0RaxeKaB

1Katherine Maher - Joakim Jardenberg interview on "misinformation, bias, @Wikidata, @Wikipedia, and leadership" on Aug 23, 2019
2https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMdmbCk8I-o
3https://twitter.com/krmaher/status/1164978580264062976
4https://twitter.com/jocke/status/1164900417697980416
5
600:00
7I think we can agree that the world is a polarized place today and and that
800:06
9goes for the Internet as well right? We have trolls and we have fake news,
1000:10
11alternative facts and all that jazz. Yes! How can it be that Wikipedia and the
1200:18
13the Wikimedia projects have managed to be so resilient,
1400:23
15what's the secret source – or the not so secret sauce? That's actually funny it's
1600:27
17true it's not very secret. It's right there in the open I think that the the
1800:32
19thing that makes Wikipedia unique is that for the past 18 years what
2000:37
21Wikimedia has been working to develop is a way to handle differences of opinion
2200:42
23differences of information and find a way to bring them together - if not
2400:48
25agree on everything about the world at least agree on how we can talk about
2600:54
27what our differences are and achieve some sort of consensus even on really
2800:59
29hard topics. So Wikipedians have developed a model which honestly is
3001:04
31based on very old models it's based on principles of journalism; you check your
3201:08
33facts, it's based on principles of academic and peer-review,
3401:12
35coming from academia you put your opinions or ideas in front of the people
3601:17
37and you subject them to greater scrutiny it's based on the idea of the scientific
3801:22
39method which is you start with a hypothesis and you know as information
4001:25
41comes along you update your mental models all of these sorts of things like
4201:31
43a PDF brings them all together and finds a way to engage people of very different
4401:37
45backgrounds very different beliefs very different biases and asks them to forge
4601:43
47some sort of approximation of what we can say I don't think truth is a tough
4801:48
49word but what we know and what we can agree upon about the world around us mmm
5001:52
51that sounds that sounds like a beautiful idea right it's beautiful isn't it
5201:57
53practice I mean since everything on on the platform is collaborative and you
5402:02
55know the elections of administrators and everything yeah how are you not raided
5602:07
57by by the phone so we do have an expression that says it's a good thing
5802:11
59Wikipedia works in just because it would never work in
6002:14
61theory right I think one of the things that makes it possible is that I mean
6202:23
63you ask of us sort of rated by trolls I mean one thing is that everything in
6402:26
65pedia is what we call revert able you can undo everything so no major change
6602:32
67is a major commitment I can make an edit to an article and if it's the wrong edit
6802:36
69because I got my facts wrong or the the quality of my update my edit wasn't that
7002:42
71good or I didn't have a strong citation somebody else can revert it back that
7202:46
73means that if I am trying to do something malicious as well like
7402:50
75introduce information that's inaccurate or try to change the perspective on an
7602:56
77article another editor can come along and say I clearly see that you have a
7802:59
79biased intent here and they can undo it you roll it back and the same thing is
8003:03
81true with the way that the administrators work so within Wikipedia
8203:07
83anyone can edit Wikipedia but then the longer you participate in Wikipedia the
8403:12
85more eligible you become to have advanced sort of seniority and
8603:16
87permissions on the platform you have to ask your peers for those permissions and
8803:20
89your peers can take them away and so there's a sense of self-regulation that
9003:25
91occurs in the ecosystem that holds all of us accountable to what it is that we
9203:30
93are presenting and how we show up and you can get away maybe once or twice
9403:35
95with making a good faith mistake but if you're clearly out there in Wikipedia
9603:39
97trying to influence information in a way that's biased the other Wikipedia
9803:44
99editors think you know they they catch on pretty quickly and they'll they'll
10003:48
101either discourage you politely or they'll and you know it at the most
10203:55
103extreme end they have the ability to block or ban somebody who's really
10403:59
105trying to cause harm to Wikipedia yeah there's also been hypothetical
10604:04
107discussions about you know doing the long run here to make sure that you just
10804:08
109ablis yourself as a trustworthy Wikipedia and you gain trust and then
11004:12
111over time you just start you know seeming exciting the slow yeah I think
11204:17
113that I do worry about that but to the extent that anyone is doing that I
11404:22
115almost I almost am certain that somebody is doing it in the opposite
11604:26
117equal direction I mean well I mean it really depends on what your you know
11804:31
119your bias is like I may have a bias towards a certain political inclination
12004:37
121that there's somebody sitting right you know maybe a kilometer down the road
12204:42
123that has a different bias that it's based on their truth or their lived
12404:47
125experience and so one of the things that we really care about at the wikimedia
12604:51
127foundation is how do you bring as many different types of people into wikimedia
12804:55
129as possible diversity in the context of wikipedia is actually tremendously
13005:00
131important because diversity of thought means that whatever our ideas are
13205:04
133whatever our perspectives are they have to be in contest with your perspectives
13405:08
135your ideas your lip experience in order for us to find a place to agree on the
13605:14
137information that we think is important for the world to have access and know
13805:18
139and share and so you know for some topics that's that's pretty innocuous we
14005:23
141can argue over how to characterize the reviews of a latest movie release but
14205:29
143some topics that's really important when we talk about the history of our
14405:33
145countries when we talk about issues of current political importance when we
14605:37
147talk about you know current affairs all of these sorts of things that are
14805:41
149hot-button topics in the world it actually is really helpful to have lots
15005:45
151of different perspectives involved in how we negotiate what and how we talk
15205:50
153about those issues that sounds like an absolute necessity isn't it kind of a
15405:55
155problem that wikipedia existed for quite a fair amount of years until diversity
15606:01
157really became a question i mean wikipedia looked the way Wikipedia did
15806:05
159until we actively started working with 80% men and yes absolutely so that's
16006:11
161kind of the community yeah as it turns out our systems are biased even I know I
16206:20
163think this is really true you know the way Wikipedia exists today it was built
16406:24
165primarily and and I always say this I should say I am really appreciative of
16606:31
167the people who built Wikipedia and I think we anyone who uses Wikipedia
16806:35
169should be appreciative of the people who vote Wikipedia and so in no way do I
17006:39
171want to or belittle the fact that those
17206:43
173demographics are actually pretty biased as I said and I don't mean bias in the
17406:47
175sense that of explicit bias of believing one thing or another but more in the
17606:51
177sense of what happens when you have 80% of your editors of Wikipedia who are
17806:57
179from North America or Europe who are male you know those the lived
18007:02
181experiences that we have color our perspective of the world
18207:05
183I just am never going to write as effectively about Nairobi as someone who
18407:10
185grew up in Nairobi now it doesn't mean that I can't write about my Robi as just
18607:14
187as much as I would hope and nice you know a Kenyan would be able to write
18807:17
189about New York City which is the city closest to where I grew up all of those
19007:21
191perspectives are valid but if there's only one perspective that dominates
19207:25
193that's where the problem comes in and so when we look at Wikipedia we know and we
19407:29
195can see some of those biases that exist just in our editing numbers fewer than
19607:33
1972% of all edits to Wikipedia come from the continent of Africa
19807:37
199in most Wikipedia languages fewer than 30 percent of the biographies that exist
20007:43
201of women are of women so and certainly that doesn't reflect the actual
20207:49
203demographic balance of women in society so these biases that we bring to the
20407:54
205table are not necessarily explicit ones but they're biases of interest if I
20607:58
207would prefer to write about Formula One racecar drivers then that's my bias
20808:03
209that's probably my topic because I know from and it doesn't mean that you know
21008:12
211women write only about women and it doesn't mean that men write only about
21208:15
213men it's a viewpoint then there's someone yeah of course of course it just
21408:18
215means that more perspectives equals more knowledge equals broader broader sort of
21608:23
217range I always I always think of it if you sat me down in front of the building
21808:26
219where in the Magna Stockholm University I could describe to you exactly what I
22008:31
221was seeing I couldn't describe what the back side of the building looks like so
22208:35
223we need people standing all around the building to give us a full perspective
22408:38
225on what it is that we're actually looking at that's a great picture let's
22608:41
227remember that and that may be a sensitive question but has there been
22808:46
229any resistance within the community to the new push on diversity
23008:51
231I haven't seen it so I'm just um that's a good question
23208:56
233I think that conceptually know in practice sometimes these things are
23409:01
235difficult you know in practice sometimes making space for people means up giving
23609:05
237means giving up space in practice sometimes there are trade-offs that come
23809:11
239along with doing doing this sort of work we were talking last night actually in a
24009:16
241community strategy session here at the conference about what does it mean to do
24209:21
243strategy and the answer that we were talking about was essentially it means
24409:25
245trade-offs between two different good things and so the good thing today may
24609:30
247be an active community that functions very well that maintains Wikimedia
24809:34
249projects and that that's great I mean it's created this tremendous gift or
25009:39
251built this tremendous gift of humanity the other good thing might be learning
25209:43
253and readjusting our systems and having to rebuild some of our systems to
25409:47
255accommodate a broader range of perspectives including bringing in new
25609:52
257people who might not know exactly how the Wikipedia works when they first get
25809:56
259started but that's also a good thing and so sometimes you know we're trading off
26009:59
261between two good things but if we my hope is that if we understand that the
26210:04
263greater good is more knowledge more perspectives more understanding more
26410:09
265collaboration then we can say okay the short term good that works right now is
26610:13
267valuable but the long term good is actually the more valuable thing and
26810:17
269what I will say about Wikipedians is historically they've been unafraid of
27010:21
271taking on new challenges you wouldn't have created Wikipedia if you didn't
27210:26
273think that it was possible to do the impossible so I you know I'm confident
27410:29
275that that that's something that we can draw on in terms of our our history and
27610:34
277our spirit and go forward it might probably also be harder to launch a
27810:39
279Wikipedia today yeah we've done it's interesting I was just talking about
28010:44
281that I think there's two ways of interpreting that question one is little
28210:48
283Wikipedia so they have a harder time getting off the ground but I think that
28410:51
285if you say could you do Wikipedia today is that what yeah I'm thinking more in
28610:55
287terms of building this this base of some people it would be really hard to do
28811:01
289Wikipedia today I think that we came of age
29011:05
291time in the internet where you know the old cartoon anyone can be a dog on arey
29211:11
293any you know anyone can be dog on the internet oh we came of age in a time
29411:16
295where the internet was not consolidated in the way it is today there was a lot
29611:20
297of space for creativity then nobody had claimed certain sort of domains in the
29811:27
299way that I think you have now today you have five or six or you know ten major
30011:32
301companies that really account for the majority of traffic on the web eighty to
30211:37
303ninety percent of traffic on the web if that you know if Wikipedia where to
30411:40
305search day I'm not sure we would ever get the footholds and I also don't know
30611:44
307that people would believe that you could build something exactly yeah it's one
30811:48
309thing to accept accept on existing we cooperate as you can see that it works
31011:51
311right well people didn't accept it when it started I don't know but I think the
31211:56
313sense of the Internet is a very creative optimistic space was was very alive
31412:00
315twenty years ago and now I'd love to bring that I know before I ask you some
31612:07
317more questions about what society can learn from Wikipedia and the other week
31812:11
319in media projects you have some some blazing successes like wiki data mmm-hmm
32012:18
321and some not so big successes like wiki news mhm
32212:21
323could you could you give some kind of perspective as to what works and what
32412:25
325doesn't work in my yeah that's a great question so you're you're right I think
32612:30
327that the bigger successes our wiki data Wikimedia Commons Wiktionary in some
32812:34
329languages a project that's quite popular called wiki source which is quite big in
33012:38
331Indic languages for among others and then you're right wikinews wikiversity
33212:42
333wikibooks these have not been quite as successful I think that what you know
33412:48
335some of that's a question of timing some of it's a question of when was it
33612:54
337launched and what need did it did it fill the wiki News is an example of
33812:59
339something where I think it's both the product and the market fit honestly
34013:06
341there's a tremendous amount of news out there and a lot of its really good to
34213:11
343write in terms of editorial production publication everything else so we keep
34413:16
345making news and hurt into a pretty competitive
34613:18
347crowded space it's also very paywall space out there so but it didn't used to
34813:23
349be no but mom is I know it is but but I think the other thing about the other
35013:29
351thing about and Wikinews is I go back to a friend of mine who used to work with
35213:33
353us at the media foundation doing video production and he was I always say like
35413:37
355look production as a dictatorship because you have to have a vision for
35613:40
357what this actually looks like and I think within the media space you have to
35813:44
359have some sort of editorial perspective and so creating collaborative media is a
36013:49
361little bit tough because I don't have the ability to say hey I need you to go
36213:53
363out and cover cover this story I need you to go out and cover this town hall
36413:56
365meeting I need you to go out and cover you know this breaking crisis that's
36614:01
367happening instead we can use relies on people who are available who are
36814:05
369interested to show up and and that works for some things but it doesn't work as a
37014:09
371reliable source of information if you're looking for and this is my one-stop-shop
37214:14
373to be able to understand what's going on in the world today so I think and that's
37414:18
375not you know to impugn the folks who love wikinews and work on wiki news and
37614:22
377and I'm glad that you know that's out there and that exists 60 editors is it
37814:27
37960 yeah yeah I mean but there's 60 editors you really enjoy what they're
38014:33
381absolutely and again I mean paywalls weren't around when we can use had its
38214:37
383first problem really so I would love to see that
38414:40
385take foothold again wiki data why is that so great what happened there
38614:45
387wiki data is amazing it is so it is a little tough to talk about I think often
38814:50
389because it's so abstract so wiki data is a open link database that does
39014:58
391essentially concept modeling and relational modeling between ideas now if
39215:05
393you can unpack what that means when we describe a very clever crowd so we keep
39415:12
395data has 15 million items in it that's actually more than that at this point
39615:15
397and the those items all refer to some concept essentially so I think item one
39815:24
399is life item two is the universe item three is earth things like this and so
40015:30
401you can already start to see a nested relation
40215:32
403right item 42 is the hitchhike is Douglas Adams and and these these
40415:42
405different items have you're able to as I said it's linked to open data so you're
40615:46
407able to define relationships so you can say you know what is Sweden Sweden as a
40815:50
409country was a capital of Sweden a you know Stockholm what is the population of
41015:55
411Stockholm and all of these sort of things kind of nested relationships to
41215:57
413each other which is really cool when you start to think about how wiki data
41416:02
415starts to mirror the way that we do content modeling from from a just as
41616:07
417humanity so it is both very useful from a research perspective to be able to
41816:12
419understand complex concepts and how they relate to one another it's also really
42016:16
421useful from a computational science perspective in terms of being able to do
42216:20
423machine learning training as a data set that is an input into that from
42416:25
425Wikipedia's perspective the role of structured data on Wikipedia is really
42616:29
427important because it allows us to do more I mean for one thing more efficient
42816:33
429management of concepts so I talked about it's kind of language independent
43016:36
431language independent right and as we have 300 languages of some greater size
43216:40
433some of lesser size the ability to create but not just consistency but also
43416:45
435the ability to enable more efficient management of these concepts so
43616:50
437population of Stockholm changes small changes every day but but it also
43816:55
439changes once a year in in sort of the official numbers and in the past you
44016:59
441would have to update that 300 times across Wikipedia and now you can update
44217:02
443it once in wiki data and then it propagates out so it allows us to do
44417:07
445more efficient sort of management of structures it also allows us to start to
44617:11
447see within Wikipedia's ecosystem across these multilingual functions how do we
44817:17
449not only map something that is in Xhosa Wikipedia to something that's in Swedish
45017:21
451Wikipedia it to something that's in you know Spanish Wikipedia also it allows us
45217:26
453to say what how can we map this concept to Wiktionary how can we map this
45417:30
455concept to an image in Wikimedia Commons and start to really knit together a
45617:34
457knowledge ecosystem and it gets better because it's not just something that
45817:37
459applies to Wikimedia because any of these concept models they turns out
46017:41
461they're very useful outside of the Wikimedia ecosystem too we
46217:45
463if you want as a as another database manager to be able to point to what is a
46417:50
465reference point for they for example for the Mona Lisa well now you have that
46617:54
467item number that you can say you know in our database in our catalog in our
46817:58
469concept model we're going to rely on this wiki data item and that's going to
47018:01
471be our sort of fixed loci and I think that that starts to get really exciting
47218:05
473because it starts to allow us to to build at this this sort of concept
47418:10
475modeling framework that can be it's multilingual is interoperable it's
47618:14
477highly emergent it allows for all sorts of different applications and and
47818:20
479extensions well beyond the Wikimedia ecosystem it's kind of like an
48018:24
481infrastructure for knowledge in the world so I'm really excited about it
48218:31
483it's also an excellent blend of man and machine right and how we work together
48418:35
485yes will we see will we see wiki data take more of an
48618:39
487even more prominent place in the wiki media family going I think so I think so
48818:43
489in fact the reason I was a little bit late meeting you today is I just came
49018:46
491from meeting our colleagues that we can mediate which then to do all the
49218:50
493software development for wiki data and we were celebrating the fact that and
49418:53
495you know more than five years into this project we've what has been achieved and
49618:57
497our commitment over the course of the next few years going forward in terms of
49819:01
499that product and software roadmap for what we're going to build so in my mind
50019:06
501what what we see today when we think about Wikimedia ecosystem is you have
50219:10
503Wikipedia and then you have the 300 different language Wikipedia's and you
50419:13
505become media Commons I think the future of Wikimedia is a very integrated
50619:17
507seamless experience of knowledge that starts maybe at the abstraction layer of
50819:23
509this sort of concept modeling all the way to the human interface of being able
51019:29
511to read the article but you know different layers along the way that are
51219:32
513accessible with humans machines and like so that might also introduce a more
51419:37
515prominent single point of failure right so do you think govern or safeguard wiki
51619:43
517data in another way then you you safeguarding govern the ordinary
51819:48
519Wikipedia is there some other mechanism in place too so you sue in terms of
52019:54
521governance of the projects as a whole or governance of content
52219:58
523they would say yeah so if some well they're different communities so I was
52420:01
525talking about this with the gentleman one of the gentlemen who had the idea
52620:05
527for wiki data and what what Danny was saying was he was like look at wiki data
52820:10
529didn't it's not the Wikipedia community it tapped into a different community of
53020:16
531knowledge creators in curators knowledge aficionados I think that it into a
53220:27
533different type of community and so the governance of these communities is
53420:33
535actually quite different now when them they come together that is actually
53620:36
537interesting what happens when a Wikipedian edits wiki data you know from
53820:40
539from Wikipedia these are the sorts of questions that we're going to need to
54020:42
541get into but these can be managed two questions a version control I mean
54220:45
543there's all sorts of ways that we can start to handle these what I love about
54420:50
545Wikipedia is that every solution is very site-specific right so one of the things
54620:54
547that I find so beautiful about the Wikimedia ecosystem and why I think it's
54820:58
549been as successful as it has for so long is that it's completely open platform
55021:02
551which allows it to be a very emergent platform as new problems arise new
55221:07
553solution new solutions arise - and they're not centralized through the
55421:11
555Wikimedia Foundation wiki data wasn't created by the Wikimedia Foundation wiki
55621:16
557data was the project of a community member who was like I think this is a
55821:18
559really good idea we should go and run with this and who gathered enough
56021:22
561support and enough excitement and we went ahead and we launched and built it
56221:26
563so that happens at them sort of macro level but of a new Wikipedia media
56421:31
565project but it also happens at the micro level of saying you know how do we
56621:35
567resolve this this question of version control across two different projects
56821:39
569we'll find a solution for it it may not be fast but that is the that flexibility
57021:45
571and freedom to continuously build on this open platform allows us to
57221:49
573continuously solve for new problems as they arise which ideally allows us to
57421:53
575stay really current with the world as it continues to evolve there is something
57621:57
577inherently robust in the hold about something it's amazing
57822:00
579robust open participatory platforms and they tend to tend to be pretty
58022:04
581sustainable now to finish off I would really love if you could give some
58222:09
583advice I work a lot with public sector and and I tend to talk to a Swedish
58422:15
585municipality for instance and ask them to be more like Wikipedia unless like
58622:19
587Encyclopedia Britannica to try and and open up and be that enabler for everyone
58822:24
589who lives and has some kind of engagement in that geographic location
59022:29
591what advice could you give to them how could they move forward we could talk
59222:33
593leadership we could I mean you can give us one or two and then I gonna let you
59422:39
595go so one for me is that you build for people not for users and what do I mean
59622:49
597by that in every sort of tech environment you talk about what does the
59822:53
599user need what does the user need what does the user need well the user is a
60022:58
601construct the user is somebody who's already in your site and already knows
60223:03
603your workflows if we're talking about for example the public sector which is a
60423:08
605sector that's near and dear to my heart the then your your existing user may not
60623:14
607be the only user that you seek to serve right your existing user we have a
60823:20
609poster on the wall at Wikimedia that said the something it was a joke someone
61023:24
611had taken it from a marketing agency where it had been clearly a very cynical
61223:27
613thing and then we put it on our wall and it was very optimistic saying it was
61423:29
615like the addressable market and it had a picture of the globe zero and up and we
61623:34
617were like right in the context of an advertising agency it means one thing in
61823:42
619the context of a free knowledge for the world means something very different you
62023:44
621know I think that municipalities or so or you know the public sector or anybody
62223:48
623who's acting in the public interest needs to take a very similar approach
62423:51
625which is there is no sort of the mythical mean of a user there's any
62623:57
627number of use cases and if you're just building for a sort of single use case
62824:01
629you're actually building into a system a form of homogeneity you're actually
63024:06
631taking people who are at the margins of society and you're saying whatever your
63224:10
633use case is it's not valid in our context and what ends up happening is
63424:15
635particularly in you know where there are communities that are disenfranchised
63624:18
637that are not and perhaps on the web in the same way that have lost access to
63824:22
639resources they're going to stay looted from resources when you go ahead
64024:26
641and build I think the other thing that I would say is it is building with that
64224:31
643not for is you know it's it's not I'm not the first person to say this but in
64424:35
645Wikimedia you know we joke that we we move slow but we build things you know
64624:41
647we we spent a lot of time in consultation with our community know
64824:45
649that Facebook may they're confirmed or denied no of course it's a little motto
65024:49
651basic they I actually think I just came from as I said this lunch with Wikimedia
65224:53
653Deutschland and we were talking about and it's really important to have a
65424:56
655combination of true believers in fresh blood and it is so what I mean by that
65625:01
657is in the Wikipedia community you and you have people who are they come from
65825:06
659the community they're committed to the mission that is what they are here to do
66025:09
661they will probably spend the majority of their career working on this either in a
66225:13
663professional sense or volunteer sense and then you have people who love the
66425:17
665mission think it's really important and want to spend a tour of duty with us you
66625:21
667know two years three years and that combination that tension tends to be a
66825:24
669really healthy and productive one and together what what we try to do is we
67025:29
671try to build with not four which says we actually put out if we have an idea for
67225:34
673a new product we'll say your community this is the idea for new product what do
67425:37
675you think and once we've got enough information we'll say to your community
67625:40
677here's a wireframe what do you think and sometimes the things that we think are
67825:44
679really awesome really guys really beautifully designed up to standard the
68025:49
681community will come back and be like not helpful right and here's why it sound
68225:52
683helpful it breaks this workflow in this workflow and this workflow and actually
68425:55
685what I really need is you thought and getting rid of density was great because
68625:58
687it makes cleans up my screen actually density is what I need because I need to
68826:01
689go to aggregate a huge amount of information all these sorts of things
69026:04
691before we ever write a line of code I think that that is a really important
69226:09
693thing is you have to trust that you're you that you the people that you're
69426:12
695building with actually know as much about what you're building as anything
69626:16
697that you could possibly know and that is particularly true again in this sort of
69826:20
699idea of this mythical municipal entity or public service interest is we all
70026:26
701have the same stake in our societies the society that I wake up in as a society
70226:31
703that you wake up and you may be in a different role in it but we still have
70426:33
705the same interest the same stake the same commitment the same
70626:37
707if the outcomes are going to affect us in similar ways and so we should all be
70826:42
709treated as experts as we come into that into that conversation beautiful I was
71026:47
711gonna ask you about leadership as well but we're gonna take that the next time
71226:54
713thank you so much thank you and we done I'm sorry we could
71427:01
715have done like a minute or two on leadership really should we do that and
71627:04
717if it's good for you I mean I so thank you I'm gonna ask that you talk a little
71827:14
719bit about things that that you as a leadership might think are shiny objects
72027:19
721it might be a search engine or whatever right and the community says no we're
72227:23
723not gonna do that yeah so from what I've seen so far you seem to be managing the
72427:30
725leadership role in a phenomenal way but what is how do you do that in in an
72627:37
727organization that is part professional and part community with volunteers and
72827:42
729and I mean the organizational chart of
73027:47
731right could you give and I think there are there similarities to to someone
73227:53
733working in a leadership role in the public sector yeah yeah so what's your
73427:57
735advice well I like to say that I am responsible for everything and in charge
73628:02
737of nothing which which I don't mean there's a dereliction of duty what I
73828:09
739mean is that no one is going to take a direct line you know order from me
74028:14
741without very good reason and and you know those sorts of circumstances are so
74228:20
743extreme I can't have a hard time even conceptualizing of one but what it means
74428:25
745in my mind is that I show up and I expect other people to have very well
74628:31
747informed opinions on what it is that we should be doing I expect that I by no
74828:35
749means have the best ideas I expect that when are when we start in conversation
75028:41
751that the that whatever ideas I might have are going to be additive to what
75228:47
753other ideas that other folks might have and we may end up with totally different
75428:51
755and walking out of room then we walked into a room with if we understand that
75628:56
757we're coming to the problem with the same commitment to solve the problem and
75829:00
759I think that that's you know one of the beautiful things about working for a
76029:02
761mission-driven organization is everyone's there to you know with
76229:05
763commitment to solve the problem so I try you know I'm sure folks would say
76429:12
765sometimes I fail but I try to approach things with a sense of openness humility
76629:18
767and curiosity and remain accessible and open to and and seeking to learn all the
76829:27
769time from what is happening at sort of the edges or the our ecosystem the other
77029:32
771thing I will say is that I actually think it's really important to take
77229:35
773accountability in a leadership role so while I may not be in charge of anything
77429:40
775in sort of a traditional sense if something goes wrong that's my
77629:43
777responsibility if I've made a decision or if someone on my team has made a
77829:46
779decision that didn't work out the only person that that that is responsible of
78029:50
781that is me and so that that to me is really important I talk a lot in our
78229:56
783community and in the staff about if I can't make decisions you can't hold me
78430:01
785accountable like there has to be room to make decisions as well
78630:04
787as long as there is a robust accountability mechanism that says if
78830:08
789that decision was the wrong decision we're learning exactly what we're gonna
79030:13
791know who made the wrong decision it was me we're going to hold me accountable
79230:16
793for that decision and depending on on how bad a decision it was there will be
79430:21
795consequences for that and I think that you have to be really comfortable as a
79630:24
797leader if you're going to take on learnings of course all learnings
79830:27
799learnings absolutely but if you're going to take on the role of a leader in an
80030:33
801organization that has such a huge responsibility to its mission and to
80230:39
803society then then you have to be really comfortable the idea that you're just a
80430:44
805steward of that of that role for a period of time and you do your best job
80630:48
807in the time that you have there and you have to be really comfortable the idea
80830:52
809that at some point is no longer going to be your time and it might because you
81030:55
811made a mistake or might because the organization moved on without you but
81230:58
813being open to that and being ready for that I wake up every day and I go am I
81431:02
815still the best person to be in this role I look at the people around me and I go
81631:06
817you're gonna tell me right and and I think if you can wake up with that sort
81831:15
819of healthy understanding that you don't necessarily know anything more than
82031:19
821anybody else you just happen to be sitting in in that capacity at a moment
82231:23
823in time yeah that that that does a lot to keep sort of kidding it does a lot to
82431:29
825keep you grounded I think