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12018-03-16 17:22:45 (UTC) - <irish> @here @Mods 
2The problem: Based on our community poll there is a minority of users that would like #cuteposting-sfw to be very strictly SFW, meaning no ecchi and the content posted should be limited to only very cutesy kind of pictures. We know this is true based on interviews we've had with these people, and we also know that this minority is very vocal based on problems we've had with them in the past.
3
4The proposed solution: This one was proposed by Aristocrat so if I get it a little bit wrong he can clarify. However the proposal on the table as stands is to create a ``#cuteposting-casual`` channel, which would be opt-in (hidden on default, users would need to request a role in order to see it). This channel would be, according to Aristocrat, simply a cuteposting channel for people who do not want to see ecchi. This channel would not necessarily be permanent and can be killed off due to inactivity if we ever desire after seeing how effective it is. The current ruleset in #cuteposting-sfw would __**NOT**__ be changed at all.
5
6The reasoning: This proposal will __not__ harm users of either #cuteposting-sfw or #lewd-nsfw due to the opt-in nature of the channel, as well as the fact that we would make no changes to either channel. However, it would give us the benefit of both pleasing the users who want no ecchi content in cuteposting, or if they are not pleased, convincing them that the changes are bad and therefore silencing any further arguments. This system could also potentially help us gather data to see if this sort of solution is effective for other channels where problems with content posted may exist (like #lewd-nsfw).
72018-03-16 17:22:46 (UTC) - <irish> I would also like to make a personal request that those who are against the implementation of this new channel list off __*tangible harms*__ that come from implementing it. I would not like to hear arguments that boil down to "we don't need it" because I think we're already aware that this isn't a *necessary* change, but rather one that would be beneficial.
8
9===
10
11Please keep your responses to the minimum number of messages until everyone has had a chance to reply.
122018-03-16 17:25:11 (UTC) - <Zofi (Thiena)> I would like to mention that if we do decide to do this, we could state that we made it opt-in to placate the users who voted to keep the status quo, since nothing would change for them at all
132018-03-16 17:25:20 (UTC) - <Zofi (Thiena)> so it wouldn't look like we completely ignored them
142018-03-16 17:33:15 (UTC) - <Genki> Ok i'll try to take position: lets be real, we don't actually need a more advanced and specific cuter-er channel for images, making more channels is kind of like giving up on a solution and going the easy road, i think we should just iron fist-y ecchi into cuteposting because that isn't lewd enough for lewd, people are too prude and all of this started because people think a 2D girl in bikini should go in lewd instead of cute. 
15I say we hold the position and simply leave everything exactly how we have it
162018-03-16 17:35:12 (UTC) - <Zofi (Thiena)> I would agree with the iron fisting so long as we can ban the regular whiners
172018-03-16 17:46:00 (UTC) - <[GOML] Thiena (Zofi)> Forgive me phoneposting.
18It isnt necessary but sure, trial run it to show its going to not work most likely.
19From another experience;
20Kongou server have the same posters in their sfw channel. Granted, its a small casual server. Sometimes they post forbidden ankle reveals or whatever or bikinis or handholding there, but they actually do their effort to post super explicit stuff (or nudity) in their NSFW channel.
21Our cuteposting does that same amount of effort (I believe).
22I had only a single case where a lurker asked me to help them not view a channel. Said they didnt like lewd but they just lurked and never said much else and stuff so... (Kongou Server, not hisouten)
23Alternatively, tell them to post their own cute stuff.
24~~is it that hard to ignore stuff?~~
252018-03-16 17:54:39 (UTC) - <SQD | Tessiro> apparently so
262018-03-16 17:55:02 (UTC) - <SQD | Tessiro> tell em to man up
272018-03-16 17:55:10 (UTC) - <SQD | Tessiro> not every group of whiners needs to get their way
282018-03-16 19:53:33 (UTC) - <ZeroFuse> I will try to summarize everything I have said up until now, and then expand upon my thoughts. I recognize the issue and find the aforementioned solution to be an acceptable one, but am hesistant to go through with it because of how I feel about the server *needing* this sort of channel. The things the new cuteposting channel would solve out-number the tangible problems spawned from its creation. The good things it does is cater to the minority that does not wish to see ecchi posting in their channel, reduces the occurance of arguments over image content, and gives mods leeway to redirect users who whine about ecchi content to the new channel. The downside is that this is basically just mods doing what whiners want. If we do this sort of thing for the cuteposting channel, it's possible that we may be hassled again to create a new channel for alt. lewd enthusiasts or other channel based arguments. Because of that, the non-tangible (subjective) harm is that the channel may succeed and become popular enough to warrent a permanent slot which may encourage more channel requests (more things I would personally consider an unecessary addition to the server and its reputation). It's not that I'm judgemental towards alt. lewds, but it comes off as unprofessional and it may hurt the server's growth (especially doing things like making announcements with polls pertaining to alt. lewd fetishes). We are a Soku based server with Soku community based channels, not the community's personal media feed. If such channels are proving to be detrimental, I am in no way against deleting the channels.
292018-03-16 19:54:42 (UTC) - <ZeroFuse> The only other solution I can think of to appease the minority is change our policy on not safe for work content. As I've said in the past, what I define as "nsfw" is **much** more strict than the average user, and while it may be more accurate on paper, it is ultimately *not* what this community is looking for (based on our most recent poll). The proposed solution in question aims to express that message, and while it may be effective, I cannot help but question the morality of it. I do not wish to create a channel that is "doomed to fail" so as to punish the vocal minority. 
30
31A lot of the arguments in cuteposting channel up until now have been over what's ecchi and what's lewd. If we somehow found a way to effectively move ecchi posting into lewd channel, we would upset the new minority that doesn't want to view lewds alongside the ecchi posts. It's another small demographic, but it is there. We would then have to iron out extra rules for what we allow in the lewd-nsfw channel. From what I've seen, we already disallow urine and scat from being posted, and since we *want* this to be used as a containment channel, we could always expand upon our server's lewd channel policies.
322018-03-16 19:55:49 (UTC) - <ZeroFuse> Tl;dr: Go through with the proposed solution ***if*** we are in favor of it, and you can accept no other options.
332018-03-16 21:24:49 (UTC) - <Aristocrat> I do not agree with the viewpoints of "but we don't *need* it", "but the group of whiners will get their way", and "but we're catering to a minority". 
34
35#soku-beginner userbase is a minority. #oj userbase is a minority. #cuteposting-sfw and #lewd-nsfw userbases are minorities. We also don't *need* any channel that isn't soku channels, but keeping them around is generally beneficial to keeping the users hanging around. 
36
37Tessiro, you are the only person who wants #fighting-games to be default, can we categorize you as a whiner and say you don't need to get your way? 
38
39There is no problem with catering to a minority, if it doesn't present a problem for everyone else. The group of people who are complaining about #cuteposting-sfw aren't using the channel because they find it too lewd, so diverting them somewhere else won't have any diluting effect on the content being posted. The users who voted 3⃣ will not notice anything has changed, while the users who voted 1⃣ and 2⃣ will get what they want. 
40
41If it works, great. If it doesn't, complaints stop. It's a win-win situation.
422018-03-17 00:19:34 (UTC) - <Zim> I'm not against the idea of doing a trial run for this channel, as it would satisfy the complaints of the ones who are being vocal as well as prove a point if the channel does not work (and if it does well problem solved). However, a concern of mine is a possible precedent set for complaining enough to get new channels made or doing unecessary trial runs when it is clear there aren't that many users that would use it. Another concern is the  question of "what is ecchi vs cute" when enforcing rules (which feels somewhat ambiguous to me) similar to how cuteposting already is.
432018-03-17 00:46:06 (UTC) - <Zofi (Thiena)> we already have the precedent of complaining enough to get what you want because of sylian
442018-03-17 01:06:58 (UTC) - <ZeroFuse> You're right Aristo, we already have a history of doing things for the minority and it hasn't been so bad. Perhaps I felt differently about the art posting channels because I didn't want to see an entire category dedicated to different art, I just personally felt that's not what this server was for. I am curious to see whether or not you agree on my other statements like the servers reputation or alternative solution but ultimately it is unrelated to this proposal. If you want to create the channel, I won't stop it. And should the situation arise where people continue to request new channels because of this, we'll just treat it as a case by case scenario.
452018-03-17 17:11:39 (UTC) - <SQD | Tessiro> I wouldn't put those cases in the same group as this one
462018-03-17 17:15:12 (UTC) - <SQD | Tessiro> Bringing up fg's was a community move
472018-03-17 17:18:11 (UTC) - <SQD | Tessiro> It was already the most popular opt-in channel
482018-03-18 19:43:09 (UTC) - <irish> @here If anyone hasn't had a chance to respond yet and wish to partake in this discussion, please do so. Otherwise we'll soon move to the open discussion/voting phase of this proposal (and honestly I'd rather not take votes from people who haven't participated in the channel discussion (which isn't something i have the power to deny but still. ))
492018-03-18 19:43:44 (UTC) - <DragonDragon> more channels no problem
502018-03-18 19:50:17 (UTC) - <Nyttyn> mmmmmmmmmm i think i might agree with zerofuse's concerns here if this was another fgc like street fighter but i think it kind of misses the whole 'this is touhou' aspect, and a huge part of touhou is media. so it stands to reason this sort of stuff is just gonna come part and parcel with any touhou server, especially larger ones like ours. and i dont think one new channel being made is gonna egg people on to ask for a billion more, otherwise we'd have gotten requests after the pofv channel was made  (which is a shining example of a minroity asking for something). anyone who wants a channel for minor containment can just kinda take a hike if they do choose to bug us about it though, since the entire reason for even trying this would be that it's A) a significant departure from a existing channel's purpose and B) caters to enough of a minority to possibly be successufl.
512018-03-18 22:59:04 (UTC) - <SpikeSpiegel> Personally I would consider looking in a strictly non-lewd cuteposting from time to time. Or definitely would have done 3-5 years ago, because I had <http://konachan.com/post?tags=touhou%20rating:s> which worked fine (though I'd still only risk it out of work). Now I think I don't really care; and I honestly don't get why people try and shove stuff on discord. You can just link something if you want to discuss. You could even just disable embeds and have people mark things as (N)SFW. Then precious snowflakes can click or not click.
52
53Anyway. On the grounds of having the channel I'll repeat my former envisaged outcome:
54
55* You make an opt-in channel that will need policing (do we have people willing to do that?)
56* Those few may opt in to it.
57* However there will not be enough people using it.
58  - The majority (who don't care) will use the publicly visible one where they will post most SFW and (presumably all) NSFW content.
59* Original complaining users will still be unhappy.
60  - The content they want to see will still have to be dodged around things they don't want to see.
61* New people will use the publicly visible one.
62  - They won't ever know the other one exists because it isn't visible. 
63  - Sure you could post its existence somewhere, but that would require people reading.
64  - In a month or so most who didn't opt-in to the "safe" channel will probably have forgotten all about its existence anyway.
65
66IMHO disabling embeds and just making people say (or allowing reactions to rate, but that would probably be trolled and abused) is a better solution, but I doubt it would go down well.
672018-03-23 03:52:07 (UTC) - <irish> @here @Mods I think everyone has said what they wanted to say here.
68
69A lot of people feel that "this mod proposal isn't so bad that it's worth voting against but it's also not good enough to really vote for." Thus, because this is merely a trial that is being proposed, I'm going to structure the vote in the following way.
70
71Anyone AGAINST the creation of #cuteposting-casual, vote 1⃣. Anyone NOT AGAINST the creation of #cuteposting-casual, vote 2⃣. (Voting two does not mean support, just lack of opposition.)
72Message reactions:
732⃣ Zim, Aristocrat, Fear Nagae, Freudia, irish, CoDS | MFahim, Nyttyn, SpikeSpiegel, SQD | Tessiro, DragonDragon, [GOML] Thiena (Zofi), ZeroFuse, Zofi (Thiena)
741⃣ Genki
752018-03-23 03:53:09 (UTC) - <irish> Thiena abstaining doesn't make sense
762018-03-23 03:53:14 (UTC) - <irish> abstaining is the same as not being against
772018-03-23 03:53:30 (UTC) - <irish> i'd just count 3 votes as 2 votes
782018-03-23 03:53:31 (UTC) - <[GOML] Thiena (Zofi)> Oh, so 2 is basically my 'abstain and I don't mind'.
792018-03-23 03:53:37 (UTC) - <irish> err
802018-03-23 03:53:39 (UTC) - <[GOML] Thiena (Zofi)> err
812018-03-23 03:53:39 (UTC) - <irish> 3 votes as 2 votes
822018-03-23 03:53:41 (UTC) - <irish> yes, youre right
832018-03-23 03:53:46 (UTC) - <[GOML] Thiena (Zofi)> Alright.
842018-03-23 03:54:08 (UTC) - <[GOML] Thiena (Zofi)> you just shot down 1 now.
852018-03-23 03:54:25 (UTC) - <irish> zim unvoted for it so i guess he wanted more time to think, and im voting 2 personally
862018-03-23 03:54:34 (UTC) - <Zim> No I just ticked the wrong one tbh
872018-03-23 03:54:44 (UTC) - <irish> oh, thiena can you vote for 2 so i can remove 3?
882018-03-23 03:54:49 (UTC) - <Zim> :GWnanamiGuriDumb:
892018-03-23 03:54:55 (UTC) - <Fear Nagae> because usually against is [2] I almost clicked wrong
902018-03-23 03:55:08 (UTC) - <Fear Nagae> fortunately i finally read something
912018-03-23 03:55:08 (UTC) - <Zim> Yeah thats what got me
922018-03-23 03:55:10 (UTC) - <irish> thats why i just did 1 and 2 lol
932018-03-23 03:55:27 (UTC) - <irish> cause i wanted to make sure the numbers assigned didnt mean a position in particular
942018-03-23 03:55:32 (UTC) - <irish> but i guess they did anyway 🤷
952018-03-23 09:07:11 (UTC) - <irish> @DragonDragon @Genki @Hazelyn @SQD | Tessiro don't forget to vote
962018-03-23 09:07:48 (UTC) - <CoDS | MFahim> their voites wont change the outcome
972018-03-23 09:08:00 (UTC) - <CoDS | MFahim> xd
982018-03-23 09:08:08 (UTC) - <irish> yeah, and i will end it in like half a day if they dont vote because of that
992018-03-23 09:08:15 (UTC) - <irish> but im just giving them a chance
1002018-03-23 13:08:54 (UTC) - <Genki> 🤔
1012018-03-23 13:09:04 (UTC) - <Genki> voted 1 but man is it useless
1022018-03-23 13:09:13 (UTC) - <Genki> I guess we gonna see if it works
1032018-03-23 13:09:19 (UTC) - <Genki> so people may shutup
1042018-03-23 13:15:00 (UTC) - <irish> well at this point its just missing hazelyn
1052018-03-23 13:15:10 (UTC) - <irish> and she never weighed in on this so im just gonna assume she doesnt care