3QvKTbPD

1Nov 06 07:55:17 <Fulvus>	The fuck does this mean? https://wikileaks.org/dnc-emails/emailid/7036
2Nov 06 07:55:19 <_>	[ WikiLeaks - Search the DNC email database ] - wikileaks.org
3Nov 06 07:58:41 <VereorNox>	Probably something lewd.
4Nov 06 08:00:43 <Fulvus>	It seems pretty blatant that "lollipop" is a euphamism for something, the guy even put it in quotations himself all cheekily. This email is disturbing.
5Nov 06 08:02:17 *	EllardyAway (uid178344@charlton.irccloud.com) has joined
6Nov 06 08:02:38 <Brut>	The guy is a woman
7Nov 06 08:05:16 <Fulvus>	My mistake, didn't parse Leah as a female name for some reason. The explanation I found is that they just call lollipops rehearsed speeches for media outlets, but it doesn't make sense that they'd mention bringing it home. That's bizarre.
8Nov 06 08:08:11 <Hierophant>	I don't think it's ethical to read the emails that people send between each other
9Nov 06 08:10:17 <Fulvus>	They're leaked. They aren't going to be unleaked.
10Nov 06 08:10:38 <Hierophant>	That doesn't mean people should read them
11Nov 06 08:10:55 <Hierophant>	If your sister leaves her diary lying on the table you shouldn't go and peek just because it's out in the open
12Nov 06 08:12:04 <Fulvus>	It's not ethical to spy through the window of someone's house either, but if the curtains are open and there's a murder going on you wouldn't say it should be ignored for being none of your business.
13Nov 06 08:12:37 <Hierophant>	except there's no murder going on
14Nov 06 08:12:48 <Hierophant>	and if there was it's not your responsibility to stand there and gawk, call the police and let them handle it
15Nov 06 08:13:09 <Fulvus>	If something is already open knowledge, willful ignorance is not the "ethical" choice. It's simply the willful ignorant choice.
16Nov 06 08:13:23 <Hierophant>	The FBI is already looking into everything, no idea why jane and joe busybody feel they have to as well
17Nov 06 08:13:38 <VereorNox>	Because people want more transparency in politics?
18Nov 06 08:13:49 <Hierophant>	transparency is bad, I'll explain why after my game
19Nov 06 08:13:58 <Brut>	Doesn't matter, people will look through them, they'll find nothing to convict her with, Wikileaks will have looked like a bunch of tools
20Nov 06 08:14:06 <Brut>	Just give it a few months
21Nov 06 08:14:30 <Fulvus>	Wikileaks is not a political organization, Brut. They do not have a stance on the election.
22Nov 06 08:14:44 <Brut>	I really doubt that
23Nov 06 08:15:04 <Fulvus>	They're not "tools" for publishing truthful information without even making a judgement on them.
24Nov 06 08:16:04 <Fulvus>	Since when did divulging info become a reason to call someone a fucking tool? Just because you don't like the facts? I understand saying people freaking out about the emails is stupid, but Wikileaks is in no way to blame for simply making info available.
25Nov 06 08:17:25 <Brut>	Because people have been acting like dropping a bunch of emails suddenly makes it certain that they're all damaging
26Nov 06 08:17:54 <VereorNox>	That's people, not wikileaks.
27Nov 06 08:18:37 <Fulvus>	The day someone simply publishing unbiased info gets labelled a "tool" is the day we have people so complacent and brainwashed that they'd prefer to just be kept in the dark. You're literally reacting with anger to the availablity of information.
28Nov 06 08:19:02 <Peng_>	Fulvus: Who do you believe has a right to privacy? And who doesn't?
29Nov 06 08:19:55 <Fulvus>	This isn't about the right to privacy. This is about whether or not we should ignore available information because it does not positively reinforce our politically beliefs.
30Nov 06 08:20:03 <Peng_>	This conversation would be entirely valid, but sound way worse, if y'all were talking about the celebrity nude photo hack.
31Nov 06 08:20:36 <Brut>	"Nothing to hide, nothing to fear" sounds a little fucked up to me
32Nov 06 08:21:12 <Fulvus>	I'll condemn the hacking of emails, that's wrong. But once they're out there, they're fucking out there. Don't make this about the patriot act or some shit because that'd be easier to argue against, please.
33Nov 06 08:22:48 <Peng_>	Zeynep Tufekci just wrote something in the New York Times on this subject, but i haven't read it
34Nov 06 08:23:45 <Brut>	http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/05/opinion/what-were-missing-while-we-obsess-over-john-podestas-email.html
35Nov 06 08:23:47 <Brut>	This one?
36Nov 06 08:24:40 *	Verlotorium (Verlotorium@net-lmtltp.res.rr.com) has left
37Nov 06 08:24:58 <Peng_>	Probably
38Nov 06 08:25:33 <Fulvus>	It is.
39Nov 06 08:30:50 *	Notify: Mishie is offline (Parahumans)
40Nov 06 08:30:50 *	Mishie has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
41Nov 06 08:31:41 <FossIsWorking>	hey peng what is with all those other pengs?
42Nov 06 08:33:41 <Fulvus>	I don't really respect her opinion very much as a Sociologist, mainly because she's a qualitiative researcher that doesn't even bother coming up with a two-sided argument for her positions. She does have a point, but it's a biased point with no data backing it up when there really should be data for this matter.
43Nov 06 08:33:44 <Peng>	FossIsWorking: Redundancy. :D
44Nov 06 08:34:21 <Peng_>	Fulvus: It's an opinion piece...
45Nov 06 08:34:53 <Fulvus>	She says there are negative outcomes that come from these kinds of leaks, which I may theoretically agree with, but she doesn't define what those outcomes are, and we can't verify what she means. All the article means is that she doesn't like something.
46Nov 06 08:35:39 <Brut>	But she did
47Nov 06 08:36:02 <Brut>	For example she said people in Middle Eastern countries have been outed as rape victims or gay
48Nov 06 08:36:11 <Brut>	As collateral damage of the leaks
49Nov 06 08:38:27 <Fulvus>	She's a Sociologist, Peng. I'm a Sociology major in college. Forgive me if I take the methods she uses a little too seriously because she represents my little branch.
50Nov 06 08:38:32 <FossIsWorking>	I now inflict adam ruins everything on you nerds
51Nov 06 08:38:37 <FossIsWorking>	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnslqy41qjg
52Nov 06 08:38:38 <_>	[ Adam Ruins Everything S01 Special The Adam Ruins Everything Election Special - YouTube ] - www.youtube.com
53Nov 06 08:39:31 <FossIsWorking>	and Fulvusis in the right here, electorate polarize!
54Nov 06 08:39:42 *	Notify: Mishie is online (Parahumans)
55Nov 06 08:40:48 <Brut>	What?
56Nov 06 08:41:35 <FossIsWorking>	making a joke
57Nov 06 08:41:40 *	Lexicon has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
58Nov 06 08:41:44 *	FossIsWorking is now known as FossilLord
59Nov 06 08:41:56 <FossilLord>	finaly done with work
60Nov 06 08:41:59 <Fulvus>	That's not a definition, Brut. That's just a cherry picked example of something most people wouldn't like, which wouldn't necessarily be a problem if it was two-sided argument instead of an opinion piece.
61Nov 06 08:42:03 <Hierophant>	Okay so I'm back
62Nov 06 08:42:20 <Hierophant>	basically transparency is bad because it sets a bad precedent if any idiot off the street can question and scrutinize the higher ups
63Nov 06 08:42:29 <Hierophant>	Fosters alck of turst
64Nov 06 08:43:02 <VereorNox>	What you're suggesting would mean blindly trusting. Two extremes. 
65Nov 06 08:43:24 <Fulvus>	I'm not even saying she's wrong on this, I just dislike Sociologists publishing biased and opinioninated info because that reflects poorly on the discipline, which should be impartial.
66Nov 06 08:43:25 *	PassedFaust shoves his head in the sand
67Nov 06 08:44:05 <Brut>	It's opinionated because she's giving her opinion.
68Nov 06 08:44:09 <Brut>	It's not a study
69Nov 06 08:44:10 <VereorNox>	People elected into high positions with control over major governmental offices should be held to a higher standard than others. If leaks, unethical or not, prove they are not, that lack of trust is not unfounded, it's what they deserve. 
70Nov 06 08:44:15 <VereorNox>	Yo PassedFaust 
71Nov 06 08:44:38 <Fulvus>	As for whether transparency is good or bad, it's not a binary. There are good and bad parts, but I'd argue that blind faith in the upper strata from the masses is much more dangerous than wanton skeppticism for a free society.
72Nov 06 08:44:39 *	Xepheria (Josiah@net-kt9tbh.range86-177.btcentralplus.com) has joined
73Nov 06 08:45:17 <Fulvus>	Guess what's also an opinion, Brut? Mine.
74Nov 06 08:45:18 <PassedFaust>	I'm sorry, I shouldn't be politicking drunk. Yo Vern. 
75Nov 06 08:45:34 <Brut>	I think Hiero is saying you have to have some qualification to be able to seriously criticize some of these decisions
76Nov 06 08:45:42 <Brut>	Beyond just having an opinion
77Nov 06 08:46:00 <PassedFaust>	I disagree, see movie critics
78Nov 06 08:46:02 <Hierophant>	Such as being the director of the FBI
79Nov 06 08:46:07 <Hierophant>	whose job it is to analyze the emails and stuff
80Nov 06 08:46:08 <Hierophant>	:P
81Nov 06 08:46:10 <Fulvus>	This isn't an argument, I'm just expressing that I don't like it because she represents my field of study poorly. Going back to transparency, again, it's not a binary.
82Nov 06 08:46:14 <Hierophant>	Leave it to him instead of poiking your own nose into it
83Nov 06 08:46:47 <Brut>	I wouldn't even leave it to him, given his behaviour 
84Nov 06 08:46:56 <Brut>	He's shown himself to be partisan
85Nov 06 08:47:01 <VereorNox>	^
86Nov 06 08:47:03 <Hierophant>	Him & his agents
87Nov 06 08:47:42 <Fulvus>	If things aren't transparent to some degree, people with qualifications ALSO can't get access to it. *OR* the only people who are qualified to review the information are people designated with approval, which reinforces the notion that the only people with access to the info are people who are motivated to keep dirt hidden.
88Nov 06 08:48:01 <Fulvus>	Which does not a free society make.
89Nov 06 08:48:39 <Hierophant>	I have no interest in a free society
90Nov 06 08:48:40 <Hierophant>	at all
91Nov 06 08:48:43 <Hierophant>	not the way you mean it
92Nov 06 08:48:57 <Hierophant>	I want a society that lives in harmony, structure and trust
93Nov 06 08:49:22 <Brut>	Well I mean, most of us do
94Nov 06 08:49:25 <Hierophant>	Like, a society that has people randomly grabbing and spilling secrets and just acting like they know shit
95Nov 06 08:49:28 <Hierophant>	is not a society I want to live in
96Nov 06 08:49:41 <VereorNox>	Define harmony, structure and trust.
97Nov 06 08:49:55 <VereorNox>	Because co-existence between two political sides is unlikely, so begone harmony.
98Nov 06 08:50:14 <VereorNox>	Agreement with either side of the spectrum just because they're currently the ruling party does not make a harmonious society.
99Nov 06 08:50:14 <Brut>	Two political sides was a mistake
100Nov 06 08:50:19 <VereorNox>	And trust is something to be earned.
101Nov 06 08:50:23 <Hierophant>	Yeah, just have one side
102Nov 06 08:50:28 <Fulvus>	You make it really hard not to just call you a fascist and be done with it, Hiero.
103Nov 06 08:50:33 <Brut>	That's not what I meant Hiero...
104Nov 06 08:50:37 <VereorNox>	That's ridiculous, Brut, Hierophant.
105Nov 06 08:50:43 <Hierophant>	And you make it realy hard not to just call you an anarchist :\
106Nov 06 08:50:46 <VereorNox>	Who do you decide is the 'right' side?
107Nov 06 08:50:53 <Brut>	I'm not agreeing with Hiero, Vern
108Nov 06 08:51:00 <Hierophant>	the liberals
109Nov 06 08:51:04 <Hierophant>	we know trump isn't right
110Nov 06 08:51:04 <Brut>	I was going to say they're should be more sides
111Nov 06 08:51:09 <Fulvus>	Well, I don't support the two party system either, but I sure as fuck don't agree with a one party system. That's even worse.
112Nov 06 08:51:10 <Brut>	*there
113Nov 06 08:51:11 <VereorNox>	This isn't about the US, Hierophant
114Nov 06 08:51:11 <Hierophant>	That just causes more fracturing brute
115Nov 06 08:51:17 <VereorNox>	This is about society in general
116Nov 06 08:51:22 <Brut>	Is it Hiero?
117Nov 06 08:51:28 <Brut>	We have several large parties in Canada
118Nov 06 08:51:30 <VereorNox>	See, the conservatives would disagree with you, Hierophant
119Nov 06 08:51:34 <Brut>	As do many other countries
120Nov 06 08:51:36 <VereorNox>	"The liberals are the wrong side"
121Nov 06 08:51:42 <VereorNox>	Welcome to fractioned unharminous politics.
122Nov 06 08:51:47 <VereorNox>	Because people disagree, and guess what
123Nov 06 08:51:51 *	Divock has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client)
124Nov 06 08:51:52 <VereorNox>	People have the right to disagree
125Nov 06 08:52:02 <Hierophant>	well, I agree with that
126Nov 06 08:52:06 <Brut>	We have four major parties
127Nov 06 08:52:09 <Hierophant>	But the way I see it is that the liberals should just win and be done with it
128Nov 06 08:52:12 <VereorNox>	If we only had one side, there would be no right to disagree
129Nov 06 08:52:15 <VereorNox>	You couldn't elect the lesser evil
130Nov 06 08:52:19 <VereorNox>	I repeat, Hierophant 
131Nov 06 08:52:20 <Brut>	Middle right, middle left, more left, farther left
132Nov 06 08:52:21 <PassedFaust>	Hierophant: I disagree 
133Nov 06 08:52:24 <VereorNox>	This is. not. About. The. US.
134Nov 06 08:52:32 <VereorNox>	This is about society in general. Every country, no matter which.
135Nov 06 08:52:40 <Hierophant>	Right, I get what you're talking about.
136Nov 06 08:52:50 <Hierophant>	What I mean is that what use do you see in the existence of political parties you know are wrong
137Nov 06 08:53:00 <PassedFaust>	I disagree
138Nov 06 08:53:06 <VereorNox>	If there's a democracy, people should have the right to choose, who are you to demand only one party is the correct one? You're not qualified to make that assumption.
139Nov 06 08:53:15 <Brut>	And Hiero, there may come a time where I actually agree with a Republican candidate
140Nov 06 08:53:21 <Hierophant>	I'm not demanding anything
141Nov 06 08:53:24 <Hierophant>	i'm just saying what I think is right
142Nov 06 08:53:27 <Brut>	I don't think that possibility should be removed
143Nov 06 08:53:38 <Brut>	I just think the current one is a mistake
144Nov 06 08:53:46 <VereorNox>	You're not qualified to decide which party is wrong.
145Nov 06 08:53:49 <Brut>	Of monumentally stupid proportions
146Nov 06 08:54:07 <Hierophant>	Vern, you're interpreting this wrongly
147Nov 06 08:54:13 <Hierophant>	I'm saying what I think should be, not what I think is
148Nov 06 08:54:13 <PassedFaust>	I disagree
149Nov 06 08:54:34 <VereorNox>	And I'm saying I disagree with your thinking.
150Nov 06 08:54:34 <Hierophant>	I'm qualified to decide which party I personally think is wrong
151Nov 06 08:54:42 <PassedFaust>	Sure
152Nov 06 08:54:45 <Brut>	And Hiero, I think you may have a different view on this based on where you live
153Nov 06 08:54:47 <Fulvus>	I'm typing some long posts and then deleting them because the conversation pace is leaving me behind, so I'm just going to cop out and say I agree with Vereor 100%.
154Nov 06 08:54:55 <PassedFaust>	Same
155Nov 06 08:54:57 <VereorNox>	For example
156Nov 06 08:54:58 <Brut>	You know, where you can be executed for drug possession
157Nov 06 08:54:58 <VereorNox>	Look at Germany
158Nov 06 08:55:04 <VereorNox>	We have a shitload of parties
159Nov 06 08:55:11 <VereorNox>	Only two of them are right-wing, one of them extremist
160Nov 06 08:55:19 <VereorNox>	Well, two major ones
161Nov 06 08:55:24 <Hierophant>	Right, you hate the extremist party, right?
162Nov 06 08:55:28 <Hierophant>	Why not just get rid of them then?
163Nov 06 08:55:30 <VereorNox>	No I don't.
164Nov 06 08:55:36 <Hierophant>	It may be hard to actually do it, but they *should* disappear
165Nov 06 08:55:38 <Hierophant>	is what I'm saying
166Nov 06 08:55:40 <Brut>	Because some people want them
167Nov 06 08:55:40 <VereorNox>	I repeat, people have the right to choose.
168Nov 06 08:55:41 <Brut>	Hiero
169Nov 06 08:55:42 <Fulvus>	Who gets rid of them, Hiero?
170Nov 06 08:55:48 <Hierophant>	The other side, of coures.
171Nov 06 08:55:53 <PassedFaust>	Let's get rid of them, in camps
172Nov 06 08:55:54 <VereorNox>	The extremist party has been under scrutiny by the courts repeatedly
173Nov 06 08:56:02 <Brut>	You can't just tell people they're not aloud to have representatives 
174Nov 06 08:56:02 <VereorNox>	In multiple attempts to prove them unconstitutional
175Nov 06 08:56:03 <PassedFaust>	I hear that works
176Nov 06 08:56:04 <Hierophant>	Which is good! That's a sign of goodness.
177Nov 06 08:56:17 <VereorNox>	And guess what, in a free society, a party which does not comform with your views is not inherently unconstitutional.
178Nov 06 08:56:18 <Brut>	*allowed
179Nov 06 08:56:39 <Hierophant>	Right so I'm watching a stream and I'll come back to this later, it's hard to split my attention and I don't want to sound like I'm just fucking around or not taking this seriousyl
180Nov 06 08:56:54 <Brut>	Hiero, I don't think you understand
181Nov 06 08:56:59 <PassedFaust>	Political dissenters not conforming to the right opinion should be eliminated, I get you Hiero
182Nov 06 08:57:00 <Fulvus>	The only answer is "the government lead by the incumbent party" if you want it to make sense. Which QUICKLY devolves into suppressive dystopia, because that party is no longer incentivized to change, and it's also incentivized to crack down on dissent, as it's already set precedent for doing so.
183Nov 06 08:57:14 <Brut>	There needs to be more than one party, to keep the ruling one in check
184Nov 06 08:57:20 <Hierophant>	I trust the incumbent party not to turn into 1984 tbqh
185Nov 06 08:57:27 <Hierophant>	This is what I meant by having trust in the higher ups
186Nov 06 08:57:28 <Brut>	That's a bit too much trust
187Nov 06 08:57:31 <Hierophant>	The party can check itself?
188Nov 06 08:57:33 <Fulvus>	Way too much.
189Nov 06 08:58:01 <Hierophant>	I don't know, I don't like this cynical attitude where you assume everything other than perfect freedom is going to end in utter dystopia
190Nov 06 08:58:14 <Hierophant>	I'd like to think people are smart and good enough not to go overboard with stuff
191Nov 06 08:58:17 <Brut>	Has it worked yet?
192Nov 06 08:58:25 <Fulvus>	And no, groups don't do that by default. Groups reinforce. And you're advocating that people with dissident opinions literally not be allowed to run for office or garner support, so they seriously have no chance of evolving.
193Nov 06 08:58:28 <VereorNox>	This is neither cynism, nor is it what we said.
194Nov 06 08:58:47 <VereorNox>	I hold it true that people have the right to choose and to make mistakes.
195Nov 06 08:58:58 <VereorNox>	I do not hold it true that I, or anyone, has the right to decide who chooses right 
196Nov 06 08:59:18 <Brut>	Hiero, I despise the morons of the Republican party has much as the next liberal
197Nov 06 08:59:22 <Hierophant>	right
198Nov 06 08:59:32 <Brut>	But if they don't have a voice, that is not a government I would like to be part of
199Nov 06 08:59:34 <PassedFaust>	I don't know, I don't like this cynical attitude where you assume everything other than perfect control is going to end in utter dystopia
200Nov 06 09:00:01 <Fulvus>	There are some things that are NOT bianry (Whether or not transparency is good or bad.) and there are some things that are binary (Whether or not a one-party state would be hazardous to liberty.)
201Nov 06 09:00:18 <Hierophant>	PassedFaust: I never said anything about a dystopia
202Nov 06 09:00:27 <Hierophant>	But I do think perfect control would be a utopia, so of course I'd support it.
203Nov 06 09:00:27 <VereorNox>	[Nov 06 08:58:01] <Hierophant> I don't know, I don't like this cynical attitude where you assume everything other than perfect freedom is going to end in utter dystopia
204Nov 06 09:01:01 <Brut>	I don't know if you've read up on some "perfect controllers" of the last few millenia
205Nov 06 09:01:13 <PassedFaust>	I loved Mussolini 
206Nov 06 09:01:14 <Brut>	They also call those "tyrants"
207Nov 06 09:01:14 <Hierophant>	*with the caveat that the perfect controller isn't a fucking asshole
208Nov 06 09:01:28 <VereorNox>	Power corrupts.
209Nov 06 09:01:32 <VereorNox>	Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
210Nov 06 09:01:39 <VereorNox>	There is a reason we have term limits.
211Nov 06 09:01:43 <PassedFaust>	Lenin was pretty brotier 
212Nov 06 09:01:56 <Hierophant>	See, I don't agree with this. I think that there are people who are good and pure enough that they won't get corrupted.
213Nov 06 09:02:05 <Hierophant>	And for those people, it's trivial to just put them into power more or less forever
214Nov 06 09:02:09 <Brut>	And then Lenin died and his pal took over
215Nov 06 09:02:27 <Hierophant>	And like being better than Lenin or Stalin isn't exactly a high standard?
216Nov 06 09:02:33 <VereorNox>	Politics isn't about an extreme of goodness and good decisions, Hierophant
217Nov 06 09:02:42 <VereorNox>	Politics is about sacrifices and middlegrounds.
218Nov 06 09:02:57 <Brut>	How does forever work, Hiero?
219Nov 06 09:03:05 <Hierophant>	I disagree, Vern.
220Nov 06 09:03:13 <Hierophant>	Brut: I mean until the end of their life, the word was hyperbole
221Nov 06 09:03:18 <VereorNox>	People thought their ideal of goodness and perfect rulers was the king for a few hundred years
222Nov 06 09:03:22 <VereorNox>	Then people began cutting their heads off
223Nov 06 09:03:35 <VereorNox>	You know, the absolute monarch who was given his grace by god.
224Nov 06 09:03:40 <Hierophant>	The monarchy system is far from good and perfect
225Nov 06 09:03:41 <Hierophant>	:P
226Nov 06 09:03:43 <Fulvus>	being better than Stalin isn't hard, but a one party system is literally the only system in which people like Stalin can come to power and withhold power. You roll the dice with every leader, until eventually a bad egg is in power, and than nobody can do jack shit about it because their power is absolute.
227Nov 06 09:03:45 <Hierophant>	So it's weird to compare the two
228Nov 06 09:03:55 <PassedFaust>	Hierophant: Would you describe yourself as a fascist? Because that's what I'm getting
229Nov 06 09:04:01 <Brut>	Hiero, what is the government in Singapore?
230Nov 06 09:04:03 <Fulvus>	And because they have absolute power, nobody that disaggrees with them can take that power without a revolution.
231Nov 06 09:04:08 <VereorNox>	You're suggesting exactly that. One person who is absolute and perfect in every way (or so the perception goes), ruling until they die.
232Nov 06 09:04:21 <Hierophant>	Brut: What do you mean?
233Nov 06 09:04:34 <Hierophant>	Fulvus: You don't roll the dice, because each leader ensures the one afater him is good as well
234Nov 06 09:04:35 <Brut>	I'm guessing you have parties?
235Nov 06 09:04:38 <Hierophant>	That's one of the main responsibilities of the leader
236Nov 06 09:04:44 <Hierophant>	Not just in politics but in gneral
237Nov 06 09:05:07 <Fulvus>	That requires ZERO human fallibility to work, Hiero. Or else the trend will ALWAYS be downward.
238Nov 06 09:05:23 <Hierophant>	Brut: Yeah
239Nov 06 09:05:26 <Hierophant>	PAP is usually in power though
240Nov 06 09:05:30 <Hierophant>	they landslide every time
241Nov 06 09:07:47 <Hierophant>	Well, I agree with you on that, Fulvus.
242Nov 06 09:07:49 <Fulvus>	They also have nationalist rally's every year, caning is a lawful punishment, your speech laws are very strict (It's legal for them to purposefully inhibit political opposition.), the propaganda machine is in total control, and all citizens are required to serve a mandatory 2 years in the military.
243Nov 06 09:08:19 <Hierophant>	If we are to adopt my system, perfection is a requirement. Therefore, my system is the only system that would be applicable in a perfect world.
244Nov 06 09:08:19 <PassedFaust>	Kim Il Sung had some similar values. Have you studied his time as a leader? It's pretty enlightening.
245Nov 06 09:08:22 <Brut>	There's also the death sentence for drug possession 
246Nov 06 09:08:29 <Hierophant>	For something like a democracy, there's no way it would result in a utopia.
247Nov 06 09:08:55 <Hierophant>	Because one of the key values of democracy is to acknowledge human fallibility and it's designed around that
248Nov 06 09:09:54 <Hierophant>	So, while democracy is "an okay" system, there's no way we can reach the best possible world with something like democracy.
249Nov 06 09:10:01 <Hierophant>	It's not valid as an ideal.
250Nov 06 09:10:14 <Fulvus>	You have a multi-party system on paper, Hiero, but in practice it's a one-party system because the party in control has absolute power to censor dissent. Which is basically what you're advocating for, and in that context it makes perfect sense that you believe in that.
251Nov 06 09:10:24 <Fulvus>	But most people wouldn't be happy with that system.
252Nov 06 09:10:39 <PassedFaust>	Are you a fascist? I'm not saying that's bad, just curious.
253Nov 06 09:10:44 <Hierophant>	Well, I agree with what you just said Fulvus.
254Nov 06 09:10:52 <Hierophant>	PassedFaust: I'm not a fascist? I don't recommend killing dissidents
255Nov 06 09:11:02 <Hierophant>	That's what education is for :P
256Nov 06 09:11:03 <Brut>	You're at least an authoritarian 
257Nov 06 09:11:09 <PassedFaust>	But silencing them right?
258Nov 06 09:11:23 <Fulvus>	Unless they grew up consuming a steady stream of propaganda for that system (Not trying to ad hominem you here, but that's what it seems like is going on to me here.)
259Nov 06 09:11:54 <Hierophant>	Hmm, I would be fine saying that I'm an authoritarian. I believe that a healthy dose of authority and order is needed for a good society.
260Nov 06 09:12:00 <Brut>	Listen, I'm not naive enough to believe libertarianism is a realistic way of governing in the world we live in now
261Nov 06 09:12:13 <Brut>	But democracy is not something we should ever give up
262Nov 06 09:12:35 <Hierophant>	PassedFaust: No, not silencing them. I don't advocate tyranny.
263Nov 06 09:12:43 <Brut>	It is the lifeblood of the first world
264Nov 06 09:12:56 <PassedFaust>	Re-education? 
265Nov 06 09:13:04 <Hierophant>	I think that they should be corrected and *gently* educated as to why they're wrong.
266Nov 06 09:13:21 <Hierophant>	Order should not come at the expense of basic human decency
267Nov 06 09:13:26 <Brut>	That sounds like a constructed reality
268Nov 06 09:13:30 <Brut>	And it's kind of fucked
269Nov 06 09:13:36 <VereorNox>	Define wrong.
270Nov 06 09:13:38 <Fulvus>	Me and Brut are in accord on this. I'm a mega-libertarian fuck and we've had our differences (I'd argue that the only reason I seem so extreme is because I purposefully take an extreme stance in order to balance out what I perceive as a mostly liberal echo-chamber, but still.), but I'm on board with that 100%.
271Nov 06 09:13:46 <VereorNox>	because if you start 'correcting' people for your idea of 'wrongthink'
272Nov 06 09:13:56 <VereorNox>	Then welcome to tyranny 101, you didn't even realize you started.
273Nov 06 09:14:02 <Hierophant>	Well, yes, Brut, that's what politics is for. You construct an ideal reality to replace the current, flawed one
274Nov 06 09:14:18 <PassedFaust>	Reality is flawed
275Nov 06 09:14:25 <Hierophant>	Right, we agree on this.
276Nov 06 09:14:26 <PassedFaust>	Inherently
277Nov 06 09:14:36 <PassedFaust>	You can't fix it
278Nov 06 09:14:39 <Hierophant>	Therefore, it's good to create something ideal to "fix" reality. You catch my meaning?
279Nov 06 09:14:41 <Hierophant>	See, I think we can.
280Nov 06 09:14:49 <VereorNox>	People are flawed. People have the right to be flawed. People have the right to think something you disagree with without being sent to a correctional facility.
281Nov 06 09:14:53 <Brut>	You can't just say, "You're reality is flawed in my view, therefore we have to force you to accept ours"
282Nov 06 09:14:56 <Hierophant>	I don't see why we can't fix reality when we've been able to consistently improve it over the last thousands of years.
283Nov 06 09:14:59 <Brut>	That's not how debate works
284Nov 06 09:15:06 <Brut>	Or rational discussion
285Nov 06 09:15:19 <Brut>	*Your
286Nov 06 09:15:22 <VereorNox>	Who are you, or any political leader, to decide what a person is allowed to think as long as they don't break any basic human laws?
287Nov 06 09:15:38 <Hierophant>	I don't care what people think?
288Nov 06 09:15:48 <Hierophant>	People can diasgree with me as much as they like
289Nov 06 09:15:55 <Hierophant>	If they want to go on IRC and rant about how the liberals suck, that's fine by me.
290Nov 06 09:16:03 <PassedFaust>	You're being very naive, if we could find a perfect system then it would have been done by someone smarter than us before
291Nov 06 09:16:04 <Brut>	I'm a fucking liberal dude
292Nov 06 09:16:05 <Hierophant>	I don't advocate tyranny, Iv'e said this.
293Nov 06 09:16:13 <VereorNox>	You advocate fixing people's wrong thinking!
294Nov 06 09:16:18 <Hierophant>	Of course I'm being naive! You *must* be naive in order to get the best system! 
295Nov 06 09:16:25 <Hierophant>	brb
296Nov 06 09:20:02 <Fulvus>	Anyway, AI over-consciousness mandate best government.
297Nov 06 09:20:02 <PassedFaust>	I'm saying you're massively overestimating just how revolutionary your ideas are, have you read the Communist Manifesto, any of the works of John Locke, or The Prince? That may give you some perspective on differing systems.
298Nov 06 09:20:17 <PassedFaust>	Nothing is truly untried
299Nov 06 09:20:57 <Hierophant>	My ideas are far from revolutionary.
300Nov 06 09:21:05 <Hierophant>	I'm literally just parroting what other people are saying about trust, honor etc.
301Nov 06 09:21:38 <VereorNox>	People aren't arguing liberals suck, Hierophant
302Nov 06 09:21:41 <Hierophant>	I'm sure someone out there has tried my system - but just because they fail doesn't mean it's a bad system. It just means we have to do it better next time.
303Nov 06 09:21:43 <VereorNox>	I voted for the Left party last election
304Nov 06 09:21:47 <VereorNox>	Brut is liberal
305Nov 06 09:21:54 <Hierophant>	Right, we all agree that liberalism is good, right?
306Nov 06 09:21:58 <VereorNox>	No.
307Nov 06 09:22:00 <Fulvus>	No.
308Nov 06 09:22:02 <PassedFaust>	Not entirely
309Nov 06 09:22:02 <VereorNox>	Not all liberalism is good.
310Nov 06 09:22:02 <Hierophant>	????
311Nov 06 09:22:16 <Hierophant>	So you only support like some liberal ideas but not all of them?
312Nov 06 09:22:23 <PassedFaust>	Yes
313Nov 06 09:22:25 <Fulvus>	Yeah.
314Nov 06 09:22:29 <Brut>	Hiero, the point of having more than one party is so you can shift gears when necessary
315Nov 06 09:22:39 <PassedFaust>	That's how opinions work
316Nov 06 09:22:43 <VereorNox>	^
317Nov 06 09:22:47 <Hierophant>	What's the point of supporting the liberals then?
318Nov 06 09:22:48 <Brut>	When it's the right time, you vote a certain party
319Nov 06 09:22:52 <VereorNox>	I agree with our right-wing parties
320Nov 06 09:22:54 <VereorNox>	On the Euro
321Nov 06 09:22:57 <Hierophant>	Isn't that kind of wishy washy?
322Nov 06 09:23:06 <PassedFaust>	Because they agree with more of their policies
323Nov 06 09:23:10 <VereorNox>	Which is "The EU is pretty good, but the german mark was a better time"
324Nov 06 09:23:12 <PassedFaust>	Not all of them
325Nov 06 09:23:38 <VereorNox>	Meanwhile our left parties are all for lowering rents in cities so they remain affordable, but want to keep the Euro as it is
326Nov 06 09:23:58 <PassedFaust>	I agree with more of the conservative platform currently, so I support them as of now
327Nov 06 09:24:18 <Brut>	The biggest problem most have with the right, especially in the states, is the inclusion of all the religious baggage
328Nov 06 09:24:20 <PassedFaust>	You aren't choosing sides on a war
329Nov 06 09:24:31 <Hierophant>	But conservatives are going to continue supporting the same ideas, so you're never going to vote for the elft, Faust.
330Nov 06 09:24:41 <PassedFaust>	Not true at all
331Nov 06 09:24:51 <Fulvus>	I voted straight ticket democrat with the exception of Trump for president. Why? I tend to side liberal, BELIEVE IT OR NOT, I'm just skeptical of Hillary, straight up not believing she's in any way an ethical choice to the point I had to suck up my pride and do with the other guy.
332Nov 06 09:24:53 <Hierophant>	The way I see it is you should just pick the best people and vote them in
333Nov 06 09:24:57 <Fulvus>	I couldn't have done that under your system.
334Nov 06 09:25:02 <PassedFaust>	Parties change
335Nov 06 09:25:18 <PassedFaust>	The left of the past is the right of yoday
336Nov 06 09:25:25 <PassedFaust>	*today
337Nov 06 09:25:28 <Hierophant>	Fulvus: But I support Hillary, so isn't it obvious that I'd want to force you to vote for Hillary? Just like you'd prefer it if I voted Trump, right?
338Nov 06 09:25:41 <Fulvus>	I wouldn't prefer you voted Trump.
339Nov 06 09:25:47 <PassedFaust>	No, because we're not assholes
340Nov 06 09:25:51 <Hierophant>	But you support Trump for president??
341Nov 06 09:25:56 <Fulvus>	No.
342Nov 06 09:25:59 <Hierophant>	Wait, so do you prefer Trump or Hillary as president?
343Nov 06 09:26:03 <PassedFaust>	We respect choice
344Nov 06 09:26:37 <Hierophant>	Well, that's the thing. I'm not a big fan of choice, free will and all that. I just don't see why they're necessary, to a certain extent?
345Nov 06 09:26:40 <Brut>	Listen Hiero, I think Trump as president would be horrific. But if he's in, he's in
346Nov 06 09:26:45 <Brut>	It's the will of the people
347Nov 06 09:26:53 <Hierophant>	And what if the will of the people leads to bad things happening?
348Nov 06 09:27:02 <Fulvus>	I just think he's less bad than Hillary, and I make that deduction from a purely moral standpoint, I've accepted the fact that I do actually think Hillary would be better POTUS, I just won't support corruption even if it's effective.
349Nov 06 09:27:14 <PassedFaust>	Then it's our collective lot
350Nov 06 09:27:23 <PassedFaust>	And we chose this
351Nov 06 09:27:44 <Hierophant>	Well, I don't support wallowing and letting horrible things happen just because it's the will of the people! I think we should do the right thing, even if nobody wants it.
352Nov 06 09:27:46 <Fulvus>	I dislike Trump AND Hillary, my personal values only barely tipped the scale one way, so I wouldn't force anyone to do anything, besides maybe confront the fact that Hillary isn't a good person.
353Nov 06 09:28:20 <Brut>	People always think they're doing the right thing
354Nov 06 09:28:26 <VereorNox>	^
355Nov 06 09:28:26 <Fulvus>	Even then, force is WAY too strong word.
356Nov 06 09:28:57 <VereorNox>	Let's rewind for a bit
357Nov 06 09:29:06 <VereorNox>	I think most people agree that Trump is a horrible person, Hierophant
358Nov 06 09:29:12 <VereorNox>	From the way he presents himself to everything he says
359Nov 06 09:29:35 <Hierophant>	Right. So why should we accept a horrible person as president just because he gets the majority vote? That's ridiculous, isn't it?
360Nov 06 09:29:39 <VereorNox>	Full stop
361Nov 06 09:29:42 <VereorNox>	Let me finish
362Nov 06 09:29:49 <Hierophant>	Alright.
363Nov 06 09:29:50 <VereorNox>	Now let's say the candidate was Jeb Bush.
364Nov 06 09:29:58 <VereorNox>	But the republican party is the republican party, you know?
365Nov 06 09:30:02 <Hierophant>	Mhm.
366Nov 06 09:30:21 <VereorNox>	So their views are more conservative, they don't support gay marriage etc. etc.
367Nov 06 09:30:51 <VereorNox>	You would still disagree with their opinion, but would you'd not argue against Jeb Bush like you'd against Trump, right?
368Nov 06 09:31:04 <Hierophant>	Yeah, Jeb has different policies.
369Nov 06 09:31:13 <VereorNox>	Democracy can be about choosing the lesser evil (in your mind).
370Nov 06 09:31:28 <Hierophant>	I get that.
371Nov 06 09:31:30 <VereorNox>	Only for liberals
372Nov 06 09:31:32 <VereorNox>	Well most liberals
373Nov 06 09:31:37 <VereorNox>	The lesser evil is always a liberal candidate
374Nov 06 09:31:47 <VereorNox>	While for conservatives, it's the opposite.
375Nov 06 09:31:52 *	Xtree has quit (Connection closed)
376Nov 06 09:32:41 <VereorNox>	Nobody's arguing nazis will ride on dinosaurs in a rain of blood when gay people get married. People are holding their own values. People are allowed to hold their own values. People are allowed to announce their own values, be judged for them, and be elected for them.
377Nov 06 09:33:15 <VereorNox>	And if the majority of people holds the values that Trump do
378Nov 06 09:33:54 <VereorNox>	Then that's allowed.
379Nov 06 09:34:26 <Brut>	If he sucks (which is likely) he gets booted early or they dump him in four years
380Nov 06 09:34:34 <Brut>	And life goes on
381Nov 06 09:34:35 *	Notify: Mishie is offline (Parahumans)
382Nov 06 09:34:36 <VereorNox>	Honestly I doubt that even Clinton is gonna see a second term.
383Nov 06 09:34:58 <Fulvus>	^ I think Hillary is going to win, I want to see her impeached and for her running mate to take it.
384Nov 06 09:35:01 <VereorNox>	She's incredibly unappealing, she's just more appealing than Trump.
385Nov 06 09:35:08 <Brut>	Heh, I like Kaine
386Nov 06 09:35:13 <Brut>	WOuldn't even be mad
387Nov 06 09:35:16 <Brut>	*Wouldn't
388Nov 06 09:35:30 <Fulvus>	I found Trump more appealing than Clinton, and I find that horrific.
389Nov 06 09:35:52 <VereorNox>	That's fair.
390Nov 06 09:35:53 <Hierophant>	" People are allowed to announce their own values, be judged for them, and be elected for them." <- I think that this statement holds true only if the values aren't bad or wrong
391Nov 06 09:36:05 <Hierophant>	Now, we can argue over what values are bad or wrong, but we agree completely that Trump is wrog.
392Nov 06 09:36:05 <PassedFaust>	Define that shit
393Nov 06 09:36:06 <Hierophant>	wrong*
394Nov 06 09:36:06 <VereorNox>	You don't get to decide which values are bad and wrong.
395Nov 06 09:36:18 <Fulvus>	Bruh, but "bad" and "wrong: are totally subjective.
396Nov 06 09:36:27 <Hierophant>	I don't. I have no power. If Trump gets elected, I can't do anything about it.
397Nov 06 09:36:27 <Brut>	Bad and wrong fifty years ago was being a socialist
398Nov 06 09:36:36 <Brut>	Well, it still is in the states, kind of
399Nov 06 09:36:43 <VereorNox>	You want to have power and decide what values are right and wrong
400Nov 06 09:36:46 <Brut>	But it was considered evil
401Nov 06 09:36:48 <VereorNox>	Become a high ranking politician
402Nov 06 09:36:49 <Brut>	Time's change
403Nov 06 09:36:59 <Hierophant>	But I can say "I think Trump is bad and wrong, and he should not be allowed to be president even if people vote for him"
404Nov 06 09:37:01 <Hierophant>	I can say that, right? o.o
405Nov 06 09:37:02 <VereorNox>	And go to war with Eurasia 
406Nov 06 09:37:04 <Brut>	You can
407Nov 06 09:37:19 <Hierophant>	Right, so what do you disagree with me on here?
408Nov 06 09:37:31 <Brut>	That anyone would take it seriously
409Nov 06 09:37:35 <VereorNox>	[Nov 06 09:35:53] <Hierophant> " People are allowed to announce their own values, be judged for them, and be elected for them." <- I think that this statement holds true only if the values aren't bad or wrong
410Nov 06 09:37:43 <VereorNox>	This statement you repeated throughout this discussion mostly.
411Nov 06 09:37:47 <Hierophant>	Okay, wait, to be clear
412Nov 06 09:37:56 <Fulvus>	I disagree, Brut. Bernie should have taken it, and he probably would have if the DNC didn't sabatage him and he actually got financial support (Which was impossible for him because he wasn't a corporate shill like Hillary.)
413Nov 06 09:38:02 <Hierophant>	you think that it's okay for a person that you personally consider bad to be president as long as he gets the will of the people?
414Nov 06 09:38:08 <PassedFaust>	Yep
415Nov 06 09:38:12 <VereorNox>	Absolutely.
416Nov 06 09:38:15 <Fulvus>	But Socialism is far from stigmatized anymore. Communism still is, but still.
417Nov 06 09:38:18 <Hierophant>	...what does "considering someone to be bad" even mean to you then?
418Nov 06 09:38:26 <PassedFaust>	By the people, for the people
419Nov 06 09:38:34 <Hierophant>	Isn't that like saying you're willing to let evil win?
420Nov 06 09:38:36 <VereorNox>	That's what democracy is about, Hierophant.
421Nov 06 09:38:42 <Brut>	Socialist is still considered an insult by the Republicans, Fulvus
422Nov 06 09:38:57 <Brut>	That says a lot about the states 
423Nov 06 09:39:21 <Hierophant>	Well, the way I would put it is this - I don't like evil winning, so I don't support democracy.
424Nov 06 09:39:30 <VereorNox>	Define evil.
425Nov 06 09:39:34 <VereorNox>	Hillary isn't a patron saint.
426Nov 06 09:39:35 *	Notify: Mishie is online (Parahumans)
427Nov 06 09:39:55 <Hierophant>	I agree.
428Nov 06 09:40:03 <Hierophant>	But she's not evil, and Trump is.
429Nov 06 09:40:03 <Fulvus>	Well I live in Houston, Texas, and it isn't unless you're in the real red woods. That's a stereotype built up the internet.
430Nov 06 09:40:13 <VereorNox>	I repeat, define evil.
431Nov 06 09:40:16 <Xepheria>	Evil is subjective lmao
432Nov 06 09:40:17 <Brut>	Well, I think Trump is an asshole
433Nov 06 09:40:20 <Brut>	He's not evil
434Nov 06 09:40:20 <Hierophant>	Whatever I consider to be bad, of course.
435Nov 06 09:40:23 <Fulvus>	Me too.
436Nov 06 09:40:27 <Hierophant>	Isn't that a tautology?
437Nov 06 09:40:31 <Brut>	No
438Nov 06 09:40:34 <Hierophant>	"Whatever Hierohpant thinks is evil is waht he defines to be evil."
439Nov 06 09:40:43 <Hierophant>	You can swap my name out for anyone else's and it would make sense.
440Nov 06 09:40:54 <Hierophant>	Everyone has their own opinion of what is right and wrong, and it only makes sense to fight for those beliefs.
441Nov 06 09:40:56 *	Mishie (Mibbit@net-1v1m4o.aarnet.net.au) has joined
442Nov 06 09:40:56 *	Tin_Mother gives channel operator status to Mishie
443Nov 06 09:40:58 <PassedFaust>	And it would make no sense
444Nov 06 09:41:07 <PassedFaust>	Stop saying evil and bad
445Nov 06 09:41:12 <Hierophant>	You wouldn't let someone win if you think they're wrong, just like Republicans would say that Hillary shouldn't be electd even if the majority votes her in.
446Nov 06 09:41:17 <Xepheria>	Painting the world in black and white
447Nov 06 09:41:18 <PassedFaust>	It means jack shit
448Nov 06 09:41:27 <Xepheria>	never helps anyone
449Nov 06 09:41:43 <VereorNox>	[Nov 06 09:40:34] <Hierophant> "Whatever Hierohpant thinks is evil is waht he defines to be evil."
450Nov 06 09:41:43 <VereorNox>	[Nov 06 09:40:43] <Hierophant> You can swap my name out for anyone else's and it would make sense.
451Nov 06 09:41:46 <VereorNox>	See the problem about this is
452Nov 06 09:41:57 <VereorNox>	That everyone's opinions 
453Nov 06 09:42:01 <VereorNox>	Clash or coalign
454Nov 06 09:42:03 <VereorNox>	Creating a divice
455Nov 06 09:42:06 <VereorNox>	And... oh shit
456Nov 06 09:42:07 <VereorNox>	Look at that
457Nov 06 09:42:10 <VereorNox>	We suddenly have two parties
458Nov 06 09:42:11 <Mishie>	wait
459Nov 06 09:42:12 <Mishie>	Vern
460Nov 06 09:42:18 <VereorNox>	With two different opinions of what right and wrong is!!!
461Nov 06 09:42:20 <Mishie>	Are you trying to imply that people don't always agree on things?
462Nov 06 09:42:25 <VereorNox>	I think so, Mishie 
463Nov 06 09:42:25 <Xepheria>	No mishie
464Nov 06 09:42:28 <Xepheria>	it's the intenet
465Nov 06 09:42:28 <VereorNox>	Radical thinking, I know
466Nov 06 09:42:30 <Xepheria>	*internet
467Nov 06 09:42:34 <Xepheria>	everyone always agrees
468Nov 06 09:42:39 <Mishie>	same
469Nov 06 09:42:39 *	Roarian2 has quit (Ping timeout: 181 seconds)
470Nov 06 09:42:41 <Hierophant>	Yeah, but it's only natural to try to force the other side to agree with you, right?
471Nov 06 09:42:51 <Xepheria>	'force'
472Nov 06 09:42:52 <Brut>	Through debate and discussion
473Nov 06 09:42:53 <Hierophant>	Nobody would calmly and peacefuly live in a world where the other side still exists.
474Nov 06 09:42:56 <PassedFaust>	No, it makes you uncompromising
475Nov 06 09:42:57 <Xepheria>	you can't force people to think things
476Nov 06 09:42:59 <Brut>	Not forced takeover
477Nov 06 09:43:03 <Hierophant>	So any wordl that is calm and peaceful would have to be one-party by definition
478Nov 06 09:43:06 <VereorNox>	You're arguing for that, Hierophant 
479Nov 06 09:43:10 <VereorNox>	Lemme find the quote
480Nov 06 09:43:11 <Hierophant>	Okay, maybe force is the wrong word.
481Nov 06 09:43:17 <Xepheria>	See
482Nov 06 09:43:17 <Hierophant>	"educate" or "convince" maybe
483Nov 06 09:43:18 <VereorNox>	[Nov 06 09:13:05] <Hierophant> I think that they should be corrected and *gently* educated as to why they're wrong.
484Nov 06 09:43:22 <VereorNox>	Literally your words.
485Nov 06 09:43:29 <Hierophant>	Right. 
486Nov 06 09:43:37 <Hierophant>	Like I said, force is the wrong word here
487Nov 06 09:43:42 <Hierophant>	And I apologize for using that word
488Nov 06 09:43:44 <PassedFaust>	Persuade is the right word
489Nov 06 09:43:48 <VereorNox>	It doesn't matter if you use a prettier word
490Nov 06 09:43:51 <VereorNox>	The intent is the same
491Nov 06 09:43:52 <Hierophant>	So it's only natural to correct the other side when they say something you think is wrong
492Nov 06 09:43:53 <PassedFaust>	Like a debate
493Nov 06 09:43:58 <PassedFaust>	Not correct
494Nov 06 09:44:05 <Brut>	What if they say *you* are wrong
495Nov 06 09:44:08 <Brut>	Then what
496Nov 06 09:44:14 <Hierophant>	But I'm not? So nothing happens.
497Nov 06 09:44:14 <PassedFaust>	Because you are not objectively right
498Nov 06 09:44:17 <Xepheria>	'How dare you have an opinion different to my own?'
499Nov 06 09:44:22 <Hierophant>	I don't *have* to be objectively right
500Nov 06 09:44:23 <Brut>	Jesus Christ
501Nov 06 09:44:27 <Xepheria>	'My worldview is the only worldview that's acceptable'
502Nov 06 09:44:31 <Hierophant>	Okay, I think this discussion is going nowhere.
503Nov 06 09:44:37 <VereorNox>	Because you run in circles
504Nov 06 09:44:45 <Hierophant>	So I'm just going to say that Xepheria's representation of my views is a distorted strawman
505Nov 06 09:44:46 <VereorNox>	Thinking your opinion is right
506Nov 06 09:44:50 <VereorNox>	While everyone is arguing against it
507Nov 06 09:44:58 <Hierophant>	Of course I think my opinion is right! What would I do, think my opinion is wrong??
508Nov 06 09:45:01 <Hierophant>	o.o
509Nov 06 09:45:08 <VereorNox>	No
510Nov 06 09:45:09 <VereorNox>	Of course not
511Nov 06 09:45:10 <PassedFaust>	But it is
512Nov 06 09:45:14 <VereorNox>	We would just like to correct your opinion
513Nov 06 09:45:14 <Xepheria>	I'm taking your statements to their logical conclusion
514Nov 06 09:45:16 <VereorNox>	Adn gently persuade you
515Nov 06 09:45:20 <VereorNox>	To think differently
516Nov 06 09:45:22 <Xepheria>	just extrapolation
517Nov 06 09:45:23 <VereorNox>	There's nothing wrong about that, right?
518Nov 06 09:45:35 <Hierophant>	Right, there's definitely nothing wrong with that. That's the natural order of things.
519Nov 06 09:45:40 <PassedFaust>	We're reeducating you
520Nov 06 09:45:42 <Hierophant>	But it's weird when someone is definitely wrong and you just let him win like that!
521Nov 06 09:45:53 <Elara>	"let him win"
522Nov 06 09:45:55 <VereorNox>	Define. Definitely. Wrong.
523Nov 06 09:46:10 <PassedFaust>	Hierophant quit saying wronh
524Nov 06 09:46:11 <Hierophant>	I mean, if you think someone is wrong, you wouldn't let him win, right? Let's try to agree on *that* at least
525Nov 06 09:46:15 <VereorNox>	"Does not agree with my opinions" is not an objective statement to define "being wrong"
526Nov 06 09:46:20 <Elara>	In order for democracy to function, you have to accept the other side winning, of they do it by the rules
527Nov 06 09:46:24 <Fulvus>	They don't win unless more people think they AREN'T "definitely wrong". That's the point.
528Nov 06 09:46:38 <Hierophant>	Vern, what would you call someone who disagrees with your views other than "wrong" unless you think your views themselves are wrong?
529Nov 06 09:46:53 <Brut>	But the fun thing about a democracy with free speech Hiero
530Nov 06 09:46:54 <PassedFaust>	Quit saying wrong
531Nov 06 09:46:55 <Elara>	Because there is a value to the system continuing to function that goes above and beyond the flaws with one individual candidate
532Nov 06 09:46:59 <Hierophant>	Elara: Well, yeah, and I think that's like the biggest, biggest big flaw of democracy
533Nov 06 09:47:00 <VereorNox>	I'd say that they have a different opinion I disagree with.
534Nov 06 09:47:02 <Brut>	Is that even if you think they're wrong and they win
535Nov 06 09:47:04 <Hierophant>	because it allows idiots and bad people to wring
536Nov 06 09:47:05 <Hierophant>	win*
537Nov 06 09:47:09 <VereorNox>	But I wouldn't call it wrong.
538Nov 06 09:47:12 <Xepheria>	If you can't entertain an idea without accepting it
539Nov 06 09:47:16 <Xepheria>	I have little hope for you
540Nov 06 09:47:17 <Hierophant>	Vern: What's the difference between that and saying "wrong" though
541Nov 06 09:47:18 <Fulvus>	If Hillary wins I'll be mildly irritated, but I'll "let" her win, for sure. Fuck, I'll be bildly irritated if Trump wins too because that's how shit this election is, but still.
542Nov 06 09:47:21 <Brut>	You can still criticize and argue with them 
543Nov 06 09:47:27 <Hierophant>	Why would I bother entertaining ideas I don't accept?
544Nov 06 09:47:36 <PassedFaust>	Compromise
545Nov 06 09:47:44 <Fulvus>	We've gone over that one in extensive length before, Hiero.
546Nov 06 09:47:44 <Elara>	A lot of people think that Trump being president for four years would do significantly less damage to the US, than "not letting" him win
547Nov 06 09:47:47 <PassedFaust>	Being likable
548Nov 06 09:47:48 <Hierophant>	You'd weaken your ideals for the sake of compromise? :|
549Nov 06 09:47:51 <Xepheria>	yes
550Nov 06 09:47:56 <Xepheria>	if it means getting shit done
551Nov 06 09:47:58 <VereorNox>	criticizing something and calling it plain wrong is the difference between having this discussion
552Nov 06 09:48:03 <VereorNox>	And sticking your fingers into your ears
553Nov 06 09:48:07 <VereorNox>	Shouting "LALALALA" on the top of your lungs
554Nov 06 09:48:21 <Mishie>	18:46	Hierophant	because it allows idiots and bad people to wring
555Nov 06 09:48:22 <Mishie>	okay
556Nov 06 09:48:22 <Mishie>	so
557Nov 06 09:48:23 <Hierophant>	Okay, then I think the difference is we're defining wrong differently
558Nov 06 09:48:29 <Mishie>	Just going to throw this out there
559Nov 06 09:48:29 <Hierophant>	Well, that's bad, I think.
560Nov 06 09:48:34 <Elara>	Any system occasionally has to choose between the immediate good of it's goals and the long-term good of the system
561Nov 06 09:48:35 <Hierophant>	We agree idiots and bad people winning is not good, right?
562Nov 06 09:48:38 <Mishie>	What happens when people decide that you're an idiot that's wrong?
563Nov 06 09:48:42 <Fulvus>	Because if you are not willing to entertain opposing ideals, you will stagnate and be unable to change, over time you will also double-down into more extreme ideals because you are going out of your way to not be challenegd on an intellectual level.
564Nov 06 09:48:45 <PassedFaust>	Because calling people wrong makes you seem like a massive dick
565Nov 06 09:48:47 <Hierophant>	Hmm? then you don't win
566Nov 06 09:48:50 <Brut>	Hiero, even if the "wrong" side wins the election, free speech allows them to still be criticized for being "wrong"
567Nov 06 09:48:52 <Mishie>	But I did
568Nov 06 09:48:54 <Mishie>	You're an idiot
569Nov 06 09:48:55 <Mishie>	and wrong
570Nov 06 09:48:55 <Elara>	It's adorable that you think it applies only to democracy
571Nov 06 09:48:57 <Mishie>	I'm in power
572Nov 06 09:49:00 <Xepheria>	Flat out refusal to consider ideas and alternative viewpoints just makes you seem uneducated
573Nov 06 09:49:03 <Mishie>	Therefore I'm right
574Nov 06 09:49:09 <Mishie>	Thus, you're an idiot that's wrong.
575Nov 06 09:49:33 <Hierophant>	Xepheria: There's a difference between "considering" Trump's ideas and just standing by and letting him win
576Nov 06 09:49:34 <VereorNox>	The entire point is
577Nov 06 09:49:37 <VereorNox>	You think you are right, Hierophant
578Nov 06 09:49:43 <VereorNox>	That's your bias, and that's alright
579Nov 06 09:49:45 <Xepheria>	Who says anyone would stand by
580Nov 06 09:49:46 <Hierophant>	Of course I do! Everyone does 
581Nov 06 09:49:46 <Xepheria>	lmao
582Nov 06 09:49:47 <VereorNox>	And here's half a dozen people
583Nov 06 09:49:51 <VereorNox>	Who tell you you're wrong.
584Nov 06 09:49:53 <Xepheria>	they would fight every step of the fucking way
585Nov 06 09:49:56 <VereorNox>	Why don't you correct your thinking?
586Nov 06 09:49:59 <Elara>	How would you stop him winning, Hiero? Be specific, please
587Nov 06 09:50:02 <Xepheria>	and I have no influence anyway
588Nov 06 09:50:12 <Hierophant>	Ideally? Just tell him he's disqualified and make Hillary the president by defeault.
589Nov 06 09:50:13 <Xepheria>	I'm both British, and not 18
590Nov 06 09:50:15 <VereorNox>	Hiero suggests an unconstitutional bias towards the "right" candidate, Elara 
591Nov 06 09:50:20 <VereorNox>	Not allowing Trump to be president even if he wins
592Nov 06 09:50:26 <Brut>	Hiero, you have no fucking idea how much the entire system of democracy in America would crack if the winner of the presidential election was just told "Nah"
593Nov 06 09:50:28 <VereorNox>	Because the majority of people are wrong.
594Nov 06 09:50:30 <Brut>	That's not how it works
595Nov 06 09:50:33 <Elara>	W o w
596Nov 06 09:50:48 <Hierophant>	Okay, so what's wrong with democracy cracking?
597Nov 06 09:50:55 <Fulvus>	We need to dial back the tone of this conversation slightly, guys.
598Nov 06 09:51:03 <Xepheria>	Because then we go back to feudalism
599Nov 06 09:51:04 <Hierophant>	Okay, maybe I'll take a break, cool down and come back with a clearer head?
600Nov 06 09:51:12 <Xepheria>	he who has the biggest stick 'wins'
601Nov 06 09:51:16 <Elara>	Because hundreds of millions of people live, mostly functionally, under the system
602Nov 06 09:51:23 <PassedFaust>	Hiero, I think you are naive, unreasonable, more than a little stubborn, and a fascist in classical definition. But I think you should be able to be that way in politics.
603Nov 06 09:51:37 <PassedFaust>	Because my opinion is just that
604Nov 06 09:51:40 <Elara>	If you crack it, you're risking harming large portions of those people
605Nov 06 09:51:42 <PassedFaust>	An opinion
606Nov 06 09:51:59 <Hierophant>	Okay, wait, I think I see the root of our disagreement.
607Nov 06 09:52:05 <Hierophant>	Faust, can you name a strong opinion you have?
608Nov 06 09:52:06 <VereorNox>	Your opinion?
609Nov 06 09:52:17 <Hierophant>	Like, any strong opinion
610Nov 06 09:52:33 <PassedFaust>	I think that gay marriage should be legal
611Nov 06 09:52:35 <Hierophant>	Okay.
612Nov 06 09:52:43 <Hierophant>	Do you think that everyone in the world should also think that gay marriage should be legal?
613Nov 06 09:52:48 <PassedFaust>	No
614Nov 06 09:52:52 <Hierophant>	Right.
615Nov 06 09:52:59 <Hierophant>	I'm having trouble reconciling those two facts?
616Nov 06 09:53:04 <Fulvus>	?
617Nov 06 09:53:07 <Elara>	Why?
618Nov 06 09:53:09 <Xepheria>	??
619Nov 06 09:53:09 <VereorNox>	"Everyone should think exactly like I do." - Hiero
620Nov 06 09:53:18 <PassedFaust>	Because I support people's right to disagree with me
621Nov 06 09:53:42 <VereorNox>	Hiero disagrees with that right. That's the root of it.
622Nov 06 09:53:48 <Brut>	I'm sure Faust, like the rest of us, *wishes* people all agreed on that
623Nov 06 09:53:51 <Hierophant>	I don't understand why you'd say that gay marriage is right but allow people to think it's wrong.
624Nov 06 09:53:56 <Brut>	But you have to understand that people don't agree
625Nov 06 09:54:04 <PassedFaust>	I never said it was right
626Nov 06 09:54:06 <Hierophant>	That's a question of reality, not what should be.
627Nov 06 09:54:07 <Fulvus>	"allow" is the key word here.
628Nov 06 09:54:10 <Elara>	Because, Hiero, you might be wrong
629Nov 06 09:54:13 <Hierophant>	In an ideal world, everyone would agree gay marriage is right, right?
630Nov 06 09:54:19 <Hierophant>	Like, in a perfect system
631Nov 06 09:54:31 <VereorNox>	No.
632Nov 06 09:54:32 <PassedFaust>	On MY ideal world
633Nov 06 09:54:36 <Elara>	If you stop people from disagreeing with you, you'll never find out that you're wrong
634Nov 06 09:54:37 <VereorNox>	^
635Nov 06 09:54:45 <VereorNox>	Both Faust and Elara ^
636Nov 06 09:55:00 <Fulvus>	^ All those 4 posts
637Nov 06 09:55:14 <Hierophant>	What is the distinction between "an" ideal world and "my" ideal world? 
638Nov 06 09:55:21 <Brut>	Reality
639Nov 06 09:55:25 <Hierophant>	I think I'm failing to grasp something fundamental here
640Nov 06 09:55:25 <Xepheria>	If people never questioned the established line of thinking
641Nov 06 09:55:26 <Elara>	In my ideal world, gay marriage is accepted everywhere, but there are still people campaigning against it
642Nov 06 09:55:27 <PassedFaust>	Because you are not me
643Nov 06 09:55:31 <Xepheria>	we'd still be in the dark ages
644Nov 06 09:55:33 <Hierophant>	Reality has nothing to do with an ideal world, I think.
645Nov 06 09:55:39 <PassedFaust>	You hold different values
646Nov 06 09:55:49 <Xepheria>	Alternatively
647Nov 06 09:55:50 <Hierophant>	"What is" has no place in the discussion of what should be. That only comes when we're discussing how to make the two reconcile
648Nov 06 09:55:56 <Xepheria>	an ideal world has nothing to do with reality
649Nov 06 09:56:10 <Hierophant>	That's the same thing. I don't care about reality, I care about an ideal world.
650Nov 06 09:56:14 <Elara>	What should be is based first, on an understanding of what is
651Nov 06 09:56:20 <Hierophant>	What!
652Nov 06 09:56:35 <Hierophant>	Do you mean to say your values would change if you were living in someplace else?
653Nov 06 09:56:39 <Elara>	You can't build a utopia that works if you don't understand how things really work
654Nov 06 09:56:41 <Xepheria>	Yes
655Nov 06 09:56:42 <Fulvus>	They would, actually.
656Nov 06 09:56:47 <Brut>	Absolutely Hiero
657Nov 06 09:56:47 <Fulvus>	That's how socialization works.
658Nov 06 09:56:51 <Hierophant>	That gay marriage magically becomes wrong if human society were structured differently?
659Nov 06 09:56:52 <Xepheria>	if you were living in nazi germany
660Nov 06 09:56:56 <VereorNox>	Strife improves. Conflict improves. Crisis improve.
661Nov 06 09:57:04 <Elara>	You cannot reform without understanding the current system
662Nov 06 09:57:04 <Xepheria>	you would probably be more inclined to agree with the nazis
663Nov 06 09:57:10 <PassedFaust>	In my ideal world my hands wouldn't be fucked, my girlfriend wouldn't have cheated and I'd eat steak every day. Guess what won't fucking happen?
664Nov 06 09:57:11 <Hierophant>	Yeah, but even in Nazi Germany gay marriage doesn't magically become wrong just because the nazis think it is!
665Nov 06 09:57:18 <Xepheria>	erm
666Nov 06 09:57:21 <Xepheria>	...
667Nov 06 09:57:26 <VereorNox>	For Nazis? It definitely does.
668Nov 06 09:57:34 <Elara>	Ok, can we walk back the Godwin a little
669Nov 06 09:57:42 <Hierophant>	PassedFaust: But it's ridiculous to say "well, my hands are fucked, so let's pretend my hands should not be healthy." Right?
670Nov 06 09:57:47 <Hierophant>	And if you could make your hands unfucked, you would, right?
671Nov 06 09:57:57 <PassedFaust>	Yeah, but I can't 
672Nov 06 09:57:58 <VereorNox>	I mean
673Nov 06 09:57:59 <Fulvus>	It's hard to do that, Elara, because this conversation actually is somewhat related to fascism. For once.
674Nov 06 09:58:03 <VereorNox>	I'm sure the steak thing can happen, PassedFaust
675Nov 06 09:58:11 <Hierophant>	Vern: Wait, doesn't that imply that the Nazis have the ability to make gay marriage wrong just by believing it/
676Nov 06 09:58:14 <Hierophant>	I don't buy that at all.
677Nov 06 09:58:17 <VereorNox>	No, Hierophant 
678Nov 06 09:58:30 <Xepheria>	That's exactly what they did
679Nov 06 09:58:39 <VereorNox>	That implies that during the 1940s, the reality of the German people was that gay marriage was wrong
680Nov 06 09:58:52 <Fulvus>	The point is that they shouldn't be able to do that, and NEITHER should anyone else.
681Nov 06 09:58:56 <Fulvus>	Even you.
682Nov 06 09:59:01 <Brut>	The Nazis managed to create a reality where they could pin everything on other groups of people
683Nov 06 09:59:07 <Xepheria>	'Everyone that deviates from the norm shall be placed in these here camps'
684Nov 06 09:59:09 <Brut>	Because they *couldn't* be wrong!
685Nov 06 09:59:13 <Brut>	Of course not
686Nov 06 09:59:20 <Xepheria>	'Don't question the leadership
687Nov 06 09:59:24 <Xepheria>	'we're right'
688Nov 06 09:59:25 <VereorNox>	That's the crux of your opinion, Hierophant 
689Nov 06 09:59:35 <VereorNox>	You don't think any opinion you hold is wrong.
690Nov 06 09:59:37 <PassedFaust>	I'm going to sleep, have fun with this. Xeph, I already pursued that line, don't bother
691Nov 06 09:59:46 <Xepheria>	It's hypocrisy of the highest order
692Nov 06 09:59:46 <VereorNox>	Night Faustus
693Nov 06 09:59:50 <Xepheria>	night faust
694Nov 06 09:59:51 <VereorNox>	Eat some steak when you can
695Nov 06 10:00:09 <Hierophant>	I think that there is a system of morality and politics, somewhere, that is absolutely and completely right and perfect. I do not claim to have that system, but I can claim to know definitely if something is NOT within that system - such as Donald J. Trump.
696Nov 06 10:00:37 <Hierophant>	And, if we suppose that there was a leadership who was perfect enough to understand and enact that system, then they would have every right to order people not to question them and to re-educate those who disagree.
697Nov 06 10:00:51 <Elara>	Hiero, your opinion is not the pinnacle of human development. None of our opinions are: humanity isn't finished yet. If you shut down wrong opinions and stop the interflow of ideas, you are holding us back
698Nov 06 10:00:56 <Hierophant>	The Nazis do not have this right, because Nazism is not the perfect morality - I know enough to see that much, even if I'm not perfect myself.
699Nov 06 10:00:57 <Fulvus>	Yeah, I'm checking out too, I have a migraine and it's 4am here. l8r t8rs.
700Nov 06 10:01:02 *	Axle has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
701Nov 06 10:01:05 <Elara>	That perfect leadership is impossible
702Nov 06 10:01:11 <Hierophant>	Why?
703Nov 06 10:01:12 <Xepheria>	Who defines 'perfect morality'
704Nov 06 10:01:19 <Brut>	Stop calling it the perfect morality
705Nov 06 10:01:22 <Elara>	Because humans?
706Nov 06 10:01:24 <Hierophant>	It's not defined by anyone!!
707Nov 06 10:01:26 <Hierophant>	It just *is*
708Nov 06 10:01:32 <Hierophant>	I would call it the word of god, only I don't believe in god
709Nov 06 10:01:32 <Brut>	That doesn't make sense
710Nov 06 10:01:33 <Hierophant>	y'know?
711Nov 06 10:01:36 <Xepheria>	I'm fairly certain the nazi's would have said that their system was the pinnacle of humanity
712Nov 06 10:01:41 <Brut>	That's objectivism
713Nov 06 10:01:47 <Brut>	And it's bullshit
714Nov 06 10:01:49 <Hierophant>	I'm not sure what objectivism is.
715Nov 06 10:01:56 <Hierophant>	I definitely think subjectivism is wrong.
716Nov 06 10:02:15 <Xepheria>	Is murder wrong?
717Nov 06 10:02:24 <Brut>	That there a a defined right and wrong
718Nov 06 10:02:28 <Brut>	*there is
719Nov 06 10:02:36 <Elara>	Whoa whoa whoa
720Nov 06 10:02:54 <Elara>	Careful with words, objectivism is a very specific thing
721Nov 06 10:03:02 <Elara>	Damnit Ayn Rand
722Nov 06 10:03:26 <Hierophant>	I think that there is a defined right and wrong. I don't think anyone defined it.
723Nov 06 10:03:37 <Hierophant>	it just *is*, as a, well, a cosmic law, I suppose you could say.
724Nov 06 10:03:50 <Brut>	Do you have proof
725Nov 06 10:04:01 <Hierophant>	If you don't agree with me on this, then there's nothing to say any more, because this is at an axiomatic level.
726Nov 06 10:04:04 <VereorNox>	Okay
727Nov 06 10:04:16 <Xepheria>	that sounds awfully like religion to me
728Nov 06 10:04:18 <VereorNox>	I say one of the cosmic laws is that people are free to have any opinion
729Nov 06 10:04:22 <Elara>	Naw, that's okay
730Nov 06 10:04:24 <VereorNox>	Even dissenting ones.
731Nov 06 10:04:36 <Elara>	I broadly agree that there is a true morality
732Nov 06 10:04:38 <Brut>	All morality humans have comes from out evolutionary need to get along in a society
733Nov 06 10:04:40 <VereorNox>	But these opinions can be limited by the top brass
734Nov 06 10:04:52 <Brut>	Not a fucking *cosmic* need
735Nov 06 10:04:54 <VereorNox>	For example, I've clashed with Wildbow and Winged over what's okay to say in chat and what not
736Nov 06 10:05:07 <VereorNox>	This is Wildbow's server, he can decide that
737Nov 06 10:05:14 <VereorNox>	But he has not banned me for telling him that I disagree
738Nov 06 10:05:15 <Hierophant>	Xepheria: It's not religious - there's no worship or anything.
739Nov 06 10:05:19 <Elara>	It is humanity dependent, but with humanity taken as a given it's basically fixed
740Nov 06 10:05:36 <Hierophant>	^
741Nov 06 10:06:00 <Brut>	But it's not cosmic, whatever that means
742Nov 06 10:06:10 <Xepheria>	^
743Nov 06 10:06:26 <Hierophant>	's just a fancy way of saying it's absolute.
744Nov 06 10:06:46 <Brut>	But it's only absolute because we like hunting in groups
745Nov 06 10:06:46 <Xepheria>	it's not absolute though
746Nov 06 10:06:51 <Brut>	That what it all boils down to
747Nov 06 10:06:54 <Xepheria>	there is no such thing as absolute morality
748Nov 06 10:06:59 <Elara>	I just don't think I know exactly what it is, or that anyone does, or that we ever will, or that we can build a system around some people knowing what it is and forcing everyone else to abide by it
749Nov 06 10:07:13 <Hierophant>	If you can't agree with me that there is an absolutely true, universal morality, then I have literally nothing to say to you, because we're disagreeing on a level so deep there's absolutely no way of changing it through discussion, so anything further would be unproductive
750Nov 06 10:07:14 <Elara>	Even an ideal, utopian system