26Fnkigj

1JDC Exec WhatsApp Group
2Created: 27 November 2015
3
4Johann Malawana (Chair)
5David Rouse (Co-Deputy Chair, Professional Issues)
6Lucy Jane Davis (Co-Deputy Chair, Professional Issues)
7Aaron Borbora (Deputy Chair, TCS&N)
8Ellen McCourt (Deputy Chair, E&T)
9Andrew Collier (Former Co-chair, current member of TCS&N subcommittee)
10Kitty Mohan (Former Co-chair, current member of TCS&N subcommittee)
11Adam Collins (member of TCS&N subcommittee)
12Yannis Gourtsouyannis (member of TCS&N subcommittee)
13Amjad Sami (Chair, NRJDC group) 
14Melody Redman (member of E&T subcommittee)
15Arrash Arya Yassaee (member of E&T subcommittee)
16Luke Boyle (Chair, JD Conference)
17Zoe Greaves (member of E&T subcommittee)
18Lottie Elliott (member of E&T subcommittee)
19Chris Sheridan (Scottish JDC Chair)
20Tim Crocker-Buque (Public Health Registrars)
21Bethan Roberts (Welsh JDC Chair)
22Conan Castles (NI JDC Chair)
23Harrison Carter (MSC Co-chair)
24Charlie Bell (MSC Co-chair)
25Donna Tooth  (Chair, GP Trainees)
26
2727/11/2015, 11:18 - J Malawana created group “JDC exec”
2827/11/2015, 11:20 - J Malawana: We may need a very urgent meeting. 
29
30There looks like they are going to effectively lift the imposition.
3127/11/2015, 11:20 - K Mohan: When?
3227/11/2015, 11:21 - K Mohan: Sorry as in when meeting not when will 
33
34they lift it.
3527/11/2015, 11:21 - J Malawana: This lunchtime/afternoon?
3627/11/2015, 11:21 - M Redman: I'm free whenever #annualleave
3727/11/2015, 11:22 - J Malawana: Who am I missing on this list?
3827/11/2015, 11:22 - J Malawana added Amjad
3927/11/2015, 11:22 - M Redman: Luke
4027/11/2015, 11:23 - J Malawana: I think I have got the others worded as 
41
42guarantees
4327/11/2015, 11:23 - J Malawana: Going to have a memorandum that agrees 
44
45most of our 5 issued.
4627/11/2015, 11:24 - J Malawana: This is absolutely confidential
4727/11/2015, 11:24 - J Malawana: Not one can talk about this.
4827/11/2015, 11:24 - M Redman: Are Chris Sheridan and bethan on here? 
49
50There are a couple of numbers I don't recognise sorry
5127/11/2015, 11:24 - M Redman: Worded in writing?
5227/11/2015, 11:24 - D Tooth: Conan
5327/11/2015, 11:24 - K Mohan: Yes they both are.
5427/11/2015, 11:25 - K Mohan: I'm on call but can scoot away for a call 
55
56if needed.
5727/11/2015, 11:28 - J Malawana: Can everyone check the list and make 
58
59sure everyone is on here
6027/11/2015, 11:30 - L J Davis: Wow.
6127/11/2015, 11:31 - M Redman: Luke isn't in here
6227/11/2015, 11:31 - L J Davis: Ok... If we're having a mtg, when?
6327/11/2015, 11:31 - A Yassaee: I potentially have a quietish day but 
64
65travelling this evening
6627/11/2015, 11:32 - M Redman: Harry/Charlie from msc
6727/11/2015, 11:32 - T Crocker-Buque: Tim CB here - I'm on call today. 
68
69If there's a TC that would be ideal, Scopia is difficult
7027/11/2015, 11:38 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Oncall after 5pm. So not free 
71
72then. Before 5 can b at bma house.
7327/11/2015, 11:41 - A Sami: Johann, can you repost anything you sent 
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75before 11:22 o'clock pleass?
7627/11/2015, 11:41 - A Sami: Amjad
7727/11/2015, 11:43 - K Mohan: <Media omitted>
7827/11/2015, 11:43 - K Mohan: <Media omitted>
7927/11/2015, 11:43 - A Yassaee: Do you want us in person or TC?
8027/11/2015, 11:44 - J Malawana added Luke Boyle
8127/11/2015, 11:45 - J Malawana: Can some add HARRISON and Charlie?
8227/11/2015, 11:45 - M Redman: Harrison Carter.vcf (file attached)
8327/11/2015, 11:46 - A Yassaee: Charlie Bell.vcf (file attached)
8427/11/2015, 11:46 - J Malawana added Charlie Bell
8527/11/2015, 11:46 - J Malawana added Harry Carter
8627/11/2015, 11:48 - J Malawana: Harry, Charlie need to have a meeting
8727/11/2015, 11:48 - J Malawana: Probably about 1pm.
8827/11/2015, 11:48 - J Malawana: Maybe slightly after.
8927/11/2015, 11:49 - H Carter: Can do up until 2pm
9027/11/2015, 11:50 - A Collins: I'm in work, but can TC in if needed. 
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92Scopia I don't think will work from NHS ArseEndOfNowhere
9327/11/2015, 11:51 - H Carter: Charlie is at HQ today. I'm not but can 
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95do this from my phone
9627/11/2015, 11:52 - A Sami: Thank you, Kitty
97
98I am available this afternoon.  Scopia or TC both are good.
99
100Amjad
10127/11/2015, 11:52 - B Roberts: I'm free today. #LTFT. Exciting 
102
103developments indeed. Bethan
10427/11/2015, 12:02 - A Borbora: I'm in London
10527/11/2015, 12:02 - Aaron Borbora added ?L Elliott
10627/11/2015, 12:04 - D Rouse: I'm working 1300-2300
10727/11/2015, 12:04 - D Rouse: I can try and call in for a bit
10827/11/2015, 12:06 - ?L Elliott: Can't see any previous messages above 
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110what Rouse put if the message was important
11127/11/2015, 12:07 - A Borbora: Exex group
11227/11/2015, 12:07 - A Borbora: Exec
11327/11/2015, 12:07 - A Sami: <Media omitted>
11427/11/2015, 12:07 - ?L Elliott: I gathered that from the name of the 
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116group...
11727/11/2015, 12:07 - A Sami: <Media omitted>
11827/11/2015, 12:07 - ?L Elliott: Oh ok so big news then good job I asked
11927/11/2015, 12:09 - K Mohan: Sorry do we have a thing like a Probable 
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121time yet?
12227/11/2015, 12:10 - K Mohan: Ok that weirdly autocorrected
12327/11/2015, 12:13 - J Malawana: Aaron where are you? Can you sort out 
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125with Andy young the room.
12627/11/2015, 12:13 - J Malawana: Corpe or bunker
12727/11/2015, 12:13 - J Malawana: Meeting to start in 10 minutes
12827/11/2015, 12:13 - J Malawana: They are calling number 10 to get 
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130clearance as they are shitting it.
13127/11/2015, 12:14 - D Rouse: What's the dial in number
13227/11/2015, 12:14 - A Borbora: Being sorted
13327/11/2015, 12:14 - E McCourt: Time and I will not see next patient
13427/11/2015, 12:14 - J Malawana: Nothing will go out till later today or 
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136tomorrow.
13727/11/2015, 12:14 - A Borbora: 10min
13827/11/2015, 12:14 - D Rouse: Wonder how many juniors will explode if we 
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140cancel I/A
14127/11/2015, 12:15 - B Roberts: None - we'll have got what we wanted!
14227/11/2015, 12:15 - D Rouse: Ahahahaha
14327/11/2015, 12:15 - D Rouse: Yes but to a lot of the angry ones this is 
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145now anti conservative
14627/11/2015, 12:15 - D Rouse: Anti government
14727/11/2015, 12:15 - D Rouse: Not pro contract
14827/11/2015, 12:16 - A Sami: Absolutely, Bethan.
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150They need a different facebook group then, David.
151
152Amjad
15327/11/2015, 12:16 - J Malawana: We have just extracted a kidney from 
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155these people.
15627/11/2015, 12:16 - D Rouse: Hahaha
15727/11/2015, 12:16 - J Malawana: I don't think we are going to get their 
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159heart. Yet.
16027/11/2015, 12:16 - D Rouse: Johann they wanted his head not a kidney
16127/11/2015, 12:16 - J Malawana: But hunt is fucked.
16227/11/2015, 12:16 - A Borbora: Cope room being prepared
16327/11/2015, 12:16 - A Borbora: Meeting to start at 1225
16427/11/2015, 12:16 - J Malawana: No way he can survive this.
16527/11/2015, 12:16 - D Rouse: Aaron what is the dial in I'll have to use 
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167phone
16827/11/2015, 12:17 - A Yassaee: Same
16927/11/2015, 12:17 - A Sami: Doal in and/or Scopia please
170(When you have a chance!)
17127/11/2015, 12:17 - A Yassaee: He was summoned to treasury early last 
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173week
17427/11/2015, 12:19 - A Borbora: <Media omitted>
17527/11/2015, 12:20 - ?L Elliott: Meeting in 5 mins???
17627/11/2015, 12:20 - ?L Elliott: Jeez
17727/11/2015, 12:21 - ?L Elliott: Sounds promising
17827/11/2015, 12:22 - E McCourt: Umm I can't read the phone number...
17927/11/2015, 12:22 - M Redman: There's a spiderphone??
18027/11/2015, 12:23 - A Borbora: <Media omitted>
18127/11/2015, 12:23 - K Mohan: What is the Scopia.
18227/11/2015, 12:23 - H Carter: The details have been sent to the 
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184listserver
18527/11/2015, 12:23 - A Borbora: <Media omitted>
18627/11/2015, 12:26 - A Collins: Which of those do I dial?
18727/11/2015, 12:27 - H Carter: The one with lots of 3's in it
18827/11/2015, 12:27 - H Carter: ISDN
18927/11/2015, 12:27 - A Collins: Ta
19027/11/2015, 12:29 - A Borbora: 02030 333911
19127/11/2015, 12:43 - T Crocker-Buque: I'm on TC but can't work out if 
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193you can hear me. I'd like to come in to disagree with Yannis
19427/11/2015, 12:44 - Z Greaves: You can't hear me either and the phone 
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196cuts me off every five mins
19727/11/2015, 12:44 - D Rouse: there are people on
19827/11/2015, 12:44 - D Rouse: Telephone
19927/11/2015, 12:44 - D Rouse: Can you  remove mute
20027/11/2015, 12:44 - Z Greaves: I have
20127/11/2015, 12:44 - C Castles: Same as Keith. I missed the first minute 
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203so dont know what we're discussing and no one seemed to hear me when I 
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205spoke earlier
20627/11/2015, 12:44 - C Bell: Harry are you in? Just finished supervision
20727/11/2015, 12:45 - H Carter: Yes I'm in
20827/11/2015, 12:45 - Z Greaves: Ditto
20927/11/2015, 12:45 - M Redman: Sam muted everyone cos there was too much 
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211feedback
21227/11/2015, 12:46 - H Carter: Can we please unmute?
21327/11/2015, 12:46 - D Rouse: And David
21427/11/2015, 12:46 - D Rouse: Wants it I muting
21527/11/2015, 12:46 - D Rouse: AARON
21627/11/2015, 12:46 - D Rouse: !!
21727/11/2015, 12:46 - B Roberts: Can you all see me? I would want an 
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219assurance that the status quo would be maintained until the new 
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221contract can be mutually agreed. Bethan
22227/11/2015, 12:46 - H Carter: Somebody in the room ask sam to do that 
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224now
22527/11/2015, 12:46 - C Castles: Oh right. Based on what I have heard so 
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227far, I agree with yannis
22827/11/2015, 12:46 - D Rouse: Please unmute
22927/11/2015, 12:46 - ?L Elliott: I'm on a train btw so will send 
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231messages to Aaron. It's busy and one of hunts minions may be here
23227/11/2015, 12:46 - A Collins: Conan, ring my mobile and I'll read you 
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234the statement if you want?
23527/11/2015, 12:47 - H Carter: People are trying trying to speak
23627/11/2015, 12:47 - Z Greaves: What statement?
23727/11/2015, 12:48 - T Crocker-Buque: I'd still like to come in. Aaron's 
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239summary wasn't really sufficient!
24027/11/2015, 12:48 - D Rouse: I am trying to sort it
24127/11/2015, 12:49 - A Borbora: He's aware 
242Tom cb 
243D Rouse 
244Conan 
245
246Want to speak
24727/11/2015, 12:49 - A Collins: What we're discussing is a proposed 
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249joint statement from ACAS/BMA/NHSE/DH  which Johann has read out to the 
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251group as it's too sensitive to email round
25227/11/2015, 12:50 - A Collins: Can we add me to that list please?
25327/11/2015, 12:51 - Z Greaves: And me
25427/11/2015, 12:51 - C Castles: I wasnt looking to speak, I was trying 
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256to find out what was said
25727/11/2015, 12:51 - Z Greaves: That also would be helpful
25827/11/2015, 12:51 - A Borbora: Ok
25927/11/2015, 12:55 - T Crocker-Buque: I'm broadly in agreement with LJD 
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261and David - no need to speak
26227/11/2015, 12:56 - T Crocker-Buque: Someone say that out loud
26327/11/2015, 12:56 - D Rouse: Done so
26427/11/2015, 12:56 - T Crocker-Buque: Thanks!
26527/11/2015, 12:57 - Z Greaves: I can't get through on the other line 
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267and I do want to speak please!!
26827/11/2015, 12:57 - A Collins: Still would like to speak but it will 
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270went dead there for a second :s
27127/11/2015, 12:58 - C Castles: Can someone please express my strong 
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273support for what yannis has said both times he had spoken . I've got 
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275two urgent home visits waiting, so need to go
27627/11/2015, 12:58 - T Crocker-Buque: I disagree with Yannis - striking 
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278for the sake of striking would be a terrible idea. This is a good basis 
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280to move forward.
28127/11/2015, 12:59 - C Castles: Thanks David
28227/11/2015, 12:59 - D Rouse: I will always try to get voices heard
28327/11/2015, 13:00 - ?L Elliott: The Yannis. I agree. Suspension of 
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285imposition is weak - members will go off on one.
28627/11/2015, 13:01 - T Crocker-Buque: If we call off day 1, I imagine 
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288much of this progress will be withdrawn.
28927/11/2015, 13:01 - Z Greaves: I also strongly disagree with yannis. If 
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291yohann says that what is on the table now is the best we're going to 
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293get then we need to take it - industrial action is a means to get back 
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295to negotiation with a better hand than we have now if we can't get a 
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297better hand then it's just angry shouting - our members are better than 
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299that, we are better than that.  We still have the option to take action 
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301until January and if it all goes wrong after that the contract will go 
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303to our members and they will vote against it and we will strike then. 
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305But action without purpose is wasted momentum
30627/11/2015, 13:01 - T Crocker-Buque: Dont*
30727/11/2015, 13:03 - A Collins: Can I come in please?
30827/11/2015, 13:06 - A Collins: Can we hear folk on the phone?
30927/11/2015, 13:09 - C Castles: They told us months ago that was the 
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311best we would get.  IA was never about getting specifics agreed on the 
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313contract, it was about forcing them to drop the imposition and 
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315preconditions. Without a statement saying they will not impose, IA 
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317should proceed. Their urgency today should not be our panic to cancel 
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319IA - they have waited weeks to get to this point.
32027/11/2015, 13:12 - ?L Elliott: Yes! IA is based on the imposition. 
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322Suspension not good enough.
32327/11/2015, 13:12 - ?L Elliott: Sorry Internet and phone cut out
32427/11/2015, 13:12 - C Bell: I agree, for what it's worth
32527/11/2015, 13:14 - K Mohan: We need to spin the hell out of this as a 
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327huge win. And welcome them withdrawing the imposition etc etc
32827/11/2015, 13:14 - K Mohan: We need to do a "Wales"
32927/11/2015, 13:14 - B Roberts: ^yes!
33027/11/2015, 13:14 - ?L Elliott: Sorry what was agreed?
33127/11/2015, 13:14 - M Redman: If this happens PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE send 
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333jdc embargoed copy first even if 30s before or at same time
33427/11/2015, 13:15 - D Tooth: Apologies dealing with a sick patient
33527/11/2015, 13:15 - K Mohan: Agree with melody. Can someone st BMA 
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337house tell them that.
33827/11/2015, 13:17 - E McCourt: What melody said.
33927/11/2015, 13:18 - C Sheridan: Hey ive just got out of a meeting and 
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341dialled in to silence - is the meeting happening?
34227/11/2015, 13:20 - B Roberts: You just missed it, Chris. I agree with 
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344Melody (and I also want to reassure her that I know I eat too 
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346quickly...). Bxxx
34727/11/2015, 13:21 - A Borbora: I think a lot depends on the memorandum. 
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349If that really addresses our demands we will easily be able to present 
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351this as a success. If it's anything like his tactics before then it 
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353will be difficult. 
354My real concern is around the words in it. 
355Also don't forget we can simply reinstate the strikes if he plays 
356
357tricks in the next few weeks.
35827/11/2015, 13:23 - ?L Elliott: Yes we can reinstate strike but the 
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360amount of effort that's gone into day 1 I'm not sure I could do that 
361
362again! Obviously if strike off its a huge relief but don't forget 
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364patients have been cancelled and inconvenienced and a lot of people 
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366have given up a lot of time they didn't need to - please thank them
36727/11/2015, 13:23 - C Sheridan: Thanks Bethan. Oh ffs. How are you guys 
368
369getting away from work to make these?! I was cancelling my plans 
370
371tonight to try and accom another call. Sorry ive read the thread but am 
372
373not entirely clear where we are - can someone put a wee summary update 
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375on here, or can kindly volunteer for a call just now so i can call you 
376
377to find out? Thanks
37827/11/2015, 13:23 - ?L Elliott: Relief/result. Same thing...
37927/11/2015, 13:24 - J Malawana: Chris call Andy young
38027/11/2015, 13:24 - C Sheridan: Ok thanks
38127/11/2015, 13:26 - D Rouse: I want the best contract for us
38227/11/2015, 13:26 - D Rouse: I hope this brings it
38327/11/2015, 13:27 - D Rouse: Also I'd be glad not to have to think 
384
385about a fucking placard for a day or two
38627/11/2015, 13:27 - ?L Elliott: Haha.
38727/11/2015, 13:27 - D Rouse: I'm seeing them in my dreams
38827/11/2015, 13:30 - D Tooth: Have you finished
38927/11/2015, 13:32 - A Collins: Thoughts: asking for total withdrawal of 
390
391threat of imposition is not going to happen as all negotiaions happen 
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393under implicit threat of imposition. Whilst the explicit threat of a 
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395specific imposition changes the nature of negotiations, fundamentally 
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397all employers can choose to face the backlash of imposing at any time. 
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399If the govt agreed never to impose a contract, the BMA could then drag 
400
401our negs for ever by not agreeing to any point, and would have ultimate 
402
403control of the whole process of designing a contract as we would retain 
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405the right to IA or walk away from negs, but the govt would lose their 
406
407power completely. 
408
409Qs: 1) does that make sense or am I completely missing a point 
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4112) do people feel that affects their want for a firm statement to 
412
413"never impose"
41427/11/2015, 13:32 - A Collins: (yes donna, w we finished)
41527/11/2015, 13:33 - Y Gourtsouyannis: May the final document please be 
416
417distributed in EMAIL or whatsapp to all of us (including JDC) BEFORE  
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419final tmro or sunday approval. Serious about this.  JDC must be emailed 
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421individually..must have time to read it and must have a chance to make 
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423an indicative contribution themselves. Whether via individual text or 
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425email to johann or officers.  Whole JDC input on this is CRUCIAL OVER 
426
427THE NEXT 48 HRS. We must hear their voices.
42827/11/2015, 13:40 - J Malawana: Yannis that just isn't going to be 
429
430possible. As much as I would like to the ability to discuss with exec 
431
432was already something that was a massive issue.
43327/11/2015, 13:41 - J Malawana: Kitty is right. We need to be all over 
434
435the messaging. But whatever happens I am going to have to face a lot of 
436
437very hard line people.
43827/11/2015, 13:42 - A Borbora: We've got a good range of views on exec 
439
440that span those of JDC
44127/11/2015, 13:42 - J Malawana: But that's what I knew. It's not going 
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443to have a lot of people unsure and unclear etc.
44427/11/2015, 13:42 - A Borbora: If the memorandum is tight they'll be 
445
446fine
44727/11/2015, 13:43 - A Borbora: The reason I said no was the memorandum 
448
449hasn't been seen yet 
450If that ties them down this is the best outcome
45127/11/2015, 13:43 - L J Davis: We also have to have agreement that hunt 
452
453isn't going to inflame everyone via media crap
45427/11/2015, 13:44 - L J Davis: Plus on our spin we need to remember the 
455
456"23".
45727/11/2015, 13:44 - A Yassaee: That's never going to be possible...
45827/11/2015, 13:44 - J Malawana: Which Arrash?
45927/11/2015, 13:44 - A Yassaee: The agreement about Hunt
46027/11/2015, 13:45 - L J Davis: (I know that really, at rash, but I'm 
461
462ever hopeful...)
46327/11/2015, 13:45 - A Yassaee: I don't even know how you could begin to 
464
465codify that
46627/11/2015, 13:45 - C Bell: Vocal cord paralysis?
46727/11/2015, 13:45 - L J Davis: Sorry -autocorrect- Arrash oops!
46827/11/2015, 13:46 - A Borbora: Even if we could he'd demand the same 
469
470and out members would destroy us 
471Just can't be done
47227/11/2015, 13:46 - L J Davis: It would be enough to tip the membership 
473
474into absolute apoplexy...
47527/11/2015, 13:47 - L J Davis: It's about trust, I guess. & the fact we 
476
477still have the mandate to strike, of course...
47827/11/2015, 13:52 - A Borbora: Let's see.
47927/11/2015, 13:55 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Everything IS possible. We are in 
480
481a real position of strength and we seem to be making decisions within a 
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483timeline imposed upon us by DH. Very concerned. On previous decisions 
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485we made the right calls because we spent a good amount of time on them 
486
487and because we involved as wide a group of people as possible. Todays 
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489offer is a clear ploy with the sole aim of us squandering our mandate. 
490
491We seem to be second guessing the governments intentions and the 
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493media's intentions rather than ensuring that we have a robustly worded 
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495and explicit document in front of us. I accept that an indicative vote 
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497took place (in this very rushed meeting). Lots more to do. Apologies 
498
499for this long msge. Off to charge my phone and have lunch. Speak soon.
50027/11/2015, 13:56 - L J Davis: We are not squandering a mandate, tho, 
501
502yannis. We've got an extension... And I'll be the first to walk away if 
503
504we're not getting what we want from the negs...
50527/11/2015, 13:57 - L J Davis: I've always been opposed to negs (before 
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507HoT, etc); but we have to do it; and now is the best window of 
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509opportunity we've got.
51027/11/2015, 14:04 - A Borbora: I voted no because we hadn't seen the 
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512memo. If it is as good as johann suggests then this really is victory. 
513We've said to people we'll address the 5 concerns. As long as it does 
514
515it's great
51627/11/2015, 14:06 - K Mohan: Guys, I'm reluctant to mute this group in 
517
518case there is an important decision/announcement etc but can we ensure 
519
520we don't end up with 600 or so messages or the important stuff will get 
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522lost in the backlog of messages - and the point of the group will be 
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524redundant. Thanks.
52527/11/2015, 15:13 - J Malawana: I am trying to work out some of Yannis' 
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527and co's concerns. It's not a good thing to do but if I can strengthen 
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529the unilateral imposition language then hopefully it makes Yannis' 
530
531concerns less of a problem.
53227/11/2015, 15:13 - J Malawana: Am trying. Let me see.
53327/11/2015, 15:16 - A Borbora: Yes agree that makes it more acceptable 
534For me though I think it's all about the memorandum at this stage. 
535
536It'll carry members. 
537Good luck!
53827/11/2015, 15:17 - D Tooth: Will catch up on all of these later. Let 
539
540me know if another is happening
54127/11/2015, 17:27 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Chat tmro guys. Am going into 
542
543omcall have just posted to exec listservr.
54427/11/2015, 17:27 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Thanks again johann
54527/11/2015, 17:29 - C Castles: That was a short email Yannis?
54627/11/2015, 17:31 - Y Gourtsouyannis: :-)
54727/11/2015, 17:45 - J Malawana: I don't want to respond to the 
548
549listserver as its not as private as this. 
550
551I share some of Yannis' concerns. Of course I do. As do all of us I 
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553know. The question I needed to balance is whether we could genuinely 
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555extract the best deal. I think we have got the best deal as I have 
556
557spent the last two days reading these guys back and forth. We needed 
558
559the best starting point for negs and I genuinely think that's what we 
560
561have. 
562
563I also think in negs we are going to have to extract as much as 
564
565possible and looking at the parties on the other side I think we have 
566
567them in a position to do that. Ultimately as the BMA that's the job. 
568
569Get the best deal for members even if it makes you unpopular. I never 
570
571expected or wanted the popularity. I wanted us to do the job which is 
572
573to extract the largest pound of flesh We could get away with. 
574
575I will face the abuse and will need to spend sometime dealing with 
576
577that. But I genuinely think we have a deal that we have truly prized 
578
579out of their hands.
58027/11/2015, 17:47 - A Sami: Thank you, Johann.
581
582
583Any update on the imposition threat get around is?
584
585Amjad
58627/11/2015, 17:47 - K Mohan: Is there a deal then?
58727/11/2015, 17:47 - K Mohan: Was the memorandum ok?
58827/11/2015, 17:49 - Z Greaves: Would be helpful to have a heads up on 
589
590when to expect it to break so we can all be ready on fb and Twitter to 
591
592try and steer the flow of consciousness in a sensible direction
59327/11/2015, 17:52 - J Malawana: I know. They are having to get hunt and 
594
595higher to agree as what we asked for.
59627/11/2015, 17:56 - A Yassaee: Sorry if I've missed it in this thread 
597
598but when would we expect an announcement?  Monday i presume?
59927/11/2015, 17:56 - A Sami: I thought that what they have done this 
600
601afternoon?
602
603This negotiation tactics of I have to check with the boss is an old one 
604
605from the book!
606
607Amjad
60827/11/2015, 17:57 - Z Greaves: I'd be very surprised if it wasn't 
609
610tonight ... Tho that is speculation on my part
61127/11/2015, 17:59 - E McCourt: So it doesn't fall off the radar...We 
612
613need to tell JDC before release to press/social media
61427/11/2015, 18:08 - A Yassaee: Agree with Ellen. Even if its five 
615
616minutes before.
61727/11/2015, 18:09 - A Borbora: Very good suggestion, Ellen
61827/11/2015, 18:10 - E McCourt: (It was Melody's just much higher up 
619
620this group)
62127/11/2015, 18:12 - D Rouse: So
62227/11/2015, 18:12 - D Rouse: Have we cancelled the day of action
62327/11/2015, 18:17 - K Mohan: Surely not until it is agreed?
62427/11/2015, 18:22 - C Castles: Its still going to have an effect though 
625
626- its now Friday evening, Monday morning will be too late to repopulate 
627
628the cancelled surgery and outpatient lists, patients will still have 
629
630been inconvenienced. Might be a rather easy day to work now
63127/11/2015, 18:26 - J Malawana: It's going to have to come out tonight.
63227/11/2015, 18:27 - J Malawana: No way round that.
63327/11/2015, 18:27 - K Mohan: Is it definite then, Johann?
63427/11/2015, 18:27 - K Mohan: Agree JDC should know first. Even 
635
636marginally.
63727/11/2015, 18:27 - D Rouse: Yeah
63827/11/2015, 18:27 - C Castles: Are we able to find out exactly what has 
639
640been said /agreed?
64127/11/2015, 18:27 - D Rouse: I think they should be told first
64227/11/2015, 18:28 - K Mohan: The very real question is if they will be 
643
644able to be told first?
64527/11/2015, 18:28 - K Mohan: Johann, I have an off listserver list of 
646
647email addresses if you want them.
64827/11/2015, 18:28 - H Carter: Has Hunt et al 'accepted' the statement 
649
650and memorandum? Were there any changes in our favour or otherwise to 
651
652the statement?
65327/11/2015, 18:31 - C Bell: Sorry, is this definite?
65427/11/2015, 18:34 - E McCourt: Uncertain. Don't know anything for sure 
655
656just now. Waiting for Johann to tell us what has happened, what is 
657
658happening, when it's happening, and what we as exec need to do.
65927/11/2015, 18:37 - Y Gourtsouyannis: This urgency is entirely 
660
661artificial. We all need to get into a room tomorrow. This is us 
662
663fiddling to DH tune. If despite this message this IS happening today 
664
665please call every single JDC member individually and tell them Johann. 
666
667There is no good reason why DH is putting the screw on (whatever this 
668
669is) this to be today.
67027/11/2015, 18:39 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Call every single Jdc Member
67127/11/2015, 18:39 - Y Gourtsouyannis: I repeat. Call them. And email. 
672
673No cursory emails 5 mins before the news.
67427/11/2015, 18:40 - D Rouse: If the offer is there take it or leave it
67527/11/2015, 18:40 - D Rouse: Johan has a mandate from exec
67627/11/2015, 18:41 - D Rouse: He has a a roll call vote to act with
67727/11/2015, 18:42 - A Yassaee: The screw will probably be because the 
678
679announcement will have to run up formal approvement channels between DH 
680
681and essentially treasury/PM's office in time for monday and from 
682
683experience that is awfully slow. I don't know how much of that has 
684
685happened already though but two days is actually quite rapid 
686
687turnaround.
68827/11/2015, 18:47 - D Rouse: I want it to be discussed guys
68927/11/2015, 18:48 - D Rouse: Don't get me wrong I really do
69027/11/2015, 18:48 - D Rouse: I think the more democratic the better
69127/11/2015, 18:48 - D Rouse: But if it just isn't possible
69227/11/2015, 18:48 - D Rouse: Then we have to have faith in Johann and 
693
694let him use that mandate
69527/11/2015, 18:49 - D Rouse: So please if it can be discussed let's 
696
697have it discussed openly like Yanis has said
69827/11/2015, 18:50 - D Rouse: That needs to be the first priority and 
699
700only the other way if there is no other choice
70127/11/2015, 18:54 - C Castles: Can anyone give me an idea what we're 
702
703needing to do this evening please ? I need to plan if I'm picking up 
704
705the boys from their grandparents house or not
70627/11/2015, 19:00 - Y Gourtsouyannis: To clarify:   1.memorandum should 
707
708be seen by exec before final signoff. 2. Should b discussed with JDC.  
709
7103.if for whatever reason cannot then JDC MUST b INFORMED at least in 
711
712good time. 4. Explain reasons for the time urgency of all of this. 5. 
713
714Explain why urgent jdc meeting cannot be called for tmro.
71527/11/2015, 19:06 - L Boyle: Coming late to this discussion since I'm 
716
717on hols with intermittent wifi in Dubai atm - I'll take it something 
718
719big has gone down then? To put it mildly! At least I have 2h of reading 
720
721now for the trip back to Abu Dhabi
72227/11/2015, 19:06 - L Boyle: <scrolling> ...at least 2h?
72327/11/2015, 19:18 - A Collins: Ring me if you want updated?
72427/11/2015, 19:23 - J Malawana: God they actually may actually be 
725
726backing out!
72727/11/2015, 19:23 - A Collins: Of the memorandum?!
72827/11/2015, 19:23 - J Malawana: Keep this entirely private.
72927/11/2015, 19:23 - J Malawana: Of the whole thing!
73027/11/2015, 19:24 - H Carter: What does that mean, exactly?
73127/11/2015, 19:24 - M Redman: ??
73227/11/2015, 19:25 - C Castles: What?
73327/11/2015, 19:26 - C Bell: Holy Mary
73427/11/2015, 19:31 - J Malawana: Call in a bit.
73527/11/2015, 19:31 - T Crocker-Buque: Then we strike.
73627/11/2015, 19:31 - D Rouse: Hahahaha they're backing out of the offer
73727/11/2015, 19:31 - D Rouse: What on earth
73827/11/2015, 19:32 - J Malawana: Yannis may end up being best friends 
739
740with hunt!
74127/11/2015, 19:32 - C Bell: Lets await the result.
74227/11/2015, 19:38 - D Tooth: Guys what's happening are we calling
74327/11/2015, 20:00 - J Malawana: Scopia. 617025
74427/11/2015, 20:01 - H Carter: Phone number please, I'm on a train.
74527/11/2015, 20:01 - J Malawana: 02030333912
74627/11/2015, 20:02 - J Malawana: Now
74727/11/2015, 20:02 - J Malawana: 15 minutes.
74827/11/2015, 20:02 - J Malawana: Can all of you call each other to tell 
749
750in case no one reads this
75127/11/2015, 20:03 - M Redman: I'll start from the top of the lost on 
752
753the what's app group, does someone want to start from bottom
75427/11/2015, 20:03 - A Sami: OK
75527/11/2015, 20:04 - A Sami: I am at work, so might be able to join you
75627/11/2015, 20:05 - B Roberts: Glad I went for dinner early, see you on 
757
758VC shortly.
75927/11/2015, 20:07 - L J Davis: I've sent texts to david & Donna.
76027/11/2015, 20:07 - L J Davis: Ellen knows
76127/11/2015, 20:07 - K Mohan: I've text Andrew
76227/11/2015, 20:07 - H Carter: I've left a voicemail on Donna's phone
76327/11/2015, 20:07 - H Carter: And called Kitty
76427/11/2015, 20:07 - K Mohan: Everyone has told Ellen.
76527/11/2015, 20:08 - L J Davis: I told her first ??
76627/11/2015, 20:08 - C Castles: Hmm,when is the meeting? I'm all on my 
767
768own
76927/11/2015, 20:08 - L J Davis: 7 mins x
77027/11/2015, 20:08 - C Castles: Ah
77127/11/2015, 20:09 - C Castles: I'll see you all soon then
77227/11/2015, 20:10 - A Yassaee: Right just got this.  I'm in 5%battery 
773
774and on the tube
77527/11/2015, 20:15 - C Sheridan: Thanks guys will dial in 2 mins!
77627/11/2015, 20:15 - A Collins: Haha, ignore your vm from me!
77727/11/2015, 20:20 - A Yassaee: I'm on 4% battery so let me know when  
778
779by text so i can dial in
78027/11/2015, 20:22 - C Bell: Yes I'm under the sea so ditto
78127/11/2015, 20:41 - E McCourt: Who just joined on the phone?
78227/11/2015, 20:48 - A Yassaee: I am about to run out of battery
78327/11/2015, 20:48 - A Yassaee: Please send an update of you can
78427/11/2015, 20:48 - A Yassaee: If*
78527/11/2015, 20:50 - H Carter: Arrash back on
78627/11/2015, 20:50 - H Carter: I'm going underground and will call back 
787
788in when I'm out.
78927/11/2015, 20:51 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Am on telephone listening so 
790
791apologies as cannot see anybody. May i contribute a  statement whenever 
792
793is appropriate.
79427/11/2015, 20:55 - A Yassaee: Sorry I've managed to restart my phone 
795
796but doubt it'll last
79727/11/2015, 20:58 - A Collins: Is organ grinder relativity related to 
798
799special relativity?
80027/11/2015, 21:01 - C Castles: Thank frig that's over
80127/11/2015, 21:01 - C Castles: ;-)
80227/11/2015, 21:02 - B Roberts: Scotland dissed you, NI!
80327/11/2015, 21:02 - T Crocker-Buque: Good work all
80427/11/2015, 21:02 - C Castles: The actual Scotland? Or the interloper 
805
806in Scotland?
80727/11/2015, 21:03 - B Roberts: The interloper. I wasn't the original 
808
809grass!
81027/11/2015, 21:03 - A Collins: :D
81127/11/2015, 21:04 - C Castles: He's drinking rum, he can't be trusted
81227/11/2015, 21:04 - B Roberts: Not gin, AC?
81327/11/2015, 21:08 - C Sheridan: Like id ever diss you conan. Cant 
814
815believe you had to ask
81627/11/2015, 21:08 - C Castles: True, sorry Chris
81727/11/2015, 21:09 - A Collins: Nah, rum tonight :)
81827/11/2015, 21:10 - C Castles: We should have an exec drinking game 
819
820where we all drink when someone says Hunt
82127/11/2015, 21:10 - C Castles: Or neoliberal
82227/11/2015, 21:11 - C Sheridan: Or "firm assurance"
82327/11/2015, 21:11 - C Castles: Or "who's just joined "
82427/11/2015, 21:12 - B Roberts: Ha! I've just found the Guardian 
825
826article...
82727/11/2015, 21:12 - A Collins: Link?
82827/11/2015, 21:12 - C Castles: Where?
82927/11/2015, 21:13 - B Roberts: I just googled Guardian and Johann and 
830
831found it. Reading on my laptop so can't be arsed to post link on phone!
83227/11/2015, 21:13 - M Redman: I'm reading it now, it's beautiful
83327/11/2015, 21:13 - M Redman: Totes emosh
83427/11/2015, 21:13 - M Redman: It's on johanns fb page
83527/11/2015, 21:13 - B Roberts: It's quite nice so far, haven't got to 
836
837the end.
83827/11/2015, 21:14 - C Bell: 
839
840http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/nov/27/junior-doctors-leader-
841
842johann-malawana-nhs-strikes-interview?CMP=twt_gu
84327/11/2015, 21:14 - C Castles: A few months ago he was an obscure 
844
845obstetrician?
84627/11/2015, 21:14 - C Castles: That one?
84727/11/2015, 21:14 - B Roberts: Yes!
84827/11/2015, 21:15 - C Castles: Apparently being a junior Dr was your 
849
850previous job Johann
85127/11/2015, 21:16 - ?L Elliott: So what's happened? Aaron and I were 
852
853just tucking into a chocolate tart with cinnamon wafer
85427/11/2015, 21:17 - C Castles: That's all we did too
85527/11/2015, 21:18 - M Redman: Nothing. Hopefully find out more tm. 
856
857Johann has asked us to be available over next 48h.
858
859Enjoy your tart.??
86027/11/2015, 21:20 - C Sheridan: Thats an awful thing to call Aaron 
861
862Melody??
86327/11/2015, 21:20 - C Castles: Haha
86427/11/2015, 21:21 - C Castles: He's more vanilla than chocolate though
86527/11/2015, 21:21 - H Carter: Ask asking whether you'll be at MSC 
866
867tomorrow, Johann a stupid question?
86827/11/2015, 21:21 - H Carter: * Is
86927/11/2015, 21:21 - C Castles: Or maybe lemon
87027/11/2015, 21:21 - C Bell: Yeh good point Harry
87127/11/2015, 21:22 - B Roberts: Have we all gone a bit mental?!
87227/11/2015, 21:22 - C Bell: Seriously, is it likely?
87327/11/2015, 21:22 - M Redman: He said on Scopia that he was there for 
874
875Msc but guess depends if he gets called out.
87627/11/2015, 21:23 - M Redman: (My holding answer til he replies)
87727/11/2015, 21:23 - C Bell: Righto thanks
87827/11/2015, 21:23 - C Sheridan: Next you'll be going on about his cream 
879
880filling Conan. Its the stress Bethan! Remember humour is a mature 
881
882defence mechanism! ?
88327/11/2015, 21:23 - B Roberts: Hahaha!
88427/11/2015, 21:24 - M Redman: We're probably blurred in the background 
885
886of his 1500 whatsapp msgs per day
887
888I'm on 11 bma whatsapp groups and I thought that was bad.
88927/11/2015, 21:24 - C Sheridan: And sorry Aaron and Lottie i hope youre 
890
891having a lovely night. Im just cranky because no1 gave me cake
89227/11/2015, 21:25 - Z Greaves: Wow been away from phone for 2 hours and 
893
894what a journey!! Sorry I missed
89527/11/2015, 21:26 - M Redman: Zoe I tried to ring you sorry :(
896 Johann has asked us to try to be available over next 48h
89727/11/2015, 21:29 - Z Greaves: Ah ok I'll try - but if I'm not 
898
899available assume I voted with whatever Johann says - we elected him we 
900
901have to trust him
90227/11/2015, 22:13 - ?L Elliott: So what was the outcome??
90327/11/2015, 22:13 - K Mohan: There isn't one. It continues tomorrow.
90427/11/2015, 22:18 - A Collins: Govt still deciding whether to accept 
905
906the joint statement/memorandum as proposed by/agreed at ACAS
90727/11/2015, 22:32 - ?L Elliott: I thought they (government) were 
908
909proposing it in the first place. I still stand by my view that day 1 
910
911should not be postponed. They are playing games.
91227/11/2015, 22:33 - ?L Elliott: Cinnamon wafers very good by the way
91327/11/2015, 22:33 - C Castles: Is it as good as pear and cardamom cake?
91427/11/2015, 22:34 - A Collins: ??
91527/11/2015, 22:35 - ?L Elliott: Better
91627/11/2015, 22:51 - K Mohan: Hmpf. I'm still sulking about my poor 
917
918cake.
91927/11/2015, 22:52 - E McCourt: Conan sounded pretty keen to try it...
92027/11/2015, 22:52 - K Mohan: "Pretty keen"...
92127/11/2015, 22:53 - K Mohan: I hate you all. Apart from Bethan (some of 
922
923the time).
92427/11/2015, 22:54 - A Collins: Naww. DW, we know :)
92527/11/2015, 22:54 - ?L Elliott: But it was one of those situations 
926
927where you try to get a bit of it and it breaks everywhere and you end 
928
929up with half of it half way across the table
93027/11/2015, 22:54 - ?L Elliott: What of this other cake?
93127/11/2015, 22:54 - C Castles: I want to try your cake now kitty
93227/11/2015, 22:55 - K Mohan: I made a cake. They were all mean. I hate 
933
934them all. End of.
93527/11/2015, 22:55 - C Castles: I said nothing at the time
93627/11/2015, 22:55 - C Castles: Verbally
93727/11/2015, 22:55 - K Mohan: I think you're up to speed on all the 
938
939important developments of the day now Lottie... :(
94027/11/2015, 22:55 - A Collins: I said you sounded like someone off bake 
941
942off... So...
94327/11/2015, 22:55 - K Mohan: :) even
94427/11/2015, 22:56 - C Bell: Guys I'm using my data for this so can we 
945
946keep it to the point? Sorry to be a pain
94727/11/2015, 23:33 - B Roberts: Kit, we forgot to remind you to take 
948
949your cake out of the oven. Is it ok?
95028/11/2015, 00:09 - A Borbora: ??????????????????
951Classic
95228/11/2015, 13:29 - Z Greaves: Any news so far today?
95328/11/2015, 15:48 - D Tooth: No good then today!! Just saw email to jdc
95428/11/2015, 15:48 - A Collins: When you say "increasingly unlikely"  is 
955
956that cos something has happened?
95728/11/2015, 16:06 - A Borbora: It shows what these people are like. 
958
959They are always up to something and cannot be trusted. It's a classic 
960
961tactic from them - offer something then rescind it. 
962I'm sure johann will up date us when he can but no point in speculating 
963
964until he's able to tell us the facts
96528/11/2015, 16:58 - A Collins: Yeah I know :(
96628/11/2015, 17:39 - J Malawana: Ok need to know people's movements of 
967
968Monday.
96928/11/2015, 17:39 - K Mohan: Can be around if needed.
97028/11/2015, 17:40 - A Borbora: Fairly free
97128/11/2015, 17:41 - J Malawana: I have said to the DH, nhse and to be 
972
973passed to the sos I am no longer feeling confident about the ability to 
974
975sign off an agreement unilaterally without a formal vote of the JDC 
976
977exec. So if they need to give me the assurances I have asked for then 
978
979so I can put it to the executive.
98028/11/2015, 17:42 - A Collins: At work, but can get cover, and can 
981
982definitely do teleconference
98328/11/2015, 17:42 - E McCourt: On nights. Can VC/TC as needed.
98428/11/2015, 17:42 - D Tooth: Day in surgery should finish at about 7
98528/11/2015, 17:42 - K Mohan: Sensible. Glad you've done that. I'll prob 
986
987come in person. Doubt wise to VC/TC in from Richmond house...
98828/11/2015, 17:43 - J Malawana: I think we have got really far in terms 
989
990of actual deal. But it's what they are willing to put to the public as 
991
992basically they have conceded so much now that they feel hunt is totally 
993
994humiliated and looks like a total climb down.
99528/11/2015, 17:43 - C Bell: Yep can do
99628/11/2015, 17:43 - K Mohan: Can we set a time for the meeting ASAP? So 
997
998we can plan.
99928/11/2015, 17:43 - A Collins: Think that's a great call btw Johann
100028/11/2015, 17:44 - J Malawana: It's actually worked out in timing as 
1001
1002the sos blinking like he did has made my ability to put it to the 
1003
1004executive almost completely without question.
100528/11/2015, 17:44 - J Malawana: Given all that I still don't think it 
1006
1007will be enough for a lot of our members.
100828/11/2015, 17:45 - J Malawana: I think our members will want us to 
1009
1010give them the moon on a stick.
101128/11/2015, 17:45 - A Yassaee: Or a Tory head.
101228/11/2015, 17:46 - C Castles: I want the moon on a stick,that sounds 
1013
1014good
101528/11/2015, 17:46 - D Tooth: I am unlikely to be able to call in or be 
1016
1017available in the day
101828/11/2015, 17:46 - J Malawana: That they will get.
101928/11/2015, 17:47 - J Malawana: I think it's now just a question of 
1020
1021when. Grant shapps resignation gives Cameron the opportunity to do the 
1022
1023reshuffle.
102428/11/2015, 17:47 - C Castles: I'll be in bma ni office from about 12 
1025
1026on Monday, have nijdc strategy meeting, so can VC whenever I need to
102728/11/2015, 17:48 - C Castles: You think hunt is going?
102828/11/2015, 17:49 - A Yassaee: (Incidentally I am post take that day 
1029
1030but I will ask my team what the chances of sneaking away are).
103128/11/2015, 17:49 - J Malawana: Hunt is dead whatever happens. The 
1032
1033question is when. His time was over once we did the acas stuff and he 
1034
1035reacted in the wrong way. Like I said last night. His moves have been 
1036
1037stupid. It's just scary that he isn't reacting the way he should do and 
1038
1039I would predict he needs to.
104028/11/2015, 17:49 - J Malawana: It's stupid mistakes that are 
1041
1042unnecessary.
104328/11/2015, 17:52 - C Castles: Can we request Boris replaces him? I 
1044
1045think that'd be fun
104628/11/2015, 17:53 - M Redman: I have acf interview at 11 but on annual 
1047
1048leave for rest of day so any time PM should be fine
104928/11/2015, 17:54 - H Carter: As an aside, how sure can we actually be 
1050
1051that Hunt will go (not that this relates to us wanting him to leave 
1052
1053post)? Remember, he survived blatant corruption in relation to b sky b 
1054
1055and was promoted. Cameron likes him.
105628/11/2015, 17:54 - Y Gourtsouyannis: I am working at UCH. Quite a few 
1057
1058spr's around so if needed i will be able to jig over to bma house 
1059
1060within either 5 or 10mins...how fast depending on whether have had 
1061
1062breakfast or not!
106328/11/2015, 17:55 - C Castles: I assume he would still have a job, just 
1064
1065not in health. Maybe
106628/11/2015, 17:55 - T Crocker-Buque: <Media omitted>
106728/11/2015, 17:56 - T Crocker-Buque: Wonder whether Schapps will be as 
1068
1069sycophantic in Hunts political obit
107028/11/2015, 17:57 - A Collins: I second the call for Boris. Happy to 
1071
1072use common past to further our cause...
107328/11/2015, 18:09 - B Roberts: I'll be trapped in my surgery all day on 
1074
1075Monday with no mobile signal and no wifi so unlikely to be able to 
1076
1077contribute. Good work, Johann!
107828/11/2015, 18:16 - A Borbora: Can we have a time ASAP?
107928/11/2015, 18:17 - ?L Elliott: Monday I'm on study leave and have 
1080
1081management meeting for IA at 3.30 at hospital
108228/11/2015, 18:18 - Z Greaves: I'm either working from home or en route 
1083
1084to london so should be around
108528/11/2015, 18:18 - A Sami: Anytime after 13:00 Amjad
108628/11/2015, 18:18 - J Malawana: I can't give a time am afraid. Likely 
1087
1088afternoon. It will need to be whoever is available.
108928/11/2015, 18:25 - L J Davis: I'm afraid I'm unlikely to be 
1090
1091available... I will try to join you if I can.
109228/11/2015, 19:21 - A Sami: Thank you, Johann (and everyone asked), for 
1093
1094sending that email to JDC an hour before the main one went out.
1095Amjad
109629/11/2015, 05:13 - H Carter: Strongest case that we have is ensuring 
1097
1098that all doctors are protected from working excessive hours that cause 
1099
1100unnecessary fatigue and lead to unsafe conditions for patients. It is 
1101
1102taking reckless risks with patient safety.
110329/11/2015, 09:35 - J Malawana: Ok so realise some people may not be 
1104
1105able to meet when necessary tomorrow. Shall we have a quick catch up at 
1106
1107some point today? Ideally this morning as Noah is currently watching 
1108
1109Peter rabbit so I have a bit of a window.
111029/11/2015, 09:35 - K Mohan: I really can't do this morning but I can 
1111
1112do tomorrow.
111329/11/2015, 09:36 - J Malawana: It's just for anyone that wants to. I 
1114
1115was going to take people through where I think I have got the DH and 
1116
1117nhse up to in terms of an offer, the basis of contract negs.
111829/11/2015, 09:37 - J Malawana: It also spreads the knowledge through 
1119
1120exec so we know where are starting point is likely to be.
112129/11/2015, 09:37 - D Tooth: I would be free this morning or all day 
1122
1123today and would appreciate it as know I won't be able to do tomorrow's
112429/11/2015, 09:41 - E McCourt: On a train... I can try and listen, but 
1125
1126tomorrow easier. Maybe do both?
112729/11/2015, 09:41 - K Mohan: Will tomorrow's still happen? (At whatever 
1128
1129time) and will the same info be given tomorrow.
113029/11/2015, 09:41 - J Malawana: It's not an either or. So whenever.
113129/11/2015, 09:41 - K Mohan: Sorry that was a question so '?'
113229/11/2015, 09:41 - J Malawana: Yes. Tomorrow will likely that they 
1133
1134will have an offer formally put to exec.
113529/11/2015, 09:42 - J Malawana: To call off IA.
113629/11/2015, 09:42 - J Malawana: Or postpone IA.
113729/11/2015, 09:43 - K Mohan: Ok. I'll see where I am this 
1138
1139morning/whenever you arrange a call. I just really need to drive back 
1140
1141from Portsmouth and there is a bit of a gale going on. :)
114229/11/2015, 09:43 - J Malawana: Ok so shall we say 10.15 for anyone 
1143
1144around?
114529/11/2015, 09:43 - J Malawana: Today
114629/11/2015, 09:44 - D Tooth: Sounds good
114729/11/2015, 09:46 - K Mohan: Is it the same numbers as last time? Can 
1148
1149you put the dial in nos here?
115029/11/2015, 09:46 - J Malawana: I am thinking of doing a drop in scopia 
1151
1152consultation for wider JDC this evening, thoughts? Not a formal meeting 
1153
1154but a way for members of JDC to call in and ask me questions? What are 
1155
1156the dangers of doing this?
115729/11/2015, 09:49 - C Castles: Hmmm, could be a good idea, but could 
1158
1159turn in to a bit of a general free for all, with everyone demanding 
1160
1161their own preconditions
116229/11/2015, 09:49 - C Castles: Plus it's much more likely to mean 
1163
1164something gets leaked
116529/11/2015, 09:54 - K Mohan: I think on one level it would be good and 
1166
1167transparent and everything everyone is asking for. 
1168
1169However you have to be clear (to them and you) eg why you are doing it- 
1170
1171to impart info not make a decision by committee. And how you may answer 
1172
1173their questions. And the leak thing but I'm less convinced by that.,
1174
1175I'd consider circulating an outline off listserver,
117629/11/2015, 09:54 - Z Greaves: Liz you risk people appearing half way 
1177
1178through discussion and getting a partial story or the wrong end of the 
1179
1180stick - might be an idea as a meeting for those available but I'm not 
1181
1182sure a drop in would work
118329/11/2015, 09:54 - K Mohan: By email I mean and get people to respond 
1184
1185back to you directly. OFF listserver.
118629/11/2015, 09:54 - K Mohan: Also what do you do if people cannot make 
1187
1188the session?
118929/11/2015, 09:55 - Z Greaves: *Tho not Liz
119029/11/2015, 09:56 - E McCourt: Might be logistically impossible, but 
1191
1192could you allocate each RJDC a time slot and invite any or all of their 
1193
1194reps, give a brief (brief!) update and questions?
119529/11/2015, 09:57 - E McCourt: Stops a massive group, group think, 
1196
1197people joining half way etc.
119829/11/2015, 10:09 - D Tooth: Are we dialling in or scopia
119929/11/2015, 10:14 - J Malawana: 617025
120029/11/2015, 10:14 - J Malawana: Give me 5 minutes b
120129/11/2015, 10:17 - M Redman: Sorry can't join (church) but should be 
1202
1203able to join tm
120429/11/2015, 10:20 - C Castles: Are we able to telephone in?
120529/11/2015, 10:23 - J Malawana: I don't have the number so probably not
120629/11/2015, 10:23 - J Malawana: Am logged in
120729/11/2015, 10:24 - J Malawana: No one here
120829/11/2015, 10:25 - Z Greaves: Ditto church this morn sorry folks
120929/11/2015, 10:28 - C Castles: I'm joining in just a moment
121029/11/2015, 10:30 - C Castles: Though my signal will be poor, I'll turn 
1211
1212off video
121329/11/2015, 10:51 - A Collins: Worth me joining?
121429/11/2015, 10:52 - A Collins: Just woke up :/
121529/11/2015, 11:05 - C Castles: Yeah, if you can
121629/11/2015, 11:05 - C Castles: Still talking
121729/11/2015, 11:11 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Hello all...just seen all this. 
1218
1219Is the scopia chat still happening? Is tomorrow still happening? Is 
1220
1221there going to be an email off listerver to which everyone can respond?
122229/11/2015, 11:55 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Aaron gave a great summary of the 
1223
1224meeting Johann. Johann...when a memorandum is available for discussion 
1225
1226with Exec plus/minus JDC please can a written version be circulated to 
1227
1228us for review asap and as far as possible in advance before the exec 
1229
1230meeting tmro...whether its tonight, 2am today or even half and hour 
1231
1232before the meeting. If at all possible. Thanks.
123329/11/2015, 11:57 - J Malawana: Again Yannis that's very unlikely. The 
1234
1235realities of this situation are such that we will be down to the wire
123629/11/2015, 11:57 - J Malawana: As soon as it is available I will try 
1237
1238and circulate.
123929/11/2015, 11:58 - J Malawana: But you need to be prepared to be 
1240
1241making decisions with little notice. It's the realities of the politics 
1242
1243at this level.
124429/11/2015, 11:58 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Recognise that u can only do what 
1245
1246is possible. Thanks for trying ur best and keep doing it.
124729/11/2015, 12:13 - Y Gourtsouyannis: If quick decisions are needed no 
1248
1249prob with that.
125029/11/2015, 12:41 - D Rouse: Just had journalist on the phone
125129/11/2015, 12:42 - A Collins: Saaaaying?
125229/11/2015, 12:42 - C Bell: Fishing?
125329/11/2015, 12:42 - D Rouse: That the government are going to use army 
1254
1255doctors
125629/11/2015, 12:42 - D Rouse: To supply the hospitals
125729/11/2015, 12:42 - D Rouse: Would I like to comment
125829/11/2015, 12:42 - D Rouse: My answer = no
125929/11/2015, 12:42 - C Bell: That was in torygraph today
126029/11/2015, 12:42 - D Rouse: Please contact the media office
126129/11/2015, 12:43 - A Collins: Good callm
126229/11/2015, 12:43 - A Collins: I understand that there may well be army 
1263
1264Medical training on IA days.
126529/11/2015, 12:47 - J Malawana: Yes. They are saying that.
126629/11/2015, 12:52 - A Borbora: I spoke to the defence dean about this 
1267
1268at COPMED. 
1269There are only 450 of them and they'll be working normally
127029/11/2015, 12:53 - A Borbora: They always were going to be working and 
1271
1272we knew that. Both johann and I have spoken with Glynn Evans from armed 
1273
1274forces committee about it and assured him our messaging would make it 
1275
1276clear they were simply doing their duty, which I hope we all agreed it 
1277
1278has.
127929/11/2015, 12:55 - C Bell: The suggestion is that they'll replace 
1280
1281hospital doctors
128229/11/2015, 12:58 - Y Gourtsouyannis: That of course is the way it will 
1283
1284b spun
128529/11/2015, 13:00 - A Borbora: How could 450 of them replace 50,000 of 
1286
1287us? 
1288They can't go into random hospitals either - only where they already 
1289
1290work
129129/11/2015, 13:02 - C Bell: I'm simply saying what's in the telegraph 
1292
1293today
129429/11/2015, 13:03 - A Borbora: Journalists be misleading? Never!
129529/11/2015, 13:25 - B Roberts: Oops, just caught up with all of this...
129629/11/2015, 14:30 - J Malawana: Genuine question. Is there any chance I 
1297
1298can convene an exec this evening if needed?
129929/11/2015, 14:30 - D Rouse: Yes
130029/11/2015, 14:30 - C Castles: I can, if needed
130129/11/2015, 14:31 - ?L Elliott: Aaron and I can
130229/11/2015, 14:31 - A Collins: Amazon delivered my new VC headset, so 
1303
1304yes.
130529/11/2015, 14:31 - K Mohan: Yes
130629/11/2015, 14:31 - C Castles: We all just sit by our phones waiting 
1307
1308for updates anyway
130929/11/2015, 14:31 - H Carter: Yes
131029/11/2015, 14:31 - J Malawana: David, Aaron, Lottie, Conan can you 
1311
1312call around and make sure those that aren't checking are free?
131329/11/2015, 14:32 - H Carter: What Conan said
131429/11/2015, 14:32 - C Sheridan: Should be able to. Bit of advance 
1315
1316notice of time would help
131729/11/2015, 14:32 - C Castles: Will do
131829/11/2015, 14:34 - A Sami: Up to 1900 when I go to work, sadly
131929/11/2015, 14:35 - A Yassaee: Travelling tonight but will phone in if 
1320
1321im overground
132229/11/2015, 14:37 - C Castles: Donna knows and bethan has been texted
132329/11/2015, 14:39 - B Roberts: Yep, I can make this evening. Roughly 
1324
1325what time are we thinking? I'm off down the pool so won't be able to 
1326
1327check in for two hours, catch up with you all later.
132829/11/2015, 14:46 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Am free
132929/11/2015, 14:48 - A Borbora: I've texted 
1330Ellen 
1331Arrash 
1332Kitty
1333Andrew collier 
1334Melody 
1335Luke 
1336Yannis 
1337Zoe
133829/11/2015, 14:49 - C Castles: Kitty said she was free already
133929/11/2015, 14:53 - D Tooth: I am free and awaiting my summoning. 
1340
1341You're very demanding Johann!
134229/11/2015, 14:57 - M Redman: Yes. I can be free if needed.
134329/11/2015, 15:03 - A Collier I can be free as required. Can be free 
1344
1345from 4pm
134629/11/2015, 15:03 - T Crocker-Buque: Can be around
134729/11/2015, 15:11 - Z Greaves: I should be free from about 16.30
134829/11/2015, 15:39 - L J Davis: No one texted me. I feel very unloved. I 
1349
1350can be free, tho ??
135129/11/2015, 16:06 - J Malawana: 1700
135229/11/2015, 16:06 - J Malawana: Can we have the meeting them?
135329/11/2015, 16:06 - A Sami: ??
135429/11/2015, 16:06 - J Malawana: Then?
135529/11/2015, 16:07 - M Redman: ????
135629/11/2015, 16:07 - D Rouse: Yes
135729/11/2015, 16:07 - A Borbora: Lottie and I are yes
135829/11/2015, 16:07 - A Yassaee: Sure
135929/11/2015, 16:08 - K Mohan: Yup
136029/11/2015, 16:09 - C Castles: Just because I'm being impatient, has 
1361
1362something happened since this morning's meeting?
136329/11/2015, 16:09 - A Collins: Grand
136429/11/2015, 16:11 - Y Gourtsouyannis: 5pm it is
136529/11/2015, 16:12 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Codes etc?
136629/11/2015, 16:12 - L J Davis: Yep- got a text too :) x
136729/11/2015, 16:30 - B Roberts: Do you feel loved now, LJD?! See you all 
1368
1369at 5pm.
137029/11/2015, 16:38 - D Tooth: Yea that's fine
137129/11/2015, 16:39 - A Collins: Same Scopia as before?
137229/11/2015, 16:39 - M Redman: Which one??
137329/11/2015, 16:40 - A Collins: 617025 is what we've been using to live 
1374
1375stream Johann's consciousness to the nation previously
137629/11/2015, 16:46 - T Crocker-Buque: Same TC number?
137729/11/2015, 16:48 - J Malawana: Ok Mark porter wants to join this 
1378
1379meeting :-).
138029/11/2015, 16:49 - J Malawana: So listen. I am going to suggest that 
1381
1382we have a 15 minute meeting where i circulate the documents.
138329/11/2015, 16:49 - K Mohan: Oh good. I remember what happened when he 
1384
1385joined our meeting in sept. Can you encourage him not to try and sway 
1386
1387us please?
138829/11/2015, 16:49 - J Malawana: Let mark have his say. And then I will 
1389
1390ask for us all to go away and reflect on the documents.
139129/11/2015, 16:50 - J Malawana: I will the reconvene the exec at 1800.
139229/11/2015, 16:50 - D Rouse: Ok
139329/11/2015, 16:50 - K Mohan: Without Mark?
139429/11/2015, 16:50 - A Collins: ????Weeeeeee shall, we shall not be 
1395
1396moved. ????
139729/11/2015, 16:50 - A Borbora: Very good plan
139829/11/2015, 16:50 - D Tooth: So hold on 5 with mark and documents and 
1399
1400then a break and again at 6?
140129/11/2015, 16:50 - A Collins: (sorry, that sounds very sensible 
1402
1403Johann)
140429/11/2015, 16:50 - C Castles: Lovely voice Adam
140529/11/2015, 16:50 - K Mohan: Sounds good.
140629/11/2015, 16:51 - J Malawana: You lot message me on here and tell me 
1407
1408whether you want a meeting without Mark.
140929/11/2015, 16:51 - A Collins: I'd like to hear from him but also have 
1410
1411time to discuss on our own.
141229/11/2015, 16:51 - J Malawana: But let's have him there first and then 
1413
1414work it out on here what we actually want to do.
141529/11/2015, 16:51 - K Mohan: It's fine as long as we can meet again as 
1416
1417you outline.
141829/11/2015, 16:51 - A Borbora: 1 with then follow up without
141929/11/2015, 16:52 - J Malawana: Ok then am going to suggest we use a 
1420
1421different scopia code.
142229/11/2015, 16:52 - K Mohan: I really don't mean to sound down on Mark. 
1423
1424But can you also let us know where you have a different take on things.
142529/11/2015, 16:52 - K Mohan: You may realise I speak from bitter 
1426
1427experience.
142829/11/2015, 16:52 - J Malawana: I know.
142929/11/2015, 16:53 - Y Gourtsouyannis: I second aarons request. First 
1430
1431with mark then without. All in moderation :-)
143229/11/2015, 16:53 - K Mohan: That was Johann's suggestion!
143329/11/2015, 16:53 - C Castles: Seems reasonable
143429/11/2015, 16:54 - J Malawana: Let's face it. Mark is Mark. Even the 
1435
1436guardian have published marks view on this. Which he hates. I have 
1437
1438spent nearly three months working around Mark so I totally know. But 
1439
1440let's play nice for now. I actually am not that bad with the agreement. 
1441
1442They have basically gone into full revers.
144329/11/2015, 16:54 - J Malawana: But I need to get your opinions 
1444
1445untainted by influence.
144629/11/2015, 16:54 - J Malawana: Right.
144729/11/2015, 16:55 - A Yassaee: What's TC deets?
144829/11/2015, 16:55 - A Collins: Ok spill the codes boss :)
144929/11/2015, 16:55 - J Malawana: Kitty have you got other codes?
145029/11/2015, 16:55 - J Malawana: Let's not give away the one we use all 
1451
1452the time.
145329/11/2015, 16:55 - K Mohan: 617012?
145429/11/2015, 16:55 - K Mohan: We use that one don't we though.
145529/11/2015, 16:56 - J Malawana: That's the corpe one so let's go with 
1456
1457that one.
145829/11/2015, 16:56 - K Mohan: Cool.
145929/11/2015, 16:56 - J Malawana: Am in.
146029/11/2015, 16:56 - T Crocker-Buque: Corpe room TC phone please
146129/11/2015, 16:58 - J Malawana: Can everyone type their email addresses 
1462
1463to the chat section.
146429/11/2015, 16:58 - J Malawana: On scopia.
146529/11/2015, 16:58 - Y Gourtsouyannis: What code do i put into scopia!
146629/11/2015, 16:58 - J Malawana: 617012
146729/11/2015, 16:59 - H Carter: Yes - I'll be on the train but that 
1468
1469should be fine
147029/11/2015, 17:00 - H Carter: What are the TC details
147129/11/2015, 17:00 - H Carter: You have provided the VC details but not 
1472
1473the TC ones
147429/11/2015, 17:00 - Y Gourtsouyannis: And when i say mark in moderation 
1475
1476i would add that my personal preference is NO mark at this point.
147729/11/2015, 17:01 - K Mohan: I have no idea.
147829/11/2015, 17:01 - K Mohan: We don't know.
147929/11/2015, 17:03 - H Carter: Okay so when somebody knows the TC 
1480
1481details I would appreciate if they could be sent to me
148229/11/2015, 17:04 - H Carter: I'm on a train (again) and can't VC
148329/11/2015, 17:04 - A Collins: I think the problem is there's no one at 
1484
1485BMA house
148629/11/2015, 17:04 - A Collins: Its the corpe room if you've ever had 
1487
1488that number written down before
148929/11/2015, 17:04 - H Carter: Okay - no I don't think that I have
149029/11/2015, 17:05 - K Mohan: It'll be the same as Friday lunch time's 
1491
1492meeting
149329/11/2015, 17:06 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Nothings happening on scopia frm 
1494
1495my end. Anybody else go thru?
149629/11/2015, 17:06 - K Mohan: Is it 02030 333911
149729/11/2015, 17:06 - D Tooth: Yes there are a number of us in
149829/11/2015, 17:06 - A Yassaee: Yep
149929/11/2015, 17:06 - A Collins: 02030 333911
150029/11/2015, 17:06 - C Castles: We're all here
150129/11/2015, 17:07 - A Collins: Yannis we're on 617012
150229/11/2015, 17:08 - A Yassaee: TC but can't get scopia working. If 
1503
1504someone could forward docs to arrash@hotmail.co.uk that would be ideal
150529/11/2015, 17:08 - J Malawana: Yannis are you coming?
150629/11/2015, 17:08 - A Sami: Documents to amjad.sami@hotmail.co.uk as 
1507
1508well please
150929/11/2015, 17:08 - A Collins: You're in yannis, we can hear you
151029/11/2015, 17:08 - J Malawana: Amjad that's the address have sent to
151129/11/2015, 17:09 - J Malawana: Mark is being very dramatic
151229/11/2015, 17:10 - K Mohan: Deja vu - he's always like this.
151329/11/2015, 17:10 - K Mohan: I've been booted off
151429/11/2015, 17:11 - A Sami: Thank you. Received.
151529/11/2015, 17:14 - Z Greaves: I'm scopiaing from phone not laptop so 
1516
1517can't seem to type
151829/11/2015, 17:15 - D Tooth: Do you want to ask something I can write 
1519
1520your name
152129/11/2015, 17:15 - K Mohan: Period of grace is missing, Johann.
152229/11/2015, 17:15 - J Malawana: These were just the contentious ones.
152329/11/2015, 17:15 - K Mohan: They won't discuss period of grace
152429/11/2015, 17:16 - J Malawana: We can add
152529/11/2015, 17:17 - J Malawana: Mark isn't actually being accurate.
152629/11/2015, 17:17 - J Malawana: But let's just not bother arguing with 
1527
1528him
152929/11/2015, 17:18 - M Redman: Johann we need you to save your energy 
1530
1531for the battle tm????????
153229/11/2015, 17:18 - K Mohan: Ellen is our roving reporter.
153329/11/2015, 17:19 - A Collins: Ellen is our agent moving into position 
1534
1535for the kill... ??
153629/11/2015, 17:19 - A Collins: Can we all take a moment to appreciate 
1537
1538Bethan's hat?
153929/11/2015, 17:20 - K Mohan: It's a guys hat. So yes appreciate it.
154029/11/2015, 17:20 - J Malawana: I know. That hat keeps drawing my eyes.
154129/11/2015, 17:21 - K Mohan: I have one too. I'll try to find it in the 
1542
1543break.
154429/11/2015, 17:21 - J Malawana: Did Mark try and make you agree last 
1545
1546time?
154729/11/2015, 17:22 - M Redman: Yes
154829/11/2015, 17:22 - J Malawana: Is this better than what was offered 
1549
1550when he tried to convince you before?
155129/11/2015, 17:22 - M Redman: He's just giving his 'expert opinion' 
1552
1553though I suppose.
155429/11/2015, 17:22 - B Roberts: Guy's Hospital beanie!
155529/11/2015, 17:22 - K Mohan: He bound Andrew and I to advocate to exec 
1556
1557a "yes" to exec in order to get JH to "agree to pay for work done".
155829/11/2015, 17:23 - J Malawana: Mark is an expert in obstetric 
1559
1560anaesthesia.
156129/11/2015, 17:23 - K Mohan: I need to read it properly.
156229/11/2015, 17:23 - K Mohan: A lot is the same.
156329/11/2015, 17:23 - K Mohan: Basically he tied Andrew and my hands.
156429/11/2015, 17:24 - J Malawana: Let's have a more frank discussion 
1565
1566without him.
156729/11/2015, 17:24 - A Borbora: Can we wind up soon for reading or push 
1568
1569back to 6.30 for part2?
157029/11/2015, 17:24 - T Crocker-Buque: This discussion is no longer 
1571
1572helpful
157329/11/2015, 17:24 - K Mohan: Agree
157429/11/2015, 17:24 - H Carter: Can somebody please forward me the 
1575
1576documents ?
157729/11/2015, 17:24 - T Crocker-Buque: Let's read and reconvene
157829/11/2015, 17:25 - K Mohan: Can we reconvene at 1800?
157929/11/2015, 17:25 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Can we move on
158029/11/2015, 17:26 - J Malawana: Have sent it to harrison but it's 
1581
1582bounced back
158329/11/2015, 17:26 - H Carter: Hcarter@bma.org.uk
158429/11/2015, 17:27 - H Carter: Can you send it to that one?
158529/11/2015, 17:27 - A Collins: "Mark is an expert in obstetric 
1586
1587anaesthesia" ??
158829/11/2015, 17:28 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Agree with aarons request. Can we 
1589
1590push meeting to at least 6.15 as have to READ the document and instead 
1591
1592we are having a Q&A session with mark
159329/11/2015, 17:28 - A Sami: 18:00 or 18:30 are both cool
159429/11/2015, 17:29 - K Mohan: Andrew is wearing a Christmas jumper.
159529/11/2015, 17:30 - A Collins: Darth Amjad has joined the party
159629/11/2015, 17:31 - A Sami: 617025?
159729/11/2015, 17:31 - A Sami: lol
159829/11/2015, 17:33 - A Borbora: GCHQ are listening 
1599And have bugged whstsapp 
1600A bloke in a pub told me
160129/11/2015, 17:33 - A Collins: Did he look a bit swarthy and hide under 
1602
1603his hood? It might have just been Amjad after a few too many... ;)
160429/11/2015, 17:34 - A Sami: IT IS FREEZING!
160529/11/2015, 17:40 - Z Greaves: Don't know who that is but agree soooo 
1606
1607cold!!!  - I'd be sitting on the aga but housemates are in kitchen so 
1608
1609have had to leave heat source ??
161029/11/2015, 17:41 - A Sami: It is Amjad, Zoe
161129/11/2015, 17:42 - J Malawana: Is it because it's the norf?
161229/11/2015, 17:42 - J Malawana: It's fucking cold up norf
161329/11/2015, 17:42 - A Collins: I recommend blubber acquisition. 
1614
1615#nevercold
161629/11/2015, 17:42 - M Redman: I'm wearing a snuggie blanket (the one 
1617
1618with arm holes) #lovethenorf
161929/11/2015, 17:43 - B Roberts: There's a hurricane in Cardiff. 
1620
1621Distracting me from my reading!
162229/11/2015, 17:43 - A Collins: Blubber is also wind proof.
162329/11/2015, 17:44 - E McCourt: <Media omitted>
162429/11/2015, 17:46 - ?L Elliott: SNUGGIE BLANKET
162529/11/2015, 17:47 - A Borbora: My flat mate won't let me turn on the 
1626
1627heating as he says it costs too much and there's no need. Since I'm 
1628
1629unbanded I've some sympathy
163029/11/2015, 17:47 - C Castles: Bunch of wusses
163129/11/2015, 17:54 - Z Greaves: <Media omitted>
163229/11/2015, 17:54 - T Crocker-Buque: Can someone send round the TC 
1633
1634number for whatever room were in next.
163529/11/2015, 17:54 - Z Greaves: Tho there's a fair wind chill factor and 
1636
1637my house is draughty
163829/11/2015, 17:54 - B Roberts: <Media omitted>
163929/11/2015, 17:55 - L J Davis: It's positively tropical here...
164029/11/2015, 17:55 - L J Davis: Sw wins ??
164129/11/2015, 17:57 - L J Davis: Can we have a recap when we meet? I 
1642
1643missed the beginning...
164429/11/2015, 17:57 - Z Greaves: Jealous!
164529/11/2015, 17:58 - E McCourt: What time are we restarting?
164629/11/2015, 17:58 - A Collins: now ish
164729/11/2015, 17:58 - Z Greaves: 2 minutes
164829/11/2015, 17:58 - ?L Elliott: 2 mins
164929/11/2015, 17:58 - ?L Elliott: ??
165029/11/2015, 17:58 - E McCourt: Thanks
165129/11/2015, 17:58 - L J Davis: What number?
165229/11/2015, 17:58 - E McCourt: I have no 3G so might appear 
1653
1654intermittently.
165529/11/2015, 17:59 - J Malawana: 617025
165629/11/2015, 17:59 - T Crocker-Buque: Has anyone got the TC number?
165729/11/2015, 17:59 - J Malawana: I'm logging in.
165829/11/2015, 17:59 - J Malawana: No. I don't TIM
165929/11/2015, 18:00 - T Crocker-Buque: 020 3033 3912
166029/11/2015, 18:01 - T Crocker-Buque: Found it!
166129/11/2015, 18:05 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Huge prob with my damn computer. 
1662
1663Trying to get onto scopia. Plz give me phone call in code too if i have 
1664
1665to use it
166629/11/2015, 18:06 - J Malawana: Isn't it above?
166729/11/2015, 18:06 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Same as half an hr ago?
166829/11/2015, 18:06 - D Tooth: No just above by Tim CB
166929/11/2015, 18:06 - A Collins: 02030333912
167029/11/2015, 18:07 - A Collins: it's probably all the GCHQ bugs slowing 
1671
1672down yannis's computer
167329/11/2015, 18:07 - A Borbora: Maybe Yannis is a double agent?
167429/11/2015, 18:08 - A Borbora: Like Kim Philby but the opposite
167529/11/2015, 18:09 - E McCourt: It's in message from TCB
167629/11/2015, 18:20 - T Crocker-Buque: Got a procedural question about 
1677
1678the politics for whenevers appropriate
167929/11/2015, 18:23 - T Crocker-Buque: Dr Andrew 'mixing my metaphors' 
1680
1681Collier
168229/11/2015, 18:26 - A Yassaee: About to go through a tunnel. I'll 
1683
1684rejoin you on the other side if you're still around.
168529/11/2015, 18:29 - A Sami: The "excess mortalilty" seems to be 
1686
1687implying the JH weekend rhtoric, but not explicitly
168829/11/2015, 18:29 - K Mohan: Also if we don't agree to negotiate I bet 
1689
1690anything they leak the 9 point document tomorrow.
169129/11/2015, 18:30 - A Borbora: Certainly they will
169229/11/2015, 18:30 - C Castles: I think the excess mortality comment 
1693
1694reads like it is directly related to weekends
169529/11/2015, 18:30 - ?L Elliott: Let's have a look what you could of 
1696
1697won! Type situation
169829/11/2015, 18:30 - K Mohan: Added to the point that they "removed the 
1699
1700implosion" yet we said no.
170129/11/2015, 18:31 - C Castles: Implosion? Hope so
170229/11/2015, 18:31 - A Borbora: It's not NI!
170329/11/2015, 18:32 - T Crocker-Buque: This offer still screw female 
1704
1705trainees - point 4 adds nothing
170629/11/2015, 18:33 - C Castles: Im, not ex Aaron
170729/11/2015, 18:35 - K Mohan: :)
170829/11/2015, 18:39 - A Yassaee: Aaron's sentence about the potential 
1709
1710leaking sums up exactly what i want to say.
171129/11/2015, 18:39 - T Crocker-Buque: I Broadly agree with Aaron. Gettin 
1712
1713in the tube, will be back shortly
171429/11/2015, 18:40 - K Mohan: I said that first. :) me, me, me.
171529/11/2015, 18:42 - L Boyle: <Media omitted>
171629/11/2015, 18:42 - L Boyle: I'm going to cry leaving.
171729/11/2015, 18:42 - A Borbora: I don't blame you
171829/11/2015, 18:43 - D Tooth: We lost you ljd
171929/11/2015, 18:44 - L Boyle: Kevin Bacon has the 4G up & running on the 
1720
1721Tube then.
172229/11/2015, 18:45 - A Collins: The 9 points thing is super duper secret
172329/11/2015, 18:46 - L J Davis: So don't tell the daily mail Adam!
172429/11/2015, 18:47 - D Tooth: ????
172529/11/2015, 18:47 - A Collins: its not my fault, they read the super 
1726
1727secret group!! #hacked
172829/11/2015, 18:47 - A Collins: It was so secret ??????????
172929/11/2015, 18:47 - A Borbora: Nothing is secret from gchq
173029/11/2015, 18:48 - A Collins: Andrew rather surprised to have been 
1731
1732used prolifically by johann there...
173329/11/2015, 18:53 - A Yassaee: Yannis would it be easier to type here 
1734
1735if your connection is only patchy?
173629/11/2015, 19:08 - A Collins: as I've said before I actually don't 
1737
1738like the "individual doctors" thing, because that can only be agreed 
1739
1740with transitional pay protection, which is in effect admitting that 
1741
1742others who follow them will lose out
174329/11/2015, 19:10 - Z Greaves: Can I speak also please johann
174429/11/2015, 19:12 - T Crocker-Buque: Just a general point - members and 
1745
1746the public will  realise that there are things we can't tell them and 
1747
1748that we will have been offered something worth talking about, and that 
1749
1750this will remain confidential until negs are over.
175129/11/2015, 19:12 - K Mohan: I agree with TCB.
175229/11/2015, 19:15 - A Yassaee: Another tunnel. But in summary I think 
1753
1754negotiating is the right way forward. 
1755
1756I think there is enough here for us to make statements in the media 
1757
1758that bind DH's hand without a formal backtrack. For that reason, we 
1759
1760have a starting board which we can play some clever moves from. And for 
1761
1762that reason I think we should go to negs.
1763
1764I was also about to say what Tim wrote so won't repeat.
176529/11/2015, 19:19 - A Sami: I am sorry to have leave now to go work.
1766
1767The Mortality bit needs to be improved and more robust wording on the 
1768
1769threat of imposition.
1770
1771Keep up the good work.
1772
1773Speak tomorrow
177429/11/2015, 19:27 - A Collins: Yanns soliciting for people to run 
1775
1776pickets right now even as we speak #dichotomy
177729/11/2015, 19:28 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Ha ha...that was just before this 
1778
1779meeting. I havent cancelled yet!
178029/11/2015, 19:30 - T Crocker-Buque: I still have a quick question
178129/11/2015, 19:33 - Z Greaves: Can someone put Johanns email on here? I 
1782
1783can't see the screen
178429/11/2015, 19:33 - A Collins: 
1785
1786jmalawanananananananaanananana@bma.org.uk
178729/11/2015, 19:34 - A Collins: (JMalawana@bma.org.uk)
178829/11/2015, 19:35 - Z Greaves: Thanks
178929/11/2015, 19:35 - D Rouse: Tom CB what's your question
179029/11/2015, 19:42 - T Crocker-Buque: My question is: I have had this 
1791
1792sick feeling about going bak into negs 4 times in the past with 
1793
1794decisions like tear, including on Friday.
179529/11/2015, 19:43 - T Crocker-Buque: I want Johann to describe what 
1796
1797change has happened politically to reassure us that this isn't going to 
1798
1799be rescinded on Wednesday.
180029/11/2015, 19:44 - T Crocker-Buque: And we're back into NHSE drawing 
1801
1802new red lines and going bcak on agreements.
180329/11/2015, 19:54 - A Yassaee: Just to follow up on Ellen, the entire 
1804
1805ability of going back to IA and how effective that will eventually be 
1806
1807is going to be determined by how we sell this to them. Else all the 
1808
1809currency we gained from the 98% result, goes out of the window.
181029/11/2015, 19:54 - L J Davis: Is there an up to date policy book for 
1811
1812juniors? I haven't got it...
181329/11/2015, 19:54 - A Collins: jnlmalawana@gmail.com
181429/11/2015, 19:54 - L J Davis: And the policy checker on the webshite 
1815
1816is crap.
181729/11/2015, 19:55 - J Malawana: jnlmalawana@gmail.com
181829/11/2015, 20:04 - T Crocker-Buque: Good work everyone X
181929/11/2015, 20:09 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Email coming up in 5 min johann.
182029/11/2015, 20:12 - C Bell: Sorry, 250 to read, to cut short is Tuesday 
1821
1822on?
182329/11/2015, 20:17 - A Collins: No, off.
182429/11/2015, 20:18 - A Collins: Johann has a list of edits to the 
1825
1826documents, which he will attempt to get the govt to agree to as many of 
1827
1828as possible, and then he will make a judgment call which will almost 
1829
1830certainly be suspension of IA. (Is my interpretation?)
183129/11/2015, 20:18 - C Bell: Crikey. Announced when?
183229/11/2015, 20:18 - A Collins: Sometime tomorrow, after its all agreed
183329/11/2015, 20:18 - A Collins: I didn't catch the time chat
183429/11/2015, 20:18 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Charlie b very careful. Its not 
1835
1836announced and its not off defacto yet
183729/11/2015, 20:19 - C Bell: I'm not suggesting it is, but just 
1838
1839attempting to get an idea of where we stand
184029/11/2015, 20:20 - Y Gourtsouyannis: All good. I would urge u call one 
1841
1842of the others for a full low down
184329/11/2015, 20:20 - C Bell: Ok
184429/11/2015, 20:21 - A Collins: Yeah, ring me if you want
184529/11/2015, 20:21 - K Mohan: Yes I would suggest you call Johann
184629/11/2015, 20:21 - A Collins: That's an even better idea.
184729/11/2015, 20:21 - K Mohan: It's not def off. Depends on what happens 
1848
1849tomorrow
185029/11/2015, 20:21 - C Bell: I'll call someone when I'm back in the UK
185129/11/2015, 20:44 - Z Greaves: Feel a bit bad - found my housemates 
1852
1853prepping for action when I came down after VC
185429/11/2015, 20:44 - Z Greaves: <Media omitted>
185529/11/2015, 20:45 - M Redman: <Media omitted>
185629/11/2015, 20:45 - A Collins: We are calling it a hardship fund.
185729/11/2015, 20:45 - A Collins: We're not calling it a strike fund 
1858
1859though, where is that from?
186029/11/2015, 20:45 - C Castles: Andrew dearden emailed earlier saying it 
1861
1862was a hardship fund I thought
186329/11/2015, 20:47 - A Collins: The hardship fund has existed for some 
1864
1865time and this is merely BMA charities annoucining they have renewed and 
1866
1867expanded the programme to deal with the possible demand, as well as to 
1868
1869reassure Jr's that striking is a legitimate "cause"  of hardship should 
1870
1871they find themselves requiring assistance
187229/11/2015, 20:47 - M Redman: All over fb (but from bma Yorkshire page)
1873
1874It's not a STRIKE hardship fund tho.
187529/11/2015, 20:47 - A Collins: Hmm. Wonder who designed it.
187629/11/2015, 20:48 - K Mohan: Marie I think? Or have I made that up.
187729/11/2015, 20:49 - A Yassaee: Yeah probably marie
187829/11/2015, 20:50 - M Redman: maybs.
1879Oh hold on... North west is exactly same but titled as 'junior doctor 
1880
1881financial support fund'
188229/11/2015, 20:50 - J Malawana: Hope you don't mind but this is the 
1883
1884email I sent:
1885
1886Dear All
1887
1888I have had a very difficult meeting with the Executive of the JDC. The 
1889
1890idea of of withdrawing from IA now given the way these documents are 
1891
1892read by doctors has caused great angst. They have asked for the edits 
1893
1894as outlined in the attached documents. I cannot stress enough how 
1895
1896unhappy a lot of the doctors are with the state of this. They are also 
1897
1898adamant that if the department and the government in anyway attacks 
1899
1900individual junior doctors as they did again today, if they use spin to 
1901
1902try and be triumphalist about this, then on friday they will 
1903
1904immediately reinstate the call for the full walk out on the following 
1905
1906Tuesday. 
1907
1908They are very clear the incredible job it is going to take to sell this 
1909
1910to a profession that is totally united and absolutely clear that IA 
1911
1912maybe necessary as they are so fundamentally disappointed with the way 
1913
1914that junior doctors feel they have been treated by the DH and employers 
1915
1916but also particularly by politicians. 
1917
1918I can teleconference this evening if needed if you would like context 
1919
1920to these documents. 
1921
1922Best wishes
1923
1924Johann
192529/11/2015, 20:52 - A Collins: What's the context to that remark about 
1926
1927personal attacks today?
192829/11/2015, 20:52 - A Collins: (excellent email btw)
192929/11/2015, 20:52 - J Malawana: Hope that reflects your feelings. The 
1930
1931vote we took tonight is a secret one that I am using as a reference 
1932
1933given the many qualifications I heard. I hope people are ok with that.
193429/11/2015, 20:52 - J Malawana: They attacked Yannis today in the 
1935
1936times.
193729/11/2015, 20:53 - J Malawana: Even with all my joking I refuse to let 
1938
1939even lefty Yannis be attacked by anyone that isn't me :-)
194029/11/2015, 20:54 - A Collins: Oh of course they did, I forgot that. 
1941?? Yes I quite agree. ??
1942Nasty hobbitses.
194329/11/2015, 21:05 - E McCourt: The times article was particularly 
1944
1945unnecessarily  personal today.
194629/11/2015, 21:05 - D Tooth: Can I ask once a decision is made will it 
1947
1948be sent to all list servers? I'm worried I'll be in with patients and 
1949
1950the GP trainees and GPC will hear from the media rather than me
195129/11/2015, 21:05 - J Malawana: Ok. We will need to work hard on the 
1952
1953Comms plan.
195429/11/2015, 21:07 - D Tooth: Very much appreciate it. If it goes to 
1955
1956Alex Ottley or Joe read they can distribute on my behalf
195729/11/2015, 21:07 - J Malawana: But I am not going to just assume. 
1958
1959There were a lot fundamental changes in what we asked for in the 
1960
1961document edits. And actually two of them I think are actually deal 
1962
1963breakers on their own after listening to exec.
196429/11/2015, 21:08 - C Bell: Can Hugh Townsend be kept in the loop? 
1965
1966Students are super on this so if things change re Tuesday we're going 
1967
1968to need him to know straight away
196929/11/2015, 21:08 - J Malawana: Leave it with me.
197029/11/2015, 21:08 - C Bell: Thanks
197129/11/2015, 21:33 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Stay strong. And thanks for the 
1972
1973kind comments johann. Lets see what the next 24 hrs bring. What a 
1974
1975rollercoaster.
197629/11/2015, 21:35 - J Malawana: Exec can I borrow you for another 15 
1977
1978minutes. Immediately.
197929/11/2015, 21:35 - J Malawana: This is incredibly important.
198029/11/2015, 21:35 - Z Greaves: Same number?
198129/11/2015, 21:35 - H Carter: What number do we call?
198229/11/2015, 21:35 - A Collins: Course. Scopia ID?
198329/11/2015, 21:35 - D Tooth: Oh lord my man you're lucky I just got a 
1984
1985cuppa!! Xx
198629/11/2015, 21:36 - K Mohan: Which number?
198729/11/2015, 21:37 - J Malawana: Same as before
198829/11/2015, 21:37 - Y Gourtsouyannis: 6 of us on so far
198929/11/2015, 21:40 - B Roberts: Just coming!
199029/11/2015, 21:41 - C Castles: I'm in the Indian takeaway
199129/11/2015, 21:42 - C Castles: What number do phone?
199229/11/2015, 21:44 - C Castles: I'm in
199329/11/2015, 21:43 - H Carter: 020 3033 3912
199429/11/2015, 21:43 - T Crocker-Buque: Thanks Harry
199529/11/2015, 21:47 - A Yassaee: Just saw this. I will ring in two stops
199629/11/2015, 21:47 - A Yassaee: No phone signal. Just wif
199729/11/2015, 21:47 - A Yassaee: (Assuming it's not all done by then)
199829/11/2015, 21:54 - Y Gourtsouyannis: ARRASH is u want and update call 
1999
2000me now. The meeting is over
200129/11/2015, 21:55 - C Castles: Dont think my messages sent, I was in 
2002
2003the takeaway
200429/11/2015, 21:55 - A Collins: Hahaha
200529/11/2015, 21:55 - A Collins: Its ok, nothing happened.
200629/11/2015, 21:55 - C Castles: I missed the first minute or two
200729/11/2015, 21:55 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Conan and arrash. The meeting is 
2008
2009over . Either call me or one of the othrs
201029/11/2015, 21:55 - C Sheridan: I had the audacity to step away from my 
2011
2012phone for 10 mins to finally make my dinner. Only caught the end with 
2013
2014yohann saying exec agreed. Can someone post a 1 paragraph summary or 
2015
2016wtf it was about please?
201729/11/2015, 21:55 - A Collins: We just decided to withdraw from NI 
2018
2019completely on the grounds they don't seem to have a functioning govt to 
2020
2021negs with
202229/11/2015, 21:56 - D Rouse: Adam
202329/11/2015, 21:56 - D Rouse: Stop being naughty
202429/11/2015, 21:58 - E McCourt: Johann has some confidential info that 
2025
2026might result in our vote from earlier being redundant and he wanted to 
2027
2028check we were on board with continuing with IA if that was in our 
2029
2030interest but without our explicit agreement.
203129/11/2015, 21:58 - C Sheridan: Cheers ellen. Just had a wee phone call 
2032
2033think that cleared it up
203429/11/2015, 21:59 - Z Greaves: Ahhh so that's what it was about I was a 
2035
2036bit lost ...
203729/11/2015, 22:01 - C Castles: Fair enough. And to be honest, Adam's 
2038
2039comment was fair enough, our government is pretty dysfunctional
204029/11/2015, 22:01 - D Rouse: Hahahaha
204129/11/2015, 22:01 - D Rouse: Just worry about the papers
204229/11/2015, 22:01 - D Rouse: ;-)
204329/11/2015, 22:01 - D Rouse: Collins blasts NI government
204429/11/2015, 22:01 - D Rouse: Junior doctor in secret chat room
204529/11/2015, 22:01 - D Rouse: Again
204629/11/2015, 22:02 - D Rouse: :-P
204729/11/2015, 22:03 - C Castles: Haha
204829/11/2015, 22:03 - C Castles: Collins in gin fuelled sectarian rant
204929/11/2015, 22:08 - A Collins: Hahaj
205029/11/2015, 22:08 - Melody changed this group's icon
205129/11/2015, 22:09 - C Castles: And poor imitation of a nationalist
205229/11/2015, 22:09 - Z Greaves: Love it melody :D
205329/11/2015, 22:10 - M Redman: Collins and I thought appropriate??
205429/11/2015, 22:10 - Z Greaves: Lol
205529/11/2015, 22:16 - A Collins: :D
205629/11/2015, 22:18 - Adam Collins changed this group's icon
205729/11/2015, 22:18 - A Collins: The cropping was annoying me. Sorry...
205829/11/2015, 22:28 - C Castles: That's better
205929/11/2015, 22:29 - Z Greaves: So who's who ?
206029/11/2015, 22:29 - C Castles: Haha, I was just about to ask that
206129/11/2015, 22:29 - C Castles: Who's the hulk?
206229/11/2015, 22:34 - A Collins: Well I think Johann has to be captain 
2063
2064America.
206529/11/2015, 22:34 - A Collins: And presumably the rest is the officer 
2066
2067team...
206829/11/2015, 22:36 - E McCourt: Can I be Thor?!
206929/11/2015, 22:43 - Z Greaves: Has someone maybe had strong words with 
2070
2071the BMJ
207229/11/2015, 22:43 - Z Greaves: <Media omitted>
207329/11/2015, 22:49 - C Castles: About ptsd? Are we all going to have it 
2074
2075by next weekend?
207630/11/2015, 08:01 - D Tooth: Good luck today Johann
207730/11/2015, 08:03 - J Malawana: I am less worried about the DH as I am 
2078
2079by the desperation of some within the BMA to make any deal. We need to 
2080
2081make sure it's the right deal.
208230/11/2015, 08:04 - Y Gourtsouyannis: U are right. Stay firm.
208330/11/2015, 08:04 - J Malawana: That's not to say we can't deal before 
2084
2085you get too excited Yannis :-)
208630/11/2015, 08:06 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Not exited. Its the right deal or 
2087
2088no deal.
208930/11/2015, 08:14 - J Malawana: I agree.
209030/11/2015, 08:16 - K Mohan: Deja vu. Just stick to what you think 
2091
2092right, and what you know from discussions yesterday and trust your 
2093
2094instincts. I can give you you tips on how to handle the internal 
2095
2096people. I found putting down the phone or just walking out the room 
2097
2098helped... :)
209930/11/2015, 08:16 - J Malawana: This whole process has absolutely 
2100
2101convinced me the BMA is not lead in a proper way. The organisation. It 
2102
2103needs a root and branch change to make it actually into an organisation 
2104
2105that is much more focused on doctors. Anyway. That's for another time. 
2106
2107On train. Chat laters.
210830/11/2015, 08:17 - J Malawana: Lol. Thanks kit. Not my style. I 
2109
2110usually talk until they give up or they walk out :-) x
211130/11/2015, 08:18 - J Malawana: As you well know :-)
211230/11/2015, 08:23 - T Crocker-Buque: Couldn't agree more Johann - I'm 
2113
2114not sure what's happened but the ethos and function of much of the 
2115
2116internal workings of the organisation have become extremely problematic 
2117
2118in recent years.
211930/11/2015, 08:48 - K Mohan: My biggest concern remains that we will 
2120
2121actually get something that is acceptable but that it will be not be 
2122
2123played out properly in comms. We need to negotiate a robust comms 
2124
2125statement not just something that keeps the Govt on side. Getting the 
2126
2127press inside is important but if it looks like we're acquiesced - our 
2128
2129members will crucify us. and then any form of IA later will be rubbish. 
2130
2131The organisation needs to remember it is at a membership org not there 
2132
2133to kick up a fuss but then just do the Minister's bidding. We need to 
2134
2135get through the next few days. Then sort this organisational mess out.
213630/11/2015, 08:51 - T Crocker-Buque: Agreed
213730/11/2015, 08:57 - A Collins: You have execs blessing to make the 
2138
2139calls on this, I'm sure you'll do us proud!
214030/11/2015, 08:58 - J Malawana: We also need to be absolutely clear 
2141
2142that as an organisation the doctors are the ones that should be making 
2143
2144decisions based in the interests of of doctors. Not on the basis of 
2145
2146"the BMA" which means senior staff and docs. I am starting to get a bit 
2147
2148sick of the interests of docs and the BMA not being seen as the same. 
2149
2150It works both ways. I hear council members talk about the BMA as if it 
2151
2152isn't them. But I hear senior staff speak as if they are the BMA. Fuck 
2153
2154all this shit. At the end of this I am definitely going back to 
2155
2156delivering babies. At least that shit is meaningful.
215730/11/2015, 09:00 - J Malawana: Right. Into the fire. Thanks all. Exec 
2158
2159counselling was helpful. X
216030/11/2015, 09:00 - K Mohan: Wow this whatsapp group is quite 
2161
2162therapeutic isn't it. :)
216330/11/2015, 09:01 - A Collins: This is meaningful if we do it right! 
2164
2165Chin up and keep the faith, it's going well :)
216630/11/2015, 09:03 - D Rouse: Urgently
216730/11/2015, 09:03 - D Rouse: It needs a a huge overhaul
216830/11/2015, 09:03 - D Rouse: Never mind comms. Just getting materials 
2169
2170to people seems to stretch our organisations machinery to its limits - 
2171
2172not sure how we have got to this point.
2173
2174Worry about the future
217530/11/2015, 09:11 - E McCourt: Some of us do some non-contract 
2176
2177"meaningful shit" too...
217830/11/2015, 09:11 - E McCourt: ??
217930/11/2015, 09:14 - D Rouse: Ellen E&T do equally valuable
218030/11/2015, 09:14 - D Rouse: Work and you are correct to highlight it
218130/11/2015, 09:20 - L J Davis: The ONLY media/comms msg needs to be "we 
2182
2183are SUSPENDING the action, whilst we restart urgent negs with the aim 
2184
2185of developing a good contract for juniors. We will REINSTATE IA if this 
2186
2187is unsuccessful" (if Johann does get to that today...)
218830/11/2015, 09:21 - L J Davis: Sorry - should have added a Surely? At 
2189
2190the beginning ;)
219130/11/2015, 09:22 - K Mohan: I don't think we should formulate comms by 
2192
2193committee (as, well, it's a waste of time). 
2194
2195However I think that's the topline message but if not followed with a 
2196
2197robust and convincing reason why it sounds like (and I read it as) the 
2198
2199BMA were backing down.
220030/11/2015, 09:24 - A Collier If we do have a meeting today could 
2201
2202someone email me, alas i can't have my phone with me this morning
220330/11/2015, 09:25 - K Mohan: Yup will do
220430/11/2015, 09:33 - A Borbora: David and johann are right. The BMA 
2205
2206doesn't think like a union. Unite wouldn't have these issues with 
2207
2208simply things like placards. 
2209The abuse david has been subjected to by some doctors is disgraceful 
2210
2211and all because the Bma won't do it's job. Short of making and 
2212
2213delivering the things himself he's done all he can.
221430/11/2015, 10:17 - J Malawana: Sorry all. I realise I had a bit of a 
2215
2216slip of frustration above. It wasn't professional of me. Apologies.
221730/11/2015, 10:25 - A Borbora: Understandable
221830/11/2015, 10:27 - K Mohan: It's ok. It's all been said before by many 
2219
2220to many... 
2221Obvs we need to keep this to ourselves so we can pick the moment to 
2222
2223act... However as we repeatedly say, we all know how to keep things 
2224
2225confidential so not a problem.
222630/11/2015, 10:27 - M Redman: That's okay, Johann. You're basically 
2227
2228Ironman...
2229- Occasionally controversial which everyone secretly loves, and gets 
2230
2231the job done in style!
2232As long as we all keep the comments in here then we're all good
223330/11/2015, 10:28 - Z Greaves: Yes totally understandable
223430/11/2015, 10:28 - A Borbora: As you know we back you. If you need our 
2235
2236help dealing with other parts of the organisation.......
223730/11/2015, 10:31 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Every doctor in england is primed 
2238
2239and ready. Let's not let the machine screw us and them. Good luck 
2240
2241johann.
224230/11/2015, 10:53 - A Collins: and better here than anywhere anyone 
2243
2244wouldn't get it. :)
224530/11/2015, 11:24 - J Malawana: The Secretary of State is going to make 
2246
2247a statement this afternoon in parliament.
224830/11/2015, 11:24 - K Mohan: Saying...
224930/11/2015, 11:24 - C Castles: He resigns?
225030/11/2015, 11:25 - C Castles: Is this going to be an announcement to 
2251
2252us via someone else again...
225330/11/2015, 11:26 - Z Greaves: Please don't leave us in suspense til 
2254
2255this afternoon ??
225630/11/2015, 11:38 - T Crocker-Buque: What time?
225730/11/2015, 11:41 - A Collins: The suspense is killing me.
225830/11/2015, 11:45 - C Castles: Well the NI abortion law has just been 
2259
2260ruled a breach of human rights, so that'll distract everyone here from 
2261
2262any other announcements
226330/11/2015, 11:52 - H Carter: I doubt he's resigning. Does this 
2264
2265statement mean that some agreement has been reached or decision made? 
2266
2267Are we therefore clearer about the status of IA tomorrow then perhaps 
2268
2269we were a couple of hours ago?
227030/11/2015, 11:52 - H Carter: * than
227130/11/2015, 12:16 - C Bell: ?
227230/11/2015, 12:26 - L J Davis: I'm guessing that Johann is still deep 
2273
2274in discussion. Tbh I expect this all to come down to last minute; 
2275
2276although that might be the sos statement rather than midnight... I'm 
2277
2278sure info will be shared with us asap...
227930/11/2015, 12:29 - A Collins: Will we be getting an update from The 
2280
2281Incredible JoHulk before this announcement or has JH embargoed itm
228230/11/2015, 12:29 - A Collins: *it?
228330/11/2015, 12:32 - Z Greaves: And please whatever it is please can Jdc 
2284
2285be in the loop prior to statement - they will not appreciate being 
2286
2287taken by surprise and we need everyone to be consistent clear and on 
2288
2289message in managing whatever it is hunt is going to say
229030/11/2015, 12:33 - L J Davis: Don't know; again, we've spent a lot of 
2291
2292time reminding everyone of the need for comms to us & JDC
229330/11/2015, 12:33 - L J Davis: So Johann will be on it...
229430/11/2015, 12:34 - K Mohan: I'm sure if he can, he will.s
229530/11/2015, 12:34 - K Mohan: Rogue s
229630/11/2015, 12:34 - L J Davis: Jdc know Johann is at acas tho, so they 
2297
2298must anticipate there may be a positive (or negative) outcome...?
229930/11/2015, 12:34 - L J Davis: & impact on tmrw's IA?
230030/11/2015, 12:35 - Z Greaves: We have a lot of (understandably) angry 
2301
2302new people this year and I'm not sure they'll have thought through to 
2303
2304that extent.
230530/11/2015, 12:36 - L J Davis: Ah. This is potentially true. What % do 
2306
2307you think will be surprised/shocked if we do find a deal & suspend IA?
230830/11/2015, 12:37 - Y Gourtsouyannis: On facebook somebody has just 
2309
2310posted that the announcement will be at 4.15pm
231130/11/2015, 12:37 - L J Davis: (I've not been in person to Jdc since 
2312
2313the summer...)
231430/11/2015, 12:37 - Z Greaves: Even if nothing can be shared a warning 
2315
2316shot might be helpful ... something along the lines of 'you will have 
2317
2318heard that we are expecting a statement from DH this afternoon, can we 
2319
2320please remind people of the importance of us as representatives 
2321
2322presenting a coherent and united front - if you have any concerns or 
2323
2324questions please raise them here rather than in a public forum'
232530/11/2015, 12:37 - L J Davis: Who yannis?
232630/11/2015, 12:37 - A Collins: Yes of course, makes sense really!
232730/11/2015, 12:38 - L J Davis: Excellent plan Zoe.
232830/11/2015, 12:38 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Somebody called annabel sharkey 
2329
2330in the junior docs contract forum
233130/11/2015, 12:39 - Y Gourtsouyannis: No idea if true or verifiable
233230/11/2015, 12:39 - L J Davis: I've not got listserver access; think it 
2333
2334should come from an officer. I'll see if David can do (Ellen's asleep & 
2335
2336poor Aaron feeling poorly!)
233730/11/2015, 12:41 - L J Davis: Interesting...
233830/11/2015, 12:42 - T Crocker-Buque: Urgent questions and ministerial 
2339
2340statements is timetabled to begin at 3:30 today.
234130/11/2015, 12:43 - T Crocker-Buque: So 4:15 is plausible
234230/11/2015, 12:44 - K Mohan: May be worth waiting to speak to Johann in 
2343
2344case it all comes to nothing? Who knows what they have agreed to say 
2345
2346how why and where in the room. I doubt we want to unknowingly breach 
2347
2348that and break Johann's confidence.
234930/11/2015, 12:47 - E McCourt: If only I was asleep! I have had approx. 
2350
2351a million phone calls from London...
235230/11/2015, 12:47 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Agree with kitty. We know nothing 
2353
2354about what is going on. If 4.15 is true then Hunt is taking this down 
2355
2356to the wire. For all we know he is planning to humiliate us or confuse 
2357
2358us at 4.15 and allow literally half an hr max to make our decisions. 
2359
2360This all smells very very bad.
236130/11/2015, 12:47 - L J Davis: Awh, Ellen!
236230/11/2015, 12:48 - A Yassaee: This timing might now explain the weird 
2363
2364behaviour over acas response.
236530/11/2015, 12:49 - T Crocker-Buque: I wouldn't over think it - 3:30 is 
2366
2367the earliest he could have got any parliamentary time today anyway.
236830/11/2015, 12:49 - L J Davis: I think something reminding that this is 
2369
2370all still in process & to discuss on list... Not in public...
237130/11/2015, 12:49 - L J Davis: Wld be helpful. With one profession, 
2372
2373etc...
237430/11/2015, 12:51 - L J Davis: I agree about not over thinking. I'm not 
2375
2376sure the gov has a plan behind any of this... Maybe I'm just cynical ??
237730/11/2015, 12:52 - K Mohan: Clearly you guys are the officers so it's 
2378
2379your call re posting on the listserver. Personally the idea without 
2380
2381knowing what's going on makes me nervous for you all.
238230/11/2015, 12:55 - L J Davis: Well, there'll be an outcome one way or 
2383
2384the other. I'm reluctant to give rumours over sos any air time; but I 
2385
2386think we should remind ppl this is an ongoing situation and things are 
2387
2388still fluid.
238930/11/2015, 12:56 - K Mohan: Sure. I've told south thames today that 
2390
2391the ultimate win is for this to be called off as we get acceptable 
2392
2393assurances. No one has killed me yet.
239430/11/2015, 12:56 - E McCourt: My preference is to wait. For now.
239530/11/2015, 12:56 - E McCourt: I don't like vague very much.
239630/11/2015, 12:57 - L J Davis: I'm in your hands Ellen; I have no 
2397
2398listserver access ;)
239930/11/2015, 12:59 - A Borbora: Id like to wait. We don't know anything. 
2400
2401Let's wait for johann who will have his own plan.
240230/11/2015, 13:04 - A Collins: JDC should not be left to anticipate if 
2403
2404possible... Even if we give them vague info as suggested by zoe it 
2405
2406would help I think.
240730/11/2015, 13:07 - A Borbora: I disagree. Johann is the leader and a 
2408
2409decision like this should come from him. 
2410He has kept people informed and I'd like any messaging to find from 
2411
2412him. 
2413We do not need more uniformed speculation
241430/11/2015, 13:11 - L J Davis: I'm guided by the wisdom of exec... 
2415
2416(Plus I can't get my hands on a 'puter!). We will await the Johann ??
241730/11/2015, 13:24 - J Malawana: Ok we have a deal I think. Turns out 
2418
2419despite what was said my rather forceful email last night did make some 
2420
2421movement.
242230/11/2015, 13:25 - J Malawana: We need a meeting at 2pm ish.
242330/11/2015, 13:25 - K Mohan: Ok. I'm coming in.
242430/11/2015, 13:25 - M Redman: I''ll be on vc for 2!
242530/11/2015, 13:26 - J Malawana: It doesn't need to be everyone because 
2426
2427I wont be having a vote. The deal is better than the one we agreed 
2428
2429yesterday
243030/11/2015, 13:26 - A Yassaee: I'll TC in for 2.
243130/11/2015, 13:26 - J Malawana: We have the commitments of the sos.
243230/11/2015, 13:26 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Will we be emailed the deal. Will 
2433
2434u read it out to inform us?
243530/11/2015, 13:26 - J Malawana: We are going to have to spin this like 
2436
2437crazy.
243830/11/2015, 13:27 - J Malawana: Yannis come into BMA house. Same 
2439
2440applies to everyone.
244130/11/2015, 13:27 - J Malawana: The excess mortality thing is out.
244230/11/2015, 13:27 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Ok coming in.
244330/11/2015, 13:27 - C Bell: M coming in
244430/11/2015, 13:27 - J Malawana: We have commitments that JDC will be 
2445
2446represented at the highest levels of 7day services.
244730/11/2015, 13:28 - J Malawana: A few extra things I put in there just 
2448
2449to make sure
245030/11/2015, 13:28 - J Malawana: I need all you guys ready this 
2451
2452afternoon ready talk like crazy that we have extracted the deal
245330/11/2015, 13:29 - J Malawana: But it needs to be done without 
2454
2455explicitly sharing the agenda.
245630/11/2015, 13:29 - M Redman: Ready boss ????
245730/11/2015, 13:29 - A Yassaee: Do we know when we'll know?
245830/11/2015, 13:29 - A Yassaee: Pre or post 5pm?
245930/11/2015, 13:29 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Will try my best but P.s if we 
2460
2461have to 'spin this like crazy' as an organisation then for a number of 
2462
2463reasons we are screwed
246430/11/2015, 13:29 - J Malawana: We have to Yannis because some people 
2465
2466want IA at all costs.
246730/11/2015, 13:30 - J Malawana: Ultimately. I can't give them IA at all 
2468
2469costs.
247030/11/2015, 13:31 - L J Davis: I'm unlikely to be able to join you, as 
2471
2472I'll be in hospital with my mum. Good work, Johann. Fingers crossed 
2473
2474they don't spanner it in the meantime... X
247530/11/2015, 13:33 - M Redman: Does anyone have numbers saved sorryyyyy 
2476
2477617027?
247830/11/2015, 13:36 - A Borbora: I'm unwell so won't be able to do much 
2479
2480talking. 
2481Will join for the VC
248230/11/2015, 13:37 - Z Greaves: Was it not 617025
248330/11/2015, 13:38 - C Castles: Yeah, Zoe was right
248430/11/2015, 13:38 - C Castles: Is right
248530/11/2015, 13:38 - M Redman: Okay nice one
248630/11/2015, 13:38 - M Redman: What about dial in?
248730/11/2015, 13:38 - C Bell: Which room johann?
248830/11/2015, 13:39 - C Castles: Is it the same number as last night 
2489
2490though?
249130/11/2015, 13:39 - K Mohan: Isn't it 1400?
249230/11/2015, 13:39 - K Mohan: Or now.
249330/11/2015, 13:39 - C Castles: Or the other number?
249430/11/2015, 13:39 - A Sami: 14:00
249530/11/2015, 13:40 - K Mohan: I forgot about the gale going on outside.
249630/11/2015, 13:41 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Heading to bma house. Will there 
2497
2498before 2pm
249930/11/2015, 13:41 - C Bell: Kitty which room?
250030/11/2015, 13:41 - A Collier Time is clearly short, to give Johann as 
2501
2502much time as possible we should try to keep our questions to a minimum.
250330/11/2015, 13:41 - Z Greaves: People are starting to ask questions on 
2504
2505listserver
250630/11/2015, 13:42 - A Collier Johann I'm sure you'll have already done 
2507
2508this but telling comms to get our message ready now would be sensible.
250930/11/2015, 13:43 - T Crocker-Buque: Hunts statement confirmed for 4:15 
2510
2511on Parliament website
251230/11/2015, 13:44 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Andrew is right. Regardless of 
2513
2514what I or others feel about the decision which seems to be fully made 
2515
2516then the next question is: WHO AND WHEN IS ANNOUNCING THIS FIRST. We 
2517
2518currently seem to be entirely on the Ministers timeline.
251930/11/2015, 13:46 - A Yassaee: Theoretically could things be ready to 
2520
2521go the moment the words are spoken in the chamber?
252230/11/2015, 13:46 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Of course we can cover that at 
2523
25242pm meeting. Not suggesting an answer nw
252530/11/2015, 13:46 - T Crocker-Buque: I imagine that's exactly what 
2526
2527Johanns doing right now
252830/11/2015, 13:49 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Johann remembr to tell is the 
2529
2530room. Am at bma house
253130/11/2015, 13:49 - H Carter: Corpe room
253230/11/2015, 13:49 - H Carter: Third floor next to John maingay's desk 
2533
2534(I think)
253530/11/2015, 13:50 - A Sami: There is an email from Michelle on the 
2536
2537Execlistsever detailing this meeting
2538
2539Amjad
254030/11/2015, 13:50 - T Crocker-Buque: Could someone post the deets on 
2541
2542here
254330/11/2015, 13:51 - K Mohan: <Media omitted>
254430/11/2015, 13:51 - E McCourt: <Media omitted>
254530/11/2015, 13:51 - K Mohan: Beat you.
254630/11/2015, 13:52 - E McCourt: Haha
254730/11/2015, 13:52 - K Mohan: Wil Likely be a couple of minutes late. At 
2548
2549Holborn.
255030/11/2015, 13:59 - K Mohan: Have phoned in until get there. At Russell 
2551
2552sq
255330/11/2015, 13:59 - ?L Elliott: Aaron is poorly btw. So he is not 
2554
2555showing his face. I am mopping his brow and feeding him grapes.
255630/11/2015, 14:00 - K Mohan: Can anyone hear me? Me! Me!
255730/11/2015, 14:01 - M Redman: We can hear you
255830/11/2015, 14:04 - L Boyle: Hahaha Adam's little ears toasty
255930/11/2015, 14:08 - D Rouse: So
256030/11/2015, 14:08 - D Rouse: The sub
256130/11/2015, 14:09 - D Rouse: Sun are running a smear story on me
256230/11/2015, 14:09 - D Rouse: Have just been at my old house
256330/11/2015, 14:09 - K Mohan: Have we started yet?
256430/11/2015, 14:09 - D Rouse: Trying to find me
256530/11/2015, 14:09 - D Rouse: To let me know
256630/11/2015, 14:09 - Z Greaves: Not yet
256730/11/2015, 14:09 - K Mohan: Can you tell me when?
256830/11/2015, 14:12 - D Rouse: What's the number tontelephe into
256930/11/2015, 14:13 - M Redman: Still not yet
257030/11/2015, 14:13 - M Redman: 02030333911
257130/11/2015, 14:23 - Z Greaves: Anyone else struggling to hear anything 
2572
2573from the room? It was very crackly for a minute
257430/11/2015, 14:23 - L J Davis: Please could someone send to me at 
2575
2576ljd_456@yahoo.com? I'm on the phone, but can't access listserver...
257730/11/2015, 14:27 - C Sheridan: Me too yohann sheridan.cp@gmail.com
257830/11/2015, 14:39 - D Tooth: Johann where has the bit about GP  gone
257930/11/2015, 14:39 - A Sami: It is there
258030/11/2015, 14:42 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Concerns: both documents have 
2581
2582more about 'cost neutrality'. Both documents have no mention of 
2583
2584reduction in plane time compared to nov offer. The Nov 2015 offer as 
2585
2586basis is still there. So especially for the first two points this is 
2587
2588WORSE than yesterdays offer. Objectively worse.
258930/11/2015, 14:43 - D Tooth: Have
259030/11/2015, 14:44 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Both the public and private 
2591
2592documents are worse on the issue of plain time and cost neutrality. 
2593
2594With no budge of defining what suspension of imposition means.
259530/11/2015, 14:45 - L J Davis: I'm less happy (!) than I was... 
2596
2597Concerned nothing on pay progression, pay protection, non-resident on 
2598
2599call... And still based on the 'firm offer'.
260030/11/2015, 14:45 - C Sheridan: "Cost neutrality" and (still) implied 
2601
2602more working across 7 days is something that concerns me. We need to be 
2603
2604very careful around this
260530/11/2015, 14:50 - A Sami: Cost neutral is OK. November offer is not!
2606
2607Not going to DDRB. 
2608
2609Can we take it out
261030/11/2015, 14:50 - A Sami: Take the November offer bit out
261130/11/2015, 14:51 - Z Greaves: What was wrong with the November offer 
2612
2613explicitly - I'd thought it was better than the ddrb?
261430/11/2015, 14:51 - T Crocker-Buque: We've always agreed that the 
2615
2616contract would be cost neutral
261730/11/2015, 14:51 - A Collier I'm afraid I disagree, the November offer 
2618
2619is ok, cost neutral isn't.
262030/11/2015, 14:51 - ?L Elliott: But we need a basis for negs so Nov 
2621
2622offer is fine
262330/11/2015, 14:51 - A Collier It's negotiation on the November offer 
2624
2625rather than finalisation so it is ok in my book
262630/11/2015, 14:52 - ?L Elliott: Exactly
262730/11/2015, 14:52 - A Sami: if the majority think it is OK, then I have 
2628
2629to agree.
2630
2631The question is how are we going to explain this to the grass root?
263230/11/2015, 14:52 - A Collier My view is that the use of "Cost neutral" 
2633
2634is an issue as it splits us from the membership
263530/11/2015, 14:53 - A Collier We should be able to get around it though
263630/11/2015, 14:53 - A Sami: Cost neutral is something we agreed to in 
2637
26382013 in head of terms
263930/11/2015, 14:54 - A Collier What we agreed to in the past is 
2640
2641important but isn't the be all and end all
264230/11/2015, 14:54 - A Collier We have I get the comms right on this
264330/11/2015, 14:54 - C Castles: Losing cost neutrality was one of the 
2644
2645reasons we left negotiations in Oct 14
264630/11/2015, 14:54 - T Crocker-Buque: Please can we avoid a sunk-cost 
2647
2648fallacy: we must ignore our past investment and focus only on the 
2649
2650situation in hand on this offer.
265130/11/2015, 14:54 - A Sami: Same as everything else is not the be all 
2652
2653or end all, afterall
265430/11/2015, 14:54 - C Castles: But the heads of terms don't really 
2655
2656apply any more
265730/11/2015, 14:54 - A Sami: Fair enough
265830/11/2015, 14:54 - K Mohan: Really? Is that why we left?
265930/11/2015, 14:54 - C Sheridan: Cost neutral has always been there, its 
2660
2661just as long as its not more out of hours and weekends for the same 
2662
2663money as now, is my point.
266430/11/2015, 14:55 - C Castles: I thought it was one of the reasons
266530/11/2015, 14:56 - A Sami: I agree, we must focus on the end result 
2666
2667and at the task at hand.
266830/11/2015, 14:57 - L Boyle: We are TOAST if this action doesn't go 
2669
2670ahead tomorrow
267130/11/2015, 14:58 - K Mohan: But that's because it was not cost neutral 
2672
2673anymore in our view in October 2014 and it was going to be cost 
2674
2675negative.
267630/11/2015, 14:58 - C Castles: Yeah
267730/11/2015, 14:58 - C Sheridan: Ps my microphone never seems to work so 
2678
2679im not saying much on scopia ;-(
268030/11/2015, 14:58 - L Boyle: If they leave it until the evening before 
2681
2682the action - we don't call it off
268330/11/2015, 14:58 - K Mohan: If we get the right deal the whole point 
2684
2685is to call off action. That's why we went to acas.
268630/11/2015, 14:58 - C Castles: I think we're maybe saying the same 
2687
2688thing here kitty :-)
268930/11/2015, 14:58 - ?L Elliott: Yes Kitty I was about to write that.
269030/11/2015, 14:59 - A Collins: Ok I'm starting to be sold that this is 
2691
2692acceptable. It seems that the wording isn't great as it's not clear 
2693
2694that the statement about Nov offer is overridden by the following 
2695
2696paragraphs, but we can spin that.
269730/11/2015, 14:59 - ?L Elliott: People will be furious to start with. 
2698
2699But then when they calm down and read the facts..
270030/11/2015, 14:59 - D Rouse: We are not here
270130/11/2015, 14:59 - D Rouse: To quell the anger
270230/11/2015, 14:59 - D Rouse: We are here to provide a good contract
270330/11/2015, 15:00 - ?L Elliott: But we WILL be dealing with the anger
270430/11/2015, 15:00 - A Sami: We stand united.
270530/11/2015, 15:00 - A Sami: The best IA is the one that we do not need 
2706
2707to take
270830/11/2015, 15:00 - A Collier We have to try not to provoke unnecessary 
2709
2710anger
271130/11/2015, 15:00 - M Redman: I think we have to appear reasonable and 
2712
2713given what Johann has said over last couple of days, I think we stand 
2714
2715more to lose by not postponing.
271630/11/2015, 15:00 - C Castles: Would it be an idea to cancel tomorrow's 
2717
2718IA, leave the next two in place, and discuss further later this week?
271930/11/2015, 15:00 - A Collier Getting our first message right is 
2720
2721crucial
272230/11/2015, 15:00 - A Sami: Agree, Andrew
272330/11/2015, 15:01 - M Redman: I think best thing to acheive best deal 
2724
2725for members is to explore whilst postponing
272630/11/2015, 15:01 - A Collier The argument that it's too late to call 
2727
2728off action alone doesn't stand up
272930/11/2015, 15:01 - D Rouse: Plus if we go back to action.
273030/11/2015, 15:01 - D Rouse: We can go straight to full walk out
273130/11/2015, 15:02 - A Sami: It actually feels easier to challenge 
2732
2733Johann than being in his shoes.
2734
2735#IstandwithJohann.
273630/11/2015, 15:02 - ?L Elliott: Yes. I wasn't saying I'm going to stir 
2737
2738up anger but the Mersey doctors are quite shouty. And they've put in so 
2739
2740so much. Which isn't the point I know.
274130/11/2015, 15:02 - A Sami: What do people think of Connan's 
2742
2743suggestion?
274430/11/2015, 15:03 - Z Greaves: I'm not sure this is even about the 
2745
2746documents it's about whether we can get more through action than we can 
2747
2748get through acas - it sounds like what's going on at acas is broadly 
2749
2750promising therefore it's worth giving it a shot as we still have the 
2751
2752option to go back to action. If we continue action when we can't 
2753
2754reasonably expect more than we already have from acas it has no purpose
275530/11/2015, 15:03 - A Collier We need to be clear that if talks aren't 
2756
2757productive we will not hesitate in restarting IA
275830/11/2015, 15:03 - A Sami: So calling the 3 days off for now?
275930/11/2015, 15:06 - T Crocker-Buque: I dot care about the Consultants 
2760
2761position
276230/11/2015, 15:06 - T Crocker-Buque: Dont*
276330/11/2015, 15:06 - Z Greaves: No
276430/11/2015, 15:06 - Z Greaves: We have to take a view that is in the 
2765
2766interest of juniors
276730/11/2015, 15:07 - E McCourt: Call off day 1, maintain days 2&3
276830/11/2015, 15:07 - T Crocker-Buque: We deliver 7 days at the moment - 
2769
2770I disagree with Keith's argument
277130/11/2015, 15:08 - C Castles: Call off day 1 to discuss further, leave 
2772
2773days 2 and 3 in place for now
277430/11/2015, 15:08 - ?L Elliott: Exactly Zoe, I've had an internal 
2775
2776battle with myself that we would be letting down the juniors if we call 
2777
2778it if as they've put time and effort and money in. But this deal is the 
2779
2780best we will get and IS the best deal for juniors. In my opinion. A 
2781
2782strike would not get us a better deal.
278330/11/2015, 15:08 - C Sheridan: If we're suspending it cant just be 
2784
2785tomorrow - i think in good faith it has to be indefinitely if we move 
2786
2787forward. Until it isnt ok of course
278830/11/2015, 15:10 - T Crocker-Buque: Who is that consultant speaking 
2789
2790who's not Keith?
279130/11/2015, 15:10 - C Castles: Els
279230/11/2015, 15:11 - T Crocker-Buque: I agree - it's enough to suspend
279330/11/2015, 15:11 - T Crocker-Buque: We can work on this detail over 
2794
2795this week
279630/11/2015, 15:11 - C Castles: What is happening now?
279730/11/2015, 15:11 - A Sami: Johann is going back to try to improve it a 
2798
2799bit if possible
280030/11/2015, 15:12 - C Castles: Is the meeting ending fir now then?
280130/11/2015, 15:12 - C Castles: And meeting later?
280230/11/2015, 15:13 - ?L Elliott: We don't know
280330/11/2015, 15:13 - A Sami: We might do (I don't know)
280430/11/2015, 15:13 - T Crocker-Buque: This is a JUNIORS negs
280530/11/2015, 15:13 - C Castles: But we are still part of the bma as a 
2806
2807whole, we need to consider these issues
280830/11/2015, 15:14 - T Crocker-Buque: No! It will not healed or Keith to 
2809
2810speak to Mark!!!
281130/11/2015, 15:14 - T Crocker-Buque: Help*
281230/11/2015, 15:18 - T Crocker-Buque: Agreed we are part of the whole 
2813
2814BMA - but we should not decide to suspend or not based on whether it 
2815
2816makes things difficult for consultant negs. Only on if it's the best 
2817
2818deal we can get for juniors.
281930/11/2015, 15:18 - C Sheridan: I think Keith's point is important, 
2820
2821though may arise from a place of worrying about its impact on his BoP 
2822
2823more than ours. I do think the late explicit addition of "cost neutral" 
2824
2825does need us to ask "why now?" As i wonder whats the motivation on the 
2826
2827other side. I also agree with Els -7am not 5pm deadline! (Hope Yohann 
2828
2829us getting premium time for this!  ;-)  )
283030/11/2015, 15:19 - C Bell: So is cost neutral a sticking point?
283130/11/2015, 15:19 - C Bell: For jdc, ignoring cons
283230/11/2015, 15:20 - D Rouse: This is juniors contract. Sorry but we 
2833
2834cannot assume that the consultants would change things for us
283530/11/2015, 15:20 - C Bell: So is cost neutral a sticking point for 
2836
2837jdc?
283830/11/2015, 15:23 - C Sheridan: Its just a case of what Cost Neutral 
2839
2840means. If its more working at nights and weekends than now, for the 
2841
2842same overall pay then i think so. The BMA position has always said 7DS 
2843
2844need to be fully funded. I worry this is a last ditch attempt at a fly 
2845
2846one by NHSE/DoH/Hunt. Its so short sited if so - talks may just break 
2847
2848down again, but we'd have lot all the momentum we've gained in the run 
2849
2850up to IA
285130/11/2015, 15:23 - C Bell: Precisely. So do we need it out of the 
2852
2853document on that basis?
285430/11/2015, 15:23 - L Boyle: The point about this isn't the 11th hour 
2855
2856yet - sorry, if the RMT are prepared to take this shit at the last 
2857
2858minute that's up to them. The BMA doesn't have to though
285930/11/2015, 15:24 - C Bell: Yes, but what shit. Is it important enough 
2860
2861to take it out?
286230/11/2015, 15:25 - L Boyle: Yeah. Imo it is
286330/11/2015, 15:25 - C Bell: Because? (I don't mean this aggressively)
286430/11/2015, 15:25 - C Castles: I dont understand why we're stressing so 
2865
2866much to make a decision now - as Charlie said (I think) earlier, they 
2867
2868have had time to think about this before now. Let's not fall apart and 
2869
2870make rash decisions just to meet their timeline - take what time we 
2871
2872need to be happy with what we say
287330/11/2015, 15:27 - C Bell: I think it's important because the private 
2874
2875document offers no qualifier. If it did, I'd be far more comfortable.
287630/11/2015, 15:27 - Y Gourtsouyannis: This is objectively worse 
2877
2878compared to yesterday. There is no way this can be sold to members and 
2879
2880we all know that comms is not capable of a miracle.
288130/11/2015, 15:28 - C Bell: Specifically the cost envelope?
288230/11/2015, 15:29 - L Boyle: I agree with Conan - they've had months & 
2883
2884I fear we're about to make a huge mistake.
288530/11/2015, 15:30 - C Bell: Sorry, I'm banging a drum here and I'm sure 
2886
2887it's pissing people off, but what specifically needs to change? What 
2888
2889are our red lines?
289030/11/2015, 15:30 - C Bell: Johann needs those
289130/11/2015, 15:31 - L J Davis: Guessing I've missed the chance, to 
2892
2893comment; this reminds me of the summer; offers have worsened in past 
2894
2895few days; and I think this is going to be a)difficult to sell to 
2896
2897members and b)not a good start to negs. I'm slightly heartened by still 
2898
2899being able to take IA into January. Overall very concerned.
290030/11/2015, 15:32 - L J Davis: Red lines; based on nov offer; nothing 
2901
2902re on call; nothing much to protect ltft/parental...
290330/11/2015, 15:32 - L Boyle: What needs to change is we need to be 
2904
2905offered a way of keeping our Association tg - we have no option but to 
2906
2907go ahead tm or we'll never have IA. This will be worse than MTAS, I 
2908
2909will be worse than 2008
291030/11/2015, 15:32 - L Boyle: 2012* sorry
291130/11/2015, 15:32 - C Bell: And the red lines are:
291230/11/2015, 15:32 - C Bell: Or are you arguing it's too late now?
291330/11/2015, 15:33 - C Bell: Cos that's two different arguments
291430/11/2015, 15:33 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Luke has 100% described the 
2915
2916present sutiuation accurately.
291730/11/2015, 15:33 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Also to answer charlie
291830/11/2015, 15:34 - L Boyle: It's too late for tomorrow yes. And the 
2919
2920package just isn't good enough.
292130/11/2015, 15:34 - C Castles: I agree with Luke and yannis about this
292230/11/2015, 15:34 - Y Gourtsouyannis: 1. Cose neutrality in the public
2923
2924(document ) is suicidal. 2. No clarity on imposition suspension (our 
2925
2926red line for months!) 3.the 'november' basis.
292730/11/2015, 15:35 - Y Gourtsouyannis: 4.
292830/11/2015, 15:35 - C Castles: Sorry, I'm trying to chair a strategy 
2929
2930meeting in NI as well, my attention is divided somewhat
293130/11/2015, 15:36 - L Boyle: This is what they seek to do - create 
2932
2933conflict within the opposition so it's divided. Negs 101. And it's 
2934
2935working beautifully for them this moment. We're going to make mistakes 
2936
2937under pressure when we shouldn't even be feeling any today
293830/11/2015, 15:36 - Y Gourtsouyannis: 4. In the presnt document DOH 
2939
2940have specifically removed the commitment to 'reducing plain time as 
2941
2942compared to nov offer'. This was in yesyerdays document but not todays
294330/11/2015, 15:36 - C Bell: Ok that's clear. So we have three groups it 
2944
2945seems, 1. This is beyond redemption, let's go ahead because there's no 
2946
2947way doing so is worse than not doing so. 2a this is fine, lets go. 2b 
2948
2949this is just about ok but needs tweaks on cost neutrality
295030/11/2015, 15:36 - L Boyle: They've moved the goalposts
295130/11/2015, 15:36 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Hey have done that specifically
295230/11/2015, 15:36 - C Bell: It'd be worth perhaps getting an indication 
2953
2954of where people are
295530/11/2015, 15:36 - L J Davis: Ps I'm not persuaded that postponing the 
2956
2957IA means it won't happen/won't be as good. Doing it for the sake of 
2958
2959doing it is unwise. We might even have stronger action with more time 
2960
2961to plan. But I worry about the detail in these docs & the approach that 
2962
2963the dh/nhse seem to have been forced into...
296430/11/2015, 15:37 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Again luke is right in that this 
2965
2966whole debacle is to sow confusion in the run up to tmro
296730/11/2015, 15:37 - L Boyle: We won't have any action if we don't go 
2968
2969with tomorrow because we won't be able to rally the troops again
297030/11/2015, 15:37 - C Bell: So how about garnering opinions into those 
2971
2972groups?
297330/11/2015, 15:37 - L Boyle: I don't even live it train in England & I 
2974
2975can feel the anger from here! All set for tm
297630/11/2015, 15:38 - Y Gourtsouyannis: If there is no Nov1st there will 
2977
2978b no nov the 8th. Do we really expect people to rally to a FULL walkout 
2979
2980after weve just blinked befor a emergency care only!?
298130/11/2015, 15:38 - L Boyle: Absolutely
298230/11/2015, 15:39 - L Boyle: Look at how hard it is to sell this to 
2983
2984exec, never mind the membership
298530/11/2015, 15:39 - L J Davis: We'll have more time & more rationale 
2986
2987for IA in jan- plus, tbh, if it really comes to it, a single day of any 
2988
2989action means fuck all. We'll need a lot more to forcibly "break" back 
2990
2991into negs. Weeks/months?
299230/11/2015, 15:40 - D Rouse: Sorry Yanis I disagree.  On most of what 
2993
2994you say but
299530/11/2015, 15:40 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Continuind from luke...Hard to 
2996
2997sell to exec=near Impossible to sell to JDC=IMPOSSIBLE to sell to 
2998
2999membership
300030/11/2015, 15:40 - T Crocker-Buque: What do you want from this Luke?
300130/11/2015, 15:40 - L J Davis: So if you honestly think ppl won't do it 
3002
3003if they don't do tmrw, we might as well all pack up and go home now.
300430/11/2015, 15:40 - D Rouse: Can people answer one question for me 
3005
3006which is.  
3007
3008If we were to get cost neutral out although cost neutral it has been 
3009
3010all along. 
3011
3012Would exec then be happier
301330/11/2015, 15:40 - D Rouse: I don't think this will happen may I add
301430/11/2015, 15:41 - L J Davis: Don't care about cost neutral because I 
3015
3016thought that was a given, plus I think they will use whatever numbers 
3017
3018they feel like making up...
301930/11/2015, 15:41 - J Malawana: They are clear. It won't confirm out of 
3020
3021the public document. But they will confirm immediately in negs that the 
3022
3023fte won't be taken out of the envelope.
302430/11/2015, 15:42 - Y Gourtsouyannis: THE Doh has specifically put 
3025
3026THEIR key priorities in the public document and left out ours. There is 
3027
3028a reason for that. Anyway...i will stop there.
302930/11/2015, 15:42 - D Rouse: That the what ?  What's fte
303030/11/2015, 15:42 - C Bell: Could it be in private doc? Or no
303130/11/2015, 15:42 - D Rouse: Spell it out Johan I'm having a very bad 
3032
3033day
303430/11/2015, 15:43 - L J Davis: I don't trust anything not in writing 
3035
3036and I don't trust nhse.
303730/11/2015, 15:43 - J Malawana: I think we need to consider that 
3038
3039actually if we reject this offer they will attack us very publicly. 
3040
3041However that is something that will be handle able.
304230/11/2015, 15:43 - J Malawana: But
304330/11/2015, 15:43 - Y Gourtsouyannis: If cost neutral IN the public 
3044
3045document its all over. Significant proportion of exec agree.
304630/11/2015, 15:44 - J Malawana: I think we have got the basis of a deal 
3047
3048that is better than anything I would have expected at the beginning of 
3049
3050this.
305130/11/2015, 15:44 - T Crocker-Buque: Yannis please stop speaking FOR 
3052
3053exec members.
305430/11/2015, 15:44 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Johann we will handle the public 
3055
3056attack.
305730/11/2015, 15:44 - T Crocker-Buque: Can we call - I don't understand 
3058
3059what you're saying Johann X
306030/11/2015, 15:44 - A Yassaee: I honestly think we are being deeply 
3061
3062naive if we think we can handle a full out attack.
306330/11/2015, 15:45 - L J Davis: I can't call, but would find explanation 
3064
3065helpful ??
306630/11/2015, 15:45 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Apologise tim...i am not claiming 
3067
3068to speak FOR members. I pointed out the fact that a significant 
3069
3070proportion made their view  lear in th meeting just had
307130/11/2015, 15:45 - Y Gourtsouyannis: The letter as written IS already 
3072
3073an attack.
307430/11/2015, 15:45 - A Yassaee: No trade union has ever survived 
3075
3076govnerment onslaught unless protected by the political opposition
307730/11/2015, 15:46 - L J Davis: Well. As things stand, there's a whole 
3078
3079night ahead to get to something better...
308030/11/2015, 15:46 - K Mohan: M
308130/11/2015, 15:46 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Ok. Agree with LJD on last point. 
3082
3083Anyeay.Thats me done on whatsapp for now. Apologies tim cb if any 
3084
3085misimpression frm previous msg.
308630/11/2015, 15:47 - K Mohan: Oops - what's going on guys? There are 
3087
3088many many messages here
308930/11/2015, 15:47 - J Malawana: The Secretary of State will put it in 
3090
3091his statement.
309230/11/2015, 15:47 - J Malawana: In parliament.
309330/11/2015, 15:47 - J Malawana: That's what he will agree.
309430/11/2015, 15:47 - L J Davis: Saying what?
309530/11/2015, 15:47 - T Crocker-Buque: No problem - it's an emotional 
3096
3097moment!
309830/11/2015, 15:47 - T Crocker-Buque: Saying what exactly
309930/11/2015, 15:47 - J Malawana: That the average cost per junior doctor 
3100
3101will not go down.
310230/11/2015, 15:47 - C Bell: I don't think that's good enough
310330/11/2015, 15:47 - J Malawana: Ie that we won't be paying less for 
3104
3105more junior doctor time.
310630/11/2015, 15:47 - L J Davis: Presumably he has to say it's still 
3107
3108being discussed?
310930/11/2015, 15:48 - J Malawana: It's only if the agreement to suspend 
3110
3111is agreed.
311230/11/2015, 15:48 - L J Davis: (In this context we=gov?)
311330/11/2015, 15:48 - J Malawana: Yes.
311430/11/2015, 15:48 - E McCourt: Can we do this out loud? To many voices
311530/11/2015, 15:48 - K Mohan: Agree with Ellen.
311630/11/2015, 15:49 - J Malawana: Right. Roll call. Accept or reject. 
3117
3118Just one word. I think is last chance. I need it finalised now.
311930/11/2015, 15:49 - L J Davis: I like the idea of JH not being able to 
3120
3121say anything...
312230/11/2015, 15:49 - J Malawana: No other texts.
312330/11/2015, 15:49 - E McCourt: Accept what???
312430/11/2015, 15:49 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Reject
312530/11/2015, 15:49 - K Mohan: I have no idea what is going on.
312630/11/2015, 15:50 - J Malawana: Ok. Let me come over. Scopia.
312730/11/2015, 15:50 - E McCourt: Thanks
312830/11/2015, 15:50 - K Mohan: 617025
312930/11/2015, 15:50 - L J Davis: When?
313030/11/2015, 15:51 - E McCourt: Now I guess
313130/11/2015, 15:51 - C Bell: On way
313230/11/2015, 15:51 - K Mohan: We may miss the speech.
313330/11/2015, 15:52 - K Mohan: Putting Scopia back on in the Corpe.
313430/11/2015, 15:52 - A Yassaee: Do you want us to dial in?
313530/11/2015, 15:53 - E McCourt: Is that 617012 then?
313630/11/2015, 15:53 - D Rouse: What's the telephone
313730/11/2015, 15:53 - D Rouse: For that
313830/11/2015, 15:53 - D Rouse: I need a telephone dial in
313930/11/2015, 15:53 - K Mohan: Yup 617012
314030/11/2015, 15:53 - D Rouse: Guys what's
314130/11/2015, 15:54 - D Rouse: The telephone
314230/11/2015, 15:54 - D Rouse: Dial in
314330/11/2015, 15:54 - C Castles: Are we starting again now?
314430/11/2015, 15:54 - Y Gourtsouyannis: People alrrady  dialing in yed
314530/11/2015, 15:54 - A Yassaee: I have to run to handover but let me 
3146
3147know what you need
314830/11/2015, 15:55 - D Rouse: Hello
314930/11/2015, 15:55 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Ok will ask johanm to put the 
3150
3151question onto whatdapp if poss
315230/11/2015, 15:55 - D Rouse: Why is no one listening
315330/11/2015, 15:56 - D Rouse: What are the telephone dial in does anyone 
3154
3155know
315630/11/2015, 15:56 - M Redman: 02030333911
315730/11/2015, 16:01 - A Yassaee: Has meeting started?
315830/11/2015, 16:02 - M Redman: Johann not here tee
315930/11/2015, 16:02 - M Redman: Yet*
316030/11/2015, 16:02 - A Yassaee: Okay
316130/11/2015, 16:03 - C Sheridan: Ih on now!
316230/11/2015, 16:03 - A Yassaee: Im in handover. It's pretty grim.
316330/11/2015, 16:04 - ?L Elliott: What's the link for the House of 
3164
3165Commons??
316630/11/2015, 16:04 - C Sheridan: Urgent and emergency well done J
316730/11/2015, 16:05 - M Redman: Watch now!!!!
316830/11/2015, 16:05 - ?L Elliott: Where?? What's the link! Arrrrh!
316930/11/2015, 16:07 - C Sheridan: Thats us! #namecheck
317030/11/2015, 16:07 - M Redman: Decision sat with jdc exec
317130/11/2015, 16:08 - M Redman: He said strikes start at midnight
317230/11/2015, 16:08 - M Redman: What an eejit 8am
317330/11/2015, 16:08 - M Redman: <Media omitted>
317430/11/2015, 16:09 - C Sheridan: What a liar - before we saw the offer 
3175
3176indeed
317730/11/2015, 16:09 - C Sheridan: Come on heidi!
317830/11/2015, 16:11 - C Castles: Can someone let me know when the meeting 
3179
3180is restarting, I'm watching TV
318130/11/2015, 16:11 - M Redman: Corpe room empty currently
318230/11/2015, 16:11 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Hunt: 'bma Called the strike 
3183
3184before seeing the offer' PURE lie
318530/11/2015, 16:12 - A Collins: Can someone ring me if we're meeting? 
3186
3187I'm not near email or good signal.
318830/11/2015, 16:12 - C Castles: Are they all watching the hunt and Heidi 
3189
3190show?
319130/11/2015, 16:12 - A Yassaee: Yeah ditto
319230/11/2015, 16:14 - C Castles: Is it still on any other channel?
319330/11/2015, 16:14 - C Sheridan: Good speech Heidi cant wait to see the 
3194
3195answer
319630/11/2015, 16:14 - C Castles: Bbc news has gone back to newsroom
319730/11/2015, 16:14 - E McCourt: Bbc parliament
319830/11/2015, 16:14 - C Sheridan: On bbc parliament
319930/11/2015, 16:14 - M Redman: Yes on house of commons live still on
320030/11/2015, 16:14 - A Sami: 
3201
3202http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/live/bbcparliament
320330/11/2015, 16:15 - C Castles: Got it thanks
320430/11/2015, 16:15 - A Borbora: How was this leaked?
320530/11/2015, 16:15 - M Redman: By hunt himself
320630/11/2015, 16:15 - A Yassaee: what did he specifically say re. the 
3207
3208deal?
320930/11/2015, 16:15 - M Redman: He directly said it's with jdc exec
321030/11/2015, 16:15 - M Redman: And that ia may be postponed
321130/11/2015, 16:15 - A Yassaee: Okay
321230/11/2015, 16:15 - M Redman: Depending on jdc execs decision
321330/11/2015, 16:16 - J Malawana: Ok am walking in. Everyone on scopia 
3214
3215after his exchange.
321630/11/2015, 16:17 - M Redman: The reason he didn't respond to acas 'bc 
3217
3218I then made a private approach to head of bma to see if they're was 
3219
3220enough common ground'
322130/11/2015, 16:17 - M Redman: Is this true????????
322230/11/2015, 16:17 - A Yassaee: I'm in handover. I'll dial in when i 
3223
3224can.
322530/11/2015, 16:17 - T Crocker-Buque: Hunt just said that imposition is 
3226
3227not removed.
322830/11/2015, 16:18 - C Castles: Heidi is doing a good job of maintaining 
3229
3230her incredulous look
323130/11/2015, 16:19 - M Redman: Aneurin Bevan didn't listen to bma blah 
3232
3233blah
323430/11/2015, 16:19 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Basically he said 'potential' 
3235
3236agreement. 'decision lies with exec' but clearly also said that 
3237
3238currently IA stands then he listed all the operations that will be 
3239
3240cancelled.  AND NOW IN RESPONSE TO HEIDIS question he has gone on all 
3241
3242out attack
324330/11/2015, 16:19 - C Castles: Yay, militants
324430/11/2015, 16:19 - L J Davis: Ping a msg when I should dial back in
324530/11/2015, 16:21 - C Castles: Well, he corrected the time at least
324630/11/2015, 16:22 - C Castles: Fix 7 day services from within the 
3247
3248current pay envelope
324930/11/2015, 16:22 - A Borbora: Classic bully tactics
325030/11/2015, 16:22 - Z Greaves: Crikey spend 30 mins in the car and 
3251
3252there's 168 messages!
325330/11/2015, 16:23 - A Borbora: This man is contemptible 
3254I don't see how we can make any deals in these circumstances 
3255We will be under huge member pressure to resist now 
3256This is the worst outcome
325730/11/2015, 16:23 - A Yassaee: Yeah this is awful.
325830/11/2015, 16:24 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Even i am surprised at the 
3259
3260blatant nature of the attack
326130/11/2015, 16:24 - A Borbora: A straight no or yes would have been 
3262
3263preferable 
3264I appologise for my absence today. I'm febrile and have only just left 
3265
3266my bed
326730/11/2015, 16:25 - C Castles: This has been his tactic all along - 
3268
3269appear to offer something to us, then immediately publically attack us
327030/11/2015, 16:25 - C Sheridan: These comments are nothing to do with 
3271
3272why our contract needs to change
327330/11/2015, 16:25 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Now worries aaron...we will let u 
3274
3275knw if there is a vote or not
327630/11/2015, 16:26 - L J Davis: What did he say?
327730/11/2015, 16:26 - ?L Elliott: I'm here with him so can tell him 
3278
3279what's occurring
328030/11/2015, 16:27 - D Rouse: So what's happened
328130/11/2015, 16:27 - A Borbora: The sun are outside your flat
328230/11/2015, 16:27 - C Castles: Haha
328330/11/2015, 16:28 - C Sheridan: Emergency care is not being withdrawn - 
3284
3285its being provided by career grade drs and other nhs folks. Makes me 
3286
3287mad!
328830/11/2015, 16:28 - C Castles: Ohh, good question gisela
328930/11/2015, 16:29 - C Castles: Poor answer
329030/11/2015, 16:29 - Z Greaves: Ok I am now getting onto trains I will 
3291
3292have to see what signal is like but is meeting still in progress?
329330/11/2015, 16:30 - M Redman: We're logged on zoe but all watching 
3294
3295house of commons
329630/11/2015, 16:33 - D Tooth: What is happening please
329730/11/2015, 16:33 - D Rouse: Johann. We need you in the room
329830/11/2015, 16:34 - C Castles: I was lobbying this guy last week
329930/11/2015, 16:35 - M Redman: Donna. Hunt is answering Qs in house of 
3300
3301commons
3302He's said decision lies with jdc exec, ia may be cancelled
330330/11/2015, 16:35 - M Redman: Mtg is postponed until end of hunts chat
330430/11/2015, 16:36 - T Crocker-Buque: He is odious, and a liar, but he's 
3305
3306backed into a corner. He seems very fraught.
330730/11/2015, 16:36 - K Mohan: We're back in the room
330830/11/2015, 16:37 - K Mohan: As in the Corpe room
330930/11/2015, 16:37 - J Malawana: Can everyone login?
331030/11/2015, 16:37 - A Yassaee: Are we ready to rumble?
331130/11/2015, 16:37 - A Yassaee: If so i will ask handover to be paused.
331230/11/2015, 16:37 - A Collins: number please??
331330/11/2015, 16:38 - Z Greaves: You may lose me train wifi is sketchy
331430/11/2015, 16:39 - T Crocker-Buque: GO DAWN BUTLER!!!
331530/11/2015, 16:39 - L J Davis: Oh dear. JH isn't winning me over
331630/11/2015, 16:42 - L J Davis: Oo yeah, diss us while we consider... 
3317
3318Helpful
331930/11/2015, 16:42 - M Redman: 02030333911
332030/11/2015, 16:43 - L J Davis: Now?
332130/11/2015, 16:43 - A Sami: Now
332230/11/2015, 16:43 - M Redman: Melody
332330/11/2015, 16:52 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Please post here if u want to 
3324
3325speak. As per johann request
332630/11/2015, 16:52 - C Castles: I have the same scopia system here as 
3327
3328you have in London, shouldn't be a problem
332930/11/2015, 16:52 - A Sami: Melody, you are cutting off. Dial in, may 
3330
3331be
333230/11/2015, 16:54 - C Castles: Sorry, I need to run to the meeting 
3333
3334downstairs, I'll join you again shortly.
333530/11/2015, 16:55 - T Crocker-Buque: I believe them when they say if we 
3336
3337go ahead with tomorrow everything will be back off the table.
333830/11/2015, 16:55 - A Borbora: Can't hear anything
333930/11/2015, 16:57 - J Malawana: Can you hear Mark?
334030/11/2015, 16:57 - M Redman: I can via phone
334130/11/2015, 16:57 - T Crocker-Buque: Yes
334230/11/2015, 16:57 - H Carter: Yes
334330/11/2015, 16:57 - J Malawana: Cool
334430/11/2015, 16:58 - J Malawana: I have to say I think Tim is right. I 
3345
3346think this is actually a good deal
334730/11/2015, 16:58 - T Crocker-Buque: Does he think we should accept 
3348
3349cost neutrality in the public statement?
335030/11/2015, 16:59 - J Malawana: I can get the cost neutrality specific 
3351
3352in writing. Not going to say that out loud at this point given whoelss 
3353
3354in room
335530/11/2015, 16:59 - C Castles: I'm case I'm not back on time, I think 
3356
3357his statement said that 7 day services will come from the cost 
3358
3359envelope, I'm concerned about the inclusion of this cost neutrality at 
3360
3361this late stage in the agreement, and feel we shouldn't rush to make a 
3362
3363decision tonight if we are not agreed in what is best.
336430/11/2015, 17:00 - K Mohan: Is mark staying in the room?
336530/11/2015, 17:01 - J Malawana: I think we should?
336630/11/2015, 17:01 - H Carter: Yes we should
336730/11/2015, 17:01 - H Carter: Sorry.
336830/11/2015, 17:01 - A Collins: Sorry, I've had to go, but could someone 
3369
3370say on my behalf, much as I said before, the wording states it's just a 
3371
3372starting point. That's OK. We're not accepting the outcome as cost 
3373
3374neutral. 
3375
3376The CSR and the ongoing discussions about funding make clear that there 
3377
3378is more money, and we can hold them to that in negs. I do not think we 
3379
3380can tenably persist with the IA based solely on cost. That will not be 
3381
3382acceptable to the public, and will not be acceptable to membership. 
3383
3384If Johann can get it in private writing that there will be more money, 
3385
3386then do it. 
3387
3388Ps, ignore Keith.
338930/11/2015, 17:01 - A Collins: Collins out. Xoxo
339030/11/2015, 17:05 - T Crocker-Buque: I agree with Andrew
339130/11/2015, 17:05 - T Crocker-Buque: Let's work with this
339230/11/2015, 17:06 - L J Davis: Hey can I comment?
339330/11/2015, 17:09 - L J Davis: Me!
339430/11/2015, 17:10 - L J Davis: Moi!
339530/11/2015, 17:13 - E McCourt: Ellen
339630/11/2015, 17:13 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Got it
339730/11/2015, 17:13 - L J Davis: Me me me! Can someone wave at Johann for 
3398
3399me?
340030/11/2015, 17:13 - E McCourt: Yannis is keeping the list!
340130/11/2015, 17:13 - Z Greaves: Kitty has a message from me I'd like 
3402
3403read please
340430/11/2015, 17:13 - C Sheridan: Can i be added to list to speak please 
3405
3406too
340730/11/2015, 17:14 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Have told him
340830/11/2015, 17:15 - A Sami: Amjad caslling from mobile
340930/11/2015, 17:16 - C Sheridan: If we're on scopia do we need to 
3410
3411confirm?
341230/11/2015, 17:23 - C Sheridan: Have dialled in now
341330/11/2015, 17:32 - T Crocker-Buque: I sympathise with Yannis, but I 
3414
3415think the way forwards is to negotiate on these issues.
341630/11/2015, 17:32 - E McCourt: What is the end of the unfinished hours 
3417
3418sentance?
341930/11/2015, 17:32 - E McCourt: In the 9 points?
342030/11/2015, 17:32 - T Crocker-Buque: There is no end - that's it. Read 
3421
3422it with the lead sentence at the bottom of the first paragraph.
342330/11/2015, 17:32 - T Crocker-Buque: Then it makes sense
342430/11/2015, 17:32 - E McCourt: Ok
342530/11/2015, 17:39 - C Sheridan: <Media omitted>
342630/11/2015, 17:40 - L J Davis: Bma webshite is down... Again.
342730/11/2015, 17:41 - Z Greaves: I'm on the phone but externally muted
342830/11/2015, 17:41 - C Sheridan: I think the risk is ppl feel WE have 
3429
3430messed them around cancelling IA and not the government which might 
3431
3432lose us participation of members in any future IA. That and just 
3433
3434general fatigue of members if this rolls on too long. Think we should 
3435
3436go back and give it up to the 8 weeks though. Far from ideal, but i 
3437
3438think worthwhile at this point
343930/11/2015, 17:44 - C Sheridan: Is vote voting members only again?
344030/11/2015, 17:44 - A Sami: I think so
344130/11/2015, 17:45 - T Crocker-Buque: Accept
344230/11/2015, 17:45 - M Redman: Postpone
344330/11/2015, 17:45 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Reject
344430/11/2015, 17:45 - K Mohan: Accept
344530/11/2015, 17:45 - L J Davis: Accept
344630/11/2015, 17:45 - H Carter: Accept
344730/11/2015, 17:45 - M Redman: Accept sorry
344830/11/2015, 17:45 - D Rouse: Accept
344930/11/2015, 17:45 - Z Greaves: Accept
345030/11/2015, 17:45 - E McCourt: Accept
345130/11/2015, 17:45 - J Malawana: Adam: accept
345230/11/2015, 17:46 - C Castles: Its this voting members only?
345330/11/2015, 17:46 - D Rouse: Yes
345430/11/2015, 17:46 - Z Greaves: Ah just throw a vote in anyway and see 
3455
3456if they'll count it ;)
345730/11/2015, 17:46 - K Mohan: Aaron: accept
345830/11/2015, 17:46 - K Mohan: Lottie: accept
345930/11/2015, 17:47 - L J Davis: I'm going now. Good luck all xxx
346030/11/2015, 17:47 - C Sheridan: Luke is non voting i think?
346130/11/2015, 17:47 - L J Davis: I've already voted!!!
346230/11/2015, 17:47 - M Redman: Arrash says accept
346330/11/2015, 17:47 - M Redman: He just texted me
346430/11/2015, 17:48 - K Mohan: Andrew: reject
346530/11/2015, 17:49 - A Sami: Do not forget JDC!
346630/11/2015, 17:49 - C Castles: If it's counted, I reject
346730/11/2015, 17:49 - L J Davis: One final point; support materials 
3468
3469(lanyards, stickers, etc) to EVERY MEMBER over the next few weeks.
347030/11/2015, 17:51 - C Sheridan: <Media omitted>
347130/11/2015, 17:51 - D Tooth: What are we doing
347230/11/2015, 17:57 - A Collins: Can I speak?
347330/11/2015, 17:57 - M Redman: We've all gone collins
347430/11/2015, 17:58 - M Redman: Donna, we've accepted deal and are 
3475
3476postponing for now, just waiting for comms before we can tell everyone
347730/11/2015, 17:58 - A Yassaee: Yeah do we have an estimate of when 
3478
3479it'll go out?
348030/11/2015, 17:59 - M Redman: Johann left room to go sort it out 
3481
3482straight away and said it will b v soon
348330/11/2015, 17:59 - A Yassaee: Cool
348430/11/2015, 17:59 - M Redman: I'm refreshing listserv and  bma Twitter 
3485
3486feed lol
348730/11/2015, 17:59 - A Yassaee: I'm being peppered by questions is all. 
3488
3489I imagine we all are.
349030/11/2015, 18:12 - A Borbora: From the sun?
349130/11/2015, 18:12 - J Malawana: It is on the JDC listserver from me.
349230/11/2015, 18:12 - A Borbora: We hate the sun on merseyside
349330/11/2015, 18:12 - J Malawana: Please feel free to comment.
349430/11/2015, 18:12 - D Rouse: Does that mean
349530/11/2015, 18:12 - D Rouse: The medical students
349630/11/2015, 18:12 - D Rouse: Can release it
349730/11/2015, 18:12 - J Malawana: I will work on the rest in due course.
349830/11/2015, 18:12 - D Rouse: On their server
349930/11/2015, 18:13 - H Carter: I'm doing that now
350030/11/2015, 18:13 - A Yassaee: Is this just within bma circles for now?
350130/11/2015, 18:13 - H Carter: On behalf of Charlie and I
350230/11/2015, 18:13 - C Sheridan: Can i forward to scottish lists?
350330/11/2015, 18:13 - D Rouse: Johann where r you
350430/11/2015, 18:13 - A Borbora: I'll send it to the sun after I've 
3505
3506finished with the times
350730/11/2015, 18:14 - Z Greaves: Seriously how dare the sun try and stalk 
3508
3509our Jdc members - bad enough officers but ordinary   is 
3510
3511unconscionable!!!
351230/11/2015, 18:16 - A Borbora: They've got form 
3513Hacking 
3514Hillsbrough
351530/11/2015, 18:16 - A Borbora: That's the sun. We love it.
351630/11/2015, 18:16 - Z Greaves: Hmm
351730/11/2015, 18:17 - A Borbora: It's actually quite hard to buy the 
3518
3519paper in Liverpool
352030/11/2015, 18:17 - T Crocker-Buque: Could someone forward me the JDC 
3521
3522email please
352330/11/2015, 18:17 - A Borbora: So I'll have to drive out of town to 
3524
3525read about David's party lifestyle
352630/11/2015, 18:17 - Z Greaves: Also Johann can we have another email 
3527
3528hot on that ones tail explaining the decision and reiterating the 
3529
3530importance of keeping questions internal to jdc and  maintaining a 
3531
3532united front on social media
353330/11/2015, 18:20 - C Castles: When can we share this on local 
3534
3535listservers?
353630/11/2015, 18:20 - C Sheridan: And national ones ??
353730/11/2015, 18:21 - C Castles: That's what I meant
353830/11/2015, 18:22 - C Sheridan: Bbc news at 6 still reporting uncertain 
3539
3540if strike will happen
354130/11/2015, 18:23 - L Boyle: Yeah
354230/11/2015, 18:30 - C Sheridan: I understand Johann you will probably 
3543
3544be very busy just now. Im very keen our reps outside JDC dont find out 
3545
3546elsewhere later so If i dont hear back saying NOT to in the next 10mins 
3547
3548im going to post to SJDC and Scottish council as we'll need to postpone 
3549
3550our "solidarity" stickers badges etc plans tomorrow
355130/11/2015, 18:32 - L J Davis: Even; might be better if it doesn't go 
3552
3553to Scottish reps before England...
355430/11/2015, 18:32 - L J Davis: Oops - not even!
355530/11/2015, 18:33 - L J Davis: Please can you hold off & we'll chase at 
3556
3557this end...
355830/11/2015, 18:33 - C Sheridan: Indeed LJD hoping it can go to RJDCs at 
3559
3560same time if we all get confirmation we can post
356130/11/2015, 18:33 - C Sheridan: Ok - thanks ?
356230/11/2015, 18:33 - L J Davis: Yeah, that'd be better.
356330/11/2015, 18:34 - C Castles: Yeah, that would be good if we could 
3564
3565post to nations at the same sort of time
356630/11/2015, 18:34 - L J Davis: (I'm not in London, so dependent on 
3567
3568chasing officers!!!)
356930/11/2015, 18:34 - K Mohan: Can one of the officers possibly find out 
3570
3571please? I think we all need to tell our reps. But presumably not yet?
357230/11/2015, 18:34 - D Rouse: Hold fire
357330/11/2015, 18:35 - C Sheridan: Though if it pops up on the news 
3574
3575obviously i think we should all just get on with posting and get ahead 
3576
3577of it. The government has form with just chucking stuff out
357830/11/2015, 18:36 - L J Davis: (I'm chasing!!!) ??
357930/11/2015, 18:36 - C Castles: Yeah, Hunt will no doubt want to 
3580
3581announce his big victory in preventing strikes
358230/11/2015, 18:36 - Z Greaves: You mean in capitulating to our demands 
3583
3584??
358530/11/2015, 18:37 - K Mohan: It's on FB
358630/11/2015, 18:37 - C Castles: FFS
358730/11/2015, 18:37 - L J Davis: Who?
358830/11/2015, 18:38 - Z Greaves: What?
358930/11/2015, 18:38 - K Mohan: On an individual's FB
359030/11/2015, 18:38 - K Mohan: Tom mickelwright.
359130/11/2015, 18:38 - A Sami: No way!
359230/11/2015, 18:38 - D Rouse: We have a radiologist
359330/11/2015, 18:38 - D Rouse: In mersy who has a source too
359430/11/2015, 18:38 - H Carter: I saw that
359530/11/2015, 18:38 - D Rouse: On Twitter
359630/11/2015, 18:38 - H Carter: But how does he know??
359730/11/2015, 18:38 - C Sheridan: Right. Can we all just get on with 
3598
3599posting then? Its not changing the outcome telling people now. The more 
3600
3601notice the better
360230/11/2015, 18:38 - Z Greaves: Who is he, and who does he know?
360330/11/2015, 18:38 - L J Davis: Ok. We have a leak.
360430/11/2015, 18:39 - A Borbora: The news is out is it not?
360530/11/2015, 18:39 - A Borbora: It's out on JDC
360630/11/2015, 18:39 - C Castles: We sent it to jdc, what did we think was 
3607
3608going to happen
360930/11/2015, 18:39 - L J Davis: We have to, but please can we cascade to 
3610
3611English reps first? Thanks!
361230/11/2015, 18:39 - A Sami: It is not out yet, as far as I know. Have I 
3613
3614missed something?
3615
3616Amjad
361730/11/2015, 18:39 - K Mohan: It's from the MSC statement that has been 
3618
3619cut and paste into the junior doctor whatsapp group.
362030/11/2015, 18:39 - C Castles: If it's online, nations will know 
3621
3622already
362330/11/2015, 18:40 - H Carter: I think the officers need to make a 
3624
3625critical decision and to make it soon, before everybody loses it. From 
3626
3627my listserver?
362830/11/2015, 18:40 - C Sheridan: Lets just do it now then. Can everyone 
3629
3630start emailing RJDCs?
363130/11/2015, 18:41 - D Rouse: No
363230/11/2015, 18:41 - L J Davis: No
363330/11/2015, 18:41 - D Rouse: No not announce until statement out
363430/11/2015, 18:41 - L J Davis: Please wait
363530/11/2015, 18:41 - D Rouse: Do not announce until statement out
363630/11/2015, 18:41 - K Mohan: No what?
363730/11/2015, 18:41 - D Rouse: From Johan and officers
363830/11/2015, 18:41 - A Sami: BMA website is down. I cannot email RJDCs 
3639
3640even if it is OK.
3641
3642And Johann has not given the green light yet
364330/11/2015, 18:42 - Z Greaves: Can we put that on the Jdc list server 
3644
3645then please - there are rjdc chairs not in this group who are itching 
3646
3647to share too
364830/11/2015, 18:42 - K Mohan: Guys, on the junior doctors forum whatsapp 
3649
3650group an email from Charlie and Harry to Msc has been cut and paste.
365130/11/2015, 18:42 - C Castles: This is shit, the comms is already 
3652
3653messed up
365430/11/2015, 18:43 - C Sheridan: Johann has already sent a statement to 
3655
3656jdc - im only suggesting we circulate that to N/RJDCs? Whats the 
3657
3658risk/concern?
365930/11/2015, 18:43 - A Collins: Obviously we need to move fast with out 
3660
3661announcements now please.
366230/11/2015, 18:44 - M Redman: <Media omitted>
366330/11/2015, 18:44 - A Sami: NRJDC members are members of JDC listserver 
3664
3665anyway, Chris
366630/11/2015, 18:44 - A Yassaee: Waiting for what exactly? What is the 
3667
3668specific concern now that one of the statements is public anyway?
366930/11/2015, 18:46 - C Castles: Not nijdc chairs, the members of n and r 
3670
3671jdcs
367230/11/2015, 18:46 - C Sheridan: am not talking about the NRJDC 
3673
3674listserver amjad, talking about members of the N/RJDCs themselves
367530/11/2015, 18:46 - C Sheridan: Thanks Conan, quicker fingers!
367630/11/2015, 18:46 - C Castles: :-)
367730/11/2015, 18:47 - C Castles: I'm on the side of the road waiting to 
3678
3679email nijdc
368030/11/2015, 18:47 - A Sami: Sorry, my bad
368130/11/2015, 18:47 - C Castles: I'll put it on the fb page as soon as we 
3682
3683have green light to release it
368430/11/2015, 18:48 - T Crocker-Buque: <Media omitted>
368530/11/2015, 18:49 - T Crocker-Buque: Ha been released and picked up by 
3686
3687Shaun Lintern by MSC dep
368830/11/2015, 18:49 - A Yassaee: We can't surely wait much longer?
368930/11/2015, 18:49 - ?L Elliott: We need to get it out to EVERYONE ASAP.
369030/11/2015, 18:49 - ?L Elliott: I know this is obvious
369130/11/2015, 18:50 - Z Greaves: That guy must never sleep!
369230/11/2015, 18:50 - C Castles: Each minute passing is costing us
369330/11/2015, 18:51 - A Yassaee: I now have two people telling me that IA 
3694
3695is off
369630/11/2015, 18:51 - A Yassaee: Am I still not able to say anything to 
3697
3698them?
369930/11/2015, 18:51 - C Castles: Any officers available?
370030/11/2015, 18:52 - C Castles: The fuckup meter is slowly rising
370130/11/2015, 18:53 - C Sheridan: Right. It is in the public domain and 
3702
3703will spread soon enough. I think we need to comminicate this internally 
3704
3705- simply Johanns JDC post. We should want people to know asap they are 
3706
3707going to work tomorrow to allow them to plan - what if they need to 
3708
3709sort childcare etc now?
371030/11/2015, 18:54 - A Collier Who the hell told Ryan. Genuinely 
3711
3712unimpressed
371330/11/2015, 18:54 - C Castles: There is only so long I am prepared to 
3714
3715wait to tell my committtee what is in the public domain.
371630/11/2015, 18:54 - E McCourt: Am sorting an answer 2 minutes
371730/11/2015, 18:54 - C Castles: Thank you Ellen
371830/11/2015, 18:54 - H Carter: Andrew the decision was made at the 
3719
3720meeting to put this on MSC listserver too
372130/11/2015, 18:55 - K Mohan: Presumably they were told it was 
3722
3723confidential. So that's  just the way it is.
372430/11/2015, 18:55 - C Sheridan: Thanks Ellen. Im yet to hear the 
3725
3726problem with us just passing Johanns announcement on
372730/11/2015, 18:56 - A Collier Apologies Harry I hadn't seen it on the 
3728
3729listservers
373030/11/2015, 18:56 - K Mohan: Only MSC and JDC I think.
373130/11/2015, 18:56 - H Carter: Yes, Kitty. They were of course told that 
3732
3733they shouldn't share anything and I'm sorry that somebody did.
373430/11/2015, 18:57 - K Mohan: Not on cc yet. Els is waiting.
373530/11/2015, 18:57 - K Mohan: That's not your fault, Harry. Don't 
3736
3737apologise.
373830/11/2015, 18:57 - E McCourt: We are not allowed to officially share 
3739
3740beyond JDC list until ACAS release statement.
374130/11/2015, 18:57 - E McCourt: The second ACAS publish we ca share 
3742
3743widely
374430/11/2015, 18:57 - ?L Elliott: When will that be do we know?
374530/11/2015, 18:58 - E McCourt: ACAS and johann and mark porter are in 
3746
3747room now
374830/11/2015, 18:59 - E McCourt: They are all aware that it is already 
3749
3750out there
375130/11/2015, 18:59 - A Collier Not your apology to give Harry so don't 
3752
3753worry.
375430/11/2015, 18:59 - A Collier Accept my apologies for posting a pent up 
3755
3756fury in haste.
375730/11/2015, 19:00 - A Collier In other spectacularly bad timing the 
3758
3759celebrity junior contract video has just launched
376030/11/2015, 19:00 - H Carter: You don't need to apologise for that, 
3761
3762either!
376330/11/2015, 19:01 - C Sheridan: Thanks for the clarification Ellen - i 
3764
3765guess im just confused why telling msc and jdc is ok but not other 
3766
3767reps?
376830/11/2015, 19:01 - T Crocker-Buque: Not bad timing - they support our 
3769
3770cause. That pressure has got us movement on the deal. I think everyone 
3771
3772would recognise that is a good outcome.
377330/11/2015, 19:01 - E McCourt: Honestly, I don't know.
377430/11/2015, 19:02 - A Collier Today has been extraordinarily 
3775
3776frustrating, if there is no other positive outcome could we 
3777
3778collectively push for better TC equipment?
377930/11/2015, 19:02 - Z Greaves: No harm reminding them just how good the 
3780
3781arsenal was
378230/11/2015, 19:02 - K Mohan: Can someone post to JDC that waiting for 
3783
3784acas?
378530/11/2015, 19:02 - A Collier But it's a bit confusing to launch right 
3786
3787now though.
378830/11/2015, 19:02 - E McCourt: Aaron is about to
378930/11/2015, 19:07 - Z Greaves: Even the reception staff at Hilton 
3790
3791wanted to know if strike was going ahead!
379230/11/2015, 19:07 - D Rouse: As soon as we know the officers will say.
379330/11/2015, 19:08 - D Rouse: ACAS has released
379430/11/2015, 19:08 - D Rouse: Information can go
379530/11/2015, 19:09 - D Rouse: The media office and Mark has said yes
379630/11/2015, 19:09 - E McCourt: Share info with your groups please!
379730/11/2015, 19:09 - ?L Elliott: Where's the statement then?
379830/11/2015, 19:09 - D Rouse: Sean Linton has tweeted
379930/11/2015, 19:10 - ?L Elliott: It's not there
380030/11/2015, 19:10 - D Rouse: I have been informed by
380130/11/2015, 19:10 - D Rouse: Mark porter and the media office
380230/11/2015, 19:10 - D Rouse: I am sat here now
380330/11/2015, 19:10 - D Rouse: In the media office
380430/11/2015, 19:11 - M Redman: <Media omitted>
380530/11/2015, 19:11 - H Carter: Where's the statement?
380630/11/2015, 19:11 - ?L Elliott: The statement
380730/11/2015, 19:12 - T Crocker-Buque: Where's the statement
380830/11/2015, 19:13 - A Sami: We have today reached an agreement with the 
3809
3810DH and NHSE about IA and will be not proceeding with action temporarily 
3811
3812tomorrow. I and many have been clear that if we got an acceptable 
3813
3814starting point for negotiations then IA is not an end in itself. We 
3815
3816have a significantly better starting point for negotiations and 
3817
3818assurances
381930/11/2015, 19:13 - A Sami: This is what I am using now
382030/11/2015, 19:13 - E McCourt: Back out of bed, give me another 2 
3821
3822minutes.
382330/11/2015, 19:17 - C Castles: Bbc news have story online
382430/11/2015, 19:20 - E McCourt: 
3825
3826https://communities.bma.org.uk/junior_doctors_industrial_action/b/junio
3827
3828r_doctors_ia/archive/2015/11/30/full-statement-from-acas
382930/11/2015, 19:21 - L J Davis: Thanks Chris & Conan for holding off; 
3830
3831realise it was frustrating, but very much appreciated.
383230/11/2015, 19:22 - Y Gourtsouyannis: We can post the above now...r.e 
3833
3834acas on bma communities?
383530/11/2015, 19:22 - L J Davis: Hopefully there won't be a next time for 
3836
3837dealing with acas but then we'll know the correct order for releasing 
3838
3839details!!!
384030/11/2015, 19:22 - L J Davis: Yes
384130/11/2015, 19:26 - C Castles: I didn't know we had agreed that acas 
3842
3843could release something before we could
384430/11/2015, 19:26 - T Crocker-Buque: That's how ACAS works
384530/11/2015, 19:26 - A Borbora: That's always the way
384630/11/2015, 19:27 - L J Davis: (Conan, I didn't know that either... 
3847
3848It's got to be worth some cpd points?)
384930/11/2015, 19:27 - C Castles: I had never heard of acas until we 
3850
3851offered their services and have no idea how they normally work.
385230/11/2015, 19:27 - L J Davis: ??
385330/11/2015, 19:28 - C Castles: I think the last weekend has got to be 
3854
3855worth a lot of cpd
385630/11/2015, 19:29 - L J Davis: Do we have a contact number for media? 
3857
3858Got local reps being contacted for interviews...
385930/11/2015, 19:29 - L J Davis: They want to get the 'party line' 
3860
3861ready...
386230/11/2015, 19:30 - K Mohan: 02073836448
386330/11/2015, 19:32 - D Rouse: I am stood next to media department
386430/11/2015, 19:32 - D Rouse: I have let them know
386530/11/2015, 19:36 - T Crocker-Buque: I think a lot of people are 
3866
3867feeling like Trish:
386830/11/2015, 19:36 - T Crocker-Buque: <Media omitted>
386930/11/2015, 19:37 - C Sheridan: Can i also check if an all member email 
3870
3871is going out imminently will it be going to 4 nations?
387230/11/2015, 19:37 - T Crocker-Buque: I've already got an email from 
3873
3874Mark
387530/11/2015, 19:41 - C Sheridan: Hmm. I dont. Anyone else?
387630/11/2015, 19:42 - C Castles: Nope
387730/11/2015, 19:42 - C Castles: Maybe England only
387830/11/2015, 19:42 - M Redman: I do
387930/11/2015, 19:43 - C Sheridan: Could someone (Tim or Melody) forward 
3880
3881me please? sheridan.cp@gmail.com
388230/11/2015, 19:46 - K Mohan: Anyone else getting calls from 
3883
388402070323000?
388530/11/2015, 19:46 - A Borbora: Had a few media calls which we've 
3886
3887diverted to the media office
388830/11/2015, 19:47 - A Borbora: Maybe it's the sun?
388930/11/2015, 19:47 - K Mohan: David are you still in the media office?
389030/11/2015, 19:48 - K Mohan: Caroline from sky news just text me.
389130/11/2015, 19:50 - A Yassaee: Yeah sky news have been peppering my 
3892
3893voice mail
389430/11/2015, 19:54 - D Rouse: Yes
389530/11/2015, 19:54 - D Rouse: Kitty
389630/11/2015, 19:54 - D Rouse: Sky is coming here
389730/11/2015, 19:54 - D Rouse: Let Johann get out there first
389830/11/2015, 19:55 - D Rouse: He is just being prepped now.
389930/11/2015, 19:56 - K Mohan: Yes spoke to val. Gotta love val.
390030/11/2015, 19:58 - A Borbora: So far member reaction is 9:1 positive
390130/11/2015, 19:59 - A Borbora: One "you've sold us down the river." 
3902
3903Rest have been thanks and good work
390430/11/2015, 19:59 - A Borbora: I haven't seen the sun yet
390530/11/2015, 19:59 - A Borbora: But that's radiology
390630/11/2015, 20:00 - A Borbora: Dunno what they'd make of my frequent 
3907
3908holidays
390930/11/2015, 20:00 - D Rouse: O have just been contacted from sky news
391030/11/2015, 20:01 - A Borbora: Id be surprised if the sun dared to come 
3911
3912to Liverpool
391330/11/2015, 20:01 - A Borbora: If they did then there are people here 
3914
3915who'd physically abuse them
391630/11/2015, 20:02 - D Rouse: Guys. If you are contacted by media 
3917
3918tonight comms think it best to let Johann do the talking tonight.  And 
3919
3920then contact the media office re any other requests
392130/11/2015, 20:03 - A Borbora: Lottie and I have had a few calls and 
3922
3923have done just that
392430/11/2015, 20:08 - C Sheridan: Thanks tim and melody. Have now just 
3925
3926received my own copy!
392730/11/2015, 20:13 - C Castles: Got mine too,plus a text
392830/11/2015, 20:39 - A Collins: No one has rung me. ??
392930/11/2015, 20:40 - L J Davis: You've been wailed enough, haven't you 
3930
3931Adam? ??
393230/11/2015, 20:42 - A Collins: ??I suppose
393330/11/2015, 20:56 - C Castles: What level of detail is currently 
3934
3935releasable about the agreements?
393630/11/2015, 21:00 - A Collins: The whole memorandum and nothing of the 
3937
39389
393930/11/2015, 21:01 - C Castles: Just checking the moa had been released
394030/11/2015, 21:01 - A Collins: Yeah it's on BMA communities :)
394130/11/2015, 21:01 - C Castles: Grand, just to answer some of the 
3942
3943questions about the decision
394430/11/2015, 21:04 - M Redman: <Media omitted>
394530/11/2015, 21:05 - Y Gourtsouyannis: So Jeremy has made a gloating 
3946
3947interview to the BBC and a gloating tweet. As expected. So far we have 
3948
3949the innane bma and mark porter tweet. Where is our agressive spin 
3950
3951machine? Ultimately if we as an organisation feel that this is a 
3952
3953success then i am sure we will b able to get the message accross. If we 
3954
3955dont trully believe that this is a success then we wont. Johann...when 
3956
3957u do your interview please GO FOR IT. ALL GUNS BLAZING.
395830/11/2015, 21:05 - C Castles: The man doesn't know when to stay quiet
395930/11/2015, 21:06 - C Castles: Jeremy that is, not yannis - unfortunate 
3960
3961timing
396230/11/2015, 21:06 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Ha ha ha!
396330/11/2015, 21:06 - A Collins: Neither does mark.
396430/11/2015, 21:06 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Thays my first smile in the last 
3965
39663 hrs...thanks conan!
396730/11/2015, 21:06 - C Castles: Any time
396830/11/2015, 21:08 - B Roberts: Been in the wilderness all day apart 
3969
3970from my brief foray into TC earlier. I've rather enjoyed reading my 522 
3971
3972unread messages. I almost didn't know how things might have panned 
3973
3974out...
397530/11/2015, 21:12 - A Collins: Your fault for being in Wales really 
3976
3977innit? ;)
397830/11/2015, 21:13 - A Yassaee: It's fine. It'll soon become apparent 
3979
3980that this is more important than one minister's premiership ambitions.
398130/11/2015, 21:14 - T Crocker-Buque: Hunt looks like an idiot. As 
3982
3983usual.
398430/11/2015, 21:15 - B Roberts: No contract imposition in Wales but the 
3985
3986pay-off is no wifi!
398730/11/2015, 21:22 - A Collins: Haha
398830/11/2015, 21:23 - L J Davis: Just been badgered by an unimpressed 
3989
3990looking Dr in theatre recovery who got involved in a discussion with my 
3991
3992mum about the IA being called off... Think it's just as well I'm not 
3993
3994doing interviews; I'm completely exhausted, but other than lots of 
3995
3996machines that go ping & many many lines & tubes, my mum is well enough 
3997
3998to be talking about her views on IA... :)
399930/11/2015, 21:23 - L J Davis: Random, eh?
400030/11/2015, 21:31 - J Malawana: Have done the pooled interview.
400130/11/2015, 21:31 - J Malawana: Hope it's ok. I didn't go with the guns 
4002
4003blazing as we still need a deal and I don't want to fuck that up.
400430/11/2015, 21:32 - J Malawana: But I did tell the Yannis is fair game 
4005
4006and they definitely should go look at his palatial accommodation.
400730/11/2015, 21:50 - D Tooth: Well that sounds like an exciting day. Any 
4008
4009chance of a debrief are we meeting at any point over next couple of 
4010
4011days or will jdc be it. ?
401230/11/2015, 21:53 - C Bell: Johann, bloody well done today
401330/11/2015, 21:55 - D Tooth: And yes well done Johann
401430/11/2015, 21:57 - C Bell: Jeremy Hunt is one of the most unpleasant 
4015
4016people in the world. He's a crazed ambition rabbit, it's despicable. 
4017
4018And we're allegedly going to the same dinner on Wednesday. Going to be 
4019
4020much fun.
402130/11/2015, 22:12 - L Boyle: He is most certainly one of the most 
4022
4023unpleasant people in the world - I wanted to throw something through my 
4024
4025TV when he was on the news.
402630/11/2015, 22:33 - J Malawana: He is looking like an idiot on Twitter
402730/11/2015, 22:35 - C Bell: I was at a corporation of London dinner 
4028
4029tonight - these people are not labourites, they're solid blue and 
4030
4031fairly pro govt - and they were rapturous that the BMA had told the 
4032
4033government where to stick it and won 'a bloody great victory'. I think 
4034
4035we are doing well with public support, not least because this is a 
4036
4037suspension
403830/11/2015, 22:41 - A Collins: Well done all today, but most of all 
4039
4040bloody well to the incredible JoHulk. Sounds like you've had to 
4041
4042negotiate with your own side as much as the opposition, and we've come 
4043
4044out of it bloody well.
404530/11/2015, 22:41 - A Collins: The game is very much afoot.
404630/11/2015, 23:32 - C Castles: Can I ask why the secretariat were 
4047
4048kicked out of the room today? Didn't get a chance to ask earlier
404930/11/2015, 23:50 - A Collins: Yes I'm intrigued
405001/12/2015, 00:38 - J Malawana: I wanted JDC to make a decision that 
4051
4052was not going to impeded by the BMA. I also wanted you all to have the 
4053
4054space to say what you wanted without fear of it being reported 
4055
4056elsewhere.
405701/12/2015, 00:39 - J Malawana: It's a decision that I may get some 
4058
4059flak for but ultimately I need opinions and decisions of exec members 
4060
4061to be the ones haven't been influenced or second guessed.
406201/12/2015, 00:40 - A Collins: Thanks :) I think we wondered if there 
4063
4064was some specific thing but that is completely sound reasoning
406501/12/2015, 20:47 - C Castles: Did any more comms go out today? Not 
4066
4067sure if I just dont get them in NI
406801/12/2015, 20:48 - A Collins: I've not seen any. JH still spouting his 
4069
4070vile nonsense of course.
407101/12/2015, 20:49 - C Castles: He really is pushing things a bit too 
4072
4073much
407401/12/2015, 20:49 - M Redman: Johann put a great msg on contract forum 
4075
4076which answered a lot of Qs I've been asked but obv doesn't reach all 
4077
4078members
407901/12/2015, 22:22 - B Roberts: Disappointed that I only had 5 messages 
4080
4081to catch up with today. Over a hundredfold reduction from yesterday! 
4082
4083#workwifiwilderness
408401/12/2015, 22:49 - L Boyle: I'm not! That was listserver on steroids
408501/12/2015, 22:50 - C Bell: Had dinner with someone who'd worked with 
4086
4087hunt on world hunger before. This is the way he works apparently. We 
4088
4089did good to stop him glorying in his parliamentary statement
409001/12/2015, 22:52 - C Castles: You're going to start it up again Bethan
409101/12/2015, 22:55 - J Malawana: Ok genuine question for exec. Is there 
4092
4093a contract that the membership would ever agree to that made Saturday 
4094
4095plain time? Everyone but Yannis as I know that answer already.
409601/12/2015, 22:56 - J Malawana: I want to hear what you think would 
4097
4098ever be an acceptable give for plain time.
409901/12/2015, 22:56 - C Castles: Potentially. There are a lot of  
4100
4101variables though
410201/12/2015, 22:56 - J Malawana: Anything.
410301/12/2015, 22:56 - M Redman: Doubt it. If the rest of it was glowing, 
4104
4105maybe people would compromise, but it would be extraordinarily hard to 
4106
4107sell as we've always argued so heavily that Saturday isn't the new 
4108
4109Tuesday
411001/12/2015, 22:57 - C Bell: I doubt it, to be honest. Because the SoS 
4111
4112saying yes to Saturday and not Sunday makes the 7 day argument 
4113
4114obsolete. It just looks punitive.
411501/12/2015, 22:57 - J Malawana: I want to hear everyone's opinion.
411601/12/2015, 22:58 - C Castles: I think 9am to noon plain time on 
4117
4118Saturday would be worth retaining automatic pay pregression :-)
411901/12/2015, 22:58 - J Malawana: If there is genuinely no contract that 
4120
4121gets Even Saturday morning as plane time. Then I think we need to make 
4122
4123a plan.
412401/12/2015, 22:59 - J Malawana: I would think then we need to negotiate 
4125
4126every other aspect of the contract. Get it all locked down to establish 
4127
4128a high water mark. And then have a think about how you get rest agreed.
412901/12/2015, 22:59 - C Bell: I agree, but just to sit back from it a 
4130
4131moment, is Saturday actually plain time in anybody's mind, in reality?
413201/12/2015, 23:00 - J Malawana: It might be that we then have to use as 
4133
4134IA as a genuine tool once again.
413501/12/2015, 23:00 - C Castles: Has something happened?
413601/12/2015, 23:00 - J Malawana: But we would do this in a series of 
4137
4138negotiations that are interspersed with IA.
413901/12/2015, 23:00 - C Bell: Sorry to have multiple interjections, but 
4140
4141Saturday just isn't plain time. It's just not fair.
414201/12/2015, 23:00 - A Yassaee: Bluntly, no.
414301/12/2015, 23:01 - J Malawana: No. I have just been seriously thinking 
4144
4145out every political scenario.
414601/12/2015, 23:01 - C Castles: See what you've started bethan!!??
414701/12/2015, 23:01 - J Malawana: If you play out each course of action. 
4148
4149Then fundamentally it comes down to the issue over plane time.
415001/12/2015, 23:01 - C Castles: Fair enough, glad to hear we're thinking 
4151
4152scenarios through
415301/12/2015, 23:01 - M Redman: So the problems with it are-
4154Change to working patterns
4155Not fairly remunerated
4156
4157f there could be some way of ensuring people NOT working more Saturdays 
4158
4159and that they didn't receive overall pay cut, then maybe it could be 
4160
4161agreed somehow. But then essentially it wouldn't BE plain time
4162And they may just find some loop hole in future.
416301/12/2015, 23:01 - B Roberts: Shit, what have I done?! And what a 
4164
4165ridiculous time of day (night) for me to kick things off!
416601/12/2015, 23:02 - J Malawana: Even pay progression I can just about 
4167
4168work out a way through.
416901/12/2015, 23:02 - T Crocker-Buque: What if plain time during the week 
4170
4171was reduced to 5pm to compensate for Saturday working 9am to 5pm at 
4172
4173plain time?
417401/12/2015, 23:02 - J Malawana: But no combination or scenario in my 
4175
4176mind gives us a contract juniors would buy that gives you Saturday as 
4177
4178plane time.
417901/12/2015, 23:02 - C Bell: I agree Johann
418001/12/2015, 23:03 - C Bell: The idea of entering a workforce like that 
4181
4182is horrendous
418301/12/2015, 23:03 - C Castles: Very interested to hear how we can work 
4184
4185around pay progression...
418601/12/2015, 23:03 - B Roberts: Saturday as plain time - absolutely no 
4187
4188way. They made some comparisons to airline pilots and their unsocial 
4189
4190hours in DDRB but those guys work a maximum of 28 hours a week. Reduce 
4191
4192our hours to that level THEN I can entertain Saturday ALL day as plain 
4193
4194time!
419501/12/2015, 23:04 - J Malawana: But that means I need a clear strategy. 
4196
4197And one that is not that principled :-)
419801/12/2015, 23:04 - J Malawana: So that means being a proper trade 
4199
4200union.
420101/12/2015, 23:04 - C Castles: :-)
420201/12/2015, 23:04 - C Bell: Pilots are not public sector. That 
4203
4204comparison was absolute bullshit.
420501/12/2015, 23:04 - M Redman: Other probs... Disadvantages acute 
4206
4207specialties, recruitment and retention problems.
420801/12/2015, 23:04 - C Bell: GOD I HATE HIM
420901/12/2015, 23:04 - B Roberts: And DDRB made their recommendations 
4210
4211around the 7DS...
421201/12/2015, 23:04 - C Castles: Principled didn't get us that far last 
4213
4214time with NHSE...
421501/12/2015, 23:04 - J Malawana: Ok don't need arguments why Saturday 
4216
4217isn't plain time.
421801/12/2015, 23:05 - J Malawana: I just need to converse.
421901/12/2015, 23:05 - C Castles: Haha, calm down Charlie
422001/12/2015, 23:05 - C Bell: ;)
422101/12/2015, 23:05 - J Malawana: So if we assume it's a non sellable 
4222
4223proposition.
422401/12/2015, 23:05 - B Roberts: Exactly, Charlie, it's one of many 
4225
4226reasons why the DDRB report was so flawed.
422701/12/2015, 23:05 - J Malawana: The question is how you do negs.
422801/12/2015, 23:05 - B Roberts: I'm sorry for starting this but I was a 
4229
4230bit bored...
423101/12/2015, 23:05 - C Bell: With him
423201/12/2015, 23:06 - T Crocker-Buque: What if Saturday was plain time, 
4233
4234but if you were rota'd to work, you got an additional paid day off the 
4235
4236next week?
423701/12/2015, 23:06 - M Redman: Sorrryyyy  I was just answering it 
4238
4239systematically like my interviews ??
4240
4241Okay erm I say no, having written two of the bma blogs on plain time 
4242
4243and remaining consistent!
424401/12/2015, 23:06 - T Crocker-Buque: Zero hours day*
424501/12/2015, 23:07 - B Roberts: Having worked a job where I worked 11/16 
4246
4247weekends, having a random Tuesday off to make up for it when there's 
4248
4249no-one else to play with just isn't the same.
425001/12/2015, 23:07 - J Malawana: So therefore i need every other aspect 
4251
4252locked down. Now in that scenario you have two options. You establish 
4253
4254your high watermark. And simply then hold your ground and force them to 
4255
4256simply impose everything else. Or you basically give a neutral stance 
4257
4258and put it to the membership to reject.
425901/12/2015, 23:07 - J Malawana: So tims plan was the high water mark I 
4260
4261tried to establish in acas.
426201/12/2015, 23:08 - C Castles: Do you ever sleep Johann?
426301/12/2015, 23:08 - B Roberts: We'd be crucified if we caved in on 
4264
4265plain time.
426601/12/2015, 23:08 - J Malawana: Set a scenario where you control 
4267
4268Saturday's with non financial mechanisms
426901/12/2015, 23:08 - J Malawana: No Conan. I have time to sleep when I 
4270
4271finish this job
427201/12/2015, 23:09 - J Malawana: I will first strangle kitty. Then I 
4273
4274will sleep.
427501/12/2015, 23:09 - C Castles: Fair play
427601/12/2015, 23:09 - B Roberts: JH's mandate for 7DS was far weaker than 
4277
4278ours for IA. We shouldn't be penalised for his wacko ideas.
427901/12/2015, 23:09 - T Crocker-Buque: Bethan - whatever we agree in 
4280
4281negotiations the membership is going to crucify us for because it is 
4282
4283inevitably going to be a compromise. We have to leverage the best deal 
4284
4285we can get.
428601/12/2015, 23:09 - C Castles: What did kitty do?
428701/12/2015, 23:09 - B Roberts: Tim, agreed, but the feeling is so 
4288
4289strong on plain time that I feel we can't budge on it at all.
429001/12/2015, 23:10 - J Malawana: Let's not get started on the numerous 
4291
4292reasons I will be strangling kitty.
429301/12/2015, 23:10 - J Malawana: Focus on the task.
429401/12/2015, 23:10 - C Castles: Haha
429501/12/2015, 23:10 - B Roberts: What didn't Kitty do?!
429601/12/2015, 23:10 - J Malawana: Ok so can plain time be controlled with 
4297
4298other safeguards?
429901/12/2015, 23:10 - J Malawana: Maximum number of Saturday's worked 
4300
4301etc?
430201/12/2015, 23:10 - A Collins: I don't think we can sell Saturday plain 
4303
4304time.
430501/12/2015, 23:11 - A Collins: It sets a precedent which will 
4306
4307eventually be eroded.
430801/12/2015, 23:11 - J Malawana: Or if you equalise the prevailing out 
4309
4310of hours rate to 1.33 across all plain time and just gave up evenings? 
4311
4312But retained Saturday's?
431301/12/2015, 23:11 - B Roberts: Adam, you beat me to it. First us, next 
4314
4315AfC and the erosion of the NHS...
431601/12/2015, 23:11 - C Bell: Genuinely this to me and many new potential 
4317
4318juniors is an absolute
431901/12/2015, 23:11 - M Redman: I agree with Collins.#RedLine
432001/12/2015, 23:11 - T Crocker-Buque: We all know we can't sell 
4321
4322Saturday's as plain time, but let's engage with Johanns idea to explore 
4323
4324the issue
432501/12/2015, 23:12 - J Malawana: Listen I am not trying to sell it. I 
4326
4327need to know how to fight it.
432801/12/2015, 23:12 - A Collins: I think evenings is better than 
4329
4330Saturdays, but still poor. I mean this is just a massive cultural 
4331
4332issue. People know fairly fundamentally what plain time is
433301/12/2015, 23:12 - J Malawana: So play the game.
433401/12/2015, 23:12 - A Collins: Ok ok
433501/12/2015, 23:13 - J Malawana: So equalising the prevailing rate?
433601/12/2015, 23:13 - J Malawana: More time is premium but premium is 
4337
4338lower
433901/12/2015, 23:13 - A Collins: I think that would sell better
434001/12/2015, 23:13 - J Malawana: So premium rate is 1.25 and you retain 
4341
4342all the current plain time
434301/12/2015, 23:14 - C Bell: Isnt that what he's already suggested?
434401/12/2015, 23:14 - T Crocker-Buque: No financial mechanism - days off 
4345
4346in lieu, max frequency and total number of Saturday's worked, reduction 
4347
4348of commensurate plain time during the week...
434901/12/2015, 23:14 - J Malawana: 1.5 for nights and 1.33 for Saturday's.
435001/12/2015, 23:14 - J Malawana: Can juniors buy non financial 
4351
4352mechanisms?
435301/12/2015, 23:15 - C Castles: To be honest, I think we will never 
4354
4355understand the full implications of the various multipliers in a 
4356
4357conversation like this, hperu had to work it all through for us before
435801/12/2015, 23:16 - J Malawana: I just need the principles.
435901/12/2015, 23:16 - T Crocker-Buque: Wouldn't a 1.25 and retention of 
4360
4361Saturday's as premium be less pay over all? If Saturday is plain 
4362
4363wouldn't we want highest possible plain time rates due to reduction in 
4364
4365premium time opportunity?
436601/12/2015, 23:16 - J Malawana: I need what politically looks 
4367
4368acceptable.
436901/12/2015, 23:16 - J Malawana: I can then run the numbers.
437001/12/2015, 23:16 - J Malawana: It's not the exact figure I need Tim. 
4371
4372Just the optics of the deal.
437301/12/2015, 23:17 - J Malawana: Optics is a new word that everyone 
4374
4375seems to be using.
437601/12/2015, 23:17 - B Roberts: Depends on job. 11/16 weekends in A&E is 
4377
4378just about doable for 6 months but couldn't and wouldn't want to do 
4379
4380that for (e.g.) a medical specialty unless I got paid a lot more for my 
4381
4382Saturdays.
438301/12/2015, 23:17 - C Bell: This sounds like hunts deal
438401/12/2015, 23:18 - C Bell: Of the 11% rise
438501/12/2015, 23:18 - A Yassaee: I think losing evenings would be better 
4386
4387than working weekends as Collins suggest.
438801/12/2015, 23:18 - A Yassaee: I honestly think losing automatic pay 
4389
4390would be better than losing weekends.
439101/12/2015, 23:18 - J Malawana: So when you think about the concept of 
4392
4393plain time, can you see just the issue over Saturday's or is 
4394
4395alternative controls somethings juniors in general would understand the 
4396
4397benefit off?
439801/12/2015, 23:18 - E McCourt: What about turning this around - is 
4399
4400everything sacrificable for plain time? Can't have anything else but 
4401
4402can have premium Saturdays?
440301/12/2015, 23:19 - J Malawana: Exactly Ellen.
440401/12/2015, 23:19 - J Malawana: That's a good way of looking at it.
440501/12/2015, 23:19 - J Malawana: Is plain time the absolute issue.
440601/12/2015, 23:19 - A Collins: I think it's too tangible, I think we 
4407
4408would give up a lot, but I'm not sure it's a complete break point.
440901/12/2015, 23:19 - B Roberts: Has he considered the implications of 
4410
4411this on people's general wellbeing? If Saturdays are not premium, you 
4412
4413could just have people calling in sick all the time
441401/12/2015, 23:19 - T Crocker-Buque: Would that include pay for all 
4415
4416time worked Ellen?
441701/12/2015, 23:19 - C Bell: I can see that point, but then don't we 
4418
4419come back to that discussion at JDC - what are we asking for here?
442001/12/2015, 23:19 - J Malawana: Bethan focus on the task :-)
442101/12/2015, 23:20 - B Roberts: Sorry, ex-psychiatrist...
442201/12/2015, 23:20 - J Malawana: Lol
442301/12/2015, 23:20 - J Malawana: I need people to think like a think 
4424
4425tank
442601/12/2015, 23:21 - J Malawana: I need all the scenarios thought 
4427
4428through. Then we can actually formulate a strategy.
442901/12/2015, 23:21 - E McCourt: No financial safeguards no.
443001/12/2015, 23:21 - B Roberts: Shall I end this now seeing as I started 
4431
4432it? We'll sleep on it and submit more ideas tomorrow!
443301/12/2015, 23:21 - E McCourt: If that's what you meant?
443401/12/2015, 23:21 - C Bell: Losing Saturdays makes medicine an 
4435
4436objectively shit career in PR terms. Juniors aren't paid huge amounts. 
4437
4438I fear it'll be hard to sell.
443901/12/2015, 23:21 - T Crocker-Buque: Charlie - we all know that. Please 
4440
4441engage with the exercise.
444201/12/2015, 23:22 - T Crocker-Buque: Ellen - I meant if we kept 
4443
4444Saturday's as premium but lost the safeguards for revie to get pay for 
4445
4446all hours worked would that be preferable? Or is pay for all hours 
4447
4448worked more important?
444901/12/2015, 23:23 - A Collins: So, spreading the premium rate out 
4450
4451across more hours. That seems fairer reward.
445201/12/2015, 23:23 - C Bell: Sorry, what exactly is there to engage 
4453
4454with? Johann asked whether we could make Saturdays plain time. I cannot 
4455
4456see any scenario we could, no. Sorry if that isn't helpful, but it's 
4457
4458true.
445901/12/2015, 23:23 - J Malawana: Tim and I play this game too often so 
4460
4461perhaps it's not something to spring on unsuspecting exec members.
446201/12/2015, 23:23 - J Malawana: The point of the task is not to think 
4463
4464as yourself. It's the think as anyone but you.
446501/12/2015, 23:24 - T Crocker-Buque: I think the exercise has escaped 
4466
4467you Charlie.
446801/12/2015, 23:24 - A Collins: Can we stop talking about talking and 
4469
4470just pick one question and then have a number of minutes of discussion 
4471
4472on it, rather than reverting to "what if this was the thing that broke 
4473
4474the whole deal" which is probably not helpful right now?
447501/12/2015, 23:24 - J Malawana: So ideally someone that holds 
4476
4477fundamentally opposite views to yourself
447801/12/2015, 23:24 - J Malawana: Plain time.
447901/12/2015, 23:24 - B Roberts: I would prefer losing pay for all work 
4480
4481done seeing as that's what we've all been used to under New Deal but I 
4482
4483would want an overhaul of monitoring and a way for juniors in 
4484
4485understaffed teams to have a robust means of reporting their extra 
4486
4487hours.
448801/12/2015, 23:24 - J Malawana: I need to know whether any scenario 
4489
4490makes it acceptable to be changed.
449101/12/2015, 23:25 - J Malawana: If so what scenario.
449201/12/2015, 23:25 - C Bell: Apologies for clearly not rising to your 
4493
4494intellectual challenge. Over and out.
449501/12/2015, 23:25 - J Malawana: Actually no.
449601/12/2015, 23:25 - J Malawana: I need to know if any scenario is 
4497
4498acceptable for a change in plain time.
449901/12/2015, 23:26 - J Malawana: If there is an acceptable scenario. 
4500
4501What is it?
450201/12/2015, 23:26 - T Crocker-Buque: What if there was more money in 
4503
4504the envelope to raise basic if Saturday's are plain time?
450501/12/2015, 23:26 - B Roberts: But not just understaffed teams - it's 
4506
4507just that trying to do the work of three SHOs when only one has been 
4508
4509employed is bound to stretch hours.
451001/12/2015, 23:26 - C Bell: And just a hint, patronising MSC members 
4511
4512here, or in writing, or however is not how to engage us.
451301/12/2015, 23:27 - J Malawana: Charlie I am not trying to patronise 
4514
4515you.
451601/12/2015, 23:27 - A Yassaee: I don't think he was talking to you...
451701/12/2015, 23:27 - C Bell: No, I wasn't.
451801/12/2015, 23:27 - J Malawana: This is a genuine way to try and work 
4519
4520through the problem.
452101/12/2015, 23:27 - C Bell: I understand that.
452201/12/2015, 23:27 - J Malawana: Ok. Draw a line. Sorry.
452301/12/2015, 23:28 - A Collins: Ok. BACK TO THE ISSUE. 
4524There are scenarios that are acceptable.
452501/12/2015, 23:28 - J Malawana: I got carried away with trying to think 
4526
4527through the problem.
452801/12/2015, 23:28 - J Malawana: Wanted to play it out with you guys.
452901/12/2015, 23:28 - A Collins: I don't think plain time is the be all 
4530
4531and end all
453201/12/2015, 23:28 - A Collins: But it is very important.
453301/12/2015, 23:28 - A Collins: BUT it is ideological.
453401/12/2015, 23:28 - T Crocker-Buque: I'm not patronising you either... 
4535
4536Just pointing out that I understand your view on plain time, but that's 
4537
4538not the point of the exercise. I apologise if you found that 
4539
4540patronising.
454101/12/2015, 23:28 - A Collins: So it's a hard sell.
454201/12/2015, 23:28 - A Collins: We can redefine it.
454301/12/2015, 23:28 - B Roberts: I'm off to bed. I'm sorry I kicked this 
4544
4545off now... Catch up with you all tomorrow!
454601/12/2015, 23:29 - A Collins: If it benefits us clearly.
454701/12/2015, 23:29 - A Collins: And we have clear ways to mitigate rhe 
4548
4549detriment
455001/12/2015, 23:29 - A Collins: (look at all this shit I learnt from my 
4551
4552surprise day of negotiating)
455301/12/2015, 23:29 - M Redman: I'm off to bed, to dream of fluffy 
4554
4555unicorns. night all ??
455601/12/2015, 23:29 - J Malawana: Ok night.
455701/12/2015, 23:29 - A Collins: Johann: talking about non financial 
4558
4559safeguards.
456001/12/2015, 23:29 - A Collins: I don't think we can have any non 
4561
4562financial hours safe guards.
456301/12/2015, 23:30 - A Collins: BUT
456401/12/2015, 23:30 - A Collins: That doesn't mean that sat has to be non 
4565
4566plan.
456701/12/2015, 23:30 - A Collins: *plain
456801/12/2015, 23:30 - A Collins: It could be plain, but special.
456901/12/2015, 23:30 - J Malawana: Ok how would that look though
457001/12/2015, 23:30 - A Collins: Ultimately, let me declare, I'm prepared 
4571
4572to fuck over the other unions to get our way.
457301/12/2015, 23:30 - A Collins: So: 7-7 Monday to sat now plain.
457401/12/2015, 23:31 - J Malawana: Would the prevailing rate simply be 
4575
4576increased.
457701/12/2015, 23:31 - J Malawana: God Adam.
457801/12/2015, 23:31 - A Collins: But, any Saturdays over 2/month or 
4579
45804/2month or whatever you pick become premium.
458101/12/2015, 23:31 - J Malawana: That's a definite way to illicit a 
4582
4583response :-)
458401/12/2015, 23:31 - A Collins: You don't have to call me God darling, 
4585
4586we've discussed that.
458701/12/2015, 23:32 - J Malawana: But two a month means your agreeing to 
4588
4589do 26 Saturday's a year
459001/12/2015, 23:32 - A Collins: I'm not suggesting the figures.
459101/12/2015, 23:32 - A Collins: I'm just suggesting the concept... Try 
4592
4593and engage with the exercise ;)
459401/12/2015, 23:32 - J Malawana: Lol
459501/12/2015, 23:32 - J Malawana: Ok but how does that play out.
459601/12/2015, 23:33 - J Malawana: If you walk into this and look at that.
459701/12/2015, 23:33 - A Collins: What I'm saying is we change the 
4598
4599financial limits from applying to all Saturdays, to only applying to 
4600
4601those we don't want to work.
460201/12/2015, 23:33 - C Bell: Ha
460301/12/2015, 23:33 - A Collins: If that makes sense
460401/12/2015, 23:33 - J Malawana: Also be agreeing the principle of even 
4605
4606part of the saturday slipping.
460701/12/2015, 23:33 - J Malawana: Do you essentially surrender the 
4608
4609principle to a future erosion
461001/12/2015, 23:34 - A Collins: Rather than financially limiting them by 
4611
4612making every Saturday expensive, we make the ones we don't want to work 
4613
4614super expensive and make the others more palatable for the employer.
461501/12/2015, 23:34 - A Collins: Yeah, I know that in both our future and 
4616
4617other professionals future there is rhe prospect of slippage.
461801/12/2015, 23:34 - A Collins: But to me this is like automatic 
4619
4620progression.
462101/12/2015, 23:35 - J Malawana: Aah ok so you basically ignore 
4622
4623prevailing rates and you include a system of escalating costs
462401/12/2015, 23:35 - A Collins: I assume the reason you've asked this is 
4625
4626you think it will be a big breakpoint for the govt?
462701/12/2015, 23:35 - K Mohan: THERE ARE 169 messages on this thread. 
4628
4629And Johann wants to strange me for some inexplicable reason. 
4630
4631That's what I've taken away from this. What's going on?
463201/12/2015, 23:35 - T Crocker-Buque: So say more than 1 Saturday in 8 
4633
4634(or something) then it's paid at double plain?
463501/12/2015, 23:35 - J Malawana: I wanted to explore the escalating 
4636
4637costs theory on a different issue.
463801/12/2015, 23:35 - A Collins: What I'm trying to do is allow the 
4639
4640government to say they've expanded plain time, whilst we still say 
4641
4642we've limited the number of Saturdays we work.
464301/12/2015, 23:35 - A Collins: Yes Tim cb, exactly
464401/12/2015, 23:35 - J Malawana: But interesting to include it on a 
4645
4646Saturday n
464701/12/2015, 23:36 - A Collins: We make excess Saturdays like excess 
4648
4649hours.
465001/12/2015, 23:36 - K Mohan: I don't think Saturday will be acceptable 
4651
4652as plain time unless th rule literally is so thing like 1 in 8. That 
4653
4654will never happen as for CC they are going for 1 in 4.
465501/12/2015, 23:36 - K Mohan: Vish thinks Cc can get just sat am as 
4656
4657plain time though.
465801/12/2015, 23:36 - J Malawana: So if you work more than 12 Saturday's 
4659
4660a year, you get a higher rate
466101/12/2015, 23:37 - A Collins: I mean all my jobs thus far have been 
4662
46631in4 or 1in3 weekends. Except psych but I don't count that as work ;)
466401/12/2015, 23:37 - J Malawana: Vish is right.
466501/12/2015, 23:37 - T Crocker-Buque: Wow, really?! Also these aren't 
4666
4667proposals, just an exercise in exploring all the possible scenarios for 
4668
4669Saturday's as plain time.
467001/12/2015, 23:37 - A Collins: Yes, for the 13th and other Saturdays 
4671
4672you would get paid double, or triple.
467301/12/2015, 23:37 - K Mohan: I don't think we can agree to that. But if 
4674
4675we lock every thing else down before this we're better off.
467601/12/2015, 23:37 - J Malawana: Tim let that slip. You may want to tell 
4677
4678Vish that it's only Saturday morning they ever think they have a chance 
4679
4680to get through
468101/12/2015, 23:38 - A Collins: Too many tims...
468201/12/2015, 23:38 - K Mohan: Vish knows that. He told me that. I've 
4683
4684told you that before.
468501/12/2015, 23:38 - K Mohan: Sands.
468601/12/2015, 23:38 - J Malawana: Sorry I meant DH Tim.
468701/12/2015, 23:38 - J Malawana: Ok so plain time effectively becomes 
4688
4689our red line.
469001/12/2015, 23:39 - J Malawana: Is it just Saturday?
469101/12/2015, 23:39 - J Malawana: They want basically surgical lists to 
4692
4693be finished at 9pm.
469401/12/2015, 23:39 - K Mohan: I don't think am will be acceptable. It is 
4695
4696the only real red line. It's the thing 99% of juniors told us they were 
4697
4698upset about in August.
469901/12/2015, 23:39 - J Malawana: I think they may go slightly earlier.
470001/12/2015, 23:39 - J Malawana: So evenings then?
470101/12/2015, 23:39 - A Collins: To be clear, if we give up Saturday do 
4702
4703we keep evenings?
470401/12/2015, 23:39 - K Mohan: Have you spoken to rob and Vish? May be 
4705
4706worth a chat.
470701/12/2015, 23:39 - J Malawana: Any scenario?
470801/12/2015, 23:40 - A Collins: Cos Saturday am maybe equals 5? Hours? 
4709
4710Evenings from 7 to 10 is 15 hours...
471101/12/2015, 23:40 - A Collins: And we would find it harder to protect 
4712
4713with escalating cost I think.
471401/12/2015, 23:40 - K Mohan: Yes. We didn't pursue a bunch of different 
4715
4716scenarios. But juniors were clear that any derogation  from currently 
4717
4718was unacceptable.
471901/12/2015, 23:40 - J Malawana: So assuming clinics are morning, 
4720
4721afternoon and evening
472201/12/2015, 23:41 - J Malawana: Where do you put the limit on evenings?
472301/12/2015, 23:41 - A Collins: I think if plain time is a red line then 
4724
4725it's a red line. If we're saying it's an ideological issue, then I 
4726
4727think evenings are as bad as Saturdays
472801/12/2015, 23:41 - J Malawana: And can you.
472901/12/2015, 23:41 - A Collins: I think we can sell Saturdays as they 
4730
4731are discrete, I don't think we can sell evenings.
473201/12/2015, 23:41 - A Collins: I think we can sell sat am, as long as 
4733
4734we are seen to get something back with it like max Saturdays.
473501/12/2015, 23:41 - K Mohan: Between 7 and 10? I don't think your can.
473601/12/2015, 23:42 - K Mohan: Maybe til 2000?
473701/12/2015, 23:42 - T Crocker-Buque: Hmm - will think on it. Off to 
4738
4739bed!
474001/12/2015, 23:44 - K Mohan: I'm still sad Johann wants to strangle me 
4741
4742and no one else seemed upset. Or surprised. :(
474301/12/2015, 23:45 - C Castles: I tried to find out why at least
474401/12/2015, 23:45 - K Mohan: Hmpf.
474501/12/2015, 23:45 - A Collins: So will we go on IA over having to work 
4746
4747a limited number of Saturday mornings for normal wage? Particularly if 
4748
4749our actual pay rises becuase weve accessed 7D funding my eyes?
475001/12/2015, 23:46 - K Mohan: I think until we have a firm steer 
4751
4752otherwise Saturdays are  a red line.
475301/12/2015, 23:46 - E McCourt: I see one patient and gain 100+ 
4754
4755messages...
475601/12/2015, 23:46 - K Mohan: Aren't you going to ask the membership or 
4757
4758something Johann?
475901/12/2015, 23:46 - K Mohan: Johann's fault.
476001/12/2015, 23:47 - K Mohan: Well Bethan's fault really.
476101/12/2015, 23:47 - A Yassaee: I disagree about selling saturdays more 
4762
4763than evenings. I actually think the converse might be more likely.
476401/12/2015, 23:49 - A Collins: Yannis is typing... *hides*
476501/12/2015, 23:52 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Allo! Interesting thread and good 
4766
4767discussion. Johann u r right that my views on this are clear r.e 
4768
4769evenings and saturdays. So i will not expand on that. Have followed 
4770
4771this strand with interest. However...i liked ur challenge of us trying 
4772
4773to think from the perspective of somebody who was the diametric 
4774
4775opposite of me! So...in my new role as a senior representative of the 
4776
4777Dept of Health I would sacrifice EVERYTHING to get an significant 
4778
4779expansion of plain time accepted by the BMA. I would make concessions 
4780
4781both small and large in order to get the BMA to drop its plain time 
4782
4783demand. I want it to make it easier for Trusts to work doctors across 
4784
4785the week without a significant increase in doctor numbers. I would want 
4786
4787to make sure that a redefinition of plain time will achieve everything 
4788
4789over time which my concessions on safeguards and pay for work done have 
4790
4791prevented.
479201/12/2015, 23:53 - K Mohan: Personally I think plain time is a real 
4793
4794sticking point. I think we need to try and lock down everything else 
4795
4796and then get the best deal on plain time we can and put the whole deal 
4797
4798to the membership. I'm going to think about it more overnight though.
479901/12/2015, 23:54 - K Mohan: Agree with Yannis.
480001/12/2015, 23:56 - D Rouse: I would not accept a contract that 
4801
4802expanded evening  plain time
480301/12/2015, 23:56 - D Rouse: I can however
480401/12/2015, 23:56 - D Rouse: Stomach losing Saturday mornings as plain 
4805
4806time
480701/12/2015, 23:57 - D Rouse: I will not stomach time and a quarter as 
4808
4809the plain time rate
481001/12/2015, 23:57 - D Rouse: It's too little
481101/12/2015, 23:59 - A Collins: I like Yannis's approach.
481202/12/2015, 00:00 - D Rouse: Emergency medicine and itu and acute need 
4813
4814will be screwed by 1.25x
481502/12/2015, 00:00 - D Rouse: Med*
481602/12/2015, 00:00 - D Rouse: Also neonate a
481702/12/2015, 00:01 - K Mohan: We worked out they needed a multiplier of 
4818
4819about 2 or higher in previous negs I think. Andrew will remember.
482002/12/2015, 00:02 - D Rouse: I wouldn't be able to support a contract 
4821
4822that gave 1.25x or 1.5x and lost Saturday mornings
482302/12/2015, 00:02 - D Rouse: Though for 2x and lose Saturday morning 
4824
4825then we could talk
482602/12/2015, 00:03 - A Collins: I think we need to extract a lot out of 
4827
4828them for this. Remember this is one of their manifesto goals and feeds 
4829
4830into this 7 day NHS bollocks they love so much.
483102/12/2015, 00:03 - C Castles: No saturdays will be acceptable to GP 
4832
4833trainees by the way
483402/12/2015, 00:03 - K Mohan: I'd argue that the impact of sat am needs 
4835
4836to be modelled for non res working patterns as well as full shift 
4837
4838before we decide what is acceptable or not.
483902/12/2015, 00:04 - K Mohan: If most non res people are doing a lot of 
4840
4841"work" on sat am (such as a ward round etc) and less at other times 
4842
4843their pay will really suffer.
484402/12/2015, 00:05 - D Rouse: Can I ask why Saturday's are not 
4845
4846acceptable to GP trainees?
484702/12/2015, 00:05 - D Rouse: Just as I don't know
484802/12/2015, 00:06 - C Castles: In primary care placements, gp trainees 
4849
4850dont have to work any saturdays currently
485102/12/2015, 00:07 - A Collier Flattening the pay rate to 1.33 across 
4852
4853all OOH periods still means that specialties with lots of OOH lose out 
4854
4855compared to the current system.
485602/12/2015, 00:07 - D Rouse: Have to ask
485702/12/2015, 00:08 - D Rouse: But why would it be bad for GP trainees to 
4858
4859work Saturdays
486002/12/2015, 00:08 - A Collier Plain rates on Saturday are a token 
4861
4862gesture that JH wants simply to give him the ability to deliver on the 
4863
4864manifesto pledge
486502/12/2015, 00:08 - D Rouse: As they are getting a pay premium for it
486602/12/2015, 00:08 - D Rouse: So essentially get 40% banding equivalent
486702/12/2015, 00:09 - C Castles: Why wouldn't a hospital trainee want to 
4868
4869work every Saturday then?
487002/12/2015, 00:09 - D Rouse: Not saying every Saturday
487102/12/2015, 00:09 - D Rouse: I currently work a lot of Saturday's
487202/12/2015, 00:09 - A Collier All the testing we've done suggest Plain 
4873
4874Rate Saturday's aren't acceptable to any group
487502/12/2015, 00:09 - C Castles: But if it pays more...
487602/12/2015, 00:09 - D Rouse: I am saying I am willing to sacrifice 
4877
4878those Saturday mornings
487902/12/2015, 00:10 - C Castles: It would be a worsened situation from 
4880
4881current
488202/12/2015, 00:10 - A Collier Yes I'm sure you do work lots of 
4883
4884Saturday's and which specialty are you in?
488502/12/2015, 00:10 - A Collier A&E
488602/12/2015, 00:10 - D Rouse: Emergency medicine
488702/12/2015, 00:10 - A Collier Worst recruitment rates of all
488802/12/2015, 00:10 - C Castles: They would be working more out of hours 
4889
4890than currently for the same money
489102/12/2015, 00:10 - A Collins: I think what David is getting at may be 
4892
4893rhe idea that GP trainees get free money just for being GP trainees, 
4894
4895without doing the extra hours. 
4896And if he's not then I'm getting at that. 
4897
4898There is probably a very well justified defence, I just don't have it 
4899
4900to my mind
490102/12/2015, 00:11 - A Collier And it's those antisocial hours that mean 
4902
4903most trainees avoid A&E like the plague
490402/12/2015, 00:11 - D Rouse: Emergency medicine
490502/12/2015, 00:11 - D Rouse: *
490602/12/2015, 00:11 - K Mohan: Guys this isn't about one speciality or 
4907
4908another. It is about the principle of this.
490902/12/2015, 00:12 - K Mohan: Let's not turn it into one speciality vs 
4910
4911another please.
491202/12/2015, 00:12 - A Collier I think those who spoke about 
4913
4914acceptability from GP perspective were just speaking from personal 
4915
4916experience.
491702/12/2015, 00:12 - K Mohan: We've avoided doing that for three years.
491802/12/2015, 00:12 - D Rouse: I am not saying that we should I am asking 
4919
4920that if emergency medicine acute medicine intensive care medicine etc 
4921
4922will have to sacrifice in this contract neg
492302/12/2015, 00:13 - A Collins: Ok, so would GP trainees take losing 
4924
4925their 40 percent t supplement to not work Saturdays?
492602/12/2015, 00:13 - E McCourt: Conan's answer David.
492702/12/2015, 00:13 - A Collier I struggle with the concept of GP RRP but 
4928
4929that's a different issue.
493002/12/2015, 00:13 - C Castles: It was recommended by the DDRB after all 
4931
4932:-)
493302/12/2015, 00:14 - E McCourt: Shall I open the work intensity can of 
4934
4935worms?
493602/12/2015, 00:14 - C Castles: As in, it originally existed as a 
4937
4938recommendation from the ddrb
493902/12/2015, 00:14 - A Collins: I think we have been trying to talk 
4940
4941about minimum acceptable limits here, and see if we can find a way to 
4942
4943"allow"  the government a media win on plain time, without us actually 
4944
4945losing out as a whole.
494602/12/2015, 00:14 - D Rouse: Yes it exsisted
494702/12/2015, 00:14 - D Rouse: But why shouldn't they work for it?
494802/12/2015, 00:14 - K Mohan: I agree Andrew.
494902/12/2015, 00:14 - A Collier I actually think that GP RRP could be cut 
4950
4951without significantly denting recruitment
495202/12/2015, 00:14 - A Collier It's currently too high (higher than 
4953
4954average banding)
495502/12/2015, 00:15 - K Mohan: Our resting as we say shows that the 
4956
4957concept of extending plain time is a no.
495802/12/2015, 00:15 - K Mohan: Testing
495902/12/2015, 00:15 - D Rouse: Work antisocially I should phrase
496002/12/2015, 00:15 - A Collier But the appeal of GP for many is the work 
4961
4962life balance
496302/12/2015, 00:15 - A Collier Mess of GPs current work patterns and 
4964
4965their recruitment will go off a cliff
496602/12/2015, 00:16 - A Collier *sorry should have said: Mess up GP's 
4967
4968current...
496902/12/2015, 00:16 - D Rouse: What will frustrate many with this 
4970
4971contract is those working in the most acute and intense specialities 
4972
4973will be those whom lose out most
497402/12/2015, 00:16 - A Collier Not if we get the multiplier correct
497502/12/2015, 00:16 - D Rouse: But
497602/12/2015, 00:16 - A Collins: So could we let the GPs off Saturday 
4977
4978working and let them off the pay increase too?
497902/12/2015, 00:16 - D Rouse: What will we have to sacrafice
498002/12/2015, 00:17 - D Rouse: To get that multiplier.  I suspect 
4981
4982Saturday mornings
498302/12/2015, 00:17 - A Collier The OOHs rates have always been too low 
4984
4985in the models from DDRB and employers
498602/12/2015, 00:17 - A Collins: What would GP trainees be prepared to 
4987
4988lose, in order to keep their Saturdays and free money?
498902/12/2015, 00:17 - C Castles: The work life balance For GPs currently 
4990
4991is crap, that's why they're all retiring early, that's why the training 
4992
4993posts aren't filled despite a retention premium
499402/12/2015, 00:17 - A Collins: Isn't that the work life balance for GPs 
4995
4996rather than GP trainees doing that though Conan?
499702/12/2015, 00:18 - A Collier Where has the Saturday morning concept 
4998
4999come from?
500002/12/2015, 00:18 - A Collins: Most of the GP trainees in community 
5001
5002placements are fairly happy I have to say.
500302/12/2015, 00:18 - K Mohan: The issue with the multiplier is that you 
5004
5005reall need to cross-tabulate intensity and frequency which is what they 
5006
5007are doing for CC. The prob for us is that is (part of) what banding 
5008
5009does so we need to recreate banding without calling it banding.
501002/12/2015, 00:18 - A Collins: Its come from Johann asking us to 
5011
5012discuss it.
501302/12/2015, 00:18 - A Collier I can't realistically see a premium 
5014
5015Saturday afternoon rate
501602/12/2015, 00:19 - A Collins: Which I suspect has come from a feeling 
5017
5018we could extract a lot from the government in return for allowing it.
501902/12/2015, 00:19 - A Collier Giving on weekday evenings is preferable 
5020
5021to giving on weekends
502202/12/2015, 00:19 - D Rouse: Expansion of plain time any further into 
5023
5024the evenings in my eyes is a no go
502502/12/2015, 00:19 - K Mohan: I think we could get it. I think that's 
5026
5027the bottom line for the Govt across the NHS. Vish told me something 
5028
5029similar a few weeks ago.
503002/12/2015, 00:19 - D Rouse: No Andrew not when most of your shifts are 
5031
5032twilight a
503302/12/2015, 00:20 - A Collier People prize Saturday mornings over 
5034
5035weekday evenings
503602/12/2015, 00:20 - K Mohan: (Get premium sat pm I mean
503702/12/2015, 00:20 - K Mohan: Agree
503802/12/2015, 00:20 - A Collins: So what we've discovered is we have a 
5039
5040difference of opinion.
504102/12/2015, 00:20 - D Rouse: Finishing at 0200 or 2300 which many of 
5042
5043the acute specialities do
504402/12/2015, 00:20 - A Collins: Buttttt
504502/12/2015, 00:20 - A Collins: I think it may come from different 
5046
5047viewpoints.
504802/12/2015, 00:20 - C Castles: I dont think we know what everyone else 
5049
5050wants, and many people will want different things
505102/12/2015, 00:20 - A Collier So you already work into the premium 
5052
5053period
505402/12/2015, 00:21 - A Collier So expanding it would make no difference
505502/12/2015, 00:21 - A Collins: David and I have somewhat accepted our 
5056
5057shift work based lives.
505802/12/2015, 00:21 - D Rouse: Just because Saturday mornings are not 
5059
5060premium time doesn't mean we will work more of them
506102/12/2015, 00:21 - C Castles: Some will prioritise evenings, some 
5062
5063saturdays
506402/12/2015, 00:21 - A Collins: And would like to be paid for doing them
506502/12/2015, 00:21 - D Rouse: Yes it would
506602/12/2015, 00:21 - A Collins: Others here are talking about 
5067
5068ideologically protecting certain times.
506902/12/2015, 00:21 - A Collier So you work 6pm-2am?
507002/12/2015, 00:21 - A Collier Lots of them?
507102/12/2015, 00:21 - D Rouse: At the moment I get paid premium from 7pm 
5072
5073- 2300
5074
5075If they expanded it
507602/12/2015, 00:21 - A Collins: Yeah probably on an a&e rota...
507702/12/2015, 00:22 - D Rouse: I'd be paid 2200-2300 premium
507802/12/2015, 00:22 - D Rouse: Yes
507902/12/2015, 00:22 - D Rouse: Tons
508002/12/2015, 00:22 - A Collins: You'd have to make 15 hrs if Saturday 
5081
5082plain time before you paid back the evenings you're taking away from 
5083
5084acute specialties doctors.
508502/12/2015, 00:22 - D Rouse: I works week of 0800-1800 once every 12 
5086
5087weeks
508802/12/2015, 00:22 - A Collins: In terms of pay.
508902/12/2015, 00:22 - A Collier Right now you will effectively get a 
5090
5091between a 1.3-1.6 uplift for those hours
509202/12/2015, 00:23 - D Rouse: All the others end either 2100 2300 or 
5093
50940200
509502/12/2015, 00:23 - K Mohan: Can I ask a non-facetious question? How 
5096
5097many EM trainees are there?
509802/12/2015, 00:23 - D Rouse: Or a more nights
509902/12/2015, 00:23 - D Rouse: I can't tell u off top of my head
510002/12/2015, 00:23 - K Mohan: Roughly.
510102/12/2015, 00:23 - D Rouse: i dunno kitty
510202/12/2015, 00:23 - D Rouse: Being serious
510302/12/2015, 00:23 - A Collier David do you want to work less of those 
5104
5105shifts or get paid more for them?
510602/12/2015, 00:24 - D Rouse: I won't work less of them Andrew
510702/12/2015, 00:24 - A Collins: I want to get paid more for them. Cos we 
5108
5109*can't* work any less.
511002/12/2015, 00:24 - D Rouse: As there are not enough of us
511102/12/2015, 00:24 - D Rouse: To decrease them
511202/12/2015, 00:24 - A Collier I asked what you wanted...
511302/12/2015, 00:24 - A Collier What's a perfect goal?
511402/12/2015, 00:24 - D Rouse: Given the situation we are in
511502/12/2015, 00:24 - D Rouse: Paid more for the rest of my training
511602/12/2015, 00:25 - D Rouse: As the intensity really can't get much 
5117
5118worse
511902/12/2015, 00:25 - E McCourt: I'm going to focus on the sick people 
5120
5121now. Until tomorrow team.
512202/12/2015, 00:25 - C Castles: I think there are a bit over 1000 em 
5123
5124trainees
512502/12/2015, 00:25 - A Collier So if you got paid more and just worked 
5126
5127twilights you'd be happy?
512802/12/2015, 00:26 - K Mohan: Yeah there are about 1125 roughly.
512902/12/2015, 00:26 - C Castles: According to bma careers (900 was 81% of 
5130
5131them) in Dec 14
513202/12/2015, 00:26 - D Rouse: Wouldn't just work twilights Andrew as are 
5133
5134we closing during the day
513502/12/2015, 00:26 - A Collins: We're also talking about anaesthetics, 
5136
5137acute and gen med, acute surgical specs etc.
513802/12/2015, 00:26 - A Collins: Just to be clear.
513902/12/2015, 00:26 - D Rouse: Anaesthesia
514002/12/2015, 00:26 - D Rouse: Have nice Rotas
514102/12/2015, 00:27 - D Rouse: They are the biggest speciality
514202/12/2015, 00:27 - A Collier I'm trying to establish a guiding 
5143
5144principle from your A&E perspective
514502/12/2015, 00:27 - A Collins: Before we get too utilitarian over the 
5146
5147small number of e  docs.
514802/12/2015, 00:27 - K Mohan: I disagree we are talking about all those 
5149
5150soecialities.
515102/12/2015, 00:27 - D Rouse: They work 1:8 sometimes 1:10
515202/12/2015, 00:27 - A Collins: Really?
515302/12/2015, 00:27 - D Rouse: Yes
515402/12/2015, 00:27 - D Rouse: Intensive care medicine
515502/12/2015, 00:27 - D Rouse: Is its own speciality now
515602/12/2015, 00:27 - A Collins: Ok legit. ICM is probably what I mean 
5157
5158isn't it.
515902/12/2015, 00:27 - D Rouse: You need to exclude that
516002/12/2015, 00:27 - K Mohan: I think we need to stick with EM to work 
5161
5162through that.
516302/12/2015, 00:28 - D Rouse: And is equally as under resourced
516402/12/2015, 00:28 - D Rouse: As EM
516502/12/2015, 00:28 - A Collier Bottom line is that the OOH multiplers 
5166
5167have been too low throughout the process
516802/12/2015, 00:28 - D Rouse: I agree
516902/12/2015, 00:28 - K Mohan: Yes I said that about 200 messages ago. :)
517002/12/2015, 00:28 - A Collier That's what hits A&E combined with an 
5171
5172expansion of plain time
517302/12/2015, 00:28 - D Rouse: Agreed
517402/12/2015, 00:29 - D Rouse: There is little you can do about number of 
5175
5176shifts
517702/12/2015, 00:29 - D Rouse: Into twilights and nights
517802/12/2015, 00:29 - A Collier The A&E rrp is then insufficient to 
5179
5180compensate for the loss
518102/12/2015, 00:29 - D Rouse: Agreed.
518202/12/2015, 00:29 - K Mohan: So increase the RRP?
518302/12/2015, 00:29 - D Rouse: Emergency medicine would be screwed
518402/12/2015, 00:29 - D Rouse: And we are haemorrhaging trainees as it is
518502/12/2015, 00:30 - A Collier Underscoring all of this is the fact that 
5186
5187an increase in basic is an almost impossible thing to deliver within 
5188
5189the current cost constraints
519002/12/2015, 00:32 - A Collier I have to conclude that an elevated A&E 
5191
5192RRP might address the relatively small group this affects without huge 
5193
5194knock on consequences for other groups.
519502/12/2015, 00:32 - A Collier But that's a issue that if conceptually 
5196
5197is acceptable could be tagged on at the end of the payment framework 
5198
5199design process
520002/12/2015, 00:33 - D Rouse: What about IcM and others like neonates
520102/12/2015, 00:33 - A Collier What about them?
520202/12/2015, 00:33 - D Rouse: They work amazingly antisocial and high 
5203
5204frequency OOH
520502/12/2015, 00:35 - A Collier Where's your evidence for that? The worst 
5206
5207full shift rotas seen to be A&E.  
5208
5209If we can get the OOH uplift right and then there will be no need for 
5210
5211any RRP for any of the full shift groups.
521202/12/2015, 00:36 - A Collier In a fixed cost envelope money can't be 
5213
5214the solution to recruitment issues.
521502/12/2015, 00:36 - A Collier The rotas presented by NHSE as the most 
5216
5217unpleasant came from A&E
521802/12/2015, 00:38 - A Collier Rostering rules adapted from the New Deal 
5219
5220to restore work life balance is my suggestion.
522102/12/2015, 00:38 - A Collins: Ok, what if another specialty begins to 
5222
5223creep
522402/12/2015, 00:39 - K Mohan: The number of em trainees will be smaller 
5225
5226than 1125 as that's four nation.
522702/12/2015, 00:39 - A Collins: If we solve this with an RRP, how do we 
5228
5229stop other specialities creeping into antisocial rotas?
523002/12/2015, 00:39 - D Rouse: Yip didn't think there was that many of us
523102/12/2015, 00:40 - A Collins: Also this came up today, since when are 
5232
5233we *not* undertaking a 4 nation negotiations?
523402/12/2015, 00:40 - C Castles: Since the announcement of imposition
523502/12/2015, 00:40 - K Mohan: Since the other three nations were not in 
5236
5237dispute.
523802/12/2015, 00:41 - A Collins: Ok, so you guys think it's just England, 
5239
5240the professional negotiator thinks it's England and NI, and SJDC are 
5241
5242unsure if we're playing too.
524302/12/2015, 00:41 - A Collier Rostering rules is the way forward 
5244
5245(though it'll be difficult to tie them to pay). Currently there is 
5246
5247nothing that makes Sat/Sun truly special (apart from to a partial 
5248
5249triggering of banding).
525002/12/2015, 00:41 - A Collier The professional negotiator has no 
5251
5252special insight
525302/12/2015, 00:41 - A Collier Right now it's England but there will be 
5254
5255a domino effect
525602/12/2015, 00:41 - C Castles: Dunno why he thinks ni are in currently 
5257
5258- unless he is confused with consultants
525902/12/2015, 00:41 - K Mohan: It's up to the national JDCs as to whether 
5260
5261they want to join in. The professional negotiator may think eng and ni 
5262
5263as that is what cc was.
526402/12/2015, 00:42 - C Castles: Snap
526502/12/2015, 00:42 - A Collins: Apart from being briefed on the 
5266
5267negotiations directly by Johann so that he can prepare...
526802/12/2015, 00:42 - K Mohan: They will do what we ask them to. I doubt 
5269
5270Johann is in any doubt who he has spent the last two months negotiating 
5271
5272for.
527302/12/2015, 00:42 - A Collins: Am I wrong in thinking that we have 
5274
5275policy supporting the aim of a 4 nation contract?
527602/12/2015, 00:43 - A Collier Adam he's still an 'outsider'. Not yet 
5277
5278immersed in the process. His role is to guide on process issues not the 
5279
5280detail.
528102/12/2015, 00:43 - K Mohan: But it is up to the national JDCs to make 
5282
5283a decision to join in negs. That is their right.
528402/12/2015, 00:43 - C Castles: Ni health minister would need to issue 
5285
5286mandate for negs, then nijdc decide if they want it too
528702/12/2015, 00:43 - A Collins: Thanks kitty, I know, I sat in a room 
5288
5289with him for 5 hours and he talked about the plans he and Johann had 
5290
5291made.
529202/12/2015, 00:43 - C Castles: Policy is 4 nation contract is preferred
529302/12/2015, 00:44 - A Collins: I don't think which countries are 
5294
5295included is "detail"  really is it?
529602/12/2015, 00:44 - K Mohan: Sure. Thanks great. But I'd suggest you 
5297
5298ask Johann directly. Prob off this whatsapp group as we're not all 
5299
5300doing negs testing.
530102/12/2015, 00:44 - A Collins: I would think that was fairly basic shit 
5302
5303that we ought to have together by now. And since my national Chair 
5304
5305doesn't seem to know I'm sort of worried.
530602/12/2015, 00:44 - A Collins: Eugh, sorry. Tired.
530702/12/2015, 00:45 - A Collins: Ok I'm going to bed.
530802/12/2015, 00:45 - A Collins: Night all.
530902/12/2015, 00:45 - A Collier What Kevin said today may not be the same 
5310
5311and what Johann briefed him with
531202/12/2015, 00:45 - K Mohan: Is it Kevin doing this?
531302/12/2015, 00:45 - C Castles: I was on my way to bed 2 hours ago, how 
5314
5315did this happen?
531602/12/2015, 00:45 - K Mohan: He's doing both negs??
531702/12/2015, 00:46 - K Mohan: How will that even work?
531802/12/2015, 00:46 - A Collier In my limited contact with him I've seen 
5319
5320him make a couple of obvious slips
532102/12/2015, 00:46 - K Mohan: Anyway. That's Johann's business.
532202/12/2015, 00:47 - D Rouse: Who is in the negs team
532302/12/2015, 00:47 - D Rouse: Has that been decided yet
532402/12/2015, 00:47 - A Collier The testing is on going
532502/12/2015, 00:47 - C Castles: Is anyone else surprised how quiet the 
5326
5327listserver has been?
532802/12/2015, 00:48 - D Rouse: Yes
532902/12/2015, 00:48 - D Rouse: Conan
533002/12/2015, 00:48 - D Rouse: Shocked
533102/12/2015, 00:48 - A Collins: Decision Thursday midday. According to 
5332
5333Kevin. Which could not be congruent with what Johann has briefed ;)
533402/12/2015, 00:49 - A Collier Selection Q1: Which countries are 
5335
5336currently involved in negs?
5337A)England
5338B)Estonia
5339C)Who the fuck knows
534002/12/2015, 00:49 - D Rouse: Hahaha
534102/12/2015, 00:49 - C Castles: C
534202/12/2015, 00:49 - D Rouse: Well
534302/12/2015, 00:49 - D Rouse: C
534402/12/2015, 00:50 - D Rouse: From this conversation
534502/12/2015, 00:50 - A Collins: C)
534602/12/2015, 00:50 - C Castles: Its a trick question - its not really 
5347
5348negotiations?
534902/12/2015, 00:51 - D Rouse: Ooooooooo bicoloured tanzanite
535002/12/2015, 00:51 - D Rouse: Sorry I like watching shopping to
535102/12/2015, 00:51 - D Rouse: Tv
535202/12/2015, 00:51 - A Collins: Q2) how much did I shit myself when rhe 
5353
5354professional negotiator said ideally he'd like to work this up until 
5355
5356about mid Feb.
535702/12/2015, 00:51 - D Rouse: Never buy any thing just like watching it 
5358
5359makes me chuckle
536002/12/2015, 00:51 - A Collins: A) loads. B) profuse T7 c) Estonia.
536102/12/2015, 00:52 - C Castles: B
536202/12/2015, 00:52 - D Rouse: <Media omitted>
536302/12/2015, 00:52 - C Castles: Negotiations induced ibs
536402/12/2015, 00:52 - A Collins: Ooh that's pretty, it would bring out 
5365
5366your eyes David.
536702/12/2015, 00:53 - C Castles: 70 quid?
536802/12/2015, 00:53 - A Collins: Would you accept working evenings for 
5369
5370less money if you were paid in simulated gem stones?
537102/12/2015, 00:54 - D Rouse: Hahaha
537202/12/2015, 00:54 - D Rouse: They are real
537302/12/2015, 00:54 - D Rouse: They're found in Tanzania
537402/12/2015, 00:54 - D Rouse: Named tanzanite by Tiffany and co
537502/12/2015, 00:55 - D Rouse: Oooo magnetic clasps
537602/12/2015, 00:56 - C Castles: Is that a made up precious stone?
537702/12/2015, 00:56 - D Rouse: Nooo
537802/12/2015, 00:56 - A Collier Tanzanite is 1000x rarer than diamonds so 
5379
5380no, they won't be real
538102/12/2015, 00:56 - C Castles: We have a load of this sparkly crap left 
5382
5383over from the diamond mine...
538402/12/2015, 00:56 - C Castles: Oh right
538502/12/2015, 00:56 - D Rouse: Haha but. Tanzanite is a real gem t occurs 
5386
5387in nature
538802/12/2015, 00:56 - A Collier What Tanzanite there is largely smuggled 
5389
5390out of Tanzania illegally
539102/12/2015, 00:57 - D Rouse: But as Andrew says real tanzanite probs 
5392
5393worth more than £70
539402/12/2015, 00:57 - A Collier Tanzania bans the export of large carat 
5395
5396tanzanite stones
539702/12/2015, 00:58 - A Collier And thus ends my tanzanite knowledge.
539802/12/2015, 00:58 - C Castles: More than mine
539902/12/2015, 00:59 - C Castles: I'm sure everyone will love reading all 
5400
5401this in the morning :-)
540202/12/2015, 00:59 - A Collier I did my elective partly in Arusha, 
5403
5404Tanzania which before being deluged with gap years students climbing 
5405
5406Kilimanjaro was a mining town (and in partly still is).
540702/12/2015, 00:59 - A Collier I was just thinking the same thing Conan!
540802/12/2015, 00:59 - D Rouse: It's educational
540902/12/2015, 00:59 - A Collins: Does that mean you went to Tanzania 
5410
5411before it was cool?
541202/12/2015, 00:59 - C Castles: Ahhhh, so you smuggled some out and 
5413
5414bought your porsche?
541502/12/2015, 00:59 - K Mohan: No it is not educational.
541602/12/2015, 01:00 - A Collier Our Collins I'm not that old!
541702/12/2015, 01:00 - A Collins: This is literally the only way any of us 
5418
5419can be rounded human beings now.
542002/12/2015, 01:00 - D Rouse: Kitty is about to piss on the tanzanite 
5421
5422parade
542302/12/2015, 01:00 - A Collins: General knowledge what apps at 0100
542402/12/2015, 01:00 - D Rouse: :-p
542502/12/2015, 01:01 - D Rouse: Come on kitty tell me about white zircon 
5426
5427instead
542802/12/2015, 01:01 - A Collier In other news before Terry's Chocolate 
5429
5430orange was the company's only fruit based confectionary they also made 
5431
5432a chocolate apple
543302/12/2015, 01:01 - A Collier And for a short period a chocolate lemon
543402/12/2015, 01:01 - D Rouse: Oooooo
543502/12/2015, 01:01 - K Mohan: I dyed my hair red today.
543602/12/2015, 01:01 - A Collier But never sadly a chocolate lime
543702/12/2015, 01:01 - A Collins: Please be super bright red?
543802/12/2015, 01:01 - D Rouse: I prefer apples to oranges
543902/12/2015, 01:01 - K Mohan: It's pretty red.
544002/12/2015, 01:01 - A Collier Chocolate apples? Weirdo.
544102/12/2015, 01:02 - D Rouse: <Media omitted>
544202/12/2015, 01:02 - D Rouse: Except less cross eyed
544302/12/2015, 01:02 - A Collier I look forward to seeing a flame haired 
5444
5445siren on Friday
544602/12/2015, 01:02 - A Collins: I dunno I reckon most of us are pretty 
5447
5448cross eyed right now.
544902/12/2015, 01:02 - K Mohan: I DO NOT HAVE A RED FACE. NOR AM I CROSS-
5450
5451EYED
545202/12/2015, 01:02 - A Collier David did you just have that saved for 
5453
5454such an eventuality?
545502/12/2015, 01:03 - D Rouse: Maybe…
545602/12/2015, 01:03 - K Mohan: David met the hot Norweigan today.
545702/12/2015, 01:03 - C Castles: Hahaha
545802/12/2015, 01:03 - D Rouse: He was hot
545902/12/2015, 01:03 - A Collier You and you phone, full of pussy photos
546002/12/2015, 01:03 - K Mohan: He was. Even Els thought so.
546102/12/2015, 01:03 - D Rouse: He invited me to Norway so quickly Gave 
5462
5463him my card
546402/12/2015, 01:03 - D Rouse: ;-)
546502/12/2015, 01:04 - K Mohan: He gave me a lonely planet to Norway. All 
5466
5467wrapped up with a bow.
546802/12/2015, 01:04 - A Collier A valentines card was less than 
5469
5470professional though
547102/12/2015, 01:04 - D Rouse: Better than my signed photo wit
547202/12/2015, 01:04 - A Collins: Is that the one I saw you putting in all 
5473
5474those phone booths?
547502/12/2015, 01:05 - A Collier Yes, of him and his chocolate apples
547602/12/2015, 01:05 - C Castles: What?
547702/12/2015, 01:05 - K Mohan: Ok enough.
547802/12/2015, 01:05 - A Collier "Are you looking for fun with forbidden 
5479
5480fruit?"
548102/12/2015, 01:05 - C Castles: More
548202/12/2015, 01:06 - D Rouse: Hahaha
548302/12/2015, 01:06 - K Mohan: 'Night all. GO TO FUCKING SLEEP OR DO SOME 
5484
5485WORK.
548602/12/2015, 01:06 - D Rouse: <Media omitted>
548702/12/2015, 01:06 - C Castles: Haha
548802/12/2015, 01:06 - D Rouse: Just Incase kitty's gone pink
548902/12/2015, 01:06 - A Collins: Angry Kitty :o
549002/12/2015, 01:06 - A Collier I'm ringing the RSPCA
549102/12/2015, 01:06 - K Mohan: Grrrrr
549202/12/2015, 01:06 - C Castles: About kitty?
549302/12/2015, 01:06 - A Collins: Did you Google pink pussy to find that? 
5494
5495#dangermoney
549602/12/2015, 01:07 - A Collier No about all of these cats being abused 
5497
5498by David
549902/12/2015, 01:07 - D Rouse: Got to test my just for men is 
5500
5501hypoallergenic on something
550202/12/2015, 01:08 - A Collins: Has Johann made you dye your hair to 
5503
5504match his shirt and tie?
550502/12/2015, 01:08 - D Rouse: He gave me a pin today for being a good 
5506
5507officer.  Have you got a pin kitty?
550802/12/2015, 01:08 - D Rouse: :-P
550902/12/2015, 01:09 - C Castles: Kitty has a pin
551002/12/2015, 01:09 - A Collier Yes we all have pins
551102/12/2015, 01:09 - C Castles: Or so I have heard
551202/12/2015, 01:09 - A Collins: I still haven't got a bloody pin
551302/12/2015, 01:09 - A Collins: And I was harassed.
551402/12/2015, 01:09 - A Collier The question is why did you get yours 
5515
5516last David
551702/12/2015, 01:09 - A Collins: I think I deserve a pin.
551802/12/2015, 01:09 - C Castles: Though hers was through dubious methods 
5519
5520was it not?
552102/12/2015, 01:09 - A Collier Johan hates David but not as much as Adam
552202/12/2015, 01:09 - D Rouse: Hahaha nooo not sure kitty has got one she 
5523
5524was beating Johann for one today
552502/12/2015, 01:10 - C Castles: I thought she stole Tom dolphins
552602/12/2015, 01:10 - C Castles: Hang on, beating Johann?
552702/12/2015, 01:10 - A Collier She just wanted to collect the set. We've 
5528
5529now got all three.
553002/12/2015, 01:10 - D Rouse: Think Tom is plotting to retrieve it
553102/12/2015, 01:10 - A Collier You got the Gold one last week didn't you 
5532
5533Kitty?
553402/12/2015, 01:11 - D Rouse: :-( want a gold one. Perhaps they do a 
5535
5536tabzanite one
553702/12/2015, 01:11 - A Collins: Is rhe gold one the one that gets you 
5538
5539into museums for free?
554002/12/2015, 01:11 - C Castles: I didn't even know there were pins until 
5541
5542a fortnight ago
554302/12/2015, 01:11 - A Collier BMA Blue, BMA Pink (student colour) and 
5544
5545BMA Gold for life time awards or something.
554602/12/2015, 01:12 - A Collier They've only made a small test run of the 
5547
5548pink and Gold
554902/12/2015, 01:12 - C Castles: And I dont even have a bloody medal as 
5550
5551nijdc chair
555202/12/2015, 01:12 - A Collins: Does that mean Kitty's life will be 
5553
5554ending soon if she's getting a lifetime achievement gong? ??
555502/12/2015, 01:12 - C Castles: Well Johann was going to strangle her
555602/12/2015, 01:13 - A Collier Or I may just have made that shit up 
5557
5558about pink and gold pins :-)
555902/12/2015, 01:13 - C Castles: Aww
556002/12/2015, 01:13 - D Rouse: Perhaps kitty's was blue
556102/12/2015, 01:13 - A Collins: Pathological liar...
556202/12/2015, 01:13 - D Rouse: <Media omitted>
556302/12/2015, 01:13 - D Rouse: Then this happens
556402/12/2015, 01:13 - C Castles: It was almost like ba exec club
556502/12/2015, 01:14 - C Castles: Was that the narcissist in you made you 
5566
5567lie Andrew?
556802/12/2015, 01:15 - A Collier Nah just bored of the Kitty baiting and 
5569
5570felt the need to step in
557102/12/2015, 01:15 - C Castles: Johann left our conversation to email 
5572
5573jdc!
557402/12/2015, 01:15 - A Collins: Maybe he doesn't love us anymore.
557502/12/2015, 01:15 - A Collins: *sob*
557602/12/2015, 01:16 - D Rouse: Right I am off to bed. I think the 
5577
5578emergency medicine conversation was very worth while. 
5579
5580And I thoroughly enjoyed the conversation about tanzanite.   Might test 
5581
5582Andrews knowledge of other gem stones. 
5583
5584And we love kitty and looking forward to the red hair. 
5585
5586I was thinking of going blonde again?
558702/12/2015, 01:17 - C Castles: We did some of that priorities stuff 
5588
5589before
559002/12/2015, 01:17 - C Castles: Night
559102/12/2015, 01:17 - A Collins: I've shaved my beard. 
5592
5593Night.
559402/12/2015, 01:18 - C Castles: Bollocks, just realised my baby will be 
5595
5596up in 3 hours :-(
559702/12/2015, 01:21 - K Mohan: Hahahaha. Love Andrew. :)
559802/12/2015, 01:21 - D Rouse: We do love you kitty
559902/12/2015, 01:21 - D Rouse: Night
560002/12/2015, 01:23 - C Castles: OK, I think we should make 1800 to 2359 
5601
5602on Sunday plain time, then we've given away 6 more hours plain time, at 
5603
5604a weekend, but no patients will come in, so we wont have to work any 
5605
5606more of them
560702/12/2015, 01:24 - D Rouse: Are you joking???
560802/12/2015, 01:24 - C Castles: ;-)
560902/12/2015, 01:24 - D Rouse: I might actually have w stroke
561002/12/2015, 01:24 - C Castles: Yes, dont panic
561102/12/2015, 01:24 - D Rouse: Phew
561202/12/2015, 01:24 - C Castles: Night
561302/12/2015, 01:44 - J Malawana: Phone died. Perfect. Will pose next 
5614
5615question tomorrow.
561602/12/2015, 03:32 - E McCourt: If your all awake do you want to come 
5617
5618see some patients?! #iminworkexec
561902/12/2015, 03:32 - E McCourt: *you're
562002/12/2015, 04:17 - ?L Elliott: 613 messages... Seriously.
562102/12/2015, 04:19 - ?L Elliott: That's ridiculous.
562202/12/2015, 06:44 - C Castles: You missed all the fun
562302/12/2015, 06:49 - D Tooth: Me too
562402/12/2015, 07:09 - J Malawana: Can I be clear. The above conversation 
5625
5626was simply a way to think about a problem. It wasn't policy forming. 
5627
5628This group provided me a method to engage exec members in a private way 
5629
5630to simply talk ideas through. As I said above like how a think tank or 
5631
5632focus group does just to test out possibilities. I apologise to exec 
5633
5634members that don't feel it appropriate, it genuinely was because if I 
5635
5636have to test ideas out and I would prefer it being with you guys. 
5637
5638Johann
563902/12/2015, 07:10 - C Castles: So long as the daily mail or the sun 
5640
5641dont hack it ;-)
564202/12/2015, 07:12 - C Castles: Jdc officer demands saturdays of to dye 
5643
5644cats various colours, whilst spending fortune buying illegal Tanzanian 
5645
5646gemstones...
564702/12/2015, 07:19 - J Malawana: I think if anyone's phone is hacked 
5648
5649people would learn a lot of things the sun or daily mail could you use
565002/12/2015, 07:20 - J Malawana: Should have seen some of the 
5651
5652fascinating emails I got on Tuesday. Didn't see them till yesterday. 
5653
5654Luckily!
565502/12/2015, 07:20 - C Castles: They'd also see all those photos Adam 
5656
5657keeps sending me
565802/12/2015, 07:21 - C Castles: Emails from members?
565902/12/2015, 07:33 - T Crocker-Buque: Interesting convo - lost its way a 
5660
5661little in the middle...
566202/12/2015, 07:35 - T Crocker-Buque: I've got a challenge for Yannis - 
5663
5664now imagine you're  an average middle grade junior doctor. Can you 
5665
5666design any contract situation in which you'd accept an extension of 
5667
5668plain time with any financial or non-financial concessions from DH?
566902/12/2015, 07:40 - Z Greaves: 650+ emails!!!!
567002/12/2015, 07:41 - Z Greaves: Just caught up, now off to work .... 
5671
5672Might actually get a chance to reply when I get there
567302/12/2015, 07:47 - J Malawana: I realise I may live in a bubble. In 
5674
5675last three months have routinely had in excess of 3-4000 messages a day 
5676
5677via messenger, whatsapp and Twitter as well as emails and that forum. I 
5678
5679generally am desensitised to communications. I am sorry about this. I 
5680
5681should have realised when I asked David to kindly take over a key area 
5682
5683around rep Comms and the huge sudden change and the effect.
568402/12/2015, 08:24 - A Collins: I think your use of this group last 
5685
5686night was perfectly valid Johann. 
5687The part where some of us became a little delirious was perhaps less 
5688
5689useful.
569002/12/2015, 08:34 - L J Davis: Hmmm. I'm not sure if I want a pin or a 
5691
5692pink pussy, but I think I'd like to try a chocolate lemon
569302/12/2015, 08:35 - L J Davis: Not being diametrically opposite of me, 
5694
5695evenings & weekends are fucking impossible for childcare.
569602/12/2015, 08:35 - M Redman: Johann can we have tonight's question 
5697
5698earlier ti involve more people/promote good sleep hygiene?
569902/12/2015, 08:35 - M Redman: 
5700
5701http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/londons-crystal-maze-experience-
5702
5703set-to-open-as-venue-is-secured-a3126671.html
5704
5705And can we go here as a team building exercise? Pleeeeease
570602/12/2015, 08:36 - J Malawana: Yes. Unless people have a fundamental 
5707
5708issue which makes it more difficult.
570902/12/2015, 08:36 - L J Davis: So if solve it by incentivising with £££ 
5710
5711and making it OPT-IN
571202/12/2015, 08:38 - L J Davis: I know its controversial, but we could 
5713
5714make it so Drs are actually treated like adults and sign up for out-
5715
5716of-hours.
571702/12/2015, 08:41 - K Mohan: Crystal maze please!
571802/12/2015, 08:53 - K Mohan: Opt in Is interesting but unless you have 
5719
5720a rule by which you have to sign up for a certain no. (Which may defeat 
5721
5722the purpose) who's going to cover the OOH?
572302/12/2015, 08:54 - L J Davis: Yes: you have to do a certain amount 
5724
5725because of training...
572602/12/2015, 08:55 - L J Davis: But it'd give people (some) choice.
572702/12/2015, 08:55 - K Mohan: But what if no one signs up for a shift? I 
5728
5729really don't get how this could work.
573002/12/2015, 08:55 - L J Davis: You incentivise it more...?
573102/12/2015, 08:56 - J Malawana: Marketisation.
573202/12/2015, 08:56 - L J Davis: How do nursing staff do it?
573302/12/2015, 08:56 - J Malawana: You mean like locum rates :-)
573402/12/2015, 08:56 - L J Davis: And GP out of hours?
573502/12/2015, 08:56 - L J Davis: (Grown up GP)
573602/12/2015, 08:56 - J Malawana: Ljd isn't that what Lansley tried to do 
5737
5738:-)
573902/12/2015, 08:57 - K Mohan: So basically all the people on the rots 
5740
5741could just wait and wait and wait until the shift gets really expensive 
5742
5743and then sign up. I realise that's how the market works but that's a 
5744
5745logistic nightmare and doesn't help anyone planning ahead.
574602/12/2015, 08:57 - L J Davis: Oooh- I don't know. Did he?
574702/12/2015, 08:57 - K Mohan: Rota
574802/12/2015, 08:58 - K Mohan: And it is defeated by the fact that if you 
5749
5750have to do a certain no the employer knows you will have to do it 
5751
5752regardless.
575302/12/2015, 08:58 - J Malawana: It's the supply and demand driver. But 
5754
5755you would then have to have a mechanism to administer the market. 
5756
5757That's where the inefficiency comes in.
575802/12/2015, 08:58 - K Mohan: I know that but it only works if you don't 
5759
5760have to do a certain no.
576102/12/2015, 08:59 - J Malawana: Unless you have extremely robust 
5762
5763rostering software. And a staff group entirely bought into the concept.
576402/12/2015, 08:59 - L J Davis: (I'm putting iras out there, bear with 
5765
5766me) No; you'd need a system whereby you had to do x many ooh.
576702/12/2015, 09:00 - L J Davis: And you'd just do a sort of doodle poll; 
5768
5769yes, I can work that weekend, maybe do those nights, definite no on 
5770
5771those twighlights there...
577202/12/2015, 09:00 - L J Davis: At least 2months ahead of rota at start 
5773
5774of post
577502/12/2015, 09:01 - L J Davis: (Not iras - ideas!!!)
577602/12/2015, 09:01 - K Mohan: Right? Then what?
577702/12/2015, 09:02 - K Mohan: But those who know how to play the system 
5778
5779will win and those who don't will be fucked.
578002/12/2015, 09:02 - L J Davis: Then organised people who submitted 
5781
5782early their (say) 200 ooh are sorted...
578302/12/2015, 09:03 - L J Davis: And others are indeed not so happy...
578402/12/2015, 09:04 - L J Davis: But it's surely got to be a system we 
5785
5786could make work?
578702/12/2015, 09:04 - L J Davis: I'm just trying to think about other 
5788
5789approaches.
579002/12/2015, 09:05 - L J Davis: If I knew I could pick my Saturdays & 
5791
5792evenings I might not feel so aggrieved
579302/12/2015, 09:07 - L J Davis: Even if the choosing was signing up to a 
5794
5795pattern of 'blocks' (every Thursday late, every 4th Saturday, etc)
579602/12/2015, 09:18 - T Crocker-Buque: They'd hate it - it would make 
5797
5798planning and cost controls a nightmare for Trusts
579902/12/2015, 09:20 - L J Davis: Ok; remove my cheeky suggestion of 
5800
5801incentivising shifts ppl don't want to do. Just make it a system where 
5802
5803ppl can choose their work patterns...
580402/12/2015, 09:27 - Z Greaves: Ok so, I do have a slightly different 
5805
5806opinion to the rest of the group, because I think asking what we would 
5807
5808have to get to sacrifice Saturday's is the wrong question.  Instead we 
5809
5810need to look at why it is that Saturday's are so important to our 
5811
5812members.  There are two reasons for this one Saturday's have a higher 
5813
5814personal opportunity cost than weekdays and two (and this is the crux 
5815
5816of the whole dispute) it devalues us.  Now when we talk about being 
5817
5818devalued its not about getting a pay rise, it's not about comparing us 
5819
5820to other professionals, it's about failure to recognise our 
5821
5822contribution and that we regularly go above and beyond what is needed 
5823
5824and get no recognition of this from the people who pay the bills.  If 
5825
5826you look at the ramblings of the junior contract forum when people 
5827
5828build crazy wish lists they're not asking for more, they're looking 
5829
5830back and saying we have been devalued by below inflation rises and loss 
5831
5832of accessory benefits for x years. It is very simply and trite tho it 
5833
5834is, because junior doctors do not feel loved, by employers or the DH 
5835
5836and particularly Jeremy hunt.  
5837
5838So if what's got our members riled is about value and not about hours 
5839
5840or pay then we can reframe the argument slightly and shift the focus.  
5841
5842We currently have a contract that was designed around hours, replacing 
5843
5844it with a contract designed around hours that is worse than the current 
5845
5846one is not ever going to be acceptable.  Id propose we design a 
5847
5848contract for training and doctors wellbeing - it's talking about these 
5849
5850things that makes the members light up when you talk to them about what 
5851
5852they want.   A lot of the things that do this the employers dismissed 
5853
5854last time as not needing to be in the contract, I think because they 
5855
5856were faffy and inconvenient not because they are costly.  For example 
5857
5858Saturday opportunity cost could be mitigated by childcare vouchers and 
5859
5860compensatory days off in the week.   Provision of rest facilities post 
5861
5862nights, provision of free hot food. Hypothecated study leave budgets 
5863
5864for both mandated and trainees choice study events. And use of work 
5865
5866scheduling to mandate SPAs for trainees to work in a self directed 
5867
5868manner to address their own training needs would be a huge win.  All 
5869
5870these would allow us to feel that the work we do is valued and that our 
5871
5872training needs are important not just to our ES/CSs but also to our 
5873
5874employers - get stuff like this in and trainees will accept losses 
5875
5876elsewhere.
5877
5878Of course there would still need to be sensible limits to prevent the 
5879
5880system being abused: I liked Adams idea of having a limit on weekends 
5881
5882that matched the consultants and after which pay is prohibitive to stop 
5883
5884things getting out of hand.  I also think that under pay for all work 
5885
5886done outside of Rotad hours we should be arguing for locum equivalent 
5887
5888rates, as that is what additional hours essentially are.
588902/12/2015, 09:29 - B Roberts: Wow, Zoe!
589002/12/2015, 09:30 - Z Greaves: Well It was a response to 650 posts ... 
5891
5892all rolled into one neat bundle :)
589302/12/2015, 09:30 - D Rouse: Where as for me I don't want to lose pay.  
5894
5895For me paid less is red line.
589602/12/2015, 09:30 - B Roberts: Along LJD's line, I was thinking of an 
5897
5898opt-in system in my sleep last night. GP trainees have to do a certain 
5899
5900number of OOH shifts (Adam, take note) for technically NO pay. They 
5901
5902have to be logged in our eportfolio or we don't signed off at ARCP.
590302/12/2015, 09:31 - A Collins: I think zoe has explained what Johann 
5904
5905and I were unknowingly  trying to hash out last night: Saturday working 
5906
5907isn't per se unacceptable, it just difficult.  *if* (and I suspect 
5908
5909that's the reason for the question) the govt is desperate for 
5910
5911Saturdays, what could we extract from them in return, which keeps our 
5912
5913members the happiest
591402/12/2015, 09:31 - B Roberts: There could be a rota for regular on-
5915
5916calls on weekends as now but opt-in for the "normal working day" at an 
5917
5918incentivised rate. Don't do them, don't get signed off.
591902/12/2015, 09:33 - B Roberts: Just to add, I think weekends are a 
5920
5921total red line as per Zoe's message but I'm thinking outside of my own 
5922
5923needs as per instructions!
592402/12/2015, 09:33 - B Roberts: I presume it's the normal working day on 
5925
5926a Saturday that Jezza is after.
592702/12/2015, 09:36 - L J Davis: Can I just say childcare vouchers are 
5928
5929useless at weekends. I know of no nurseries, etc (or childminders) who 
5930
5931do Saturdays. We'd be reliant purely on parents (and that's v difficult 
5932
5933if they are both Drs)
593402/12/2015, 09:37 - D Rouse: More days off in the week doesn't help my 
5935
5936life be any more social when no one else is off 
5937
5938I don't have children so giving me child care vouchers doesn't help me 
5939
5940or all those other doctors who don't want children. Child care should 
5941
5942be built in for OOH duties though I agree with that 
5943
5944And GP trainees are paid well for the small number of OOH by the RRP 
5945
5946they receive.  
5947
5948So for those of us with a small family unit, who's friends are more 
5949
5950like family and have no children where's our incentive. 
5951
5952Our incentive is pay
595302/12/2015, 09:37 - L J Davis: And given the nature of needing to move 
5954
5955for jobs, you can count friendly family out...
595602/12/2015, 09:37 - A Collins: Serious question: does the GP RRP work? 
5957
5958Do we have data to show (even coincidentally) that it increased 
5959
5960recruitment?
596102/12/2015, 09:38 - L J Davis: No no no!!! GP rrp does not have 
5962
5963anything to do with ooh!!!
596402/12/2015, 09:38 - B Roberts: It used to be 60%, Adam!
596502/12/2015, 09:38 - A Collins: SEPARATE QUESTION LJ :)
596602/12/2015, 09:38 - A Collins: Ok Park that question.
596702/12/2015, 09:38 - B Roberts: Don't worry, LJD, I'm educating him on 
5968
5969another thread..!
597002/12/2015, 09:38 - D Rouse: You get RRP to make up your salary as you 
5971
5972are unbanded no?
597302/12/2015, 09:39 - D Rouse: You are unbanded due to the speciality you 
5974
5975are in
597602/12/2015, 09:39 - L J Davis: N=1. (My Tim). Yes. 18m unbanded would 
5977
5978have been financially impossible.
597902/12/2015, 09:39 - D Rouse: All base salaries are the same structure
598002/12/2015, 09:39 - D Rouse: So
598102/12/2015, 09:39 - D Rouse: It's done because you don't work many ooh
598202/12/2015, 09:39 - D Rouse: Therefore GP premium is everything to do 
5983
5984with OOH
598502/12/2015, 09:41 - K Mohan: Can I suggest we don't use the terminology 
5986
5987of doing what the consultsnts are doing over weekends. I think 
5988
5989consultsnts will reject the max 13 weekends a year. If we want to 
5990
5991accept something like that, we need to do it separately and not tie 
5992
5993ourselves to them as politically it will be difficult. The politics are 
5994
5995irrelevant in our choice in my opinion. But we need to do things for 
5996
5997our own reasons not giving cc ammunition to try to say we cannot accept 
5998
5999stuff.
600002/12/2015, 09:41 - D Rouse: There is tons of OOH work which could be 
6001
6002provided by GP in the urgent care centres. Therefore providing a source 
6003
6004of banding of ooh payments negating the need for RRP
600502/12/2015, 09:43 - L J Davis: But then it's not GP training, david...
600602/12/2015, 09:43 - Z Greaves: And yes we don't want salaries to go 
6007
6008down, but if base goes up that may not be an issue - what I'm saying is 
6009
6010that we do not have a workforce that is fundamentally opposed to 
6011
6012working Saturday's - most already do and as frequently as 1 in 2 for 
6013
6014some so if you reframe the argument away from which hours get paid how 
6015
6016much and no one is taking a massive pay cut, then which hours attract 
6017
6018which bits of pay is largely academic for most doctors
601902/12/2015, 09:43 - L J Davis: By urgent care, d'you mean community (ie 
6020
6021GP ooh?).
602202/12/2015, 09:43 - B Roberts: David, no!
602302/12/2015, 09:44 - B Roberts: GP OOH is for training in primary care!
602402/12/2015, 09:46 - B Roberts: It's a bit like asking you to do some of 
6025
6026your EM hours being the duty psychiatrist - probably helpful but not 
6027
6028directly educational for your EM training requirements.
602902/12/2015, 09:47 - A Collins: I think by UCCs David means the sort of 
6030
6031centralised GP OOH work
603202/12/2015, 09:48 - A Collins: But still GP work.
603302/12/2015, 09:48 - B Roberts: Sorry, I'm getting my threads 
6034
6035confused...
603602/12/2015, 09:49 - L J Davis: Doesn't work; nightmare for supervision, 
6037
6038indemnity, etc.
603902/12/2015, 09:49 - B Roberts: You beat me to it, LJD!
604002/12/2015, 09:49 - A Collins: Really? All the Lothian GP OOH is done 
6041
6042from OPD 5 at RIE as far as I know.
604302/12/2015, 09:50 - L J Davis: You'll have to de-TIA. That for me 
6044
6045Adam...
604602/12/2015, 09:52 - A Collins: OPD = outpatients dept, RIE = royal 
6047
6048infirmary of Edinburgh
604902/12/2015, 09:52 - A Collins: Sozzles
605002/12/2015, 09:54 - B Roberts: Wot's TIA?
605102/12/2015, 09:54 - A Collins: She means TLA
605202/12/2015, 09:54 - A Collins: I assume. Or she's being rude and saying 
6053
6054I'm having a stroke :p
605502/12/2015, 09:54 - B Roberts: And no-one say transient ischaemic 
6056
6057attack!
605802/12/2015, 09:54 - B Roberts: What's TLA?!
605902/12/2015, 09:55 - A Collins: (obligatory: do we have to explain the 
6060
6061acute neurology to the GP Trainee *again*)
606202/12/2015, 09:55 - A Collins: Three letter acronym :)
606302/12/2015, 09:55 - B Roberts: Aha!
606402/12/2015, 10:04 - A Collins: So, I've been speaking to bethan who has 
6065
6066been telling me all about GP Trainee ThugLife. (doesn't mean she agrees 
6067
6068with all this!) 
6069
6070It sounds to me atm like GPSTs are rota'd for an unbanded 40 hour week. 
6071
6072They get an "RRP" of roughly 40% on top of this, supposedly just for 
6073
6074being a GP. 
6075
6076In fact, GPSTs have to do some OOH shifts, which are not paid or 
6077
6078contracted. They also have a problem with hours creep becuase they have 
6079
6080no or scanty monitoring, and their "rota master" is often their 
6081
6082supervisor who they need sign off from and can't therefore whinge to 
6083
6084about hours. 
6085
6086That is equating (according to Bethan) to about 50 hours per week. 
6087
6088That's going to either be a 1A or 2B rota then, realistically 2B if 
6089
6090they're doing 40 hours a week in hours and 10 a week OOH.
6091
6092So there is no GP RRP. An RRP should be where you hang a sign saying 
6093
6094*FREE MONEY* over the door of specialty interviews to entice people in. 
6095
6096The situation currently, is closer to one where GPSTs are informally 
6097
6098banded to 2B.
6099
6100Its also unclear if GP retention/recruitment is so fucked becuase 
6101A) being a GP is shite
6102B) being a GPST is shite 
6103C) all of the above 
6104GPST RRP I doubt will solve it if the answer is A or C. 
6105
6106What If:
6107GPSTs are paid for all work done. (I believe we have a commitment for 
6108
6109this from the govt) 
6110GPSTs are *then* paid an RRP (which follows the trainee for length of 
6111
6112training). 
6113
6114Qns
61151) Would GPST hours slowly fall back towards a real 40 hours per week 
6116
6117because of cost
61182) would that fall be desirable, or would GPSTs rather have the pay? 
61193) Would that RRP (now being a real RRP) actually work better?
612002/12/2015, 10:05 - A Collins: 4) once GPSTs were paid for all work 
6121
6122done at the same rate as hospital doctors, would the whole issue of 
6123
6124evenings and weekends be a little easier to think about?
612502/12/2015, 10:14 - B Roberts: Almost there, Adam! Very well you have 
6126
6127done. I am GP Yoda.
612802/12/2015, 10:19 - J Malawana: I would also argue that the job of 
6129
6130general practice is actually impossible. Much more so than hospital 
6131
6132medicine. The same highly intelligent can easily pick much easier 
6133
6134careers in hospital medicine. I work in a highly "stressful" high 
6135
6136intensity specialty. It's a walk in the park compared to general 
6137
6138practice.
613902/12/2015, 10:19 - J Malawana: Wouldn't wish that job on anyone.
614002/12/2015, 10:19 - J Malawana: So paying a premium for people to sign 
6141
6142away their souls is totally warranted in my book.
614302/12/2015, 10:21 - J Malawana: People use anecdote to justify their 
6144
6145positions and the anecdotes in general practice just don't reflect the 
6146
6147underlying pressures. Often the anecdote is a reflection of the impact 
6148
6149of how unmanageable the job actually is b
615002/12/2015, 10:26 - A Collins: Not suggesting we remove it. Just 
6151
6152suggesting it has already been removed to some extent.
615302/12/2015, 10:26 - A Collins: I'm glad someone else wants to be a GP 
6154
6155so I don't have to though, like Johann!
615602/12/2015, 10:32 - E McCourt: Ok so change the game: David et al maybe 
6157
6158you should think like a GP and consider how to optimise the contract, 
6159
6160and Bethan & team GP think like an EM/acute hospital trainee and 
6161
6162consider the same. Might help see all perspectives or new perspectives 
6163
6164or whatevs.
616502/12/2015, 10:32 - A Collins: OOOOH
616602/12/2015, 10:33 - E McCourt: Out out out of hours?
616702/12/2015, 10:33 - A Collins: ??
616802/12/2015, 10:40 - E McCourt: Someone explain the absence of 
6169
6170monitoring in GP placements again? If unsafe hours are unsafe, then 
6171
6172unsafe GP rotas are unsafe. Surely they need to be monitored/equivalent 
6173
6174and reduced/rewarded appropriately. if trainees are being intimidated 
6175
6176by supervisors that's a different issue isn't it?
617702/12/2015, 10:50 - D Rouse: And non child families when shall we look 
6178
6179at those
618002/12/2015, 10:52 - L J Davis: Not intimidated by supervisors...
618102/12/2015, 10:53 - L J Davis: Just that whole extra "goodwill" thing 
6182
6183is very apparent when you're in a surgery. Plus until recently, almost 
6184
6185all surgeries had individual GP reg contracts; now mostly lead 
6186
6187employers.
618802/12/2015, 10:54 - L J Davis: The advantage to non-child is that most 
6189
6190of us have been Drs prior to children... I used to be an o&g trainee 
6191
6192then (sigh!)
619302/12/2015, 10:54 - L J Davis: So at least there's some insight ??
619402/12/2015, 10:55 - L J Davis: (Out partying until the wee small 
6195
6196hours... Tuesdays in bed... Drs accommodation in Worksop. Oh. Yes. 
6197
6198That.)
619902/12/2015, 11:15 - K Mohan: I struggle with this tbh. I think we have 
6200
6201to acknowledge that everyone's circs are not the same. Just because 
6202
6203someone has once not had children it doesn't mean that they understand 
6204
6205what every doctor's life without children is like and what matters to 
6206
6207them. In the same way that everyone with children is not the same (and 
6208
6209priorities are not the same) and everyone without is not be same.
621002/12/2015, 11:15 - K Mohan: Also just to say this stream of 
6211
6212consciousness is exceedingly hard to follow.
621302/12/2015, 11:19 - L J Davis: Says the lady who shared her new hair 
6214
6215colour last night?? but, yes, agree; we can only do the best to 
6216
6217represent that we can. Everyone has different life 
6218
6219experiences/expectations...
622002/12/2015, 11:21 - K Mohan: I think my point is that I think we have 
6221
6222to be very careful with our broad generalisations unless we have 
6223
6224evidence. We all tend to make sweeping statements about the groups of 
6225
6226trainees we represent without basing them on evidence. That's fine for 
6227
6228chat but we cannot base a new contract on that.
622902/12/2015, 11:23 - L J Davis: Yes. Although this is a space for 
6230
6231chat... Not policy making
623202/12/2015, 11:24 - K Mohan: I'm making a non-value based comment about 
6233
6234difficulty to follow this thread. It may be easier to have different 
6235
6236threads that people can opt into (and out of). I said nothing about the 
6237
6238perceived relevance or not of comments.
623902/12/2015, 11:26 - L J Davis: I think we are agreeing... ??
624002/12/2015, 11:29 - K Mohan: I really don't have time to read back 
6241
6242through to work out if we are, so I'll take your word for it.
624302/12/2015, 11:29 - K Mohan: I've now completely muted this thread so 
6244
6245if anything relevant happens can someone let me know.
624602/12/2015, 11:31 - A Collins: Of course :) 
6247I think we're just taking the opportunity to have not committal but 
6248
6249relevant chat. We can formally discuss ideas at meetings/on list
625002/12/2015, 11:34 - ?L Elliott: Relevant chat does not include talk 
6251
6252about cats or lemon cheesecake or whatever it was. Same as Kitty I've 
6253
6254muted the chat so let me know if something happens.
625502/12/2015, 11:37 - J Malawana: Actually that's a perfect solution. The 
6256
6257point is speed of internal Comms and the team bonding that occurs with 
6258
6259regular interaction. Happy for people to mute this as they see fit as 
6260
6261that doesn't stop those that just want to talk about cake to do so.
626202/12/2015, 11:38 - L J Davis: Cake! Nom nom nom!
626302/12/2015, 11:40 - ?L Elliott: I cannot be expected to sieve through 
6264
6265700+ messages to find the bits that are useful. I do not have time or 
6266
6267the will power.
626802/12/2015, 11:41 - ?L Elliott: Anyway, personal choice!
626902/12/2015, 11:41 - A Collins: You're really not expected to :) we'll 
6270
6271make a point of bringing anything important up separately.
627202/12/2015, 11:43 - ?L Elliott: My whatsapp does not differentiate 
6273
6274between exec stuff and cats so good luck with that one.
627502/12/2015, 11:46 - K Mohan: Maybe we could have a JDC exec "important 
6276
6277announcements about BMA stuff" only group? I dread suggesting this btw.
627802/12/2015, 11:46 - E McCourt: I suspect that goes by it's pseudonym 
6279
6280The Listserver.
628102/12/2015, 11:52 - K Mohan: If that's the case it should be poss to 
6282
6283leave this group entirely and just look out for stuff there. I suspect 
6284
6285that isn't quite true though.
628602/12/2015, 12:21 - A Yassaee: Ditto on muting.
628702/12/2015, 12:25 - A Collins: Johann, do you feel we've thrashed this 
6288
6289issue of out of hours to death or do you want to refine a question on 
6290
6291it?
629202/12/2015, 12:29 - B Roberts: Johann - your comments on GP totally sum 
6293
6294up how I feel. Working a horrific A&E rota is how I got into all this 
6295
6296last year so I fully sympathise with my EM colleagues. Ellen - I'm 
6297
6298banging on about hours and monitoring at the GP trainees committee and 
6299
6300we're working on it. We all have shit we have to contend with in our 
6301
6302different specialties that may not be so apparent to those outside that 
6303
6304specialty. In a nutshell, my personal feeling is that Saturdays should 
6305
6306NEVER be considered plain time for any person in any specialty. There 
6307
6308we go!
630902/12/2015, 12:30 - E McCourt: ??
631002/12/2015, 12:30 - B Roberts: Btw, if we did this on the listserver, 
6311
6312I'd find it far easier to type...
631302/12/2015, 12:30 - A Collins: Web.whatsapp.com
631402/12/2015, 12:31 - A Collins: (browser version of WhatsApp)
631502/12/2015, 12:32 - E McCourt: Listserver, closed BMA community, there 
6316
6317must be a forum that makes people less irate...
631802/12/2015, 18:14 - L Boyle: Can I just say as well - I woke this 
6319
6320morning to 637 messages & images of cats etc in my photo stream on the 
6321
6322phone lol (I semi-approve as I'm not the most judicious user of 
6323
6324listservers myself!) - but on a serious note I can't follow this group 
6325
6326& I'm not prepared to try.
632702/12/2015, 18:41 - A Sami: I like communicating via WhatsApp 
6328
6329(accessibility)
6330
6331I like how Zoe made her points in a message or two. Some people might 
6332
6333hate longer messages and some hate shorter frequent messages. I suspect 
6334
6335the latter is commoner.
6336
6337I hope all of us are sensible when sending a number messages here.
6338
6339I, like many, had 600+ messages that I could not go through this 
6340
6341morning because I was in a course.
6342
6343@17:00, the message count got it 800+
6344
6345I love you all. Please try to keep this nice and quick line of 
6346
6347communication.
6348
6349Now, I like Johann questioning us here as we get the chance to think it 
6350
6351out.
6352
6353A&E and Neonates for example are running at 1 in 2 weekends most of the 
6354
6355time.
6356
6357And I, like Bethan, worked more tha 1.5 in 2 weekends.
6358
6359Working weekends for A&E and Neonates cannot get any worse.
6360
6361I would like to see a cap of 13 weekends in a year. I am doing 26 at 
6362
6363the moment.
6364
6365I like to explore the eoster system that LJD was referring to, 
6366
6367something similar to nurses. It might improve recruitment in A&E if we 
6368
6369can choose which weekend to have off.
6370
6371I like the escalating cost suggested by Adam? To police the weekend 
6372
6373cap.
6374
6375Plain time
6376
6377Saturday is valuable to lots of people for different reasons. I would 
6378
6379try and fight extension of plain time to BOTH weekdays and Saturdays 
6380
6381with the aim to accept either of them but not both, if possible. 
6382
6383I would suggest that if plain time has to be extended that on-site 
6384
6385child care to be provided. Link both to see what they come back with.
6386
6387(DOI I have a 3 years child, BUT my wife is a non-medic, so it does not 
6388
6389affect me)
6390
6391Other things yhat we could ask for, is more A/L and easier access to 
6392
6393S/L (especially to those of trainee's choice)
6394
6395Safegaurds
6396
6397Can we consider a mechanism to remove trainees from offending trusts? 
6398
6399Something similar to what happens if training is not good? I am not 
6400
6401suggesting Deaneries to be involved, I am saying to adapt from the 
6402
6403deaneries their approach to remove trainees if trainees are not happy 
6404
6405with their training.
6406
6407Many thanks
6408
6409Amjad
641002/12/2015, 18:51 - A Yassaee: I think Wales might have a pretty good 
6411
6412mechanism of pulling trainees? I've certainly heard a few trusts that 
6413
6414have removed them after complaints about training.
641502/12/2015, 19:11 - B Roberts: Yes, the deanery visits difficult 
6416
6417departments as highlighted by the GMC survey and will remove trainees.
6418
6419New idea - work a certain acceptable number of Saturdays as we do now, 
6420
6421opt in to work extra at a premium rate and those who work more opt-in 
6422
6423shifts could be eligible for a bonus. Like the bankers that JH loves.
642402/12/2015, 19:57 - C Castles: FYI, had confirmation today that the 
6425
6426current acas agreement is only for England, as are the pending 
6427
6428negotiations and essentially any of the devolved nations can't join in 
6429
6430at this point, even if we /they wanted to
643102/12/2015, 19:59 - A Collins: Oh that's interesting...
643202/12/2015, 20:02 - B Roberts: Very interesting. From where did you get 
6433
6434this information?
643502/12/2015, 20:07 - C Castles: Indirectly from Mark Porter
643602/12/2015, 20:08 - D Rouse: Have we sent
643702/12/2015, 20:08 - D Rouse: Or should we
643802/12/2015, 20:08 - D Rouse: A message of support to student nurses
643902/12/2015, 20:08 - C Castles: Nations meeting was today, so got the 
6440
6441info from chair nic and nic secretary separately
644202/12/2015, 20:08 - B Roberts: David, I do enjoy your serialised 
6443
6444messages!
644502/12/2015, 20:09 - B Roberts: Conan - interesting stuff, will feed 
6446
6447back to BMA Wales.
644802/12/2015, 20:12 - D Rouse: Sorry Bethan. It's from the old MSN 
6449
6450Messenger days, whilst playing red alert across dial up. Some habits 
6451
6452are just so ingrained from back then that it's the default messaging 
6453
6454position and try as I might I keep reverting to it. 
6455
6456
6457So does anyone know re nurses?
645802/12/2015, 20:12 - C Castles: I assume they know too, I think Wales 
6459
6460and Scotland are at the same meeting, maybe just haven't filtered it to 
6461
6462you yet
646302/12/2015, 20:15 - A Collins: I don't think we have, but I would 
6464
6465support it.
646602/12/2015, 20:16 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Yes david. We should. Also..could 
6467
6468mention issue of plain time expansion too. Those two points in a nice 
6469
6470letter of support.
647102/12/2015, 20:24 - B Roberts: David - but I like it, it's almost 
6472
6473poetic!
6474
6475Re student nurses - agree that we could support them. Very cynical 
6476
6477timing of that announcement and it was fairly obviously pegged to our 
6478
6479issue in the media - "to bring them in line with trainee (sic) 
6480
6481doctors".
648202/12/2015, 20:46 - J Malawana: Trapped in Liverpool. Train has been 
6483
6484delayed. It's cold :-(
648502/12/2015, 20:48 - ?L Elliott: Watch your scarf the scousers will have 
6486
6487owt! Jokes.
648802/12/2015, 21:10 - A Collins: Probably delayed cos they've nicked the 
6489
6490wheels off the train!
649102/12/2015, 21:10 - B Roberts: Too far north, Johann?!
649202/12/2015, 21:12 - C Castles: Hide your copy of the sun
649302/12/2015, 21:56 - J Malawana: It's so fucking cold
649402/12/2015, 22:01 - M Redman: That's a drastic delay. Go to maccies
649502/12/2015, 22:09 - Z Greaves: Wouldn't have happened on the east coast 
6496
6497mainline
649802/12/2015, 22:13 - C Castles: 2 degrees here at the minute
649902/12/2015, 23:32 - D Tooth: Gosh that's a lot of messages, apologies 
6500
6501for the late post. Am pleased to hear this isn't policy forming. Here 
6502
6503are my thoughts 
6504
6505Some interesting suggestions of opting in to ooh shifts that suit you. 
6506
6507Exactly what happens in GP training. Essentially you can choose to work 
6508
65097-12 mon to fri or sat sun 8-1. This is roughly speaking. Each provider 
6510
6511will have slightly different shifts. In order to be signed off, you 
6512
6513have to have a range of the Saturday. Sunday and weekday shifts, and 
6514
6515you sign up first come first served. No change in rate for shifts, 
6516
6517however, as we do t receive payment for them as they are educational.  
6518
6519But a concept that may be translatable to hospital specialties. 
6520
6521Saturday as premium time. Acceptability of working Saturdays for GP 
6522
6523Trainees Is not just a personal perspective. It would be for GPC to 
6524
6525resolve this issue and the practicalities as outlined below, so we 
6526
6527would have to consult them in the GP specialty group. As I understand I 
6528
6529don't recall that the GP trainee committee has ruled out working 
6530
6531Saturdays. However, there are multiple practical issues that would need 
6532
6533to be overcome. As OOH is purely educational for GP trainees there 
6534
6535would need to be an appropriate training environment for them to work 
6536
6537in, or a GP practice or a gmc approved training environment for ooh. As 
6538
6539trainee we are not qualified to work as Independent contractors and 
6540
6541therefore must have a trainer present. So we will consider Saturday's 
6542
6543but where is the influx of GP trainers ready to be there to train and 
6544
6545monitor us. 
6546
6547Monitoring in practises. As hunt says GP trainees don't work more than 
6548
654940 hours! Many GP trainees are working 11-12 hour days 5 days a week 
6550
6551and then have their ooh on top of that. I have stated before at jdc 
6552
6553that before we discuss hours, we need monitoring of current hours being 
6554
6555worked in general practice before we consider any change. This links to 
6556
6557a comment about GP trainees getting money for free and having a good 
6558
6559work life balance. Neither of which is true for a vast number of GP 
6560
6561trainees
6562
6563Intensity of work. GP trainees are working in a relatively isolated 
6564
6565environment with up to and sometimes in excess of 50 patient contacts a 
6566
6567day, many st1's and st2's find this very jntense. Previously in 
6568
6569negotiations I raised a proposal that GP registrars if not receiving a 
6570
6571banding supplement, could be paid in line with registrars at the end of 
6572
6573their training, in other specialties ie, the equivalent of st6-8. Level 
6574
6575of responsibility also fed into this. Didn't go far and was not 
6576
6577submitted to ddrb evidence but could be something that is reignited
6578
6579GP trainees will not agree to sacrifice the supplement in order to not 
6580
6581work Saturdays as currently those two factors are not linked. 
6582
6583When talking about ooh I feel there may be confusion between qualified 
6584
6585GPs and GP trainees. GP trainees cannot due  to training walk into any 
6586
6587ooh service and man this service. Our indemnity is already through the 
6588
6589roof as we are preparing to be independent contractors. If we were 
6590
6591working this way then indemnity would be even more prohibitive. 
6592
6593The supplement currently has been awarded by the ddrb and as mentioned, 
6594
6595previously was closer to 60%. This has reduced in line with the average 
6596
6597hospital trainees banding and at present stands At 45%. Approx 2-3% 
6598
6599higher than the current average hospital trainee. Ddrb have maintained 
6600
6601this amount, I'm sure we could ask them why. 
6602
6603Doctors choosing  GP due to work life balance and messing up work 
6604
6605patterns. To be fair the work patterns already being worked are a mess, 
6606
6607by what most expect from GP. I suspect as does GPC that this is a huge 
6608
6609problem in recruitment as medical students witness the long working 
6610
6611hours and GP trainees are working in these conditions, and therefore we 
6612
6613have huge retention issues in GP
6614
6615People may struggle with the GP supplement, but it appears as though it 
6616
6617is necessary to maintain recruitment to GP at pretty dismal rates. If 
6618
6619you do away with the supplement or similar then these levels will take 
6620
6621a huge nosedive. The questions is what would happen to recruitment in 
6622
6623general practice without this supplement. This is currently an issue 
6624
6625for multiple agencies including GPC working together in the ten point 
6626
6627plan. I sincerely hope that the sos assurances about GP trainees and 
6628
6629there pay is a safe one, otherwise the ten point plan is down the pan. 
6630
6631I think that is it for now. Look forward to Friday
663203/12/2015, 07:59 - T Crocker-Buque: Very interesting Donna - having 
6633
6634been on JDC since 2007 loads of that I didn't know or hadn't 
6635
6636considered. Much discussion, sharing and exploration required it seems.
663703/12/2015, 08:04 - D Rouse: Thanks Donna. Explains a lot - and 
6638
6639reassures a lot too
664003/12/2015, 11:00 - B Roberts: Way more concise than my explanations, 
6641
6642Donna, but I would maintain that as our supplement is an RRP, our OOH 
6643
6644shifts are technically unpaid...
664503/12/2015, 11:01 - D Tooth: Yes absolutely
664603/12/2015, 11:02 - M Redman: Is mtg in camera tm?
664703/12/2015, 14:20 - A Collins: No its not.
664803/12/2015, 14:20 - A Collins: We've invited an observer.
664903/12/2015, 14:21 - A Collins: Also, Johann...negs team picked yet?
665003/12/2015, 14:30 - M Redman: Awks Q guys - after Adam's - which of our 
6651
6652exec teleconfs are legit to put honoraria forms in for...?
665303/12/2015, 14:32 - A Borbora: I'm planning on all of them as they were 
6654
6655exec meetings
665603/12/2015, 14:33 - A Collins: Yep, reverse of the form states exec 
6657
6658meetings, and these were such. I concur with my boss
665903/12/2015, 14:34 - Z Greaves: My week has rolled into one was it thu, 
6660
6661sun and mon we had them?
666203/12/2015, 14:35 - A Borbora: My understanding is that in camera is a 
6663
6664decision taken at the meeting after a vote. However I'm a big standing 
6665
6666orders person. I'm sure someone who is will correct me.
666703/12/2015, 14:36 - A Borbora: So in my experience if such a vote 
6668
6669passes observers are asked to leave and then can come back after that 
6670
6671section has been taken.
667203/12/2015, 14:36 - Z Greaves: That's correct - the chair could 
6673
6674announce in advance that he wishes to hold in camera but would still 
6675
6676have to be voted on.  
6677
6678But even if it is unanticipated any individual could request that we 
6679
6680consider holding any part of the agenda in camera
668103/12/2015, 14:41 - A Borbora: Thanks, Zoe.
668203/12/2015, 14:42 - M Redman: Yeah thanks Aaron&Zoe - I meant more 
6683
6684about plans if it was going to be in camera... With the negs paper to 
6685
6686be discussed
668703/12/2015, 15:04 - C Castles: Btw, I think meetings were last thur, 
6688
6689Fri, sun and mon. Or have I added one in?
669003/12/2015, 15:15 - D Tooth: No that sounds right  Conan
669103/12/2015, 15:45 - A Collins: And Friday
669203/12/2015, 15:48 - A Collins: Yes sorry, you're right about camera, 
6693
6694but Johann has said to sappers he doesn't intend to hold in camera I 
6695
6696think and has suggested he attend as a guest if he'd like to.
669703/12/2015, 16:33 - K Mohan: Isn't he a visitor through the scheme 
6698
6699rather than an observer?
670003/12/2015, 16:33 - K Mohan: Not that I'd makes much difference
670103/12/2015, 16:33 - K Mohan: It
670203/12/2015, 16:33 - A Collins: I don't know what the difference is but 
6703
6704yes he's through the scheme.
670503/12/2015, 17:04 - A Collins: Come on then, who's negotiating?
670603/12/2015, 17:04 - A Collins: (I'll go first, I'm not!)
670703/12/2015, 17:05 - C Castles: I'm not
670803/12/2015, 17:05 - C Bell: I'm not ;)
670903/12/2015, 17:05 - A Yassaee: Nope.
671003/12/2015, 17:05 - C Castles: Maybe we can work it out by 
6711
6712elimination...
671303/12/2015, 17:09 - A Collier Tim Yates isn't. Adam Moreton isn't.
671403/12/2015, 17:09 - A Collier Aaron is.
671503/12/2015, 17:10 - A Collier So two left to work out.
671603/12/2015, 17:10 - Z Greaves: Do we know who applied?
671703/12/2015, 17:10 - A Collier Yes, informally I do but probably best 
6718
6719not to publicise it.
672003/12/2015, 17:12 - C Castles: Two?
672103/12/2015, 17:13 - C Castles: Are you on Andrew?
672203/12/2015, 17:13 - D Tooth: Yes surely it's 3
672303/12/2015, 17:13 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Not me ...didnt apply in the 
6724
6725end...thank god!
672603/12/2015, 17:14 - Z Greaves: Ditto boss would never have spoken to me 
6727
6728again
672903/12/2015, 17:23 - A Collier I didn't stand.
673003/12/2015, 17:23 - A Collier I'm yesterday man
673103/12/2015, 17:24 - C Castles: Ahh
673203/12/2015, 17:25 - T Crocker-Buque: Kitty - glutton for punishment
673303/12/2015, 17:28 - A Collier Kitty didn't stand...I don't think?
673403/12/2015, 17:28 - C Castles: Kitty couldn't stand she said
673503/12/2015, 17:28 - A Collins: I mean... Poor girl works for DH
673603/12/2015, 17:28 - K Mohan: Didn't stand. I could have but didn't. 
6737
6738"Yesterday's girl".
673903/12/2015, 17:28 - K Mohan: I DO NOT WORK FOR DH!!
674003/12/2015, 17:29 - C Castles: Haha
674103/12/2015, 17:29 - A Collier Spy!!!!
674203/12/2015, 17:29 - A Collins: Are you not seconded there?
674303/12/2015, 17:29 - A Collins: Ok I know you don't work for them... But 
6744
6745enough to be an agent.
674603/12/2015, 17:29 - K Mohan: Seriously guys. That's not funny.
674703/12/2015, 17:29 - A Collins: The signs are there... She's started 
6748
6749changing her appearance.
675003/12/2015, 17:30 - A Collins: She's going to lay them open from the 
6751
6752inside for us!
675303/12/2015, 17:30 - A Collins: (I was actually being serious, I thought 
6754
6755you said you sort of in some way work in the building or something?)
675603/12/2015, 17:31 - K Mohan: I am seconded there unofficially. I don't 
6757
6758work there.
675903/12/2015, 17:31 - A Collins: Ok ok.
676003/12/2015, 17:31 - K Mohan: All our work buildings are DH buildings
676103/12/2015, 17:31 - C Castles: ....
676203/12/2015, 17:31 - A Collins: Do you have the access required to lay 
6763
6764open their soft underbelly or not?
676503/12/2015, 17:31 - C Castles: The difference is.....
676603/12/2015, 17:31 - C Castles: You do their work, but don't get paid?
676703/12/2015, 17:31 - K Mohan: The difference is that if I worked there 
6768
6769I'd have to resign from everything to do with the BMA.
677003/12/2015, 17:31 - A Collins: This is beginning to sound a lot like 
6771
6772when cia agents are "military attachés"
677303/12/2015, 17:31 - K Mohan: Honestly.
677403/12/2015, 17:32 - A Collins: Well that would suck. Don't do that.
677503/12/2015, 17:32 - K Mohan: That's why I'm asking to not joke.
677603/12/2015, 17:33 - K Mohan: And I only agreed to it once I'd decided 
6777
6778not to stand in any case so that's not why I did not stand for negs.
677903/12/2015, 17:37 - K Mohan: So who got on negs? Aaron... And who else? 
6780
6781Or our crack team just Aaron?
678203/12/2015, 17:37 - L J Davis: & Johann, obvs.
678303/12/2015, 17:37 - C Castles: I think it's just Aaron
678403/12/2015, 17:38 - C Castles: There were some gp trainees applied, 
6785
6786maybe one or more of them got it
678703/12/2015, 17:38 - K Mohan: Ellen?
678803/12/2015, 17:43 - ?L Elliott: I hear some people haven't heard yet... 
6789
6790(I didn't apply)
679103/12/2015, 18:34 - B Roberts: Not me!
679203/12/2015, 19:22 - J Malawana: The negs team will be drawn from 
6793
6794Aaron
6795Bea
6796Darshan
6797Ellen
6798Jeeves
6799Shehzad
6800
6801There will be three teams I will be leading all of them. One will do 
6802
6803the headline negs, one will do the detailed work on agreeing what comes 
6804
6805out of the headline group. The final group will be dealing with hee to 
6806
6807get the environmental factors put into the contract.
680803/12/2015, 19:22 - J Malawana: Sorry. Am in the north Thames meeting.
680903/12/2015, 19:23 - J Malawana: I can take you all through the details 
6810
6811this evening but it maybe relatively late. Or I can meet you all at 9am 
6812
6813tomorrow morning.
681403/12/2015, 19:24 - Z Greaves: There'll need to be Tc as trains already 
6815
6816booked
681703/12/2015, 19:24 - J Malawana: Sorry Zoe.
681803/12/2015, 19:26 - J Malawana: The team was selected based on a skills 
6819
6820based assessment by a professional negotiator. He is also the one that 
6821
6822is working on the consultant contract.
682303/12/2015, 19:27 - A Collier Who is Shehzad?
682403/12/2015, 19:27 - D Tooth: He is a GP trainee
682503/12/2015, 19:27 - Z Greaves: And what specialty? Also bea?
682603/12/2015, 19:27 - B Roberts: And ex-economist.
682703/12/2015, 19:27 - A Collier Ah ha, thank you Donna
682803/12/2015, 19:28 - Z Greaves: Sounds good
682903/12/2015, 19:28 - D Tooth: Stood for chair of the subcommittee and 
6830
6831Bea is the negs lead from GP trainees
683203/12/2015, 19:28 - A Collier Bea had been on JDC for two years, she's 
6833
6834a GP trainee
683503/12/2015, 19:29 - A Collier Just an observation, 3 x GP trainees
683603/12/2015, 19:30 - C Sheridan: Quite a few of us at nrjdc at 9 in the 
6837
6838morning too yohann
683903/12/2015, 19:30 - A Collins: And a lot of people who are going to 
6840
6841need a lot of reading in.
684203/12/2015, 19:30 - C Castles: Johann has a j Chris
684303/12/2015, 19:32 - C Castles: When did we decide on three teams? I'm 
6844
6845rather confused
684603/12/2015, 19:35 - C Sheridan: Sorry. Its my tired brain. I can 
6847
6848confirm i knew that (sorry Johann)
684903/12/2015, 19:36 - M Redman: I'm confused...
685003/12/2015, 19:40 - J Malawana: This was based on the skills testing of 
6851
6852the professional negotiator.
685303/12/2015, 19:40 - J Malawana: It's not technically three teams. It's 
6854
6855because we want to keep the pressure on the government within timing to 
6856
6857know we are getting far. So we are splitting the work load up so we 
6858
6859don't have everyone on their side. ie all the HEE stuff will be put 
6860
6861into one area.
686203/12/2015, 19:42 - C Castles: Who made this decision?
686303/12/2015, 19:43 - J Malawana: It was agreed between me and the 
6864
6865otherside to ensure our strike mandate doesn't run out.
686603/12/2015, 19:43 - J Malawana: My focus was to try and get various 
6867
6868things pinned down before our mandate runs out.
686903/12/2015, 19:44 - C Sheridan: What methodology ended up being used? 
6870
6871Was it Belbin?
687203/12/2015, 19:55 - C Castles: Fair enough. I just feel like I am/exec 
6873
6874are only finding out about a lot of decisions after they have been 
6875
6876made. Obviously that's your prerogative, but it makes it harder for me 
6877
6878to defend then when I'm questioned
687903/12/2015, 20:22 - A Collier I have to say the other side use separate 
6880
6881groups to try to sow division and pick people off, we had to keep close 
6882
6883tabs on the rota working group and gp subgroup
688403/12/2015, 20:23 - A Collier I see the strike mandate expiry date (or 
6885
6886days in the run up to it) as a weigh point/check point. There is a 
6887
6888infinitesimally small chance of the contract being sorted by Jan. If 
6889
6890inadequate progress in our favour we will have to relaunch the IA quick 
6891
6892sharp.
689303/12/2015, 20:25 - A Collier And just because I haven't mentioned it 
6894
6895yet tonight I think the non-resident issue needs urgent attention, I 
6896
6897say that as the negs team doesn't have a an obvious non-resident 
6898
6899champion.
690003/12/2015, 20:27 - C Castles: I see Jan 13th as a deadline to see if 
6901
6902progress can happen at all. Its like a mini HoT between now and then, 
6903
6904to see if actual negotiations can take place after Jan. Until then, 
6905
6906it's negs purely to avoid IA
690703/12/2015, 20:27 - A Collier I've established between 16-20% of 
6908
6909trainees work non-resident rotas.
691003/12/2015, 20:28 - A Collier And though it's a poor proxy measure it's 
6911
6912fair to say far <20% of or time has been spent on this issue.
691303/12/2015, 20:28 - C Sheridan: I always get the image that we're 
6914
6915fighting some sort of evil ghosts when you call them "the other side" 
6916
6917Andrew! I think we should call the new negs team the "Ghostbusters". 
6918
6919Also i think you should put that on your business card: Dr Andrew 
6920
6921Collier non resident champion! Even if you'll be "non resident" at the 
6922
6923negs now
692403/12/2015, 20:29 - A Collier Love you too Chris
692503/12/2015, 20:43 - D Tooth: Johann do the negs team know who they are? 
6926
6927Can we congratulate them and also can I share this with the GP trainees 
6928
6929subcommittee?
693003/12/2015, 20:48 - A Borbora: "Do the negs team know who they are?" 
6931
6932Isn't that a question for a psychiatrist. Andrew, Chris?
693303/12/2015, 20:53 - C Sheridan: Yes. Very meta. Maybe we should rename 
6934
6935the team "existential crisis". They sound like a bitchin' rock band
693603/12/2015, 20:56 - D Tooth: As in have they been informed of their 
6937
6938appointment to the team
693903/12/2015, 21:06 - M Redman: I'm a psychiatrist as of today now too 
6940
6941??... pick me... me meeee
694203/12/2015, 21:06 - M Redman: This is the closest I'll ever get to 
6943
6944being as cool as Andrew Collier...
694503/12/2015, 22:04 - J Malawana: Not just assurance but to know the 
6946
6947negotiations are going somewhere.
694803/12/2015, 22:15 - D Tooth: Have you all been invited to join the 
6949
6950junior doctors discussion forum? I think they are trying to create a 
6951
6952more secure group after journalists getting people like Collins in 
6953
6954trouble
695503/12/2015, 22:16 - A Collins: So... Am I invited?
695603/12/2015, 22:19 - C Castles: No
695703/12/2015, 22:24 - D Tooth: I can invite you if you like!!
695803/12/2015, 22:25 - A Collins: I like being in trouble. Its so familiar 
6959
6960:)
696103/12/2015, 22:25 - A Collins: (yes please)
696203/12/2015, 22:27 - D Tooth: There are a couple of familiar faces
696303/12/2015, 22:27 - A Collins: Johann is typing... *holds breath*
696403/12/2015, 22:28 - D Tooth: Please not a question. I have a headache 
6965
6966and am about to go to sleep. Oh and definitely not a call.
696703/12/2015, 22:28 - D Tooth: I think half of the team and e etc may be 
6968
6969in the Pullman
697003/12/2015, 22:28 - A Collins: If you've got a question you're as well 
6971
6972to just come to the Pullman...
697303/12/2015, 22:28 - J Malawana: Right who wants an explanation briefly 
6974
6975tonight of how the negs team will work? I am on the train, so I can 
6976
6977only start at 11.15pm. Realise it's a shit time. Otherwise can do 
6978
6979tomorrow as part of JDC? I don't mind. It maybe only 20mins as 
6980
6981knackered and not seen Sarah in three days. But say if need an update 
6982
6983before meeting.
698403/12/2015, 22:29 - J Malawana: Lol. Ok just as Donna said no calls :-)
698503/12/2015, 22:29 - A Collins: Let's just do it as part of JDC Johann.
698603/12/2015, 22:29 - D Tooth: For the sake of slew I can probably wait 
6987
6988unless it's important to have before tomorrow?
698903/12/2015, 22:29 - A Sami: Have a rest, Johann. Tomorrrow is a long 
6990
6991intense day
699203/12/2015, 22:29 - A Collins: Unless the Pullman bar has Scopia?
699303/12/2015, 22:29 - Z Greaves: Early train so I'm off to bed and happy 
6994
6995to wait till morning
699603/12/2015, 22:30 - D Tooth: Sorry Johann didn't mean to be mean! If 
6997
6998you want a call then say
699903/12/2015, 22:31 - J Malawana: Basically it was a functional decision 
7000
7001that I just need to try and get progress for the ballot mandate. So 
7002
7003need just slightly more people. But I will be providing continuity to 
7004
7005the whole thing and so there isn't slippage and I will keep you fully 
7006
7007updated.
700803/12/2015, 22:32 - J Malawana: There is a high risk we will take some 
7009
7010form of IA on the 12th January. For about 15mins even. Just to activate 
7011
7012the final four weeks of the mandate and keep the pressure up.
701303/12/2015, 22:33 - A Collins: Interesting.
701403/12/2015, 22:33 - A Collins: That will be played out as very cynical 
7015
7016in the media and we will need an excellent comms strategy.
701703/12/2015, 22:34 - A Collins: Which we will then need to implement... 
7018
7019Unlike normal ;)
702003/12/2015, 22:52 - J Malawana: Not sure whether will pull it off but 
7021
7022wiill try
702304/12/2015, 07:04 - L J Davis: Problem is that even 15mins = loss of a 
7024
7025day of pay in many trusts...
702604/12/2015, 07:23 - Z Greaves: We looked at this during pensions 
7027
7028dispute where only partial duties were completed and I'm pretty sure we 
7029
7030came to the conclusion that not paying you for work done constituted 
7031
7032unfair deduction of wages and could be legally challenged - faced with 
7033
7034the suggestion of that many trusts folded
703504/12/2015, 07:24 - J Malawana: Our lawyer seems it can be relatively 
7036
7037easily done. Let's see where this goes and get it worked up during the 
7038
7039month.
704004/12/2015, 08:12 - J Malawana: Will be in at 9ish. The national and 
7041
7042regional chairs are meeting right?
704304/12/2015, 08:13 - J Malawana: Anyone know where and when?
704404/12/2015, 08:13 - B Roberts: Dickens, 9am.
704504/12/2015, 08:17 - J Malawana: Am I supposed to go to that?
704604/12/2015, 08:18 - B Roberts: Ha ha, I don't know! Perhaps Amjad 
7047
7048Meta-chair can help...
704904/12/2015, 08:19 - E McCourt: No I don't think so.
705004/12/2015, 08:20 - A Borbora: No you don't have to go to that.
705104/12/2015, 08:20 - C Bell: Could someone please forward me the papers 
7052
7053for today?
705404/12/2015, 08:20 - J Malawana: Ok. Cool.
705504/12/2015, 08:21 - C Bell: Cb561@cam.ac.uk
705604/12/2015, 08:21 - C Bell: For some reason I've been left out of the 
7057
7058loop
705904/12/2015, 08:21 - J Malawana: Don't the papers go to the listserver?
706004/12/2015, 08:21 - D Rouse: Awww chaZz
706104/12/2015, 08:21 - M Redman: Done Charlie
706204/12/2015, 08:21 - J Malawana: I genuinely don't know n
706304/12/2015, 08:21 - C Bell: Hmm dunno
706404/12/2015, 08:22 - C Bell: Anyway merci
706504/12/2015, 08:23 - M Redman: They did go to jdc-l... Maybe you've 
7066
7067diverted our lovely Sam to your spam
706804/12/2015, 08:23 - C Bell: Oh nooooo
706904/12/2015, 08:24 - M Redman: Crap... On E&T we discussed about taking 
7070
7071secretariat out tonight... I forgot... Have we even got them cards.
707204/12/2015, 08:25 - M Redman: If not I'll buy at station but errr who 
7073
7074do we need them for again? they deserve one each. Will be a mission but 
7075
7076doable.
707704/12/2015, 08:26 - K Mohan: You should go to the chairs thing, Johann/
707804/12/2015, 08:28 - A Sami: Johann, I welcome your attendance to the 
7079
7080NRJDC meeting this morning, if you can make it. Amjad
708104/12/2015, 08:28 - K Mohan: By the way all, it was actually freezing 
7082
7083in the council chamber yesterday.
708404/12/2015, 08:30 - E McCourt: It's freezing on the train. Icicle-
7085
7086ellen.
708704/12/2015, 08:39 - L J Davis: It's the norf innit?
708804/12/2015, 08:39 - L J Davis: But cold on my train too...
708904/12/2015, 08:43 - A Collins: they're playing Christmas music in the 
7090
7091Pullman.
709204/12/2015, 08:43 - A Collins: ??
709304/12/2015, 08:43 - E McCourt: Umm it's December, it's totally allowed.
709404/12/2015, 08:44 - E McCourt: (I presume it's because of these 
7095
7096conversations that people mute the chat...)
709704/12/2015, 08:47 - Z Greaves: As long as it's after bonfire night 
7098
7099Christmas is allowed - once it's December Christmas is mandated!
710004/12/2015, 08:55 - D Rouse: Did we vote on that mandate
710104/12/2015, 08:55 - A Collins: Was it a good return rate?
710204/12/2015, 08:55 - E McCourt: Santa has a veto on any no votes
710304/12/2015, 08:55 - J Malawana: Is exec around after JDC for a drink? 
7104
7105Will ask the secretariat
710604/12/2015, 08:56 - Z Greaves: Sounds good :)
710704/12/2015, 08:56 - M Redman: I've have to disappear at 5 ??
710804/12/2015, 08:56 - M Redman: But you all def should
710904/12/2015, 08:56 - A Collins: Always around for a drunk ??
711004/12/2015, 08:56 - A Collins: (er, or a drink...)
711104/12/2015, 08:56 - Z Greaves: Lol it was your idea!
711204/12/2015, 08:57 - Z Greaves: My trains at 7 so can do drinks but a 
7113
7114meal might be pushing it
711504/12/2015, 09:00 - L Boyle: I'll have to go back up early as I'm on 
7116
7117the weekend
711804/12/2015, 09:01 - J Malawana: Considering some of the events of the 
7119
7120last couple of months and the decisions we have had to make I think 
7121
7122it's a testament to every single one of us that we are still working so 
7123
7124well together. Am happy. Knackered.
712504/12/2015, 09:01 - L J Davis: Don't get too happy. You haven't chaired 
7126
7127Jdc yet ??
712804/12/2015, 09:02 - A Collins: Someone get that man a coffee and a 
7129
7130comfy seat between now and jdc!
713104/12/2015, 09:06 - K Mohan: I am as long as Andrew R can be a 
7132
7133temporary member of exec and join us. :)
713404/12/2015, 09:08 - K Mohan: Regarding JDC... "Bring it". 
7135
7136I'm so funny. :)
713704/12/2015, 09:08 - L J Davis: Wasn't that exec, kitty?
713804/12/2015, 09:08 - J Malawana: JDC is fine. Am sure they will give me 
7139
7140a hard time. But it's their job. It's actually better they do. Keep me 
7141
7142and us on our toes.
714304/12/2015, 09:10 - M Redman: THE ANDREW ROLAND
714404/12/2015, 09:10 - K Mohan: The words "Bring" and "it" are always 
7145
7146applicable whenever the BMA is concerned. 
7147
7148Absolutely agree with Johann. We need to be able to explain and account 
7149
7150for our decisions and that's jdc's job to keep us to account.
715104/12/2015, 09:11 - K Mohan: ERM YES, THE MELODY.
715204/12/2015, 09:11 - L J Davis: ?? ANDREW
715304/12/2015, 09:11 - E McCourt: Didn't exec get the memo... Sleeping is 
7154
7155cheating...
715604/12/2015, 09:11 - L J Davis: NO IDEA WHY IN CAPITALS, tho
715704/12/2015, 09:12 - E McCourt: THE QUIET COACH SAYS SHUSH WITH THE 
7158
7159SHOUTING...
716004/12/2015, 09:13 - K Mohan: I think Andrew (R) is on the list of 
7161
7162people Melody wants to be...
716304/12/2015, 09:13 - K Mohan: We all aspire to be on that list...
716404/12/2015, 09:13 - L J Davis: She's never like LJD.
716504/12/2015, 09:13 - M Redman: ?? HE'S SO COOL. CAPS NEEDED. I'll avoid 
7166
7167any further spam about him but when he RTed me at ARM I nearly peed.
716804/12/2015, 09:13 - A Collier I hope that ?? refers to me LJD
716904/12/2015, 09:13 - A Collier ?!?!
717004/12/2015, 09:13 - L J Davis: Maybe she doesn't want to be me (sob)
717104/12/2015, 09:13 - K Mohan: I actually just LOLed.
717204/12/2015, 09:15 - A Collins: Such a pity melo has to go before 
7173
7174drinks...
717504/12/2015, 09:17 - L J Davis: Of course it does. ??????
717604/12/2015, 09:17 - L J Davis: ??????
717704/12/2015, 09:19 - D Tooth: Are we having mulled wine and mince pies 
7178
7179this year? That is the tradition. I can do a quick one but then off to 
7180
7181a birthday date
718204/12/2015, 09:20 - J Malawana: God. No idea
718304/12/2015, 09:20 - E McCourt: Mmmmm mulled wine.
718404/12/2015, 09:20 - D Tooth: Johann! This will be your biggest failure 
7185
7186as chair, if we are not
718704/12/2015, 09:20 - A Collins: What you mean is obviously :Good Idea
718804/12/2015, 09:20 - J Malawana: Lol
718904/12/2015, 09:21 - D Tooth: It's normally in the princes room that 
7190
7191spooky echoy one
719204/12/2015, 09:21 - A Collins: Its ok, I'm SURE Johann just made a typo 
7193
7194??????
719504/12/2015, 09:21 - L J Davis: We could crash the masc drinks? Bet 
7196
7197they're having mulled wine
719804/12/2015, 09:21 - Z Greaves: No what you mean is: yes of course - 
7199
7200already sorted :)
720104/12/2015, 09:21 - E McCourt: It's my evening now post nights. Can I 
7202
7203have wine before JDC?
720404/12/2015, 09:21 - Z Greaves: Only if  you share
720504/12/2015, 09:21 - A Collins: I think that's legit.
720604/12/2015, 09:22 - A Collins: We all had wine in our evening before 
7207
7208jdc ??
720904/12/2015, 09:22 - ?L Elliott: Aaron and I have to leave a tad early 
7210
7211to get back to Lpool so unforch can not join this eve
721204/12/2015, 09:22 - D Tooth: It should be an AOB at the beginning of 
7213
7214the meeting to check with staff that it is organised
721504/12/2015, 09:23 - Z Greaves: Suspension. Of. Standing. Orders.
721604/12/2015, 09:23 - A Collins: I'm happy to call for a suspension of 
7217
7218standing orders to allow that to be considered
721904/12/2015, 09:23 - A Collier Collins...don't.
722004/12/2015, 09:24 - A Collins: Last time you told me not to do 
7221
7222something... 
7223
7224In fact that is a theme, both Adams went for negs!
722504/12/2015, 09:25 - K Mohan: Didn't we all miss the mulled wine and 
7226
7227mince pies last year as JDC overran. Basically the BMA owes us double. 
7228
7229Sort it out, Yoyo.
723004/12/2015, 09:25 - A Collins: Defs suspending standing orders now. 
7231
7232Sorry Andrew
723304/12/2015, 09:25 - K Mohan: And don't talk too much so we don't miss 
7234
7235out again.
723604/12/2015, 09:25 - A Collier Yes I remember my advice well "Don't post 
7237
7238to facebook Adam"
723904/12/2015, 09:26 - Z Greaves: Yoyo lol ??
724004/12/2015, 09:26 - K Mohan: JDC starts at 1015 right?
724104/12/2015, 09:26 - E McCourt: Oui
724204/12/2015, 09:26 - K Mohan: Doesn't everyone call him that?!? :))
724304/12/2015, 09:26 - A Collins: No I prefer JoHulk
724404/12/2015, 09:27 - K Mohan: Good. Didn't want to have an "Andrew at 
7245
7246Council" experience.
724704/12/2015, 09:28 - A Collins: If I don't post on fb how will my 
7248
7249message reach my flock?
725004/12/2015, 09:29 - Z Greaves: Train gets in at 10.05 ... actually 
7251
7252suffering anxiety over whether my seat will have been taken ?? ... life 
7253
7254was so much simpler when you could just assume things always started at 
7255
725610.30
725704/12/2015, 10:28 - C Bell: I can't access the room, the number is 
7258
7259wrong?
726004/12/2015, 10:29 - D Rouse: Yo yo lol
726104/12/2015, 10:29 - M Redman: Is that one wrong?
726204/12/2015, 10:29 - M Redman: <Media omitted>
726304/12/2015, 10:31 - C Bell: Yup
726404/12/2015, 10:38 - A Collins: Petition for mic repairs in Council 
7265
7266Chamber?
726704/12/2015, 10:39 - D Rouse: Yes
726804/12/2015, 10:42 - M Redman: Hmm email Dan?
726904/12/2015, 10:57 - M Redman: This is why YoYo couldn't cope in norf... 
7270
7271He needs coat and scarf where the northerners are only wearing one 
7272
7273layer...
727404/12/2015, 10:58 - A Collins: Lol, Melo in a sleeveless top while 
7275
7276JoHulk wraps up?
727704/12/2015, 10:58 - D Tooth: I think he has got used to leaving rooms 
7278
7279very quickly in talks and therefore doesn't bother to take his coat etc 
7280
7281off. So he's ready to leave
728204/12/2015, 11:00 - Z Greaves: Andrew's letting #teamcoldnorth down sat 
7283
7284at the back with his coat on
728504/12/2015, 11:01 - A Collier But I've taken off my trousers
728604/12/2015, 11:01 - B Roberts: Yoyo, I love it! I am obviously 
7287
7288listening to every word Yoyo is saying rather than posting here...
728904/12/2015, 11:04 - C Castles: Haha
729004/12/2015, 11:06 - E McCourt: So your all either naked or wearing your 
7291
7292entire wardrobe... Interesting...
729304/12/2015, 11:06 - E McCourt: *youre
729404/12/2015, 11:07 - A Collins: Or both...
729504/12/2015, 11:07 - C Castles: I feel I should point out the 
7296
7297temperature here is rather present, and I am naked from the elbow down
729804/12/2015, 11:07 - A Collins: As opposed to when the temperature is 
7299
7300absent?
730104/12/2015, 11:08 - C Castles: Haha , pleasant
730204/12/2015, 11:08 - C Castles: My text was incompetent
730304/12/2015, 11:08 - Z Greaves: Where are you Ellen?
730404/12/2015, 11:09 - E McCourt: Between clothes.
730504/12/2015, 11:09 - Z Greaves: Lol
730604/12/2015, 11:09 - E McCourt: Just de-scrubs-ing and heading upstairs.
730704/12/2015, 11:09 - D Rouse: Lol
730804/12/2015, 11:09 - D Rouse: Awwww Ellen get your arise up here
730904/12/2015, 11:10 - A Collins: Yes, don't get your "be seated" up here 
7310
7311whatever you do...
731204/12/2015, 11:13 - C Sheridan: Youve got to love technology. We're all 
7313
7314in a meeting together and are chatting on Whatsapp. I think we should 
7315
7316suspend WhatsApp action to allow for meaningful JDCing - but only if 
7317
7318our precondition of mince pies is met
731904/12/2015, 11:14 - D Tooth: I have some bad news! The mince pies and 
7320
7321mulled wine precondition is NOT being met. I'm out
732204/12/2015, 11:14 - Z Greaves: You meant mince pies and mulled wine, 
7323
7324yes?
732504/12/2015, 11:14 - L J Davis: I'm finding it slightly surreal to be 
7326
7327this side of the room...
732804/12/2015, 11:15 - C Sheridan: A scottish person forgetting the 
7329
7330alcohol. Letting the stereotype down there...
733104/12/2015, 11:15 - A Collins: It's slightly surreal you're in the 
7332
7333room!  I feel almost star struck, its good to see you :)
733404/12/2015, 11:15 - A Collins: Chris is used to working in environments 
7335
7336he's not allowed to mention alcohol... we'll let him off
733704/12/2015, 11:17 - A Borbora: Generally it isn't procedure to be 
7338
7339having chats or posting on list servers during meetings so could I 
7340
7341suggest we stop?
734204/12/2015, 11:18 - A Collins: I think you're suggesting avoiding 
7343
7344whatsapp for the sake of avoiding whatsapp
734504/12/2015, 11:32 - M Redman: Sorry - fair point!
734604/12/2015, 11:33 - J Malawana: It's so cold
734704/12/2015, 11:34 - L J Davis: I'm listening... It's bloody cold where 
7348
7349am...
735004/12/2015, 11:35 - C Castles: I think you all need your thyroids 
7351
7352checked
735304/12/2015, 11:35 - A Collins: I think they sit under the A/C
735404/12/2015, 11:36 - C Castles: Ahhh
735504/12/2015, 11:36 - C Castles: It makes sense now
735604/12/2015, 11:46 - C Castles: What about IA that everyone leaves on 
7357
7358time, or takes their break - things should be covered ok, and it draws 
7359
7360attention to the fact that we don't get breaks /leave on time
736104/12/2015, 11:47 - C Sheridan: Work to rule type thing?
736204/12/2015, 11:47 - C Castles: Only if some sort of bridging is 
7363
7364absolutely necessary
736504/12/2015, 11:47 - C Castles: Yeah, basically
736604/12/2015, 11:48 - A Collins: I feel like if we bring up work to rule 
7367
7368we're going to rattle the ghost of xmas past
736904/12/2015, 11:49 - A Borbora: Please this isn't the time for this 
7370
7371discussion
737204/12/2015, 12:27 - Z Greaves: Yannis there was definitely agreement 
7373
7374not to do that!
737504/12/2015, 12:31 - A Collins: I agree, but also I think it is 
7376
7377important we are accountable to Exec, and I support transparency where 
7378
7379it is productive. Whilst I agree with the importance of us presenting a 
7380
7381united front, I don't think we can use it as a blanket gag order.
738204/12/2015, 12:31 - K Mohan: What's the point I arguing this at the 
7383
7384moment, guys? Can we stop messaging and engage with the discussion.
738504/12/2015, 13:07 - A Collier <Media omitted>
738604/12/2015, 13:07 - A Collier I'm assuming this maybe lunch today?
738704/12/2015, 13:08 - D Tooth: No no lunch and no mince pies or mulled 
7388
7389wine
739004/12/2015, 13:09 - Z Greaves: ??
739104/12/2015, 13:11 - D Rouse: Who doesn't love a meaty slab
739204/12/2015, 13:11 - D Rouse: Lol
739304/12/2015, 13:11 - D Rouse: Andrew?
739404/12/2015, 13:11 - A Collier Yes I here yours are usually dubious.
739504/12/2015, 13:51 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Exec. I want to make one thing 
7396
7397clear in response to Zoe's msg. When i said that i would be silent i 
7398
7399clearly meant that i would be public facingly silent on my view of the 
7400
7401decision we made on monday. I have for example posted no messages on 
7402
7403facebook etc on this issue. How can i be silent on JDC? and for how 
7404
7405long? Indefinitely? Ultimately i have been elected TO exec FROM JDC. 
7406
7407Exec are organically chosen from JDC so whilst i fully agree in 
7408
7409following the 'line' as much as possible publicly facing there is NO 
7410
7411justification for exec members to behave as a separate entity to JDC on 
7412
7413the days when we meet as a JDC.
741404/12/2015, 14:53 - A Collins: Conan has been learning by doing on the 
7415
7416whole fatigue issue today...
741704/12/2015, 14:54 - E McCourt: zzzz
741804/12/2015, 14:55 - C Castles: I've been tired since August 25th 2013
741904/12/2015, 15:19 - A Collier The truth about the reorganisation is 
7420
7421that under
7422 the false guise of guiding and aiding a defuse and nebulous "new 
7423
7424democracy" the staff will act on our behalf and make all the decisions.
742504/12/2015, 15:20 - A Collins: The meeting I snuck into in Edinburgh 
7426
7427(having been tipped off by Andrew Mowat posting on FB that he was in 
7428
7429Edinburgh) was very oddly attended as I have just said. I  think their 
7430
7431attempts to "recruit" less active people will result in more people who 
7432
7433sign off on staff decisions, which will then strengthen their position.
7434A difficult conversation to have without damaging our relationship with 
7435
7436staff here.
743704/12/2015, 18:40 - J Malawana: I think the fault lies with everyone at 
7438
7439the top of this organisation. We suffer from a lack of clear leadership 
7440
7441and a clear vision about what a membership organisation should be 
7442
7443about.
744404/12/2015, 18:41 - J Malawana: Include all of us in that. We have 
7445
7446allowed for this to happen. I am intending on getting to end of this 
7447
7448current problem and then let's see whether what can be done with that 
7449
7450issue.
745104/12/2015, 18:41 - A Collins: One thing at a time eh? Something to 
7452
7453park in the back of our minds.
745404/12/2015, 18:42 - J Malawana: If juniors can take on a seceretary of 
7455
7456state I don't see why a handful of people playing at politics can't be 
7457
7458sorted out.
745904/12/2015, 18:42 - J Malawana: Anyway. It was a lovely bit of naval 
7460
7461gazing.
746204/12/2015, 18:43 - J Malawana: I did wonder whether I should have just 
7463
7464aimed for a 2.45pm finish which was what was heading to.  But then 
7465
7466everyone seemed so keen on a little fluff gathering.
746704/12/2015, 18:43 - J Malawana: 15.59 :-)
746804/12/2015, 18:44 - A Collins: If it's before 4 it's a victory!
746904/12/2015, 18:44 - J Malawana: Lol
747004/12/2015, 18:47 - J Malawana: Just to also address Yannis' message 
7471
7472above. I do not at all feel you needed to be silent Yannis. Some bits 
7473
7474of the info you used deserved context but that's part of arguing the 
7475
7476point and so I didn't object to that. I made the point I felt I 
7477
7478absolutely had to clarify. How I did that was perhaps not as guarded as 
7479
7480it should have been and so Tims comments were fair.
748104/12/2015, 18:47 - J Malawana: Anyway i hope we can draw a line under 
7482
7483that as we have a job and a half in front of us. And we are going to 
7484
7485have a lot more very very difficult decisions and discussions ahead.
748604/12/2015, 18:48 - A Sami: Big man ??
748704/12/2015, 18:51 - D Tooth: I am still disappointed about no mulled 
7488
7489wine. Not sure I can forgive that Johann
749004/12/2015, 18:52 - J Malawana: We are likely to have one more meeting 
7491
7492technically before Christmas!
749304/12/2015, 18:52 - A Sami: Exec or JDC, Johann?
749404/12/2015, 18:53 - J Malawana: Exec
749504/12/2015, 18:53 - J Malawana: Not sure if will be in person.
749604/12/2015, 18:53 - J Malawana: Will need to see on Monday.
749704/12/2015, 18:53 - J Malawana: 23rd December.
749804/12/2015, 18:53 - A Collier On the issue of internal politics and the 
7499
7500stifling of members will this is a longstanding issue. I'm not 
7501
7502partially interested in where any fault lies but these latest moves 
7503
7504have been a long time coming and people haven't tackled the issue as 
7505
7506they've been caught up in their own petty turf wars and niche issues. 
7507
7508Some of the well intentioned new initiatives risk being hijacked. In 
7509
7510the last two years we've consistently railed against this and 
7511
7512repeatedly raised our concerns. I can assure you that on council Kitty 
7513
7514and I have been and will continue to ensure that the BMA is member led.
751504/12/2015, 18:54 - J Malawana: You are.
751604/12/2015, 18:54 - J Malawana: I know.
751704/12/2015, 18:54 - J Malawana: But we need a root and branch change. 
7518
7519We need to own the BMA.
752004/12/2015, 18:54 - J Malawana: Not let it be seen as external to 
7521
7522everyone of us.
752304/12/2015, 18:54 - D Tooth: Are when?? I need to give notice
752404/12/2015, 18:56 - D Tooth: Oh sorry 23 December
752504/12/2015, 18:56 - C Sheridan: So should we be sorting out time off 
7526
7527for 23rd just now?
752804/12/2015, 18:56 - J Malawana: Throughout this process whenever I have 
7529
7530talked to the internal machine I have made it patently clear they are 
7531
7532not the BMA. They don't own the BMA. The BMA is everyone of us and in 
7533
7534fact the BMA is more us than them as they will sooner or later retire 
7535
7536or die and we will be left with the pieces.
753704/12/2015, 18:57 - J Malawana: Timing will be needed to be sorted on 
7538
7539Monday as I need to talk to the DH and NHSEs.
754004/12/2015, 18:58 - C Sheridan: Ok cheers
754104/12/2015, 18:58 - J Malawana: I am just trying to get our negotiators 
7542
7543out of their units. Turns out the NHS can be "managed" when there is an 
7544
7545imperative. Let's see if it works.
754604/12/2015, 19:00 - L Boyle: I maybe haven't followed the whole chat 
7547
7548about internal battles but just to let you know - I am having a massive 
7549
7550uphill battle to get a meeting of the CAC & have had to write to the 
7551
7552head of secretariat & the treasurer to get the £, and essentially say 
7553
7554it's not acceptable to plan the first meeting of CAC to be April when 
7555
7556the Conf is in May.
755704/12/2015, 19:01 - L Boyle: I've been told for now I can have a VC CAC 
7558
7559meeting with one item (one aspect of Conf) on the agenda. I'll sort it 
7560
7561out but I don't know why there's so much resistance to basic essential 
7562
7563things.
756404/12/2015, 19:03 - C Sheridan: Seems strange luke esp with expectation 
7565
7566it will be a big year for it
756704/12/2015, 19:03 - A Collins: That's a little insane.
756804/12/2015, 19:04 - J Malawana: Ok will try and sort on Monday. Can you 
7569
7570remind on Monday Luke?
757104/12/2015, 19:05 - A Collier I think we need to know how many meetings 
7572
7573are normally held before we declare things insane.
757404/12/2015, 19:05 - J Malawana: I thought this was going to get sorted 
7575
7576but it dropped off my radar if i am being honest.
757704/12/2015, 19:05 - A Collier I seem to recall that there are at least 
7578
7579two CAC meetings before the conference, is that right?
758004/12/2015, 19:06 - A Collier A planning meeting and a motion sorting 
7581
7582meeting?
758304/12/2015, 19:06 - L Boyle: Andrew Dearden will get me what I need now 
7584
7585having exchanged emails today, but that is my exact point & it's made 
7586
7587things awkward. Not with Rob - Rob is having to talk Andy into funding 
7588
7589a meeting.
7590 
7591Johann yeah I'll let you know on Mon. Since we last discussed 3/52 ago 
7592
7593I've been told your idea of bringing it forward is not up for 
7594
7595discussion.
759604/12/2015, 19:07 - J Malawana: I am not sure it's as important as the 
7597
7598size of the conference.
759904/12/2015, 19:07 - J Malawana: Let's focus on getting that.
760004/12/2015, 19:07 - L Boyle: It prob looks to the wider committee/exec 
7601
7602that nothing is happening re Conf - just the opposite.
760304/12/2015, 19:07 - L Boyle: Andrew will be happy to increase size
760404/12/2015, 19:07 - L Boyle: Have had that chat too
760504/12/2015, 19:07 - J Malawana: Perfect. Well done.
760604/12/2015, 19:14 - M Redman: Lol Johann! My new trust are really 
7607
7608difficult and as much notice as poss would be great... Can we pencil in 
7609
7610provisional dates that can be cancelled if needed?
761104/12/2015, 19:14 - M Redman: Sorry I missed so much time after lunch. 
7612
7613Paul gadsby asked me to do a media thing that lasted nearly an hour
7614
7615(!!!) by time stuff set up.
761604/12/2015, 19:15 - L Boyle: I can make Dec 23
761704/12/2015, 19:15 - L Boyle: Am working all of Christmas on call so 
7618
7619I'll spend my last A/L day w #IStandWithJohann himself
762004/12/2015, 19:18 - J Malawana: Ok well book it in and we can work out 
7621
7622whether is a meeting everyone needs to come down for or just a vc.
762304/12/2015, 19:18 - A Collins: Melo your new CS needs a talking to
762404/12/2015, 19:18 - A Collins: Instructional message from 
7625
7626Yannis/Luke/Myself would do him the world of good.
762704/12/2015, 19:32 - A Collins: If anyone feels rhe need for a beer 
7628Go to Brewhive.com
7629
7630Click Redeem voucher
7631 
7632Enter PE23
7633
7634Claim 50 quid worth of beer for 20 quid. 
7635
7636Be happy
763704/12/2015, 19:47 - J Malawana: I've got a temperature and rigors and 
7638
7639no one is taking this seriously. All I asked for was a little fanning 
7640
7641and Sarah to rub my temples. Honestly. Just no sympathy. I think I 
7642
7643should report her to the gmc.
764404/12/2015, 19:50 - Z Greaves: Adams been hacked!
764504/12/2015, 19:50 - A Collins: You need a beer...
764604/12/2015, 19:50 - A Collins: Haha, no Adam hasn't been hacked. Adam 
7647
7648is passing on a favour from Charles Saunders of all people!
764904/12/2015, 19:50 - Z Greaves: I have wine :)
765004/12/2015, 19:51 - A Collins: I thought the Malawana treatment for 
7651
7652pyrexia was ice-cream? That's what Noah got wasn't it? Seems grossly 
7653
7654unfair for you not to get some too...
765504/12/2015, 19:51 - C Sheridan: Dont let The Sun get hold of that one: 
7656
7657"JDC chair makes committee member touch him and become his fannee" 
7658
7659(someone who fans). Part of the lavish lifestyle we all have clearly
766004/12/2015, 19:53 - J Malawana: I was defending gps. What a mistake.
766104/12/2015, 19:53 - J Malawana: She should be more sympathetic.
766204/12/2015, 19:56 - A Collins: If she's a GP surely she should have 
7663
7664given you ABx to make you go away by now?................... ??
766504/12/2015, 19:56 - D Tooth: No she needs to tell you to man up!!
766604/12/2015, 19:57 - D Tooth: She sounds like an excellent GP
766704/12/2015, 19:57 - J Malawana: I always thought that until I tested 
7668
7669out her bedside manner
767004/12/2015, 19:58 - A Collins: ??
767104/12/2015, 19:58 - A Collins: TMI
767204/12/2015, 19:58 - D Tooth: She doesn't need bedside manner she sees 
7673
7674patients in her room!!
767504/12/2015, 19:58 - D Tooth: And I do t want to know anymore!!
767604/12/2015, 19:59 - D Tooth: I am now off to enjoy my date with hubby. 
7677
7678Watching spectre. I know most people have already seen this but I am a 
7679
7680sad middle aged woman!!
768104/12/2015, 19:59 - J Malawana: They all die in the end
768204/12/2015, 20:00 - A Collins: Everyone dies in the end. #deep
768304/12/2015, 20:00 - A Collins: <Media omitted>
768404/12/2015, 20:04 - L J Davis: Don't die walawana! Please! 
7685#istandwithdavidandljd just is too long!!!
768604/12/2015, 20:08 - A Collins: OMG are they the next in line to the 
7687
7688throne? 
7689Defs don't die ;)
769004/12/2015, 20:15 - Z Greaves: <Media omitted>
769104/12/2015, 20:15 - Z Greaves: Just saying council chamber would defs 
7692
7693look better with one of these ;)
769404/12/2015, 20:19 - E McCourt: Red Wedding as our ultimate IA
769504/12/2015, 20:20 - A Collins: Hahaha
769604/12/2015, 20:32 - D Tooth: Ok trailers starting!!
769704/12/2015, 20:33 - A Collins: DONNA WE NEED TO TC NOW!!
769804/12/2015, 20:33 - A Collins: *runs*
769904/12/2015, 20:34 - A Collins: (kidding... Enjoy the film)
770004/12/2015, 20:34 - D Tooth: Fuck off!! Just don't screw go trainees!!
770104/12/2015, 20:34 - D Tooth: GP!!
770204/12/2015, 20:52 - A Collier Do they charge GPs 45% more for cinema 
7703
7704tickets?
770504/12/2015, 20:54 - A Collins: ??
770604/12/2015, 21:14 - B Roberts: Andrew Collier!
770704/12/2015, 21:16 - A Collins: Psychiatrists of course are allowed to 
7708
7709go to the cinema during NHS time but bill the cinema for it separately 
7710
7711??
771204/12/2015, 21:30 - A Collier I actually read Bethan's text in her 
7713
7714voice :-)
771504/12/2015, 21:33 - A Collins: I read it in Daffyd from little 
7716
7717Britain's Voice
771804/12/2015, 21:33 - A Collins: "Chair Of The Country of The Only Gay In 
7719
7720The Village"
772104/12/2015, 21:34 - A Collins: Daffyd needed the "inappropriately 
7722
7723homosexually orientated" JDC
772404/12/2015, 22:13 - M Redman: Hahaha you guys!!!
7725
7726My approach to ed sup who emailed... "I am concerned that at this rate 
7727
7728you will get inadequate experience of clinical psychiatry to meet your 
7729
7730training objectives."
7731
7732...Is going to be to tell him that Andrew Collier is going to give me 
7733
7734private tuition
773504/12/2015, 22:14 - M Redman: Did secretariat go to Hilton?
773604/12/2015, 22:15 - C Sheridan: I feel you are favouring Dr Collier 
7737
7738over other psychiatrists on JDC Melody. As a psychiatrist im wondering 
7739
7740what that might be about? ??
774104/12/2015, 22:16 - B Roberts: It's because you're too busy being my 
7742
7743private therapist and helping me overcome my massive train anxiety!
774404/12/2015, 22:18 - C Sheridan: That is massive anxiety of trains btw 
7745
7746everyone. Not anxiety over massive trains
774704/12/2015, 22:19 - M Redman: Chris your input is extremely welcomed. I 
7748
7749just feel Collier needs the punishment more. You can divide the work 
7750
7751equally.
7752
7753 Oooh can one of you sign me off for my mini-cexes if I do MSEs on each 
7754
7755member of exec?
775604/12/2015, 22:22 - C Sheridan: Well i have no issues then Melody. Id 
7757
7758dread to think of those MSEs. Reminds of a show where they got actors 
7759
7760to impersonate psychiatric conditions and the psychiatrists apparently 
7761
7762thought they were more ill than the real patients. What if you had to 
7763
7764section some of us?
776504/12/2015, 22:23 - B Roberts: Specifically about catching them. If I 
7766
7767miss a train, it means that I am an enormous failure as a human being.
776804/12/2015, 22:26 - Z Greaves: How do you know that if you've never 
7769
7770missed one?  Maybe you need to let yourself miss a train so as to 
7771
7772realise you might still be amazing even having missed a train?
777304/12/2015, 22:28 - B Roberts: That would be the ultimate therapy, Zoe. 
7774
7775A step too far for now but perhaps a therapeutic goal to aim towards by 
7776
7777the end of the session ????
777804/12/2015, 22:29 - Z Greaves: Lol you can do it ;)
777904/12/2015, 22:31 - E McCourt: I am sat on a train, on a bridge, 
7780
7781outside Newcastle, because the line north is closed and the station is 
7782
7783full. I need train therapy too please.
778404/12/2015, 22:33 - B Roberts: Aww, thanks for the support! I'll try 
7785
7786and leave only 50 minutes before my train next time ;) 
7787
7788Ellen, sounds as if you need a different kind of train therapy... Hope 
7789
7790you get home soon!
779104/12/2015, 22:34 - C Sheridan: Yes Ellen arent they serving gin? Kind 
7792
7793of train therapy i usually enjoy.
779404/12/2015, 22:34 - E McCourt: I can practically touch the Toon, and 
7795
7796yet here we wait...
779704/12/2015, 22:35 - E McCourt: Mmmm gin. Maybe I can talk them into 
7798
7799re-opening the trolley...
780004/12/2015, 22:58 - A Collins: Come on Ellen.. First bit if negs 
7801
7802training.
780304/12/2015, 23:17 - D Tooth: Andrew, no, they give us a 45%concession 
7804
7805cos we'e ace.
780604/12/2015, 23:20 - A Collier I heard that the ticket seller decided 
7807
7808you weren't serious enough about seeing the film and just booked you in 
7809
7810to see it in three weeks
781104/12/2015, 23:28 - D Tooth: Well he only gave me ten minutes, so not 
7812
7813much happened in that time.
781404/12/2015, 23:49 - A Collins: Did you have to come back in a month to 
7815
7816find out the real story?
781704/12/2015, 23:51 - D Tooth: No they'd died by then
781804/12/2015, 23:58 - A Collier We'll call it a draw Dr Tooth...this time
781905/12/2015, 00:01 - A Borbora: At uni the professor of psych tried to 
7820
7821get me to become one. The recruitment crisis must be dire.
782205/12/2015, 11:12 - L J Davis: I mis-read this 'train' thing as being 
7823
7824about 'trans'.
7825I may have been watching too much channel 4.
7826Anyway, you can always catch a trans with me Bethan. I've got no fear 
7827
7828of missing one. Plus I love company... And you could have helped pick 
7829
7830me up when I slipped off my fold-down perch on the train yesterday... I 
7831
7832hate the 19.15 to Swansea.
783305/12/2015, 11:56 - D Tooth: Oh lord ljd are you ok? Was Rory ok??
783405/12/2015, 12:31 - B Roberts: Oh, no, are you ok? We should coordinate 
7835
7836journeys in future!
783705/12/2015, 13:35 - L J Davis: Rory was ok; I held him up in the air... 
7838
7839I was ok, because a nice clinical scientist sitting next to me caught 
7840
7841me ??
784205/12/2015, 13:35 - A Collins: Aww, glad to hear you're both ok!
784305/12/2015, 13:48 - J Malawana: I wouldn't leave Rory with kitty. He 
7844
7845looked uncomfortable. It's the look babies have when you my mum holds 
7846
7847them.
784805/12/2015, 13:50 - J Malawana: Babies have an inner sense of how dodgy 
7849
7850individuals are. I slept for 10hours last night. I don't actually know 
7851
7852what to do with myself. Noah took me for a very long walk along the 
7853
7854canal.
785505/12/2015, 13:50 - E McCourt: Or David. Who looked like he was 
7856
7857seriously considering taking him home.
785805/12/2015, 13:51 - A Collins: Long walks with noah sound like a good 
7859
7860start!
786105/12/2015, 13:51 - J Malawana: Is David broody?
786205/12/2015, 13:51 - A Collins: David was indignant every time Rory 
7863
7864moved though, which I think would make childcare tough for him...
786505/12/2015, 13:53 - J Malawana: Noah takes after his mother. He's quite 
7866
7867bossy. So he gets indignant if he doesn't get his way with the walk.
786805/12/2015, 13:53 - A Collins: Takes after his *mother*? You sure about 
7869
7870that?
787105/12/2015, 13:55 - E McCourt: Maybe I'll give Noah a call and he can 
7872
7873give me some tips...
787405/12/2015, 15:42 - M Redman: Noah is SO CUTE.??
7875
7876I'm sad not to have met Rory yet. ??
7877
7878Anyway... The results from the f2 career destination report are 
7879
7880shocking...
7881
788252% progressing to specialty training (fallen even further this year, 
7883
7884fallen by ~20% over 5y)
7885
7886The total amount not practising medicine after f2 has increased by ~10% 
7887
7888over 5y
7889
789014.6% intending to work ltft (42.9% of these male)
7891
7892...
789305/12/2015, 16:26 - D Tooth: Thanks melody not a surprise though. 
7894Hunt was at an event with an LMC this week and he said they would force 
7895
7896doctors to go into GP, a bit like a national service for doctors!!
789705/12/2015, 16:33 - J Malawana: He genuinely said that?!?
789805/12/2015, 16:33 - J Malawana: Why is that not reported? That's 
7899
7900ridiculous
790105/12/2015, 16:35 - B Roberts: <Media omitted>
790205/12/2015, 16:44 - ?L Elliott: ...I don't have a pin badge...
790305/12/2015, 16:47 - ?L Elliott: Those results are shocking Melody. I 
7904
7905wonder how much of those not going into speciality training are still 
7906
7907working as docs in the uk as appose to traveling etc. Maybe they are 
7908
7909doing both. Think it sums up the general feeling. At my hospital only 
7910
7911about 25% went into training post...
791205/12/2015, 16:52 - M Redman: They are further broken down... 
7913
7914Eg 4.3% seeking employment outside UK, 6.1% other employment outside 
7915
7916UK, 13.1% taking a career break ...
7917
7918It's paper 6 UK FP board papers on e&t listserv if you want to see 
7919
7920whole breakdown
792105/12/2015, 16:56 - J Malawana: Lottie if you came for a drink you 
7922
7923would have got one. But I think Bethan is trying to get a reaction out 
7924
7925of another member of exec. Bethan is being mean. Naughty Bethan.
792605/12/2015, 16:57 - J Malawana: We do need to work out how we work out 
7927
7928to use the f2 and application data
792905/12/2015, 16:57 - J Malawana: It would be good if someone could 
7930
7931collage all the recruitment info into a very short paper?
793205/12/2015, 16:58 - J Malawana: Someone with some free time in next few 
7933
7934days from e&T?
793505/12/2015, 16:58 - J Malawana: *collate
793605/12/2015, 16:58 - J Malawana: Just all the key helpful facts.
793705/12/2015, 16:58 - J Malawana: Recruitment trends, application trends. 
7938
7939All the surveys been done recently etc.
794005/12/2015, 17:08 - K Mohan: Could the E&T paper be put on the exec 
7941
7942listserver so we can all see it please?
794305/12/2015, 17:08 - K Mohan: No worries if not just thought might be 
7944
7945worth a read.
794605/12/2015, 17:09 - J Malawana: Yes. Assumed it would just be on JDC 
7947
7948once it's produced as isn't really private
794905/12/2015, 17:09 - J Malawana: And the more eyes that see the better.
795005/12/2015, 17:10 - K Mohan: No sorry I meant the original FP board 
7951
7952paper. Sounds interesting.
795305/12/2015, 17:10 - K Mohan: And otherwise you're discussing a paper a 
7954
7955fair few of us haven't seen.
795605/12/2015, 17:10 - E McCourt: Hang on team
795705/12/2015, 17:11 - J Malawana: It's reported in the guardian. Ellen do 
7958
7959you have it? Can you post it?
796005/12/2015, 17:11 - J Malawana: I have seen it somewhere
796105/12/2015, 17:11 - K Mohan: Melody said it's on the E&T listserver.
796205/12/2015, 17:11 - J Malawana: Ahh.
796305/12/2015, 17:12 - E McCourt: I repeat hang on team
796405/12/2015, 17:12 - J Malawana: I am not sure I am on all the 
7965
7966listservers I am meant to be on. I should check that.
796705/12/2015, 17:12 - K Mohan: I THINK ELLEN WANTS TO SPEAK.
796805/12/2015, 17:12 - J Malawana: Lol
796905/12/2015, 17:12 - E McCourt: Sent to exec
797005/12/2015, 17:13 - J Malawana: I am just talking to fill space
797105/12/2015, 17:13 - K Mohan: Thank you Ellen!
797205/12/2015, 17:13 - J Malawana: Right am going to go for a curry. Kitty 
7973
7974you're not reacting at all to all the provocation. Impressive. It's 
7975
7976actually making me slightly more scared...
797705/12/2015, 17:13 - E McCourt: I'm going to buy a tazer
797805/12/2015, 17:14 - J Malawana: Lol
797905/12/2015, 17:14 - K Mohan: Ellen however is reacting impressively...
798005/12/2015, 17:15 - E McCourt: Impressively/appropriately whatevs.
798105/12/2015, 17:15 - C Castles: What's the tazer for?
798205/12/2015, 17:15 - K Mohan: I presumed "just cos"
798305/12/2015, 17:16 - C Castles: I thought it was maybe for work
798405/12/2015, 17:16 - E McCourt: It's our negs strategy
798505/12/2015, 17:16 - K Mohan: I think it's solely for BMA purposes.
798605/12/2015, 17:16 - C Castles: Haha
798705/12/2015, 17:17 - M Redman: You need it in hull, I got groped once 
7988
7989WHILST jogging. true story.
799005/12/2015, 17:18 - C Castles: I got groped once whilst jogging too, 
7991
7992though not in Hull
799305/12/2015, 17:18 - C Bell: I've never been groped nor jogged
799405/12/2015, 17:18 - K Mohan: I genuinely thought I was being mugged 
7995
7996last night when the over-enthusiastic junior doctor grabbed my arm 
7997
7998(taking my bag with him)... I almost punched him then realised what he 
7999
8000was saying.
800105/12/2015, 17:18 - K Mohan: #awkward
800205/12/2015, 17:18 - J Malawana: I got groped once.
800305/12/2015, 17:18 - D Tooth: Oh lord!!
800405/12/2015, 17:19 - E McCourt: What is this Jog?
800505/12/2015, 17:19 - J Malawana: I was dressed as little bo peep
800605/12/2015, 17:19 - D Tooth: Yes Johann it's been reported on GPC 
8007
8008website. Possibly going to be part of the special LMC conference caked 
8009
8010for January.
801105/12/2015, 17:19 - J Malawana: When I turned round the guy didn't jog, 
8012
8013he ran. He got scared shitless
801405/12/2015, 17:19 - D Tooth: I don't have a pin! ??
801505/12/2015, 17:19 - E McCourt: Cake?
801605/12/2015, 17:19 - M Redman: Kitty I lolled at that this morning. But 
8017
8018now I feel distressed at the thought of Johann dressed as little Bo 
8019
8020peep
8021 
8022His 4th nickname will have to be Bohann now
802305/12/2015, 17:19 - C Castles: Haha, any photos Johann?
802405/12/2015, 17:20 - C Castles: Of little jo peep, not of you being 
8025
8026groped
802705/12/2015, 17:20 - J Malawana: God there are loads of dodgy photos 
8028
8029from uni.
803005/12/2015, 17:20 - J Malawana: Had to get so many taken off Facebook
803105/12/2015, 17:21 - C Castles: The lmc cake conference Ellen
803205/12/2015, 17:21 - K Mohan: Sadly I think I've seen the bo peep 
8033
8034photos. 
8035
8036#thingsyoycantunsee
803705/12/2015, 17:21 - K Mohan: Jo peep. Haha. Almost as good as Yoyo.
803805/12/2015, 17:22 - A Collins: So... Team fancy dress for ARM party 
8039
8040then?
804105/12/2015, 17:22 - E McCourt: JDCakeConf
804205/12/2015, 17:23 - J Malawana: I had a phase at med school where my 
8043
8044friends decided it was funny to dress me up as crazy stuff. I wasn't 
8045
8046really into dressing up. But they all seemed to love it.
804705/12/2015, 17:23 - A Collins: Best make sure that's the 1 agenda item 
8048
8049Luke is allowed to discuss ??
805005/12/2015, 17:23 - J Malawana: It often involved paint.
805105/12/2015, 17:23 - J Malawana: Or dresses.
805205/12/2015, 17:23 - A Collins: I have that problem. So far I've been a 
8053
8054big bad Wolf and bowser... But then I dressed as something 
8055
8056inappropriate for a birthday party and they stopped insisting.
805705/12/2015, 17:24 - C Castles: Elaborate Adam
805805/12/2015, 17:24 - C Castles: What was inappropriate?
805905/12/2015, 17:24 - C Castles: Johann, there must have been some sort 
8060
8061of compliance on your part surely..
806205/12/2015, 17:25 - E McCourt: photos people photos
806305/12/2015, 17:26 - A Collins: <Media omitted>
806405/12/2015, 17:26 - D Tooth: Sorry! *called for January!!
806505/12/2015, 17:26 - H Carter: Most people go through 'phases' at med 
8066
8067school, Johann. A normal part of growing up.
806805/12/2015, 17:26 - E McCourt: Perhaps not one for Daily Mail there...
806905/12/2015, 17:26 - A Collins: Are you going to grow out of your phase 
8070
8071when you graduate Harry?
807205/12/2015, 17:27 - J Malawana: I have never kissed another boy. That's 
8073
8074was one of those phases I avoided.
807505/12/2015, 17:28 - J Malawana: Everyone assumed I had gay tendencies 
8076
8077because of having so many random gay mates. But that's because I was 
8078
8079their lustful secret crush :-)
808005/12/2015, 17:29 - J Malawana: Lol
808105/12/2015, 17:29 - A Collins: Haha, we're they seeking the exotic?
808205/12/2015, 17:30 - H Carter: I'm disturbed
808305/12/2015, 17:31 - K Mohan: Please can this conversation stop. Thanks.
808405/12/2015, 17:31 - J Malawana: Lol
808505/12/2015, 17:31 - J Malawana: I have slept so much this weekend I 
8086
8087think I am delirious
808805/12/2015, 17:31 - A Collins: Drunk on melatonin?
808905/12/2015, 17:32 - H Carter: I'm actually really happy you've had some 
8090
8091sleep finally.
809205/12/2015, 17:32 - A Collins: He does sound much happier doesn't he?
809305/12/2015, 17:32 - H Carter: Remove those charcoal shadows (c.f London 
8094
8095Evening Standard)
809605/12/2015, 17:32 - J Malawana: I am going to take Noah for curry
809705/12/2015, 17:32 - M Redman: Me too. Now ignore us all and go enjoy 
8098
8099your curry ?
810005/12/2015, 17:33 - J Malawana: Will do.
810105/12/2015, 17:33 - A Collins: Reads like melo is taking noah for curry 
8102
8103too :s
810405/12/2015, 17:33 - K Mohan: Right Johann has gone. Let's talk about 
8105
8106him.
810705/12/2015, 17:33 - K Mohan: ;)
810805/12/2015, 17:33 - A Collins: Curry with daddy was a vital part of my 
8109
8110childhood, glad noah is getting the same!
811105/12/2015, 17:34 - K Mohan: Have a good evening all. I'm going to see 
8112
8113Elf.
811405/12/2015, 17:40 - C Castles: I heard a rumor recently Johann liked to 
8115
8116dress up as a shepherdess
811705/12/2015, 17:46 - ?L Elliott: ELF!!! My fav film ever. Hope it's good 
8118
8119on the stage
812005/12/2015, 17:48 - K Mohan: Will let you know, Lottie! :)
812105/12/2015, 17:50 - L J Davis: Gods, I turn my back for five minutes 
8122
8123and the conversation descends to this?
812405/12/2015, 17:50 - C Castles: The conversation has been worse than 
8125
8126this before...
812705/12/2015, 17:52 - L J Davis: Fings wot I have done today; gone to 
8128
8129school Christmas bazaar; got the Christmas tree; purchased a sparkly 
8130
8131mother Christmas dress (Mabel), a big elf and mini elf outfit (Nathan & 
8132
8133Rory)
813405/12/2015, 17:53 - C Castles: I've been to southbank Christmas market, 
8135
8136then Covent Garden market.
813705/12/2015, 17:53 - L J Davis: I read the previous bits about kitty's 
8138
8139pink pussy, but Adam's fancy dress is just...
814005/12/2015, 17:53 - L J Davis: Well.
814105/12/2015, 17:53 - L J Davis: Ooh! That sounds nice!
814205/12/2015, 17:53 - L J Davis: Was it v v v v busy?
814305/12/2015, 17:54 - C Castles: It was. And it was dry too, which was 
8144
8145better than we were expecting
814605/12/2015, 17:54 - L J Davis: I'd like to go to the bath Christmas 
8147
8148market. But I wish they held it in March when no one else would want to 
8149
8150go...
815105/12/2015, 17:55 - C Castles: Southbank wasnt bad actually, though we 
8152
8153were there shortly after noon. Covent Garden busier, but not awful
815405/12/2015, 17:55 - C Castles: You could suggest that to them
815505/12/2015, 17:55 - L J Davis: Is it like proposing negs to an 
8156
8157unconvinced Jdc? ??
815805/12/2015, 17:56 - C Castles: Tell then you have a 98% mandate
815905/12/2015, 17:56 - C Castles: Them
816005/12/2015, 17:57 - L J Davis: Of the 6 people who agree with me?
816105/12/2015, 17:57 - C Castles: Keep that bit quiet
816205/12/2015, 17:57 - L J Davis: (One of whom wasn't completely 
8163
8164decided...)
816505/12/2015, 18:11 - C Castles: Oh, happy birthday Donna
816605/12/2015, 18:12 - B Roberts: Been busy at my official engagement - 
8167
8168WJDC open day that no-one who isn't already on the committee came to...
816905/12/2015, 18:13 - C Castles: Awwe
817005/12/2015, 18:14 - B Roberts: And I wasn't trying to provoke a 
8171
8172reaction, I was merely trying to compliment our esteemed chair! I'll 
8173
8174take back my compliment now!
817505/12/2015, 18:15 - D Tooth: Thank you Conan
817605/12/2015, 18:15 - D Tooth: Our tree went up today too!! It's allowed 
8177
8178when it's mamas birthday. The official start of Christmas
817905/12/2015, 18:16 - D Tooth: Enjoy kitty!
818005/12/2015, 19:27 - A Borbora: There's a picture of me wearing a 
8181
8182"Caribbean beach dress" from a party at uni once. As well as something 
8183
8184involving a "flasher" costume. 
8185Plus that one of me and a dead pig but we never talk about that unless 
8186
8187in direct sight of the dreaming spires.
818805/12/2015, 19:33 - J Malawana: Does everyone from the dreaming spires 
8189
8190do odd things with dead pigs?
819105/12/2015, 19:46 - C Bell: Oxford is a disgrace
819205/12/2015, 19:46 - A Borbora: The first rule of dead pig club is.....
819305/12/2015, 20:43 - B Roberts: Perhaps best not to post photos, just in 
8194
8195case the Mail hack us...
819605/12/2015, 20:58 - L J Davis: Plus I don't need nightmares in my brief 
8197
8198periods of sleep...
819905/12/2015, 22:01 - B Roberts: Too much information, yet massive LOL!
820005/12/2015, 22:01 - E McCourt: Agh!
820105/12/2015, 22:02 - Z Greaves: Terrifying lol
820205/12/2015, 22:07 - J Malawana: Hold on. That doesn't look like it was 
8203
8204that long ago...
820505/12/2015, 22:19 - A Borbora: <Media omitted>
820605/12/2015, 22:20 - A Borbora: <Media omitted>
820705/12/2015, 22:21 - C Castles: This is turning in to a strange type of 
8208
8209team bonding
821005/12/2015, 22:22 - C Castles: Aaron, your photos... Were they taken a 
8211
8212few years ago?
821305/12/2015, 22:29 - A Borbora: Before the current crisis yes
821405/12/2015, 22:36 - ?L Elliott: 'The Guardian of the JDC sausage...'
821505/12/2015, 22:38 - C Castles: What was the JCR sausage, dare I ask
821605/12/2015, 22:39 - A Borbora: It was my claim to fame. After I went up 
8217
8218the quality of the sausage massively improved
821905/12/2015, 22:43 - C Castles: I'm none the wiser
822005/12/2015, 22:43 - M Redman: I don't know if I want to understand...
822105/12/2015, 22:44 - E McCourt: I am no closer to understanding the 
8222
8223nature of said sausage...
822405/12/2015, 22:45 - M Redman: From me you can choose from
8225Adam ant
8226Shriek
8227Bald Darth Vader
8228YMCA
8229Rambo
8230
8231(That's obviously not including the standard array of batgirl, Disney 
8232
8233princess, bee, gangsta etc)
823405/12/2015, 22:45 - M Redman: Shrek*
823505/12/2015, 22:46 - A Borbora: The chef and I had sausage meetings
823605/12/2015, 22:47 - E McCourt: "Bald Darth Vader"?!
823705/12/2015, 22:47 - C Castles: Interested in Adam ant,but bald darth 
8238
8239vader sounds good
824005/12/2015, 22:48 - C Castles: Aaron, is the chef lottie?
824105/12/2015, 22:50 - M Redman: <Media omitted>
824205/12/2015, 22:51 - A Borbora: The chef at uni!
824305/12/2015, 22:51 - C Castles: Oh, darth vader with his helmet removed
824405/12/2015, 22:52 - J Malawana: I never predicted that Aaron would be 
8245
8246the one to lower the tone of this group
824705/12/2015, 22:53 - J Malawana: I am resisting every urge to ask 
8248
8249hundreds of questions.
825005/12/2015, 22:53 - C Castles: Just ask them, we all need to know
825106/12/2015, 07:33 - J Malawana: The art display idea of the campaign. I 
8252
8253think that's a great idea. But I need someone to take it forward. Any 
8254
8255volunteers? Other wise will ask someone from JDC? Also anyone have free 
8256
8257time to collate the application info over the next few days?
825806/12/2015, 08:16 - K Mohan: I'm keen. I'm intrigued how it may work. 
8259
8260It may need to be "in photos" as there have been many before. I'm happy 
8261
8262to take forward and work with Becca.
826306/12/2015, 08:18 - K Mohan: (And anyone else interested)
826406/12/2015, 09:19 - M Redman: It would make sense for me to do the app 
8265
8266stuff but I really just can't do anything extra over the next few days 
8267
8268bc of acf time sensitive stuff. sorryyyy.
826906/12/2015, 09:58 - J Malawana: Melody if I ask for someone from JDC to 
8270
8271help you would that work?
827206/12/2015, 10:00 - A Borbora: It should certainly be in pride of place 
8273
8274in the lobby of Bma house.  
8275However, I wonder if comms will object (as usual) on some spurious 
8276
8277grounds
827806/12/2015, 10:02 - E McCourt: Johann - let's flag the application 
8279
8280stuff up to  the rest of E&T first, who may not be religiously checking 
8281
8282whatsapp...
828306/12/2015, 10:15 - J Malawana: Ok sure. Could you ask them Ellen? It's 
8284
8285fairly time dependent as it needs to set the background music to negs.
828606/12/2015, 10:15 - J Malawana: If we can have a bunch of facts to 
8287
8288point at then we can keep plugging them
828906/12/2015, 10:18 - J Malawana: Agree Aaron. Lets see what Comms say.
829006/12/2015, 10:37 - J Malawana: I have to say I think if we asked the 
8291
8292BMA machine to do this they will mess it up. I would prefer it was a 
8293
8294success and not tied up in process. We could ask Comms simply to prove 
8295
8296a point but I am tempted to bypass that as an idea and actually suggest 
8297
8298kitty and Rebecca form a little organising committee, explore spaces 
8299
8300for an art gallery exhibition and then work with some of the grassroots 
8301
8302people to create a proper display like an artistic exhibition. In my 
8303
8304daily mail alternative career I often looked at ways of displaying work 
8305
8306and actually worked with a couple of artists and art galleries and so 
8307
8308know that this is the kind of thing the BMA will definitely not have 
8309
8310the capacity to do internally. If the gallery idea is pulled off you 
8311
8312can then bring the displays in house to be displayed in the foyer after 
8313
8314show as it were.
831506/12/2015, 10:47 - M Redman: I could do it AFTER Friday but I really 
8316
8317can't before, even with someone from jdc, sorry. 
8318
8319Hopefully someone else on e&t can...
832006/12/2015, 10:48 - Z Greaves: I'm sorry with exams coming up after 
8321
8322Crimbo I'm really going to struggle to take on anything new to after 
8323
8324that
832506/12/2015, 11:11 - K Mohan: I'm really happy to take this forward. 
8326
8327Have had lots of ideas. If that's ok with everyone if someone tells JDC 
8328
8329I'm going to take it forward. I can get a few interested folk together 
8330
8331and get going.
833206/12/2015, 11:13 - A Collins: I think kitty should write a proposal, 
8333
8334then we can appoint her and a member of staff, and give her a credit 
8335
8336card and a 2 year tenure ??
833706/12/2015, 11:13 - A Collins: (kidding, I think that kitty's new hair 
8338
8339is a sign of her creativity which will make hee perfect for this role)
834006/12/2015, 11:15 - C Castles: I dont think HEE should be allowed this 
8341
8342role
834306/12/2015, 11:18 - A Collins: *rolls eyes*
834406/12/2015, 11:20 - A Borbora: Does anyone know any artists?
834506/12/2015, 11:20 - ?L Elliott: ....my brother
834606/12/2015, 11:20 - ?L Elliott: Rebecca Morris said she had done artist 
8347
8348work before
834906/12/2015, 11:23 - ?L Elliott: My bro has a lot of exhibition 
8350
8351experience I'll ask him if he'd do anything like this. He's mostly into 
8352
8353doing short films and that.
835406/12/2015, 11:25 - A Borbora: Very good idea I think
835506/12/2015, 11:26 - A Borbora: Comms will mess this up or refuse to 
8356
8357touch it
835806/12/2015, 11:27 - D Rouse: There has been a lot of call for this
835906/12/2015, 11:27 - D Rouse: I was approached by 5 people about it
836006/12/2015, 11:27 - ?L Elliott: Ha but so might my bro! Also he's based 
8361
8362in Glasgow so not sure of logistics of that
836306/12/2015, 11:29 - A Collier Whilst I still think this is a relatively 
8364
8365good idea I'm not sure that I've seen a huge amount of "art" at the 
8366
8367protests.
836806/12/2015, 11:29 - A Collier Some really funny placards yes but art?
836906/12/2015, 11:30 - A Collier Though I know that's highly subjective
837006/12/2015, 11:32 - A Collier Have we decided on the purpose of the 
8371
8372exhibition? It's seems slightly parallel to the crowd sourcing of 
8373
8374campaign materials ideas I suggested but I'd hope the two elements 
8375
8376could be run together.
837706/12/2015, 11:33 - ?L Elliott: I thought the idea would be to get 
8378
8379photos or placards/protests or a collage and present it as a nice 
8380
8381visual piece.
838206/12/2015, 11:34 - J Malawana: The artist side I have put out some 
8383
8384feelers through the London high art scene to see whether we can find 
8385
8386someone to take an interest. Let me see if I can get a high profile 
8387
8388artist or art curator to do it for free.
838906/12/2015, 11:34 - J Malawana: The ideal person would be someone like 
8390
8391Grayson Perry or someone of that stature. But let's see who may bite.
839206/12/2015, 11:35 - J Malawana: Kitty you can take this forward. Let me 
8393
8394just get the set up for you sorted and then you can put it together
839506/12/2015, 11:35 - A Collier I'm really liking the Grayson Perry idea!
839606/12/2015, 11:36 - D Rouse: Could we charge to view it and use said 
8397
8398charge to fund leaflets posters etc that grass roots make if the call 
8399
8400to arms is sounded again?
840106/12/2015, 11:37 - J Malawana: I can get to him but I need to make the 
8402
8403approach in the right way as I tried to get Michael palin before to do 
8404
8405something during the campaign but it failed so I am worried about 
8406
8407getting these people to agree to overtly anti government ideas.
840806/12/2015, 11:37 - D Rouse: It's either a great idea or awful idea
840906/12/2015, 11:37 - A Collier Donations perhaps but most galleries 
8410
8411don't charge.
841206/12/2015, 11:37 - J Malawana: At least that's how they see this.
841306/12/2015, 11:37 - D Rouse: Donations go towards the fighting fund
841406/12/2015, 11:37 - A Collier Yes, but I'd be against charging
841506/12/2015, 11:40 - ?L Elliott: So we are talking about an actual 
8416
8417gallery? Away from BMA house?
841806/12/2015, 11:40 - ?L Elliott: Soz if missed that bit currently on 
8419
8420post take
842106/12/2015, 11:41 - A Collier Not decided yet, obviously the great hall 
8422
8423could be a venue but an external space could be more interesting
842406/12/2015, 11:41 - A Collins: I think there is an idea to host an 
8425
8426exhibition  which when over would move to BMA house
842706/12/2015, 11:41 - A Collier How about Westminster Hall :-)
842806/12/2015, 11:43 - A Borbora: I did t know that idea had been 
8429
8430suggested Adam
843106/12/2015, 11:43 - A Borbora: Didn't
843206/12/2015, 11:47 - A Collins: I thought Johann had floated it 
8433
8434initially, but it's just an idea, I suspect we could do either but 
8435
8436we've got a lot of space in BMA house so we should be able to host it 
8437
8438one would think
843906/12/2015, 12:47 - A Borbora: There's a lot of talent within JDC that 
8440
8441would be good to harness I think.
844206/12/2015, 12:47 - A Collins: Definitely
844306/12/2015, 15:09 - H Carter: Adam do you know that comms is on the Jdc 
8444
8445listserver?
844606/12/2015, 15:09 - H Carter: I'm sure you do ;-)
844706/12/2015, 15:11 - C Castles: Comms got very upset a year or two ago 
8448
8449when someone criticised them on listserver
845006/12/2015, 15:12 - A Yassaee: Someone criticised them on the msc 
8451
8452listserv last year and they got ultra defensive
845306/12/2015, 15:13 - A Collins: I didn't realise they were directly on 
8454
8455it, but I wrote that assuming enough people were that they would see 
8456
8457it.
845806/12/2015, 15:13 - A Collins: So them being on it is even better.
845906/12/2015, 15:14 - H Carter: I wasn't suggesting that people should 
8460
8461refrain from posting reasonable comments (your comment was reasonable), 
8462
8463just thought I'd inform you.
846406/12/2015, 15:14 - A Collins: Its handy do know, thank you!
846506/12/2015, 15:14 - A Collins: Glad I said "corporate messaging"  not 
8466
8467"corporate bullshit"
846806/12/2015, 15:15 - A Collins: Comms refused to come to a jdc exec 
8469
8470meeting to answer for their crap, so maybe they can do it on list
847106/12/2015, 15:17 - C Castles: They prob wont reply, rather will 
8472
8473complain to someone, who will then complain to Johann
847406/12/2015, 15:17 - A Borbora: So now we've got another internal fight. 
8475
8476Johann has been handling them with difficulty but success and likewise 
8477
8478Andrew and kitty had to work hard and carefully on it. 
8479I personally think this will make things more difficult as they'll 
8480
8481become defensive and close down. However, hopefully I'll be proved 
8482
8483wrong.
848406/12/2015, 15:19 - A Borbora: I wasn't aware that they refused to come 
8485
8486to an exec meeting. When was this? They aren't petulant schoolboys 
8487
8488being summoned to the headmaster and we do have to carefully manipulate 
8489
8490them into doing at least some of what we want.
849106/12/2015, 15:22 - A Collins: I asked for them to be asked to attend 
8492
8493and was told they'd been asked but had said they were too busy.
8494
8495Frankly, this is rhe issue. They should have to be handled or 
8496
8497negotiated with, they should be working for us to produce messaging 
8498
8499that we want to produce, unless there is an absolutely and demonstrably 
8500
8501critical risk to the BMA ad a brand and they think we've gone rogue.
850206/12/2015, 15:23 - A Collins: I think the officers and members and 
8503
8504reps have all proven their ability to read and respond to members and 
8505
8506the public, and comms have demonstrated they completely lack such an 
8507
8508awareness.
850906/12/2015, 15:24 - A Collins: They are behaving, as far as I can tell 
8510
8511from officers feedback, like petulant schoolboys, and as a membership 
8512
8513organisation reps and committees should have the driving control over 
8514
8515our face, not a comms department.
851606/12/2015, 15:26 - A Collins: I think talking about departments of the 
8517
8518BMA needing to be manipulated is extraordinary. We should be able to 
8519
8520work with these people, not control them, and they, and we, need to be 
8521
8522responsive to appropriate feedback.
852306/12/2015, 15:27 - A Collins: I'm willing to defend my comments, and 
8524
8525if they complain, then I'm happy for it to be passed completely on to 
8526
8527me to discuss with them as they wish.
852806/12/2015, 15:32 - A Borbora: So you asked. That's not the same as a 
8529
8530request for them to attend the Exec, which would be made through the 
8531
8532chair. 
8533A number of us have worked regularly with them and find it frustrating 
8534
8535and that they aren't always the best. 
8536While you may be willing to defend your comments i think they will lead 
8537
8538to difficulties. Maybe those who have worked with them for longer eg 
8539
8540Andrew/Kitty, Harry/Charlie or johann will disagree and I hope I'm 
8541
8542wrong. 
8543This is like Darshan and the picketing stuff. The answer isn't on the 
8544
8545listserver. As was discussed on Friday there are a number of changes 
8546
8547that the Bma will have to make in light of the current events. However, 
8548
8549they'll have to be made slowly and with co-operation not by loudly 
8550
8551shouting or posts on the JDC listserver which will only antagonise the 
8552
8553targets.
855406/12/2015, 15:39 - A Collins: How will we justify asking Comms to 
8555
8556change, if when we have a discussion about the problems with comms, we 
8557
8558all appear to be satisfied with their worn?
855906/12/2015, 15:39 - A Collins: *work?
856006/12/2015, 15:39 - A Collins: My feeling is this will be seen as 
8561
8562evidence they're doing just fine.
856306/12/2015, 15:40 - A Collins: Anyway, I don't wish to get into an 
8564
8565argument, rhe problem is most certainly not within exec.
856606/12/2015, 15:48 - A Collins: <Media omitted>
856706/12/2015, 15:49 - J Malawana: I think we sometimes need to be aware. 
8568
8569We have a Comms department that contain people that would make a very 
8570
8571very effective Comms department for a political party. What many of our 
8572
8573members actually want is a mix of that with a advertising and 
8574
8575campaigning organisation. But the issue is not with the staff I don't 
8576
8577think. It lies with the direction of travel of us as a political 
8578
8579organisation and leadership. 
8580
8581This is a long battle. There is not going to be an achievable outcome 
8582
8583in the short term. The way through this is to fundamentally change the 
8584
8585direction of travel of the political leadership. That's the only way to 
8586
8587solve this and make the organisation more responsive to the membership.
858806/12/2015, 15:51 - J Malawana: The more I have looked into the recent 
8589
8590history I think this all traces back to the last contract negs in 1999
8591
8592-2003. That was a flexion point in our organisation. Anyway can chat 
8593
8594about it over a drink sometime.
859506/12/2015, 16:33 - A Borbora: As you know I like history so will 
8596
8597probably take you up on that!
859806/12/2015, 17:15 - L Boyle: The comms dept came to the grassroots day 
8599
8600at the start of this session - they are very controlling, or seeking to 
8601
8602keep control is what I would say. Very prescriptive about what goes 
8603
8604out...
860506/12/2015, 17:22 - L J Davis: Hmmm. Does the webshite fall under 
8606
8607comms? (I think it does, but would hate to blame them). It is still 
8608
8609awful. This is basic stuff which the association is failing to get 
8610
8611right...
861206/12/2015, 18:00 - M Redman: Who is even on comms?
861306/12/2015, 18:06 - A Borbora: Henrietta is the head 
8614Jo tanner 2nd 
8615Then a whole load of people who are actually pretty good eg the media 
8616
8617team. There's a graphic design team who do posters and a digital 
8618
8619contents team 
8620Probably others too
862106/12/2015, 18:08 - M Redman: I seeeeee... Thanks Aaron. I know the 
8622
8623media team but that's it...
862406/12/2015, 19:54 - K Mohan: I'm afraid I take a slightly different 
8625
8626tack re Comms and I think what I'm going to say is likely to be 
8627
8628controversial.
862906/12/2015, 19:55 - K Mohan: The issues we have with Comms are largely 
8630
8631political and it's the political issues that we need to sort out.
863206/12/2015, 19:57 - K Mohan: Andrew and I were repeatedly blocked when 
8633
8634we tried to do certain things in September - and we were repeatedly 
8635
8636told things that were essentially bollocks by people very high up in 
8637
8638this association when actually the reason we weren't "being allowed to 
8639
8640do things" was due to political decisions which had been taken by those 
8641
8642more senior to us (both members and managers) in the Association.
864306/12/2015, 19:58 - K Mohan: I asked about Comms on Friday and my 
8644
8645question wasn't really answered but I left it as what I think I'd like 
8646
8647to know is what our (and by that I mean Johann's) comms strategy is. 
8648
8649That's the most important thing here.
865006/12/2015, 19:59 - K Mohan: I couldn't care less if we have to deliver 
8651
8652that through formal BMA comms routes or by resurrecting the 'guerilla 
8653
8654comms' we used in august/sept - there are some things far better to get 
8655
8656out unofficially- we just need to know what our plan is and how best to 
8657
8658deliver it.
865906/12/2015, 20:01 - K Mohan: as tempting as it is (and i say that as 
8660
8661someone who has physically walked out of meetings with Comms before) we 
8662
8663don't achieve our aims by having a go at Comms - we will never target 
8664
8665the right people as the decisions are political. the more junior 
8666
8667members are generally excellent
866806/12/2015, 20:03 - J Malawana: I agree completely kitty.
866906/12/2015, 20:03 - J Malawana: The issue lies at the top of the 
8670
8671organisation.
867206/12/2015, 20:03 - K Mohan: and let's not under-estimate the power of 
8673
8674unofficial comms -you may remember i asked jdc/exec to write the blogs 
8675
8676this summer and literally spent two weeks of my life co-ordinating 
8677
8678comms. Yannis' blog which we put out unofficially on a sunday evening - 
8679
8680ON BMA COMMUNITIES - and i tweeted about it in the first instance - is 
8681
8682still the most read page ever on the entire bma website. EVER. 
8683
8684SERIOUSLY.
868506/12/2015, 20:04 - J Malawana: Yep.
868606/12/2015, 20:04 - B Roberts: Really? Yannis, that's awesome!
868706/12/2015, 20:05 - K Mohan: Yes. So we need to be clever as you know. 
8688
8689And that's there reason why Andrew and I didn't devolve Comms to any of 
8690
8691our deputies - not because they weren't capable etc etc  but because of 
8692
8693the political problem at the top of the organisation.
869406/12/2015, 20:05 - A Collins: Wow, amazing work yannis, and kitty for 
8695
8696organising!
869706/12/2015, 20:07 - K Mohan: So - my view is that we need to take our 
8698
8699cue from Johann and Johann alone about this. And we need to be creative 
8700
8701but not afraid to do things ourselves. It's hard word but it's not 
8702
8703because our Comms people are rubbish - they are not rubbish - and we 
8704
8705have to be careful not to insult them as frankly they are doing their 
8706
8707job. But the politics is sensitive. Anyway, just my tuppence.
870806/12/2015, 20:07 - K Mohan: *hard work.
870906/12/2015, 20:08 - J Malawana: Completely agree kit
871006/12/2015, 20:10 - J Malawana: The next month we need to keep pro NHS 
8711
8712subtle anti hunt stuff high profile. Not be outright anti Tories. But 
8713
8714be promoting things that are positive news stories about the nhs and 
8715
8716juniors. Keep the networks going. The lines open and the juniors 
8717
8718interested.
871906/12/2015, 20:11 - J Malawana: The art show is a good example.
872006/12/2015, 20:11 - J Malawana: The NHS song that Harriet is doing.
872106/12/2015, 20:11 - J Malawana: Stories about application rates and how 
8722
8723the mishandling is directly responsible.
872406/12/2015, 20:11 - J Malawana: Etc etc.
872506/12/2015, 20:11 - J Malawana: Anything that keeps the Comms lines 
8726
8727open. Our Comms lines.
872806/12/2015, 20:12 - K Mohan: those NHS singers as well? - the flashmob 
8729
8730ones- we;re getting them along to our meet the doctors event on the 
8731
8732South Bank next sat.
873306/12/2015, 20:12 - D Rouse: Cool :-)
873406/12/2015, 20:12 - J Malawana: A lot of the grassroots people are 
8735
8736being drawn into the nurses roar stuff.
873706/12/2015, 20:13 - J Malawana: We need to support in general
873806/12/2015, 20:13 - J Malawana: Careful not to jeopardise our contract 
8739
8740negs. But at same time maintain broad support
874106/12/2015, 20:27 - A Borbora: Plus stuff with LNCs to keep the reps 
8742
8743engaged. Promote things they can do in their hospital. The stuff Amjad 
8744
8745is leading on
874608/12/2015, 13:32 - A Collins: BRB, signing up to drive high speed 
8747
8748trains. Xoxo.
874908/12/2015, 13:42 - C Castles: Haha
875008/12/2015, 13:42 - C Castles: >50k
875108/12/2015, 13:43 - A Collins: Yeah Aaron is being a tease not putting 
8752
8753a recruitment link in email!
875408/12/2015, 13:44 - A Collins: Maybe I could be locum nights doc and 
8755
8756train driver?
875708/12/2015, 13:50 - A Borbora: They're looking for qualified drivers in 
8758
8759Blackpool and Barrow I think
876008/12/2015, 13:52 - M Redman: Would you want the trauma of people 
8761
8762jumping in front of you when you're driving though??
876308/12/2015, 13:52 - A Collins: Does one get paid to train? 
8764
8765#doyouseewhatididthere #askingforafriend
876608/12/2015, 13:52 - A Borbora: Yes you do. Half salary.
876708/12/2015, 13:54 - A Collins: Do you get paid to make dodgy puns? I 
8768
8769feel someone  sending that signal would really drive my enthusiasm...
877008/12/2015, 13:54 - A Borbora: I know a couple of drivers (who sent me 
8771
8772that stuff). 
8773One of then had a suicide. He was quite shaken. They get 6 weeks off 
8774
8775work and a few grand in compensation but some can never face going back 
8776
8777after (he was ok in the end)
877808/12/2015, 13:54 - A Collins: Aww :( I'm sorry for your friend.
877908/12/2015, 13:55 - A Collins: Unrelated to the effect on individuals 
8780
8781though, I've always assumed that per driver they are a very rare event?
878208/12/2015, 13:58 - M Redman: Well appaz but that rare... recently my 
8783
8784train driver had just come back of that leave, and had a few journeys, 
8785
8786then someone jumped in front of our train. my medical skills (lol) 
8787
8788weren't needed bc the train was full of train conducters who'd just 
8789
8790been to a 'dealing with PTSD for train drivers' course in London
879108/12/2015, 13:58 - M Redman: *whispers* I'm not sure that we should be 
8792
8793talking about this in front of bethan
879408/12/2015, 13:59 - M Redman: Not that rare*
879508/12/2015, 14:01 - A Collins: I mean, that's clearly awful, but I'm 
8796
8797not sure it writes off the whole career.
879808/12/2015, 14:02 - M Redman: No. But medicine is obviously better 
8799
8800????????????
880108/12/2015, 14:02 - A Collins: Obviously...
880208/12/2015, 14:06 - A Borbora: <Media omitted>
880308/12/2015, 14:07 - M Redman: Portec
880408/12/2015, 14:10 - ?L Elliott: Love machine?
880508/12/2015, 14:11 - A Borbora: Humm
8806It's a flange greaser
880708/12/2015, 14:11 - ?L Elliott: So I got it right?
880808/12/2015, 14:12 - D Rouse: Lottie and Aaron are those two machines 
8809
8810you suggest one in the same
881108/12/2015, 14:12 - A Borbora: ????
881208/12/2015, 14:16 - A Collins: ??????
881308/12/2015, 18:25 - L J Davis: I appear to have slipped into a parallel 
8814
8815universe. Aaron's flange greaser = Lottie's love machine?
881608/12/2015, 18:47 - A Collins: Not sure you're in a parallel 
8817
8818universe...
881908/12/2015, 19:54 - L J Davis: D'you ever watch family guy? You know 
8820
8821those scenes where they vomit for an inappropriately long time...?
882208/12/2015, 19:54 - L J Davis: 
8823
8824??????????????????????????????????????????????
882508/12/2015, 20:00 - C Castles: Aaron's grease flanger looks solar 
8826
8827powered, so probably isn't doing much this weather
882808/12/2015, 20:03 - A Borbora: Speak for yourself mate
882908/12/2015, 20:03 - A Borbora: ????????
883008/12/2015, 22:35 - B Roberts: Melody, you don't have to worry, I'm 
8831
8832only afraid of missing trains!
883308/12/2015, 22:37 - A Collins: And anyone jumping in front of them is 
8834
8835unlikely to miss ??
883609/12/2015, 09:27 - L J Davis: ????????????????
883709/12/2015, 09:39 - J Malawana: God there are some really interesting 
8838
8839and angry people that are junior doctors.
884009/12/2015, 09:40 - M Redman: Tbf Johann you do get the extremes. 
8841
8842Though you've probably now met more juniors than the rest of us put 
8843
8844together.
8845
8846What's happened now?
884709/12/2015, 09:40 - C Sheridan: I assume you dont mean exec on this 
8848
8849occasion?
885009/12/2015, 09:42 - J Malawana: Lol. Just the forum.
885109/12/2015, 09:42 - J Malawana: Fascinating place.
885209/12/2015, 09:42 - J Malawana: Read the post from David bonsall if you 
8853
8854want to get your blood pressure up.
885509/12/2015, 09:42 - J Malawana: :-)
885609/12/2015, 09:45 - C Sheridan: Ru a Dr Who fan Johann? I think reading 
8857
8858that forum too long is like when The Master stared into the untempered 
8859
8860schism on Gallifrey and it drove him mad. Beware!
886109/12/2015, 09:50 - E McCourt: Chris, even if Johann doesnt enjoy your 
8862
8863reference, I do. Lots.
886409/12/2015, 09:50 - C Sheridan: Aw thank goodness. I thought id 
8865
8866silenced exec with geekery
886709/12/2015, 09:52 - A Borbora: Never read that forum. I don't think I'm 
8868
8869missing much!
887009/12/2015, 09:57 - E McCourt: <Media omitted>
887109/12/2015, 09:59 - M Redman: I can beat that (with both major cringe 
8872
8873and pride...)
887409/12/2015, 09:59 - M Redman: <Media omitted>
887509/12/2015, 09:59 - C Sheridan: I knew the next dr would be a woman! Ru 
8876
8877taking over in the xmas special Ellen? I think your first task is to go 
8878
8879back in time 3 years and tell us what gits NHSE and JH would be and 
8880
8881tell us to tell them to sod off
888209/12/2015, 10:00 - M Redman: I released that like 2 days after we 
8883
8884found out River Song was Melody Pond...
888509/12/2015, 10:00 - C Sheridan: Definitely pride melody. I love even 
8886
8887the font looks right ?
888809/12/2015, 10:01 - E McCourt: Equal amounts amazing and hilarious!
888909/12/2015, 10:07 - L J Davis: I've done that already, chris...
889009/12/2015, 10:07 - L J Davis: There's a reason there's a Missy
889109/12/2015, 10:08 - L J Davis: ??
889209/12/2015, 10:09 - L J Davis: Personally, I'm excited we've got a Dr 
8893
8894Donna on the team. She's half time-Lord you know.
889509/12/2015, 10:17 - M Redman: Johann - You're right... BP ?
8896
8897Great response from you though. (Loved the bit about googling not equal 
8898
8899to expert knowledge lol).
890009/12/2015, 12:13 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Hi guys. R.E the massey letter of 
8901
8902assurance r.e cost neutrality and 7DS. Allyson Pollock has seen it and 
8903
8904agrees its a joke. Have we got the more detail behind the letter and 
8905
8906who is going thru it with a fine toothcomb?
890709/12/2015, 12:13 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Damn typos! Aplogies. At a 
8908
8909course.
891009/12/2015, 14:58 - B Roberts: Re: forum post. Need ramipril, stat...
891109/12/2015, 15:02 - J Malawana: Who is ciaran Doherty? The guy is 
8912
8913definitely starting to make me slightly concerned
891409/12/2015, 15:07 - D Rouse: No idea who he is but I have read his 
8915
8916comments and I think we just have to let him vent.  
8917
8918I say it again and again that Facebook group has had its day and needs 
8919
8920to close shop
892109/12/2015, 20:46 - D Tooth: Ljd just to add, a patient called asking 
8922
8923for me the other day and said to reception I've seen dr who. Thought my 
8924
8925surname was who, when it had been said to him!!
892611/12/2015, 07:09 - M Redman: Any news about 23rd yet?
892711/12/2015, 10:08 - A Collins: I spoke to Dan H yesterday and he said 
8928
8929we'd likely need to wait til Tues next week for news
893011/12/2015, 17:16 - C Sheridan: Have i missed it or is there a date for 
8931
8932the first negs meeting with NHSE yet? Also in terms of the 3 teams who 
8933
8934is going to be on what and how is that bit being decided?
893511/12/2015, 17:22 - J Malawana: I need to organise an exec catch up 
8936
8937this weekend. I am an usher at a wedding tomorrow. Any chance people 
8938
8939can be free Sunday?
894011/12/2015, 17:24 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Am free sun
894111/12/2015, 17:33 - A Sami: I am free Sunday evening after 18:00
894211/12/2015, 17:34 - D Rouse: After 1800 also
894311/12/2015, 17:40 - C Sheridan: On call 0900-0900 sorry. Will dial in 
8944
8945if not busy though
894611/12/2015, 17:41 - A Collins: Yeah can do x
894711/12/2015, 17:43 - B Roberts: Depends what time but can probably make 
8948
8949it (just need to go to bed super-early as catching an early flight on 
8950
8951Monday...).
895211/12/2015, 18:02 - L J Davis: After 12 should be ok...
895311/12/2015, 18:03 - D Tooth: All day up to 7 should be fine
895411/12/2015, 18:26 - K Mohan: I'm in Bristol and need to come back on 
8955
8956Sunday prob in the morning. If we can decide a time today I'll plan my 
8957
8958journey back around it.
895911/12/2015, 18:34 - C Castles: Maybe
896011/12/2015, 18:40 - C Bell: Yup
896111/12/2015, 18:58 - M Redman: I can be free sun
896211/12/2015, 20:06 - Z Greaves: After 16.00 for me
896311/12/2015, 20:11 - A Yassaee: Yep
896412/12/2015, 10:49 - K Mohan: So are we speaking tomorrow? And if so at 
8965
8966what time? Please can we fix a time ASAP.
896712/12/2015, 10:59 - J Malawana: Sorry Kitty. Yes we are. I cannot work 
8968
8969out an ideal time. I would say best thing is morning and then depending 
8970
8971on numbers I can wash up in evening if necessary. Am at a wedding today 
8972
8973as an usher so texting intermittent. But can we say 9am? Happy to do 
8974
89758am if easier for people?
897612/12/2015, 11:01 - A Collins: 9 pls. 8am on a Sunday is a time I'd 
8977
8978rather pretend doesn't exist.
897912/12/2015, 11:01 - J Malawana: Basically to reassure exec we have 
8980
8981basically taken the document with the columns and the signed off 
8982
8983statement and have basically used that. How that's done is granular but 
8984
8985the strategic policy has been kept absolutely within the limits.
898612/12/2015, 11:01 - J Malawana: Opening positions, fall backs and break 
8987
8988points.
898912/12/2015, 11:02 - J Malawana: I have to say the professional 
8990
8991negotiator has been absolutely without question the best decision we 
8992
8993have made.
899412/12/2015, 11:02 - C Sheridan: Im on call from nine so usually 8 would 
8995
8996suit me better (sorry adam)
899712/12/2015, 11:02 - C Sheridan: *unusually*
899812/12/2015, 11:02 - J Malawana: I think without him I can honestly say 
8999
9000we would not have been prepared even 10% for what we are about to try 
9001
9002and do.
900312/12/2015, 11:04 - J Malawana: In some ways many of exec have also 
9004
9005been through the assessment process so they know what he's about.
900612/12/2015, 11:04 - A Collins: Good to hear. He did sound like he was 
9007
9008considering a lot of angles we wouldn't have been at the assessment!
900912/12/2015, 11:05 - J Malawana: But am relatively confident we will be 
9010
9011ready. May not get other side to agree but it's not because of not 
9012
9013being ready.
901412/12/2015, 11:06 - Z Greaves: Can do 8 or 9, but will have to 
9015
9016disappear off by 10
901712/12/2015, 11:09 - B Roberts: I can do tomorrow morning. Catch you all 
9018
9019then.
902012/12/2015, 11:09 - J Malawana: Shall we say 8am then?
902112/12/2015, 11:32 - K Mohan: I have to say I think it is far easier for 
9022
9023you to work with the professional negotiator as "new" to the negs than 
9024
9025it would have been for me or Andrew. I say that having sat in on 
9026
9027various CC discussions where inevitably those previously involved in 
9028
9029the process become increasingly defensive. It's one of the reasons 
9030
9031Andrew and I didn't stand for the negs team.
903212/12/2015, 11:34 - K Mohan: Can we also clarify if the steering group 
9033
9034are going to meet? I have no idea when I'm meant to be trying to be 
9035
9036available and if we're talking about proper meetings or brief catch 
9037
9038ups.
903912/12/2015, 11:47 - C Castles: I probably won't join you tomorrow, as I 
9040
9041had been planning on spending some time with my family
904212/12/2015, 12:08 - A Sami: Still after 18:00 in the evening for me 
9043
9044(and probably Ellen after 18:00 as well)
904512/12/2015, 12:53 - J Malawana: The tops and bottom positions have been 
9046
9047set by you guys. And so nothing will change from till we now enter the 
9048
9049negs days. It's just about setting tactics and who says what. So the 
9050
9051meeting to actually discuss and review how far we have got will be the 
9052
9053one on the 23rd December and likely early January.
905412/12/2015, 12:53 - A Collins: 23rd, meeting or VC?
905512/12/2015, 13:15 - A Sami: If we are meeting tomorrow morning, like 
9056
9057Chris, I can do 08:00-09:00 before my shift.
9058
9059Amjad
906012/12/2015, 13:40 - L J Davis: 8am for me please (can't believe I'm 
9061
9062saying that!)
906312/12/2015, 15:07 - M Redman: I can do either as long as no one judges 
9064
9065a onesie at 8am.
906612/12/2015, 15:07 - A Collins: Fy2 exec onesies? Ok
906712/12/2015, 19:29 - A Yassaee: Friends bday tonight so 8am is by no 
9068
9069means a guarantee but I'll try.
907012/12/2015, 19:29 - A Collins: Join the onsie club
907112/12/2015, 19:30 - A Yassaee: Stop trying to make it a thing
907212/12/2015, 19:31 - A Collins: ??
907312/12/2015, 19:35 - A Collier So 8am is 3am for me so I probably won't 
9074
9075be joining you
907612/12/2015, 19:35 - A Collins: Not even in a onesie?
907712/12/2015, 19:36 - A Collier It is far to hot for a onesie!
907812/12/2015, 19:36 - M Redman: It IS a thing Adam dw!!??
907912/12/2015, 19:42 - A Yassaee: Melody, stop enabling.
908012/12/2015, 19:42 - A Collins: She's on psych now, it's her job ??
908112/12/2015, 20:27 - K Mohan: Can we decide which number we are phoning 
9082
9083in on tonight rather than at 7.59 tomorrow. And can we know the Scopia 
9084
9085as well as the direct phone in number please?
908612/12/2015, 20:27 - A Collins: Spoilsport
908712/12/2015, 20:27 - K Mohan: Huh?
908812/12/2015, 21:24 - A Sami: I echo Kitty's reasonable idea, and indeed, 
9089
9090if we are meeting at 08:00 in the morning and not in the evening.
909112/12/2015, 21:29 - E McCourt: I don't know what numbers Johann had 
9092
9093planned on using. But I know he's at a wedding so I expect his response 
9094
9095will be pretty late/tomorrow. Or I suppose we could just pick one as a 
9096
9097back up?
909812/12/2015, 21:32 - K Mohan: <Media omitted>
909912/12/2015, 21:32 - K Mohan: How about this one? (First one I found)
910012/12/2015, 21:33 - A Collins: Sounds good to me :)
910112/12/2015, 21:33 - E McCourt: Ok so yes, this one until directed 
9102
9103otherwise.
910412/12/2015, 22:33 - J Malawana: Sorry. Not really able to chat much but 
9105
9106that looks fine. Let's use that
910713/12/2015, 08:00 - J Malawana: Everyone awake
910813/12/2015, 08:00 - A Sami: Yes
910913/12/2015, 08:01 - A Collins: J'arrive
911013/12/2015, 08:01 - A Sami: Well, I am
911113/12/2015, 08:01 - D Rouse: Sort working 0800-1800 will see you this 
9112
9113evening
911413/12/2015, 08:01 - D Rouse: sorry*
911513/12/2015, 08:01 - J Malawana: Amjad you calling in?
911613/12/2015, 08:42 - M Redman: Oops brb
911713/12/2015, 09:03 - A Sami: Thank you, Johann, for the meeting. Good to 
9118
9119see some of you this morning.
9120Back to work now!
912113/12/2015, 09:04 - A Collins: Bye Amjad, keep well!
912213/12/2015, 09:15 - C Sheridan: Got to go to handover, will call back 
9123
9124if still going. Thanks
912513/12/2015, 09:19 - A Collins: All done now
912613/12/2015, 09:19 - A Collins: Hope everyone has civilised Sundays.
912713/12/2015, 09:31 - B Roberts: Amjad, I felt so guilty still being in 
9128
9129bed when you're at work! My excuse is that I haven't been feeling well 
9130
9131and may be brewing an otitis media...
913213/12/2015, 09:43 - A Sami: Bethan, thank you for your sympathy. I have 
9133
9134got sinusitis as well. I hope you get better soon.
9135
9136#iaminworkjeremy
913713/12/2015, 09:50 - J Malawana: You guys should see Ellen! Honestly 
9138
9139that girl is a work machine! She stayed up like 23 hours or something 
9140
9141during the negs planning. Was scary.
914213/12/2015, 09:54 - A Sami: I agree, Johann. Ellen is a soldier.  know 
9143
9144the feeling myself. When I went to the assessment, I was awake for  32 
9145
9146hours. It is one of the essential criteria for A&E interview!
914713/12/2015, 09:57 - K Mohan: Yup. Agree. Ellen deserves a medal or a 
9148
9149snack or a power drink something... Just keep her sane, Yoyo. The rest 
9150
9151of you are expendable. :)
915213/12/2015, 10:02 - L J Davis: Hmmm. Is there any chance of locking in 
9153
9154an annual pay uplift - if we know that the envelope is fixed... And 
9155
9156then we don't need to Ddrb each year...?
915713/12/2015, 10:02 - J Malawana: That's already in the plan as well
915813/12/2015, 10:03 - J Malawana: But you still need ddrb. But locking in 
9159
9160some form of agreement about the uplift needs to happen. It also needs 
9161
9162to be locked in without the other side having the ability to dictate 
9163
9164what the uplift is specifically used for.
916513/12/2015, 10:04 - J Malawana: Has to be across the board uplifts. Not 
9166
9167targeted budgets.
916813/12/2015, 10:21 - L J Davis: 10% annual pay increase for everyone! 
9169
9170Hurray! ??
917113/12/2015, 11:08 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Apologies for missing the meeting 
9172
9173this morning. If there is any chance of a brief summary here at some 
9174
9175point that would b great. If not possible no probs.
917613/12/2015, 11:17 - D Tooth: I think Johann is planning a re run later
917713/12/2015, 18:08 - E McCourt: 7pm Exec take 2.
917813/12/2015, 18:09 - D Tooth: Is it for everyone or just those that 
9179
9180missed out this morning
918113/12/2015, 18:09 - E McCourt: Just those who missed this morning
918213/12/2015, 18:09 - J Malawana: I am just going over what was discussed 
9183
9184this morning.
918513/12/2015, 18:09 - D Tooth: Great thanks and enjoy
918613/12/2015, 18:11 - A Collins: Cool
918713/12/2015, 18:12 - C Bell: Sorry I was watching the pope - what 
9188
9189number?
919013/12/2015, 18:13 - E McCourt: <Media omitted>
919113/12/2015, 18:13 - E McCourt: I think this was used earlier
919213/12/2015, 18:13 - C Bell: Merci
919313/12/2015, 18:27 - A Yassaee: Thanks
919413/12/2015, 22:19 - D Tooth: What's the pope done Charlie? I was at 
9195
9196church!
919713/12/2015, 22:37 - C Bell: He opened a door. It was more exciting than 
9198
9199it sounds, promise...
920013/12/2015, 22:38 - D Tooth: Oh yes!!
920113/12/2015, 22:50 - C Castles: Was it a metaphorical door in your mind?
920214/12/2015, 08:47 - C Bell: ;)
920314/12/2015, 11:02 - Aaron Borbora changed this group's icon
920414/12/2015, 18:08 - L J Davis: Any particular reason we've now got an 
9205
9206all male photo?
920714/12/2015, 18:42 - J Malawana: Aaron has got excited by the GPC wall 
9208
9209of shame.
921014/12/2015, 18:57 - D Rouse changed this group's icon
921114/12/2015, 18:57 - D Rouse: I have changed this to make it more 
9212
9213acceptable
921414/12/2015, 18:58 - A Sami: It is nice to have an accepting WhatsApp 
9215
9216group :)
921714/12/2015, 18:59 - D Tooth: What GPC wall of shame? The photos in the 
9218
9219cabin?
922014/12/2015, 19:09 - J Malawana: Yes
922114/12/2015, 19:50 - Aaron Borbora changed this group's icon
922214/12/2015, 20:35 - A Collins: Aaron :(
922314/12/2015, 21:27 - D Tooth: They look very dapper!!
922414/12/2015, 21:27 - Z Greaves: What photo it's gone? Can someone repost 
9225
9226not as a group photo
922714/12/2015, 21:29 - A Borbora: <Media omitted>
922814/12/2015, 21:29 - L J Davis: Oh I don't mind! I'm just like a man 
9229
9230anyway. Except the being a woman ??
923114/12/2015, 21:30 - Z Greaves: I like the caption
923214/12/2015, 21:31 - L J Davis: I like the name Solomon Wand. its a bit 
9233
9234Harry Potter, I think?
923514/12/2015, 21:31 - Z Greaves: Just think of them as differently 
9236
9237endowed women LJD :P
923814/12/2015, 21:32 - L J Davis: Like, lesser women, Zoe?
923914/12/2015, 21:32 - Z Greaves: Precisely!
924014/12/2015, 21:35 - A Borbora: Solly set up the DDRB. Dunno if that's 
9241
9242to his credit
924314/12/2015, 21:40 - A Collins: Can we address the pressing issue that 
9244
9245Aaron deleted the powerpuff girls?
924614/12/2015, 21:40 - A Collins: Its obviously oppression.
924715/12/2015, 00:10 - D Rouse: What's wrong with the power puffs
924815/12/2015, 00:28 - A Collier They are all girls. Can we have some 
9249
9250balance here!?! Bloody female privilege ??
925115/12/2015, 00:37 - J Malawana: Exec if we developed a strategy that 
9252
9253tied the DH up in knots for the next 16-18 months so we try not lose 
9254
9255pay progression a change in premium time, and then we ended up dragging 
9256
9257it on till leadership election, what would happen?
925815/12/2015, 00:37 - J Malawana: I think that would ultimately be the 
9259
9260only to retain those two points.
926115/12/2015, 00:39 - J Malawana: It's an extreme position but one that 
9262
9263may have merit.
926415/12/2015, 01:38 - C Sheridan: I can see the point but wonder how 
9265
9266viable an option it will be? I assume NHSE will be hellbent on getting 
9267
9268this done and no heel-dragging will be permitted. I cant imagine this 
9269
9270being likely, certainly not without us ending up taking IA as part of 
9271
9272keeping the wagons circling that long. What are you thinking Johann?
927315/12/2015, 06:50 - A Collins: I don't really think it would be worth 
9274
9275it for pay progression. 
9276
9277Plain time I would think it more useful for, and if we really think 
9278
9279that after a change in leadership we could keep it or even reduce it to 
9280
9281a normal working day that would be fantastic, however would we be 
9282
9283risking the current opportunity that (I think) we have to quite 
9284
9285fundamentally change how we are paid by getting pay for all work done 
9286
9287and by getting SPA etc included in our work schedule? Becuase to my 
9288
9289mind that itself could be the really big win from these negs
929015/12/2015, 07:02 - Z Greaves: I think this is a bad idea.  At the 
9291
9292minute they've been burnt and realise we have a mandate, by waiting to 
9293
9294work with different people we risk losing that advantage.  It also 
9295
9296risks setting the process back and our having to return almost to 
9297
9298square one which just unnecessarily prolongs it all, and what's to say 
9299
9300the next lot will be any better?
930115/12/2015, 07:18 - J Malawana: Ok. Cool. I think I will set out on the 
9302
9303exec listserver some scenarios just so people can start getting their 
9304
9305heads around them.
930615/12/2015, 07:19 - J Malawana: Not sure when exactly so please don't 
9307
9308become impatient. But will do when can so you all have some time to 
9309
9310think things through.
931115/12/2015, 07:56 - L J Davis: Leadership election = new Tory leader? 
9312
9313Not sure we'd gain anything from a change of leadership. 
9314A change of government, maybe; a change of leadership, no.
9315HOWEVER dragging this out *may* have merit. If you're suggesting the 
9316
9317current contract remains in place & we build to improve.
931815/12/2015, 07:57 - D Rouse: Huge gamble. We expected coalition this 
9319
9320year, instead we got pure blue.
932115/12/2015, 07:59 - D Rouse: On LJDs point would membership want the 
9322
9323'status quo plus' instead of a new contract ?  Not sure  we could sell 
9324
9325that.
932615/12/2015, 08:00 - L J Davis: I also worry about making provision for 
9327
9328"training" in the contract... Not because it shouldn't be there, but 
9329
9330when Shree was chair there was lots of talk from nhse about paying for 
9331
9332'service' time and making 'training' time something that was either not 
9333
9334paid, or that trainees actually paid a fee to benefit from!!! Hence it 
9335
9336makes me twitchy.
933715/12/2015, 08:01 - L J Davis: ??rockin' all over the world??
933815/12/2015, 08:02 - L J Davis: *lots* of people want *better* from the 
9339
9340contract (new or old). I'm more at the point of seeing it as disaster 
9341
9342mitigation at the moment...
934315/12/2015, 08:02 - C Bell: Hi Johann, please don't let that letter re 
9344
9345nurses go out without student sigs too. It makes us look incredibly bad 
9346
9347and not united if we're not part of it
934815/12/2015, 08:06 - A Collins: Does anyone really think NHSE/DH atm 
9349
9350think that they could get away with charging us to train? 
9351When the potential is to offer us full pay and SPA time, I feel like 
9352
9353we're passing by a big opportunity to ignore that. 
9354
9355Let's also not forget that membership now know what we've been offered 
9356
9357in terms of pay for all work done and we'd be visibly passing that up 
9358
9359for the status quo
936015/12/2015, 08:16 - L J Davis: Tbh, I think the extension of plain time 
9361
9362mitigates almost any of the positives...
936315/12/2015, 08:18 - L J Davis: & the combo of loss of pay progression & 
9364
9365extension of plain time makes new contract so family unfriendly it'll 
9366
9367see massive attrition of anyone with a family...
9368Or wanting a life, really. ??
936915/12/2015, 08:49 - J Malawana: Charlie that's fine, just make it a 
9370
9371joint letter and sign it.
937215/12/2015, 08:55 - A Collins: LJ I think the discussion we had before 
9373
9374about finding creative ways to limit weekend/ooh working that allow the 
9375
9376govt to extend plain time without grossly affecting our working pattern 
9377
9378might help?
937915/12/2015, 09:03 - K Mohan: Just to say "status quo plus" is not the 
9380
9381"status quo". 
9382
9383I also think that the membership wants different things. That's one of 
9384
9385the reasons why we have previously not issued a draft model contract.
938615/12/2015, 09:11 - A Collins: No you're right, but I think what Johann 
9387
9388is suggesting doing is going to result in more status quo and very 
9389
9390little plus.
939115/12/2015, 10:07 - D Rouse: Ahhhh Kitty semantics ;-)
939215/12/2015, 12:38 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Just seen this thread. Will add 
9393
9394my thoughts latr...at the TUC (thanks exec!) and going bk to work aftr.
939515/12/2015, 12:44 - K Mohan: I'm not trying to highlight semantics. 
9396
9397This came up at our RJDC meeting last week. Many people want a better 
9398
9399contract than the terms we currently have but we need to be clear this 
9400
9401isn't the same as asking for the status quo.
940215/12/2015, 13:04 - D Rouse: Okay a contract primarily based upon the 
9403
9404current contract
940515/12/2015, 13:04 - D Rouse: But if we spin this out
940615/12/2015, 13:04 - D Rouse: We may have the current contract for quite 
9407
9408some time
940915/12/2015, 13:10 - D Rouse: Surely our decision should be based 
9410
9411primarily on the icm survey results
941215/12/2015, 13:11 - D Rouse: Rather than our own samples from meeting 
9413
9414with groups ?
941515/12/2015, 15:36 - L J Davis: Hello! Anyone know start time of exec 
9416
9417next week? (I'm not near my puter)
941815/12/2015, 16:02 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Hi david/ljd/johan/charlie. R.e 
9419
9420the letter in support of the nursing bursaries could we mention the 
9421
9422protest which the nursing students are organising for the 9th jan and 
9423
9424say docs plan to attend. I am i  contact with the nursing student  
9425
9426organisers and would b  happy to put u guys in contact too if u are not 
9427
9428already.
942915/12/2015, 22:45 - D Tooth: I think was 1 ljd
943015/12/2015, 22:59 - M Redman: <Media omitted>
943115/12/2015, 22:59 - M Redman: Trouble in paradise... Kitty gets bored 
9432
9433of Bethan and resorts to iPod.
943415/12/2015, 23:15 - C Sheridan: What a cute picture. Dont let the Sun 
9435
9436get hold: Drs and their "lavish lifestyles" can afford ipods!
943715/12/2015, 23:32 - L Boyle: <Media omitted>
943815/12/2015, 23:32 - L Boyle: See this is why I never put my shisha pipe 
9439
9440on Facebook
944115/12/2015, 23:32 - L Boyle: I'd be joining Collins on the front page
944215/12/2015, 23:33 - L Boyle: Lothian doctor flies to UAE to 
9443
9444sample/inhale basically via neb some interesting nameless substances
944515/12/2015, 23:34 - A Collins: Far too accurate. That photo would be 
9446
9447accompanied by 
9448"Borders Surgical Trainee Luke Boyle has flown to Russia to inject 
9449
9450methadone as shown in this photo"
945115/12/2015, 23:38 - C Sheridan: Yes. On second thoughts the Sun might 
9452
9453like that one better. We'll be deporting you back across the water Dr 
9454
9455Boyle!
945616/12/2015, 00:15 - L Boyle: ??...& I'm not going anywhere chief.
945716/12/2015, 01:18 - A Collins: Pity ??
945816/12/2015, 07:39 - K Mohan: :) as I've just replied on FB, Melo. I was 
9459
9460listening to the audio guide... Using my headphones (as was Bethy).
946116/12/2015, 07:53 - B Roberts: "Jingoistic doctors insist on listening 
9462
9463to English language audio guide rather than embrace local culture"
946416/12/2015, 08:01 - D Rouse: Haha
9465
9466Or the sun
9467
9468'Luxury lifestyle of Kitty Mohan;  Dr Mohan is seen using an iPhone - 
9469
9470SACK HER SACK HER NOW!!'
947116/12/2015, 22:03 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Hi all. R.e momentum and the 
9472
9473nursing bursary protest I have just posted on exec listserver for ur 
9474
9475advice. Plz check email when get a mo.
947616/12/2015, 23:17 - J Malawana: Anyone know what the LRC emergency 
9477
9478meeting on the 22nd December is about?
947916/12/2015, 23:17 - D Rouse: I couldn't. Make the LRC meeting
948016/12/2015, 23:18 - D Rouse: However I believe it's to update juniors 
9481
9482and consultants and make their voice heard
948316/12/2015, 23:19 - A Collins: Tim probably knows?
948416/12/2015, 23:39 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Its a 'special assembly meeting 
9485
9486in support of the junior doctors' called by the LRC.
948716/12/2015, 23:39 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Will prob go along
948817/12/2015, 07:02 - K Mohan: Unless David organised a deputy, South 
9489
9490Thames didn't send anyone to the meeting a couple of days ago but I can 
9491
9492ask Jackie Applebee who's speaking/what's planned. The last assembly 
9493
9494meeting was good- maybe 120 people - not that many juniors a real mix 
9495
9496across bops.
949717/12/2015, 07:33 - K Mohan: <Media omitted>
949817/12/2015, 07:34 - K Mohan: Basically what we knew.
949917/12/2015, 07:47 - J Malawana: Can you tell her that I will come 
9500
9501myself and speak. Rather than the misinformation I have started to see 
9502
9503being put out.
950417/12/2015, 08:08 - K Mohan: Of course.
950517/12/2015, 08:35 - C Castles: What misinformation is going out?
950617/12/2015, 09:05 - D Rouse: I have already rung
950717/12/2015, 09:05 - D Rouse: Andrew Barton who is the regional 
9508
9509coordinator asking him to make contact with you
951017/12/2015, 09:05 - D Rouse: Johann
951117/12/2015, 09:05 - D Rouse: Yesterday
951217/12/2015, 09:06 - D Rouse: I jut get impression no one reads what u 
9513
9514write lol
951517/12/2015, 10:39 - K Mohan: Don't worry David. Jackie Applebee is in 
9516
9517direct contact with Johann.
951817/12/2015, 10:48 - D Tooth: I am in GPC with Jackie today. Is it 
9519
9520possible to send the email in the jdc Listserver and/or to the London 
9521
9522and nearby rjdc'?
952317/12/2015, 11:04 - K Mohan: I've just emailed Jackie, Donna. I got the 
9524
9525email via my division only. I have personally have no issue with going 
9526
9527out beyond London but we have previously been told that or KSS trainees 
9528
9529cannot attend so (as south thames co-chair) I'd have to insist they are 
9530
9531included as many more of them live in London than eastern trainees as 
9532
9533far as I'm aware. (Andrew Barton may yet freak btw).
953417/12/2015, 11:05 - K Mohan: (He's very London specific) :)
953517/12/2015, 11:12 - D Tooth: Yes of course, makes sense
953617/12/2015, 11:18 - K Mohan: I think Jackie has said to just open it 
9537
9538up. I can forward you  and Harriet the Divisional invite which has gone 
9539
9540out but just to say the email says that the decision re further IA will 
9541
9542be taken on 23rd which I didn't think was either necessarily public 
9543
9544knowledge or infact true... I've sent my own email out to South thames 
9545
9546for this reason.
954717/12/2015, 11:18 - K Mohan: I'm not sure how or why they think that 
9548
9549there will be an announcement on the 23rd...
955017/12/2015, 11:19 - D Tooth: Well yes that's what I thought. I received 
9551
9552it from Andrew Barton too
955317/12/2015, 11:34 - C Castles: I assume someone has heard about our 
9554
9555meeting on 23rd then.
955617/12/2015, 11:35 - C Castles: Given that a decision has to be public 
9557
9558by 6th Jan, they have maybe just assumed there will be an 
9559
9560announcement... Maybe?
956117/12/2015, 11:40 - D Tooth: Can I just ask if anyone else has still my 
9562
9563received the survey. I appreciate the deadline was yesterday. I emailed 
9564
9565several times to the relevant people and have still not had the survey. 
9566
9567The emails were responded to. I am I nerves this may h e happened to 
9568
9569other trainees and am more.
957017/12/2015, 12:23 - A Sami: It happenned to other trainees as well, 
9571
9572Donna.
957317/12/2015, 13:11 - K Mohan: Maybe they thought there would be an 
9574
9575alternative "Johann's Christmas message" announcing a strike... Maybe 
9576
9577there will be??
957817/12/2015, 15:51 - A Collins: Will Johann be doing c4s alternative 
9579
9580Xmas message this year? Would like to see that.
958117/12/2015, 19:00 - M Redman: <Media omitted>
958217/12/2015, 19:02 - M Redman: <Media omitted>
958317/12/2015, 19:02 - M Redman: <Media omitted>
958417/12/2015, 19:03 - M Redman: Nb last para 're contract proposal in New 
9585
9586year
9587
9588Interesting.
958917/12/2015, 19:09 - K Mohan: That's the CC timetable I presume.
959017/12/2015, 19:09 - K Mohan: (Although ours may now be similar).
959117/12/2015, 23:46 - J Malawana: Ok so if we want to improve pay 
9592
9593progression and reduce the potential gender pay gap issues there is a 
9594
9595solution which medics will potentially hate as we all love hierarchies. 
9596
9597But if you raise the starting salary enough and make the progression 
9598
9599points nominal then you put money in people's pockets earlier and you 
9600
9601minimise the progression issue.
960217/12/2015, 23:48 - C Castles: Another midnight discussion?
960317/12/2015, 23:51 - J Malawana: Sorry
960417/12/2015, 23:54 - C Castles: It would reduce some of the problem, 
9605
9606partially as the pay increases would be so small they wouldn't be a 
9607
9608problem. It would likely be done by increasing basic pay, meaning more 
9609
9610pension contributions - also meaning people hit their lifetime earning 
9611
9612max earlier, as well as paying more in to it each month. It doesn't 
9613
9614really solve the discrimination issue, just minimises it. Nhse were 
9615
9616keen, as were we previously, to avoid a flat pay scale - do you think 
9617
9618they'd go for it?
961917/12/2015, 23:55 - C Castles: Haha, no need to apologise - i do my 
9620
9621best thinking late at night and am useless in the morning
962217/12/2015, 23:56 - J Malawana: I am more worried about whether you lot 
9623
9624would go for it :-).
962517/12/2015, 23:56 - J Malawana: If we can make the numbers work I think 
9626
9627we could sell it to the otherside.
962817/12/2015, 23:56 - J Malawana: Maybe.
962917/12/2015, 23:57 - C Castles: Just saw your email saying the same 
9630
9631things :-)
963217/12/2015, 23:57 - J Malawana: Minimising discrimination better than 
9633
9634maximising :-)
963517/12/2015, 23:57 - C Castles: Yeah, I think we could sell it easy 
9636
9637enoufg
963817/12/2015, 23:58 - C Castles: The hierarchy in training is based more 
9639
9640on experience than income
964117/12/2015, 23:59 - J Malawana: Shall we do an exec catch up at some 
9642
9643point this weekend? I am knackered. Am sure the other negs people are 
9644
9645as well as doing 16hour days. But be good to have one of our 
9646
9647counselling sessions. Always feel a bit better after them :-)
964818/12/2015, 00:00 - C Castles: We're seeing santa on Saturday. Sunday?
964918/12/2015, 00:01 - J Malawana: Morning may work
965018/12/2015, 00:01 - J Malawana: Will see what others say.
965118/12/2015, 00:02 - C Castles: Everyone else must have better things to 
9652
9653do tonight
965418/12/2015, 00:10 - A Sami: For me, either 
9655Saturday day time
9656Or
9657Sunday evening
9658Good night
965918/12/2015, 00:11 - A Collins: Sunday ok, but prefs not bloody 0800 
9660
9661please!
966218/12/2015, 00:11 - C Castles: Concur with Adam
966318/12/2015, 00:12 - A Collins: Also y'all need to see star wars.
966418/12/2015, 00:13 - A Collier I can do any time over the weekend.
966518/12/2015, 00:14 - A Collins: I'm not sure how I feel about flattening 
9666
9667pay. I want experience to be recognised as being awesome. I want my med 
9668
9669reg to be paid quite  a bit more than me to haul my ass out of deep 
9670
9671deep shit.
967218/12/2015, 00:15 - A Collier An almost flattened pay structure reduced 
9673
9674the impact of non-progression but hits those engaged in longer training 
9675
9676hardest. I have to see we briefly considered this early in the last 
9677
9678round of negotiations and rejected the concept as being unacceptable to 
9679
9680the membership.
968118/12/2015, 00:15 - A Collins: Bur that's quite an instinctive 
9682
9683response.
968418/12/2015, 00:16 - A Collier If I've understood the concept being 
9685
9686proposed this in essence isn't a new idea but one we previously 
9687
9688considered and rejected.
968918/12/2015, 00:18 - A Borbora: It's my weekend off as the boss well 
9690
9691knows!
969218/12/2015, 00:21 - J Malawana: Lottie?
969318/12/2015, 00:26 - C Castles: By the way, my email is somewhat tongue 
9694
9695in cheek
969618/12/2015, 00:37 - C Castles: Ahh, 12,000 emails deleted in the last 
9697
9698week. I feel lighter already
969918/12/2015, 01:19 - L Boyle: I am also against the idea of flattening 
9700
9701the pay structure for the reason Adam so ably described in colourful 
9702
9703language
970418/12/2015, 01:19 - L Boyle: Plus it doesn't incentivise 'getting on 
9705
9706with training' which is one of the wider problems we're having at the 
9707
9708moment
970918/12/2015, 04:07 - ?L Elliott: Lottie what?
971018/12/2015, 04:07 - ?L Elliott: I'm in Yorkshire
971118/12/2015, 04:07 - ?L Elliott: At the weekend
971218/12/2015, 05:34 - K Mohan: Andrew is right we rejected this last time 
9713
9714round. It's in the crude models on the spreadsheet Andrew, Tom and I 
9715
9716developed in Jan 2014. 
9717
9718JDC/members were absolutely clear consistently for the last two years 
9719
9720that they wanted annual pay progression even if it was small (ignore if 
9721
9722they can have it). They prob have now reconciled to pay by core/higher 
9723
9724but to say that an f2/ct1-2 could be paid the same as a st6 is galling 
9725
9726to most.
9727
9728I also thought we asked the membership this.
9729
9730Sat is better than sun for me. And daytime and nights better then eves.
973118/12/2015, 05:46 - K Mohan: We also did a pros/cons table for each 
9732
9733model we considered. I thought that whilst the flattened pay scale may 
9734
9735help "solve" gender issues (I think it could make everyone as badly 
9736
9737off) - it caused problems for other groups ie those on longer training 
9738
9739programmes - I seem to remember surgeons lose out badly.(there were 
9740
9741other groups hit I think the longer training programmes just sticks in 
9742
9743the mind).
974418/12/2015, 05:50 - K Mohan: (You should have all this previous work 
9745
9746logged somewhere at BMA house. If not it is likely to be on the old 
9747
9748contract negs listserver (and if desperate I actually have the old 
9749
9750flipchart we used in my flat although I think we ripped off those pages 
9751
9752to discuss at the BMA.)
975318/12/2015, 06:25 - K Mohan: Also if you had only a nominal 
9754
9755differential between the pay of an F1/ct1 and an ST6-8 who would you 
9756
9757rota for the OOH/"premium time work". You can make the most use of a 
9758
9759cheap senior reg basically acting close to consultant level. You could 
9760
9761have registrars assisting consultants to deliver that "consultant led 
9762
9763seven day service"- creating all the shadow rotas you may need to deal 
9764
9765with winter pressures/times the hospital gets busy. 
9766
9767You could even extrapolate this to say OOH is only something you do as 
9768
9769you progress through training with more unbanded jobs earlier to create 
9770
9771an artificial pay differential. 
9772
9773Needless to say I don't think this is a good idea but I'll stop now. :)
977418/12/2015, 06:33 - D Tooth: Weekend is difficult for a catch up but 
9775
9776would prefer Saturday
977718/12/2015, 07:45 - D Rouse: What kinda numbers you thinking
977818/12/2015, 07:45 - D Rouse: Think depends
977918/12/2015, 07:45 - D Rouse: On that
978018/12/2015, 08:17 - Z Greaves: Think it depends on how much flatter 
9781
9782we're talking ... I think some degree of flattening would be acceptable 
9783
9784but not a complete flattening eg you could bracket f1-2, ct1-2, and 
9785
9786str, and sell that I think with less gradation overall than in the 
9787
9788current system, I think almost all would have to see a rise in basic as 
9789
9790well for it to work
9791
9792As for weekend meeting I'm at carol service 17.00 Sunday but otherwise 
9793
9794free
979518/12/2015, 08:27 - L J Davis: Hmmm. I'm prob about at the weekend. 
9796
9797Except Sunday morning...
979818/12/2015, 08:44 - K Mohan: <Media omitted>
979918/12/2015, 08:45 - M Redman: ????
980018/12/2015, 08:47 - A Sami: Speculation at best, leaking roof at worst!
980118/12/2015, 08:48 - M Redman: I'm free all weekend near enough. 
9802
9803Preferably not Sun 1000-1300 or Sun evening though
980418/12/2015, 09:07 - J Malawana: Well not really that speculative. The 
9805
9806exec meeting on the 23rd is not a secret.
980718/12/2015, 09:07 - J Malawana: It will be a decision point.
980818/12/2015, 09:08 - J Malawana: In fact if anything it's useful it's 
9809
9810generally out there as keeps the pressure on the other side.
981118/12/2015, 09:09 - J Malawana: I wrote to the Secretary of State 
9812
9813basically saying that he had to empower his side and make everyone 
9814
9815aware that the exec meeting is on the 23rd and he had to take account 
9816
9817of your decision point and timetable.
981818/12/2015, 09:09 - J Malawana: Nothing like a bit of pressure to focus 
9819
9820minds.
982118/12/2015, 09:10 - J Malawana: I need to other side to know we aren't 
9822
9823fucking around and they aren't going relax.
982418/12/2015, 09:41 - K Mohan: But (for our info not publicly facing), 
9825
9826surely the decisions need to take place on the 6th unless it really has 
9827
9828all gone tits up. Otherwise surely we're just going to say it's not 
9829
9830good enough not to take IA.
983118/12/2015, 09:44 - J Malawana: We are still working through legal 
9832
9833advice.
983418/12/2015, 09:45 - J Malawana: New legal advice from yesterday 
9835
9836suggests we need a decision earlier.
983718/12/2015, 09:46 - A Collins: Ummmmm why?
983818/12/2015, 09:46 - J Malawana: Something about notice periods and 
9839
9840injunctions.
984118/12/2015, 09:47 - J Malawana: I think the lawyers are saying we need 
9842
9843a decision by the end of the 4th. We are moving everything forward to 
9844
9845tie them down before Christmas.
984618/12/2015, 09:48 - A Collins: Fair play. Pain but I guess it puts the 
9847
9848pressure on! Good work with the letter to DH :)
984918/12/2015, 10:10 - K Mohan: Are you meeting them between Christmas and 
9850
9851new year?
985218/12/2015, 11:18 - J Malawana: We may have to force them. There is a 
9853
9854real problem on both sides.
985518/12/2015, 11:18 - J Malawana: But it may take me Danny and Tim trying 
9856
9857to bash out agreements between Christmas and new year if necessary.
985818/12/2015, 13:08 - K Mohan: Have we decided a time to speak this 
9859
9860weekend (if we are)...
986118/12/2015, 13:09 - K Mohan: (I guess I'm really asking Johann)...
986218/12/2015, 13:10 - J Malawana: Can we talk Saturday morning.
986318/12/2015, 13:10 - J Malawana: Ideally 8am.
986418/12/2015, 13:10 - J Malawana: :-)
986518/12/2015, 13:14 - L J Davis: Fucking hell.
986618/12/2015, 13:14 - L J Davis: 8?!?!?
986718/12/2015, 13:15 - A Collins: Lol, Johann, stop
986818/12/2015, 13:16 - L J Davis: It's actually ok with me.
986918/12/2015, 13:23 - D Rouse: 8am fine by me
987018/12/2015, 13:30 - C Bell: Yup
987118/12/2015, 13:34 - K Mohan: Sat am best for me. As my flight gets back 
9872
9873at about midnight today 2am is preferable for me. Presume that's ok?
987418/12/2015, 13:35 - K Mohan: :) can we say later than 8am pretty 
9875
9876please?
987718/12/2015, 13:36 - D Rouse: You been off using the EMA credit card 
9878
9879again kitty
988018/12/2015, 13:38 - K Mohan: I think I'm allowed a couple of days away 
9881
9882but sadly financed by Bethan not EJD. 
9883
9884Weirdly my credit card hasn't arrived yet. I think someone at have 
9885
9886intercepted my post...
988718/12/2015, 13:39 - D Rouse: mr hunt? ;-)
988818/12/2015, 13:39 - D Rouse: Or the sun lol
988918/12/2015, 13:39 - D Rouse: "Junior doctors secret credit card shame"
989018/12/2015, 13:39 - K Mohan: I was thinking Johann. Seriously, I'm not 
9891
9892sure why it's worth of comment that I had four days away for the first 
9893
9894annual leave actually used for a hol in over a year...
989518/12/2015, 13:40 - K Mohan: Actually since April 2014.
989618/12/2015, 13:40 - D Rouse: ;-) it's not you should take more
989718/12/2015, 13:41 - A Sami: I am on shift till midnight. I echo Kitty's 
9898
9899request for 02:00 please?
9900
9901On a serious note though, if it has to be 08:00 (and not later like 
9902
990309:00 or something), then I will be there.
9904
9905Amjad
990618/12/2015, 14:52 - L J Davis: Kitty, you're *always* on holiday!!! 
9907
9908Jetting off to bristol and other exciting locations!
990918/12/2015, 15:00 - K Mohan: I'm currently on a podium signing some 
9910
9911document on behalf of all junior doctors in Europe. Edwin Borman is sat 
9912
9913next to me. This is weird and not holiday like
991418/12/2015, 15:02 - K Mohan: <Media omitted>
991518/12/2015, 15:10 - L J Davis: You look happy ?? that's the important 
9916
9917thing...
991818/12/2015, 15:13 - K Mohan: Apparently I look far too happy... Like 
9919
9920I'm up to something...or baiting the medical student next to me... 
9921
9922Neither of course is true.
992318/12/2015, 15:14 - J Malawana: God kitty I can see why negotiations 
9924
9925with bill McMillan is so painful. This man is about 3 minutes from 
9926
9927getting punched by me
992818/12/2015, 15:16 - E McCourt: I am considering a not insignificantly 
9929
9930violent moment
993118/12/2015, 15:16 - K Mohan: Yup. Although he does tell you the stuff 
9932
9933he's not meant to say. So can be useful.
993418/12/2015, 15:16 - K Mohan: But Ellen you presumably want to kill 
9935
9936Johann... ;)
993718/12/2015, 15:19 - E McCourt: A touch of wanton slaughter. I'm not 
9938
9939fussy.
994018/12/2015, 15:21 - L J Davis: Even I find bill very wearing. And I'm 
9941
9942just angelical ??
994318/12/2015, 15:54 - H Carter: Yeah sat morning okay.
994418/12/2015, 15:54 - H Carter: Kitty, stop baiting medical students.
994518/12/2015, 15:57 - K Mohan: Yes Harry. Sorry Harry <hangs head in 
9946
9947shame>
994818/12/2015, 16:04 - K Mohan: Johann, is it possible to know (before the 
9949
9950meeting) if the meeting on the 23rd is likely to be long or short (as 
9951
9952it's starting at 3pm now). Would be good to know for sure if worth 
9953
9954being there in person.
995518/12/2015, 16:05 - Z Greaves: I am revising tomorrow so if I have a 
9956
9957meeting to drag me out of bed for 8am then I'll have no excuse not to 
9958
9959study after ... in fact it's ideal ??
996018/12/2015, 16:07 - Z Greaves: I'll even promise not to share spoilers 
9961
9962from a certain film I'm off to see this evening ??
996318/12/2015, 16:09 - Zoe changed this group's icon
996418/12/2015, 16:16 - A Collins: I won't either. Even though I saw it. 
9965
9966And nearly saw it again.
996718/12/2015, 16:17 - K Mohan: I can do 8am btw. I just think it's a tad 
9968
9969(very) unreasonable for the second weekend in a row. And we're already 
9970
9971taking out time on the 23rd for a meeting of unspecified duration which 
9972
9973is possibly a decision making meeting and possibly not.
997418/12/2015, 16:24 - K Mohan: I appreciate that the alternative is just 
9975
9976not to attend/phone into these meetings. I'm currently resisting the 
9977
9978extreme urge to do just that as a matter of principle on the off-chance 
9979
9980that they may be somewhere on the 0-important scale(my theory being 
9981
9982that otherwise they wouldn't be being called).
998318/12/2015, 17:04 - J Malawana: I realise it's early it's just its a 
9984
9985teleconference and I have basically not seen either Sarah or Noah for 
9986
9987the whole week. So I would like to get this done so I can actually see 
9988
9989Noah.
999018/12/2015, 17:19 - K Mohan: I guess the point is whether the meeting 
9991
9992tomorrow is actually important and will take a long time rather then a 
9993
9994general catch up/chat at 8am. If it's just brief could we not say 0830 
9995
9996and (hope to) be done by 9am? I'm sure those of us not working all have 
9997
9998a million things to be getting on with.
999918/12/2015, 17:21 - K Mohan: Obviously if there is a lot of content 
10000
10001that may not be possible.
1000218/12/2015, 17:43 - K Mohan: I do realise I'm the only one kicking up a 
10003
10004fuss about this so prob best for you all to stick to 8am and I'll 
10005
10006decide tomorrow if I phone in around my other plans.
1000718/12/2015, 17:47 - A Yassaee: 6 hours sleep past 48 hours so 8 am is 
10008
10009probably a stretch too far me.
1001018/12/2015, 17:47 - A Collins: What have you been up to young man?
1001118/12/2015, 17:48 - A Yassaee: Ortho dinner yday, multiple project 
10012
10013deadlines the day before.
1001418/12/2015, 17:48 - A Collins: That's not as fun as it could have been 
10015
10016:(
1001718/12/2015, 17:48 - A Yassaee: What were you hoping for?
1001818/12/2015, 17:49 - A Collins: International spy missions?
1001918/12/2015, 17:49 - A Collins: Emergency stint as an astronaut?
1002018/12/2015, 18:02 - C Sheridan: Kitty i do share your views about 
10021
10022multiple meetings starting very early (or ending very late). I know we 
10023
10024need them a lot atm but id be keen we stick to them only if theres a 
10025
10026pressing need. Its easy for these to become habitual rather than 
10027
10028essential. However if one is going ahead like you i assume its 
10029
10030important and will endeavour to attend (pinning down a time sooner 
10031
10032rather than later would help with that). Johann you deserve some family 
10033
10034time - if it can wait til Weds just enjoy your weekend and tell us then 
10035
10036i'd say! Can do sat 8am if needed. (Also Johann between all the negs 
10037
10038and meetings be grateful if you could get around to answering my email 
10039
10040to you on Monday)
1004118/12/2015, 18:57 - C Castles: I can't make an 8am meeting tomorrow as 
10042
10043steph is working tonight so I'll be looking after the boys at that 
10044
10045time.
1004618/12/2015, 20:31 - D Tooth: 8am tomorrow is fine for me
1004718/12/2015, 21:02 - D Tooth: Johann I'm shattered and going to bed 
10048
10049soon. Can we. Infirm if we are meeting at 8am? Xx
1005018/12/2015, 21:03 - D Tooth: *confirm
1005118/12/2015, 21:16 - J Malawana: I will meet at 8am for anyone that can 
10052
10053meet
1005418/12/2015, 21:16 - D Tooth: Cool thanks for confirming, good excuse 
10055
10056for breakfast in bed again!! See you bright and early
1005718/12/2015, 21:28 - M Redman: <Media omitted>
1005818/12/2015, 21:28 - M Redman: Same again, yaah?
1005918/12/2015, 21:29 - D Tooth: Oh good thinking bat woman!!
1006018/12/2015, 21:50 - M Redman: <Media omitted>
1006118/12/2015, 21:51 - D Tooth: !!
1006218/12/2015, 23:01 - ?L Elliott: I've just finished a ridiculous set of 
10063
10064nights and am at home for fake Xmas so 8am meeting is out for me sorry. 
10065
10066??I can get the low down from Aaron.
1006718/12/2015, 23:58 - C Bell: Can we use scopia too?
1006818/12/2015, 23:59 - A Collier I think so, the Scopia details are on the 
10069
10070image Melody posted.
1007119/12/2015, 00:00 - C Bell: Perfecto thanks
1007219/12/2015, 07:58 - A Collins: Hello... 
10073Its me... 
10074I was wondering if after all these text you'd like to meet...
1007519/12/2015, 08:02 - J Malawana: Who is coming.
1007619/12/2015, 08:02 - J Malawana: We are online
1007719/12/2015, 08:02 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Coming in one min
1007819/12/2015, 08:03 - D Tooth: Me but Ido t think my internet is working. 
10079
10080May have to call in
1008119/12/2015, 08:03 - M Redman: I'm coming just struggling to connect to 
10082
10083interweb
1008419/12/2015, 08:07 - J Malawana: Donna coming?
1008519/12/2015, 08:13 - K Mohan: Does anyone know the IP address?
1008619/12/2015, 08:18 - D Rouse: What's the dial I
1008719/12/2015, 08:18 - D Rouse: In
1008819/12/2015, 08:18 - D Rouse: Anyone know the details please
1008919/12/2015, 08:18 - D Tooth: It's above from melody
1009019/12/2015, 08:18 - K Mohan: It's on this thread
1009119/12/2015, 08:19 - K Mohan: <Media omitted>
1009219/12/2015, 08:21 - Z Greaves: Yohann's looking a little ghostly this 
10093
10094morning
1009519/12/2015, 08:22 - Z Greaves: <Media omitted>
1009619/12/2015, 08:22 - Z Greaves: Sorry Johann - blame autocorrect
1009719/12/2015, 08:22 - Z Greaves: Or the fact it's 8am
1009819/12/2015, 08:23 - A Collins: Donna looks like she's in a very 
10099
10100carefully composed TV studio shot though! Good tree!
1010119/12/2015, 08:26 - D Tooth: Gary was having a lie in so it is the safe 
10102
10103spot away from the kids...sort of
1010419/12/2015, 08:31 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Ive got a question when right 
10105
10106time johann
1010719/12/2015, 08:38 - D Rouse: Can someone add me to the list please
1010819/12/2015, 08:41 - A Sami: David, I used this link webvc.bma.org.uk
10109Then entered 617012 to join via mobile
1011019/12/2015, 08:51 - A Sami: Can those of us who are not speaking mute 
10111
10112their speakers please?! Many thanks
1011319/12/2015, 08:51 - D Rouse: Am
10114I on the list
1011519/12/2015, 08:52 - K Mohan: No.
1011619/12/2015, 08:52 - K Mohan: Joking- yes
1011719/12/2015, 08:52 - D Tooth: I added you
1011819/12/2015, 09:03 - A Sami: If Johann not going through everyone to 
10119
10120speak, can I be added to the list of soeakers please?
1012119/12/2015, 09:14 - A Sami: If GP training is going to be 4 years then 
10122
10123there is no  problem (Sorry, I am joking!)
1012419/12/2015, 09:18 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Battery dying at this end and at 
10125
10126gf's so no charger. Catch up with you all next wk. Thanks for this 
10127
10128morning.
1012919/12/2015, 09:19 - A Collier London weighting isn't part of this 
10130
10131negotiation
1013219/12/2015, 09:27 - D Tooth: Yes amjad lets hope so!! Come along SHAPE
1013319/12/2015, 09:30 - M Redman: I love watching Collier's non verbal 
10134
10135communication
1013619/12/2015, 09:34 - Z Greaves: I have to go shortly but what I wanted 
10137
10138to say was:
10139
10140If the consultants have accepted 7-9 mon-fri, then we have to accept 
10141
10142that too. Being quite pragmatic we will not get a better deal than the 
10143
10144consultants when it comes to that.  But we are in a position where we 
10145
10146can make them pay for it - make sure it's not something that we give 
10147
10148away easily.  To an extent it's an ideal situation. If three months ago 
10149
10150you told me that we could take Saturday's off the table and reduce the 
10151
10152number of evening hours classified as plain time and still make it look 
10153
10154to the employers like we were making concessions I'm not sure I'd have 
10155
10156believed it - this is a big win! 
10157
10158I have concerns about how non resident on call fit into this model and 
10159
10160I'd like some clarification on that please Johann, but apart from that 
10161
10162if you say that the front loaded nodal model will result in a pay rise 
10163
10164overall then I'm happy.  I would be interested in knowing whether we 
10165
10166could envision some kind of fix for ltft on top of that as LJD 
10167
10168suggested but apart from that it sounds good :)
1016919/12/2015, 09:39 - A Sami: I wonder how acceptable it is for the NHSE 
10170
10171to have 09:00-21:00 or 08:00-21:00 instead 07:00-19:00? It might sound 
10172
10173like matching to the 21:00 end point of the consultants plain time and 
10174
10175the same time we are not moving much
1017619/12/2015, 09:40 - K Mohan: That's a really interesting suggestion. 
10177
10178They may actually go for something like 0800-2100?
1017919/12/2015, 09:42 - K Mohan: Ok. I keep losing you all. So I'm going to 
10180
10181go. 
10182
10183Thanks Johann and those of you who are negotiators. I know how hard 
10184
10185this is having been there myself- you're doing a great job. 
10186
10187Happy weekend all. X
1018819/12/2015, 09:56 - D Rouse: The meeting is the 24ty right
1018919/12/2015, 09:57 - E McCourt: 23rd
1019019/12/2015, 09:57 - E McCourt: I'm pretty certain
1019119/12/2015, 09:57 - D Rouse: :-( can't make it
1019219/12/2015, 09:58 - D Rouse: Well I can make morning only
1019319/12/2015, 09:59 - E McCourt: <Media omitted>
1019419/12/2015, 09:59 - D Rouse: Can't make it at all
1019519/12/2015, 10:07 - D Tooth: Adam sent it . So think that includes the 
10196
10197negotiators too
1019819/12/2015, 10:17 - B Roberts: Apologies from me for this morning - set 
10199
10200my alarm nice and early then managed to fall asleep again... Sorry to 
10201
10202have missed you.
1020319/12/2015, 10:17 - C Sheridan: +1 what Bethan said! Apologies
1020419/12/2015, 10:37 - D Tooth: Did everyone receive my test email to the 
10205
10206steering group?
1020719/12/2015, 10:37 - A Collins: Yep :)
1020819/12/2015, 10:38 - D Tooth: Haven't received yours yet
1020919/12/2015, 10:39 - A Collins: Oh...
1021019/12/2015, 10:43 - A Sami: I received yours, Donna. But when I 
10211
10212replied, I did not receive a copy myself for some reason. 
10213
10214Adam, I did not receive your message either
1021519/12/2015, 10:43 - D Tooth: T's come through now
1021619/12/2015, 10:44 - A Sami: Thank you. It seems much slower than other 
10217
10218listservers' response time!
1021919/12/2015, 10:46 - L Boyle: It's bc it's a new list
1022019/12/2015, 10:46 - L Boyle: They screen all first messages
1022119/12/2015, 10:46 - L Boyle: From everyone
1022219/12/2015, 10:46 - L Boyle: I dunno why.
1022319/12/2015, 10:46 - D Tooth: I'll let shehzad and Bea know to reply
1022419/12/2015, 10:46 - D Tooth: Who's they? Are they screening at the 
10225
10226weekend?
1022719/12/2015, 10:47 - L Boyle: The listserver is set up that the first 
10228
10229time a person posts to any list it takes a while
1023019/12/2015, 10:47 - L Boyle: I think it's some system thing *they* (who 
10231
10232knows) set up
1023319/12/2015, 10:47 - A Sami: Thank you, Luke. It makes sense. It is 
10234
10235quicker now.
1023619/12/2015, 10:48 - A Collins: Dw, jedi master Collins has issued a... 
10237
10238Suggestion. "these are not the messages you're looking for... They can 
10239
10240go on their way"
1024119/12/2015, 10:49 - L Boyle: ??
1024219/12/2015, 10:49 - L Boyle: I'm going to see it tonight. I'm expect it 
10243
10244to be crap cf the originals
1024519/12/2015, 10:49 - A Collins: Nah I think they've captured a lot of 
10246
10247the original spirit.
1024819/12/2015, 10:49 - L Boyle: Good
1024919/12/2015, 10:49 - A Collins: A little too comic for me, but still 
10250
10251excellent
1025219/12/2015, 10:50 - K Mohan: I'd like to make a suggestion: I think I'm 
10253
10254right in saying that with the exception of Donna and TCB none of us are 
10255
10256on exec to represent a particular speciality regardless of the 
10257
10258speciality we work in. We're all there to represent all junior doctors 
10259
10260and we have an equal responsibility to making sure that ALL doctors, at 
10261
10262all stages of training in all specialities don't get screwed. 
10263
10264Can we try to refer to specialities in groups by defining features 
10265
10266rather than trying to "sort" individual specialities:
10267
10268Those with lots of OOH worked.
10269
10270Those which work Non-res primarily.
10271
10272Those which work full shift only.
10273
10274Those with long training programmes
10275
10276Those with short training programmes etc.
10277
10278Those with lots of people who change specialities (maybe) 
10279
10280I'm sure there are more but we need to stop being protectionist about 
10281
10282our own specialities it just won't get us anywhere or move us forward 
10283
10284to a negotiated agreement if possible.
1028519/12/2015, 10:51 - A Collins: ^this. I like this.^
1028619/12/2015, 10:53 - L Boyle: It reminds me of that Calvin Harris song
1028719/12/2015, 10:53 - L Boyle: 'I like those OOH trainees, I like those 
10288
10289LTFT trainees, I like those short training programmes...'
1029019/12/2015, 10:54 - A Collins: ??
1029119/12/2015, 11:08 - L J Davis: I like kitty's suggestion. Could you 
10292
10293bung a list into excel so we can work up a spreadsheet which looks at 
10294
10295current, then +/- of proposed? Think v helpful. Can populate via 
10296
10297listserver?
1029819/12/2015, 11:09 - L J Davis: I'd offer, but I'm one handed at mo :)
1029919/12/2015, 11:09 - L J Davis: Plus helps us all have a global overview
1030019/12/2015, 11:10 - K Mohan: I have no idea what you mean LJD. I'm not 
10301
10302suggesting a piece of work just that we do as we have been mandated and 
10303
10304all represent everyone equally. Which is difficult but absolutely what 
10305
10306our role is as exec/officers/chair with the exceptions I've named 
10307
10308above.
1030919/12/2015, 11:11 - L J Davis: Ok. I'll put something together...
1031019/12/2015, 11:11 - L J Davis: Sorry I didn't make sense
1031119/12/2015, 11:11 - K Mohan: I have to admit that if we don't do this- 
10312
10313it compromises our individual/collective position as those mandated to 
10314
10315make decisions in the interest of all junior doctors.
1031619/12/2015, 11:11 - L J Davis: Obvs we all represent everyone
1031719/12/2015, 11:11 - L J Davis: That's a given
1031819/12/2015, 11:12 - K Mohan: And we don't represent some more than 
10319
10320others.
1032119/12/2015, 11:12 - L J Davis: It's making sure no one gets forgotten 
10322
10323when we are discussing on Wednesday and beyond
1032419/12/2015, 11:13 - K Mohan: So it doesn't matter if for example Andrew 
10325
10326and Chris aren't present. We all represent psych trainees. 
10327
10328"Je suis psych" and all that...
1032919/12/2015, 11:14 - L J Davis: You are indeed a psycho- ??
1033019/12/2015, 11:15 - K Mohan: Thanks! That's exactly what I wanted to 
10331
10332hear.
1033319/12/2015, 11:32 - A Borbora: That's been the position of the negs 
10334
10335team. We are negotiating on behalf of all juniors and nobody is there 
10336
10337in a representative capacity.
1033819/12/2015, 11:33 - Z Greaves: I agree with kitty - we end up with a 
10339
10340very siloed and defensive attitude to negs unless we take that approach
1034119/12/2015, 11:47 - L J Davis: Apols if I wasn't clear; I was 
10342
10343suggesting a kind of crib sheet to outline those broad groups so we 
10344
10345make sure we've covered everyone. It might help those of us who are 
10346
10347good at visual type thinking... Plus we all bring different 
10348
10349experience/knowledge, so although I've not been an st7 orthopod we know 
10350
10351they have long training/full shift/possibly non-res?etc, I want to make 
10352
10353sure we consider them (along with everyone else, obvs)
1035419/12/2015, 12:07 - A Borbora: Surely people should do whatever they 
10355
10356think helps them? If that'll help someone then it's up to them?
1035719/12/2015, 12:09 - K Mohan: Aaron, my comment was following the 
10358
10359discussions today. We have key decisions to make- this week possibly. 
10360
10361Of course we all expect the negotiators to take that approach and 
10362
10363represent everyone. But we as exec need to follow your example and do 
10364
10365the same. That's all.
1036619/12/2015, 12:10 - A Borbora: Yes of course.
1036721/12/2015, 19:52 - M Redman: <Media omitted>
1036821/12/2015, 19:53 - M Redman: Johann takes on Yorkshire.
1036921/12/2015, 20:44 - J Malawana: They're very nice.
1037021/12/2015, 20:44 - A Borbora: Eee by gum
10371On ilkley moor ba'at
1037222/12/2015, 07:30 - J Malawana: Melody I am actually going to use what 
10373
10374that neurosurgeon said last night when we meet the otherside. If they 
10375
10376don't listen to our concerns he wants to go on sustained all out 
10377
10378strike. "Look at how much anger you have caused" etc etc. 
10379
10380Won't mention everyone arguing him down from that position :-)
1038122/12/2015, 07:31 - J Malawana: I do love neurosurgeons.
1038222/12/2015, 07:52 - M Redman: Yeah... Just don't includd the "I'm a 
10383
10384neurosurgeon, I don't care if people like me"
1038522/12/2015, 07:57 - J Malawana: Damn it. That was going to be the next 
10386
10387line.
1038822/12/2015, 08:09 - A Collins: "I'm an obstetrician, people *have* to 
10389
10390keep having babies..."
1039122/12/2015, 08:38 - J Malawana: They really don't. Prefer if everyone 
10392
10393would just stop having Sex.
1039422/12/2015, 08:43 - L J Davis: Ah. Such a sensible approach...
1039522/12/2015, 08:45 - L J Davis: You'd just be left dealing with Gynae 
10396
10397cancer and prolapses tho...
1039822/12/2015, 08:45 - L J Davis: And chronic pelvic pain
1039922/12/2015, 08:45 - L J Davis: ????????
1040022/12/2015, 08:47 - L J Davis: Did we ever decide a finish time for 
10401
10402tmrw? I've been holding off booking a train!
1040322/12/2015, 09:11 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Book as late as poss i would say. 
10404
10405Aaron had said on listserver will b impossible to predict how long will 
10406
10407last. There should be no arbitrary finish time.
1040822/12/2015, 09:16 - K Mohan: I'd prob disagree with that yannis. I 
10409
10410think under these circumstances people need to arrange to leave at the 
10411
10412time that best fits with their life as no end time is given. 
10413
10414Appreciate it's difficult to say, but if we end up non-quorate for 
10415
10416voting members then a decision isn't going to be possible to be made.
1041722/12/2015, 09:16 - A Collins: Yeah, there will be, as some of us have 
10418
10419planes to catch. I'm very keen to be there to discuss things, but let's 
10420
10421do it at a sensible time in an urgent fashion so those of us who have 
10422
10423to travel from further than across the city can get home without having 
10424
10425to leave important decisions to the locals please.
1042622/12/2015, 09:17 - K Mohan: I think we need remember it's a steering 
10427
10428group meeting so will need to essentially start near the beginning. 
10429
10430This is going to take a while.
1043122/12/2015, 09:20 - A Collins: Agree entirely with kitty (somewhat 
10432
10433unusually :p)
1043422/12/2015, 09:31 - Y Gourtsouyannis: See ur points. Especially r.e 
10435
10436ensuring a good number of people are about for decisions. But my main 
10437
10438point is that hopefully johann will set end time at a later time rather 
10439
10440than very early e.g somethung like 8pm rather than 5pm.
1044122/12/2015, 09:40 - K Mohan: I agree, Yannis. 
10442
10443Apologies for personalising this as I try not to. But it would be 
10444
10445useful to know that level of detail today as for example, if I don't 
10446
10447tell my family that I'm NOT "driving home for Christmas" tomorrow I'm 
10448
10449going to need to leave by prob 1730 at the absolute latest. 
10450
10451So whilst I want to be there, and feel as many of us should be to 
10452
10453maintain quorum and be involved in decision making, I just can't unless 
10454
10455I let them know today.
1045622/12/2015, 10:10 - L Boyle: Just to say - an observation really - 
10457
10458whatever time we allocate for the meeting, the meeting will expand to 
10459
10460fill the entire time. Can't remember the name of that 'law'. I'd 
10461
10462suggest 3-6pm
1046322/12/2015, 10:11 - L Boyle: That's the time we originally allocated, 
10464
10465if we focus rather than going round in circles & repeating everyone 
10466
10467else's points (classic BMA mtg) then we'll get it done.
1046822/12/2015, 10:21 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Parkinson's Law!
1046922/12/2015, 10:30 - J Malawana: I have to go home and drive the family 
10470
10471to the wastelands of the north. So I am going to suggest 3-6pm
1047222/12/2015, 10:30 - L Boyle: That's the one Yannis!
1047322/12/2015, 10:32 - K Mohan: Thanks Johann. That's helpful.
1047422/12/2015, 10:42 - A Collins: To put it in context the last flight to 
10475
10476Edinburgh is at, so I think a 5 hour meeting is ambitious unless we 
10477
10478want to bring it forwards again.
1047922/12/2015, 10:46 - A Collins: I've always thought parkinsons law was a 
10480
10481bit... Shakey
1048222/12/2015, 11:48 - L J Davis: Ok. I'll book a train ??
1048322/12/2015, 11:53 - D Tooth: I stand with Johann!
1048422/12/2015, 11:57 - L J Davis: I sometimes sit with Johann.
1048522/12/2015, 11:57 - L J Davis: Maybe doesn't have the same ring to it?
1048622/12/2015, 12:07 - D Tooth: Lol!!
1048722/12/2015, 12:36 - L Boyle: The meeting must be more Swiss watch than 
10488
10489cog wheel Collins
1049022/12/2015, 22:20 - C Bell: How was the meeting?
1049122/12/2015, 22:24 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Danielle the nursing student was 
10492
10493excellent...a very well made speech. She has made the connection with 
10494
10495johann and her speech really worked well alongside  the med student 
10496
10497speech by sophie.
1049822/12/2015, 22:27 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Session as a whole was good i 
10499
10500think. Wasn't just the usual suspects (anna athow!?!) standing up to 
10501
10502speak at all. Was really surprised at how ordinary members...many 
10503
10504totally new to this kind of thing, had the courage to stand up on the 
10505
10506podium to speak.
1050722/12/2015, 22:27 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Kitty and ellen there too
1050822/12/2015, 22:27 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Johann, ellen and kitty gave 
10509
10510excellent speeches too
1051122/12/2015, 22:29 - Y Gourtsouyannis: ...would b interested to hear the 
10512
10513views of others there r.e the nursing student contribution...i think we 
10514
10515are probably all on the same page on that one!
1051622/12/2015, 22:50 - A Borbora: I was very moved by her speech and the 
10517
10518support from colleagues in other healthcare professions and unions. 
10519I don't know what help we can extend to the nhs bursary campaign but we 
10520
10521should do what we can. 
10522Like you, Yannis, I worked with other unions in the run up to IA and 
10523
10524they were completely on board. I think we must return that support and 
10525
10526would value suggestions as to how.
1052723/12/2015, 00:46 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Agree johann. I think crucial to 
10528
10529helping the nursing bursaries issue is mobilising the med students. As 
10530
10531a whole they are itching to get involved in everything from what i can 
10532
10533see!
1053423/12/2015, 00:48 - Y Gourtsouyannis: R.e other unions. Will update u 
10535
10536with suggestions aaron/exec in the next few days (had planned to do so 
10537
10538today but too late in the evening. Gotta sleep)
1053923/12/2015, 00:48 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Oops aaron called u johann. I am 
10540
10541sure u will both take that as an honour!
1054223/12/2015, 07:20 - A Borbora: Haha 
10543I'm the better looking one!
1054423/12/2015, 07:43 - L J Davis: I've hurt my back!!! I'm not going to be 
10545
10546able to come up - but more concerned I can't pick up the baby! Arghh!
1054723/12/2015, 14:34 - L J Davis: Is there any stuff to read in advance of 
10548
10549mtg?
1055023/12/2015, 14:41 - B Roberts: Can someone let me know Scopia details 
10551
10552for today's meeting here, please? E-mail's playing up... Thanks!
1055323/12/2015, 14:42 - L J Davis: 616523
1055423/12/2015, 14:42 - L J Davis: ??
1055523/12/2015, 14:42 - B Roberts: Thanks! See you shortly!
1055623/12/2015, 14:43 - A Collier In response to LJD I haven't had anything 
10557
10558through to read.
1055923/12/2015, 14:43 - L J Davis: Hmmm. Guess it'll be tabled?
1056023/12/2015, 14:44 - A Collier One would assume, but these are strange 
10561
10562times
1056323/12/2015, 14:44 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Room?
1056423/12/2015, 14:45 - H Carter: Black
1056523/12/2015, 14:45 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Thanks
1056623/12/2015, 14:46 - C Sheridan: Is there a TC number too? My scopia is 
10567
10568rubbish ??
1056923/12/2015, 14:47 - H Carter: 0203 0333 903
1057023/12/2015, 14:48 - L Boyle: I'll be a couple late, need post sthg here
1057123/12/2015, 14:49 - A Sami: Thank you, LJD. Any idea of the dial in 
10572
10573number please? Many thanks
1057423/12/2015, 14:53 - A Sami: Thank you, Harry
1057523/12/2015, 14:55 - A Sami: I am going to be a couple of minutes late 
10576
10577as I leave from work
1057823/12/2015, 14:55 - A Yassaee: Stuck on the central line. Will be there 
10579
10580shortly.
1058123/12/2015, 14:57 - M Redman: <Media omitted>
1058223/12/2015, 14:57 - M Redman: They told us ten mins... Awks...
1058323/12/2015, 14:59 - T Crocker-Buque: Are we starting at 3?
1058423/12/2015, 15:03 - B Roberts: I thought so, Tim, but I seem to be the 
10585
10586only one here!
1058723/12/2015, 15:03 - B Roberts: Oh, a TC person has just popped up!
1058823/12/2015, 15:03 - T Crocker-Buque: I've dialled into silence a couple 
10589
10590of times...
1059123/12/2015, 15:08 - B Roberts: Where is everyone?!
1059223/12/2015, 15:09 - L J Davis: They are all late! Or we've been sent to 
10593
10594the wrong place...
1059523/12/2015, 15:10 - B Roberts: Ah, just seen Andy's e-mail!
1059623/12/2015, 15:10 - T Crocker-Buque: Apparently the there is a 
10597
10598technical problem with the TC/VC
1059923/12/2015, 15:10 - L J Davis: Oh for fucks sake
1060023/12/2015, 15:11 - L J Davis: Sometimes the inability of the Bma 
10601
10602technology to get with the 20th century really bothers me; let alone 
10603
1060421st...
1060523/12/2015, 15:13 - A Sami: Thank you for updating us, TCB. Is there 
10606
10607any chance to let us know here when we go live please? Many thanks. 
10608
10609Amjad
1061023/12/2015, 15:14 - L J Davis: Live now
1061123/12/2015, 15:15 - A Sami: Thank you, LJD
1061223/12/2015, 15:20 - C Sheridan: Cheers harry just dialling in!
1061323/12/2015, 15:24 - E McCourt: Live Amjad!
1061423/12/2015, 15:30 - A Sami: Thank you, Ellen
10615
10616Are we going to get copies by email for those of us who are dailing in?
1061723/12/2015, 15:58 - L J Davis: Is anyone else getting long periods of 
10618
10619white noise?
1062023/12/2015, 15:59 - L J Davis: Might just be my internet connection?
1062123/12/2015, 15:59 - A Sami: Not on my side, LJD
1062223/12/2015, 16:02 - L J Davis: I need a gap to read this properly. 
10623
10624Can't read & listen at the same time!!!
1062523/12/2015, 16:15 - L J Davis: We have dyspraxic & dyslexic members. 
10626
10627Give us a chance! :)
1062823/12/2015, 16:22 - L J Davis: I've got some questions...
1062923/12/2015, 16:22 - L J Davis: Please :)
1063023/12/2015, 16:22 - J Malawana: Ok
1063123/12/2015, 16:54 - L J Davis: What does "agreed cost of living" mean 
10632
10633under salaries? I know I had lots of comments/questions...
1063423/12/2015, 17:05 - L J Davis: Plus; simple answer to why we're not 
10635
10636like sas Drs for ooh; we're rotated. They (normally) have a home base 
10637
10638and work near it. We get moved & may not be able to do non-res from 
10639
10640home. (& have no choice over that).
1064123/12/2015, 17:07 - B Roberts: Who would regulate the guardian?
1064223/12/2015, 17:08 - A Collins: Quis custodiet custodies?
1064323/12/2015, 17:09 - L J Davis: Actually, easy to bully the top end (not 
10644
10645giving references, etc)
1064623/12/2015, 17:09 - L J Davis: Heard that at banding appeals
1064723/12/2015, 17:11 - A Collins: I'm sure it's easy to bully all ages if 
10648
10649you want to
1065023/12/2015, 17:25 - L J Davis: Not got it...
1065123/12/2015, 17:25 - L J Davis: ??
1065223/12/2015, 17:31 - L J Davis: What happens when we leave the EU in 
10653
106542017?
1065523/12/2015, 17:32 - L J Davis: We had a response rate of 13%?!?!?!?
1065623/12/2015, 17:32 - B Roberts: Shockingly poor, isn't it?
1065723/12/2015, 17:33 - L J Davis: Shall I say these things in the mtg? :) 
10658
10659Johann?
1066023/12/2015, 17:35 - L J Davis: Can I say something on the survey?
1066123/12/2015, 17:35 - L J Davis: Or generally? Ta!
1066223/12/2015, 17:38 - A Sami: 08:00-20:00?
1066323/12/2015, 17:38 - A Sami: 09:00-21:00?
1066423/12/2015, 17:39 - A Sami: 08:00-21:00 only if Saturday is spared?
1066523/12/2015, 17:41 - A Sami: How does this all fit with the removal of 
10666
10667banding system?
10668
10669Most of Juniors do not feel the current 07:00-19:00 because of banding
10670
10671Once we get paid by the hour, I guess there will be greater granularity 
10672
10673on pay based on pkain time definitions (more than the current system 
10674
10675shows)
1067623/12/2015, 17:41 - A Collins: Amjad, meeting or listserver. Not here 
10677
10678please
1067923/12/2015, 17:45 - L J Davis: Adam: difficult for us not there!
1068023/12/2015, 17:48 - A Collins: Not many people are reading this live.
1068123/12/2015, 17:49 - L J Davis: You are ????????
1068223/12/2015, 17:49 - J Malawana: Got you Amjad
1068323/12/2015, 17:49 - L J Davis: Me too!!!
1068423/12/2015, 17:50 - L J Davis: I said AGES AGO!
1068523/12/2015, 17:50 - J Malawana: Got you
1068623/12/2015, 18:19 - L J Davis: I've got another (very small) point
1068723/12/2015, 18:21 - L J Davis: GP trainees can't work in ooh without 
10688
10689VERY close supervision. Their supervisors get direct cash (£50 per 
10690
10691session) to reflect that... Not sure that this is reflected.
1069223/12/2015, 18:25 - A Sami: 07:00 is non starter for a plain time.
10693
10694If someone works a night shift, the earliest they finish normally is 
10695
1069608:00
10697
10698In other words, the earliest day dhift to come and take over from night 
10699
10700shift doctors is 08:00.
10701
1070207:00-08:00 in the morning needs to be recognised as OOH because it is 
10703
10704done by a night shift doctor.
10705
10706Otherwise, we got paid till 7 as OOH and then the night doctor gets 
10707
10708paid a plain time on the last hour or two as plain time!
1070923/12/2015, 18:30 - A Sami: The main point still stands
10710
10711The current 07:00-19:00 is not felt by juniors due to the banding.
10712
10713Once we start being paid by the hour, the granularity will be greater 
10714
10715felt. Hence my suggestion to consider the implications of shifting 
10716
1071707:00-19:00 to 08:00-20:00
10718
10719It seeves two folds, once we give the impression to have moved to the 
10720
10721employer and secondly maintains the current 12 hours plain time, and 
10722
10723therefore giving the impression we have not moved!
10724
10725Saturday, in my opinion, is a no no
1072623/12/2015, 18:35 - L J Davis: D'you want to do vote on Saturdays?
1072723/12/2015, 18:37 - L J Davis: Do I get 2 votes? ??
1072823/12/2015, 18:39 - L J Davis: There are a lot of phone lines...
1072923/12/2015, 18:39 - L J Davis: 3
1073023/12/2015, 18:40 - L J Davis: Or 5
1073123/12/2015, 20:23 - D Tooth: Apologies guys my phone hasn't been 
10732
10733working all day. Yes ljd currently ooh for GP trainees is with trainers 
10734
10735and should be for GP training, as said before, not propping up medical 
10736
10737Rota' etc
1073824/12/2015, 12:12 - E McCourt: Can anyone enlighten me as to how I 
10739
10740share Johann's post on the Facebook group? I can only share the song 
10741
10742link...
1074324/12/2015, 12:14 - J Malawana: Use the communities link I posted on 
10744
10745the JDC listserver.
1074624/12/2015, 12:14 - J Malawana: Probably a better way of doing it.
1074724/12/2015, 12:14 - E McCourt: Thanks ??
1074824/12/2015, 12:23 - K Mohan: Can someone post the communities link 
10749
10750here. Can't find it on the JDC listserver.
1075124/12/2015, 12:25 - A Collins: *sigh* the elderly with computers... 
10752
10753https://communities.bma.org.uk/junior_doctors_industrial_action/f/154/t
10754
10755/1560
10756
10757*runs and hides*
1075824/12/2015, 12:25 - A Collins: ??
1075924/12/2015, 12:26 - ?L Elliott: 
10760
10761https://communities.bma.org.uk/junior_doctors_industrial_action/f/154/t
10762
10763/1560
1076424/12/2015, 12:26 - K Mohan: Is that on the JDC listserver? I haven't 
10765
10766received that post. Weird.
1076724/12/2015, 12:55 - A Collins: Its about reply 11 to the "negs update"  
10768
10769thread
1077024/12/2015, 20:48 - J Malawana: Hi all
10771You need to start thinking about the form of action for January. I will 
10772
10773need to make a Reccomendation to the council committee on this from JDC 
10774
10775exec.
1077624/12/2015, 20:49 - J Malawana: Have a think about this. No need for 
10777
10778answers on here.
1077924/12/2015, 20:49 - J Malawana: But I just want to highlight that that 
10780
10781decision will need to be made next week.
1078224/12/2015, 20:49 - J Malawana: Happy Christmas X
1078324/12/2015, 20:56 - D Tooth: Ok boss!
1078424/12/2015, 20:56 - D Tooth: Merry Christmas to you all xxx
1078524/12/2015, 20:58 - M Redman: ???? < Johann that's you 
10786
10787Will do
10788
10789Merry Christmas all ??
1079024/12/2015, 20:59 - A Collins: <Media omitted>
1079124/12/2015, 21:02 - A Collins: ????????????????
1079225/12/2015, 00:16 - L Boyle: <Media omitted>
1079325/12/2015, 00:17 - L Boyle: It's been done well, tbf
1079425/12/2015, 00:35 - D Rouse: Hahaha
1079525/12/2015, 10:50 - A Borbora: Happy Christmas all!
1079625/12/2015, 10:50 - A Collins: <Media omitted>
1079725/12/2015, 11:11 - D Tooth: Merry Christmas all. Some have just gone 
10798
10799too far this season
1080025/12/2015, 11:12 - D Tooth: <Media omitted>
1080125/12/2015, 11:17 - J Malawana: Where the hell is that from?!?
1080225/12/2015, 11:17 - J Malawana: God.
1080325/12/2015, 11:18 - J Malawana: Sarah is already cringing.
1080425/12/2015, 11:18 - D Tooth: Have you been too busy opening presents to 
10805
10806check the junior doctors forum!! Shame on you. 
10807Can't remember the name
1080825/12/2015, 11:24 - J Malawana: Sarah is genuinely cringing. She thinks 
10809
10810everyone is mad. I am going to frape her later by changing her profile 
10811
10812pic to that one. It will wind the hell out of her.
1081325/12/2015, 11:24 - A Borbora: That's creepy
1081425/12/2015, 11:24 - J Malawana: For some reason she is starting to 
10815
10816sound a bit like kitty. Now that's creeping me out.
1081725/12/2015, 11:25 - J Malawana: She already slapped me. If she starts 
10818
10819pinching and scratching i am going to have to go for a for a long walk. 
10820
10821Alone.
1082225/12/2015, 11:29 - D Tooth: Ha ha!! Nothing like a domestic at 
10823
10824Christmas time.
1082525/12/2015, 12:38 - L J Davis: Take Noah with you. And make tea/hot 
10826
10827chocolate/beverage of choice for her before you go...
1082825/12/2015, 12:54 - M Redman: Nhs is number one. Mint, now I can stream 
10829
10830biebs all I like.
1083125/12/2015, 12:55 - D Tooth: Brilliant news!! Listening to Katie on 
10832
10833radio 1 now
1083425/12/2015, 12:56 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Excellent start to a very 
10835
10836interesting january.
1083725/12/2015, 13:47 - K Mohan: I always liked Sarah the best. Although 
10838
10839Noah is cool too.
1084025/12/2015, 14:59 - D Rouse: Merry xmas everyone. 
10841
10842Just getting a drink and going back. To sleep. Nights suck. 
10843
10844That Angel is fucking creepy. 
10845
10846Ho Ho Ho!!
1084725/12/2015, 15:20 - C Castles: Merry Christmas. And thanks for not 
10848
10849having a meeting at 8 this morning :-)
1085025/12/2015, 15:21 - D Tooth: There's always tomorrow Conan!!
1085125/12/2015, 16:09 - C Castles: I'm working gp out of hours 8am tomorrow 
10852
10853unfortunately
1085425/12/2015, 17:40 - A Collins: Aww great news!
1085525/12/2015, 20:20 - D Tooth: <Media omitted>
1085625/12/2015, 20:24 - M Redman: <Media omitted>
1085725/12/2015, 20:24 - M Redman: Lol.
1085825/12/2015, 20:33 - A Collins: So many great replies
1085925/12/2015, 20:34 - J Malawana: Reading the replies to his tweet is 
10860
10861making me laugh
1086225/12/2015, 20:34 - A Collins: He's just such a hunt!! And everyone has 
10863
10864realised :D
1086525/12/2015, 21:52 - E McCourt: <Media omitted>
1086625/12/2015, 22:00 - A Collins: :O I should have had this to go with my 
10867
10868lovely elf outfit last night!
1086927/12/2015, 20:54 - D Rouse: I have been thinking long and hard about 
10870
10871the industrial action if it is necessary to take it in January.  
10872
10873If our hand is forced then sadly think the time has come to ratchet to 
10874
10875full walk out, I don't think that attempting emergency care will be a 
10876
10877successful option. 
10878
10879Going to full walk out is likely to be more successful as it is  simple 
10880
10881message, stops doctors  negotiating the terms of walk out with 
10882
10883management and demonstrates our seriousness over these issues.  
10884
10885Yes it will mean that the public and media do not side with us any more 
10886
10887but I think this was always inevitable.  However our message is also 
10888
10889going to be a very difficult one to manage.  Patient safety may be a 
10890
10891difficult mantra to sell especially if the government concedes on more 
10892
10893of our safety wants.  It will then become about pay and our t&c, which, 
10894
10895as we know the public have little time for. 
10896
10897
10898My preference is still to negotiate where possible. I wonder if we 
10899
10900should see what bending a little on a key issue would give us?  We 
10901
10902don't have to accept what is offered back, but we could see where the 
10903
10904narrative goes, we have little to lose if the appetite is to move to 
10905
10906I/a anyway and we can at least have a glimpse of what the 'best we 
10907
10908could get' option would have been. 
10909
10910I do urge one bit of caution if we are to move to I/a.  It will not be 
10911
10912over soon. I think for I/a to be successful we will be looking at weeks 
10913
10914of repeated I/a and members will be losing out on more than just a few 
10915
10916hundred pounds. Members have to be willing to be in this for the long 
10917
10918haul, I am not sure many realise this!  Many have panicked over he 
10919
10920hardship of what a single day would bring - if we move to I/a this will 
10921
10922not be a single day!  The government will dig in and this will become a 
10923
10924war of attrition, and we cannot be the ones be going over the top first 
10925
10926or we will be shot to shreds!
10927
10928This is going to be a difficult and hard slog and I think we need to be 
10929
10930very mindful of that.
1093127/12/2015, 20:59 - A Sami: I completely agree with almost every single 
10932
10933word you said, David.
10934(And well done for putting all this in one message! Unlike the usual 
10935
10936msn-style!??)
1093727/12/2015, 21:28 - D Rouse: Thanks.
10938
10939It's just been weighing on my mind.  One day of action will not work. 
10940
10941And if we fold, then we will have to accept whatever they give us. 
10942
10943What will cause us to fold is membership not continuing to fight 
10944
10945because of the financial implications.  We should not begin to think 
10946
10947for one moment that the BMA has the cash to be able to support long 
10948
10949term hardship funds.  The miners, the rail workers  etc had huge unions 
10950
10951far bigger than the BMA with vast amount of support and they could not 
10952
10953afford to provide money's for it.  
10954
10955Members if they are serious about this need to think long and hard how 
10956
10957much they are willing to sacrifice to this cause.
1095827/12/2015, 21:52 - J Malawana: I think moving to a full walk out 
10959
10960straight away will be difficult. I think we also need to space out the 
10961
10962actions. It's something we definitely need to discuss but I think 
10963
10964moving to a full walk out at 1 weeks notice could be very problematic. 
10965
10966I think we would be better doing 24 hour actions initially with holding 
10967
10968on to the possibility of the full walk out as a ratchet if the 
10969
10970government doesn't give way. 
10971
10972I think there is a high risk they won't give way. They will just want 
10973
10974to hold out. 
10975
10976In that scenario it maybe better to actually say to them to impose the 
10977
10978contract if that's what they want as they definitely won't be doing it 
10979
10980with our support and we get every lnc ready to fight them every way we 
10981
10982can.
1098327/12/2015, 22:00 - D Rouse: But I think we need memebership to buy in 
10984
10985long term it's naive to think single days will be effective
1098627/12/2015, 22:02 - A Collins: I think if the govt wasn't willing to 
10987
10988appropriately negotiate from the threat of a 24hr eoc it seems silly to 
10989
10990then return to that.
1099127/12/2015, 22:02 - A Borbora: Even long term IA may not be effective, 
10992
10993depending on the circumstances. The 1982/3 flexible rostering dispute 
10994
10995at BR was ultimately lost by ASLEF/NUR despite many months of action
1099627/12/2015, 22:02 - A Collins: I agree with David that the membership 
10997
10998will see it will be ineffective. They have effectively given themselves 
10999
11000this warning by knowing they would not concede important areas
1100127/12/2015, 22:03 - A Borbora: They did negotiate - what we have now is 
11002
11003different from what we had in November
1100427/12/2015, 22:03 - A Collins: So really we're not giving them a week, 
11005
11006as they could have predicted this... *removes pr hat*
1100727/12/2015, 22:08 - A Borbora: Possibly but it will be seen as giving 
11008
11009them but a week's notice. Sure we can respond by saying that they 
11010
11011should have made plans after December but they will simply say we were 
11012
11013negotiating in good faith so didn't and in any event the holiday season 
11014
11015intervened
1101627/12/2015, 22:09 - A Collins: They could perhaps allow us to take the 
11017
11018IA later if they wish for more notice? We could offer that? (I know 
11019
11020legally this will be difficult... But they are the govt...)
1102127/12/2015, 22:11 - A Borbora: Fundamentally doctors cannot afford long 
11022
11023term IA. Most live in either private rentals or mortgaged places. 
11024
11025Unlike workers in past disputes who often lived in local authority 
11026
11027rentals we don't have the ability to miss payments and remain in a 
11028
11029home. 
11030It isn't a question of the BMA's resources (which are greater than the 
11031
11032miners or RMT's) but of the members. Even donated hardship funds cannot 
11033
11034cover more.
1103527/12/2015, 22:11 - A Borbora: 13th Jan is the last possible day on 
11036
11037this mandate and no further extensions are permissible by law
1103827/12/2015, 22:13 - J Malawana: Aaron is right about the law. He is 
11039
11040also right that they have negotiated as shown by the grid we presented
1104127/12/2015, 22:13 - J Malawana: They simply haven't given into all our 
11042
11043red lines.
1104427/12/2015, 22:14 - J Malawana: That's the difference and we need to be 
11045
11046cognisant of that.
1104727/12/2015, 22:14 - J Malawana: I have responded on the listserver so 
11048
11049people can write as much or little as they want.
1105027/12/2015, 22:15 - J Malawana: Have also suggested Tuesday at 4pm for 
11051
11052the meeting.
1105328/12/2015, 00:09 - L J Davis: I think tues pm ok for me...
1105428/12/2015, 00:11 - L J Davis: And just to echo; I agree with david. 
11055
11056This is going to be protracted & very unpleasant.
1105728/12/2015, 00:11 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Of course it is.
1105828/12/2015, 00:12 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Thats why we need to think of 
11059
11060everything around it too
1106128/12/2015, 00:12 - Y Gourtsouyannis: If we provide clear leadership 
11062
11063the junior docs will be ON it.
1106428/12/2015, 00:13 - Y Gourtsouyannis: 4pm fine for me too btw
1106528/12/2015, 00:16 - L J Davis: On negs; if the question is a simple 
11066
11067dichotomy, will you accept 7-10 plain time or not... Then no. However, 
11068
11069if there was 'blurring' around hours which was acceptable to 
11070
11071membership, played off against a significant uplift in pay; maybe that 
11072
11073would be acceptable. It'd have to be a bloody good gain, but that's the 
11074
11075point of negs, isn't it? 
11076
11077At the moment we have been reductionist to the point of one red line; 
11078
11079I'm not sure we can be that simplistic.
1108028/12/2015, 00:18 - L J Davis: And although I'd like to share yannis' 
11081
11082belief that people will actually take action, I am concerned by the 
11083
11084experience of the pensions dispute (learning; Drs don't like 
11085
11086confrontation, they like to grumble loudly and be a hero). And I'm 
11087
11088worried that we only had a 13% response rate on the survey. I fear 
11089
11090that's indicative of how members may respond in IA.
1109128/12/2015, 00:23 - Y Gourtsouyannis: The failue of pensions dispute 
11092
11093was a failure of bma strategy not the membership.
1109428/12/2015, 00:23 - L J Davis: I'm prepared to rally the troops, but we 
11095
11096must really believe it will deliver something worthwhile. That cannot 
11097
11098just be a huge reduction in pay due to prolonged IA... And an imposed 
11099
11100contract anyway...
1110128/12/2015, 00:24 - L J Davis: Hmmm? What makes you say that yannis?
1110228/12/2015, 00:25 - L J Davis: ??
1110328/12/2015, 00:26 - L J Davis: (I can see you're typing...) ??
1110428/12/2015, 00:27 - Y Gourtsouyannis: 13% response to survey not 
11105
11106worried about. Generally the ratio of returns on any non-essential 
11107
11108online thing is around that. For example when a popular blog post i did 
11109
11110(most popular ever on a communities at that point) the translation of 
11111
11112people who saw tweet to people who read page was 10:1. When a few weeks 
11113
11114ago Tim Yates put out an online survey to North Thames r.e the ACAS 
11115
11116statement the reponse rate was around 10:1 too. This being in a pretty 
11117
11118engaged bma constituency.
1111928/12/2015, 00:27 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Wouldnt read too much therefore 
11120
11121in online response rate. Thats what i would have guessed.
1112228/12/2015, 00:27 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Now to answer ur other question 
11123
11124r.e pensions.
1112528/12/2015, 00:27 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Very briefly
1112628/12/2015, 00:27 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Lots of detail could go 
11127
11128into....but...
1112928/12/2015, 00:28 - Y Gourtsouyannis: 1. The nature of pensions vs 
11130
11131contract is very very different
1113228/12/2015, 00:28 - L J Davis: ie deferred not immediate?
1113328/12/2015, 00:28 - Y Gourtsouyannis: 2. Bma's chosen model for the day 
11134
11135was suboptimal...we discussed this at length
1113628/12/2015, 00:28 - Y Gourtsouyannis: In the prep for our current model
1113728/12/2015, 00:29 - L J Davis: Bank holiday, but unclear?
1113828/12/2015, 00:29 - L J Davis: (As in unclear to members)
1113928/12/2015, 00:29 - Y Gourtsouyannis: 3. The bma's planning for days 
11140
11141after the first day suboptimal...got some detail on this from keith at 
11142
11143lone of the exec meetings
1114428/12/2015, 00:31 - L J Davis: That's interesting. Tbh I think the 
11145
11146biggest issue wasn't actually the strategy; or at least, not the 
11147
11148strategy with regards to our membership...
1114928/12/2015, 00:31 - L J Davis: (I'd also refute the difference; 
11150
11151consultants at least were  v v angry about the pensions changes)
1115228/12/2015, 00:32 - L J Davis: Our big problem was the scale of the 
11153
11154change and the fact that we were perceived, as a profession, to be 
11155
11156acting in an unreasonably greedy way
1115728/12/2015, 00:33 - Y Gourtsouyannis: My points one two and three  are 
11158
11159brief to the point of glibness. Happy to write an essay on listserver! 
11160
11161:)
1116228/12/2015, 00:33 - L J Davis: If everyone else in the NHS gets career 
11163
11164average, then we should too seemed to be the argument.
1116528/12/2015, 00:33 - L J Davis: (Not unreasonably)
1116628/12/2015, 00:34 - L J Davis: However, this is different in that 
11167
11168juniors have managed to look like a hard working, possibly underpaid 
11169
11170group. Being away from the consultants is probably a good thing in this 
11171
11172context...
1117328/12/2015, 00:36 - L J Davis: However, I'm going to snuggle up and go 
11174
11175to sleep now ?? xxx
1117628/12/2015, 00:44 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Me too!
1117728/12/2015, 02:37 - D Rouse: My point is this
1117828/12/2015, 02:44 - D Rouse: I don't think the medics will undertake 
11179
11180long I/a. 
11181
11182Therefore we will end up folding we need to be so carful
1118328/12/2015, 08:17 - Z Greaves: I agree with David we won't get more 
11184
11185than two or three good days of action so we need to plan big
1118628/12/2015, 08:18 - Z Greaves: The fear and threat of IA will always be 
11187
11188greater than the true impact
1118928/12/2015, 08:21 - Z Greaves: And I'm not reassured by the suggestion 
11190
11191that because junior doctors have been apathetic about several different 
11192
11193surveys they will be committed to action - in the run up to the last 
11194
11195action I was very worried by the numbers not planning to participate 
11196
11197and we'll get less know than we would then
1119828/12/2015, 08:22 - D Rouse: The moment we move to I/a this government 
11199
11200know all they have to do is wait us out
1120128/12/2015, 08:32 - L J Davis: Yep. The threat is a better weapon than 
11202
11203the reality, however it plays out... But there are interesting times 
11204
11205ahead; apparently GPs are trying to work out how they may take IA; and 
11206
11207the consultants... Well.
1120828/12/2015, 08:34 - L J Davis: I'm not suggesting we model based on 
11209
11210them, or muddy our waters by what they are up to, but it'd be foolish 
11211
11212not to explore the bigger picture of what this means for the NHS & its 
11213
11214relationship with Drs.
1121528/12/2015, 14:37 - A Borbora: I'm not worried about participation, 
11216
11217provided-as Lottie posted on the listserver- we were clear on our 
11218
11219message as to why we are taking action. The anger is still there and 
11220
11221many were skeptical about the negs from the off. 
11222People can't afford to take prolonged action but we can do various 
11223
11224things to reduce losses or split them between pay cheques. 
11225I'm unconvinced about things to do with other branches of practice. We 
11226
11227need to do our own thing.
1122828/12/2015, 14:40 - Z Greaves: I think we have to be aware that not all 
11229
11230regions appear to have the same level of fervour - london and Mersey 
11231
11232seem to be particularly incensed - people I'm speaking to are largely 
11233
11234relieved the issue has gone away and I think will be reluctant to take 
11235
11236up arms again
1123728/12/2015, 14:45 - A Borbora: That's a fair point. We also need to 
11238
11239remember that a lot of the whipping up in November was done by hunt 
11240
11241himself - danger money etc. 
11242He's been very quiet recently and so we'll have to do it ourselves. 
11243However, despite some good progress in some domains I think there's 
11244
11245still enough to present the other side  as unreasonable.
1124629/12/2015, 09:42 - K Mohan: I know none of us (except perhaps Amjad 
11247
11248and our national chairs) are on exec representing regions but I've 
11249
11250taken the liberty this morning of checking with our local south thames 
11251
11252(not just London) reps about preparedness for action  and type of 
11253
11254action they would want considering time limits. 
11255
11256I'll report back later but I have to admit I've been sufficiently 
11257
11258convinced by their responses to do an about turn on my personal 
11259
11260thoughts on this issue. 
11261
11262I'd encourage those of you with a similar "reference group" to quickly 
11263
11264check if possible. I just used whatsapp and obvs didn't give any 
11265
11266confidential details.
1126729/12/2015, 09:44 - ?L Elliott: We did the same for mersey - shall 
11268
11269report later. Main issue though is that no one knows what the actual 
11270
11271issue is that we want to strike on as I said in my email. I've been 
11272
11273asked multiple times and can't say anything?!
1127429/12/2015, 09:45 - K Mohan: My guys felt that having read Johann's 
11275
11276emails a strike was now inevitable ... they didn't ask about specific 
11277
11278issues... Not sure if that is worrying or not!
1127929/12/2015, 09:46 - ?L Elliott: Interesting. Although having said 
11280
11281people keep asking about the reasons they are still on for striking
1128229/12/2015, 10:37 - L J Davis: I want to be clear; I do not think we 
11283
11284should base any Jdc action on what other bops are doing. But it would 
11285
11286be foolish to not be aware of what they are doing and how to capitalise 
11287
11288to get the best outcome for junior doctors...
1128929/12/2015, 10:37 - A Borbora: I came into work to a barrage of 
11290
11291questions from both juniors and consultants, prompted by the 4th jan 
11292
11293statement. 
11294There's an information vacuum developing. Hopefully comms are on it....
1129529/12/2015, 10:39 - ?L Elliott: But it's not just comms though. It's 
11296
11297the hospital reps, regional reps, exec etc that need to be on it too... 
11298
11299But limited with what we can say?
1130029/12/2015, 10:57 - J Malawana: Have to say the people I talk to are 
11301
11302reasonable and more so since we have been seen to be so calculating in 
11303
11304trying to get the deal. I think people will want and accept emergency 
11305
11306care only with one weeks notice.
1130729/12/2015, 10:58 - J Malawana: I think we need to be careful we aren't 
11308
11309"over representing" the angry loud people.
1131029/12/2015, 10:59 - J Malawana: Even one of the really angry people who 
11311
11312messaged me a lot has said they now think emergency care and longer 
11313
11314versions of it including a whole week of just emergency care would be 
11315
11316better than a full walk out.
1131729/12/2015, 10:59 - J Malawana: Not sure that's a good idea but it 
11318
11319confirmed what I thought was going on out there.
1132029/12/2015, 11:01 - A Borbora: So disputes committee has been moved to 
11321
11322tomorrow morning 
11323Hopefully we can get some more information to reps after this.
1132429/12/2015, 11:02 - K Mohan: Wouldn't we wait until we have decided to 
11325
11326take IA or not (ie on the 4th Jan)?
1132729/12/2015, 11:04 - A Borbora: In my view we can't say nothing until 
11328
11329then. People need time to get prepared. It isn't fair on local reps to 
11330
11331give them so little time for LNC meetings, organising pickets, RJDC 
11332
11333meetings etc 
11334A constant criticism from RJDC chairs last time was too much secrecy 
11335
11336which meant developing plans was difficult
1133729/12/2015, 11:05 - A Borbora: People will have to understand that no 
11338
11339decision will be made until the 4th and anything they do plan may be 
11340
11341cancelled.
1134229/12/2015, 11:09 - J Malawana: It actually may help with pressure as 
11343
11344well. I will get a lot of shit from nhse about negotiating in bad faith 
11345
11346but frankly we have been very clear with them what our position is. 
11347
11348It is better to be slightly porous right now with information that 
11349
11350means we are "preparing" for the worst.
1135129/12/2015, 11:11 - A Borbora: Plus it helps develop and empower the 
11352
11353local rep network, vital if LNCs are going to play a part in hours 
11354
11355safeguards/ the guardian
1135629/12/2015, 11:11 - K Mohan: I agree with this- I was just clarifying 
11357
11358position rather than stating my view.
11359
11360I think at the moment the "threat of IA" is going (again) to be the 
11361
11362best weapon to getting the most out of NHSE. To have us all gearing 
11363
11364back up for IA would help I think.
1136529/12/2015, 11:12 - ?L Elliott: So after disputes we can tell people 
11366
11367what it's all about?
1136829/12/2015, 11:12 - ?L Elliott: Disputes committee
1136929/12/2015, 11:13 - K Mohan: Perhaps best to see what they decide 
11370
11371first?
1137229/12/2015, 11:16 - ?L Elliott: But assuming it's a yes to the IA we 
11373
11374can't leave people in the dark to what it's about for long.
1137529/12/2015, 11:25 - J Malawana: Agree Lottie. It's a delicate balance.
1137629/12/2015, 11:27 - J Malawana: We can discuss. Nhse are already trying 
11377
11378to accuse me of acting in bad faith by writing member facing messages. 
11379
11380They are trying to conflate member communications with press 
11381
11382statements. It's actually a good tactic on their part as they have so 
11383
11384limited room to move that they need to off load the blame for failure. 
11385
11386The only two directions to off load are us or to ministers. And they 
11387
11388seem more keen on keeping the ministers happy than staff which given 
11389
11390the history of last few months is probably wise for their side.
1139129/12/2015, 11:28 - J Malawana: But it will get nasty as they really 
11392
11393have little leeway to manoeuvre as their mandate is tighter than ours.
1139429/12/2015, 11:28 - J Malawana: It's a classic stand off.
1139529/12/2015, 11:28 - J Malawana: The best solution may actually to draw 
11396
11397this right out.
1139829/12/2015, 11:29 - J Malawana: Into the Europe debate and leadership 
11399
11400debate.
1140129/12/2015, 11:29 - J Malawana: Punctuated IA for a prolonged period 
11402
11403and force them to impose against our support.
1140429/12/2015, 11:30 - J Malawana: So we don't look like we are at all 
11405
11406collaborating.
1140729/12/2015, 11:30 - J Malawana: But we will have very bitter and sour 
11408
11409relationships with them for a very long time.
1141029/12/2015, 11:31 - J Malawana: But it maybe a judgment that is worth 
11411
11412making. Perhaps the BMA has been too scared and too close to government 
11413
11414for too long?
1141529/12/2015, 11:31 - A Collins: Does forcing them to impose really get 
11416
11417us anywhere?
1141829/12/2015, 11:32 - A Collins: Unless we're planning to support a 
11419
11420massive divestment to locum agencies with their own contracts we'll all 
11421
11422be screwed by the new contract :/
1142329/12/2015, 11:32 - K Mohan: The BMA has definitely been too scared and 
11424
11425close to the Govt for too long. But we're going to have to drag the 
11426
11427wider BMA and "higher" BMA with us kicking and screaming if at all.
1142829/12/2015, 11:32 - J Malawana: If we have negotiated the best deal 
11429
11430possible and it's still not good enough then either you help them 
11431
11432deliver it and get tainted by it or you tell them to impose and poison 
11433
11434the well of industrial relations.
1143529/12/2015, 11:33 - A Collins: Ohhhhh I see what you mean :)
1143629/12/2015, 11:33 - A Collins: Cunning.
1143729/12/2015, 11:33 - A Collins: Also I agree with kitty about dragging 
11438
11439and the need for it.
1144029/12/2015, 11:33 - J Malawana: Like a really cunning fox.
1144129/12/2015, 11:33 - J Malawana: Lol
1144229/12/2015, 11:33 - J Malawana: Remember the further you are from power 
11443
11444the less influence you have over it.
1144529/12/2015, 11:34 - J Malawana: Whilst it may make people feel better, 
11446
11447keogh is getting his stupid fucked up ideas implemented because he is 
11448
11449right in here whispering sweet nothings to Jeremy and the rest.
1145029/12/2015, 11:34 - A Collins: As cunning as a fox who's just been 
11451
11452appointed Professor of Cunning at Oxford University?
1145329/12/2015, 11:35 - A Collins: Yeah I know it works both ways :/
1145429/12/2015, 11:35 - J Malawana: So you always need to have a view on 
11455
11456whether we want to be seen to be representative or actually doing the 
11457
11458best job of representing the membership for their own benefit.
1145929/12/2015, 11:36 - A Collins: I was just having a conversation about 
11460
11461that balance. It's difficult if we think we can get several things by 
11462
11463giving up one that is important to people.
1146429/12/2015, 11:37 - J Malawana: It's very easy to get carried away with 
11465
11466what's going on as everyone is very nice about JDC and says nice things 
11467
11468about me and high profile individuals. But that's not the job. 
11469
11470Popularity is less important than effectiveness. We need to make the 
11471
11472decisions that maybe difficult but will be in the best long term 
11473
11474interests of juniors and the profession.
1147529/12/2015, 11:38 - A Collins: I promise to say fewer nice things about 
11476
11477you, to help.
1147829/12/2015, 11:38 - J Malawana: Having said that giving up a 
11479
11480fundamental principle will always be held against us. No spinning out 
11481
11482of that one.
1148329/12/2015, 11:39 - J Malawana: As bill McMillan said when he worked 
11484
11485for unison, a union littered with glorious defeats.
1148629/12/2015, 11:39 - A Collins: Yeah I know. But despite its place in 
11487
11488the ICM survey of we got real movement on all those other things, 
11489
11490perhaps it would be worth it. There's just no way to know *without* 
11491
11492giving it up.
1149329/12/2015, 11:39 - J Malawana: Thanks Adam. :-)
1149429/12/2015, 11:39 - A Collins: Hypothetical bargaining doesn't seem 
11495
11496like it's gonna work
1149729/12/2015, 11:39 - J Malawana: No.
1149829/12/2015, 11:40 - J Malawana: I think our fudge on pay progression 
11499
11500means that technically we have done our big give.
1150129/12/2015, 11:40 - J Malawana: That's how I will be portraying it.
1150229/12/2015, 11:40 - J Malawana: And that's an argument they had real 
11503
11504trouble with on the last day of negs.
1150529/12/2015, 11:41 - A Collins: That's a good spin.
1150629/12/2015, 11:41 - J Malawana: They accepted what we did was clever 
11507
11508and so made it obvious we were trying to find a constructive solution. 
11509
11510But they had no room to move.
1151129/12/2015, 11:42 - J Malawana: Their subsequent attempt at fighting 
11512
11513with me was either a tactic or again very poor personal management.
1151429/12/2015, 11:42 - J Malawana: Danny is under a lot of pressure to 
11515
11516deliver and I think he will take this very badly if he can't pull it 
11517
11518off.
1151929/12/2015, 11:42 - A Collins: Is personal management what we call self 
11520
11521control these days?
1152229/12/2015, 11:43 - J Malawana: Lol
1152329/12/2015, 11:44 - A Collins: Right now I'm under a lot of pressure do 
11524
11525deliver lunch for 14. So I shall bid you all farewell and see you 
11526
11527later.
1152829/12/2015, 11:46 - A Borbora: On a serious note I'm not sure about 
11529
11530this idea of forcing them to impose. That may have worked (and indeed 
11531
11532was discussed) with a completely unworkable contract - such as the ddrb 
11533
11534one- but what we have now is workable. Not great but would just about 
11535
11536do the job. 
11537I don't think it's a tactic that's going to be acceptable to members 
11538
11539either. 
11540Many unions work under a constant threat of ia and it may be worth 
11541
11542exploring (perhaps through Yannis' contacts) how they do things
1154329/12/2015, 11:48 - A Borbora: I'll be corrected by Donna here but I'm 
11544
11545not sure GPC have derived that much benefit by regular re-negotiations, 
11546
11547despite the electoral cycle. However, with the IA element this is 
11548
11549different to an extent
1155029/12/2015, 12:41 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Agree with nearly 100% of johanns 
11551
11552points. R.e qualitative change in relationship...r.e our big give r.e 
11553
11554medium term plan. Only bits disagree with is the percievd dischotomy 
11555
11556between effectiveness and popularity and the positive correlation 
11557
11558between proximity to power and success (in the specific situation of 
11559
11560union vs state)
1156129/12/2015, 14:36 - L J Davis: I guess it's down to the influence you 
11562
11563think the Bma can have. The board of science will, no doubt continue to 
11564
11565do its thing... But it's possible that *some* of the other bodies we 
11566
11567hold possible influence with have already chosen to disengage. As for 
11568
11569the traditional government structures, it strikes me that they are 
11570
11571different from in the past, in an age of austerity, they've either been 
11572
11573slimmed down or bonfired or rely on external consultancy. That also 
11574
11575changes how the Bma interacts... Plus, I don't think we have Jeremy's 
11576
11577ear on anything.
1157829/12/2015, 14:36 - L J Davis: But for the first time, the grumbles 
11579
11580about the Bma from Drs are fewer...
1158129/12/2015, 15:57 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Dial in numbr?
1158229/12/2015, 15:58 - A Collins: 02030 333911
1158329/12/2015, 16:02 - J Malawana: Everyone logged in who is coming?
1158429/12/2015, 16:02 - D Rouse: Not yet I am going to phone in
1158529/12/2015, 16:02 - H Carter: Johann I'm on the phone
1158629/12/2015, 16:03 - H Carter: But I said hello and nobody answered so 
11587
11588you may not be able to hear me
1158929/12/2015, 16:03 - B Roberts: Just having some issues with Scopia, see 
11590
11591you shortly (hopefully!).
1159229/12/2015, 16:03 - A Yassaee: I'll phone in in 2
1159329/12/2015, 16:15 - Y Gourtsouyannis: At wrk so would be great for me 
11594
11595to have my 20s worth earlier rather than latr
1159629/12/2015, 16:16 - J Malawana: Got you on the list after Lottie
1159729/12/2015, 16:19 - D Rouse: Can you add me to the list please
1159829/12/2015, 16:20 - M Redman: Have written it on our chat list
1159929/12/2015, 16:21 - D Rouse: Thanks
1160029/12/2015, 16:43 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Have to go back to work 
11601
11602unfortunately. Just a few final points frm this end. 1. It has always 
11603
11604been my view that the exact form of IA taken on day 1 is less inportant 
11605
11606than following through and ensuring that there is a decent rachet plan. 
11607
11608I reiterate that i am inclined to the view of ECM first but can see the 
11609
11610arguments for full walk out as a starting point too. 2. I am attracted 
11611
11612to LJD's idea of 1 week's ECM at the ratchet point. Its a better plan 
11613
11614of 'hard and fast' than starting off with full walk out  3. To slightly 
11615
11616disagree with one of the points made....in all my disussions, with both 
11617
11618the 'more experienced' and 'less experienced' junior docs i think that 
11619
11620actually there is a unanimous view that one day of action can never 
11621
11622achieve anything on its own. So i think the membership already 
11623
11624recognise and are prepared for a longer period of IA (though not of 
11625
11626course an indefinite period).
1162729/12/2015, 16:44 - Y Gourtsouyannis: If finish work on time (unlikely) 
11628
11629and if u guys are still talking (likely?!) I will try and dial in again 
11630
11631latr l.
1163229/12/2015, 16:46 - B Roberts: Apols, I'm having real issues with 
11633
11634Scopia today.
1163529/12/2015, 16:51 - E McCourt: Ellen
1163629/12/2015, 16:51 - J Malawana: Ok
1163729/12/2015, 16:58 - L Boyle: I'll have to go back to the ward for a 
11638
11639whizz round the bleeders here to check things okay & for the handover 
11640
11641plans - will rejoin in 20min if still going :)
1164229/12/2015, 17:03 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Just rejoined and heard the words 
11643
11644'work to rule'! Noooooooo! :-)
1164529/12/2015, 17:03 - ?L Elliott: It should never of been mentioned.
1164629/12/2015, 17:06 - A Collins: Blame LJD!!
1164729/12/2015, 17:07 - L J Davis: Apols; I put it out there as a 'soft 
11648
11649start' jokingly as a single ratchet point for the 12th, to give space 
11650
11651to get to em only for a full week in mid feb; Adam picked it up... 
11652
11653Although it would demonstrate how much extra work needs to get paid 
11654
11655for... IT WAS A JOKE!!!
1165629/12/2015, 17:07 - L J Davis: Bloody Adam!
1165729/12/2015, 17:07 - L J Davis: ??
1165829/12/2015, 17:08 - L J Davis: Miserable bunch...
1165929/12/2015, 17:11 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Yannis to spk for a mo plz
1166029/12/2015, 17:16 - L J Davis: I (genuinely) don't understand how em 
11661
11662action is unfair? Sorry if I'm being dense. Unfair to who, exactly?
1166329/12/2015, 17:17 - A Borbora: The night team who'll come into pick it 
11664
11665up for a start
1166629/12/2015, 17:17 - A Collins: Sozzles, I'm at home with my family and 
11667
11668therefore my sense of humour is... Exhausted.
1166929/12/2015, 17:17 - ?L Elliott: Unfair for the night team coming in for 
11670
116713 nights to shit. Unfair for amu and a&e.
1167229/12/2015, 17:18 - L J Davis: Night team because it'll be busy? Surely 
11673
11674we still get the consultants on side who were so keen to step in?
1167529/12/2015, 17:18 - ?L Elliott: Not for night shifts
1167629/12/2015, 17:20 - L J Davis: But nights will the same busyness won't 
11677
11678they?
1167929/12/2015, 17:21 - D Rouse: Can you add me to the list please
1168029/12/2015, 17:21 - D Rouse: Can you add me please
1168129/12/2015, 17:21 - D Rouse: Please
1168229/12/2015, 17:21 - L J Davis: Because the plan is that we provide the 
11683
11684same skeleton staff as a bank holiday (gosh, like a 4 day bh w'end)
1168529/12/2015, 17:21 - A Collins: Added david
1168629/12/2015, 17:22 - L J Davis: But mid-week
1168729/12/2015, 17:23 - H Carter: I've had to leave - I think all of those 
11688
11689that couldn't attend or had to leave before the end would appreciate a 
11690
11691brief one-liner about the decision made at some point after the 
11692
11693meeting. Many thanks.
1169429/12/2015, 17:23 - L J Davis: So it disrupts o-pts and surgery, etc.
1169529/12/2015, 17:24 - L J Davis: Still don't get the unfair bit
1169629/12/2015, 17:25 - A Borbora: It disrupts the whole hospital. It'll 
11697
11698make the night shift very busy
1169929/12/2015, 17:25 - K Mohan: I have no idea what this thread is about.
1170029/12/2015, 17:26 - L J Davis: As they say on mumsnet, RTFT ??
1170129/12/2015, 17:26 - L J Davis: ??????
1170229/12/2015, 17:26 - A Collins: Anything starting with "as they say on 
11703
11704mumsnet" I tend to discount ??
1170529/12/2015, 17:28 - C Sheridan: About to drive home so wont be able to 
11706
11707speak. (Will go handfree to listen). Think we should stick with 
11708
11709original IA plan. Emergency Care 1 day 1st week especially given short 
11710
11711notice and ratchet to full walk out 1 day week 2 and 3. We decided this 
11712
11713as a good model already recently and being consistent makes us look 
11714
11715more reasonable.
1171629/12/2015, 17:37 - K Mohan: In my defence, there is a lot of feedback 
11717
11718on the line so we need to mute if not speaking.
1171929/12/2015, 17:38 - A Collins: Guys I'm gonna have to go I'm afraid. 
11720As a parting message I'd like to say that we all need to think about 
11721
11722this as a wider fight, not as just rhe IA. Those who are working will 
11723
11724get paid and those who strike won't. Those who are working might have 
11725
11726to pick up slack that those striking won't. Those who are working will 
11727
11728be seen as the ones with more integrity who have stayed to look after 
11729
11730patients those who are striking won't. Thosr who strike might get to 
11731
11732protest, those who are working won't. It's all a balance and everyone 
11733
11734has their role to play. 
11735
11736Sorry family calls. I'm off. X
1173729/12/2015, 17:40 - A Collier For the love of god can people stop 
11738
11739shouting.
1174029/12/2015, 17:41 - A Borbora: Yannis can you repeat your point I 
11741
11742couldn't hear you
1174329/12/2015, 17:50 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Just read this aaron! Dnt worry. 
11744
11745Was just a response in slight disagreement to davids point about full 
11746
11747walk out and long term strike fatigue. Debate moved on now so wont 
11748
11749revisit it.
1175029/12/2015, 17:51 - J Malawana: Does anyone want to speak?
1175129/12/2015, 17:53 - Y Gourtsouyannis: No. Am in general agreement with 
11752
11753the new plan but would acho aarons question r.e the provenance of the 
11754
11755the new plan.
1175629/12/2015, 17:55 - E McCourt: Ellen
1175729/12/2015, 18:05 - A Collins: What's the new plan then?
1175829/12/2015, 18:05 - D Tooth: Sorry am here, have been multitasking and 
11759
11760driving home
1176129/12/2015, 18:06 - K Mohan: Still going.
1176229/12/2015, 18:08 - Y Gourtsouyannis: R.e timeline: Johanns argument 
11763
11764r.e the expanding to february and undermining of Hunts imposition 
11765
11766window is very very convincing.
1176729/12/2015, 18:14 - A Borbora: Fully behind the 2/52 period. Will help 
11768
11769negs
1177029/12/2015, 18:16 - Y Gourtsouyannis: 2 weeks gap yes. 4 weeks gap no.
1177129/12/2015, 18:16 - A Yassaee: Ditto
1177229/12/2015, 18:16 - D Rouse: Hello
1177329/12/2015, 18:17 - L Boyle: It's me
1177429/12/2015, 18:17 - E McCourt: Are we talking a full 24hr walk or 9-5 
11775
11776or what?
1177729/12/2015, 18:20 - J Malawana: 9-5 walk out
1177829/12/2015, 18:24 - L J Davis: Yes to package PLUS an extra day of em 
11779
11780in the 48hrs
1178129/12/2015, 18:29 - A Yassaee: I may have to run soon but if I'm honest 
11782
11783I don't see the cost benefit of a third day working in our favour.
1178429/12/2015, 18:36 - E McCourt: 1. We need to keep JDC updated and give 
11785
11786them the opportunity to vent privately. 2. Can I go back to bed yet?! 
11787
11788??
1178929/12/2015, 18:37 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Public facing msg this week, 
11790
11791building on the previous message, is crucial. If at all possible
1179229/12/2015, 18:39 - A Borbora: Plus the more detailed briefing for LNCs 
11793
11794and RJDCs
1179529/12/2015, 18:41 - A Collins: Update?
1179629/12/2015, 18:53 - A Borbora: 12th em care 
117972/52 for talks 
1179848hrs em care 
117992/52
118008-5 full out
1180129/12/2015, 18:56 - A Collins: :)
1180229/12/2015, 18:56 - A Collins: Sounds good.
1180329/12/2015, 18:56 - A Collins: Thanks
1180429/12/2015, 19:17 - Z Greaves: Aaron was that what was agreed?
1180529/12/2015, 19:25 - A Borbora: Yes
1180629/12/2015, 19:41 - Z Greaves: Sounds good
1180729/12/2015, 22:12 - M Redman: 
11808
11809http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/dec/29/junior-doctors-
11810
11811implement-strike-action-plans-nhs-government-talks-falter?
11812
11813CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
1181429/12/2015, 22:19 - A Sami: A source with negotiation knowledge
1181529/12/2015, 22:31 - A Borbora: Could be a leak by hunt?
1181629/12/2015, 22:32 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Easily.
1181729/12/2015, 22:32 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Wouldnt worry too much tho. 
11818
11819Article could b helpful?
1182029/12/2015, 22:32 - Y Gourtsouyannis: I think it reads quite well.
1182129/12/2015, 22:33 - A Borbora: Though it doesn't saying that couldn't 
11822
11823be worked out 
11824I agree it doesn't do us any harm and provides justification for our 
11825
11826comms in the days to come. But means there is an absolute need to brief 
11827
11828JDC and LNC reps
1182929/12/2015, 22:33 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Must say though...its a crazy 
11830
11831world. Secrecy seems to b impossible.
1183229/12/2015, 22:34 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Ur right it does slightly force 
11833
11834our hand.
1183529/12/2015, 22:34 - Y Gourtsouyannis: But i think johann was 
11836
11837anticipating that
1183829/12/2015, 22:35 - A Borbora: Just makes us look reactive which wasn't 
11839
11840the plan but there's nothing we can do
1184129/12/2015, 22:37 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Already being shared on facebook.
1184229/12/2015, 22:37 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Shared by two on friends list. 
11843
11844Thats quick.
1184529/12/2015, 22:38 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Tmro disputes committee, johann 
11846
11847and comms need to be on top game
1184829/12/2015, 22:40 - J Malawana: It's not actually that bad. And it's 
11849
11850not reactive. They are reacting to our statement.
1185129/12/2015, 22:40 - J Malawana: If anything it puts the pressure 
11852
11853squarely on the other side to come out with concessions and stop 
11854
11855dragging their feet.
1185629/12/2015, 22:41 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Agree. Zero need to worry. Just 
11857
11858need to b on it esp r.e comms with jdc
1185929/12/2015, 22:42 - J Malawana: Given our decisions we want the 
11860
11861pressure to build up and it's better it comes this way. We aren't going 
11862
11863to have a very friendly relationship with the employers and government 
11864
11865whatever happens if we don't get plain time agreed so better to start 
11866
11867signposting earlier rather than later
1186829/12/2015, 22:43 - J Malawana: They always over extrapolate from 
11869
11870statements. And Danny has actually spoken to them
1187129/12/2015, 22:43 - J Malawana: So no way he can blame us.
1187229/12/2015, 22:46 - M Redman: Is that why the guardian were ringing you 
11873
11874during meeting lol
1187529/12/2015, 22:47 - J Malawana: Yes. Had to ignore them.
1187629/12/2015, 22:47 - A Collins: ??
1187729/12/2015, 22:47 - J Malawana: But they are generally on board n
1187829/12/2015, 22:48 - J Malawana: The guardian health guy is the best 
11879
11880informed health correspondent of all of them.
1188129/12/2015, 22:48 - J Malawana: I think he is actually even better than 
11882
11883Hugh Pym.
1188429/12/2015, 23:03 - J Malawana: So materials@bma.org.uk is up and 
11885
11886running.
1188729/12/2015, 23:04 - J Malawana: The stuff has been reordered as well to 
11888
11889restock.
1189029/12/2015, 23:04 - A Collins: Good work!
1189129/12/2015, 23:05 - J Malawana: Amjad has also helped coordinate some 
11892
11893of the stuff that came out of the nrjdc meeting to ensure Comms are 
11894
11895ready with stuff the rjdc chairs need
1189629/12/2015, 23:06 - J Malawana: The machine should be ready. It won't 
11897
11898be perfect and there will be flaws and holes but everyone is getting 
11899
11900ready.
1190129/12/2015, 23:07 - J Malawana: The decision by exec today has helped 
11902
11903as everyone has clear deadlines. The two two week gaps helps us get 
11904
11905things sorted and plans enacted much more effectively.
1190629/12/2015, 23:11 - T Crocker-Buque: On a slightly different note - I'm 
11907
11908not sure when the meeting today was scheduled, but for those of us who 
11909
11910sometimes don't have time to read through hundreds of what's app 
11911
11912messages, could an email be sent round to the reference group in 
11913
11914advance of meetings so everyone is clear. Thanks!
1191529/12/2015, 23:12 - J Malawana: I think was on JDC exec listserver
1191629/12/2015, 23:12 - A Sami: There was an email from Dan, Tim.
1191729/12/2015, 23:12 - J Malawana: In fact I think was booked on there not 
11918
11919on here Tim
1192029/12/2015, 23:13 - T Crocker-Buque: Ah - I didn't get the email from 
11921
11922Dan. Will sort it for next time. Thanks
1192329/12/2015, 23:13 - A Collins: Is Tim on exec list?
1192429/12/2015, 23:13 - A Collins: I worry he would only be on reference 
11925
11926group if he didn't get Dan's email.
1192729/12/2015, 23:15 - K Mohan: I think the Guardian article is pretty 
11928
11929good. NHSE may sulk a little initially when you meet them next week but 
11930
11931should help them understand exactly how important these issues are to 
11932
11933us and puts the pressure squarely on NHSE and DH.
1193429/12/2015, 23:17 - A Borbora: It makes our planned comms tomorrow look 
11935
11936reactive. That's not really a problem nor something we can do anything 
11937
11938about but is a fact.
1193929/12/2015, 23:18 - A Borbora: We have been doing a lot of stuff with 
11940
11941disputes in the background so hopefully some of the problems will have 
11942
11943been resolved but there's no change to the picketing guidance I'm 
11944
11945afraid
1194629/12/2015, 23:20 - J Malawana: Again I don't think we are reactive as 
11947
11948this is all stemming from our exec meeting and the statement I made. So 
11949
11950I don't think we can be accused of being reactive as a result.
1195129/12/2015, 23:20 - J Malawana: We now simply need to wait and let the 
11952
11953other side stew.
1195429/12/2015, 23:21 - J Malawana: We don't need to do much publicly. 
11955
11956Privately we use this limited time to prepare.
1195729/12/2015, 23:27 - Y Gourtsouyannis: Front page. Looking at it from 
11958
11959that angle i have no worry r.e us seeming reactive. We seem very much 
11960
11961in driving seat.
1196229/12/2015, 23:27 - Y Gourtsouyannis: <Media omitted>
1196329/12/2015, 23:32 - J Malawana: Is it the front page?!
1196429/12/2015, 23:33 - J Malawana: Oh god.
1196529/12/2015, 23:33 - J Malawana: Lol
1196629/12/2015, 23:34 - J Malawana: Well can fairly assume that is about as 
11967
11968pressured as can be.
1196929/12/2015, 23:34 - J Malawana: Definitely will leave it to them now to 
11970
11971stew
1197229/12/2015, 23:35 - K Mohan: Agree. Best way to put pressure. Now just 
11973
11974leave them to sweat for a few days and see if they are more helpful on 
11975
11976Monday.
1197729/12/2015, 23:35 - A Collins: I think it's an excellent turn of 
11978
11979events. But I'm quite tipsy
1198029/12/2015, 23:36 - K Mohan: I presume the comms sept are screwing. I'd 
11981
11982leave them to sweat as well.
1198329/12/2015, 23:36 - K Mohan: *dept not sept
1198429/12/2015, 23:37 - J Malawana: I just have to say the more I think 
11985
11986about it the more I love our plan. Basically 5 weeks of headlines about 
11987
11988juniors strikes through January and February.
1198929/12/2015, 23:38 - J Malawana: They will be going fucking crazy when 
11990
11991they hear the announcement if they don't give us what we need.
1199230/12/2015, 00:36 - K Mohan: It won't let me post the video from sky 
11993
11994news looking at tomorrow's papers on here but it's on my FB.
1199530/12/2015, 07:01 - A Borbora: Let's see before we pat ourselves on the 
11996
11997back. The headlines may not be what we or our members want. 
11998As I said I have my doubts about the effectiveness of the 48hr 
11999
12000emergency care. The hospitals will find ways to keep as much elective 
12001
12002activity as possible going - we saw this in some trusts last time. I 
12003
12004also felt that there was a degree of goodwill to us from many trust 
12005
12006boards last time that we can't rely on this time. 
12007More than happy to be proved wrong.
1200830/12/2015, 08:26 - A Sami: Good morning everyone
12009
12010
12011Johann, can vonfirm at later on today, if possible, any meetings need 
12012
12013to happen next week, especially if any for Monday please?
12014
12015It helps massively with arranging shifts around.
12016
12017Many thanks
1201830/12/2015, 20:37 - K Mohan: Andrew is developing a bit of a cult-
12019
12020following in South Thames after his LBC interview this eve. I didn't 
12021
12022hear it (and you apparently have to subscribe to hear it on catch-up) 
12023
12024but I am reliably informed by at least 6 people that he was excellent. 
12025
12026As always.
1202730/12/2015, 20:48 - J Malawana: Shit Amjad sorry for not responding. 
12028
12029The meeting will need to be at 2.30pm I am guessing as we need to get 
12030
12031the notices out at 4. We may be able to delay till 3pm but disputes is 
12032
12033scheduled to meet at 3pm
1203430/12/2015, 20:49 - J Malawana: Awesome. Is there anyway of getting the 
12035
12036download?
1203730/12/2015, 20:49 - J Malawana: I am staying away from the media
12038
12039NEXT PART: http://pastebin.com/P4tA1pgb