7TZsXCZz

1
2Session Start: Sun Jul 23 13:07:36 2017
3Session Ident: #politics
403[13:07] * Now talking in #politics
503[13:07] * Topic is 'Welcome to #politics | Official home of r/politics on Snoonet | Rules: No personal attacks / insults against users. Do not incite, condone or wish violence. No hate speech | Sean Spicer Resigns Megathread https://redd.it/6oowgx'
603[13:07] * Set by likeafox!sid236015@user/likeafox on Fri Jul 21 15:08:57 2017
7[13:07] <Otiosorrhea> likeafox: ?
8[13:07] <zoekayno`> this is a sick fantasy meier
9[13:07] <meier> where does it say in the constitution that congress can veto the president sending tanks to congress
10[13:07] <meier> nowhere
11[13:07] <zoekayno`> viol,ence isnt the american method
12[13:07] <UKDivided> I think my vista joke just missed
13[13:08] <meier> violence is the american method
14[13:08] <zoekayno`> its telling you would jump to the 'solution' used by russia
15[13:08] <meier> americans fought more wars than the chinese
1606[13:08] * dataman notices the echo chamber of USA bashing
17[13:08] <zoekayno`> constitutional violence tho
18[13:08] <zoekayno`> tanks are not constitutional
19[13:08] <meier> it is constitutional
20[13:08] <meier> nowhere in the constitution does it say
21[13:08] <zoekayno`> you cant get there from here
22[13:08] <meier> that the president cant send tanks to congress
23[13:08] <meier> its a legitimate executive ordetr
24[13:08] <meier> as commander in chief
25[13:08] <zoekayno`> no it isnt
26[13:09] <meier> 2nd amendment also dictates a militia be formed against unconstitutional government
27[13:09] <zoekayno`> oh boy
28[13:09] <zoekayno`> is that exactly what is says
29[13:09] <meier> elizabeth warren wants to take away our guns
30[13:09] <meier> our drugs
31[13:09] <meier> our freedoms
32[13:09] <meier> our freedom from low taxes
33[13:10] <zoekayno`> looking now, aha exact quote "dictates a militia be formed against unconstitutional government"
34[13:10] <zoekayno`> you were right thats exactly what it said
35[13:10] <meier> dick durbin
36[13:10] <meier> chuck schumer
37[13:10] <meier> they are all promoting unconstitutional rule of lawlessness
38[13:10] <zoekayno`> cryin chuck
39[13:10] <zoekayno`> you have to use the nicknames
40[13:11] <meier> impeachment takes too long
41[13:11] <Truncated> All right, that's enough nonsense for me.
42[13:11] <meier> we can evacuate all the republicans
43[13:11] <zoekayno`> executive order 229010
44[13:11] <meier> prior to shelling congress
45[13:11] <meier> do u agree?
46[13:11] <meier> would u be ok if just the democrats get blown up?
47[13:11] <zoekayno`> evacuate them to where
4800[13:11] <04dataman> meier in here promoting political violence
49[13:11] <meier> white house
50[13:11] <zoekayno`> no i dont want any violence
51[13:11] <zoekayno`> if you are serious ill have to notify law enforcement too
52[13:11] <zoekayno`> so i hope you arent serious
53[13:12] <zoekayno`> me or the mods
5403[13:12] * likeafox sets mode: -b *!loathiings@117.sub-174-205-1.myvzw.com
55[13:12] <zoekayno`> i assume someones in charge of stuff like that?
56[13:12] <UKDivided> freedom from low taxes?
57[13:12] <meier> zoekayno' i have to be reported to the mental hospital
58[13:12] <meier> for expressing what i think trump should do
59[13:12] <zoekayno`> no. its threats of violence
60[13:12] <zoekayno`> civil society takes that seriously
61[13:12] <meier> i dont personally plan to hurt anyone
62[13:13] <meier> im a politically philosopher
63[13:13] <zoekayno`> when did ypu embrace such violence
6400[13:13] <04dataman> you call for it
6500[13:13] <04dataman> which is a crime
66[13:13] <zoekayno`> fantasizing about tanks, thats dr william piece stuff
67[13:13] <@likeafox> meir: don't even suggest violence, even if you're joking
68[13:13] <zoekayno`> thats neo nazi
69[13:13] <@likeafox> We take that seriously
70[13:13] <meier> what about pardon power
71[13:13] <zoekayno`> its too much meier
72[13:13] <zoekayno`> your a sick person
7300[13:13] <04dataman> *warning* for inciting violence lol
74[13:13] <zoekayno`> youre
75[13:13] <meier> cant trump send tanks to congress then pardon everyone who were participating in it
76[13:14] <TheRomanticPianist> You're back dataman, good.
77[13:14] <zoekayno`> do you see how thats sociopathic thinking?
7800[13:14] <04dataman> not for long, they are plotting
79[13:14] <meier> so i have to be punished under brandenburg v. ohio now?
80[13:14] <zoekayno`> yeah dataman we've missed you
81[13:14] <meier> i read that brandenburg v ohio says i have to be punished
82[13:14] <meier> is that true?
83[13:14] <TheRomanticPianist> Where's argentum ? Hello buddy? Didn't you want to talk to dataman ?
84[13:14] <zoekayno`> consult your attorney
8500[13:14] <04dataman> im sure it felt like a NICE poltiical discussion in here, but thats an illusion because youre all in the SAME PARTY so you just agree to everything and pat yourselves on the back
86[13:14] <meier> can i get elizabeth warren to pay for my attorney
87[13:14] <@likeafox> !ban +7d meier
8803[13:14] * meier was kicked by NSA (Requested (likeafox))
8903[13:14] * NSA sets mode: +b *!*@Snoonet-dl1.8cj.1pgf3c.IP
90[13:15] <@likeafox> I read back through the logs - inciting or suggesting violence is a no
91[13:16] <Duck> !op
9203[13:16] * NSA sets mode: +o Duck
9303[13:16] * Duck sets mode: +b *!*@Snoonet-dme.ep3.m9vhpr.IP
94[13:16] <@Duck> !deop
9503[13:16] * NSA sets mode: -o Duck
96[13:16] <TheRomanticPianist> ?
97[13:16] <Duck> sorry, just adding a host in there
9811[13:16] * Attempting to rejoin channel #politics
9903[13:16] * Rejoined channel #politics
10003[13:16] * Topic is 'Welcome to #politics | Official home of r/politics on Snoonet | Rules: No personal attacks / insults against users. Do not incite, condone or wish violence. No hate speech | Sean Spicer Resigns Megathread https://redd.it/6oowgx'
10103[13:16] * Set by likeafox!sid236015@user/likeafox on Fri Jul 21 15:08:57 2017
102[13:16] <Duck> i could have used !ban but meh
103[13:16] <TheRomanticPianist> :P
104[13:16] <Duck> dont worry dataman it isnt you
10500[13:16] <04dataman> i expected it to be.
106[13:17] <zoekayno`> dataman, any comments on trump's curiousity on a self pardon?
107[13:17] <zoekayno`> you still take him to be clean and free of all crimes?
10800[13:17] <04dataman> the point is he cant OOJ in flynns case obviously
10900[13:17] <04dataman> he has no crime against him durrrrr
110[13:17] <Kichigai> Well, no, he can OOJ in Flynn's case.
11100[13:17] <04dataman> how can you OOJ if you have pardon power?
112[13:18] <Kichigai> Whether he has or has not is another story.
113[13:18] <zoekayno`> say he were guilty of jaywalking or something, can he pardon himself
11400[13:18] <04dataman> is this where you talk about nixon who was caught on tape offering hush money for a real breaking & entering crime he ordered?
11500[13:18] <04dataman> trump hasnt OOJ at all and cant be charged for it
116[13:18] <zoekayno`> you can be charged with anything
11700[13:18] <04dataman> lol
11800[13:19] <04dataman> that was quick, smoked out a legal scholar here
119[13:19] <zoekayno`> the king cant go to his own court
120[13:19] <zoekayno`> but trump's no king
121[13:20] <TheRomanticPianist> He's the president
12200[13:20] <04dataman> reminds of me king obama and his chess piece named comey acting as a fixer for his crooks
123[13:20] <zoekayno`> watch him speedrun firing sessions, mueller, and pardoning everyone including all on the same day
124[13:20] <zoekayno`> including himself
12500[13:20] <04dataman> comey protected HRC, podest, lynch, rice, abedin, weiner etc etc etc
126[13:20] <zoekayno`> trumps like that guy on 9/11 who surfed down the collapsing towers to safety
127[13:21] <zoekayno`> he thrives on this stuff
12800[13:21] <04dataman> yet you talk about charging the king and have no charge against trump to even begin with
129[13:21] <zoekayno`> of course he will try to collapse it all and surf on down
13000[13:21] <04dataman> draw up a whole special counsel to LOOK for crime rather than investigate crime that took place
131[13:21] <Manos> Remember when Comey tanked Hillary's polls just before the election? So in the bag for her
13200[13:21] <04dataman> she still almost won, thank god she didnt
133[13:21] <Snoo44569> ive made 10 freinds this ear
134[13:22] <TheRomanticPianist> Almost won yes, lel
135[13:22] <zoekayno`> manos yeah those were happier, simpler times
136[13:22] <zoekayno`> back when we were young and innocent
137[13:22] <TheRomanticPianist> You're not innocent now?
138[13:22] <TheRomanticPianist> What a surprise
139[13:22] <UKDivided> TheRomanticPianist: he was pardoned
140[13:23] <TheRomanticPianist> zoekayno`: was pardoned?
141[13:23] <UKDivided> hence he is innocent now
142[13:23] <UKDivided> it was a joke
143[13:23] <UKDivided> .coffee UKDivided
14406[13:23] * +gonzobot hands UKDivided a small cold cinnamon breve with one shots of espresso!
145[13:23] <zoekayno`> i accept the pardon while maintaining innocence of any and all crimes i may have committed or not
146[13:24] <zoekayno`> especially russia
147[13:24] <zoekayno`> the pardonburger with fries
148[13:25] <Manos> I was expecting Flynn to pull the whole "I'll testify in exchange for immunity", then cop to everything, taking all the blame for past and future violations while secure from prosecution.
149[13:25] <zoekayno`> everyone expected that so they must have told him it wouldnt be working that way
15003[13:25] * Joins: Ruhan (uid76353@user/ruhan)
151[13:25] <zoekayno`> the oliver north trick
152[13:26] <zoekayno`> have these guys ever done anything that ISNT illegal? its like, to find crimes you basically look at anything theyve ever done
153[13:27] <zoekayno`> imagine having the audacity to run for president knowing youre THAT dirty
15403[13:27] * Joins: Moose (Moose@Snoonet-lalkik.j5v4.j41g.jops3i.IP)
155[13:27] <zoekayno`> then just being all, well ill be getting rid of law enforcement and IC now
156[13:27] <zoekayno`> replacing it with my boys
157[13:27] <@corvusmalus> Manos, i guess trump is fucking scared about them finding financial crimes in his or the records of his family, which mueller, but also the committees has requested for many years back. if those are also state crimes, he has no pardon power for that. and this is all scrutinized just now.
158[13:27] <zoekayno`> a goldfish like trump not firing mueller before this is over is impossible
15903[13:28] * Moose is now known as Snoo59010
160[13:28] <zoekayno`> yeah theyve got him dead to rights on state stuff
161[13:28] <jellyb> im not sure loathiing will come back
162[13:29] <Manos> Nobody's gonna care if they catch him cooking the books a bit.
163[13:29] <zoekayno`> by the time we, the legitimately patriotic americans, put an end to this, trump and most of his family are stripped of assets, power, and freedoms as punishments for their crimes
164[13:29] <Manos> He may have worse problems in his finances though.
165[13:29] <zoekayno`> its that simple. rejoice
166[13:30] <zoekayno`> he aaint worried because hes clean
167[13:30] <@corvusmalus> Manos, yeah, it is alone very interesting what the deutsche bank sent them. those credits are very shady.
168[13:30] <zoekayno`> he's dirty as it gets and mueller's reviewing it all
169[13:30] <jellyb> hes clean
170[13:30] <jellyb> and he'll be fully exonerated
171[13:30] <jellyb> the democrats only have one option
172[13:30] <zoekayno`> lol clean
173[13:30] <jellyb> to let mueller run the investigation the full four years
174[13:30] <zoekayno`> clean men dont inquire on if they may self-pardon
175[13:31] <zoekayno`> 6 months in and its pardon time already
176[13:31] <jellyb> because if he ever ends the investigation the liberals will lose all credibility
177[13:31] <zoekayno`> who knew theyd be THIS bad
178[13:31] <zoekayno`> what permanent stains these creatures are
179[13:31] <zoekayno`> the real stain is the encouragement the evil received
180[13:31] <jellyb> hillary pardoned all of her lackeys at the state dept
181[13:32] <jellyb> or got pardons from her bff obama
182[13:32] <zoekayno`> bbut hillary
183[13:32] <zoekayno`> that all you got? hillary?
184[13:32] <@corvusmalus> jellyb, he is cooperating with the organized crimes, state crime or services of at least half a dozen countries for a quite long time. and so probably do many people of his circle/family. and then there is still the conspiracy case related to cohen and his wrong statements to get credits.
185[13:32] <Manos> The problem with your outlook jellyb is that the investigation's already paid off. It's no longer a case of the Dems losing face - the Trump camp has been caught is way too many lies for any but the most out of touch to concede that there's at least a little fire behind the smoke.
186[13:33] <zoekayno`> arguably trumps entire fortune is from criminal activities
187[13:33] <jellyb> ...
188[13:33] <zoekayno`> a grotesque money launderer
189[13:33] <jellyb> liberals losing touch with reality
190[13:33] <UKDivided> jellyb: tbh I think if he is clean...putting his tax returns up would be a fantastic F you before he stands for his second term... 12D hungry hippos people
191[13:33] <jellyb> how did he 'cooperate with organized crime'
192[13:34] <zoekayno`> ask mueller
193[13:34] <TheRomanticPianist> jellyb: according to then, he did but not Hillary
194[13:34] <zoekayno`> we're asking mueller and mueller is finding out
195[13:34] <TheRomanticPianist> Sounds wonderful
196[13:34] <zoekayno`> if mueller finds anything we will have answers
197[13:34] <zoekayno`> until then its uninformed speculation other than some baseline facts youll ignore
198[13:34] <zoekayno`> you might want to check mueller's hires and what they are good at
199[13:34] <zoekayno`> answers there
200[13:35] <strtok> UKDivided: i'm pretty sure if there was nothing to hide on his returns that he would already have done it
201[13:35] <zoekayno`> if trump had left russia alone maybe mueller and the NY AG wouldnt be crawling up his finances ass
202[13:35] <jellyb> so maybe he didnt pay the maximum amount of tax and found some ways to reduce it
203[13:35] <zoekayno`> but they woulda got there eventually - all roads lead to crime in the trump empire
204[13:36] <UKDivided> strtok: who knows...
205[13:36] <UKDivided> maybe not
206[13:36] <jellyb> theres no crime
207[13:36] <zoekayno`> we'll see 
208[13:36] <jellyb> why do liberals want trump out so bad
209[13:36] <zoekayno`> mueller will find out
210[13:36] <UKDivided> just because you are hiding doesn't mean you have something to hide
211[13:36] <zoekayno`> let's see what he finds
212[13:36] <jellyb> hes doing good for the country
213[13:36] <TheRomanticPianist> UKDivided: true.
214[13:36] <zoekayno`> NY AG too
215[13:36] <TheRomanticPianist> UKDivided++
216[13:36] <@corvusmalus> jellyb, beginning with the concrete building mafia in new york, then he met with russian mafia bosses, he had knowlingly the financial felon son of a little don as an adviser and partner, his tower was a main base for many mafiosos, ...
217[13:36] <zoekayno`> theyll tell us about crimes or no crimes
218[13:36] <zoekayno`> til then its just some trump supporter on irc
219[13:37] <zoekayno`> saying theres no crime
220[13:37] <zoekayno`> i trust mueller. he says no crime, ok, no crime
221[13:37] <zoekayno`> everyone feels that way
222[13:37] <zoekayno`> we trust him
223[13:37] <jellyb> thats why he'll run the investigation four years
224[13:37] <zoekayno`> could be
225[13:37] <zoekayno`> thats a risk for sure
226[13:37] <zoekayno`> so be it
227[13:37] <TheRomanticPianist> or 8 eight years
228[13:37] <TheRomanticPianist> Maybe it will never end
229[13:38] <zoekayno`> the heat death of the universe might arrive before he gets to the very last crime
230[13:38] <jellyb> yeah maybe right into trump's second term
231[13:38] <jellyb> or even ivanka's two terms
23203[13:38] * Joins: mapleb0 (mapleb0@Snoonet-hm5.47b.ahc25o.IP)
233[13:38] <TheRomanticPianist> Hehe
234[13:38] <TheRomanticPianist> Ivanka, lol, running as president vs chelsea
235[13:38] <TheRomanticPianist> 2020 will be funny
236[13:38] <zoekayno`> america loves brands
237[13:39] <TheRomanticPianist> jellyb: young people voting for Republican
238[13:39] <TheRomanticPianist> Wouldbe nice
239[13:39] <jellyb> for sure
240[13:39] <jellyb> get a proper supermajority this time
241[13:39] <UKDivided> TheRomanticPianist: I thought it was going to be michelle 
242[13:39] <jellyb> pass bills without any help from dems
243[13:39] <TheRomanticPianist> UKDivided, I haven't heard much about her 
244[13:39] <zoekayno`> bills indeed
245[13:40] <zoekayno`> take away all healthcare, burn the hospitals
246[13:40] <zoekayno`> kill gay people!
247[13:40] <zoekayno`> enslave women
248[13:40] <strtok> zoekayno`: it sounds like it's clear there were crimes. the question is really who was involved
249[13:40] <zoekayno`> whatever your dreams are, the supermajority provides
250[13:40] <jellyb> ivanka would beat liz warren, michelle obama or even chelsea clinton in a debate
251[13:40] <jellyb> she has the best shot at being first female president
252[13:40] <zoekayno`> the dark heart of the republican voter frightens me
253[13:40] <zoekayno`> what comes after taking away health care
254[13:40] <jellyb> nobody wants to work against the gays
255[13:41] <zoekayno`> hows that not despicable
256[13:41] <TheRomanticPianist> zoekayno`: you crying?
257[13:41] <TheRomanticPianist> Go cry
258[13:41] <jellyb> its not about 'taking away healthcare'
259[13:41] <@corvusmalus> well, talking political family brands: http://www.politico.com/story/2017/07/23/rand-paul-trump-foreign-workers-240858
260[13:41] <+gonzobot> Title: Rand Paul: Buying American isn't necessarily the right choice - POLITICO
261[13:41] <jellyb> or enslaving women
262[13:41] <zoekayno`> how do you spin it that feels good
263[13:41] <jellyb> ivanka is a woman
264[13:41] <zoekayno`> taking back male authority
265[13:41] <Manos> I don't know that I've ever heard Ivanka speak.
266[13:41] <zoekayno`> i forget the healthcare spin
267[13:41] <jellyb> well you should
268[13:42] <zoekayno`> its mostly trillionaires keeping their money how do poor people sell it to themselves
269[13:42] <jellyb> all his kids are very intelligent
270[13:42] <zoekayno`> explain to my why anyone wants that
271[13:42] <TheRomanticPianist> Manos: you don't look for her
272[13:42] <zoekayno`> how do poor people wake up in the morning and be programmed to say they dont need access to the doctor
27303[13:42] * Joins: KindOne (KindOne@user/KindOne)
274[13:42] <strtok> zoekayno`: it's convincing people that have healthare into thinking that their insurer has their back and that they have access to quality care
275[13:42] <strtok> which is a myth
276[13:42] <zoekayno`> and then give their healthcare back to rich people
277[13:42] <@corvusmalus> jellyb, lol. sure don jr is very smart in dealing the russia meeting...
278[13:42] <zoekayno`> its sorta funny to me as a dark comedy
279[13:43] <strtok> you can think you have the best health insurer in the world and still get screwed over
280[13:43] <jellyb> he released the emails
281[13:43] <jellyb> showing hes done nothing wrong
282[13:43] <zoekayno`> like from a 50,000 mile view all these little poor mice watching a screen that tells them stuff and then giving everything to a rich mouse
283[13:43] <zoekayno`> who has this huge pile of all their earnings, from all their lives, piled up
284[13:43] <jellyb> on the other hand its been several months since the agencies claimed russian interference and collusion
285[13:43] <zoekayno`> its funny but sad
286[13:43] <jellyb> youd think they of released evidence by now
287[13:43] <jellyb> theyve got nothing
288[13:44] <@corvusmalus> jellyb, lol, the show he did everything wrong. he wanted to collude with russia, and he didn't inform the authorities about alleged russian influence on the us, and on russia spying on american officials.
289[13:44] <Manos> Yes but what did he do WRONG? ;P
290[13:44] <jellyb> he didnt get anything from the meeting and she didnt represent russia
291[13:45] <zoekayno`> sure jellyb. classic russian spycraft
292[13:45] <jellyb> the leaks were from seth rich
293[13:45] <jellyb> a dnc staffer
294[13:45] <zoekayno`> no they werent
295[13:45] <Manos> Part 1: You're taking a known liar's word for it. Part B: Disproved by the emails
296[13:45] <zoekayno`> thats a mean and cruel lie too
297[13:45] <zoekayno`> anyone who forwards the seth rich lie should be shunned
298[13:45] <@corvusmalus> jellyb, but he went there to talk about it, with other people of which at least some very likely are russian agents. and he then said they talked about adoptions, which is about sanctions...
299[13:45] <zoekayno`> how do you know this about seth rich jellyb
300[13:45] <zoekayno`> tell us your sources
301[13:46] <zoekayno`> who programmed you to believe this evil lie?
302[13:46] <TheRomanticPianist> Evil lie? Lmao.
303[13:46] <TheRomanticPianist> Who told you it was a lie.
304[13:46] <zoekayno`> yes the seth rich lie is evil
305[13:46] <zoekayno`> his parents
306[13:46] <jellyb> nothing wrong if the us got along with russia
307[13:46] <zoekayno`> and your source?
308[13:46] <TheRomanticPianist> His death.
309[13:46] <TheRomanticPianist> Robbery without anything being taken.
310[13:47] <zoekayno`> go on
311[13:47] <TheRomanticPianist> Sounds weird to me.
312[13:48] <zoekayno`> its a lie circulated by russia
313[13:48] <zoekayno`> youve chosen to subscribe to it
314[13:48] <zoekayno`> along with countless other lies
315[13:48] <TheRomanticPianist> The same lie about Trump colluding with Russians by media.
316[13:48] <zoekayno`> that one is particularly nasty tho
317[13:48] <TheRomanticPianist> I can play this game too.
318[13:48] <zoekayno`> you ought really be ashamed of yourself for tossing it around too
319[13:48] <zoekayno`> its not a game
320[13:48] <TheRomanticPianist> I'm serious.
321[13:48] <zoekayno`> julian assange is compromised
322[13:48] <zoekayno`> me too
323[13:48] <TheRomanticPianist> Good.
324[13:49] <zoekayno`> julian works for putin
325[13:49] <zoekayno`> by choice or force, whichever
326[13:49] <@corvusmalus> jellyb, sure there is nothing wrong about getting along with russia. but, there is pretty much wrong with attempting to conspire with russian agents against the government and against another presidential candidate. and sure she didn't deliver at that meeting and the other agents there also didn't. such a meeting is not meant to deliver - it is to probe the involved persons. and that he came, 
327[13:49] <@corvusmalus> is a success.
328[13:49] <zoekayno`> its one of their lies
329[13:49] <zoekayno`> why choose that side
330[13:49] <zoekayno`> the russia trump crime syndicate
331[13:49] <zoekayno`> so grosss too
332[13:50] <TheRomanticPianist> Hahaha
333[13:50] <zoekayno`> i mean its like a lot of people simply wont tell the difference between obvious good and obvious evil
334[13:50] <TheRomanticPianist> What;'s your proof of that.
335[13:50] <zoekayno`> mostly because hillary is so dirty she muddies the water
336[13:50] <zoekayno`> proof of what
337[13:50] <TheRomanticPianist> "Julian works for Putin".
338[13:51] <jellyb> so germany beat brazil 7-1 in the world cup
339[13:51] <zoekayno`> are there any graphic novels of the e. e. doc smith stuff
340[13:51] <zoekayno`> like the skylark novels
341[13:51] <TheRomanticPianist> jellyb, hard beat.
342[13:51] <TheRomanticPianist> WW3 won by Germans.
343[13:51] <@corvusmalus> zoekayno`, TheRomanticPianist, i don't think julian is, i think he is just a useful fool.
344[13:51] <jellyb> and neymar was coincidentally injured just one match before in a deliberate attack
345[13:51] <TheRomanticPianist> corvusmalus: he is the one that created Wikileaks.
346[13:51] <jellyb> nobody investigated zuniga or the germans who had the most to gain
347[13:52] <TheRomanticPianist> He can't be a useful fool for something he does. 
348[13:52] <zoekayno`> corv, i think it was when julian threatened putin and putin said we could make wikileaks go away forever
349[13:52] <@corvusmalus> TheRomanticPianist, and? can't he be russia's useful idiot then?
350[13:52] <zoekayno`> then gave him a tv show
351[13:52] <TheRomanticPianist> No.
352[13:52] <zoekayno`> force or choice, unclear
353[13:52] <TheRomanticPianist> Maybe I am a useful idiot too.
354[13:52] <TheRomanticPianist> Russian bot.
355[13:52] <TheRomanticPianist> Praise Putin.
356[13:52] <TheRomanticPianist> :D
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358[13:54] <@corvusmalus> zoekayno`, well, there are many useful idiots on rt... 
359[13:55] <Caelum> no seriously, guy gets ambushed in front of his home by two people and shot without anything being taken from him, and anyone who thinks that must be at least somewhat suspicious is a horrible right-wing conspiracy theorist
360[13:55] <zoekayno`> its a weaponised theory
361[13:55] <@corvusmalus> Caelum, it is somewhat suspicious, so it was investigated and nothing was found.
362[13:56] <Caelum> "nothing was found" proves what
363[13:56] <zoekayno`> the bottom line is, american IC says wikileaks and julian are a putin asset
364[13:56] <Caelum> did they find the shooters? no.
365[13:56] <zoekayno`> you know more?
366[13:56] <zoekayno`> enough to dispute them?
367[13:56] <zoekayno`> this is war you know
368[13:56] <Caelum> dispute WHAT
369[13:56] <zoekayno`> you wanna go with the enemy's narrative?
370[13:56] <zoekayno`> cause its the republican narrative?
371[13:56] <zoekayno`> russian republicans jfc
372[13:56] <@corvusmalus> Caelum, no, they didn't find the shooters. but you make a very unlikely claim - so the burden of proof is on you.
373[13:57] <Caelum> I claimed nothing except "this is really fucking suspicious"
374[13:57] <Caelum> and it obviously is
375[13:57] <zoekayno`> youd be shocked how often crimes occur maybe
376[13:57] <zoekayno`> what iuf
377[13:57] <zoekayno`> what if  russia killed seth rich
378[13:58] <zoekayno`> and pinned it on hillary
379[13:58] <zoekayno`> what if that comes out are you ready to accept it
380[13:58] <Caelum> that is certainly a possibility
381[13:58] <@corvusmalus> zoekayno`, well, i follow them for years, and i think it is somehow consistent, also how their position moved over the time. i don't think any conspiracy with russia is necessary for it, the position of assange is weird, but not really rare.
382[13:58] <jerkstate> can you source that claim zoekayno` ?
383[13:58] <jerkstate> https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/01/world/europe/wikileaks-julian-assange-russia.html
384[13:58] <+gonzobot> Title: How Russia Often Benefits When Julian Assange Reveals the West’s Secrets - The New York Times
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386[13:59] <jerkstate> the claim that american IC says assange is a russian plant
387[14:01] <zoekayno`> what claim
388[14:02] <zoekayno`> oh let me check. i can find one where they say it of wikileaks easily probably
389[14:02] <jerkstate> please find it
390[14:03] <zoekayno`> http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/04/13/cias-pompeo-rips-wikileaks-as-hostile-intelligence-service-abetted-by-russia.html
391[14:03] <+gonzobot> Title: CIA's Pompeo rips WikiLeaks as 'hostile intelligence service' abetted by Russia | Fox News
392[14:03] <zoekayno`> CIA Director Mike Pompeo, in his first speech since taking over the agency, lambasted WikiLeaks and its founder Julian Assange -- calling the group a "non-state hostile intelligence service" that is often abetted by "state actors like Russia.
393[14:03] <jellyb> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XEziSYRqhU common sense 25 years ago posted by dataman
394[14:03] <+gonzobot> (jellyb) Ross Perot vs. Al Gore NAFTA Debate FULL! 1993 - length 1h 14m 26s - 697 likes, 16 dislikes (97.8%) - 111,287 views - yeoldbasser on 2012.12.20
395[14:03] <jerkstate> that claims that wikipedia is aided by russia, not controlled by russia
396[14:03] <jellyb> uh
397[14:03] <jellyb> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rkgx1C_S6ls
398[14:03] <+gonzobot> (jellyb) Giant Sucking Sound - Ross Perot 1992 Presidential Debate.flv - length 2m 35s - 2,052 likes, 40 dislikes (98.1%) - 416,949 views - TheFedBites on 2009.12.06
399[14:04] <jellyb> ross perot also a billionaire business man who knew how things worked in reality
400[14:04] <jellyb> 25 years ago he saw it coming
401[14:04] <@corvusmalus> jerkstate, i saw so many "anti-globalists" and "anti-unipolarists" and anti-americans/westerners turn pro russians in the last few years, or at least adopting large parts of russian narratives. for wikileaks, e.g. also some completely off narratives about mh17 and so on in editorial stuff. and then about assange and wikileaks - they got close to russia before ukraine and before the russian 
402[14:04] <zoekayno`> https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/ICA_2017_01.pdf
403[14:04] <@corvusmalus> foreign narrative machines like rt, changed the tone and the narrative - until 2013/14 they were not about the east at all - russia just wasn't a topic there. but mostly the us. and they praised anythink critical of the west, from investigative journalists to all kinds of protests. the first time i remember they reported larger about a protest in a critical tone, is ukraine, and it is also 
404[14:04] <@corvusmalus> the first time they reported about things directly related to russia or the near-abroad.
405[14:04] <jerkstate> no wikileaks have been sourced to russia even now
406[14:04] <Manos> That kind of accusation is sort of integral to wikileaks purpose. It's true, but it's also part of its function, to disseminate leaks, many of which will probably arrive via jilted or conniving third parties/governments. 
407[14:05] <zoekayno`> just reading this, not saying it supports my claim
408[14:05] <jerkstate> corvusmalus: just because things like no war in syria, stop funding isis etc. are also “what russia wants” doesn’t make them wrong
409[14:06] <zoekayno`> gosh the whole New Normal stuff
410[14:06] <Manos> The "releasing leaks piecemeal to do the most damage" partisanship is the most telling thing about Assange. I get why he does it, but it sort of betrays his neutral standing.
411[14:06] <zoekayno`> so russia does this to everyone forever?
412[14:06] <@corvusmalus> jerkstate, spreading off the wall narratives about mh17, telling russia has enough freedom of the media and they don't need something like wikileaks and so on, is not. and i never said, everything he said is wrong.
413[14:07] <zoekayno`> how do we fight back, sanction them mercilessly?
414[14:07] <zoekayno`> but europe needsw the energy exports? im not really up to speed on the dynamics of regime changing russia 
415[14:07] <jerkstate> corvusmalus: if assange/wikileaks spread narratives about mh17 i must have missedit
416[14:08] <zoekayno`> it seems like a world war, where america is sort of losing right now
417[14:08] <zoekayno`> we're actively struggling for control of the executive
418[14:08] <jerkstate> ok, well it did happen and i did miss it
419[14:09] <UKDivided> corvusmalus: how do you distinguish between true believers and those who are siding with the enemy of their enemy?
420[14:09] <@corvusmalus> jerkstate: e.g. https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/492033939142619136?lang=en - they also had an own editorial about it on the wikileaks blog. sorry, it all a few year ago, and i would have to look up my archives to find it all. but i guess you get an idea.
421[14:09] <+gonzobot> (corvusmalus) ✓@wikileaks (WikiLeaks): A new angle on MH17: Rebels fired at Ukraine fighter jet which was using MH17 as decoy http://t.co/rSoRfjEeXL and http://t.co/ZZv1oPYlL8 (3 years and 22 hours ago)
422[14:10] <@corvusmalus> UKDivided, i said, i think he is an useful idiot. 
423[14:13] <TheRomanticPianist> corvusmalus, explain what you mean with useful idiot, because I might not have understood you completely.
424[14:13] <@corvusmalus> jerkstate, beside those things, i also just hate his idea of spreading all kind of private information. and i don't just mean private emails with that, but e.g. the idea to have wikileaks dox __all__ verified twitter users and publish there complete private data. wtf. is that.
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426[14:13] <@corvusmalus> TheRomanticPianist:
427[14:14] <@corvusmalus> .w useful idiot
428[14:14] <+gonzobot> (corvusmalus) In political jargon, a useful idiot (also useful fool) is a person perceived as a propagandist for a cause the goals of which they are not fully aware of, and who is used cynically by the leaders of... :: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot
429[14:14] <jerkstate> corvusmalus: it’s your right to interpret news sources whatever way you want to - but to say wikileaks is in the pocket of some nation state is shortsighted. they run with the contra-mainstream narrative, and that’s it
430[14:14] <jerkstate> they publish information that backs up their narrative, which is reliably the opposite of what globalist media is saying, and that’s been true since their inception
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434[14:22] <fedboner69`> *extremely alex jones voice* glooooobalist media
435[14:24] <@corvusmalus> jerkstate, well, like many others, they seem to be part of a whole network of "anti-globalists" which developed over half a decade, and which is spreading the russian narrative and in other parts even clearly russian fake news. and maybe wikileaks is not a direct part of these networks, including e.g. zerohedge, beforeitsnews, globalresearch, but well, they e.g. retweet max keiser. but assange 
436[14:24] <@corvusmalus> himself with his show on rt and so on, and many things he said in interviews is clearly helping russia.  -- and i also don't think that's the old idea of the "intelligence service of the people" and "information wants to be free" that wikileaks is following - it is a clear political agenda. it is much less: "the public has a right to know" - which i in general supported, but political activism, 
437[14:24] <@corvusmalus> using leaks, many of them of private nature.
438[14:26] <fedboner69`> assange generally has some strange esoteric views, hard to pin down his ideology
439[14:28] <fedboner69`> i think it's silly to assume whistleblowing doesn't serve a political agenda, whether that person is aware of it or not
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441[14:37] <zoekayno`> assange has always had a few wild kangaroos in the upper paddock. lately they seem to have been breeding
442[14:37] <zoekayno`> a man driven to madness isnt so far off
443[14:38] <zoekayno`> he's in constant pain
444[14:38] <fedboner69`> well that is the strangest metaphor i've ever heard
445[14:38] <@corvusmalus> fedboner69`, sure. i just meant it is not the older "information wants to be free" thing. e.g. cryptome is doing that, or anonymous did that on some of the old pages. or for russia, boltai is doing that. they just publish what they get, immediately and they don't even scrutinize it. 
446[14:40] <@corvusmalus> zoekayno`, it is a bit like with oliver stone... 
447[14:41] <fedboner69`> yeah that is almost the case, especially the considering the size of these info dumps. but in terms of scrutiny it isn't too far off what a lot of mainstream journalists have been doing recently anyway, if you look at their reporting of the trump-russia stuff.
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450[14:43] <@corvusmalus> fedboner69`, oh, they even took many months to publish the "russia dossier".
451[14:43] <@corvusmalus> and i don't remember the media publishing vast amounts of private emails, which are just that - private and irrelavant for the public emails.
452[14:44] <@corvusmalus> ^ btw. not only not the media, also no other of the "hacking" / "whistleblowing" sites.
453[14:44] <fedboner69`> i'm not so much talking about publishing secret documents, more in terms of speculation and gossip
454[14:45] <fedboner69`> if you like at the twitter feeds of people like sarah kendzior or joy ann reid, they're rife with misinformation and innuendo 
455[14:46] <HydroponicFunBags> I think other news agencies would have published what Wikileaks did if they received them. NYT published tax returns that they received anonymously.
456[14:46] <@corvusmalus> fedboner69`, oh sure. that's their opinions and much less is bad journalism. but about the facts, most of the "mainstream media" is indeed pretty good.
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459[14:48] <fedboner69`> that's a very spurious claim imo. if you look at stuff like foreign policy under obama, most of the media were simply republishing state department statements on stuff like civilian casualties which almost always turned out to be false.
460[14:49] <fedboner69`> there wasn't anywhere near the level of scrutiny you're getting now
461[14:49] <@corvusmalus> HydroponicFunBags, nobody had published all the private emails of clinton/podesta. nobody had published many of the other leaks on wikileaks without redacting them, and removing the risks for named persons. they didn't publish the private data of gay people in countries in with this is a capital crime, and don't publish the private data of rape victims.
462[14:49] <@corvusmalus> HydroponicFunBags, and look how less, and how directed the snowden cache - which wikileaks does not have - got published by the media.
463[14:50] <HydroponicFunBags> ...Did anyone other than Wikileaks receive those things?
464[14:52] <@corvusmalus> you think the nyt had published this: "The organisation has now been accused of carelessly and recklessly publishing unredacted data from Saudi Arabia in a separate mass info dump, including the personal details of thousands of Saudi people. -- Among the thousands of documents, the data includes personal information identifying at least one man with a gay sex conviction – as well as a number 
465[14:52] <@corvusmalus> of rape victims and people living with HIV. -- It also makes public the identity of domestic workers who had been tortured or sexually abused by their employers – even listing people’s passport numbers, alongside their full names. -- One of the cables includes private details of a Saudi man detained for ‘sexual deviation’ – the charge for homosexuality – raising fears of reprisals 
466[14:52] <@corvusmalus> or ‘vigilante’ attacks." htf. is that private info relevant to the public? that's terrible.
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468[14:55] <@corvusmalus> also: "In an underappreciated part of the WikiLeaks saga, computer-savvy volunteers at the organization corrected Mr. Assange’s mistake and used an inventive computer program to scrub names and identities from the second leak of documents, the Iraq War Logs. It was an exemplary display of how to publish sensitive materials. Sadly, Mr. Assange reverted to form in subsequent leaks, including 
469[14:55] <@corvusmalus> the unredacted publication of 251,000 State Department cables and his recent release of the emails from the A.K.P., Turkey’s ruling party, which exposed the personal information of more than one million Turkish women." - https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/08/opinion/can-we-trust-julian-assange-and-wikileaks.html
470[14:55] <+gonzobot> Title: Can We Trust Julian Assange and WikiLeaks? - The New York Times
471[15:00] <TheRomanticPianist> You can trust his verified documents
472[15:00] <TheRomanticPianist> That's what's all about 
473[15:03] <@corvusmalus> most is not verified in a sound way. but beside that - no you can't. because you don't know what they don't publish. also this publishing all the private data is just screwed, i guess he has destroyed many lives and probably even killed many ordinary, decent people by that. 
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475[15:03] <TheRomanticPianist> Destroyed many lives
476[15:03] <TheRomanticPianist> Just like the US keeps destroying lives and people not knowing about?
477[15:03] <TheRomanticPianist> Serves them right
478[15:04] <@corvusmalus> TheRomanticPianist, this serves the house worker in saudi arabia, which was outed as a rape victim and is socially excluded for that, well?
479[15:04] <TheRomanticPianist> corvusmalus: their own problem
480[15:04] <TheRomanticPianist> Shouldn't live there if they knew what would come
481[15:05] <TheRomanticPianist> Consequences can't be avoided 
482[15:05] <@corvusmalus> TheRomanticPianist, i hope you're sarcastic now...
483[15:05] <fedboner69`> probably a fascist
484[15:05] <Manos> ...
485[15:07] <@corvusmalus> so what do you think about the new idea of doxxing __all__ verified twitter user and publishing their private data, including addresses and everything else possible to find?
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488[15:07] <@corvusmalus> does this btw. also include the address of snowden?
489[15:10] <TheRomanticPianist> Who is doxxing twitter users?
490[15:11] <@corvusmalus> "WikiLeaks tweeted Friday that it wanted to build a database of information about Twitter’s verified users, including personal relationships that might have influence on their lives. -- Then, after a number of users sounded the alarm on what they perceived to be a massive doxxing effort, WikiLeaks deleted the tweet, but not before blaming that perception on the “dishonest press.” -- In 
491[15:11] <@corvusmalus> a subsequent series of tweets on Friday, WikiLeaks Task Force — a verified Twitter account described in its bio as the “Official @WikiLeaks support account” — explained that it wanted to look at the “family/job/financial/housing relationships” of Twitter’s verified users, which includes a ton of journalists, politicians and activists." -- https://www.recode.net/2017/1/7/141955
492[15:11] <@corvusmalus> 22/wikileaks-twitter-database-verified-users-assange-trump-media
493[15:11] <+gonzobot> Title: WikiLeaks wants to create a database of verified Twitter users and who they interact with - Recode
494[15:12] <TheRomanticPianist> I see
495[15:12] <TheRomanticPianist> Wanting to create a databse, but how exactly? 
496[15:13] <@corvusmalus> i don't know how they wanted to do that - but that they think that's a good thing is already pretty telling.
497[15:13] <TheRomanticPianist> Wikileaks receives information from others
498[15:13] <TheRomanticPianist> Doesn't mean that they will publish it
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500[15:16] <TheRomanticPianist> I see... the thing Wikileaks want to do, is the same as Facebook does. Because in facebook you can see who your friends are, what your job is and relationships too
501[15:18] <TheRomanticPianist> "WikiLeaks mentioned an artificial intelligence software program that it would use to help compile the database and suggested it might be akin to the social graphs that Facebook and LinkedIn have created."
502[15:18] <@corvusmalus> that's what they later said. but that's worse enough to make public. i am okay doing that with very public figures, who have chosen to be public figures. but most verified users are not such figures. -- and facebook doesn't do they - it doesn't add the employer, friends, contacts to your public profile without asking you.
503[15:19] <TheRomanticPianist> You are the one saving it on your profile and everyone who is friend of you can see it.... own choice I think
504[15:19] <TheRomanticPianist> But yes, you're right
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507[15:23] <@corvusmalus> TheRomanticPianist, i never shared the idea of "all information wants to be free". for an extreme example - e.g. the gchq is blamed of having spied on private people doing camsex and has probably stored that information. if wikileaks got that data, i am clearly against publishing it. that's nothing the public needs to know. as the public doesn't need to know the names of people who helped 
508[15:23] <@corvusmalus> the us in afghanistan or or gay people in saudi arabia, or the adresses and party affiliation of turkish women. for manning and snowden - what they did is different - they indeed had information i think the public needs to know, and it was in general good to leak it.
509[15:24] <TheRomanticPianist> Yes
510[15:24] <TheRomanticPianist> I agree
511[15:29] <@corvusmalus> TheRomanticPianist, about the same about the dnc vs. the podesta/clinton mails. the first was clearly something the public should know, the second was (at least everything i read) private emails. they were interesting to read (and fucking boring at the same time) and they showed me nothing but that those people are rich, square, boring and into boring parties and cooking and eating, and very 
512[15:29] <@corvusmalus> polite and pc, and without much sense of humour. that's somehow an interesting view, but i don't think that should be published. and even less firing all the conspiracies that those boring, normal mails started.
513[15:29] <@corvusmalus> ^ conspiracy theories
514[15:35] <jerkstate> you mean like the conspiracy theories around collusion with mainstream media, or quid pro quo with big pharma?
515[15:35] <jerkstate> conspiracy just means people working together in secret
516[15:36] <jerkstate> non-public emails on this sort of topic are by definition conspiracy
517[15:37] <jerkstate> i mean, it’s an argument to say “that quid pro quo and media collusion is just the way things work at this level of politics”
518[15:37] <jerkstate> but it’s not an argument to say “that’s a conspiracy theory” and disregard it as such
519[15:38] <@corvusmalus> jerkstate, yeah, i correct it to conspiracy theories. and i meant things like pizza gate which are based completely on private, irrelevant mails - and i correct myself, sure individual emails e.g. of contacts with the media, which are not just of private nature, could be published.
520[15:39] <jerkstate> oh sure pizzagate is a conspiracy theory for sure because they don’t discuss what some are alleging directly in the emails
521[15:39] <jerkstate> the theory is that some of the strange-sounding stilted conversations are code words for whatever
522[15:40] <jerkstate> but there is plenty of wrongdoing that is plain to see in those email leaks
523[15:41] <@corvusmalus> jerkstate, i know, i looked pretty in-depth at pizza gate, because i "like" such phenomens, and also because i got into numerous discussions with proponents.
524[15:41] <fedboner69`> i've been to comet ping pong pizza and i have seen the mayhem myself
525[15:42] <@corvusmalus> fedboner69`, do you mean a child sex ring mayhem, or the one caused by pizza gate later?
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527[15:43] <fedboner69`> someone served me a chocolate and bacon pizza
528[15:43] <fedboner69`> it was mayhem
529[15:43] <@corvusmalus> ah :) that mayhem.
530[15:44] <fedboner69`> pineapple on pizza yay or nay
531[15:45] <@corvusmalus> jerkstate, and well, it went far above the code-words, as far as blaming the podesta brothers (or at least one of them) of personally having participated in the kidnapping of the british girl in spain a few years ago... they even beat louise mensch by far.
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533[15:46] <fedboner69`> louise mensch is actually supposed to be a sensible person though
534[15:47] <fedboner69`> not just random clowns online
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536[15:47] <jerkstate> i follow her on twitter haha shes as nutty as alex jones
537[15:48] <jerkstate> corvusmalus: the podesta brothers are scummy for a lot of political reasons and you have to admit they are VERY eccentric too
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539[15:48] <Manos> I don't usually hear Louise Mensch and sensible in the same sentence.
540[15:48] <jerkstate> eccentricity in that way, for example w.r.t their art collections and so on, definitely opens them up to this kind of judgement
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542[15:49] <fedboner69`> she was an mp in the uk ffs
543[15:49] <@corvusmalus> not by me. she is finding many interesting sources, but her conclusions are so screwed. it followed her a while for the first, but it got impossible soon because the second. churkin suddenly died. churkin was the government official dealing with trump in 1987 on his visit to russia (when he visited for the kgb hotel chain, on which he wanted to put trump labels on). louise mensch: "churkin 
544[15:49] <@corvusmalus> was murdered by russia, because he knew to much about trump and his relations to the kgb".
545[15:49] <Otiosorrhea> Why cant you guys be capale of setting your own agenda :C
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547[15:55] <@corvusmalus> jerkstate, sure they are eccentric art collectors? and their art is often from eastern europe, depicting or symbolizing victimization and suffering, often of the wars. this art hangs also in the most respected public museums. and sure it is showing nudity (which is pretty normal in europe) and is often graphic in the details. and let me add: what actually hangs in podesta's home is mostly 
548[15:55] <@corvusmalus> not what they blame him off - that's other pictures by the same artists.
549[15:56] <jerkstate> corvusmalus: i’m not trying to condemn the art - i’m just saying that the public will interpret these things as they will
550[15:56] <jerkstate> just like trump is interpreted in certain ways for his involvement in miss universe etc
551[15:56] <@corvusmalus> oh sure they do - in particular in the us.
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553[15:58] <@corvusmalus> i mean, e.g. you won't find a german bigger city without a few statues of nude and explicit male and female statues.
554[15:58] <jerkstate> the US was partially founded on the protestant, puritan ethos, so it’s still pervasive
555[16:00] <fedboner69`> the spirit cooking stuff is really the only weird thing they do
556[16:01] <jerkstate> well, that’s connected to their eclectic taste in art of course
557[16:03] <jerkstate> the spirit cooking stuff seems like a way to woo donors by getting them to think they’re part of some illuminati ritual
558[16:03] <jerkstate> imo
559[16:04] <Manos> It just sounds like hippy dippy shit to me
560[16:04] <jerkstate> look at all the celebs who are associated with it
561[16:04] <jerkstate> its the new scientology
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564[16:05] <Manos> They should unite.
565[16:05] <jerkstate> spiritual awakening starting at $32,000 a plate
566[16:05] <Manos> Along with kabbalah
567[16:06] <@corvusmalus> "“I’m outraged, because this is taken completely out of my context,” Abramovic told me by phone this afternoon. She was at Sean Kelly Gallery, her rep in New York. The dinner, she explained, was a reward for donors to a Kickstarter campaign she had run. Tony Podesta has collected her work since the 1990s, and he attended, but John couldn’t make it. In fact, she has never met John 
568[16:06] <@corvusmalus> Podesta. -- 
569[16:06] <@corvusmalus> “It was just a normal dinner,” Abramovic said, adding that about 10 people attended. “It was actually just a normal menu, which I call spirit cooking. There was no blood, no anything else. We just call things funny names, that’s all.” (The Kickstarter page advertised “traditional soups.”) -- Spirit Cooking, Abramovic explained, was a performance she staged at a number of museums 
570[16:06] <@corvusmalus> around the world in the ‘90s, painting graffiti with pigs’ blood. She also made a limited-edition book, which contains various recipes. That book is in the collection of the Museum of Modern Art in New York, among other places."
571[16:09] <fedboner69`> they definitely sacrificed at least one owl
572[16:11] <@corvusmalus> but so he seems to have donated at least $10,000 for the kickstarter: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/maihudson/marina-abramovic-institute-the-founders
573[16:11] <+gonzobot> Title: Marina Abramovic Institute: The Founders by Marina Abramovic Institute —Kickstarter
574[16:12] <fedboner69`> the alex jones doc on bohemian grove is the best alex jones thing imo
575[16:13] <@corvusmalus> that's at least very funny ;)
576[16:14] <fedboner69`> jesse ventura's show was the best though
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579[16:16] <Manos> Trump's busy on Twitter right now, crying more about Russia and how Reps don't have his back.
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581[16:17] <@corvusmalus> but with that we see the difference between mensch and those anti-podesta conspircy theory people. mensch is correct on the facts, only here conclusions are wrong. here they blame two people of having attended a pretty disgusting art performance, while it was only a normal donor's dinner, and both have not been there.
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583[16:19] <fedboner69`> mensch said trump is going to execute bannon
584[16:19] <UKDivided> "mensch said"
585[16:19] <UKDivided> "mensh"
586[16:20] <UKDivided> I rest my case
587[16:20] <fedboner69`> hardly right on the facts
588[16:21] <@corvusmalus> fedboner69`, well, i count such things to the conclusions. like the churkin theory.
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590[16:24] <fedboner69`> well what facts is she looking at that the conclusion is that?
591[16:24] <@corvusmalus> churkin was the government official managing the invation to the ussr by trump in 1987. churkin died early this year completely unexpected in his office at the un. - that's both correct. - but that churkin was murdered because he knew too much about trump and the kgb is surely not a valid conclusion.
592[16:25] <@corvusmalus> those things happened. a spiritual cooking art performance with john podesta or even hillary clinton in difference never happened.
593[16:25] <fedboner69`> and stuff like that isn't really any better than the alex jones stuff, it's harming political discourse just as much
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605[17:09] <zoekayno`> will there ever be a coherent response to transients in cities
606[17:10] <UKDivided> zoekayno`: smoothing
607[17:10] <UKDivided> add some capacitors
608[17:10] <zoekayno`> huh yeah
609[17:12] <zoekayno`> https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/6p3tyw/trump_goes_off_on_republicans_for_failing_to/
610[17:12] <+gonzobot> (zoekayno`) Trump goes off on Republicans for failing to 'protect' him over... : politics - 9 comments, 21 points - GonzoNation, 13m ago
611[17:12] <zoekayno`> does he not understand how things work
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614[17:15] <fedboner69`> the dumbest thing he's said recently is that the wall should be transparent 
615[17:17] <KimDotYou> invisible wall, just like video games
616[17:17] <zoekayno`> what if we tell him the wall is now built, you just cant see it
617[17:18] <zoekayno`> the president's new wall
618[17:18] <zoekayno`> such fine construction
619[17:18] <zoekayno`> the best craftsmanship
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62100[17:35] <04dataman> so is EU still in denial about migrant crisis
62200[17:36] <04dataman> https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/8663/germany-migrants-rape
623[17:36] <+gonzobot> Title: Germany's Migrant Rape Crisis Spirals out of Control
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628[17:55] <Assuredly> Is the russia sanction bill going to be pocket vetoed dataman ?
62900[17:56] <04dataman> might be a veto on it, im not sure
63000[18:00] <04dataman> Manos im preparing my next big imgur expose on the democrats liberal agenda
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633Session Close: Sun Jul 23 18:11:27 2017
634
635Session Start: Sun Jul 23 18:11:27 2017
636Session Ident: #politics
63711[18:12] * Attempting to rejoin channel #politics
63803[18:12] * Rejoined channel #politics
63903[18:13] * Topic is 'Welcome to #politics | Official home of r/politics on Snoonet | Rules: No personal attacks / insults against users. Do not incite, condone or wish violence. No hate speech | Sean Spicer Resigns Megathread https://redd.it/6oowgx'
64003[18:13] * Set by likeafox!sid236015@user/likeafox on Fri Jul 21 15:08:57 2017
64100[18:14] <04dataman> how is "hate speech" defined as its used in the title
64200[18:14] <04dataman> imo hate speech is a catch all monicker that really boils down to "any speech someone doesnt like"
643[18:17] <void> Probably fairly similar to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech
644[18:17] <+gonzobot> Title: Hate speech - Wikipedia
645[18:19] <arble> that is what it boils down to
646[18:20] <arble> where someone is "the legislature" or "the judiciary"
647[18:20] <arble> which is cool because those are the bodies empowered to decide such things
648[18:20] <arble> murder is just any killing someone doesn't like tbh
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651Session Close: Sun Jul 23 18:27:29 2017
652
653Session Start: Sun Jul 23 18:27:29 2017
654Session Ident: #politics
65511[18:36] * Attempting to rejoin channel #politics
65603[18:36] * Rejoined channel #politics
65703[18:36] * Topic is 'Welcome to #politics | Official home of r/politics on Snoonet | Rules: No personal attacks / insults against users. Do not incite, condone or wish violence. No hate speech | Sean Spicer Resigns Megathread https://redd.it/6oowgx'
65803[18:36] * Set by likeafox!sid236015@user/likeafox on Fri Jul 21 15:08:57 2017
65900[18:37] <04dataman> i see, so hate speech in this context means we are no longer allowed to criticize islam?
66000[18:37] <04dataman> am i interpreting this new rule correctly?
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665[18:55] <void> dataman: I think a lot of it comes down to if you're making generalisations about all islamic people or not.
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66700[18:55] <04dataman> thanks but im asking the channel mods
66800[18:56] <04dataman> since this is a rule i think we need clarification from those enforcing it
669[18:56] <Don`Quixote> Hay Dataman, told them you would me back, you always come back.
670[18:56] <Duck> can we not
67100[18:56] <04dataman> yea the ban was unjust\
67200[18:57] <04dataman> partly why i seek clarification of rules
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674[19:00] <Otiosorrhea> You should be able to criticse Islam
675[19:00] <Otiosorrhea> As long as you bother to then justify yourself and then debate with people who oppose you.
676[19:00] <Don`Quixote> my bossman tried to talk politics with me today, but I gave up once I realized he believes the future world is fucked so go for the gusto type of thing, and he has kids too. and he is one of those that no matter how much Trump screws up he is accepting any excuse as if Trump could do little wrong....
67703[19:00] * nilcairiel is now known as Snoo40113
678[19:01] <Duck> Pretty much Otiosorrhea, I don't speak for every mod here but I think that discussion where the discussing party is prepared to back up with facts
67900[19:01] <04dataman> i know i can criticize islam
680[19:01] <Duck> ... should be okay
68100[19:01] <04dataman> i just dont know what channel mods will do
682[19:01] <Don`Quixote> at that point I said hey man, I got work to do.
683[19:02] <void> Otiosorrhea: Yeah!
68400[19:02] <04dataman> i love sharing facts about islam
68500[19:02] <04dataman> absolutely love it
686[19:02] <Otiosorrhea> Good to hear you're a grown man.
687[19:02] <zoekayno`> why
68800[19:02] <04dataman> well im not sure I can go there right now
689[19:03] <Otiosorrhea> FACT: The highest form of jihad is to speak truth in the face of an unjust ruler.
69000[19:03] <04dataman> theres a new "hate speech" rule and I know mods are out to get me
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692[19:03] <Don`Quixote> I love sharing my big shalammy with the women too, but if I done that I would get kicked too.
693[19:03] <Otiosorrhea> dataman You remind me of a child abuser who complains about people who dislike his child abuse and crying about it beign unfair.
694[19:03] <Otiosorrhea> amiright duck?
695[19:03] <void> Don`Quixote: hahah
69600[19:04] <04dataman> likeafox
69703[19:04] * srvdown is now known as Snoo49549
69800[19:04] <04dataman> im being personally attacked
699[19:04] <Don`Quixote> Dataman they dont want to get rid of you, just slap you on the wrist, your kind of part of the group here and they accept that. or so it seems
700[19:04] <Otiosorrhea> .yt criminal abuse
701[19:04] <+gonzobot> (Otiosorrhea) Cloud Atlas - I will not be subjected to criminal abuse - length 11s - 85 likes, 0 dislikes (100.0%) - 17,516 views - FunkeyEpyon on 2013.01.06 - http://youtu.be/zzOZLXTfV6g
702[19:04] <Duck> e.e
70300[19:04] <04dataman> Don`Quixote thats a nice thing to say but totally wrong
704[19:05] <Don`Quixote> if you say so
705[19:05] <Snoo49549> haha dataman
706[19:05] <Duck> dataman: remember what i told you the other day? 
707[19:05] <Otiosorrhea> Dataman is a paranoid nutbar.
708[19:05] <Duck> if we wanted you gone you wouldn't be here
70900[19:05] <04dataman> this? 
71000[19:05] <04dataman>     [18:58] <!Duck> You don't run the show here
711[19:05] <Otiosorrhea> The fact that we ARE out to get him is co-incidence.
712[19:05] <Duck> no, and you still don't
713[19:05] <Duck> actually
714[19:05] <Duck> !op
71503[19:05] * NSA sets mode: +o Duck
716[19:05] <@Duck> I'm going to do this now
717[19:05] <@Duck> because I swear to fucking god if we bring this bullshit up again you WILL be gone
718[19:06] <Otiosorrhea> duck YOU OPPRESSIVE SHITLORD check your priviledge111
719[19:06] <@Duck> !kb Otiosorrhea 
72003[19:06] * Otiosorrhea was kicked by NSA (Requested (Duck))
72103[19:06] * NSA sets mode: +b *!*@user/Otiosorrhea
722[19:06] <Don`Quixote> Oops
723[19:06] <@Duck> i checked my privilege, it says operator
72403[19:06] * Joins: Wednesday (nine@user/nine)
725[19:06] <@Duck> !unban Otiosorrhea
72603[19:06] * NSA sets mode: -b *!*@user/Otiosorrhea
72700[19:07] <04dataman> call me crazy, but this is the exact form of behavior im talking about
72803[19:07] * Joins: Otiosorrhea (Otiosorrhea@user/Otiosorrhea)
729[19:07] <Don`Quixote> there are days and there are not days, some days are just not worth it, i wouldnt push it right now.
73006[19:07] * Otiosorrhea looks at the button and doesn't press it.
73100[19:07] <04dataman> I wish to complain to a network moderator right now but I am banned from #help
73206[19:07] * Otiosorrhea looks at the seductive... seductive button.
733[19:07] <@Duck> dataman: I am a network moderator
734[19:08] <Otiosorrhea> If you want, try bloodygonzo
735[19:08] <Wednesday> i don't think he trusts you duck lol
736[19:08] <Otiosorrhea> He's the Fox News for Snoonet admins.
737[19:08] <Otiosorrhea> of*
738[19:08] <Otiosorrhea> He's Fair and Balanced.
739[19:08] <Don`Quixote> well, i am going to go cruse the news and see if there is anything interesting to share with the room.
74000[19:08] <04dataman> ok I am pm'ing him
741[19:09] <@Duck> "not a network issue"
74200[19:09] <04dataman> worse.
743[19:09] <@Duck> "this is a channel issue"
744[19:09] <Don`Quixote> calm down untill your less argumentative and emotional about things, then adress things.
74500[19:10] <04dataman> why do you care if I speak to a network mod about a problem im having on snoonet
746[19:10] <@Duck> I don't care lol
747[19:10] <Don`Quixote> who me?
74800[19:10] <04dataman> ok
74900[19:10] <04dataman> no Don`Quixote
750[19:10] <@Duck> I'm just telling you what will ultimately be said
751[19:10] <Otiosorrhea> Don`Quixote: Tilting against windmills, eh?
75200[19:11] <04dataman> hey duck, i dont know what you are getting at but please dont harrass me
753[19:11] <@Duck> I'm not harassing you :) 
754[19:11] <Don`Quixote> Otiosorrhea:  their dragons, DRAGONS not windmills, geese people must be smoking some wild shit to be seeing things, I want some of that!
755[19:11] <@Duck> And if you suspect I am, definitely tell me, I'll stop.
75600[19:11] <04dataman> i just asked you to
757[19:11] <Otiosorrhea> <Duck>: this is duck, pming you, dataman. You smell! Don't share this log or I ban you.
758[19:12] <@Duck> Otiosorrhea: I didn't say that. 
75903[19:12] * Retrieving #politics modes...
760[19:12] <Otiosorrhea> <Duck>: this is also duck. IF you say in the chat I said this I'll deny it. Because Otiosorrhea also smells. 
761[19:12] <Otiosorrhea> Sorry, Im' finding this very funny.
76206[19:13] * dataman tightens his helmet
763[19:13] <Otiosorrhea> http://www.german-helmets.com/2011%20UPDATES/APPRAISAL-IMAGE.jpg dataman 
764[19:13] <@Duck> !aop del duck
765[19:13] <@Duck> !flags duck -* 
76603[19:13] * NSA sets mode: -o Duck
76700[19:13] <04dataman> nah thats not my helmet for sure
76803[19:13] * Parts: Duck (Duck@snoonet/manager/Duck)
76900[19:14] <04dataman> void are you here
770[19:14] <void> What?
771[19:14] <Otiosorrhea> SS too c.ucky for you?
77200[19:14] <04dataman> whats the deal 
773[19:14] <Don`Quixote> Oh come on guys, he is still kind of feeling raw from getting booted, please dont aggravate him into screwing up. is he does that let him do it on his own, dont lure him into it.
77400[19:14] <04dataman> you referring to me?
775[19:15] <Otiosorrhea> .yt but it's funny
776[19:15] <+gonzobot> (Otiosorrhea) shortest video ever...but it's funny :) - length 5s - 1,502 likes, 498 dislikes (75.1%) - 426,792 views - juliesreborns1 on 2012.03.24 - http://youtu.be/bCGmUCDj4Nc
777[19:15] <void> dataman: What deal?
77800[19:15] <04dataman> they can bait all the want, their traps are pathetic
77900[19:15] <04dataman> your network mod pal duck up there, have you been reading this channel
780[19:16] <Don`Quixote> Duck? everyone shoots ducks around here. poot guy.
781[19:16] <Don`Quixote> poor
78200[19:16] <04dataman> everyone shoots dataman is more like it
78300[19:16] <04dataman> im in their echo chamber, its expected
784[19:17] <Don`Quixote> well you do have a stuborn toung.
785[19:17] <Don`Quixote> (shrugs)
78600[19:17] <04dataman> i dont let people lie or push falsehoods
78700[19:17] <04dataman> they get mad when their lies are exposed with facts
788[19:17] <Don`Quixote> but who am I to jusdge anyone, I am kind of loopy my self.
78900[19:17] <04dataman> i like you Don`Quixote
790[19:18] <Don`Quixote> thinks i guess.
79100[19:18] <04dataman> [19:17] <Duck> I'll say this and I'll say it once, I never meant you any harm, sorry if I came off aggressive in any way, I probably let personal emotions influence me in some way today
79200[19:18] <04dataman> [19:18] <Duck> I was only meant to be a temporary addition to the team in that room and to be quite honest the atmosphere is not something that I'm used to, so I'll take my leave.
793[19:19] <Otiosorrhea> WHAT
794[19:20] <Otiosorrhea> dataman: You really need Islam bro.
795[19:20] <Otiosorrhea> Try some baklava too.
796[19:20] <Otiosorrhea> Much better than biascuits and gravy.
797[19:20] <Manos> <dataman> i dont let people lie or push falsehoods
798[19:20] <Manos> <dataman> they get mad when their lies are exposed with facts
79906[19:20] * Manos snorts.
800[19:21] <Don`Quixote> https://www.yahoo.com/news/mayor-leaving-politics-fight-climate-130000247.html
801[19:21] <+gonzobot> Title: This mayor is leaving politics to fight climate change full-time
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80300[19:23] <04dataman> Here is the full PM discussion from Duck for anyone interested. Full Transparency
80400[19:23] <04dataman> https://imgtc.com/kKQ2O35
805[19:23] <+gonzobot> Title: ImgTC - Image Hosting Made Easy
806[19:25] <UKDivided> Don`Quixote: surely you mean giants not dragons?
80703[19:25] * Joins: deuxmonocles (twomonocles@Snoonet-df553r.dh0q.j1om.bsf18v.IP)
808[19:25] <cucumberferity> good
809[19:26] <cucumberferity> the most coastal democratic city mayors that resign the better
810[19:26] <Don`Quixote> UKDivided:  well, them too.
811[19:27] <Don`Quixote> http://www.politico.com/story/2017/07/23/liberal-scientists-trump-climate-change-240852
812[19:27] <+gonzobot> Title: Climate change: Meet the lab-coat liberals - POLITICO
813[19:28] <Otiosorrhea> cucumberferity: What do yoy think about climate change?
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81500[19:29] <04dataman> agreed cucumberferity
81600[19:29] <04dataman> look at any failing US city and check its mayor's party affiliation over time
817[19:30] <cucumberferity> it's real, a degree of it is anthropogenic, it's reasonable to take steps to reduce carbon through domestic and international law that does not severely hamper economic growth
818[19:30] <Don`Quixote> Oh goody, some scientists are wanting to run for political offices.
819[19:30] <Don`Quixote> bout time
82000[19:30] <04dataman> yea good
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82200[19:30] <04dataman> 90% lawyers in public office
82300[19:30] <04dataman> scum
824[19:30] <cucumberferity> my preferred choice would be a massive scale-up of nuclear power in the US, like france's nuclearization project
82506[19:31] * Wednesday shudders
826[19:31] <Don`Quixote> we dont need more bombs
827[19:31] <Wednesday> i think he means power production, Don`Quixote 
828[19:31] <Don`Quixote> Oh Ok
829[19:31] <Wednesday> cucumberferity, is that right?
83000[19:32] <04dataman> yea nuclear power production doesnt always have to handshake with refined weapons grade fissile material
83100[19:32] <04dataman> power production can be done at way lower levels of refinement
832[19:32] <UKDivided> cucumberferity: severe is the key term there...what is severe by your standards and who does that pain fall upon
833[19:32] <Don`Quixote> I just lost track of their subject
834[19:32] <Don`Quixote> was news surfing
835[19:32] <Wednesday> find a way to handle the waste, and increase safety regulation significantly, and I might be able to agree with nuclear power.
83600[19:33] <04dataman> there are much safer nuclear practices, new age of thorium reactors are almost 100% safe from meltdown
837[19:33] <cucumberferity> the single most important factor in quality of life is access to cheap, reliable, abundant electricity
838[19:33] <Wednesday> got any doc on that?
839[19:33] <cucumberferity> making this available in developing countries spurs economic growth and saves hundreds of thousands of lives
84000[19:34] <04dataman> Wednesday there are tons of articles and docs about thorium
841[19:34] <UKDivided> cucumberferity: I might argue the rule of law matters more personally, but sure it's up there
842[19:34] <cucumberferity> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301421511001042
843[19:34] <+gonzobot> Title: Does increasing energy or electricity consumption improve quality of life in industrial nations? - ScienceDirect
844[19:34] <Wednesday> ok dataman ... thought i'd offer to read yours first.
845[19:34] <Don`Quixote> OMG, its polititions like that, that scare me that their in office in the first place. http://www.latimes.com/politics/essential/la-pol-ca-essential-politics-updates-is-it-possible-that-there-was-a-1500423294-htmlstory.html
846[19:34] <+gonzobot> Title: 'Is it possible that there was a civilization on Mars thousands of years ago?' Rep. Dana Rohrabacher asks NASA scientist - LA Times
847[19:34] <Wednesday> i'll find it, though :)
84800[19:35] <04dataman> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uK367T7h6ZY
849[19:35] <+gonzobot> (dataman) LFTRs in 5 minutes - Thorium Reactors - length 5m 6s - 29,216 likes, 575 dislikes (98.1%) - 2,805,971 views - Ross Clements on 2012.03.10
850[19:35] <cucumberferity> well having rule of law and functioning democracy does make setting up and running electric infrastructure easier
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852[19:36] <cucumberferity> thorium is nice, it's achievable within a couple decades, in the mean time 4G nuclear power is ready to go now
853[19:36] <void> I'm a huge fan of nuclear energy. :)
854[19:36] <void> I grew up being able to walk around a reactor core with my dad.
85500[19:36] <04dataman> thorium is proven tech, just not built. Shovel ready tech waiting for a go-ahead
856[19:37] <UKDivided> cucumberferity: I'd say it was a prerequisite honestly
857[19:38] <cucumberferity> the nuclear waste problem is incredibly easy to solve, the storage space is sitting there at yucca mountain, environmentalists in the 90s had it shuddered 
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859[19:39] <cucumberferity> even as electrical efficiency goes up, we invent more uses; for example, even though your smartphone sips power at a tiny fraction of a light bulb the servers that all the various apps on their connect to equal about one fridge running 24/7 per smartphone
860[19:40] <UKDivided> well electricity insists on being so damn useful
86103[19:40] * nilcairiel is now known as Snoo55469
862[19:41] <cucumberferity> AC will save millions of lives in Africa and SE Asia
863[19:41] <cucumberferity> and yet rich white environmentalists who have benefited from industrialization have the nerve to tell poor brown people they can't have AC because MUH CARBON
864[19:41] <UKDivided> well all that fan death is horrific cucumberferity
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866[19:42] <cucumberferity> that is weird to me because I always sleep with a fan on me
86700[19:44] <04dataman> did you know that koreans refuse to sleep with a fan on, its a wives tale that they will die
86800[19:44] <04dataman> they think it chops up the air molecules or something
86900[19:45] <04dataman> i think they know it isnt true, they are high tech after all. Just a remaining piece of culture thats silly
870[19:45] <Caelum> well, they probably have cheap samsung air conditioners so it's not an issue :)
87100[19:45] <04dataman> yea, i stayed in someones apartment in seoul for 2 weeks, samsung everything
87200[19:46] <04dataman> she stayed at my house in USA :)
873[19:46] <Caelum> I like having both the AC and ceiling fans on when it's very hot, because why not, and the ceiling fans make things much more pleasant
874[19:46] <Don`Quixote> not politics, but check this out,. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2017/07/22/i-was-buried-alive-diver-survives-60-hours-trapped-in-an-underwater-cave/
875[19:46] <+gonzobot> Title: ‘I was buried alive’: Diver survives 60 hours trapped in an underwater cave - The Washington Post
876[19:47] <Don`Quixote> that would be scary as shit
877[19:47] <cucumberferity> Caelum http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/samsung
878[19:47] <+gonzobot> Title: Samsung Means To Come | Flash Videos
879[19:48] <UKDivided> dataman: thank you for explaining my joke
880[19:48] <Manos> jokesplaining
881[19:48] <Wednesday> lol
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88300[19:54] <04dataman> thanks i guess you must have triggered me into that random thought
884[20:08] <roshambo> http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/343385-trump-sad-republicans-who-were-carried-over-on-the-line-on-my-back
885[20:08] <+gonzobot> Title: Trump slams 'sad' Republicans who won't 'protect' him | TheHill
886[20:08] <roshambo> Protect him from what?
887[20:08] <roshambo> this isn't the mob
888[20:08] <Manos> Sad!
889[20:08] <UKDivided> can I run a rhetorical line past some people and get some feedback
890[20:08] <roshambo> yes
891[20:09] <Manos> He's been crying on twitter all afternoon/evening. It's remarkable how powerful somebody can still be, and continue to whine like a child.
892[20:09] <UKDivided> I was considering the line between nationalism and patriotism and thought of a definition as follows (too be polished)
893[20:10] <UKDivided> that nationalism is to have a care for ones country and animus the the rest of the world, while patriotism is to have a care for the world but to love ones own country.
894[20:10] <roshambo> that's what I see the 2 terms as
895[20:11] <UKDivided> I'm just trying to find a succinct way of putting it that rolls well off the tongue
896[20:11] <roshambo> patriotism is the positive version and nationalism is the negative version
89703[20:11] * Aegean is now known as dQw4w9WgXcQ
898[20:11] <Otiosorrhea> I don't think that makes sense.
89900[20:11] <04dataman> nationalism is good
90000[20:11] <04dataman> not bad
901[20:12] <UKDivided> Otiosorrhea: my line?
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903[20:12] <roshambo> nationalism is negative to those not from your nation
904[20:12] <Otiosorrhea> The idea of nationalism is to create a kind of community that you can form cultural links that create homogenity large enoguh to have centralised rule over.
905[20:12] <Manos> It's a bit glib, as Nationalism doesn't necessarily demand a dislike of the global community, nor does patriotism infer a care for the world at large.
906[20:12] <roshambo> 2 sides of the same coin
907[20:13] <UKDivided> Otiosorrhea: you think nationalism has to be centralised?
908[20:13] <UKDivided> Manos: can you think of a better pit of rhetoric to distinguish?
909[20:13] <UKDivided> bit*
910[20:14] <Manos> In fact, the two terms are often used by the same groups to describe themselves. I'd day more that Nationalism is a subset of patriotism, patriotism being broader and encompassing a wider range of national pride.
911[20:15] <UKDivided> hmmm
912[20:15] <Otiosorrhea> IF you want to pick an -ism that has cuased the most destruction, it would be nationalism
913[20:15] <UKDivided> and how would you put that across succinctly
91400[20:15] <04dataman> can you even make a distinction between patriotism and nationalism
915[20:16] <roshambo> that's what we're doing
916[20:16] <UKDivided> Otiosorrhea: arguably it's the reason we have most of what we have also
91700[20:16] <04dataman> failing to do
918[20:16] <roshambo> having a discussion
91900[20:17] <04dataman> trying to find a way to differentiate patriotism from MAGA
920[20:18] <UKDivided> well I said nationalism rather than making it trump specific
92100[20:18] <04dataman> see right through it ;)
922[20:18] <UKDivided> dataman: actually I was thinking about the european context 
92303[20:19] * dQw4w9WgXcQ is now known as Aegean
92400[20:19] <04dataman> like what example
925[20:20] <Otiosorrhea> Take your pick.
926[20:20] <Otiosorrhea> UKDivided: Where do you come from?
927[20:20] <UKDivided> well the rise of national sentiment against the pan europeanism
928[20:20] <UKDivided> Otiosorrhea: I'm in the UK atm
929[20:20] <Otiosorrhea> UKDivided: You answered that in temrs of nation, not class.
930[20:21] <UKDivided> class?
931[20:21] <Otiosorrhea> Yes, you could have said "I come from the working class" for example.
932[20:21] <UKDivided> oh...I'm never really sure...I'm in theory upper middle I guess but I'm something of a class traitor
933[20:22] <UKDivided> I suppose I'm following the path of the british eccentric
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935[20:22] <UKDivided> Otiosorrhea: what is your definition of class?
936[20:23] <HydroponicFunBags> corvusmalus, sorry about earlier, couldnt stay connected worth a damn in the rain so i gave up. When you get a chance do you have a link on the wikileaks stuff releasing private data on sex assault victims?
937[20:23] <HydroponicFunBags> I was unfamiliar with that and had been talking in the context of the Podesta mails
938[20:23] <HydroponicFunBags> and i'd like to learn more
939[20:24] <@corvusmalus> UKDivided, don't you have enough british eccentrics in the uk to form a social class on of their own?
940[20:25] <UKDivided> corvusmalus: problem is they are hard to define...herding cats
941[20:25] <Caelum> If you don't have a robe and wizard hat yet, the internet has a easy to follow guide for you: http://www.wikihow.com/Look-Like-a-Wizard
942[20:25] <+gonzobot> Title: How to Look Like a Wizard: 14 Steps (with Pictures) - wikiHow
943[20:25] <UKDivided> Caelum: I got a gown from uni, does that count?
94403[20:25] * Joins: Alien47 (Alien48@Snoonet-3sleg3.l11k.6g2t.2fp60e.IP)
945[20:26] <Caelum> sure
946[20:26] <Otiosorrhea> UKDivided: To some extent it's a self indentification. I would agree the principle aspect is how you make decisions about your life and work. Who gives and who takes orders.
947[20:26] <UKDivided> no wizard hat tho
948[20:26] <roshambo> lol Dolan isn't a nationalist
94906[20:26] * Otiosorrhea casts Level 90 Chicken of the Infinite
950[20:26] <roshambo> he doesn't care about this country
951[20:26] <roshambo> he cares about himself
952[20:26] <UKDivided> Otiosorrhea: well that isn't how it's viewed in the UK it's more cultural which is why I asked
953[20:26] <@corvusmalus> HydroponicFunBags, that's not related to podesta, that's leaks from and about saudi arabia. and sorry, i can't just look into the bookmarks, just google for wikileaks, saudi arabia and gay or rape victims or something like that.
954[20:27] <HydroponicFunBags> k
955[20:27] <UKDivided> people have written books about how different classes have different words and sentiments and things that don't have to correlate with money, career etc
956[20:27] <Otiosorrhea> UKDivided: I was thinking in the more "MArxist" sense.
957[20:28] <UKDivided> oh
958[20:28] <UKDivided> fuck knows then
959[20:28] <Otiosorrhea> But it interesting, people don't instictively answeer "where are yuo from" with a class answer than geographical one.
960[20:28] <UKDivided> I'll let the revolutionaries decide when they put me against the wall
961[20:29] <@corvusmalus> UKDivided, intelligenzia?
962[20:29] <UKDivided> oh certainly that.
963[20:29] <HydroponicFunBags> corvusmalus: https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/768134865049030656?lang=en Did they just re-post and make searchable government data as they often do?
964[20:29] <+gonzobot> (HydroponicFunBags) ✓@wikileaks (WikiLeaks): No, WikiLeaks did not disclose "gays" to the Saudi govt. Data is from govt &amp; not leaked by us. Story from 2015. Re-run now due to election. (11 months and 4 days ago)
96503[20:29] * Parts: Wednesday (nine@user/nine) (Leaving)
966[20:29] <UKDivided> but I'm not of that class as such in that I don't share their sensibilities
967[20:29] <UKDivided> so as I say, class traitor
968[20:30] <UKDivided> but if you knew my "paper work" you'd assume as much
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970[20:32] <UKDivided> Otiosorrhea: I think that's because the term from implies you can move away from it. If you asked people to explain what they are, you might get a class definition, reflecting the greater immutability of it
971[20:34] <Otiosorrhea> UKDivided: Perhaps, but on the other hand if people really had a very strong sense of class identity they wold idetify the class as where the had come from.
972[20:34] <Otiosorrhea> Maybe I over-egg it.
973[20:34] <UKDivided> would you answer the question with a class concious manner rather than geographic?
974[20:34] <UKDivided> where are you from?
975[20:35] <Otiosorrhea> No probably not, becuase the context is such thst we live in a soicety which wouldn't expect that answer.
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977[20:35] <Otiosorrhea> Si it would likely alienate me from whoever I'm talking to.
978[20:35] <UKDivided> welcome to social norms
979[20:35] <Otiosorrhea> no thnx, don't like them.
980[20:35] <UKDivided> idk I'm pretty keen on some
981[20:37] <Adie_> hey dataman, what's that one new politics channel that you sent to everyone unsolicited?
982[20:37] <Adie_> I wanna troll it
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984[20:38] <void> Adie_: Please on't.
985[20:38] <void> don't*
986[20:38] <Adie_> well uh
98706[20:38] * Adie_ pushes void over and kicks dirt in his direction
988[20:38] <void> Rude
98906[20:38] * Adie_ yells "NERD!"
990[20:39] <@corvusmalus> HydroponicFunBags, not, wikileaks just disputes to have outed them to the saudi government. that's pretty natural because it was saudi gov. cables and documents that wikileaks published, i guess also nobody has claimed that... but they outed all those people to the public by publishing it. e.g. here is an article: http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2016/08/23/wikileaks-outs-gay-people-in-saudi-arabi
991[20:39] <@corvusmalus> a-in-reckless-mass-data-dump/
992[20:39] <+gonzobot> Title: WikiLeaks outs gay people in Saudi Arabia in ‘reckless’ mass data dump · PinkNews
99300[20:40] <04dataman> void are you an actual channel mod in here
994[20:40] <HydroponicFunBags> everything related to this that im digging up hinges on a single AP report corvusmalus. Everyone else is just citing the AP.
995[20:41] <roshambo> "Hello, where are you from?" "The middle class, you?"
996[20:42] <UKDivided> roshambo: that sounds like you are really insecure to me, like you are trying to shake off your working class origins
997[20:42] <Otiosorrhea> Yes, it's interesting that class is for most people the primary factor in what effects their lives, but for almost no one is a primary identity.
998[20:42] <roshambo> middle class people work UKDivided
999[20:42] <UKDivided> I know...
1000[20:43] <UKDivided> but we distinguish between working class and middle class
1001[20:43] <roshambo> ok fine, I'm a bard
1002[20:43] <@corvusmalus> HydroponicFunBags, and? ap investigated / read it, and found that data in the dump. https://apnews.com/b70da83fd111496dbdf015acbb7987fb
1003[20:43] <+gonzobot> Title: Private lives are exposed as WikiLeaks spills its secrets
1004[20:43] <UKDivided> roshambo: sing us a song
1005[20:44] <HydroponicFunBags> I'm still digging, gonna go direct to wikileaks see if they say if its republished data that already was out there. I am skeptical of the MSM on certain things. Wikileaks is one of those things.
100603[20:44] * Joins: mapleb0 (mapleb0@Snoonet-hm5.47b.ahc25o.IP)
1007[20:44] <br00tal> Adie_: Here's everytime d-man posted anything with a hashtag in it (i.e. an IRC channel name). Maybe one of the posts will jog your memory. http://ix.io/yFa
1008[20:44] <br00tal> Since 6/19, that is.
1009[20:44] <HydroponicFunBags> Sort of like how WaPo regularly publishes defense industry lobbyists who write about urging intervention in Syria or Iran...without disclosing they work for Raytheon or frequently lobby for more wars.
1010[20:44] <roshambo> from my understanding, since it really isn't discussed much, the classes would go (from top to bottom) Elite, 1%, Upper, Upper Middle, Middle, Lower Middle, Lower, Poverty
1011[20:45] <roshambo> working or not really doesn't have anything to do with it
1012[20:45] <HydroponicFunBags> When someone is doing a hit on Wikileaks, I feel better when it's more than just one MSM source and then dozens of MSM sources echoing it and citing the same report.
1013[20:45] <void> dataman: nah
1014[20:45] <@corvusmalus> HydroponicFunBags^, first i don't think it is republished, but jsut a  second about that. and second - this: "“This has nothing to do with politics or corruption,” said Dr. Nayef al-Fayez, a consultant in the Jordanian capital of Amman who confirmed that a brain cancer patient of his was among those whose details were published to the web. Dr. Adnan Salhab, a retired practitioner in Jordan 
1015[20:45] <@corvusmalus> who also had a patient named in the files, expressed anger when shown the document." also shouldn't be republished.
1016[20:46] <roshambo> also it depends vastly on where you live
1017[20:46] <UKDivided> indeed
1018[20:46] <roshambo> a "lower class" Manhattanite might be a 1%er in West Virginia
1019[20:47] <HydroponicFunBags> corvusmalus: I would like to confirm whether or not it's republished data one way or another. You told me to figure it out on my own so I'm reading.
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102103[20:49] * NSA sets mode: +o corvusmalus
1022[20:49] <@corvusmalus> HydroponicFunBags: https://wikileaks.org/saudi-cables/press
1023[20:49] <+gonzobot> Title: The Saudi Cables
1024[20:49] <HydroponicFunBags> mhm, i found it.
1025[20:50] <@corvusmalus> or here: http://time.com/3928584/wikileaks-saudi-arabia-cables/
1026[20:52] <@corvusmalus> so somebody published "samples" before: "The group did not attribute the documents to a source directly. The press release did note that the Saudi Foreign Ministry acknowledged a computer network breach in May, and a group called the Yemeni Cyber Army afterward began releasing “sample” classified material to various websites."
1027[20:59] <Don`Quixote> Hey, for me, part of saving the environment is awareness.         https://www.yahoo.com/news/newly-discovered-nevada-toad-species-already-under-threat-211151066.html
1028[20:59] <+gonzobot> Title: Newly discovered Nevada toad species already under threat
1029[21:00] <Don`Quixote> what they are wanting to build will kill them off
1030[21:00] <Don`Quixote> not could
103103[21:04] * Parts: pogostik (pogos@Snoonet-dp4.g6q.cngg0m.IP)
1032[21:04] <HydroponicFunBags> yeah corvusmalus, I'm not coming up with any sort of reasonable defense for this the more I read up on it. Sounds like they are publishing too fast without having the resources to vet all the content first and do proper redactions.
1033[21:07] <Don`Quixote> Hey, check out this study, it can become quite political quite fast if put into practice. http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/07/22/is-the-ground-on-the-stanford-campus-listening-to-you/
1034[21:07] <+gonzobot> Title: Is the ground beneath the Stanford campus listening to you?
1035[21:10] <Snoo49549> be my wendy ill be ur peter pan
1036[21:12] <HydroponicFunBags> "Eric Rodenbeck, the founder and CEO of Stamen, thinks fiber optic cables will eventually be able to tell the difference between different models of cars and how many people are riding in them." This could suck for smugglers don`quixote
1037[21:12] <Manos> I like this future surveillance state where the network is an underground web of fiber optics. Someone should write that into a YA series with a spunky female lead.
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1039[21:13] <HydroponicFunBags> lol manos
1040[21:13] <HydroponicFunBags> im staying out in the sticks, maybe all this creepy shit will take an extra generation to hit the woods.
104103[21:16] * Joins: Alien47 (Alien48@Snoonet-nm856d.l11k.6g2t.2fp60e.IP)
1042[21:18] <UKDivided> HydroponicFunBags: only if you have real time response/budget/give a shit
1043[21:19] <UKDivided> also, you mean post their lives on facebook while enabling their 24/7 personal GPS trackers they pay for themselves
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1045[21:23] <Snoo49549> Donald got his Brother written out of Dad's will by manipulating his own Father in the final days of Alzheimer's, then used the life of his Grandnephew as a bargaining chip against his own Nephew.
1046[21:24] <HydroponicFunBags> https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/889279880336166914
1047[21:24] <+gonzobot> (HydroponicFunBags) ✓@realDonaldTrump (Donald J. Trump): Thank you to @LOUDOBBS for giving the first six months of the Trump Administration an A+. S.C.,reg cutting,Stock M, jobs,border etc. = TRUE! (1 hour and 17 seconds ago)
1048[21:24] <HydroponicFunBags> lou dobbs is still alive?
1049[21:24] <HydroponicFunBags> TIL.
105000[21:24] <04dataman> Snoo49549 change your nick
1051[21:25] <HydroponicFunBags> o lordy he back
1052[21:25] <@corvusmalus> HydroponicFunBags, i doubt wikileaks can vet 60,000+ emails mostly in arabic language, in any time.
105300[21:26] <04dataman> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTRRTdsdFUY&feature=youtu.be&t=4m7s
1054[21:26] <+gonzobot> (dataman) "Ni har blod på era händer": Folkuppror när asylboende öppnas vid dagis - length 6m 11s - 134 likes, 13 dislikes (91.2%) - 12,222 views - DID mannen on 2016.02.05
1055[21:26] <HydroponicFunBags> corvusmalus: So whats the solution? What about the things of value in the dump? Are certain regimes off limits because they dont speak the language?
1056[21:27] <HydroponicFunBags> It's hard to argue that it should be left up to journos in Saudi Arabia to handle, considering it will get them killed.
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1058[21:28] <@corvusmalus> let professionals, e.g. journalists deal with it? and let them time? and they don't have to be in saudi arabia.
105900[21:29] <04dataman> https://twitter.com/RichardDawkins/status/889099151736283136
1060[21:29] <+gonzobot> (dataman) ✓@RichardDawkins (Richard Dawkins): London gay Pride march. Police happy with “Jesus is Gay” banners. But banned @theCEMB’s “Allah is Gay” banner. @KPFA-grade hypocrisy! (13 hours and 3 minutes ago)
1061[21:30] <HydroponicFunBags> Well, Wikileaks used to collaborate better with outlets like the Guardian, for instance, but that relationship didnt last. I think further such partnerships could serve them well.. But on the Wikileaks side of things, they are concerned with journos who have become mere mouthpieces for the regimes Wikileaks is trying to expose.
1062[21:30] <HydroponicFunBags> An example of that is op eds published in major newspapers written by lobbyists but not identified as lobbyists. MSM journalists dont trust Wikileaks, and Wikileaks doesnt trust MSM journalists.
1063[21:32] <@corvusmalus> the relation with the guardian broke afair mostly because of just that - because assange wanted to publish partial complete dumps just with the biggest impact, and asap, without checking or redacting it.
1064[21:32] <Snoo49549> how is trump so fucking pathetic
106500[21:32] <04dataman> https://twitter.com/ReneeCarrollPhx/status/888798020040392704
1066[21:32] <+gonzobot> (dataman) @ReneeCarrollPhx (Agent Renee 🇺🇸): 34yr old journalist who won Pulitzer Prize for challenging Obamacare was FOUND DEAD! Was he on the KILL LIST too❓ https://t.co/enXdTqS6ws (1 day and 9 hours ago)
106700[21:33] <04dataman> Donald J Trump is the President of the United States of America
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106900[21:34] <04dataman> i just made a meme, want to see it?
107000[21:35] <04dataman> https://i.imgtc.com/fTmyUuB.png
1071[21:36] <HydroponicFunBags> http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/07/joe-scarborough-mika-brzezinski-engagement-donald-trump.html
1072[21:36] <+gonzobot> Title: Joe Scarborough, Mika Brzezinski, & Trump: A Love Story
1073[21:36] <HydroponicFunBags> the opener for this article goes on a long crazy time about how often their pet rabbits fuck
1074[21:37] <HydroponicFunBags> dataman...except for all the things that keep getting found, but keep fucking that chicken if it makes you feel better.
1075[21:38] <UKDivided> is that a phrase HydroponicFunBags?
1076[21:38] <HydroponicFunBags> It is. Never heard it before?
107700[21:38] <04dataman> HydroponicFunBags what did they find?
1078[21:39] <UKDivided> I've heard of beating dead horses, but never chicken fucking
1079[21:40] <HydroponicFunBags> dataman: I'm not getting sucked in. You get access to the news just like I do. Look it up. Most recently, even more ties between that Vaselyska (however you spell it) woman having direct ties to the Russian gov.
1080[21:40] <HydroponicFunBags> I'd love to know where it originated, UKDivided. Too the internet!
1081[21:40] <HydroponicFunBags> to*
108200[21:40] <04dataman> sucked in?
108300[21:40] <04dataman> you said they found something
1084[21:41] <Don`Quixote> HydroponicFunBags:  ya know, thats kind of sounding hateful  saying dataman this and that in such ways, you know, that may go aginst you.
1085[21:41] <HydroponicFunBags> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Keep%20fucking%20that%20chicken
1086[21:41] <+gonzobot> Title: Urban Dictionary: Keep fucking that chicken
1087[21:41] <UKDivided> HydroponicFunBags: that's a google I'll let you do :P
1088[21:41] <HydroponicFunBags> Fascinating, Urban Dictionary claims it originated on a live Fox 5 news broadcast!
1089[21:41] <@corvusmalus> ah, that's why i don't know it.
1090[21:42] <HydroponicFunBags> don`quixote huh?
1091[21:43] <Don`Quixote> you mentioned him fucking a chicken, right after talking about other bestiality subjects.
1092[21:43] <HydroponicFunBags> Bestiality?
1093[21:44] <HydroponicFunBags> I talked about rabbits fucking....nobody fucked the rabbits... but it wasnt in relation to what I said to dataman.
1094[21:44] <Don`Quixote> people watching their pet rabbits fuck, but thats besides the point
109500[21:44] <04dataman> this channel....................................
1096[21:45] <Don`Quixote> n/m
1097[21:45] <Don`Quixote> ill go back to smoking my weed
1098[21:47] <HydroponicFunBags> I think maybe you've had enough. Watching your pet rabbits fuck makes you a practitioner of bestiality now? Are all farmers into animal sex? If you see your pet cat or dog banging in the yard are you officially labeled as someone into bestiality?
1099[21:47] <Don`Quixote> OK fine I am jealous,  when it comes to animals I have not seen a flying sheep in so long....
110003[21:51] * Parts: Otiosorrhea (Otiosorrhea@user/Otiosorrhea)
1101[21:52] <Don`Quixote> http://www.newsmax.com/politics/pence-trump-presidency-historic/2017/07/23/id/803300/
1102[21:52] <+gonzobot> Title: Pence Praises Trump's 'Historic' First 6 Months, Vows He's Just Getting Started
1103[21:54] <Don`Quixote> May as well break out the song, Halestorm - I Miss The Misery
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1107[21:56] <Don`Quixote> http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/343398-trump-to-speak-on-healthcare-monday
1108[21:56] <+gonzobot> Title: Trump to speak on healthcare Monday | TheHill
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1110[21:59] <Snoo49549> he wont do shit 
1111[21:59] <Snoo49549> god what a incompetent piece of FAT shit
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1115[22:03] <angrybread> he will meet the victims of obamacare
1116[22:03] <angrybread> lol
1117[22:04] <Snoo49549> lol what victims lololol
1118[22:05] <Snoo49549> Bob Overmill owner of overmill mowers the largest seller of overmill mowing machines
1119[22:05] <HydroponicFunBags> oh my glob yes new adventure time eps are up
1120[22:05] <HydroponicFunBags> that reality os way more fun than this one
1121[22:05] <Snoo49549> "I used to pay $200 a month now I pay $500!"
1122[22:05] <Snoo49549> *Literally is a multimillionarire
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1125[22:07] <UKDivided> Snoo49549: I don't understand your point?
1126[22:07] <HydroponicFunBags> the only victims of ocare would be millionaires?
1127[22:07] <Snoo49549> that health prices will rise in the us no matter what anyone does bar literally putting old people into concentration camps
1128[22:07] <Snoo49549> and purging them
1129[22:07] <UKDivided> in a demographic sense yes
1130[22:08] <HydroponicFunBags> and people in that gap between poverty and subsidies cut off line and middle class, who get fucked in states who refused medicaid expansion
1131[22:08] <angrybread> hes a victim of obama care because his higher tax bracket requires him to pay more
1132[22:08] <UKDivided> but not more than doubling as your quoted number
1133[22:08] <Snoo49549> but the GOP plan won't help them at all
1134[22:08] <Snoo49549> the only thing it does it cut taxes for the rich
1135[22:08] <Snoo49549> the law will not make care more affordable for anyone
1136[22:08] <Snoo49549> im being facetious
1137[22:08] <HydroponicFunBags> ~shrug~ I got it.
1138[22:08] <UKDivided> oh ok I thought you were making a serious point
1139[22:08] <UKDivided> carry on
1140[22:08] <angrybread> so rich people with money to pay for healthcare are the victims, because they have to pay a higher share
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1142[22:09] <angrybread> censored
1143[22:09] <UKDivided> angrybread: the problem isn't that as far as I can tell, the problem is the issue of "opting out"
1144[22:10] <angrybread> rich people dont want to pay taxes
1145[22:10] <Don`Quixote> no0 the rich people feel the victims because they have to help pay others healcare too, when they can afford the finest for them selves.
1146[22:10] <UKDivided> Don`Quixote: I don't think that is the primary problem either
1147[22:10] <angrybread> you cant opt out paying for the roads, or public education, or sales tax
1148[22:10] <angrybread> im sorry but you shouldnt be able to opt out of health insurance
1149[22:10] <UKDivided> angrybread: indeed but that's single payer, Ocare isn't single payer
1150[22:11] <Snoo49549> man everyone in this retarded show are bad people
1151[22:11] <UKDivided> the problem of Ocare is that it's a painful middle ground
1152[22:11] <angrybread> thats only because obama care is republican legislation
1153[22:11] <HydroponicFunBags> Okay but you need an incentive for young people to get care to pay into pool. So far the republican plan for this is to make it so if you drop overage, you are barred from getting it again for like 6 months.
115400[22:11] <04dataman> ist the worst of everything
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1156[22:11] <HydroponicFunBags> Which doesnt really seem to be a solution because if you get hurt during the 6 months you'd go to the ER anyway
1157[22:11] <UKDivided> HydroponicFunBags: indeed the system needs to penalise people who drop out because of the perverse incentives
1158[22:12] <angrybread> you dont need an incentive for them to pay into the pool, if they are in a car accident, the tax payer has to pay for their health care.  it has nothing to do with sick or old.  everyone needs to pay in
1159[22:12] <angrybread> they should not be able to opt out
1160[22:12] <UKDivided> angrybread: that would be single payer, but that isn't the Ocare system
1161[22:12] <Don`Quixote> i hear with single payer, if you have a pre-existing condition,  even if its found out later because of genetic testing, they can refuse you. and if you get refused you cant shop around when the government has it as a part of their system.
1162[22:12] <angrybread> yeah, and that needs to change
1163[22:12] <UKDivided> Don`Quixote: no
1164[22:12] <UKDivided> that isn't how our single payer system works
1165[22:13] <HydroponicFunBags> UKdivided: Kind of seems like it'd be so much easier if they just witheld money from our paychecks like they do for medicare/SS. Everyone keeps pretending like we dont have a totally workable solution when we do, we give it to our old people, just like we give them basic income via SS taxes.
1166[22:13] <angrybread> republicans created the problem by resisting single payer, now we have fees for those who opt out
1167[22:13] <UKDivided> there isn't a pre-existing condition because you are covered cradle to grave
1168[22:13] <angrybread> either they pay the fee or go single payer
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1170[22:13] <Don`Quixote> I am taliking USA
1171[22:13] <UKDivided> HydroponicFunBags: indeed you could go full single payer, but you'd have to nationalise your healthcare in a way no one can manage politically
1172[22:14] <HydroponicFunBags> USA doesnt have a single payer system so how can it work that way don?
1173[22:14] <jerkstate> good luck to the middle class worker who is counting on their SS to retire and suddently SS becomes UBI and is cut in half
1174[22:14] <Snoo49549> Obamacare is a serviceable program if it is set up correctly and allowed to be fix but it's not 
1175[22:14] <Don`Quixote> thats what I am saying,
1176[22:14] <angrybread> medicaid, medicare is basically single payer
1177[22:14] <jerkstate> instead of having a decent retirement, you have to live in a commie block tenement
1178[22:14] <Snoo49549> I'm not convinced a single payer system can work in america 
1179[22:14] <UKDivided> HydroponicFunBags: sure we pay for single payer healthcare through general taxation
1180[22:14] <jerkstate> sorry you paid into the system your whole life
1181[22:14] <Snoo49549> no country has switched to a single payer system in today's modern world
1182[22:14] <HydroponicFunBags> jerkstate: Middle class workers shouldnt have to depend solely on SS to retire....maybe if the sacred job creators paid them more they would be able to invest in the stock market and have a nest egg.
1183[22:14] <UKDivided> Snoo49549: define modernt world?
1184[22:15] <Snoo49549> they all implemented them ages ago before modern medicine and with much lower populations and grew them over time
1185[22:15] <Snoo49549> the past 20-30 years?
118600[22:15] <04dataman> obamacare is the worst of everything, all of the insurance and high cost, without the benefit of getting access to quality care
1187[22:15] <UKDivided> well the NHS is only 50 years old, we were pretty modern then
1188[22:15] <jerkstate> HydroponicFunBags: oh, the stock market that crashes every 7-10 years?
1189[22:15] <jerkstate> good call!
1190[22:15] <angrybread> obamacare is the republican heart act 
1191[22:15] <Snoo49549> lol 
1192[22:15] <Don`Quixote> in a single payer, will people like parents get stuck with wanting to try other things to save their child, while the state refuses them thinking they know whats best, or refuses to fund any other kinds of treatments?
1193[22:15] <angrybread> of course its bad
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1195[22:15] <Snoo49549> dataman doesn't even understand obamacare
1196[22:15] <mapleb0> lmfao this guy wants to have the middle class invest in the market
119700[22:15] <04dataman> i know all about it
119800[22:15] <04dataman> and why it sucks
1199[22:15] <Snoo49549> there's essentially no difference in the care you receive between obamacare now and before 
1200[22:16] <Snoo49549> it's changed nothing when it comes to actual healthcare
120100[22:16] <04dataman> yes there is
1202[22:16] <Snoo49549> it's all about insurance
1203[22:16] <HydroponicFunBags> jerkstate: So you dont advocate investing for anyone other than the mega-wealthy? The rest of us should just depend SOLELY on SS income when we get old?
1204[22:16] <mapleb0> healthcare in canada is dog shit compared to the US
1205[22:16] <UKDivided> Snoo49549: that isn't true
1206[22:16] <Snoo49549> no there's not 
1207[22:16] <mapleb0> the doctors are trash
1208[22:16] <jerkstate> bank accounts no longer pay any interest so you HAVE to invest in the volatile stock market if you dont want inflation to eat your money
1209[22:16] <jerkstate> when did bank accounts stop paying interest?
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1211[22:16] <Snoo49549> Doctors in the us are quite shit so I have a hard time believing that
121200[22:16] <04dataman> 20% of americans are down to 1 choice of insurer...... next year all of Iowa will have zero!!!
1213[22:16] <Snoo49549> I assum doctors in Canada actually care about cost of care 
1214[22:16] <Snoo49549> which would be awesome 
1215[22:16] <Snoo49549> us Doctors give zero fucks 
1216[22:16] <mapleb0> the good Drs move to the US
1217[22:17] <Snoo49549> and that damages health care 
1218[22:17] <mapleb0> you get C+ doctors in canada
1219[22:17] <mapleb0> the good ones move to the US
1220[22:17] <mapleb0> get paid 3-4x more
1221[22:17] <mapleb0> and dont pay 49% income
1222[22:17] <mapleb0> tax
1223[22:17] <Snoo49549> like I said there aren't many good doctors in the us 
1224[22:17] <UKDivided> Snoo49549: ours only really care about the patient, they are constantly at odds with the bean counters
1225[22:17] <Snoo49549> specialists - maybe 
1226[22:17] <HydroponicFunBags> jerkstate: My credit union account earns interest, just not very much. I make 10 dollars an hour and I still put 150 a month into an IRA account for investment.
1227[22:17] <Snoo49549> but run of the mill doctors?
1228[22:17] <Snoo49549> they're pretty shitty
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1230[22:18] <Snoo49549> UKDivided that's good 
1231[22:18] <mapleb0> incentive dictates behavior
1232[22:18] <jerkstate> its less than inflation though HydroponicFunBags 
1233[22:18] <Don`Quixote> in a single payer, will people like parents get stuck with wanting to try other things to save their child, while the state refuses them thinking they know whats best, or refuses to fund any other kinds of treatments?
1234[22:18] <HydroponicFunBags> true.
1235[22:18] <Snoo49549> the problem is in the US we spend so much money on unnecesarry shit
1236[22:18] <jerkstate> savings account interest used to be more than inflation
1237[22:18] <Snoo49549> that in inflates the cost of coverage and care for everyone
1238[22:18] <mapleb0> yea
1239[22:18] <mapleb0> so true
1240[22:18] <Snoo49549> one of the problems there are several
1241[22:18] <mapleb0> it's bullshit
1242[22:18] <UKDivided> Snoo49549: are the doctors shitty or are they given shitty incentives by the legal cost of care etc
1243[22:18] <jerkstate> can you imagine? a guaranteed place to put your money where it was guaranteed to accumulate?
1244[22:18] <Snoo49549> because doctors don't care about costs 
1245[22:18] <Snoo49549> because of insurance they are isolated from it 
1246[22:18] <Snoo49549> that is the advantage of single payer 
1247[22:18] <jerkstate> this concept no longer exists
1248[22:19] <Snoo49549> that doctors are more aware of costs
1249[22:19] <mapleb0> they are not isolated from they know how much everythign costs
1250[22:19] <Snoo49549> jerkstate sure there is 
1251[22:19] <Snoo49549> they're called bonds
1252[22:19] <Snoo49549> cd's
1253[22:19] <Snoo49549> annuities
1254[22:19] <jerkstate> have you looked into cd rates lately
1255[22:19] <UKDivided> Don`Quixote: they do, but that's no different from when the insirance company decides the treatment isn't "justified"
1256[22:19] <Snoo49549> life insurance contracts
1257[22:19] <mapleb0> it's called, spend less then you make
1258[22:19] <HydroponicFunBags> don`quixote Maybe. Acceptable cost...if you are rich enough you can pay for those experimental treatments. parents already make this choice in the current system because ins companies wont pay for something if its too experimental.
1259[22:19] <jerkstate> they are all lower than inflation
1260[22:20] <jerkstate> t-bills are lower than inflation
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1262[22:20] <jerkstate> bonds are not guaranteed
1263[22:20] <HydroponicFunBags> I have had experimental treatments for a genetic condition... ins company gave me pre-approval for it. then after i got it done, they RESCINDED the pre-approval and refused to pay
1264[22:20] <HydroponicFunBags> and i had to pay out of pocket
1265[22:20] <HydroponicFunBags> I was lucky enough to have a kind doctor who ate some of the cost due to ins company pulling the rug out from under me.
1266[22:20] <mapleb0> what is pre approval
1267[22:21] <mapleb0> vs approval
1268[22:21] <jerkstate> so i rest my case, there is no place to put your money that is guaranteed that will accumulate faster than inflation
1269[22:21] <HydroponicFunBags> So its not like these things arent already happening, parents dont always have guaranteed access to experimental treatments for their kids.
1270[22:21] <mapleb0> sounds like some insurance bullshiet
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127200[22:21] <04dataman> ACA = Insurance.. NOT healthcare
1273[22:21] <HydroponicFunBags> mapleb0 it means i contacted ths ins company ahead of time with a doc reccommendation for an experimental treatment and they agreed to pay for it
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1275[22:21] <Don`Quixote> but wouldn't many payer insurance be better then?
1276[22:21] <HydroponicFunBags> then after i got it done with that understanding, they said never mind, we have decided we dont want to pay for it anymore
1277[22:21] <srvdown> Cd's are about on pace with inflation
1278[22:21] <srvdown> You can have high interest bank accounts but 
1279[22:21] <HydroponicFunBags> and denied my claim
1280[22:21] <UKDivided> jerkstate: agricultural land?
1281[22:21] <srvdown> that has a downside 
1282[22:22] <srvdown> there's actual policy behind all that 
1283[22:22] <srvdown> high interest is going to increase the prices of loans for average consumers substantially
1284[22:22] <jerkstate> UKDivided: can you buy $200 of agricultural land a week?
128503[22:22] * srvdown is now known as Snoo32679
1286[22:22] <UKDivided> buy into funds
1287[22:22] <Snoo32679> so you can either have low interest and borrow money cheaply but investments grow slower
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1289[22:22] <Snoo32679> or high interest and make borrowing prohibative for more of the population and businesses and investments grow faster
1290[22:23] <Snoo32679> the design of the policy is done to promote people not saving but spending money now to move the economy 
1291[22:23] <Snoo32679> and that' important
1292[22:23] <Snoo32679> a lot of money is holed up that is not invested in the economy in any feasible means
1293[22:23] <Don`Quixote> Hell I can tell you where you can get 50$ an acre and in the USAm if you dont mind living in deserts.\
1294[22:23] <Snoo32679> there's no fucking water in the desert 
1295[22:23] <Snoo32679> or electricity 
1296[22:23] <Snoo32679> or jobs
1297[22:24] <Snoo32679> why would anyone want to live there?
1298[22:24] <Don`Quixote> some people do
1299[22:24] <angrybread> i want to live in the desert
1300[22:25] <Don`Quixote> for about half a year I tried it, and fuck man, the extremes in temps from day to night during the winters and summers.
1301[22:25] <Don`Quixote> to dry for me
1302[22:25] <angrybread> , zd;lgbpdglkb
1303[22:25] <angrybread> ;fglmn
1304[22:25] <angrybread> ;dlmmb
1305[22:25] <angrybread> ;zdlgb
1306[22:26] <UKDivided> angrybread: what type of desert?
1307[22:26] <Don`Quixote> over by 29 psalms
1308[22:26] <angrybread> high desert
1309[22:26] <Don`Quixote> California border, not far from death vally
1310[22:27] <angrybread> death valley is pretty 
1311[22:27] <Snoo32679> I rather be able to borrow cheaply now 
1312[22:27] <Snoo32679> than invest for the future 
1313[22:27] <Alien47> is there nothing there angrybread  ?
1314[22:27] <angrybread> and is close to yosemite 
1315[22:27] <Snoo32679> if I want to make my money I need to be able to make it now 
1316[22:27] <Alien47> i imagine its too hot to have inhabitants
1317[22:27] <Snoo32679> interest rates and specifically fees are too high 
1318[22:27] <Snoo32679> to make money like you used to 
1319[22:27] <angrybread> salt flats and moving stones in death valley
1320[22:27] <Snoo32679> on property
1321[22:27] <Snoo32679> and things of that sort
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1323[22:28] <angrybread> people live in death valley
1324[22:28] <angrybread> not very many
1325[22:29] <Don`Quixote> the dry humidity is good for many people.
1326[22:29] <Alien47> dry humidity ?
1327[22:29] <Don`Quixote> dry air
1328[22:29] <Alien47> isnt that like an oxymoron ?
1329[22:29] <Alien47> humidity= moisture in the air
1330[22:30] <Don`Quixote> only if you care to waste time thinking on it instead of the idea behind the subject
1331[22:30] <Alien47> dry humidity makes no sense.
1332[22:30] <angrybread> low humidity
1333[22:30] <Don`Quixote> ^
1334[22:30] <Snoo32679> dont live where human beings are not supposed to live
1335[22:30] <Snoo32679> you think death valley is bad now?
1336[22:30] <Snoo32679> it's going to get hotter 
1337[22:30] <Snoo32679> in the next 20 years
1338[22:30] <Snoo32679> not cooler
1339[22:30] <Snoo32679> 140 degrees in death valley now is 150 or 160 in the future 
1340[22:30] <mapleb0> o
1341[22:30] <Snoo32679> you will not survive
1342[22:31] <Don`Quixote> good places for solar though
1343[22:31] <Alien47> i wonder whats up with those moving rocks
1344[22:32] <Don`Quixote> Alien47:  the dust is so fine that when it does rain the ground gets vary soft, allowing the quick winds to push aginst the stones, making them move, seen a film on it once..
1345[22:32] <@corvusmalus> Don`Quixote, for solar thermic and solar chemical, yes. for photovoltaics - no - they want it as light as possible, and as cool as possible.
1346[22:32] <UKDivided> Snoo32679: a 20 degree increase? I doubt it
1347[22:33] <Alien47> Don`Quixote, thanks never knew that
1348[22:33] <Don`Quixote> good points corvusmalus \
1349[22:33] <Alien47> i always thought it was a mystery
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1351[22:34] <Don`Quixote> its just that they move so slow it was strange to people to see
1352[22:34] <@corvusmalus> Don`Quixote, when you own a pv you know that - best effiency and highest hourly production for me here is spring and autumn - when it is still cold but also already pretty much light.
135303[22:34] * Joins: HydroponicFunBags (HydroponicF@user/HydroponicFunBags)
1354[22:35] <Don`Quixote> there are a lot of up and coming solar advancements as well though, so who knows
1355[22:35] <@corvusmalus> (a whole summer day is still much more, because it is longer)
135603[22:36] * Joins: angrybread (angrytoast@user/angrybread)
1357[22:36] <@corvusmalus> Don`Quixote, oh sure. also there are solar thermic (mechanical) power plants. they like light and heat. and then there are photo thermic / chemical power plants, they also like heat.
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1360[22:37] <Snoo32679> only 31 peple live in edeath valley haha
1361[22:38] <Don`Quixote> I like  this one video of this guy, using the suns heat to melt sand make sand into glass, using large magnifiers to focus the light.
136203[22:38] * Joins: CBX (CBX@Snoonet-e6l.0gt.bt0n6u.IP)
1363[22:38] <UKDivided> Don`Quixote: there are more impressive ones that that
1364[22:38] <Don`Quixote> show me
1365[22:38] <@corvusmalus> for solar thermic / photovoltaics there are also combi solutions now on the market - they use the solar thermic fluid to cool down the pv cells. as they are much larger than needed for a house you can drive them at pretty low temp, but you need big buffer tanks.
1366[22:39] <Don`Quixote> also seen where old time TV screens can be used as magnifiers too.
1367[22:40] <Don`Quixote> corvusmalus:  sounds interesting,
1368[22:40] <Don`Quixote> mostly I notice whats new in the research, in the news.
1369[22:40] <@corvusmalus> Don`Quixote, well to buy a tv fresnell lens or use mirrors seems much simpler and is even for alumiunium already more efficient. to cut a tv screen apart is a mess, and it is leaded glass dust you don't want to inhale when you cut it ;)
1370[22:41] <@corvusmalus> Don`Quixote, oh, that's not research, i had an add for it in my hands 8 years ago or so ;)
1371[22:41] <@corvusmalus> ^ad
1372[22:41] <UKDivided> Don`Quixote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tt7RG3UR4c
1373[22:41] <+gonzobot> (UKDivided) Melting steel with solar power - length 1m 54s - 1,914 likes, 26 dislikes (98.7%) - 1,047,128 views - Qcco on 2008.10.13
1374[22:42] <@corvusmalus> Don`Quixote, a good idea is to get an old, large parabol sat mirror and put silver or aluminium foil onto it.
137503[22:42] * Joins: edwinksl (edwinksl@user/edwinksl)
1376[22:43] <Don`Quixote> good idea, that would work
137700[22:43] <04dataman> http://imgur.com/gallery/eTipt
1378[22:43] <+gonzobot> Title: Reality of the LGBT Movement. - Album on Imgur
1379[22:44] <@corvusmalus> UKDivided, that's the very fancy version ;)
1380[22:44] <Don`Quixote> UKDivided:  thanks, i liked the video
1381[22:44] <Don`Quixote> yes it was
1382[22:44] <Snoo32679> im reall y intereted in geothermic cooling
1383[22:44] <Don`Quixote> vary fancy
138400[22:45] <04dataman> geothermic cooling = global warming
138500[22:45] <04dataman> i found out whos doing it!!!!
1386[22:45] <Snoo32679> lol what a pathetic post 
1387[22:45] <Snoo32679> http://i.imgur.com/1z2aHJT.jpg people are mad about this
1388[22:45] <Snoo32679> what a buncha loosers
138900[22:45] <04dataman> yea shows he's a bad parent.
139000[22:46] <04dataman> trhat kid will hit 13 and not know what the fuck is going on
1391[22:46] <Don`Quixote> I dont see what you guys are talking about
1392[22:46] <@corvusmalus> Don`Quixote, with such a bigger setup, more looking like the big solar thermic power plant in spain, there is also the possibility to drive chemical reactions by the power and store the energy "directly" chemically. that's be indeed interesting for e.g. the death valley.
1393[22:47] <Don`Quixote> what? the way he is letting his kids dress?
139400[22:47] <04dataman> yea thats a failed family unit right there
139500[22:48] <04dataman> kids takes the damage
1396[22:48] <HydroponicFunBags> Why are we mad? It looks like theyre at comic con...
1397[22:48] <HydroponicFunBags> and she dressed like harley quinn...
1398[22:48] <HydroponicFunBags> it
1399[22:48] <HydroponicFunBags> is cute?
140000[22:48] <04dataman> yea he's dressed as a slut in fishnet with lipstick on her face
1401[22:48] <HydroponicFunBags> Are you also having a meltdown over the little boy dressed as Annakin Skywalker?
140200[22:48] <04dataman> amazing what leftists support
1403[22:48] <Don`Quixote> You know what gets me? Egypt has such the potential to be a world leader in making glass, all that sand, they could build whole cities of glass if they wanted.
1404[22:48] <HydroponicFunBags> You're the one who is sexualizing a child, my friend.
1405[22:49] <HydroponicFunBags> Perhaps it is you with the problem and not the little girl dressing up like a comic book character.
1406[22:49] <@corvusmalus> even the daily mail: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-4719676/Liev-Schreiber-treats-costumed-sons-Comic-Con.html 
1407[22:49] <+gonzobot> Title: Liev Schreiber treats his costumed sons to Comic-Con | Daily Mail Online
1408[22:49] <Don`Quixote> yet they do little with it
1409[22:49] <UKDivided> dataman: I think you are making a bad case for your own side here, "playing dress up" is not the same as gender bending in normal life
1410[22:49] <UKDivided> think haloween
1411[22:50] <HydroponicFunBags> Oh that's a boy? I hadnt even noticed. I still...dont really care. Kids play dress up.
1412[22:50] <@corvusmalus> with even that daily mail, i meant the title of the article: "Super dad! Liev Schreiber treats his sons to Comic-Con as they don character costumes before reuniting with mom Naomi Watts" 
1413[22:50] <UKDivided> guys and women dress as the other gender for fun all the time
1414[22:51] <HydroponicFunBags> Yeah, seriously, every halloween at my school a boy would dress as a cheerleader or some other girl for fun
1415[22:51] <HydroponicFunBags> This isnt really new.
1416[22:51] <UKDivided> now if you want to say that's how he sends the kid to school? well you might have a better case
1417[22:52] <Don`Quixote> ya know, the more that people get used to people other people dressing odd, the sooner they get over that of it bothering them and it becomes a norm, so its not all bad.
1418[22:52] <UKDivided> there are always limnal times and places where norm violation is allowed
141900[22:52] <04dataman> UKDivided its a precursor
142000[22:52] <04dataman> its cool now to be tranny
1421[22:52] <UKDivided> Don`Quixote: I doubt it'll ever be a norm
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1423[22:53] <UKDivided> trans folks be statistical frequency are not "norm-al"
1424[22:53] <UKDivided> by*
1425[22:53] <@corvusmalus> lol, the mirror is: http://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrity-news/hollywood-star-liev-schrieber-49-10855416 like the mail, 
1426[22:53] <+gonzobot> Title: Hollywood star Liev Schreiber, 49, shows off his son's VERY cool costumes at Comic Con - Mirror Online
1427[22:53] <HydroponicFunBags> Why does a trend bother you so much dataman? All it means is we have a more free and open society, that people feel safe enough to experiment with gender and sexuality in whatever way they want without fear of being killed over it.
1428[22:53] <Don`Quixote> hey, dyed and colored hair is quite common now, as well as mohawks and the like.
1429[22:53] <@corvusmalus> bunt the inquisitr: http://www.inquisitr.com/4386012/liev-schreiber-shocks-world-by-bringing-son-to-comic-con-dressed-as-harley-quinn/
1430[22:53] <+gonzobot> Title: Liev Schreiber Shocks World By Bringing Son To Comic-Con Dressed As Harley Quinn
1431[22:53] <Don`Quixote> people get used to seeing it
1432[22:53] <UKDivided> HydroponicFunBags: because it's a norm he doesn't like being undermined
1433[22:54] <HydroponicFunBags> "shocks the world" lol rly
1434[22:54] <HydroponicFunBags> Yeah but I don't really get why UKdivded. It doesn't hurt anyone. I am against hormone therapy in children, for example, I think they need to wait for adulthood before undertaking such a huge decision that can permanently alter you.
1435[22:54] <HydroponicFunBags> But this other stuff?
1436[22:54] <HydroponicFunBags> Whats the harm?
1437[22:55] <HydroponicFunBags> If they actually arent trans, they will grow out of it. If they are trans, it's nice that we are providing a safe society for them to be who they are.
1438[22:55] <UKDivided> well I can give you my strongest defence of the position if you'd like, if you'll accept that I don't hold to all of the points underlying it...
1439[22:56] <UKDivided> a devils translator if you will
1440[22:56] <HydroponicFunBags> Is it some gist of undermining the family unit which certain people blame for a "breakdown of society?" Surely there must be a better one than that.
1441[22:56] <@corvusmalus> HydroponicFunBags, but this is not about trans at all - if you want to compare it to something in the adult world, it is just like carneval, theater or drag...
1442[22:57] <HydroponicFunBags> yeah, I know and understand the comic con context corvusmalus, I veered into trans because thats what dataman made it about.
1443[22:57] <UKDivided> HydroponicFunBags: will you accept the terms of my debate because I'm about to wander into some very iffy territory about which I'm not certain personally
1444[22:57] <HydroponicFunBags> Yeah go for it UKdivided, I wont judge.
1445[22:57] <UKDivided> well this isn't judgement as saying this isn't "my position" as such
1446[22:57] <UKDivided> I just understand the thinking
1447[22:57] <HydroponicFunBags> yeah, i understand
1448[22:57] <Don`Quixote> why do we want to shove our own ignorance upon those children just because we dont like how they dressed?
1449[22:58] <HydroponicFunBags> Convenient scapegoat, don. Thats all i see it as anyway.
1450[22:58] <UKDivided> firstly you start with the idea that the gender binary norm, is incredibly "true" only a vanishingly small fraction of the population are trans
1451[22:58] <UKDivided> this isn't like gay people who are a couple of percent, it's fractions of percet
1452[22:59] <HydroponicFunBags> I think when it comes to teaching morality in children the focus should be on anti-violence, not doing harm to others, helping people, etc. If you teach a child those tenants, traversing the nuances of human sexuality becomes safer and easier.
1453[22:59] <UKDivided> HydroponicFunBags: let me get the point out before you muddy my water
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1455[23:00] <HydroponicFunBags> sorry UKdivided
1456[23:00] <HydroponicFunBags> continue
1457[23:00] <UKDivided> when you are socialising children you need to give them base norms before you start to introduce time when those norms can be broken...you don't start by telling your kids that "sometimes violence is right" you say "violence is wrong" and then once you get that done you deal with the exceptions as and when you get teachable moments
1458[23:01] <Don`Quixote> I think life is a journey, your destiny your own, you only live once in all of eternity, these moments in time are yours. make them count and be happy.
1459[23:01] <jerkstate> i think trans is trendy so a lot of people are experimenting withit
1460[23:01] <Don`Quixote> its the little things that make a diferance.