups should be standard at this stage
2878
2879Aernir Ridley [10:58 AM]
2880Like 1-2%
2881
2882Meha Taredi [10:58 AM]
2883it is
2884
2885Vyalia Eg'erre [10:58 AM]
2886Its not
2887
2888Meha Taredi [10:59 AM]
2889it isn't?
2890
2891LSky NLX [10:59 AM]
2892if you can find the same amount of to work on getting this stuff implemented as people who are currently talking about it here, then we can reconsider it
2893
2894Vyalia Eg'erre [10:59 AM]
2895Theres a few pilots (i wont name them) who brag about not being in cap group all the time
2896
2897Darkworlds Shaishi [10:59 AM]
2898From an ideal point of view. Mining should be taxed
2899
2900Aernir Ridley [10:59 AM]
2901When you go higher than that you run into the third problem from the essay, people not being able to pay them in certain situations.
2902
2903Darkworlds Shaishi [10:59 AM]
2904Its common sense
2905
2906Yukiko Kami [10:59 AM]
2907I don't need to tax rorqs
2908I just want them to organise their defenses
2909
2910Vyalia Eg'erre [10:59 AM]
2911‘Oh im smart enough to not need help’ yadayada’
2912
2913Berend Antollare [10:59 AM]
2914Hang on, yes the endpoint exists to see someones personal mining ledger. No, it's currently not in the scopes we've asked for to enter Brave
2915
2916Meha Taredi [10:59 AM]
2917what do you mean by organize their own defenses
2918
2919Yukiko Kami [10:59 AM]
2920tl;dr; if you are a rorq and want to be saved you need to prepare for that and get people to help you and pay for it
2921
2922Darkworlds Shaishi [11:00 AM]
2923However if this is going to take months of work to fix then it may not be practicable
2924
2925Yukiko Kami [11:00 AM]
2926rorq group can setup an insurance pot or whatnot if they feel like it
2927
2928Meha Taredi [11:00 AM]
2929well yeah that gets repeated daily on comms
2930
2931Darkworlds Shaishi [11:00 AM]
2932but if its a week or so of work
2933
2934Sir Trekkypj [11:00 AM]
2935just had a random idea. Charge a fee for saves.
2936
2937LSky NLX [11:00 AM]
2938I do like the idea of enforcing it on rorq pilots though, even if only as a starting point
2939
2940Darkworlds Shaishi [11:00 AM]
2941then I see that benifiting the alliance financially
2942
2943Yukiko Kami [11:00 AM]
2944no fee
2945
2946Sir Trekkypj [11:00 AM]
2947i'm brainstorming lol
2948
2949Yukiko Kami [11:00 AM]
2950the alliance will not SRP rorq saves is what I am saying
2951
2952Berend Antollare [11:01 AM]
2953@Darkworlds Shaishi the coding might take a bit but isn't that hard. The implementation would be the issue
2954
2955Bisness Pirates [11:01 AM]
2956:cry:
2957
2958Sir Trekkypj [11:01 AM]
2959fire brigade does a call out fee in most places
2960
2961Yukiko Kami [11:01 AM]
2962will not -> should not
2963
2964Bisness Pirates [11:01 AM]
2965phew
2966Crisis adverted. Yukiko has still not managed to coup Cagali and force us to move back to cloud ring.
2967
2968Sir Trekkypj [11:01 AM]
2969(at this stage I am just flinging ideas out - not necessaily an endorsement)
2970
2971Yukiko Kami [11:01 AM]
2972soon (tm)
2973
2974Berend Antollare [11:01 AM]
2975@yukiko_kami Ok, go build your own cap fleet
2976
2977Yukiko Kami [11:02 AM]
2978your rorq is not building a cap fleet, the ores it mines are, but for those the rorq pilot is payed
2979
2980Aernir Ridley [11:02 AM]
2981Like it or not, rorqs are an incredibly important part of the alliance.
2982
2983Sir Trekkypj [11:02 AM]
2984they are
2985
2986Yukiko Kami [11:02 AM]
2987they also make the pilot a lot of isk
2988
2989Darkworlds Shaishi [11:02 AM]
2990^^^
2991
2992Sir Trekkypj [11:02 AM]
2993also true
2994
2995Berend Antollare [11:02 AM]
2996So tax them
2997
2998Darkworlds Shaishi [11:02 AM]
2999That should be taxed like ratting
3000
3001Yukiko Kami [11:03 AM]
3002as said, I think rorq pilots can unite and build an insurance fund or whatnot (edited) 
3003
3004Darkworlds Shaishi [11:03 AM]
3005in my opinionâ„¢
3006
3007Yukiko Kami [11:03 AM]
3008but keep the alliance out of it
3009organise your SRP on your own
3010
3011Jinx De'Caire [11:03 AM]
3012+1 for mining tax or reprocessing tax for ease of implementation
3013
3014Sir Trekkypj [11:03 AM]
3015it's a question of how to capture the taxes without double dipping or being unfair
3016
3017Yukiko Kami [11:03 AM]
3018isntead of taxing it wihch creates extra work on top
3019
3020Aernir Ridley [11:03 AM]
3021We cannot tax mining like ratting, I do need to make that distinction, it's 100% impossible.
3022
3023Sir Trekkypj [11:03 AM]
3024it also has to be easy to collect
3025
3026Meha Taredi [11:03 AM]
3027so then they can unionise cap building and charge the alliance back through that
3028
3029Berend Antollare [11:04 AM]
3030@adog It isn't
3031
3032Yukiko Kami [11:04 AM]
3033well not the alliance
3034
3035Jinx De'Caire [11:04 AM]
3036Impossible and difficult are different
3037
3038Yukiko Kami [11:04 AM]
3039their corp mates
3040
3041Aernir Ridley [11:04 AM]
3042We can do mail-in taxes, but those create the PR nightmare I talked about
3043
3044Sir Trekkypj [11:04 AM]
3045CCP could save us all a lot of aggro if they would make it easier to tax the different activities
3046
3047Darkworlds Shaishi [11:04 AM]
3048If you have the endpoint @adog why not?
3049
3050Bisness Pirates [11:04 AM]
3051You can with the APIs, however it's something no other alliance has tried yet.
3052Aernir Ridley
3053We cannot tax mining like ratting, I do need to make that distinction, it's 100% impossible.
3054Posted in #criticise-cagaliToday at 11:03 AMView message
3055And might create a PR nightmare yeah
3056Because people love to hate taxes
3057
3058Aernir Ridley [11:05 AM]
3059You guys misunderstand, I'm not saying we can't tax mining, I'm saying we can't create a tax in such a way that it's quiet and automated.
3060
3061Berend Antollare [11:05 AM]
3062@yukiko_kami so we'd be putting the cost of the saves on Brave members, cool
3063
3064Darkworlds Shaishi [11:05 AM]
3065Isn;t one of Braves mottos "Be the Change you want"?
3066
3067Yukiko Kami [11:05 AM]
3068on those who profit from the saves yes
3069
3070Sir Trekkypj [11:05 AM]
3071CCPls make taxation automated and quiet
3072
3073Yukiko Kami [11:05 AM]
3074sounds sensible to me
3075
3076Jinx De'Caire [11:05 AM]
3077Reprocessing tax is easy.
3078
3079Berend Antollare [11:05 AM]
3080No, you're just making caps more expensive
3081
3082Bisness Pirates [11:05 AM]
3083Yeah, I would say that increasing the reprocessing tax might be a good idea
3084
3085Darkworlds Shaishi [11:05 AM]
3086Reprocessing doesn;t hit the miners who sell to the buyback
3087
3088Jinx De'Caire [11:05 AM]
3089Buybacks reprocess
3090
3091Darkworlds Shaishi [11:05 AM]
3092It hits people who buy compressed ore to build
3093
3094Jinx De'Caire [11:05 AM]
3095It gets captured
3096
3097Bisness Pirates [11:05 AM]
3098Though you can't crank it up too much otherwise people start importing all the ore.
3099
3100Berend Antollare [11:05 AM]
3101As with the buyback idea, you're just relocation costs
3102
3103Aernir Ridley [11:06 AM]
3104The increased cost of reprocessing results in reduced buyback rates again
3105
3106Darkworlds Shaishi [11:06 AM]
3107Tax the miners is my suggestion
3108
3109Yukiko Kami [11:06 AM]
3110as said, more work
3111
3112Darkworlds Shaishi [11:06 AM]
3113and if thats too hard then...maybe we should try that hard
3114
3115Yukiko Kami [11:06 AM]
3116just let them do their stuff and don't pay for saving
3117
3118Aernir Ridley [11:06 AM]
3119And Dark as I've said it's impossible without doing mail-in taxes which come with a host of issues
3120
3121Bisness Pirates [11:06 AM]
3122@Darkworlds Shaishi Only if you import the ore from elsewhere
3123
3124Meha Taredi [11:06 AM]
3125damn and only a couple months ago we used to look forward to rorq saves :smile:
3126
3127Bisness Pirates [11:07 AM]
3128Otherwise the miners also get taxed  because they can ask less for the ore.
3129
3130LSky NLX [11:07 AM]
3131Id estimate most of the buyback costs are market fees, anyway
3132local or empire space
3133
3134Meha Taredi [11:07 AM]
3135now there's a few bad ones and suddenly everyone's salty about it
3136
3137Berend Antollare [11:07 AM]
3138@yukiko_kami again, you're relocating the costs to the members buying what the rorqs mine/build
3139
3140Aernir Ridley [11:07 AM]
3141I highly doubt buybacks are selling ore in highsec
3142
3143LSky NLX [11:07 AM]
3144Yeah no that doesnt happen
3145
3146Yukiko Kami [11:08 AM]
3147@berendantollare fine, that might be the case, but it saves the alliance work and isk it can invest otherwise
3148eg in higher cap SRP could be an option
3149
3150Berend Antollare [11:08 AM]
3151And it will cost the alliance more SRP?
3152
3153Yukiko Kami [11:08 AM]
3154how so?
3155it's a fixed price
3156
3157Berend Antollare [11:08 AM]
3158Caps more expensive, caps die for alliance, alliance pays more SRP?
3159
3160Bisness Pirates [11:09 AM]
3161caps are a flat 1b SRP
3162
3163Berend Antollare [11:09 AM]
3164You just mentioned higher cap SRP as something you'd do with the ISK
3165
3166Yukiko Kami [11:10 AM]
3167as said, at the moment it's a fixed rate
3168
3169Berend Antollare [11:10 AM]
3170Hell, it's not even just caps. Normal stuff will get more expensive too
3171
3172Yukiko Kami [11:10 AM]
3173and before I have seen it I doubt it will hyper increase prices
3174
3175Berend Antollare [11:10 AM]
3176That's a cop out argument
3177
3178Yukiko Kami [11:10 AM]
3179there is just no rational argument for alliance SRP on rorq saves IMHO
3180
3181Bisness Pirates [11:10 AM]
3182Don't forget that there is a cap that is the import cost
3183
3184Aernir Ridley [11:10 AM]
3185Besides the fact that rorquals are literally the thing that drives our industry?
3186
3187Koffee Break [11:10 AM]
3188it doesn't though.  it drives private wallets up.
3189
3190Bisness Pirates [11:11 AM]
3191It drives the wallets of a lot of people up though
3192
3193Koffee Break [11:11 AM]
3194in the contemporary iteration
3195
3196Aernir Ridley [11:11 AM]
3197What? Where do you think the ore comes from to produce our ships?
3198
3199Darkworlds Shaishi [11:11 AM]
3200Unless rorq pilots offer ore at less than Jita Buy then it doesn;t technically help
3201
3202Koffee Break [11:11 AM]
3203literally hisec sometimes in m8tron.
3204
3205Bisness Pirates [11:11 AM]
3206Like all of those people who do manufacturing
3207@Darkworlds Shaishi You're forgetting import costs which matter quite a bit
3208
3209Yukiko Kami [11:11 AM]
3210yours is a cop out argument
3211exactly
3212
3213Darkworlds Shaishi [11:12 AM]
3214I wasn't forgetting, if you set up careful buy orders in high sec
3215
3216Berend Antollare [11:12 AM]
3217Why is my argument a cop out?
3218
3219Darkworlds Shaishi [11:12 AM]
3220and then import
3221
3222Yukiko Kami [11:12 AM]
3223LOL my connection isn't great \o/
3224
3225Darkworlds Shaishi [11:12 AM]
3226you can save an awful lot of money
3227even with import costs
3228
3229Berend Antollare [11:12 AM]
3230Sure, let's import all our ore from HS. See what that does to the price
3231
3232Bisness Pirates [11:12 AM]
3233What price do the buybacks actually buy ore for currently?
3234
3235Yukiko Kami [11:12 AM]
3236because you say "prices will rise, we cannot do it" without any proof
3237
3238Darkworlds Shaishi [11:13 AM]
3239At the moment Rorq pilots are selling for Jita Split
3240That does not benefit the alliance
3241
3242Berend Antollare [11:13 AM]
3243I'm sorry I must have missed your proof,. Yuki
3244
3245Yukiko Kami [11:13 AM]
3246I have none
3247I say do an experiment for something that seems very sensible to do
3248we know the situation as it is
3249
3250Berend Antollare [11:13 AM]
3251Sensible to you
3252
3253Yukiko Kami [11:13 AM]
3254lets see what happens if we change it
3255
3256Berend Antollare [11:13 AM]
3257That is a very dangerous expriment imo
3258
3259Yukiko Kami [11:13 AM]
3260sensible to anyone not invested or able to ignore that part
3261nothing is dangerous in a game
3262
3263Berend Antollare [11:14 AM]
3264People who leave due to this won't come back when we revert
3265
3266AlmafuerteUK [11:14 AM]
3267do you want them to come back?
3268
3269Berend Antollare [11:14 AM]
3270I'm fully willing to ignore my investment in industry
3271
3272Yukiko Kami [11:14 AM]
3273people come and go
3274if you can't live wit hthe fact that you are responsible for your stuff then :shrug:
3275
3276AlmafuerteUK [11:15 AM]
3277Quality > Quantity
3278
3279Berend Antollare [11:15 AM]
3280I'm not ok with an idea that might kill a significant part of Brave's industry
3281
3282Yukiko Kami [11:15 AM]
3283I am not saying rorqs can't be saved
3284I am just saying the people with the asset sohuld be responsible
3285if I don't insure my house, well though luck
3286
3287Berend Antollare [11:15 AM]
3288So then also no SRP for ratting carriers/supers?
3289
3290AlmafuerteUK [11:15 AM]
3291also if you burn down someone elses house
3292
3293Koffee Break [11:15 AM]
3294wait is that a thing right now?
3295
3296Yukiko Kami [11:15 AM]
3297IMHO same thing
3298
3299AlmafuerteUK [11:15 AM]
3300that you happen to be in at the time
3301
3302Yukiko Kami [11:15 AM]
3303no I gues saves
3304not the actual ship
3305but if you think the line further
3306why don't eve actually have SRP for lost ratting and mining ships?
3307I mean that's the other direction
3308
3309Berend Antollare [11:16 AM]
3310??
3311
3312Koffee Break [11:16 AM]
3313yeah i follow you
3314
3315Yukiko Kami [11:17 AM]
3316if you pay the saves why not pay the loss as well? seems to me like following the line of thought?
3317
3318Aernir Ridley [11:17 AM]
3319The point of rorq save SRP is to safeguard our industry and keep Impass secure. The only way you keep Impass secure is by encouraging the use of overwhelming force to stop people from coming to that region. We can't do that if we don't SRP the people doing that. (edited) 
3320
3321Berend Antollare [11:17 AM]
3322Join Goons, they do, meant for Yuki (edited) 
3323
3324Yukiko Kami [11:18 AM]
3325aha
3326
3327Berend Antollare [11:18 AM]
3328@yukiko_kami should we then also start taxing loot? (edited) 
3329
3330Yukiko Kami [11:18 AM]
3331axing loot?
3332
3333LSky NLX [11:18 AM]
3334axe everything!
3335
3336AlmafuerteUK [11:18 AM]
3337contribute loot to dojo or the srp fund
3338
3339Yukiko Kami [11:18 AM]
3340I would love that
3341
3342Bisness Pirates [11:18 AM]
3343From what I can remember that's depends on the corp and for like Karmafleet that was only if you were so bad you died to rats
3344(aka, basically a newbro who fucked up)
3345
3346Yukiko Kami [11:19 AM]
3347again, I can totally see a community build SRP slush fund
3348shouldn't be too hard
3349
3350Berend Antollare [11:19 AM]
3351@bisnesspirate not true, from several sources I've understood you could actually make ISK getting blown up
3352
3353Aernir Ridley [11:19 AM]
3354Oh helllll no, taxing loot hits one group far more than anything else, the Newbros that we encourage to loot and salvage. Also impossible through ESI so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ (edited) 
3355
3356Yukiko Kami [11:19 AM]
3357indeed
3358
3359AlmafuerteUK [11:19 AM]
3360the newbros benefit through srp and the dojo
3361
3362Bisness Pirates [11:19 AM]
3363Well, that's what was the case when I had an active goon spy
3364
3365Yukiko Kami [11:19 AM]
3366more like a gentlemans agreement
3367
3368Sir Trekkypj [11:20 AM]
3369It's almost like CCP need to re-design the corp/alliance/coalition system to make taxation easier
3370:thonking:
3371
3372Bisness Pirates [11:20 AM]
3373Though the make ISK from getting blown up is standard for goons. They got things like 120% SRP on logi and such
3374
3375Berend Antollare [11:20 AM]
3376@trekkypj why?
3377
3378Yukiko Kami [11:20 AM]
3379nah, they need to fix the game so that taxation isn't that necessary
3380
3381Sir Trekkypj [11:21 AM]
3382think about it. some activities have taxation gates. Some don't
3383
3384Bisness Pirates [11:21 AM]
3385I don't see a way to fix the game that taxation isn't necessary
3386
3387Aernir Ridley [11:21 AM]
3388No, we just need to think of viable moneymaking methods. You think goons, TEST and PH got as rich as they are by bumping up taxes? No, they found a niche which made them ISK
3389
3390Bisness Pirates [11:21 AM]
3391Because I doubt alliances wouldn't want to keep offering something like SRP
3392
3393Berend Antollare [11:21 AM]
3394and I don't see a way to tax some things automatically
3395
3396Yukiko Kami [11:21 AM]
3397well they would
3398but they couldn'T
3399:wink:
3400
3401Sir Trekkypj [11:21 AM]
3402a lot of our discussion involves us re-engineering ESI to collect data and use it to tax people
3403
3404Berend Antollare [11:21 AM]
3405How would you tax mining?
3406Automatically
3407
3408Bisness Pirates [11:22 AM]
3409@trekkypj at least for mining that's already done for the moongoo :stuck_out_tongue:
3410Would still require to reauth everyone to get their moonledger though
3411mining*
3412
3413Sir Trekkypj [11:22 AM]
3414what you need to do is identify the points at which the raw material gets exchanged for isk
3415whether that is on the market, or reprocessing, or whatever
3416
3417Berend Antollare [11:22 AM]
3418Which for ore is contracts
3419
3420Sir Trekkypj [11:23 AM]
3421yep.
3422
3423Berend Antollare [11:23 AM]
3424How would you tax that?
3425
3426Sir Trekkypj [11:23 AM]
3427CCP could re-engineer the corp screen to set tax rates for these things
3428
3429Berend Antollare [11:23 AM]
3430How?
3431
3432Darkworlds Shaishi [11:23 AM]
3433No, omg just get the mining ledgers
3434and tax the mining
3435
3436Sir Trekkypj [11:23 AM]
3437stamp duty
3438a contract for isk gets a tax imposed
3439
3440Berend Antollare [11:24 AM]
3441So we'd need to go through each contract?
3442
3443Sir Trekkypj [11:24 AM]
3444no
3445
3446Darkworlds Shaishi [11:24 AM]
3447Or just don't and ignore the miners and carry on
3448
3449Berend Antollare [11:24 AM]
3450What if I contract the ore for 0 ISK to the buyback?
3451
3452Sir Trekkypj [11:24 AM]
3453then that's tax evasion
3454lol
3455
3456Berend Antollare [11:24 AM]
3457Why?
3458I'm just asking them to determine the price
3459
3460Sir Trekkypj [11:25 AM]
3461i see what you are getting at of course
3462but what happens in that situation is that the tax burden moves down the chain
3463
3464Yukiko Kami [11:25 AM]
3465no tax, no srp, no hassle :wink:
3466
3467Metric Candy [11:26 AM]
3468no structures...
3469
3470Berend Antollare [11:26 AM]
3471No sov
3472
3473Sir Trekkypj [11:26 AM]
3474no sov
3475lol
3476
3477Berend Antollare [11:26 AM]
3478Back to FW everyone
3479
3480Koffee Break [11:26 AM]
3481the dream!
3482
3483Aernir Ridley [11:26 AM]
3484In the choice between mail in taxes for ore and no taxes, the choice which will cause the least harm is no taxes.
3485
3486You want to make isk for the alliance? Institute a Corp tax, rent out some of the extremely valuable space we own but barely use, negotiate (or brute force) our way to owning a trade hub, open up more moons for public mining. We do have options here.
3487
3488Yukiko Kami [11:26 AM]
3489pffft, would make your life a metric ton easier @metric_candy
3490
3491Sir Trekkypj [11:26 AM]
3492i'm not dismissing what you are saying Berend
3493
3494Metric Candy [11:27 AM]
3495haha yeah :slightly_smiling_face:
3496
3497Sir Trekkypj [11:27 AM]
3498and you're right. There are flaws in my suggestions.
3499
3500Berend Antollare [11:27 AM]
3501@trekkypj I know and I'm sympathetic to the idea. I just don't see a way for CCP to enforce this (edited) 
3502
3503Aernir Ridley [11:27 AM]
3504And IMO renting is the most viable option here, we own some damn good space in the middle of nowhere that barely gets any neuts and barely gets any usage from our members.
3505
3506Sir Trekkypj [11:28 AM]
3507they could do better with tax mechanics generally tho
3508
3509Aernir Ridley [11:28 AM]
3510I'm talking about central Catch
3511
3512Berend Antollare [11:28 AM]
3513Get our members to use it better?
3514
3515Aernir Ridley [11:28 AM]
3516Why? We don't need it at the moment, and God knows the alliance could make an absolute killing renting it out considering its benefits.
3517
3518Yukiko Kami [11:28 AM]
3519every suggestion has flaws, hell I know my suggestion has a lot of them
3520
3521Berend Antollare [11:29 AM]
3522Also, @adog the option that causes the least effort, not the least harm
3523
3524Yukiko Kami [11:29 AM]
3525the current state is just playing into the min/max titans online doctrine which is why everyone does it this way
3526
3527Sir Trekkypj [11:29 AM]
3528ledger mining seems to be the best way if we use ESIs to figure it out
3529
3530Indybro/Wang Cavin-Guang [11:29 AM]
3531If our members aren't using good space, rent it
3532
3533Aernir Ridley [11:29 AM]
3534^^^^
3535
3536Sir Trekkypj [11:29 AM]
3537(as opposed to mining ledger) (edited) 
3538
3539Yukiko Kami [11:30 AM]
3540I mean, we can drop impass and feyt and use the good space :wink:
3541
3542Berend Antollare [11:30 AM]
354310% taxes won't cause any harm and sure getting everyone to re-auth is a pain but could be done
3544
3545Darkworlds Shaishi [11:30 AM]
3546^^^
3547And its fair
3548
3549Yukiko Kami [11:30 AM]
3550still it's quite a lot of work
3551
3552Sir Trekkypj [11:30 AM]
3553re-auth will happen at some point as services get changed
3554
3555Bisness Pirates [11:30 AM]
3556So, just on the whole PR part of mining taxes
3557
3558Aernir Ridley [11:30 AM]
3559It most certainly will cause harm
3560
3561Berend Antollare [11:30 AM]
3562Why?
3563
3564Darkworlds Shaishi [11:30 AM]
3565Aernir what harm?
3566
3567Bisness Pirates [11:30 AM]
3568I just got told in voltron that apparently Dreddit has them.
3569
3570Darkworlds Shaishi [11:30 AM]
3571People leaving
3572?
3573
3574Bisness Pirates [11:30 AM]
3575And was received quite well
3576
3577Darkworlds Shaishi [11:30 AM]
3578If people leave because of tax
3579you don;t want them
3580
3581Sir Trekkypj [11:31 AM]
3582the taxes would have to be punitive
358310% is not excessive
3584
3585Darkworlds Shaishi [11:31 AM]
3586people should pay a fair share for the services they;re provided with
3587
3588Berend Antollare [11:31 AM]
3589I'd be ok with 10-15% tax if we keep the SRP for saves
3590
3591Bisness Pirates [11:31 AM]
3592Note that you would definitely have to bring it in a proper way and probably immediately introduce a program that you're using that new tax money for of course.
3593
3594Darkworlds Shaishi [11:32 AM]
3595@bisnesspirate did you say Dreddit has mining tax
3596
3597Sir Trekkypj [11:32 AM]
3598yep what do other alliances do
3599
3600Yukiko Kami [11:32 AM]
3601you think organising SRP on your own would cost more than 10-15% tax?
3602
3603Sir Trekkypj [11:32 AM]
3604always a good idea to look?
3605
3606Bisness Pirates [11:32 AM]
3607yes, dreddit has according to Cornak
3608
3609Darkworlds Shaishi [11:32 AM]
3610Well
3611
3612Meha Taredi [11:32 AM]
3613honestly if we fuck up rorq saves for the sake of saving up on SRP we'll probably lose a lot more in economic activity taxes
3614
3615Aernir Ridley [11:32 AM]
3616We are not Dreddit, BNI is a newbie focused Corp, and one that touts its members' freedom. As I said before, it's a checkbox against us when compared to Karmafleet, Horde, and Brand Newbros
3617
3618Meha Taredi [11:33 AM]
3619again this somehow wasn't an issue 2 months ago when we had very successful saves, and suddenly is an issue because we had a couple bad saves?
3620I don't get it.
3621
3622Berend Antollare [11:33 AM]
3623@yukiko_kami if it means self organising for all saves (carriers, rorqs, supers, orcas, whatever)
3624
3625Bisness Pirates [11:33 AM]
3626Sure, there is always going to be some cultural difference. But it shows that it can be done.
3627
3628Berend Antollare [11:33 AM]
3629@meha_taredi it's not the save itself
3630or the cost
3631
3632Aernir Ridley [11:33 AM]
3633I never said it couldn't be done, I said it'd be a PR nightmare
3634
3635Yukiko Kami [11:34 AM]
3636my stance literally hasn't change since ever
3637
3638Bisness Pirates [11:34 AM]
3639I doubt that the PR nightmare would be as bad as you think it would be.
3640
3641Meha Taredi [11:34 AM]
3642Then what is it - that Cagali spoke about taxes, mining taxes are a big hassle therefore rorquals are suddenly a burden on the alliance.
3643
3644Berend Antollare [11:34 AM]
3645Yuki suggested rorq/ratting carrier/super/orca/venture/VNI saves shouldn't be SRP
3646
3647Meha Taredi [11:35 AM]
3648If I don't believe I"m going to be saved I'm not gonna undock a 7 bil sitting duck ship for 100mil/h.
3649
3650Berend Antollare [11:35 AM]
3651^^
3652But the suggestion was that rorq pilots should make their own SRP fund (edited) 
3653
3654Catherine Andedare [11:36 AM]
3655Meha, I'd guess you would, just probably not under the Brave banner. At least, that's what I'd expect most to do.
3656
3657Aernir Ridley [11:36 AM]
3658Alright, let's think through it this way; you're a newbro that just joined the alliance. Your main method of making money is mining in a proc, so you mine for a week, and suddenly have a 10 million ISK mail-in tax on what you mined. When you learn that Horde and Karmafleet don't have such a tax, you're going to make a choice on whether or not to stay based on this.
3659
3660Berend Antollare [11:36 AM]
3661Tbf that won't be your only criteria
3662
3663Aernir Ridley [11:37 AM]
3664No, but when you've only been here for a week the more important ones like culture and community haven't established themselves yet
3665
3666Berend Antollare [11:37 AM]
3667Fair enough
3668
3669Meha Taredi [11:37 AM]
3670it's probably just better to think of ways to raise money for the SRP fund rather than having a special rorq save SRP fund (edited) 
3671
3672Berend Antollare [11:38 AM]
3673^^
3674
3675Aernir Ridley [11:39 AM]
3676In a bit I'll put together a renting proposal for systems we don't use, I think you'll be surprised how much money can be made off of even a small amount of systems.
3677
3678Sir Trekkypj [11:43 AM]
3679the thing we have to remember is this. There is no point whatsoever in taxing an activity if doing so (a) is a lot of  hassle to collect; (b) allows for avoidance; or (c) causes decrease in overall production greater than the amount of tax collected
3680
3681Card Bross [11:43 AM]
3682What's the incentive to pay to rent a system Brave isnt currently using vs joining Brave and using it for free?
3683
3684Aernir Ridley [11:44 AM]
3685Ownership of the space
3686
3687Bisness Pirates [11:44 AM]
3688set your own taxes I guess
3689
3690Jana Halley [11:44 AM]
3691I feel like renting has caused a lot of problems in the past.
3692
3693Aernir Ridley [11:44 AM]
3694That question can be applied to literally any rental system
3695If we did rent it out we'd lock it down of course
3696
3697Card Bross [11:45 AM]
3698Well, no, if omist renters don't pay for protection, they'll get evicted. Brave is going to defend YALR (or wherever) regardless of whether Brave is paid to do it
3699Because we don't want hostiles near our space
3700
3701Aernir Ridley [11:46 AM]
3702If they don't pay we can just evict them?
3703The point is a relatively secure area of space to live in
3704And you think test would let hostiles move to Omist?
3705It borders Eso
3706
3707Card Bross [11:49 AM]
3708Test would let other friendlies take over the space. Brave isn't choosing which friendlies to install in its sov
3709
3710Indybro/Wang Cavin-Guang [11:53 AM]
3711The sov stays under brave
3712There shouldn't be a problem if the alliance we house the renter's under has standings properly set up with legacy
3713
3714Indybro/Wang Cavin-Guang [12:01 PM]
3715Or do a GSF and house renters under GSF (I think that's how it works)
3716
3717Jana Halley [12:02 PM]
3718And then a newbro enters one of the systems and starts mining and there is drama
3719
3720Indybro/Wang Cavin-Guang [12:03 PM]
3721That should be outlined in the rental agreement and that there's an expectation of renters to be reasonable about it (edited) 
3722It's easy to point out what's wrong in all different ideas, but renting is probably the easiest to do
3723
3724Berend Antollare [12:06 PM]
3725Idk for some reason I have something against renters
3726
3727Aernir Ridley [12:07 PM]
3728You can charge several billion isk a week for good systems, like it or not it's probably one of the best options.
3729
3730Zavrik Allele [12:07 PM]
3731Rent catch out as a thunderdome with Brave’s cap force to discourage cap drops on young null sec groups renting there v0v
3732
3733Aernir Ridley [12:07 PM]
3734I haven't given up on The Catch Fight Club :-smile:
3735
3736Zavrik Allele [12:07 PM]
3737That’s what they’d be paying for anyways, right?
3738A clause in the agreement that Brave reserves the right to run subcap fleets for training new FC’s in the thunderdome.
3739Win-win. New FC’s aren’t outclassed while learning and renters don’t get pitted agains T2 HAC mobs.
3740
3741Indybro/Wang Cavin-Guang [12:18 PM]
3742@adog this might interest you, and anyone else
3743Going off Horde's rental prices: https://bit.ly/2WxZA5U
3744Finding the nearest true sec below and taking the price from that. You get a rough idea of how much we can charge for systems.
3745It's not a robust formula and breaks down because the data I used is pretty limited, but it's a start.
3746image.png 
3747
3748
3749Alazaar Dameion [12:28 PM]
3750YOU CANT TAKE B-X
3751
3752Aernir Ridley [12:28 PM]
3753About 25 bil a month for the T-1 constellation, not bad, but I don't see us renting out those systems. I was thinking the 6JCS-4 constellation
3754
3755Catherine Andedare [12:28 PM]
3756Having a Brave sponsored fight club constellation would be amazing. :congaroto:
3757
3758Indybro/Wang Cavin-Guang [12:28 PM]
3759Don't worry Alazaar, it was just an example
3760
3761Aernir Ridley [12:28 PM]
3762http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Catch/6JCS-4#sec
3763evemaps.dotlan.net
3764DOTLAN EveMaps: Map: Catch
3765DOTLAN EveMaps is the leading online/interactive map/alliance/corporation resource database for Eve Online
3766
3767Chagrin Case [12:29 PM]
3768I would rent 8B- for 500m :hyperthonk:
3769
3770Aernir Ridley [12:29 PM]
3771That constellation is in a beautiful area of space with no traffic, and gets almost no use because of it's distance from our core systems.
3772Also most importantly none of it class A space like the adjacent A-J constellation
3773
3774Indybro/Wang Cavin-Guang [12:30 PM]
3775image.png 
3776
37772 ice belts too
3778you can charge an arm for that
3779
3780Aernir Ridley [12:31 PM]
3781With the ice you could probably get 25 bil a month out of that constellation
3782And if you look at the ADMs we literally utilize none of them
3783That right there is an ISK printing opportunity
3784@yukiko_kami see above, I think we have a proposal (edited) 
3785
3786Pak Feury [12:37 PM]
3787replied to a thread:
3788It doesn't help when Requiem has cheaper market taxes in their IRE keepstar than Brave does in the PZMA keepstar
3789
3790Shattered Armer [12:38 PM]
3791replied to a thread:
3792No? FCs have always had their FC boats SRP-able. I dunno what @Who is talking about. :cagalithinking:
3793
3794https://wiki.bravecollective.com/member/alliance/programs/ship-replacement#other_srp_reimbursements
3795
3796Shattered Armer [12:40 PM]
3797replied to a thread:
3798Nobody in Legacy pays their FCs, not even Test. Most Fleet Commanders in Eve are in it for the glory, not the compensation.
3799
3800Xandar Valle [12:41 PM]
3801Reee don’t take my isk making system Aernir. Do you want me Rorq mining in GE or 3GD6?
3802
3803Indybro/Wang Cavin-Guang [12:41 PM]
3804GE
3805content :sun:
3806or SF drops
3807
3808Aernir Ridley [12:42 PM]
3809Sorry Xandar, but the ADMs don't lie lol, come to Impass
3810
3811Shattered Armer [12:43 PM]
3812replied to a thread:
3813The alpha talwar program isn't just about teaching FCs. Its a casual roaming opportunity, where your ships are paid for and your content (Horde or NC renters) is guaranteed.
3814
3815Xandar Valle [12:45 PM]
3816I will feed it to sf before going back to Impass. Impass is where PvP pilots go to die as krabs
3817
3818Aernir Ridley [12:46 PM]
3819I mean if you want to PvP as a krabbing pilot then yeah actually GE or 3GD is the place to go lol
3820
3821Xandar Valle [12:46 PM]
3822Since I left Impass I’ve had 1/10th the isk but the game is actually fun
3823
3824Davidkaa Smith [12:49 PM]
3825and is your 1/10 isk enough to keep the fun up?
3826
3827Xandar Valle [12:51 PM]
3828Barely I roam public moons
3829
3830Jellel Hakkim [12:58 PM]
3831This weeks Talking in Stations was all about renting, they had Goons and NC. rental CEOs on, was damn informative. TL;DR it’s damn profitable
3832
3833Meha Taredi [1:06 PM]
3834Why not both? I spend a week crabbing then I go spend a week in FW getting a bunch of kills. There's no reason to feel compelled to do one thing all the time in BRAVE especially.
3835Xandar Valle
3836Since I left Impass I’ve had 1/10th the isk but the game is actually fun
3837Posted in #criticise-cagaliToday at 12:46 PMView message
3838
3839Xandar Valle [1:12 PM]
3840Ah but I do. I hate Impass with a passion. The isk is addictive but it isn’t fun. In catch I can have my PvP main ready to go at any time. Can’t do that in Impass
3841I burned myself out once there already. Never again.
3842
3843Swakhammer [1:14 PM]
3844Whatever your fun per hours is! That's a good way to play the game
3845
3846Alexis Finch [1:41 PM]
3847*wakes up*
3848"900+ unread messages"
3849The horror... this is gonna take a bit to read.
3850
3851Tian Khamez [1:43 PM]
3852you all take too much - use the forum :laughing:
3853talk*
3854
3855Meha Taredi [1:46 PM]
3856I lost a fight with an Imp Navy Slicer while reading all this, since I was distracted and had my modules in the wrong places. :reeeintensifies:
3857
3858Patrick Gisre [1:54 PM]
3859the best place to catch mining taxes is at refining, because that is where ccp intended to catch mining with tax on them. so if you want mining to be taxed more, do it in reprocessing stage. trying to collect the "mining tax" anywhere else has more problems than solutions. as with taxes go the end-consumer always pays them not matter which wallet the alliance takes them out of.
3860
3861Jellel Hakkim [1:55 PM]
3862Meha - do you FW on your brave main, or do you have a FW toon
3863
3864Meha Taredi [1:55 PM]
3865on main
3866I just have a clone in Rens
3867
3868Jellel Hakkim [1:55 PM]
3869I was almost exclusively FW for my first four years, kinda miss it
3870Still have a TON of stuff in Rens/Hek
3871
3872Meha Taredi [1:56 PM]
3873I don't actually join it just go there and shoot at everyone that way you get more targets
3874
3875Jellel Hakkim [1:56 PM]
3876Yeah FW fleets are not fun
3877I might have to get back out there esp with my Nubs toon so close to Content Heaven
3878
3879Meha Taredi [1:57 PM]
3880We also have #faction-warfare
3881
3882Ignacius Kh'orlan [2:51 PM]
3883Shattered when he talks about #criticise-cagali in fleet
3884image.png 
3885
3886
3887Indybro/Wang Cavin-Guang [2:53 PM]
3888"Those guys talk way too much"
3889"I'm more of the silent type :kinkysun: "
3890
3891Adrian Atruin [2:54 PM]
38925ilent's alt confirmed
3893
3894Cagali Cagali [4:19 PM]
38951800+ messages in here.
3896
3897I can already smell the drama ffs
3898
3899Alexis Finch [4:19 PM]
3900*shudders* I already read through it. It's painful.
3901I am so, so sorry
3902xD
3903
3904Chagrin Case [4:20 PM]
3905TLDR : :reeesun: :salt:
3906
3907Swakhammer [4:21 PM]
3908Ignacius posted a picture about 3 or 4 posts up that sums up those 1800 messages
3909
3910Eisenmeower Dodo [4:23 PM]
3911any tl:dr of the drama?
3912
3913Card Bross [4:24 PM]
3914Yeah, all criticism is drama, that way you can safely ignore it and be sure you're in the right (edited) 
3915
3916Diece Opherus [4:24 PM]
3917Good thing you live in the upside down part of the world cags, that’s only +0081 messages.
3918
3919Eisenmeower Dodo [4:24 PM]
3920ppl say that they read everything in here, but that seems almost unfeasible on days like this
3921
3922Diece Opherus [4:25 PM]
3923*infeasible
3924
3925Jana Halley [4:26 PM]
3926If you read it while it comes in, it's really not that bad
3927
3928Alexis Finch [4:27 PM]
3929Then you have to sleep *shudders*
3930
3931Eisenmeower Dodo [4:27 PM]
3932It seems like both infeasible and unfeasible are a thing. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/unfeasible
3933merriam-webster.com
3934Definition of UNFEASIBLE
3935not capable of being done or carried out : not feasible… See the full definition
3936possibly one of those instances where the mis-spelling happens often enough that it is canonized
3937
3938Diece Opherus [4:27 PM]
3939But you’re not in Uncredible.
3940
3941Eisenmeower Dodo [4:28 PM]
3942I'm Discredible
3943
3944Diece Opherus [4:29 PM]
3945https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GIGtHhAfe8w
3946YouTubeezpuddin
3947three amigos infamous
3948
3949Cagali Cagali [4:34 PM]
3950https://brave-collective.slack.com/archives/CEHRV5WKZ/p1558025743057700
3951
3952Negative. It was "red BBQ sauce." Not sure what that means actually, but I invite you to go compare the ingredients on bbq and tomato sauce. Hot tip, 99% identical)
3953
3954Bacon and egg rolls should only have cheese on, and not sauce in the first place. They should taste like bacon, eggs, and maybe cheese. Not like sauce.
3955
3956Fight me IRL
3957Stars Storm
3958He had a freaking bacon and egg brekky roll WITH TOMATO SAUCE INSTEAD OF BARBECUE. it was absolute heresy of the highest order
3959Posted in #criticise-cagaliToday at 9:55 AMView message
3960
3961Eisenmeower Dodo [4:35 PM]
3962you need to wear the parrot head longer during sotas. I was waiting for just the right moment to screenshot the craziest still I could, but then you abruptly took it off
3963
3964Cagali Cagali [4:46 PM]
3965Sorry. Next time
3966
3967Xandar Valle [4:48 PM]
3968Eh depends @cagali maple syrup is pretty good on breakfast sandwiches
3969
3970
3971Cagali Cagali [5:01 PM]
3972Stop it
3973You bloody barbarian
3974
3975Sir Trekkypj [5:03 PM]
3976that's only for americans for pancakes and bacon.
3977or waffles
3978
3979Elvis Hanomaa [5:20 PM]
3980syrup on a sandwich? what is the world coming to
3981
3982Jellel Hakkim [5:27 PM]
3983Ok, so this: Fried Chicken, Tabasco, and Maple Syrup. You can thank me later.
3984All of that on waffles = welcome to Chicago
3985
3986Xandar Valle [5:42 PM]
3987Oh man that sounds great. All it need is the chicken to be fried. Fried chicken on waffles is fantastic.
3988Also syrup is great on sandwiches. If it is good syrup. Not like that aunt jemima shit but proper NH grade A dark maple. (edited) 
3989Not too sweet and all the flavor.
3990
3991Jellel Hakkim [5:56 PM]
3992Amen :raised_hands:
3993Best lemonade you ever had: Squeeze a bag of  fresh lemons into a pitcher (1 qt) and add a cup of real maple syrup. Shake it up, add a pinch of cayenne pepper. Vodka if it’s after noon. :)
3994
3995bctech [6:22 PM]
3996you people are disgusting
3997maple syrup with Tabasco and lemons........ shame
3998
3999Stars Storm [6:28 PM]
4000I like the habanero Tabasco
4001
4002Xandar Valle [6:39 PM]
4003Oh man. Best dip ever. Get some proper maple syrup + Dijon mustard. Dip corn fritters and love them.
4004
4005Jellel Hakkim [6:55 PM]
4006Now you’re talkin’
4007
4008Bctech - most lemonade is just a cup of white sugar poured into a quart of processed lemon juice. Substitute the real thing, and maple syrup for the white sugar, and voila. Try it.
4009Pinch of cayenne pepper. Not tobasco. (Tabasco has vinegar base which tastes like shit in lemonade.) Crush some fresh mint in it, add rum. Lime wedge garnish. Redneck Mojito. (edited) 
4010
4011Jellel Hakkim [6:59 PM]
4012Great for tailgating